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Why Google Is Disabling Kids' Gmail Accounts
theodp writes "The Washington Post's Elizabeth Flock managed to hold Google's feet to the fire and get an explanation of sorts for why it's making kids cry by disabling their Gmail accounts after years of use. Giving 12-year-olds access to Gmail — unless they are using Google Apps for Education accounts through their school — is proving to be as formidable a task for Google as making renewable energy cheaper than coal. But what about that viral 'Dear Sophie' commercial, asked Flock, in which a father creates a Gmail account for his baby daughter and uses it to send her photos, videos, and messages that chronicle her growing up? 'The implied understanding,' replied a Google spokesman, 'is that the girl in the story does not have access to the account, but that she will have access to it "someday."'"
Is it Google's fault? Or COPPA's? Or both?
Like every 9 year old on MySpace ever did... just put in the wrong birthyear and everything stays cool.
Seems a good lesson that often in life one must tell lies of varying degrees. Fibbing about age is one of those.
Many websites and services (email, web hosting / blog sites, facebook, etc) have age stipulations ranging from 13 to 21, which effectively makes much of the web useless to young people unless they lie.
One day my pre-teen-aged daughter wanted to set up an avatar for her Google mail account, like her best friend had. A nice pony or whatever. So we have opened the settings and one of things that Google wanted to know was the date of birth. After naively filling in the date (*not* the real number, but still way low age) ... poooof ... the account was gone. And mind you, this was account my daughter has created in an "IT" class. In my country we do not have educational accounts the article talks about.
In one second the account is there, the next ... gone.
Google wanted scan of my ID or something.
YOU ARE NOT GONNA GET IT GOOGLE!!! You Do. Not. Need. A. Copy. Of. My. Passport.
So we have created another account with a slightly different name, but my daughter has been upset for quite a long time. Still is, in fact. And I had to explain why Google are such ... bloody morons.
The same day I have made backup of my entire Google mail account. I do not trust them anymore that they won't pull the same stunt with MY personal account.
Nuff said.
It's probably the easiest thing to do to maximize their expected value. Instead of spending billions fighting some class action lawsuit over privacy, they avoid the issua altogether when it's clear that the person is under 13 (when told by the user themselves)
I've heard this whining about facebook accounts, too. "My poor kid got kicked off facebook, this is a travesty..."
Blah, whatever. You broke the provider's rule - "no kids allowed". The provider has the rule because the government passed laws about that stuff - "think of the children". The provider would get in trouble collecting all that private data on kids - it's no problem for adults - they "have nothing to hide".
Apathy gets you these nice unintended consequences. Enjoy!
So the government passes a law, which prohibits children from using email service. So the children have to write letters the old fashioned way, and send them via the US Postal Service . . . which is owned by the government! No conflict of interest here!
On the good side, being that so many couples tend to have children, a lot of folks might be pissed off at this law. And then they might start putting more political pressure for scrutiny on laws that are being passed by the government to regulate the Internet.
And grandchildren will have an excuse for not writing to their grandparents:
"I wrote to you Grandpa, but you know how the US Post Service is, they tend to lose things . . . "
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
In reply to some comments / sentiments in this thread regarding how quick Google is to delete accounts, be wary of creating a Google+ account / user profile.
There have been many reports of Google+ accounts being flagged for various reasons (username choosen, duplicate acct, complaints from others, etc) resulting in the linked services, such as, GMail being suspended / terminated too.
Imho, avoid creating a Google+ account - not so easy now that Google is rolling that out across services, so the next best option is not create a profile; leave it as empty as possible. And keep services separate ... don't use the same Google+ account for GMail as one does for other services (ie. YouTube).
So what for the kids who want to email their Grandparents (the the girl in TFA?) =)
Hi All,
I too was put off by Google's disabling of my son's account, but I decided to give Google a chance and see if they would be reasonable. I sent a note to them in the only way I could come up with, by writing it (by hand on a paper), scanning together, my ID, and my note which was an explanation that my son was really under age, and that as his parent, I was the "holder" of his account, but he was using it under my supervision. I sent the note to their photo ID link, and his account was reinstated. I assume that they actually read the note, and allowed this, but it is possible they have an automated process that accepts any photo you send as ID, and automatically reinstates the account. If they do, shame on them. If they don't, I applaud them for being reasonable.
Rob
True. However, many young people rely on social networking sites to meet up and coordinate activities, as well as, chat directly through them - the major ones, in particular, Facebook and Google+, have similar age restrictions to that of GMail.
It seems like a lot of people are unhappy with Google's FREE service. If you don't like how Google is running THEIR business, start your own or find one that is age appropriate for kids. I fail to understand why people get mad when they can't get exactly what they want from a company that is offering their services for no additional charge to the user. If the users were paying something, ie AOL, then i would understand.
I think we need to teach our kids to set limits on what information to give out. I see all too often people giving out sensitive information just because someone asked for it. We all assume that information that is asked for is required or that a business will not do business with us if we don't provide it. That's if we're dealing with a person.
With the Internet, we are dealing with some script that cannot be reasoned with or questioned. Therefore, one has no choice but to lie in order to use the service. If I don't like it leave it? I've done that when a company insisted on the real data and proof to back it up. And what difference does it make if I make myself to be a decade older or younger?
Because we all know that this data is bought and sold and mined by other entities - like government looking for bogeymen. I don't care what the site says about never sharing data. There could be pressure from some government agency and they WILL cave, some lawyer for a lawsuit or they will be bought out by someone who has no respect for customer's privacy - most of corporate America.
We should teach our kids to give bogus information because business has absolutely no justifiable reason to collect it.
And don't get me started about the cult of marketing data in business - they think the more information they have, they can magically figure out how to sell more of their shit; which is all the more reason to lie.
So, for al the reason Google suggests Chromebooks, how do I let my (hypothetical) kid use a Chromebook without giving them access to my email?
Google Apps for Education sounds great, but I've yet to run into a school using it.
COPPA is an American bullshit law and they've been applying it in Canada. What happens to my kid's Android phone if his Google account is deactivated? Unfortunately due to our crappy school system, I count on that thing for him to get home from school.
When I was ten (1997), I had an account on virtually all website/email services that were big (relatively) at the time. There was never question of deleting my account because I was a kid.
Stripping kids of the right to use that kind of service is the same as stripping kids from having the right to use the Internet. This is preposterous and stupid.
American people, get rid of that law.
This law is part of your broken legal system, not anyone else's. Why should it be foisted upon the rest of the planet?*
Several years ago, my son got his first android phone, the G1. He asked my permission to lie about his age to set up an account. I was already aware that Google tries to do this and said OK. He is now old enough to be "legal" and has come to no harm. This was in spite of various crazies advising me to put Net Nanny or some other corporate nonsense on my PC and then not allowing him to use it unless I was with him. I decided to educate him about the internet, as I already had with his older sister.
It was my responsibility and not too hard. This nonsense has been one of my few black marks for Google.
*And then they start up Google music but limit it to the 4% of humanity actually subject to the US legal system.
Come on guys, either be global with your services or global by not applying insane US laws on the rest of us.
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
Apparently Google is doing this is to comply with COPPA. Is the US congress teaching children to lie and defraud web sites like Google? I am reminded of a quote from the movie "2010: The Year We Make Contact".
"HAL was ordered to lie ... by people who find it very easy to lie."
This happened to my 10 year-old daughter. I created a Gmail account for her. They never asked for a birthday or age when we created the account several years ago. My daughter used the account to email her grandparents and friends at school.
She and her friends used the Buzz feature that Gmail provides to share funny videos and jokes with her other friends on Gmail. Recently Google killed Buzz and replaced it with Google+. My daughter thought that by going in to Google+ she could get the features of Buzz back again. Once she went in to Google+ and entered her birthday, Google disabled all of her accounts.
This has nothing to do with COPPA. Other email providers like Yahoo allow children under 13 years of age to have accounts. The issue is that Google is now gathering information for Google+ profiles that DOES now violate COPPA and they have no way to block that collection of data for those that want a simple email account. An ISP providing a private email account would not violate COPPA by providing email accounts to kids under the age of 13.
To use Google services you have to agree to some type of terms. A contract with a minor is not enforceable in the U.S. Google has to have an adult involved somehow.
Dog years are a made up thing. How long a planet takes to orbit the Sun, however, is how a year is defined. So just choose an appropriate planet. If the site operator is smart enough to specify Earth years don't sign up there. They are obviously hacker types who will steal all your personal info.
Google doesn’t allow users who are under the age of 13 to have Google Accounts, unless they are using Google Apps for Education accounts through their school.
And hoes does Google handle this for home schooled children?
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
fuck COPPA.
the moral of the story is that discretion is the best general policy when dealing with the law. Utopia is fiction, not reality.
Just download OpenOffice and actually get some work done.
Google apps are only good for BASIC TEXT. Beyond that, the service is below garbage.
Won't somebody please think of the CHILDREN? (And their inalienable rights to the pursuit of an email account?)
If my comment didn't sound as good in your head as it did in mine, then I guess we all know who's to blame
Taco, is that you?!
How about fuck you Galestar for focusing on one small part of the argument and dismissing the other facts presented.
The users are Google's product. They could have done what Microsoft did with Hotmail, but instead they went the route that says 'come back when you're older'. This means either Google can't turn off their marketing machine or they don't want to.
Facebook is full of underage users and lets them "go legit" when they turn 13. As a consequence, they've captured this audience and all of the adults that they'll grow into (as well as a goodly number of their parents). Google+ requires that users be eighteen. That's ridiculous. Ostensibly, it is temporary but I've seen no suggestion from Google that this is any sort of priority. This is why Google+ will never challenge Facebook. When Amazon and Facebook merge, they'll rule the world. How very unfortunate.
Let me get this straight... here we have some parents who created Gmail accounts for their young children, fully aware that this was in violation of Google's teams of service. Then they became upset when Google deleted the accounts. How is this Google's fault? Clearly these so-called adults are missing the whole point. They lied about their kids' ages, and got caught. And instead of accepting responsibility for breaking the rules, which would be the mature thing to do, they got mad at Google. It's disappointing that these parents set such a bad example for their children.
I personally find COPPA annoying as hell as an adult living in my mom's basement. When I want to go look at a "mature" game trailer, I usually just scroll all the way down instead of bothering to type in my birthdate. The Steam store thinks I was born January 1st 1903.
I think that the common age for children using internet is after 15 years..
I don't think you 'get' COPPA. It doesn't say an internet service needs to monitor your children. It is saying in essence the exact opposite. It says that they have to disclose what data they collect, who they share it with, limit the data collected to only what is necessary to use the service, can't collect any information about the child unless the parent gives explicit permission. If the parent gives permission to collect the data, it allows the parents to tell the service to stop and to delete the child's data. It also lists other rules on what data can be collected and how it is shared... but read it yourself I'm not going to list it all here. The only thing that pisses me off is that I can't stipulate the same conditions to Google for myself.
COPPA is a tool to aid the parent and COPPA is anathema to everything Google is about: collecting data. Data is the life blood of the company; literally. It is easier for them to just say no to those under 13 than to spend a ton of money to set up the required controls. Especially, as I think, most parents are likely to chose not to allow their child's data to be collected nor shared (and I can't blame them one bit). And it is the data that is important to Google, not the child. It is with the data that they generate their revenue. So in a nutshell, they have two choices: 1) spend a ton of money to create and maintain the controls to meet the COPPA requirements and keep children using GMail and other services (which also eat up bandwidth and disk space, both of which also cost money) without gaining any revenue generating data from them in return, or 2) simply bar children from using Google services. Option 2 is way cheaper. Remember in a business the number one rule is that money coming in MUST be greater than money going out. Google is just following their number one rule. You libertarians and neocons can't possibly argue Google's position in this respect, can you? Hell, even business friendly liberals.. yes they exist... can't argue either.
Financially the choice they made makes much more sense for their business (and they are a business, not your cuddly free email provider). Remember, the only reason Google cares at all about the child or anyone else who puts their personal data on a Google server is because they put their personal data on a Google server.
You can try and say it is up to the parent to monitor the child which is a good starting point, but what are you going to do when the biggest services tell you they are going to store and possibly share (at their discretion not yours) your child's data and there is nothing you can do about it? Tell your child not to use the internet? Good luck with that. Seriously... good luck. The rest of us understand that you can say no, but if they can get access to the internet, anywhere, they are going to start using it. The library, a friends house, wherever. Especially if all their friends are using it, and then it will happen no matter what you say or do (unless you are one of those who chose to live in the backwoods of Idaho because 'the government is out to get you'... but if that's the case, you have more serious problems, and it ain't the government). So you might as well have them use it at home. And it would be nice to know who knows their name and where they live, and better yet, tell them to mind their own business.
As to how to verify the parent:
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
They signed the "safe haven" contract. This means they will have to obey the law of the country they are providing the service in. If that law lets minors have e-mail accounts or does not legally require a copy of a passport or anything, Google has to abide to that law. This is silly and to me, it's proof Google does not abide to the "safe haven" policy. Don't be evil? Don't be silly......
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
Science produced the computer in front of you. Science has given you medicine, electricity, roads, cars, air travel, etc. The bible is little more than a collection of poorly written stories rewritten by the ancient equivalent of hippies. God isn't holy, he's just anime. He makes about as much sense as a character as that weird dinosaur guy from Dragon Ball Z.
By the way, surveys have shown that when it comes to knowledge about religion and the bible in particular, agnostics and atheists tend to know more than the religious. It is a little counter-intuitive, but it's true. That was his reference and it went over your head.
Example:
http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx
I don't think I've ever seen a website (aside from a few children's websites owned by big companies like Disney) that allows registration AND doesn't outright deny 13 and under persons from joining because COPPA is such a pain to comply with.
I have to admit that I've seen COPPA issues firsthand. Ages ago, someone in my gaming clan signed up and set his birthdate off by two years (he was 14, but accidentally inputted 12). I was hit with forms that had to be faxed and stored as records. Faxes and paper records to manage a forum for a Kingdom of Loathing clan! I manually adjusted the kid's age to the (proper) 14, and we instituted a rule that you had to be at least that old to join the forums.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
I would assume that this excerpt from the Google Terms of Service (Section 2.3):
- You may not use the Services and may not accept the Terms if (a) you are not of legal age to form a binding contract with Google
Means that you are not even allowed to do a Google search (using their website without accepting their terms)...
Anyone better informed?
IAIFARSIJDPOOTV - I Am In Fact A Reality Star; I Just Don't Play One On TV
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Laws which are teaching millions of young people to lie. Good work foolish politician people.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
1) WHAAAAAA!!!!! I want them to do what I want and not what they want!!!!!! I BROKE THE TERMS OF SERVICE BUT IT"S THEIR FAULT!!! WAHHHHH!!!!
OH please.... It's a free service that the parent/child broke the terms of service on. So good for Google. If the parent doesn't like it or the child then they should get the child emancipated and then start over, or they should start there own email service and do what they want.
2) Does a company get so big and ingrained into our lives that they become a right and not a privilege? Should Facebook, Google, Slashdot become so big and used by so many people that they can not turn anyone away or remove people? You know that in the US the government started giving phones away (with free call minutes) to people because it's apparently a right now a days to have and use a phone. Also the US government is starting have cable operators to provide extremely low costing internet access (and super low cost laptops to use) to people because apparently it's a right to surf the web.
Where does this stop? And shouldn't the down to earth items be made a "right" first if anything. I'm talking about water, food, clothing, shelter. Anything above that is a privilege as they should be. And I know water, food, clothing, shelter are privileges that you work to earn. I'm just saying if they are going to make anything a right then they should start with the Necessities of Life first.
"But what about that viral 'Dear Sophie' commercial, asked Flock, in which a father creates a Gmail account for his baby daughter and uses it to send her photos, videos, and messages that chronicle her growing up? 'The implied understanding,' replied a Google spokesman, 'is that the girl in the story does not have access to the account, but that she will have access to it "someday."'"
Um isn't giving the password to your account to someone else a TOS violation....and isn't using someone else's name to set-up an account also a TOS violation?
I just gave my 12 year old a Windows Phone. Needed to create a Live/Hotmail account (for Skydrive file syncing, Xbox avatar, purchases, etc). When entering her real birthday it prompted for parents email address. I received the email and needed to prove that I was over 18 by letting them charge 50 cents to a credit card. Total time involved -- maybe a couple of minutes. Of course this is not foolproof -- no way to prove that the 18 year old is really the responsible guardian but I bet this is enough to protect Microsoft from COPPA violations.
Then we went to Yahoo, and they do manage to provide this service for youngsters. She seems pretty happy with the service so far, and the hurdle to move to gmail later on is pretty large now, I suppose. Score one for Yahoo.
Who knew?
I thought it would be like one of those blank billboards with a "your ad here" kind of thing, but it looks like Google is trying to be the next Disney from the tone of that Sophie ad. I was stunned at the emotional outreach they use to gather more product for their customers.
I'm not sure why I'm still commenting as you obviously have no idea why we allow corporations to exist. (Hint: it's not to make gobs of money)
Oh, look! The Senate Subcommittee on Antitrust, Competition Policy and Consumer rights wants an FTC investigation of Google. It appears to have bipartisan support as well.
I'll go get my popcorn, the show is getting started.
[There's nothing wrong with being a big corporation, we need them to be an economic superpower. The problem comes in when the corporation stops benefiting the public and becomes an anti-competitive monopoly (or near monopoly). A little good will goes a long way in these situations. Canceling children's email accounts rather than turning off their marketing machine is not the best way to get that good will. Google is now on the fast track to getting a smackdown by the government, and it's the little things that are getting them there.]
But how much would it actually cost Google to run these services? I think doing this sort of thing and not enabling children to use their services is shooting themselves in the foot. They may not make money off these accounts now*, but these children are future customers^W people to market to, who they are potentially alienating or at least encouraging them to use their competitors.
*And I don't think that is true anyway, kids are (in general) suggestible and can be marketed to well, they may not have money of their own but many of them are good at getting their parents to buy them what they want.