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GM, NHTSA Delayed Volt Warnings To Prop Up Sales
Lauren Weinstein excerpts the most interesting part of a BBC story about the safety hazards associated with the Chevy Volt — specifically, the risk that its battery pack could catch fire after even a minor impact. While it might be unsurprising that GM was reluctant to shout out safety warnings that would dampen early sales of its much touted hybrid, according to the linked story the NHTSA was as well, and for the same reason: "Part of the reason for delaying the disclosure was the 'fragility of Volt sales' up until that point, according to Joan Claybrook, a former administrator at NHTSA."
Can't have the Government criticizing a Government Motors product now, can we? Especially if it's GREEN!
RIP once more, electric car. Dig you up in 20 years once the fallout of this conspiracy washes away. :-(
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Volt sales have been far below expectations. GM badly bungled the execution of this vehicle, making a tin-can low quality econobox into a $40K car that nobody wants. Really, did anyone expect otherwise from GM? Just wait for the real cars of this type from Toyota, Nissan (leaf) and others, and you won't have to pay $40K for a $20K car and it'll be more reliable. The US auto industry has been incapable of producing a half-decent vehicle for decades now.
How does a crackpot theory like this make the front page? What's next JFK assassination theories or little green men tucked in freezers in Area 51?
Just a little bit of professional editorial work, that's all I ask.
Do you think that since the NHTSA possibly delayed the report because the governement actually owns a good chunk of GM? Hmmmm....
and took the loss to get it off the books. Then perhaps we could have been freed of these shenanigans. I know, I know, yeah it would have tanked the share price and cost other investors money but those investors purchased their shares knowing full well that government had no long term investment need.
Instead we see politics as usual. From having GE (no taxes, many WH meetings) agree to buy a large number of these cars, we have the Toyota witch hunt earlier this year (even NASA's help could not find fault), and we have the battery issue where three batteries caught fire (one three weeks after a wreck, one a week after a simulated wreck, and one hours after a simulated wreck)
We have GM sitting on nearly thirty billion in cash, hell they should buy their shares back. Oh wait, they are sitting on it because there is a fear they won't be able to properly fund the pensions for certain unions.
The reason this battery issue is important is not just to those driving, but to those in the accident with these cars and those responding to the accidents. Whether they are first responders or the wrecker crews. I would have to assume there is a large amount of technical documentation for hazardous waste clean up, hell we freak out over diesel spills can you imagine full penetration of one of these battery packs?
Another Administration and no real change; unless you count whose pockets the money goes in, it always comes out of ours.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Fortunately, every other vehicle on the road is made of granite and thus incapable of catching fire...
Just where does it say "a minor impact?" For the battery to start a fire, it has to be punctured, and that is no "minor impact." In addition, the fires that occured in the NHTSA test happened days and in one case weeks after the crash test.
Compare this to the infernal fireball that you get seconds after you puncture a gas tank.
The only place a Volt will catch fire is in the scrap yard after it has been totaled provided that some moron didn't discharge the battery before throwing it on the scrap heap.
Howard Roark, Architect
I believe in a Man's right to exist for his own sake.
Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts
And on the other hand the same NHTSA was all too happy to jump all over Toyota when some morons could not remember which pedal is for braking.
Cool, another Pinto, but electric this time. I'm sure the story is overblown, but anything that stores energy is going to be a fire risk.
...with no fewer than 285 people dying as a consequence. But, then, people have been living with the hazard of petrol for over a century. Irrationally, electric-vehicle fires are perceived as somehow more worrisome simply because they are new."
That's more than the amount of people who die from terrorism every year. And yet we're spending billions and curbing our Constitutional Rights because of it.
What the fuck is my point? Life has risks and automobiles are the biggest risk to life and limb in our modern world and we need to get over it.
Sadly, we won't because people are stupid.
Depends on the tank (and gas cap seal) I suppose, since it escapes faster than helium:
Oddly a gasoline tank with holes in it will leak too. Imagine that, you need a tank that holds the material you are trying to contain.
Do I get to compensate for the additional cost of gas that the ICE car requires?
I'll put forward the Mitsubishi i, which can charge to 80% in half an hour with a quick charger
Fail. When you need a car now, 1/2 hour is unacceptable. You may as well take the bus.
Compare with any other tiny economy 4-seater.
You mean the ones that cost 3x-4x less (tax bonus doesn't count, I mean real cost), are far more robust, have 3x the range and in the end only cost about 3x as much to fill up yet you can fill them right away?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Joan ClayBrook was head of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) in the Carter administration from 1977 to 1981
30 years ago.
So,it's an opinion from someone who has no insight to the details.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Same issues occured when the auto industry 1st got it's feet wet. This is new-tech AND for certain is the next place to go in terms of automobiles.
Electric cars are not new tech. They are tech we abandoned a century ago because the ICE was vastly superior.
The cute little car that's made out of clay!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
It gets even stranger: more people have died from solar energy accidents (mostly, falling off roofs while installing panels), than have died from nuclear accidents. Of course, ordinary facts can never overcome irrational fears...
For those who don't want to click on the link, the most dangerous (by far) is coal (including deaths due to pollution). Nuclear is the safest. The stats are based on deaths/TWh, and the authors gives lots of references.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
The only way to really have this risk tested is to set the Mythbusters on it to try and make one blow up in flames. :D
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
This has nothing to do with the administration, or ANY administration. In fact, it's a highly questionable article. and out of context quote from someone who was involved in the NHTSA 30 years ago? please.
His auto program saved thousands of jobs, and got tax dollars back. But you idiots refuse to look at the facts.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
...unexplained fires are a matter for the courts
A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Do you really think those cables would be run through anything other than the undercarriage or bottom frame of the car?
I remember and interview from back when she was at NHTSA. She threw around language like "the sanctity of human life". I guess human life is sacred when it's endangered by a politically-correct car.
If you took all of GM's blunders over the last 100 years and turned them into successes the US today would have:
It's like the actively work against the citizens of the US, but nobody cares...
...maybe you could toss "jew" and "n*gger" in there, too?
No, you're confused. It's the ones at the "occupy" protests that are (once again...history repeats) blaming the "Jew bankers" and "Jews/Zionists controlling Obama/the government" for the country's woes. I saw more anti-Semitic signs at just *one* "occupy" event than I saw racist signs of any kind at *all* the TEA Party events combined.
Please stop buying into the class and race warfare hatred being pimped by the Left. You're drinking poison and hoping the other person dies. What kind of government do you hope for if those whose beliefs are based around hatred and envy are the ones to build it?
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Just another coal burning car designed for those with poor ROI math skills. I cannot honestly understand why anyone would buy any of these vehicles in the first place.
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Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
I'd take what that article says with a grain of salt. Some BBC UK writers have made up stuff before to put Obama and his administration in a bad light. They have no source for the claim that the NHTSA knew about the defect for 5 months and withheld that information. Joan Claybrook was head of the NHSTA from 1977 to 1981. So not exactly someone who knows details of a current NHSTA investigations. They link to a autoguide article that mentions the Insurance Institute of Highway Safety having an incident on the 2nd test, but they're not a government agency and don't report to government agencies. Lots of leaps being made with no evidence to back it up.
trying to start a gas lawnmower is a classic pain in the ass. whether starting the first time or if you need to stop/start for some reason.
extension cords are less annoying, but still somewhat problematic. battery-powered electrics are the best of both worlds, they do exist.
for that and other yard tools, they're small enough that battery capacity, charging time and other electrical infrastructure issues aren't relevant like they are for electric cars
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Jaws sometimes go through the frame.
Operative word 'was', Indeed economics, convenience, and the advent of Horizontal Drilling (in America and maybe someday Antarctica) may delay the onset of Electric cars, but the thing that is holding it back isn't the 'tech'. it's the reality of the $$$ and to a lesser extent the vested interests of the industrial incumbents. What other motor gives you max torque from zero RPM, is whisper quiet and makes your fuel gauge go up whilst rolling downhill or braking? What other motor can drive hundreds of miles for 3 or 4 dollars? What other motor can you leave running inside, and not have it kill you with carbon monoxide. What other engine/drivetrain has 5 moving parts (driveshaft and rear differential). What other motor is limited by bearing lifetime? (A. Induction and Other Brushless Electric Motor types) What other car could get rid of Transport Related pollution tomorrow, and put the (overall) lowered amount of required emissions in a centrally located power station where electrostatic scrubbers can get rid of particulate pollution? Or you could use nuclear, if your into that, or 'Renewables' if you live in a world that would pay for that. What other car cuts out the whole "dinosaur being buried under a rock for thousands of years part of fuel production" to turn into Crude Oil -> Petrol -> and ultimately Solar energy that gets all our cars moving everyday, by using Solar Panels to capture the energy directly rather than having your own private Jurassic Park set up and then periodically burying it to collect the Fuels sometime later?? I know Brazil produces a lot of ethanol, how much land are they using to do that? Provided that the population keeps increasing, do you think there is enough arable land in the world not being used to feed people that could support all the worlds cars using ethanol? Do you think we should all catch the train and ditch energy intensive personal transportation? Anyway, back to the topic. electric cars are just starting to take off, at first for people who can afford them, and after that, for people who want to pay less than what it would cost to operate an ICE. Like how computers were first built by the militaries and universities, and then used for companies that wanted to save money and do more with less. EV's certainly has a hard time ahead of them trying to usurp a huge, successful and established industry that has given us alot. Remember, the ICE is a Highly Complex, high maintenance machine with (hundreds of moving parts, that needs various fluids, and a Transmission Drivebelts, Air Filters, Cam Shafts (timing related tasks can be shuffled off to a $2 microcontroller) and a muffler and a catalytic converter, and any number of items you no longer need in an EV). I think the only thing stopping the EV from obviating the ICE car as we know it today is the battery, in every other technical respect it is superior today, except perhaps in sex appeal, but that's not technical :-) . I judge superiority in terms of 'what is the simplest, least labor intensive (and potentially cheapest, sustainable) way to do something" . The compromise always tends to the cheapest option in the markets. So maybe in economics, cost relates to how laborious it is to do something, It must have been very laborious of the US Government to bail out those Banks. Off topic, again! In conclusion, I.C.E. is winning today. When fuel becomes too scarce then we will move on to something different, I consider that something superior, maybe that something and how it is perceived is in the eye of the beholder.
I forgot one thing, the amortised cost of battery pack replacement, which would make that 3 or 4 dollar figure significantly higher, (Especially if you presumed no reduction in price of a new pack in 5-6 years time, which I think is an erroneous assumption), anyway, as they say nothing's free.
whoa and YOU will really buy that the KKK represents the whole thing? REALLY? You damn well know if you read the news that, yes, the KKK put out a press release asking their members to go out and say that. so that rubes like you could mad at it, i guess. Yes it hurt the image, but only a jackass would associate the two in any thing but the loosest sense. Fuck off.
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
Except situation B, as shown by the nuclear industry, is a lot less than even .001%. We've gotten a LOT of reactor years, with a total of 3 major incidents.
TMI - radiation release was pretty much confined to the plant, and what escaped was short lived(and likely less horrible than living a similar distance from a coal plant, even at the worst point). No identified deaths.
Chernobyl - Really bad. Still a limited number of deaths, and built in ways that would never have passed muster in most of the rest of the world, much less the USA, Europe, etc... No containment dome, positive void coeffecient, carbon moderation rods, etc...
Fukushima - a first generation nuclear plant, within a year of decommissioning anyways, taken out by a Tsunami. Some land is currently off limits due to radiation concerns, but on the whole the danger is far less than all the other crud released by the wave. To date, known casualties at the plant are restricted to what could have happened at any other industrial facility when hit by an earthquake and giant wave of water. In addition, it's been noted that more modern plants wouldn't suffer many of the same failures, as said failures had been figured and and countermeasures designed and implemented. Things like a somewhat higher/differently designed seawall, not putting the generators in the basement, and proper hydrogen diffusers/burnoff devices.
Risk management - I'd rather take the .02% chance* of being affected by a nuclear accident than sacrifice a pretty much guaranteed 1% of my life. Of course, I have above average math ability.
On subsidies - did you read up on Price-Anderson and find out such things that the US Governemnt hasn't ever had to pay out under it's terms? Realize that the US Government tends to stick it's nose(and finances) into ANY disaster of that magnitude? That, even being generous for counting P-A as a subsidy(insurance schemes like this being fairly discretional on how you value them on the basis of your assumptions).
*14k reactor years of civil operation, 3 major accidents, .02% chance of major accident per reactor year. Death toll is harder to calc, considering the accidental deaths are like 50 for Chernobyl, and 0 for TMI and Fukishima**. Still, let's use the 350k evacuated from Fukushima as a standard. That's a .014% chance of dying IN Chernobyl (50/350k), and much lower odds if you consider (50/(350K*14K)). .000001% chance of dying if you live right next to a nuclear reactor from a major accident involving it, per year, by my calculation. Of course, that doesn't take into account that most of the 50 deaths, specifically the 35 initial ones, were all plant workers or emergency responders.
**I'll admit to not counting deaths that could have happened in pretty much any industry - you can get killed in a steam explosion as easily, if not more easily, in a coal plant as you can a nuclear. Meanwhile, finding a few thousand deaths by coal isn't hard at all. Heck, it's more an annual figure of the death toll, and that's today, not going back to the begennings of the industry. Just about everything is safer today - why can't we build some safe nuke plants, get the actively killing coal plants shut down, and then move on to the older, more dangerous(and less efficient) nuke plants, just to be safe?
I don't read AC A human right
whoa and YOU will really buy that the KKK represents the whole thing? REALLY? You damn well know if you read the news that, yes, the KKK put out a press release asking their members to go out and say that. so that rubes like you could mad at it, i guess. Yes it hurt the image, but only a jackass would associate the two in any thing but the loosest sense. Fuck off
Just...wow.
I don't really need to say anything here, do I?
Your post is a near-perfect example of the Left's extreme hatred, intolerance, and contempt for anyone that doesn't hold the same views that I was talking about. Thanks for making my point on hatred with your reply to my post. It couldn't have been a better example if I'd typed your reply for you.
And FYI, I never mentioned the KKK. Nice straw-man argument. The anti-Semitic signs and banners I referred to seeing at OWS weren't being held by KKK members. I saw them being proudly waved by a number of different people from several different groups (including some Union groups) as well as a few individuals that didn't appear to be part of a group of any kind.
That's not painting with a broad brush. That's simply observing an obvious fact. Antisemitism was and is broadly on display throughout the protests and is one of the major themes occurring repeatedly across various OWS groups, sub-groups, and individuals. Attempting to portray it as limited to a few fringe outsiders is disingenuous at best and an outright propaganda lie at it's worst.
Turn away from the dark side. The hatred filling you will only destroy you and all you care about. In the end, hatred always destroys itself. Once loosed, hatred grows until it consumes the hater.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
no, actually, you've changed no one here, you made assy comments, and got an answer to match - and saying that anti-Semitism is a key characteristic of the occupy movement means I DONT LIKE YOU - MOVE ALONG.
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
and saying that anti-Semitism is a key characteristic of the occupy movement means I DONT LIKE YOU - MOVE ALONG.
Sorry, your entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Don't hate me for pointing it out to you, hate the anti-Semitic OWS'ers.
Maybe you could get Adam Sandler to go down to OWS protests and sing the Hanukkah Song. You might want to provide a security detail to escort him, though, as it seems many of the OWS'ers have a lot of hate-ukkah for those who celebrate Hanukkah.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
NO BODY agrees with you. There is no cognitive bias. You are a shill, trying to establish some authority to dictate what a movement is about. You're ego is stunning in it's simplicity. You can have the last word - but ill have the last laugh, because you can't kill an idea no matter how many people, like you, try. Suck on it.
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
NO BODY agrees with you. There is no cognitive bias. You are a shill, trying to establish some authority to dictate what a movement is about. You're ego is stunning in it's simplicity. You can have the last word - but ill have the last laugh, because you can't kill an idea no matter how many people, like you, try. Suck on it.
Go dust your portrait of Goebbels, or some of your OWS buddies might think you're a Jewish sympathizer.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Having responded to many wrecks of various cars in various states of being destroyed, you learn the variation that is in front of you. You're trained to know the difference between an electric, hybrid, or gas/diesel car, and you're trained to look for airbags in modern cars (taking the roof off? don't cut through an undetonated curtain airbag cylinder!). If you know what to look for (and first responders are trained in this), it's pretty easy to be able to see where it's safe to cut with the jaws and where you need to steer clear. Furthermore, there's a compounding factor in car design that reduces the electrical hazard to first responder crews: collapseable steering columns. If someone is pinned by the steering wheel, you may have to cut the lower frame of the car at the base of the A pillars to literally bend the car in half (the steering wheel moves with the front wheel/frame/engine assembly, so you bend that away from the trapped occupant, giving more room). However, this situation is less likely now than it was with non-collapseable steering columns (you're more likely to be able to just pull/bend the busted column away from the person without cutting the chassis). They're not going to put EV electrical conduits in the doors or upper parts of the frame (that's just extra wiring; the power's going to the wheels after all), so that's about the only time you'd be in trouble for an extrication. tl;dr: The way cars are made now this risk is low in the first place, and the first responders know what to look out for to keep themselves safe.
"...And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" ~Bob Moawad