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Samsung Lawyer Fails To Differentiate iPad and Galaxy Tab In Court
Several readers sent in a story that's sure to be embarrassing for Samsung. The company has been involved in a drawn-out patent dispute with Apple over similarities between the Galaxy Tab and the iPad. Today, during a court session, U.S. District Judge Lucy Koh held up both objects and asked one of Samsung's attorneys whether she could identify which was which. The attorney replied, "Not at this distance, your honor." The distance was roughly 10 feet. The judge then quizzed the rest of Samsung's lawyers. After a brief hesitation, one of them was able to correctly identify the Galaxy Tab.
Two rectangular slabs are supposed to be perfectly distinguishable at 10 feet? Perhaps Apple wants Samsung to make round tablets. How bout trapezoidal? I'm sure that's not patented...
Black slate of plastic with rounded corneers, like every other tablet on the market. Its like trying to identify between name brand and generic cereal by looking at a bowlfull.
That way you have a 50% chance of not being embarrassed.
No matter how you feel about patents, Apple, or Samsung, this is funny.
Also lots of phones look similar, lots of cars look similar, lots of TVs look similar, lots of computers look similar, lots of monitors look similar...
Who cares?
How about turning them on? The one that works is a Samsung.
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I wonder if the results would have been any different had the Judge allowed the lawyers to see all 360 degrees of the device, and not just the front. Something tells me the SAMSUNG logo emblazoned on the device would assist in differentiating it from the iPad.
iPad 2 - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UTeQhQcvdNU/TPGrM-2_lVI/AAAAAAAAF20/U7xNqZ0as4s/s1600/things-about-apple-ipad-2.jpg
Galaxy Tab - http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UTeQhQcvdNU/TProAcaIpnI/AAAAAAAAF5M/wtS26PrDbeU/s1600/Samsung-Galaxy-Tab-4.jpg
Can you tell the difference?
:(){
I can't tell the difference between a Honda and a Toyota 9 times out of 10, and I drive a Honda. If my GF didn't have a sun roof, and there was no hood ornament, I'd have absolutely no way of distinguishing her silver Corolla from the neighbors silver Civic. What exactly is this supposed to prove?
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...That's the real story here.
Myself, I can't tell the difference between an iPad and a windows 98 tablet computer at ten feet.
And at fifty feet, you could be holding an etch-a-sketch for all I know. I mean seriously, how much detail do you want me to discern from a nearly featureless slab of plastic?
This whole Apple V samsung debate really bothers me. Everyone here knows we need (proper) patent reform across the board. I hate trivial patents, patent trolling, and software patents....but there's just something about Apple being able to keep samsung from selling tablets because their tablet is, *gasp* a rectangular touch screen. Why aren't LCD monitor companies fighting each other in court? Many monitors look the same with trivial differences. All these tablets are are screens with a little computer on the back. I mean jesus christ, what a fucking waste of time and effort.
As others have pointed out, that's a terrible test. I can't tell apart a pair of toasters or TVs or refrigerators unless the brand logo is visible. That doesn't mean they're all infringing, it just means that form follows function. But this judge wanted a bad ass moment like what you'd see on Law and Order.
is now higher. Or not.
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Because we all know the usual using distance for using these things is 10 feet.
Anyone who is using the device, planning on buying the device, or even examining the device (it doesn't even need to be on) can tell the difference.
If there are people dumb enough to fork out a few hundred euros/dollars to buy an item without looking at the stats, an image, the box, the brand or the company is a giant idiot. Which is why when buying these sorts of things the standard protocol is to stand less than 10 feet away.
The fiesta is not a hybrid.
As a person who doesn't care about cars, I have no clue what you're talking about. Now a car is about 20 times bigger than an iPad (perhaps more.) So can you tell the difference between your two cars at 10*20 = 200 feet?
That said, too many companies are trying to copy the superficial look and feel of each other's hardware. Even though that has little to do with the underlying functionality, its asking to be sued.
Have gnu, will travel.
And if Apple wins this, what happens when they next try to market something that has the same general shape and color of someone else product?
They set a precedent. Hope they can live with it.
Apple has patents covering their design. This is what the judge is saying. The Galaxy clearly violates Apple's patents, but Apple still needs to prove that their patents are valid (Samsung claimed several instances of prior art, Apple has to show that those cases would not violate their patent).
The question isn't which one is which. The question is, can you reliably tell them apart?
Can you always point to the bigger of the two? Good, you can tell them apart.
Which one is which brand is irrelevant, and I think less of the judge of not realizing this.
I'm sure that they are easily distinguishable from the back.
Also, they are distinguishable where they are sold: Apple Store or !Apple Store.
And no doubt distinguishable by price.
But most of all, they are distinguishable by the operating system they run. You either want to be in the Apple ecosystem (aka Walled Garden) or you don't. And you should be able to buy the tablet of your preference based on this fact. This whole lawsuit is as anti-consumer as it gets because Samsung isn't producing iPads. While they may still be producing the CPU of the iPad, the Samsung product is not an iPad and can't replace an iPad because it doesn't run Apple iPad software. So Apple is trying to kill a product that doesn't directly compete with the iPad because if you want an iPad than no substitute will do.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
then, the judge help up to 21" monitors, and asked the lawyers to identify them
and then, 2 washing machines
and then, 2 cars
and then, 2 keyboards
and then, 2 cameras
and then, 2 non-smart phones
and then....
Somewhere in the process, a point has been proven. Not the intended one, though ?
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I hope you can tell toilet paper rolls apart from 10 feet.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Of course a bunch of idiot lawyers couldn't tell the difference but ask any technologically inclined person to tell the difference and they would easily do so.
The judge asks for a layman's opinion because the layman is the market.
This kind of demonstration is the bread and butter of trial work. You need be prepared for it because it is going to happen.
Do you here that noise, thats the whooshing sound that just went past you're head.
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Neither product is designed to be used from 10 feet away. The test should be how similar they appear at the actual distance they are used, i.e. arm's length.
For something to be funny, it has to be based in truth... an Android tablet having run out of power rings far more true than the iPad having failed for some reason.
But part of the point of the lawsuits is that even on, most would be hard pressed to tell them apart...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Wasn't the whole point of Apple's case was that Samsung's device is too similar in appearance to the iPad and that consumers are likely to confuse the two? Now it would help Samsung's case if Apple's lawyers couldn't tell an iPad from a TouchPad from a Xoom from a HP Slate.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
The real here deal is that Apple's design patents are completely bogus.
It's amazing to me to what extremes people can go to justify their tribes. Here we have college educated people who's job it is to show the differences in the products not being able to recognize their own product. If these people can't tell the difference from a reasonable distance then the general public 10' away in Starbucks sure the hell isn't going to.
It's patently obvious (har har) that Samsung set out to clone iPad, the packaging, the icons, the charger, the IO port, etc. They're going to lose these cloning suits and for good reason.
It's sad that Microsoft is now one of the more morally upstanding corporations (by comparison only) in the industry. At least they create things and with Zune, WP7, etc they do it their own unique way instead of just blindly copying like Google (copying the OS) and Samsung (copying the product).
http://peanutbuttereggdirt.com/e/custom/Apple-vs-Samsung-1-Hardware-Design.html
http://peanutbuttereggdirt.com/e/custom/Apple-vs-Samsung-2-Interface-Icons.html
http://peanutbuttereggdirt.com/e/custom/Apple-vs-Samsung-3-Package-Design.html
Apple's "design patent" is not about any single property (like the famous "rounded rectangle") but about the combination of all of these.
I know it's been said, but the different pickups are easy to tell apart. If you were a lawyer working on a case involving the look of these trucks, there's practically no way you would get it wrong if a judge asked you.
The iPad 2 copied features from the Samsung Galaxy Tab, like the front-facing camera and the rear facing camera. If Apple can keep Samsung from selling rectangular tablets, then Samsung should be able to keep Apple from selling tablets with front and rear cameras.
A few people, all of them lawyers is not a way to decide whether two objects look the same. You would need hundreds of people with different backgrounds for a representative study. But even if the two devices looked exactly the same, it's still just a fucking rectangle.
It's quite embarrassing that the lawyers can't tell them apart. Working for a company that routinely develops on both iPad and the Galaxy Tab, there are a few clear distinctions that are obvious to anyone who has used both products:
- The iPad has one physical button on the front, the Galaxy Tab has no physical buttons on the front
- The iPad has a smooth metal back, the Galaxy Tab has a brushed metal back
- The iPad charges from the short-edge, the Galaxy Tab charges on the long edge (alright, no so obvious)
Although these may be minor differences, they should be obvious to anyone who's reasonably familiar with both products, especially if they're fighting a patent suit. Have the lawyers even done the most basic research?
"Design Patent" implies there's something distinctive about the design, or at least some ornament that distinguishes one company's product from those of its rivals, like the shape of the Coca-Cola bottle. One of the requirements for a design patent is that the patented design can't be an part of the object's function (i.e, you can't patent the shape of a gear). In the case of the iPad and the Galaxy Tab (and the Microsoft Tablet PC that preceded them both) the form *is* the function - that's what makes it a tablet. Unless the Tab copied the button layout and the proportions (which it didn't), there's no actual IPinfringement.
The real issue here is Apple using the courts to stifle competition so they can keep their monopoly.
Samsung Galaxy: http://bub.blicio.us/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Samsung-Galaxy-Tab.jpg
Apple iPad: http://areacellphone.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/best_ipad_texting_app.jpg
(1) The two have different width to height ratios.
(2) The Apple iPad has a single concave button in the middle of one of its bezel sides.
(3) The UI is noticeably different
(4) The Samsung Galaxy looks to have a user-facing camera.
Maybe they should have asked a prospective buyer. You know? The people the matter...
It's not surprising that 95% of the posts here boil down to iFans arguing with Android zealots - but I think they're missing the key point.
You'd think a Samsung lawyer would be well-versed enough in the fundamental differences between the two products (such as the aspect ratio) so as not to get tripped up by this question. People here made fun of an earlier Photoshop job, apparently put forth by an European Apple lawyer, where they'd changed the ratio on an image of the Galaxy Tab so it matched that of the iPad. Since it's come up before - why couldn't the lawyer tell the difference between the two when they were side by side?
#DeleteChrome
It's only a matter for the courts if that other product has a design patent covering it.
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Just wait until one explodes or catches on fire.
That's the Samsung.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
> The distance was roughly 10 feet.
If 10 feet are 100m that would be quite understandable.
OTOH, if 10 feet are 1m then it would be a serious hindrance to Samsung's defense.
PS: I could do the conversion but I'm old -- and I'm talking on behalf of young Americans, since the USA already adopted the SI. They could have a hard time in understanding obscure units, unless of course they were exposed to braindamaged articles with said idiotic units.
10 feet is approx 3.3 meters.
Except in Bahrain and Lapland.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
and I did lots of machine-level coding. :-(
Made a few weeks ago: http://www.bonkersworld.net/obvious-similarities/
Everyone is going to the kneejerk, you can't (or shouldn't) patent the basic shape of a tablet.
That isn't what is going on.
Samsung clearly set out to completely clone Apples products, HW, Interface and even the packaging.
In this case, I do agree that Samsung crossed a line.
http://osxdaily.com/2011/08/18/tablet-design-before-after-the-ipad/
In this case it appears that form followed Apple...
How can Samsung be so ill equipped at defending themselves, One quick google search and I can find prior art made by Samsung that looks exactly like the ipad yet was released by samsung 4 years prior to the ipad 1 http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/09/samsung-digital-picture-frame-stores-pics-movies-music/ Front on display (like the court case) this looks exactly like an ipad, dimension wise it could be rather different, but apple isn't complaining about the size are they? Its the look and feel they 'claim' to have developed.
Riiiight.... I'm not gonna argue os here, just hardware.
So, let's back up a bit here. What did 'smartphones' look like before the iPhone? Various screen sizes, clunky thinkness/form factor and a alpha numeric keyboard of some sort. We all know history, iPhone comes along, all touch based and it sets the precedent for things to come. Apple invented that. No one else did, especially not Samsung.
Then the iPod Touch follows about 8 months after. Note around this time, if you search everywhere on the web, for Samsung's tablets or anyone else's (like Archos, etc) all look like something between a Sony PSP and a Nokia 770. Yes, all rectangle, but just not the Apple glass touchscreen with a black bezel and metal band around the edge.
Now, few years later, Apple extrapolates out the form of *their* invention for a natural progression, the iPad. Somewhere in between all this, patents are filed for how the device looks and functions. Note: form + function == *design*! Apple purposefully designed their device. Their physical thing. They didn't copy a HP TabletPC or Sony Ericsson or Nokia. They made their own design and they popularized it and people loved it. Go back to 2010 and look at the Samsung Vibrant. Glass front, no keyboard, black bezel, chrome border. Hmm, I've seen that before somewhere in 2007.. Galaxy Tab, same thing.
Now, let's look at the packaging of a Galaxy Tab. White box, picture of device on it. Gee, where have I seen that? Open it up, same unpacking experience as the iPad/iPhone - device up front, other stuff underneath. Btw, Apple patented their packaging - all the way back in 2007! And speaking of packaging, even Samsung's USB charger adapters look like Apple's, except, get ready for it - they're black and not white. Looking at the USB cable, same. Black not white, but same connectors on both ends.
If you want more evidence of rip off, search around the web a few weeks ago for the picture of the Samsung store. Look hard - pictures of Apple's app store and Safari icons on the wall. That's pretty blatant - even Microsoft doesn't do that (altho they did have a lot of pc ads with Mac laptops, but anyway). After all this, in my mind, it's pretty clear that Samsung would rather copy, on multiple levels, one of the most successful brands out there instead of paving their own way. Plain and simple. They're also damaging the Android ecosphere with all this crap. Android needs to have devices for it that push the envelope, not copy designs years old.
This whole Samsung copying thing goes way deeper than just the 'rectangular touch screen'. It crosses multiple products and up to physical storefront. It is undeniable that it's rip off. Plain and simple. Patents do need to be reformed, but this is not an example of it in my mind as it has nothing to do with software, where the real ridiculous shit is goin on.
id say "Your honor this is not a trademark or copyright lawsuit its a patent lawsuit. Apple is attempting to reargue Apple vs Microsoft trying to shoehorn under patent law what it was unable to do under copyright law. Its trying to reargue "look and feel" . How many ways can you express a black rectangular touchscreen computer? So You cant tell them apart at 10 feet...so what? Most tablet users do not use a 10 inch screen 10 feet away. "
"Apple's senior barrister Stephen Burley asked Justice Annabelle Bennett to prevent Samsung from selling any "tablet device" during the injunction period."
Taken from:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-14/samsung-free-to-launch-another-tablet/3572318
To sum up the Judge told them to piss off and be happy with the injunction as it is until the real case comes up.
The law is not there to merely be a business tool to stifle competition. There was a tablet market before Apple even if it was a small one, and keeping others out unconditionally is unfair.
It's a pity Australia can't reverse the incredibly fucking stupid US patent laws we adopted as part of the "free trade" agreement - that one where for instance the USA can export beef or products containing beef to Australia but it's forbidden the other way (same with sugar, steel, wheat and a few other protected industries).
I'd like permission to treat my counsel as a hostile witness...
what it looks like close up, because they can't get one due to the injunction.
I think the lawyers should hold up a white iPad and a 10-inch Samsung LCD and see if the judge can tell which is which.
And also consider - how many ways can you make a tablet computer? There's a limit to design look when you go for the minimalist look that both have.
Of course Samsung could have elected to use two buttons instead of one or something. Or a golden embossed border on their device.
However - how can anyone expect a lawyer to have any kind of technical expertise or attention to physical detail? They are probably using all their time to come up with new legal twists and figure out how to run up the bills the best way.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
that's equally nonsensical, is it equally funny?
there are laws against copying look & feel for products in general, with explicit exclusions only for some markets. Computing devices isn't one of the exclusions.
B: It's lame. Have some frickin self-respect, Samsung.
I'm pretty sure that there's precedent that you cannot patent the "look" of something you made, except to the extent that the form factor actually directly contributes to the invention's utility.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
It's called a design patent.
The reason they can't be distinguished is because tablets are completely generic and shouldn't be patentable anyway.
Asking someone to differentiate between two tabs is like asking to differentiate between two different sheets of toilet paper. They all look the same, because they are generic.
If they make round tablets then they could get a killer product placement in the sequel to Tron Legacy.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine