Slashdot Mirror
Florida School District Begins Fingerprinting Students
First time accepted submitter Boogaroo writes "The Washington County school district in Florida has placed fingerprint scanners at the entrance to Chipley High School. They've also made a decision to run an alternate trial by placing the scanners on buses since most kids in the district ride buses every day. Since the beginning the fingerprinting, attendance is up, but not everyone is in agreement that the costs and risks are worth the attendance boost." Aren't there simpler and less-creepy ways to count kids, like looking at empty desks?
The nannying police state creeping into all aspect of people's lives. I would pull my kids out of any school that did that. I'd bet that "attendance" isn't the primary goal of this process.
Florida students have been hiring illegal Cuban body doubles for years now.
"Aren't there simpler and less-creepy ways to count kids, like looking at empty desks?" Are you suggesting that teachers should actually get to know the kids in their classes so that they can recognize when someone isn't there? How dare you. Think of the children. I suppose next you will be saying that it is ok for teachers to talk to students outside of class or even be friends on facebook! If we allow this sort of outrageous behavior our kids may have adult figures in their lives that are actually worth looking up to!
Lets just go all out and fuck our society
If we don't use geometrics, we'll never get all the kids go to school. We should all possible means available to get them into school - finger prints, iris scans, facial recognition, penis length, vagina depth!
Getting the new generation ready for "Papers please, Comrade" and "If you go nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" society.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
I am SERIOUSLY glad I read the title correct this time.
Aw come on! Moaned CAPTCHA!
Since when was it ok for government to force you to be fingerprinted if you haven't been charged with a crime, joined the military or police, or work in some other high security facility?
It's where this is headed.
What happened to the good (not so old) rollcall
Since when was it ok for government to force you to be fingerprinted if you haven't been charged with a crime, joined the military or police, or work in some other high security facility?
Ever since schools became high security facilities, of course.
Patrol the shopping malls during the school day. Nab all the 15 year old girls who ditch class and hang out at Starbucks with their 27 year old mullet-wearing, TransAm driving boyfriends. Crack down on the 'homeschooling' moms who ditch their kids and hang out at the cocktail lounge all afternoon.
Have gnu, will travel.
We already have cops in high schools, given the principals the authority to ruin the lives of high school students on the slightest whimsy, and eroded (if not destroyed outright) any suspicion that these students nearing adulthood actually have any rights while ensuring the parents have no actual responsibility for their child's eventual success or failure.
I will point that there have been pushes to fingerprint kids in schools all over the nation for years now. Fingerprint scanners are a natural combination of this and the above. Schools are prisons and daycares now. Who needs education? Just give them a pass if they can spell their name and move on.
Wet fingers cause problems (rain, just washed your hands, etc).
Dirty fingers cause problems.
Dirty scanners cause problems.
Etc, etc, etc.
I'm thinking that this is just an excuse to spend money on "hi-tech" for the school district. Follow the money. Who's getting paid for it?
This is ridiculously unsanitary. Kids are gross, get nasty little bugs and infections. Now everyone in the school can share the same germs too. lol... just give them gps ankle bracelets like when you're on home arrest already.
but its for the children!!!
on the bus to they even have 12V power / cigarette lighters sockets on buses ?
Teacher: Eunuchswear Major?
Student: Present, sir.
Teacher: Eunuchswear Minor?
Student: Present, sir.
Teacher: Enunchswear Minimus?
Other student: Dead, sir.
Then we had sex ed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTMlZSKEu-Y&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dmonty%2Bpython%2Bsex%2Bed%2Bsketch%26ie%3Dutf-8%26oe%3Dutf-8%26aq%3Dt%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial%26client%3Diceweasel-a
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Good work freaking out the rest of the world, keep it up. Go USA.
what stops a kid from making a mold from their finger :P
The US Supreme Court has found on at least two occasions that collecting fingerprints constitutes a search, and that the government must therefor produce probable cause before being allowed to do so.
Especially when you consider that for kids under the age of 16, attendance at High School is required by law, they are now in the ridiculous position of requiring a search without probable cause for failing to break the law.
I am officially gone from
Except the parents (and I would assume any student 18 or older) have the right to opt-out of this. Thus it is not truly mandatory and thus it is not illegal.
If schools would be a little bit more fun, if you actually learn something or maybe even learn something you're interested in the pupils might consider coming to school by choice.
TFA States "Parents can still opt for their children to sign in the traditional way.". In other words, the kids are not being "forced".
I'm not sure a school can legally take a fingerprint from a kid even the police can only do so if the person in question has committed a crime. Also, what about the kids who don't use the schoolbus?
Whenever I hear a story that's crazy or just plain stupid, it typically takes place in Florida.
Makes sense, indoctrinate them from the early years.
Damn, you would make proud the Stasi, the NKVD, the KGB, the Securitate and every other past or present "security state" institutions.
Then they'll be good little consumer citizens when they're older.
Who's getting paid for it?
The school is getting paid for it.
The amount of money that they get (state/federal whatever) is directly tied to head count.
Schools are high security facilities now, haven't you heard? Some schools have better security than many prisons, and that attitude is only spreading. Bars on doors and windows, metal detectors, locker searches, I think some schools will even have strip searches on occasion (I remember hearing about just such a story on /. a while back).
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
...yet. These sort of things ARE slippery slopes. It's definitely an overly intrusive way of taking attendance.
In my country some towns do this. Policemen patrol the city, identify every young person, then contact their school to check if they have a class at the time. If they do, the policemen take them to the station, and their parents have to come for them. The same happens if the kid can't identify themselves, wich is really absurd because here you are not required to carry an ID 18, and you can't even get one 16.
Look at johny, he always has to sign in instead of a fingerprint, he must have a disease, and he signs to protect us. and then bullying begins. Alternative outcomes get worse if the parent opts out for their child. Anything different can be enough to be detrimental.
Worthless, if it's not the children who get to make the choice.
(+1, Disagree)
wouldn't be easier for that school to implant some chips or make friends on facebook?
...yet. This is the way it works - first you make it optional, then you take away the infrastructure to support any other option, then you make it mandatory claiming the other way costs too much or can't be supported anymore.
Either take the enhanced search, or go through the x-ray machine whose radiation dosage is unpublished. Good good, now be on your way citizen.
About two years ago my county [equivalent to] here in Sweden wanted to introduce finger print readers to dispense lunch plates! Apparently it was a big problem that unauthorized persons had lunch in [the wrong] schools. (Why anyone would voluntarily eat in our schools is puzzling though...)
Eventually it didn't happen.http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/10/08/1824223/florida-school-district-begins-fingerprinting-students#
People don't get it yet. They know good & well that ADULTS will balk at anything like this, as they have demonstrated during the last election. We don't want government telling us what to do, so, they enact their silly little socialist utopian ideas in the schools. Think about it. Starting with your first day of kindergarten, they have the children place their OWN school supplies in a box...a "community" box, that everyone can share, because some may not have those bla bla bla bla. Then, it's off to the cafeteria, where in some schools, you are prohibited from bringing certain snack items to school, which will be taken away because they "aren't good for you". Then, in one school, instead of parent-teachers meetings being held at the school, they want the teachers to come to your house to see how your kids act in their home environment. The fingerprinting, is done for "safety". Don't you sheep get it? They know that by the time these brainless kids are adults, they will be conditioned to accepting searches, eating "the right foods" and on and on. Listen to what the commies said when they started the whole stupid idea...“Give me just one generation of youth, and I'll transform the whole world.” Vladimir Lenin Get em while they are young, and you can have them forever Adolph Hitler pretty much said the same thing. Give me the youth of Germany, and I can rule the world. He almost got away with that! Thankfully, he was a complete moron. Wake up people...before it is too late! Around 50% of the USA gets "free stuff" from the government. When more than 50% realize they can vote to make the rest of those pay for their "free" lifestyle, this country is history.
Unfortunately, the guy who came up with this idea isn't the dimmest light bulb in the pack.
As our nation's schools "cry poor", this school district has the NERVE to waste money on a system like this? A classic case of TERRIBLE administrators, and people not wanting to be accountable. Get this ... we PAY teachers, administrators and bus drivers to keep track of the kids. Why do we even need this?
The only think this school is teaching with this system is only good for criminals ... and that is how to be finger printed. Is that the kind of future we want for our kids???
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
Neither of those held that a fingerprint is a search. They concluded that it is evidence based on "the fruit of the poisoned tree." Any evidence that is brought to light, whether it is testimony, physical evidence or otherwise, that only comes to light because of an illegal action by the police can be classified as such.
(Personally, I think it's a stupid doctrine. The person should be guilty based on the evidence, but the individuals involved in the illegal conduct should then liable to that person or their family for damages equivalent to the additional sentence imposed as a result of it.)
So finger print scanners are increasing attendance? I call bullshit. When I was in high school 13+ years ago they had this thing called attendance. Each teacher would check to see if we were in class. So once that data was compiled at the end of the day by the attendance office, it was known if you skipped a class, skipped out after half a day or the entire day. And the next day you could expect the home room teacher to send you directly to the deans office as they would be notified in the morning.
The funny thing was during my first year we had a school ID card with a bar code. It was pretty high tech for 1994 and the scanner had a slot you stuck your card into, kind of like an ATM machine. It had an LCD screen and three lights on top. If you cut class or skipped out for a day or committed any other offence to the school, the scanner would lock your card, sound an alarm and the read light would flash. School staff who monitored the clock in process would then escort those red flagged students to the deans office.
During my second year the scanners were gone. No one told us what happened but my shop teacher in senior year did. He said during the summer of 94 there were contractors working on the school and sometime during the summer the machines were stolen. They couldn't prove who did it and they couldn't convince the board of Ed to fund replacements. So after that we went back to old fashioned paper and pencil attendance which worked just as well.
And in all seriousness the school cant force kids to go. I knew plenty of kids who didn't give a shit about school and would take entire weeks or months off. They failed and either kept going and skipping class or just dropped out. If the kids don't give a shit, no fancy bio-metric scanner will make them go to class. Their parents didn't care either and probably saw the school as a free baby sitting service. The stupidity of schools never ceases to amaze me.
And that funding is based on who is enrolled, not who shows up for class each day.
And the TSA states "People can opt-out from body scanners".
Except that people who opted-out got the sexual-assault 'enhanced' pat-down.
Have you learned nothing from what went on in airports?
I don't even see what are the benefits that parents can get from making their child opt for the finger-print attendance check. The normal attendance check can be flawed (a teacher might mark your kid as present when he wasn't in class, or the teacher might even not bother to check attendance most of the time) but unless your kid has a habit of missing school everyday you have nothing to worry about. And there no more than 1 kid like that per class.
So think of the case of the TSA body scanners and remember this: these schools don't spend tons of money on finger-print scanners just to have 10% of the students use them. They most likely will find a way to discourage opting-out. And whatever way they find to discourage opting-out, it won't be pleasant and it will be unfair. Kids and parents will be coerced to use the finger-print scanners, don't doubt it.
And that funding is based on who is enrolled, not who shows up for class each day.
Is that how it works in Florida? In other states, funding is based on Average Daily Attendance. If you have 5000 students "enrolled" but only half show up every day, you only get funded for 2500 students.
Where they're always sceaming about intrusive government and their rights. Go figure. More fascism for a fascist state.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
I was completely unaware of the fact that Florida had residents under the age of 65.
They have children, too? - That means, that somewhere in Florida they also would have to have women under the age of 45-50.
if anything it will create a new generation of even better hackers.
If the search was conducted illegally, how can you trust the evidence not to have been tampered with?
So an illegal search which results in a murder conviction and lethal injection. What damages are you proposing the searcher pays? Do we need anohter court case with a jury deciding if just how much difference that search made? I predict no jury ever convicts anyone for it and the police trample rights even more than they do now.
The doctrine is fine as it is. The cost of letting a guilty person go free is far far lower than the poice ignoring the rights of the people. Said guilty person can still be convicted of any future crimes they commit anyway.
And go where? Eventually this will be mandated at private schools, and not everyone has the resources to home school.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
An interesting thought, about the illegal search thing, but I think the reasons used in US Law for dispensing with any evidence 'from a poisoned tree' so to speak has more to do with uncertainty about the validity of said evidence. Not to say the evidence will be tainted or invalid, but that if the officer could not be arsed to follow the book to obtain the evidence in the first place, the chain of evidence is tainted from the onset. Better to let 100 guilty men go free type of thing.
I got nuthin
Personally, I think it's a stupid doctrine. The person should be guilty based on the evidence, but the individuals involved in the illegal conduct should then liable to that person or their family for damages equivalent to the additional sentence imposed as a result of it.
How would this work in murder cases? The guy still goes to death row, and the infringing police are liable for the value of the man's life? You're talking about indentured servitude for cops who screw up; even the value of time in prison often comes to at least $10,000/year when it's calculated in cases of wrongful imprisonment.
Plus not all poisoned evidence comes about from clear-cut police misconduct. It seems semi-common to hear of searches being overturned in court based on simple mistakes that made them technically illegal when they were nevertheless performed entirely in good faith. It would just be another legal and financial minefield added on top of the existing ones.
Not really that stupid.
If you tell cops that illegally acquired evidence is admissible but they'll be punished for it, some of them will get the evidence even at the expense of punishment.
Their sacrifice is admirable, but this will only result in the best cops being removed from the police force. On top of that, it makes officers face a very difficult moral dilemma in which any choice they make will harm them (e.g. either they illegally get evidence against a murderer and ruin their career (and put their family through tough economical hardship in the process) or they let a murderer go free - no good person would like to face that dilemma). As a comparison, psychiatrists and even lawyers, who normally can't reveal anything about their patients/clients, are legally obligated to report future crimes their patient/client intends to commit. This isn't just for the public's safety, but also to protect psychiatrists and lawyers from facing strong moral dilemmas.
And also, mistakes happen. Cops sometimes break protocol without realizing it, which results in evidence being compromised. With your system, cops would frequently get punished for honest mistakes. It can happen much more easily than you think. For example, if a cop kicks a suspect's bag while arresting a suspect, and a gun falls out of the bag, is that a legal or an illegal search? If cops search the wrong apartment because the number plate on the door was damaged and that 8 looked like a 9, should they be punished? What if they arrest the wrong person because they had the wrong description? You might tell me that in such cases, cops should be let off the hook but the evidence still be admissible, however in such a case the police have plenty of room to abuse their authority and gather evidence illegally while passing it off as mistakes.
Somewhere along the way, the schools have been granted an exception to constitutional rights. I'm specifically thinking about the illegal search and seizures that are commonplace in schools and have been upheld by courts.
Finger scanners used by private industry are not the same as the the scanners used by police. The police scanner takes an exact picture of the fingerprint and sends it through a system which compares it with national databases. Commercial scanners do not store an exact fingerprint and therefore are not valid for identifying a person in a court of law. They take a scan of the finger and use an algorithm to reduce it to a hash. This hash is then compared with the database of other hashes to find a match. For the limited number of people who are in a school database one can be reasonably sure the the match is correct. Any duplicates are handles at registration time. It is not valid to try to match the millions in a national database. Also different companies and different versions of the same hardware that use different algorithms and can no even be compared with each other. So this is not an illegal search.
Here are my issues with some of the other comments about this system;
I doesn't always work; Dirt, water, etc interferes with the scan.
By this logic we shouldn't use computers because the power may go out. That is why one always has a backup like signing a register like they do now. To throw out a system that works 90% of the time is stupid.
Counting desks/taking attendance;
Takes time to do it. Some students may be ill so would have to check with the office. Is slow to get results. Increases paperwork when truancy officers are involved.
Nanny state.
Truancy is still a crime in the US and punishable by fines. This helps track truancy.
Here is the procedure most schools, especially elementary and middle schools, have to go through to ensure students are where they should be.
1. Take attendance
2. Compare with the list of parents who have called in to say their child will not be there
3. Call parents who's child is not there to confirm.
It is a safety issue in case the student has been kidnapped or lost. Manually, steps 1 and 2 could take a couple of hours. A computer could do it in seconds if the data was entered correctly. That time difference could mean a child's life. Finger scanners are a simple way to do this. Sorry but getting a kid to correctly punch their number into a pad is a non-starter; kids will do it wrong too many times. The scanners are also a cost saver in that a person does not have to punch all that information into a computer and the person punching the information may make mistakes. Another thing this can be used for is to automatically inform a child's truancy officer when the child is not at school.
All finger scanners are is an alternative to signing in on a piece of paper.
If you want a Florida Concealed Weapon or Firearm License you have to submit fingerprints.
If you want to put anything into a Florida pawn shop you have to give a thumb print on the contract and show photo ID
If you want to cash a check drawn on a bank you don't have an account with, you have to put your thumb print on the check, show photo ID, and pay a fee.
Probably??
Are we now so far, that even the people who are against raping the constitution have become unsure about the illegality of a full-scale 1984-style system?
And who gives a fuck about the laws anymore nowadays? They're not really related to the (way more important) values of a working human society anymore anyway. Instead they have become crimes themselves, harming most for the benefits of a few.
Good people know by themselves, that is is a crime. (And by the reaction on Slashdot, you can see that most people still are good.)
All hail those whose ancestors followed the example of Wally's ancestors.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
...for 4 years! I'm in UK school year 10 (14-15) and most of the secondary schools I know of use fingerprints for the canteen, along with a photo that pops up at the checkout, in case you, er, steal someones finger. its mainly to speed things up and you cant lose your finger easily however I seem to remember hearing that it is a checksum that is stored, so the fingerprint cannot be got out of the system
Those cases were back before the Republicans started stacking the SCOTUS with partisan hacks. If those cases were argued today, the result would yet another 5-4 decision pissing on us serfs.
"You're talking about indentured servitude for cops who screw up; even the value of time in prison often comes to at least $10,000/year when it's calculated in cases of wrongful imprisonment."
I suspect police officers would stop being overbearing individuals and actually make thoughtful decisions. You may have just created support for the idea.
We had bars on the windows installed at our junior high in 1973 -- ostensibly to prevent some of the less intelligent inmates from falling out of the windows -- bars were of such low quality they was pretty much all removed by the inmates within 3 months
the only finger that these students should give to the authorities there is the one located between the index and the ring finger.
You can't handle the truth.
Actually the reasoning behind the poisoned fruit logic is that the consequences will be such a significant impediment to prosecution so that the police won't be tempted to use illegal methods in the first place. There are exceptions (all requiring good faith errors by law enforcement)
You can bet on it - this all comes from some sales guy who convinced the school system that they had to do it for some bogus reason. He's got his commission, the school will abandon these after a little while, the taxpayers get gypped, but not in a way that most of them will notice.
This is the story of most modern government...
Personally, I think that an officer who is allowed to commit what amounts to crimes such burglary under certain conditions which justify the action should be charged with the crime that they committed if the special conditions which justify the action don't exist. I note that you mention that they should be "liable to that person or their family", which implies that you've considered the possibility that the "search" kills the "suspect". For pretty much any other profession, making a simple mistake when people's lives hang in the balance can still be a crime. For example, a wrecking crew that demolishes the wrong building would be guilty of criminal negligence in most jurisdictions, certainly manslaughter if there was someone inside. For some reason, police who get the wrong address and burst in, heavily armed, to the wrong address and kill people inside either by simply shooting them or through a heart attack, never seem to be pursued on manslaughter charges. For that matter, people never seem to wonder why, if the police had the wrong house, they had to shoot the occupants since they should only be opening fire in response to a threat.
Here are at least some day care centers where the parents are finger printed so they can enter the day care center.
And somehow it doesn't sound too stupid.
Privacy is terrorism.
Evidently not this time..
Since when was it ok for government to force you to be fingerprinted if you haven't been charged with a crime, joined the military or police, or work in some other high security facility?
Ah, have you seen a campus recently? I'd say the latter example you've provided fits pretty damn well here. It's nothing more than a high security facility with kids "working" there.
My last job had the tech dept install a fingerprint scanner (due to bad store layout mostly). Half the time the stupid thing was broken in some way.
Scanners down? Schools out!
That public schools in America are nothing more than prisons?
As well, it isn't called a "teacher" if they don't teach.
Job Security is the coercion of society: being forced by government into a mode of conduct has resulted in forced Vaccination rather than individual self-containment in private ebvironmental-suits.
Tey are only called fingerprints to the undereducated: in my courthouse, my hands and feet aren't database material but actual Court Seals that I use to seal my documents and secure property. Any other use of my Court Seals is known as counterfeiting and maintenance of unendorsed services.
The reality is that the nature of the Constitution and every corporate agency that isn't a party to that constitution: Americans and several-state nationals have all been presumed to be in violation of one of numerous of Adhesion contracts in their life and the prosecution of that is done by acknowledging a Breach of Contract. There is no law, only Breach of Contract. Consider the fact that in the Constitutions there is a unique clause that upholds Contract Law over any and all existing laws, so that should tell you right there: Americans are being forced to sign unrelated contracts throughout their lives that amount to an entire file cabinette exceeding 100lbs if they ever maintaned their competancy, but Americans don't cary their own papers thus are institutionalized by a government agency that coerces their compliance by monetary punnishment if not lack of a job and unable to pay rent and utility bills.
Americans need to burn everything to the ground, use actual common sense of association rather than Birth Certificates because the money trust fraud all starts with the Depository & Trust Company monetising their Birth Certificates to issue paper currency of future interests on demand (slavery) rather than actual existing useful product secured by private monetary titles. Americans buy drugs but allegedly hate illegal aliens they predominantly buy from, Americans drive gas-guzzling cars but hate buying oil on someone else's price-tag, Americans hate court systems yet use them to maliciously unbalance a divorce, Americans hate Income Tax yet force the brave schollars from persuing non-taxable activities exemptions to the point that Income Tax-payers get so pissed that they support every inquisitive raid.
The United States is a bunch of immigrants only living in America for a short time to get money and return to their country, and on their way out they make America the worse. All these career politicians visit every country and nation in the world, when the shit hits the fan they travel aabroad by recognition while I'm stuck in America to pay-down every problem some politician or lawyer or judge impelled and induced everyone around them into.
Abolish the administrative Tribunals that pretent to be Courthouses, and I think the problem will go away: I am treated like a sailor on land, prosecuted for being AWOL from coerced Contract Law, am imprisoned intentionally exposing me to diseases of others, harsh surroundings are not the Inns of Court that America was founded on in 1492, but the United States of 1754 was a Moorish Nation denied entry to America and captured by Freemasons in 1776 to become the United States of America to suppress the 13 States of America..
what a waste of money. with the economy already tanked below sea level, they want to waste more money and sink the economy to the ocean floor just for this thing?
Just have them punch a clock like workers do, in this case it could be a central computer in the class, or a sign in sheet, or....gee what about "roll call" or is reading the names of today's youths to difficult?
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Children cannot legally consent so their choices are already limited. I don't see how this is any different than the multitude of other choices children don't get to make and are instead chosen by their parents for them.
Parents have the choice because they can bind their kids. The kids cannot bind themselves.
If we really want it to stop, we will keep the poisoned tree doctrine AND prosecute involved police for their actions exactly as anyone else unless they can show they acted in good faith (in which case we just toss the illegal evidence). That is, charge them with breaking and entering and burglary. Since a search would be illegal and police never have a duty to break the law, it could only have been a private act of the individuals involved.
Currently, in defiance of abundant evidence to the contrary, we just presume the good faith.
The poison tree doctrine is based on the strong principle that nobody should profit from breaking the law, not even the police.
I'm thinking that this is just an excuse to spend money on "hi-tech" for the school district. Follow the money. Who's getting paid for it?
I don't know about Washington, but here in California, schools get paid based on how many students show up. The party that stands to gain financially here is probably the school district, because they're hoping it will increase attendance.
Find free books.
So you're arguing that all five of the current justices nominated by conservative presidents are "party hacks" through and through? You don't think that's a bit of an overstatement, not to mention just as partisan and self-righteous as any Republican?
Why not use RFID?
So happy that I moved my family out of US 2 years ago!
Here in Switzerland the system is very efficient and low tech. The teacher has no more than 20 kids in the class. The teacher knows the kids and the families. If your kid is not in the classroom, the teacher just gives you a call to see what is the problem...simple, infalible, cheaper than scanners (although you have to invest to have small classes). Attendance is a very serious issue here, kids can only have 10 unjustified absences in the entire primary school. On top of all that, I love that humanity touch, personal trust between teacher, student and family is the key for a great education.
Until you're 18 you don't have rights, you have privileges. If parents don't like public education and the rules to attend they can go to a private school or home school. This is why it is important to defend both those options and make them as available as possible.
Work Safe Porn
It's shocking to me how many people are so bent out of shape about this.
This is a capitolistic society. If you don't like it, go elsewhere.
But don't forget, schools have two major responsibilities: make sure kids attend school (by law), and make sure kids excel at school (see previous); whether it's a computer or a person, someone or something is keeping track of where your child is at school and how often they aren't there (because they have to).
Is fingerprinting the best option? I don't know, that's what I expected people in a "tech" community to discuss (especially when non-tech related political discussions outrage so many who visit here), not about how doing the same thing school's have always done (keep track of student attendance) is turning the world into a communist wasteland.
So, can someone post something objective and relevant so I can get back to what I was doing?
Jelly Babies, or other such gelatin based products google it.
They ruled that money is equivalent to speech, and corporations deserve all the rights of actual human beings. They issued this ruling, overturning a near century of precedent, because it benefited their party in an upcoming election. Even the plaintiffs that "won" the case hadn't asked for such a ruling -- the so-called "justices" ordered them to go back and re-argue the case for no reason other than to give them an excuse to issue the ruling they had already decided on. Only an absolute fool could fail to recognize just how corrupt they are.
What was our job again? Oh, right. Kids... in a few years they aren't our responsibility anymore, so who gives a crap.
I for one applaud the Government educating our children on the techniques and technologies required to circumvent finger-print scanners, I'm sure such skills will be much sought-after in the future.
OF course, don't you know this is actually a part of the deliberate manipulation of society by The FBI/CIA/DHS/DEA/(insert-other-acronym-here). If every child in the country ias to swipe an appendage against the same physical location *and then are unable to suitably clean their hands* I'm sure the next news will be the FBI "discovering" that terrorists are plotting to bio-infect school scanners to kill off our children. Or more likely it will be that an entire town has been infected with an unknown virulent pathogen and The President has authorised the use of nuclear weapons in the interest of National Security.
Insert DHS field-day here, Rights- what rights? You Have The Right To Remain Patriotic - what MORE could anyone want?
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVPrw6E4icE&feature=related Always loved that scene when they play 'Low Rider' ( cue to 58:50 ) 'It's not donut jelly so don't eat it. Elvis is back' :)
Also what if you burned off all your prints like IIRC they did in Seven. Claim it as a campfire or BBQ accident.
One real world example; say you want to be a foster parent? In at least one state you have to get printed so they can check for priors etc. I didn't like it but this is not terribly unreasonable since you have vulnerable kids involved -- yeah "think of the children" but drop the sarcasm on this one. Foster parents sometimes get a bad wrap because of the vanishingly small percentage of really horrible ones -- there are many people who are really and honestly committed to providing a safe and caring home for kids that have been screwed over by their parents.
The kids might as well be used to it. At 18, they will be fingerprinted for real, as they need to serve their time in jail so stock in private corrections companies can hold firm.
In IL, it is (was?) worse. Funding is based on the headcount on the first day of the schoolyear.
So which company got the contract for these scanners?
How much communication was had between the owner of said company and those in charge of the decision to use them?
How much of a kick-back was given to the people who enacted this?
Was a vote done at the state or even city level?
What's next? DNA swaps for all kindergarteners?
I thought Florida was a Republican state and home of the Tea-Baggers, all of which want less government intrusion. This just goes to show you how stupid these groups are for letting this get enacted. It's all further proof that these parties are made up primarily of racists and classists. Looking at a breakdown of the school district it looks like plenty of minorities and a lot of poor people. A quick search tells me that >45% of children in the school district qualify for free lunch.
I think the saddest thing is that investigative journalism has taken a back-seat to fluff that's just there to keep the citizenry fighting amongst themselves.
If even one local paper started to investigate this and report on the findings, they'd surely find criminality on the part of the ones responsible for enacting this draconian invasion of privacy, and the parents would be in an absolute uproar. But then, exposing the greed and corruption wouldn't appease the media outlets advertisers, who are the sole group the media cares about.
Florida, LOL... the new Alabama.
How about making school more enjoyable so that the students actually want to learn. I think lack of attendance is more a reflection upon the faculty than it is on the students.
I'm not going to mod you down, because I think you have some valid points. You should be aware, though, that from the way you write, you sound a bit crazy. Don't capitalize random words. Say the point you want to make first. Then give your examples, and explain them if necessary. If you work to sound more rational, people will take your points more seriously.
To put it another way: if people think you're crazy, they'll ignore everything you say. If your goal is to make a difference, you have to not sound crazy.
Sure they are, the kids aren't the ones that are getting to opt out, it's their parents that are doing it. You're argument is that because it's not the state that's forcing the kids that the kids aren't being forced. Which is just ridiculous.
All this is going to do is create a new league of criminal prowess in the rising generation. People always look for ways to cheat the system. I know if I was one of those kids I would look for any way possible to cheat that system. I would try again and again and again until I found a way to skip school. Its going to make kids like that become super criminals that will learn new ways to beat new technology. This will be interesting to see.
Then when it comes to everyone else, we will see that part of the rising generation will be totally compliant and wont ever ask questions about extreme measures such as this...
Interesting times we live in, but in the end, the people will always find a way to beat the system...
Schools have previously been held to the lower standard of reasonable suspicion rather than probable cause in order for them to conduct their searches.
But I'd make a guess that the school board could argue successfully that it is an administrative search and thus not subject to a warrant anyway. Whether or not you, or actual jurists, would find it legal is another matter. I guess I just have that little faith in the US legal system.
I smell conservative ID'ing of anchor babies.
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
to get a calif drivers license, you must give a fingerprint. has been that way for at least 15 years now.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I can't say I agree with the decisions, but no one who's lived in Florida can say they didn't see this coming.
Schools here seem to be going in the direction of privatization. Current plans have whole-school futures pegged on the results of their english test scores. Music, math, etc... all funding hinging on a single subject, which is just a mechanism to make the schools look bad so they can push for closing the public schools. Once the schools go private, parents won't have a choice but to give up their kids' rights in order to get them into school. It's going to be a matter of contract.
Sure, there will be public schools left, but they're not gonna be in nearly the same shape as they are now. And they're not exactly in good shape now. With the funding going towards vouchers for private schools, we'll see safety and standards continue to drop. Private schools will be allowed to take all the disciplinary action public schools can't which will make them seem like cathedrals next to their public bretherin. Your kid get slapped? You have a problem with it? You really wanna send them to *gasp* public school?
Can't really blame them either. A number of my friends are teachers. They get attacked (yes, ATTACKED) by students that are sometimes bigger than them, and they are explicitely told that they cannot raise a hand to stop a student that's attacking them. They are expected to take everything a student has to dish out for fear that any other behavior will get them fired.
Parents are a whole nother problem. Most of them get upset when schools bother them during the day about their kids. The ones that do care about their kids really only care about their kids being happy. They often will refuse to believe that there could be anything wrong with their kid and will refuse to discipline them at all. When their kid fails a class they'll take it up with the principle and create such a fuss that the teacher is forced to pass the student on when they shouldn't. A number of teachers have become apathetic about the whole process, but who can blame them when they're paid hardly anything to deal with seemingly psychopathic children on a daily basis.
Fingerprinting may be a really bad decision, and I certainly wouldn't want my kid going through that. But given the way parents here treat the schools, it almost seems like the only way to make sure students are where they're supposed to be. When it's all private, we won't have a choice because the state isn't doing it. And if you want your kid to have a decent education, you'll put up with it.
..the finger prints that is. Give the kid a pumice stone and get them in the habit of using it on a regular basis to sand their finger tips.
I also like the idea of following the money to see who got what and how much. There are plenty of school ID card system out there that could have been used for this instead of using finger prints.
Since 9/11, duh!
Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
Could you summarize some of his points, please? I'm not going to read this wall of text, certainly not as tired as I am right now.
(+1, Disagree)
I was fingerprinted to work at a state-owned hospital. Yes, really.
Aren't there simpler and less-creepy ways to count kids, like looking at empty desks?
Yes, but it would require teachers to actually give half a shit.
Once you have a generation that's indoctrinated to accept the state's use of fingerprint scanners, there's no end to the possibilities. It's an open door for a national biometrics database. Once again, Philip K. Dick's work seems prescient. Think Minority Report, the movie, and recall the ubiquitous use of iris scanners, from the high security installation where the 'precogs' were kept to the retail clothing store where the friendly, helpful holographic store greeter 'knew' your identity, your shopping habits and your most recent purchases. Why because there is, "no presumption of privacy," when you are ANYWHERE in a public space.
What I find truly disconcerting is the idea that the Florida public schools seem to be entrusted with digital dossiers that include the fingerprints of all of its students. Currently, it's illegal to leave the security of health records unprotected, but the bar for establishing liability a security breach is all but none-existent. Thus, we regularly read about the loss of theft of millions of HIPAA 'protected' health records, but very rarely is there much, if any, penalty incurred by the offending institution, from the federal government to some of the largest insurance companies (pause for ironic gasp!) to your local hospital.
But you can change your password, PIN or account number more easily than some people change their underwear. What happens when peoples' digital fingerprints and iris scans are available lost, stolen or otherwise mishandled by those responsible for their use? Will there be a market for eye transplants? Can you replace the portion of your integumentary system responsible for generating your fingerprints? What's next, a black market for genetic identification therapy?
I say 'chip' em all and get it over with... I want to be alive when the first Presidential candidate has to explain the lapses in his grade schools attendance record. GPS tracking and parental access to classroom video streaming are next, unless of course you can afford a private education or a public school student proxy.
Personally I think it's a system both showing distrust in teachers and being talked into buying a bit of silicon snake oil. I agree that kickbacks are likely but the system has to be broken in some way before it would be considered kickbacks or not.
It's probably more aimed at the teachers than students and is some petty like game of diminishing teachers responsibility to provide ammunition in wages negotiations and provide a tracking system for when teachers go on strike and the students get babysat by others.
Pointless rubbish anyway destined to fail in many ways. Name badges with a bar code and bar code scanners or many other systems cheaper than fingerprints would work far better than silicon snake oil sold to people that are getting their ideas from the movies.
Consider this: Little Johnny has the flu, and wipes his nose with his finger (hey, he's a kid, they do gross things). He then puts his finger on the scanner. Little Suzy comes along after him, puts her finger on the scanner, and picks up a nice little viral present left behind by Johnny (being a kid she also doesn't think to wash her hands afterward).
Repeat for 100+ kids, and the viral / bacterial load on the scanner would be a pathologists dream.
You can learn a lot about a person if you just take the time to inject them with sodium pentathol
however I seem to remember hearing that it is a checksum that is stored, so the fingerprint cannot be got out of the system
Oh, you only have the manufacturers word for *that* and, of course, we all know that the are really not capable of running their entire database of fingerprints (known and not) through the same checksumming algorithm to do a bit of database matching..
Privacy Pro Active New World Order BUNG
Don't worry, over time old Republicans start looking like Democrats without changing their views at all. Nixoncare would have been far more radical than anything Obama dared to try to introduce.
I remember when I was in the 2nd or 3rd grade (late 80's), there was an assembly at my grammar school, Woodmere in SE Portland, Oregon. All (or most) of the kids were there.. at least a bunch of my classmates, that I noticed.. They fingerprinted all the kids. It seemed like a normal thing, we didn't know any better... I forget exactly what it was for, but I think it was for some sort of police related thing?
Anyways... fingerprinting kids at school has been done for years, is all I'm sayin'.
-AC
Name badges with a bar code and bar code scanners or many other systems cheaper than fingerprints would work far better than silicon snake oil sold to people that are getting their ideas from the movies.
While I think the idea of fingerprint scanners is pretty scary, if the idea is to increase attendance (rather than keeping people out), name badges wouldn't work without a physical person present either.
One student shows up with five other students' name badges and scans them in.
Why would any child or parent object to fingerprinting?
Coercion and regimentation in government schools is just the *real world*, to wit:
Riding buses of a kind that nobody else rides except in prison or at boot camp, painted a special DOT color that other vehicles are not allowed to use, that travel under special traffic rules that nobody else is allowed to use.
Eating food provided by the government, served in a facility with famously odd personnel, none of which would be patronized if offered to people as a free choice.
Forced to endure unwanted company that inflicts physical assaults and social harassment that would be criminal or tortious if acted by adults.
Required to submit to government employees who are 100 percent unionized and paid twice what they're worth in the free market, who work 3/4 of each day for 3/4 of the year. (For those of you who learned public school math, that's 3/4 x 3/4 = 9/16, or about a half time job for double a full time annual wage.)
Etc.
The real world?
I for one applaud the Government educating our children on the techniques and technologies required to circumvent finger-print scanners, I'm sure such skills will be much sought-after in the future.
It's a good age to teach kids how to spoof biometrics. By the time these techniques are mandatory for the general public most people will be past that age where you easily grok new technology. By forcing every generation to learn it in school, you guarantee the skillset will be widely available when needed.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
.. cuts his hand off to avoid class.
"Hey Tom, take this with you to school, will ya?"
I thought the idea was to get kids to want to go to school and you know, teach them stuff.
So they've got nifty new finger scanners, how are their math textbooks doing?
There's a quote from an administrator saying the previous attendance system wasn't working well. No details. No way to figure out what problem this is supposed to solve, and how.
It's easy enough to take attendance in homeroom. Teacher signs in to his computer and the homeroom list is there. Kids are present by default so Teach doesn't spend more than a moment checking off the kids who aren't there, and then submits the form. Done.
Office staff run a report five minutes after the start of homeroom. If any teacher hasn't taken attendance then she gets a reminder. Office staff have been getting calls from parents for half an hour before homeroom started, so as soon as they have the report they're ready to see which kids were marked absent by the teachers (must call parents to verify) vs marked absent by office staff (parent has already contacted the school).
No fingerprints. Human-based facial recognition technology is probably quite a bit more accurate, doesn't spread germs in most cases and rarely raises questions of citizen rights.
Apart from the total lack of detail in the news story, the reporter managed to spell "buses" right and then blew on "isles".
there should be licensing and mandatory parenting classes before being allowed to spawn... Florida is host to millions of feral latch-key miscreants who cause untold millions in property damages and ever-higher law enforcement costs - fingerprinting? this is more of an alibi mechanism than truancy enforcement
you think the school district bought that scanner? or thier getting paid to use it? the only real way of finding out is getting someone that works for that school discrict, in that department, that will say it like it is. personally, i think they may have paid a lil for it, but are paid to use it. just like every other aspect of human life, rights are being sold, everythings for sale, and the rights of kids is cheapest. remember, this is for the children....
Are they fingerprint readers (true image storage) or they scanners ( run a checksum or hash on image of prints and store it to verify students id)
Think (and get more info) before the tin-foil hats come out please
How much do fingerprints change with age? Is this a way of fingerprinting the entire population (that attends school at some point)? It's kind of brilliant. Fingerprint everyone under the auspices of 'attendance monitoring'. Relinquish the database to police when requested ...
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
Frankly we already know that certain schools in the state are designed as dumping grounds to discourage kids and get them out of the system. It is sort of understood that if we could wave a wand and convert the child to a scholarly and business like attitude that the neighborhood will sweep him into a life of crime and drugs anyway and even if he survives that the chances of reasonable employment are dim. So it must just be efficiency. Pre finger print him for his probable career in the jails. We can use his year book photo for booking purposes. Look at it this way. Cleaning toilets and windows at McDonalds for eight bucks an hour won't buy you wheels and the girls won't touch you. Whereas slinging dope as a yo boy on the corner will earn you a lot of cash and the ladies go crazy if you have the stash. It is just a sign of intelligence. Get the ladies and get the cash and have a ball. Old age isn't much fun and getting gunned down doesn't matter as long as you are over 22 as life really ends by then anyway.
It's frightening that you think "we", the victims, make these desicions. Listen to yourself: as a vitcim, you're angry with the oppressors (and rightly so), but then you go and blame yourself for the crime! How in the world of logic can one be both the oppressor and the oppressed (the attacker AND the victim) at the same time?
WOW, Kewel!
All they need now is for someone to hack the database and the children's fingerprints become useless for identification for life. Fingerprint scanners can be fooled but changing one's fingerprints is a bit more difficult.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Well, what where they really installed for if not to prevent people from falling out?
Not to mention I can think of a few pranks that involve super glue....
Funny, but while the Soviet Union existed USA was synonymous with freedom but now I'd be hard pushed to see the difference between the USA's current invocation and that of its former foe. Sad so sad.
What this says to me is that in Florida, the schools are really bad at keeping track of kids and have to rely on exotic and controversial measures that the vast majority of the country doesn't use. The alternatives I can take away from this are that this is all about money or they are just passing off responsibility onto machines.
Since precedent has already been set by the Supreme Court, why would new cases for the same thing go back there? Any good lawyer arguing for the rights of the children could cite the previous ruling and win the case easily in any lower court. And doesn't the Supreme Court have better things to do than accept something they have already ruled on?
So? Ok, depending on the scanner technology used and the technical inclination of the student, you can also fool a fingerprint scanner. You basically need someone to overlook the actual scanning. I ask myself why the good old list and call names does not work? Sometimes the good old technology still works better than the wizz bang Hi-Tech; like pen and paper for note taking...
Not to get in the way of your rant, but I wouldn't mind seeing a reliable source to back up those claims.