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Predator Drone Helps Nab Cattle Rustlers
riverat1 writes "KTLA reports police in North Dakota arrested three men accused of cattle rustling with the help of a Predator B drone from nearby Grand Forks AFB. The sheriff of Nelson Country was chased off by three armed men when he went to serve a warrant, so he came back the next morning with reinforcements, including the drone, which, while circling 2 miles overhead, was able to determine the whereabouts of the men on their 3,000 acre spread and the fact that they were unarmed. A SWAT team quickly moved in and apprehended the men. Local police say they have used the Predator drones for at least two dozen surveillance flights since June. The FBI and DEA have used the drones for domestic investigations as well."
I never would have guessed that they would actually take HL2 as a guide. Did someone forget to tell them it was just a video game?
three men accused of cattle rustling with the help of a Predator B drone
You know, the story would have been a lot cooler this way.
Before anyone goes all ape-s$%t about this being an intrusion of the military into civilian affairs, the drones in question are owned and operated by Customs and Border Patrol, a division of the Department of Homeland Security. They are housed at an Air Force base, but not used nor owned by the USAF.
CBP had been using drones for a couple of years to patrol the borders and this is an extension of that mission. Works better than a helo, especially for very large areas.
now all we need is like 50 million more of those and we'll all be safe!
Bad summary. Not just the typo above or the plagiarism from TFA.
The drones may be "from nearby Grand Forks AFB", but they do not belong to the Air Force.
The FBI and DEA have used drones, but they are not the drones.
"Local police" is completely vague. Just because it might make sense in the article doesn't mean it makes sense here.
Captcha: rewrite
I'll take some cattle rustlers over militarized police chasing cattle rustlers any day, thanks. Much like the cure/disease metaphor, not every policing measure targeting every crime improves society, even if successful...
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
this story says otherwise:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/12/12/sovereign-citizens-members-arrested-with-help-of-predator-drone/
they weren't cattle rustlers, but members of "Sovereign Citizens" movement.
I mean ... that could just as easily be a police helicopter up there as a drone.
Look its just like anything else, if you're not a criminal you have nothing to worry about. Remember that scene in Minority Report, the one where those "Spider Drones" are released in the low income tenant building and proceed to crawl under every door, claw their way up the pant leg of every tenant, and then scan their eyeball for identification? Perfectly harmless!
It's poorly identified at the story link. The original can be found at latimes.com.
Dog is my co-pilot.
Some bizarre version of Phil Dick, Orwell, Terry Gilliam and Mat Groening.
If William Gibson had imagined anything like "The Kardashians" in Count Zero? It would have seemed over-the-top.
Now, we have the dystopian technologies, without the advances in immersive entertainment that these were supposed to come with.
Predator drones and Jersey Shore. The Jeffersonian experiment is really over.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
These aren't the drones you're looking for. ...
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
If they determined that the men were unarmed, what was the need for a SWAT team? What happened to old fashioned policing?
For most of the country, cattle rustling is a serious offense. And such is felt moreso by the cattle owners themselves, than what the law currently holds. Do that sorta thing and get caught by the wrong property owner, and they'd probably shoot you on sight, dig a hole, and think none to much more of it.
Now as far as using drones for this kinda thing, and in this particular instance, I see it as a valid use of technology. Large land area to cover, minimal personnel resources... Jurisdiction is questionable, IMO, since ICE shouldn't be involved unless they were along the Canadian border or trying to cross it with said cattle, but 'cattle rustling' itself may be a Federal crime to begin with, I'm not sure.
Either way, it all boils down the specifics, right? Who is using it? For what purpose? And are they justifying the success of one instance, for its use on tangential issues that necessarily wouldn't be beneficial to the stopping of crime?
There's also the jump in argument that with the slow adoption of such technology at all in modern society, urban or rural, regardless of its effectiveness on crime in progress, that the monitoring of citizens will eventually be considered. Be it 'free speech' zones, or everyday life. Remember, it's much easier to stop the introduction of these practices now, than to retract such practices later when they become entrenched into the system, with an adequate line item on the annual budget!
6 cows=$6000,
2 days of drones=priceless
The six adult Brossarts allegedly belonged to the Sovereign Citizen Movement, an antigovernment group that the FBI considers extremist and violent. The family had repeated run-ins with local police, including the arrest of two family members earlier that day arising from their clash with a deputy over the cattle.
So it's a good chance they were violent nutters, which makes the use of drones a lot more reasonable in my book.
Still, you have to worry about the cost (~$3200 per hour) of using predators for civilian use.
This looks suspiciously like an effort to make the use of Predator drones in conjunction with police investigations seem acceptable to the general public. The fact is the Department of Homeland Security was behind the use of drones in this affair, and this is yet another camel's nose under the tent. A few more stories like this and then stories about the use of drones in police surveillance will no longer be "newsworthy". That's when their use will become truly ubiquitous ... when no one's paying attention any longer.
Seriously. Firstly they use a drone, then the drone establishes that the men are unarmed, and then they send in SWAT? WTF? 2 or 3 cops with pepper-spray would have done the job, or were the SWAT team bored?
So the police reacted to the recovery of these six pieces of livestock by calling a predator drone from customs and immigration. Since this was neither a federal customs or immigration issue, I do not know why the drone was there. There were American Citizens on American Soil, not apparently engaged in interstate commerce of import/export, yet drones that have no been authorized for local use were used. This was like when Texas conservative misappropriated federal resources to hound legislators that were boycotting the session. These are your federal tax dollars being misused by local cops to harass citizens.
Now I probably do not agree with what these people are doing, but in america we have to deal with people we do not agree with. We can't just ignore the constitution and 200 years of laws and court ruling and go onto other people private property and intimidate them. On thing with which I disagree with this radicals is that guns are going to protect anyone from government excesses. Clearly this is another case where that is proven wrong. The toys that the NRA allows the citizens of the US to have can do nothing. The NRA is a front for the part of the government that wants to control the population, giving people a sense of security by allowing cap guns, but insuring that anything that could actually be used to defend property remains out of bounds, both by removing materials and processes. The only time the NRA is going to help is if one wants to commit suicide by cop.
We should all be worried that predator drones are being used by rogue cops for purposes that have not been approved by our representatives. This was a case of mickey mouse crime with mickey mouse radicals being escalated to scare the populous into use not so mickey mouse defenses.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
So you've ran off some law enforcement with lethal weaponry...but then, didn't you'd think they'd come back in force? I can almost see them: Bad Guys: Hurrrr hurr hurr...you shoulda seen them cops runnin...they ain't coming back at us hundreds strong with SWAT Teams or Drone aircraft now....harharhrharrharharhar.... If it were me after having run off some cops with some lethal weaponry, I'd be running myself too.
...in bed
Cost of a predator drone: $30M
Cost of a cow: $2K
So, as soon as they use a predator to round up 15,000 cows stolen, they'll break even....
Check your premises.
If this was being flown by the military it better not have had any weapons on it. Otherwise they just flew a drone over the Rubicon.
Drone in action!
"The average professional in this country wakes up in the morning, goes to work, comes home, eats dinner, and then goes to sleep, unaware that he or she has likely committed several federal crimes that day. Why? The answer lies in the very nature of modern federal criminal laws, which have exploded in number but also become impossibly broad and vague. In Three Felonies a Day, Harvey A. Silverglate reveals how federal criminal laws have become dangerously disconnected from the English common law tradition and how prosecutors can pin arguable federal crimes on any one of us, for even the most seemingly innocuous behavior."
http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
I find myself wondering if there's any chance the drone actually saved the life of one or more of the men. I hear so many stories about police shooting unarmed civilians, that I wonder if the drone footage (confirming the men to be unarmed) prevented the situation from escalating to the point where the police would shoot first and ask questions later.
(Note: I'm not condoning nor justifying the use of drones against American civilians. I'm only pondering if one questionably unethical act played part in preventing something a lot more horrific.)
The FAA is still trying to figure out how to integrate UAS's. (They are not called UAV's in the FAA NAS system).
Many legal issues remain:
- Enforcing see and avoid rules required in VFR flight
- Defining standards for communication with aircraft
- Who do you enforce rules with a violation when there is an accident if there is no pilot
- How to handle technical issues such as loss of control / software failure, physical issues such as loss of a trim type control, flap system, etc.
- Weather issues such as high winds, icing
As a pilot and somebody active in aviation software, I'm interested to see where things go here. The reason the military has been able to fly UAV's is because they don't have any rules. Do whatever you want. But in the civil area, we have rules because we choose to protect ourselves from our government and others.
"The average professional in this country wakes up in the morning, goes to work, comes home, eats dinner, and then goes to sleep, unaware that he or she has likely committed several federal crimes that day. Why? The answer lies in the very nature of modern federal criminal laws, which have exploded in number but also become impossibly broad and vague. In Three Felonies a Day, Harvey A. Silverglate reveals how federal criminal laws have become dangerously disconnected from the English common law tradition and how prosecutors can pin arguable federal crimes on any one of us, for even the most seemingly innocuous behavior." http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556
No kidding. Consider patent law:
35 U.S.C. 271 Infringement of patent.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
I hope you all have Proof of Authorization to Use documents for your cell phones, mp3 players, computers, etc.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
When they use advanced tech to determine they are unarmed, then send in a SWAT team, yeah, that's dystopian.
What would they have done if they were armed? Call in an air strike?
The tech is not infallible. They appeared unarmed would be more accurate.
I don't know what the rules are in this case; but I know property ownership in the west isn't as simple as "stay off my land".
Cows that aren't yours can legally graze on your land, and you can't do anyting about it except maybe fence them out. I'm not sure; but the grazing rights might be sold separately, as the water rights and mineral rights are.
Even in Virginia, I seem to recall having read that hunters are allowed to persue game onto your property. It's a right. You have to know the rules. You can't just go shooting people for stepping over a line. The property ownership model in the US is a lot more "communal" than you might think.
Potentially, law enforcement may also have a right to persue suspected rustled livestock across open range without obtaining a warrant. IANAL, so I don't know...
They'll sort it out in court, not Slashdot of course...
I do feel that the whole "police UAVs = 1984" thing is slightly odd, given that all a UAV is in this role is a cheaper police helicopter. Unless your objection is specifically against all cameras between altitudes of 1.6m and 100km, I don't see much difference between the platform being manned or unmanned.
"The average professional in this country wakes up in the morning, goes to work, comes home, eats dinner, and then goes to sleep, unaware that he or she has likely committed several federal crimes that day. Why? The answer lies in the very nature of modern federal criminal laws, which have exploded in number but also become impossibly broad and vague. In Three Felonies a Day, Harvey A. Silverglate reveals how federal criminal laws have become dangerously disconnected from the English common law tradition and how prosecutors can pin arguable federal crimes on any one of us, for even the most seemingly innocuous behavior." http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556
Yeah. Whoda thunk cattle rustling was against the law?
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
I do feel that the whole "police UAVs = 1984" thing is slightly odd, given that all a UAV is in this role is a cheaper police helicopter. Unless your objection is specifically against all cameras between altitudes of 1.6m and 100km, I don't see much difference between the platform being manned or unmanned.
It's the same thing as a GPS tracker on a car vs a full surveillance team. In both cases the problem is that the new tech is much cheaper. Because it is cheaper it will be used much more frequently and by many more agencies. My local police department can't afford their own helicopter, but 10 years from now I wouldn't be surprised if they have a drone.
It boils down to the previous expense made it much less common, and traceable. You probably couldn't use a police helicopter to follow some guy who made your shitlist 24/7, but drones will soon make that sort of thing inevitable. At least when this stuff was less common abuses were also less common; when it was more expensive, accountability was also higher.
Yeah. Whoda thunk cattle rustling was against the law?
We've moved on from that to talk about the law in general. I know it's hard, but please try to keep up.
And previously, they had been armed and chased the sheriff. They've already proven themselves to be dangerous; you approach them with caution.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
Of course it's not infallible. Of course they could have only appeared unarmed. If they knew for certain they weren't armed, they wouldn't have needed to bother sending SWAT. It's all a matter of finding as much information as possible about a situation before sending people into potential danger.
Because the government was never meant to have near omnipotent power over its citizens, which is where we are headed.
Originally, citizens were allowed guns to protect them from the military (and conceivably the police).
But now technology and tactics have advanced to where you cannot protect yourself from the government at all.
Sure crime, murder, and disorder are bad. But I don't want to live in a country where absolutely none of those exist because the government has absolute control of everything. The government does not even have to abuse this power (simply for that amount of power to exist is an abuse of power) for it to be a dystopia.
It helps to keep the government honest and just to know that really to control the country you need at least 50% of the citizens behind you. But with all the weapons, tech, and know how we have today the government could enforce anything on the people with only a comparative handful of people working with them.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Originally, citizens were allowed guns so that they could _be_ the military (militia).
There are structures of power in government that go beyond either party: powerful lobbying groups, financial industry, military-industrial complex, etc. To really be in control, you don't need at least 50% of the votes. Adverse control of government has become a systemic problem, hence why I am not going to vote anymore.
Does anyone here know what FAA rules apply to drones? I know people flying RC aircraft have to pay attention to sectionals. How about police helicoptors?
right , the hell with a swat team they should have nuked them from orbit ... only way to be sure. right guys? guys?
i don't wonder why the US is in debt, and now i don't care. (apparently i have a lot of company - albeit not for the same reasons)
Iran was probably watching the video stream thinking wtf are these american's doing ?
Mine from 1999: http://kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/fears.htm
"The race is on to make the human world a better (and more resilient) place before one of these overwhelms us:
Autonomous military robots out of control
Nanotechnology virus / gray slime
Ethnically targeted virus
Sterility virus
Computer virus
Asteroid impact
Y2K
Other unforseen computer failure mode
Global warming / climate change / flooding
Nuclear / biological war
Unexpected economic collapse from Chaos effects
Terrorism w/ unforseen wide effects
Out of control bureaucracy (1984)
Religious / philosophical warfare
Economic imbalance leading to world war
Arms race leading to world war
Zero-point energy tap out of control
Time-space information system spreading failure effect (Chalker's Zinder Nullifier)
Unforseen consequences of research (energy, weapons, informational, biological)"
Some ideas about managing such risks: http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/2846ca1b6bee64e1
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
"Military robots like drones are ironic because they are created essentially to force humans to work like robots in an industrialized social order. Why not just create industrial robots to do the work instead?"
Also, eating factory farmed meat in general is killing us and destroying our environment:
http://www.ravediet.com/preview.html
http://www.westernwatersheds.org/watmess/watmess_2002/2002html_summer/article6.htm
http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/PCI_angioplasty_article.aspx
http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/foodpyramid.aspx
So, maybe we'd be better off if the predators got rid of the cows instead of the rustlers?
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Do you know what dystopia means?
This entire story is far more complex and subtle, than the "McNews" cattle-rustle story linked in the original posting.
Read Greenwald, who as usual, digs deeper into the context and background. It is indeed, a story of creeping fascist militarization of the US: http://www.salon.com/2011/12/12/the_growing_menace_of_domestic_drones/singleton/?mobile.html
The colonists overthrew George lll for lesser intrusion.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
It's not just the UAVs. It's probably also the red light cameras. A war the will never end (there always has been and always will be the threat of terror/fear). The bill going through congress to allow the military to detain U.S. citizens on U.S. soil without trial (with huge bi-partisan and little outrage from the citizenry). Carrier IQ. The idea that a private vendor doesn't have to play by the same rules as the government even if they're acting on behalf of the government. The government needs a warrant to tap your phone, or they can just buy the info from your provider. No one thing makes 1984 and each piece can be justified.
When drones become autonomous we will just say 'I don't see what the big deal is, if you're breaking the law it's no different than a person catching you'. That's already the argument for traffic enforcement via cameras.
It's a hard argument to say any one thing equals 1984.
Beavis and Butthead controlling drones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExFXDFtt_zY
...after being tasered in an earlier incident on their land for allegedly resisting arrest, they brandished weapons at the officers who came to seize the cows.
So sounds like a tazer-happy "occifer" barged on their land first.
The police are just another gang. The main difference between a normal gang and the government run gang is the government has the ability to disband the largest gang of them all.
Here is the problem that I haven't seen anyone else mention yet:
The problem is that it is military personnel and equipment that are helping local law enforcement. If law enforcement wants to get their own drones, that's a different matter. But the military has absolutely no place getting involved in civilian law enforcement affairs, even to offer "innocent" help.
If there was ever something that could be called a genuine slippery slope, this is it.
Here is a problem that I haven't seen anyone else mention yet:
The problem is that it is military personnel and equipment that are helping local law enforcement. If law enforcement wants to get their own drones, that's a different matter. But the military has absolutely no place getting involved in civilian law enforcement affairs, even to offer "innocent" help.
If there was ever something that could be called a genuine slippery slope, this is it.
[Added later:] I read a bit further and saw that others have in fact brought the subject up, but not quite in the same way.
If William Gibson had imagined anything like "The Kardashians" in Count Zero? It would have seemed over-the-top.
Over to top? Surely you must be kidding. Kim Kardashian would be a simstim star.
that's the way I saw it as well.
Amerika.
jr
If William Gibson had imagined anything like "The Kardashians" in Count Zero? It would have seemed over-the-top.
Try this instead.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
"Give me a home, where predator drones roam..."
What would they have done if they were armed? Call in an air strike?
No, they'd simply have waited a while. As they did, by the way. Indeed, the first time they were spotted they were armed. So police waited until the next day when they appeared unarmed.
I think this is a mistake anon. We need widespread voting to prove that the system is corrupt. Look at what's happening in Russia for an example. The only hope is to vote them out and then make them officially depose the constitution and civil rights. Otherwise we're essentially allowing them to have their cake an eat it too. They can pretend we're a democracy while oppressing us.
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. - Hunter S. Thompson
if the only intended use of the $30M was for cattle based crimes you might have a point, but its not, so you don't...and ask.com?!?!? really?
We should not consider control of crime as "control of everything". We want cops to catch all criminals in all instances of crime. If a law is poorly worded so that it can be misapplied then the sheer numbers of those held in jails and prisons will force us to write more reasonable laws. But catching criminals, cheats and liars will always make it a better world. Freedom does not include deciding what laws you can break and when you can break them.
Indeed, cost and convenience are the issues. I don't think it should be seen as inherently bad that police can use UAVs for surveillance, but policies and limitations on their use need to be discussed and formalized. Perhaps a warrant should be required to use one to watch private property.
As insane as interpretation of patent law has become, it's not a crime to infringe a patent. That is still within the realm of civil law and at worst, you can be sued by someone claiming infringement, not prosecuted by the government. That's just one reason I use whatever code I want to on my devices regardless of what patents it probably infringes with no fear of serious consequences. I know that I'll never be a big enough target for the likes of the MPEG LA to pay attention.
all the techniques used in iraq, coming to a theater near you!
Remember these drones are only the tools. Drones carry out the orders. And the orders are getting worse.
It's actually the Border Patrol and not the military. We don't have a militrized border on either side but especially on the Canadian border. These are not military Predators.
www.joshferguson.org
Well, the story said Air Force. Or at least from an Air Force Base. So it strongly implied that it was military.