HTC Considering Buying Own OS

An anonymous reader writes "HTC Corp chairwoman Cher Wang announced that the company is interested in buying an operating system. From the article: 'After the global PC heavyweight Hewlett-Packard Co. (HP) announced on Aug. 18 a plan to spin off its PC business and stop sales of its TouchPad tablet that uses the WebOS operating system, a slew of manufacturers like HTC and Samsung reportedly have been trying to acquire the WebOS platform to expand their mobile market reach. 'We have given it thought and we have discussed it internally, but we will not do it on impulse,' Wang said in an interview with the Economic Observer of China.'"

Comments

Out of their minds?

[Ezel]

So they don't realize that they have their position in the cellphone-market BECAUSE they use Android insted of IN SPITE of it?

Re:Out of their minds?

[gtirloni]

An edge in the mobile space is achieved through: 1) a good design and 2) apps They can differentiate themselves in those 2 areas with Android just fine.

Re:Out of their minds?

[grantek]

That may be the case, but it is what it is. You don't have nVidia commissioning games that only work on their hardware, or to use a car analogy, you don't have manufacturers coming up with their own weird basic control UIs, and that's generally a good thing for the end users.

Re:Out of their minds?

[alen]

android is not open. the source code to the upcoming version is locked up by google. making devices on older versions means the geeks don't want them and it's a race to the bottom of me too phones.

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

Yes, but you can't measure "good UI" in an Excel diagram, thus that's outside the thought space of CEOs.

Re:Out of their minds?

[slack_justyb]

FTA:

expand their mobile market reach.

Reads as: "So no one else has this option."

The only reason anyone would want to have this, is simply so no one else would have it. I know it sounds pretty crazy but if a company has the rights to WebOS, then who knows what might happen?! In reality, WebOS may just be a yawn and no one really wants it for an actual project, but then again the companies in question don't know that for sure, so why not get a piece of the action while the getting is good? That way if it does become something big they're on the bandwagon, and if it doesn't they got in early while the price was low.

In the end, the whole thing comes down to fear of a dark horse, rising up and stabbing the competition in the back. Really, does anyone think WebOS has that ability to topple HTC and Samsung's Android phones (with at least a 50% or better chance)? Most likely this is just a move to keep others from making a move, which is common in the cell phone market.

Re:Out of their minds?

[neokushan]

HTC has access to the Honeycomb source code, just like many other manufacturers, meaning it's a non-issue for them.
Just because it's not on the AOSP doesn't mean that vendors don't have it.

Unless you're specifically referring to Ice Cream Sandwich, in which case this is no different to ANY other version of Android, whereby a select group got access first, then everyone else. Besides, HTC has done a lot (more than most) to differentiate themselves from other Manufacturers, with Sense.

What I think most people miss is that HTC don't just make Android phone. They also make Windows Phones and (for some reason known only to them) Brew phones. What's the big deal with having another OS they can peddle, something that they can make entirely theirs? Samsung has Bada, yet they're still doing pretty well with Android, so it can be done.

Re:Out of their minds?

[MightyYar]

or to use a car analogy, you don't have manufacturers coming up with their own weird basic control UIs

You certainly did in the early days!

We're only a few years in to the finger touchscreen smartphone. I don't think that anyone would claim that WebOS, iOS, Windows, or Android has the touch interface perfected just yet.

Re:Out of their minds?

[somersault]

When I was using HTCs, it was with Windows Mobile. They had their position before Android. HTC makes great hardware. I'd argue that using Android would benefit them, but what if they pulled a RIM and include a compatibility layer? Then you have the best of everything.

Re:Out of their minds?

[dcavanaugh]

If your approach to the competition requires a different/better operating system than they have, it's an uphill battle to hit critical mass with apps and THEN try and persuade customers that your OS is so superior they should abandon the "safe bets" of IOS and Android.

There is a great reward for introducing an exclusive, nifty OS that gets the job done and is loved by everyone. Problem is, most who try this approach will see their product end up on the "island of misfit toys".

Re:Out of their minds?

[drinkypoo]

HTC makes great hardware.

HTC has made plenty of noob mistakes, like Raphael's keyboard connector which pulls out when the keyboard slides out a bunch of times.

Re:Out of their minds?

[RoccamOccam]

Wouldn't having their own ecosystem allow them to draw ongoing profits from app sales, which they can't get now? Or do the individual Android manufacturers already get a sizable chunk of those sales?

Re:Out of their minds?

[scottbomb]

Exactly. People aren't interested in another OS. The problem with multiple OSs in the smartphone market is the same as it was in the PC market of the 1980 when developers wrote software for Commodore, Apple, MS-DOS, CP/M, Atari, TRS-80, TI, etc. If the developers don't see a big enough market to go out of their way to write for your obscure OS, then forget it - no software for you.

Re:Out of their minds?

[dcavanaugh]

I can see the benefit of a backup plan in case Google gets petulant. For most of the industry, the backup plan is Windows Mobile.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Lundse]

You know, this seems like the standard corporate-bashing, 'you're not an IT-guy like me, you'll never 'get it', knee-jerk response...

But seeing how most companies behave, it seem about right (apart from Apple and Google, who do seem to put UI design on the agenda).

Re:Out of their minds?

[Andy Dodd]

Using Android IS benefiting them.

Trying to have a "me too" OS at this point without major backers beyond themselves would be an epic failure.

Look at how well Samsung Bada is doing... Or to be more specific, NOT doing. Android is consisting of an increasingly large percentage of Samsung's mobile market share.

Unless Google completely screws up the Motorola situations, I don't see Samsung or HTC dropping Android any time soon. It would leave a product vacuum (non-Moto Android phones) that new players would swoop into - consumers want Android or iOS, not a smalltime player in the mobile market with little developer support - HP's failure with WebOS is a clear example of that.

Re:Out of their minds?

[supremebob]

No offense against Google, but HTC is the only cell phone provider that's developed a UI for Android that's actually an improvement over the stock platform. Both Samsung's TouchWiz and Motorola's MotoBlur UI changes just make the Android phones they run under phone slower and flakier.

If any cell phone provided can make WebOS a serious contender, it's HTC.

Re:Out of their minds?

[damaki]

Damn true.
Yeah, let's make another OS with no app. You know, the apps, the thing that nowadays make smartphones popular.
I really can't understand HTC strategy, even their lineup strategy. They talk about differentiation while most of their phones look the same, have similar specs and similar prices. HTC Sensation? Just like the HTC Desire HD... I am no Apple fan, but Apple's lineup, using old models as a cheap alternative make much more sense than throwing money at new models while retailers can't sell the old ones fast enough.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Archangel Michael]

Yes you can. This is what Microsoft does with its UI studies.

Okay, bad example. (Yes, I'm dreading Win8)

Re:Out of their minds?

[Archangel Michael]

Most SmartPhone OSes are .."Good Enough" at this point. Microsoft has been riding that train forever.

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

You know, this seems like the standard corporate-bashing, 'you're not an IT-guy like me, you'll never 'get it', knee-jerk response...

Oh, but most IT-guys don't get it either. Computing has become mainstream, and it's hard to give up old thinking constructs (like more features being better unconditionally).

Re:Out of their minds?

[bhcompy]

Exactly. HTC built themselves on WinMo, and they sold great phones for it(8525 and such). They migrated to Android and have been doing well, but they're also ramping up their WP7 phones as well(2 new Mango phones for them coming out this month, iirc). HTC does what it needs to do to maintain share. Android won't be relevant forever, just like WM wasn't, so these types of moves will happen.

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

Are you referring to Mojave, where Microsoft proved that Vista is much better than XP? :)

I'm sure those studies help a lot.

Re:Out of their minds?

[GameboyRMH]

Oh, but most IT-guys don't get it either. Computing has become mainstream, and it's hard to give up old thinking constructs (like more features being better unconditionally).

Yeah that just doesn't compute. I don't think I'll ever get it.

With a physical object it would be understandable, if more features were always better everything would be a ridiculous contraption like Homer's dream car - and a "jack of all trades but master of none."

But with computers we can get all the upsides of more features with none of the downsides (at least in software), so it makes no sense. It's like putting less books in a library if you had practically unlimited space and low fetch time.

Re:Out of their minds?

[MightyYar]

Microsoft has been riding that train forever.

MS is actually a bit late to the finger touch screen game. They have done the stylus thing for years, but people weren't buying those in large numbers.

Re:Out of their minds?

[eviljolly]

Yes, but you can't measure "good UI" in an Excel diagram

I beg to differ. http://i.imgur.com/teooN.png

Re:Out of their minds?

[Zeek40]

I actually like the Sense interface they made it feels more intuitive than default Android, but it does noticably slow down the phone. I've got an HTC Evo 4G, and I rooted it for free wi-fi tether. I didn't realize how much faster the stock android UI is until I installed CyanogenMod7, probably because the phone as pretty good hardware specs compared to most smart phones. CM7 made the UI seem much more responsive, and apps don't stutter at all like they'd occasionally do with Sense.

Re:Out of their minds?

[BitZtream]

So explain why there were in that same position before Android existed.

Just because you only recently learned who there are doesn't mean they are actually new kids on the block.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Yvan256]

What if you put it in a PowerPoint slide?

Re:Out of their minds?

[BitZtream]

They can differentiate themselves in those 2 areas with Android just fine.

No, they can't ... they can't because they are just like EVERY OTHER ANDROID PHONE ON THE PLANET.

People don't give a fuck about hardware specs, just that its 'good enough', at that point software makes the difference. And the difference with Android is what? The amount of carrier mandated shit they put on your phone or how long it takes to jailbreak it .... err, root it.

Re:Out of their minds?

[jrumney]

They realize. It's the anonymous submitter who translated 'We have given it thought and we have discussed it internally, but we will not do it on impulse,' to HTC Considering Buying Own OS who is out of their mind - or perhaps they just know what sort of crap will be accepted as a story submission on slashdot these days.

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

But with computers we can get all the upsides of more features with none of the downsides (at least in software), so it makes no sense. It's like putting less books in a library if you had practically unlimited space and low fetch time.

It's not quite so much of a difference between hardware and software as you think. For example, take a look at the VLC preferences. Note that "advanced options" is unchecked there, the list would actually be longer. Now suppose a layperson would like to set up a HTTP proxy, because their network requires one (note that 99% of the human population would even fail to understand it this far). Where can that be found? It's in Input / Codecs -> Access modules -> HTTP(S) -> HTTP proxy. No way in hell would a layperson be able to find that, and not only because of the techy nomenclature, also because it's way too deep down in the list.

Why are there so many options there? Because vlc implements everything, including the kitchen sink, and so the users are burdened with the task of picking out the set of features they actually want to use. It's comparable to a device with thousands of buttons. The UI in the image linked here requires multiple years of training, which most users don't want to do just for watching a video or listening to internet radio.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Lunix Nutcase]

What position is that? A race to the bottom of thin margins with all the other Android companies who are continually getting less and less of the global smartphone profits whilst Apple continually gets more and more of the profits quarter over quarter? That's a pretty shitty position to be in. HTC probably wants to differentiate itself in a way that they can actually get higher margin devices sold rather than fighting over a continually shrinking pool of profits.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Lunix Nutcase]

Using Android IS benefiting them.

In what way? By making less and less profits quarter over quarter as its only way to compete is by making their phones cheaper by continually decreasing the profit margins on their devices? Apple now gets 2/3rds of the global smartphone profits while HTC is now fighting amongst a half dozen other big companies for an ever shrinking pool of profits and is fighting a similar race to the bottom that has led to HP to ditch its PC division.

Re:Out of their minds?

[GameboyRMH]

If the options menu had a search feature (like Windows 7's Start menu) then it would be easy to find, wouldn't it?

Re:Out of their minds?

[ceoyoyo]

HTC only has the ability to use Android (all of it), because they do what Google tells them. Google has made it clear that Android licensees are to toe the line. HTC, and every other handset manufacturer SHOULD be concerned if their entire business rests upon Google's whims, with no backup plan.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Tharsman]

They also realize they will have to compete with Android's own maker, who will very likely get even bigger exclusivity windows now than before.

They also realize defending Android in court is costing them too much money just to be forced into licensing agreements while the android creators sit comfortably in the sideline free of lawsuits.

They also realize that Google is becoming too controlling.

They also realize it is them, the phone makers, that made Android successful, not Google.

If there is one company that invests money in advertisement it's HTC. I think every time I go to the movies every phone ad I see is for a new HTC phone, usually an Evo. Yea, they always say "powered by android", but its that marketing that made android a name, not the other way around. They can do the same to whatever they decide to use next.

Keep in mind the average joe, not the geek, not the technically inclined or the researcher, has barely any clue what Android is.

Either way, just like they did by offering Windows Phone 7 devices, just because they buy their own OS and offer it does not mean they will stop selling Android that same day. They will call it "diversification of the product line" at first, and should they manage to make it stick, after a year perhaps, THEN they stop making Android phones. If it does not work, just write it off as a failed project and move on.

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

If the options menu had a search feature (like Windows 7's Start menu) then it would be easy to find, wouldn't it?

Yes, as long as the name of that option is known (which isn't a given in general. For example, how's the feature called for removing the black bars of a video?), but in my observations, laypeople aren't that good in filtering out nonrelevant information. They see everything at once, get scared, declare that they don't know how to do it not even noticing that search field there and cry for help (or switch to a simpler application if they're a bit above the norm).

In order to use anything (hardware, software, people, whatever), the user has to have a mental model of the behavior. It doesn't have to describe how the object really works, but it has to be good enough to make predictions of the outcome of the interaction the user is doing. If the object behaves differently to the expectation, or demonstrates that it does more than that, people either have to reconstruct an improved mental model (which takes time they don't want to invest, and could potentially fail), or they give up.

Re:Out of their minds?

[jonwil]

Anyone that thinks HTCs Android handsets are the same as everyone elses has clearly not used HTC Sense.

There ie plenty of scope for HTC to bolt all sorts of cool apps and UI gizmos on top of Android and in so doing, differentiate their handsets from everyone elses.

Re:Out of their minds?

[tomhudson]

Oh, but most IT-guys don't get it either. Computing has become mainstream, and it's hard to give up old thinking constructs (like more features being better unconditionally).

I hope you're not saying that IT people think "more features being better unconditionally", because sane programmers absolutely do NOT believe that (the insane ones went nuts by trying to add feature after feature).

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

I hope you're not saying that IT people think "more features being better unconditionally", because sane programmers absolutely do NOT believe that

No, I'm just saying that this is the old thinking construct in IT. However, I'm pretty sure that many IT folks would add feature after feature if it weren't for time/money constraints or laziness, thinking that it'd improve the product.

Re:Out of their minds?

[X.25]

So they don't realize that they have their position in the cellphone-market BECAUSE they use Android insted of IN SPITE of it?

You, like so many others, don't understand the concept of long term planning.

Seems like 'next quarter' disease has spread way further than ever anticipated.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Runaway1956]

"with computers we can get all the upsides of more features with none of the downsides (at least in software)"

Actually, the proper terms would include "bloat", "resource hungry", and "cpu intensive". Sorry, but there really ARE downsides to all those features.

Need an example? Install any Linux distro, with Gnome3. Look at your resource consumption. It's out of this world! Now, do a new installation of the same distro with Gnome2. Check out your resource consumption, and you'll find that you're using little more than 1/2 the resources that Gnome3 demands.

So - with all of Gnome's new "features", it has become necessary to install 6 gig of memory in your computer, in order to run things comfortably, and not rely on the swap file.

If you've bothered to experiment, you might want to nuke from orbit, and reinstall the same operating system with Enlightenment, instead of Gnome. Memory usage will drop dramatically, making a system with only 2 gig of memory quite responsive, and very usable.

If you're wondering where you can find a distro to experiment, Sabayon will work. Their newest version has both Gnome3 and Enlightenment (on different CD's), while their preceding version has Gnome2.

Features cost.

Re:Out of their minds?

[karnal]

Have had the phone for 2 years, no problem here. Not saying it doesn't happen, but for some it doesn't.

Re:Out of their minds?

[X.25]

Damn true.
Yeah, let's make another OS with no app. You know, the apps, the thing that nowadays make smartphones popular.
I really can't understand HTC strategy, even their lineup strategy. They talk about differentiation while most of their phones look the same, have similar specs and similar prices. HTC Sensation? Just like the HTC Desire HD... I am no Apple fan, but Apple's lineup, using old models as a cheap alternative make much more sense than throwing money at new models while retailers can't sell the old ones fast enough.

Did it occur to you that 50 well made apps are worth more (to a paltform) than 20,000 shitty apps?

Re:Out of their minds?

[gtirloni]

There is a ton of things that HTC, Samsung, Motorola can do to make their phones "feel" and "look" different, while still keeping Android underneath (taking care of things that the developers creating the look&feel aspects can take for granted).

Apple took Mach/BSD core and built a great UI on top of it... I don't think you can say a Macbook is just the same if you install FreeBSD on it. Or that FreeBSD is head to head in the desktop market. Anyway.. My point, things aren't so simple and having a solid foundation is not a signal that all innovation and differentiation in world has been achieved. A solid foundation is a welcome thing that propels developers to move forward.

People do care about hardware specs when their phones are much faster. But that's a long-term strategy. Eventually, just like with PCs, the hardware will be enough for 98% of the people in the world and it'll be hard to sell based on processor/memory specs alone.

Re:Out of their minds?

[scottbomb]

They don't? One of the biggest selling points for me when I bought the HTC Sensation was the dual-core 1.2 GHz CPU. The 8 Mp camera is nice too. And the Gorilla Glass. And the big screen.

Re:Out of their minds?

[GameboyRMH]

Not all features require more stuff to be running in memory. Most don't. What does Gnome3 have that XFCE doesn't? Some eye candy?

Re:Out of their minds?

[Bert64]

Kind of like the PC market, where using windows doesn't give you an edge over your competition... Which is why Apple (being the only one not dependent on windows) are the only manufacturer making any decent margin, and big players like IBM and now HP are looking to exit the market.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Bert64]

This is why modularity is good, linux as a whole is very good for this (don't like gnome3? run gnome2, or xfce, or enlightenment etc etc...), and the kernel is especially good (you can compile features as modules, or turn them off entirely to build a lean mean kernel)... More software should be build like this, with modules selectable at compile time or runtime.

Re:Out of their minds?

[damaki]

As far as I can see, what we get on small apps store is 45 shitty apps. Have a look at the OVI app store. Did I make my point?
I do not know about the Window Phone 7 app store, but I bet that's the same.

Of course quantity != quality, but you have more quality apps on the android and on the iphone store than on any other application store. Furthermore, most people don't care about quality. They want their generic apps (Facebook, XYZ newspaper, etc...) and a lot of other apps, mostly free.
Does Apple advertise apps quality or quantity? Think again.

Re:Out of their minds?

[xrayspx]

Have you ever used a WebOS phone? It really is what I wish Android was. The UI is very polished. The Cards paradigm is the best way to switch tasks and I was looking forward to the Pre3 for further improvements. When it became apparent the Pre3 wasn't going to Sprint, I got an HTC Evo 4G (Two actually), and while it's definitely usable, Android is nowhere near the user experience of WebOS. Palm's mail app and contacts app hands down beat anything I've used on Android or iPhones.

It's a good OS, and Palm put a lot of resources toward UX. It struck a great balance between the dumbed-downedness of the iPhone and the power of Android. I wish they hadn't shot themselves in the face with their underpowered devices, annoying their development community and the too-ethereal-for-you creepy TV ads.

Re:Out of their minds?

[h4rr4r]

99% of vlc users will never see that.
Hiding the extra features is better than not having them. It lets you have a clear interface 99% of the time, but still support all that extra stuff.

Re:Out of their minds?

[h4rr4r]

Which is better than what people are making on other OSes, look at the losses Win Phone and WebOS are making. Some profit is better than no profit. Do you think car makers should only make high margin luxury cars?

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

What's the motivation for implementing features that are never used, because they're hidden deep down where they can't be found? They only take up precious development time.

Re:Out of their minds?

[tlhIngan]

Did it occur to you that 50 well made apps are worth more (to a paltform) than 20,000 shitty apps?

True, but if one of those 20,000 shitty apps does what you want, even if it's shitty, it's still better than having none of the 50 quality apps do what you want.

And that's the point - having half a million apps implies a ton of crap (always has). However, there's a pretty damn good chance that there's one app that does what you want, even if it's shitty. And to a user, even if it's shitty, it beats not having it at all.

Number is but a simple metric to which we judge the chance of success with. If you're trying to find a particular thing, you'd want to try the one with the most things first as it's likely to have it. The ones with less things would generally be more mainstream, and while essential, it's the "fringe" apps that often improve the user experience.

Re:Out of their minds?

[bluewanders]

Not everyones use model is the same.

That's why the other features are there... VLC can DO a lot more than most people use it for... and people who know how to do those other things still have an option to do it. They aren't 'never used' they are more specifically used by power users or intrepid regular users who have a specific need and a google search engine.

If you want to dumb everything down and remove configurability until nothing scares the 'layman' we might as well just abolish anything that isn't branded Gerber or Fisher Price.

Re:Out of their minds?

[iluvcapra]

Some profit is better than no profit.

This is a competition, you have to be the best or improving, there's no such thing as "enough." Mobile manufacturers aren't going to settle for crumbs at Google's table, slitting each others throats while Google rides their back, extracting all the value from the platform. Particularly considering that Google is now going to be making their own phones and competing with them directly.

I suppose it isn't a good thing that Apple's vacuuming-up more of their customer's money than the alternative, but this does indicate that their business is much more sustainable. Just because Android is free doesn't mean it's always going to be available and have a healthy ecosystem-- this is mostly dependent on decisions made by Samsung, HTC, and the mobile carriers of the Earth. And if those people aren't making money, Android is dead.

Do you think car makers should only make high margin luxury cars?

If people were paying $400 for iPhones this might make sense, but iPhones are not sold at luxury car prices...

Re:Out of their minds?

[DrgnDancer]

Other than the big screen and maybe the impact resistant glass, most people don't care. Are the pictures clear enough? I don't care if the camera is 8MP or 6MP if the pictures are clear enough for my needs. Really, the cameras on cell phones are getting enough pixels that they're becoming irrelevant. The glass isn't good enough to keep up with the sensors. My wife's Nikon D70 is a few years old now, but it's only 7.5 MP, and you can already tell when she uses inferior lenses. I seriously doubt there's a cell phone out there with a lens capable of getting the full value out of an 8MP camera. Even if there is one that's got good glass when brand new, a cell phone isn't a camera. They get dropped, get finger prints on them, get scratches... after a month or two the glass will still not be good enough for the sensor.

Same with the CPU. Take my most processor intensive application... Does it run without major issue on my phone? Then the CPU is fast enough. I don't care if it's 1.2 GHz dual core of 1 GHz single core, per se. I care that my stuff runs, and runs comfortably. Now stepping out of the role of user I care about specs. Sure, when phones get faster, I can develop more hefty apps, I can do more, offer more. Users don't care about that though. They figure out that Angry Birds is their most CPU intensive app (though they wouldn't use those terms in the thought process), and find a phone that runs Angry Birds well. Whatever the cheapest phone that will do that, and take acceptably clear pictures is the one they want. (Though that bigger screen might be worth a few bucks too).

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

If you want to dumb everything down and remove configurability until nothing scares the 'layman' we might as well just abolish anything that isn't branded Gerber or Fisher Price.

That's why I'm a fan of having multiple applications for doing the same thing, one per target user group. VLC might be the app for computer enthusiasts, and something like QuickTime Player X might be the app for laypeople (QuickTime Player X doesn't even have preferences). Of course that's more work for the developers, but every one can get a usable product.

Note however, that the size of these groups becomes smaller and smaller, the more sophisticated the required knowledge becomes. That's why most companies aim low.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Belial6]

Are you suggesting that an entirely different application be written for those 1% of users that need the extra functionality? That isn't really a good way to reduce precious development time.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Belial6]

You are absolutely wrong about that. Many, many people would claim that the touch interface has been perfected. This will be particularity prevalent with iOS users.

Re:Out of their minds?

[MightyYar]

LOL, but then they'll immediately download the next version, right?

Re:Out of their minds?

[Bert64]

That's a poor backup plan, you trade a semi open system for an entirely closed system... You are more beholden to microsoft than to google, as at least with android you have the option to fork those versions which have been released as well as modify them to any extent you see fit.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Bert64]

Welcome to commoditization... Unless you can differentiate, then it comes down to whoever has the lowest manufacturing costs and the most well known brands. This is how mature markets end up.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Bert64]

A shitty app that does what you need is better than a well made app that doesn't do what you need...

Re:Out of their minds?

[Bert64]

How is this any different to the PC market, where the entire business of every manufacturer with the exception of Apple rests upon Microsoft's whims?

Re:Out of their minds?

[kj_kabaje]

I think the original post meant something along the lines of having a simple, clean UI that Joe user can understand.  Of course more features in a generic sense are useful, but if a user can't find the freaking button or option hidden in a sub-menu pop-up box and then check the appropriate box to use that really cool feature, what's the point?

Re:Out of their minds?

[Belial6]

Correct, and they will claim that THAT version is has been perfected.

Re:Out of their minds?

[ceoyoyo]

It's not. And those manufacturers fought tooth and nail not to end up in that situation. And lost. Now they're MS OEMs and nothing more.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Miamicanes]

I think they're more afraid that Google's going to use Motorola as its bully pulpit to push phone hardware beyond what US carriers will embrace, and leave them in a position of having to choose between gambling on cutting-edge designs with high R&D costs that US carriers might reject, or trying to run new versions of Android on hardware that's just not up to the task & having their phones suck compared to GoogleMoto's flagship models.

Google doesn't HAVE to give itself artifical exclusivity to put HTC & Samsung in a position of de-facto second-class status; all they have to do is make the latest version of Android demand substantially better hardware than the highest-end phones Samsung and HTC are willing to make at that instant in time. Google has the cash to play "chicken" with US carriers and push ahead with hardware its official customers (US carriers) aren't interested in buying.

If Sprint, Verizon, and AT&T aren't interested in selling a phone that would have a $399 subsidized cost and ship with a 3GHz quadcore CPU, a quarter-terrabyte of flash, 8 gigs of ram, a 4.5" 1280x720 display, and a GPU that would have brought tears of envy to the most hardcore PC gamer's eyes just 2 or 3 years ago, HTC & Samsung are unlikely to build them anyway in the hope that Sprint/Verizon/AT&T will back down. Google has the cash to build a warehouse full of them, ship out preview phones to reviewers, then pit customers against carriers for the phones they're dying to own. Worst-case, Google writes them off as a partial loss & makes lots of buyers in India & New Zealand happy. HTC & Samsung can't afford to take risks like that.

Re:Out of their minds?

[CastrTroy]

1% of 400 million (made up number, last number I heard for facebook subscribers) is still 4 million users. Writing an application for a million users is still a big enough market. Unless you're writing an app for 5 users, there may not be a point, but if they're paying you for it, why not.

Re:Out of their minds?

[CastrTroy]

I agree with you on the camera issue. A cellphone with an 8 MP camera is nowhere near as goo as a digital camera with 8 MP, which again is nowhere near as good as a DSLR with 8MP. My 10 year old 2 MP FujiFilm digital camera that uses SmartMedia (remember those) for storage blows the pants off any cellphone camera I've ever seen, regardless of how many MP they say they have. I swear half of them just have some 1 or 2 MP sensor and then scale up the image to 8 MP in software and call it 8 MP.

Re:Out of their minds?

[tom17]

So, as per the above example, how would you set up the proxy for QuickTime player if it has no options?

Re:Out of their minds?

[Belial6]

It may be a big enough market for a separate app, but that isn't what I was responding to. am 2k claimed that adding features to an existing program "only takes up precious development time". This means that either he believes it takes less time to write and maintain a completely separate app than include the features in the existing app, or that the 4 million users that do need/want the extra features should just do without.

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

It just uses the system-wide settings.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Archangel Michael]

I meant the "good enough" train, not the tablet train.

The Microsoft Tablet computer might work, if they can figure out Xbox games on it.

In fact, if I were MS, that is exactly where I would be headed, using XBOX live as the "subscription" model they've been looking for.

And if you're at MS, and you like this idea, drop me a line ... I have tons more ideas like this.

Re:Out of their minds?

[MightyYar]

Sorry, I fail at reading comprehension :)

I think MS only was successful with "good enough" because they were able to pair it with aggressive business practices that ultimately resulted in a monopoly. Without the ultimate monopoly, the state of the art would have probably moved forward.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Andy Dodd]

In that it is enabling them to make profit and increase market share, as opposed to hemorrhage market share (BlackBerry), lose money (WebOS), or make more money off of patent licensing from Android devices than your own OS (Windows Phone 7).

The market has spoken - if you try to be "another Apple" - you will fail. Apple can do what they do by leveraging iTunes to bolster the appeal of their devices. iPhone would've gone nowhere if not for iTunes/iPod.

Re:Out of their minds?

[rev0lt]

While it is usual for cellphones to perform upscale of the photographed image, the big problem is sensor size. Given the same cells (MP), the bigger the sensor, the better the quality of the picture is. The smaller the cell size, the bigger the noise is in relation to the light captured. That's one of the reasons why the DSLR with 8MP will usually take a better picture than a 12MP compact camera.

Re:Out of their minds?

[__aazsst3756]

o they don't realize that they have their position in the cellphone-market BECAUSE they use Android insted of IN SPITE of it?

HP is the number one computer maker, yet they want to sell their business. The problem of being a hardware maker using a licensed OS, is that while revenue and market position might be great, you don't make much profit.

At the end of the day Profit (the part you get to keep) is all that really matters. As a business person, I understand the appeal.

Re:Out of their minds?

[idontgno]

Android won't be relevant forever, just like WM wasn't,

Just you wait. Next year will be the Year of the Android Desktop.

Re:Out of their minds?

[shellbeach]

People don't give a fuck about hardware specs, just that its 'good enough', at that point software makes the difference. And the difference with Android is what? The amount of carrier mandated shit they put on your phone or how long it takes to jailbreak it .... err, root it.

If you think that, you've never met a sales person. If they have a customer looking at the cheapest, lowest-spec'ed Android phone, then they'll point out to the customer why it's absolutely vital that they have a phone with a dual core processor, and a bigger screen, and a higher resolution screen, and a higher resolution camera, and more storage space, and more RAM, and ...

I would argue that from a sales perspective, it's all about the hardware once you've convinced the customer that they want Android rather than iOS. As for any other OS ... well, have you seen how well Symbian, Bada, WP7, etc, are doing? Most app developers are going to write software for two OSes at most -- nothing else is going to get a look in. Just look at the number of apps Bada has right now. Or WebOS, for that matter ...

Re:Out of their minds?

[shellbeach]

In what way? By making less and less profits quarter over quarter as its only way to compete is by making their phones cheaper by continually decreasing the profit margins on their devices? Apple now gets 2/3rds of the global smartphone profits while HTC is now fighting amongst a half dozen other big companies for an ever shrinking pool of profits

I'm not so sure your logic holds here. What's the Android phone (almost) everyone wants? The Galaxy S II. What's the most expensive Android phone? The Galaxy S II. Who's making the most profits in the Android market right now? Samsung.

HTC had a great thing going with their early Android phones, but they've dropped the ball in terms of hardware this year. That's why they're not doing so well right now; it's nothing to do with Android.

... and is fighting a similar race to the bottom that has led to HP to ditch its PC division.

By your logic, HP would have saved its PC division by getting itself a new OS and differentiating itself via software. Boy, if only they'd bought WebOS back in the day, how much better things would be for them now! Oh, wait ...

Re:Out of their minds?

[dcavanaugh]

I never said it was a GOOD plan.

Re:Out of their minds?

[Xtravar]

I believe WebOS had sufficient Android compatibility, at least on the tablet. I think this is a smart move for HTC - they can finally differentiate themselves and control their own destiny. For a while during the Windows Mobile/early iPhone era, they were kind of screwed.

Re:Out of their minds?

[dudpixel]

The bigger issue with Android is that its creator just bought HTC's competitor, making Google both supplier and competition to HTC.

Samsung has since announced that it is still heavily developing its own Bada OS, and now HTC is talking of their own OS as well. Coincidence? Of course not!

Its not that they will ditch Android, they wont, at least for now. But they need something there so that if Google ever play dodgy with Android, for example giving "Motorola" an unfair advantage, then they have something to fall back on.

You'll notice that almost all Android phone manufacturers also ship WinMo phones. They dont like putting all their eggs in one basket - and rightly so. :-)

Re:Out of their minds?

[dudpixel]

But with computers we can get all the upsides of more features with none of the downsides (at least in software), so it makes no sense. It's like putting less books in a library if you had practically unlimited space and low fetch time.

The problem is that software is not immune from feature-bloat. There isn't unlimited "space" and the fetch-time is usually measured in the number of clicks to perform some function.

The UI has now become every bit as important as the functions it presents.

Re:Out of their minds?

[dudpixel]

If the options menu had a search feature (like Windows 7's Start menu) then it would be easy to find, wouldn't it?

Only if you knew what words to search for.

Re:Out of their minds?

[dudpixel]

If the developers are doing more work so that the users don't have to do as much work, then they are doing it right.

Re:Out of their minds?

[dudpixel]

Just make one that works well - that should put you in the top 10 at least.

Re:Out of their minds?

[xrayspx]

The main thing that bugs me really is the busted ass HTC clock/alarm clock app. Since it syncs time based on, my best guess, a keyword search on the city name of the network egress point it sees you coming from, they seem to tend to end up in the wrong timezones every now and then. That's pretty convenient. Oh, and when using an AirRave it thinks I'm in Red Hook, NY. I'm guessing it /means/ Red Hook, NJ, which is still nowhere near where I live.

Aside from that, adding hackers keyboard, K9 Mail and TextSecure seems to add most of what I need. The UI fluff that Palm did really well is missed, but not essential. Plus, on the palm I couldn't easily set up an SSH tunnel and then VNC over it to firewalled machines. I just stumbled across that and it's a huge point in the HTC column. However, certificate management was hugely easier on the Pre.

Re:Out of their minds?

[vipw]

1. Search on Google
2. Find this thread
3. Download VLC
4. Configure VLC
5. There is no profit.

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

Samsung has since announced that it is still heavily developing its own Bada OS, and now HTC is talking of their own OS as well. Coincidence? Of course not!

Its not that they will ditch Android, they wont, at least for now. But they need something there so that if Google ever play dodgy with Android, for example giving "Motorola" an unfair advantage, then they have something to fall back on.

Yes, but without the app infrastructure, they have a steep hill to climb. How should they ever hope to get market acceptance without it?

Re:Out of their minds?

[justforgetme]

Here's one ludicrous idea:

"HEY HTC! Why not invest in the brilliant OS that is meego"

Re:Out of their minds?

[justforgetme]

From creating you own OS to getting to the point where it actually matters in the IT world is a tough job. HP found that out the hard way. Ok some might point out that Samsung would be able to create some sort of OS monoculture inside their ecosystems (mobile,living room, etc) , self promoting the underlying OS but still I wouldn't bet money on homegrown OSs success any more. The barrier of entry in the OS market is steep too much for any public company to graciously deal with.

IMO megacorps will bang their heads agains that wall for some years then concede that communal development is the only solution, create a nice open source OS infrastructure and standards (if not just adopt an existing one) and then mod the hell out of it to get the competing edge against their adversaries. I have been labeled as delusional from time to time though...

Re:Out of their minds?

[kj_kabaje]

Meego and WebOS are both pretty good for Joe user, *AND* they can have the extra bells and whistles for those who like to "unlock" (unlocking WebOS palm is built in by default, which I think is pretty cool) into developer mode.

Re:Out of their minds?

[dudpixel]

Samsung has since announced that it is still heavily developing its own Bada OS, and now HTC is talking of their own OS as well. Coincidence? Of course not!

Its not that they will ditch Android, they wont, at least for now. But they need something there so that if Google ever play dodgy with Android, for example giving "Motorola" an unfair advantage, then they have something to fall back on.

Yes, but without the app infrastructure, they have a steep hill to climb. How should they ever hope to get market acceptance without it?

I cant answer that one. There are quite a few apps out there for Bada already - but the point is that these companies are reacting to Google's purchase of Motorola - it sounds like a desperate plan for sure, but the fact that they are making these plans is very interesting.

Re:Out of their minds?

[dudpixel]

so imagine if HTC bought webOS, then open-sourced it (but kept the role of maintainer etc)?

That would be awesome...and would definitely generate a lot of interest right across the industry.

Re:Out of their minds?

[badkarmadayaccount]

Windows has a very simple convention that deals with that. The Advanced button.

Re:Out of their minds?

[badkarmadayaccount]

WebOS userland port to Android kernel fork?

Re:Out of their minds?

[am 2k]

Yes, I know that one. You have to press three of those in a row to change the environment variables in Vista and 7. Annoying as hell for advanced users.

Re:Out of their minds?

[xrayspx]

That'd be a neat trick. I'd love to have the contacts, email and texting apps again. The overall UX of the Pre was really pretty slick though too. Maybe the rumors are true about HTC considering just buying it outright. If they do, I'm positive you'll see "hack WebOS onto an existing Evo 4G" start popping up pretty soon after they launch a phone with WebOS.

Re:Out of their minds?

[badkarmadayaccount]

Ok, don't put three, just one.

Re:Out of their minds?

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

Uh... you do know that for many of us who've been interested in smartphones, we know of HTC as the Windows Mobile vendor?
There was this whole slew of smartphones that people have conveniently forgotten, it's pretty darn amazing.

Re:Out of their minds?

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

But with computers we can get all the upsides of more features with none of the downsides (at least in software), so it makes no sense.

Actually, that's not true. Features in software have a cost just like they have a cost in hardware. It's just harder to see since we're so used to consuming desktop-style resources.

Ever wonder why, despite having a multitasking kernel on iPhone from day one, Apple refused to provide background apps until iOS4?

The answer isn't just RAM, but also battery life and UI responsiveness.

Background apps would be huge wins in utility. But it has a cost in that with limited amounts of RAM and no swap, you can't run all that many apps. If you had apps running in the background and your foreground app runs out of memory, all your apps are hosed.

Furthermore, if you're making it so that you auto kill apps, then you're now having the CPU go off and do stuff like kill apps nicely (to prevent data corruption) and this means your app is less responsive.

If you have an app in the background doing stuff, it's also a higher power consumption. You might think, yeah, but it's just one measly app checking a feed over the net. But that net connection causes the radio to stay on.

I've mentioned in the past how awful I think my Nexus S is because of Android. And after reading a bunch of SDK docs for both iOS and Android, it's pretty clear to me that the Android team should have thought things through better.

Bad plan

[Manip]

Why are they trying to buy a failed OS that nobody uses? I could understand it if it came with some IP of note, but it doesn't. Plus let's be honest it will expand their consumer base by almost nobody that matters - a few geeks who made a poor purchasing decision.

I'm not one to harp on about Open Source and Linux, but in this one case it is a situation where HTC should be investing that cash into their own Linux/Android branch rather than buying WebOS which is worth little or nothing.

Re:Bad plan

[garcia]

Because they don't like Google and its policies? Android is great but that's because it has an app store that goes along with it. People want apps, lots of them but companies don't want Google to come along with the deal.

By rolling their own version of Android it's unlikely they'll be in with the Android app store and it would be just as useless as having WebOS (or any other OS "worth little or nothing").

Re:Bad plan

[gtirloni]

It seems everything is about patents nowadays. Perhaps by bying WebOS they get enough patents to help their Android offerings.

Re:Bad plan

[TheRaven64]

Having used both, I'd much rather have a WebOS device than an Android one. It was seriously let down by the hardware, not by the software. For example, in WebOS you have a conversation with a person, and whether it's via SMS, IM, or email it just seamlessly flows together. With Android, these are all separate streams.

HTC has shown that they can do hardware pretty well, so if they made a WebOS phone I'd be sorely tempted. I'd definitely recommend it to non-technical friends - WebOS is a not more user friendly than Android, which is quite clearly designed by geeks.

Re:Bad plan

[afidel]

HTC already has their own Android branch, it's called Sense and while it will run Android apps it's really quite a different user experience from the base OS (IMHO a better one). However I'm not sure how many consumers make a purchase based on the differences between the software platforms. They care about whether the device meets their needs, and then price. Android has basically locked up the smartphone market for people that don't want to pay Apple prices or just don't like iOS for some reason, trying to fight that trend with a fourth tier OS is kind of crazy (even RIM with a much stronger financial base is going to have a hard time fighting the two and will likely lose or adopt Android in the end and I think MS's shareholder are going to revolt over their losses on Windows Phone).

Re:Bad plan

[Geeky]

Maybe I was lucky with my original Pre, but I loved the OS and didn't have a problem with the hardware either. The design was great, I liked the keyboard and it never actually let me down.

I particularly liked the physical switch to turn the phone to silent, so that you could toggle it without having to open the phone up or use the screen. I also loved the glowing notification light which stayed on when you had a missed email/call/SMS. The Android equivalent is poor by comparison and goes out after five minutes (yes, I could find an app, but how do you know which will be the right one? Especially for HTC, as it seems you need to root the phone).

On Android now, and other than finding one or two genuinely useful apps, I'd still be happier with an updated WebOS phone.

Re:Bad plan

[Andy Dodd]

"For example, in WebOS you have a conversation with a person, and whether it's via SMS, IM, or email it just seamlessly flows together. With Android, these are all separate streams. "

Oh god I HATE unified messaging approaches such as this. A messaging medium with a limit of 120 characters per message has NO business being merged with email.

Look at how shitty Facebooks' messaging system has become since they removed the distinction between "email" style messages and IMs. No more subject lines, I get emails when someone IMs me... yech.

Re:Bad plan

[MrHanky]

People want apps only because of the extra functionality (and entertainment, in the case of games). Android isn't great, it's merely good enough, and what makes it good enough isn't the enormous amount of apps you can download, it's the fact that you usually don't need them due to the excellent Google integration. Android without Google would be fairly shit, for a Linux OS.

Re:Bad plan

[Deus.1.01]

I'm not one to harp on about Open Source and Linux, but in this one case it is a situation where HTC should be investing that cash into their own Linux/Android branch rather than buying WebOS which is worth little or nothing.

Open Moko maybe? :)

Re:Bad plan

[O('_')O_Bush]

Well, the same could have been said about NeXT, but that ended up being a very successful produce for Apple. Its not the OS that matters, its the underlying technology.

Re:Bad plan

[DrgnDancer]

I'd argue that OSX succeeded, at first, only because it was so much better than OS 9. It's early success was the remaining Apple faithful upgrading their OS or buying a new computer with the new OS. It was only after the faithful adopted it, and the remaining Apple software vendors were dragged kicking and screaming into developing for it; that other people began to realize that it wasn't just better than OS 9, it was actually a pretty good OS. Had it not had the built in user base from those remaining Macheads, I don't think it could have had the affect it did... certainly not in the time frame that it did. It's a good OS, but so was BeOS, and so is Linux, both of them had popularity surges around the time of 10.0. The first is relegated to the history bin, and the second is largely irrelevant on the desktop.

Re:Bad plan

[Joe Jay Bee]

Android has basically locked up the smartphone market for people that don't want to pay Apple prices or just don't like iOS for some reason, trying to fight that trend with a fourth tier OS is kind of crazy (even RIM with a much stronger financial base is going to have a hard time fighting the two and will likely lose or adopt Android in the end and I think MS's shareholder are going to revolt over their losses on Windows Phone).

RIM are probably a lot better off than most people think. For a start, at least here in the UK, they have the youth market utterly sewn up thanks to BBM, the keyboard being great for bashing out quick text messages and the fact that on a bang-for-buck basis BlackBerry phones are ridiculously good value (a Curve 3G is about £160 on prepay, mine is free on a £10pm contract and you can get one with a PlayBook on a £36pm contract). The UI wasn't as slick as iPhone or Android, but certainly with OS6 they've made some great strides. As far as usability goes, I had an Android phone for six months and was actually fairly grateful when it broke (protip: when Motorola say Defy phones don't break when they're dropped, they are lying through their teeth) as the BlackBerry experience is so much more efficient.

At any rate, RIM are not going to adopt Android; they bought QNX and are going to be replacing their existing BlackBerry OS with it come BB8.

Re:Bad plan

[space_jake]

Wouldn't branching off of Android also make you open to an assault from Oracle?

Re:Bad plan

[Andy Dodd]

Even SMS and IM merging is bad, due to the significantly different cost structures between them.

If I IM someone, I often do NOT want it going via SMS.
1) It costs them money and costs me money
2) If they're logged off of IM they may not wish to be bothered via SMS

e.g. SMS messages are for higher-priority traffic than IMs, hence should be separated.

There is a reason I have different notification tones for SMS, IM, and email - I prioritize them in that order.

Re:Bad plan

[DrgnDancer]

But the NeXT of iOS is really descended from OSX, which succeeded because it was better than OS 9.

Market / App Store

[Demoknight]

I bought the HTC Thunderbolt primarily for the OS and the market that comes with it. Apple and Google are the two dominant players because of their market/store not because of the OS alone. If HTC came up with a spectacular "killer-app" and gave WebOS exclusivity in some fashion than it might have a chance of people caring about it.

Re:Market / App Store

[Pieroxy]

Palm (and HP) produced sub-par hardware with excellent software. This makes up for a sub-par phone.

Throw in a killer phone such as the Galaxy S II with WebOS and you'll see if they don't sell like hotcakes.

Re:Market / App Store

[mlts]

Nail, head hit. WebOS is a good OS, but so is BlackberryOS. However, one of the biggest reasons that people have moved to Android and iOS is because of the third party apps, mainly games.

What has hamstrung Windows Phone 7 is this exact thing. The OS is solid, the hardware conforms to a decent spec guideline for a snappy UI, and the security model is good. However, without the apps, people will turn their nose up at it and buy a device using a platform that their friends and acquaintances use.

In a way, what we are seeing in the phone industry is what we saw in the computer industry when formats got consolidated. In the past, we had C64, TI-99/4a, Amiga, Apple //, CP/M, Atari ST, Xenix, and so forth. These got consolidated over time to a few mainstream platforms (and it can be argued that all of these got consolidated into one platform -- AJAX and Web based apps) because most consumers care more about what programs they are able to run, than the OS.

Re:Market / App Store

[bhcompy]

First off, turn in your geek card for using the term "killer-app".

Secondly, OS's come and go. iOS and Android have their day currently, but eventually they will fade like everyone else

Re:Market / App Store

[bhcompy]

No one in the linux market is a competent marketer. This is what happens when you have no income stream to support marketing. Apple, on the other hand, has been steadily, if minutely, chopping away at Windows with OSX, which is their first good attempt at an OS since forever, but they also suffer from poor marketing overall(on both the consumer and business end.. MS has a built in audience because they produce and market their business/enterprise applications very well, where Apple has been vacating that market and never pushed what they had in the first place. Apple does market moderately well to students and a/v engineers).

Re:Market / App Store

[shutdown -p now]

without the apps, people will turn their nose up at it and buy a device using a platform that their friends and acquaintances use.

Well, part of the reason why WP7 doesn't have that many apps is because you can't easily port them - no C++ or even C is allowed, so you have to rewrite all your code in C# or VB. Given the low popularity of the platform compared to competitors, for most app developers, the return is not worth the investment. In this case, WP should bite the bullet and just provide a native SDK - it needs developers, not the other way around.

Re:that's why i'm going back to iOS

[beerdini]

Any company with a sense of customer service, even a poor one, wouldn't drop support to existing products like that. You'd be more likely to see whatever was already in the production channels come to market depending on how much was invested in them before you'd see the company change gears to make devices with their own OS...as long as they weren't purchasing it just for the IP. They won't just sign a deal and say the next day that they absolutely won't support their existing products.

I'd love to see HTC pick up WebOS, but I'm not going to hold my breath on it.

Re:that's why i'm going back to iOS

[Threni]

Yes, I'm sure their shareholders would love them to turn their backs on the millions of customers who've turned HTC into a more-or-less household name.

If they could turn WebOS into a launcher / UI....

[aapold]

So basically instead of sense or touchwiz or whatever you ran webOS as your "skin", and it handled the multi-tasking and other interface elements... but the apps themselves were android apps that ran inside "cards"..... I'd sign up for that.

Meego

[quantumphaze]

They can always run with Nokia's abandoned Meego OS. They wouldn't even need to buy it out.

I would recommend that they buy out myriadgroup who make Alien Dalvik to ease porting of Android apps to their own store. I always suspected that myriadgroup was trying to get bought out by Nokia before Feb 19.

Re:Meego

[GameboyRMH]

If they build a MeeGo GSM phone with modern hardware and a physical keyboard I'll buy it.

Re:Meego

[quantumphaze]

And USB-OTG with HDMI/DisplayPort. Then it can be a PC too.

I firmly believe that Meego is the only mobile OS with the best chances of bridging the gap between phone, tablet and PC. Just change the window manager.

Re:Meego

[GameboyRMH]

I think those two are part of "modern hardware" at this point. Everything has had HDMI/DisplayPort for about a year now and more and more devices are offering USB OTG.

Re:Meego

[ColdWetDog]

All right! They've got two customers!

Go for it HTC!

Re:Meego

[Boltronics]

Three. Count me in!! :D

Re:Meego

[badkarmadayaccount]

Make that four.

TRON?

[jc42]

I'd wonder if they've considered the TRON OS. Of course, hardly anyone in the US has ever heard of it, despite its being one of the most-installed OSs in the rest of the world. But the US is no longer an important part of the phone industry, y'know. And 99% of the customers don't know or care what OS the phone is running.

You'd think they'd be attracted to an OS that was designed for small gadgets, and which started life with strong support for all the world's languages, not just English.

Re:TRON?

[TheRaven64]

But the US is no longer an important part of the phone industry, y'know

What do you mean 'no longer?' The US has never been an important part of the phone industry, from the perspective of handset makers. They don't sell phones to customers, they sell them to networks, who demand a low price and will only bundle phones with the really expensive contracts with a 20% APR loan hidden in the details if they don't get a very low price. Then they'll try to rip out all of the best features of the phone, leaving them network-branded devices, with most of the uniqueness gone.

Re:TRON?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

"But the US is no longer an important part of the phone industry"

Umm, what? The US was never a terribly commanding customer, since Europe also had pretty strong, early, GSM adoption, and the US has historically been in thrall of what suits the carriers, which made for (until recently) a market overwhelmingly composed of crippled dumbphones. They've also never done huge amounts of phone hardware manufacture; but the phone industry has arguably never been more American than it is now when it comes to software.

Our northern neighbors at RIM are turning in worse numbers every quarter, Nokia has effectively abandoned Symbian as a smartphone contender and become a Microsoft vassal for everything but their most basic handsets, HTC and Samsung have been going fairly heavy Android, with a modest side of MS. Motorola, American to begin with, is now a Google vassal.

Even on the dumbphone side, Qualcomm's "BREW"*shudder* and various mini-java flavors by the company formerly known as Sun are ubiquitous...

The US certainly doesn't exert unqualified dominion over the mobile phone industry; but "no longer an important part"...?

Re:TRON?

[RogerWilco]

Then they'll try to rip out all of the best features of the phone, leaving them network-branded devices, with most of the uniqueness gone.

It's one of the reasons I bought an iPhone: No network-branded crap.

(I don't live in the US, but they do that here too if they can).

Re:TRON?

[wzinc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_Project#cite_note-1

"The Most Popular Operating System in the World"
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/31855.html

Umm, that article is from 2003!

Re:TRON?

[Miamicanes]

> But the US is no longer an important part of the phone industry, y'know

That's a very dangerous assumption, and a large part of how Nokia got into its present mess. The US might be a tiny part of the GSM market, and account for almost no direct-to-consumer sales, but its mindshare influence is enormous everywhere that English is a major language of commerce and media. Nokia abandoned the US market, then wondered why its popularity at home slowly evaporated. It completely failed to grasp the significance of MeeGo & Symbian's complete nonexistence as far as sites like Gizmodo, Engadget, Wired, and US-based sites in general were concerned. They weren't marginalized -- as far as American authors were concerned, they might as well have gone out of business. And when readers in Europe saw nothing but stories about iPhones and Android, their mindshare at home dried up within a year or two as well.

Re:TRON?

[Karpe]

Even Japan is switching away from TRON to Linux. TRON is really limited. Made sense for controlling hardware in the 80s & 90s, but it lacks most of the abstractions expected in a system today. I've developed for it.

Re:TRON?

[sznupi]

Well, Nokia also made "poor" (not for consumers) choice by being reluctant to allow too strong castration of phones and their UIs; something which US carriers demanded. Or how Qualcomm effectively blocked their US sales for some time. Or dynamics of random fashion (for example preferring RAZR and such, which were really quite atrocious; but in a fancy shell; not really replicating such uptake elsewhere)

And I think you overestimate the influence of those "enthusiast" sites, or the rapidness of shift. If anything, emergence of better (so called) feature phones over the years possibly hurt them more, opened people to Asian manufacturers; phones in the style of LG Cookie, Samsung Corby or Star (until recently #1 fastest 10 million units sold for Samsung) - and yup, phones not really present in the US or on those sites (but wildly popular in Europe)

Re:that's why i'm going back to iOS

[neokushan]

HTC makes Android, Windows and Brew phones. Why would this make them dump them all?

They completely miss the point

[Dachannien]

They miss the point of why they're being sued. It's not because Android may or may not infringe on patents. It's because they're a competitor in an extremely lucrative market, and they'll still be a competitor - and a target - regardless of what OS their phones use.

Re:that's why i'm going back to iOS

[alen]

and seeing how netflix and skype went, i'll be the first one to buy a handset from HTC and Samsung before they dump android just to not have it supported by developers

Lots of OSes to pick

[Henriok]

There are several cool zombie like OS:es that is ripe for resurrection: AmigaOS, MorphOS, Plan 9 and Haiku. One could even put an OpenStep foundation on top of any of these or something more conventional OS like Linux or xBSD and tap some similarities with iOS.

Re:Lots of OSes to pick

[ColdWetDog]

There are several cool zombie like OS:es that is ripe for resurrection: AmigaOS, MorphOS, Plan 9 and Haiku. One could even put an OpenStep foundation on top of any of these or something more conventional OS like Linux or xBSD and tap some similarities with iOS.

OK, since you've opened up the Pandora's box of Ancient Code, what about:

CP/M - lightweight, simple. If it could run on a Z-80, think of what it will do on an A9.
MS-DOS - yeah, a little clunky but if Microsoft complained about Copyright and stuff, you can just shift to FreeDOS. Hell, we could add QEMM and Quarterdeck for multitasking.
OS/2 - Should be able to fly on modern hardware. Add a few big buttons and you're golden.

and maybe a couple of others. Make the hardware Steampunkish and you've got an entirely new marketing strategy.

Re:Lots of OSes to pick

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but to make any of those work would require so much development (drivers, etc) that they might as well write their own OS.

What I would do is build a new system on the Android core (kernel and other native binaries). Redo the API's, UI and all the applications using all native code instead of Java. I would scrap Java for the most part, maybe keep it as an alternative subsystem only.

Then you would have a real iPhone killer. It's not that current Android devices don't compete successfully with iPhone, it's just that the iPhone is generally more smooth and performs better. Even fast Android phones like my HTC G2 overclocked to 1 Ghz still chunk and chug every once in a while due to the Java bullshit. I have written native applications for my phone and they absolutely scream. It's way faster than anything from Apple. Most people don't get to see that though, they need these pumped up super fast phones just to run crappy Java applications at barely usable speeds.

Re:Lots of OSes to pick

[unixisc]

There are several cool zombie like OS:es that is ripe for resurrection: AmigaOS, MorphOS, Plan 9 and Haiku. One could even put an OpenStep foundation on top of any of these or something more conventional OS like Linux or xBSD and tap some similarities with iOS.

I quite agree w/ this - particularly Haiku/Be OS. Or see if they could buy something like QNX. Incidentally, could they buy BeOS from its Japanese owners Access Co? Is Chorus still a part of Sun/Oracle? That would be another suggestion. OS/2, as CornWetDog suggested, would need porting from x86 to ARM or Loongson, but instead, for simpler porting, use OSFree. I'm not sure which license it uses, and whether forking it into an inhouse version is an option.

I have another suggestion - why not just license from Oracle Sun's legacy JavaOS and picoJava, and have someone build the Java CPU - one that uses bytecode as its instruction set, and where JavaOS is a part of the firmware. Then buy/write an UI for this platform in Java, and have it sit on JavaOS, which provides all its functions, including the VM. Once they have this, all Java apps out there would be able to run on this.

Re:Lots of OSes to pick

[unixisc]

Can't all the Java code out there be compiled to run on the native CPU, instead of the VM, if needed? I thought Java had that option.

Reason I ask - except x86, no CPU has much native code, and ARM has been running mainly Linux/BSD and Java apps (which ain't much of a differentiator from other CPUs.) So either create a complete Java based system (including OS & CPU), like I described above, which can run any Java app. Other option - take AMD's Fusion (for tablets) and on it, put any x86 native app suitable for this, and run it.

Ahh WebOS

[jellomizer]

WebOS is one of those mobile OS's that reminds me of BeOS. The techies love it. But fails to get a strong customer base.

I think it was mostly due with Palms hacking WebOS to in essence Hack into iTunes to gets its media (for iPod Support) causing its main competitor Apple to keep changing their method to block WebOS, from accessing its system without Apples permission.
So Early Adopters would have shaky Music support where it is supported one day then the next it will stop then they will have 2 week later they will have it again then stop. Granted I don't approve of Apple locking down iTunes to only Apple devices, however Palm just ignoring Apples policies just because they don't like them isn't good enough, and ends up hurting their customers more then just saying we don't support iTunes but they these other popular services.
In the mean time while Palm is fighting it gave Android the time to perfect its system and get it out, without all the baggage that Palm has made for itself.

Re:Ahh WebOS

[jalefkowit]

No, it was because of the crappy hardware. The first generation of WebOS phones (which Palm desperately needed to be a hit, to bring in enough cash to keep them viable) were amazingly shoddy hardware-wise. I bought a Pre on launch week and ended up having it replaced TWICE by Sprint within a month of purchase because of hardware failures. And these weren't weird esoteric issues either, but basic stuff that any QA department worth the name should have caught; one of the Pres I got, for instance, simply couldn't secure its battery in place properly -- the battery compartment was a hair larger than the battery itself -- leading to the phone just shutting down in the middle of a call when the battery slid out of position. Lots of others had the same experience, which killed any chance of early-adopter word-of-mouth generating more sales. Palm eventually got the hardware problems (mostly) sorted, but by that point it was too late; the high defect rates had burned their rep both with customers, who didn't want to buy a phone that was likely to be a brick, and with carriers, who didn't want to be stuck having to service all those returns.

They already have one..

[Dynamoo]

They already have one.. sort of. They've got an environment running on BREW called HTC Sense (they use that name for a lot of things). You can find it in the HTC Smart released last year. And what happened to the Smart? It sank without trace.

Although.. I bought an HP TouchPad in the firesale intending to move it to Android from webOS, but actually it's a nice OS (although it has its limits). There's already an application library for it, not huge, but a good start. It would be a shame to see webOS vanish completely..

Re:that's why i'm going back to iOS

[GigaplexNZ]

Or following your own logic, Motorola is going to drop support for any non-Android phone any day now, which means it's a perfectly stable Android company.

That one is believable since Google is buying Motorola's phone division.

A Phone and Android is not enough

[ControlsGeek]

A Phone and Android is not enough these days. In order to compete you need a network, an Application store and a stream of income that develops from that. Google sucks up all the added value from Android.

Re:A Phone and Android is not enough

[VeriTea]

Mod this comment up. Even if HTC became the dominate Android manufacturer Google would still be cherry picking the profits through their control of the Android app store.

WebOS is a very nice platform with an reasonable selection of *good* apps (1,500 apps might not sound like much compared to 50,000 but if the 1,500 include most of the very popular options you can still have a great experience). The Palm hardware was terrible - always a year behind what the rest of the industry was selling. HTC makes solid cutting edge hardware. I would love to run WebOS on a phone as well built as my EVO 3D.

Re:A Phone and Android is not enough

[Chrisq]

Let me fix that for you.

A Phone and Android is not enough these days. In order to compete you need a network, an Application store and a stream of income that develops from that. Google sucks

Re:Exactly.

[DrXym]

No, they have. They realized that they were completely dependent on Google to draw in customers for them, and that they had no way to differentiate themselves from a half-dozen competitors that are in exactly the same business, not to mention any number of HTC wannabes that could pop up at any moment.

They're not completely dependent on Google. HTC also produce Windows and even BREW phones. Of course it may be those other handsets aren't exactly flying off shelves but then HTC should be asking why they're selling so many Android phones and why they're questioning getting their own OS.

I certainly don't see much merit in using WebOS instead unless HTC are going to go the whole hog and open source it. They simply won't get the interest otherwise.

Re:that's why i'm going back to iOS

[fast turtle]

And yet all of the carriers only offer replacement if a phone goes bad while under contract. Support? The only phones that even have any kind of actual tech support are Win7 versions as you can get an answer from MS, otherwise you might as well buy a plain feature phone instead of any type of smart phone since the carrier isn't going to offer more then replacement while it's under contract.

Re:Why Buy?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I'm assuming that when they say "Buy an OS" they want an OS in the techie sense and all the trimmings: some sort of vaguely consistent UI, a development environment and preferred model for applications, etc, etc.

While not trivial, the strict "OS" bare-metal-to-userspace stuff is more or less a solved and commodified problem. Going with BSD would allow you to avoid the GPL in your kernel; but if your plan is to distinguish your smartphone in the marketplace based on your uniquely awesome proprietary kernel, I have some bad news...

Prolem solved

[Anonymous Coward]

HP-UX for smart phones!

Patents?

[alexander_686]

So they don't realize that they have their position in the cellphone-market BECAUSE they use Android insted of IN SPITE of it?

Maybe they want WebOS because of it’s patents?

Maybe you noticed that there is a bit of a patent race between the Apple / Google etc. as they buy up Motorola etc. It does not do HTC any good to have hitched it’s company to Android and see Apple et. al. shut it down.

With WebOS in it’s back pocket, HTC can threaten to counter sue if anybody sues them.

One just have to love the ill defined patens being issued.

Re:Patents?

[MrNiceguy_KS]

The WebOS patent portfolio would be a powerful weapon to any handset maker. Every patent Palm ever filed? Yeah, that's a lot of patents applicable to handheld devices.

Exclusive

[tepples]

They talk about differentiation while most of their phones look the same, have similar specs and similar prices. HTC Sensation? Just like the HTC Desire HD

Wikipedia claims that the Sensation is a newer phone with a slightly faster CPU and more built-in flash memory than the Desire HD, and the Evo 3D is essentially a Sensation with an autostereoscopic display. Another issue is that some United States cellular carriers demand to have an exclusive phone with an exclusive name. Samsung skirts the carriers' demands in its ads by referring to its carrier-branded versions of the Galaxy S as "Samsung Captivate, a Galaxy S phone", or "Samsung Fascinate, a Galaxy S phone".

Re:Exclusive

[damaki]

Yup, a new CPU, more ram and more flash memory. Still, the difference is so small that Sense 3.0 can run flawlessly on my HTC Desire HD. I know about the brand new dual core architecture, but it's no magical breakthrough.
I did not know about the exclusive-naming in the US, that's an interesting piece of marketing bullshit.

Re:Exclusive

[Movi]

I totally get what you mean, but i think the comparison you wanted is Desire HD -> Incredible S (i own the DHD), where the ONLY difference was a front facing camera, and the enclosure. And the model came out what.. 3-4 months after DHD came out? Same with Desire -> Desire S. And then less than 5 months after the Incredible S, lo and behold, Sensation, which compared to both IS the new generation (dual core processor). But WTF didn't they make the DHD with a FFC and made it the ultimate model for at least half a year?

So yeah, they like to shit out phones like it's nobodies business. But hey! Didn't Nokia do the EXACT SAME THING?

BREW app development hassle

[tepples]

They've got an environment running on BREW [...] in the HTC Smart released last year. And what happened to the Smart? It sank without trace.

One big problem with BREW is that developing applications for it is a much bigger hassle than for Android.

Re:Exactly.

[UnknowingFool]

One thing that HTC has to do if they get their own OS is they have to be willing to build the whole software ecosystem themselves. This is not an easy thing to do. Partnering with others may not work out very well.

What happened to Go Corp.'s PenPoint OS?

[WillAdams]

It was small, efficient, object-oriented and had a very nice interface.

Last I heard, Taiwan's MITI had purchased it, but I've never heard of their doing anything w/ it, nor of anything of it save for Jerry Kaplan suing Microsoft a while back....

Not considering Microsoft tax

[goffster]

I don't really know, but does WebOS have to pay the Microsoft Patent tax ?

This shows how stupid western business have become

[WindBourne]

Seriously, HP, IBM, etc are simply gutting themselves because they have put idiotic MBAs in charge. No real engineers. They would be better off having engineers develop products and then hiring marketers who can sell things, rather than hiring worthless marketers who then grip that they can not sell what engineers produce.

Re:This shows how stupid western business have bec

[RogerWilco]

I actually think that IBM does have vision, and made the right move. The thing about IBM is that it does keep reinventing itself, and the PC was just a stage in its evolution.

HP now tries to mimic that, but it has no clue.

Re:This shows how stupid western business have bec

[WindBourne]

I have worked for both companies. Believe me, IBM's Palmisano is running IBM into the ground. He is as short sighted as HP's Apotheker, but has has a head start.

Re:Exactly.

[Bert64]

Their windows phones are even more dependent on microsoft than their android phones are on google...
BREW i can't speak for, having never heard of it, but that says something about its market share...

WebOS could be good, its a mature platform and has an existing user base, especially since the recent tablet sell-off by HP. It's also linux based, so making it capable of running android apps shouldn't be difficult.

There is another option however, Meego... Having been ditched by nokia, intel might be keen to partner with the likes of htc.

Hurray

[optymizer]

for fragmentation. ffs.

Re:that's why i'm going back to iOS

[Miamicanes]

Does Motorola even HAVE any meaningful non-Android phones that aren't 1-cent throwaways for TracFone and the "Jitterbug" crowd? Google or not, Android is what saved Motorola from irrelevance at the high end of the market.

Google's ownership of Moto probably means they aren't going to START making Windows phones, but it's hard to pull out of a market you were never in to begin with. It would be kind of like accusing Nokia of abandoning Android if Microsoft buys them outright.

Why insist on calling this thing (WebOS) an OS ?

[eminencja]

Why everybody insists on calling WebOS an operating system? I thought HP blew $1.2 bln to buy a JavaScript library (similar to YUI, JQuery, etc.). The underlying OS (Linux) exposed some API through that framework? -- oh my -- big deal.

Re:Exactly.

[PCM2]

The HP example was regarding its PC business, not its phone/tablet business. HP is reportedly trying to exit the consumer PC business, where it completely relies on Windows just like everybody else but Apple.

And, to be accurate, HP didn't produce WebOS, either. Palm did, HP just bought it (and couldn't figure out anything to do with it).

Avoiding the ms-android fee?

[unique_parrot]

could they avoid the microsoft fee for any sold android device if they use webos as an operation system with android compatibility? i got a touchpad and have to admit: webOS is really nice. the apps which exist are excellent.

Re:Avoiding the ms-android fee?

[shutdown -p now]

Steve Jobs *hates* dedicated camera buttons...

Did you miss the memo? A hardware camera button is coming in iPhone 5... not dedicated, mind you - they're reusing one of the volume buttons - but that's a radical departure from the old "do everything with touch" approach.

Of course, we'll soon get Apple fans explaining how using volume buttons to activate camera is the only thing that could possibly make sense, and praise Apple for this wonderful innovation. ~

Re:Avoiding the ms-android fee?

[badkarmadayaccount]

Well located modal buttons has been a mainstay of good phone UI design, something for which Symbian based feature phones have always been good for. The PC approach to phones (one generic UI to rule them all) isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Re:Avoiding the ms-android fee?

[shutdown -p now]

I don't mind them reusing buttons for that. My point is that it's something that iPhone missed for ages which really makes it a lot easier to use it as a camera - but if you asked any Apple fan, they'd tell you that you're too dumb for not being able to use the touch button. In the meantime, there were shitload of custom camera apps in Android store that could do this trick (and IIRC some manufacturers also enabled it in their stock ROMs), and e.g. WP7 phones are required to have a dedicated hardware camera button. Now with the new iOS release, of course, it's an innovative new feature...

Re:Avoiding the ms-android fee?

[badkarmadayaccount]

*sigh* That's what you get with fashion/electronics designers, pretending to be system integrators, dirtying the names of Cray, Sun Micro, SGI, IBM, et al.

Looking ahead, insurance

[SuperKendall]

So they don't realize that they have their position in the cellphone-market BECAUSE they use Android instead of IN SPITE of it?

That was the past. The present is that Google owns Motorola and will be competing with HTC.

Under those circumstances, why would you not want a possible escape hatch? Perhaps nothing will happen. But perhaps something will cause this to be a better idea than it seems at first...

Re:Exactly.

[justforgetme]

I mentioned that one a little higher up in the conv.

Meego could really become a killer OS if catered by the right people. And that OS would be easily a good platform to do dalvic emmulation (aka run andriod apps). The fact that it is open source means anyone with the right tools could just coast up and write a compatibility layer for any other os. So it really has good potential. The problem with meego though is exactly that strength. Open source scares the corporate world like mice do elephants. They just can understand it. So since HTC is looking for a competitive advantage in the OS world good luck explaining to them that a FOSS OS as a baseline is the right way...

HTC - PLEASE BUY WEBOS!

[phonefanatic]

WebOS only needs correct positioning in the market and a new hot selling device (like the Palm Pre back then) with serious techno power under the hood. HTC has proven to be able to do both. Other than that, I'm glad to see the firesale of HP Veer units because in US at least they are all locked to AT&T, which means my hard work in developing the HP Veer Unlocker Software ( http://www.palmunlocker.com/ ) will hopefully pay off!