YouTube Says UMG Had No 'Right' To Take Down Megaupload Video

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YouTube Says UMG Had No 'Right' To Take Down Megaupload Video

Posted by timothy on Saturday December 17, 2011 @04:36AM from the layered-agreements dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Contrary to a previous story, Google played no part in the Megaupload takedown. From Wired: 'YouTube said Friday that Universal Music abused the video-sharing site's piracy filters when it employed them to take down a controversial video of celebrities and pop superstars singing and praising the notorious file-sharing service Megaupload.'"

43 of 220 comments (clear)

Google shouldn't had given them such right by InsightIn140Bytes · 2011-12-17 04:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

.. to begin with. That's just incompetent management. I don't have the right to delete anyones video at whim either, so why should big companies. Google needs to start running it's business better and hire people to process DMCA request. The worst thing is that they're doing much of this automatically. They have algorithms that look for the url from DMCA requests and automatically disables the video and sends the owner message. That just allows for abuse.
1. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · 2011-12-17 04:45 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  The DMCA itself is what "allows for abuse". The law was written so that site operators are required to take down if they receive a DMCA notice. BTW, have you seen the new "tell your Congresscritter to vote for SOPA/Protect IP commercials? Pack of outrageous lies -- like "stolen TV shows are costing American jobs".
2. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by InsightIn140Bytes · 2011-12-17 04:50 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  "and hire people to process DMCA request."
  This wasn't a DMCA request.
  That special access was given to Universal so that they wouldn't need to hire people to process DMCA requests.
3. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by AngryDeuce · 2011-12-17 04:57 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  It also puts liability against fake DMCA notices.
  Not nearly enough to prevent abuse, though. There needs to be a financial penalty for obviously illegitimate DMCA claims. Fair Use seems not to mean a damn thing to them...
4. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 05:03 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  DMCA itself is good. DMCA allows website owners protection against liability if some user of the service spreads copyright infringing content. It also puts liability against fake DMCA notices. Itself, DMCA is better thing than not to have it, because otherwise website owners would be liable for the action their users take.
  Now, SOPA/Protect IP is a completely different matter, and should not be passed.
  No, DMCA itself is not good.
  Did you know that to be entitled for the DMCA 'safe harbor' you need to be REGISTERED FOR THE PROTECTION? If you are not registered for this DMCA safe harbor, anyone can sue you and you get no protection whatsoever.
5. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by betterunixthanunix · 2011-12-17 05:04 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  There are some good sections of the DMCA -- safe harbor provisions, specific protections for researchers, etc. Some good sections, but then there are the sections that need to be repealed as soon as humanly possible. The anti-circumvention provisions are nothing more than a hand-out to the copyright lobby, the blurring of software and hardware implementations severely restrict an entire class of otherwise protected speech, and the take-down-notice procedure has been widely abused.
  
  In all, no DMCA would have been better -- at least the public would have seen just how out-of-control copyright has become when their favorite websites were driven out of business by lawsuits. Right now the public is shielded from the consequences of overly-broad copyright -- only the hackers and intellectuals who do not fit the mold suffer. If we could keep only the good parts of the DMCA and get rid of the bad, that would be ideal -- yet without broad public support, that will never happen, and as long as it is only the hackers who suffer, there will never be such support.
  
  --
  Palm trees and 8
6. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 05:05 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Until there's a fine for fake DMCA takedown notices, the DMCA is broken and nothing more than a tool for massive faceless corporations to take down anything they like. Each time a corporation issues a misleading DMCA notice, and it's disputed, there should be a name and shame counter clocking on. Once it reaches a predetermined mark, the fine amounts should double. Sooner or later, this will be more expensive than the army of legal people abusing the system. Until there's a penalty that hurts the mega-corps' pockets, the DMCA will continue to be a tool against the small company or individual.
7. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2011-12-17 05:08 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  why are you talking about the DMCA giving UMG the right to do this?
  It's YouTube. Youtube's letting them do this.
  Granted, it's due to DMCA threats but... The fact that there isn't any oversight on YouTube/google's part is scary.
  
  --
  Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
8. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · 2011-12-17 05:11 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  You make it sound as though site operators have some kind of leeway regarding DMCA takedown notices - they don't - either they take it down, immediately, or they are in violation as well as the original poster.
9. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by InsightIn140Bytes · 2011-12-17 05:11 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  There is already heavy penalty for fake DMCA notices. It does require you to go to court to fight it, but you can't just assume that the original party should get penalty when it's only disputed. Remember that you have to look at it from the other side too. If someone was violating your GPL software and you sent the site hosting it DMCA notice, and the other party disputed it, you would now get financial penalty. We have courts to determine legal fights, and they give consequences for wrongful doing.
10. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by Anthony+Mouse · 2011-12-17 05:13 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  DMCA itself is good.
  No it isn't. Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act is good. The fact that the CDA doesn't cover "intellectual property" in the same way it does everything else is what the problem is.
11. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 05:16 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  There is already heavy penalty for fake DMCA notices. It does require you to go to court to fight it, but you can't just assume that the original party should get penalty when it's only disputed.
  Why not? They take down the content when it is only disputed. Why should one side have to provide proof when the other doesn't?
12. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by InsightIn140Bytes · 2011-12-17 05:16 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  The DMCA requires the process to be automated
  No it doesn't. Hell, some sites only allow you to send DMCA notices by postal mail to their designated copyright agent (and this is the correct way to read DMCA law). Interestingly, Megavideo is one such site. You have to send your DMCA notice by mail to Hong Kong based address.
13. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by AngryDeuce · 2011-12-17 05:22 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Exactly. If they weren't just yanking down whatever the fuck they wanted to with impunity then there would be no issue. There isn't even a human being involved in the process as it is used now, a computer program scans for matches, and if something hits, it's automatically pulled down, even when it is clearly Fair Use. They obviously are abusing their power to pull videos without considering whether it is legally infringing or not.
14. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 05:29 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Mod up. As someone who has done hosting for the past 15+ years, we have seen our share of DMCA-related requests coming from subcontractors (on behalf of large names like Atari, Nintendo, Sega, etc.) behaving exactly as the parent here says -- site operators are forced to take content down within 24-48 hours or are in violation. Refusal or ignoring the request will result in most of them reaching out to your co-location provider or uplink and demanding your entire connection be shut off. And that really gets folks' attention (including the co-lo or uplink provider considering terminating your contract on the spot, depending on how the takedown notice is phrased).
  TL;DR -- do not even for a moment think that the DMCA provides any sort of "safe-harbour" clauses for site operators/hosting providers. We are in the same shit-filled boat as the rest of the Internet. Set sail for dick.
15. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by ScrewMaster · 2011-12-17 05:29 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  DMCA itself is good.
  +5 Insightful? "DMCA itself is good"? Are you serous? It most definitely is not "good": that abomination should never, ever have been signed into law in its current form. Have you read it? If not, I suggest you do. Yes, SOPA is worse, but keep in mind that an MPAA law firm wrote the DMCA, and handed the thing to their tame Congressman for submission. We know this because a reporter extracted the metadata from the original Word document, and found the names of all the attorneys that had modified or reviewed it. It was not designed to balanced or fair, or to be a reasonable augmentation to copyright to accommodate technological advances. It was, purely and simply, all they thought they could get away with at the time. Look at the history of copyright extension in the U.S. the DMCA was only one of a long line of unholy modifications to copyright law that have done nothing but screw the American people, harm the public domain, and tie up an incredible quantity of court time on issues that often have nothing to do with copyright! It's an excellent period in U.S. history to become an "intellectual property" (whatever the Hell that actually means) lawyer, I suppose. That's another reason why these laws get passed: certain sectors of the legal profession make a lot of money.
  
  So now, a decade down the road, they're pulling out all the stops, buying all the Congresspeople they can, to finally and permanently remove copyright from its Constitutionally-mandated role to "promote the advancement of the useful arts and sciences." Remember who you are dealing with here: you cannot argue with them, you cannot reason with them, and they absolutely will not stop. Period. End of statement.
  
  Personally, I believe the practice of public officials taking bribes from foreign-owned corporations should be considered treasonous. But that's just me. I also have a fond wish that the Department of Justice would expel the ex-RIAA attorneys that our friend and savior Barack Obama appointed, and go after the corporations and corrupt Federal officials that have turned our patent and copyright systems into a corporatist welfare system.
  
  I don't expect to get much joy there either.
  
  --
  The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
16. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by Bob9113 · 2011-12-17 05:43 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  DMCA is better thing than not to have it, because otherwise website owners would be liable for the action their users take.
  The DMCA is a shit sandwich on good bread. The good bread doesn't make it a good sandwich. Websites that enable the public to distribute information are a Good Thing, and tossing them to the wolves to protect a copy of The Lion King does not make economic sense. The acceptance of the DMCA by a 2m+ user ID is a startlingly good example of The Overton Window in action (or you are a shill -- not unlikely given your quick +5 for that empty comment). Until we see some serious punishment for one of the serial abusers of the DMCA, it cannot remotely be considered a law in the public interest. It is a weapon of abuse, exactly as so many of us warned it would be when it was getting shoved down our throats, and exactly as so many of us are warning about SOPA now. The fact that they are now even bigger bastards wanting to be even more abusive to protect their little industry does not make the DMCA good.
  Quick question: If you had to give up the Internet for a year, or had to give up TV, music, and movies for a year, which would you do? I suspect the answer is, "I could not give up the Internet for a year, because it would cost me my job." We are protecting (poorly, I might add) one small industry at the expense of the most important technological advance in history, which is instrumental to every other industry and even to the small industry that is being protecting. The past 15 years of copyright law have been a nearly unmitigated loss for United States and global economic progress. To pretend otherwise is to betray a lack of sober reflection or understanding of the bigger picture.
  
  --
  Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
17. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by arbiter1 · 2011-12-17 05:56 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  They even used the DMCA removal tool on a streaming news program that uploads their videos to youtube when they had a clip of the video on their show and talked and Criticized it. Show in question is called TNT (Tech News Today). Its a week day program on Twit.tv. UMG claimed copyright in that video even though they used the clip under the fair use provision to discuss the story and comment. Clear violation of of the Fair Use Act that reads "Section (V) is similar to a broader version of the third prong of fair use and allows circumvention that enables access to public interest works for the purposes of "criticism, comment, news reporting, scholarship, or research." Since they are a News program.
18. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by Local+ID10T · 2011-12-17 06:08 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  You miss the point. Google is required by law to take down anything that a DMCA notice is filed against. It is irrelevant whether the DMCA notice is correct or not. The law states that they MUST TAKE IT DOWN. It is up to the owner to file a DMCA counter-notice to have it put back -at which point it legally becomes an issue between the poster, and the filer of the DMCA notice to resolve in court -leaving Google out of it.
  Having humans employed to process the DMCA notices would not change the fact that they are required to take it down, irrespective of their feelings on the validity of the notice.
  
  --
  "You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
19. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by shentino · 2011-12-17 07:27 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Just require notices to have the same "penalty of perjury" requirements that counter-notices are already bound by and I'd be satisfied.
  I don't think the UMG lawyer who wrote the notice would want to risk getting disbarred just to backstab the competition with legal trickery.
  As a side note, the fact that notices and counter-notices are treated unequally with regards to perjury as it is smells like a deliberate arrangement to give content producers the upper hand in the market. Just spamigate the competition with DMCA notices and see what sticks.
  Presently the only good thing about the DMCA is that innocent bystanders that happen to be hosting something uploaded by someone else don't get caught in the crosshairs. Everything else is utter and complete bullshit.
20. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by shentino · 2011-12-17 07:34 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  People who file counter-notices are already certifying their innocence under penalty of perjury.
  Make the original party bound by the same requirements for sending the notice in the first place.
21. Re:Google shouldn't had given them such right by flonker · 2011-12-17 12:36 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  http://www.copyright.gov/onlinesp/list/a_agents.html
Way to Go Universal! by rotorbudd · 2011-12-17 04:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

Ah, Universal ever heard of the Streisand Effect?
I'm sure Megaupload can explain it to you.

--
A bullet may have your name on it, but artillery is addressed to " Whom It May concern"
1. Re:Way to Go Universal! by dgatwood · 2011-12-17 05:02 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Ah, Universal ever heard of the Streisand Effect?
  Hear, hear. I didn't know what Megaupload was until Universal did this.
  
  --
  Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
2. Re:Way to Go Universal! by Existential+Wombat · 2011-12-17 05:04 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Me too.
  Now I have an account.
  Thanks UMG!
3. Re:Way to Go Universal! by DanielRavenNest · 2011-12-17 05:29 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  According to Alexa.com, the popularity of Megaupload seems to have increased about 15-20% in the last couple of weeks. Not only can we name the Streisand Effect, in this case we can measure it.
  By the way, Streisand uses Sony/Columbia for her music. It would have been ironic if she was signed with Universal.
4. Re:Way to Go Universal! by Daniel_Staal · 2011-12-17 07:00 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I have to admit, I'm starting to be impressed with Universal in this. A finer example of shooting yourself in the foot, I've never seen. I mean, most people manage to aim for a toe or something, but no, Universal had to aim directly for an artery. Nothing less would do.
  Really, they've managed to argue that they have the authorization to take down any clip on YouTube, for any or no reason. If they manage to win their argument, they'll prove they are arrogant douchbags, and prompt Google to re-do their DMCA takedown procedures to more closely fit the law. (And, incidentally, make it harder for Universal to use.) If they don't, they still manage to be arrogant douchbags, but they also manage to be the first case of someone being taken to court for abusing the DMCA.
  All of this over a video I'd have never heard of if they hadn't bothered to do anything. Give them a hand: when they aim for their foot, they make sure it's gone.
  
  --
  'Sensible' is a curse word.
5. Re:Way to Go Universal! by c++0xFF · 2011-12-17 09:42 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Give them a hand: when they aim for their foot, they make sure it's gone.
  
  Don't give them a hand. I'm sure they'd rather have their foot back instead.
And now we see... by AngryDeuce · 2011-12-17 04:43 · Score: 5, Interesting

This shit is why there should be penalties for abuse. These guys routinely do whatever the fuck they want regardless of Fair Use or any other rights the people have. I have seen this myself as every single video I have uploaded that had a DMCA claim made, when I challenged it, the videos were reinstated within a day or two. They know the claims are bullshit, but they're banking on the fact that people won't assert their rights.
Start hitting them with damages when they file these erroneous claims and watch how fast that shit stops....
1. Re:And now we see... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 04:48 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  There is a penalty for filing false DMCA claims, perjury. Unfortunately it seems like it is never enforced.
2. Re:And now we see... by Intron · 2011-12-17 05:08 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  You can sue them, but only for the damages that you suffered due to the takedown. I guess you could hire RIAA lawyers to calculate the damages for you.
  
  --
  Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
3. Re:And now we see... by AngryDeuce · 2011-12-17 05:13 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  I guess you could hire RIAA lawyers to calculate the damages for you.
  Eleventy Trillion Dollars!!!
so is that criminal, then? by Trepidity · 2011-12-17 04:43 · Score: 4, Interesting

Given the broad overreach [pdf] of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act to count violations of Terms of Service agreements as "unauthorized access" (i.e. "hacking"), it be a criminal offense for UMG to violate Google's rules on how its piracy filters are to be used?

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
1. Re:so is that criminal, then? by AngryDeuce · 2011-12-17 04:48 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  You're assuming that the laws apply to UMG. They pay good money to our representatives to ensure that they never do.
2. Re:so is that criminal, then? by houghi · 2011-12-17 05:14 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Don't be silly. They are a company and thus above the law. What are you? A communist to be even asking these kind of questions?
  
  --
  Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Still guilty in my eyes... by thestudio_bob · 2011-12-17 04:49 · Score: 4, Insightful

Google played no part in the Megaupload takedown.
Just because they (or you) say that, doesn't mean its true. They played a huge part in it. They are the ones that created the system and they are the ones that entered into an agreement with UMG. Wether or not UMG "wasn't supposed to do this", is irrelevant. Google's poor oversight and management of these takedown tools and not keeping an eye on how their partners use them, is just as bad in my eyes. If their system has a loophole for people to bypass the DMCA, then they need to fix it and manage their system and partners better, if "Do no evil" is still relevant to them.

--
The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains /.
Re:So why... by AngryDeuce · 2011-12-17 04:52 · Score: 4, Informative

UMG had admin privileges and was able to take videos down on it's own, Youtube gave them this ability in order to keep from getting hit with thousands of lawsuits. Of course, Youtube expected UMG to act in good faith with this power, and it is no clear that they have not. Hopefully, Youtube will be rescinding their privileges now that we see they can't be trusted with them...
So the Farmer let the Fox by Grand+Facade · 2011-12-17 05:02 · Score: 5, Funny

So the Farmer let the Fox into the chicken house to cull the bad chickens!!!
Whoa, lazy Farmer!
But on top of that the Farmer is letting the Fox decide which chickens are bad!
But that's not all...
The Farmer is not even checking what the Fox is doing! WTF!!!
Glad I'm not a chicken......

--
Rick B.
1. Re:So the Farmer let the Fox by TheGratefulNet · 2011-12-17 05:30 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  and that is precisely why I watch Chicken News.
  it helps keep things fair and balanced..
  (go fowl!)
  
  --
  
  --
  "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Thank you UMG! by wjcofkc · 2011-12-17 05:03 · Score: 4, Funny

I would have never heard of Megaupload if not for the loud bang of you shooting yourself in the foot!

--
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
Megaupload should ammend their claims by Mr.+Shotgun · 2011-12-17 05:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

IANAL but I think UMG's actions would fall under Tortious interference of business. They gamed You Tube's system to have a 4 minute commercial for a semi rival company removed while knowing they had no claim to have it removed. That seems to fit the definition to me, though again IANAL. As for damages, I would think that Megaupload had a Return on investment planned for this commercial and maybe awarding triple that amount would serve to set an example.
Of course they could always use the MAFIAA's math and calculate it as $150,000 * (average video views per day after restoration * days video was taken down). As of 11:05 Dec 17 CST it has had 2,128,913 views for around 2 days of up time. so about 1 million per day. Date of take down was Dec 9th so 6 days down. 1064456.5 view times 6 days down times $150000 MAFIAA statutory damages gives us $958,010,850,000 or almost a trillion dollars. To bad it would never work that way, but if we could apply the same laws to the MAFIAA that they use against everyone else it would be a very, very interesting day.

--
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the (supposed) good of its victims may be the most oppressive
Google smear campaign? by walterbyrd · 2011-12-17 05:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

It sure seems like it. All these articles come out with wildly sensationalist, and misleading, headlines about Google.
And it always turns out that the over-the-top "news" is just google smearing BS.
For example that article about "Google stores credit card information in plain text" and now this. Then that was that article that made such a big fuss about the update time-table for Android phones. And all that was just yesterday.
They played a large part in it by Hentes · 2011-12-17 05:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

Google played no part in the Megaupload takedown
They gave them the tools to remove any video they wish in the first place. This is Google's fault.