Maine School District Gives iPad To Every Kindergartner

An anonymous reader writes "'An Auburn, ME school district spent more than $200,000 to outfit every one of its 250 kindergartners with [iPads], along with sturdy cases to protect them. School officials say they are the first public school district in the country to give every kindergartner an iPad. Mrs. McCarthy says the tools give her 19 students more immediate feedback and individual attention than she ever could.' Will this improve low test scores, or be another case where spending more money does not produce a better educational outcome?"

Comments

i must be missing something

[Anonymous Coward]

$200k / 250 students is $800...why would you pay more for less?

Re:i must be missing something

[dmacleod808]

Sturdy cases and apple care?

Re:i must be missing something

[Anonymous Coward]

... along with sturdy cases to protect them.

Re:i must be missing something

[mat catastrophe]

$200k / 250 students is $800...why would you pay more for less?

Anyone mention this yet?

"...along with sturdy cases..."

Re:i must be missing something

[somersault]

Maybe the teachers got some too. Or they're skimming off the top..

Re:i must be missing something

[Anonymous Coward]

$300 for a sturdy case? So, they bought them from a defense contractor?

Re:i must be missing something

[jhoegl]

Well, when you are a kindergarten teacher and you are worried about test scores.... there is something wrong.

My tests consisted of drawing the alphabet (which was above the chalkboard), and sleeping during nap time.

Re:i must be missing something

[mikael]

I guess they must be nuclear blast proof, along with the manually operated kinetic energy transfer devices (hammers).

Re:i must be missing something

[ynp7]

But the real question is, why would anyone think they are "paying more for less" in the first place?

Because they're buying Apple products?

Re:i must be missing something

[PNutts]

Because they probably bought more than exactly 250? Maybe if you had an iPad in elementary school you would be able to reason and search instead of pointless questions.

In May, the Auburn School Department will buy 100 iPad 2s for 80 students and 20 teachers.

This fall, Auburn schools will purchase another 225 so that all 285 kindergarten students, and dozens of teachers, will have them. The iPad 2s will also be used by intervention and special education teachers.

Re:i must be missing something

[PNutts]

But the real question is, why would anyone think they are "paying more for less" in the first place?

Because they're buying Apple products?

Again, less of what?

Re:i must be missing something

[confused one]

You must not be familiar with the kindergartner animal and the damage they can do.

Re:i must be missing something

[confused one]

There is probably management software, educational apps, and e-books included in that price

Re:i must be missing something

[Dunbal]

Are you kidding, at one device per kindergarten they are ALL for the teachers.

Re:i must be missing something

[somersault]

Per kindergartner

Re:i must be missing something

[mikael]

I was going to ask which is the most hostile environment for hardware - a foxhole in a battlefield or an elementary school. At least a soldier will try and protect his equipment. Kindergartenkind will try and use every combination of action and objects at hand.

Re:i must be missing something

[lexsird]

It's a new age, American children need to hit the ground running out of the womb in order to compete versus the vast numbers in China and India. We have to build better everything, and that includes kids. Now if only we are smart enough not to hold these kids back as they blossom and grow under the tutelage of our machine friends. Get with the times Grandpa.

Re:i must be missing something

[jklovanc]

The $200K is not just for the iPads. Here are a few other costs incurred.
1. It costs to install apps and rugged covers.
2. extra insurance
3. Spares
4. Continuing IT support for iPads when people foul them up.

Re:i must be missing something

[anubi]

When I was in Junior High School in the early 60's, I was allowed to maintain the school's public address/intercom system. All vacuum tubes. Lethal voltages.

I knew that. Just as I knew about the power saw in shop class. I knew what guns were too. And explosives. I knew what they were and treated them with due respect.

I don't think anyone gave the situation a second thought.

Its called living in the real world. Common sense. Who of us were not aware of the kinetic energy of a moving car? Even dogs and cats knew of these things.

My school made available to me stuff of a very expensive nature, and let me open it up and see how it worked. I am very grateful to Glenn Peterson, the principal of the Junior High School I attended for the trust he placed in me. I kept that machine working the whole time I attended the school, and that prepared me for my summer job of fixing things at my neighborhood radio repair shop.

I am also aware of just how fortunate I was to be schooled in that time frame. There is no way I could ever get *that* kind of education today. I would have never seen the power of "nature in the raw" that my teachers were able to show me.

Yes, it was dangerous. I could have killed myself touching the wrong thing in that chassis. I could have cut my hand off with the power saw. I could have blinded myself with the drill press. But I didn't.

The worst damage I did to myself during school, all the science labs, all the shop classes, all the experience with guns - the worst was I snapped my ankle during a wrestling match, and to this day still walk with a limp.

I don't think an $800 thingie way beyond my comprehension would have helped much. It was my teachers, and my relationship with them, that made the difference in my life, and that is what I remember.

Re:i must be missing something

[PsychoSlashDot]

It's a new age, American children need to hit the ground running out of the womb in order to compete versus the vast numbers in China and India. We have to build better everything, and that includes kids. Now if only we are smart enough not to hold these kids back as they blossom and grow under the tutelage of our machine friends. Get with the times Grandpa.

Really? You think an iPad will give Western children the competitive edge they need? Here's a free clue:

Indian and Chinese students have one deadly advantage: motivation.

Basically, Western kids can aspire to being mediocre at everything they do, knowing full well that they will thereby enough income to live comfortably well-off for their entire lives. Chinese and Indian kids know that if they aren't amongst a very small percentage of the best of their cadre, they will earn poverty.

Western kids don't need to be taught how to multi-touch gesture-smear on an $800 doo-dad. They need someone to motivate them to compete. Angry Birds and fart apps won't help with that.

Re:i must be missing something

[ChrisMaple]

We absolutely need to rush the education of all infants. Let's start by giving each one a Ferrari.

Re:i must be missing something

[SETIGuy]

Freedom?

Re:i must be missing something

[SETIGuy]

You're mistaking what Kindergarten was when you attended with what it is today. Children entering Kindergarten (at least in this state) are expected to have basic reading and arithmetic skills. If your child can't read and understand simple subject-verb-object sentences and add 2+3 on the first day, they'll end up in the equivalent of remedial courses. If they can't draw their letters, they'll end up in special ed with an occupational therapist.

I'm not claiming that's a good thing, because it gives preferential treatment to parents that could afford a decent academic preschool. Homework is the other plague on elementary school. It just takes time aways from the most important learning experiences children have: outside playing with other children without parents watching. But even if there was no homework modern parental paranoia would prevent that from happening.

Re:i must be missing something

[Intropy]

I don't think it's reasonable to call attending a full size class vs. attending "special ed with an occupational therapist" a form of "preferential treatment." If either is advantaged then it's the latter.

Re:i must be missing something

[lexsird]

I blame parents, because frankly they have no clue, they have been spoon fed reptile brain tripe about how capitalism is their God and proceed to bang their heads against a wall waiting for that "lottery ticket" of sorts to project them to their place in the circle of idols. Hence the values they impart unto their children are lacking because they frankly are lacking any good ones to pass along to them. We are vastly outnumber, and unless we work together as a nation, with goals and utilize all of our assets in concert, we will pass like a shooting star.

Your libertarian outlook is one of a long gone era of frontier-ism. This is a modern world, a smaller world, with limited resources. The days of robber barons setting on top of the heap have to end, lest they will be setting on a heap of burnt trash. If you haven't noticed, China has put the major hammer to us with Capitalism, oh the irony and karma. It seems that we haven't learned the object lesson that "business is war" or "trade is war". We have let our officials whore themselves out to out of control multinational corporations, whom have become the real power on this planet outside of some elements like China, and even that is questionable.

You have been rendered obsolete, American worker. All you are good for now is to wring the last of your countries wealth out of you, so that more of your land can just be bought out from under you with your own money. Please keep cutting the throats of your own people in order to keep your head above water, that is just less that China has to evict when at last you default. Those at the top will just skip off to their luxurious retreats; you don't think gold is at a all time high for willy-nilly reasons do you?

So by all means, keep bitching about education programs, it makes it easier to dominate dumb fucks if they are kept ignorant. I hate to break it to this forum, but just because you post here doesn't make you a genius. Most of you don't even have an original thought, when it comes to these national issues. Factor this, at least they bought IPads, and kept the money here SOMEWHAT in America with Apple. Of course the object lesson of this; tending to the ecology of one's national economy is lost on this generation. It will serve as a cautionary tale for other countries of course, but frankly I am pissed I am going down with the ship with a collective bunch of retards led down the path to destruction by their own greed, played by the Pied Piper of Corporate Greed and the back up band, Government Lackeys.

Take your heads out of the sand, this is the era of "Slash, burn, and liquidate" in American business. They start at the bottom and work their way up. The canary in the coal mine isn't just dead, the damn thing has rotted to bones in it's cage. We've lost something, besides our minds; we have lost an identity as a nation. We aren't a people, we are a collective of fuckers trying to get theirs. That doesn't cut it in the modern world. People need to stop sucking the propaganda tit and look around at the world and get an objective bearing on just how low we have sank. Once it sinks in how fucked we are, we need to examine why. Why is because we have some faulty thinking. Why do we have faulty thinking? Garbage in, garbage out. Figure out what the garbage is and who's shoveling it in your trough. First clue, follow the money.

Re:i must be missing something

[monkyyy]

"Indian and Chinese students have one deadly advantage: motivation."
and parental support that doesn't include emotional growth, they are more dead inside and therefor "better" at following directions w/o question, and putting aside themselves to become a gear for the machine, that may not even be needed

while our emotionally dead children fall to drugs, they push them as far as they can w/o 99% committing suicide

Re:i must be missing something

[Shadyman]

It was my teachers, and my relationship with them, that made the difference in my life, and that is what I remember.

Bingo. You remember the teachers that made positive impacts on your life, for example:

• The teachers that try (even if they don't succeed) to bring out the best in you.
• The teachers that cater to different learning styles.
• The teachers that let you do things you probably shouldn't (as in the parent post)
• The teachers that make class fun (What exactly a "fun" class *is* is open to interpretation, of course, and I would hope that would vary from person to person)

Re:i must be missing something

[Xeranar]

Did somebody seriously just accept and then promote the race to the bottom? Maybe if we starve our children or force them into abject poverty they'll work harder! *flexes his austerity muscles* Or perhaps we simply need to accept the reality of western society as a whole (which frankly includes India and China) are moving towards a middle-class consumer culture and that hard work has always been a questionable ideal since we have millions of accounts where workers since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution did just enough work to live comfortably/feed their families and no more. This whole "work yourself to death" ideology is a propaganda tool used during two world wars where the US had to go 24 hours a day to keep up with demand for war implements with a precursor in the protestant work ethic. Of course the protestant work ethic never existed either, it was merely a tool by protestants to justify their position over other Christians and non-Christians.

I remember as a kid thinking a computer in every classroom would aid and I still do. iPads are relatively costly compared to a desktop but for sheer mobility and the fact that that form factor is beginning to dominate our world then we need to learn to accept it and welcome it into our society. Course test scores aren't everything and the average slashdotter had above average grades but won't stop them from whining about the new aids that show up in the classroom even though they mostly had the advantage of better computers, teachers, and standards living in suburban/exurban US.

Re:i must be missing something

[geminidomino]

Functionality.

Re:i must be missing something

[monkyyy]

stereotypes do affect stats, its holds true for summing up millions of people separated by physical/ cultural/ linguistic/ etc. barriers, while its bad to assume it for a single person since by the fact they are standing alone being judged they are no longer affected by those barriers

and most of the hate comes from people trying to be MORE like them where they fail( the non-rebellious culture) but still ignore the stuff they have us beat by a long shot( family, were here we get mostly broken familys, but the "good" familys are just hiding it to look good)

Re:i must be missing something

[cthulhu11]

Basically, Western kids can aspire to being mediocre at everything they do, knowing full well that they will thereby enough income to live comfortably well-off for their entire lives

Clearly you don't live in a county with 68,000 Microsoft millionaires.

Re:i must be missing something

[SuricouRaven]

Ports. Apple is port-phobic in it's ipads. Can't even plug in a USB storage device or SD card.

Re:i must be missing something

[Joce640k]

This is America, maybe you meant "Corvette".

Re:i must be missing something

[Joce640k]

But the real question is, why would anyone think they are "paying more for less" in the first place?

Because kids that age learn more from playing with mud and cardboard boxes then sitting in neat rows with expensive teaching aids.

Of course, this isn't about education. It's about impressing parents and getting them to open their wallets so the head teacher can get that new BMW he's got his eye on.

.

Re:i must be missing something

[UBfusion]

+1

I'd also add one more equally important factor: those kids have self-discipline. The know when there's time to play and when to work, because for them responsibility, humility, self-restraint, hierarchy and respect are considered as features of the Universe itself, not as rules of the grown-ups.

Re:i must be missing something

[Anne Thwacks]

you forgot dope and hos!

Re:i must be missing something

[node 3]

OMG NO!!! Those poor children!

Re:i must be missing something

[node 3]

Functionality.

Derp!

The iPad is the most functional tablet there is, and the most functional computer for someone of that age.

Think about it, you directly manipulate the screen. What more could someone want?

Re:i must be missing something

[node 3]

Freedom?

Yeah, those poor children, unable to compile their own software! Or is it the lack of pornographic apps you are bothered by?

We're talking about kindergartners here. What sort of "freedom" are they missing out on? Seriously!

Re:i must be missing something

[julesh]

There's more cost than just the hardware: as has already been mentioned, there's going to be software put on these, they aren't just giving out iPads for the hell of it. Also, at a guess, they're insuring them against loss or accidental damage (which, given they're being given to kids, is quite a high risk, so the premium will be pricey). And admin of the scheme won't be free, either -- they'll have to account for the cost of employee time in making the acquisitions and distributing the devices.

Re:i must be missing something

[Stone2065]

Your statement "at least they bought iPads, and kept the money here SOMEWHAT in America with Apple"... you DO understand that those fine iPads you're so proud of, are made in CHINA... right?

About the ONLY thing in your post that I DID agree with was "follow the money". That's ALWAYS been the first clue when you think something is wrong or nefarious. Who is coming out on top of a situation financially? Follow the money. It's not ALWAYS money, but something of value, be it money, power, items, etc. /rant

Re:i must be missing something

[justforgetme]

No pesticides where used for the production of those apples ;-)

Re:i must be missing something

[Dr Max]

If you want them to compete with the Chinese, then why are you giving them apple products that have been shown to retard kids computer learning? Seems to me you want to produce a new generation of consumers not creators.

Re:i must be missing something

[tehcyder]

$200k / 250 students is $800...why would you pay more for less?

$200k / 250 kindergartens is $800 per kindergarten, doesn't have to be 1 machine per kindergarten.

Re:i must be missing something

[tehcyder]

You think an iPad will give Western children the competitive edge they need?

I think teaching Western children how to read, write and do basic maths by the age of five would provide be more productive than buying expensive shiny toys for kids.

Re:i must be missing something

[tehcyder]

This is America, maybe you meant "Corvette".

I think he was talking about proper cars, that can go round corners and stuff.

Re:i must be missing something

[tehcyder]

Oops, it says kindergartner, I've never seen that word before and read it as kindergarten.

Re:i must be missing something

[dcw3]

Curious what state that is. My kid attended one of the top public schools systems in the country, and there was no similar requirement.

Re:i must be missing something

[Coren22]

My kids, who are now 9 and 11, came out of Kindergarten reading some, writing some, and doing addition and subtraction. Things have changed quite a bit from when we were kids.

Re:i must be missing something

[geminidomino]

Hardly, on both counts. For someone of that age, the cheap toy Leapfrog computer I got for my brother's daughter has more to offer her than a soon-to-be $800 paperweight.

For anyone who actually knows what tablets do... yeah, not so much there, either.

Re:i must be missing something

[monkyyy]

no but its one of the highest in the world

Re:i must be missing something

[monkyyy]

" w/o 99% committing suicide"
u skipped "w/o"

Re:i must be missing something

[badkarmadayaccount]

Mod parent up +1 Realist

Re:i must be missing something

[badkarmadayaccount]

Not that I'm a fanboi, but [[citation needed]]. I'm really curious.

Re:i must be missing something

[Dr Max]

I'm sorry mate, I’ve been looking but I can't find it. It happened about a year ago and "study" may have been an exaggeration. It was more of an observation that after the iphone and ipod have been released we aren’t seeing the same kind of technical activity on the web from the younger people that we used too. It's not hard to believe i hate to get all back in my day, but back in my day you had to understand how to install the os, the file structure of the hard drive, what type of files do what, and maybe a little programming in order to get what you want. Now all you have to do is swipe your way through the itunes store and push the picture of what you want to play. Maybe the inner workings of the computer will be less important in the future, especially for the majority; but my kid will be getting the most open, most customisable, most diy platform possible (with their accelerated learning and so much free time what’s to lose).

Re:i must be missing something

[anubi]

Yes... the TEACHER, not so much the stuff, made all the difference.

My teachers taught me well, to make do with what I had.

To improvise that which I did not have.

That was the way to prosper in the early days. Both of my Grandpas, both who were farmers, taught me the same.

My interest in electronics was kindled with old radios the neighbors threw away. Right out of the trash can. Once I found out how they worked, and could reassemble them into other things, well, that's where some really nifty science teachers changed my life forever.

I don't see my neighbor's kids showing up all excited when their science teacher found some old VOM in the school's donation bin and gives it to him.

Today, its all sent to the trash heap and we think we have to spend big bucks for something. The kid would be disciplined for severely if he did to it what I did to the things my science teachers gave me.

It will ....

[Anonymous Coward]

be another case where spending more money does not produce a better educational outcome.

Unfortunately, making classrooms wired has very little to do with overall learning going on in the classroom. It is amazing how much learning actually went on in the one roomed school houses of 100 years ago with a much smaller budget than is spent per-pupil today by even the poorest school systems. If you doubt me, go read early high school text books. Many are sophomore+ college level today.

Re:It will ....

[RoFLKOPTr]

I'm not at all apologizing for our horrible public education system, but there's much more to it than per-student spending. Books are much more expensive, wages are much higher. Those one-room schoolhouses were often owned and operated by the one or two teachers that ran the joint and they were able to handle what little administrative needs there were by themselves. Nowadays we have big schools with scores of teachers, large administrative staffs, etc. Plus you need to keep the facilities maintained and have a maintenance staff on daily duty. The districts have their own administrative buildings and staff as well as the need to maintain a fleet of buses, etc. There are nutritional programs because kids often get their food at school rather than packing lunch, etc.

That all being said, our educational system sucks and is in dire need of improvement... but again, it's not just "per-student spending".

Re:It will ....

[Anonymous Coward]

Pedagogy back then was terrible, though. "Memorize this, then recite it back to me" was most of grade school. College was basically the same thing, but with translations and philosophy. Modern textbooks are written with updated pegagogy in mind.

Re:It will ....

[LynnwoodRooster]

Yes, all that rote memorization of facts and processes led to nothing - no semiconductor development, theoretical physics, nuclear power, aeronautics, travel to the moon, or even this thing called The Internet. Yeah, nothing good ever came from that approach of having young minds - too young to really perform complex reasoning - just memorize basic facts and simple processes like long division and multiplication. Who needs to build a foundation for sound logic and reason - let them try to learn how to reason on their own and discover the facts and foundation at a later date!

Re:It will ....

[iamhassi]

be another case where spending more money does not produce a better educational outcome.

computers do not increase test scores.

Obviously this principal does not read slashdot. Computers have been available for 20 years and so far not one study has proven that they increase learning compared to the same amount of time with a teacher and books.

And this is especially bad for young children like kindergarteners because they need to be asking questions and getting answers, not sat in front of a computer and told LEARN.

If this was my kid's principal I would be trying to get her fired.

Re:It will ....

[iamhassi]

Also I love how the article says:
"Soon, the school will find out if the iPads help or hurt, when they test the kindergarteners' reading and math skills in November."

more than $200,000 to find out if the iPad help or hurt? What if they hurt? $200,000 wasted? Oh no, nevermind, November, and what happens in December? Christmas! All the teachers and their families are getting new iPads!

This is complete and utter BS. They couldn't figure out a way to spend less than $200k to do this little test? Must be nice to burn money like that.

Re:It will ....

[gweihir]

Indeed. Teaching is about people interacting with people and people (children) thinking and experimenting. Computer technology as available today will do more harm than good. If (and this is a big if) working and usable AI will become available at some (distant) time in the future, this may change, but not before.

Even the Internet as "mega library" is only useful when people reach a certain maturity (and I do not mean "age"). The flood of plagiarized homework shows this pretty well.

If these idiots had hired 1 additional good teacher for the money, that would have had positive impact. This will not.

Re:It will ....

[Isaac Remuant]

It's funny because I learned a lot from Computers and Multivac (internet) but no one ever sat me in front of it and told me LEARN, I just wanted to.

If we find a way to make children want to learn, they can pretty much use any means they have available and the wider the variety the better (teachers, internet, books, experiences). Problem is when you think that getting a better resource will automatically get them to want to learn.

Re:It will ....

[Amouth]

by his argument he would - rather than hypothesising that it is a strawman and someone can knock it down, he would observe it happen and learn a lesson.

much like modern chem class where you learn reactions on paper but it isn't till college when you MIGHT get to mix something together. sorry but i had a chem set at home before i was 10. made a lot of interesting things with that.

Re:It will ....

[gmhowell]

One trick is that 100 years ago, if Johnny was too fucking stupid to get book learning, he'd just stay at home, pulling a plow.

Re:It will ....

[isorox]

I'm not at all apologizing for our horrible public education system, but there's much more to it than per-student spending. Books are much more expensive, wages are much higher. Those one-room schoolhouses were often owned and operated by the one or two teachers that ran the joint and they were able to handle what little administrative needs there were by themselves. Nowadays we have big schools with scores of teachers, large administrative staffs, etc. Plus you need to keep the facilities maintained and have a maintenance staff on daily duty. The districts have their own administrative buildings and staff as well as the need to maintain a fleet of buses, etc. There are nutritional programs because kids often get their food at school rather than packing lunch, etc.

That all being said, our educational system sucks and is in dire need of improvement... but again, it's not just "per-student spending".

What happened to economies of scale? Would we be better if we decentralised schooling to a level of 1 school house, 2 teachers, and 40 pupils? This allows local schools on a block-by-block basis in some areas.

Re:It will ....

[zyzko]

What happened to economies of scale? Would we be better if we decentralised schooling to a level of 1 school house, 2 teachers, and 40 pupils? This allows local schools on a block-by-block basis in some areas.

This is a 2-way street. On the other hand you have the seemingly "free" building and no extra fees for janitors etc. in 2 teacher school - but when the bad things happen they happen fast and brutally, mold in one school and pupils getting sick - game over. Two years of not having enough pupils to fill the class and bring in money - game over.

But on the other hand - scaling up doesn't always work as well and one model is not the optimal in all cases. iPads can work for some pre-school if used properly, sure, but in the general...I highly doubt it is the optimal solution (it is a $500 device, even if the book and grayons which would have cost more in dead-tree edition costs half as much (they don't generally) it is still quite an expensive feat...) - but hey, if it works, I'm all for it. But as much as I am a member of the Internet-generation who grew up with the net (well, I'm 32 so it was not exactly pre-school net for me) I am more concerned about the quality of the textbooks and resources to offer diverse enough education from the start - not that iPads can help on it - maybe they will - but from the start the important bit is basics and diversity, later on information retrieval, comprehension and usage of tools available.

Re:It will ....

[thpdg]

Shows how poor our educational system has become if you think that 100 years ago was one room school houses. Around here, 100 years ago was about 1911, you know, large brick schools. Look at the corner stone of the 'old' high school in your town.

Re:It will ....

[Randseed]

...As opposed to understanding how things work but not being able to receite a bunch of facts. Do you want the doctor, for example, that can recite loads and loads of random facts? Or do you want the doctor who can't do that but knows how to look it up, and can actually give you good care, rather than care that was terrific 10 years ago? Thank you. Rote memorization is dead. That is what people don't seem to understand. We can find information in a few seconds that earlier required hours in a library. We need to concentrate on HOW people think rather than memorization. I obviously can't do it, but I wish I could have a school of kids whom I taught HOW to think versus your school of kids who just memorize things. Unfortunately, the disgusting, pathetic, achronistic way that we do testing penalizes people who have good reasoning skills, and rewards those who can do nothing more than recite a book.

Re:It will ....

[LynnwoodRooster]

I want the doctor to understand why things happen; expecting a 3rd grader to have the reasoning and mental maturity to make the decisions a doctor needs is immaterial. But both the doctor and the 3rd grader will benefit from knowing how to do long division and their multiplication tables. Teach the fundamentals until the mind is developed to build upon it an approach that worked for millennia and formed the minds that made our modern society.

Re:It will ....

[SuricouRaven]

Chemistry sets today are not what they used to be. Due to fear of getting sued, any chemical that may be remotely dangerous or harmful is avoided. You don't even get copper sulphate in a lot of them.

Re:It will ....

[AK Marc]

Don't forget that the Republicans are sabotaging public schools with the express goal of harming children to encourage welfare for the rich. NCLB and such are unfunded mandates that take funds and effort and hurt, rather than help students (hoping to make schools so bad that vouchers pass). Over half of money spent on students now is administration, not education.

Re:It will ....

[AmiMoJo]

Yes, all that rote memorization of facts and processes led to nothing - no semiconductor development, theoretical physics, nuclear power, aeronautics, travel to the moon, or even this thing called The Internet.

Those people are hardly representative of the majority. I don't know about the US system but in the UK the majority of people finished school with no qualifications at all back then. They went straight into manual low skill jobs, the majority of which no longer exist because we changed from being a manufacturing based economy to a service based one.

Today we have standards for basic skills that we try to get every child up to, and we aim for 50% completing a university level course. Sure, you can argue over how useful a degree in Sociology actually is, but clearly we now expect the majority of people to go well beyond what we did 50 or 100 years ago.

As it turns out learning by rote isn't very helpful beyond basic spelling and maths. It also isn't very helpful for people who struggle with it (dyslexia for example), but who have other skills that are valuable to our society. I'm not saying the system is perfect, far from it, but it is better than it ever has been for the vast majority.

Re:It will ....

[RoFLKOPTr]

Republicans [...] NCLB and such

That's strange, I remember NCLB receiving extreme bipartisan support. Before you bring your stupid partisan politics into a conversation, make sure you know what the hell you're talking about.

(Disclaimer: I don't affiliate with "either" party, and despise our bipartisan system and people blaming "Republicans" or "Democrats" when really they're all to blame.)

Re:It will ....

[LynnwoodRooster]

As it turns out learning by rote isn't very helpful beyond basic spelling and maths.

The problem, IMHO, is too many new educational approaches are eschewing this basic level of knowledge. They are not teaching basic spelling and math - they gloss over it, or let the student "discover" their own approach. We just had the lowest SAT reading scores ever - and attendance in remedial reading in universities and college is exploding. We're turning out an ever-increasing number of functionally illiterate (and math-deprived) students.

I think the problem is a high focus on advanced learning techniques applied much too early in age. IMHO, learning can be fun and interesting but still rely on rote memorization, and should do that until the 5th grade at the earliest. Expecting an 8 year old child to have the foundation in logic, reason, and the mental development to adequately build upon that foundation in trying to learn their own approach to division, or multiplication, or proper grammatical structure is way off base.

Learning by rote memorization ultimately makes those skills so highly developed they become transparent. Doing the "simple work" of any problem becomes nearly automatic - you are freed up to actually address the more important parts of the problem. You don't have to worry about getting 12.7 times 3.14159 correct, or how to factor a polynomial because you've done it a few thousand times and the answer just comes. You can worry about applying that knowledge.

As a university math prof once told me - it's the first 10,000 integrals that are hard - after that, they get easy. Practice does indeed make perfect, and it frees your intellect to work on the higher level, more logic/reason driven questions rather than working at the basest steps.

IMHO, we should use the first 5-6 years of school to build a VERY strong and firm foundation in linguistics, mathematics, and history. Then use the next 2-3 years to build the skills to apply those foundational constructs - building skills in logic and reason, working on extracting data from word problems and essays to address and refine. Then use the last 2-3 years of your K-12 schooling to build skills in learning HOW to learn. You'll turn out students who are well positioned to continue learning for their entire life - whether that is at a university, at a trade school, or in the workforce.

Consider how you would teach someone to program in C++ - someone who has never programmed in their life. Would you jump right in with pointers and references and operator overloading, or would you begin with basic operations, build on that to methods and members, and then continue from there?

Re:It will ....

[AK Marc]

Of course it got bi-partisan support. It was an education bill. Anyone voting against it would be labeled as anti-child, even if they voted against it specifically because they were pro-education. That the Republicans are much more effective at marginalizing their opponents is irrelevant to naming the party that proposed, and wrote it (well, 1 of three of the "writers" was a Democrat from CA, but Reagan was a Democrat from CA).

(Disclaimer: I don't affiliate with "either" party, and despise our bipartisan system and people blaming "Republicans" or "Democrats" when really they're all to blame.)

I wholeheartedly agree. The partisan system is the downfall of the USA. But, being from Texas (the home of modern school sabotage), it was easy to see Bush's Texas plans being pushed at a national level to harm everyone he couldn't reach from TX. It was just a little more subtle on the national scale so as not to get a pushback or have anyone talk about the elephant in the room. I vote 3rd party every time I can vote for someone who isn't obviously worse than than the Republicarats (i.e., no Nader, because he lied to Congress to get legislation passed he knew would kill babies - I draw the line at baby killers). The US will implode in less than 20 years and become a 3rd world country without basic services and with hyperinflation because the parties can't agree to pay for the services they both work hard on spending money on. The American people would rather support the evil they know than take a chance on good, and so we will get what we deserve (and the survivalist nutters will get their wet dream of societal collapse).

Re:It will ....

[AK Marc]

It's kickbacks for the rich. Sometimes you pay it back, even if it doesn't get you a single more vote. Do you not understand how the system works?

Re:It will ....

[Johann Lau]

Consider how you would teach someone to program in C++ - someone who has never programmed in their life. Would you jump right in with pointers and references and operator overloading, or would you begin with basic operations, build on that to methods and members, and then continue from there?

the question rather is, would you *explain* the basics to them, or have them *memorize* 20 variations on "hello world"..

Re:It will ....

[Dr Max]

The ipad will make some things easy is in the short term but not in the long run. I was never allowed a calculator at that age (even though very good ones existed) because we were expected to learn how to do it our selves. If the todler learns that every time he needs to add somthing it easier to use an app that's what he is going to do for the rest of his life.

Re:It will ....

[tehcyder]

As it turns out learning by rote isn't very helpful beyond basic spelling and maths. It also isn't very helpful for people who struggle with it (dyslexia for example

I don't care what you call it, but being able to spell only comes by rote learning, one way or another. The best way is to read a lot, as this also teaches you about grammar.

Re:It will ....

[tehcyder]

You don't have to worry about getting 12.7 times 3.14159 correct, or how to factor a polynomial because you've done it a few thousand times and the answer just comes.

Are you trying to say that you know what 12.7 times 3.14159 is in the same way that you know what 4 times 3 is? Seriously? Do you know what 11.3214 times 3.64218 is instantaneously too?

Re:It will ....

[dwightk]

In my chemistry class my teacher never made me memorize the periodic table (e.g. name, number, weight) which is all my mom remembers doing in her chemistry class (she remembers memorizing, not the data). I learned plenty and eventually got tired of flipping to the table to look up 12.01 for carbon or what have you. And all the non common elements (or additional data beyond weights) were still there for me to look up when I needed to.

I did go through the usual arithmetic training but I still occasionally have trouble with some basic multiplication despite spending lots of time on memorization (6's 7's & 8's are a little iffy) I would have loved to do some number-sense training instead of memorizing.

Anyway, I kind of agree with you, but at the same time, sooner or later if you actually use the skill (addition, chemistry) you probably won't grind it out with a calculator/periodic table.

Re:It will ....

[dcw3]

Rote memorization is dead.

Learning is not a binary process. The ability to memorize important items is a useful skill that can be learned and improved upon. I'm not advocating against instruction for rational thought, just stating that this theme I've seen on Slashdot against teaching memorization, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm able to do simple math in my head faster than most people can on a calculator, and it's served me well in engineering, at the grocery store, and piloting Cessnas. When you go to the doctor, do they look up the name of that broken bone you have, or is it on the tip of their tongue? Was memorization overdone in public schools...probably, but it's far from dead.

Re:It will ....

[AmiMoJo]

When we stop teaching by rote our test scores go up. If you help children understand how spelling works, for example how to add -ing to the end of a word or how to make a word ending with 'y' plural, they can deal with more than just the ones they memorised. It also helps if they can figure out how to read a new word when they find it because children tend to be put off reading if they struggle with unknowns.

Re:It will ....

[Dr Max]

Fair enough and to be honest these ipads propberly arn't running a caculator but some maths education game. Even if it dosn't harm the kids, I don't see it boosting test scores at that age.

Did we not already go through this?

[betterunixthanunix]

I thought we discussed this two weeks ago, when the New York Times published an article about how all the computers we have dumped into the school system have had negligible results in terms of improving education. Now we are trying the same strategy, but with a different form factor? Are these decision makers even bothering to give thought to how iPads are going to help kindergarden students?

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[ColdWetDog]

I thought we discussed this two weeks ago, when the New York Times published an article about how all the computers we have dumped into the school system have had negligible results in terms of improving education. Now we are trying the same strategy, but with a different form factor? Are these decision makers even bothering to give thought to how iPads are going to help kindergarden students?

Those were computers, these are iPads.

Completely different.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[node 3]

Those were PCs, these are iPads.

Completely different.

FTFY

The methods for operating and interacting with a PC don't fit very well in a standard teaching environment. The screens block the students' views, and the keyboard and mouse add a layer of abstraction between the student and the lesson.

The iPad, on the other hand, is essentially an infinitely reconfigurable, highly adaptable, directly manipulable slate. There's a large amount of potential here, all without many of the hurdles PCs bring to the equation.

Only time will tell, but you're right, in terms of classroom utility, iPads are completely different.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[iamhassi]

I thought we discussed this two weeks ago, when the New York Times published an article about how all the computers we have dumped into the school system have had negligible results in terms of improving education. Now we are trying the same strategy, but with a different form factor? Are these decision makers even bothering to give thought to how iPads are going to help kindergarden students?

Those were computers, these are iPads.

Completely different.

+5, Funny

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[calgar99]

I'm curious what the school system did NOT spend money on that they probably should have. We'll never know, but I wonder how many teacher's positions will have to be sacrificed, or how many extra curricular activities were cut to budget this.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[samkass]

Those were computers, these are iPads.

Completely different.

I know you're trying to be funny, but they really are when it comes to kids. The immediacy of something you touch and hold makes it a much different experience. My sons love to play the Montessori apps which teach various math and writing. The interface is insanely simple and it's instant-on.

I'm not saying it's a perfect use of money (and hey, what about the kids who already have them?), but it is a valid thing to try.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Darinbob]

It's not actually until first grade when the students will get mochaccinos to drink when using their ipads.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Darinbob]

It's a waste of money. ipads are a luxury device. I'm sorry to tell all you hipsters this but these are not mainstream computing devices in the hands of most working class people. These are not even yet being used in the corporate world except by people who buy their own. Why buy students something that is merely a trend? Sure they may help some students but the cost is immense. You could hire three teachers for this amount of money, fix the crumbling classrooms, etc. If its ok to waste this money on frills, then why not buy the students all their own bicycles and put gourmet food in the cafeteria?

If it's a great idea then implement it AFTER you get all the finances in line and the economy is up and running again. When we have record unemployment rates and the quality of US education is ebbing then it is not the time to give a green light to all the crazy ideas that come along.

And why an iPad? Is someone getting kickbacks from Apple? You can get a tablet that does the same stuff for less than half the price. Why pick the most expensive product?

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Culture20]

School officials say they are the first public school district in the country to give every kindergartner an iPad This outweighs any consideration regarding cost or practicality. They're the FIRST. The FIRST! Doesn't that feel good?

Yeah. The fact that they know this means they researched it. The fact that they researched it means being first was probably what they wanted (and since someone else probably already gave them to 1st graders, kindergartners was the next logical step).

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Kagetsuki]

Yeah, iPads will teach the students about limitations - not being able to install software, living in a fully censored world, no options for self compilation, and without a keyboard students will learn that technology is slow and frustrating.

Wait, why didn't they give them something like the OLPC? That's cheaper, durable, has a keyboard, -CAN BE USED AS A TABLET by flipping the screen around and even has a stylus so you can write efficiently with it, has compilers built in by default, and is designed to be used by children for educational purposes. I guess Americans are just teaching their kids to be mindless consumers with as little real technical ability as possible. Seriously, they could have spent $200,000 on a myriad of things that would have better benefited those students, you know like hiring a few teachers that can actually teach instead of providing the bare minimum and hoping expensive bullshit technology will pick up the slack.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[dachshund]

It's a waste of money. ipads are a luxury** device. I'm sorry to tell all you hipsters this but these are not mainstream computing devices in the hands of most working class people.

Yes, today tablets are a luxury device. That may even continue to be the case for as long as the next five years or so. But touch-based computing is going to be as ubiquitous as the keyboard and mouse is today. Kids who become comfortable with it an early age will have an advantage when that time comes. Now, it may not be an insurmountable advantage, and it's hard to quantify, but I'm betting that it will be there.

My parents worked for a university, so we were lucky enough to get a Decwriter II in our house when I was six years old, long before most people had computers in their house. Today I have a PhD in Computer Science.

** Insofar as any highly functional computing that costs only $500 can be considered a "luxury" device. Sheesh, we've become spoiled.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[dachshund]

Mind you I still can't close an HREF tag :)

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Darinbob]

This is a bit like the old fears that have been around. Remember that commercial where the kid has to come home from college on the train because he didn't have an Apple computer? This is a repeat of that way of thinking. These kindergarteners aren't getting this stuff because they need it but because their parents are afraid they might not be ready for the future's job market. The advantage these kids get will be so small as to be pointless. The people who grew up with computers in schools aren't any better at computing than those who grew up without that advantage. The difference is that those who grew up with computers are less intimidated by them is all.

Tablets may not be around in the future since they are just a fad. It's far too early to tell what they're going to do because they're not very common at the moment and are still in early experimental stages. Their uses today are as either entertainment devices or ways to get mail and web access while walking around, hardly something that's a must-have for the future. The main advantage is their portability but smart phones and PDAs and hybrids have tablets beat in this area, and I would think that something related has a better chance of being the big thing a couple decades from now than tablets will.

Maybe touch screen stuff will be around in the future, that seems likely. But you do not need 13 years of educational exposure to touch pads to get an advantage here. If the UIs really are that bad then by the time these kids are in the job market the UIs will have improved. Are there people really that bad at touch screens even with some simple tutorials that they feel their kids must have this now? All the marketing I've seen implies ease of use.

You would have gotten a PhD regardless of whether you had a terminal printer at home or not. Maybe it encouraged you in a particular direction in technology instead of something else (medicine, law), but it was not necessary. I know quite a lot of people with PhDs in CS or EE who did not grow up with computers, and I know people who grew up with computers who are clueless about anything not in the official MS Certificate classes.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Shadyman]

You mean an "A" tag? ;)

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Shadyman]

Though, in all likelihood, some of them will be Jonesing to try their hand at the iPads again in 20 years because they're itching for some retro amusement.

/Scary thought, huh?

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[treeves]

Yeah. He probably got a lot of HREFs on all his report cards.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[cthulhu11]

I've yet to see a school district that wouldn't be better off without the out-of-touch administrative overhead. $200k given to the teachers so that they could, say, make an appreciable fraction of what garbage collectors do would have a more direct effect on the kids' education.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[UBfusion]

The kindergarten is a walled garden by definition - so Apple products are the obvious choice. But I don't expect the kids to compile themselves anytime soon.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[AK Marc]

It's all about the software and such. Textbooks and such don't help either if they are crap. A few good educational apps and they will help. I've put some good puzzle games on my phones for our kindergarten aged child, and he's big into puzzles, hard ones with a good 3D spacial component. A few more aimed at literacy and math, and it could be a great help. Homework in an ap, no lost homework, connecting with classmates to share and help each other with homework and other collaboration stuff.

Your inability to imagine how it could help is a poor argument against it. Yeah, they probably screwed it up, but you can't teach without materials, and there's nothing wrong with updating materials.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[don.g]

Let's try that story, a few years later:

My Dad was an electrical engineer, and bought an old ZX Spectrum. They were as old as I was; when I was 8, I learnt to program one; now I have an MSc in Computer Science.

The difference: ZX Spectrums were cheap mass-produced computers. For your generation, getting access to computers at a young age was hard. For mine, it was (relatively) easy. iPads are not such a radical departure from the PC of today that kids (or anyone else) who aren't exposed to them will be behind in 5 years if tablets become ubiquitous.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Kagetsuki]

Har har, and the self compile thing I agree with for kindergarten children but I was using a pokecon [see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_computer ] in grade school so self compile could easily matter in a few years. There's actually a pokecon emulator for DSi/3DS. With the whole Apple BS about interpreters and whatever I doubt you'll ever see one on iOS. Oh, and may I just mention the Digital Textbook standard in Japan - originally established more than 15 years ago - includes scripting functionality and in turn is still not available on iOS (or so I hear). Sharp realized this and released the Android based Galapagos tablet - which you can get many standards school textbooks on and performs that and other functionality so well India is using it as the basis of their digital textbook program.

All I can say is I'm glad I'm not raising my kids in America.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[UBfusion]

"I don't expect the kids to recompile themselves" was a joke on parent post "no options for self compilation" (self-compilation vs. program compilation) :-)

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[julesh]

Don't know why you've been modded troll, perhaps just a little too enthusiastic about the abilities of the iPad, but in essence I agree. With one added thought: kindergarteners are unlikely to be able to use a traditional PC without actually being taught how to use its input devices (I suspect that most won't have used one before, at least in the earlier years). A touchscreen, however, is intuitive enough that with the right software you can just give one to the kid and they can actually figure it out themselves. Particularly if it has voice prompts, rather than just textual information on screen.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[julesh]

You can?

What tablet can you buy that is equivalent to the iPad for half the price?

How about this one?

Sure, it lacks some of the refinement of the iPad (it's not a multitouch screen, for a start), but it should do everthing a kindergarten kid would need.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[jo_ham]

Right, so returning to my point - "what tablet can you buy that is equivalent to the iPad for half the price?" and your answer is one with a smaller screen, weaker CPU, no multitouch, a quarter the amount of storage space, and a battery with 2.5 times smaller capacity.

So, in other words, not that one. Whether it should be adequate for a kindergarden student is not the issue - the OP said very specifically:

And why an iPad? Is someone getting kickbacks from Apple? You can get a tablet that does the same stuff for less than half the price. Why pick the most expensive product?

Which is clearly not true. Many have tried, all have failed. Everyone crowed that the iPad was "so expensive" (despite the actual price of it when first announced being a lot less than the figures being touted as "most likely"), and the common slashdot suggestion was that any day there would be a cheaper, better, faster Android tablet - and it took until the release of the iPad 2 to get it, and all they managed to do was match the specs of the iPad 2. Couldn't even get it in cheaper.

It's taken until the Eee Pad Transformer to come in under the price of the iPad, and I'd say if the goal of the school was to equip their students with tablets they would have looked at all the options, including a fleet of those (they are $100 less at retail, per unit), but it's not just the raw hardware cost to be considered here.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Dr Max]

Your right tablets are only a fad. Once we figure out hd heads up displays no one will even remember tablets. Time to patent air dialling, i think so.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Johann Lau]

"connecting with classmates to share and help each other with homework"

hahaha, you're right, that was simply not possible before :P

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[AK Marc]

Yeah, we should abandon phone subsidies for the poor because, despite the fact that they are considered a necessity, we managed thousands of years prior to their invention. Or, we could admit that doing the same thing in a new way is new (except when the jackasses are trying to patent non-novel inventions).

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Ol Olsoc]

Yeah, what we need is a tablet that acts like a pc. Updates that brick the pad. An "important update" that makes everyone stop and update, then you have to reboot the things. New Operating systems that don't operate like the old ones, and just by the way, necessitate buying all new pads just to do the same thing the old ones already did. And all the fun stuff that will bring the class to a screeching halt while making a panic call to the IT guy. Brilliant!

Let's pay attention here, Slashdotters. These things are learning tools - they aren't there to teach the kids how to use computers or to load programs or to jailbreak or program C++. They are for learning the stuff we learned via other methods before. Homework preparation should be enhanced. The teacher can load the questions into the class plan, the kids can see what the homework is, (I was continually doing the wrong pages in the book when I was in school) and all kinds of other stuff.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[Johann Lau]

what does this have to do with the poor? you said something hilarious, I laughed, no need to drag the poor into it -- other than of course indicating that deep inside you KNOW you drank the kool-aid. how does an ipad (and hey, just because I'm nice let's not even consider the *actual* context, one ipad per kindergarden (which accomplishes fuck all that benefits those kids, and accomplishes a lot for apple)) enable people who are physically present to "share" and "collaborate"? "oh wait, let me just send you this file, instead of simply showing you a piece of paper"? I have zero against tech for kids, but this is just mindless, which of course is a grrrrrreat start for educating little ones, they'll fit right in..

and actually I was also thinking of *copying* homework, you know? "collaborating and sharing", heh ^^ and I'd say copying the homework from a classmate before the break at least teached you to write quick (or under your desk), while pushing a file over to another ipad teaches you nothing :P

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[jo_ham]

Acer Iconia: nowhere near half the price. Cheapest I can find it online is £300 (to the iPad's £399 for similar spec), and that's from a retailer who is "discounting" it so it looks like it's £50 cheaper than the other online stores but charging £50 shipping. From the big name online stores (Amazon etc) it is slightly more.

Notion Ink Adam: unavailable online it seems. Can you even buy this? On the Notion Ink main page I have to log in as a customer if I want to see the store page! Great way to attract customers - don't even let them browse unless they register. I can see why it's selling so well.

Nook Colour: Nowhere near iPad specs, and still not nearly half the price.

Still waiting for a tablet that has the same features as the iPad for half the price.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[tehcyder]

Those were computers, these are iPads.

Completely different.

I know you're trying to be funny, but they really are when it comes to kids. The immediacy of something you touch and hold makes it a much different experience. My sons love to play the Montessori apps which teach various math and writing. The interface is insanely simple and it's instant-on.

I'm not saying it's a perfect use of money (and hey, what about the kids who already have them?), but it is a valid thing to try.

The thing about tablets is that they avoid all that pesky "having to be able to read and write" shit that gets in the way of starting up "AngryBirds".

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[tehcyder]

And why an iPad? Is someone getting kickbacks from Apple? You can get a tablet that does the same stuff for less than half the price. Why pick the most expensive product?

Ssshhh, you're only allowed to say that about Microsoft products here.

Re:Did we not already go through this?

[badkarmadayaccount]

Oh, please - Commodore 128 equivalent laptops with monochrome displays and good documentation would be a much better start - hell, put in different ISAs - 6502, m68k, Z81, B5000, ARMv1, S/360.

What happens when they break? Or get stolen?

[seifried]

Does the kid get another? Do they have to pay? What a mess.

Re:What happens when they break? Or get stolen?

[Ariven]

Prolly the same thing that was set up when my daughter got a laptop in high school. If you don't pay a small fee ($50 in our case) for insurance at the beginning of the year, the parents were liable for the replacement cost of the item.

Re:What happens when they break? Or get stolen?

[dcollins]

Maine has already been giving every junior-high student in the state a laptop for the last 10 years. From a relative who works in a school district there, I understand that there's a shipment in & out every morning of broken laptops and replacements.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25782209/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/t/maine-laptop-every-middle-schooler/

Re:What happens when they break? Or get stolen?

[AmberBlackCat]

I personally think the older sister, brother or parent, who will probably be using the device much more often than the 5-year-old it's assigned to, should be responsible for taking care of it.

Re:What happens when they break? Or get stolen?

[Kenja]

So...

1. Pay 50$ "insurance" get free iPad.
2. "Lose" iPad on eBay.
3. Get new iPad.
4. GOTO 1.

Re:What happens when they break? Or get stolen?

[node 3]

So...

1. Pay 50$ "insurance" get free iPad.
2. "Lose" iPad on eBay.
3. Get new iPad.
4. GOTO 1.

Correct, like pretty much any system whatsoever, there's the potential for someone to commit a felony. Don't you think there are measures in place to mitigate this? Should we not try something new because someone might commit fraud and theft?

Re:What happens when they break? Or get stolen?

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Hey, remember when they banned metal lunchboxes?

Re:What happens when they break? Or get stolen?

[tidepool]

Hey, remember when they banned metal lunchboxes?

HAHAHA.

Good call. Just waiting for the iPad assault charges news article to be linked.

Re:What happens when they break? Or get stolen?

[Krau Ming]

like stealin' ipads from a baby.

Re:What happens when they break? Or get stolen?

[SuricouRaven]

Doable on any normal PC, but remember that an iPad is utterly useless without iTunes. There is no other way to get media onto it, no way to buy apps without an iTunes account. All the school need do is keep a record of the iPad's unique identifier, and inform Apple if one is stolen. Then as soon as the new user tries to install apps or media, Apple knows and can block it or inform the local police. One of the upsides of the manufacturer having what is effectively a remote killswitch - at least it can be used as an anti-theft measure.

Same as always.

[khasim]

Will this improve low test scores, or be another case where spending more money does not produce a better educational outcome?

That depends entirely upon the software/content that the kids will be running.

Otherwise it will only be a distraction.

Also, has the school invested in some means of recovering these when they are stolen from the kids? Or is it a distraction toy that also makes them a target for crime?

Re:Same as always.

[rolfwind]

In less than 20 years, there will be iPad level capable devices, thinner, running color e-ink, which will cost $30 or less. Then it will no longer be a question of money, breakage, or if they get stolen. Bookbags will change noticeably (thinner) and might become a niche industry catering exclusive to outdoor gear sometime later like buggy whips.

IMO, the apps of course can range from poor to excellent, as well as serving as textbooks (hopefully copylefted or otherwise open). I just hope something and more comprehensive than Rosetta Stone comes out, and for much less money.

The challenge will be keeping students off the internet. (And no, internet/wifi blocking won't do much against 3G/4G signals unless you're willing to block whole classrooms or schools). Oh well, there were always those who squandered their learning years.

Re:Same as always.

[Threni]

> might become a niche industry catering exclusive to outdoor gear sometime later like buggy whips. ...and screens you can use outdoors!

Re:Same as always.

[SuricouRaven]

Schools are terrified of legal risks. If they have to line the entire building with wire mesh and put metal grills over the windows in order to keep the porn out, then they will. Or more realistically, they'll just ban the students from using any electronic device in school that isn't provided, maintained and and configured by the school.

Re:Same as always.

[houghi]

What if it is stolen several times from the same kid. Will he be forced to pay for it? What if it is due to 'food money' he needs to pay other kids? Then you would be punishing him by giving a new one.

Re:Same as always.

[UBfusion]

Software and content are necessary but not sufficient for this scenario - you need teachers that are not technophobic and adequately trained. I wonder how many of them have ever used a smartphone.

Re:Same as always.

[Dr Max]

heads up display glasses, possibly brain computer interface.

Re:Same as always.

[tehcyder]

IMO, the apps of course can range from poor to excellent, as well as serving as textbooks (hopefully copylefted or otherwise open)

My fear is that in another generation there won't be any textbooks at all, just llists of links to wikipedia handed out by people with hundreds or thousands of children to "teach".

ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just a slightly harder and more expensive learning resource to hit one's classmates over the head with.
I expect them to last about a week (the ipads and the kindergarteners).

Who keeps them?

[Mike Mentalist]

So do they stay at the school at the end of the day? I would have that they would be too expensive and fragile for kids to take around with them, even with the cases.

Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is dumbing down a hidden agenda? Not just in the USA but in the western world? I live in NZ, and believe it is so. the 20ish year olds I come into contact with seem to know almost nothing that I learned 20 years ago. They also question nothing and just accept things. Dumber people are easier to control so maybe it is policy some where.

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[ThorGod]

Is dumbing down a hidden agenda? Not just in the USA but in the western world? I live in NZ, and believe it is so. the 20ish year olds I come into contact with seem to know almost nothing that I learned 20 years ago. They also question nothing and just accept things. Dumber people are easier to control so maybe it is policy some where.

It's easier to be ignorant when you're already pretty well off. But, there are very definite societal issues involved. Here in the US, there's a rampant bullying problem in the schools that reinforces a negative view toward education, in general. AFAIK the bully culture's been here for decades, so I don't know if that says anything.

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[gweihir]

I thought that for a long time. By not I do not think it is anything controller or intended, but rather an emergent property of modern advertising, politics and media. There are still those that consider learning worthwhile and invest the time.

I had the privilege of teaching (college) students like that the last two years. But this is evening-college and these are students that already work. They invest two evenings and most of the weekend and cannot be compared with regular students. They do really know why they are doing it. With them, I have 1-2 really good students and 5 motivated students in a total of 10. With ordinary students (university this time), my experience is more like 2-3 good and/or motivated one in 10. But even these are a selected group.

What I think is progressively missing is a general sense that working on yourself and your skills and insights is something that is highly desirable and makes you a better person. All the other benefits follow. Many children and young adults today think they have seen it all already and do not even try. It is really tragic.

If this economic downturn continues, one of the few good things I can potentially see coming out of it is that people will hopefully take less things for granted and try harder. Or at least in Europe. For the US, there is a real risk of the religious nuts gaining a lot more followers, which will make things even worse. Watching the slow demise of the US is also something really tragic. I hope this can still be turned round, but somehow I do not think so.

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[0123456]

Is dumbing down a hidden agenda?

Hidden?

Dumbing down has been the real goal pretty much since the beginning of compulsory schooling in the West; the schools were intended to pump out compliant factory workers.

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[Randseed]

I'm a doctor and one of the things I can contribute is this: If you think for a second that our society is NOT catering to dumbasses, look at any drug commercial on TV. Thank you. Move on. Avoid the vomit I just put to the right.

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[CodeBuster]

Here in the US, there's a rampant bullying problem in the schools that reinforces a negative view toward education, in general.

Which persists here in the US due in large part to a namby-pamby culture that exists in our public schools; where every child, whether deserving or not, is treated with kid gloves. The bullies get away with virtually anything they wish while their victims are punished instead. What needs to happen is for our children to be told early on about how society deals with those who can't or won't exercise self restraint. Tell them how uncivilized and uneducated thugs end up in federal prisons for some of the longest terms in the western world with those who are twice and thrice as tough as them. Inform them that legions of hungry and ambitious children in India and China are just itching for a chance to eat their collective lunches when they grow up. Finally, tell them all that if they fail to meet expectations, society will discard them without pity or mercy for being stupid or lazy. This is the truth and there is power in it for those who learn it early. Of course, the utter impotence of our teachers' unions and the liberal bullshit that is spoon fed to our children in public schools virtually ensures that only the children of the wealthy, who can afford an elite education in private schools with tutors, ever learn theses things soon enough to be competitive. The US is being soundly beaten in education because we fail to discipline our children and we waste vast sums of money ensuring that every student meets a low minimum standard instead of identifying the best and most worthy students early and advancing them fully for the future benefit of society, as the Indians and Chinese do, even at the expense of the "slow" ones. Not every child is going to become an entrepreneur, scientist, engineer, doctor or lawyer (we have too many lawyers anyway). An education system which recognizes this and allocates resources efficiently and effectively, by advancing the best and most worthy students while discarding the losers, benefits society more than one that's based upon equality of underachievement; as it is here in the United States. So tell the children the truth. Tell them that every one of them has a chance, but that outcomes aren't equal and only those who seize upon the opportunities and make the most of them will succeed in school or life.

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[NetNed]

Dumbing down has been a political agenda for years. If you can see that, then you are a product of this system. You may not be dumb in a sense, but you are sure blind to the facts that our education systems turn out less and less competent people in to the world. A person less likely to seek the truth through education is less likely to question political corruption.

Proof is easy to find. Look at what public districts spend per child each year, then compare the cost to what a private school would cost. 9 times out of 10 the public school spends more, yet they turn out less educated children then their private counterparts.

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[Adambomb]

Hell, I'm not even American and even I know this was basically laid out by Woodrow Wilson as a GOAL back when he was kicking about.

Let us go back and distinguish between the two things that we want to do; for we want to do two things in modern society. We want one class of persons to have a liberal education, and we want another class of persons, a very much larger class, of necessity, in every society, to forego the privileges of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks. You cannot train them for both in the time that you have at your disposal.

source

Hey the concept is only 102 years old, as far as american politicians are concerned..

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[gweihir]

My perspective is different as it is European. The dumbing down is happening as well here, but the reasons are not clear-cut at all. As I said, I used to think this was intentional. However I find less and less proof for that. Schools are not that much worse than when I went to school 25 years ago. Still, pupils are less willing to learn and generally learn and understand less. The phenomenon is real, no doubt. I just don't see a hidden agenda behind it anymore. What I do see is that politicians are also affected and get dumber and dumber.

There is also the effect that teachers get dumber. This would explain dumber children as well, but obviously cannot be the only reason.

One possible reason I can see, is that the world has gotten progressively more complicated, also because everyone sees a lot more of it now. I suspect quite a few people just give up on trying to understand things and many other give in to superstition and easy explanations. This does of course hinder development of reasoning capabilities in the first place. I suspect this effect is rather strong today with children.

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[gweihir]

I said I do think so. Fortunately drug commercial are illegal here (and I have avoided television for the last 8 years, I just could not stand the stupidity anymore), but I have seen a few of the commercial you refer to when traveling to the US. It is the "easy fix" phenomenon all over, when most of the conditions referred to do not require treatment or can be addressed with simple lifestyle changes. And of course these drugs do not cure, that would be bad business. At least as a non-MD that is my impression.

I do just not see the hidden agenda anymore. I think this is a far more fundamental thing that happens here. Maybe the human race is failing as a whole. Maybe evolution has been sabotaged enough by safer living and medical capabilities that do increase the changes of idiots to have children.Or maybe the world has gotten complicated enough that many people turn to superstition and easy explanations.

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[A beautiful mind]

It's all a bit condescending isn't it? There is a reason why drug commercials shouldn't be permitted to be broadcast to the general public, but that doesn't mean people in general are dumbasses.

Doctors while an entirely different ballgame with regards to drug related propaganda, they still fail on average pretty hard in trying to understand basic study design and statistics. Read Ben Goldacre's excellent book, Bad Science, especially the 10th chapter. If what's in there is not news to you, then maybe you're one of the more qualified doctors, however you can't say with a straight face that the average doctor doesn't fail pretty hard at reading an industry-sponsored study with a good understanding of the underhand tactics and subtle details.

(I'm not a doctor, however I do understand fairly advanced statistics and I read methodology sections and study designs in various areas for fun.)

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[Ol Olsoc]

Pah - the bullying is nothing new. When I was in Junior High in the 60's, when men were men and we could make it to the moon, it was just the same. I was a big kid, but taught by my parents that "It takes a bigger man to walk away from a fight". So I did. Several times every day. School wouldn't do anything about it, but did tell me that I would be suspended if I did anything. Weird that they allowed other kids to assault me, but not even defend myself.

Finally, one day after putting up with crap, and having decided that "This ends here", some poor idiot decided to come up and hit me on the back of the head. I turned around, and he took the stored up anger that he and his buds inflicted on me. I beat the shit out of him. Looked like that scene where the kid snaps from "Christmas Story "- only I wasn't crying, I was yelling at him, asking how he like it. I also noticed the other kids were happy to see me dispatch him. Turns out I was pretty good.

Yup, got sent to the Principle's office. Got suspended for three days. So did he. On the way out, I guess I was still feeling my oats, because I stopped him, and told him that I really enjoyed beating him up, and if any of his friends wanted some of the same, just stop by. Otherwise I just wanted left alone.

And I was left alone after that.

Amazingly, the same thing happened with my son. And sad to say, the solution was the same.

I don't believe it is a problem of the schools. My son did homework every night for something like 5 hours. And it was real, nothing dumbed down.

I'm convinced that the culture is the problem. Why become a scientist, or engineer? They work long hours, and don't get paid much (misleading, but perception)

Become an MBA, and you'll be making it hand over fist. Become a lawyer. They at least charge for all the time.

Or the holy grails - Become a sports star. You can make more money in a year than most make in their lifetime.

Finally, the creme de la creme - become an entertainer. You have hit the mother lode, man!

Our culture has drifted away from the idea of working for our money, and drifted toward the idea of becoming rich for "playing". Despite the fact that almost no one becomes a professional athlete, and we are now swamped with MBAs and Lawyers, and we import technical and science people from other countries.

We have lost our vision.

Re:Dumbing Down is hidden agenda?

[tehcyder]

Is dumbing down a hidden agenda?

Hidden?

Dumbing down has been the real goal pretty much since the beginning of compulsory schooling in the West; the schools were intended to pump out compliant factory workers.

What a load of bollocks. Compulsory education was and is designed to give children at leas a basic level of literacy, which then makes it possible for them to go on and read about politics, history, economics, science or whatever.

Do you seriously think it is better for children to be unable to read and write unless they're fortunate enough to have rich/intelligent parents?

Oh look a shiny device

[Haedrian]

Which I can touch and has applications on it. I sure won't be distracted and end up playing with it instead of paying attention in class.

Also, they're Kindergardners... What a waste of money and effort. Kids in their age shouldn't be allowed near easy-to-drop devices. They should be outside playing instead.

Re:Oh look a shiny device

[SuricouRaven]

But what if they trip, land on their face and suffer a disfiguring injury to their nose? The parents could sue for millions in compensation.

Where did the money go?

[Anonymous Coward]

$800 per student. iPads are $450. Even without the bulk/educational discount they should be getting, I can't imagine a case costing $350.

Re:Where did the money go?

[jklovanc]

The $200K is not just for the iPads. Here are a few other costs incurred.
1. It costs to install apps and rugged covers.
2. extra insurance
3. Spares
4. Continuing IT support for iPads when people foul them up.

Add all that up and 200K is cheap

Re:Where did the money go?

[drosboro]

The bulk discount is about $10 per iPad, I'd guess. The case might be $50, they're hopefully budgeting a good chunk of cash for apps from the Volume Purchase Programme, and then there's infrastructure (perhaps they've bought AirPrint printers for classrooms so kids can print their artwork, etc). They're probably using some sort of cart to store iPads / charge / sync them to a bunch of MacBooks or iMacs they also would have had to buy. It adds up pretty quick.

Awful value.

[melikamp]

This is crazy, as in a crazy bad value. iPad is just a toy. An $800 toy that spies on you for Apple Corp. Instead, and for half as much, they could have given every kid something like a Dell Mini with Ubuntu.

Re:Awful value.

[That Guy From Mrktng]

Why not Gentoo? everybody knows how kindergarten dwellers love to compile shit.

sudo me_want_apple_juice now -h

Re:Awful value.

[istartedi]

An $800 toy that spies on you for Apple Corp.

Johnson, get in here. Our statistics show dramaticly increased consumer demand for graham crackers, milk and sleeping mats. Call Amazon and let them know.

Re:Awful value.

[0racle]

Your order of tinfoil hats is ready.

Re:Awful value.

[Kagetsuki]

My kids use Linux. They are 3 and 5. I didn't teach them either, the watched me using it and very quickly got used to it. Kids aren't stupid, but parents/teachers who spend lots of money to give them technology that limits them are.

Re:Awful value.

[node 3]

My kids use Linux. They are 3 and 5. I didn't teach them either, the watched me using it and very quickly got used to it. Kids aren't stupid, but parents/teachers who spend lots of money to give them technology that limits them are.

Not knowing how to use Linux doesn't mean you're stupid.

*Your* kids know how to use Linux (and you did teach them, by them watching you), but Linux is wholly inappropriate for a general classroom of kids that don't come from geek families.

Re:Awful value.

[Kagetsuki]

You are absolutely wrong and I'll tell you why:
1. The generic Gnome desktop is absolutely no more confusing, and arguably more intuitive than Windows. The same could be said for Unity or Gnome Shell vs OSX.
2. Software installation is significantly easier.
3. No annoying popups, no uncontrollable restarts for software updates, no constantly hunting for drivers, services like FUSE and CUPS make device and network connectivity far simpler than on Windows.
4. With distributions like Ubuntu, even the installation is simpler.

It's obvious you haven't used Linux in a while, or you haven't seen how clean and easy distributions like Ubuntu, Mint, etc. have become. It's not just my kids using it by the way, my mother in law had constant malware problems and the computer was old - I said try Ubuntu on it and if she didn't like it buy a new computer. She's been using Ubuntu now for 2 years and she doesn't really even know the difference. I didn't teach her anything, and her calls for help have gone from one every few weeks to none. I'm sure many other people here have similar stories. Anyway the point is kids in kindergarten can use Linux, and I for one would argue it's more usable than at least Windows, and without the artificial limitations of OSX.

Re:Awful value.

[node 3]

You are absolutely wrong and I'll tell you why:

<a bunch of mindless drivel about Linux vs Windows, even though the discussion is about Linux vs iPad>

You do realize we are talking about iPads vs netbooks running Linux, right? But even if we pretend for a second that the topic is Linux vs Mac, Linux gets its ass beat, gift-wrapped, and handed to it on a silver platter. And Linux vs Windows is still an absurd comparison, only less so. There's no wrapping paper and the tray is plastic stolen from a mall food court. The ass-whooping is the same though.

It's obvious you haven't used Linux in a while, or you haven't seen how clean and easy distributions like Ubuntu, Mint, etc. have become.

No, it's obvious that I'm not a fool who thinks that everyone's a nerd. Those things that you think are "easier" are not. They are, at *best*, more precise and you know exactly what you want and how to do it. Linux is not a "one size fits all" system. It's not even close.

It's not just my kids using it by the way, my mother in law had constant malware problems and the computer was old - I said try Ubuntu on it and if she didn't like it buy a new computer. She's been using Ubuntu now for 2 years and she doesn't really even know the difference. I didn't teach her anything, and her calls for help have gone from one every few weeks to none.

Just to be clear, all you did was say "try Ubuntu" and did absolutely nothing whatsoever to her computer and gave her absolutely zero advice or assistance?

Please, be 100% honest here, and not just another lying sack of shit like every other Linux nerd who gives a similar story that either leaves out the fact that they installed and set up the system, set up the mail and web browser and showed how to shutdown the computer, and all the person in question ever does is read email and browse the web, and has also learned to resign themselves to not being able to run any of the software that they run across but are too polite to complain about it to you *OR* you've left out the fact that the person in question is a nerd too, and has strong technical aptitude, and are just using a term like "mother-/father-in-law" to make them seem more feeble and make Linux seem all the more broadly appealing.

I'm sure many other people here have similar stories.

Yes, there are at least hundreds of nerds with similar "stories", where pertinent details have been blindly overlooked or strategically omitted in order to portray a false narrative to support the absurd notion that Linux is really the best consumer-oriented OS out there!

Anyway the point is kids in kindergarten can use Linux,

Really? All that for this point? Because I'm sure I said there are such kids in the post you were replying to. However, Linux is wholly inappropriate for general usage, be they adults, children, or the elderly, or any other age group. Linux is designed by, and for, a specific type of person. Quit trying to convert everyone to something that is unsuitable for them. Linux serves *you* very well. Why not let people use what they prefer? What's so difficult to understand about that?

and I for one would argue it's more usable than at least Windows, and without the artificial limitations of OSX.

And *that* makes you a raving lunatic. Nobody gives a shit about the "artificial limitations" of OS X, and Linux is significantly less usable than even Windows, let alone Mac OS X or iOS.

Re:Awful value.

[PetiePooo]

I think you missed the point. Entirely. By a huge margin.

My three year old can use the iPad. His grandmother watched in amazement while he turned it on, went to the home screen, scrolled through it until he found is favorite ABC words game, ran it, adjusted the volume, and started tracing the letters to spell out some basic words. And that was last year. AT TWO YEARS OLD!

I love Linux. I'm all for teaching kids to use it when they're ready to. I used it as my primary desktop for over a year until I reluctantly switched to a Mac for better business app support. But I don't think my three year old would be interested in Ubuntu on a Dell Mini.

Unless you've used an iPad and have kindergarden aged kids, STFU.

Re:Awful value.

[badkarmadayaccount]

The GPP is getting at it from the wrong angle - these kids will grow up using Apple - they are the next generation fanbois - God help us all.

Yet another shining example...

[Anonymous Coward]

...of technology in schools for technology's sake. Kindergartners are 5 years old. They eat boogers, play doh, and pee their pants occasionally. They spend half the day with coloring books and inflatable alphabet letters, and the other half of the day running around on a playground.

It just boggles my mind that someone thought this would be a great idea, that other people signed off on it, and that it was ever made real. Give 'em all those fat, flat-sided crayons that won't roll off the desk and a Big Chief writing pad, teach them how to write properly and interact with the physical world. Maybe in the future I can read comments on Youtube and other forums without gouging my eyes out from reading the grammatical nightmare that today's teens and tweens throw up. /not too old, just old school

Re:Yet another shining example...

[brantondaveperson]

I don't disagree with your general point, but at five most kids are a bit beyond the eating play-doh stage and should be starting to learn to read & write.

Also, where do you get inflatable alphabet letters? They sound great.

Wasted money

[Scutter]

Meanwhile, I'm still having to supply basic community-use classroom materials that the school should be supplying (kleenex, hand sanitizer, paper towels, etc.).

Re:Wasted money

[cyberstealth1024]

mod parent up to +6. I'm in the same boat and totally agree.

Re:Wasted money

[DNS-and-BIND]

This is where America would benefit from a more socialist method of wealth redistribution between schools districts.

Re:Wasted money

[QuasiSteve]

While I'm no fan of iPad hand-outs (the NL Senate just got a bunch and I'm left wondering why they wouldn't just opt for a more open model.. given that they have to pay for the dev anyway, it doesn't matter much if that's on iOS or Android or whatever), and on the other hand I'm not knowledgeable enough about whether or not the devs and apps are in place for kindergarten (that's little kids, right? tablets of any sort for little kids? what?) to say "they should have gone with a Dell Mini with Ubuntu" like that dude further up the replies, I do know this...

Meanwhile, I'm still having to supply basic community-use classroom materials that the school should be supplying (kleenex, hand sanitizer, paper towels, etc.).

Stop it on 2 out of 3 of those. Kleenex? really? What, are their noses so delicate that they can't withstand a paper towel when they have snot flying all over the place? Alternatively, whatever happened to handkerchiefs? They're not just formal dress accessories, you know. And hand sanitizer?? Is this a parents freaking out at you thing or have you missed all the bits about hand sanitizers doing little good while they can do quite a bit of harm?
Yes, of course you wouldn't want little Johnny to stick his fingers into little Lily's mouth right after he wiped his butt.. but isn't that why you teach them to wash their hands? Or is this a wash hands and then 'just to be sure' thing?
Not saying you should be taking pointers from a comedian, but here.. have a laugh anyway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FG6J6RPB9U

Re:Wasted money

[jklovanc]

I am not saying this is right but it is always easier to get a capitol expenditure through than it is to get an operating expenditure through. Say an operating expenditure would cost $100K/year. It is easy for a bean counter to say "that expenditure will cost us a million dollars over the next ten years. We wont pay a million dollars for that." But when a one time expense of $200K comes up it is easier to justify.

Re:Wasted money

[Anonymous Coward]

If Kleenex cost more, there would be heavier lobbying for the corporate welfare, and the taxpayers would take on that expense, instead of you. Have you considered using some kind of synthetic silk tissues?

Re:Wasted money

[jklovanc]

The issue is that some schools have these supplies on their list of equipment that parents are required to purchase. Facial tissue is a quite common requirement and I found a few places that require hand sanitizer.

As for using paper towel; you do that when you have a cold. I am pretty sure it will last about half an hour and you will never do it again.

Re:Wasted money

[nedlohs]

It's got nothing to do with the parent, which was pretty damn obvious from the post...

My kid's school for example sent out the following list of things the kid should bring for class in the first week (to hopefully the last the year):

* 2 glue sticks
* 6 pencils
* 1 bottle of hand sanitizer
* 1 plastic pencil box
* 1 pack of 3x3 post it notes
* 2 boxes of tissues
* 1 pack of baby wipes
* 10 folders

Doesn't matter what my opinion is on those things, I'm not going to piss off the teacher on day 1...

Re:Wasted money

[NetNed]

So true. Here we have a school district that "updated" most all their classrooms in the district with HD projectors, interactive white boards, Blue Ray DVD and sound systems. This same district asked teachers for concessions last year. Meanwhile the police department there has a average salary of $114k a year and refuses to make concessions. Politicians don't want to spend anything on educating our children, but will spend all sorts of cash on arresting the uneducated that break the law. They can't make money off the schools anymore, so police and fire are now the focus of wasting tax payers dollars.

Re:Wasted money

[Calydor]

A few years ago I had the flu and ran out of Kleenex. Went with a roll of otherwise pleasantly soft toilet paper instead. After a couple of hours my eyes started watering just THINKING about touching my nose again.

For a single wipe of the nose, use whatever. For extended to constant wiping during illness, and this isn't to endorse anyone, but I will never use anything other than Kleenex. The mint-scented ones are nice.

Re:Wasted money

[notknown86]

I must be spending way too much time watching porn these days. My first thought was that you are some kind of sicko for needing those type of "supplies" at a kindergarten.

Re:Wasted money

[Macgrrl]

I use the aloe vera infused ones, otherwise within a few hours of the first real runny nose sniffling I have cracked and bleeding skin. Tissues are essentially sawdust and kerosene, awesome for cleaning spilt toner off your hands, crap for your skin if you expect prolonged or repeated exposure.

Standard practice in school.

[SuricouRaven]

I work at a school, and a few months back we did an interesting school trip.... to an Apple store. Where the students all got told glowingly how wonderful Apple products are, and were given a chance to try them all out. School trips are not my department, but you don't need to be much of a conspiracy theorist to make the connection between that trip and the new iMacs that soon equipped the photography class.

It's no great secret that tech companies target schools intensively in their marketing. Microsoft has been doing it for years. So has Apple. So has just about everyone else. Sometimes they do it by offering equipment or software at a discount, even to almost or entirely free at times. Sometimes it's by lobbying, pressuring curriculum writers to mandate a particular vendor's technology or urging administrators to buy it.

Schools are just irresistable. Get the students familiar with something, and they will go buying it once they get out. Teach them Office, they buy Office at home. Teach them to use iPads, and they will want to buy iPads - or in this case, tell their parents how cool iPads are. Simple, highly effective marketing. Business sense says a vendor needs to get their product into schools, and so they will - even if it means intensive lobbying and selling at a loss.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[Microlith]

Get them used to computing devices that exist entirely within a walled garden, and they won't go looking for alternatives. If they get curious about how it works, just tell them it'll cost a bunch of extra money to do it and they'll have to get permission from someone else to even run their software, and that they can't because of it.

Sadly, Apple's approach to technical literacy seems to be catering to the ignorant instead of educating them, and this is an example of people encouraging that ignorance and borderline corporate subservience.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[ThorGod]

Yeah, yeah, and I got taught how to run a TI-83 in my algebra II/trig class. Oh wait, they REQUIRED I buy a TI-83 for that class. duh duh duh!

Complaining about schools teaching kids Office and instilling a basic computer literacy is like complaining about a wood working class teaching how to use a band saw, lathe, drill press, etc etc. Pick up a newspaper classified ads section sometime and count the number of postings requiring Office experience. I'd rather work with an excel jockey on a data project than someone who thinks a computer is best used for 'youtube'.

Yes, Office is one product from one vendor and it's therefore always and forever acting like the bully in the room. But, do you expect a high school to file an anti-trust case against Microsoft and force Word, Excel, and Powerpoint to be minted by 3 separate companies? LoL! I think they're better off just ponying up $100/machine for software at the school.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[Stiletto]

OMG WALLED GARDEN!

There's one of you whenever Apple is mentioned. You just have to do a text search for "walled" and the same crap comes up in every thread.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[SteveFoerster]

It gets mentioned every time because it's a good point. I'm an educational technologist with a six year old, and I say that acclimatizing little kids (and their families) to that kind of lock-in is a bad idea. Besides, there's no pedagogical reason to dump this kind of technology into an elementary school -- SmartBoards yes, but this... no.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[SuricouRaven]

Every corporation wants the customers to be subservient. They call it 'brand loyalty.' Apple has it.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[mr100percent]

Apple does try and teach their customers the basics of the OS, with free Apple Store classes, free online classes for new computer buyers, and carrying a variety of Mac, iPod, iPad, OS X, iLife, and Office guide books in their stores. Way better than Dell's strategy of just dumping them with a computer and hoping they'll get the hang of Microsoft and the Microsoft.com help pages.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[brantondaveperson]

Or... in a few years they'll download Xcode, write an astonishingly original and useful app that you or I would never have thought of in a thousand years, and make millions of dollars or yen or whatever the de-facto international currency is by that point.

The fault for the idiocy of purchasing a suite of iPads for a kindergarten does not lie with Apple, it lies with a poorly managed and entirely wrong-headed approach to education that seems to be widespread in US schools.

Just because Apple (like every other computer vendor as near as I can tell) offer their devices at a healthy educational discount does not mean that the education system has to buy them.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[Microlith]

But they don't teach you true literacy, they teach you how to live in their garden. And I'm pretty sure they'd NEVER tell you how to escape it, and if not for the DMCA exemption would be slapping down everyone who posted how.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[Microlith]

The kids who were born with the mouse are twenty-six now. It didn't produce a big wave of savvy people. Instead we got the same handful of geeks in any particular age group.
The mouse is simply a means of interacting with a system, nothing more.

However, when I was growing up and, even now, my computers have never run software to actively thwart my use of the system in whatever manner I saw fit. Kids growing up with iOS devices are facing exactly that. Why explore, when the system fights you?

Re:Standard practice in school.

[Toonol]

There's one of you whenever Apple is mentioned. You just have to do a text search for "walled" and the same crap comes up in every thread.

The fact that you're watching or searching for that is far creepier.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[mr100percent]

You have no idea what you're talking about, the Mac is extremely different than the iOS garden. Mac magazines are printing shell scripts and Apple makes a point of supporting X11 and Windows installs on their machines. You can change the OS elements, replace your own kernel, rename menu items, modify the drivers, etc. It's not locked down and Apple has literally gigabytes of free developer documentation and sample code to edit and script your machine.

As part of that documentation, Apple even has manuals on how to start writing in Objective-C. If you have a problem with Apple not teaching how to use Bash, then find me a distro of *nix that teaches it from the ground up as part of it's support.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[UBfusion]

The worse walled garden and lock-in is in the heads, not in products and appliances. It is an essential capitalist axiom that has been established long ago (by Marx!) that the latter inevitably leads to the former.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[Johann Lau]

what do you mean by "one of you"? people who pay some fucking attention? why does that bother you?

and yes, when you search for a word, posts containing that word will show up.. fantastic insight there :P

Re:Standard practice in school.

[jittles]

My girlfriend is a teacher and Apple paid the teachers $200 to spend a day of their summer vacation learning how to use the iPad in education.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[tehcyder]

OMG WALLED GARDEN!

There's one of you whenever Apple is mentioned. You just have to do a text search for "walled" and the same crap comes up in every thread.

It's probably something to do with the fact that Apple's marketing philosophy is to create as it were a "walled garden" for thei customers and products.

You can call it fa cute sandpit filled with brightly coloured balls if you want, the fact remains that Apple want to keep your business entirely with Apple, from hardware to software to additional content like music.

Re:Standard practice in school.

[tehcyder]

Every corporation wants the customers to be subservient. They call it 'brand loyalty.' Apple has it.

But when Microsoft has/had it with Windows/Internet Explorer it's called a monopoly, even though there were are/were always alternatives available.

The worry is that Apple's model of a locked down proprietary hardware and sofware sub-universe may become al but inescapable if they get too much bigger..

Re:Standard practice in school.

[danlip]

He gives the kids free samples,
Because he knows full well
That today's young innocent faces
Will be tomorrow's clientele.
- Tom Lehrer, "The Old Dope Peddler"

Re:Standard practice in school.

[badkarmadayaccount]

It's called fish (friendly interactive shell). It's in the repos.

Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[cosm]

Another school system that just throws money at problems? I never understood the rich/poor school district thing. Most knowledge is free, and with the amount of free information on the internet, public libraries and such, why can't schools just get by on redistributing free material and then working off that? Is there a need for the multi-hundred dollar textbooks, software packages, OS licenses, mega-calculators, mongoloid gyms and sports-programs, massive administrative overheard, super expensive art-decko modern design crap, and all that other new-age school bullshit? I'm pretty sure all that crap is extraneous, but the DoE has blossomed into a monstrosity, and schools now operate under the assumption that we must get great standardized test scores to get more money and once we get more money we can buy more shit to get better standardized test scores to get more money to hire more administrators to plan us getting better test scores.

There is a reason home-schooling is on the rise along with the growing demand for vouchers and more private-school flexibility.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Spending money on basic educational resources: forbidden
Spending money on fancy accessories from the company that charges the most for them: required
 
The fact that Apple and Apple alone has been getting their overpriced toys into schools for decades now (look it up; this is not a recent trend) suggests that whomever is responsible for appropriating these funds does not have the students' own best interests at heart.
 
But still, as always, people ignore the upper management entirely and blame teachers for what their bosses do. Upper management calls all the shots and holds all the responsibility, yet they never actually take responsibility for what happens under their watch or even by their own decision.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[Anne_Nonymous]

Look, kindergarten is not too young to start learning how to consume.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[cosm]

Good point. I remember being in my early years in K12 (dating myself here) and having Apple IIs plastered against each wall in our school, those big-ass really floppy disc with all, and now that I think about it, worthless games that just wasted our time.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[Qzukk]

why can't schools just get by on redistributing free material and then working off that?

Liberals would refuse because then they can't waste shitloads of money to make themselves look like they're doing something for the little people.

Conservatives would refuse because then they can't rewrite history to remove Thomas Jefferson.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[Amouth]

i remember that time too - but back then i was a tinkerer - and in 4-5th grade i would be sent to class rooms to "fix" the machines that where either locked up or had errors or wouldn't start. All i had was a cheat sheet of mac error codes and a screw driver (did a lot of part mixing and swapping). now days they would never let a student do that.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[Rich0]

Yeah, but those science books from 10 years ago are SO out of date. You know, the ones that talk about how lightning is just a form of electricity, that fronts form when differing air masses collide, and that the earth is round.

There is little reason for books to be replaced more than once every 10 years even at the college level, unless you're talking graduate-level classes (and graduate level classes don't really benefit as much from textbooks anyway). How much has Physics 101 changed in the last 10 years?

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[Xacid]

"I never understood the rich/poor school district thing. "

I'm pretty sure the difference isn't in the school itself but in the culture that ends up occupying it. Kind of like how you can take the kid out of the X but not take the X out of the kid. At least in my region I see a lot of shit given to other kids by the "cool" kids for being smart with the accusation of "acting white". I know it's a favorite past time to make fun of nerds but this just seems like a new low. Or hell, maybe I'm just getting old.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[blarkon]

Knowledge is not free. That's why people who know things get paid a lot more than people that are ignorant.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[KingAlanI]

I interpreted that as cosm saying the overemphasis on gyms and sports programs is anti-intellectual/barbaric in addition to costing too much.
Maybe art deco in particular is an old style, but I see the point about overly fancy art/architecture being one more thing to blow money on (not that extremely bland slabs work either)

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[UBfusion]

Please clarify your position regarding the NASA budget, or you will be misunderstood.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[hb253]

There's definitely an anti-intellectual streak in the US - independent of skin color. Way back in 8th grade (late 1970's) when I moved to a new town, I was initially placed in "regular" classes". The administration quickly realized I did not belong there and moved me to the advanced/honors classes. Boy did I get abused by the "regular" kids when they found out. To this day, I simply cannot understand why academic achievement is not encouraged and celebrated as vigorously as sports achievement.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[Macgrrl]

Art Deco is largely the presentation layer, and was a fairly minimalist one that would have been fairly cheap to produce as it was generally just moulded concrete in execution.

Good design in an education environment can facilitate improved attention spans due to well performing lighting and ventilation (HVAC) systems. Plenty of schools in Australia are introducing solar power and rain water tanks to reduce the ecological foot print of the building. Good design can also minimise maintenance costs and make the site more compatible for multiplurpose usage, allowing the school to generate revenue by hiring out facilities when not in use for classes.

I'm not suggesting that the buildings need to be gold plated, but there can be long term advantages to 'architecture' in a school envinronment.

I was in the 3rd year intake of a wholey new school when I was in secondary school. Most of our buildings were 'portable' steel sheds as they built the permanent school around us. I remember thinking how awesome the new wings were as they came online - a sports and entertainment centre with an inside gym, a theatre/auditorium, media labs. The arts and trade wings with the dedicated labs for the major trade streams. The chemistry labs. A real library. Sadly the core english/maths/physics courses were still in tin cans when I was finishing school. I don't know if they were fully replaced.

The difference between attending a class in one of the new wings vs. the portables in the depths of winter or height of summer had to be experienced to be believed. It's hard to concentratte when you are nearly passing out from heat exhaustion or freezing your arse off.

What I am trying to say is don't underestimate the impact a good built environment has on your ability to concentrate and learn.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[tehcyder]

Another school system that just throws money at problems? I never understood the rich/poor school district thing. Most knowledge is free, and with the amount of free information on the internet, public libraries and such, why can't schools just get by on redistributing free material and then working off that? Is there a need for the multi-hundred dollar textbooks, software packages, OS licenses, mega-calculators, mongoloid gyms and sports-programs, massive administrative overheard, super expensive art-decko modern design crap, and all that other new-age school bullshit? I'm pretty sure all that crap is extraneous, but the DoE has blossomed into a monstrosity, and schools now operate under the assumption that we must get great standardized test scores to get more money and once we get more money we can buy more shit to get better standardized test scores to get more money to hire more administrators to plan us getting better test scores. There is a reason home-schooling is on the rise along with the growing demand for vouchers and more private-school flexibility.

Teachers aren't free. And if education just isitting kids down in front of an internet-enabled device, the current generation of kids should turn out to be fucking geniuses.

And home schooling is the last resort of the fanatical parent. If you're not some sort of religious/political nutjob, why wouldn't you want your kids to mix wih others?.

Re:Throwing money at the cradle!?!?!

[KingAlanI]

I did sort of refer to that, with "not that extremely bland slabs work either". Yes, I agree there are some practical benefits to good building aesthetics, though I saw that as more of an issue of lively interior design.
Some of architecture is very utilitarian, no issues there

A Bunch of Rubes

[dcollins]

I am from Maine. A close family member of mine works in a school district there.

My judgment is that frequently Mainers are a bunch of rubes, and surprisingly easy prey for slick business salespeople in this regard.

Re:A Bunch of Rubes

[ThorGod]

My judgment is that frequently Mainers are a bunch of rubes, and surprisingly easy prey for slick business salespeople in this regard.

I wondered if they were just overly well-off:

School officials say they are the first public school district in the country to give every kindergartener an iPad

Must be nice having schools so well funded that even the kindergarten kids get ipads. I remember we had a fake, ROTARY phone at my kindergarten. That was our 'technology'.

Re:A Bunch of Rubes

[dcollins]

"I wondered if they were just overly well-off:"

No, bottom half of state median income (#31):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

Re:A Bunch of Rubes

[ThorGod]

Wow, yeah. I grew up in #40. I'm sure there's all sorts of corroborating issues, but I doubt many kindergarten schools where I'm from have ipods/pads/anything like them for kids/etc.

Off topic, why aren't I living in Maryland?

Re:A Bunch of Rubes

[SteveFoerster]

Be careful what you wish for. There are a few counties in Maryland that skew everything toward making the state look rich, but outside that zone it's basically an underdeveloped Southern state.

Re:A Bunch of Rubes

[gmhowell]

Off topic, why aren't I living in Maryland?

I am, and always have. Trust me, to get those salaries, you either live with an insane cost of living (think San Francisco burbs, NYC burbs), an insane commute (Hagertucky, Winchester, La Plata), or live in gangland (PGC). Or some combination thereof.

Oh, and you get the joy of working for the government or a contractor. Which, given the security, isn't a bad thing right about now.

Re:A Bunch of Rubes

[phrackwulf]

Ah.. Prince George's County, I remember thee well. The soft light of the Crack Houses lit up for New Years. The stray bullets landing in the backyard from Northwest D.C. "Spare a copper for a hit, eeh guvnor?"

"Prince George's County, like Flint Michigan without the dignity or respect for life."

Ongoing Program?

[tgeek]

TFA isn't really clear on this. It mentions the goal of improving test scores by the third grade. So does the same tablet a kid is issued today stay with him thru third grade? (If so, I hope it comes with a booger scraper and a coupon for a can of Goof-Off) If not, when does the kid get separated from his tablet? Before going into first grade? Is the school district going to scrape up another $200k for next years incoming kindergartners? Or are they SOL?

Geez

[darth dickinson]

Another school jumps on the tablet bandwagon. For fun, take an article like this, replace "iPad" with "laptop", and like magic you have an article that could have been written 7 years ago. And just how much did all those laptops help?

And that was with a more powerful platform that could run full-blown apps, like Illustrator, Photoshop, and Office.

Re:Well, goldurn

[AmberBlackCat]

Or to put it in English, when I was in high school in the 90's they still had math books from the 70's. They had computer programming books that featured code in the BASIC language. We had Tandy computers with 8086 processors. And this was high school in the 90's. And these kids who are getting iPads at 5 years old are the ones who will grow up and say kids from my neighborhood are having the world handed to them and don't deserve a chance to go to college.

What a waste!

[prefec2]

I would be more wise to invest the money in teachers, teacher's education and other staff stuff. Devices make kids not wise or clever. They will not be better in understanding the media when they have an iPad. The important thing to know: How media works. How information can be retrieved and how you can evaluate it.

Beside that. Kids shall run around a lot and have fun. Still sitting is not really something they should learn. And they should learn to eat real food. So the money would also better be spend on good food in kindergarten.

iPads! What a crap.

Re:What a waste!

[misexistentialist]

I think if you looked at the real motivations of the purchase, "investing" in iPads for teachers...and principals...and superintendents will be near the top.

Re:What a waste!

[Johann Lau]

language is improved by using the ipad, as opposed to by communication with adults and other kids?

care to give ANY backup for your fantastic claims? you just make these bare assertions, and I call bullshit.

Re:What a waste!

[lcllam]

Agreed. We are moving towards a skills-and vocation-based learning model, when we once were theory and concept-based, from which the skills may be developed. We are learning 'click here, do this' to get results fast, when we should be learning *what* we are doing, so that we can develop the 'how' on our own. Knowledge and experience (bad) versus intelligence and wisdom (good). Long term growth are lost for the sake of short term KPI padding. Too many times I've had to deal with 'I don't know OoO because I learned Office' or 'I can't do X because it's not in the software I'm using'. I'm not advocating OoO, but I'm saying we should be working on learning Word Processing, from which we can use both. Anybody who has sat through a Powerpoint with stupid animations but has very little to say knows this.

grade level reading

[roman_mir]

40% of the third graders in Auburn are not reading at grade level. Superintendent Katy Grodin says to the goal is to fix that number.

- what, they are going to fix this to be 20%?

What do they think iPads do exactly?

Re:grade level reading

[cosm]

40% of the third graders in Auburn are not reading at grade level. Superintendent Katy Grodin says to the goal is to fix that number.

- what, they are going to fix this to be 20%?

What do they think iPads do exactly?

What students think: Yay more games and distractions, but they're authorized!!!!
What the teachers think: Yay more games and distractions, but they're authorized!!!!
What the parents think: It's technology, it will make them smarter!!!!
What the administration thinks: It's technology, it will make them smarter!!!!
What Apple thinks: "$$$$ LOL VENDOR LOCKIN $$$$ LOL"
What Microsoft thinks: "Do you have a Windows license for each of your remaining desktops?"
What /. thinks: "Society is fucked."

Aren't we all loving this brave new fucking world shit...

Re:grade level reading

[Isaac Remuant]

+2 (both funny and insightful)

Re:grade level reading

[Belial6]

Nice, but I would make two corrections:

What the parent thinks: It's technology, so they will get better grades! What the administration thinks: It's technology, so they will score better on the funding tests! I don't think the majority of parents or administrators care if the kids are smart. The administrators want more funding and the parents don't care if their kids are dumb, they just want them to get good grades.

Re:grade level reading

[treeves]

No, they're going to make it 50%.

Kindergartners?

[Ardyvee]

To be honest, if it was to more... mature pupils I'd say it *could* improve learning (provided it's done the right way [does it even exist?]). But for kindergartners, I don't think it will. Prove me wrong though. I would love to be proven wrong, specially when it comes to using computers (this includes iPads) to learn.

Maine is a welfare state

[Gothmolly]

I used to work in Maine, and a friend of mine was in charge basically of handing out welfare in Lewsiton. She told me "I don't bother to check income - if they come to me, they must need help." Meanwhile Somali immigrants are overrunning Maine's welfare system because they're known to be a joke. I feel bad for the people of Maine - they have no industry other than tourism - logging and fishing are dying. It has an aging rural white population, and a burgeoning gimme population in the cities. Meanwhile there's nobody paying into the system.

Hook them on your tech.

[ThEATrE]

Get them while they're young.

Apple Marketting

[Haedrian]

Just realised something.

This same district handed out apple laptops to their older students in the past. So this isn't really a case of "What are they thinking" as it is a case of corporate branding being imprinted on fresh young minds. Sure at face value you'd say "Sure its an iPad, its the most popular tablet so that's fine. Instead of going with a tablet, they went with an iPad" - but the other event makes it clear who's really pulling the strings.

Come kids, join the iChurch of Apple.

Re:Apple Marketting

[jo_ham]

What would your comment have been if they had handed out Android tablets instead?

How is this different from furnishing a computer room with new computers? Except now, the computer room is the main classroom.

Maybe the district had a good experience with Apple, hence deciding to go with iPads this time? Why does it have to be some conspiracy or "cult related"? Is it possible to select Apple from a list of choices *without* being accused of "falling for the marketing" or accused of taking kickbacks? Oh this is slashdot, of course not.

Re:Apple Marketting

[Haedrian]

If it was an Android tablet I probably wouldn't have drawn the link. Though I'd still think it was stupid to give it to kindergartners.

Well here's the thing. Apple make shiny and attractive products. However (especially their laptops) aren't as functional.

To explain - you can pay less money for a windows machine which will do much more - or you can pay even less money for a Linux machine and get free educational software and pretty much anything you need. Unless you're teaching the kids advanced Photoshop or sound-manipulation techiniques, there is no reason whatsoever to prefer Apple (except for how pretty they look). The fact that they're more expensive is another red flag. If they went for a 'all linux', they could still teach the kiddies with the same effectivness, but at a fraction of the price.

Re:Apple Marketting

[jo_ham]

Apple make shiny and attractive products. However (especially their laptops) aren't as functional.

In your opinion, perhaps, but I challenge you to justify that statement. In what way aren't Macs as functional as other computers?

You can install any OS on them you like - Windows and Linux alike (you can even be all fancy and keep them in a VM if you choose, although it's not mandatory).

There's a whole host of software available for them, and pretty much the whole gamut of the open source arena is open to them, so that chalks off your Linux argument - which seems to be that Apple machines aren;t as functional as Linux PCs because they.... cost more? I'm not sure what you're driving at there.

They have the same ports, use the same protocols, read the same files...

Ignoring any arguments about whether the physical machines are worth the money (all-metal construction, no external doors to break off, magnetic power connectors [with improved design over older plug geometry]), it's not just the physical cost of the machines that factors into a large scale purchase like this - you have support costs to consider, of which Apple has a highly streamlined process (they've been selling to education for many years). Certainly they're not the only game in town for this but it's going to play a major role. Even an all-Linux deployment is going to cost money to support - sending the school IT department to a forum with a smile and some questions is no way to handle it. While the software procurement cost is lower, with slightly reduced hardware costs, it's nowhere near free.

I'm still struggling to think how a Mac is "less functional" than an equivalent PC running Windows or Linux. Other than the fact that the physical hardware costs a little more initially (and whether or not that is worth it is not a functional issue), what exactly makes them "less functional"?

I'm struggling to think, sitting as I am with multiple Macs, one of which is running Linux.

I guess the fact that the iMac's power button and USB ports are on the back and you have to reach round behind to plug them in, meaning you need to use a USB hub if you don;t want to have to fumble around back there to plug in a memory stick counts as less functional, but I'm really not seeing much else.

Re:Apple Marketting

[Haedrian]

Right I'm sure they bought apple laptops to uninstall the OS and install something else on them. For the sake of this (and above) discussion, 'apple laptops' mean laptops which are running iOS. I'm not talking about the physical laptop here.

When I say 'functional' I mean this - Macs are more expensive than windows/linux. When you pay that extra few hundred dollars - what are you getting in return? An operating system which can run less programs than windows, and which can run basically the same thing linux can (with some notable exceptions which I'm positive won't come up in a classroom). So basically you're paying that extra dollar for less (compared with windows), or that extra extra dollar for some very particular software.

Most commercial software is sadly designed for Windows, so if you want to run a particular educational piece of software, you won't be able to get that to run = less functional. If you just need the kiddies to use a word processor and browse the web to do research or whatever - then you can get along very well with going linux which will be much more cheaper.

Re:Apple Marketting

[jo_ham]

Right, so by "less functional" you mean "more expensive", not "less functional". The definition of words is important, and you got caught saying something you can't back up with facts. More expensive does not mean less functional.

For the sake of this (and above) discussion, 'apple laptops' mean laptops which are running iOS. I'm not talking about the physical laptop here.

Apple laptops do not run iOS. Perhaps you meant OS X?

Your entire argument boils down to price - that if you don;t need a specific piece of Windows-only software, then Linux is cheaper. Potentially, sure, but the support costs are still non-zero, and you have to factor in hardware support as well as human support.

Re:Apple Marketting

[Johann Lau]

uh. if I get the same functionality for less money, that means I can spend the saved money on -- more functionality! it's not rocket science really, yet still too complicated to explain to a mac user it seems ^^

Re:Apple Marketting

[jo_ham]

Wow, you really are looking for ways to make the OP's statement valid when it simply does not hold.

Yes, if it costs less (and you're willing to spend the same money as an iPad) then you *could* spend the extra money on new functionality, but none of those cheaper tablets do - they're cheap because they all have less functionality.

Again, the key point is that "more expensive" is not synonymous with "less functional". The OP was simply taking an ignorant bash at Apple and was hoping to not get called on it because he couldn't back it up with facts.

You ought to be careful trying to insinuate that other people don;t understand the argument. It makes you look a little foolish, especially if you go for a generalisation. I'm a Mac and Linux user, so does my inability to think for myself and the fact that I'm a clueless, hipster newbie get cancelled out by the crumbs caught up in my neckbeard?

Generalisations help no one, especially not your argument.

Re:Apple Marketting

[Johann Lau]

haha, you're funnny. so now suddenly we are talking about ipads? I thought you were rambling about the off-topicness that are laptops ^^

if this is the level of attention you're able to pay, I couldn't care less how foolish I look to you or anyone else, really :P

justify your foolish expenses to your wife or something, I just laugh. bye.

Re:Apple Marketting

[jo_ham]

The whole topic as a whole is about iPads, in case you missed that.

In terms of spending the money on "more functionality", you did not provide an example, despite it "not being rocket science". If you'd like to enlighten me how the extra money could be used on more functionality in either the tablet or laptop arena I'd be all ears.

Bonus points if you can mention something you cannot do on a Mac that you can do on another machine, bearing in mind that a Mac can run pretty much any current OS you choose. (well, perhaps not BeOS)

Re:Apple Marketting

[Johann Lau]

"The whole topic as a whole is about iPads, in case you missed that."

yeah, and someone made a point about ipads, mentioning laptops as well, and that is what you responded to and argued about. sorry, not wasting my time here. buy as many apples as you wish, no skin off my back :D

"sturdy cases to protect them"

[jklovanc]

I guess they have never seen 5 year olds play with their toys. Considering that you need to keep the screen exposed so that it functions as a touch screen there is not case that can protect the screen from a blow. I would really like to see the stats on how long they last. I bet the average time will be less than a week.

Tools don't teach

[oxdas]

If I don't understand carpentry, giving me a shiny new hammer is not going to help.

Re:Tools don't teach

[oxdas]

Such a device would have limitations. For one, the device would have to include all the possible obstacles encountered by the learner. What techniques are best for using my tools and how do I achieve them (problem solving)? Am I using the right tools and why? Do the step-by-step instructions properly demonstrate the concepts and not just the actions (so I can build other kinds of tables)? etc. Also, the device would have to take into account that different students learn in different ways and be prepared to adapt its instructions accordingly. Does it use audio? 3d projections? feedback during construction for tactile learners? For some reason this reminds me of a few Christmas mornings, using step-by-step instructions to assemble my daughters' toys. Lessons in patience and how to swear quietly.

Re:Tools don't teach

[Dunbal]

If you were smart you could work it out if I gave you a table.

Re:Tools don't teach

[Hogwash McFly]

Yes, books are quite good like that.

Re:Well, goldurn

[narcc]

when I was in high school in the 90's they still had math books from the 70's

I didn't realize that highschool-level mathematics changed so dramatically since the 1970's

They had computer programming books that featured code in the BASIC language.

And this was somehow insufficient to teach computer programming principles?

We had Tandy computers with 8086 processors. And this was high school in the 90's.

Er, a lot happened in the 1990's. This should have been more than adequate in the early 90's.

And these kids who are getting iPads at 5 years old are the ones who will grow up and say kids from my neighborhood are having the world handed to them and don't deserve a chance to go to college.

This just doesn't make any sense. How did you come to such an absurd conclusion?

Man

[Greyfox]

As a new home owner, I suddenly have an opinion on property taxes. I'm glad mine aren't going to this school district.

What a waste!

[mjb]

Waste of money!

Test Scores?

[mosb1000]

Will this improve low test scores, or be another case where spending more money does not produce a better educational outcome?

There's more to learning than test scores.

Re:Test Scores?

[j-beda]

Will this improve low test scores, or be another case where spending more money does not produce a better educational outcome?

There's more to learning than test scores.

Exactly what I thought!

Re:Test Scores?

[Toonol]

There's more to learning than test scores.

Interesting hypothesis. How would you test that theory?

Re:Test Scores?

[Belial6]

By talking to the kids that that get good scores on standardized tests, and through empirical evidence determine that a large portion of them are as dumb as a box of rocks.

Re:Test Scores?

[Toonol]

Got it. You'd give them some sort of... examination... to determine that they have skills that can't be... tested for.

Re:Test Scores?

[Belial6]

No, I would give them some kind of test that the schools DON'T test for. It's like a friend of my son's. It was the summer following her passing of the second grade. She was at our house, and my wife decided to run a game of 'Addition Bingo' for my son and his friend. This little girl was doing fine with all of the addition that she had memorized. 5+5, 10 + 8, 0 +12. These she had memorized to pass her tests in the 2nd grade. The surprise came when the square for 13 + 0 was called. This poor little girl could not add 13 + 0. Since her memorization sheets only went to 12, and she had never been tested on anything that was not on the list, it was immediatly apparent that this 3rd Grade student could not add. It looked like she could add, because she had memorized a set of answers, but she didn't know how addition worked. She was completely lost on how to add 0 to 13.

That isn't testing for skills that can't be tested for. It is testing for skills that the public school system DOESN'T test for. There is a huge difference between the two. Thus, if you are talking about public school kids, "There's more to learning than test scores".

please note the class these are given to

[RobertLTux]

I would bet that a good chunk of the KINDERGARTEN students are not quite ready for "text" books. but i guess that even those alphabet teaching books are changed enough to matter on this point.

Software matters

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

Give them software that teaches them how to count, do basic math and if they master basic math, give them advanced math... and if they do advanced math, give them physics. It seems like teaching could be simplified into software, but the software has to be moderately well involved(though we have the tech to do it now).

ePad?

[SleepyHappyDoc]

I don't understand why Apple doesn't make a school-oriented version of the iPad. Plexiglass screen for the kiddies, some kind of built-in LoJack, distinctive looking case so the kids' parents can't pawn them, etc.

Re:ePad?

[Enter the Shoggoth]

Apple already tried this once... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300

Re:ePad?

[drosboro]

And stylus input so it would be useful for writing. Oh, I'd love that.

Just had our "Meet the Teacher" night at school. Had to recommend to a bunch of parents not to buy their kids an iPad, which was odd since I was holding mine in my hands at the time. But without pen input, there's too many things they just can't do efficiently.

Vote them out on their asses!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mrs. McCarthy says the tools give her 19 students more immediate feedback and individual attention than she ever could.

You only have 19 students and you can't give them individual attention? Why are you being paid again? Why don't you just come out and say it: "An iPad can teach better than I can. I am just a babysitter."

40% of the third graders in Auburn are not reading at grade level. Superintendent Katy Grodin says to the goal is to fix that number.

"We put a stake in the ground that our kindergarten classes from here on out by the time they reach third grade, and leave third grade that 90% of those students are meeting benchmarks." Grodin said.

You know what would help those students get better reading scores? A $200,000 library. And it would also benefit every class that comes in after this one. And books don't become obsolete or unsupported. They also tend to stand up to the abuse small children give out much better than relatively delicate technology items.

Book vs. computer

[Lunaritian]

I'm a Finnish high school student who uses computers a lot. People would expect me to do most studying on a computer too, but no, I don't do that. One reason is that computers have a habit of not working when you need to write a really important paper. But that's a completely different thing.

I've always been very successful at school, and I think it's mostly because I read books so much. I learned to read really early (at age 3), and I've always enjoyed visiting the library and going home with a pile of books. I spent countless nights reading books years ago. You can read on a computer, of course, but that just doesn't feel the same - even with an e-book reader like Kindle.

I still often read school books for hours without realizing that it's already 2am and I should be asleep. There's no way I would ever read anything useful on a computer for that long unless I really had to.

I like how with books you can just grab one and start reading. On a computer you have to start the program and then search for the file, which, as I'm messy person, can sometimes take a while. Files can also get corrupt and compability problems aren't rare, especially as I use Linux.

We all have netbooks in school, but I don't use mine much. Most teachers don't even know what you could do with them and most students only use theirs for writing notes. I find it just a distraction, so I prefer a pencil-and-paper system.

Of course computers are still useful for some things. It's easy to look up facts, like if I want to know what "schneiden" means. Chatting with people from other countries is only useful for learning languages. A tablet or netbook is lighter to carry than a pile of books, but as we still use books, the result is just the opposite.

Still, I believe that computers could be useful, but often they're used just because technology is cool. Most teachers don't really know what to do with them.

Re:Book vs. computer

[Belial6]

He didn't say when he learned to walk.

Well and succinctly put!

[SteveFoerster]

Best AC comment ever.

Recession?

[Dunbal]

What recession? Those Chinese workers at the Foxconn factory must be happy. Now they can use their wages to buy, er, more Chinese products. And Apple can invest its tremendous profits in - emerging markets. Wait, what?

Re:WOW

[Dunbal]

And note, one iPad per kindergarten. How many kids can you crowd around a single iPad again? I hope they have small groups.

Mature.

[EonsWrath]

Is this a test about how fast we can get kids to masturbate?

Re:Well, goldurn

[gmhowell]

when I was in high school in the 90's they still had math books from the 70's

I didn't realize that highschool-level mathematics changed so dramatically since the 1970's

All I had was this newfangled 'Principia Mathematica', and it seemed just fine for me.

Why America is dead last in education...

[Cito]

Instead of any possibility of learning going on in schools

schools just buy ipads so when the teacher asks the question you are graded on how fast you can google the answer rather than any comprehension or memorization skills.

the movie Idiocracy was a very perfect prediction of what this country is turning into... everyone singing commercial jingles, while everyone gets dumber and dumber. Computers shouldn't be allowed in normal subject classes.

I graduated college in 1995, and even then you were not allowed to bring a laptop to class, unless it was for your class, since I was a computer science major, which I got my associates degree as. But my core subjects, math/english/science laptops weren't allowed, and only basic calculators in the mathmatics classes. I remember professor made it very clear only old style calculators would be allowed, everything had to be worked out on paper and work shown and no graphing calcs or laptops could be used.

But even a decade later look at schools now, ipads in kindergarten? that's stupid waste of money, and would be a waste of money at any grade level unless it's computer specific classes such as college computer science, microcomputer specialist, or the multitude of programming classes that one could be required.

But yea, learning it first before relying on computers in normal subjects will always be better, and which is why private schools that don't allow such devices usually average higher test scores, at least going by Georgia and Florida Dept of Education sources.

Re:Why America is dead last in education...

[kermidge]

I had classes where slide-rules were not allowed. You had to show your work to demonstrate you'd understood the stuff. Some classes let you use log tables during tests, though.

Doesn't matter so much, the devices; what matters is demonstrating the understanding.

Same in English - diagramming a sentence at the blackboard in front of class shows what you got.

All the rest is either crap or rote, with the exception of practice. Writing pages of the alphabet in print and cursive teaches muscle memory and mind memory. Pages of arithmetic, ditto.

At least in older times, with real chemicals and apparatus, labs could be... Darwinian. [grin]

Re:Why America is dead last in education...

[unencode200x]

the movie Idiocracy was a very perfect prediction of what this country is turning into

Could not agree more.

Great educational device

[tylersoze]

My 3 year old has had an iPad since she was 2, and it's been one of the best things we've ever gotten her. She plays with all sorts of educational apps, and we regularly read books to her on it before bed. Like anything else it's just a tool, and it's effect depends on how it is used. Personally for us it's been much cheaper than buying insanely overpriced childrens' books or educational toys. I mean really, have you seen the prices they charge for that stuff? It's ridiculous. The iPad plus the cost of the apps has more than paid for itself.

Re:Great educational device

[Jmc23]

I'm not sure you'll get across to all the naysayers here. I'mnot sure any of them have children or have ever tried to teach children or they would automatically see the benefit such a a tool can provide. It's a wonder how so many tech geeks can't envision what can be achieved with tech. I'm just wondering how long it takes for slashdot to finally die, because it's clear the lucid thinkers are slowly leaving.

Re:Great educational device

[UBfusion]

Toys and school/work don't always mix. Your kid now sees the iPad (or any laptop/computer/gadget) as a toy and uses it to play with. As soon as she sees it used in school as an incentive and a trick to force her to study (and be graded for her work!) her feelings might change.

Re:Great educational device

[unixisc]

I think that the point of the 'naysayers' here has been about public money being used to pay for this, and the returns being questionable, given past experience w/ computers in schools. Nobody is suggesting that individual parents can't/shouldn't use these. But most of the apps for these I've seen @ the Apple Store are games, and the ones that are general purpose, like YouTube or Safari, one could get on a Mac. Besides, there are specific educational websites like Starfall, which kids could access from either iPads or any other computers - Macs, PCs or even Linux stands. In other words, I'm not seeing what tablet specific apps are there that ain't already there on PCs, which most people have

Re:Great educational device

[Jmc23]

Games are rewarding ways to encourage education. That's why games have been used for millenia to teach, all you have to do is properly design the game.

Now, the big difference is that little children don't have very good fine motor skills. A touch screen takes advantage of something they've been using for years, their abiloty to point. You can even have a tablet on the ground between two children, a common form of social play. Can you do either of those with a computer?

I think the problem is most people are thinking like adults about usage by adults. What we need are software engineers with an education in development that are aware of play patterns of children. Sure, if you want to create cubicle denizens locked down into chairs then go ahead and by a traditional computer because it's 'cheaper'. You might save some money but you are losing out on a whole slew of educational possibilities and severely restricting the mobility of the child.

Btw, I use tablet instead ipad for a reason. I see endless possibilities for RAD on tablets but it isn't based on objective c! As soon as I get my hands on a desktop I'm going to start development on a visual touch interface for data acquisition and exploration for education based on lisp. Why lisp some may ask, what about that parentheses hell? I think what most people fail to grasp about lisp is that the parentheses are just grouping constructs, they can literally be anything that groups including graphical constructs like boxes. Grouping is something even a child understands. Most of the criticism seems to come from people with a 'programmers' mindset, which is usually way more literally minded than most people. The use of syntactic differences helps them to keep everything straight in their head and in the compilers, but really it's just grouping. Billions of people can use speach and appropriate pauses, how many can correctly write with proper syntax? How long does it take them to learn it? Why not just gear education to the ways humans naturally act and by that action focus more on knowledge acquisition instead of tool use?

Re:Great educational device

[517714]

It is a tool, but it is not appropriate for most children. Giving hammers to kindergarteners is more likely to produce mass destruction than carpentry. Watching one's own child and extrapolating that for an entire school system is a formula for failure.

Same as always

[gmhowell]

Same comments as always (it'll break, Apple what!!!???, I had a TI-83, etc.) and as usual, nobody links to Clifford Stoll's book that pretty much covered the topic of tech in the classroom years ago.

Thanks for the linkbait slashdot. Taco may be gone, but you're just as classy as ever.

My sister's experience

[Mia'cova]

My sister is a special-ed teacher. She is a speech therapist. She has been using an ipad for a year or more now. Apparently there are a lot of really great special-purpose apps which she uses with her students. They're designed specifically for speech therapy work. It makes it a lot easier to work with multiple children. You can have one doing interactive exercises while working with the other directly. I've always been a fan of interactive learning. Anyone comparing this to textbooks is missing the point. This isn't for college students. This is giving kids practice drawing their alphabet or adding 3 and 4. Instant feedback and encouragement can make a big difference for some kids.

Re:My sister's experience

[Osgeld]

news at 10: special needs students have special needs!

and a kid can practice their handwriting on paper, it doesn't cost damn near a grand and break the second a 5 year old drops it

Re:My sister's experience

[Xero III]

Are you fucking retarded? Drawing their alphabet or adding 3+4? There's something called a pencil and paper. You don't need $500+ and $300 to buy an iPad and case to do that. There was interactive learning long before an iPad, and the way a school district just spent $800+ on there is just plain ludicrous. There is nothing to even make a case for it, let alone justify it. Even if I were among the 7% of computer users that are either Adobe users, or technologically inept, instead of the 2% users who usually dualboots Windows and Linux, (even if I started that fairly recently) I would have to have an IQ of a few points over what is needed to physically run my body to think that it's worth it to buy iPads for 3 YEAR-OLDS. Seriously, even for special-ed people, buy a $75 dollar dell desktop and run Linux or XP on it. It's way, WAY, cheaper, and in the long run will teach them more, because running Linux actually requires you to think about what you are doing, rather than just click your way randomly through menus. Trust me, I know. I have plenty of problems with Debian right now because I barely know how to use the console, and thus, am not capable of doing much.

Entitlement?

[jader3rd]

I wonder if this will assist the children in gaining a proper sense of entitlement as they grow older.

The Software is what's Important

[fhage]

The FA has no info on what software or media is to be installed. The only thing that make sense to me is they plan on using the tablets primarily as e-books, installing an e-reader and age appropriate books on them. Sending kids home with the entire library collection might actually help some to read more. I doubt the iPads will run anything other than the schools educational apps.

Re:The Software is what's Important

[Jmc23]

um, ebook reader? Really? How about software to work on letter recognition? Distinguishing easily confused letters, e.g. b/p. Simple alphabet chart with spoken letters?

come on, these are things ot takes a day to write, is ebook reader the best you could come up with? What are you even doing on slashdot?

How about even simple right/left teaching? Simple moral jidgement stories with choices? Pattern recognition? Shape recognition? Introsuction of simple mathematics pictorially?

Another thing to consider

[davidbrit2]

Mrs. McCarthy says the tools give her 19 students more immediate feedback and individual attention than she ever could.

Then there remains a distinct possibility that you're a shitty teacher.

They're kindergarteners. Do you expect to need all week to grade their 10 page term papers?

Re:Another thing to consider

[cervesaebraciator]

I saw that very line and thought, "That says it all." Apparently iPads pass the Turing test for teaching, as far as this school system is concerned. At what point did we start conflating a shiny screen's instant and rigid response with the understanding and human care implied by a teacher's attention?

Re:Another thing to consider

[Jmc23]

Apparently you've never been around children. It's a wonder how people with no experience of something feel so entitled to pass judgement.

Unles of course you have 19 pairs of eyes and 19 mouths.

Re:Another thing to consider

[davidbrit2]

Apparently you've never been around the millions of people that went through kindergarten without an iPad and didn't end up retarded because of it.

Re:Another thing to consider

[Jmc23]

I do see the millions of people who are lacking si/ple logic skills, an inability to read what is actually written and instead infer incorrect meaning, people who can't spell, people who were getting into trouble simply because one pwrson cannot give individualized attention to everybody etc..

I even see people like you wbo lack simple vision to see how these tools could be put to use? Homosapien? People like you aren't even habilis.

Re:Another thing to consider

[davidbrit2]

Your argument kind of unraveled at the end there when you went ad-hominem.

I see plenty of value in these sort of tools for use in education, but at the kindergarten level, dedicating one for every student is utterly superfluous, and possibly hazardous to the students' ability to interact with the teacher and other authority figures. Throwing iPads at them is just Baby Einstein all over again. Let them use one on occasion to become comfortable with technology, but an iPad should in no way be a key component of a kindergarten education.

Re:Another thing to consider

[Jmc23]

Ad hominems can be used as a tool. They frequently force the person to drop their myopic focus on the semantics of an argument and pull back to a greater distance where they more accurately express their views. A tactic to be used on relatively few people who actually have something to say and the means to say it

Now, you need to stop over-generalizing and setting up strawmen. Do you really believe that all classroom time will now be devoted to solitary tablet use? Are you more concerned about the education of these children or the possibility that your wallet will become lighter in the future?

The focus should not be on exposing children to tech the way it is currently used by adults. In that sense it is a bad idea, the software we use is not geared towards data/knowledge acquisition and retention. If you are really concerned about the education of these children then perhaps you should stop whining about what already is and instead focus on what can be done to improve the use of these tools. It is always more efficient to mold current reality into the ideal then to fight reality back into the past. And let's face it, your education system is already broken, how about you focus on a solution? See my other posts for simple ideas that illustrate where this can go.

Re:Another thing to consider

[davidbrit2]

Do you really believe that all classroom time will now be devoted to solitary tablet use?

1. See the quote I singled out in my original post.

2. Why else would they buy one for every kindergartener?

Are you more concerned about the education of these children or the possibility that your wallet will become lighter in the future?

The former. Nice try.

Re:Another thing to consider

[Jmc23]

Your two points only illustrate that you are one of those people who infer things based on their preconceived viewpoints that have nothing to do with what was actually written. Just because each kindergartner has one doesn't mean the whole day will be spent in solitary use of it. Each kindergartner also has a notebook, did you spend your whole class alone with your notebook? You did no social activities whatsoever? Maybe you were a loner? It seems you would benefit from one of those logic apps.

Did you notice how i said the same thing twice but one had a method that would indicate that you are sincerely interested in the children's education? You chose to respond to the one where you can say you are concerned and feel righteous but not have any responsability to do anything. This indicates that you are most likely not interested in their education or you would be contributing to it, instead it seems you prefer to whine about things that have already happened and just say things to make yourself feel better. Actions speak louder than words, words just make the unimportant self-important.

Re:Another thing to consider

[davidbrit2]

My entire point is that this teacher probably sucks. Read that original quote. She wants the iPad to be an electronic babysitter, because she never learned classroom management.

I also think it's pointless to have an iPad for every single kindergarten student, period. They stand to gain little from constant exposure to it. Have a couple for the classroom so that a few students can occasionally spend time with them (we did this with an Apple IIe when I was in kindergarten), but at that age, having such a large allocation wouldn't have much benefit, and would potentially do more harm than good. They're going to be spending at least another 12 years in school - let's focus on teaching them how to interact with the teacher and other students, rather than just drawing inward staring at their iPad.

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Brilliant! When kindergarten is in large part about helping kids learn to socialize, let's give them a tool that has shown little evidence of making people more social. Maybe they will learn early how to post snarky anonymous comments of internet sites.

Orthopedics are pissed

[h4x354x0r]

No, iPads won't do a darned thing to help education unless someone really understands how to exploit the platform. For those in the education industry, this number is close to zero. But I'm all for them anyway, because they aren't shown to damage education much, either, and... if it can reduce the weight of a backpack otherwise full of dead tree books and reduce the orthopedic strain on small bodies, that's a good thing.

No shit

[Sycraft-fu]

I've always been annoyed by the Apple fans in education and the iDevice thing has taken it to a whole new level. The reason is, as you point out, our education system is perpetually underfunded. That means what resources they do have need to be used to the best degree possible. Now I'm not saying Apple is never the solution, but given that their products are rather costly, I am going to venture to say usually there is a better solution.

This is clearly a case of a fanboy saying "Oooo, these shiny toys would be so cool, let's get them for the kids!" I see no evidence that iPads are useful for educating youngsters. While I'm sure they like them, that isn't the same thing. Even if they do work, one always has to ask if there are other things that work just as well and for less money. I mean sure, you could have software that does things like colour identification. You can also do that with crayons and they are $6 for 24 of them ordered at retail prices.

It is very sad when districts pull shit like this. It hurts education. Reminds me of shortly after I went to university my mom called me (she was a teacher) to tell me of the stupidity of the district: They decided high speed Internet was important for education so bought a T1 line to the district office. Ya that helped schools a whole not at all.

Re:No shit

[UBfusion]

The education system is perpetually underfunded and will remain so. To be cynical, on average less than one out of the 20 or so pupils in each class will ever become an "important" citizen i.e. a politician or a company executive. Therefore, from a financial point of view, education was always a lossy investment, while at the same time being an essential human and kids right. The extent to which a government finances education depends on the political/financial decision of where to define the equilibrium point between "sustainability" and the Constitution. Isn't capitalism great?

Imaginary String

[brantondaveperson]

..the square root of not having real string....

Sad thing is

[Sycraft-fu]

I can see the fanboy that pushed this program trying to justify it as such. One of our student workers is an Apple fanboy and it is funny to listen to him talk about the iPad. He spits out the marketing literature and listening to him talk, you really would think that it is some revolutionary new device, completely different from anything we've seen before. He really believes it too, he has some strange cognitive dissonance going on in that he knows it is just a large smartphone, more or less, or a simple computer, but he's convinced it is something completely new all the same.

Cats learn from cats, monkeys learn from monkeys

[holophrastic]

Your can certainly self-learn and self-teach just about anything. But a) most people don't, at any age and b) not nearly as well as when taught by someone else.

Most importantly, if the teacher doesn't provide the attention, and doesn't provide the interaction, then they simply aren't needed. You don't need to go to school to learn from a device that you can have at home. Once again, "school" has nothing to do with "education", it has to do with being amongst others (like fish).

So the teacher becomes the baby-sitter. Congratulations. Way to make everything worse and then find yourself out of a job. Well deserved.

Depends on more than that

[Sycraft-fu]

Even if it runs all the right software, the question isn't can kids use it to learn on, the question is if they learn more efficiently or better than with cheaper means. Remember these things are pricey. So to be worth it they can't be as good as what you had before, they have to be a good deal better.

Too young for Facebook

[margeman2k3]

I wonder if the fact that they're too young to know what's on the internet (games + facebook, specifically), will affect how they use it.
While teenagers would spend all their time online trying to play games and/or screw around on Facebook, these kids wouldn't be doing that.
So they'll be spending more time using these things "properly"...

It's going to have more of an impact on these kids than on teenagers, but whether it's going to be beneficial or detrimental... we'll just need to wait and see...

Why do slashdot readers lack vision?

[Jmc23]

This place is supposed to be full of techies and programmers and all I can see are people whining about how tech is a waste of resources and won't help education.

Can nobody really understand that it's the software that makes the difference? Can nobody really envision how immediate feedback would greatly accelerate learning? If you're a programmer why complain about tech being wasted on these kids and instead spend your eneegy programming to this demographic? If you have a child write them some software and just see how excited and engaged they can become just by pressing the key the key that corresponds to what is displayed on the screen. It took me a couple hours to do that and I had a 3 year old want play it for hours.

Really, if all you can do is complain about what the current state of reality is and can't envision how to make it a benefit to others then you are part of the problem with how the world currently is.

Re:WOW

[jo_ham]

Perhaps you needed an iPad as a kid?

If you think any IT-related overall cost is solely for the minimum hardware for the number of users (in this case 250) then you're simply not cut out for this discussion.

The summary mentions hard cases, so that will add to the cost, as well as the support cost and spares, and tablets for staff and so on.

It's not just $200,000/250. How laughably simplistic.

MOD PARENT UP...

[SETIGuy]

Wish I could.

The next Linus Torvalds is out there

[theurge14]

Back in my day in elementary school the only class that had computers was my GT class. In that class were VIC-20s and Commodore 128s. One hour out of the day was dedicated to just the computers, then back to regular work.

At the time these computers were considered a wasteful luxury, spending could've been saved for more useful things like textbooks and cleaning supplies that were so dire.

Those classes were my introduction to computers, and it changed my life.

You know who else got his start on a VIC-20? That's right, Linus himself.

Rochester, NY too

[KingAlanI]

Not exactly a cornerstone, but in I recall seeing a plaque at Rochester NY's Wilson High (then called West High) commemorating students who went off to fight in World War _One_, dating the building to about that 100-year timeframe. (It happens to be a few years older)

I did already think of the one-room-schoolhouse more as a 19th-century thing.

My Boy vs. The World

[bill_mcgonigle]

Does the kid get another? Do they have to pay? What a mess.

My boy is old enough to be starting kindergarten this fall. He's doing another year of preschool because that's what will serve him best, but OMFG, the kid can break everything. Twice, and then in half again. If he's in the same room with something, it's broken. I have a gigantic pile of stuff in my workshop labeled "the boy broke this - fix it".

A protective case for an iPad? I'll tell you what kind of protective case he'd need for an iPad - a gun safe. With a biometric lock - he's clever and destructive.

If he were going into kindergarten and I was responsible for the iPads he broke, I'd be out $3000 by Christmas.

Whoever came up with this idea never had any kids. They also wrote the voice interfaces for Bing411 that assume input in an anechoic chamber.

Re:My Boy vs. The World

[SuricouRaven]

Even secondary schools know never to buy a monitor without a hard glass panel in front of the delicate, pokeable LCD display. I've seen pupils bite through mouse cables before. We once had a local network outage due to defenestration of a switch - and I'm sure iPads could follow that route too.

Re:My Boy vs. The World

[Macgrrl]

[quote]A protective case for an iPad? I'll tell you what kind of protective case he'd need for an iPad - a gun safe. With a biometric lock - he's clever and destructive.[/quote]

Thanks, now I need to clean the screen... of my iPad. :P

Re:My Boy vs. The World

[Macgrrl]

Hrm... guess who spends far too much time on sites that use BBCode...

AND SOFTWARE!

[sortadan]

Amazed a story (summary) on Slashdot completely glossed over the most important part of this whole experiment, and the ingredient that will ultimately cause this experiment to succeed or fail: the software... well, when this experiment plays out on older kids IMO. I hope it's good for the kids sake. Welcome to Parenthood 2.0 (tm).

Reminds me of The Diamond Age: Or, a Young Lady's Illustrated Primer. Awesome book.

Or we could just have a policial system

[rsilvergun]

where life isn't a constant struggle for survival. I'm just sayin'...

Amazon Rebranding Imminent?

[Y-Crate]

Kindlegarten

Re:Well, goldurn

[Shoe Puppet]

when I was in high school in the 90's they still had math books from the 70's

I didn't realize that highschool-level mathematics changed so dramatically since the 1970's

Not mathematics, but pedagogic principles certainly did.

I haven't read all the comments, but...

[Bruce McBruce]

Is anyone else missing the elephant in the room of these ipads being given out to improve low test scores in small children?

Seriously, this shit is getting ridiculous. Has anyone stopped to wonder if putting so much pressure on young children to perform at some standard designated by a bunch of people older and more obsessed with themselves might be contributing to the problem? I sure remember the moment I lost interest in reading: when it became a fucking chore.

Maybe instead of distributing expensive objects no-one in their right mind would trust a kindergartener with to kindergarteners, they should reach out and try to change their apparently-shitty teaching methods.

Student Teacher Ratio

[vlm]

Mrs. McCarthy says the tools give her 19 students

There's the problem. Admittedly $800 ipads won't fix it. Get that ratio down, scores will improve.

My sister in law was a teacher in an experimental federal program some years ago to "do whatever is necessary" to get the ratio down to 15 kids per teacher. That's only $3200 worth of ipads, not enough to hire a teacher, but Maybe a couple hours a week during reading class from a part time aide... (They're back to having 25 kids in a class now, it was unfortunately temporary, she said it was nice while it lasted)

With today's inferior culture, you need ratios that low to keep order. As a pre-emptive strike, its unnecessary to provide anecdotes about how your lilly-white both parents married and living together WASPy school 30 years ago kept order with thirty kids per teacher. That's just not how things are now.

The other question that is NEVER EVER mentioned, probably intentionally, is who pays for the itunes app store? My sis-in-law has a capital grant to place exactly six ipads in her classroom this fall, but as far as I know, no yearly itunes fund. In fact I don't think itunes has the facility for governmental purchase orders. I'm not even sure her PC is fast enough to run itunes... Maybe parents will be guilt tripped into buying itunes gift cards along with the rest of the school supplies? She knows I have an ipad, and was asking me what to do with just 6 ipads for 25 kids and no app budget, and I told her I frankly have no idea what-so-ever. The best free "kids" websites are all flash based like starfall, etc, so probably not websites. Pirated media like "educational" videos, maybe? The kids are too young to be decent pirates, so you can't rely on them. This is a good example of how "throwing money at the problem" makes the teachers less effective, because she has to burn valuable time trying to figure out how to make it look like a good investment, if she ever wants future capital investments to be approved such as paint for the walls or new books, instead of working on teaching. And the boss has to blow time and money on human monitoring or software monitoring "solutions" to make sure the kids aren't just watching miley cyrus videos using their ipads.

why so late?

[alphatel]

One of our kids is two and regularly uses his iPad to watch his favorite NickJr shows, play puzzle games, and interact (rather poorly I might add), with musical instruments.

Why is Maine waiting until these kids are 5? My child mocks their tech naiveté!

Re:Well, goldurn

[hb253]

I can't decide which 70's math I like better: the early hippy, Vietnam protesty type, or the later disco-ey white leisure suit type.

The wrong solution

[lsatenstein]

How can a teacher get her own free ipad? Have the schools dole them out.

The kids wont know what to do with a crayon, or how to hold a pen or pencil. Since the Ipad is the newest toy. Will it save the school money? Yes.

Poor poor approach to automating teachers. The only things kids will know is how to put an x on a cheque, or is that a check. Well, whatever.

...Common Sense...

[Stone2065]

To quote a poster...

"So rare it ought to be a goddamn super power..."

After you read this thread

[berryjw]

Stop and consider how many of these posters would have to look up the word 'pedagogy', before they could respond to my saying they have no understanding of it. Consider it this way - what merit would you give a K-12 teacher, criticizing your coding techniques? Most to the geeks here know no more about early childhood development or classroom management than the teacher would about object oriented programming. The biggest difference is most teachers wouldn't dream of assessing someone's programming skills, whereas this thread gleefully makes assessments of an instructional method not exposed in the summary. 1) Stop insisting your children live in your remembered childhood world. If this worked, we'd still be drawing on rocks. 2) These students live in a world where this technology is ubiquitous. They learn from their parents, from the time they're born, about cell phones and laptops and game boxes, oh-my, and think no more of them than we do automobiles, these devices just are. What reality is it where you expect them to walk into an educational environment where these are outlawed, in favor of sixty-plus year old methods and tools? 3) Education is an investment in our children. How is it there are no successful enterprises in today's world which do not spend large sums on computing power, yet we expect our children to compete while we quibble over the cost of paper? 4) China has more honor students than the USA has students. Be concerned over what they're investing in them. Then consider what we're investing in ours. This is not about devices, it's about education. What's broken isn't just the hardware we're using, but the system stuck in a 1940's mentality. If you change the way you teach, the devices become the tools most of us adults are using them as, and learning benefits enormously. If you just throw equipment into an antiquated system, it's wasted. If all you can do is complain about equipment costs, go tell your boss you're going back to paper, pencil, and the USPS.

these are baby sitters

[ThurstonMoore]

It's a lot easier to justfy a bunch of iPads than a bunch of Game Boys, but they can serve the same purpose.

another waste for a public school?

[raymorphic]

"be another case where spending more money does not produce a better educational outcome." second this, especially in a public school environment where the curriculum were hijacked by the bureaucrats. the infrastructure argument have been used by the Unions as an excuse for getting more funding. for private education, it's a different story. private schools can probably utilize gadgetes like these better.

Budgeting in the wrong area

[Kyrubas]

Treat the grade school system like the private colleges claim to treat classes: reduce the class size and improve teacher quality. Technology isn't going to be some magic bullet that enlightens the children by itself. It will only be as good as the teacher and the attention they can provide on a case by case basis.

2 way street

[hesaigo999ca]

Yes and No

Yes, when you see the average of the student skyrocket because now he is so interested in schooling due to the fact that it is done on such a cool piece of hardware where all the other students have as well regardless of their family's financial standings therefor will not be shunned for being poor etc...

No, because now this will cost an arm and a leg, and also lead to other issues such as configurations and such...needing admins for even the kindergarden....unless of course apple sees to it that they are ready to use out of the box for the kids....say through some sort of support contract...as well as if we force to keep the ipads (give them back in at the end of the day) and keep them under lock and key so as not to lose any and spend another arm and a leg to replace lost or stolen or broken ones due to children ineptitude.

where's the "article got it wrong" post?

[Sebastopol]

I'm reading the comments hoping to come across one that points out this is a private school, or that they were donated, or that they already gave their federal funding surplus back to other needy schools... but no luck. Man, I try to stick up for public schools as much as I can, but what the hell? Given the state of schools, this is such a colossal waste. They could have hired 6 new teachers for $200k, or one teacher for 6 years.

This is not new, Maine has been doing this awhile

[gforsythe]

This is not ground breaking news. Maine has had a laptop program in existence for no less than 7-8 years. The idea that they are using iPad's is just a matter of choice and bidding between a PC vendor and Apple who makes deals directly. They not only have the iPad's they also get classroom gear such as whiteboards that will transmit what the teachers write on it to the iPad. Each classroom has one and they go for 20k each retail. They also come with a boat load of software packages. I won't get into whether it's worth it or not... I'm not a big believer in public education as it is today...

The iPad doesn't give attention

[Murdoch5]

I fail to see how the iPad gives a student attention. There were at least 20 kids in my kindergarten class, I think 25 students and the teacher had time for everyone of us. I can understand giving the kids an iPad to get them going to technology sooner and getting them in the upstream of the information highway, but giving attention is one thing the iPad doesn't do. It might have a shiny screen and fun games but that's not attention that's distraction.

Can the kids take these home? Also the iPad is expensive, they should of gone with one of the cheaper tablets like the JooJoo. 19 kids isn't a lot of kids, for years in elementary and secondary school we had upwards of 35+ kids a class from grade 5 -> 12, so again I don't see why the teacher doesn't have time for 19 kids, seems to me it's lazy teaches and deep pockets trying to distract kids rather then help them.

what can a kindergartner learn from an ipad?

[OrangeTide]

I thought the purpose of kindergarten was to teach fresh new students how to behave in a class room, how to get along with other children, and other social skills generally involving large groups. Is there really all that much a child can learn from an iPad? I seem to recall the days when sitting quietly playing with a computer was considered anti-social behaviour. When was the big switch? When a fresh new crowd of young teachers came into the industry with golden plans to revolutionize education?

Sorry, but computers don't replace interaction from teachers and other students. Eventually we will realize that this is all a big waste of money, but first we will have to actually ways a few trillion dollars on it to convince ourselves of the fact.

Re:WOW

[Macgrrl]

From the TFA they purchased 100 units and were planning to purchase a further 225 units out of the $200,000 fund. That's 325 units in total to being with, plus covers, insurance, spares, etc...

If you are going to argue based on math, at least get the variables correct.