Apple Outsources A5 Chip Manufacture ... To Texas

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Apple Outsources A5 Chip Manufacture ... To Texas

Posted by timothy on Saturday December 17, 2011 @09:33AM from the texas-visitor's-guide-free-on-request dept.

Lindan9 writes "In a 9 billion dollar investment, Apple's A5 chips will now be produced in Austin, TX, in a new Samsung factory that is apparently 'the largest-ever foreign investment in Texas.'" According to the article, the factory's been churning out chips since the beginning of this month.

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Asia goes up! by InsightIn140Bytes · 2011-12-17 09:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

US is now officially destination country for cheap outsourcing.
1. Re:Asia goes up! by msauve · 2011-12-17 09:38 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  The 25 employees of the new automated plant will appreciate that fact.
  
  --
  "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
2. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 09:41 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  So will the hundreds in the local construction industry, those in the power industry, transport industry, and the local government who collect property tax.
3. Re:Asia goes up! by InsightIn140Bytes · 2011-12-17 09:44 · Score: 0
  
  As will the Asian investors and companies while they reap more profits and will soon dominate the world.
4. Re:Asia goes up! by msauve · 2011-12-17 09:51 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Construction is temporal. We're trying to _reduce_ energy usage, believe it or not. A billion dollars worth of chips really isn't that much to transport. You're assuming they weren't given massive tax breaks to build the plant there (they were - 100%).
  
  To be fair, it looks like this actually created 500-700 jobs. That's still not what people might expect from a $9 billion plant, so the point of my facetious comment stands.
  
  --
  "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
5. Re:Asia goes up! by samkass · 2011-12-17 09:56 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  1,100 high-tech employees on the processor side of the fab, and more than that on the flash memory side. A $3.6 billion construction project. Yes, I'd say they will appreciate it.
  
  --
  E pluribus unum
6. Re:Asia goes up! by durrr · 2011-12-17 10:03 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  The numbers of jobs created should be ~10 of "mostly useless emergency supervisors"
  But of course, given the trend of politics-driven inflation and wage-stomping movement seen in general in the US you could probably create ~20000 jobs at $1/hour(counting 1970 equivalent USD) in a year or two.
  China 2.0 bitches, enjoy nation-wide degeneration.
7. Re:Asia goes up! by NicknameOne · 2011-12-17 10:06 · Score: 0
  
  Didn't you have anything to say that bashes Google in this thread? I'm afraid you won't be getting your 99 cents this week. -- Your boss
8. Re:Asia goes up! by should_be_linear · 2011-12-17 10:08 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Wall Street: "$9b here? Are you fcking nuts?".
  Samsung: "We believe in american workforce!"
  Wall Street: "OK, so you ARE crazy... what the hell is wrong with China"
  Samsung: "No way, they wouldn't follow even basic environmental and working conditions. We are getting out of there"
  Wall Street: "NOOOOOOO!"
  
  --
  839*929
9. Re:Asia goes up! by marnues · 2011-12-17 10:27 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I'm not reducing my energy. I'm using it smarter and expecting it cleaner. I have no plans to give up my electrical appliances, nor will I unless the need actually arises. And that need will not come.
10. Re:Asia goes up! by allanw · 2011-12-17 10:41 · Score: 2
  
  There's semiconductor fab companies that manufacture the wafers in the USA, but still ship them to Asia for packaging and testing, which requires less labor skill and investment. See this Micron video for instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvf29R7nXlM
11. Re:Asia goes up! by Pax681 · 2011-12-17 10:41 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  1,100 high-tech employees on the processor side of the fab, and more than that on the flash memory side. A $3.6 billion construction project. Yes, I'd say they will appreciate it.
  not just that if you actually look it's more
  
  The 1.6 million square foot factory cost $3.6bn, but the total investment is closer to $9bn, according to Austin Chamber of Commerce, making it the largest-ever foreign investment in Texas. According to Reuters, the fab ramped up to full production at the beginning of December.
  that's a fair wad of cash injected into the local economy and not an investment to be sniffed at at all.
  Reuters has an article on it HERE
12. Re:Asia goes up! by Ruie · 2011-12-17 10:42 · Score: 1
  
  To be fair, it looks like this actually created 500-700 jobs. That's still not what people might expect from a $9 billion plant, so the point of my facetious comment stands.
  But, suppose each person costs the company $200K on average (with the salary being $100K), then each employee is responsible for $20M worth of equipment - a factor of 100 over what they are paid in a year. This is actually quite reasonable and what you would expect for the society.
  It also makes sense from economic standpoint - the equipment depreciates and the cost to have an employee maintain it can be factored in. If it is substantially more than 1% then you are more in the service business rather than manufacturing.
13. Re:Asia goes up! by sgt+scrub · 2011-12-17 10:44 · Score: 2
  
  [snark] What? Ten of them are from the U.S! Considering the tax payers only had to pay 80% of the cost of the plant (bonds) to get them to hire that many it isn't
  THAT bad of a deal. Besides. Perry, through friends, made a nice chunk of cash. [/snark]
  
  --
  Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
14. Re:Asia goes up! by Trepidity · 2011-12-17 10:52 · Score: 1
  
  Depends on how much of that was actually paid for by Texas with "incentives" to bring the plant, I suppose.
  
  --
  10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
15. Re:Asia goes up! by JustOK · 2011-12-17 11:05 · Score: 1
  
  half as fast as a conductor factory?
  
  --
  rewriting history since 2109
16. Re:Asia goes up! by erroneus · 2011-12-17 11:08 · Score: 2
  
  This is Texas we're talking about. The property tax will likely be at the "agricultural rate" because they will have a few head of cattle living on the manufacturing campus like Exxon does... in fact, they'll probably be Texas Longhorn cattle and they will end up with a tax credit.
  When Apple starts moving the actual assembly of their iDevices to the US, I might be more impressed. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see SOMETHING being made in the U.S. and I hope more is made here too.
17. Re:Asia goes up! by Ihmhi · 2011-12-17 11:08 · Score: 2
  
  local government who collect property tax.
  The standard sweetheart deal is no property tax for the first 5-50 years depending on how good the negotiators are on either side.
  Then usually the plant/stadium/etc. is "getting old" and a new one "needs" to be built somewhere. Maybe somewhere that's willing to offer a tax break...
  Granted they do help create jobs in an area, but it's sort of foolishly wasted on certain things. A supermarket, for instance, will never really go away - it will just likely be bought out by a competitor. One building in my neighborhood has changed hands four times in the last 30 or so years. First it was an A&P. Then, Pathmark had no problem buying a ready-made store. Then Pathmark moved to a bigger lot next door (way bigger, in fact - they had it purpose-built for their store) and National Wholesale Liquidators came in. Then NWL went bankrupt and now Save Smart occupies the space.
  No matter how you cut it, I can practically guarantee that you'll get 50+ years out of a good grocery store - even if it isn't always with the same owner. It is way easier to attract A&P, Kroger, Stop & Shop, etc. to come and build a store in an empty building than it is to get a sports team to come in and occupy an empty stadium.
  
  --
  Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
18. Re:Asia goes up! by Ihmhi · 2011-12-17 11:12 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  And from the inevitable bootleg Chinese dub with bad English subtitling:
  
  Wall Street: "$9 thousand million dolars?!?".
  Samsung: "We make believe American workforce is believe!"
  Wall Street: "Your brain works no good anymore. China is glorious and wonderful!"
  Samsung: "No left, they wouldn't lead to good empirical working conditions. We are leaving timely now."
  Wall Street: "DO NOT WANT"
  
  --
  Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
19. Re:Asia goes up! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2011-12-17 11:18 · Score: 1
  
  My enthusiasm for parsing legalese waned too quickly to look up all the details for all the involved parties; but it looks like Samsung is certainly not being sent away empty-handed...
  
  The city of Austin's agreement is one part, and looks like some rather nice tax 'incentives' and procedural waivers(two decades worth of municipal tax breaks, a variety of free infrastructure upgrades). Apparently the county, state, and school district(?!?) also have their own packages.
  
  I, for one, would like to thank the citizens of Texas for subsidizing my semiconductor purchases!
20. Re:Asia goes up! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2011-12-17 11:24 · Score: 1
  
  Thankfully, government 'job creation' spending is neither wasteful, nor evil, no matter what the cost ends up being, even if extraordinarily larger than the salary(just ask the local chamber of commerce to haul out the multiplier effect and solve the little numerical problem), if you launder the funds through a corporation.
  
  Direct payments are, depending on how you structure them, either wasteful big government bloat, or evil welfare; but obtaining them through 'public-private partnerships' or 'development incentives' is a fine and salubrious custom. Plus, it is equally acceptable to those who would rather not have the state turned into a feed-trough for assorted multinationals and those who would prefer that the competitive market not be distorted by substantial subsidies to some players but not others!
  
  Just be glad that it actually produces something, unlike a shiny new stadium...
21. Re:Asia goes up! by Drakino · 2011-12-17 11:33 · Score: 1
  
  Their Mac Pro towers are assembled in the US (as seen on the bottom label from a 2008, 2009 and 2010 model). I wonder how much of that workstation cost is assembly, vs the high priced server level hardware.
22. Re:Asia goes up! by Threni · 2011-12-17 11:44 · Score: 1
  
  That need might well come if your power bills go up 3000% in the next 10 years, your disposable income plummets and the cost of pointless new gadgets (phones, tablets, consoles) rises exponentially. You'd give it all up in a heartbeat.
23. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-17 11:46 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  wage-stomping movement seen in general in the US
  It's called Supply And Demand: when (a) the supply of labor jumped by 2 billion as the result of India and China turning their countries semi-capitalist and open to foreign investment, and (b) the demand for labor drops due to automation, the natural wage rate must and does drop like a stone. Combine this with the extra costs incurred from environmental and workplace safety laws, and it's no wonder that the number of industrial jobs in the US has plummeted.
  The smart person accepts this fact and adjusts him/herself accordingly (either by living with a lower wage or doing what it takes to have a higher-paying job).
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
24. Re:Asia goes up! by rtaylor · 2011-12-17 12:02 · Score: 2
  
  Even solar is lower than that.
  Sure, might have to run the dish/clothes washers during the day but I'll gladly pay $10 per load for each of them.
  
  --
  Rod Taylor
25. Re:Asia goes up! by grainofsand · 2011-12-17 12:16 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I have been to manufacturing centres (we used to call them factories) and I can promise you we do not want them back nor the jobs.
  When ever I hear someone talking about the loss of manufacturing jobs, especially no-skill or low-skill jobs, I ask them if they hope their own children will one day work in such a job. They always say no.
  Working in a no-skill / low-skill job in a factory is awful. We should not want any part of our labour market filling jobs like those.
  
  --
  A dream is good. A plan is better.
26. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 12:28 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  The article states that there are ~1100 jobs created out of this. I work in the semiconductor manufacturing industry (major competitor to Samsung) and can tell you that of those 1100 jobs my estimate is that >600 of those are college graduates (engineers of some kind mostly) and I would estimate that there are probably ~100 PhDs. With a state of the art facility that cost $9bn you can bet that there are lots of technical hurdles that are constantly springing up especially as new products are being manufactured in the factory. The part of the manufacturing that requires lots of low cost, low skilled labor is the assembly portion which is still occurring in Asia but wafer manufacturing, especially on a cutting edge process, requires lots of very technically skilled labor. This is why Samsung built their wafer factory in Austin where there is a large supply of technical college graduates.
27. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 12:30 · Score: 0
  
  and the local government who collect property tax.
  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one!
28. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 12:30 · Score: 1
  
  People love to give Texas shit but the fact remains, Texas is the number two technology state. Austin, Dallas, and Houston all have very strong technology bases. Austin is a party-college town ranging from old money to nude hippies. Dallas has old money to new money with lots of plastic, wanna be New York style and attitude. And while the later may sound like a negative, if you like living in a big city with lots of empty, shallow, keep up with the Jones-materialism, as is the massive pull of New York City, Dallas will very much speak to you; or scream at you if you miss New York. Without a doubt, if you like people and technology, Austin and Houston are very strong technology cities; whereby from a weather perspective, Austin slightly pulls ahead in the running.
29. Re:Asia goes up! by erroneus · 2011-12-17 12:40 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Actually, I say "yes." Such jobs aren't meant to be careers. They are a means to getting where you want to be next. When I was young, I did non-career work to keep myself going until I could get where I wanted to be. But where I came from, "fast food" was almost all there was.
  And people entering the workforce in the career of their choice aren't usually the best as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I have a young trainee right now who never comes to work on time and I find it more than a little annoying. But since I am training her to take my place so I can relocate myself to another office, I'm not going to complain. This is her first job and she's not off to a great start exactly. Had she started off doing "lower work" she might have developed a better work ethic and an appreciation for the type of work she's doing now.
  I could go on about "kids today" and their poor work ethic and all that, but I think that situation doesn't need any elaboration as it pretty much speaks for itself. But at least my two older sons are doing things the way I would prefer them to do. My oldest worked long and hard at "Whataburger" and is now well on his way to being a nuclear engineer. My second son is currently working his ass off at a fabric/craft store to save money for college. I couldn't be more proud of them.
  We need more young people in the work force working these types of jobs. It's not just good for the economy, it's good for our work force at all levels.
30. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 12:40 · Score: 1
  
  So what to do with the people who aren't capable of being physicists, engineers, or any of the other jobs that aren't somehow beneath your dignity? Do they sit around unemployed because there are no jobs that they're capable of performing or do we just outsource them as well?
31. Re:Asia goes up! by Opportunist · 2011-12-17 12:41 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  But with a wage rate plummeting like a stone, demand for goods is not far behind. Ya know, demand for goods ain't just "what people want". It's also, and at least as important, "what people can afford".
  And "doing what's necessary to get a higher-paying job" isn't going to cut it either. Because if everyone does it... well, can you guess it?
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
32. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 12:41 · Score: 1
  
  Not really. The point is the $9 billion pumped into the local economy.
  Plus you're ignoring the multiplier effect.
33. Re:Asia goes up! by Nick_13ro · 2011-12-17 12:42 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  My enthusiasm for parsing legalese waned too quickly to look up all the details for all the involved parties; but it looks like Samsung is certainly not being sent away empty-handed... The city of Austin's agreement is one part, and looks like some rather nice tax 'incentives' and procedural waivers(two decades worth of municipal tax breaks, a variety of free infrastructure upgrades). Apparently the county, state, and school district(?!?) also have their own packages. I, for one, would like to thank the citizens of Texas for subsidizing my semiconductor purchases!
  :) Coming from a country that used to subsidize everything I can tell you tax breaks is not subsidizing. A subsidy is giving money taxed or borrowed from somewhere else to some deadbeat factory that would otherwise go bankrupt the following month- the fact that said factory is never expected to pay any sort of tax or social security contribution just goes without saying. :)
34. Re:Asia goes up! by grainofsand · 2011-12-17 12:52 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Structural unemployment is indeed a natural consequence of the move from primary to secondary and then from secondary to tertiary economies.
  Provide for those who do not neatly fit into the result of the transition and stop demonising unemployment.
  
  --
  A dream is good. A plan is better.
35. Re:Asia goes up! by RightSaidFred99 · 2011-12-17 13:09 · Score: 1
  
  I, for one, would like to thank the citizens of Texas for subsidizing my semiconductor purchases!
  Yeah, I'm sure Texas just gives those incentives because they're what, stupid? Altruistic? No - they and the rest of the world that gives these incentives understand that in the end it comes out as a big win for their local economy.
36. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-17 13:26 · Score: 0
  
  But with a wage rate plummeting like a stone, demand for goods is not far behind. Ya know, demand for goods ain't just "what people want". It's also, and at least as important, "what people can afford".
  One word: debt. (Both personal and public.)
  
  And "doing what's necessary to get a higher-paying job" isn't going to cut it either. Because if everyone does it... well, can you guess it?
  Except that not everyone does it. From the number of OWS and pro-Union Ohioan whiners, I'd say that it's a definite minority who successfully adjust.
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
37. Re:Asia goes up! by the+eric+conspiracy · 2011-12-17 13:33 · Score: 1
  
  20 year incentive plan including no taxes for first 10 years.
38. Re:Asia goes up! by stephanruby · 2011-12-17 13:46 · Score: 1
  
  The number is 1,100 according to the article. That's still a pretty low number. I wonder if those chips will get shipped to China for assembly.
39. Re:Asia goes up! by Tweezak · 2011-12-17 13:47 · Score: 1
  
  not to mention local retailers, restaurants, electricians, riggers, machinists, plumbers/pipefitters, custodial services, cafeteria workers, etcetera etcetera.
  I work for the only large corporate employer in a smallish town and there are so many ways that it helps the local economy aside from the money earned by the people employed by that company. There are so many trades that work under contract at our site I can't even name them all. If we closed shop the impact would be huge.
40. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 13:50 · Score: 0
  
  Wall Street: "$9b here? Are you fcking nuts?".
  Samsung: "We believe in american workforce!"
  Wall Street: "OK, so you ARE crazy... what the hell is wrong with China"
  Samsung: "No way, they wouldn't follow even basic environmental and working conditions. We are getting out of there"
  Wall Street: "NOOOOOOO!"
  Samsung is Korean, not Chinese.
41. Re:Asia goes up! by Trepidity · 2011-12-17 13:58 · Score: 1
  
  Short-termist, for the most part: politicians give incentives that are economically stupid, because they want to be able to advertise how many jobs they've brought to Texas in their next reelection campaign.
  
  --
  10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
42. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 14:09 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Unfortunately, your definition of "successfully adjusting", is indistinguishable from "starving". You can't "successfully adjust" to lower wages without limit. At some point, rational actors will seek other means than "successfully adjusting", in order to maintain their...well...lives. You can certainly make the case that a large segment of the population could take a pay cut without severe repercussions - right now. You can't make the case that people can (or would) adjust to an income stream that falls below the cost of living. Protip: You cannot survive in America on the salary a Chinese worker makes.
  We artificially manipulate supply and demand all the time. This is why fizzy sugared water - which is NOT particularly rare - sells for dozens of times the cost to make it. It's why we have unions and anti-trust laws, and patents, and tariffs. The "law"of supply and demand is grade-school economics, sufficient until you realize that demand is usually adjusted without altering quality OR supply. How? Think about it during the next commercial break.
43. Re:Asia goes up! by danbuter · 2011-12-17 14:15 · Score: 1
  
  That's the part many forget, especially those who say the economy is recovering. Wall Street is recovering. The average person has much less money to buy things, though, compared to four years ago.
44. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 14:29 · Score: 1
  
  So will the hundreds in the local construction industry, those in the power industry, transport industry, and the local government who collect property tax.
  Emphasis mine.
  
  I would just like to point out that from Statesman.com
  
  Travis County and the Manor Independent School District — which both agreed to give Samsung property tax rebates of 80 percent for 20 years under the incentives agreement
  
  There are pros and cons, but lets stop kidding ourselves that companies pay their 'fair' share of taxes.
45. Re:Asia goes up! by dbIII · 2011-12-17 14:34 · Score: 1
  
  Korean companies also have things built in China.
  There's also the very disturbing idea of a slave labour industrial park just inside North Korea to be used by South Korean companies but I'm not sure how far that has progressed. Perhaps it's just a deluded North Korean idea of a good path towards peace.
46. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 14:47 · Score: 1
  
  The smart person accepts this fact and adjusts him/herself accordingly (either by living with a lower wage or doing what it takes to have a higher-paying job).
  Unfortunately the dumb person just burns your house down because they are hungry.
47. Re:Asia goes up! by PopeRatzo · 2011-12-17 14:55 · Score: 2
  
  So will the hundreds in the local construction industry, those in the power industry, transport industry, and the local government who collect property tax.
  I'm guessing that the tax subsidies that Apple got were worth a lot more than the property taxes Apple would pay to the local government.
  No big corporation is going to build a plant or bring any jobs anywhere in the US unless the local government cuts a vein for them. I don't care if it's Apple or Wal-Mart or Sears or Ford. They go to whichever local government makes them the sweetest deal to avoid paying a penny in taxes to the community.
  Didn't the Florida Marlins just blackmail the local government into building them an $800million stadium? Sears just threatened to leave Chicago unless they got $150mil in tax relief. The Chicago Mercantile Exchange did the same.
  In the 21st century, when a company builds a plant in the US or creates jobs, they are the ones enjoying the biggest benefit.
  
  --
  You are welcome on my lawn.
48. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 15:05 · Score: 0
  
  From all the comments I see about lame management, I have hypothesized that most of it probably stems from them never having a significant job while going to college--they graduate (with an MBA) and go directly into management. A person from these circumstances should never make a decision that affects real people. It used to be that CEOs started in the mail room, now they enter the company with a masters degree (which in and of itself seems to do something to a person's mind) and join a management team.
49. Re:Asia goes up! by Megane · 2011-12-17 15:09 · Score: 1
  
  It could be worse. Go 100 miles south and you can get all kinds of tax breaks for building an new hotel... in the center of a tourist and convention district!
  
  --
  #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
50. Re:Asia goes up! by Ol+Olsoc · 2011-12-17 15:10 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  wage-stomping movement seen in general in the US
  It's called Supply And Demand: when (a) the supply of labor jumped by 2 billion as the result of India and China turning their countries semi-capitalist and open to foreign investment, and (b) the demand for labor drops due to automation, the natural wage rate must and does drop like a stone.
  Wise sir, you show the true path to prosperity. Make wages as low as possible, and reduce American's living standards to a third world country. Only when we are all poor, shall we all be rich. And this is why post modern conservatism is closely related to communism - many conservatives actually want us to emulate China, with their wages, environmental outlook, and corporate ideology.
  
  --
  The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
51. Re:Asia goes up! by Ol+Olsoc · 2011-12-17 15:14 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  This is the odd thing coming out of some folks now. We are supposed to embrace our newfound poverty.
  Let's all hope for hopelessness, for that is the only path of hope.
  
  --
  The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
52. Re:Asia goes up! by stabiesoft · 2011-12-17 15:24 · Score: 1
  
  I think they also got a break on their electric rate. The city has just decided it needs a giant residential and low usage commercial rate increase. They are starting with raising the connection rate from $6.50/mo to $22/mo. I've not heard what the cents/kwh will be yet. Dunno how I feel about subsidizing samsung's electric bill along with their property tax bill.
53. Re:Asia goes up! by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-12-17 15:43 · Score: 0
  
  So what you're saying that the American 99% will get a bit richer, at a price of Korean (or Chinese, or whatever) 1% getting a lot richer instead of the local 1%.
  The first part sounds like a win, and I don't think the second part is of any concern.
54. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-17 15:45 · Score: 1
  
  Make wages as low as possible,
  Except that it was the Chinese and Indian leaders who made the decisions to open their economies, not greedy American industrialists.
  
  and reduce American's living standards to a third world country.
  That's like blaming the Sun for melting the snowman.
  
  Only when we are all poor, shall we all be rich.
  WTF?
  
  And this is why post modern conservatism is closely related to communism - many conservatives actually want us to emulate China, with their wages, environmental outlook, and corporate ideology.
  How could anyone be so stupid as to confuse communism with fascism?
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
55. Re:Asia goes up! by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-12-17 15:47 · Score: 1
  
  Working in a no-skill / low-skill job in a factory is awful. We should not want any part of our labour market filling jobs like those.
  With such an arrangement, who will make all the things that go bang and boom, and let the rest of us who work a nice air-conditioned office keep our jobs, our wealth, and our lives as they are?
56. Re:Asia goes up! by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-12-17 15:49 · Score: 1
  
  Perhaps this is why Samsung stock is only traded on the Korean stock exchange, and not in U.S.
57. Re:Asia goes up! by grainofsand · 2011-12-17 16:17 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know who will but I hope that it won't be mine and your children (and so do you).
  
  --
  A dream is good. A plan is better.
58. Re:Asia goes up! by mgblst · 2011-12-17 16:30 · Score: 1
  
  Construction is temporal. We're trying to _reduce_ energy usage, believe it or not.
  Who is we? What fucking world do you live on, where more than a few people are trying to reduce energy usage? Time to wake up chuckles.
59. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 16:56 · Score: 0
  
  YM
  s/"successfully adjust"/"eat cake"
  HAND
60. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 17:08 · Score: 0
  
  Supermarket can and do go away. My city is split by a river, on one side of town, there are no Supermarkets, the only place to get food is from minimarts in Gas stations, unless you drive to the other side of town. We are getting a couple new supermarkets, but only on the side of town that has them now. I would never call myself a conservative but I don't have a problem with tax breaks, if they employee a few hundred jobs, I have seen two companies that wanted to build locally in the past 5 years but skipped my town because people around the one plant didn't want them and the other because a different town gave them a better tax break. It would have meant over 2500 jobs.
61. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 17:10 · Score: 0
  
  Except that most people like to feel like they're being put to use, that they're doing something that matters. Even if I were able to readily find a job which fits with my skill set, the sort of existence where I would be provided with something for being perpetually unemployed would be...less than fulfilling.
  You'd better watch out, promoting ideas like these--the old maxim about idle hands rings true. People who can't make a living, even if they want to, but have to fall back to some public subsidy are bound to do things you might not like once they escape the wage-slave drudgery which keeps so many of us occupied.
  Besides, it's the ones who don't like to be put to use that really ought to be providing for themselves, but they're also the first at big brother's tit.
62. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 17:15 · Score: 1
  
  Absolute rubbish with no evidence to support. It is the role of the State to provide for those that are on the margins. When the State does that correctly we all benefit.
  Over the past 20 years I have interviewed literally thousands of factory workers and not one of them ever said they felt they were doing something useful. They mainly did agree they were being used, but not in the good way you meant.
  We all benefit from living and working in the tertiary sector but there are some that will not find work in such an economy. We must therefore help those people in compassionate and meaningful ways. Putting them to work in factories is neither compassionate nor meaningful.
63. Re:Asia goes up! by Turbine2k5 · 2011-12-17 17:23 · Score: 1
  
  So where are you going with this? Do you mean "provide" by means of something like social security?
  
  --
  I can't think of a good sig, so I'll pirate yours.
64. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 17:35 · Score: 1
  
  Not everyone can be a surgeon, lawyer, computer programmer. Sorry I have known many people who there best lot in life will be emptying the garbage cans at some industrial park. They just are not that smart (or motivated). There are whole segments of our population that will never even desire to be better. No manner of motivation will inspire them. They do not care to be better.
  What you are saying is those people do not deserve a job. You would rather have them live off the dole of gov subsides. As that is all they will ever do. You would be surprised to see what many are willing to live with. I know many who are on 'disability' that are fully capable of work. But they do not care anymore.
  No one hopes to work a job like that. But they are glad they exist when they cant get any other kind...
65. Re:Asia goes up! by Guy+Harris · 2011-12-17 17:52 · Score: 2
  
  So what you're saying that the American 99% will get a bit richer, at a price of Korean (or Chinese, or whatever) 1% getting a lot richer instead of the local 1%.
  Well, I wouldn't go quite that far; see my other reply - an Indian-American member of the local 1%, along with an all-American member of the local 1%, and other members of the local 1% will probably get richer as well (for "local" defined as "the U.S." - and, at least for those two, you could probably define it as "Manhattan Island").
66. Re:Asia goes up! by Guy+Harris · 2011-12-17 18:01 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not reducing my energy. I'm using it smarter
  That combination presumably translates to at least "I'm reducing the growth rate of my energy usage" or perhaps "I'm keeping my energy use steady by wasting less but using more in a non-wasteful fashion".
  
  I have no plans to give up my electrical appliances
  "Reducing my energy (usage)" does not ipso facto mean "giving up my electrical appliances". It might, however, mean, for example, "unplugging the flat-screen TeeVee if you're not actually watching something" (which I do primarily because the alternative is to have extension cords across the floor; some day I'll have to get or rent one of those plug-it-into-the-current-path electricity meters and see how much of a difference that would actually make).
67. Re:Asia goes up! by 4phun · 2011-12-17 18:20 · Score: 1
  
  I have been to manufacturing centres (we used to call them factories) and I can promise you we do not want them back nor the jobs.
  When ever I hear someone talking about the loss of manufacturing jobs, especially no-skill or low-skill jobs, I ask them if they hope their own children will one day work in such a job. They always say no.
  Working in a no-skill / low-skill job in a factory is awful. We should not want any part of our labour market filling jobs like those.
  Isn't Texas close to a large supply of cheap labor that can come from, wait for it, wait for it,.... Mexico?
68. Re:Asia goes up! by Guy+Harris · 2011-12-17 18:22 · Score: 1
  
  Perhaps this is why Samsung stock is only traded on the Korean stock exchange, and not in U.S.
  So what happens if you replace "Wall Street" with "The City"? :-) (Samsung GDRs are traded on the London Stock Exchange.)
69. Re:Asia goes up! by swalve · 2011-12-17 18:27 · Score: 1
  
  Thank God for Rick Perry, finally making Texas competitive.
  
  Said a Texan to a non Texan, "Yep, Texas has led the country in job creation. Hell, I'm working three of them!"
70. Re:Asia goes up! by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-12-17 18:30 · Score: 1
  
  Here I was, making a witty reply, and you just had to come with your prooflinks and other such factual nonsense.
  And a 4-digit UID to boot. I can't even ask you if you're new here. Damn.
71. Re:Asia goes up! by swalve · 2011-12-17 18:33 · Score: 1
  
  Wall Street can't recover unless Main Street is buying their shit. The average wage might be sort of flat over the last 4 years, but it has doubled in the last 20.
72. Re:Asia goes up! by swalve · 2011-12-17 18:37 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, it isn't like the US isn't the world's largest manufacturer. Oh, wait...
73. Re:Asia goes up! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2011-12-17 18:43 · Score: 1
  
  I, for one, would like to thank the citizens of Texas for subsidizing my semiconductor purchases!
  Yeah, I'm sure Texas just gives those incentives because they're what, stupid? Altruistic? No - they and the rest of the world that gives these incentives understand that in the end it comes out as a big win for their local economy.
  I certainly wouldn't accuse them of altruism, and only some of them of stupidity:
  
  'Incentives' are, indeed, a very good way of obtaining a package of immediate and visible benefits in exchange for a package of costs that is generally relatively small up front and packs most of its punch in indirect or time-deferred costs. Politically, it's a great deal. Economically, the suggestions that it is a good idea are equivocal at best, negative at worst.
74. Re:Asia goes up! by Guy+Harris · 2011-12-17 18:48 · Score: 1
  
  Don't feel bad - perhaps I'm misjudging the other big Anglo-Saxon financial center, but I suspect replacing "Wall Street" with "the City" would only require also replacing "fcking nuts" and "crazy" with "barking mad". :-)
75. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 20:07 · Score: 1
  
  "People love to give Texas shit". Texas is doing pretty well, I'd say.
  Texas doesn't have a brain dead legislature like California that causes a company to leave the state every two days. There is still a lot of venture capital in California, but the state senate wants to "fix" that too.
76. Re:Asia goes up! by Dhalka226 · 2011-12-17 20:30 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  When ever I hear someone talking about the loss of manufacturing jobs, especially no-skill or low-skill jobs, I ask them if they hope their own children will one day work in such a job. They always say no.
  Of course nobody wants their child to be a factory worker. They are all meant to grow up and be president or win the Superbowl.
  Now ask them if they would like jobs to be available when reality hits and it turns out that little Johnny is going to be in the majority of Americans who never have a high-paying job or a nice office. Ask if they have enough tucked away in that retirement fund (what, no retirement fund?!) to support 40 year old Johnny because, gosh, he's too good for that kind of work!
  Nobody wants their kid to have a job like that. Nobody should want their kid to have a job like that. But it's a hell of a lot better than long-term unemployment. Service jobs and intellectual property can only employ so many people, and it's only going to get worse.
77. Re:Asia goes up! by pngai · 2011-12-17 20:31 · Score: 1
  
  You seem to be assuming that all of the money was spent locally but I suspect a lot of expensive machines in the fab were purchased from outside of Austin.
78. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 20:54 · Score: 0
  
  I have been to manufacturing centres (we used to call them factories) and I can promise you we do not want them back nor the jobs.
  When ever I hear someone talking about the loss of manufacturing jobs, especially no-skill or low-skill jobs, I ask them if they hope their own children will one day work in such a job. They always say no.
  Working in a no-skill / low-skill job in a factory is awful. We should not want any part of our labour market filling jobs like those.
  Yes much better for people to have no jobs at all. After all these poor scum don't deserve a job, they should all just go to college with the great money they make at fast food restaurants, and retail outlets selling Chinese crap.
  Fear not these companies won't stay here long, they will go to the next third world country that uses child labor and or slave labor. Or perhaps they went to Texas in hopes that the Gingrich plan to remove child labor laws will see the light of day,
79. Re:Asia goes up! by Kohath · 2011-12-17 20:54 · Score: 1
  
  In the 21st century, when a company builds a plant in the US or creates jobs, they are the ones enjoying the biggest benefit.
  So the people spending all the money and doing all the work are getting "the biggest benefit"? What's the world coming to?!
  What's next, farmers being allowed to eat some of the food they grow?
80. Re:Asia goes up! by J-1000 · 2011-12-17 21:11 · Score: 1
  
  But with a wage rate plummeting like a stone, demand for goods is not far behind.
  Domestic demand for goods, yes. International demand for goods, no. Those foreigners making more money are spending more too.
81. Re:Asia goes up! by FrkyD · 2011-12-17 21:11 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  No. It hasn't.
  
  Even the highest fifth (top 20%) has averaged less than what had previously been average GPA growth rate over the prior 40 years of a little over 3%. And the bottom half of the top 20% did poorly, because the top 1% did so well that it raised the average for the top 20%. That means that over the past 30 years only people roughly within the top 10% were able to realize any growth in real income.
  Robert Reich puts it this way:
  The wages of the typical American hardly increased in the three decades leading up to the Crash of 2008, considering inflation. In the 2002, they actually dropped. According to the Census Bureau, in 2007 a male worker earning the median male wage (that is, smack in the middle, with as many men earning more than he did as earning less) took home just over $45,000. Considering inflation, this was less than the typical male worker earned thirty years before. * * * But the American economy was much larger in 2007 than it was 30 years before. If those gains had been divided equally among Americans, the typical American would be more than 60 percent better off than he actually was by 2007. [6]
  
  You can read some more here: http://acivilamericandebate.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/the-30-year-growth-of-income-inequality/
82. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 21:48 · Score: 0
  
  bravo!
83. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 22:03 · Score: 0
  
  Paraphrased: advertisements affect demand, betcha didn't think of that, did ya?
84. Re:Asia goes up! by unkiereamus · 2011-12-17 22:55 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  "mostly useless emergency supervisors".
  Honestly, I couldn't quite parse your entire comment, let alone this particular bit, but taking my best guess as to what you meant by this statement, I felt the need to respond.
  
  I am a paramedic, almost the very definition of an emergency worker (though firefighters might come closer to the mark), we are staffed to the level that actuarial types say we can reasonably be expected to be needed. Note the emphasis. When I worked in the states, I spent roughly 25-50% of my time doing a) shit all and b) nothing...watching TV, surfing the web, etc.
  
  What I'm getting at, though, is that emergencies happen, and they cost a lot of money when they do, though that cost can be mitigated by having someone properly prepared to meet the emergency.
  
  While I personally have no aptitude for that particular sort of number-crunching, I can respect it, and if the actuarial types are doing their jobs right, even if I spend 99.9% of my time sitting with my thumb up my ass, in that last 0.1% of the time, having me, a trained and prepared emergency responder able to cope with the emergency saves the company (or in my case, the government/society at large) enough money to justify my salary for the other 99.9% of the time.
  
  Emergency personnel aren't "mostly useless", we're "(sometimes) mostly idle", there's a difference.
  
  --
  I needed a sig so people would know who I am, but I was too drunk to make something witty, so you get this instead.
85. Re:Asia goes up! by sjames · 2011-12-17 23:12 · Score: 1
  
  Or by altering the economic system to reflect properly it's purpose of serving the people.
86. Re:Asia goes up! by sociocapitalist · 2011-12-17 23:21 · Score: 1
  
  It would be interesting to know:
  - what percentage of the $9bn is/was actually spent on US made products (ie robotics)
  - what percentage of the new jobs are actually high tech and what percentage are low to no skill level
  - how many of the new high skill and management jobs are to be filled by Americans
  Not that I'm criticizing. I think that manufacturing needs to return to the US before the economy can truly begin to recover.
  On the other hand, if most of the jobs are low to no skill part time low pay no benefits I'm not sure how much long term good this project will bring.
  
  --
  blindly antisocialist = antisocial
87. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-17 23:39 · Score: 1
  
  ROTFLMAO
  Tell me what economic system successfully "serves the people"?
  Don't say Sweden: even it's 60 year social compact is crumbling under the weight of excessive benefits and too much immigration altering the "human" half of the implied social contract.
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
88. Re:Asia goes up! by msobkow · 2011-12-17 23:40 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  You can't survive on what some immigrant workers accept for pay, either. High living cost areas in the US and Canada are notorious for painting their wages as "high", and they are, relative to the poorer areas some immigrant labour comes from. I mean economic immigrant to a "high pay" area, not necessarily a foreigner.
  But when they get there, they find themselves forced to room with several people to get by, living in conditions no better than they did at home in order to send a significant chunk of their pay home. It's the tech equivalent of the "Alberta Oilsands Lifestyle" -- long hours, brutal living expenses, and relatively high pay for short periods followed by trips home to survive unemployment while looking for the next contract.
  However, they already get paid less than a "local" worker with a house, family, tuition expenses, healthcare expenses, etc. at the high local costs can afford to. The "immigrants" come from areas where most of their costs of living are lower.
  I've lost count of how many times I've had to abandon a market because the cheap immigrant labour companies swamped the market at cut-throat rates. Then along came actual overseas outsourcing, and even those jobs disappeared entirely.
  It may be supply and demand, but the cheap supply markets show no mercy on the countries with the demand. The only saving grace we have is that many of the cheap overseas sweatshops produce crap, or pad their bills through incompetence and low productivity. Unfortunately it takes management getting burned a few times before they realize that you get what you pay for and start hiring local talent at decent rates again. And the growth of the local talent market is a lot slower than the growth of the doomed project farmed out to the lowest bidder.
  Automation will make the grunt coder obsolete soon enough, the same as it's done to every other low-skilled labourer for millenia. "I'm a programmer" doesn't mean what it used to -- the tools are a lot easier to work with nowadays, and there is a lot more experience that's been documented and reproducible than there used to be 20 years ago.
  No one gets paid to read core dumps any more, and I can't say that I miss that aspect of old style computing at all. Live code editing during a breakpoint rocks for productivity. Similarly, manufactured code is simply more cost effective than manually produced source. It may not be as "elegant", but it works, and works well enough to get the job done. In the end, that's all that matters -- getting the job done.
  It's what everyone gets paid for.
  Except for bank executives and CEOs who rake in bonuses for gutting companies and losing money. I don't know why we pay those people anything at all. They're incompetent and greedy, and bad for the future of any business.
  
  --
  I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
89. Re:Asia goes up! by euroq · 2011-12-17 23:44 · Score: 1
  
  WOW. Where do you get your information, Fox News? It's very well known that the purchasing power of the average middle class American has been stagnant for 20 years.
  Google "inflation". Just because the average American earns around ~45,000 2011 U.S. dollars a year in 2011 doesn't mean that he's ~5X as rich as the person in 1971 who earned ~8,000 1971 U.S. dollars.
  
  --
  Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
90. Re:Asia goes up! by PopeRatzo · 2011-12-18 00:49 · Score: 1
  
  So the people spending all the money and doing all the work are getting "the biggest benefit"? What's the world coming to?!
  Do you believe owning a company is "doing all the work"? I have a nice little pile of Apple stock that I bought some decades ago. Does that mean I'm "doing the work" at Apple?
  Maybe we should define "work"...
  
  What's next, farmers being allowed to eat some of the food they grow?
  You really think you're making a point here? A corporation is an aggregate of capital. It does not eat food. It is not a human being. A farmer growing food may have created a corporation, or not, but he is not a corporation.
  If you really need, let me know and I'll break it down in simpler terms. I think it's important for you to understand the conceptual error you're making, because it's sort of warping your world-view, friend.
  
  --
  You are welcome on my lawn.
91. Re:Asia goes up! by Wovel · 2011-12-18 01:05 · Score: 1
  
  Like Apple's data center, Samsung is paying more in property taxes than the previous landowner. The Tax breaks given to company are discounts over the property taxes on their $9 billion plant. Not for the taxes the previous land owner paid. Why do people think that giving a discount to incent someone to build something in a district means the company is paying no taxes. This is a net gain of millions of dollars per year in property taxes.
92. Re:Asia goes up! by UBfusion · 2011-12-18 01:07 · Score: 1
  
  Could you make an estimate regarding the percentage of these new ~1100 jobs for which the main requirement was fluent knowledge of the Korean language?
93. Re:Asia goes up! by gtall · 2011-12-18 01:19 · Score: 1
  
  You mean Perry's leaving Texas? You must be thrilled.
94. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 02:20 · Score: 0
  
  I have to say, you're spot on with this. I didn't work any fast food jobs prior to and during college, and was glad of it. I would much rather work this type of job, and if I didn't have the means to go to college, would rather stay in this type of job.
95. Re:Asia goes up! by Ihmhi · 2011-12-18 02:23 · Score: 1
  
  Supermarket can and do go away.
  Yes, I know. I didn't say that it was impossible for them to go away. I said that it's far less likely for a supermarket building to sit unused than it is a stadium to sit unused.
  
  --
  Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
96. Re:Asia goes up! by Kohath · 2011-12-18 02:43 · Score: 1
  
  If you really need, let me know and I'll break it down in simpler terms. I think it's important for you to understand the conceptual error you're making, because it's sort of warping your world-view, friend.
  Could you explain it some more?
  When I invest my money in something, I remember where I got the money. It was originally paid to me in my paycheck, which I received in exchange for my work. It seems clear that money and work are inherently connected.
  Also, a company like Apple or Samsung consists of a group of people. Employees and shareholders are people. Even when shares are owned by an organization like a pension fund, that organization still represents the people involved. The money used to purchase the shares was originally earned by someone.
  Are you really saying that Samsung should invest $9 Billion building a fabrication facility, but they shouldn't receive "the biggest benefit" from their investment? Who should Samsung's money and work benefit instead of the people involved in Samsung?
97. Re:Asia goes up! by all204 · 2011-12-18 02:45 · Score: 1
  
  I'd mod you up if I could. I've dealt with this attitude many times. Useless and idle are very different things!
98. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 02:53 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, kids these days. They don't know shit.
  Glad I never was one.
99. Re:Asia goes up! by swalve · 2011-12-18 03:05 · Score: 1
  
  He said money, not purchasing power.
100. Re:Asia goes up! by msauve · 2011-12-18 03:46 · Score: 1
  
  "Why do people think that giving a discount to incent someone to build something in a district means the company is paying no taxes. This is a net gain of millions of dollars per year in property taxes."
  
  How do you figure that (property tax on $9B) - (100% discount) = (millions of dollars)? I'd like to see your math.
  
  --
  "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
101. Re:Asia goes up! by sjames · 2011-12-18 04:11 · Score: 2
  
  Actually, Sweden's economy is in good shape with declining unemployment. They are hardly crumbling. You may be thinking of a period in the early '90s when they were growing slower than the rest of the EU (slower growth, not recession or even stagnation). Much of that has been made back up since, and consistent with their policy of placing security over growth, they have suffered little from the big crash. They have "too much immigration" because the people there are well served by their economy.
  In a world where technology is steadily bringing us the dream of eliminating the need for human labor, your choices are to oppress the masses until they cut your head off, ban technology, or make careful alterations to the economic structure to accommodate the changes. The bury your head in the sand and hope iot goes away strategy is rarely correct.
102. Re:Asia goes up! by trout007 · 2011-12-18 05:06 · Score: 1
  
  The fact your post is moded to a 5 means there is no hope left for this world. The amount of economic ignorance is just too much to be overcome.
  The problem we have today is a combination of 99 weeks of unemployment and a minimum wage. Eliminate both of these and unemployment will disappear. People will have to get jobs at whatever wage they can. At first this will cause a downward pressure on wages. But once full employment is reached then this will stop and start climbing as employers are forced to raise wages to attract new workers. Also with more people working more will be produced. This will increase the supply of good and cause a downward pressure on prices. Nobody can predict where wages and prices will be in a free market but I can say it will bet better. All the current policies do is tax people who produce to pay other people not to produce and prevent people whose skills aren't worth more than an arbitrary wage from producing at all.
  
  --
  I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
103. Re:Asia goes up! by mikael · 2011-12-18 05:36 · Score: 1
  
  I'm imaging that in the style of Jackie Chan movie with a smoky corporate back-office with Wall Street suits on one side and Korean businessmen on the other.
  
  --
  Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
104. Re:Asia goes up! by V!NCENT · 2011-12-18 05:58 · Score: 1
  
  "Maybe self-destruction is the answer" -Chuck Palahniuk (Fight Club, Chapter 6)
  The reason why is obvious; your country (and other western European countries too, actually) has been adjusted to an old welfare situation. That adjustment hasn't changed, but the welfare has, so maybe it's time to break down and start from scratch so we can all adjust more efficiently to the new situation.
  No realy; solar panels for example. They could be more efficeint and cheaper, also catching wind and IR to transform into electrical energy. We could all replace the gaming rig with a tablet and a keyboard (maybe mouse too) and dump our energy sucking plasma TV. Change all light bulbs to LEDS, have cheaper, more efficient homes that passively cool and warm, reducing arico requirements, etc.
  It's needed, even though you're probably not comfortable with it. But twenty years from now everybody will think to themselves "Jeses, why the hell did we throw away perfectly good cloths? What's up with that stupid fashion changing each quarter?", and they would be right.
  
  --
  Here be signatures
105. Re:Asia goes up! by PopeRatzo · 2011-12-18 06:12 · Score: 1
  
  It seems clear that money and work are inherently connected.
  A coal miner works considerably harder than a trust fund baby who collects a sizable income because his parents are rich. Money and work are not "inherently connected". Do you believe your boss works harder than you? Do you believe the CEO of the energy company works harder than the coal miner?
  
  .Are you really saying that Samsung should invest $9 Billion building a fabrication facility, but they shouldn't receive "the biggest benefit" from their investment?
  Not if that benefit comes from every taxpayer having to pay more to cover the tax abatement that Samsung gets for putting their plant in a certain state, county or municipality. If Samsung's business model makes them a profit, that's great, but if the profit is based on them off-loading the externalities, then no, absolutely not.
  
  --
  You are welcome on my lawn.
106. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 06:44 · Score: 0
  
  I didn't read the GP comment the same way you did. I think he was referring more to the "emergency" style of management where routine improvements and rational techniques get completely ignored until an emergency requires an immediate change. These emergencies drive a great percentage of changes in organizations being run by these "emergency supervisors", and result in poor project outcomes and a high level of stress for both the project teams and the department receiving the change.
  My place of work has been involved in a few of these changes and I found it very suprising the recption recieved between: 1: showing a strong improvement over time with a reasonable method; vs. 2. seeing current process will be broken by large project and proposing some broken ugly makeshift solution. Then enterprising young people who can see strong incremental improvements on the new ugly makeshift solution are met with considerable resistance and even denial from the team who created said solution, because it really wasn't their fault that it sucked to begin with.
107. Re:Asia goes up! by Kohath · 2011-12-18 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  A coal miner works considerably harder than a trust fund baby who collects a sizable income because his parents are rich. Money and work are not "inherently connected". Do you believe your boss works harder than you? Do you believe the CEO of the energy company works harder than the coal miner?
  The "trust fund baby" has money because his parents worked. Or their parents. They worked and saved and invested to provide for their children.
  As for the coal miner, he can't do the CEO's job. But the CEO could learn to do the miner's job after a training period. The CEO's work has much more value than the coal miner's work, regardless of whether they're both tired at the end of the day.
  And if the coal miner quits, someone else will be hired to do the coal mining within a short time. A good replacement CEO is harder to find.
  Both the CEO's work and the coal miner's work should be honored and respected. But they don't have equal commercial value.
  
  .Are you really saying that Samsung should invest $9 Billion building a fabrication facility, but they shouldn't receive "the biggest benefit" from their investment?
  Not if that benefit comes from every taxpayer having to pay more to cover the tax abatement that Samsung gets for putting their plant in a certain state, county or municipality. If Samsung's business model makes them a profit, that's great, but if the profit is based on them off-loading the externalities, then no, absolutely not.
  You should post where you live and vote, so companies can add it to the list of places to avoid investing and hiring. Then you won't have to worry about all the money that these employers aren't paying in property taxes.
  Who should receive a bigger benefit than Samsung from Samsung's investments?
108. Re:Asia goes up! by mkremer · 2011-12-18 08:01 · Score: 1
  
  I read that part differently than you.
  I do not believe the comment was directed at paramedics or any other emergency workers.
  Rather that the plant would be full automated to the point that no human is needed for the normal operation of the facility. So not only the production line but also all maintenance and other activities would be automated. The "mostly useless emergency supervisors" would only need to do anything if something unexpected happened that the automation could not handle. We are not any where near that level of automation yet.
109. Re:Asia goes up! by danbuter · 2011-12-18 09:35 · Score: 1
  
  The Fed has been printing money specifically to buy bonds, therefore propping up Wall Street. You and I will never see a dime of it. Also, by money, I meant buying power. I thought that would be obvious, but i guess not.
110. Re:Asia goes up! by phantomfive · 2011-12-18 09:38 · Score: 1
  
  iving in conditions no better than they did at home
  
  Change that, it is typically living in conditions rather worse than they did at home. Add that to the fact that you have to cross a miserable (and dangerous) border, you're away from your family and everyone you know, it's no wonder most people actually decide to stay in their home countries. Life is better there.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
111. Re:Asia goes up! by phantomfive · 2011-12-18 09:45 · Score: 1
  
  Inequality statistics are the easiest to manipulate. There are all kinds of trends that matter that make a huge difference. The statistics in the article you mention are deceiving in two ways: first, they don't take into consideration total compensation. Especially over the last decade, more and more of what people earn goes into company provided healthcare. Healthcare has gotten more expensive as it's improved.
  
  It also fails to take into consideration immigrants. Median income could be easily going up for everybody, but the constant supply of new low wage workers makes it appear to remain the same. After a while, those immigrants make more, but there are new ones to replace them.
  
  Anyway, I'm not saying your point is wrong, just that you have to be very careful to not be tricked by statistics when talking about inequality. Here's an article looking at similar statistics from a different point of view.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
112. Re:Asia goes up! by phantomfive · 2011-12-18 09:50 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, I say "yes." Such jobs aren't meant to be careers. They are a means to getting where you want to be next. When I was young,
  
  Problem is, we don't have enough people to fill that kind of job temporarily here in the US. Either we're going to be outsourcing those jobs, or we're going to bring immigrants into the US to do them. Those are our alternatives.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
113. Re:Asia goes up! by PopeRatzo · 2011-12-18 09:59 · Score: 1
  
  The CEO's work has much more value than the coal miner's work
  Ah, value. Now value and money have an "inherent" connection. But not work.
  
  The CEO's work has much more value than the coal miner's work, regardless of whether they're both tired at the end of the day.
  But how much more "value" does it have? Fifty times? A hundred times? Five hundred times? Do you see how "inherently" arbitrary the notion of "value" becomes when used this way? When the CEO of a major corporation, say HP or Home Depot or Countryside are total failures, lose the company hundreds of millions of dollars and still walk away with a golden parachute worth $20 million, a fixed pension for life (no 401k for them) and another $10 million in stock options, you start to get an idea of what it means when you say that the "work" of the CEO has more "value" than the person on the assembly line or in the field.
  Your "value" is a figment of imagination, just like your "free market". The sad part is that you are almost certainly a wage earner. A worker instead of a capitalist. You have been trained to believe it's noble to take side of people who would piss on your head and call it rain. Who you believe are your "betters". You believe that if you just work hard and don't ask for too much and clap louder that someday you will be invited into the club of people who have the keys to the kingdom.
  Come back and talk to me when the scales fall from your eyes.
  
  --
  You are welcome on my lawn.
114. Re:Asia goes up! by Kohath · 2011-12-18 10:34 · Score: 1
  
  But how much more "value" does it have?
  That's up to the CEO and the company to negotiate. The company is voluntarily choosing to pay their own money. The CEO is voluntarily choosing to work for that pay. It's none of anyone else's business what the amount is. You get to spend your money, the company gets to spend the company's money.
  Exactly the same thing happens with the coal miner. The company is voluntarily choosing to pay their own money. The coal miner is voluntarily choosing to work in exchange. It's none of your business how much the amount is.
  At some companies, the CEO is paid less than some good salesmen. At some other companies, the CEO takes a salary of $1 plus stock options as an incentive to create a turnaround at the company.
  The CEO, the miner, or the star salesman are free to leave at any time if they can get a better offer. It's up to them. They get to decide. Not you.
  Whatever the wage, it's paid in exchange for work.
  --
  You still haven't answered: Who deserves a greater benefit from Samsung's investment spending than Samsung? Why?
115. Re:Asia goes up! by Kohath · 2011-12-18 10:50 · Score: 1
  
  The sad part is that you are almost certainly a wage earner. A worker instead of a capitalist. You have been trained to believe it's noble to take side of people who would piss on your head and call it rain.
  I think the real difference is that I'm not a bigot. I'm not motivated by hatred, like you apparently are.
  I also don't want to steal money from people, nor do I want to spend money I didn't earn.
116. Re:Asia goes up! by unkiereamus · 2011-12-18 13:23 · Score: 1
  
  That makes more sense than what I got out of it. Doesn't change my basic point, but it means that the point I was replying to wasn't the point he was trying to make. He was just railing against the trend towards automation.
  
  Oh, and I knew he wasn't talking about emergency workers in the sense of the word as it applies to me, but I was trying to draw the parallel as best I could.
  
  --
  I needed a sig so people would know who I am, but I was too drunk to make something witty, so you get this instead.
117. Re:Asia goes up! by Ol+Olsoc · 2011-12-18 13:36 · Score: 1
  
  Unfortunately, your definition of "successfully adjusting", is indistinguishable from "starving". You can't "successfully adjust" to lower wages without limit. At some point, rational actors will seek other means than "successfully adjusting", in order to maintain their...well...lives.
  Exactly. That is why that adjusting has to be really self limiting. If profits are increased by reducing wages, it is very tempting to try it again.
  And that is exactly why I'm completely convinced that the path out of our present situation is to work at making people more wealthy. Yet we see way too much that once you ask "what will this do?", the answer is it will reduce wealth.
  And when you make the retired person poor, when you eliminate child labor laws as at least one Presidential candidate wishes, when you reduce average wages or reduce benefits, when you offshore manufacturing and eliminate jobs, you make people poorer.
  The odd short sightedness of this concept is that it ignores a big part of the market equation. If you want to make money selling things, you have to have customers. At what point do people stop buying because they don't have the capital to buy?
  I dunno, I still like my idea of creating prosperity by creating wealth. Seems like the capitalist thing to do.
  
  --
  The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
118. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-18 13:58 · Score: 1
  
  Unfortunately, your definition of "successfully adjusting", is indistinguishable from "starving".
  Complete fscking BULL SHIT!
  If you can't think of an alternative other than "starving" to changing economic conditions, then maybe you *do* deserve to starve.
  
  We artificially manipulate supply and demand all the time. This is why fizzy sugared water - which is NOT particularly rare - sells for dozens of times the cost to make it.
  No. You accede to manipulation; I don't. (Yes, that's an accurate statement, since I just mentally went through every room of our house and there's nothing in any of them that's heavily advertised on TV. Oh, wait; my son has some Axe shampoo.)
  
  The "law"of supply and demand is grade-school economics, sufficient until you realize that demand is usually adjusted without altering quality OR supply. How? Think about it during the next commercial break.
  What the hell does "demand for widgets" have to do with "supply of workers willing to make them"?
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
119. Re:Asia goes up! by FrkyD · 2011-12-18 23:45 · Score: 1
  
  That says absolutely nothing about stagnant income or buying power for the lower and middle class. And statistics, damn statistics or not, the person I was responding to claimed wages have doubled in the last 20 years. But if you want to take statistics out of it, just look at the actualy number of single income households that are still able to maintain a middle class lifestyle, and then take a look at the number of people working more than one job.
  And using health insurance as an argument that total wages have increased is sort of screwed. Insurance might be more expensive now, but those costs have been rising well beyond the rate of inflation, and on an international scale we still spend more dollars for less service than anywhere else. Your article actually reinforces one of the main points of the article I linked to, that the really rich have increased their wealth while the merely rich have actually lost. The article also points out that downward mobility is actually easier and quicker than upward mobility.
  Whatever the case may be, my point was that the claim that wages have doubled is pretty hard to prove. I would even go further and claim tat it was only the access to easy credit that actually maintained the general publics buying power and kept the system afloat as long as it did. Unfortunately, in order to prove that I would need to rely on statistics, something greed apologists would appear to find abhorrent.
120. Re:Asia goes up! by Ol+Olsoc · 2011-12-19 01:14 · Score: 1
  
  so maybe it's time to break down and start from scratch so we can all adjust more efficiently to the new situation.
  So strange how so many people yearn for a return to the dark ages. We don't get to pick the outcome when we break it down.
  
  --
  The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
121. Re:Asia goes up! by Pope · 2011-12-19 02:29 · Score: 1
  
  Apple this, Apple that. It's a goddamn Samsung factory.
  
  --
  It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
122. Re:Asia goes up! by phantomfive · 2011-12-19 05:27 · Score: 1
  
  But if you want to take statistics out of it, just look at the actualy number of single income households that are still able to maintain a middle class lifestyle, and then take a look at the number of people working more than one job.
  How on earth is this taking statistics out of it? Are you so dumb that you cannot see that this is yet another statistic? I don't want you to take statistics out of it, I want you to not be a retard, and stop believing everything that people show to you just because it has numbers.
  
  Furthermore, I want you to read this quote and meditate about it for a while: "He used statistics as a drunk man uses a lightpost, for support not illumination." YOU are the drunk man. Stop it. Be better than that.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
123. Re:Asia goes up! by Kyusaku+Natsume · 2011-12-19 09:03 · Score: 1
  
  He really is new here :)
  
  --
  Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
124. Re:Asia goes up! by Eli+Gottlieb · 2011-12-19 09:35 · Score: 1
  
  Except that not everyone does it. From the number of OWS and pro-Union Ohioan whiners, I'd say that it's a definite minority who successfully adjust.
  Got any evidence that OWS protesters are mostly unemployed, or have mostly failed to qualify themselves for today's good jobs? I seem to remember a news story about a 31-year-old unemployed woman with a biomedical PhD. That ought to qualify her for a job in today's research-driven "knowledge economy", right?
  Except that public spending on research has plummeted for the past couple decades exactly as Wall Street has driven corporations to cut their R&D spending. So now we've got out-of-work PhDs.
125. Re:Asia goes up! by Eli+Gottlieb · 2011-12-19 09:46 · Score: 1
  
  But when they get there, they find themselves forced to room with several people to get by, living in conditions no better than they did at home in order to send a significant chunk of their pay home. It's the tech equivalent of the "Alberta Oilsands Lifestyle" -- long hours, brutal living expenses, and relatively high pay for short periods followed by trips home to survive unemployment while looking for the next contract.
  
  My God, you just described my life in Boston in miniature. Well, I did a little better than that, but my friends who didn't study at hard at school have done exactly like this.
126. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-19 09:59 · Score: 1
  
  I seem to remember a news story about a 31-year-old unemployed woman with a biomedical PhD. That ought to qualify her for a job in today's research-driven "knowledge economy", right?
  Who knows why a specific individual can't get a job?
  Maybe she refuses to relocate to where the jobs are.
  Maybe she's had 3 kids and her skills have gone stale.
  Maybe she's an insufferable self-entitled bitch who never makes it to work on time.
  Maybe she got a shaky PhD from generous Professors and a 3rd rate Uni.
  Or, and naturally most likely, capitalism is evil and the State should run and own everything. Then she'd have a job.
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
127. Re:Asia goes up! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-19 15:37 · Score: 0
  
  And yet CEO salaries keep skyrocketing by outrageous amounts. How do you figure that? Did you know that while the average CEO pay in most western countries is a 20:1 ratio (CEO pay:worker pay) in the US it's 475:1 ? That's plain crazy!
128. Re:Asia goes up! by Eli+Gottlieb · 2011-12-19 19:30 · Score: 1
  
  Cool straw men and rationalization, bro.
  The answer is actually relatively simple (especially when you hear the end of the story): she was offered a job picking biomedical stocks on Wall Street, and took it. So the answer is: money has been reallocated from research to finance, making it more financially feasible for a trained researcher to pick research stocks than to actually do research.
  Capitalism has abstracted its way away from actual productivity and into financial masturbation.
129. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-19 20:09 · Score: 1
  
  Soooo, she's actually *not* unemployed?????
  
  Capitalism has abstracted its way away from actual productivity and into financial masturbation.
  Even Forbes agrees with you.
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
130. Re:Asia goes up! by V!NCENT · 2011-12-19 21:53 · Score: 1
  
  How did you think we came here in the first place? How about having a gear-based Pentium, straight from the Roman Empire? _
  
  --
  Here be signatures
131. Re:Asia goes up! by euroq · 2011-12-19 22:20 · Score: 1
  
  He said wage, not money. The only thing relevant over the last 20 years is purchasing power, or at least dollars accounting for inflation.
  
  --
  Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
132. Re:Asia goes up! by FrkyD · 2011-12-19 23:48 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks for getting insulting there bubba. Now why don't you explain to me just how you would like to support the original posters assertion that wages have more than doubled in the last 20 years?
133. Re:Asia goes up! by phantomfive · 2011-12-20 04:50 · Score: 1
  
  He's beyond retarded. :)
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
134. Re:Asia goes up! by Opportunist · 2011-12-20 05:45 · Score: 1
  
  "I'm a programmer" still means a lot. At least if he can prove he is, and not just yet another codemonkey, able to do some googling and copy/paste "programming".
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
135. Re:Asia goes up! by Eli+Gottlieb · 2011-12-20 05:47 · Score: 1
  
  Was that article ever submitted to Slashdot?
136. Re:Asia goes up! by Opportunist · 2011-12-20 05:47 · Score: 1
  
  Ummm... because the demand for widget depends on people having money to buy them? No workers making them getting no pay, no consumer with money to buy them.
  Oh, wait, they're made somewhere else... well, then no demand for you.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
137. Re:Asia goes up! by Opportunist · 2011-12-20 05:53 · Score: 1
  
  MAYBE she didn't want to work for 3 bucks an hour after spending a fortune big enough to build a house on her education?
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
138. Re:Asia goes up! by Opportunist · 2011-12-20 05:55 · Score: 1
  
  Wall Street can easily recover without economy. What do stocks have to do with economy anymore? It's just a wager, will I find someone dumber than me to buy the toilet paper or will I not?
  Seriously, didn't anyone learn anything from the dot.com bubble? What the hell does Wall Street have to do with real economy?
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
139. Re:Asia goes up! by Opportunist · 2011-12-20 06:02 · Score: 1
  
  Who? The Chinese whose wage is closer to a nickel than a buck? Didn't you notice that the idea was to produce overseas where you can get people to work for nearly no money and then sell the crap over here for a markup of a few thousand percent? Doesn't it make you think that it's cheaper to produce crap in China, put it on a container ship, spend the fuel and pay for the crew to ship it over here, lose about 1 percent of the cargo (that's the normal "whoopsie, waves are big today" overboard loss), that doing all that is CHEAPER than producing it locally? Because, hell, why bother doing it if it wasn't?
  And the people who get paid the pittance that makes it possible that this logistics nightmare is cheaper than domestic production should buy the crap they make? With what money?
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
140. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-20 09:31 · Score: 1
  
  Debt.
  But I do agree that the current system is unsustainable.
  The questions are: what exactly is the "current system", and what to do about it.
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
141. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-20 09:32 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe she shouldn't have racked up so much debt before securing a well-paying job?
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
142. Re:Asia goes up! by J-1000 · 2011-12-20 11:27 · Score: 1
  
  (We're talking tech jobs right?) Wages fall, but so does the cost of the goods being manufactured; and if demand shrinks (for any reason, be that popularity or affordability), prices shrink along with it.
  
  I really don't know what to think beyond that. I don't know enough about economics; I just wanted to point out that falling domestic demand isn't the whole story.
143. Re:Asia goes up! by swalve · 2011-12-21 03:07 · Score: 1
  
  The average person has much less money to buy things
144. Re:Asia goes up! by swalve · 2011-12-21 04:38 · Score: 1
  
  http://www.ssa.gov/oact/COLA/AWI.html#Series
145. Re:Asia goes up! by Opportunist · 2011-12-22 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  Debt only goes so far. Actually, debt and the ability of people to go deeply into it with the policy of "hand 'em money, we'll cover if they can't" the government ran for the longest time kept the system up and running for the time being. But at some point the people could not go into debt anymore. And that moment was hit a few years ago. People could not continue the spending, and the system spiraled into recession.
  How to solve it? Let's see... let's look at the 50s and 60s? I mean, arguably we had a soaring economy then, right? Ok, part of the economy success of the 50s was probably that people were happy the war's over and the foreign aid for Europe, but in the 60s? Think it was only the moon shot race and the money pumped into those Saturn V rockets? Can't really be, I mean, if government pumps money somewhere (aside of government having money in the first place being the capitalist no-no), that money has to come from somewhere first of all. What about the 70s? They were pretty awesome too.
  Personally, I'd say check the tax rates. You might be surprised.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
146. Re:Asia goes up! by Opportunist · 2011-12-22 06:51 · Score: 1
  
  We should be effin' glad she did, else 2008 would have been in 2002. That some dimwits went head over heels into dept allowed our system to outlive its allotted time.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
147. Re:Asia goes up! by Opportunist · 2011-12-22 07:07 · Score: 1
  
  We're talking ALL jobs here. Techs alone, and managers alone, won't keep the economy running. The "trickle-down" myth is exactly that. A myth. How many bricklayers does a rich person need? How much can he eat, drink and spend on leisure? He invariably has money left over. That money now goes into the supply side, of course. Where else? He cannot consume any more, and the only sensible thing is to invest that money. So more has to be produced to justify that investment, and that more has to be sold too.
  You might notice where that system breaks down.
  That system is international, though. Even more drastic in emerging countries like China, with a very slim layer of rich people on par with ours and a mass of penniless slave wage workers who can't buy jack. These people CANNOT compensate for missing domestic consumption. Even if they wanted, they will NEVER have the money to purchase any consumer electronics, no matter how cheap they get. It will make sense if you visualize that the price of any consumer electronics built in China is not only the wage for the worker but also transport across the sea, transport inland, retail cost and profit for every company involved. In short, the wage for the worker is insignificant. He will NEVER make enough money to actually afford what he builds.
  The core of the problem is that we don't produce where we want to sell. Where should the people who are supposed to buy get the money from to buy with?
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
148. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-22 09:11 · Score: 1
  
  People could not continue the spending, and the system spiraled into recession.
  Agree fully.
  
  Ok, part of the economy success of the 50s was probably that people were happy the war's over and the foreign aid for Europe
  Pent-up post-Depression and post-"war deprivation" demand, cashing in *lots* of war bonds, plus growing families and *stuff* (not money) sent to Europe & Asia via various anti-Communist Plans.
  
  but in the 60s
  Residual demand, plus that whole Baby Boom thing. Plus war (and to a smaller degree) space spending.
  
  What about the 70s? They were pretty awesome too.
  See my comments about the 1960s. But things were really falling apart in big cities and there were two oil shocks. It's why the people elected Reagan.
  Remember, if government had been so successful through the 60s & 70s, Reagan's quote, The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' wouldn't have resonated so deeply with so many blue-collar Democrat voters.
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
149. Re:Asia goes up! by Nutria · 2011-12-22 09:30 · Score: 1
  
  If Democrats like Barney Frank (who, being Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, banks were really afraid of and so listened to) hadn't been pushing unsafe lending to marginally acceptable (i.e., working poor) loan candidates since the 1990s, and fiercely resisted FNMA and FHLMC reform in the early 2000s, the 2008 crisis would not have happened.
  We'd just have *different* problems.
  
  --
  "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
150. Re:Asia goes up! by euroq · 2011-12-22 22:01 · Score: 1
  
  I did not reply to whatever comment you are talking about.
  
  Wall Street can't recover unless Main Street is buying their shit. The average wage might be sort of flat over the last 4 years, but it has doubled in the last 20.
  That was the comment I replied to.
  
  --
  Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
Cheap labor by Animats · 2011-12-17 09:36 · Score: 2, Funny

Texas just provides the cheap labor. They don't have the technology.
1. Re:Cheap labor by Svartalf · 2011-12-17 10:04 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Heh... Says you...
  TI
  Freescale
  AMD
  IBM
  Qualcomm
  These and more have more than a piddling engineering presence in Austin.
  
  --
  I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
2. Re:Cheap labor by Pharmboy · 2011-12-17 10:10 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Dell and HP are also Texas corporations, which are two giants in producing end products for the entire globe. Of course, Dell finishes their stuff in Mexico (which is still better than China).
  
  --
  Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
3. Re:Cheap labor by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 10:50 · Score: 1
  
  Texas just provides the cheap labor. They don't have the technology.
  Get real! We're talking about Austin here.
  It's like saying that Portland is a part of Oregon.
4. Re:Cheap labor by martin-boundary · 2011-12-17 11:32 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  That's not so bad. I think the biggest problem will be the language barrier. Texans have a peculiar version of English that could potentially lead to millions of dollars wasted when the managers in Cupertino try to communicate exactly what they want over the phone...
5. Re:Cheap labor by JonWan · 2011-12-17 13:00 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Austin is part of Texas. It's where we keep all of the Democrats.
6. Re:Cheap labor by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 13:37 · Score: 0
  
  Compaq was a Texas corporation, HP is a California corporation. Sorry...
7. Re:Cheap labor by CodeReign · 2011-12-17 15:31 · Score: 1
  
  Bioware (although I mean Edmonton is really where they're at)
8. Re:Cheap labor by fermion · 2011-12-17 18:13 · Score: 1
  
  Texas has been the technology center of the US for quite a long time. In the 80's, when oil prices crashed, Texas was not as devastated as some states have been when central industries went into decline. That is because oil profits, unlike finance, auto, or entertainment profits, are not simply squandered on blow, hookers, and houses. No, oil money has been invested in producing technology, art, and education that helps diversify the economy.
  For instance Compaq, located outside of Houston, jump started the PC revolution by removing IBM from the equation. TI, located in Sherman between the Dallas the Oklahoma border, started off as a geophysical service on the way created the first commercial silicon transistor. Because there was no market for such a device, they also developed the first electronic calculator to show how the device could be used. Not bad for a bunch of backwards hicks.
  What is interesting is that during the oil bust of the mid 80's, the cultural offering of many places in Texas remained relatively cheap. True, during the oil boom of the 70's many museums, zoos, opera, ballets, symphonies were either extremely cheap of free. Though many of the prices increased after the oil bust of the mid 80's, they still remained cheap compared to other parts of the nation thanks to the forward thinking of the endowment managers. I like to think that the Financial people in Texas are much less likely to become fooled by wall street due to the distance from the group think. Just look at easy it was for Enron to fool the people in CA into thinking that rolling blackouts were a necessity of the market. OTOH, when I was going to apply for a jpb at Enron, everyone I knew told me they were crooks and I did not want to be associated with them.
  In any case, i think the Texas attitude has best been summarized in the republican debates. We don't care where you come from, or who your parents are. If you are smart, and can add to the productivity and profits in Texas, welcome, If all you want it is a free check and free care, go away. It is a brutal philosophy, but one that prevents the waste of the normal assumption of aristocratic ascension. Many conservatives think that Rick Perry's assertion that everyone in texas who can get into a university and lives and pay taxes in texas gets in state tuition is stupid, but it is not. There are many people who come to texas from all over the world and all over the nation who stay in texas and add to our profits. In state tuition is a small price to pay for those long terms benefits. Do some of use get angry that our parents have been paying taxes for all our lives to fund texas colleges, and then this immigrant from Iowa gets in state tuition after only a couple years. Does it gall an immigrant from central america that her parents have been paying sales taxes for 10 years and the nation thinks that texas should not give in state tuition? Sure, stupid places like Alabama who cares more about arbitrary beliefs than creating enough profits to feed everyone in the state do. But Texas as a whole does not. Given that there are few states in the US that values education and long term fiscal security more than arbitrary religious beliefs, it is no surprise that Texas ends up better off than most other states. Just look at how much money other states are wasting on enforcing racial segregation instead of finding the smartest people of any race to help make the state better.
  
  --
  "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
9. Re:Cheap labor by QuantumRiff · 2011-12-17 18:33 · Score: 1
  
  Dell is not a Texas Corporation..
  Dell is a Delaware Corporation, like about 85% of all corporations..
  They have their headquarters in Texas.
  http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/corporate/sec/Q410KFY08pdf.pdf
  
  --
  
  What are we going to do tonight Brain?
10. Re:Cheap labor by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 03:28 · Score: 0
  
  Fortunately, Austin is not actually part of Texas--it's merely surrounded by it.
I live in Texas by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 09:37 · Score: 1, Informative

yay, jerbs?
1. Re:I live in Texas by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 10:32 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Meanwhile some where in China "They took our jerbssssss"
Samsung... by Joce640k · 2011-12-17 09:39 · Score: 4, Interesting

The same company they're suing for imitating (int their eyes) the same product they're going to make in the new factory? Strange bedfellows indeed.

--
No sig today...
1. Re:Samsung... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 09:52 · Score: 0
  
  Unlike say... Apple... who made an mp3 player and a phone and a tablet... and then act as if they invented them.
2. Re:Samsung... by Joce640k · 2011-12-17 09:55 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Nope. Samsung used somebody's else's operating system (Android) and put it in a form factor which:
  a) Had been done before Apple did it
  b) Is pretty obvious - the only real variation possible is the roundness of the corners, everything else follows function (it's a screen!)
  
  --
  No sig today...
3. Re:Samsung... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 09:56 · Score: 0
  
  Samsung did the only part that deserves any respect.
4. Re:Samsung... by Cardcaptor_RLH85 · 2011-12-17 10:05 · Score: 2
  
  The only part that Apple is sourcing from this Samsung plant is the A5 processor. I don't think that any Android phone or tablet uses this chip so that's not the issue at all.
5. Re:Samsung... by bjwest · 2011-12-17 10:06 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  It doesn't matter how the damn thing looks. Every friggin LCD TV manufactured since the dawn of LCD TVs look and feel the same. If it weren't for the glowing 'Sony' emblem on mine, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and a Vizo, Samsung, or any other brand sitting on the shelf next to each other. Ditto for pretty much every LCD monitor, as well. If you're stupid enough to buy a Samsung tablet, thinking you're getting an iPad, then you deserve neither. Caveat emptor, you stupid "consumer". I'm a customer, and I look at what I'm purchasing to make sure it's what I want.
  Just because something is black with rounded corners, doesn't mean it's patentable. I hope Apple gets their asses handed to them soon over their bull shit patents.
  
  --
  
  --- Keep the choice with the user..
6. Re:Samsung... by Pi1grim · 2011-12-17 10:08 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Ah, come on already. Enough with the "all the phones have similar design" argument. Put side by side iPhone 3G(S), iPhone 4, any HTC smartphone, any Sony-Ericsson smartphone, Nokia smartphone and Samsung Galaxy (I and 2) then see try to match similar looking phones. Somehow only Samsung managed to make their phone look painfully like the iPhone.
7. Re:Samsung... by TooMuchToDo · 2011-12-17 10:13 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  When you can site 2001: A Space Oddessy as prior art, that gives Samsung license to tell Apple to go eat a bowl of dicks. Apple? innovators? My ass. They sell marked-up shiny.
  http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-08/24/samsung-2001-prior-art
  
  According to Samsung, director Stanley Kubrick had the idea for tablet computers about four decades ago, in the 1968 sci-fi epic, 2001: A Space Odyssey. A clip from the film (available on YouTube, Samsung hastens to add), shows astronauts eating while watching a TV show on flat, personal computers.
  The Galaxy Tab maker argues that Kubrick's forward-thinking tablet has, "an overall rectangular shape with a dominant display screen, narrow borders, a predominately flat front surface, a flat back surface (which is evident because the tablets are lying flat on the table's surface), and a thin form factor."
8. Re:Samsung... by AmiMoJo · 2011-12-17 10:22 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe it's a cunning trap!
  More seriously it is probably a case of having the contracts signed long ago, and it is only for the fabrication (not design). Still seems somewhat risky.
  Then again Samsung always make sure their flagship products have a better CPU than Apple's, and the A5 is looking a pretty ordinary these days. In short they can already easily compete on specs, it is just the legal wrangling and Apple's massive lifestyle marketing techniques that are a challenge.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
9. Re:Samsung... by ShakaUVM · 2011-12-17 10:36 · Score: 0
  
  >>only Samsung managed to make their phone look painfully like the iPhone.
  Apple doctored the comparison photographs to make the Galaxy look more like their products than it actually was. Google it.
10. Re:Samsung... by NatasRevol · 2011-12-17 10:53 · Score: 1
  
  Yet Samsung's own lawyers couldn't tell them apart. In real life.
  
  --
  There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
11. Re:Samsung... by antifoidulus · 2011-12-17 11:00 · Score: 2
  
  That seems to happen a lot with these big east Asian electronics firms, they get so big they end up competing with themselves. Look at Sony, they used to(and maybe still do?) manufacture a lot of the parts that went into Apple computers such as the battery, while at the same time competing with Apple in both the laptop and the personal media player fields...... Though Samsung would be wise to make sure they don't end up going down the same path that Sony did, i.e. get so big and have so many conflicting goals that they end up losing a lot of their core business to smaller and more nimble competitors.
  
  --
  Monstar L
12. Re:Samsung... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 11:04 · Score: 0
  
  yeah yeah yeah sure, you're right but so motherfucking what? it's still just some motherfucking curvature on some motherfucking plastic rectangle. as long as they dont claim the samsung to be an apple the heavily inspired looks should not be criminal.
13. Re:Samsung... by nightfell · 2011-12-17 11:13 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Nope. Samsung used somebody's else's operating system (Android) and put it in a form factor which:
  a) Had been done before Apple did it
  b) Is pretty obvious - the only real variation possible is the roundness of the corners, everything else follows function (it's a screen!)
  It's not the form factor that Apple is suing over, it's the industrial design of a specific implementation of that form factor. Apple has not sued, threatened to sue, or otherwise made any sort of huff about the dozens of other tablets that have been around both before and after the iPad, just those that bear a striking resemblance to the iPad.
  The Galaxy Tab is a near clone. Apple is right to sue over it if they hold their own design to be distinctive (which it is). This isn't about a rectangle, rounded corners, or black borders, it's about a unique collection of attributes that is immediately recognizable as an iPad.
14. Re:Samsung... by nightfell · 2011-12-17 11:15 · Score: 2
  
  And that display from 2001 would not infringe on the iPad.
  Or put differently, even Samsung's lawyers wouldn't have had any trouble pointing out the 2001 device from an iPad or a Galaxy Tab.
15. Re:Samsung... by sqlrob · 2011-12-17 11:48 · Score: 1
  
  From 10 feet
16. Re:Samsung... by luis_a_espinal · 2011-12-17 11:51 · Score: 2
  
  Yet Samsung's own lawyers couldn't tell them apart. In real life.
  And that's because the lawyers were incompetent, not because the products were reasonably indistinguishable from one another.
17. Re:Samsung... by Smurf · 2011-12-17 11:58 · Score: 1
  
  The same company they're suing for imitating (in their eyes) the same product they're going to make in the new factory? Strange bedfellows indeed.
  True but it's a mistake that's not so hard to make.
18. Re:Samsung... by Solandri · 2011-12-17 12:11 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  In the U.S., design patents can only be granted for "ornamental" features. i.e. features which serve no functional purpose. The Coca-Cola bottle is the archetypical example. Making that bottle that shape serves no function, it's completely ornamental.
  
  In that regard, flat, rectangular, and rounded corners are all functional, which is why Apple was denied the injunction they sought against Samsung in the U.S. The color of the bezel could be regarded as ornamental, but with black, white, and silver being the most common choices, I seriously doubt any design patent based on a black bezel would stand. If Apple striped it a certain way, that might qualify. The only other design patent-worthy aspect of the Apple's complaint I can think of is the radius of the rounded corners. But that can easily be circumvented by using rounded corners with a slightly different radius.
  
  And by the way, the appearance of the iPad from the front is a near-clone of a Samsung digital picture frame released in 2006. Be careful who you accuse of copying whom.
19. Re:Samsung... by BasilBrush · 2011-12-17 12:44 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  So how come the Samsung looks more like an iPad than it looks like the 2001:A Space Oddessy tablet?
  What bullshit.
20. Re:Samsung... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 13:09 · Score: 0
  
  Maybe it's a cunning trap!
  More seriously it is probably a case of having the contracts signed long ago, and it is only for the fabrication (not design). Still seems somewhat risky.
  Samsung is happy to provide the volume, but yes, Apple is a very fickle customer. They will drop you in an instant and talk shit about you on the way out, and the Apple fans and press will be happy to believe that whatever Apple blames on the supplier is entirely the supplier's fault, because Apple can do no wrong.
21. Re:Samsung... by the+eric+conspiracy · 2011-12-17 13:28 · Score: 1
  
  > They sell marked-up shiny.
  The innovative part is doing that so well that they are the #1 company in the world by stock market valuation.
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44090899/ns/business-us_business/t/why-apple-now-no-company-world/#.Tu1BgPJbftw
22. Re:Samsung... by CheerfulMacFanboy · 2011-12-17 13:31 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  When you can site 2001: A Space Oddessy as prior art, that gives Samsung license to tell Apple to go eat a bowl of dicks.
  Errm, you can "site" something as long as you want, if it doesn't actually fit, you are blowing smoke. And since the device in 2001 doesn't actually look like an iPad (or any other device sold today), that's what you just did. Nice Debunkification here.
  
  --
  Fandroids hate facts.
23. Re:Samsung... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 13:43 · Score: 0
  
  My Samsung Monitor (on my PC) and My Benq Monitor that I use as a tuner-less TV (it's plugged straight into the tv box):
  - The Samsung has a 3/4" bezel, buttons on the bottom bezel, and has a blue LED under the power button.
  - The Benq has a slightly larger bezel, moved the buttons to the right physical side of the monitor (so you can't see it from the front) and has the buttons vertically oriented, and the bottom part of the bezel has a needless "grey bump"
  At 10ft away with my glasses off I would only identify the power button as to which monitor is which. With my glasses on I can clearly see the Benq and Samgsung on the center of the bottom part of the Bezel.
  Note how many times I said bezel and buttons. I said nothing about the screen itself.
  When you sell a product based on looks, you don't want your product looking like someone elses product.
  That said, the buttons on the side make no bloody sense on the Benq. I have to "feel around" for them and hit the wrong one a few times to change the input.
24. Re:Samsung... by jamesh · 2011-12-17 13:45 · Score: 2
  
  If it weren't for the glowing 'Sorny' emblem on mine, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and a Vizo, Samsung, or any other brand sitting on the shelf next to each other.
  Nonsense. I know a genuine Panaphonics when I see one.
25. Re:Samsung... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 13:48 · Score: 0
  
  OMG HTC is also infringing on Apple IP, it was shipping a Desire Z in the same box design:
  http://htcpedia.com/news/htc-desire-z-photo-unboxing.html
26. Re:Samsung... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 14:05 · Score: 0
  
  Apple is suing in order to stifle competition. Sure Samsung's design may be similar (It's actually slightly bigger and lighter than the ipad), but that is just the excuse Apple needed in order to try and get those injunctions. And we all know now they are being over turned.
  Now that Jobs is no longer around, I have a felling we will see less and less of these frivolous infringement cases.
27. Re:Samsung... by Osgeld · 2011-12-17 14:37 · Score: 1
  
  yes because it takes a fucking genius to put a lcd in a rectangular frame
28. Re:Samsung... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 14:39 · Score: 0
  
  I thought Christians were supposed to be above such pettiness as fanboyism?
29. Re:Samsung... by rahvin112 · 2011-12-17 14:47 · Score: 1
  
  Clone? The aspect ratio is completely different! Ipad is 4:3, Galaxy Tab is 16:9. That's old TV versus HDTV. Clone my ass. Besides, as has already been pointed out the Ipad look was used by Samsung in 2006 on a picture frame. So if anyone copied anyone it's Apple copied Samsung.
30. Re:Samsung... by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-12-17 15:51 · Score: 1
  
  I owned both iPhone 4 and Samsung Galaxy S2. They don't really look like each other, any more so than, say, Nexus One looks like iPhone 3GS. About the only thing you can say they have in common is that both are rectangular, black, and have the front fully covered with a glass panel.
31. Re:Samsung... by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-12-17 15:53 · Score: 1
  
  it's about a unique collection of attributes that is immediately recognizable as an iPad.
  Which is to say, a combination of a black rectangle with round corners?
32. Re:Samsung... by smi.james.th · 2011-12-17 17:07 · Score: 1
  
  AFAIK, Samsung have been making the low-level electronics for Apple's products for quite some time now.
  
  --
  One thing I know, and that is that I am ignorant...
33. Re:Samsung... by swalve · 2011-12-17 18:45 · Score: 1
  
  Which means what?
34. Re:Samsung... by oxdas · 2011-12-17 18:59 · Score: 1
  
  Samsung was just as likely competing with LG, also a Korean company. The LG prada came out before the Iphone and looks similar to both of them. Samsung has been making phones for decades, so it's not exactly a new business for them and Apple knew this when they went to them for their processors, memory, and LCD's. Apple is also suing HTC and Motorola, so apparently they feel more then just Samsung phones are violating their IP.
35. Re:Samsung... by Mister+Pedant · 2011-12-17 21:15 · Score: 0
  
  WTF, you can't even spell 'than'. It's not like it's rocket-fucking-science.
  Let me help...
  Than:
  I'm better than you.
  Then: ...then fucking learn to use the correct word next time.
36. Re:Samsung... by nightfell · 2011-12-17 21:29 · Score: 1
  
  In that regard, flat, rectangular, and rounded corners are all functional, which is why Apple was denied the injunction they sought against Samsung in the U.S.
  And "flat, rectangular, and rounded corners" is not the scope of the Apple patent. There are literally dozens of "flat, rectangular, and rounded cornered" tablets on the market. The Galaxy Tab looks pretty much exactly like an iPad. Even Samsung's lawyers couldn't tell them apart at a reasonable distance.
  
  And by the way, the appearance of the iPad from the front is a near-clone of a Samsung digital picture frame released in 2006. Be careful who you accuse of copying whom.
  It's pretty absurd to claim Apple was copying Samsung.
  It's interesting, to be sure, but it's not a tablet, wasn't covered by patents, and quite notably, it's extremely clear that Apple was not trying to get people to think they were buying a Samsung picture frame, the same cannot be said about the Tab compared with the iPad.
  Also of significant note, that picture frame lacks some key aspects of Apple's patent, including having a large "SAMSUNG" on the bezel.
37. Re:Samsung... by nightfell · 2011-12-17 21:32 · Score: 1
  
  It's absurd to claim Apple copied Samsung. Do you think, when they were working on the iPhone, they saw that picture frame and thought, "we need to make our phone look like that, it's so popular, it will spill over and people will buy our phones!"?
  As for aspect ratio, that's not all that important, it's just tweaking dimensions a bit. Did you know the iPad and iPad 2 have different aspect ratios? The thing is that the Galaxy Tab looks almost exactly like an iPad. Look at the picture from Samsung's ad in Australia. It looks exactly like an iPad. The only noticeable difference is the contents of the screen, not the decoration around it.
38. Re:Samsung... by nightfell · 2011-12-17 21:34 · Score: 1
  
  it's about a unique collection of attributes that is immediately recognizable as an iPad.
  Which is to say, a combination of a black rectangle with round corners?
  Nope, it's not to say that at all. There are dozens of tablets that have those combinations, and they are all clearly distinguishable from an iPad and a Galaxy Tab without having to take a second look.
39. Re:Samsung... by nightfell · 2011-12-17 21:45 · Score: 1
  
  Apple is suing in order to stifle competition.
  Then where are all the other lawsuits? Why are they only saying the Tab is a copy, and not any of the other tablets, all of which have their own styles, and therefore aren't copies?
  
  Sure Samsung's design may be similar (It's actually slightly bigger and lighter than the ipad), but that is just the excuse Apple needed in order to try and get those injunctions.
  "slightly bigger and lighter", yeah, that's *soooo* different! They aren't saying they copied the dimensions or the weight down to the minutiae, but the distinctive look they have for the iPad (and iPhone).
  This isn't an "excuse" to sue. They have been very up front and open about their intentions. They aren't trying to stop anyone from making tablets, just from making tablets that are too similar to the ones Apple makes.
  
  And we all know now they are being over turned.
  What has been overturned? I think one ruling in eastern europe has. Australia's injunction has expired, and in the US, the court decided that the Galaxy Tab would not impact Apple's sales. Those examples really don't support your assertions.
40. Re:Samsung... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 00:21 · Score: 0
  
  No, because Samsung is an equal opportunity employer and employs legally blind lawyers.
41. Re:Samsung... by unixisc · 2011-12-18 00:26 · Score: 1
  
  No, Samsung the fab is a different company from Samsung the Galaxy phone maker. Yeah, they may ultimately be under the same chaebol, but the fab's interests are keeping its customers happy, including, if not especially, customers whose competitors may include other Samsung divisions. I remember, when I worked for a memory company, Samsung's cellphone division would buy flash/RAM MCPs from us, and they were pretty agnostic as to whose RAM we used - they just wanted the RAM who had the best price and reliability. There was no NIH spirit there, and in fact, we were told that they were not on good terms w/ Samsung the memory maker, since they were not getting good pricing from them, contrary to what one might have expected.
  
  Having said that, another customer of ours specifically told us not to use Samsung's RAM, since they were competing w/ Samsung and did not want Samsung to know about their planned volumes or any other such details.
  
  Similarly, Samsung the fab will want to keep Apple happy, even though Samsung the phone maker may be their legal enemy. B'cos @ the end of the day, the bottom line will count, and Samsung Semiconductors won't want to lose a customer to someone else like TSMC, or UMC, or anybody else especially for this reason.
42. Re:Samsung... by phantomfive · 2011-12-18 09:59 · Score: 1
  
  I usually have half a dozen different phones from different manufacturers sitting on my desk at work. Twice now I've picked up a Samsung device thinking it was an iPhone. I haven't done that with any other device. They do look more similar than other phones.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
43. Re:Samsung... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 10:20 · Score: 0
  
  And that display from 2001 would not infringe on the iPad
  Ok. What about the joo joo. I remember when they were trying to release that thing...I thought it was a stupid format then, I laughed my ass off when the Apple released the iPad copying that stupid format, and now everyone is doing it.
  I guess that's why I can't get rich. I need to learn that people are stupid and they think bad designs are good designs. Come up with stupid ideas and sell them to the stupid masses, stop overestimating their abilities!
Damned both ways? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 09:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

Dear America, do you want to work or not?
1. Re:Damned both ways? by Ethanol-fueled · 2011-12-17 10:08 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  1. Destroy economy so wages are depressed
  2. U.S. now source of cheap labor
  3. Best of both worlds - outsourced wages with domestic location
  4. Profit!
  5. Rich get richer, poor get poorer
  6. Repeat as desired
2. Re:Damned both ways? by Opportunist · 2011-12-17 12:49 · Score: 1
  
  Well, there is a hard limit, ya know? It's rather hard to find people willing to pay to work. Aside of that, I bet by now they're quite happy the slaves were "freed". Slaves have to be fed and sheltered, I guess soon they'd be more expensive.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
3. Re:Damned both ways? by RightSaidFred99 · 2011-12-17 13:12 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, that unavoidable reality, you know? It sure isn't very progressive!
  When our (the US's) standard of living is so high above the rest of the worlds, I wonder what would happen? Oh, yeah - outsourcing for labor. Yep, that happened.
  Then when the pendulum swings a little bit back we will start to get more local work. It's econ 101.
4. Re:Damned both ways? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 14:28 · Score: 1
  
  We already have people paying to work now, basically, with mandatory internship as part of academic curricula. You pay tuition for the privilege of the experience you get in the internship the university has arranged for you.
5. Re:Damned both ways? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 15:11 · Score: 0
  
  I'm sure Samsung had that whole scenario in mind when it built the Texas facility.
  Obviously then, you don't want to work.
6. Re:Damned both ways? by Kohath · 2011-12-17 20:36 · Score: 1
  
  Some of us do. Others think they're entitled to some kind of utopian existence of leisure and self indulgence at our expense.
Headline allusion error by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 09:40 · Score: 5, Informative

It's not Apple that made the $9b investment - Samsung did. The headline to the news entry suggests that it was otherwise. Grammer is so hard i kno lol!
1. Re:Headline allusion error by AmberBlackCat · 2011-12-17 11:35 · Score: 1
  
  I'd like to hear them explain how, for chips meant to be used in the USA, Samsung decided it would be more practical to build a factory here. But every American company decided it would be cheaper to use factories elsewhere and have them shipped here. It kind of seems like there's nothing impractical about having a factory here. They just want to make sure no American company builds anything.
2. Re:Headline allusion error by luis_a_espinal · 2011-12-17 11:58 · Score: 1
  
  I'd like to hear them explain how, for chips meant to be used in the USA, Samsung decided it would be more practical to build a factory here. But every American company decided it would be cheaper to use factories elsewhere and have them shipped here. It kind of seems like there's nothing impractical about having a factory here. They just want to make sure no American company builds anything.
  Offshoring/outsourcing overseas has always been about shifting costs overseas in the name of efficiency, quality or even profit. It has always been about reducing costs to increase the pockets of those who sell the idea of outsourcing, everything else be damned. I know it sounds like a slogan, but that's what makes it terrifying because it is true. That's the type of mercenary mentality that has been cultivated in our business ruling classes for the last 2 decades.
  You will not see that in the Toyotas, Mercedes-Benz and Samsungs of the world where the choice to build a factory here or there are actually strategical and tactical, with actual business considerations( quality, cost, ship-to-market, etc) driving these decisions.
3. Re:Headline allusion error by stephanruby · 2011-12-17 13:53 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, but how much did Apple prepay Samsung? 10 billion dollars? Apple prepays for everything these days. It's a bargaining chip they can use, plus it will probably be safer invested in their own inventory than in the stock market somewhere.
4. Re:Headline allusion error by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 21:00 · Score: 0
  
  It's not Apple that made the $9b investment - Samsung did. The headline to the news entry suggests that it was otherwise. Grammer is so hard i kno lol!
  Say! That's right! Apple had nothing to do with it. Samsung would have built the plant even if Apple had died in the 90's. Lots of foreign tech are building domestic fabs for A5's now. Move along, nothing to see here.
5. Re:Headline allusion error by gtall · 2011-12-18 01:25 · Score: 1
  
  It is important to have a sense of time, it has the tendency to change conditions in a way that you, especially you, wouldn't expect.
6. Re:Headline allusion error by UBfusion · 2011-12-18 01:25 · Score: 1
  
  We will probably never learn where that $9b was sourced from - Apple has a long history of funding plants in exchange for exclusive rights to products and/or major pricing cuts.
7. Re:Headline allusion error by Archibald+Buttle · 2011-12-18 03:26 · Score: 1
  
  Thing is though, these chips aren't "meant to be used in the USA" at all, but rather in China, and South Korea is much closer to China than the USA is.
  China is where A5 chips get put into iPads and iPhones, not the USA. So chips get manufactured in the USA and then shipped to China, and from there get shipped to consumers the world over, not just the USA.
I for one welcome... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 09:43 · Score: 4, Funny

I for one welcome our new Korean overlords.
1. Re:I for one welcome... by rohan972 · 2011-12-17 14:44 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  In Korea, only old people are overlords.
  
  --
  http://marriedmansexlife.com/
2. Re:I for one welcome... by swalve · 2011-12-17 18:51 · Score: 2
  
  They've been our overlords for a while now. A LOT of our stuff has Korean innards. LG and Samsung are huge OEM producers.
3. Re:I for one welcome... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 21:05 · Score: 0
  
  That move actually makes them more american than apple =)
4. Re:I for one welcome... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 22:37 · Score: 0
  
  Fun fact:
  A lot of LG's and Samsung's products are actually built and assembled in China!
5. Re:I for one welcome... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 06:42 · Score: 0
  
  In Korea, overlords are only used for hydra drops.
Irony by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 09:45 · Score: 0

Weren't they just SUING them? Now they want a Samsung factory making chips for them?
So, if Samsung wasn't anywhere near your products and was supposedly copying your designs, what will happen now that you're getting them to make chips for you?
Or perhaps now that Apple's chips will be produced by a Samsung factory, the next time they want to sue Samsung, they can just say..."well, our chips were right there in front of their noses...so easy to copy!"
The bottom line: I can't imagine there isn't some ulterior motive behind this otherwise counterintuitive move...
1. Re:Irony by Ixokai · 2011-12-17 10:06 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I don't know why I'm replying to an AC, but--
  Err, Samsung has been one of Apple's major suppliers for a long time now, in the billions of dollars range. They've been making a huge chunk of the chips that go into everything for years and years-- long before any of these lawsuits started.
  There's nothing counter-intuitive about it. Apple is one of Samsung's largest customers and has been for ages.
  The lawsuit from Apple's side is a design issue, not functional: nearness to the product is irrelevant. They aren't suing about how chips work or are made: its design from an artistic/aesthetic POV, not design from an architectural or engineering POV, that they're suing over. (I'm not defending the lawsuits or the existence of design patents, just noting the difference)
2. Re:Irony by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 10:33 · Score: 0
  
  Whether it's physical design or structural design is irrelevant, Apple still has the predisposition to sue and does this regularly, making it inherently risky to deal with them on such a close level. Why? Well, how far was Samsung from Apple when Apple had accused them of stealing the artistic ideas for their product? Now, Samsung's entering a deal with them to create chips for them, right? They're no going to be in each other's back yards. So if Samsung were to produce something even *remotely* similar to the chips they're being contracted to make, they're done for in court. They can't argue it's just coincidence, that somehow they came up with similar ideas but that the idea wasn't stolen because they'll be manufacturing the chips. Meanwhile, those types of coincidences are actually possible and different companies can honestly end up reaching similar conclusions even if they're halfway across the world from each other and never share ideas (this phenomenon has been shown in regards to other technologies). That's why this is counterintuitive. They're entering into an agreement where they now need to be extra, extra careful in all the designs they produce since they can't merrily argue coincidence anymore -- even if it was coincidence -- because who would believe them?
3. Re:Irony by istartedi · 2011-12-17 11:11 · Score: 1
  
  Lawsuits are just a way for lawyers to collect taxes without using the government as a middleman.
  
  --
  For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
4. Re:Irony by JimCanuck · 2011-12-17 15:36 · Score: 2
  
  They cannot sue about the chips production or their design, as they are off the shelf Samsung products re-badged for Apple. Samsung owns the IP associated with the silicon not Apple.
  Apple has nothing but a few design patents which are a lousy means to stop others products at best, at worst it shows that the Patent system is completely broken when its supposed to allow for technological innovation and yet a company that has none manages to use the system to shut people who actually do innovate out of the market.
5. Re:Irony by Ixokai · 2011-12-17 18:34 · Score: 1
  
  First, to repeat: This is not a new relationship; they are not entering a new deal. Apple is one of the largest single customers of Samsungs. Apple is, and has been, buying billions of dollars of chips from Samsung for a decade.
  Apple is Samsung's second largest customer. Apple pays them to make their processors, their memory-- both DRAM and NAND-- and maybe various other components. Apple gives them billions every year: Apple, a _single_customer_ does. (Sony, fwiw, is Samsung's largest customer -- and by a pretty big margin to be fair).
  There is nothing new here at all in the relationship. What's new is that Samsung made a new plant-- in the US of all places-- but they have more then one plant and can build them whereever. This is not an Apple-Samsung joint partnership. Samsung is the supplier. Apple is the customer.
  This is nothing new.
  Now, there is some speculation that the lawsuits may cause Apple to seek another supplier-- IS there one with enough capacity? I don't know-- but that would not at ALL be what Samsung would want. That's *billions* of sales a year lost. Their consumer electronics division may wish that Apple went poof, but their semiconductor division would be hit really, really hard by it. (Heck, I'm not exactly sure what Samsung would want out of their side of the lawsuits-- the only acceptable solution it seems to me for them would be for everyone to walk away back behind the lines and pretend none of it happened again. Any kind of injunction against Apple hurts Samsung, too. Not as bad, certainly. But still).
  On to the rest of your argument-- first, the vast majority of what Samsung makes for Apple is in no way even distinct. Its stock stuff they make themselves and sell to all kinds of people, that Samsung itself owns all the rights to (or maybe licenses). This article about the A5 is distinct, sure: but only kind of. The A5 is "just" a customized Cortex A9 with a PowerVR GPU and a couple other things stuck together into a system-on-a-chip platform. Those are all licensed technology that Apple doesn't even own: though surely the combination and distinct customization's they made will be a certain amount of in-house IP that Apple will want to protect.
  Except all kinds of other people are making things similar already. Including Samsung, and they've been doing it themselves longer.
  Its not counter-intuitive to let someone pay me billions a year to make the things you're already making. Its not counter-intuitive to see that someone is increasing demand and wants to pay me even more billions, but my capacity is short-- so I build a new factory.
  It IS a bit schizo that to one division in the company, Apple is the customer and one of the best ones at that. And yet, to another division of the company, Apple is the enemy. Its a complicated relationship, for sure. What it is not is a NEW relationship. There's way too much money on the line for them to decide 'oh no! Apple likes to sue people so we won't sell them our stuff!'
6. Re:Irony by oxdas · 2011-12-17 19:06 · Score: 1
  
  Apple's lawsuits in the Netherlands and, I believe, in Australia as well, were for both design issues and software patents. In fact, the court in the Netherlands threw out all of Apple's design claims, but upheld one of their "patents". In this case, for the bounce effect when scrolling a picture.
7. Re:Irony by Archibald+Buttle · 2011-12-18 03:32 · Score: 1
  
  Apple's A5 (and previous A4) CPUs weren't off-the-shelf Samsung products. They were Apple-originated designs. (Well, using cores from ARM and Imagination Technologies, integrated by Apple, possibly with some help from other outside companies some of which are now owned by Apple.)
  The CPUs that Apple used for earlier iPhones on the other hand were Samsung products.
Will make no difference by Meshach · 2011-12-17 09:46 · Score: 1

Judging from the popularity of Apple / Samsung products that are made in Asia I do not see the move to America making a difference.

--
"Maybe this world is another planet's hell"
Aldous Huxley
At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by PolygamousRanchKid+ · 2011-12-17 09:53 · Score: 2

. . . so they won't have to worry about Thailand-like floods stopping the production. At least if they stay away from the lakes and rivers . . . or what is left of the lakes and rivers.
Austin also has plenty of other high-tech companies around. But that air conditioning bill will be mighty high . . .
Although I seem to remember that Intel started building something there, but stopped went the Internet bubble busted. The local folks called empty frame. "Intel NOT inside . . . "
But if this here factory is already bakin' chips . . . that's sumtin' different.

--
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
1. Re:At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by Elbart · 2011-12-17 10:00 · Score: 1
  
  Isn't Texas one of the high-risk-targets of hurricanes?
2. Re:At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 10:03 · Score: 0
  
  Austin is far enough in not to be severely impacted by hurricanes. Would actually welcome it since we need rain due to severe drought.
3. Re:At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by mattgoldey · 2011-12-17 10:03 · Score: 1
  
  The Gulf coast maybe, but not Austin.
4. Re:At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by eudas · 2011-12-17 10:05 · Score: 1
  
  Not in Austin. That's more down on the coastline, 3.5-4 hr away.
  
  --
  Blessed is he who expects the worst, for he shall not be disappointed.
5. Re:At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by Sponge+Bath · 2011-12-17 10:06 · Score: 1
  
  Isn't Texas one of the high-risk-targets of hurricanes?
  Not Austin. We are an evacuation destination for Houston ;-). A few years ago, a hurricane caused enough panic in Austin for people to strip store shelves for supplies, which is completely retarded considering how far inland we are. Wherever you go, there are stupid people.
6. Re:At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by AHuxley · 2011-12-17 11:30 · Score: 1
  
  Just your usual US pay-to-play political donations ect.
  
  --
  Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
7. Re:At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by atamido · 2011-12-17 17:47 · Score: 1
  
  Not Austin. We are an evacuation destination for Houston ;-). A few years ago, a hurricane caused enough panic in Austin for people to strip store shelves for supplies, which is completely retarded considering how far inland we are. Wherever you go, there are stupid people.
  Austin does have its share of infrequent and sudden damaging weather, such as ice storms, hail, heavy rains, and tornadoes. That said, some minor preparation will protect you from all of those, except tornadoes. But tornadoes are so infrequent and have such localized damage that the chances of being damaged by one are small enough to completely ignore.
  Austin does have an inactive fault line running through it, so if it suddenly went active again then most of the city would likely be leveled with a good 6 earthquake.
8. Re:At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by SEE · 2011-12-17 18:33 · Score: 1
  
  Parts of Texas, sure. But Texas is the size of (Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, Maine, South Carolina, West Virginia, Maryland, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware, and Rhode Island) combined, and Austin is pretty well inland.
9. Re:At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by DigiShaman · 2011-12-17 19:52 · Score: 1
  
  Data Foundry located in Austin, TX has a nice natural disaster map located on their website. I used to live there myself. About the only thing to worry about would be tornadoes. But even those are extremely infrequent.
  http://www.datafoundry.com/data-centers/texas1/location/
  
  --
  Life is not for the lazy.
10. Re:At least Austin should be free of floods . . . by unixisc · 2011-12-18 00:47 · Score: 1
  
  Wasn't that Bangkok floods about hard drives? Yeah, I accept that your point is the same. But if that's a problem, they could build fabs in New Mexico (like Intel) or Arizona - those 2 are almost desert. But from what I understand, fabs do need a steady water supply. Maybe Thailand would be a good location for another fab - at some elevation of course, maybe upstream on the Mekong, rather than in Bangkok.
"To be Fair" by SuperKendall · 2011-12-17 10:05 · Score: 5, Insightful

Construction is temporal. We're trying to _reduce_ energy usage, believe it or not.
You might be. Countries or states that would like a growing economy are not among those interesting in giving in to entropy.
To be fair, it looks like this actually created 500-700 jobs.
One would think being "Fair" would be to quote the jobs figure from the original Reuters article - 1100 for just the chips, never mind the flash - instead of a number pulled from thin air but put forth as fact.
You go ask your local chamber of commerce if they care at all about 1100+ technical jobs appearing where they are.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
1. Re:"To be Fair" by msauve · 2011-12-17 10:12 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Regarding the expansion to support Apple chips, "Samsung has been an Austin-area employer since 1996...The company will also hire an additional 500 employees."
  
  --
  "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Not fair to Texas by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 10:05 · Score: 0

I know that Texas probably appears to be a foreign country to people from California, but there's no need to treat the state like third world country.
Real world blows Apple Hater mind - news at 11 by SuperKendall · 2011-12-17 10:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

Weren't they just SUING them? Now they want a Samsung factory making chips for them?
In the Real World, relationships are way more complex than one headline or story the media loves to harp on. Samsung is producing chips now which means Apple was talking to them about that something like two years ago...
Businesses are composed of many different units and the guys who make the chips are about as far removed from the Galaxy Tab as a whale is from an owl.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
1. Re:Real world blows Apple Hater mind - news at 11 by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 10:35 · Score: 0
  
  "First you wanna kill me, now you wanna kiss me. Blow. "
  - Army of Darkness
the funniest thing about your post by decora · 2011-12-17 10:14 · Score: 1

you were trying to prove that Texas is a technology hub, by rattling off various tech companies in Austin.
you didn't mention Dell.
that makes me laugh all kinds of horrible laughs that i am kind of embarassed to be laughing.
1. Re:the funniest thing about your post by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2011-12-17 11:28 · Score: 2
  
  Dell is, arguably, more of a logistics and integration company than a tech company(which isn't necessarily a bad thing, they are pretty decent at it, and somebody has to do it)...
  
  They are pretty good at providing a one-stop-shop for a variety of Intel and AMD silicon, with supporting chips from a number of other vendors, mounted on a standardized set of boards from a few pacific rim OEM shops, and stuffed into plastic boxes in Mexico according to your order. Juggling that worldwide logistics effort is no mean feat; but they don't mix much in the way of dell technology into the sauce. It's like fedex with driver updates...
I was suprised by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 10:20 · Score: 1

a few weeks ago when I ordered some ram from newegg, it's said made in USA when I got it. And yes, works great.
Texas is still a..... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 10:28 · Score: 0

third world country.... They still execute the mentally ill there, and have you seen the nutjobs that come from there? Just look at GW Bush and Rick Perry...
1. Re:Texas is still a..... by ColdWetDog · 2011-12-17 11:21 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  third world country.... They still execute the mentally ill there, and have you seen the nutjobs that come from there? Just look at GW Bush and Rick Perry...
  I thought you said they executed the mentally ill.
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
2. Re:Texas is still a..... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 12:41 · Score: 0
  
  They still execute the mentally ill there
  Right. You'd better not go down to Texas.
3. Re:Texas is still a..... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 13:13 · Score: 0
  
  Well why don't you come on down?
  Maybe we can move you to the front of the line.
4. Re:Texas is still a..... by RightSaidFred99 · 2011-12-17 13:14 · Score: 1
  
  Hmm.. Your subtle political banter is too high above me. GW Bush you say? Rick Perry? Texas? Your insights are way to unique for me to understand.
Samsung, not Apple. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 10:36 · Score: 0

Odd how the article seems to give Apple all the credit, for what is apparently a Samsung investment.
1. Re:Samsung, not Apple. by Drakino · 2011-12-17 11:36 · Score: 1
  
  Apple created the demand, and Samsung is the company that can meet the demand Apple has created. Credit is fine to apply to both companies, not just one or the other.
Well by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 10:40 · Score: 0

You will know we are in a serious depression when manufacturing really comes back to the US.
1. Re:Well by couchslug · 2011-12-17 12:00 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  "You will know we are in a serious depression when manufacturing really comes back to the US."
  You know when we don't price our labor out of the market we get more investment.
  Bridgestone, Continental, MTU, BMW all invest in the US because it makes sense as their labor prices rise and ours become affordable.
  
  --
  "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
'Need to work on our math skills. by lance_of_the_apes · 2011-12-17 10:46 · Score: 1

1.6 million square feet is a lot more than nine football fields.
It's really not that strange. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 11:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

Business relationships among large corporations are not so simplistic as slashdotters like to assume.
1)
Pre existing contracts are not usually nullified by new lawsuits unless specified in the terms of said contract.
2)
Large companies, such as Samsung, often have multiple business units that operate mostly independently and may or may not care, or even know details of, legal action underway in another business unit. There are even examples (Sony and Fox come to mind.) of one division of a company suing another division of the same corporation.
3)
Assumptions made by slashdotters about the morality notwithstanding; among companies past a certain size, and both Apple and Samsung qualify, lawsuits (and especially patent lawsuits) don't imply malice or hard feelings of any particular kind. They're simply negotiation or competition by alternate means.
1. Re:It's really not that strange. by fortfive · 2011-12-17 15:26 · Score: 1
  
  Wish I had a mod point for you.
  I was going to argue about the ridiculousness of 2) until I read 3); very well stated.
Production in the US??? by lennier1 · 2011-12-17 11:04 · Score: 0

Shouldn't they prefer parts which actually work?
So I'll be buying me an apple. by approachingZero+ · 2011-12-17 11:19 · Score: 1

Look. I'm more excited about this than Lohan showing up in Playboy. This is really good news.

--
'I don't know what it's called. I just know the sound it makes, when it takes a man's life.' ~ Four Leaf Tayback
it's just a chip. by pbjones · 2011-12-17 11:21 · Score: 1

It's the cheapest major part in the whole unit. cynical me says that is just a token gesture by Samsung, and may be just part of a deal to stop Apple shopping elsewhere.

--
There was an unknown error in the submission.
1. Re:it's just a chip. by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-12-17 15:57 · Score: 1
  
  A token gesture that cost Samsung $9B?
Only 5 people will probably get it though but... by LiroXIV · 2011-12-17 11:41 · Score: 1

I'm certain I know how Ghost will react to this one (well, he's this online political show guy I listen to. Basically, he's from Austin, a manly capitalist Texan, who keeps getting trolled on by 4chan-types)
Sony... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 11:50 · Score: 0

So much for the saying "Because Caucasians are too damn tall" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQa4HHkhwVg
Multinational by tepples · 2011-12-17 11:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

Are you claiming that only (or even mostly) citizens of East Asian countries own Samsung stock? Here's a hint: Multinational publicly traded corporations are called "multinational" because not only do they operate in multiple countries but they also have shareholders in multiple countries.
1. Re:Multinational by rahvin112 · 2011-12-17 14:39 · Score: 1
  
  Multinational means they market and sell products across international borders. It does not mean ownership is international. Without looking I wouldn't be surprised if Samsung is traded openly in more than one country but with more than 90% of shareholders in a single country and more than 50% of the stock concentrated in several individuals hands in that country the company is a Korean Multi-national. The vast majority of employees will be Korean, and all the profit returns to Korea.
2. Re:Multinational by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-12-17 15:44 · Score: 1
  
  In case of Samsung in particular, its stock only trades on the Korean stock market.
3. Re:Multinational by Guy+Harris · 2011-12-17 17:46 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  In case of Samsung in particular, its stock only trades on the Korean stock market.
  Not exactly - it also trades on the London and Luxembourg stock exchanges, but what's sold there might be their Global Depository Receipts. Apparently, "as someone residing outside Korea, [I] may invest in Samsung stock (005930, 005935) through a qualified institutional broker in Seoul", and "For information regarding investment in Samsung GDR, [I should] contact [my] broker."
  Apparently a slight majority of their stock, and a significant majority of their preferred stock, is foreign-held, although I don't know whether there's anything those pie charts are leaving out. The "List of a Major Shareholder & Related Parties" includes several individuals with Korean names and affiliates with names that include the string "Samsung" (today's lesson is brought to you by the letters "c" "h" "a" "e" "b" "o", and "l"), and the "List of Shareholders with the Ownership of 5% and above" includes Good Old American First National City Bank, err, umm, Citibank, along with Samsung Life Insurance and National Pension Service (probably meaning the Korean national pension service)
4. Re:Multinational by oxdas · 2011-12-17 18:46 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  My understanding is that Samsung uses a complex circular ownership structure with Samsung Everland at the top. This allow Lee GunHee and family to completely control Samsung even while owning only a small piece of the pie. This form of ownership is not valid for a public company in the United States, but Korea has different rules. Other companies achieve this same effect in other ways. Newscorp, for example, uses a multiclass stock structure whereby the family owns a small minority of the stock, but retain near majority voting rights.
5. Re:Multinational by Guy+Harris · 2011-12-17 18:56 · Score: 1
  
  My understanding is that Samsung uses a complex circular ownership structure with Samsung Everland at the top. This allow Lee GunHee and family to completely control Samsung even while owning only a small piece of the pie. This form of ownership is not valid for a public company in the United States, but Korea has different rules. Other companies achieve this same effect in other ways. Newscorp, for example, uses a multiclass stock structure whereby the family owns a small minority of the stock, but retain near majority voting rights.
  Yeah, I was wondering whether there was, for example, some other form of shareholding that didn't show up in the pie charts, perhaps along the lines of the "A and B shares" type of stuff you mentioned for News Corporation.
6. Re:Multinational by GlobalEcho · 2011-12-18 02:51 · Score: 2
  
  Even for a chaebol, Samsung is pretty corrupt. I will be interested in this book (Think Samsung) by their ex legal officer, if it is ever translated.
Logistics by tepples · 2011-12-17 12:01 · Score: 2

Juggling that worldwide logistics effort is no mean feat; but they don't mix much in the way of dell technology into the sauce. It's like fedex with driver updates
You call Dell a "logistics" operation and then compare it to FedEx? I was waiting for the UPS punchline.
and peopel will want nuke plants more by Joe_Dragon · 2011-12-17 12:16 · Score: 1

Nuclear power is your friend. mr burns
1. Re:and peopel will want nuke plants more by Turbine2k5 · 2011-12-17 17:18 · Score: 1
  
  Nuclear power is your friend. mr burns
  That's fine. We can store the waste in your home. No dice.
  And both solar and wind energy have the big problem of scale.
  It's a shame we can't utilize nerdrage as an alternate energy source...
  
  --
  I can't think of a good sig, so I'll pirate yours.
2. Re:and peopel will want nuke plants more by dave420 · 2011-12-17 17:23 · Score: 1
  
  With a sane nuclear power program, there is no waste.
3. Re:and peopel will want nuke plants more by Turbine2k5 · 2011-12-17 17:31 · Score: 1
  
  Show me a sane nuke program today, and I'll show you an industry that's lobbying against it.
  
  --
  I can't think of a good sig, so I'll pirate yours.
Wait until Apple makes an LCD TV... by tlambert · 2011-12-17 12:42 · Score: 4, Funny

Every friggin LCD TV manufactured since the dawn of LCD TVs look and feel the same. If it weren't for the glowing 'Sony' emblem on mine,
Wait until Apple makes an LCD TV... it will be prettier, more expensive, and have an Apple logo on it which won't glow except to let you know that it's off. It will also have a single sheet of laser cut something or other somewhere on it, and probably laser pin holes so you can't see the LEDs unless they're on.
-- Terry
1. Re:Wait until Apple makes an LCD TV... by giorgist · 2011-12-17 17:59 · Score: 1
  
  <p>Wait until Apple makes an LCD TV... it will be prettier, more expensive, and have an Apple logo on it which won't glow except to let you know that it's off. It will also have a single sheet of laser cut something or other somewhere on it, and probably laser pin holes so you can't see the LEDs unless they're on.</p><p>-- Terry</p></quote>
  
  Yes, and then Apple will sue every LCD TV manufacturer for copying their form.
2. Re:Wait until Apple makes an LCD TV... by Guy+Harris · 2011-12-17 18:42 · Score: 1
  
  Wait until Apple makes an LCD TV... it will be prettier, more expensive, and have an Apple logo on it which won't glow except to let you know that it's off. It will also have a single sheet of laser cut something or other somewhere on it, and probably laser pin holes so you can't see the LEDs unless they're on.
  No, the Apple logo will only glow when it's on. However, there will be something right below the screen that will pulse when it's off and be off when it's on (unlike our Vizio, which glows white when it's on and orange when it's off).
  And at the bottom of the screen it'll show an image of the knobs on an old DuMont TV, to make people old enough to remember those desktop calendar pads and bookmark ribbons in address books comfortable.
Brilliant! by tlambert · 2011-12-17 13:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

1. Destroy economy so wages are depressed
2. U.S. now source of cheap labor
3. Best of both worlds - outsourced wages with domestic location
4. Profit!
5. Rich get richer, poor get poorer
6. Repeat as desired
And they'll have a built-in market, with all those people in the U.S. who are flush with cash.
Wait...
I think I'm sensing a flaw in your logic about that actually being the plan, here...
If only I could put my finger on the place it was broken...
And then push to kill that region of your brain so you'd stop saying stupid things like this.
-- Terry
1. Re:Brilliant! by sociocapitalist · 2011-12-17 22:34 · Score: 1
  
  "And they'll have a built-in market, with all those people in the U.S. who are flush with cash."
  The US is not the only market these products will be sold in. The parent's argument is completely valid that the previous export of jobs, now followed by lowered domestic labor costs, only benefits the rich though I don't think that destroying the economy was done with any actual deliberate planning.
  
  --
  blindly antisocialist = antisocial
and no taxes paid by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 13:10 · Score: 0

What do you want to bet there is some Cronism that allows Samsung to pay no taxes on this.
1. Re:and no taxes paid by germansausage · 2011-12-17 17:32 · Score: 1
  
  Cronism? WTF is Cronism? If you mean Cronyism, that word doesn't fit either.??
Intel by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 13:32 · Score: 0

Intel is in Austin with about 1000 engineers.
Perhaps done for supply control by maxwells_deamon · 2011-12-17 13:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

Factories in China are known for making clones in the same factory after hours. If you can count the numbers of a critical chip exported, you can delay the introduction of clones to market. Yes, I know you can not prevent copies eventiually
1. Re:Perhaps done for supply control by smellsofbikes · 2011-12-17 17:24 · Score: 1
  
  The aftermarket clones is, I'm told, precisely why my company -- and several other major analog IC designers -- have all their fabs in the US or Europe. They do test engineering and packaging in China, but that's all. As for preventing copies, one of the interesting things about that is that in a lot of markets, the process of reverse engineering, producing silicon, producing test hardware, getting packaging validated, and getting the chips to market means that by the time those reverse-engineered chips hit the mass market the originals are halfway through their lifetimes, have already recouped the engineering investment, and are being sold at a fairly slim profit margin, so 80% of the money that is going to be made off that socket has already been made. Second to market, with cheaper chips, is a really tough business.
  
  --
  Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
2. Re:Perhaps done for supply control by Howitzer86 · 2011-12-17 21:29 · Score: 1
  
  This must be why all our quartz space heaters look alike.
  (I had the first one, it lasted 2 years before one of the quartz tubes died and became a potential fire hazard)
3. Re:Perhaps done for supply control by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 07:05 · Score: 0
  
  I suspect this move is in part because the US military and certain 3-letter agencies really want to start buying iPads, but also want to be more sure of exactly what they're getting in the box (i.e. no surprises introduced in China).
  The captcha for this post made me laugh: echelon
Where else but America? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 13:41 · Score: 0

When you have a highly automated process that needs only very unskilled labor to keep eyeballs on it, where else but America can you go to find that unskilled labor?
1. Re:Where else but America? by Osgeld · 2011-12-17 14:41 · Score: 1
  
  china
2. Re:Where else but America? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 01:36 · Score: 0
  
  China is mostly skilled manufacturing labor. Chinese workers are actually trained and know what they're doing.
  Americans are uneducated low-skill workers, which is perfect for a job where the only requirement is to hit the stop button when you see a red light, and call someone smarter than you to come fix it (usually a Chinese or Indian immigrant with an engineering degree).
  Americans are morons.
Maybe its just me. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 14:04 · Score: 0

Maybe its just me. But, if I were Apple I would be a ll nervous about having a company I'm trying to sue all over the world to stop their products from sale making the brains of my best products.
These are mostly not tech jobs by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 14:44 · Score: 0

The majority of these jobs are akin to working in almost any other automated factory setting. Not very many big salaries to be found there.
Not much improvement by PopeRatzo · 2011-12-17 14:47 · Score: 1

Apple Outsources A5 Chip Manufacture ... To Texas
I was hoping that Apple would bring those jobs back to America.
Well, I guess the Third World needs jobs too.

--
You are welcome on my lawn.
The "religion" of the knowledge economy. by Ostracus · 2011-12-17 14:50 · Score: 1

But as this little Apple story tells us, manufacturing seems to come in two kinds at the moment. Lots of jobs but very low wages assembly work, the stuff that is done in China. Or very few jobs indeed high tech stuff. Which is nice, sure, but it just doesn’t employ tens of millions of people, not even tens of thousands.
So in other words the "knowledge economy" will not be our economic savior?

And the actual value isn’t in making the things anyway, it’s in the designing of them and the selling. Which is the part of the process that America dominates anyway.
ProtectIP

--
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
1. Re:The "religion" of the knowledge economy. by Z00L00K · 2011-12-17 21:28 · Score: 1
  
  So in other words the "knowledge economy" will not be our economic savior?
  You can't have a sustained sell of knowledge - sooner or later the knowledge you have is getting obsolete and if you don't work with the knowledge you have it won't develop. So if you sell knowledge in manufacturing and you don't manufacture yourself then the stepping stone you use will collapse.
  
  ProtectIP
  Is a great tool for lawyers but won't feed anyone else.
  
  --
  If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Your six month old article means what exactly? by SuperKendall · 2011-12-17 15:39 · Score: 4, Insightful

Here I have pointed out a figure from a current article published today, and you bring up some crusty thing from six months ago just to try and pull yourself out of the hole you made? And to top it off, it only offers one end of the 500-700 range given...
Just admit you made up the numbers and should actually read before posting next time.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
1. Re:Your six month old article means what exactly? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 02:15 · Score: 0
  
  Wow, a 0.009% increase in manufacturing employment, not 0.004%? Thanks for setting us straight, homie. Looks like the future of the world just got a little brighter.
Nothing new by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 16:23 · Score: 0

Nothing new, Samsung make IC, in China, USA, Korea, Japan Since 90s for consumers in those countries.
Its make sense if consumer are in those countries.
Apple didn't "outsource" anything... by Guy+Harris · 2011-12-17 17:31 · Score: 2

...at least not in the sense that they used to make those chips in their own fabs and are now having somebody else fab them. They've always outsourced the production of all their chip designs, as they've never owned any fabs. (Well, not as far as I know, at least.)
(And, unless you consider either the California Republic or the Republic of Texas to still exist, they didn't offshore it, either - not even if you include doing stuff across one or more land borders "offshoring". :-))
1. Re:Apple didn't "outsource" anything... by sociocapitalist · 2011-12-17 22:28 · Score: 1
  
  It's 'inshoring'...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inshoring
  
  --
  blindly antisocialist = antisocial
Not exactly. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 19:52 · Score: 1

1) India and China didn't just add labor, they added demand and as their middle class has grown, that demand has grown.
2) While I'll grant it grows ever more efficient, automation had taken a good part of its toll long before China opened up. Consider, industrialization occurred in the 19th century, but middle class was at its strongest in the mid and late 20th century.
3) While considering industrialization, compare the 19th and 20th centuries. Did the demand for horseshoes remain the same in the 20th century as it did in the 19th? No. Markets change and more importantly, new markets emerge. I believe you're underestimate the number of new markets about to emerge and the number of people that will be required to work in them.
With all that said, your most fundamental mistake is focusing too much on this dime store economics bullshit. There is plenty in this world to feed, cloth and shelter every human being on the planet, providing him or her with entertainment, healthcare, etc. It really is all there. There are fields to be tilled, people who need to eat and people who want to work. The issue at hand are the barriers that prevent them from doing that. No economic system is perfect, each must be tempered.
Before your next response please review the taxation rates, unemployment rates and debt as a percentage of GDP for the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. (Austerity isn't the solution, spending is.)
1. Re:Not exactly. by ckaminski · 2011-12-18 09:36 · Score: 1
  
  Spending my ass. The reason we had such growth in the 40's 50's and 60's was capital growth, - not debt leverage. A negative savings rate is what is killing this country.
  
  Austerity is *EXACTLY* the solution.
So it begins. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 20:04 · Score: 0

Wages are rising in China and falling in the United States. Naturally we'll become the cheap place to build shit, for our new Chinese masters.
Shit.
1. Re:So it begins. by unixisc · 2011-12-18 00:59 · Score: 1
  
  This should be good. Finally, all Chinese jobs will get outsourced here, unemployment will go down, we will become rich while the Chinese suffer a major depression like we are now, possibly resulting in the fall of the Communists, freeing of Tibet, a painful unification w/ Taiwan (similar to Germany's reunification) and a major decline in their power. Finally, their wages will be lower, ours will be higher and then...
  
  Oh, wait....
On the contrary, work should be respected by Kohath · 2011-12-17 20:18 · Score: 4, Insightful

All honest work is noble. Anyone who does an honest day's work and tries to do a good job should have our respect. They certainly have mine.
1. Re:On the contrary, work should be respected by unkiereamus · 2011-12-17 23:01 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  The corollary to that that I live by is that "Anyone who does a job I wouldn't do, deserves my respect.".
  
  I worked as a temp on a construction job once. After a week, I quit. I couldn't take it, my back and knees were killing me, not to mention I was bored out of my mind. I will never work construction again, I'd rather flip burgers for less money, but despite the fact that I've since found my niche in a semi-professional field, I still respect those that work as unskilled construction labor...those poor bastards.
  
  --
  I needed a sig so people would know who I am, but I was too drunk to make something witty, so you get this instead.
2. Re:On the contrary, work should be respected by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 03:01 · Score: 0
  
  Spoken with all the noble ignorance of an idealogue.
3. Re:On the contrary, work should be respected by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 03:35 · Score: 0
  
  Spoken with all the ignoble ignorance of an uneducated cretin that lives in its parent's basement.
4. Re:On the contrary, work should be respected by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 04:46 · Score: 0
  
  The average Fortune500 CEO salary is 11 million a year or a little under 10k a day. Is that honest enough for you? Is that a noble job?
5. Re:On the contrary, work should be respected by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-19 07:12 · Score: 0
  
  Unskilled??
Hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-17 20:20 · Score: 0

Probably has something to do with the fact that China owns at least part of literally every important mine in the US now.
And by important, I mean "precious metal" mines. Not sure about the ones we mine for fuel.
I guess in the long run they don't want to mine it here, ship it across the Pacific, refine & process it, then sell the product back here.
So quick recap- by bryan1945 · 2011-12-17 22:52 · Score: 1

Do we like Apple more or less now?

--
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Nokia by jones_supa · 2011-12-18 00:57 · Score: 1

As an interesting fact, Nokia has had a fair chunk of manufacturing still happening here in Finland. Most of the Nokia gear I've bought here have been "Made in Finland". One could have thought that such a big player would've made everything explicitly in China a long time ago.
Texas the plant is still not an American one. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-12-18 06:04 · Score: 0

Corporate profit runs right out of the country.
Never to be U.S. taxed again.