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Windows 8 To Natively Support ISO and VHD Mounting
MrSeb writes "With a masterful nail in the optical disc coffin, Microsoft has announced that its new operating system will natively mount ISO disc images. On the slightly more enterprisesque side of the equation, VHD files will also be supported by Windows 8. Both new features will be smoothly integrated into Windows 8 Explorer's ribbon menu, and mounting an ISO or VHD is as simple as double clicking the file. This is obviously an important addition with Windows 8 being available on tablets — and in a year or two, it wouldn't be surprising if all software is made available as an ISO on a USB drive which can be read by tablet and PC alike."
it wouldn't be surprising if all software is made available as an ISO on a USB drive which can be read by tablet and PC alike
I hate to say it, but I think Apple's "walled garden" formula is probably the one that's most likely to succeed--for tablets anyway. No loading software on USB drives (Apple's tablets don't even have USB ports), no mounting ISO's, no unapproved outside software. Everything is downloaded through the official app store. And Apple/Microsoft get their cut, of course.
Even more scary is the possibility that this could become the model for not just tablets, but also PC's in the future. About the only thing stopping this now is tradition and bandwidth limitations/download caps. The days of walking into Best Buy and buying a game or application and getting a physical copy of the software could well be numbered. Of course, Linux will still be there, but how many developers will devote resources to Linux development when Apple and MS can pretty much guarantee them a locked-down, piracy-free platform (even if they do take a cut of the action)? For that matter, how many hardware developers will be making locked-down PC's that won't even let you install Linux without some hardware hacking?
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
its new operating system will natively mount ISO disc images...mounting an ISO [...] is as simple as double clicking the file.[/quote]
Another popular desktop OS which shall remain nameless has been doing this since forever.
Yeah, well my Linux boxen have been doing that for ages. Windows is behind.
Mounting up an ISO by double-clicking has not been available on Windows? This has become second nature for me on Linux. I guess I just don't spend enough time with Windows. ;-)
Flexible bare-metal recovery for Linux/UNIX
Are they talking about
/media/iso -t iso9660 -o ro,loop=/dev/loop0
mount FILE.ISO
or is this something more advanced? If not, how is this news?
And if optical media would be obsolete, why would one want to continue using ISO files?
Might we be approaching the year of the Windows desktop!?
After a couple decades... Windows will do what i've been making windows do all along.
Yay?
PowerISO is usually one of the first things I install after a fresh installation of Windows. I'm glad that's one less piece of software I'll need to worry about.
On a related note, how long will it be before anti-piracy groups accuse Microsoft of facilitating piracy with ISO support???
I'm a little baffled Windows doesn't do this natively. I remember using Alcohol120 and what not back in the day, but I would have assumed image mounting would be in the OS already.
I know on the Mac you can create, manipulate, and use all sorts of images without any add ons.
Even more scary is the possibility that [requiring all applications to have been digitally signed by a device's manufacturer] could become the model for not just tablets, but also PC's in the future.
Then how would computer science education work? Would schools be able to afford $99 per platform per student per year "programmer's licenses", or would schools switch to a model preferred by E. W. Dijkstra in which all programming assignments are done on paper?
About the only thing stopping this now is tradition and bandwidth limitations/download caps.
Given the general failure to expand the single digit GB/mo cap for wireless (satellite and cellular) Internet access in the United States market, I don't see this happening as soon as some alarmists predict.
For that matter, how many hardware developers will be making locked-down PC's that won't even let you install Linux without some hardware hacking?
Given the general trend of opening up, from the BREW model (just slightly more open than a game console, must convince wireless carriers to carry the product) to the Xbox Live Indie Games/iPhone model ($99 per year plus 30% of sales, open to all adult developers in supported countries, approval rules are public) to the old Android model (locked bootloader, but "adb install" allowed and usually also "Unknown sources") to the new Android model promoted by HTC (unlocked bootloader), I don't see this happening as soon as some alarmists predict.
... or Microsoft ISOs?
Extend, embrace, extinguish.
I've had to use third party tools to do this for a VERY long time. You'd think they would've built this functionality into Vista/7, considering that OS X and pretty much every flavor of Linux have had this for nearly a decade now...
You know, I have to give Apple all these props (yes, my life is filled with iThings, but still), but once again they set the standard. Macs have been mounting ISO images and DMG files for the last decade - I was really surprised when Vista dropped without this basic native ability and even more so when it didn't make the cut for Windows 7. Sure, most PCs still ship with optical drives but it's been more convenient for years now to ship image files than .EXE installers or zip files in most cases. You'd think that Windows would have gained this ability before now.
As said earlier in this thread, the App Store model now will begin to take over for most packaged software and for Windows as well. Linux users have downloaded from repositories for the better part of 20 years (ever since the RPM). Mac users have downloaded DMG installers forever, and now have an App Store. Retail software distribution is going down the toilet.
The only wildcard is bandwidth capping - the carriers all want it, none of the users and none of the content providers want it. More and more things are going digital. Something's got to give, and within the next year or so we'll know which it is.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Hey, guess what that becomes in acronym form?
Yeah, they can play with their OS all they want, but the people who actually use their computers as something other than Office 20XX and "that thing that lets me browse the internet, you know, Facebook, Youtube and my email" will be sticking with 7 for what appears to be a long time in the future.
I wonder if they ever got around to fixing that hilarious lag spike in their TCP/IP stack caused by Windows' obsessive-compulsive network connectivity scans.
which has also been moved to the dumb fuck ribbon
VHD is natively supported already by Windows 7, although not with a nice interface in Windows Explorer, but via a less-nice interface in WMI
And that Microsoft could never pull off an Appstore like Apple did
So how exactly do Xbox Live Arcade and Xbox Live Indie Games fail?
it was a meek surrender on here without a whimper to some extremely strong and abusive DRM.
Look, I was and am a staunch fighter against DRM.
But that was mostly for media, because I wanted the ability to easily transfer files between devices. For music, Apple is the company that finally ended DRM. For that you should thank and support them, not curse them.
For video the matter is different, but note that when it is up to Apple - for instance in the case of the WWDC videos for developers - there is no DRM present on the media. So plainly Apple would just drop DRM video if they could, but content providers have not seen the light yet. In fact Apple just dropped a more advanced use of Video DRM - TV rentals.
Lastly we come down to applications, which is what you may be talking about. But here the DRM is a benefit to most people, because it ensures you have a signed application that you know has not been tampered with. It is about as un-restrictive as such a system could be - Apple mandates developers allow the application to be distributed across multiple devices, when some application developers would make you pay per-device if they could.
So in what way is what little DRM Apple uses "abusive"? Please give clear examples.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Agreed. I think slashdotters are unjustifiably elitist when it comes to guessing how many system builders, hardware enthusiasts, gamers, amateur programmers, CS students, and all-round geeks are out there, who are never going to accept a locked-down PC.
Apple have a monopoly over nothing more than their own platform, and are the easiest company luser customers to laugh at from a distance. It's nothing like how scary windows domination was back in the day, or have people forgotten?
Posting AC for going against group-think.
Basically because sometimes it's nice to be able to disseminate files in a read-only container with built-in checksumming support to detect corruption.
Windows has supported PKZIP-compatible "Compressed Folders" since at least Windows XP. And if ISO 9660 file system images are so "read-only", then how does packet writing work on an actual CD? The only true read-only container is a digitally signed one.
...of the power of 3rd party contributions to a platform: Daemon Tools, Magic ISO, Clone DVD, etc are all tools that perform ISO mounting quite well. Some are free solutions, some are not. Win 7 has ISO burning built in, but not mounting.
This has been supported natively since a long time. See http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/b/6/7b6abd84-7841-4978-96f5-bd58df02efa2/winxpvirtualcdcontrolpanel_21.exe
It just was not bundled, and actually the UI is crap. But it is supported.
and in a year or two, it wouldn't be surprising if all software is made available as an ISO on a USB drive
Why stop there? I plan on shipping my software by printing the ones and zeroes, faxing it to myself, scanning it in as a JPEG, and pasting that into a Word Document. Only once that's done I'll tarball the Word doc, encode it on an ISO filesystem, and finally write it to a FAT32 USB stick.
No comment.
Even more scary is the possibility that this could become the model for not just tablets, but also PC's in the future. About the only thing stopping this now is tradition and bandwidth limitations/download caps. The days of walking into Best Buy and buying a game or application and getting a physical copy of the software could well be numbered.
You say that like it was a bad thing.
The problem with your assertion tis this; what were you getting with the physical copy that was any different than you get via an online App Store like Steam?
I mean, almost any game that is in a store is ALREADY laden with protection. And frankly that protection is often much more odious than what you get via Steam.
The thing I am sad to lose is resale ability (really the ability to lend a game to a friend), but that lives on in consoles more strongly than in the PC world, and that model is even more locked down than the PC... so I don't see any DIFFERENT danger than what we have already in that regard.
However I am annoyed at losing resale value, the features Steam grants are worth it to consider games as very expensive rentals instead of purchases.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Yep.
As an aside- I spent days trying to get a firmware upgrading ISO to load in Linux via thumbdrive on a netbook and eventually gave up and bought an external USB DVD/CD combo drive. Sometimes it just isn't worth it. It is one thing if you are trying to install a Linux distro or do a live USB version of a distro, but another if you have a custom ISO. But, this is great news- something that Windows should have had long ago. Even though Virtual Clone Drive is free, so it really isn't that important.
Why would the programs be distributed as an ISO on a USB drive?
If thes oftware companies are willing to ship their software on USB drives, they can simply put the installer and all the required files directly on it, not requiring the user to mount an ISO first.
It'll probably support ISO 9660 file system images with Microsoft's "Joliet" extension that has been around since Windows 95 and which all major PC operating systems already read.
"Masterful"? That'd be like Ford waiting till 2012 to add a reverse gear to their transmissions? I don't think "masterful" is the word I'd pick. "slow cluestick" maybe.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
First new methods for copy and move, then a new file explorer with a 6" toolbar and now mount ISO images? Whoa! There is a company with innovation! Bards, book authors and bloggers will be singing Microsoft praises for such innovations in Windows 8!
Yawn. Now to go back straighten out my sock drawer.
... 3.5" floppy images - that's how old this idea is.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
Mac OS X and Linux have been able to do this for years and years. Its about time Micro$oft caught up.
Oh. Windows 7 supports ISO burning natively? Great. That's the most important feature that Windows haven't had. Now I can burn new Linux disc on that computer without downloading anything else. (after that I'll install it) :)
Although I've mostly moved to memory sticks as an install media. But Windows still requires DVD (possibly even two).
How it will happen when trying to mount an ISO or VHD with unsupported filesystems without suitable 3rd-party file system drivers installed, for example an ISO with HFS+/UFS or a VHD with any non-Microsoft partitions...
"an ISO on a USB drive which can be read by tablet and PC alike"
um... no, if it's shipped on a thumb drive it won't be as an ISO
You know, I have to give Linux all these props, but once again they set the standard only to have Apple copy them and claim innovation. Linux boxes have been mounting ISO images and other image files for well over a decade now.
The real litigious bastards...
Windows 7 already supports VHD creation and mounting.
It's buried in Computer Management, but there are 3rd party tools to make it easier (shell extensions).
If that were inadequate, some professor would create a development environment that suites his/her needs and distribute it for free in the app store.
Apple would probably just reject it, just as it had rejected some old Commodore 64 games two years ago because the emulator they ran in allowed the user to reset the emulated machine to the REPL of ROM BASIC.
And if that weren't good enough, you could do what my school did and have all homework assignments done on a server
Which would, in the alarmists' prediction, require a separate paid-up programmer's license per user account.
One of the first programs I always load up on Windows systems is a free utility from SlySoft that mounts ISO files as a virtual drive - http://www.slysoft.com/en/virtual-clonedrive.html
and a friend took a C++ class where he ssh'd into a department linux server.
In the alarmists' view: Good luck teaching a human interface design class if your students can't find a not-locked-down PC on which to run an X server.
"...and in a year or two, it wouldn't be surprising if all software is made available as an ISO on a USB drive which can be read by tablet and PC alike."
Or... you just put the software on the USB drive without wrapping it in an image of another filesystem.
"Yo dawg! We heard you like filesystems, so we put a filesystem in your filesystem."
wouldn't be surprising if all software is made available as an ISO on a USB drive which can be read by tablet and PC alike
Why not just put the files on the USB drive? :-|
(I appreciate that this line could have been a joke, but I can imagine people actually doing it...)
I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
When the CD was developed, did we slice files into 1.3MB pieces, put them on virtual 3.5'' floppy images, and then burn the images on the CD?
I see their next big push is to add security...
" it wouldn't be surprising if all software is made available as an ISO on a USB drive which can be read by tablet and PC alike."
.dmg support built into the system for, y'know creating, modifying, and working with disk images; but for what absurd reason does an install package downloaded from the internet, often only containing a couple of files, have to be a "disk image", which then has to be mounted?
What is the obsession with wrapping files in oddball formats that need to be 'mounted' when zip, or equivalents, are ubiquitous? The only reason to put up with ISO files is if you need to burn a CD, or need to placate some program whose DRM requires that it believe that a CD is present in order to run. What insanity would cause you to wrap your files in an ISO if you are just going to put them on a flash drive? If it needs to be a single file, just fucking zip it. If not, we have these cool things called "Directories" whose magic one can use to store multiple files without visual clutter.
Apple, for some inscrutable reason, has already gone down this road: I can understand the utility of having
I've been using Daemon Tools Lite, Cygwin with CDrecord or Power ISO for the better part of this decade now to get me what seems to have always been native under *NIX. It'll be nice to have such a feature, but just has useful it'll be in comparison to these other tools remains to be seen.
That's nice, but can it also image a CD to iso format, and snapshot disks and partitions as image files?
I remember back in the win95- win98 days it was possible to trick the OS to mount an ISO. You chose to connect to a network unit (or so) but instead of a network location you pointed to the ISO file and voilá! you had access to the contents of the image through the letter you assigned to. But this capability dissapeared with winXP for reasons unknown for me.
Why would anyone put an iso image on a usb stick? Seems silly to me. The usb stick has a filesystem, place the software there directly. No need to put a filesystem within a filesystem.
Of course, it is nice for windows users that they finally get support for iso files, but that is not a reason to make iso files a software distribution method?
Actually, Windows 7 can natively mount VHD files. Just do to "Disk Management" and there is a menu option.
and in a year or two, it wouldn't be surprising if all software is made available as an ISO on a USB drive which can be read by tablet and PC alike
I'm a little confused by this, why would software come as an ISO file on a USB drive when it could just come as the actual files on a usb drive?
A lot of Apple software downloads come as disk images, maybe this will catch on with windows but then ISOs aren't compressed and what's the advantage of that over a self contained executable installer?
This is a good point, and worthy of it's own discussion thread. Gubbermints threw a fit because MS dared to include a brower with their OS in the 90s but what Apple does with their walled garden is much more anti-competetive. Yet we haven't heard a peep from the Justice Department. Could it have anything to do with having a former Vice-President (Al Gore) on the board of directors?
Oh wait, you have to buy OSX and a Apple device (MacMini) in order to do this. That is hardly free.
I think AC's point is that anyone who owns a Mac can program for a Mac and test on a Mac.
and yes, I CAN write windows software under Linux or BSD.
So how do you test your Windows software under Linux or FreeBSD without installing a copy of Windows into VirtualBox? Or do you want your software to rely on Wine bugs?
support for mounting ext2, ext3, reiser, bfs, xfs, and whatever mac is using.
The larger / more popular MSDN downloads are nearly always in ISO format. So you are expected to download, burn, and install from CD every time. Much faster to use a virtual drive, though I usually just extract the ISO using 7-zip (or other tools before 7-zip was around). Of course, the solution is always use a virtual machine, but that's not always practical.
Cool Story time. My first successful crack was fixing the MSVC 6 installer so it would run off of the hard drive instead of a CD. Change a JNE to a NOP and it works. Thank goodness they don't do that - that's the last time I remember not being able to run it directly after extracting it.
Funny thing is, I usually back up the ISO in case it gets removed from MSDN, like Windows 95 and 98 did. So I RAR it up and use QuickPar for data integrity. Then burn it to a disc. I admit it's quirky.
BREW died because it was too closed, so it was mainly limited to USA only, at a time when majority of mobile development was happening outside usa. it had many points why it was superior to j2me - except that you could just throw .jar's on j2me phones from anywhere and you were up and running in less than an hour as a developer(j2me suffered though a LOT from hard to change security policies too, making fileconnection api for example totally useless in practical use along with couple of other api's, the other suffering was from lazily implemented jsr's on phones, like badly done sound api's etc, which is probably why android has that tuned down).
actually one can look at mobile phones a lot to see actual real world happenings with semi-open digital signing needed systems, one of the gripes of series60 after 3rd edition was the mandatory signing and the inability for users to turn it off(it wouldn't be so bad if the plugin,dll, model wasn't such that an app can't use lesser signed libraries, thus you need highest capabilities for simple things like an ogg vorbis ringtone plugin, but could do a background dialer with much less). many, many, many developers left the platform after that, despite the sales numbers soaring higher than ever - simply because they could no longer release their sw without a green light from nokia.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
No, it doesn't.
It's ridiculous it has taken this long, should have been in Win 95
Wasn't it stuff like this that got the anti-M$ crowd frothing about vendor lock-in and anti-competitive practices? Wasn't having to choose from multiple third-party sources for basic functionality once considered an advantage of Linux? How times have changed...
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
MSDN has, for over a decade, provided a free Virtual CD-ROM tool for mounting the ISO images that you download from MSDN. Virtual CD-ROM has always been just a developers-only tool; Microsoft never saw a need to make it into a product of its own because 1) nobody would spend money on it, and 2) there were plenty of 3rd party virtual CD-ROM mounters already out there.
Microsoft would get sued by everyone if they just provided everything integrated into windows, like a linux distribution. Windows 2000 has an iso mounter provided by MS, but they had to leave it.
This is going to be a feature in Fedora 16 (it already works in earlier versions of Fedora, we're just polishing it). More screenshots.
You can also mount and modify virtual machines securely (including Windows VMs and VHDs), using libguestfs and guestmount.
Rich.
libguestfs - tools for accessing and modifying virtual machine disk images
Even more scary is the possibility that [requiring all applications to have been digitally signed by a device's manufacturer] could become the model for not just tablets, but also PC's in the future.
jedidiah wrote:
The Mac isn't part of this discussion.
I beg to differ. What was meant by "also PC's in the future"?
"Personal" computers have always been directly programmable through assembler or basic or C.
The point is that alarmists think companies will stop making general-purpose personal computers for home use in favor of locked-down appliances.
what were you getting with the physical copy that was any different than you get via an online App Store like Steam?
In addition to what you mentioned, the ability to buy a 4 GB game without it eating 80% of a 5 GB per month Internet transfer cap.
Except that it does. That tool is more for if you want to install from USB, you can use an ISO or an actual disc, and make the USB mountable and whatnot. OR, if you were wanting to burn your Windows7.iso to a DVD while you are running WinXP, you don't need to go and download some ISO burning software.
why can't I play any Apple purchased music files (even recent ones) on my Windows machine outside of iTunes
That's not Apple's fault; that's the fault of VIA Licensing. If you download another licensed AAC player (e.g. Winamp) or a patent-infringing player (e.g. VLC media player), you can play AAC audio files. And what version of Windows are you using? I've been told that the version of Windows Media Player in Windows 7 Home Premium includes an AAC player.
So far I'm seeing that Windows 8 is going to have a lot of features that Linux has had for years. As a simple break down:
Portable Workspaces: You have always been able to move your workspace in Linux, using tar, gnuzip, bzip etc....
WinFS: A SQL based file system, http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/127055
Internet Explorer 10: Still going with there broken old browser, have yet to see IE actually work as well as Firefox or Chrome
Download Filter: Download Filter, How about securing the system first
Guest Mode: Linux has had this for years, as well as a no-buddy user
ISO Mounting: Linux has had the BEST mounting support of any file system hands down.
PDF Support: Linux has had this for years, gnome has had it, KDE has had it
Modern Windows Task Manager: We like to call this TOP, but I guess Microsoft will just rename it
The rest of the features just seem to be interface updates for graphics, it's really not needed,. So Windows 8 is looking like Windows 7 with updates that Linux users enjoy and updating the GUI. The only big problem is that lack of file system support, lets see Ext3 / Ext2 etc.... Can't wait to see the rest of the new features Windows is going to have.
You can put your own mp3's on your ipod with gtkpod.
Historically, third-party support for loading music onto iPod devices has lagged behind support in iTunes software. Which iPod models does gtkpod support? Does it work with, say, an iPod touch 4?
I sometimes find it surprising how ignorant people are of what Windows features already exist. Windows 7 can already mount VHDs:
It seems to be what's new is that there is a UI for this in the shell.
ISO mounting is new though. Granted Linux has been able to do this forever with mount -o loop...
http://xkcd.com/763/
So this is what innovation is to Microsoft? After sticking it to the US judicial system over the "freedom to innovate", they innovate a loop mount?
"Pismo Technic" has something they call a file audit package that lets you mount ISOs, zips, etc. Per their web page, it's been available for systems since win2k, and I've never had a problem with it when I needed to use it on Windows XP and above.
Just look at how quickly Apple's iPhone took off, with its walled-garden app store. And then Android came along, with the exact same concept, and it's been doing great too.
Unlike iPhone, Android phones don't lock out applications obtained outside the Market. AT&T used to hide the "Unknown sources" checkbox until earlier this year when popular demand for Amazon Appstore forced AT&T to either reconsider or lose customers at contract renewal. But even AT&T phones still supported and continue to support adb install.
Those with short memories might forget that "Virtual CD-ROM Control Panel" was a free PowerToy that Microsoft released for WinXP. It got retired, and now a decade after its initial release, it's getting included into Win8. This is progress?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_CD-ROM_Control_Panel
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
in a year or two, it wouldn't be surprising if all software is made available as an ISO on a USB drive
Why have ISOs on a USB drive? If you need to boot to install something (such as an OS) you'd boot straight from the drive. For anything else I think "in a year or two" it'll look pretty much like it does today -- app stores and package managers. What will change is that less and less software will be sold in stores.
Contracts and Business Interests will prevent that kind of harangue in the server market, and it *should* continue to be possible for average people to buy server hardware and run linux. Just be prepared to shell out more, since that means we would be forced to pay a premium for the extra "feature" of choosing our own hardware/software combinations.
HURR DURR, FREEDUMB AIN'T FREE HURF DEE DURF DEE DERF!!!1one
You missed the part where AFTER:
Music owners start selling non-DRM'd tracks outside of the iTMS.
Came the followup item:
Nobody buys from the competitors
Even now that is mostly true, most tracks sold are from iTunes.
It was only at that point that Apple had the leverage to convince the studios to let go of DRM in music, in exchange for which Apple let them have some pricing variance.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
In my opinion, a more interesting development would be being able to boot from a disk image, thereby diminishing the need to image systems at all. Just copy a single disk image file to the hard drive, have the boot-loader be complex enough to read the image, and boot from it. I'm sure there'd be some performance loss, but it'd make lots of things easier if things could be that simple.
Sometime in 2013 (2012 on the Microsoft calendar)
iPad user: so tell me about these new Windows 8 tablets.
Microsoft Store salesperson: We didn't leave anything out! We're the only ones who consider a tablet to be a Full PC. So, for example, instead of just tapping a button on your iPad to install a pre-audited, virus-free, self-updating app onto all of your devices at once, you can install unaudited, virus-laden Windows apps by inserting a USB key into the side of Windows 8 Tablet PC, navigating to the icon that represents the USB key in your device tree, identify and mount the ISO disk image, close all other applications, identify and run the setup application, follow the 8-9 step install process, type in your 32 character hexadecimal license key, type in your personal information, authorize with the server (this may take a few minutes), reboot your device (this may take a few minutes). To update your software, navigate to the developer's website, download an updated ISO disk image, copy it to your USB key, and repeat the above installation process! It's the full PC Xperience!
You could jailbreak an iPad2 at least since July...
You Apple Haters sure are cute willful inability to even Google! It's like watching a little yappy dog bark furiously at a doberman.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That also is not DRM. That is more a matter of device configuration than DRM. It is not about protection on files... it's only about the channel used to get the files on your device.
And you can use any number of applications that let you simply play MP3 files you transfer into the application. Perhaps next time you should look around for alternatives before you complain.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It is NOT OK if "Apple does it".
DRM is not OK, unless it serves a role for the USER greater than that of the content provider. Application DRM does serve a need for the average user to obtain applications that are known to be untampered, and is not restrictive enough to even be noticed by most people.
That is the yardstick to use regardless of company. I fully support WP7 application signing for the same reason.
Music (and video) DRM is pure evil because it does NOTHING for the user except prevent them from doing something they want to do. Otherwise it holds no value for them whatsoever.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
better late than never i guess; the babysteps of progress. Who knows, maybe some day Windows will be able to recognize more than 3 filesystems?
Good people go to bed earlier.
I'm a software developer. DRM DOES NOT prevent someone from tampering with the software. DRM DOES NOT prevent viruses on your platform.
Microsoft Windows does not have DRM restrictions like the portable sector (iPhone, iPad, etc. etc.), yet, it is perfectly reasonable to verify that you download software that has not been tampered with. There are things like, you know, MD5 and SHA1 hash of installers? Heck, you can crypto sign installers for what, the last decade??? And windows will display to who has signed that file (installer). Same thing for Linux. Same thing for OS X.
How is Apple's DRM abusive (for mobile market)? Well, I guess it is not if you are willing to pay Apple tax to develop for Apple devices *and* pay them a 30% cut off of the price so you can install it. Furthermore, you cannot distribute your app to just one or two people, Apple has to "approve it" for the "masses". It basically makes any custom development pointless for iPad. Android devices at least allow application to be installed from any source, be it Google's Android store or from your developer's "specialty store".
Finally, "jail breaking" is a clear example of how insecure these devices really are! You have your facade of "control" and "walled garden", but all you have to do is go to a website or open a PDF file to get rooted.
So against whom is the DRM? It is against *you*, you fool! Apple wants a cut off of every app and gadget you ever install on their device, ever. Jail breaking shows how insecure these devices are. But DRM prevents you from sidestepping the Apple tax.
BTW, congrats on you being indoctrinated into Apple safety myth.
drm inbuilt in win vista and 7 also serves the user. it is part of the reason why i can watch a blue ray on my pc but not on a mac. have you heard anybody say this drm is good?? nope. have you ever said so?? i doubt it.
me, i don't like drm anywhere, and the most drm or drm-like laden devices are made by apple. drm is the reason i will never buy a blue ray disk or drive, or any idevice.
Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
It seems that Windows 8 will feature support for important functions that a user has to install a third party application for. Read more - http://alldailyupdatesandnews.blogspot.com/2011/08/windows-8-native-support-for-iso-images.html
It's about fucking time. That's all I can say. After shuffling disk images without thinking much about it in OS X for 5 years, and on Linux for almost 15 years, it's always a letdown when I have to install 3rd party tools to do just that on Windows and deal with occasional hiccups and system hangs.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Windows 7 does VHD out of the box. All you have to do is dig around in the disk management snap-in. It would have been nice to have iso as well since it seems to be the more universally used file format. (Correct me if I'm wrong and forgive my ignorance.) The source article cited above mentions that one cannot create VHD files. It would be a shame if Microsoft removed that functionality.
Why would anyone distribute software in an ISO image on a USB stick rather than just putting it on the USB stick?
The leaked builds of Win8 have had all this for a while now. I think I used one of them in April or May. ISO mounting, I did use. But couldn't find the promised PDF reader. Here's something I wrote way back in April: https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150178055628121 Plenty of blogs reported this then.
It would be possible to teach a CS course using older hardware and Linux (eg: something easy like Ubuntu).
Provided that desktop or laptop PC hardware capable of running Ubuntu continues to be affordable, or that used hardware continues to be in good working order.
Steam essentially does it right now. Growing in popularity. Will be awhile before it totally takes over, though I am not sure it will totally eliminate physical media.
I suspect more will jump on this band wagon, and we will see more of this in the future.
However considering Windows and MS turn around for new versions (apart from XP, very often) this move makes total sense. It will be a few years yet before that method will really take over. In the interim allowing ISO functionality in Win8 will let them expand now into tablets. In 3 years when Windows 9 comes out, maybe they won't need it as much, and when X Windows (sorry had to) comes out they can get rid of it.
MS is big on copyright infringement, and this would be a great way to know when someone has ripped a cd/dvd they should not have.....I will stay clear of windows8!!!
All other major operating systems (and most of the minor ones) have been able to mount disc images for at least a decade.
I can't wait what other innovations they will have in this... on second thought, I really couldn't care less. Windows 8 is as important as a sack of rice falling over in China.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
DRM is about managing protection on files, not about policy in regards to pricing or what will be allowed in an app store.
These are just the tip of the rejections.
Boo Hoo. That is not about DRM which is the topic under discussion in this thread.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I've seen for a while now how optical media is dying. For years we've had double-layer drives in our machines (another feature for the salesman to pitch) but the price of double-layer discs has always been kept artificially high. So high, that no-one reaIly uses that function. In a store near me I can buy 25 DVD-Rs for €15, or 5 double-layer DVD-Rs for €30. Clearly, a last gasp attempt by big media to stave off DVD movie copying. But at least I can still do that. Physical copies are always better than the cloud and walled garden approved software but try telling that to someone who only sees in "new shiny-vision" and treats hardware releases like new season fashion collections.
I had a massive rant one night at a party at a developer from an Irish 'app' (totally totally hate that term but anyway) studio who kept gushing on and on about Apple's App Store. I swear, I wanted to punch him.
Only a moron would go into business with Apple, who control everything that goes through their store like the Stasi approving your grocery shopping. Their business rates are completely locked in and totally uncompetitive but guys like him are in a trance because they think they're in some kind of special club.
Bollox. It's a cult. Call the Germans and tell them to shut it down.
Well I know most Slashdotters know this already. The thing is, while walled gardens have been around for a long time (ISPs are notorious for using them), Apple's Sith Empire-like success has legitimised the practice in the eyes of many businesses and politicians. It's an extension of the evil safety culture that wants us to remain indoors, and keep shopping.
Support free, open software and look into buying a DVD pressing machine.
Because it's still 1985, good lord how long has Linux had that I can't even remember. How about some good shell tools, and uhhh...a good shell, then move on to whiz bang aero effects.
If they ended DRM why can't I play any Apple purchased music files (even recent ones) on my Windows machine outside of iTunes, or DLNA to my Android?
Because Android doesn't support AAC?
I'm not sure why that would not work, but it should - the media files you download are not protected. I know for instance they will work in a Zune...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Didn't we see a huge backlash from security and AV vendors when Microsoft wanted to put anti-virus into Windows? Time for MagicISO and Alcohol 120% to take their turn.
I'm excited about finally having ISO mounting become native rather than via an app. The part I don't get though, is the portion of the announcement that said "On the slightly more enterprisesque side of the equation, Virtual Hard Disk (VHD) files will also be supported." The second sentence hints that it'll be as EASY as it will be with ISOs...because Win7 already DOES support VHD's natively in Disk Management, under More Actions->Create VHD and Attach VHD. So I guess the only thing really remaining would be making it doable via context menu on the vhd file itself I suppose.
That may be true when it comes to computers but certainly not smartphones and tablets.
They did this to protect their relevance in the market place, not to give the customer a good deal.
I never said WHY they did it. Frankly, to anyone with half a brain dropping DRM from media is obviously self-serving for anyone shipping consumer electronics - simpler is cheaper.
That's why it mystifies me that anyone would believe Jobs never wanted to get rid of DRM.
But again, regardless of reason Apple is still the company that developed the leverage and then took advantage of it to FORCE the media companies to drop DRM. I don't care WHY they did it, I'm just glad they did and thus they should be thanked and recognized for a valuable service to the world.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I thought Windows 7/Vista already had VHD mounting... maybe not a simple double-click, but it had the capability.
One can be "convicted" in a civil trial if "conviction" is used not in the legalese sense, which is restricted to criminal trials, but in the broader colloquial sense, which refers to any defendant's loss in any trial. Is there a more acceptable English word that means "found guilty and/or liable"?
Stick a fork in the iOS, because they're toast.
Sooner or later, you'll be running under the iPad/Xbox model.
But... Virtualization at the client will give you multiple sandboxes. Including your "I trust it myself, stupidly or not" container.
Welcome to the desert of the real...
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Windows 7 can, yeah - except FairPlay encumbered files. In fact, it will even import your iTunes library.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Excellent. Keep adding buttons. Soon your stupid OS won't even fit on a tablet. Finally everyone will realise that you have no idea how to create an organised interface and leave Windows forever.
That product was actually created by Elaborate Bytes way back in the day. Credit where credit is due.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
So, I guess I can go to itunes.com, pay on-line and download DRM-free music files to whatever device I'm using at my leisure?
Sort of. You can buy music using any computer, or any iOS device.
No? What's that you say, I must be running a copy of a specific piece of software on my machine
This is where you went off the rails and into space
You do not need a "specific piece of software" to play AAC files. I can play them on a Zune...
logged in to Apple's on-line service before I can buy anything?
No, you need an iTunes account to buy, just like about every other online retailer on the planet.
And it will remain perpetually linked to my account
Only in the sense the file contains your account ID embedded.
which I will always need itunes to access?
No, again, any device that plays AAC.
And they price discriminate by detecting your region?
And by THEY you mean the music labels, right since they are the ones demanding that?
Sound like DRM to me.
Frankly, that's because you are an idiot. Or quite ignorant by choice, which is probably worse.
If even half the things you said were true I'd hate Apple too. But since pretty much nothing is, nor has been for years, well then...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
And yet Apple persistently battles users who dare to jailbreak.
Actually, they do the opposite.
Jailbreaks themselves they only shut down opening for if there's a security hole that could be activated from the outside. That's what Apple SHOULD be doing, closing down remote holes in the system. Would you seriously argue otherwise, that they leave security breaches exposed that external attackers could use?
Local holes? Not so much battle there. Apple usually leaves alone holes that allow tethered jailbreaking. In fact Apple uses Jailbreakers as kind a secret lab to see where other people might take the system, the ultimate proof of this is that Apple hired the guy whole did the best Jailbreak enhancement for notifications to write the iOS5 notification system. You don't hire the guy you are "battling".
Please stop acting as if Apple is somehow being nice or acting respectably in this matter.
Oops! Seems like given the actual facts at hand you have some apologizing to do! I'm waiting.
But you're SuperKendall, the resident Apple Cultist
You misspelled "Expert".
You should learn to understand than when you argue technical points with people who know a lot more than you do on a subject, you end up not only wrong but looking rather foolish in the process.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
drm inbuilt in win vista and 7 also serves the user
No it does NOT serve the user. It makes it possible to unlock a BluRay disc, but fundamentally the whole REASON you have that disc in is to play a movie - does the DRM do anything to help you play a movie that would not be possible if the media war un-protected? NO it does not.
With an application what the DRM is doing for you is ensuring the application is really from the trusted source you thought you got it from. It serves a very real purpose in that case of helping average users to reduce security issues when using applications.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Users cannot install software on a device that they own without giving Apple a 30% cut
You just pointed out Jailbreaking exists. Obviously users CAN install software on the device without a 30% cut going to Apple, millions do every day.
Most notably, the App Store disallows any app with the current version of the GPL
What's stopping you for dual-licencing the source to build an App Store version?
GPL is a very grey area currently, it's not clear you cannot use that for App Store apps. Generally the apps taken down have been at the request of the app owners, not Apple...
Read this for a balanced discussion.
But outside of that, obviously Cydia is a very popular and viable distribution channel.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
DRM DOES NOT prevent someone from tampering with the software.
No, but the checksum built into the app protection would then disallow the system from running it via the checksum mechanism you discussed.
Furthermore, you cannot distribute your app to just one or two people,
Sure you can, it's called an ad-hoc build.
It basically makes any custom development pointless for iPad.
Either do ad-hoc builds, develop for the app store, or develop for Cydia if the App Store really bothers you so much.
Finally, "jail breaking" is a clear example of how insecure these devices really are!
Correct, when attacked locally. Successful remote attacks are much more rare, which is why generally you have to use a tethered jailbreak.
So against whom is the DRM? It is against *you*, you fool!
Now is where you get to explain how it harms me. I see no limit to the applications I can run. I can have multiple devices and run apps across all of them. To the average user the application DRM has no impact, and provides a certain level of security that non-technical users really need as history has borne out time and again.
BTW, congrats on you being indoctrinated into Apple safety myth.
I have never claimed any device is 100% secure. I know better; I write software for a living.
What I will claim is that for the non-technical user the iPhone is FAR more secure than Android, in all sorts of ways.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It makes it possible to install apps from apstore,
The DRM has nothing to do with that.
fundamentally the whole REASON you have the appstore in is to install apps
no, it is to USE applications in a secure manner.
It's people like you that fucked over normal computer users for numerous decades. Thank gad we are moving past your narrow-minded definition of computing and on to something far vaster, and more useful for humanity rather than your own person kingdom.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I've been enjoying this feature for years. This is why I'm happy that Windows users can start using it too. However, perhaps maybe it's little too late?
1. VHD mounting is already supported in Windows 7 (look under disk management)
2. ISO is old hat as a data format. We should be looking forward to formats supporting compression, like CSO
Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
The "write on a development machine, then stage to the device" model really isn't new.
Various "death of the PC" scenarios involve it becoming difficult for developers working at home to buy a development machine or to buy the privilege to stage to the device.
it's been more convenient for years now to ship image files than .EXE installers or zip files in most cases
Anonymous Coward wrote:
It's actually fairly routine for Windows/Mac software to ship on a single disc.
On a single disc, yes. On a single downloaded ISO image, not necessarily. People on slow or capped Internet connections don't want to be forced to download software for a computer that they don't have in order to obtain software for a computer that they do have.
Native mounting of ISO and other disk images...
Linux - since as long as i can remember
OSX - since the first version (not sure if os9 could do it)
Windows - coming soon, in a paid for upgrade
Always years behind everyone else for the most basic of features.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
So how do you test your Windows software [...] without installing a copy of Windows into VirtualBox? Or do you want your software to rely on Wine bugs?
http://www.winehq.org/
Please allow me to explain in more detail: There are still differences in behavior between Windows and Wine. If you test your program exclusively on Wine, you'll unintentionally make your program rely on at least one of these differences, and you'll likely end up with odd bugs when you run the program on Windows.