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United Pilots To Use iPads For Navigation
bonch writes "Pilots of United and Continental will ditch flight manuals and charts in favor of 11,000 iPads containing the same data in app form. Replacing 38 pounds of paper materials, the iPads will run an app called Mobile FliteDeck from Jeppesen, a provider of software navigation tools. Alaska Airlines adopted iPads back in May. United estimates a savings of 326,000 gallons of fuel a year due to the lighter load."
United estimates a savings of 326,000 gallons of fuel a year due to the lighter load.
And how many gallons of fuel a year are used making all of those 11,000 iPads and shipping them from China?
Flight manuals and navigation charts from the AppStore? Because Apple doesn't allow in-app downloading of books from third party publishers.
If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Great, so now we can expect a Spinning Wing of Death when things go awry?
Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
The iPad is finally taking off.
org.slashdot.post.SignatureNotFoundException: ewg
I know you are trying to make a joke, but in-app downloading of books from third party is completely accepted. It is in-app purchase that causes a problem. You can buy the book on amazon.com and download it to the kindle app on ipad, you you just can buy it through the kindle app, or put the link in the kindle app. But you can have a bookmark in safari on the ipad and buy from amazon.com no problem.
Atlas stands on the earth and carries the celestial sphere on his shoulders.
Oh sure, that's fine as long as the plane has electricity, but what happens when it crashes on a desert island, and they only have 16 hours of battery life to repair the plane before the manuals become a really expensive paperweight.
http://www.xkcd.com/912/
So, I guess the use of personal electronics is OK after all?
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
Move to Europe -- that's how it's done over there.
Worked out real swell for Air France 447.
keep in mind that other than the LCD, most of that iPad is battery...
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
No they can't. Computer-controlled airplanes can't apply judgment, they can't make decisions. All they do is blindly follow preprogrammed routines, and the ones without human backup still crash with a regularity that would frighten the average person.
Computers may be better at precisely following an invisible airway, or maintaining speed, heading, and altitude to high precision for hours on end, but they really tend to suck at dealing with the unexpected.
The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
Thirty-two miles, begin your descent to...
Recalculating...
You know you can actually set up enterprise-only app deployment for internal applications, right?
Actually, looks like Air France 447 is mainly due to pilot error. Something about Europeans and ice screws them up completely. See Air France 447 and British Airways 38.
My father-in-law is an amateur pilot who recently explained the scale of this problem to me. It boggles the mind. He said that just in his once a month-or-so flights, he would make back the cost of the ipad over the course of a year, easily.
Every plane has to have the maps and approaches for every airport on their route. But it's more than that. They also need all of the maps for every airport near their route, in case they have to do an emergency landing.
There are a lot of little airports and lots of different approaches. The stack of charts for just the state of Ohio is at least a very thick binder. And, then if you want to fly a little farther on a trip, you get to buy all of those charts, too.
But that's now where it gets complicated. These charts are updated monthly. And the updates are distributed as a "diff" - just the ones that have changed. So you have to go through your binder and replace every single page that's different. And sometimes you find out it was just a temporary change, and it's already changed back.
It's really a big mess for an amateur pilot to take care of. The commercial airlines pay big money just to keep all of their charts in order every month... even though the vast majority of them are never even looked at by the pilots.
So, provided that the battery life is good enough, this is a huge weight/headache/cost reducer for the airlines.
The apps are nothing new. ForeFlight and WingX are the two main products for general aviation.
Mike
Those electronic approach plates aren't going to do anyone any good once the iPads are turned off and stowed for landing.
I definitely would not want to fly with any airline that uses Android tablets.
Say NO to mediocrity. Say NO to Android.
I'm in a college course for professional pilots, and iPad2s are required equipment, mainly (as it was explained to me) because of the charts.
I'm no great fan of the iPads, but it's smaller, lighter, and easier to use inside a cockpit. Sounds like a plan to me.
Sent from my CR-48
the are using a third party app from jeppesen. it works via subscription. thousands of professional apps have done this for years. you just can't subscribe from within the app or you have to pay apple 30%.
The navigational instruments have their own databases too. It's not like a plane will get lost or crash if an iPad doesn't turn on.
Fun fact, the Hudson landing was actually computer-assisted- he'd set it so the aircraft would help maintain speed so it wouldn't stall out and fall directly into the water.
But yeah, taking off and landing aren't exactly difficult operations anymore. Taking off? Set your TO/GA, line up, hit the button, and pitch up 10 degrees when the computer calls out the speed. Landing? Shit, ILS approaches are so easy six-year-olds can do them.
Sent from my CR-48
On the other hand there's the risk that you didn't get last months update, or the binder has two page 32's and no page 31. With 38 pounds of manuals to collate I'm sure some of them get messed up. My guess is the Ipad is more reliable.
The aircraft already has the critical information needed in it's Flight Management System ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_management_system ) which includes position locating systems (through GPS and/or radio triangulation) and a database of airports, runways, radio frequencies, waypoints, and much other information. As long as the FMS works, the charts are simply backup.
Most pilots will take a look at the approach plates in the charts, just because they are so nicely done and are more visually understandable, but they are not really necessary any more.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
Pilot: What's the procedure for a hot restart on a PW4062A at 10,000m?
... WTF? What's a mobi file and why can't my Kobo reader open it?
Co-Pilot: Wait a minute, I just have to find where I downloaded that manual
Pilot (grabs iPad): You idiot! Just get the ePub version and use iBooks!
Co-Pilot: Don't hold it that way it fucks up the antenna!
Pilot: That's the iPhone4 not the iPad
Co-Pilot: Oh yeah. Hey! where the hell are we?
Pilot: How the fuck should I know, this is the WiFi version with no fucking GPS!
If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
What happens when the ipad dies or doesn't turn on, and the crew *need* to get at that info?
True...almost all flights those books sit there doing nothing, but the *one* time you need them, you *need* them *right the *#$&@* now, and having your ipad be doa or fritz on you would be *A Very Bad Thing*. I'm sure you can save 38 pounds somewhere else on the plane.
You know, I'd bet that United probably didn't think of that at all.
It's crazy how often anonymous commenters come up with really important considerations that the pros overlook.
I did that already.
Except for the fact that these iPads are in no way connected to the plane's electronics? Are you a moron or what?
What happens when the ipad dies or doesn't turn on, and the crew *need* to get at that info?
True...almost all flights those books sit there doing nothing, but the *one* time you need them, you *need* them *right the *#$&@* now, and having your ipad be doa or fritz on you would be *A Very Bad Thing*. I'm sure you can save 38 pounds somewhere else on the plane.
You have two iPads (Captain and first officer). The chance of BOTH iPads failing to work at a critical junction are likely less than the chance the paper charts will get torn / ripped / tossed about the cabin in the event of something very bad happening.
These manuals are for routine work. The emergency checklists are still on paper. Laminated paper.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Flight manuals and navigation charts from the AppStore? Because Apple doesn't allow in-app downloading of books from third party publishers.
Conceptual error of "ebook" vs pdf.
I can and have downloaded individual charts in PDF format, for free, from about a zillion different online sites. Then load the PDF in cloudviewer, boot the gaming PC into xplane, and take off on a simulated flight... while holding full charts for my two airports.
I don't know how well that scales to a full subscription of all the worlds charts, probably poorly. But I'm guessing you're thinking of buying the charts in the Kindle App (not even possible, I think?).
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Do they have to power them off at take-off and landing? If not, why do they make us do that?
Does this mean they will all turn them off during takeoff and landing, or is an iPad actually sitting in the cockpit next to the radio stack and other sensitive navigation equipment not as worrysome as one at the back of the plane near the restrooms?
I could just see someone writing a computer virus that causes the planes to fly to Cuba.
Just about as likely as this sort of thing happening.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
I can imagine the announcement from the cockpit: "This is your captain speaking.We will be in a holding pattern for a little bit, while we deal with some minor technical issues. I expect we will be delayed about 1 hour into Chicago...By the way, does anybody on board have an iPad?"
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
please remind me to never fly with them. In my years of boycotting Apple this should be the easiest one to do. I would never trust or rely on a device that is hackable by a 12yr old for functions people might need to survive. what's next are they going to hook the controllers up to a Wii Mote? (a 6axis Sony controller would work better though )
They have porn on iDevices now??? Thought that was only an Android thing.
Oh Zing! Good one. You sure nailed me!
If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
The plane will definitely see some angry birds
Actually, looks like Air France 447 is mainly due to pilot error.
'Pilot error' in the sense that the computer ran into conditions it was unable to handle and dumped the problem back in the hands of the pilots, who -- surprisingly -- couldn't handle it either.
As with another airliner crash some years ago the aircraft seems to have been giving the pilots contradictory readings, and only someone well trained on how to deal with that was likely to be able to keep it in the air.
Actually, looks like Air France 447 is mainly due to pilot error. Something about Europeans and ice screws them up completely. See Air France 447 and British Airways 38.
It appears to be much more complicated than that.
tl;dr - Lots of bad things happening in a complicated plane that insists on keeping some level of control in a flight envelope that has minimal room for error and in situations that many pilots don't get adequate training for.
Yep, pilot error for sure.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Not so fast Mr. We-Don't-Need-No-Stinkin-Pilots.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Although I know you are just complaining about Apple's Walled Garden's policies, it is good to know a bit more about how they actually work.
For instance, corporations just have to register for an Apple Corporate Development program to be able to do anything they want with their iPads without jail-breaking. They can even wirelessly distribute apps to all the devices they have approved and create apps that don't need to conform with Apple's infamous approval rules. They don't have to worry about undocumented or proprietary APIs, and should they choose to, they can keep their pilots stocked with brand new pornography for every single flight! :)
When you post, a kitten dies! Anyways prime-douche boy, instead of killing kittens, you should go back to drooling on your mother's crotch.
Hope they remember to use Airplane Mode.
/* No Comment */
Sure, a computer will be able to fly from point A to point B with no problem. But what happens at the most critical moments, at take off and landing. A computer would not be able to handle the decisions that must be made at these moments. Also what happens when an air port shuts down for some reason.
Ill take my human pilot.
BA038 incident wasn't due to pilot error. Ice may have been involved, but that was ice within the FOHE and outside the pilots' control.
Mike
wait till text books are 'updated' in real time over 3G or WiFi to fit the current prevailing political views, Ã la Ministry of Truth...
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
I can imagine it now ...
No but it was Roll-Royce Engine which is built by guess who... EUROPEANS. Other two American Engines options on 777 did not suffer from this issue.
I wonder if someone is going to manufacture a tiny rectangular flight case to fit the iPads. How else are you supposed to know those things are for flight operations only if you don't have the rectangular, two latch, top fold case?!?!
Weight is overcome by thrust. The lighter the aircraft, the less thrust required to maintain a given speed. The less thrust you need for a given speed, the left fuel you burn.
Yes, 38 pounds makes a difference when you're talking about multiplying it over millions of flight hours per year.
The article mentions real time info and updates which means using 3g most likely, but wasn't United one of the loudest in declaring wifi and 3g use unsafe for passengers to use because supposedly it could potentially interfere with flight controls? Wouldn't having them in direct contact with those instruments and controls be a bit bigger issue or were they just lying to make more money off of those back of the headrest phones?
If 38 pounds makes that large a difference, perhaps they should be promoting weight loss plans for their pilots as well. It'd be a two-fer: lower fuel bills AND lower insurance costs.
I'd like to see the screen layout / menu structure to visualize how the pilot quickly accesses critical information during a flight emergency...
It's fun when you simply take on more debt. United owes 38 billion dollars, yet it absolutely MUST use iPads (and not some cheaper brand of tablet) to store its maps. Uh huh. Just issue more stock/bonds when you need more money, eh?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
But I'm guessing you're thinking of buying the charts in the Kindle App (not even possible, I think?).
Actually he's clearly thinking he is making a funny comment at Apples expense, nothing more.
This is a single app in the app store, and of course it downloads the charts directly from them based on your serial number (Same account used as on the computer version.)
More detailed info on this app is best gained from the people who make it.
http://www.jeppesen.com/apps/mobilefd/index.jsp
Apple does not prevent apps from downloading data.
The bullet point list of features for the app shows this is exactly what they do.
Right, because no one at the corporate level did a boneheaded mistake. Put all trust in bit companies or the government and see where that gets you.
And what does your username have to do with whether you make a valid point or now? Answer the question or add to the discussion. What should the Slashdot user ID cutoff be if a valid username should be required to make suggestion? 5 digit? 4 digit? Do tell.
Copilot, take the controls, I need to get a little... 'stick time'.
When I worked for one of the above-listed airlines I had pilots ask all the time "Hey, can I borrow one of your computers? I gotta check my e-mail." And we politely obliged. With an iPad they can check it pretty much whenever/wherever without ever having to walk out of the aircraft. Not only e-mail but schedule and assignment updates. Rather than have to "go to" the e-mail they can now get it without leaving the aircraft. Sometimes the dispatcher has some new routing info for them or weather. Sometimes the flight crews and flight attendants get moved around to different flights and it helps to know what to expect later on that day.
Also, those Jepp books need to be updated on a regular basis. Airports regularly change. And everyone in the airline has to be up to date with new revisions. With this I would imagine that they would get instant or nearly-instant updates without any extra work. The pilots get important chart updates, nobody has to worry about being out of compliance and they don't have to lug around a huge flight bag (the Jepp book is one of the big things they have to lug around!).
There is talk about cost. Every time that the pilot has to go track down information (e-mails, charts, weather, information) that is something that takes up time and can cause delays. Delays ARE money in the airline business. There is talk about reliability. Each pilot will have an iPad; I doubt that 2 iPads would go bad at the same time if that were to be an event. This isn't going to be wired into the aircraft itself doing any work, rather it's a chart to be viewed. Pilots can always lose their Jepp books or lose pages (also known as 'plates') since they are really thin paper.
I wonder if the aircraft maintenance logbook will go automated someday. Right now if something needs to be repaired on the plane the pilots get out a logbook, fill it out (often hard to read through 5 carbon copies), call the problem into the dispatcher. This would be a neat way to automate that process, get rid of paperwork and possibly expedite the repair process.
I've made exactly one ILS approach in my life (during my PP-ASEL training, my CFI was a little bored and had me try one while we were doing some hood time) and I would never suggest it is something so easy anyone can do it. Even in a C172 moving along at 60kts it was a hell of an exercise (especially since it wasn't briefed before hand). I would have made the runway, but it was an ugly assed approach.
Yes, I'm sure a six year old could be taught to do it. That doesn't make it easy.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
I also imagine the weight-savings are dwarfed by the advantage of speed in information retrieval
Only if whatever information they need "right now" is on one page. I've had similar experiences as others with e-books with regards to using them for reference. It tends to be on the border of "inconvenient" and "painful."
This is a common failing, and is not iPad specific.
by requiring everyone to fly naked.
you had me at #!
The old "everyone but me is an idiot" argument.
you had me at #!
They're too big to fail. Any time they can't make payroll, our tax dollars will bail them out, no questions asked. The executives who ask for the check will get multi-million dollar bonuses for "proactively meeting challenges."
The worst punishment large corporations face these days is that maybe, just maybe, they'll need to give themselves a new name,
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Didn't say we don't need pilots- I'm saying that almost all of the duties of the flight crew during a normal fight can be done as well or better by a computer- and most already are. However, autopilot just doesn't know what to do in an engine failure- it tries to keep the plane at the assigned altitude until it stalls out. We still need humans in the cockpit to handle sticky situations- but why not let the computer handle the mundane bits?
Besides, I'm going into piloting, and I'd like a job when I graduate.
Sent from my CR-48
If the airline uses Android tablets, that means the airline is not doing well financially, which means they're probably cutting back on safety and comfort as
From now on, I will only fly with airlines that value their pilots high enough to buy them iPads. I also would not want to have my money at a bank that isn't all marble, oak, and crystal chandeliers. Banks that can't afford luxury interiors might not have the resources to invest my money responsibly.
Also make sure the pilot smells like Gin, so you can be sure you are with someone who is sophisticated and enjoys life .
I don't really get why these companies all have to blindly use the iPad. Slate computers have been around for a long time there is no real reason for them to have waited until the iPad came out.
They also could have just bought all of HP's TouchPad inventory and probably gotten a much better deal.
Florian, is that you?
Well, it is thought that the tubes were iced and gave the computer confusing reading; when it may have dumped to the pilot. however, had it been a pilot, they would have known the instruments where incorrect and flown by stick until they could resolve the problem.
Of course, this is all educated guesswork. We really don't know what happened.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"they can't make decisions. All they do is blindly follow preprogrammed routines"
Of course the make decisions, decision based on the data they have, just like you and me. INlike you and me, they don't have emotional baggage.
The programming isn't follow to location x turn 22 degree go to location Y.
All kind of adjustment and changes are done based on new data.
"... but they really tend to suck at dealing with the unexpected."
as does every person.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"autopilot just doesn't know what to do in an engine failure- it tries to keep the plane at the assigned altitude until it stalls out"
false.
In fact, the deal with engine failure very often and very successful. So successful the people on board the plane never no there was a problem, and they do it a lot faster then the pilot.
In fact, there is strong opinion that the number of training hours used on engine failure be lower so there is time for systems training. SO the pilots know whats going on at any given moment, and understand the implications.
The last minute engine stall recovery by pilot really isn't applicable anymore.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"A computer would not be able to handle the decisions that must be made at these moments.
shut up SHUT THE FUCK UP. Yes, it does. The on board system handles take of and landing emergency better then pilots do.
Are all you people posting from 1995?
" Also what happens when an air port shuts down for some reason. "
WTF do you think would happen? how about "It locates the alternative airport'
Wow, that was fucking ahard, wan't it.
If you have flown in a commercial airliner in the last 10 years, it is extremely likely that the takeoff and landing was done by the onboard system, and not the pilots.
IN the event that the pilots where kiled in flight, and you somehow ended up in the pilot seat. do you know what the tower wuld tell you to do?
A) find this panel
B) punch in this code
C) Put your hands in your lap
D) keep your feet flat on the floor.
Get off after the plane comes to a complete stop.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The charts ARE a backup system. Navigation these days is done using the Flight Management System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_management_system
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
When I say "engine failure" I think less "Oh, the engine stalled. Let's boot it back up." and more "Oh crap, the engine just fell off."
Maybe that's changed, but I thought it tried to maintain altitude above all else.
Sent from my CR-48
If you have flown in a commercial airliner in the last 10 years, it is extremely likely that the takeoff and landing was done by the onboard system, and not the pilots>
Actually that's just 100% inaccurate. Even in a CAT IIIc ILS approach the captain or the first pilot has to command the plane to land via the flight instrumentation (either the yoke or the side stick depending on your plane) -- all the auto-pilot and auto-throttle do is line the plane up to the centerline of the runway and control the appropriate thrust for the engines (which, usually during descent, is baseline thrust -- the plane is essentially gliding during part the approach).
And there is no FAA allowance for an automated take-off. Rotation MUST be commanded by a human operator.
Your description of auto-pilot is so inaccurate it hurts my brain. Have you ever seen a commercial airline autopilot?
Cyber war gave us the stuxnet worm that was very selective and only activated when it could ruin gas centrifuges. The Ipad would make airlines vulnerable to a clever al qaeda hacker who makes a worm that activates when certain critical conditions were met (i.e. when a US airliner was over water, or during a critical landing maneuver). Are we conceited enough to think that USA and Israel are the only ones with master hackers?
Probably doesn't work in "Airplane Mode"
If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Actually I think navigational charts are distributed by "bump".
If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Not for nothing but... yeah, he basically got you on that one. I mean unless you were going for an audience reaction of "wtf? give my my 15 seconds back."
Don't be fooled by the upmods, bashing Apple is an automatic +3 these days. I'll randomly bash them in a reply to something else in this story and probably hit +4 Insightful.
What is the chance that the same software update will disable both of them?
The programming isn't follow to location x turn 22 degree go to location Y.
On the contrary, that's exactly what the programming is. I would know because I test these systems (computerized flight controls, avionics, etc.) for a living. You don't just hit a "go button".
We're a long, long way (as in decades) from an airplane that can do what you envision safely enough to carry passengers.
The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.