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Ask Slashdot: Does Being 'Loyal' Pay As a Developer?
An anonymous reader writes "As a senior developer for a small IT company based in the UK that is about to release their flagship project, I know that if I were to leave the company now, it would cause them some very big problems. I'm currently training the other two 'junior' developers, trying to bring them up to speed with our products. Unfortunately, they are still a long way from grasping the technologies used – not to mention the 'interesting' job the outsourced developers managed to make of the code. Usually, I would never have considered leaving at such a crucial time; I've been at the company for several years and consider many of my colleagues, including higher management, to be friends. However, I have been approached by another company that is much bigger, and they have offered me a pay rise of £7k to do the same job, plus their office is practically outside my front door (as opposed to my current 45 minute commute each way). This would make a massive difference to my life. That said, I can't help but feel that to leave now would be betraying my friends and colleagues. Some friends have told me that I'm just being 'soft' – however I think I'm being loyal. Any advice?"
Always a shitty situation. Sometimes I think you can grow with a company.. they get bigger, can pay you more/give you better opportunities. In most cases though, it seems that eventually you outgrow a small company. You grow faster than they do, and gradually the outside offers get more and more tempting.
This kind of thing is hard for me, because I have the same “leaving now would screw these guys” kind of thinking. You’ll be hearing from the “business is business, do what’s best for you, they’d drop you in a heartbeat if they could save a buck” crowd soon enough.
The only thing I can say is that people are usually not as critical as would seem. I’ve been amazed on several occasions at how quickly someone I would describe as “if we lose him we are screwed” is replaced. People step up and figure shit out. It is rocky, and will cause headaches, but eventually people make it work.
Take the new job and laugh all the way to the bank. Seriously, just give them notice, and take the new job.
...it's the fear of the unknown. What if it's not as good as it looks? If you're making more money and gaining an hour and a half every day it's a no brainer.
Ask yourself what they'd do if somebody came along and offered to do your job for 7 grand less.
You have to remember that your company has no loyalty to you. If their revenues drop and they have to save money, your job will be on the line!
Always do whats best for you and yours (family).
Ask for a raise, see if you get it.
Loyalty is a consideration - but first comes paying the bills. Are you happy and satisfied with where you work, and your style of living? Would the 7k increase be worth it for you, to switch, and leave them where they are? Company is about risks and resources, if they don't manage their resources and take a risk at loosing something that is important and even key to what they are doing, it is their problem, not yours.
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Change is good and the commute alone should make your life better, increase in salary or not. Also, you will get to leave behind all the crap you used to do/support and start fresh. Do it!
It sounds like a deal you shouldn't pass up. And I admire your loyalty. Your new employer will appreciate your loyalty, too, when you explain to them how you still need to help your old company out.
I am sure they would accommodate your working with your old employer until they can get on their feet once again. Perhaps telecommute some, or work at the old job a few days a week.
If they had objections to that, I would question wanting to work for them...
Loyalty means nothing in the new corporate century.
Believe me, they'll sell YOU out if/when they have the chance. Do what you think is right but make sure you don't hurt yourself.
plus their office is practically outside my front door (as opposed to my current 45 minute commute each way). This would make a massive difference to my life.
The commute alone is worth switching for. That's an (unpaid) hour and a half of your life that you get back.
Loyalty to your employer? Are you kidding? They would fire your ass in a heartbeat as soon as the numbers exhibit a downturn. Our parents' generation could rely on employers to consider loyalty a two-way street; you don't job surf and they give you all kinds of benefits including pensions, profit sharing, and so on. Now, decision makers don't think twice about firing thousands of workers when the numbers take a temporary dip, just so they can show shareholders a temporary spike in profits to get their bonuses.
Besides, do you live to work, or do you work to live?
Fuck loyalty to your employer. Take the better offer.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Either way, you should document the hell out of everything so that if you were hit by a bus tomorrow they wouldn't be similarly fucked.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
Assuming that all contractual obligations have been met, you've exchanged your work for their money. If you no longer wish to exchange your work for their money, that's no problem. Rest assured, if they no longer wanted to exchange their money for your work, they'd have no problem terminating that little arrangement.
Besides, there are ways of arranging for exclusivity. In many fields, they're codified. Retainers, tenure, whatever. If they wanted to keep you for a fixed amount of time, they'd have entered into contractual negotiations with you.
If you want to leave, leave. Just make sure you follow the legal and standard practices; two weeks notice or whatever it is across the pond.
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I've just been in a similar situation, it's a tough decision to make but you have to do what is best for you. i personally handed my notice in and i've been replaced in the short term by two contractors. whilst they shop around to find the right perm developer.
Life is too short for you to fuss over things that are secondary to you. You need to figure out what your priorities are, and to act accordingly.
If you really want that short commute to work, you can move. If you really want that higher salary, you can invite your current employer to bid against your potential employer. If your coworkers are really like family to you, then you should stay regardless. But if not...well....consequences to your real family should rank higher than consequences to your fake one.
Figure out what is real to you, and everything else is easy.
Why wouldn't you? You have no guarantees that after the two Jr Devs get up to speed, they don't get rid of you (surely they are making less). The company would also have no qualms about laying you off if they need to - it's only business.
If upper mgmt were REALLY your friends, they would want what's best for you. If they are bitter about you leaving, then they are not really your friends.
Ultimately, you need to do what's best for YOU.
The days of secure employment are long over, and management will eliminate your role if it makes financial sense to. You should stay "loyal" only insofar as that the employment is mutually beneficial and both sides get good value of the other.
Doing the Right Thing should not be preempted by making a buck.
Why not take the new job & act as a consultant on the old job?
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
Rule 1: Always do what is best for you. The company has no loyalty what so ever to you. Individual managers may have loyalty but the 'company' has none. Rule 2: Never burn your bridges. Leave on the best good will terms possible.
If they really mean something to you, offer them nice terms on a transition contract. Make sure the contract doesn't F you tho.
Does the company reward loyalty? If the shoe was on the other foot and times were tough, would they take into account your work and loyalty and try to keep you on?
Honestly, I doubt they give a second thought to your loyalty. The times when it was a good idea to be loyal to an employer are by and large long since gone. They are only looking at their bottom line, you basically have to do the same.
Company loyalty now really only comes back to bite you in the ass, there is no benefit for the employee.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
this means they're not paying you enough; therefore you should see if they'll match what the other company will offer. dunno what you could do about the 90 mins travel time though
SURELY NOT!!!!!
Loyalty never pays in the modern corporate world, the financial aspect of this decision is easy. It's a moral decision you have to make, so do whatever you feel is right.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
They would show you zero iotas of loyalty if it was in their best interest. Walk away, take the better job, and don't look back. It's just business. Don't make the mistake of confusing it for something different.
We who were living are now dying
With a little patience
This is 2011, not 1911. Loyalty is rewarded with more work, not more pay. When you reach the point where you could easily perform your boss' job, your reward will be a layoff.
The days of slowly but surely climbing the corporate ladder on one's own merit are long gone. The name of the game today is "networking" (i.e. social expertise).
I'd go into a closed-door meeting with management and say "I've been offered a position at another company making 7k more and with a much shorter commute, but I like working here. What can you offer me?" If they aren't willing to play ball, give notice. At that point, they may try to make an offer - unless it's even more than the 7k, don't accept; they'll always be looking to replace you. If they make you a reasonable offer, take it and enjoy your new old job.
Truck driver, plumber, Linux systems engineer.
If you have no doubt that your skills are worth the extra money and that 'big' company is unlikely to be in difficult financial straights the next few years, make the move. Try your best not to burn bridges and you are probably best off speaking about the quality of life issues rather than the money if pressed by your current employer who may well match or do some other nice thing for you. But this sounds like it is as much about money as it is location, and money will not offset 1.5 to 2 hours a day commuting. Loyalty is a very nebulous thing now a days.
I was going to side with you on the loyalty argument, until I read that your employer outsources (some of) their programming. What does that say about their commitment to loyalty? On the one hand, it helps to maintain a good network of industry contacts for the long-term good of your career. On the other hand, it *is* possible to maintain a good relationship with your old co-workers, while simultaneously "looking out for number one".
Is you leaving going to be *difficult*, or will it break their entire business? That is, you can rest easy if you cause a bit of inconvenience, but just try not to screw them too badly: ask your new employer if you can have a couple of weeks before you officially start; or a "transition period" where you can remain on-call (e.g. a half-day a week when needed) to the old team.
----
Not to be confused with Col.
This looks like the typical situation of company A trying to fuck over company B, just when company B is about to release a product. Company A won't be wanting to help you out, but simply get you away from company B. They probably won't treat you any better, if not worse.
I'd stay until the project is complete - explain that to company B. If they don't appreciate that, then they don't really want you that badly.
Seen this happen before to other people, and happen to myself. In the long term, having worked on a project from start to finish counts more than leaving half-way through. Who knows, it might be get bought out by a large company.
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Tell your current company about the offer, and see if you get a counter-offer.
(and if they don't counter, you know how you're valued. Leave.)
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I've seen many people who seemed extremely critical leave. Once we had someone leave who convinced a couple of others to jump as well. Others fill in the gap (amazing how quickly some people learn when they *really* need to), new talent is hired. Take the new job, enjoy the 7.5 hours a week of more time, invest the money and meet your old pals at the pub.
I'll just cite the Quote of the day, at the bottom of this page:
"In any formula, constants (especially those obtained from handbooks) are to be treated as variables."
Being loyal buys you being stuck at the same salary and benefits level for a decade. You'll see much better advancement if you're a whore. Back in the 90's during the tech bubble in the USA you could change contracting companies like you change your underwear (At least once ever 6 months!) and pick up a $10K a year pay raise each time. Since the tech bubble burst that's slowed down a bit here, and a lot of the incompetent ones fell out of the market. You could probably work that craze in India until the tech companies find some new outsourcing darling country (Greece and Iraq are who I'm thinking are next.)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
However, I have been approached by another company that is much bigger, and they have offered me a pay rise of £7k to do the same job, plus their office is practically outside my front door (as opposed to my current 45 minute commute each way). This would make a massive difference to my life .
Those last two words are the important bit. You need to decide what is important in YOUR life. Quality of life is very important. Rejecting anyone is a painful experience and that includes companies you work for.
If you are going to burn bridges, think hard about whether it is worth it but then make your decision and don't look back. There are no guarantees for you or from either company. If the new job seems like a secure gig and it will improve your quality of life I'd consider it. Look VERY carefully at the corporate culture and the people you'll be working with. That is usually what makes or breaks a job.
Some friends have told me that I'm just being 'soft' – however I think I'm being loyal. Any advice?"
You are being soft though that might not be a bad thing. It means you are probably a considerate and decent person. Don't let that stop you from doing what is best for you though.
Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get.
So you're loyal to your company. Great. How loyal are they to you?
Do they pay you at or above what you could make elsewhere?
Do they do their best to schedule things so that you're not constantly working death-march overtime?
Do they respect you and your contributions?
Do they lay people off only when they absolutely have to, or whenever doing so could goose their quarterly numbers?
Loyalty is great. Loyalty is undervalued. But loyalty has to be earned, and while you've told us you're loyal to your company you haven't given us any reasons why, so we can't judge whether your loyalty is misplaced or not. The one reason you gave is that you consider some of your current managers to be friends, and that's great, but I can tell you from experience that just because a manager is your friend doesn't necessarily mean that he won't lay your ass off in a hot minute if he thinks he can benefit by doing so. There are lots of people who put the "business" part of "business friendships" first and foremost.
If this company has earned your loyalty -- if they've gone above and beyond to treat you with the respect you deserve -- then by all means return that loyalty. If it's just a place you've worked for a few years, though, then in the long run you'll do better to look out for number one and save your loyalty for people who deserve it.
Read my blog.
Even a crap job is tolerable if the people are decent and the money is fair. Loyalty is due where loyalty is repaid. Granted, employment contracts and Non-Compete clauses always limit and grate, but is where you are now giving/getting you what you want? Will the green grass over the fence do better for you in the long run? Do you accept the burdens of those changes in the short run?
It can be pretty cheesy to attempt to "measure" your friendship, much less deliberately test it, but if you feel you're part of something larger (and a good part at that), then you don't even need to ask the question.
It's the old 4-panel plan problem. Take a sheet of paper, fold it in four, and mark them 6, 12, 5, 100. Then list things you want to do in the next 6 weeks, 12 months, 5 years, and 100 years. Review it carefully. The 6/12/5 items should lead somehow to the 100 year items. Climb a mountain? Sure! Learn mountain climbing? Yeah, I can do that in 5 years easy. Ah -- get fit first. Yep, can start that this year. Six weeks to find a good trainer -- can do!
So -- where are you going, and and is where you are (or wish you were) part of getting there?
Pacifist paratroopers yell, "Ghandi!" when they jump.
The real solution is to search slashdot for the last 5k times that this question has been asked. Some of the answers are really good.
*sigh*
Does Being 'Loyal' Pay As a Developer?
No
1. Tell the new employer that you'd like to give a longer-than-usual notice to your current employer
2. Figure out between you and your new employer what length of time is reasonable
3. Tell your old employer that you're leaving, but that you're giving them this extended notice
4. Make the move
Hopefully when you're looking for the next job after this one your current employer will remember that you did them a favor, because that's who you'll likely be using as a reference and not these new people you're talking to now. And even if they forget that you were nice to them on the way out, you'll still know that you did "the right thing" (and not "the sucker thing" by staying forever just because they weren't smart enough to make people slightly redundant)
You have to ask yourself: is the company currently worth being loyal to?
All too often, people seem to think that loyalty is, in and of itself, something you should strive for. It's not. Being mindlessly loyal is just plain dumb; the things you choose to be loyal to should, in some way, be worthy of that loyalty.
Your current company doesn't seem like it really cares about being worthy of your loyalty. I'm sure their flagship product was shipped out overseas against your recommendation, if they even bothered to ask (and that's entirely ignoring the incredibad business decision of outsourcing a core product), which just indicates that they don't really care.
Also, if another company is willing to try and snipe you off with a raise, you're probably worth significantly more than what either of them are offering. I mean, just ask yourself - if I'm worth my salary + 7k (which is what another company is willing to pay for me right now), why hasn't my current company given me that raise? Because they're taking advantage of your "loyalty".
Finally, the fact that they've given you two junior devs to train up at this juncture kinda sounds like they've decided that you're too much of a senior dev, and they'd prefer to pay two junior salaries instead of one senior salary. This is, of course, conjecture, but this sort of behavior is not at all unknown in business.
So yeah, it really seems like there's no reason to be loyal to the company, even though there may be people in the company who are worthwhile. What has the company done recently to be worthy of your loyalty? Keep in mind that your current salary is in exchange for your work, if they want your loyalty they have to do more.
The part that concerns me is the part about the "interesting" code from outsourcing. Having spent too much time with "interesting" code I would suggest that if you are not in a position where you can ensure that it is made less interesting then your days are already numbered and it's time to vote with your feet.
My advice:
Do what you love. Make sure that much is true, no matter what you do. More money isn't worth it.
Pursue new opportunities, whenever you can. Mix things up. Internally at your current place, or externally if you have to leave to get the new challenge.
Don't let yourself get idle and waste away with boredom for fear of the unknown.
Exploit new opportunities.
If the new place has a good reputation, GO. Don't take the counter offer. Just GO.
Loyalty is mostly misplaced in the modern corporate world. However, it might be worthwhile to tie up your current project, and then go hunting. A bold move would be a nationwide hunt, and not just one next door.
Some part of you wants to be comfortable, and the unknown is uncomfortable. Big changes are uncomfortable. Look that in the eye.
Many people go through their entire lives not looking themselves in the eye.
So to speak.
C//
If your company could hire someone else equally qualified, experienced and competent to do your work for £7k less, would they have any qualms firing you? What about £15k? Outsource it to India for 15% of the cost?
You are in a purely transactional relationship. You provide knowledge and hard work, and you get paid in money, prestige and satisfaction. That's it. It's your company, not your parent or sibling or friend or spouse - you 'owe' it no loyalty beyond that transactional relationship (and even personal relationships break down when they don't work out....). You wouldn't think twice about switching if someone opened up a new grocery store that was closer to your home and offered the same products for a lower price. Why is this different?
Do yourself a favour, mate. Go get the £7k + 7.5 hours of your life (almost a full work day on its own!) per week back. Good luck!
Karma fed to this user will be promptly burnt. Be warned; be wary.
Flee! Flee while you still can!
Seriously, though, you should talk to them (your current employer). Explain the situation, and give them the chance to make it worth your while to stay. See if they want you badly enough to pay for it. The results, either way, may surprise you and make your choice very much more clear.
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
But that said, it might mean something to you. If you feel better about yourself remaining where you are than you would leaving your current employer high and dry in exchange for a higher salary, then that peace of mind is certainly of great value, and the guilt you may feel at your new job if you were to leave your current one could even adversely affect your capabilities.
It is, of course, ultimately up to you.... How do *YOU* feel about leaving your current job? Would you regret leaving if it turned out that your former employer had difficulties after your absence? Is that even likely? If it were to happen, weigh its probability against how much you would likely regret not taking the new job? If you can answer these questions for yourself, you will have arrived at the most sensible course of action that you can take with the knowledge that you have now.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I can only speak about the US. Generally, companies work at retaining people through various means:
1. Severance Package: You won't get a severance package at your new job until you are vested, in the US at least. That means getting through you probationary period. Severance packages are always much better than our pitiful US unemployment insurance, which they are always making more humiliating to access and more difficult to collect. How much are you giving up to change jobs?
2. Perks: These can be things as simple as having a relaxed work environment, versus being in a pressure cooker. You seem happy where you are, will the new job burn you out in a few months?
3. Communication: Does the company surprise you with bad news, or does it keep you in the loop?
A 7k raise doesn't mean much if they get rid of you in a couple of months.
"MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
A friend once told me that "You have to be in it for yourself.".
If you decided to stay on, would this crucial time stop soon? Or as I suspect, go on forever. This situation actually is so close to what a couple of guys here are going through, I had to ask around if it was one of us who submitted it.
Guess it's time to jump ship.
When your immediate usefulness is perceived to have ended, your "friends" would grind you up and sell you as dog food for a few extra pounds if they thought they could get a way with it.
Short answer? Don't be an idiot.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Have you gotten everything you need from this job, professionally, financially, and personally? Are you satisfied this move is the best choice for you to grow professionally?
If you want this other position, give your current employer proper notice, and work with them to make the transition as smooth as possible. You can even discuss the possibility of being available as a consultant for a while if they need.
On the other hand, you might look over the offer and decide the trade-offs aren't worth it. Sometimes, the increased money is accompanied by increased stress...longer commutes, longer hours, more demands on your personal life (e.g., being on call 24/7). An interesting and rewarding job that pays less might be the better option then.
Chances are, however, you're intrigued by a new challenge, a new beginning, and better pay. Why not take the leap?
Remember, in the end, you are replaceable. It's part of business. People get sick, hit by buses...or better offers. Leave gracefully, don't burn any bridges, and you can continue to stay friends with those co-workers with whom you are close.
Best wishes on your decision. In this economy, it's rare to have such a choice to make!
It's still possible to be loyal and yet move on. It may be that the new company would accept you working a longer notice period at your current employer (for example, if you're on 4 weeks ask if they'd wait 6 or even 8 for you)? That should be sufficient to ensure that the company can bring someone else in of a similar skill level to yourself, that the product can be handed over with minimal disruption, and you leave things in a stable situation.
It's your career, after all. Sometimes you do have to be selfish, otherwise you will never leave.
You think that your management is inside your circle of friends, but they would do anything for money. Maybe they wouldn't kill your grandmother, not sure. In business, this is called "making the hard decisions." You have to do it to manage people. In business, this is called "playing with the big boys."
You must quit your job now, because you have an unhealthy relationship with your coworkers and bosses. You will be badly hurt if they ever have to let you go, and it will take a long time to recover from it at a time when you will have to search for a job.
What you can do is this.
Take the new job, but tell your current employer for a limited time, you'll support them after hours for up to an hour a day (the hour you're currently losing to commuting). Overall, no net loss to your life, and in the end you gain an hour you didn't have before.
Losing the commute is very important. Not only do you get the hour of your life back, even if the new job had the same pay you're effectively gaining the money you'd have to spend on fuel and your car. Fuel prices are only set to go up. You might even be able to sell your car (which is a colossal expense), or if you're a 2 car family, you may be able to go down to a 1 car family.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
In my experience as a developer who has managed a department, trained "jr' developers on our product(s), and was "loyal to the end", I can tell you that you need to do what is best for you, now and down the road.
I put my time (too many hours), heart and soul into my job(s), and was close with upper management, etc.
What I found is: In the end, the company will do what it needs to, to survive/thrive at [almost] any expense -- including you and your job.
What you must do is find what is the best scenario for you to survive/thrive, and mostly enjoy going to work each day. Of course you want to balance your decision with factors such as burning bridges, making sure your new position has long-term stability, etc.
I wish you the best in your decision. I can only offer that you do what's best for you, and don't look back.
You will be on the chopping block the moment circumstances necessitate it.
Loyalty is considered to be a virtue for a reason(hominid life, up until the past few thousand years, and still in many places up to the present day has basically been a case of 'iterative prisoner's dilemma'. As it turns out, being a good guy by default, and only shafting the other guy if he has a history of shafting people works out for everyone fairly well.)
So, here's the question: if you job, by virtue of size/holding structure of company, psychological profile of leader figures, etc. is still small enough that its behavior is largely governed by "human" heuristics, loyalty can pay off. They will know who their loyal people are, value that, and your long-term payoff(especially if the product launch goes well) is likely to be good.
If the company is larger than a certain size, run by sociopaths, or otherwise no longer governed by conventional human logic, the management will still recognize "loyal" employees; but by "loyal" they mean "sucker who will stay around for more punishment, for illogical emotional reasons, until we suck him dry and throw his husk away". Bad situation...
That's the real trick. Being loyal to people is usually a pretty good idea. Being loyal to an organization or sociopath who considers you a "human resource" and your "loyalty" to be a form of primitive emotional weakness that makes you easier to exploit is always a terrible, terrible plan.
If your employer would(hypothetically), tell you to clean out your desk and instruct security not to let the door hit your worthless ass on the way out if you were to get sick and be expected to be less productive because of treatment/recovery for a period of time, then it is a fairly safe bet that you are just an "input" to them. If so, fuck-em. They'd fuck you over for money, and it looks like you've been handed the change to do unto them before they do unto you.
If, in that same hypothetical situation, they would exhibit care, understanding, concern, accomodation, etc, it is probable that they are the sort of entity that will recognize, value, and reciprocate loyalty...
I always find that the best way to give advice is to repeat back what people say. You said: "This would make a massive difference to my life." Is that true? If so, then the decision is obvious. In that vein, I would interpret your loyalty question as an emotional one: you are attached to where you work, you have put a lot of time and effort into your work. You are very proud of what you have accomplished and what you know. Those are all good things, but going back to the massive difference in your life, it sounds like it is time to move on. That's a good thing.
That's some good stuff from an AC.
Part of it comes down to whether you will enjoy what is offered in the "new" job. If you like where you area and are just going for the money, it's a bad move.
Alternately, if the outsourced code is a bad as you say it is, you could be in for a lot of uncomp'd overtime fixing problems and keeping that new product from crashing and burning with your employer's clients. Consider what your job might be like in a year when comparing it to what you are considering.
And, to add to an earlier post - consider consulting. If they truly love you, and you value the project but have two guys who can start to fill your shoes, they'll be happy to have an emergency outlet. Plus, if you keep them running, they shouldn't harbor ill will.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I was in a similar situation. An opportunity came up that I couldn't ignore, but leaving my current company would have left them in a real bind. What did I do?
I gave them 1 months notice. I told the new company that that's the only way I would take the job and that I would probably do the same for them down the road. I actually think they were impressed by that. During that month I attended some meetings at the new company, did some "homework" and was already getting some stuff done for them before my official start date.
My old company asked if I'd mind doing some work for them now and then while they got up to speed on the things I was doing. I said as long it was something fairly quick, I'd be willing to do it.
Did I mention that this was during the dot-com bubble? Fast forward 5 months and my flashy new company had burned through all it's money. There was a buyer and what was supposedly a "done deal" fell apart at the last minute. Suddenly I was without a job. The collapse was one of the top stories in the business section of the local paper.
The next morning I get a call from my old boss: "I heard you might be looking for work."
Got a nice raise and have been there ever since. Don't burn bridges if you can avoid it.
Talk to your current employers, let them know the score.
If you're happy where you are, then you may just be taking a leap to somewhere more stifling (larger companies have a different feel to startups when you work there). That's an 'if' though, it may work better for you.
If they get shirty about the info, then you can always leave to the new job (no risk to you). If they really value you (and can afford it), maybe they'll match or exceed the new offer you have.
That's the thing with conversations, you rarely know how they'll end before you start them. You'll learn a lot by talking to your current employers, that'll direct your actions once you know the results.
I'm an employer. I've invested a huge amount of time and money in my people. Times are tough, so I'm not going around offering $10k raises indiscriminately. However, they are key people who I would pay that much to keep, and there would be bad blood if those people would have stayed after a round of negotiation but decided not to give me an opportunity to consider the situation.
Us bosses are not all unreasonable. Many of us have had to make tough decisions leaving one place for a better opportunity. I've actually had this conversation with each of my employees. I tell them: "if you are ever unhappy or you start feeling like the grass is greener somewhere else, let's talk about it. If the difference between keeping you and losing you is a few dollars or benefits, I want to work with you to find something that works for both of us."
Freakonomics Radio had a relevant podcast about this recently "The upside of Quitting".
http://freakonomicsradio.com/the-upside-of-quitting.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+freakonomicsradio+%28Freakonomics+Radio%29
But the longer you wait,the harder it'll be for you to quit, so if you're thinking of maybe quitting later, you should assume that you don't want to quit your job period.
The first person/thing you should be loyal too is yourself. Then prioritize after that. This is how any company works especially these days.
Seriously, take it. You aren't as important to your current employer as you think you are.
Oh, they will cajole and complain. But you will kick yourself for the years to come because you will wonder what would've happened if you had taken the job.
And, if you say, the management are really your friends, they'll understand eventually. Good management understands the value of keeping even leaving people happy - because after all, the employees might want to come back some day.
Take the new job, but promise to consult back to the old company (assuming it's ok with the next company). There was a period of 4 months, I went back to my old company as an independent consultant part time until the project was done.
There's also this. It's your current company's own fault for putting all of their eggs into one basket, you. They should know better, and they should have a contingency plan if you should leave, die or otherwise fail to come to work. That's their problem. To put all of that burden onto you is unfair and stupid on their part.
I just went though a strikingly similar situation. The old company provided a counter offer that was higher than the new company's offer when I put in my notice. My decision to make the move boiled down to weighing the less obvious options...commute has turned out to be way more valuable than I had thought. I have better growth potential and a better job in general at the new place, but I really underestimated how lousy commuting was until mine became sub-five minutes. Don't disregard your time.
0 = 1 + e^(Alt something)
A lot of people here seem to be assuming your current employer is the typical faceless massive corp that treats its employees as disposable in spite of your characterization of them as small enough that you are on friendly terms with senior management.
That sounds to me like a company where there is actually some sense of family atmosphere, and therefore worthy of a little consideration from you. I would talk to them and explain your dilemma. If you think you'll be better off with the new position, take it. But offer to assist with the current project to the best of your ability while starting the new job, at the very least taking phone calls to answer questions. Keeping that bridge intact instead of burning it at worst will cost you some personal hours in the next couple months, but could have much larger benefits in the future.
A really important factor is the people you're working with. A healthy work/social environment where you'll spend half your waking day, you know? It's not everything about money, for fuck's sake!
Like parent says, document the hell out of everything so that they have the information they will need. After that, you're not only getting a 7K raise, but you're saving an hour and a half of your time every day, not to mention the cost of petrol? That's time you could spend with family, friends, and loved ones, taking up a hobby, or just relaxing, and that's petrol money you're saving on transit costs in addition to your raise.
Your current job sounds like it's been good to you, and there's no harm in acknowledging that. However, you're not just a cog in their company machine, you're a person with your own needs and goals. If someone else has made an offer that fits those better, the only moral obligation you have is to make the transition for your current employer as easy as reasonably possible.
The It business is small, so try to avoid burning bridges. Leave a good impression behind.
In your case I would take the new job, but discuss with your new employer that you will have slow start (4 days a week for 3 months) and offer your old employer to act for those 3 months as a consultant for one day per week. Then make the damn sure your spend the rest of your time in getting your replacements up to speed.
When working with reasonable people a reasonable solution can be found.
As to asking your current employer for a raise, I doubt that will help much and you won't get the improved quality of life with the short commute to work.
Well I haven't left my current employer but I recently moved a Heck of a lot closer and if you have a family or any kind of life outside of work that's important to you, do it. 1.5 hours a day is about what i saved and it adds up a ton! My life outside of work is so much better now, and that's the reason we should be working right?
Not all life is cyber. Extra Income
Assuming most of /. readers are from the US, it seems that working for something else than money as a primary reason is a typical European concept...
(Example: http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2465088&cid=37638874 is something about the actual work and has an email address in .co.uk)
Video of some good progressive thrash music
To be honest, this type of question is best for people who already experience this dilemma. People who nonchalant say just to move don't understand the amount of time and relationship you built with the company and the people within the company. Since I don't have any attachments to your situation or to people's issues around here, it's easier to say just go for it since there doesn't seem to be any downside to moving to the new company.
Companies expect (or demand) it from their employees, but are incapable of showing any, themselves. It's not that companies are evil, it's just that an inanimate object or entity does not have feelings. If you ever anthropomorphise one you're making a mistake. They can only ever act for their own good - which may coincide with benefits for employees, but that's just a lucky side-effect.
While you can get, and sometimes do get decision-making employees who act for the benefit of their subordinates that's rarely done with the company's sanction. If that benevolence leads to improved employee performance, then that's nice for all concerned but you can't rely on the next guy in the job (as nice guys rarely last long) having the same enlightened attitude.
I'd say: get out now, while the offer still stands. You have no idea whether this new product will succeed or bomb and you can't owe you existing company anything (see anthropomorphising it, above). So go for the larger, more secure and more convenient option. If you still feel a pull towards your existing company, you could always moonlight for them!
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Been there, done that. The company you're at right now would certainly not think twice about laying you off if they hit financial difficulty. Business is business and you are in a business agreement with current said company. If they have not put the effort or money into a parallel knowledge store for their flagship product, that is really irresponsible planning on their part. Where would their product be if you met your demise on that 45min commute one morning?
I would go for the new job. Ask future employer if a 3-week or 4-week notice is appropriate so you can get everyone up-to-speed at old job. Offer to be telephone/weekend support as needed for old company at pre-established rate.
Your "friends" will be supportive and understand if they really are friends.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
I wasn't fired. I didn't quit. It was a mutual agreement for me to leave, with severance.
Since 1995 I had worked for the company or it's parent except for a 10 month break where I worked for another company.
3 years ago the CIO was replaced, and he brought in all new IT management. People that didn't know anyone. That was the point where loyalty ended, but I didn't realize this until a couple of weeks ago when I left.
The offer was to work all of the time, Sundays included, or to leave the company. I left.
I took a job at the place the former CIO works. Might even get a pay raise.
Loyalty is about people, not the company. Working with people you know, and consider friends, is what is important.
If you are really essential to your employer, they should make you a partner in the business. What have your bonuses, raises, and profit sharing looked like for the last few years? My guess is, if 7K makes a difference to you, then your employer does not value as highly as you (rightly or wrongly) value yourself.
In which case, they'll get by without you. Once you have an offer in hand, you can negotiate with both employers on how much time you'll need for a responsible transition -- say a couple of months. That is loyalty. Your current employer will appreciate you taking time to responsibly hand over your duties, and your future employer should be impressed that you're the kind of person who ties up loose ends.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Think in terms of real tangible things like:
Contract - your obligation to your current employer is spelled out in your contract already. How much notice do you need to give? If they needed longer notice when you leave, they would have added it in the contract already (and bound themselves to give you the same notice period, usually means extra $$, when they fire you). So why worry about them not having enough time when they don't bother to bound themselves to pay more if they fire you?
Commute - "practically next door" usually still mean a few minutes of commute. While you still save over an hour each day in your new job, but OTOH would you be required to stay late or longer because your home is practically just next door?
Pay - is it 7K more per month? (no brainer, go to the next point) Or 7K more per year? If the latter, then the difference may not be that big percentage wise, unless you are absolutely clear about the new environment, it may not be enough to cover the risk. You may do better negotiating a raise in your current job.
Environment - how much do you know about your new employer or working environment? It is always better to know more. Ask around. Are they slave drivers? Do they have a reputation for behaving honorably/honestly? How long have they been in business? Are their finance sound? etc etc.
Oliver.
Other people being unloyal or just generally crappy does not give you the right to do so.
If you think that the company deserves loyalty, and you are the only one who can know this because this is a specific case, then you have to give that consideration and no one can really help you with the question because we do not work at this company and we do not necessarily have the same appreciation of lack there of of moral behaviour as you do.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Here's what I've done historically. Take the new job but give your employer the option to contact you for issues that they can't figure out. Determine an hourly rate and be a consultant. Put time expectations on it (i.e. "I'll spend no more than 3 hours on an average week for the next 3 months"). Tell the new employer about your situation (in case there are conflict of interest issues). By doing this, you're giving your current employer a way to still have access to any unique knowledge that you have while still doing what's right for you. You get a reputation for being a good guy with the current employer (and likely the new since you're showing the behavior that you'll exhibit when you leave them) and you get the better job. Win-win.
Do you love the work that you do? Are you excited to make that 45 minute commute to work? Do you really enjoy working at the company you're with? Could you see yourself as a stake holder or principal whose excited to make this product work and work well?
Do you think that you'd feel these types of feelings at the company you've been offered a position at?
If you don't like what you're doing or where you're doing it, then you're doing a disservice to the company whose paying you now. It's important not only to be in the right seat on the bus, but also to be on the right bus. You should enjoy the ride, and if you're not, then you're probably going the wrong direction.
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
The question is do they have loyalty to you? There are companies that do. Some companies are very big on employee retention. Small businesses are often this way, some larger companies are too. The university I work for is quite loyal. No, that doesn't mean they'll keep every person forever and ever no matter what, but they really do seek to retain people when possible, and you find plenty of people who have things like 30, 40, 50 years of service.
So that is the question to think about: How loyal is the company to its employees, and particularly to you? If they are loyal, then some loyalty in return can be a good thing. Something to be said for a company that views you as more than an expendable asset. Maybe they don't pay quite as much when things are red hot, but maybe they also keep you when things are not doing so well.
So consider that question, and then decide how loyal to be. You don't "owe" them any loyalty, however it may be in your best interest to be loyal and that is what to think about.
After you've considered that, also consider work environment, location, and that kind of thing. Don't just run around chasing a higher salary. A woman I know perpetually does that and it seems she's less happy in each job she gets. The money is better, but the environment is worse.
Now in your case you mentioned commute as a reason to switch and that is real valid. I like where I work because I can bike instead of drive. Consider other factors too though, like how the work environment seems. There's something to be said for working with friends.
I can't tell you which way to go, since I don't (and can't) know all the details. Just weigh everything, non-economic considerations as well. Keep the question of their loyalty to you in mind.
However ultimately understand that you owe your company nothing other than the work you have provided. If you decide the advantage is to move, then move.
The key thing to remember is that you are really not that important. Your job may be important and vital to the company but you personally are not and can be replaced. When you leave there may be some transition problems but nothing impossible.
You need to think of yourself as your own company. and You, Inc. has only the resources to have one customer at a time, if your services include full time hours of service.
So if you found a new customer who is willing to pay more for your services, and you feel the risk of swapping customers is worth it, then change.
If you were that valuable to the company you left then the next valuable employee they get they may put more time to make sure they are being compensated competitively.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
How big is the 'Circle' in your related industry? Will your skills specialize you to the point that your circle shrinks? How well does this circle communicate?
Reputations encompass many more things than just technical abilities... perhaps the fact there is any equivocation on your part is one of the qualities that your prospective employer desires to hire you?
Tell your current employer that you are planing on leaving, what your goals are before your departure, and what you will do to achieve the goals.
Sudden departures and unexplained, erratic career moves are for PUSSIES. PROFESSIONALS move up because they are good at what they do, and can tell other people about it from time to time.
It seems that the success or failure of the company is hinging on your loyalty. If that's really true you should expect some kind of equity stake if you stay. If your compensation is just conventional hourly and benefits you have to take the better opportunity.
or not telling yourself ?
There must be something more. Your old company would get by without you, I'm sure they could phone you for help on occasions if they really got into a bind. This is an opportunity for the junior developers to perhaps progress a little to fill your shoes. After all there is no greater motivator that actually being responsible for something. There must be some other factor that gives you pause, something that it not as nebulous as "loyalty". Are you worried about spilling details to a competitor ?
Nullius in verba
But I wouldn't be loyal to the company. Ask yourself if the company had some kind of financial problem, would it have the same kind of consideration towards you? Or if they could hire a better developer than you for half your wages, would they do it? Your friends, if they are truly so, will still be friends. Now, money isn't everything and perhaps the environment in the new job is worse. But that aside, I'd never turn out a better job out of loyalty. No company would be as loyal to their employees (at least I haven't seen one yet).
Where is that guy who'd die defending what I had to say when I need him?
It's not always that way. I work in contracting for the US government. Moving from company A to company B is like changing from riding the bus to riding the train. It just doesn't matter who you work for, because your customer is the same.
So, I guess it depends. Is company B promising you a career path, future training, a career? Or is just a cold call offer for a job and no other details? Ask more questions.
I have known lots of loyal employers -- especially when you are talking about a small shop, rather than a big firm. Not everyone is a jackass.
Moreover, loyalty cuts both ways - if (as a group) we don't give it, we cannot ask for it.
That said, loyalty is a finite quantity. This is a firm with several employees and "management" so an extra 10k for one person should be within their grasp (or perhaps some sort of equity stake / profit sharing if cash flow is short before the launch) -- and if it really would break them, now is probably a good time to bail.
Consequently, you should a) figure out what it would take to make you happy about staying and then b) be open with your current employer. Explain that you don't want to leave -- especially now -- but that you owe it to yourself (and your family, if that is an issue) to take this offer seriously, and that you are giving them a chance to respond. If they say no, or accuse you of holding them to ransom, or are otherwise obnoxious then you can leave in good conscience.
This is the most mercenary discussion I've seen on Slashdot, ever.
If your employer isn't loyal to you (within reason) then you don't want to be there. Most of the organizations I have worked for - including some very big ones - actually do try to avoid laying people off in a downturn, at least skilled white-collar workers. In a knowledge industry if you burn your workers every knows and it gets tougher to hire in the future.
You already know whats right for you - the other job. That means you need to leave - but doesn't mean leaving the current company (& coworkers!) in the lurch. Ask the new employer if they will give you a couple of months before you start; if so, get an offer letter with those terms. Seriously - I just hired a programmer and a project manager on these terms (2 months and 3 months respectively). They needed the time to close out projects, train new hires etc. I was impressed that they were loyal to their old employer - and presume they will leave me one day with the same grace and style. Their old employers (who couldn't match my offer) were pleased that they were willing to stay that long, and will in the future give them glowing recommendations - and might hire them back. Co-workers don't feel shafted etc. Did I want them sooner? Of course - but they were the right people and I'm willing to wait.
Now, your current employer might tell you to stuff it, and to clear out your desk. Or that they will hire someone and they only want 2 weeks and then your out. Fine - you have been loyal and done your part, and the new employer presumably will take you sooner.
Loyalty means doing your best in a hard situation, not picking between 2 weeks notice and staying forever.
+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
If in your current position you consider higher management friends, you shouldn't be shy about being honest with them. Tell them your situation. If you have a real relationship with them, they will appreciate the honesty and the opportunity to try to do right by you and keep you for the long haul, rather than have you stick around for a short time out of 'loyalty' and feel bitter.
Maybe they can offer to let you telecommute once or twice a week to save on your commute. Maybe they can give you a raise. Maybe they can't do anything, and will just wish you well. You'll never know if you don't give them the chance.
The longer answer is:
1. You state that even higher management are your friends. Just how good? Visit each other on weekends? Hang out in bars? Or just "treat you in a friendly manner in the office"?
1.a. If it's the last, they are not true friends and you shouldn't give this "friendship" any weight whatsoever.
1.b. If they really are good friends, tell them about the offer. A 7k raise and 40 minutes shorter commute are not trivial to pass up. If they care about you, they might actually advise you to take it, even if it hurts them temporarily.
2. A 7k rise is a lot. If another company is willing to pay you such a hefty raise, you've been working for many years now at wages below what you could/should have been making. Why is the difference so large?
2.a. If it's because you've passed up opportunities to get a raise, either by leaving or declining a promotion at your current company, you are of course to blame.
2.b. If however as I suspect you simply haven't received (proper) pay raises at your current company for several years, thus putting you behind the curve, they have in effect been screwing you over. And make no mistakes, companies know *exactly* how much the going rate is for each programmer grade and seniority. So if they have been knowingly screwing you out of proper wages for several years, they are certainly no friends of yours.
I learn from all my mistakes, I intend to be a genius at the end of my life.
On my first job out of university, I was loyal, stuck to a single company for about 4 years, at which point their product was purchased by another company and the dev team dropped like a hot potato.
Few years down, I couldn't come to work on a weekend (after working 3 straight previous weekends without overtime pay), I was let go the following Thursday after I pissed off my boss after being threatened "I may not be fit for the organization", I'm glad I did, cause I wasn't.
I started contracting and haven't looked back, get more pay, get paid for overtime and believe it or not, respected more and viewed as someone who has authority in my field, though I am the same person.
Cutting the commute alone is probably worth more than the 7k bump in salary to many people. Why? It makes them happier.
Also consider this. Your employee/employer relationship is a business transaction. You deciding to leave or stay should be purely a business decision relative to your career and life. If it will improve your career and life, go for it.
Let me reframe the question. Take loyalty out of the question, for a moment, ask yourself if the extra money is worth no longer working with people you really like. I've worked for people who shouldn't be managing anyone, much less IT people. I've worked in situations where developers were poorly regarded and treated badly. Not having to put up with crap like that is worth an offset in pay. How much of an offset is, of course, up to you. HTH. Heck- this is Slashdot. Hope this gets noticed. :)
"well, we don't have the budget to do anything now, but I'll <ahem> make sure you are rewarded when you review comes round in X months time."
You're now in the worst possible situation. You've played your hand and got a commitment that almost certainly won't match the offer you have; either financially or in terms of commute, or wider opportunities in the new place. But it gets worse. You've also told your employer that you're willing to dump them - so you're now top of the list of people to sack - especially as the guy is at present training 2 more people (his replacements).
Also, the "I've got a better offer" is only a ploy you can use once. So if you do stay, you are unlikely to ever get the chance to bluff for another payrise - and you can bet that in years to come any above-average rise will get brought back into line with below-par awards in coming years.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Would the company lay you off to save $1? Yes. If you you said no, you are kidding yourself. Do what is best for you and your family.
Unfortunately, they are still a long way from grasping the technologies used – not to mention the 'interesting' job the outsourced developers managed to make of the code.
Let me get this straight: you're working for someone who is about to release a flagship project, but the code is a mess and you've got 2 members of staff and the only person who really knows about it is you.
Now I'll explain what your real situation is: you're filling in for your management being not very good. Those guys aren't putting in a real investment, and through your efforts you're keeping them going.
So, the question to you is this: what are you getting for being a crucial part of their company? You see, I've seen this dozens of times... people who work 8am to 7pm every day because the work needs doing without telling the management to go screw themselves when the management refuse to get more staff in. People who earn little more than the people doing 9 to 5.
Regardless of another job, I would go to these guys and suggest they make you a director, or put you on share options for your work.
Let's assume you are going to take the new job. I'd try to make the move as gracefully as possible by:
1. Explain your situation to the new company. Explain you don't want to leave your old company in a bind but want to take their offer. find out how flexible they are in start dates. Also find out what's the earliest you can start if step 2 falls apart. If they are a decent company , they'll appreciate that you are not the type of person to bail out and leave someone in a bind, since at some point you may leave them as well.
2. Explain to your current company the situation - you will be leaving and want to engineer a smooth transition as well as be around for the initial launch hiccups. Work out a date within the time the new company gave you. If they sack you, leave and start at the new one.
3. If they counter, then you have to decide what is best for you.
Many posters talk about the lack of company loyalty to employees. Yes, it is true. I've been there and it sucks. But I caution you - separate the company from the people who work there. Not only are they friends, they are potential employers / employees / references / job leads in the future. They will appreciate your trying to do the right thing even if "the company" doesn't. Don't waste the trust and relationships you've built up over the years. It's bad personally and professionally; not to mention bad karma - a /. -1 is a joke, but a -1 in real life isn't. As a valued mentor pointed out to me: most businesses live in a small pond, just because someone else pee'd in it doesn't mean you need to remembered for doing it as well.
I've stayed friends with people who have had to make business decisions that negatively impacted me. I don't take this etchings personally, and prefer to take the high road. They appreciate it, and I feel good about who and what I am.
the only time you should burn your bridges behind you is if you are leading a powerful army on a mission of conquest and want to clearly show the choices are victory or death.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
First, tell them about the concurrency proposal and see what they say, they could adjust your salary to keep you inside the walls. If they don't, don't wait, they think you are not important in the company and your loyalty will never pay.
If you were a partner/cofounder, it would be one thing. But since you're 'merely' an employee, your ultimate loyalty is to yourself. Put in your two weeks' notice and expedite the training of the junior developers. It sounds like you have already been a conscientious and diligent worker -- you don't owe your employer anything else, except the courtesy of a formal notice of resignation. Many may call it harsh, but do you really think they'd give a second thought to making you redundant if business went south?
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
Being loyal does indeed pay, but only when both sides act in good faith. Allowing yourself to be taken advantage of is another matter entirely.
In other words, it sounds like you need more information. If your current employer acting in good faith, or merely taking advantage of you? Find this out -there are many posts in this thread already detailing how you might go about this- and then make your choice.
I've been in situations where I've been on the other side of the table to this, and lost developers 'cos they got a better offer. I've been as mad as hell about it, not because they've walked, but because I took my eye off the ball for long enough for the problem to develop...the irritation was with myself, not the guy walking. As it happens, the one guy I lost that I _really_ didn't want to was back 12 months later - when he and I finally worked out the issues that he'd been suffering in the first place.
The first thing I would do is wander into your boss' office, shut the door and have an off-the-record conversation with him/her. Explain the issues and tell them why you're considering moving and what needs to change. Be careful to phrase this as a "We have a problem, how can we work to solve it?" conversation rather than a "I'm leaving unless you fix these problems" conversation otherwise it sounds like blackmail. The fact is, you do feel some loyalty and obligation to your company and/or co-workers....so give that some rope and see what happens.
If the company you're working for has any sense and if you're any cop (and your boss is worth his salt), then they'll find a way to work with you to make you comfortable to stay. If not, or if you don't feel you even have the kind of relationship where you can have that closed door chat, then walk, you're losing nothing.
Note that opinions and attitudes to work vary widely across the world; you'll hear the mercenary "Do what's best for your money" at one extreme and the "Stay, it can't be that bad" at the other. The fact is that you have to do what's right for you, but you should always be able to look your ex-colleagues and bosses in the eye when you meet them in the pub later...
Quite happy to chat further on this if its useful, but /. open forum isn't the right place.
The other thing to consider is, if they're already paying him 7k less than what he's obviously worth, what does that say about their opinion of him as a valued employee? Most employers will be your friend if they think it'll help keep their costs down. You can only find out how they really feel when you ask for what you're worth.
Are you kidding? Where do you live, Flin Flon, Manitoba; Dildo, Newfoundland; St-Louis-de-Ha-Ha, Quebec; Tiny, Ontario; Smuts, Saskatchewan; Seven Persons, Alberta, or Horsefly, British Columbia ? (Yes, they all exist).
Try moving to one of the larger cities, you know, a place with a few million people.
Sounds like you're in a good position to negotiate some new benefits. If your current employer won't pay you any more, how about a few more weeks of holiday? How about a 60% work-from-home policy? Think creatively, if you want to stay. A few tips:
1. Be prepared to walk.
2. Keep things civil.
3. Don't mention any specifics - say "I have an offer from another company that will pay me significantly more than I make here. What can you offer me to stay?" and work from there. If your current boss asks how much the pay raise would be if you left, say "enough to make me seriously consider their offer".
4. Ask for more than you really want.
5. Let the other guy talk himself up to your level, never talk yourself down to his.
Don't be a sap - the company would dump you in a heartbeat if the accountants told them it was advantageous to the bottom line. But don't forget - so would the new company. So - the *real* question you should be asking yourself is: How stable is the new company? Why is there an opening, and why are they willing to pay you? Does the new company have a history of ramping up and down with their shifting sales revenue? When was their last downsizing? Just because they are "bigger" does not mean they are more stable. If you leave now, and 6 months from now the new company decides they don't need you - what will you do then? If you can live with the worst case scenario, then go for it - money in the hand is better than any company's promise.
And yes, I know how this works from experience - I was laid-off 8 months after doing exactly the same thing you are contemplating, and now I'm screwed with no opportunity to go back to my old job and (so far) no new offers. If I had considered more carefully the terrible history of the new company for ramping up and down, I think I might have stayed where I was - but I didn't!
If you are indispensible, and the flagship product is about to be released, how about negotiating a chunk of the action instead of more pay? In a public company this could materialize as stock options, not sure about a small private company.
This came from a consultant that was hired to process us out when I was laid off from Texas Instruments. She said "There is no such thing as Company Loyalty. A company has no loyalty to you, so why should you have loyalty to your company?" Look out for #1, take the higher paying job which is closer and enjoy your newly found money and time. Wish your friends the best, tell them you will help them out as needed on a contract basis (nights and weekends), and see if they make a counter offer to the new job.
Happiness is what I'd measure out. Also - something not mentioned is at what stage of your career you're in.
As for happiness - is your commute time stripping you of valuable time with your family? I have a similar commute and I'm used to it - but I also have some flexibility with my hours and can work from home at times. Those little perks there make up for the commute for me.
As for salary - is that 7k going to make a huge difference to you? After taxes&benefits (based on USA rates) that'll be roughly 400/mo or translates to a little over 3.36/hr before taxes. Huge difference if you're making 100k/yr vs 30k/yr.
Another thing - does this new job open up any new doors for you? In my case - I've plateaued in regards to what I can learn and do here so that's my main motivation for wanting to look elsewhere.
For me I'd measure out my priorities. I'm in my early-mid stages of my career so I still have a fair amount of momentum to be used up. Commute isn't a huge priority. Salary I can stand to remain the same. I'm just not learning/doing much else, thus not allowing much else I can add to my resume, and that's the kicker for me.
There are two questions you need to ask yourself:
In the end it all boils down to quality of life, a.k.a.: happiness. Does your current job make you happy? Do you look forward to going into work every day? That your job makes you happy may sound naïve to some, so let's sum it up as this: does going to work amount to a positive experience for you that you are (at least!) content to partake in?
To me, for example, the happiness is the kicker - if you can't guarantee yourself that you'll be happy enough in the new job that you won't miss your old one, then don't leave. Sure you'll be getting more money, saving on gas and time, and not dealing with the "long" commute... but if you're going to be miserable doing it, all you'll really be doing is giving up quality of life - and that tends to be fairly hard to come by once given up.
Note that I didn't mention how you would measure "happy with your current job" - that's something deeply personal that only you can ascertain. The key thing is: the level of happiness you expect in the new job must be sufficient that you won't miss your old one. Note that I don't say that you must be as happy as, or happier than... you just have to be happy enough that you won't want to go back.
That said, I can't help but feel that to leave now would be betraying my friends and colleagues.
Assuming they're not self absorbed, and they're truly friends I'm pretty sure they'd understand. If the company is in such a bad spot when one person leaves, they're not set up well for disasters anyway. What if you got hit by a bus? I agree with a post above that offering to do training / consulting would be a good way to transition out, even if it means a lot of work in the immediate future.
Everyone else here brings up the pay, but I think cutting commute time would be a much bigger deal to me and an opportunity that will likely never present itself again.
Speaking as someone who was fired from every job I ever held (self employed now- 14 years), you need to think long term. You have developed relationships with your current employer and the people who work there and you never know where those people will turn up in the future. I have customers that I used to work for that I never thought I would see again in a million years because of how I left. But you do have to put yourself first. Removing 90 minutes of commute time a day and more money is a great step up. Just treat the current employer with respect, maybe really try to help with the transition.
In 26 years, I've worked for 6 organizations and have held a variety of positions from server admin to senior developer. So loyalty means a lot to me.
Certain factors have to weigh in to the desire to make a change, because the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.
Adequate challenge - I have to feel that I am challenged. I could never be a button pusher, I have to feel that I'm utilizing my skills and constantly learning and developing new skills. Do I get to use new, cool technologies or are we in the dark ages? I have told nearly every manager, director, and
o Job satisfaction - Do I like my job or dread waking up in the morning because I know I have to go back to that place?
o How I was treated by the company - Do they treat me well? Are there perks like working at home a day or two a week? Does the company constantly screw with their employees? Do they work me like a dog or respect me enough to allow me to retain (some) sanity? Do they respect their employees?
o Stability of the company / profitability - How stable is the organization? Are they going to be here tomorrow or are they slashing everything to try to stay in business? Is senior management accessible and open to the state of the company? Is management properly involved?
o Salary - I like money. I would like to have a million dollars, take it all in singles, put it in a pool, and take a swim. If I have to sell my soul and work like a dog for an idiot boss in a crappy company, it's not worth it.
o Other factors - Commute, perks like flexible schedule, work from home, vacation, and decent hardware (like a good laptop).
Consider what your dream job is. Is your dream job the place you are at or the place that is recruiting you? Is the new job a stepping stone to greater things or just a lateral change? Can you make your existing place of work your dream job?
At the end of the day, the person you work for is you. Loyalty is important, but you don't need to stay so loyal as to stunt your career. Consider your options carefully. Talk to management, see what kind of plans they have for you. If you aren't satisfied, then the decision is easier to make.
Good luck to you in your decision.
I would have to disagree with much of what you say here, at least in the case of smaller companies. I've been fucked as much as the next guy (I think). And while I agree that your thinking is accurate when dealing with larger or somewhat politicized organizations, most smaller shops haven't yet succumbed to the corruption you speak of. If you've not been fucked, then don't act like you have... this is just me trying to see the glass half-full until proven otherwise (innocent until proven corrupt, anyone?).
I for one know of a small shop that got acquired a couple of years back in deep financial trouble. Everyone got fucked one way or the other. And I mean EVERYONE. Yet because of how things are run and their ability to insulate themselves from the parent company's policies, idiocy and bureaucracy, they are still fanatically loyal to each other as a group because they still run the shop the way they like it. That's an exception to the general rule of acquisitions, I know, but it also highlights the example that just because your cherry has been popped, you shouldn't assume everyone walking behind you has their dick in their hand waiting for you to drop your guard so they can play poke-the-stinker.
I've heard plenty of stories of people taking up better jobs only to be unemployed a few months later because of lousy bosses, company going under, etc. Everyone says screw it and take the offer but make sure it'll be around for you and the new people are people you can deal with.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
Being loyal is admirable, but it can easily go too far. I felt the same way as you do now, all the way up until I was laid off. While looking for a new job, I've found that I was being paid at the low end of the scale, and even though I was the only "expert" in the areas I was working on, I was let go simply because I was not working out of the main offices (or out of India).
You need to seriously consider how much loyalty your company has to you. You don't work for your colleagues or even your direct manager, you work for the company. If the loyalty isn't nearly equivalent in both directions, then you need to bring it into balance on your end, which most likely means scaling back your own sense of loyalty.
In Happy Rose Colored La La Land maybe. In the real world, not so much.
I've faced the same issue, and I chose to leave. It's a business decision. When it comes down to it, your employer would let you go if it made business sense. Businesses, successful ones at least, are only truly loyal to themselves and work toward their own interests. Every employee should do the same, in my opinion.
This was me. I forgot to log in... Oops!
If you worked for me, I would certainly appreciate the opportunity to keep you, and I wouldn't feel bitter in the least if you came to me and said 'x company is offering more money to do the same thing and it's a better fit with my life.' Yes, if I'm a douchebag, I can agree to match or beat their offer and then quietly seek to replace you, but a company's reputation among its employees hits the toilet pretty fast the moment everybody stops trusting the boss. It's my job to make sure that nobody ever stops and asks 'would Aquitaine try to replace me just because I made him match an offer another company made?'
When I hire somebody, I definitely want the opportunity to earn their loyalty -- but I know that they, like everybody, have an obligation to themselves and to their families to do right by all of them, and that's tough when they're in competition with one another. So I don't think you 'owe' your current employer any more than the customary two weeks' notice unless you feel that they've really gone the extra mile on your behalf in the past, which some small businesses will do. Even then, I'd rather have a valuable employee realize it's time to move on than regret not having done so and turn into a rotten, depressed employee.
£16K salary after 3 years. Sole developer of an enterprise level PHP tool. Sole PHP coder full stop.
Not bad enough? I'm currently working at home because my pay is going to be 2 weeks late and I now can't afford the petrol.
And now for the real kicker to top it off? I've overheard them talking to each other about version 2.0 of the product, they've not mentioned this to me and the guy who basically is in charge of new development hasn't spoken to me in months. I've overheard them talking to a friend who handles outsourcing and 'Belarus' was mentioned a few times.
Still, I've now got strong Drupal development skills and looking at job sites, Drupal is gold dust at the moment so when the inevitable does happen or if I'm able to build up a financial cushion. I shouldn't do too bad.
tldr: if you're a nice guy, you get fucked. Don't leave in a nasty way (try to ensure they've a replacement, ask new bosses if they will be ok with you offering occasional tech support if they need it) but being loyal and nice will get you screwed 95% of the time as a coder because small businesses don't realise how good they have it with you.
Do the right thing. Do what is right for you and your family at the particular point in time of your life. There will always be projects, and if your current company treats you well, that's great. As you know, especially in the UK, there are lots of layoffs happening. You may be totally loyal to the company, yet the company may lay you off. It's just business. And it will be out of your control. Training the 'juniors' is a way to help hand down your skills to the cheaper staff. Outsourcing programming jobs is getting easier, and your job may end up being outsourced in India or China. On the other hand, more money, closer commute, similar type of job - these are very attractive attributes of the new job. You will save 45 minutes in commuting time. As you put it - a massive difference in your life. DO IT!
IMO there are advantages to being a long-timer at one job. If the company is growing and you have stock options, you will do well, over time. Also if the company is placing you into more senior roles over time you will gain from that too (and not just monetarily, but in terms of valuable experience and job satisfaction). If you are not getting these upsides from staying then that is a reason to be bail.
You check out the new company and check whether they can be trusted. You check how much notice you have to give. You get a contract with the new company accordingly. You give notice, giving your reasons, without burning bridges if at all possible. See how they react. Depending on their reaction you might now know that you made the right decision.
Your old company can use your salary to hire an experienced developer again, so they shouldn't be doing too badly, and it's not your fault anyway. They could have given you some extra money, right?
Not burning bridges is important because (a) it is the professional thing to do and you don't want to damage your reputation, (b) you never know when you meet people again, and (c) you might want to go back. (Cases that I know of, the shortest time between starting a job and being fired was 10 minutes, the shortest time between starting a new job and calling the old company was also 10 minutes). About (b): A recommended business strategy is to keep some notes about any employees that leave. Some you might want to call if you hire again in case they want to come back, others you might want to hire back by mistake.
As someone who recently went from a ~50+ minute commute to a six minute commute (door to door) it’s worth it, that alone makes it worth it. That's the most valuable factor in the entire equation. I got ~+10 hours a week of my life back that I used to spend in a car. Ten. The amount of *life* I've regained, and its corresponding value, is incalculable. It's worth much more than an extra 7K/year - I'd consider the extra money as a nice bonus, the real value in this job offer is in the amount of your life you're going to get back.
/.’rs are right, we’re talking about companies, where there is no such thing as loyalty or friends *especially* between upper management and worker bees. It’s about money and greed. Period. Full stop. If they have two trained jr. developers who combined make less than you (in all forms of compensation: vacation time, medical/pension and other employer contributions, etc) then they will, in all likelihood, fire you as soon as they think those two can hold that ship afloat with the outsourced developers. I’d expect that to happen shortly after the product is launched. Unless you have shares in the company or will make beans should the product you’ve been working on takes off, then you have no stake in their game. If they really need you, they'll pay to keep you - but if they do, I think it will increase the likelihood that you're training your replacements - but are you absolutely sure you aren't already doing that?
The vast number of other
UconnGuy is 100% right about how to tell if they truly are your friends or not when you tell them about the offer. If they really are “friends”, they’ll want you to get an extra $7k/year and +~10 hours a week of your life back, as friends want what's best for you not what's best for the company. XxtraLarGe also has a very good suggestion, you can offer to stay on as a consultant. It could be for a transitional period or as long as you/they want, and with the extra ~+10 hours a week, you’re going to have *plenty* of time to do that consulting work!
Take the new job as long as you have some level of confidence that it’s a stable move and your new employer isn’t at risk for downsizing anytime soon as you’ll be the first to go if they do. Bottom line is this: time is something they’re always making more of but something you’ll never have enough of & the amount of *life* you’ll get back that you used to spend commuting will be worth infinitely more than the $7k pay rise is.
Loyalty to a company is valuable. Not as much for the relation between you and the company itself, but more for the relationship between you, your co-workers, and your managers - people remember and appreciate when you were loyal and helpful even when you ddi not have (or want) to be. It doesn't matter as much in the company you are in now, but it might help you get a job later as co-workers move on to other places.
That said. I think you should absolutely change jobs. Loyalty is good to a point but anyone reasonable would understand why this change was so much better for you, they would not lose any respect for you making this change. Also personal growth is important and changing jobs can help with that as long as you do not do so too often.... and imagine what 80 minutes every day of increased personal time is worth, that is invaluable.
Even if the new job didn't work out you could probably go back. Just change.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There are no words to describe the increase in your quality of life when you remove the commute. None. You'll be in awe of what life is actually like.
Definitely don't burn bridges, and handle it as responsibly as possible, but opportunities are opportunities, and you need to take the good ones when they come up.
Your job is not your life, your life is not your job.
My experience is that if the market you are working in is expanding rapidly, then changing companies is the way to go. I quadrupled my salary in three years changing companies four times, OK, this was computer field trouble-shooting in the oilfield in the Far East, in the boom times of the 1970s (HP & DEC minis). These were US companies & I actually returned to one after leaving them, there were no hard feelings, they knew they were lucky to get me back.
Much later I had to re-enter the same business during a fairly static period, things weren't going down, they were just not expanding. I felt I was lucky to get the job I was offered & stuck with it for four years until I had a consultancy offer, which I took, the consultancy business in that field was expanding & starting to use personal computers... was a good move then.
My point is you have to look at what is happening in the market/business you have your core skill set in. If the new company needs you to bird-dog a project & that project sells but not that well, as last in you might be first out. Let alone if that project bombs.
Don't generalise & do your research.
Nico M, London, GB.
Wow, this hits close to home.
I recently left my old position in a very large company, working with some people I really liked, to jump to another division within the same company. My pay, commute, and benefits are identical. But I'm working on different stuff, in support of different products, with a different group of people. And because I'm still in the same company, I hear from my old coworkers daily, and know that they're experiencing a not insignificant amount of pain over my leaving.
I feel slightly crappy about this. But in the end I wound up moving for two big reasons:
1. I was enjoying the work less and less, and felt the need to try something different. (An increasing amount of my work related to tools & methodology and configuration management, and I just didn't find it interesting.)
2. I was frustrated with a career which seemed to be stagnating for the last five years.
I didn't even get a raise out of my jump - you'd be getting a substantial raise, plus a drastically shortened commute. Make your exit as professional and painless as you can, but for god's sake, go.
You owe your company an honest day's work for a day's pay and that is all. You do not owe them your loyalty. Maybe that made sense decades ago but not anymore.
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
As the reasonable and competent man sitting on the other side of the table I understand the difference between "loyalty" in perhaps the Platonic sense and "business loyalty." In business, “loyalty” is almost always a two-way street, and virtues don’t have intrinsic value—often times reduced to a monetary value unfortunately. So, if I were in your shoes my reasoning/decision process would probably try to give my current employer a "handicap" so to speak—meaning I might take the beneficial proximity of the new company’s location to my home out of the equation as a token of my "loyalty" to my current employer—be sure to convert this benefit to monetary terms (fuel, wear and tear on vehicle, missed hourly earning potential during commute time, etc.) for your own knowledge and for your employer’s, so that he/she can see in more tangible terms exactly what you might sacrifice on their behalf. Apart from that however, you can bet I would expect a pay raise pretty damn close to the new company’s offer. Just be honest with yourself and employer in the decision process so that everyone knows exactly WHY you’re making the decision you’re making, and be sure to clearly communicate how your own loyalty to the company is playing a role in your decision making process—this will likely prevent regrets on your part regardless of how it all turns out, and hard feelings on theirs. All assuming a reasonable and competent other-side-of-the-table of course!
As a sysadmin. I've been in this situation a couple times over the past 6-7 years. Usually working for smaller companies (less then 500 people), after 2-3 years, it's not terribly difficult for me to find a job somewhere else that pays high-4 or low-5 figures more.
I've always leaned on the side of moving to make more. I'm not the type of person to blindly chase $$, but when it gets into the high four figure (or low 5 figure) point, it's tough not to say no. That;s not to say I jump on any old position that comes by, I still make my moves carefully... The way I see it, it's just too much money to give up. Unless I was working for immediate family (which I never have, not even distant family), the feeling of guilt of leaving the place usually subsides very quickly. If they can't keep up with market rate for my position, tough beans for them.
14 years ago, I was working with a group that was among the best and brightest I ever worked with.. My managers and I *liked* each other (no PHB bosses, there - the PHB was in another team....)
According to a close friend, who's also a degreed, practicing clinical psychologist, I was *that* close to clinical burnout.
How many hours is your usual day, or week? Is it over 50 hrs/wk? 60? How tired are you?
I hated leaving them, but exhaustion won out (and my ...late... wife being only semi-joking about suing them for alienation of affection). Will the new job be as good as the old... or more exhausting, and more and more hours? Remember, whatever management thinks, you're working to live, not living to work for them.
mark
Follow these instructions right now, don't read further then the step you've taken:
1) Find a coin
2) Decide what heads and tails will be
3) Flip the coin.
4) look at the result as the final result.
5) Are you happy with that result? If answer is yes, that's your decision. If answer is no, then pick the other option.
I am a loyal employee as well, generally. But in my years of working, I've been royally screwed three times in return for my loyalty (including just recently). But more often then not, I get handed opportunities because the people I work with want to continue working with me in some fashion. Being fair, loyal, and producing good work does pay off.
But, don't be a sucker either. Any reasonable person will understand if you have to make a hard choice because its the right choice for you and your family. I've done that, and it always plays out well. Be fair, make some compromises if needed, but remember whats really important in life.
Now if I can just remember how to change the signature below..
-- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
I'm just now entertaining a job offer from a prospective new employer.
There is the normal risk involved with making a move to a new employer, but one of the factors that is steering me away from taking the offer is the attitude that the director I would be working for had towards his current employees. When interviewing with him, his plans for the future involve adding many "resources" to the department. Not people; resources.
The quality of people that I work with and for currently is the largest reason I've stayed where I am up to now. They don't pay the best, but being treated as a human and working with legitimate friends rather than within forced relationships is worth a lot.
That being said, I have no illusions that the company would have any problem getting rid of me if the balance sheet said so. I have no loyalty to the company, just to the people I work immediately with.
My mother went through a similar situation. Sort of.
It went like this: She got a job offer at a company (B) that had better offices, a more interesting aspect of the same job, giving her more importance at the company, more respect, and significantly more money.
She told her boss where she worked (company A) that she got this job offer and was considering it.
Boss A counter-offered with more money. She considered.
Company B counter-offered with more money. She considered.
A counter-offered, B counter-offered...each time she'd tell the other company what the new offer was, and finally decided after 4 counter-offers to go with Company B.
So my advice would be to tell your colleagues and friends that you've received this offer. Tell them it's extremely tempting (do it over a beer or something) because it's more money and gives you way more time during your day, but you understand the burden it would place on your existing company and friends/colleagues.. I think, especially in an informal setting like a few drinks, it would naturally move to how it would affect your current company, and maybe what they can do for you.
I am an extremely firm believer that communication easily eliminates over 95% of people's problems with each other. If you communicate this to your current company, and it goes extremely bad, the decision is made; that's the worst that happens. The best is that you get the companies fighting over you like my mother and get to pick the best for you.
Also, unless these are going to be friends for many, many years, do what YOU have to do. What YOU want to do. Sometimes you have to take care of Number 1 first.
Hope this was helpful
Depends how you've been treated.
If the company has gone out of its way in the past to look after you, then treat them likewise. At the least, you could see if a two month changeover would make their life easier (if the new company would be willing to do that).
If you've been treated as just another employee, then behave that way.
My Journal
First, no matter how bad you think they will be, they will mange without you. They wont be working as smoothly but they will move ahead.
It's easy to think you are more vital than you really are just because you know every tiny intricacy of a system or THE system. Truth is, most capable developers will be able to, within reasonable time, catch up with you. Sometimes even a fresh mind may improve upon things that old ways of thinking didnt. I been at both ends of that reality. It's just the way things are.
Just be as polite as possible, if they approach asking why, you can tell them details of the offer and note that it would just not be wise to take such an offer as it's an increadible career advancement path. Offer as much help as you can, spend the next two weeks writing documentation, be as throughout as you can and helpful. In the future, this employer may be contacted for references so you dont want to be rude either. You want to make sure they can't say anything bad about you. Tell them you love the job, but you must think of your future.
They MAY ask you something along the lines of "what can we do to keep you?". At that point you can ask something along the lines of them matching the pay rate, but (if you are in a large company) it may not happen due to pay increase policies.
But answering the title: No, it does not pay to be loyal. Actually, being loyal is very expensive and comes out of your pocket. What pays is to be polite, efficient, helpful and making job transitions as smoth as you can for your old employer.
Your only REAL loyalty is to yourself. Make the choice that will make your life better. It's as "easy" as that.
Right after a layoff, that is what our head of engineering told those of us remaining standing. It has forever put my relationship with my employers in stark relief.
In this brutal capitalist world our loyalty is bought in 2 week increments. If the company decides to buy it longer, they can. But if they have not put stock options, retention bonuses, a corner office, a golden parachute, good vacation days per year, or a highly competitive salary on the table already, then it is your fiduciary responsibility to your tiny entrepreneurship (i.e. your household) to seriously consider all other options. Bear in mind that it is likely that if they chose to you would get 2 weeks pay and a boot print on your hindquarters, and your loyalty should be scaled appropriately.
At the same time, weigh any potential hit to your reputation within your field. If you are in a small industry be sure not to burn too many bridges that will hurt you in the future.
If I had it to do all over again I would have consistently switched jobs every 3-5 years. For the following reasons: It builds your network of coworkers providing you even more opportunities in the future. Keeps stagnation from setting into your career. Keeps you from doing what you are doing now; over valuing yourself. If you are indeed that valuable to the company they will compensate you but it is always dicey promoting within.
The days of staying with one company and being amply rewarded with things like pensions and raises is long over. Loyalty rarely gets you anything. I've been a software developer for over 20 years. I've worked for roughly four companies in that time. The pay increases I got from switching jobs is about triple that I received for my 'loyalty' (staying with the same company). I recommend giving your two week notice because that's the ethical thing to do.
Whether you leave your employer, or your employer lets you go, the taste it leaves in your mouths comes from how it's executed.
If your employer lays you off by talking to you personally and taking you out for drinks, then that will leave a much better feeling than if they lock you out of the building, mail you a cardboard box filled with your personal belongings, and threaten to sue you if you work for anyone they feel is a competitor.
Likewise, if you document really well, make yourself available for questions, take everyone out for drinks, and get your coworkers to feel happy for you about the promotion, then that makes a huge difference compared to if you just hand in two weeks notice and split as if you don't care.
He said "company", not "corporation". There's a big difference, at least in the vernacular usage.
1) 7k UK seems a bit low to jump ship. Bargain with the offering company.
2) DO NOT LET ON TO YOUR CURRENT COMPANY YOU HAVE AN OFFER. You will hose yourself. Instead say something like, "I worked hard on this project and I am training up two others. How about a raise"? Ask for at least 7k. If you see a nice project starting in the near future you would like to work on offer to take the lead position on the project. Move the junior developer more of a maintenance programmer type role, at least until they get more experience. That will sweeten the deal on your current employers end. If they don't pay, and all other things being equal, walk.
3) Remember it is a business decision and I have *never* seen loyalty rewarded. Crunch the numbers. Also look at opportunities for professional growth. Every job should be a stepping stone to a better job. Run your career like a business.
HTH
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Your business has one employee, you. You are in business to offer programming (or other technical) services, in exchange for compensation.
In each potential change of employment, you face a decision about costs and benefits. Loyalty is a good thing, and is one of the factors. But it's not everything. Compensation, quality of life, travel requirements, friendships with co-workers, commute time...all of these are factors that go into a decision whether to stay or go.
When you think of yourself as a business, it allows you to look at your employment decisions more objectively, leading to better outcomes for you and for your employer. I've found that it is possible to go to your employer to ask for a raise, based on logical business-related principles, and do it without offending anyone or threatening to leave. If you are indeed as valuable as you think you are, the company will likely make a better offer, and no one has to be resentful about that.
Have they been loyal to you?
Have they shown that you're valuable to them, and I don't mean "did they pay your salary on time", did they give you the feeling that you are viewed as an asset, were they considerate when you were in an emergency and needed their aid, be it time off or some cash in advance?
In a nutshell: Do they deserve your loyalty?
That's essentially the question. Do you consider the job one where you are comfortable? Is that where you want to be? I have rejected "better" jobs because my current employer does actually value me as an asset, they were very accommodating when I got sick and I do consider that an asset that can't be paid for with money. I am loyal, because they showed me very clearly that they deserve my loyalty. And I tend to take this quite serious.
I would consider whether the company is a good place to work at, more than job opportunity or money. If you're treated like a hire and fire drone, money doesn't matter.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It's not just about the extra 7K plus the shorter distance.
- What about the career prospects in either company? If you're not talking about "career" yet, will the other company offer you anything that will make your CV look better? (certifications / experience / brand name)
- What about the people in the new company? You know the people in your current job, but what about the new job? I wouldn't want to lose my mates so as to enter a highly paid viper pit with everyone back-stabbing everybody else.
- What about the companies themselves? Any solid roadmap? You wouldn't want to join the one company that is doing very well right now but the CEO is short-sighted or has a(n apparently) totally wrong grasp of where the market is going. I'd stick with the company where the management was more insightful and knew what they were doing.
I saw this dilemma from the manager's side just two weeks ago.
I'm an IT consultant for a rail operator and I'm leading a small group of developers within the company, where we're essentially building its IT infrastructures from scratch (and that's LOTS of software, among other things). There's tons of work but the hours are flexible, the atmosphere is relaxed, friendly and informal, the salary is good and overall we're more friends than co-workers. Although this is Greece, the business outlook isn't *that* :) bad for anyone who stays as the consolidation plan we've been implementing is beginning to pay off and the boss knows what he's doing.
Just two weeks ago one of our developers jumped ship to join a big international company mainly known for its database product (and for upsetting the OSS community at large the last year or so :). Sure, it looks like a safe bet from miles away given the circumstances, but there are *always* pitfalls, so we wanted to make sure he had all the questions straight before he moved on. Hence, we had a very similar conversation to this, on a friendly, person-to-person level.
I'm no longer fed up with MS Windows: I go rid of them
The short-term time and cash benefits of moving are clear: an extra hour for you each day, and more than £300 better off each month after the Exchequer's take.
Now think:
-What are you learning in your current workplace? What would you learn at the new one? Not only from the point of view of technology, but also from a wider business perspective.
-How do the two businesses differ? Think present business model, future prospects, etc. Don't just consider how the companies pay salaries today, but how they will continue doing it tomorrow.
And now for the final one:
-How would the new workplace challenge, strain and push you further compared to the current one?
-How would you improve as a professional in the new job?
I've left a couple companies, one of them twice, where I enjoyed working with the people was immediately around but due to acquisitions or change in corporate management I felt the overall company wasn't a good fit anymore. In all of these cases, and even now when I'm looking at what is out there, I ask myself a simple question: are they loyal to me? Unless it's a small company that is still small I have no doubts that they would get rid of me at any point it made business sense. So why should I not look out for #1, too? Plus, there's the bus situation. As much as we'd like to think we're indispensable, if something were to happen to someone things will be a mess for awhile but everyone left will find a way to make it work. If it's a better deal for me then business will go on.
Twice I've had job offers which were clearly better than my current job. I wanted to remain on good terms, so I explained the situation. Both times they didn't counter, they knew it was a better job, and they understood why it would be foolish not to take it.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
You want to be only as loyal as makes sense to you. For every story of how workers being loyal has been good I can relate stories of how businesses made decisions that amounted to "sorry, things are bad, had to cut you, and can't afford a dime of severance, wish we could, but bummer" at 4:48pm on a Tuesday.
Depending upon how close you are to finishing a project, you could ask for a touch more time from your new job and then tell your current employer "I can stay 6 weeks if you'd like to finish all this up, if you are willing to pay me at my new pay rate" Don't give them an extra money and give up 800 pounds!
But in the end, companies that wish to staff so thin that they get single points of failure are no different that hosting companies that don't do backups to save money and then expect expect everyone to work crazy hours when their primary storage fails after several years -- they all want everything but don't want to pay for it.
Be true to yourself and do what you think is right. Everything else is bullshit. Go against your own personal code and you will regret it.
Over the last 4 years I've managed a rather good run of moving up to bigger/better positions. In each case I have had to answer the "what would it take to keep you here" question and in each case I said that I wasn't interested in renegotiating. Upping my pay or asking for more of "X" changes the relationship in a way that cannot ever be undone, and odds are it doesn't solve the underlying problem anyway. More money for you doesn't solve the bad manager / small budget / long commute problem and any/all of those things will wear on you over time. Find someplace you like with a low idiot and/or psycopath to normal person ratio, remember to keep your skills current, and work to increase your value to the company just because it can't hurt.
Ever feel like you are driving the getaway car?
screw up a few times, then see how "loyal" your "friends and colleagues" are to you.
'nuff said?
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They're been been in business for at least several years and they have higher management? Then they should be big enough to absorb the loss of any one developer at any time. Otherwise, they're not really run right. And in that case you should want to leave because that indicates poor planning abilities and you may be forced to get another job in the future anyway when they close down due to their poor planning.
Do whats right for you. The company will survive without you - and if it won't the owners of the company are foolish for not looking after you better, and they don't deserve your loyalty.
As a couple of people on here have said, the 90m back each day could be worth much more than the 7k from a quality of life perspective.
Plus I bet its only 90m on a good day, I bet you have days when its 90m each way !
That 90m per day represents 7.5 hours of your time per week.
Consider that you work 40 hours per week, and if you sleep 8 hours per night you sleep 56 hours per week and that the week is only 168 hours long.
168 - 40 - 56 = 72
So all this means if you get 7.5 hours back you have a little bit more than 10% more "you" time, which is massive.
Alex
As an engineer we take pride in our work. we want the company we work for to do well, even if you no longer to work for them. The company policies and how the company treats it's ex employee are dictated by its HR People. My experience tells me they are trained to be heartless and view every decision they take in terms of money. they think with their head. Move on ! it's your life and family that are more important. I am sure you will find new challenges in your new position.
I was in this exact situation, although the pay/opportunities difference was rather more stark. I'm friends with the owner and I was the lead developer and the only person that could take on the broader and larger software/systems issues.
Philosophy: as much as you care for the company they're not your friends or family in the business context and no business is worth sacrificing yourself for. You must realise that if it's a matter of business necessity, as much as the people in the company may care for you, they would also do the equivalent - make you redundant - if necessary.
Leaving the company doesn't mean you have to leave them in the lurch. I'm consulting for the company I used to work for (I negotiated this ability into my new contract). I can still take care of the big issues that no one else can at my old company and this actually means the old company has become a more efficient business as they only pay me to handle the issues that I truly need to handle. Sometimes I wish I had more free time in the evenings, but because I care for the people there I'll continue to consult until the company is in a good technical position that I'm comfortable with.
Now I've left my old company I've seen the other developer grow as a developer and, unexpectedly, I believe I've become a more effective lead there as I'm more inclined to discuss and outline a solution rather than implement it myself.
In your situation I would move, as long as I was going to work for people I respect and I believed I would grow as a person in the new environment. The extra 1 1/2 hours of the day you'll save in commuting is a very significant chunk of time too - equivalent to a 20% salary raise in itself.
Your dedication and loyalty becomes worthless the minute new management comes along, or the company is sold. If you really feel loyalty to your co-workers keep them in mind if jobs that suit them open up at your new employer. Also, don't bother with offering your current employer the opportunity to match, it almost always results in surprisingly tiny increases afterwards, where a new employer is likely to consider your salary a starting point, your current employer probably sees you at the top of your pay scale. Either way, good luck and congrats :-)
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
Loyalty doesn't mean that you can't ever take another job. It does, however, mean that you should be nice about it. Give your existing company as much notice as you possibly can (in a situation like this, I'd recommend at least a month if at all possible). Be respectful, and don't burn any bridges you can leave standing. If the new company has even an ounce of brain, they'll respect this, or at least accept it.
If you want to do a little more than that for them, you could offer to do a _few_ hours of consulting afterward (paid, of course), working around your new work schedule -- not coming back to work for them part time long-term or anything, just helping their new guys out a little here or there at first when they have questions that only you can answer on account of the fact that they weren't up to speed yet when you left. So if two days after you leave they realize "Oh, man, we totally forgot to ask him anything about how the frobnicator is set up" they don't have to panic and slit their wrists.
If *that* doesn't sound like enough, maybe you're so into your current job that you might consider staying. But that's up to you. You're under no obligation to stay. (I'm assuming here that your employment is at-will, as is usual in the US, not contracted for some predetermined amount of time.)
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
I thought this was going to suck. But a lot of good advice going both directions above (at least the 5 and 4 mods). I'm a company owner, and hope staff like you would come and talk about it. If someone has been a good and loyal staff, what is best for YOU counts a lot with me. I generally know when someone is bluffing... Not recommended
Gently reply
Absolutely. First, listen to your gut. If you think it would be a betrayal, that's because it would be, in some sense.
So: tell the new company you are going to need an extra two weeks to finish up at the old one, and that you'd extend the same courtesy to them if they were in the same predicament. Because you're honest and loyal.
If the new company is really worth working for, they will say "damn straight skippy, we'd sure like to have you sooner but this just proves we were right to choose you!". If the new company is really a bunch of backstabbing rapacious bastards who have every intention of using you up and throwing you away at their earliest convenience, they will say "Oh, no, it's our way or the highway, you insignificant peon". In which case you don't really want to work for them, it just seems that way right now.
So, assuming the new company is worth working for, and they give you the extra two weeks, you then go back to the old company and tell them "look, unless you are moving the whole business to be next door to my house, you can't match these guys' offer. But I negotiated an extra two weeks out of them so that I can help you get the new guys up to speed - so let's get doing that, now".
People (reasonable people, anyway) understand that you need to do what's right for you, and will appreciate the extra effort you've put into trying to accommodate others' needs too.
First, what kind of car does your boss drive? Is there some useless employee that earns more than you but could be tossed overboard in a second? These things will tell you if there is some money around for you.
Second. Once those two juniors are trained up for less salary how useful will you be. Would you be first to be tossed in a cutback? If they gave a crap about you then other companies couldn't match or beat your salary so easily.
Lastly don't negotiate from 7K down. If they offer you 3K to stay tell them yes if that is 3K over the 7K. Even then the new company wants you to start at 7K more whereas your company might resent your 7K demand. The only reason their feelings would be hurt by your "disloyalty" is if they have done something special for you. Exchanging work for money is not special.
If you have good relationship with your managers you may not feel like bargaining. £7k doesn't sound much assuming this is on annual salary. But those 1.5 hrs of commute you are saving can be much more beneficial. You are recovering about 8% of your waking life which could be spent in better way.
In the long run you know this new job is more beneficial for you. So start talking to your managers, not for bargaining but to explain your scenario. Tell them you do need to quit, but give them time to plan your departure so that there is no feeling of betrayal. If given some time, they can recruit someone capable enough to take it over from you. If the other company really wants you they will relax their joining date.
But before you talk, you should make up your mind on what you want. All the best.
I think this really depends on the company, the place I used to work for was a small family run company, there was a few insanely loyal employees who had been there for longer than I've been out of high school (and in one case longer than I've been alive), unfortunately for them when redundancies were announced my job was safer than theirs and somebody who had been with the company for about 30 years, would work on his holidays if requested, never had a sick day and knew the directors since they were kids, he was one of the first people to be made redundant, another who had been working for the company had been there for about 15 years was also up for redundancy.
It was a small family company, we all got on well, it was a close knit group and we'd all quite happily go to the pub together, but at the end of the day it's a business, they'll put the company first if it comes to it so you need to make sure you put yourself first.
You're evil to do this to them. It is clear you are setting up the situation. Nasty.
By "outsourcing" some of the work, the company has already shown their colors. Just go.
Don't bargain for more, 'cause that will simply put you at the top of the "to be replaced" list. Do offer some strictly described and limited in time and intensity "tech support", either for a fee or for free, unless they are a competitor for your new "temp job" ('cause that's all they are, these days).
“Loyalty where loyalty is due” - and - “communication is key” will prove useful to you. At the very least you should explain the situation to your current employer. If your employer gives you a reason to be loyal, then be loyal. Money is only part of the equation, be flexible and negotiate.
If you are ever undecided about an action to take from a purely financial perspective, just ask yourself, which one action is more evil?
Take the new job.
Management would beat with a pool cue until you had dettached retinas for less money than that. Do you really think that management wouldn't sell out their employees for a buck? They already outsourced a big chunk of the code you said. One way loyalty is simply holding the hand that holds you down.
Actually, there is absolutely something "they can do to eliminate your commute" - they can pay him (her?) more money to make up for the (likely) difference in rent or inconvenience of relocation expenses. This argument in general is highly unreasonable and perpetuates the "fuck everyone" attitude. Meanwhile, even in very big cities individual industries in IT have a relatively small pool of people, and a good % of jobs are found via former coworkers. So while the company might not think twice before fucking you, you should think twice before fucking your colleagues - in a few months, when you interview in some other company, your resume might be on their desks.
Be generous and give them your standard 2 weeks notice after making DAMN SURE the job offer is solid.
Make sure the offer with the next company is firm, in writing, and they can spare you long enough to let you give your old boss the required notice.
If the new company refuses to play ball with you, take it as a sign that they're probably not going to treat you well if they can't even be bothered to get their paperwork in order or let you be courteous to your former boss.
If the old company can't handle losing you in 2 weeks, take it as a sign that their own house is probably not in order well enough, and it's easily suggestible that you're on a sinking ship anyway.
Be nice and be professional to both sides and cover your ass.
The question was, does it pay? Obviously not as well as the new position will.
Now why did you have to read through 542 other posts to get to the simple answer?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
So I'm a boss of a small manufacturing line (product I invented when I was an engineer). I have 35 direct reports. I have several that I feel are key, but I can tell you this, I can replace anyone of them and survive even though I tell them I can't live without them. If one of my employees comes and asks me honestly what they should do in your situation, I say, leave. I'll even give them a great reference if they ask and deserve such. If life will be better for you in the other company, go to the greener pasture. If you stay and bring your "what if" regrets to work with you every day, you'll bring the rest of my staff down with you. So go, be free and happy!
We show geeks how to get their dream girl at EyesOfOdessa.com
First company I worked for was a great place to work - small but growing, varied work, nice salary increases (yes, this was almost 20 years ago). I left rather regretfully - personal circumstances meant I'd had to move out of the area, but they even helped me out by taking me on as a contractor for the first six months in my new location, while I got on my feet there.
Later, after my next employer had been and gone and I'd been out of work for some time, they came back and asked if I wanted to telecommute. Didn't work particularly well, but they stuck by me even when I went through a burnout and had to go on short-term disability until my brain was less fried.
However, all it took was one incident with miscommunication between two managers, which resulted in one of them losing face, and I went from being prized to getting a lousy review (which I protested as strongly as I could) and put on a probationary period - where I was put to work doing something completely different from what I was really hired for, and generally treated like scum before finally being laid off (and I later heard they were very pleased because they'd found out that the money saved could pay for two outsourced developers).
So - small firms can be good, but the very smallness that makes them sometimes great places to work can turn on your very quickly, and it's much easier to get canned because of a personality clash or an idiot who wants somebody else to take the fall for their mistake. Your company has already demonstrated that they aren't above outsourcing. You might feel bad about doing it at a time when your company sees you as their golden boy, but if the sheen wears off once those two junior developers get up to speed, that perceived loyalty on their part may evaporate. Go with the better offer - while people within companies may be nice or decent, companies themselves basically don't give a damn, and even a CEO who is your best buddy one day can turn on a dime and can you the next. Having a good offer from elsewhere is getting to be a rare thing - don't miss the opportunity. It's good that you're not jaded enough to automatically think that way - I've gotten to the point where I'll work for nobody but myself, I've got complete distrust of employers.
I hate the expression "we're all one big family [at this company]". It is a lie. The company is just another marketplace.
One of my best bosses told me "keep your resume on the street. You should know how much you are worth. If someone offers you a lot more money, please give me a chance to match it."
We exist in a market environment. Companies will lay you off at any point without thinking about your situation. Creative destruction is going on all around us.
Two weeks notice is a reasonable thing, but even that is not a hard and fast rule depending on the situation. No one owns you, you own you.
Short answer: No. To expand on that: No, being loyal does not pay as a developer.
It's not so much that as the fact that bosses have more leverage than peons.
They get your loyalty without reciprocating simply because they have all the cards and can burn you if they want to, whereas you cannot return that favor.
In a word: stay! Stay, stay, stay! Go with your gut and stay where you are.
Loyalty is important to you, and it's important to the people you currently work with - with, not for. It's very questionable and unlikely that it will be valued at the company you are considering. Consider what you are leaving behind that you may not get back. A place where you are good friends with the upper management, and a shared sense of loyalty. These are intangibles that don't contribute to a paycheck but they do contribute to your job satisfaction. Your work is your life, and you must ask yourself if you are willing to work a job that you may hate but pays well, and how much time and income are you willing to give up to do something you love?
Also consider, if moving up the corporate ladder is important to you, this is a small company on the verge of their big launch. Odds are, even if they fail, that you will move up as the company grows, faster than if you join a smaller company. You know the dynamics of your company, not us, so you must be the judge of that.
This should be a no-brainer. Stick with your current job.
I worked in IT at a mortgage company for three years and got laid off before one of my less senior co workers as the company began its slow implosion. I had been there longer than him and my boss.
I had been at a different mortgage company for three years when my boss left with a better job. He took me aside and said he had a position there for me and could set up an interview with his new boss if I liked. I interviewed and was offered the job for $6000 more than I was making. I told my employers and offered them the opportunity to counter-offer, expressing my love of the job and desire to stay. They declined and I put in my notice.
On my last day my employer came to me and said the execs had changed their minds because of everything I did around the place, that they'd bump me $6000. I was extremely pleased, and the raise was effective immediately. Three months later I was laid off with half the IT department. I tried to contact my old boss and got no response; that bridge had been burned by me staying on at my old job.
Obviously I think you should take the job without another thought. Believe me, no one cares about you but you.
Buy your next Linux PC at eightvirtues.com
I'm loyal to me. I recently left a good job for a new higher paying less commute job. I love the extra money and the shorter commute. So go for it.
I know myself, so I know bargaining just tends to make me angry...but if you do it, definitely have a plan. If you want a raise, just ask for it and don't try to bludgeon management with another offer. I'll say hey boss I'm ready for a $10k raise (but more flowery). Then if you don't like what they offer, you can always reply with: I'm disappointed with your offer of $5k, it doesn't seem in line with my value to the company or in the marketplace, I'd really like $10k. If they still don't budge, just leave.
Take the new job. Your relationship with the company is a business relationship. They'll only keep you around as long as they feel you're contributing sufficiently to the bottom line. You should evaluate the company the same way. If someone came along and offered to do your job for less pay you'd be on the street in a heartbeat. When someone offers you more money to work for them, take it.
Companies have no loyalty to you, you should have none for them. The old company, and any other, including the new one, would not think twice about throwing your ass out on the street. Maximize your revenues at all times against the day when you have none.
You are asking for permission to improve your life. Just do it. Everyone is replaceable. Leave good documentation for stuff that is hard to figure out. If you have been a good employee then you would have done that as a matter of course anyway. Give them sufficient notice and help them as much as possible during your transition out period.
No.
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
Loyalty will cost you much, and benefit you little. Don't be a dick, give them a few weeks notice, but take the job that's better for you.
As a senior developer, shouldn't your salary be high enough that an additional 7k a year isn't all that much, just an extra month's worth?
You should ask your current employer for a raise to match your new offer. If they don't match it, then no, it obviously doesn't pay to be loyal.
Don't think you are as needed as you suppose. As the saying goes, "The graveyard is filled with people once thought of as irreplaceable."
I understand the feeling, you want the job to be more than just a relationship of convenience and profit. It seldom works out like that. It might feel that way for a while, but hit an economic downturn, or face a suddenly buyout or change in upper management and you'll soon see the reality. You need to do what is in your personal best interest, taking everything into account (not just the money). If it was in the best interest of the company to lay you off, they'd do it in an instant, and likely with a lot fewer qualms as you feel now.
good luck!
Peace, or Not?
Take the offer, but then offer to your (now) former employee that you can help/consult/be available in the evenings or weekends for particularly difficult problems. Offer to do it for free and if they do value you, they might be willing to pay you for it. Your junior developers will be grateful but not as grateful as the owners.
This has worked for me twice in the past. You don't burn bridges, and in fact strengthen relationships. You will probably find, as I did, that your period of working two jobs will last less than a month.
in the end you must understand that in 99% of cases, they would end up booting you out if it was required. Loyalty only goes as far, then it's down to business.
There was an unknown error in the submission.
I haven't done it myself since I've been self-employed for ... well what seems like forever, but I have seen several people leave their jobs only to come back as contractors days later with a 300% bump in their pay. A company of any size will have limits on what they pay people internally. Those rules generally don't apply to contractors with very specialized knowledge.
It's not the fact that you have a hammer that gets you paid, it's the fact that you know what, where, when, why, and how to whack whatever it is that needs fixing.
This is really a question of your priorities, and a little bit about whether you think your current company is likely to be successful; I say that because a small company generally has much better growth potential, but also a much higher chance of failing.
Personally I think the pay rise you mention is pretty small change. The convenience of the commute is nice. But it seems to me much more important to ask yourself if the new/bigger company offers you a better career opportunity than your existing one. Another important consideration is the personal relationships you have at your current position. In my 25+ years in software, those relationships have been far and away more important than any other consideration.
Is the new offer solid? Is it subject to references? Is the new company solid, or a startup that could disappear? You'll need a good reference from your present employer if the new company tanks, but if it's a long term contract or a permanent post with the new company then that may not be such an issue. Is the new post one that you'd enjoy? There's lots of people saying "screw them, they'd screw you" but from what I know of small dev companies in the UK, I think they're showing a US bias.
You've given us an figure for the income raise you're getting, rather than a %age, so I can't really tell what level you're at, which would be useful (though I understand why you may not share this). Will this take you into the higher-rate tax band (making that £7k smaller, losing family allowance from 2013, other considerations)? Flat salary isn't everything, you need to consider pension and other benefits (I'm sure you have, but you haven't shared that, so we can't figure that in).
Share your quandary with your company. The 45 min commute is costing you, both in hours and quality of life. Give them a chance to step up and match the offer + compensation for that commute. If your leaving will cost them as much as you say, they'll be happy to do that, and you'll have shown your loyalty by giving them this chance, but be sure to spell out exactly what you're expecting from them. Your CV will be enhanced if you stick with them to getting a 'flagship' product out the door, and if they're really your friends and have proper business acumen they'll be happy to have this chance to keep you. Just be sure that you're strong enough to resist any "jam tomorrow" promises and stress that this isn't a bluff or blackmail attempt (not in those words, though). Unless you live in the middle of a tech zone, they're going to know who's offering you the job, so be certain that whoever you approach isn't somebody who's going to wreck your new offer. If you have any doubts about this strategy, that's probably a sign that you don't really trust your present company and you should just jump ship.
Good luck, whatever you do. Note that if any of your present company management are ./ers then they'll probably finger you for this post if you approach them, not that that should matter, you've been very honest about your dilemma, just don't be surprised.
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Treat it like any normal relationship. Don't stay because of guilt, stay because you're happy.
Actually, there is absolutely something "they can do to eliminate your commute" - they can pay him (her?) more money to make up for the (likely) difference in rent or inconvenience of relocation expenses.
This argument in general is highly unreasonable and perpetuates the "fuck everyone" attitude. Meanwhile, even in very big cities individual industries in IT have a relatively small pool of people, and a good % of jobs are found via former coworkers. So while the company might not think twice before fucking you, you should think twice before fucking your colleagues - in a few months, when you interview in some other company, your resume might be on their desks.
Unless you worked for Sun in 2010, I don't really care about your uninformed opinion. As for fucking your colleagues, give me a break; they'd kill their own mothers to get the knife to stab you in the back if it meant they get to keep their miserable jobs through the next redundancy. It's not unreasonable at all; it's the way things work. You can look out for number one or you can take it up the ass; I don't really give a damn either way but I do think these young kids should hear the advice once so they can regret not heeding it later.
The bare fact that you are asking /. for advice shows that you want to complete the project roll-out and fulfill your responsibility. If the new company really wanted you then they would wait.
Be under no illusions: when times turn bad for your present company, they'll toss you over the side like a used kleenex. Your first priority -- your prime directive -- is to look out for yourself.
It's the job of the company's management to manage risks, and one of the risks they face is losing their main development resources (whether voluntarily or involuntarily -- you could get hit by a bus). They need to manage that risk by ensuring -- in terms of compensation -- that the risk of voluntary departure is minimized. Clearly they have failed to do so adequately. That's their problem. They'll have to deal with the fall-out from their own lack of understanding and foresight.
You, however, have a primary responsibility to yourself and to your family. Loyalty be damned; that's just a mind game. There's business and then there's friendship -- and business trumps friendship every time -- please see first statement above and exit (to break recursion).
licet differant, aequabitur
Loyalty always matters, as it's an indication of how you value relationships over money and personal convenience. Ask the company making the offer whether they'd be willing to postpone hiring you for a month or so. If that's too long, see if you can start in two weeks but on a part-time basis for two weeks. Also, explain to your current employer what the situation is, and see if you can come to some sort of agreement on how much longer you can stay on without compromising your next career steps.
If you're asking if it "pays" to be loyal, you're no longer talking about loyalty. Loyalty is about sticking with someone no matter how great the value of changing sides is. It's about willing to stick around even if it doesn't "pay". You're not asking about loyalty. You're just wondering if staying on will benefit you more in the long run.
Salary is a nice part of your total compensation. You mentioned lack of commute, too.
Regular hours, vacation time, trustworthiness of management (people are jumping to the assumption that you're a sucker for loyalty because they're used to managers having none of their own but you may have just as much of a "sucker" protecting you and that counts for A LOT), stability of the company, potential for growth, potential to avoid getting canned because of things outside your control, atmosphere within the team, pride in the work you do or could do, medical, pension, vacation time all such things are worth considering too. There's even value in the concept of "a change is as good as a rest." I've said it myself, "This may well be a case of the grass is always greener. But, if it takes me a year to realize that, I still spend a year enjoying what feels like greener grass."
That 45 minute commute you avoid doesn't mean anything if your current company is good about sticking to a 9-6 while the new company buys cheap pizza at 8pm each night to keep people working until midnight. The extra 7k might be nice but are you trading it for being the last one in, first one out, the moment something's rocky in the new company?
Or the reverse might be true... That 7k and the 45 minutes of commute may be the least of what you're gaining as you move to a healthier environment, get more vacation time, better benefits, bonuses that actually materialize, etc.
Either way, look at the whole picture. Weigh up which is the right option for you.
If moving is the right option, politely give your notice without burning any bridges. When asked why you're leaving, explain it that dispassionately. It's a business decision, just like they'd make. You're not trying to sabotage them, you're not upset with them, you've simply got an offer that's too good to pass up.
The other advantage of really considering the whole picture is you know what the new job's really worth to you. It's not just that 7k. The commute's worth x to you as well. The other benefits are worth +/-y. It might be that another 3k and a title change are enough to make you stay, it might be that their matching or even doubling that 7k isn't worth it once you factor everything else in. Knowing where you stand, having factored everything in, beforehand, lets you keep everything purely business and non personal.
That's the difference between Wall street bankers and the rest of the folks. And that's probably why Wall street bankers take huge paychecks, while the rest of the folks just pass money for "What will my so called friends and colleagues think about me?".
It all depends on your company. Have they been loyal to you in the past? What is their behaviour towards other employees? Can you derive from that if they're likely to be loyal to you in the future?
Most companies don't know loyalty. On the first restructuring project, they'll set you free if they don't need you anymore. So why shouldn't you be doing the same?
Some companies, OTOH, will try to keep their employees, even if it means a hit to their baseline. Usually, these are smaller companies run by an owner who is interested in long-term relationships more than quarterly figures.
In general: If you have a better offer, the best thing to do is the honest way: Tell your boss that you have a better offer and are thinking about leaving, and give him the chance to match it (and that doesn't only mean salary!). That way, when they don't and you leave, they can't go whining about it. After all, free market and all, they always love it when it's the source of their profits.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
To quote :
/Life does not come with a manual
The biggest mistake that you can make is to believe that you are working for somebody else.
Job security is gone.
The driving force of a career must come from the individual.
Remember: Jobs are owned by the company, you own your career !
- Earl Nightingale
The rest, loyalty to employer, family, pay, job satisfaction and so on is very individual so YMMV
So YOU need to decide how to balance things to may it work to your own satisfaction.
Small startups need to share with their devoted employees. If they do not, the two juniors will replace you and you will be redundant.
Now is the time to analyse their intentions. Do so by asking. Diplomatically them what you have.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
Well not free but the employers pays it 100% in for instance Holland.
Almost everyone gets travel expenses but car users get a fixed amount per mile that is not enough to cover it, public transport users just hand in their tickets for a full refund.
Remember that the entire world is NOT the US and that pre-tax amount of a salary says very little about how much you actually are getting.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Worked as the main system admin for a dot com company. I got an offer that didn't pay as much, but offered far more flexibility, 12 weeks annual vacation, and an hour shorter commute each way.
I knew that my leaving would disrupt things, so instead of the usual 2 weeks notice, I gave them 6 weeks notice. I suggested that they hire someone, and that I would act as mentor, getting him up to speed. Management decided that Unix sysadmins were a fungible commodity, and it could wait until after the hiring freeze. Two days before my 6 weeks was up, I was fired. (!) It had come to the attention of the president of the company that I was openly critical of their procurement policies. (3 signatures on 3 different forms, and two faxes to head office required to purchase a $100 network card.)
They were so afraid that I had left trapdoors that my workstation was wiped clean, and my directory wiped from the rsync servers. (We did backups every 3 hours using rsync.
Two days later I get a phone call about the setup. I told them that it was all in a 40 page document in my home directory/SysAdmin. They asked how to restore from backup tape. I told them that it was in the Admin documentation file, and that many versions of it were on the rsync server. (Once every 3 hours for the previous 24, one per day for the previous 2 weeks, one per week for the previous 2 months, one per month for the previous 6 months. Not as bad as it sounds. If a file hadn't changed, it was a hard link)
Was I interested in coming in and sorting out the mess? No, I had a new job at 3/4 of the pay, and 3 times the freedom.
Half a year later I met my replacement. He'd lasted for 3 months before he'd been laid off. He said he was on the verge of quitting when he'd been laid off. The management style hadn't changed.
Six months later, the company was a research subsidiary of EMC, and had 12 employees.
Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
You want to be loyal but you don't want to be hurt long term for it. Tell your employers your situation and give them the option of a long term employment contract. 3-5 years that includes raises, vacations, benefits, bonuses the whole bit. Be open and honest about it. From what you've said there's a very short time frame, that works in your favor. You can even tell the people you're going to work for that you have to give your current employer a chance to make it worth your while to stay because its a critical time for them.
If they say they can't get the contract done in time tell them that's not an option. Be nice, really helpful, but firm.
Have a lawyer available to quickly review the contract and make changes. Work with him to define your limits up front. Let your employer know that you understand this costs money and that you're also paying someone to expedite your response.
Chances are you'll end up working for the other company but you'll have been a stand up guy about it. You current employers will know that they had a chance to keep you and feel there (very real) participation in your choice. They could have given you a contract like that much earlier on their own initiative...
In business, loyalty without solid commitments on paper is a time bomb.
Every rule has more than one consequence.
I used to have these hangups. I got over it long ago. The truth is, even in your company they may promote you to another part of the company tomorrow. Your friends will be in the same situation. The company will do what is in their best interest, which may be to keep you right where you are for the next 10 years or more. Further your career.
Along with that, you have to do your homework. Is this really a good opportunity? Can you expect your position to be there in a year? I.e. will the company be there in a year. Just do your best guess. People at the American company Solyndra had no clue until they got their termination notice. Even the President was there recently, pumped in 1/2 billion USD. Bankupt in less than a month. That may happen where you are. I left a company in the early 1990s and 6 months later everyone else was laid off. They moved the operation from Virginia (USA) to Finland. All but I think one guy was terminated after the product was developed here and supported for years.
You do owe it to yourself to do the research and make a decision. Also, understand that the decision is yours. Don't blame anyone on slashdot, or a relative.
Best of luck
There is a great book out there called the "Further Up the Organization" that speaks pretty well about this topic. Your employers should be happy, especially if they are friends, that you have another opportunity. If they really want you around, they will match the offer or wish you the best of luck in your new adventure.
I seriously question the motives/attitude of those who have posted that the company has no loyalty to you or that you should not give a damn. The various comments that I have read here seem to be part of many companies overall downward spiral of customer service and quality goods: I want somebody who is going to be part of the organization when I talk to them on the phone, not just somebody who works there (aka, these employees are taking the employers money to give me half-assed answers to the questions I ask or service I am paying for without any desire for accountability). Anyone who does not understand this deserves the position they are in and *hopefully* has a colleague or friend rather than just another bitter bitch partner to guide them out of their selfish misconceptions. Jobs are not a right.
As for the commute, yeah that is quite a bit of time to get back, but I do sometimes miss my commute as it gave me time to read or listen to music or study or whatever. The time saved with shorter commutes always seemed to be lost and unquantifiable.
Best of luck to you.
Word!
Look, right outside your front door is good for many reasons: 1. You can have more time with your family. - Spend lunch hours with them 2. You can work an extra 30 minutes each day to get ahead and still be home more than you were when commuting. 3. You pay less in gas, so the £7k raise may actually be a £9k raise when you factor in travel costs you won't be paying. Do what is right for you and your family...think long term too.
It can be useful to look at the situation the other way around.
Let's say that the company you work for is worth $10 million. In other words, someone would have to offer the owners $10m to buy it from them. Let's further assume that the 7k increase that the new job offers you is 10% of your current salary.
Here's the question: If a potential buyer offered to pay the owners of your company an additional $1 million (10% more) if they cut some staff, including you, would they take it or would they reject it out of loyalty to you?
If they'd take the $1m and dump you then they have no loyalty to you so you owe no loyalty to them in return.
-deane