Ask Slashdot: Does Being 'Loyal' Pay As a Developer?

An anonymous reader writes "As a senior developer for a small IT company based in the UK that is about to release their flagship project, I know that if I were to leave the company now, it would cause them some very big problems. I'm currently training the other two 'junior' developers, trying to bring them up to speed with our products. Unfortunately, they are still a long way from grasping the technologies used – not to mention the 'interesting' job the outsourced developers managed to make of the code. Usually, I would never have considered leaving at such a crucial time; I've been at the company for several years and consider many of my colleagues, including higher management, to be friends. However, I have been approached by another company that is much bigger, and they have offered me a pay rise of £7k to do the same job, plus their office is practically outside my front door (as opposed to my current 45 minute commute each way). This would make a massive difference to my life. That said, I can't help but feel that to leave now would be betraying my friends and colleagues. Some friends have told me that I'm just being 'soft' – however I think I'm being loyal. Any advice?"

Comments

Tacos for dinner

[Anonymous Coward]

Always a shitty situation. Sometimes I think you can grow with a company.. they get bigger, can pay you more/give you better opportunities. In most cases though, it seems that eventually you outgrow a small company. You grow faster than they do, and gradually the outside offers get more and more tempting.

This kind of thing is hard for me, because I have the same “leaving now would screw these guys” kind of thinking. You’ll be hearing from the “business is business, do what’s best for you, they’d drop you in a heartbeat if they could save a buck” crowd soon enough.

The only thing I can say is that people are usually not as critical as would seem. I’ve been amazed on several occasions at how quickly someone I would describe as “if we lose him we are screwed” is replaced. People step up and figure shit out. It is rocky, and will cause headaches, but eventually people make it work.

Re:Tacos for dinner

[randomencounter]

Indeed, give fair notice and make the move if you think the new company is a good match for you.

Loyalty is a good thing, but sometimes it also holds back the people you are being loyal to.

Re:Tacos for dinner

[tonywong]

Talk to employees at your potential new place of employment first.

You might get offered more but you might be the first cut as well. £7k more is a huge amount but it won't help you if you're unemployed because the shop is one of those hire/fire cycling places. Unless you're the type of person who can find a job within a weekend based on your skillset and persona.

Re:Tacos for dinner

[ConceptJunkie]

The problem with this kind of thinking is that more and more the "evil boss" is becoming the norm. It might not be your immediate boss... in fact, it's less likely to be, but in my experience, it's more and more common that somewhere between your boss and the top, there will be some vindictive bastard with an exaggerated sense of self-importance who will make you pay for it. The same happens to people who voice a contrary opinion, no matter how diplomatic and constructive.

Therefore, if you find yourself in a situation where you don't like the direction things are going, or decisions are frequently made where your input is ignored and it turns out you were right... the only logical choice is to leave.

My natural instinct has always been towards loyalty, but the people and organizations that value loyalty, or who would exercise it themselves, are becoming more and more rare.

You need to ask yourself this: If the situations were reversed, would the company dump you like a week-old fish? If your answer is anything but a firm "No", then you owe them loyalty only to the point where it puts you at a disadvantage. I'm not advocating a "screw them before they screw you", but just pointing out that more and more, no one is going to look out for you but yourself, and if you are willing to give loyalty, that's great, but if you expect it back, you're a fool.

I don't think your hangup is loyalty...

[CyberSnyder]

...it's the fear of the unknown. What if it's not as good as it looks? If you're making more money and gaining an hour and a half every day it's a no brainer.

Re:I don't think your hangup is loyalty...

[nschubach]

Agreed. I'm actually on my last day of my two weeks of notice (it's typical, gave me a little time to train my co-workers. If they can't pick it up, I wasn't being paid enough.)

Give them plenty of notice, spend your last days passing on whatever knowledge you can to help (if you really care) and let them manage. If they really want to keep you aboard they may come back with a counter, but I think most companies understand that would be an awkward situation so they probably won't.

Re:I don't think your hangup is loyalty...

[TheRaven64]

Depends on the industry. If you leave a company like in a situation like that then there are two things that may happen. One is that the company really couldn't afford to lose you at that time, and goes bust. You'll then have a company that went bankrupt on your CV, which doesn't look great, especially if the next person hiring you knows why. The second is that your former manager may be friends with the next person you want to hire you, and lets them know that you left them in the lurch.

Given the description in the summary, I would definitely take the job, but there are several ways of doing it. First, talk to both managers. See if you can get a bit more time before you move. Also see if the new company would be willing to subcontract you out to the old company for a day or two a month for the next year to ease the transition. This gives the new company some extra income and gives the old company the time to finish training your replacements.

Re:I don't think your hangup is loyalty...

[forestgomp]

...it's the fear of the unknown. What if it's not as good as it looks? If you're making more money and gaining an hour and a half every day it's a no brainer.

As my mother always said: "Never love anything that can't love you back." A company is a perfect example of this. And you're absolutely correct that fear of the unknown is a factor. That isn't necessarilly a bad thing -- because the new job might have unknown deficiencies (as well as benefits). Its a cost-benefit analysis without full information, rather than a no brainer:

current job:
negative aspects (less pay; long commute)
positive aspects (friends, including among management)

new job:
negative aspects (no friends, others??)
positive aspects (more pay, short commute, others??)

The question is, do the known positives make up for the risk of the unknown negatives?

Re:I don't think your hangup is loyalty...

[Homr Zodyssey]

I disagree that it looks bad on your resume to have left a company that then went bust. If a company goes bust because of a single employee leaving, then they are poorly managed. If you left shortly before they went bust, that shows you have a good head on your shoulders and were able to sense that the company was heading down.

Re:I don't think your hangup is loyalty...

[TheRaven64]

Wait, you're expecting people making hiring decisions to be rational?

Does your company have loyalty to you?

[gbrandt]

You have to remember that your company has no loyalty to you. If their revenues drop and they have to save money, your job will be on the line!

Always do whats best for you and yours (family).

Re:Does your company have loyalty to you?

[mla_anderson]

That's not always true. I worked for a small company through some of the worst times that industry experienced. Our sales went below 50% of previous years and our net income went negative. Instead of laying people off the managers took cuts. When things got a little better, the managers went without raises so the rest of us could have small raises and larger bonuses (bonuses are cheaper in the long run). I would have never left if I didn't want to leave that part of the country.

Re:Does your company have loyalty to you?

[chispito]

You have to remember that your company has no loyalty to you.

He works for a small company, and that's not always the case.

Re:Does your company have loyalty to you?

[TheRaven64]

That depends on the company. During the recession in the '80s, the managers at my father's company were the first to take pay cuts. When they were still making a loss, they gave the employees a choice of shifting to part time, taking a pay cut, or having some redundancies. The employees opted for a mixture of the first two. When the economy recovered, there were bonuses for the people who'd stayed and the old pay rates were reinstated, with the management pay rate being the last to return to its pre-recession value.

If you're certain that the company that you work for wouldn't do something like this in times of financial difficulty, then maybe you should consider moving elsewhere now, rather than when they get someone cheaper to do your job...

Re:Does your company have loyalty to you?

[pr0nbot]

I too am a senior developer for a small UK company. For me it is most definitely not the case - our company is run more like a cooperative, with profit sharing etc. However the OP mentions that work has been outsourced; I think this says everything he needs to know about his company's loyalty towards staff (i.e. cheap employee trumps loyal employee).

Re:Does your company have loyalty to you?

[FreakyGreenLeaky]

/me takes off employer hat
Correct - his priority should be his family, it would be mine. He'd be a fool to turn down the other gig.

/me puts employer hat back on
It sucks crusty pustule arse when someone you have invested in and someone you have proven your loyalty to, and befriended, picks up and leaves. But hey, that's the way it works - you get over it. Ultimately, the best performing company is one which acts aggressively, ruthlessly and decisively, much like a psychopath would - no feelings, pure need and logic (hence the comment by someone else that you shouldn't feel too much for a company because when it comes down to it, you will be fired if the need arises) - a company is, after all, not a person. It's a business. If it's not turning a profit, it's dying.

However, a company is still run by people who can hold grudges: Give *plenty* of notice. Two weeks is not enough, irrespective of local laws. It's all about being decent and respectful (you are after all, not a psychopath :). If you resign correctly and do all that you can to train your replacement, they (management) will respect you for it, no matter how much it stings that you are leaving them. Do *not* burn your bridges by giving the bare minimum notice, and playing solitaire (how nineties of me, you kids do facebook all fucking day) to kill time. That shit will ultimately come back to haunt you when future employers/agencies contact them for a reference.

Re:Does your company have loyalty to you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily. I've seen it go both ways so you may be correct about his company. On the other hand, outsourcing can be useful to handle temporary staffing needs while protecting existing employees. I've used outsourcing to avoid hiring people that I would probably have to lay off when a big project ends. I only hire people when I'm confident I can continue to pay them.

However, your basic point is solid. Does the company have loyalty to you. You need to look at how the company operates and how have they treated other employees. For example, when a good employee has trouble and needs time off to deal with life, family, etc. Is the company supportive or do they kick him to the curb. Will the company go the extra mile to stick with an employee that's struggling but really trying to improve. These are the real tests.

Since it sounds like he just completed a successful project. I would recommend he ask for a promotion and raise BUT NOT mention the other offer. If the employer cannot afford the raise they can at least give the promotion and promise the raise at a later date. If he gets neither, then perhaps he isn't as valuable to the company as he thinks and it might be better to move on.

Why not use it as a bargaining chip?

[ByOhTek]

Ask for a raise, see if you get it.

Loyalty is a consideration - but first comes paying the bills. Are you happy and satisfied with where you work, and your style of living? Would the 7k increase be worth it for you, to switch, and leave them where they are? Company is about risks and resources, if they don't manage their resources and take a risk at loosing something that is important and even key to what they are doing, it is their problem, not yours.

Re:Why not use it as a bargaining chip?

[ShadyG]

I personally would not use the new job as a "bargaining chip", in that I'd bring it to the old boss and try to get them to match or beat the deal. IMO that has the potential to create bad blood. Instead, without ever mentioning any other opportunity I would just ask to open up negotiations for a raise. Focus on what your value to the company is and has been. You're training a couple of junior developers, so why not ask for a manager position with those two your first direct reports? No doubt such a position has additional responsibilities commensurate with the raise you're seeking. It will also reflect better on your resume when you do eventually seek out another position.

If you and they cannot agree on an acceptable solution, then you should definitely not feel bad about jumping ship. It may very well be that your actual value to the new company is simply more than it is to the old. Everyone wants to be valuable, and maybe this new company can better utilize your skills and experience. Their offer appears to indicate at least they think so.

Re:Why not use it as a bargaining chip?

[sfled]

I was in a similar situation, and that's exactly what I did. A job opened up closer to my home and on-target with my then new-found interest in web development. I told my old boss that I would be leaving in two weeks, and that I was saddened but explained the circumstances: better pay, less commute, more job satisfaction. He responded by asking how much they were offering. He then matched the salary, told me he would pay for my time commuting, and asked me to use some of my time to develop a web site for the company. Win-win boss. Disclaimer: I did eventually leave years later to form my own company. We're still friends and he's a customer, so yeah, he's still in some ways my boss :)

Re:Why not use it as a bargaining chip?

[martyros]

Ask for a raise, see if you get it.

It's often a lot easier to get a raise with a competing offer in hand -- if you like the company where you work and the people, that's what I'd do first -- ask for an $8k raise.

Loyalty is a consideration

The thing is, even if your first-level manager is loyal to you, the company as a whole isn't. What happens if there's a strategic shift in 6 months and they decide to shut down your department, or completely reorganize things so you're no longer doing what you want anymore? You're now either looking for a job, or stuck with a job you don't like, as well as a lower salary, thinking about that job that you turned down and is no longer available.

Re:Why not use it as a bargaining chip?

[cs668]

I would ask my employer for a raise - explain why you are worth it and see what happens. I would not tell them about the other offer, ever. They won't view your asking for a raise in the same way if they know about the other offer and they will not trust you in the same way again. Particularly if it is a tight nit group the way you described it.

Re:Why not use it as a bargaining chip?

[HornWumpus]

When I was in this situation I didn't tell them of the offer directly.

I talked to the office snitch (who thought I wasn't on to her) and mentioned 'in confidence' that I as 99.9% out the door, just finished the 3rd interview at the new place.

Two days later they made me an offer better then the new place. By not telling them exactly what the other place was offering they had to guess.

Then again you may not be as vital as you think. The nice thing about this is you don't tip your hand.

Re:Why not use it as a bargaining chip?

[sgt101]

Worth saying that :

1. If they don't match and give you compensation for the commute then it's a sure sign that they would get rid of you without a moments thought if they needed to.

2. If they do match then it's a good bet that they will hang on to you in hard times.

Go for it, AND be loyal

[markdavis]

It sounds like a deal you shouldn't pass up. And I admire your loyalty. Your new employer will appreciate your loyalty, too, when you explain to them how you still need to help your old company out.

I am sure they would accommodate your working with your old employer until they can get on their feet once again. Perhaps telecommute some, or work at the old job a few days a week.

If they had objections to that, I would question wanting to work for them...

Re:Go for it, AND be loyal

[tom229]

This.

We actually just had this happen at my work place. The most senior guy that had been here since the company started got a better offer. He got offered large raises, stock options, etc, to stay but ultimately wanted to try something new.

What ended up happening is he is now working for his new job, making more money, and he still consults for us at around $80 an hour.

Ultimately you have to do what's best for you and you aren't betraying anybody by doing so. Your boss will figure out what to do and if he can't, his business would have never survived anyways.

No commute?

[stoicfaux]

plus their office is practically outside my front door (as opposed to my current 45 minute commute each way). This would make a massive difference to my life.

The commute alone is worth switching for. That's an (unpaid) hour and a half of your life that you get back.

Re:No commute?

[Fast Thick Pants]

I very much agree. You can even repurpose that hour and a half to make yourself available on a consulting basis to the old gig. You know they're going to be calling you anyway, so you might as well get paid for it. You'll be saving money and time on the commute, and padding your income a little. Helping the old shop through the post-you transitional phase is good karma, and the unburnt bridge may come in handy at some point in the future.

Re:No commute?

[MadKeithV]

I certainly hope your friends at your old company will understand purely for this. No one should be commuting away so much of their day. That's either personal time or company time. Either one is trouble. Once you have some time with your new job and more than an hour opens up each day, you'll not think twice about your old job. Your friends perhaps, but let them continue being friends! I'd rather drive 45 minutes to a BBQ than a job!

Quoted for truth, by someone with a one-commute of over an hour.
Consider this calculation (european standards, sorry USians):

• You work 8 hours a day.
• You commute 2 hours a day
• You sleep 8 hours a day.
• You do household chores 2 hours a day

That's 20 hours, which leaves you 4 hours of "free time". Now consider that commute goes away. You have just given yourself a 50% raise in free time. If you value that time, and you can make do with the money you make, you'd need a much more substantial raise to stick with the commute if that's your type of logic.

Loyalty?

[kimvette]

Loyalty to your employer? Are you kidding? They would fire your ass in a heartbeat as soon as the numbers exhibit a downturn. Our parents' generation could rely on employers to consider loyalty a two-way street; you don't job surf and they give you all kinds of benefits including pensions, profit sharing, and so on. Now, decision makers don't think twice about firing thousands of workers when the numbers take a temporary dip, just so they can show shareholders a temporary spike in profits to get their bonuses.

Besides, do you live to work, or do you work to live?

Fuck loyalty to your employer. Take the better offer.

Re:Loyalty?

[scamper_22]

Loyalty to some nameless corporation? No.

But ultimately, life is about the relationships you build.
Your manage, that product manger, your director, your coop students, your underlings...

These are people like any other who understand loyalty.
Loyalty to the company and these folks is different, but intertwined.

You don't leave the company without leaving all those individuals

It's a complicated social world and you have to be smart about it.

I would never leave a good job for a few thousand.
1. Ask your employer to match the salary. A few thousand is nothing for a company. The sales guy probably drink that much in a month.
2. In the grand scheme, do you enjoy the work? Do you like your colleagues?

Re:Loyalty?

[webheaded]

Dude, in US dollars this guy is talking about somewhere in the ball park of $10,000. I don't know about you, but that makes things a little different. 10k dollar raise and a commute that is a fraction of the old one...I mean shit...that's hitting the jackpot. Quite frankly, I can learn to like my colleagues at the new place as long as there aren't warning signs of it being a hell hole. That's why you leave on good terms with the old employer. The act of leaving shouldn't burn any bridges if you aren't an asshole about it. If it was me, I'd offer to help them over the phone here and there after I left...possibly for free if I liked the people there enough. An hour on the phone here or there isn't a big idea and the whole "money is time" idea is bullshit anyway. I wouldn't be doing anything productive during that hour anyway so I can do something nice for people I like.

Document

[David Gerard]

Either way, you should document the hell out of everything so that if you were hit by a bus tomorrow they wouldn't be similarly fucked.

Re:Document

[royallthefourth]

A good developer would warn them of this, but he can't take action on it until they decide to actually assign him the task of documentation. In the real world, they won't care about documentation until it's too late and the whole time he will have been working on some other undocumented code. They'll tell him to document things, but will never be willing to push back the schedule to deal with the extra work of creating the docs. At least that's been my experience.

Of course if he's actually hit by a bus, he no longer needs to worry about it!

All obligations have been met

[SuiteSisterMary]

Assuming that all contractual obligations have been met, you've exchanged your work for their money. If you no longer wish to exchange your work for their money, that's no problem. Rest assured, if they no longer wanted to exchange their money for your work, they'd have no problem terminating that little arrangement.

Besides, there are ways of arranging for exclusivity. In many fields, they're codified. Retainers, tenure, whatever. If they wanted to keep you for a fixed amount of time, they'd have entered into contractual negotiations with you.

If you want to leave, leave. Just make sure you follow the legal and standard practices; two weeks notice or whatever it is across the pond.

Consulting

[XxtraLarGe]

Why not take the new job & act as a consultant on the old job?

Rels 1 and 2

[rmkeene]

Rule 1: Always do what is best for you. The company has no loyalty what so ever to you. Individual managers may have loyalty but the 'company' has none. Rule 2: Never burn your bridges. Leave on the best good will terms possible.

half the problem is what you're getting paid.

[SkunkPussy]

this means they're not paying you enough; therefore you should see if they'll match what the other company will offer. dunno what you could do about the 90 mins travel time though

Loyalty and Outsourcing?

[Klync]

I was going to side with you on the loyalty argument, until I read that your employer outsources (some of) their programming. What does that say about their commitment to loyalty? On the one hand, it helps to maintain a good network of industry contacts for the long-term good of your career. On the other hand, it *is* possible to maintain a good relationship with your old co-workers, while simultaneously "looking out for number one".

  Is you leaving going to be *difficult*, or will it break their entire business? That is, you can rest easy if you cause a bit of inconvenience, but just try not to screw them too badly: ask your new employer if you can have a couple of weeks before you officially start; or a "transition period" where you can remain on-call (e.g. a half-day a week when needed) to the old team.

See this situation before...

[mikael]

This looks like the typical situation of company A trying to fuck over company B, just when company B is about to release a product. Company A won't be wanting to help you out, but simply get you away from company B. They probably won't treat you any better, if not worse.

I'd stay until the project is complete - explain that to company B. If they don't appreciate that, then they don't really want you that badly.

Seen this happen before to other people, and happen to myself. In the long term, having worked on a project from start to finish counts more than leaving half-way through. Who knows, it might be get bought out by a large company.

Bargain

[Geoffrey.landis]

Tell your current company about the offer, and see if you get a counter-offer.

(and if they don't counter, you know how you're valued. Leave.)

Re:Bargain

[jellomizer]

The problem is if they match their offer. Then they feel like that you now owe them one. And you will not get your raise or promotion anytime soon. Or they will now expect much greater things from you. Overall it is better to take the new offer and put in your notice. That way you leave on good terms, and don't do anything to disrupt the terms you are in.

Re:Bargain

[Anrego]

(and if they don't counter, you know how you're valued. Leave.)

Or more commonly, they can't afford it.

This tends to be the problem, as was said, companies grow slower than employees. Eventually the employee is worth more than the company can pay.

Re:Bargain

[Verdatum]

This is woefully true. I had a coworker try this technique. He got the match, but afterwards the company was pretty bitter towards him.

Re:Bargain

[delinear]

Agreed. If you take a counter offer and stay, the chances are those relationships that were previously good may well turn sour. The company may also see you as disloyal or a risk and they'll likely seek to recruit/promote someone over you as soon as possible to minimise the risk of you leaving. Once they've done that, it's actually in their interests if you leave, since they don't want to be paying two lead developers if one is all they need - at that point, welcome to being lumbered with all the crap tasks. This isn't always the case, but I've seen it happen enough that I wouldn't take the risk.

Conversely leaving isn't disloyal, it's just natural - if they'd hold grudges agains you for wanting to move forwards then that gives you a good indication of how they really view you - fairweather friends at best. Be open and honest and do whatever you can to ease the transition (when I've been in this position before I've made it clear I was on the end of the phone for transitional issues after I've gone so long as they didn't abuse the offer) but be firm, and it probably helps if you make it clear this is not just about money but about expanding your experience/skills/better work/life balance etc (even if it is about money, you don't want to be seen as a mercenary dick - it's a small world after all). Of course, I'm biased as I hate any kind of commute - I'd probably take a 7k pay cut if I could work in walking distance from home rather than 1.5 hours :)

Re:Bargain

[Aladrin]

That's really risky proposition. The problem is that they might give you the raise to keep you... While they train your replacement. Then you've lost your current job and don't have another one lined up.

Re:Bargain

[unrtst]

Sort of... it's all in the way it's portrayed.

If you come right out and say "someone else is offering me more money. GIve me a big raise or I'm leaving.", then you'll sound like an ass and like your trying to extort money from them.

However, try explaining to them why you are worth more, and request a raise, and don't mention the other job, and you won't be taken as if you're trying to hold them hostage. Don't make threats to leave - they could make similar threats to you to fire you all throughout your employment, and you wouldn't have liked that or put up with it. If they give you enough that you feel happy being there still, great... keep that job (IMO, it doesn't have to be as much as the next company is offering if I'm actually happy with my current job, cause that happiness has a HUGE value, and the other job is an unknown).

All that said, the poster said the old job was 45min away, and the new job is at his front door. I'm lazy. I'd take that new job. You can do the same number of hours of work at the new job with about 20% less time devoted to the job (travel time). Bonus - you can go home for lunch and grill a steak.

Re:Bargain

[CrispyZorro]

Tell your current company about the offer, and see if you get a counter-offer.

Do not do this! This is terrible advice. As an IT manager, I would be pissed if someone came to me with leverage. Being forced to make a decision is not pleasant. I would much rather have the employee come to me with a business case for giving him or her a raise. If I am worth my pay, I know what the resource is worth and will come up with the raise if I can and it is within my budget. Do not accept any stalling tactics as you could lose both opportunities.

One other thing to consider is that managers will reduce cost if pressured to do so. If you are expensive and seen as replaceable with minimum impact, you will be replaced. It is rare that loyalty (reverse to what you discussed) is given in that situation.

Re:Bargain

[black6host]

I once worked at a company and received a job offer with considerably higher pay. I put in my notice, and they offered to match it. Same story so far, however, there were no repercussions or bad feelings. Note: I didn't ask them to counter the offer, I simply said that the opportunity was too good to pass up and that I had to leave. The value of "something" is what people are willing to pay for it. In my opinion, this includes my skill set as well.

I've managed many developers and my advice to them was that if they received a better offer they should go for it. I was more concerned for them, personally, than the company I worked for. Upper management controlled pay rates but they did not control my concern and care for those that worked for/with me. Of course, this was good for morale and benefited the company in the long run.

That all being said, it could go either way. The outcome of how one might be treated depends on many things and is unique in most/all cases.

Re:Bargain

[tripleevenfall]

In IT, you can't generally advance within a company as well as you can by switching companies. This is because a company with a current employee has (short-sighted, self-serving) incentive to minimize the increases in total compensation, while a hiring company must attract the person they want.

It's also been studied that most people who accept counter offers to stay are still gone within 6 months to a year.

You are but a resource to your company. If they thought it would save them a few units of your favorite currency in the long run, they'd fire you yesterday. They don't feel any human attachment to you. This is all just business. You work, and at the end of the week they pay you, and then you're even. You don't owe them and they don't owe you. Do what's best for you and your family.

Re:Bargain

[InlawBiker]

If you leave everybody benefits. You gain a better commute, better pay and more opportunity. The old company's two junior programmers will benefit from new responsibility. The company will survive just fine without you believe it or not. If they really need you perhaps they can pay you a small retainer to consult for a few months.

Bottom line, don't ever hold yourself back.

Re:Bargain

[tbannist]

That's bad advice, you never take the counter-offer. Once you've admitted to considering an offer from another company you are now branded disloyal. Your boss will make sure he has someone else who can do your job ready for when you leave and if you don't leave soon enough they'll get tired of waiting and kick you out.

It's a bad risk to take because it usually means you end up with neither job. It's better to explain to the new company that your current company is at a critical juncture and find out how much leeway you have on starting date, if they can give you an extra week or two you can offer that to your current company. But make it clear that your are doing this because you are awesome. If they offer you more money to stay it's either because they're afraid to lose you right now, or because they intentionally underpaid you previously. Eitehr way it's not good.

Re:Bargain

[networkBoy]

Loyalty has paid off *very* well for me. Not in the short run mind you, but when it really counted (twice).
First time:
Stayed in a not very good job, for a very good manager, just because he asked me to. Once the project I was on was done he gave me an excellent professional reference and I went on my way. FF about 8 years and I was facing being laid off in the division of the company I moved to. He found out that I was in a group that was busy imploding as fast as it possibly could and hired me into his division, no questions asked.
Couple years later he's climbed up the ladder quite a bit (as have I) and I found myself in an environment where I knew I was going to get myself into trouble (incompatible middle manager). Went to my old boss and had an "open door" meeting with him. Laid out my issue and told him that same as last time I'd finish the project I was on, but then it looked as if it was time for me to move on again. His response was to move me under a different manager, in a different job role, with a different position, just to make me happy and keep me there.

I can't help but to think that had I not stayed around way back when, and had bailed at a critical juncture, things would be much worse right now.

I think the main thing people miss, is that if you have a good relationship with your boss and upper management, while you can not count on that for more pay (never seen someone not burned on that front), you can count on them for fixing almost everything else, making the environment, and job you do, so enjoyable that pay is not important any more.*
-nB

* obviously it is important, but there is a range of pay that applies to any job, if the job is awesome and the environment is awesome, then being at the lower end or middle of that range really isn't a big deal.

Re:Bargain

[magarity]

As an IT manager ... Being forced to make a decision is not pleasant

The headliner on the list of job duties for "manager" is "making decisions". Perhaps you need to go back to technical work?

. I would much rather have the employee come to me with a business case for giving him or her a raise

The job market indicates this person is worth more by evidence of his new offer; it's up to you as a manager to make the case that you do or do not need to pay that increased amount for this person/skillset/experience level. It's not his problem that the market views his value as increased!

Re:Bargain

[Trails]

Agreed, sorta.

If you play brinksmanship with the company, you poison the relationship.

I was in a similar situation though the other offer was lot more money but a slightly worse working condition. I approached my boss, told him about it, that I was conflicted, and pointed to some problems in the company. The company was a startup and not yet flush with cash so I told them upfront I didn't expect them to match the pay, and I just wanted to make an informed decision. I got a smallish salary bump, but some organizational issues got resolved and my boss had the ammo to say "our key guy is gonna split if we don't address this". In the end the company got better and I got most of what I wanted. More money would have been nice, but the company is a much improved place to work at, I'm happier for it, and have additional trust in my boss.

The lesson I took from this is as follows: if you trust your boss, lay it out for them, including what you want. Don't play the "do this or I'll leave" card, or you may as well leave. Give them your POV and make it a discussion, not a negotiation. This hinges on you trusting your boss and being prepared to make compromises. If you aren't prepared to make compromise (which is fine), just leave. If you don't trust your boss enough to do this, just leave.

Re:Bargain

[barc0001]

That's a very different circumstance. In your cases you weren't being loyal to a company but to a person who reciprocates, which is just good networking.

Re:Bargain

[s73v3r]

As an IT manager, I would be pissed if someone came to me with leverage.

Because you want your underlings to have no power at all at the bargaining table, right? You need all the power for yourself. How dare they try to balance that out a bit.

Re:Bargain

[s73v3r]

The headliner on the list of job duties for "manager" is "making decisions".

That just means he has to make them. It doesn't mean that they have to be pleasant to make.

Re:Bargain

[Tepic]

What was expected? Loyalty to a company is meaningless as the company is not anthropomorphic. It's always your relationships/loyalty to people that counts.

The relationships that really work are also far more than networking - they are not just business transactions.

Re:Bargain

[Quince alPillan]

This.

Also, if you DO decide to leave and the old company can't fix their problems, offer to stick around longer than normal.

Typically, you'll give two weeks notice to the old company when you change positions. Offer them a month or two months notice to make the transition for the junior developers smoother. Your new company will like that you feel loyalty to your old company (they'll see that you'll be loyal to them in return) and your old company won't have hard feelings once you explain your issues.

If the new company can't accept not being able to bring you on board right away, or your old company will be bitter at you for leaving no matter what, you probably don't want to be with them anyway.

No

[Greyfox]

Being loyal buys you being stuck at the same salary and benefits level for a decade. You'll see much better advancement if you're a whore. Back in the 90's during the tech bubble in the USA you could change contracting companies like you change your underwear (At least once ever 6 months!) and pick up a $10K a year pay raise each time. Since the tech bubble burst that's slowed down a bit here, and a lot of the incompetent ones fell out of the market. You could probably work that craze in India until the tech companies find some new outsourcing darling country (Greece and Iraq are who I'm thinking are next.)

Give generous notice and take the best job

[Pollardito]

1. Tell the new employer that you'd like to give a longer-than-usual notice to your current employer
2. Figure out between you and your new employer what length of time is reasonable
3. Tell your old employer that you're leaving, but that you're giving them this extended notice
4. Make the move

Hopefully when you're looking for the next job after this one your current employer will remember that you did them a favor, because that's who you'll likely be using as a reference and not these new people you're talking to now. And even if they forget that you were nice to them on the way out, you'll still know that you did "the right thing" (and not "the sucker thing" by staying forever just because they weren't smart enough to make people slightly redundant)

Do What You Love

[Courageous]

My advice:

Do what you love. Make sure that much is true, no matter what you do. More money isn't worth it.

Pursue new opportunities, whenever you can. Mix things up. Internally at your current place, or externally if you have to leave to get the new challenge.

Don't let yourself get idle and waste away with boredom for fear of the unknown.

Exploit new opportunities.

If the new place has a good reputation, GO. Don't take the counter offer. Just GO.

Loyalty is mostly misplaced in the modern corporate world. However, it might be worthwhile to tie up your current project, and then go hunting. A bold move would be a nationwide hunt, and not just one next door.

Some part of you wants to be comfortable, and the unknown is uncomfortable. Big changes are uncomfortable. Look that in the eye.

Many people go through their entire lives not looking themselves in the eye.

So to speak.

C//

That depends...

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Loyalty is considered to be a virtue for a reason(hominid life, up until the past few thousand years, and still in many places up to the present day has basically been a case of 'iterative prisoner's dilemma'. As it turns out, being a good guy by default, and only shafting the other guy if he has a history of shafting people works out for everyone fairly well.)

So, here's the question: if you job, by virtue of size/holding structure of company, psychological profile of leader figures, etc. is still small enough that its behavior is largely governed by "human" heuristics, loyalty can pay off. They will know who their loyal people are, value that, and your long-term payoff(especially if the product launch goes well) is likely to be good.

If the company is larger than a certain size, run by sociopaths, or otherwise no longer governed by conventional human logic, the management will still recognize "loyal" employees; but by "loyal" they mean "sucker who will stay around for more punishment, for illogical emotional reasons, until we suck him dry and throw his husk away". Bad situation...

That's the real trick. Being loyal to people is usually a pretty good idea. Being loyal to an organization or sociopath who considers you a "human resource" and your "loyalty" to be a form of primitive emotional weakness that makes you easier to exploit is always a terrible, terrible plan.

If your employer would(hypothetically), tell you to clean out your desk and instruct security not to let the door hit your worthless ass on the way out if you were to get sick and be expected to be less productive because of treatment/recovery for a period of time, then it is a fairly safe bet that you are just an "input" to them. If so, fuck-em. They'd fuck you over for money, and it looks like you've been handed the change to do unto them before they do unto you.

If, in that same hypothetical situation, they would exhibit care, understanding, concern, accomodation, etc, it is probable that they are the sort of entity that will recognize, value, and reciprocate loyalty...

Re:What would Ayn Rand do?

[mcmonkey]

Take the new job and laugh all the way to the bank. Seriously, just give them notice, and take the new job.

I agree with the idea of "WWARD?" but I don't think you understand what Ayn Rand would do.

What is the risk of that extra £7k? One thing Rand understood was TANSTAAFL. A £7k raise isn't a good move if the new company goes out of business in 6 months. Or if you're trading in a 10 minutes commute for 90 minutes in traffic.

But more money from a company closer to home with no discernible difference in company stability or advancement potential? Why is this a question? Is there some other factor?

Are you going from Puppies and Rainbows, LLC to Fire & Brimstone, Inc?

Working with friends is nice. Changing jobs doesn't mean they aren't your friends anymore. You do (or should) have a life outside of work. If they're 'work friends' you only see during the day, they'll be replaced by new work friends at the new job.

As for your friends in management, they aren't. I've known plenty of people (and been one of those people) screwed by management they previously thought of as friends. The higher up the friends were, the bigger the screwing.

On the other hand, I've never heard of someone not affected by lay-offs or other company action due to protection from friends. I've seen it happen due to good managers looking out for their employees, but never due to friends.

So seriously, more money and much shorter commute? No diggity, no doubt.

Second that

[mrops]

On my first job out of university, I was loyal, stuck to a single company for about 4 years, at which point their product was purchased by another company and the dev team dropped like a hot potato.

Few years down, I couldn't come to work on a weekend (after working 3 straight previous weekends without overtime pay), I was let go the following Thursday after I pissed off my boss after being threatened "I may not be fit for the organization", I'm glad I did, cause I wasn't.

I started contracting and haven't looked back, get more pay, get paid for overtime and believe it or not, respected more and viewed as someone who has authority in my field, though I am the same person.

There's a happiness factor too

[ThinkDifferently]

Cutting the commute alone is probably worth more than the 7k bump in salary to many people. Why? It makes them happier.

Also consider this. Your employee/employer relationship is a business transaction. You deciding to leave or stay should be purely a business decision relative to your career and life. If it will improve your career and life, go for it.

Negotiation: 101

[petes_PoV]

So you ask for a pay rise, almost certainly the response will be:
"well, we don't have the budget to do anything now, but I'll <ahem> make sure you are rewarded when you review comes round in X months time."

You're now in the worst possible situation. You've played your hand and got a commitment that almost certainly won't match the offer you have; either financially or in terms of commute, or wider opportunities in the new place. But it gets worse. You've also told your employer that you're willing to dump them - so you're now top of the list of people to sack - especially as the guy is at present training 2 more people (his replacements).

Also, the "I've got a better offer" is only a ploy you can use once. So if you do stay, you are unlikely to ever get the chance to bluff for another payrise - and you can bet that in years to come any above-average rise will get brought back into line with below-par awards in coming years.

Re:Negotiation: 101

[Lost Race]

So you ask for a pay rise, almost certainly the response will be: "well, we don't have the budget to do anything now, but I'll make sure you are rewarded when you review comes round in X months time."

You're now in the worst possible situation.

No, you're in the best possible situation. The old company has rejected your very modest request and you move with a clear conscience to the new company for a nice pay raise and no more commute.

[other nonsense snipped]

Are you even reading the same story as the rest of us? That all seems completely irrelevant.

BTW, this is not the time to ask for a pay raise, unless you just want an excuse to leave. This is the time to ask for a substantial share of the company and a big promotion. Since it's a small company, vice president seems appropriate. If the company will certainly fail without you then this is a no-brainer for the owners. Once again, all they can do is say no; you shrug and leave with a clear conscience for greener pastures.

The worst possible thing you can do is stay where you are out of "loyalty" without making it perfectly clear to coworkers, management, and shareholders what you're sacrificing for their sake, and getting a real commitment of loyalty in return from them. If they don't understand why you're staying they might see your "loyalty" as weakness (afraid to try a new job) and feel free to abuse you in the future. Their commitment is best expressed in some tangible form that's obvious to everyone.

Happiness.

[Xacid]

Happiness is what I'd measure out. Also - something not mentioned is at what stage of your career you're in.

As for happiness - is your commute time stripping you of valuable time with your family? I have a similar commute and I'm used to it - but I also have some flexibility with my hours and can work from home at times. Those little perks there make up for the commute for me.

As for salary - is that 7k going to make a huge difference to you? After taxes&benefits (based on USA rates) that'll be roughly 400/mo or translates to a little over 3.36/hr before taxes. Huge difference if you're making 100k/yr vs 30k/yr.

Another thing - does this new job open up any new doors for you? In my case - I've plateaued in regards to what I can learn and do here so that's my main motivation for wanting to look elsewhere.

For me I'd measure out my priorities. I'm in my early-mid stages of my career so I still have a fair amount of momentum to be used up. Commute isn't a huge priority. Salary I can stand to remain the same. I'm just not learning/doing much else, thus not allowing much else I can add to my resume, and that's the kicker for me.

As a small tech company owner...

[Aquitaine]

If you worked for me, I would certainly appreciate the opportunity to keep you, and I wouldn't feel bitter in the least if you came to me and said 'x company is offering more money to do the same thing and it's a better fit with my life.' Yes, if I'm a douchebag, I can agree to match or beat their offer and then quietly seek to replace you, but a company's reputation among its employees hits the toilet pretty fast the moment everybody stops trusting the boss. It's my job to make sure that nobody ever stops and asks 'would Aquitaine try to replace me just because I made him match an offer another company made?'

When I hire somebody, I definitely want the opportunity to earn their loyalty -- but I know that they, like everybody, have an obligation to themselves and to their families to do right by all of them, and that's tough when they're in competition with one another. So I don't think you 'owe' your current employer any more than the customary two weeks' notice unless you feel that they've really gone the extra mile on your behalf in the past, which some small businesses will do. Even then, I'd rather have a valuable employee realize it's time to move on than regret not having done so and turn into a rotten, depressed employee.