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Totally Drug-Resistant TB Emerges In India

ananyo writes "Physicians in India have identified a form of incurable tuberculosis there, raising further concerns over increasing drug resistance to the disease (abstract). Although reports call this latest form a 'new entity,' researchers suggest that it is instead another development in a long-standing problem. The discovery makes India the third country in which a completely drug-resistant form of the disease has emerged, following cases documented in Italy in 2007 and Iran in 2009."

346 comments

  1. Not *totally* drug resistant by ArcherB · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We just haven't found a drug to fight it. And before people get on the anti-antibiotics bandwagon, if we didn't use antibiotics, then the simplest infection would be "Totally Drug-Resistant".

    Now if you want to speak of the "overuse" or preventative use of antibiotics, then go ahead.

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    1. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's no such thing as an anti-antibiotics bandwagon. Does not exist.

      If you search for the phrase "ban antibiotics" you will ONLY find results for people opposed to agricultural antibiotic use on healthy animals. That's it.

      There are enough stupid movements to hate without having to invent new ones.

    2. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by arnodf · · Score: 2

      exactly what I was thinking, in india antibiotics are used as if it was water.When I was there last year, newspapers adviced against eating honey because it was completely saturated with antibiotics. (another food scandal at the time was chickpeas coloured green and sold as peas)

    3. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by wolfsdaughter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem isn't using antibiotics to fight bacterial infections.

      The problem is incorrectly using antibiotics, much of which comes from IGNORANCE and POVERTY
      1) Ignorance: lack of education on how antibiotics work, and a frightening number of people stop taking the antibiotics as soon as they start feeling better - VERY BAD IDEA!

      2) Poverty: medicines are expensive, and so people who are tight on money will "share" drugs, with other people to save on costs. This goes hand in hand with ignorance about how the drugs work.

      The answer to this (and many other problems) is universal education and healthcare.

      --
      "Are they made from real Girl Scouts?" ~Wednesday Addams
    4. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Pssh, your anti-anti-anti ban movement isn't fooling anyone.

    5. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by tb()ne · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And yet for a Google search on "anti-antibiotics", the first page of results contains almost all links for mis/overuse of antibiotics in humans.

    6. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by David+Greene · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You misunderstand the problem. Antibiotics are not the problem. The overuse of antibiotics is the problem. I hear about this every single week from my wife, who is a provider. She constantly gets pressured by patients to prescribe antibiotics when they are clearly not necessary or justified. We have to change the culture of medical care here in the U.S.

      --

    7. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Luckyo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is a silly claim. There are antibiotics that can kill most of the resistant bacteria. We know many of them. Problem is, they also kill the host when host is human, typically by destroying kidneys or liver.

      It's not that we don't have the tools to kill these "super germs". We do. We just don't have the tools that kill the germs without killing the humans. Essentially we're paving the path for bacteria that adapt to antibiotics as a threat to their existence by remaining/becoming vulnerable to antibiotics that destroy various internal organs, and becoming resistant to those that do not.

    8. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      GP: "Now if you want to speak of the "overuse" or preventative use of antibiotics, then go ahead."

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    9. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by NatasRevol · · Score: 1, Troll

      Sorry, but that's not THE answer. It's AN answer. And a very expensive & unpractical one.

      The answer that will be done is...natural selection.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    10. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This comment got modded up for being insightful? It should have been modded for being funny instead. Overuse of antibiotics is a huge concern to all doctors and nurses... just ask any of them, they all know about it.

      People get the slightest cough and suddenly they want the strongest antibiotic known to man. This leads to diseases becoming immune to them.

    11. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Except that new antibiotics aren't really being developed anymore. The last one in wide use, I forget which, was brought out some 20 years ago. The reason: high development cost, combined with fast bacterial adaptation mean that pharmaceutical companies aren't even able to recoup their investment before a drug falls out of use. Source: my infectology professor.
      Two possible solutions to this problem I see is raising the price of antibiotics or introducing government subsidies for development.

    12. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if we didn't use antibiotics, then the simplest infection would be "Totally Drug-Resistant".

      You're forgetting that our bodies are also a source of drugs. By using external antibiotics we have been able to radically and artificially accelerate our resistance to many diseases, but in doing so we have placed all our eggs in one basket.

    13. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They are *not* candy, some doctors prescribe them like they are and some patents demand them like they should be....

      All antibiotics by their very nature disrupt the balance of the non aggressive bacteria which your body tolerates to produce extra essential vitamins in the gut and to cloud out the explicitly pathogenic varieties in the skin and elsewhere. This means that they come with a risk of skin rashes, minor stomach upsets gas and other such issues, particularly heavy use may cause more serious issues on occasion. Because of these issues you should only take antibiotics for real infections or serious wounds not colds or coughs, unless you have particular risk factors.

      Despite these issues refusing them when you have a serious problem is madness, they are a powerful tool and a boon to our average lifespan and health that has not yet been equalled by any other single class of technology, wanting to cut unnecessary use to improve effectiveness and reduce risk is not the same as wanting to stop using them.

    14. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And nobody is immune from drug-resistant viri. It doesn't matter what your net worth is.

      It is much better to stop these outbreaks when they are small than when thousands or millions are sick and dieing.

      Uni healthcare is practical if done correctly and technology helps bring the costs down, and the service up.

    15. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I'm sure there's someone out there. There are groups against blood-transfusions, alcohol, disposable diapers. Just because Google doesn't show them in their search results does not mean that they don't exist.

      Having said that, I think you're right in that he's probably stretched/misunderstood the primary groups you can find by searching "ban antibiotics." There is another (much smaller) group that's unhappy with how antibiotics are used in humans (because it can do things like this) but they aren't against them as much as they dislike how the masses abuse them.

    16. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. You're probably thinking of Vancomycin, but there are definitely newer ones out there and more being developed to fight Vancomycin-resistant infections.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linezolid
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daptomycin

    17. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it ought to be illegal. Doctors should be losing their licenses and being prosecuted for this kind of crap, not just painkillers.

    18. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by wisnoskij · · Score: 0

      There are alternatives to antibiotics you know.

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      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    19. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you work in the pharmaceutical industry by any chance?

    20. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      It's also possible that a combination of existing drugs will kill it. AFAIK, that's how leprosy was cured.

      Of course, the more drugs you throw at a problem, the more likely the patient will have a bad reaction.

      --
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    21. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The answer to this (and many other problems) is universal education and healthcare."

      Do you know what a non-sequitur is?

    22. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your definition of "antibiotics" includes hammers and lightning.

    23. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      And how do you plan to crucify the patients who do not take the full course of antibiotics they are prescribed? As a doctor I just want to be sure you be fair to everyone under your tyrannical plan.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    24. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Interesting

      True enough.
      Actually there are a couple of means to attack this strain.
      1. We should sequence those strains and see if we can identify any weakness to exploit.
      2. Discover how their resistance works. For example strains that are resistant to say penicillin tend to make an enzyme that breaks down penicillin. So possibly one could make a drug that binds that enzyme and combine it with the antibiotic or change the antibiotic that the enzyme has no effect or even have the drug activated by the enzyme.
      3. Bacteriophages are an interesting but really under researched treatment in the West. The old USSR did a lot of research in to them and frankly we should start as well.

      Of course what is really scary are the folks that are no in "raw" milk. They are making claims that it can cure everything from cancer to Autism all the while providing an excellent vector for TB.

      --
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    25. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are two drugs that are used for TB: isoniazid and rifampicin.

      From the article:

      "The fact that no new first-line TB drugs have been developed for half a century has probably contributed to the emergence of strains that are unresponsive to treatment, says Mitnick. “If you keep using the same drugs for that long, resistance is inevitable.”"

      “The pharmaceutical industry had scant interest in TB for decades,” says Richard Chaisson, director of the Center for TB Research at the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland. “The industry pretty much concluded it wasn’t an attractive market, there was not enough potential profit.”

      This leads to an interesting point that the pharmaceutical industry cannot be given stewardship of protecting the public's health. Unless it's profitable they can't be bothered.

    26. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Sebastopol · · Score: 1

      Well put!

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    27. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if they all become useless before the developers can recoup their costs, where are the antibiotics that are being prescribed coming from?

    28. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by no-body · · Score: 1

      Ah - you probably haven't had or don't know somebody who had a drug-resistant bug and had "just" to wait until a drug is found...

      We just haven't found a drug

      What a jerk you are!

    29. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      All viruses are drug-resistant, the conversation is about bacteria.

      --
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    30. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By that logic, all diseases are curable. We just haven't found them yet. All maladies are curable, we just haven't found them yet. True statements, but very obvious, and totally useless.

    31. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by timeOday · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Universal healthcare and education would have innumerable benefits, but it would not halt the evolution of pathogens. I did find a source claiming perhaps 50% of antibiotics are used incorrectly, which is not good. But the economic rise of several populous nations, and the growing world population, will increase antibiotics use by much more than that, as well it should, saving millions of lives in the process. The more people, the more pathogens, and the more medical researchers, and the faster the arms race evolves.

      Don't get me wrong, we should do what we can, but it's wrong to assume drug-resistant pathogens are "caused by" antibiotic misuse. It's one contributor to the problem.

    32. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, death is certainly one alternative...

    33. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      WTH? If the drug kills people then it's not an antibiotic, it's just a poison.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    34. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      He's an antipseudodisestablishmentarian, give him a break.

    35. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by tb()ne · · Score: 1

      Well stated. I'd mod you up if I hadn't already posted (and you weren't AC). I wasn't arguing for or against antibiotics - just addressing the red herring in the parent post.

    36. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      What I don't understand is why antibiotics can't be rotated in and out of use. If these bugs adapt in so few generations and have generations so quickly I'd think they'd lose adaptations for immunities that haven't been needed as quickly as they develop new ones.

      So why can't we just put penicillin on the shelf for 20 years, use amoxicillian, and then some others and by the time we go through the list penicillin would be highly effective again?

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    37. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by localman57 · · Score: 5, Funny

      And how do you plan to crucify the patients who do not take the full course of antibiotics they are prescribed?

      I assume he plans to use nails. Is that how pretty much everybody does it?

    38. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Charliemopps · · Score: 0, Troll

      I know a LOT of people that totally oppose the use of anti-biotics. Some appose the use of all drugs. Some think Tea tree oil will cure everything and anything made by a pharma company is inherently evil. Some think God doesn't want people using drugs. And then you've got your Darwinists that think drugs have stopped the progress of evolution and think the fit should survive and if you can't develop immunity you just suck it up and die. Their all nut-balls, but they exist in vast quantities.

      There are literally Millions of people in this country who want antibiotics totally banned. You need to get out more.

    39. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Except those people aren't opposed to using antibiotics in cases of bacterial infection that warrants it, they're opposed to giving it to live stock just for the hell of it or giving it to people that likely have a viral infection.

      Nobody's anti-antibiotics even if some of us think that we need to progress beyond them to using something a little bit longer term like phages.

    40. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by hedwards · · Score: 1

      This, I thought most of the antibiotic resistant TB was the result of people starting the prescribed antibiotics and not continuing through to the end. Leaving them with mostly just the resistant bacteria and having to start over again.

    41. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Why is it tyrannical to require doctors to practice medicine properly to retain their licenses?

      If you fail to drive properly you will lose that license. This is what licenses are for, to restrict a set of activities to those who are qualified and do them properly.

    42. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2

      Antibiotics are poisons. They just target a set of biochemical pathways that humans don't care too much about.

      --
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    43. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2

      Linezolid is a oxazolidinone antibiotic, they've been in use since the 1950s.

      Daptomycin is over 30 years old, but didn't get FDA approval until 2003 due to high incidence of bad side effects (which is why Lilly stopped development during Phase II trials, then sold the rights to Cubist).

      I think the point of the OP was that novel methods of attack against bacterial infectious agents aren't being developed... and it's novel methods we need, as resistance generally develops against entire classes of antibiotics.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    44. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We treat with "poison" all the time. See radiation therapy as an example. The end result is a treatment that is far from pretty as increasing effectiveness also means being closer to death.

    45. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by brainzach · · Score: 2

      Overusing antibiotics isn't a big problem if you take them properly.

      Problems arise when people use them for legitimate reasons, but don't follow your full course of treatment.

      It happens in the US, but it is a much greater problem in developing countries where people lack education and money to follow what the doctor prescribed. Why would they want to waste money taking pills once they feel better.

    46. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by tgibbs · · Score: 2, Informative

      Antibiotic rotation is an idea that sounds good but that doesn't seem to work well in practice. What seems to happen is that microorganisms evolve in such a way as to neutralize the cost of being resistant. Usually, the initial mutation reduces fitness in the absence of the antibiotic, but then there is selective pressure to accumulate compensatory mutations that eliminate that cost. Once that happens, there is no longer selective pressure to revert to sensitivity even if the use of that antibiotic is discontinued. Moreover, with the compensatory mutations in place, it is possible that reversion of the original resistance mutation may reduce fitness. In this case, resistance becomes "locked in," and reversion is unlikely to happen even over an extended period of non-use of the antibiotic.

    47. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by localman57 · · Score: 1

      It can be both. That depends a lot on the dose. In small, well controlled doses, Warfarin (Coumadin) is an anti-coagulant used in people with blood clots. In large doses it is, quite literally, rat poision. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin

    48. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by dow · · Score: 1

      I've had chest infections in the past, and the doctor has told me it's viral, and then that he's going to prescribe me some antibiotics. Wait... what? "It won't cure it, but it might help you get over it" or something along those lines was his attitude.

      So after getting prescribed antibiotics a few times for various things, I then developed an allergy to penicillin and my face went numb and my lip welled up during a course of treatment. Well, that's just great that is. Now I am screwed should I ever catch a real disease and need such things, although as I'm a dairy farmer my immune system is pretty good comparably.

      I think I'm allergic to something else too which I haven't figured out yet, just my lip goes a little numb from time to time. Maybe just the traces of anti-biotics in my day to day diet...

    49. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by tibit · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and sometimes this outcolonization of bad bugs can be very important. To my wife, amoxicillin is lethal in 7 days it'd seem, and that's not due to any oversensitivity or allergy. She get's a raging c-diff infection in her gut within days after starting on amoxicillin. So far it seems 100% reproducible, and obviously we won't try no more.

      --
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    50. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Please go get selected against.

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    51. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by tibit · · Score: 1

      Why is it tyrannical to require doctors to practice medicine properly to retain their licenses?

      Because practicing medicine involves patients following directions, too, you know. In case of following treatment prescriptions, patients are as much to blame as anyone.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    52. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by na1led · · Score: 1

      Not when the needs of the many are numbered in the Billions , like 7 Billion and counting. Too many people causing too many problems. Some people need to stop having so many kids, like people in poor countries whos kids die before the age of 2.

      --
      -- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
    53. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by SydShamino · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I was attacked in mid-December by a cat, which bit my left hand harder than I knew cats could - twice. (It was an indoor feral cat we care for, and we were moving, and I had to get him in a cage. And yes, eventually we both calmed down and got him moved.)

      Initially my hand swelled to twice its normal size, and then the wounds started to fester. This was within a day. Fortunately I went to the doctor the morning after it occurred, and by the time the wounds were filling with pus I was already ramping up 10 days of antibiotics. The infection was gone within three days (but of course I dutifully took the entire 10 day regimen). My hand still hurt a little but it's usable.

      In retrospect, I've been thinking that just 100 years ago I very well could have either lost my hand or died. Now my biggest concern was a few weeks of pain and inability to use my hand, and maybe one or two small scars.

      I am very grateful for the discovery and medical application of antibiotics, and I very much support restrictions with antibiotics to cases where they are mandatory. Doctors and patients abuse painkillers, so we restrict access to them and control their use closely so as to prevent the patients from hurting themselves. Doctors and patients abuse antibiotics, so why don't we restrict access to them and control their use closely so as to prevent patients from hurting all of humanity?

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    54. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Darwinists" what sort of crazy guys are these? I know lots of people who think evolution happens but no one I know who does conceders it moral . It is a process that happens unless we prevent it, not in any way something that is right (quite the opposite usually). People who actually believed this would be in the same class as "Newtonists" going out to blow up buildings for defying gravity, when in fact many of the people who know these laws are architects, building things which go against gravity by understanding it just as we go against evolution with medicine.

    55. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      I very much doubt that there are "literally Millions" who fall into the extreme camps you describe.

      Regardless, those who totally reject the use of antibiotics don't bother me that much, because infections they acquire will merely kill them. Those who overuse antibiotics are far, far worse, because the infections that manage to kill them will likely kill many others as well.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    56. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Random guess? Many of the more advanced antibiotics in use today are variants of earlier antibiotics. They're just tweaked versions, to get around the latest adaptation of bacteria. So, adaptation to a more advanced antibiotic confers immunity to the bacteria for both the advanced antibiotic and its predecessor. It's an evolutionary arms-race, in which the only way to 'win' is to find an adaptation that doesn't let bacteria grow on or in human beings. Good luck with that.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    57. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Not *totally* drug resistant. We just haven't found a drug to fight it."

      Huh? That is like saying "We'll eventually find a weapon that can kill the giant monster attacking us so don't worry about it in the meantime."

    58. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How badly do you want to live.

      Chemo therapy is literally defined as a genetic mutagen. It literally accelerates your rate of genetic mutation.

      The thought is cancer cells replicate faster and will accumulate more of the mutagen (because of dna synthesis) and will have more mutation events (which is 1 event for every say 10,000 times the DNA unzips for replication or RNA production.)

      Its Ironic a drug that helps cure cancer....actually increases your odds of getting another cancer.

    59. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by RCGodward · · Score: 1

      ... and then their are people that don't know there theirs, and who want to ban they're way to not looking silly...

    60. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2

      I'm not a doctor but my family practice guy explained it to me like this: That viral infection can make you much more susceptible to opportunistic bacterial infections. Depending on your health history, it might be reasonable and appropriate to start preventative antibiotics to ward off a likely, harder-to-fight illness.

      --
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    61. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All viruses are drug-resistant, the conversation is about bacteria.

      Not true.

      Antibiotics do not kill viruses, but there are plenty of antiviral drugs, and viruses can get resistant to them through mutations.

      Ever heard of Tamiflu?

    62. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a cat, which bit my left hand harder than I knew cats could

      You didn't realize that a carnivore could bite completely through your hand? A carnivore with needle-like teeth???

    63. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

      One of the biggest problems is that people start the "Latent TB" regimen, but not finish it.

      It is like 6 to 9 months of a pill every day, is pretty hard on your body (especially the liver), and if you stop before it is over, you are pretty much screwed.

      I know the girls out there taking their birth control every day probably don't think it is a big deal... but a pill EVERY day? Guys don't usually have that kind of discipline.

    64. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Err, overuse is a problem. Every time you use antibiotics, there is a chance you will select for a mutation in the bacteria that will make it resistant or immune. That is *every time*.

      The idea to use full course of treatment is to lower the likelihood of this.

      The big problem is with farm use of antibiotics. That is the main problem, right there. People not taking antibiotics property is the second problem (especially for diseases like TB, that require up to a year treatment, can recur anyway and the antibiotics can have severe side effects). The 3rd problem is over prescription.

    65. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But if the professional judgment of the qualified practitioner licensed to prescribe is that antibiotics are contraidicated, there should be consequences for giving in to the patient anyway.

    66. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by wolfsdaughter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I definitely agree that we should do massive researching into phages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriophage

      problem is that big pharma won't do much with phages because they're naturally occurring which i think means no patents - so as soon as one has FDA approval, anyone can produce it,

      I wish the government should give out grants to research phages - but big pharma would cry "unfair"

      --
      "Are they made from real Girl Scouts?" ~Wednesday Addams
    67. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Mitreya · · Score: 1
      I think you forgot #3!

      3) Prescribing antibiotics when they are not necessary. Perhaps that files into ignorance in #1 (doctors overusing it or patients demanding it)

    68. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by tsotha · · Score: 1

      Nah, that was a one-off. The normal way is rope.

    69. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bacteria in general seem to either gain enzymes that break the drug down, or adaptations that either prevent the antibiotic form being absorbed, enhanced processes to actively expel the antibiotic, or novel mechanisms that bypass the path that the antibiotic tries to interrupt. And they communicate these genetic changes to each other via plasmids.

      While phages are cool, there is also a risk that they can mutate and attack other bacteria or cells as well...

    70. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by jimmerz28 · · Score: 1

      Is that because all the pharmaceutical companies are using Waterfall instead of Agile/Scrum?

      I'd be curious how their development works because it's probably 20 years outdated as well.

    71. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by tsotha · · Score: 1

      Well... yes, of course. They're not charities. Why would you expect them to behave like charities?

    72. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Anything that kills bacteria is an antibiotic. If it kills people too, it's also a poison, and thus not a very useful antibiotic, but it's still an antibiotic.

    73. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by jd · · Score: 1

      Antivirals now exist, although there was a fad in over-using them so those that have been developed are now mostly useless. However, yes, the conversation is about bacteria.

      --
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    74. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by skydyr · · Score: 1

      The failure rate for oral birth control tells us that many girls don't either.

    75. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by DriedClexler · · Score: 2

      There's no such thing as an anti-antibiotics bandwagon. Does not exist.

      Sure there is. You've never heard of probiotics?

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    76. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by jd · · Score: 1

      I'd argue that universal education would reduce antibiotic misuse (and thus slow bacterial evolution a bit) and that universal healthcare would allow doctors to detect new strains at the time of emergence rather than after a large reservoir had built up in the population (which means a much shorter time between a new strain emerging and the treatment being adapted accordingly).

      It would not halt the evolution of pathogens. You don't even really want to do that. But it would allow you to have a sustainable dynamic equilibrium that caused the least harm to humans.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    77. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by jd · · Score: 1

      If it does the job...

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    78. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem seems more difficult than stated.

      1 - Has any antibiotic been developed based off of an organism's DNA sequence?
      2 - Divining the resistance mechanisms may be more difficult than imagined. Pan-resistant acinetobacter has been around for some time and we still haven't any clues for it. Acinetobacter's gram-negative whereas this is a slow-growing (and therefore low metabolism) acid fast bacteria.
      3 - Phage therapy seems to have inherent problems. Our innate immune system will likely recognize phages for destruction and our adaptive immune system may target the phage as well. This would render follow on treatment ineffective. In addition, phage therapy will also run into resistance issues just like the use of antimicrobials.

    79. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by brainzach · · Score: 1

      No defending farm usage, but there hasn't been any major outbreaks from antibiotic resistance bacteria from farm animals to humans yet.

      There are problems with the American medical system in its antibiotic usage with people, but it is minor compared to what goes on in the rest of the world. At least people here halfway take it seriously. Other places in the world pop pills like candy then stop taking the medicine once they feel better, which creates perfect breeding grounds for resistance. It is no surprise that drug resistant infections are most common in places like Africa, India and Russia.

    80. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Translation+Error · · Score: 1

      Doctors and patients abuse painkillers, so we restrict access to them and control their use closely so as to prevent the patients from hurting themselves. Doctors and patients abuse antibiotics, so why don't we restrict access to them and control their use closely so as to prevent patients from hurting all of humanity?

      Because threatening humanity by misuse of antibiotics doesn't get anyone high.

      --
      When someone says, "Any fool can see ..." they're usually exactly right.
    81. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      As others have posted, the problem isn't even overuse... overuse would just end up with people defenceless against bad bacteria, as they will have killed off the good bacteria that were previously protecting them.

      The problem is misuse... specifically, not taking enough antibiotics to fully kill off the bacteria you are targeting. This results in the survival of resistant bacteria, against which the antibiotics eventually become useless.

      All of this raises a question: instead of using the equivalent of chemotherapy for bacteria, why hasn't someone attempted to breed a bacteria that either feeds on tuberculosis bacteria, or provides an autodefence against them? This should work much better than antibiotics, especially if you create the bacteria with a few limitations, such as a kill switch and a generational limiter.

    82. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      WTH? If the drug kills people then it's not an antibiotic, it's just a poison.

      The difference between most drugs and poisons comes down to dosage.

    83. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are literally Millions of people in this country who want antibiotics totally banned.

      Prove it, or admit that you're making things up. Those are your only possible choices.

    84. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      If you fail to drive properly you will lose that license.

      Nah usually you are allowed a few mistakes (call it points). "Errare humanum est", and all that.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    85. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by compro01 · · Score: 2

      I've had chest infections in the past, and the doctor has told me it's viral, and then that he's going to prescribe me some antibiotics. Wait... what? "It won't cure it, but it might help you get over it" or something along those lines was his attitude.

      That's prophylactic treatment to prevent opportunistic infections.

      Now I am screwed should I ever catch a real disease and need such things, although as I'm a dairy farmer my immune system is pretty good comparably.

      Penicillin is hardly the only available antibiotic. It's not even used all that much due to many people being allergic to it and there being more effective antibiotics of that class available.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    86. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      The difference between anything and poison comes down to dosage, including water. That is not a useful point. The real distinction is that useful drugs have a dosage where they are effective without being poisonous.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    87. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by ChumpusRex2003 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Some of it is. TB requires prolonged treatment. 3 months is regarded as the absolute minimum treatment duration. 6 months is suitable for most cases. 12-24 months is needed for severe cases, or for cases affecting certain organs (brain or spine). Anti-TB antibiotics also have severe side effects - liver damage, nerve damage, permanent eye damage, they severely disrupt the biochemistry of other drugs (potentially causing them to become ineffective, or overactive), etc.

      In poorer countries, patients/doctors may not be able to afford a full course of drugs, and may therefore cut it short. Uneducated patients may also stop the treatment when they start to feel better, and not carry the course through to the end (and in poorer countries, there may not be a system for doctors/law enformcenet to trace them and bring them back for treatment).

      Additionally, tests for TB have are very time-consuming and expensive. It can take 8 weeks to get a drug-sensitivity test, and that's if the test comes back positive anyway (one of the problems with TB, is that it is very good at hiding, and the bugs are very difficult to grow). Where funding is constrained, diagnosis is simply by looking for the bugs in a sputum specimen with a microscope - which tells you nothing about the sensitivities. There is a signficant cost of incubating the specimens on special growth media for 8 weeks, and a low success rate. Because of this, doctors in these countries may not be able to diagnose drug resistance, except when drugs fail to halt the disease after 6 months.

      The avoidance of resistance in anti-biotic treatment is best achieved by mixing multiple drugs of different types. Conventionally TB is treated with a cocktail of 3 or 4 drugs. If, however, you use those 3 drugs, ih a population that is infected with a bug that is resistant to 2 of them, then resistance to the single functioning agent, can develop very rapidly.

      Things are changing with advanced test kits and DNA amplification technology, which are able to detect the genes that confer resistance, and give a result, with high accuracy and high reliability within 24 hours. The problem is the significant cost of this testing technique.

       

    88. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      If they target biochemical that aren't critical to humans then they aren't poisons in any relevant way. Obviously they are poisonous to the bacteria they target, that's the whole point!

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    89. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by compro01 · · Score: 1

      It's also possible that a combination of existing drugs will kill it.

      That's the current treatment method for extensively drug resistant TB (XDR-TB). You saturation bomb it continuously with 5 different antibiotics for over 2 years.

      Totally drug resistant TB is when that fails to do the job.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    90. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Every single antibiotic is a form of poison. They are designed to poison the target bacteria. Good antibiotics are ones that are poisonous to target bacterial cells, but not to human cells. These are rare - most are usually at least lightly poisonous to some human cells (typically liver and kidney cells are most impacted, as they are the ones that metabolize poisons out of human body). Most antibiotics are poisonous to some human cells as well, but not poisonous enough to cause permanent harm. This is why doctors advise against strenuous activity when on antibiotics. Such activity increases metabolism, which in turn increases the effect of the mild poison on human liver and kidney cells which will metabolize the poison (antibiotic) out.

      "Antibiotic immunity" means that bacteria evolves to become immune or highly resistant to poisonous effect of antibiotic. That forces us to use antibiotics that are progressively more harmful to human cells so that they stay poisonous enough to impact the target bacteria. Eventually we run out of options on antibiotics that are acceptably poisonous to human kidney and liver cells, and move to level where they become lethal to these organs as a whole. In other words, some of the modern "last line" antibiotics designed to fight antibiotic-resistant bacteria are lethal to humans if taken for a reasonable amount of time (in some cases, this takes less then a week).

      In a nutshell: antibiotic is a poison that (preferably) targets biochemical pathways that are not as important to human cells as they are to target bacterial/microbial cells. The so called "last line" antibiotics sacrifice the relative harmlessness to human cells to remain poisonous to target bacteria that has evolved immunity or high levels of resistance to other poisons (antibiotics). In fact, the very name tells you that it's poison: "anti biotic". It's just aimed to be chiefly poisonous to microbes instead of large organisms such as humans.

    91. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      1. I never said it was easy.
      2. This is Slashdot not a medical journal.
      Actually if I made these sound trivial it was not my goal. The ability to sequence anything is still new. Hopefully at some point we can sequence a bacteria and simulate it well enough that we can understand how to defeat it.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    92. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haven't seen a comment yet that has addressed the elephant in the room: HIV/AIDS.

      There's a virus that definitely makes you more susceptible to opportunistic infections. Prophylactic use of antibiotics is sometimes necessary for those suffering from severe AIDS. Indeed, AIDS isn't death like it was twenty years ago, but it would still be if we didn't employ antibiotics aggressively when needed (don't be silly, yes, I do know that antibiotics aren't ARV therapy).

      Other people suffer from debilitated immune systems, notably, cancer patients, those on treatment for Lupus or RA and many other auto-immune disorders whether chronic or not.

      And who do you suppose has to spend an inordinate amount of time in a hospital / clinic? Where do you suppose those frightening MRSA outbreaks occur? Those with weak immune systems are obviously at heightened risk from exposure to these "super bugs", yes, but they aren't the major contributors to the "super bug's" existence. Talk about life just not being fair...

      Heheheh, our Martian Defense Strategy seems to be working just fine to defend Earth from Terrestrials as well. I think it's high time we took steps to educate the public about specifics of antibiotic functionality, hygiene and other basics of modern medicine.

      I mean, for christ sake, if you've got an auto-immune disorder these days, thank god we've got drugs for many of them these days, but it's enough to prevent you from touching a door handle or flipping a light switch. God help you if you have to use a public computer in a school lab.

    93. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Problem is, they also kill the host when host is human, typically by destroying kidneys or liver.

      I'm curious about whether anyone has tried "shutting down" the affected organs temporarily, to circumvent the hazards of the antibiotic (with appropriate measures like dialysis to filter out metabolic wastes and eventually the toxic antibiotic itself).

    94. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by geekoid · · Score: 2

      Classic examples of conflating correlation with causation with a dash or ignorance.

      A) When you get sick, it opens other ways for you to get sicker. Like increased susceptibility to bacterial infection. You had a chest infect, the chance of you getting pneumonia became much higher.

      B) You might want to get your nerves and heart tested, preferably a stress test. the numbness is not from antibiotics.

      Most likely it's normal result form certain physical activity, but now that you are looking for hits to confirm your bias, you notice it more.

      And no, you are NOT AN EXCEPTION TO SUCH A BIAS.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    95. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by hey! · · Score: 1

      if we didn't use antibiotics, then the simplest infection would be "Totally Drug-Resistant".

      While I agree with your overall point, this particular argument doesn't hold. You could still treat TB with drugs which strengthen and stimulate the immune system. Before the development of streptomycin strengthening the immune system through rest (sometimes deliberately collapsing one of the patient's lungs). Also, it is conceivable that effective therapeutic vaccines could be developed.

      In any case most "anti-antibiotic" people aren't against anti-biotics per se, but treatment regimens that make improper use of antibiotics, e.g., using antibiotics for prophylaxis, or when a course of treatment is too short. The chief concern is maintaining the effectiveness of antibiotics. A secondary argument against the routine, non-therapeutic use of antibiotics in meat production is that it is a poor or inhumane substitute for proper husbandry.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    96. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by geekoid · · Score: 2

      " we won't try no more."
      really?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    97. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by geekoid · · Score: 1

      your Darwinists that think drugs have stopped the progress of evolution and think the fit should survive and if you can't develop immunity you just suck it up and die.

      those aren't Darminists, they're idiots.
      And 'Darwinist' makes as much sense as calling people you believe gravity theory Newtonists.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    98. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Nope, he is correct. about 5% or so. It varies depending which scare story is in the news.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    99. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by robotkid · · Score: 1

      What I don't understand is why antibiotics can't be rotated in and out of use. If these bugs adapt in so few generations and have generations so quickly I'd think they'd lose adaptations for immunities that haven't been needed as quickly as they develop new ones.

      So why can't we just put penicillin on the shelf for 20 years, use amoxicillian, and then some others and by the time we go through the list penicillin would be highly effective again?

      This is a great question, actually. It would totally work if acquiring resistance relied on a really rare event and had a large cost (decreased growth rate or reproduction rate, etc) associated with maintaining it when it is not needed, which is very much the case with herbicides and pesticides. DDT, for example, works really, really well against mosquitoes now that we've stopped using it out of environmental concerns for decades. The issue here is that most bacteria have what's known as horizontal gene transfer, that is they can spontaneously acquire new genes on plasmids (think of them as firmware updates) from their brethren on a pretty much continual basis. So even if you wait a long time so that resistance has become very rare in the population, it'll never be completely gone, and the moment you reintroduce it the bacteria will start re-sharing it faster than you can torrent Crysis 5 (or whatever version they are up to now) from the Pirate Bay.

      Horizontal gene transfer is why there's no way we can ever come up with new antibiotics faster than the bacteria can become resistant. The only hope I see on the horizon is to use viruses that specialize in targeting bacteria so that the cure can counter-evolve it's own adaptations. Yes, I do realize this sounds like a setup to a new Resident Evil movie. But it's been used extensively in former Soviet republics where they couldn't afford antibiotics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy

    100. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by jamesh · · Score: 1

      WTH? If the drug kills people then it's not an antibiotic, it's just a poison.

      Some of our best medicines are poisons, including to the host. You just have to balance the dose so that it kills the pathogen without quite killing the host. A lot of anti-fungal medications are highly toxic to various organs in the body. And chemotherapy revolves around the idea that the cancer cells are more susceptible to the poison than the rest of the body.

    101. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Add a dye to the drug that has a cumulative quality. Have the patient submit a UA at the end of the course. If they didn't take it correctly they are flagged in a national fuckwit list and pay a massive premium on future antibiotics prescriptions.

    102. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      But...but they're so cuddly.

    103. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      They're not poisons! They're poisons! Can't you tell the difference?

      (I feel a Monty Python skit coming on from all the derp in this thread)

    104. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Geekoid, calling someone else out for their grammatical errors is often considered poor form. In your case however it is pure hypocrisy.

    105. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This crap will make a bee-line to places like Edison, New Jersey. The H1B visa holders will be dropping like flies. The corporate lobbyists will pressure Congress to open the floodgates, public health be DAMNED! Big Pharma on US 1 will see big $$$ in their eyes. Corporate America cannot lose that debt-free college degree slave labor force. Hiring Whities will cause WAGE INFLATION Aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! Home-owner wages Aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! Real economic recovery Aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

      ==//==

    106. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by baegucb · · Score: 2

      As someone has been treated for TB, I can comment on that. King county in Washington state Public Health department had to witness me take a dozen or so antibiotic pills a day for a year. They even showed up once at work and pulled me out of a meeting. Beats coughing up blood though, even if the nausea was tough. They never figured out how a single (at the time) office worker got infected.

    107. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These are not Darwinists, they are called CRIMINALS.

    108. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by dow · · Score: 1

      A) When you get sick, it opens other ways for you to get sicker. Like increased susceptibility to bacterial infection. You had a chest infect, the chance of you getting pneumonia became much higher.

      Cheers, and others. Seems I had the wrong idea about this.

      B) You might want to get your nerves and heart tested, preferably a stress test. the numbness is not from antibiotics.

      Most likely it's normal result form certain physical activity, but now that you are looking for hits to confirm your bias, you notice it more.

      And no, you are NOT AN EXCEPTION TO SUCH A BIAS.

      And now you are just trying to scare me I think. My heart is fine... I smoke a few cigars a day, have a beer or a cider, maybe once every 6 months or so indulge in something a little stronger. I stop smoking for a few months now and again and get quite fit before I go on my winter holiday snowboarding, but my job is fairly demanding and... say, would the occasional dizzy spell, light head as I stand up have anything to do with this? I'm only 30...

    109. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, there's a whole buttload of 'em - off the top of my head: rifabutin, linezolid, kanamycin, amikacin, capreomycin, cycloserine, ethionamide, prothionamide, ethambutol, pyrazinamide, para-aminosalycylic acid, streptomycin, clofazimine and rifapentene.

      Of course, of those, only rifabutin and linezolid are anything resembling new, and both are generally too expensive for use in third-world countries. Also, linezolid isn't terribly effective for TB (it was developed for resistant staph and similar), it's mostly useful as an adjunct to the aminoglycosides and something like ethionaminde. But, your point still stands - there's not much profit to be had in it, and the current drugs outside the first-line basically suck. In particular, PAS and the thionamides tend to be so emetogenic that patients actively avoid taking them (because, you know, who wants to vomit all day for months on end?)

    110. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      going ahead...
      The main problem is routine use of antibiotics in animal feed to get animals to grow faster. I don't think you'll find many people against all use of antibiotics. The anti-antibiotics bandwagon is mostly about this misuse, and also about idiots demanding antibiotics for viral infections.

    111. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by prashc · · Score: 1

      Well here we go. An obituary- On the Death of antibiotics! http://www.japi.org/march_2010/article_01.html (Association of Physicians of India) "Indian medical community has to be ashamed of the NDM-1 (“New Delhi Metallo-1”) gene. Even though we have not contributed to carbopenem development, we have contributed a resistance gene with a glamorous name. The overuse of antibiotics is embedded in our Indian gene. It is an Indian tradition. Why should we Indians worry? We can always depend on honey, yoghurt and cow’s urine. At any rate within a few years,- these products may be more useful than antibiotics!"

    112. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find deck screws and a power drill motor much superior to waiting for a centurian to come around with his big mallet

    113. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      I like your detailed plan to educate and give adequate health care to every human being on earth.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    114. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Nobody is a really big term.
      Natural selection has nothing to do with wealth.

      How exactly is universal healthcare practical?

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    115. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by bluemonq · · Score: 1

      "Overuse"? Preventative? Pray tell, what is the preventative function of taking antibiotics -- which kill bacteria -- to treat a cold, which is caused by viruses?

    116. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > 1. We should sequence those strains and see if we can identify any weakness to exploit.

      When was the last time sequencing helped us find better medicines?

      Well, perhaps there might be one or two examples.

      As a biologist, I lament the fact that piles of money have been put in mindless (often bad-quality) sequencing. That does not actually tell you anything about organism function. I am sure some of it will pay off in the future, but I also think that that does not compare to the investment we made it. It's purely hype driven.

    117. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If an organism exists, it exists in its form because that's the way God created it.

      Yours, the United States of Moronica.

    118. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course the solution to that what is the same-fucking-thing. This isn't even about the needs of the few or the many, it would be done out of self-interest if we were actually rational (instead of aproximating it for certain situations). It's that or genocide. And the later is not going to work, we aproximate rationality enough to resist it.

    119. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please go back to college (I would say medical school, but you won't get in) before commenting on this thread again.

    120. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sequencing is done for phylogenetics and crap like that. One of my professors got 3 papers just by running a sequence through a comparison program and saying that some rabbit a million years ago had the same virus as a cow today or something like that. (That was in pre-med, so I didn't really give a shit.)

    121. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is. I have seen a public announcement ad against overuse of antibiotics in Malaysia while being on vacation in there. The overuse of antibiotics is common in Asia, becasue they can not afford to take long breaks from work. Wages are too low in there.

    122. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by tibit · · Score: 1

      I don't even think it's reasonable to still consider it an error. It's slang for sure, but I believe I have used it correctly, and consciously, too.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    123. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is wrong. There are herbals that can fight infection without being anti-biotic in the sense that the drug kills everything in a particular spectrum of life. Many of those herbals were the source for the original anti-biotics used (or over-used) in modern medicine. The herbal, however, was not concentrated, purified and made with non-biotic source materials. In other words, there are some natural anti-infection agents that are all natural, but they are consistently overlooked.
      Now, can these herbals affect this new TB. Probably not. We have f*cked the pooch so bad at this point that we are going to suffer some nasties. If you are surprised, perhaps you should have thought about what has been going on the last 50 years as pharma-created antibiotics have rapidly been beaten down by evolving bacteria and viral infective agents. Obviously we were going to lose in the end, anyone who looked at it could see it. We are in serious trouble and there is damn little being done to face the problem.
      Recently DARPA became intrested in the problem and is proposing some new approaches to solve this problem, but realistically it won't work. The simple fact is that the pharma corps can't change, they are the only "people" with the resources to do the thinking needed and they just don't know how to activate themselves to do it

    124. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Qwade79 · · Score: 1
      Heya, not trying to scare you either but passing on some info which might be pertinent.

      Numb lips could be an indicator that the nerves under/near your wisdom teeth are possibly getting pinched on occasion (as the teeth move/shift) leading to the symptoms described. Dizzy spell/s when standing up sound like it could be related if the wisdom teeth are impacted or at an odd angle putting pressure on the region near your inner ear. Google for info on Inferior alveolar nerve or Mandibular Nerves and maybe get an xray with a dentist to see how the wisdom teeth are placed.

      One of the first links I found that is fairly useful:
      http://www.doctorspiller.com/Mandibular_Nerves.htm

      I only know a bit about it since I've been avoiding getting my last two (impacted) wisdom teeth removed.

    125. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by Sedated2000 · · Score: 1

      Antibiotics are not the only problem we have of being over perscribed. Does anyone else find it weird that different medication is advertised on television directly to people?

      Perhaps in some cases it helps for people to be "educated" on what's there but isn't that what we visit doctors for? I can't count how many times I've had relatives tell stories about badgering doctors for certain drugs they see on TV because they think they know better than the doctor about what they need.

    126. Re:Not *totally* drug resistant by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      But with centuries of selective breeding that I thought had weakened their jaws...

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  2. Mother earth is fighting back. by Adult+film+producer · · Score: 0

    And its about time she exacted her vengeance upon us. We live in exciting times! Enjoy them while you are still alive

    1. Re:Mother earth is fighting back. by MagikSlinger · · Score: 2
      [Channeling Jeff Goldblum]

      "No, I'm, I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way. "

      --
      The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
    2. Re:Mother earth is fighting back. by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 2

      Sorry, but your eugenics program will have to wait for another day. Drug-resistant TB is everywhere.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    3. Re:Mother earth is fighting back. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If something like this hit inner city ghettos we might even revitalize our cities again!

      I am sure the CIA is working around the clock on this very thing.

    4. Re:Mother earth is fighting back. by erroneus · · Score: 1

      That line of thinking is what some believe led to the creation of AIDS and its multi-targeted appearance around the globe.

  3. Cough... by wbr1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And yet the food industry and the pharmaceutical industry would have us believe that the overuse of antibiotics is harmless ...cough.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:Cough... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      that small cough doesn't sound so good. Take all these antibiotics

    2. Re:Cough... by stanlyb · · Score: 1

      Did you spill blood? Then don't take any antibiotics, write your will, and do finish this bucket list....

    3. Re:Cough... by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 0

      Except that's not the problem here. No new drugs have been developed for TB. The same antibiotics have been used for 50 years, which "probably contributed to the emergence of strains that are unresponsive to treatment."

    4. Re:Cough... by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Debatable. From what I've read, regular soil has naturally occurring strains of drug-resistant TB growing in it. *shrugs*

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    5. Re:Cough... by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      But think about all the poor cows that'll be sick without antibiotics in their feed! Do you have no heart for animals?

    6. Re:Cough... by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      You could also look at it another way... after 50 years of treatment, the only variants of TB that are doing well are the ones that are resistant to the treatment. Standard natural selection.

      Of course, this is invalidated by the fact that TB is now more common than it was 20 years ago....

  4. This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" joke. by Iamthecheese · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only silver lining is that it's not even more deadly. At least we can learn about the effectiveness of quarantine methods in the modern era before something even more deadly shows up. Also each evolution that allows a bacteria to become resistant to a drug weakens the bacteria in all other cases.

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
  5. Watch out Indonesia by Toe,+The · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Isn't the real story that it's in three countries, and that they are geographically disparate?

    Or... does the disease only affect countries that start with the letter I?

    1. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nah, it happens all over the place, including in countries that start with "Russia". The antibiotic-resistant TB there is just not quite as bad. Unfortunately, it lives in the prison system.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    2. Re:Watch out Indonesia by erroneus · · Score: 1

      That just means the U.S. of A. is safe from this disease because none of the letters are "I."

    3. Re:Watch out Indonesia by stanlyb · · Score: 1

      It is becoming common problem in EU too. Maybe not totally resistant TB, but very hard to cure. What amazes me, is that in North America the TB vaccine is not standard (read my leaps: FREE), and the result is that when (not if) some american catches TB, he will be helpless.

    4. Re:Watch out Indonesia by ATestR · · Score: 5, Informative

      STANDARD != FREE. Where I live, TB vaccinations are required for kids entering school. This is STANDARD. FREE is when you get somebody else to pay for it. Admittedly most of us have insurance to pay for it. Those without generally get the vaccinations for free anyway.

      --
      âoeAny society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    5. Re:Watch out Indonesia by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is becoming common problem in EU too. Maybe not totally resistant TB, but very hard to cure. What amazes me, is that in North America the TB vaccine is not standard (read my leaps: FREE), and the result is that when (not if) some american catches TB, he will be helpless.

      There is no good tuberculosis vaccine. There is the BCG vaccine which confers some measure of immunity, but it's not very impressive. The problem with BCG is that is screws up SCREENING for TB via the PPD (skin prick test). Once you've had a BCG vaccination, you are going to test positive for TB in that screen, so you have to go to expensive and slightly dangerous X rays to determine active disease and you're pretty much hosed at determining 'latent' disease (where someone has been exposed, has the bug stuck deep inside their lungs but the critter hasn't multiplied - yet - in a couple of percentage points of people with latent TB it will go active at some point in their life so they often get treated before it progresses).

      In countries where TB is epidemic, it often makes sense to use BCG. In the US and Western Europe, probably not but it's a complicated argument.

      We really need 1) better vaccines and 2) better ways of detecting early infections. It's not for want of trying, it's just a nasty little bug.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    6. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Surt · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      But if it's in the prison system killing prisoners, isn't that reducing the costs of those prisons? How is that unfortunate?

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    7. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or... does the disease only affect countries that start with the letter I?

      No, it comes from the iFanbois waiting in line to buy the iphone, ipad, and other iCrap.

      Blame Apple!

    8. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Is that you Miss Rand???

    9. Re:Watch out Indonesia by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

      Why unfortunately?
      It seems to me, if you had to have a incurable decease in your country you would want it to be quarantined, an to infect the people you like the least. A prison seems like the best place to have diseases, where else would you want it? In nurseries, in supermarkets?

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    10. Re:Watch out Indonesia by spacefight · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Where did you leave your humanity? At the gate, officer?

    11. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait until you have a sibling or parent in jail. Or are you just "too good" to find yourself affected by such circumstances? You're above it all, aren't you?

      Society is simply all too predictable isn't it? I hope you aren't illegally sharing files, or find your computer to be infected by malware that does it for you.

    12. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1, Troll

      I reserve my humanity for people who act humanely. Is that bad?

      On the other hand, not everyone in prison did something inhumane.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    13. Re:Watch out Indonesia by hedwards · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, because it ultimately means that you're no more humane than the prisoners are. When you start deciding that some people do and do not deserve to be treated humanely you open up the door for all sorts of inhuman behavior. Sure it's not a guarantee that one will turn into a genocidal mad man, but accepting the premise that some people don't deserve to be treated humanely makes it a significantly shorter trip.

    14. Re:Watch out Indonesia by hedwards · · Score: 1

      The problem is that prisoners get released or escape and they're typically packed in tightly enough that the disease can easily spread. If you're not really careful or quite lucky you end up in a situation where there are people who have done their time and can't be released because they're infected. Many of whom wouldn't have been infected if not for the conditions in the prison.

      If there's going to be an outbreak, I personally would rather it be somewhere that's actually set up to deal with such a thing or can be reconfigured to deal with it.

    15. Re:Watch out Indonesia by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Any vaccine will ruin a test for antibodies. What we need is a direct test for the bacteria.

    16. Re:Watch out Indonesia by DC2088 · · Score: 2

      "Of all the people to survive, he's not the one you would have chosen, is it? But if you could choose, Doctor, if you could decide who lives and who dies... that would make you a monster."

    17. Re:Watch out Indonesia by tibit · · Score: 1

      That's an oxymoronic way to apply humanity if there ever was any.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    18. Re:Watch out Indonesia by ae1294 · · Score: 1

      Any vaccine will ruin a test for antibodies. What we need is a direct test for the bacteria.

      It lives in the lungs... FOR GOD SAKES!

    19. Re:Watch out Indonesia by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      I reserve my humanity for people who act humanely. Is that bad?

      Inconveniently(but as is generally true with situations where a given disease has a popular association with some flavor of moral failing), infectious diseases are generally quite happy to fester among the undesirables and then start leaking into the general population by whatever intersections between us and them exist but are politely not thought about.

      Even if every inmate deserved it, anybody who would rather not have prison guards and their families, inmates released after comparatively short sentences, etc. continually bringing hardcore prison TB into the general population has a strong, pragmatic interest in making sure that they don't get it...

      Regardless of whether it is an ethical problem, allowing dangerous diseases to become endemic within some distasteful underclass is foolish(but an excellent way to learn more about how that underclass connects to society at large...)

    20. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Wrong answer to my post. People who talk like you end up giving more value to the criminals than to victims.I expect such from someone like you though to write a response like you did, and you fell for it.

      I would KILL, perhaps even in a painful and gruesome manner, someone raping my wife or daughters, which is NOT humane to them, but is humane to my wife or daughters. You are confusing not being humane with being inhuman. There is a distinct difference.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    21. Re:Watch out Indonesia by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Prisons also have staff, visitors, and(depending on the local jurisdiction's distinction between prison and jail, if any), suspects awaiting trial but not convicted of anything.

    22. Re:Watch out Indonesia by rednip · · Score: 1

      You're making the assumption that it's 'cheaper' for society when offenders die in a prison jail, I do not believe it to be true. Do you have any proof?

      --
      The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
    23. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Bob-taro · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the humane thing to do with this thread is let it die and get back on topic.

      --
      Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
    24. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Surt · · Score: 1

      I avoid the whole issue by never using a computer.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    25. Re:Watch out Indonesia by scot4875 · · Score: 0

      Yes yes, you're a big man and we all fear and respect you. Do you also concealed carry just in case those scary criminals jump you? Very, very brave.

      However, this is all completely offtopic. I've got modpoints, but I find that it's more fun to antagonize people displaying internet bravado.

      Also, the most likely person to rape your wife or daughters is yourself, a family member, or a friend. Someone mentioning criminals and you jumping straight to "rape" sounds like a case of projection -- maybe you should check yourself in to a psychiatric ward?

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    26. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you catch it too? It would reduce traffic by one car.

    27. Re:Watch out Indonesia by sonicmerlin · · Score: 2

      Insurance is the very definition of getting someone else to pay for you.

    28. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All in incredibly close proximity, on a regular basis, to Judges, Lawyers, etc.

    29. Re:Watch out Indonesia by level_headed_midwest · · Score: 1

      No, it increases the cost of prisons. The state has custody of the prisoner and thus is responsible for providing the prisoner's medical care. Prisoners with extremely difficult to kill diseases cost the state a lot of money because they not only have to treat the disease but tie up on officer or two 24/7 to supervise the prisoner in the hospital. The state would love it if the prisoners were perfectly healthy.

      --
      Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
    30. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Surt · · Score: 1

      http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenus/sections/crim_justice/6_cj_inmatecost.aspx?catid=3

      A significant portion of that cost is the medical average, which includes all the prisoners who are, in fact, dieing in jail. It clearly doesn't take long to make up the costs of a dead prisoner.

      Now if you want to have a discussion about whether it might just be cheaper, net, for society to set them free, I think that's a different topic. But comparing ongoing incarceration vs dead prisoner, I think dead prisoner will clearly come out much cheaper.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    31. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not quite. Insurance is socialized healthcare where a private entity scrapes profits off the healthcare fund. This form of socialism is okay in the US, because there is a private corporation profiting.

    32. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Surt · · Score: 1

      Prisons have enough sick prisoners to require a medical wing, it isn't 1 or 2: 1 guards to prisoners in the prison hospital, just as it isn't in the rest of the jail. Medical costs are already quite significant for prisons, a disease that kills them instead of just making them sick would definitely reduce long term costs.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    33. Re:Watch out Indonesia by jd · · Score: 2

      Supermarkets are probably a good place to have diseases. Much of the food is either tinned (so isolated from it) or will be washed, and in either case it will likely be cooked (killing most bacteria and deactivating most viruses). Meanwhile, most shoppers won't be exposed for any significant time, which means they stand a far better chance of building up resistance than to suffering any hardship. Ok, no place is "great" to have disease, but in terms of opportunities to strengthen health vs. impair it, I'd consider a supermarket to be as good as it's going to get.

      Prisons? Uh, no. First, this is an airborne disease. That means it won't stay in the prisons for very long. There's an incubation period, so when it does break out, it will be far beyond any human capacity to control long before you realize it has done so. And then there's the fact that diseases mutate. In a compressed population, where infection and reinfection are going to be frequent, you're talking about an ideal biological weapons factory. You won't just get one strain escaping, you might get hundreds - thousands for the largest prisons. Developing a vaccine for ONE disease is bad enough, slow enough and expensive enough. You start getting a few hundred strains, each needing its own unique vaccine, and you've something that is far beyond the capacity of any nation's finances to cope with even if it had the gurus necessary to develop that many vaccines.

      In fact, underclasses in general are the single-most dangerous vector for diseases of any kind. "Invisible" populations allow outbreaks to move rapidly, mutate rapidly and build up reservoirs which can survive for decades, sometimes centuries.

      As long as there are "undesirables" or "untouchables", you are guaranteed to have uncontrollable epidemics. Elimination of underclasses won't eliminate disease, but it WILL eliminate the places diseases can hide amongst humans, which means treatments have an opportunity to evolve as the disease evolves. You don't have to play a decade's worth of catch-up overnight. Diseases don't give a damn about your prejudices, they'll infect everyone equally. Prejudices only make it harder to stop them.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    34. Re:Watch out Indonesia by level_headed_midwest · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The BCG vaccine screws up using the skin test; your body has "seen" the TB antigen in the BCG vaccine and will react to the TB antigen in the skin test. It does NOT screw up the antibody test (Quantiferon), so people who received the BCG vaccine should get the antibody test instead of the skin test. Also, there is a direct test for M. tuberculosis bacteria- it's called a sputum culture. However you won't be able to grow any unless the patient has active TB as latent TB by definition has a negative culture. The skin test and Quantiferon test for latent TB, in the hopes that you catch latent TB, treat it, and kill it before it becomes active (and actively contagious) TB.

      --
      Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
    35. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fail to see where the problem is.

    36. Re:Watch out Indonesia by jd · · Score: 1

      There's two hidden "I"s, so it's here and invisibly spreading.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    37. Re:Watch out Indonesia by hedwards · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thank you for proving my point. It doesn't matter what somebody does, acting in an inhumane fashion is never OK. In that situation you yourself would end up in prison and would, by your logic, not be entitled to humane treatment.

      It doesn't matter how much value criminals put in their victims, unless you genuinely want to live in a society of sociopaths and psychopaths, treating everybody with humanity is really the only correct course of action.

      We have a government to handle such things precisely because most people aren't emotionally prepared to handle such things in an emotionally disinterested way and only seek justice.

      To quote Ghandi, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

    38. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Yes yes, you're a big man and we all fear and respect you. Do you also concealed carry just in case those scary criminals jump you? Very, very brave.

      However, this is all completely offtopic. I've got modpoints, but I find that it's more fun to antagonize people displaying internet bravado.

      Also, the most likely person to rape your wife or daughters is yourself, a family member, or a friend. Someone mentioning criminals and you jumping straight to "rape" sounds like a case of projection -- maybe you should check yourself in to a psychiatric ward?

      --Jeremy

      You make even most liberals look bad. It was an extreme example for an extreme topic; when he would decide to take another person's life. In the same situation I agree with him completely.

      Also, if you've got such a problem with a citizen being armed then perhaps you should advertise that you're not? I'm sure you could get a website to print you up some custom gear proclaiming your desire to become a victim for next to nothing. Or you could just move to China.

    39. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Applekid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wrong answer to my post. People who talk like you end up giving more value to the criminals than to victims.I expect such from someone like you though to write a response like you did, and you fell for it.

      I would KILL, perhaps even in a painful and gruesome manner, someone raping my wife or daughters, which is NOT humane to them, but is humane to my wife or daughters. You are confusing not being humane with being inhuman. There is a distinct difference.

      This is precisely why, in civilized societies, there is dispassionate legal system. There's a line between punishment of justice and vengeance of bloodlust that can only be crossed in a might-makes-right anarchy.

      I find your choice of handle to be rather curiously, if the quote reflects your true feelings.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    40. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you catch someone in the act of raping your wife or daughter? You might have a moral obligation to kill someone...painful or as gruesome as this may be.

      However, once they can no longer harm someone, for instance while in prison, your own humanity shows when you go to harm someone in your care. Even the dregs of the earth. It isn't giving value to those on the other side of the bars, its giving value to yourself. You are better than these assholes, and you shouldn't harm people just because you find them inferior to your way of life. After all, this is exactly what those assholes did -- they felt that they were owed something, that they were better than others, that they deserved to treat others the way that they did.

      It is in no way giving value to the criminal...its treating people as you would expect people the be treated in a civilized society and not making exceptions at how people should be treated.

      That said, I am against the death penalty, but in most cases, I don't blink an eye when a criminal is killed by a police officer while resisting arrest, or pulling a gun or threatening others...

    41. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, not everyone in prison did something inhumane.

      Shame TB doesn't have a strain that only infects rapists.

      On the other hand, the protestant worldview is that God would only infect people with this if they deserved it, thus they're rapists.

    42. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why unfortunately?
      It seems to me, if you had to have a incurable decease in your country you would want it to be quarantined, an to infect the people you like the least. A prison seems like the best place to have diseases, where else would you want it? In nurseries, in supermarkets?

      I sincerely have my doubts about the Russian Legal System, especially with the blatant bribery existing everywhere in the country.

      So your company wants you to travel to Russia, some militia man wants your watch and you refure, you get thrown to prison... and subsequently catch tuberculosis. Your company or the embassy will get you out eventually, but now you have Tuberculosis which is rather on the nasty side.

      Tuberculosis anywhere is unfortunate.

    43. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 2

      Besides the obvious responses to such an inhumane and unenlightened question, prisoners end up treated in normal hospitals, through which the disease can spread to other patients. In fact, the documentary we watched in first year biology introducing the subject was predominantly about a woman who was affected through that exact vector.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    44. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 2

      In addition to all the other responses, the prisoners have to be treated in hospitals. The disease can (and does) spread to the rest of the population from there.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    45. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not real bright are you? It has nothing to do with treatment, it has to do with anywhere from dozens to hundreds of prisoners being held in close quarters all day, everyday. All it takes is one to come in with undiagnosed or undetected TB and by the time he has had the symptoms worsen enough to be noticed he has infected others with it. Of course your kind doesnt care about reality, you just want a reason to be preachy and pump your chest online to a bunch of strangers because you want to sound right to yourself and you want others to see how right you are also because it satisfies your ego.

    46. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Mathinker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > but in most cases, I don't blink an eye when a criminal is killed by a police officer while resisting arrest

      It seems to me that "resisting arrest" is the most common way for police officers to frame/entrap innocent people, so, yes, I think you should be blinking a bit more, perhaps? Or were you thinking about the kind of extravagant resistance sometimes seen in movies and on TV?

    47. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FREE != somebody else to pay for it.

      GRATIS = no cost

    48. Re:Watch out Indonesia by repapetilto · · Score: 1

      Some of the comments here show an amazing degree of short sightedness. I think it may be an example of rational thought being turned off by hearing words like PRISON, CRIMINAL, both of which easily conjure RAPIST.

      7 X 18= ???

    49. Re:Watch out Indonesia by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      That last part sounds like one of the few benefits.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    50. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your post was not a cleverly designed trap you moron. You don't get points for thinking up an alternative to what you posted after the fact when a bunch of other people call you out on your hypocrisy. Nice try though.

    51. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't somebody else paying, it's gambling on misfortune. Everyones combined payment is greater than what is paid in coverage, otherwise insurance companies wouldn't be profitable.

    52. Re:Watch out Indonesia by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1, Funny

      That or Illinoisans, Indianians, Iowans, and Idahoans are doomed.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    53. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, not everyone in prison did something inhumane.

      Shame TB doesn't have a strain that only infects rapists.

      That's what AIDS is for. (Well that, and gays.)

    54. Re:Watch out Indonesia by tragedy · · Score: 2

      What if it were statutory rape? I don't know how old your daughter is, but let's say at some point in time either the future or the past she has or had sex with an over age boyfriend (for whatever the statutory age and close in age exemptions happen to be in your jurisdiction). Would you gruesomely murder the raping boyfriend then? If she's in love with the guy, how is that humane to your daughter? He would still be just as guilty under the law as someone who raped an adult woman by force. Quite possible more guilty. He'd be considered a pedophile in prison, so would probably get less humane treatment from simple-minded, vengeance-oriented prisoners and staff even than someone who'd forcibly raped an adult even if there were only a matter of months making it illegal.

      For that matter, regardless of the exact nature of the rape, even if it were forcible, are you sure your wife and daughter are in line with your thinking? They might, for example, not want horrible, violent vengeance meted out regardless of the crime, so murder still might not be humane to them. Plus, there's the matter of how they'd feel about you knowing for dead certain that you're capable of gruesome murder. The theory of the brave protector being willing to do anything might seem romantic in theory. In practice, they might end up terrified of you every time you lose your temper. Also, however much you might fantasize about righteously murdering someone, the reality is that it would probably leave you psychologically scarred, possibly with some form of PTSD. That kind of damage to you might very well also make your family miserable.

    55. Re:Watch out Indonesia by sjames · · Score: 1

      Poor sanitation, crowded conditions, and substandard health care make them giant reservoirs of the disease which then goes home with the staff and visitors.

      If prisons were clean, not so crowded, and provided good health care to the inmates, it wouldn't be a problem.

    56. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      You've got mod points?

      Watch out, we got a bad ass over here.

    57. Re:Watch out Indonesia by RoknrolZombie · · Score: 1

      TB runs rampant where there are overcrowding and health issues already. Viruses also evolve to become more resistant to treatments if given the opportunity (that's why hospitals are really bad places for people with already-compromised immune systems to go). I think what this indicates is that, unlike smallpox which is gone in the "world", TB has been continuing for decades to get stronger and more resistant to the medications that can fight it. Not only that, TB drugs are notoriously hard on the immune system (particularly the liver and kidneys), so if someone is already having health issues they can die really easy just by being treated for TB...I had a close friend die because of them. My biggest concern with stuff like this is that the world is a much smaller place then it used to be. All it takes is for the "wrong" person to travel from one of those countries to a crowded area in an unaffected nation (like, say someone coming into New York or Los Angeles) and it *could* spark another epidemic. Almost guaranteed if there's no feasible means to treat the illness.

    58. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would KILL, perhaps even in a painful and gruesome manner, someone raping my wife or daughters, which is NOT humane to them, but is humane to my wife or daughters

      Sure you would like to kill that rapist. I would as well if there wasn't the contract society enforces by it's existence, limiting our options.
        The human value of the perpetrators is independent of these actions, however. It doesn't mean we shouldn't kill them, if necessary, to stop them from doing the act. I would expect to be treated similarly if I couldn't control my impulse to kill somebody without an external (of my mind) and objectively rational reason. I wouldn't expect to be killed if other means to stop me would be available.
        Treating others as one would want to be treated by others and treating others with equanimity, compassion and respect are surprisingly flexible and empowering principles, leaving one with a good conscience at the end.

    59. Re:Watch out Indonesia by sjames · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, not everyone in prison did something inhumane.

      And there lies the problem. Sometimes we're wrong even when we personally witness an event. We don't always have the whole story. As long as we can be wrong (that is, as long as we're not perfect), we must treat everyone with humanity.

      On the practical side, if someone feels they have been inhumanely treated by mainstream society, it's no surprise if they decide that mainstream society is the enemy and unworthy of humane treatment themselves. A leading way to make someone think you have treated them inhumanely is to actually treat them inhumanely.

      While humane treatment of all may not make everything sunshine and lollipops, it's more likely to have a generally positive outcome than the other options.

    60. Re:Watch out Indonesia by geekoid · · Score: 1

      MOST people. in prison did nothing inhumane to get there. IN fact, less the 1% would even be worth talking abut to see if they were inhumane.and only 1% of those might be considered being inhumane.

      Also, if you can turn on and off you humanity, then you don't really have any.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    61. Re:Watch out Indonesia by geekoid · · Score: 2

      You are clueless of the cost of end of life care.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    62. Re:Watch out Indonesia by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I would want it NO WHERE.
      Prison isn't some isolated place. Prisoners associate with other prisoners and guards, who eventually go home.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    63. Re:Watch out Indonesia by geekoid · · Score: 1

      which means they stand a far better chance of building up resistance than to suffering any hardship.

      that make NO SENSE. Stop talking about shit you know nothing about.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    64. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Surt · · Score: 1

      But I do know what the statistics say it costs.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    65. Re:Watch out Indonesia by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Sure it's not a guarantee that one will turn into a genocidal mad man, but accepting the premise that some people don't deserve to be treated humanely makes it a significantly shorter trip.

      Sure, ask Neville Chamberlain about that one. Or should we ask the homicidal mad man who had already invaded other countries whom Chamberlain treated humanely in his search for appeasement? Or ask the 11 million that departed after Chamberlain was proved a fool. Oh I'm sorry, they can't. By treating (sorry I mean appeasing) a tyrant humanely and civilly he allowed the tyrant to turn into, or better put, to express his genocidal feelings (I hear you types like to express things as feelings). Guess they still sum up your lame assed stupid fucking theory. You see it isn't a matter of not treating everyone humanely that puts you on the road to becoming a genocidal maniac, it is a matter of not treating the ones who don't deserve it inhumanely.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    66. Re:Watch out Indonesia by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Even I can't figure out my last sentence... here it is again: it is a matter of treating people who don't deserve it inhumanely that sets you on the road to being a genocidal madman.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    67. Re:Watch out Indonesia by MobyDisk · · Score: 2

      That test requires weeks to months since TB grows so slowly.

    68. Re:Watch out Indonesia by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      the problem is that 'inhumane-ity' is a subjective issue derived from emotionally driven belief. having a government decide by committee instead of individuals between themselves just makes the belief-fallacy into another type: argument from popularity. Systems like this persist because people like you just like the warm fuzzies that come with cheering on a tyrant that, to some, inhumanely attacks others its policies claim are acting inhumanely... justice systems around the world rotate around this socio-politically driven, hypocritical axis. the more polarized the politics (even multipolar non-US politics apply), the more quickly it spins, bypassing more and more moderative policy (punishment that fits the crime/is punishment for said action in the long term best interests of the society/does this action even victimize at all? etc).

    69. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't the real story that it's in three countries, and that they are geographically disparate?

      Not really, using antibiotics in 3rd world countries (health-wise) is much worst than in 1st world countries - what the 3 countries have in common is that they are all filled with sick people living in relatively close proximity - when one is treated, they very likely go back to their friends and family, who very likely also have the disease - instead of the antibiotics killing it off in whole within their own body, the disease continues to enter them from different sources, effectively creating a meta-Human incubator that has a relatively small quantity of the antibiotic, enough to cause issues for the disease but not kill it off 100%, or in other words, become resistant. We should really be stopping the use of these treatments when they cannot be carried out effectively (ie: keeping the person in quarantine until the antibiotics are out of their system, and incinerating any Human waste) - and while it is likely we will develop new antibiotics - there are only so many that can exist, and we will continue to waste them until there are none if we follow the current practices.

    70. Re:Watch out Indonesia by jd · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I have frequently been accused of being elitist and a snob by looking down on people for not having even the most basic understanding, but really it's not elitist to think. It's elitist to think you don't have to think. I hold people as entirely capable of rational thought, basic education and intelligent conversation - and that if they elect not to perform these very simple tasks that it is they who are holding themselves as "above all that". There are no ivory towers, only ivory pits.

      I comprehend the human immune system perfectly well, how it learns, the impact of exposure below the threshold at which illness actually develops, etc. If you wish to live in a la-la land where resistance is magically there without any exposure, feel free. You're an idiot for it if you do.

      Or perhaps you believe that low-level exposure (well below the point at which symptoms would appear) isn't enough. Perhaps you take kids to Chicken Pox parties, too. (Brain dead, the lot of ya!) Do you really need me to explain why you can go on vacation somewhere and find that the locals can drink the water but you can't? Seriously? Or is it more of that magic stuff to you?

      Low level exposure levels are incredibly useful. (The main reason auto-immune diseases have become common is that low level exposure isn't happening often enough.) Vaccines often utilize such exposure, however the question was not of artificial exposure but of an ideal place. The best place of all for low level exposure is a place where you have low-to-medium population densities, very short exposure times, a heavily temperature controlled environment, absolutely no serious risk of build-up and very limited human interaction.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    71. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 2

      Hey, 1985 called. It wants it's homophobia and crude misunderstanding of infectious diseases back.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    72. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    73. Re:Watch out Indonesia by cusco · · Score: 1

      Italy is not a third world country.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    74. Re:Watch out Indonesia by jamesh · · Score: 2

      Any vaccine will ruin a test for antibodies. What we need is a direct test for the bacteria.

      It lives in the lungs... FOR GOD SAKES!

      It obviously doesn't stay there though otherwise it could never spread to another person... so maybe a paper bag treated with some reactive agent that the patient can cough into would be the sort of test the GP was thinking of.

    75. Re:Watch out Indonesia by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      I'm 90% certain he was being satirical--as in making fun of the people who believe that.

    76. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      You mean kind of like I was doing?

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    77. Re:Watch out Indonesia by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      After everything Berlusconi did to it, it certainly is a third world country.

    78. Re:Watch out Indonesia by veeren76 · · Score: 1

      Its Gandhi not Ghandi... not to nit-pick, i'm just trying spread the info, personally i'm not fond of Gandhi...

      --
      Common sense is not common
    79. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does this merit even a +1 for interesting? Even if there were a correlation, (which I feel safe saying there's not,) the fact that Israel, Ireland, Isle of Man, Iberia, Iraq, and as you point out Indonesia, not to mention the other million locales whose names start with the letter "i", etc., have not seen this suggests this is more of an unhappy coincidence. I'm griping here, about a problem with moderation. Seriously, a stupid, asinine remark like this gets a FIVE? HOW? Maybe there's a thought resistant strain of nonsense on slashdot. Wonder if it's related to the drug resistant diseases popping up in places with names starting with "i".

    80. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember, Third World faces make for Third World places.

    81. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Yup. Too many people conflate "accused" with "guilty."

    82. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      It's truly sad people are willing to take the view that a suspect must necessarily have done something to deserve whatever he gets.

      When someone is killed while "resisting arrest," the only evidence is frequently the word of the murderer. Not all cops are good guys. We have one here locally who's about to start a prison sentence 6 years after unjustifiably killing someone, a crime which was caught on no less than 4 cameras.

      The city prosecutor covered up the two most damning angles in an effort to characterize the killing as "justified." Fortunately, he'll either be out of a job or the new mayor who promised to fire him will be. At least he's been removed unilaterally from representing the police force, since he's a sick little fuck whose first act is to counter-sue absolutely anyone who brings a judicial complaint against the city.

    83. Re:Watch out Indonesia by treeves · · Score: 1

      Posting to /. from your slide rule again? Stop showing off.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    84. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if it were statutory rape? I don't know how old your daughter is, but let's say at some point in time either the future or the past she has or had sex with an over age boyfriend (for whatever the statutory age and close in age exemptions happen to be in your jurisdiction).... He'd be considered a pedophile in prison, so would probably get less humane treatment from simple-minded, vengeance-oriented prisoners and staff even than someone who'd forcibly raped an adult even if there were only a matter of months making it illegal. Regardless of the exact nature of the rape, even if it were forcible, are you sure your wife and daughter are in line with your thinking? They might, for example, not want horrible, violent vengeance meted out regardless of the crime, so murder still might not be humane to them. Plus, there's the matter of how they'd feel about you knowing for dead certain that you're capable of gruesome murder.

      Strangely enough, I've been in that situation. And regardless of the "situation", if you rape, you should *die*. There's no such thing as innocent statutory rape. So quit messing around with 15 year olds (unless you're in Kentucky), and you won't have to worry.

    85. Re:Watch out Indonesia by level_headed_midwest · · Score: 1

      Sick prisoners often go to an actual hospital and thus require 1:1 guarding. Trust me, I work at a hospital and frequently see this.

      --
      Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
    86. Re:Watch out Indonesia by ae1294 · · Score: 1

      Any vaccine will ruin a test for antibodies. What we need is a direct test for the bacteria.

      It lives in the lungs... FOR GOD SAKES!

      It obviously doesn't stay there though otherwise it could never spread to another person... so maybe a paper bag treated with some reactive agent that the patient can cough into would be the sort of test the GP was thinking of.

      I stand corrected. That is a great idea....

    87. Re:Watch out Indonesia by tragedy · · Score: 2

      So, to be clear, a man/woman in a mutual relationship with a man/woman 1 day from the statutory age where it would be legal for them to have sex who has sex, without any force involved deserves *death*, no exceptions, no appeal. Meanwhile, 5 miles from where the crime was committed, across a state line, a couple with the exact same ages could have sex and it's perfectly legal. Do you understand why this bothers people? The fact that the exact same actions can either be completely ok (well, maybe not to busybodies), or worthy of a death sentence based on arbitrary local age standards. It certainly breaks the illusion that the law is just and fair.

      Anyway that's virtually irrelevant to my point. In the scenario I mentioned, the older partner might be amorally preying on the younger partners youth and inexperience. That happens a lot virtually regardless of the younger partners age. It certainly happens a lot to sheltered teenagers 18 and older when they go off to college. If the younger partner is in love with the older partner, regardless of whether the older partner is actually in love too or is a predatory monster, it's going to seriously mess them up if the older partner is gruesomely murdered because they had sex.

      Seriously. I just get so sick of all these super judgemental people who don't care about details, they just want to jump straight to the gruesome fatal vengeance. They're living in a fantasy world where that solves everything and any other solution is a weakness that just makes things worse. They don't care about the morality of the situation, they just want to judge harshly and take what they see as heroic action against the "scum". Often these same people also want to commit genocide on 50% of the worlds population or more based on things like their religious affiliation or because they're "stealing" jobs, etc. It's pretty sick.

    88. Re:Watch out Indonesia by jamesh · · Score: 1

      I may have to stand corrected myself... it may live in the lungs but can be latent and not come out, only developing later. I also assume that my idea is so obvious that if it isn't being done already there is obviously a good reason for it... the guys who fight these diseases aren't stupid.

    89. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you quote someone at least spell their name correctly. It is GANDHI.

    90. Re:Watch out Indonesia by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Seriously. I just get so sick of all these super judgemental people who don't care about details, they just want to jump straight to the gruesome fatal vengeance. They're living in a fantasy world where that solves everything and any other solution is a weakness that just makes things worse. They don't care about the morality of the situation, they just want to judge harshly and take what they see as heroic action against the "scum". Often these same people also want to commit genocide on 50% of the worlds population or more based on things like their religious affiliation or because they're "stealing" jobs, etc. It's pretty sick.

      I'm glad you brought this up because I noticed the same thing and have been thinking on this subject recently.

      Ever noticed how in TV shows, for example Lost comes to mine---the common recurring situation where they would capture an "enemy", then be debating what to do with him? There would always be this idea of "we don't need him anymore, just kill him" that you would think any members of a rational, peaceful society would immediately reject as barbaric, yet they would hem and haw about it. Like, seriously? You really have to sit there and think about this to figure out the right thing to do?

      I think this attitude basically extends across our entire culture. Life has lost much of its value in our society. It's a cultural bubble of evil that's been growing for decades. The way I see it, it's coming to a head, and this is either going to end in one of two ways, and soon:

      a) huge wakeup call in the form of WW3 (hello Iran)

      b) a cultural renaissance (aka Ron Paul Revolution.)

    91. Re:Watch out Indonesia by shiftless · · Score: 1

      A prison seems like the best place to have diseases, where else would you want it? In nurseries, in supermarkets?

      Congress would be a good start.

    92. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (The main reason auto-immune diseases have become common is that low level exposure isn't happening often enough.)

      Oh god please. Just listen to the GP and shut up.

    93. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gandhi's problem is that he'd tolerate a world where him and his were blind while complaining about the injustice and lack of ethics.

      I'd rather have a blind world than be the only blind person. So stay the hell away from my eyes.

    94. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever noticed how in TV shows, for example Lost comes to mine---the common recurring situation where they would capture an "enemy", then be debating what to do with him? There would always be this idea of "we don't need him anymore, just kill him" that you would think any members of a rational, peaceful society would immediately reject as barbaric, yet they would hem and haw about it. Like, seriously? You really have to sit there and think about this to figure out the right thing to do?

      I think this attitude basically extends across our entire culture. Life has lost much of its value in our society. It's a cultural bubble of evil that's been growing for decades.

      Uhh, since when have humans lived in a rational, peaceful society that wasn't immediately conquered by someone with less morals? Where in the world today does such a society exist?

      You say life has lost its value, but the "value" you seem to think life is worth has existed for less than half a century. You seem to think that we have fallen from an ideal world that existed in the past. I would hope that the opposite is the case and mankind is actually heading in the right direction now.

    95. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, you have Idaho, Illinois, Indiana and Iowa.

    96. Re:Watch out Indonesia by chuckugly · · Score: 1

      In the USA accused people don't go to prison, not sure about Russia, but maybe that's what Americans see when they read statements like that.

    97. Re:Watch out Indonesia by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      But if it's in the prison system killing prisoners, isn't that reducing the costs of those prisons? How is that unfortunate?

      Well, I suppose that hinges on whether or not you believe every crime that qualifies for a gaol sentence also qualifies for the death penalty, and that the legal system is infallible.

    98. Re:Watch out Indonesia by dimethylxanthine · · Score: 0

      And those convicted wrongfully. As is often the case in Russia and the ex-Sovit block. *sigh*

    99. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you just let them take your eyes out, that will only leave you and your family blind and dead, but your enemy will live happily ever after... you stupid mutt.

      The goal is to destroy your enemy before your enemy destroys you, otherwise you are dead. Violence is the supreme authority from which all others derive, and it has solved more confrontations than any other means, throughout the history. An immediate contradiction to the pathetic quote "violence never solved anything".

    100. Re:Watch out Indonesia by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      The idea is obvious, but the implementation is not. Identifying bacteria is hard, so making a test for it is hard. That is why people are not doing it already, they are quite confortable with x-rays, and don't think in investing large sums of money on it.

      On the positive side, you have enough to get an US patent on it.

    101. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Surt · · Score: 2

      I had really meant the question to mean: what population should society prefer a disease to run through, if it were to run through any, such that this population should qualify as 'unfortunate' compared to any other.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    102. Re:Watch out Indonesia by benhattman · · Score: 1

      I don't really understand why the parent here is modded insightful. In GPs scenario, your spouse and children are in the act of being raped. It's unclear what GPs options are in the hypothetical, but the one option he makes clear is that slaying the rapists is an immediate option, and that it will (obviously) stop their continued violation of his family. And Ps response to that is, "you are not in the proper emotional condition under such circumstances to make that decision."

      I'm sorry, but WTF? And several people agreed? Think about it for just a second. Your daughters are being raped in front of you. Pretend your two options are lethal force and dialing 911. Keep in mind that nonlethal force is not always an option (exactly how hard must you hit a guy in the back of the head with a baseball bat to knock him out but not kill him) and if you are in doubt and either your lives or the intruders are at stake, it is better to error on the side of too much force than too little. Depending on where you live, it will take the police between 2 and 15 minutes to arrive at your home, during which time your daughters will continue to be raped.

      This isn't an eye-for-eye situation, like the P suggested. This is a question of what intervention is appropriate at an exact violent moment in time. The GP is completely correct. The right thing to do is anything necessary to stop the assailants. It's a completely different story if the rape happened yesterday, and the rapist was just picked up at a bus stop. That's when the justice system can act. GP is clearly too eager to dehumanize felons, but P is too eager to claim that the justice system is the proper response under all circumstances. There is a middle ground.

    103. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting detail: According to an NPR radio interview with Ben Kingsley, the actor who played Gandhi in the film, that quote was made up by the scriptwriter. Gandhi was never recorded as having said, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

      Thank you, Hollyweird.

      AC

    104. Re:Watch out Indonesia by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      That wasn't my point, because the effects of being perceived as "guilty" simply on account of an accusation go far beyond the circumstances of whether you're incarcerated or not. In fact, I'd say that there are many effects far more important in terms of impacting your life long-term than simply being incarcerated.

      That said, there certainly are many who go to jail in the USA simply for being accused. If you can't pay bail, you go away until your trial. If you're accused of certain crimes, you may not even get a chance to post bail.

    105. Re:Watch out Indonesia by hellop2 · · Score: 1

      I think you mean the TB skin test. Not a vaccination.

      TB is bacterial, not viral, right? That's why everyone is complaining that there are antibiotic resistant strains of TB. Vaccinations work on viral infections, antibiotics on bacterial infections.

      So, don't let your kid exchange bodily fluid with a TB active person thinking they are immune, ok?

      --
      How many more years will slashdot have an off-by-one error on your Score in your profile?
    106. Re:Watch out Indonesia by swalve · · Score: 1

      Replace prison with hospital, and that's how we got MRSA.

    107. Re:Watch out Indonesia by swalve · · Score: 1

      I guess it depends on what the intervention is. Do you shoot the guy, or knock him in the head with a club? Those might be humane ways of ending the threat. Or do you wait until he's done, lock him in your basement, infect him with AIDS and watch him die over the course of a dozen years? Same result, different motivations.

    108. Re:Watch out Indonesia by tragedy · · Score: 1

      What you're describing is a race to the bottom. If it really worked that way, we wouldn't have the vaguest concept of morals left by now. Or any human beings left, for that matter. You basically posit two possible types of society: one that's aggressive and conquers, or one that's not aggressive and is conquered. It's actually possible for a society to peaceful, not go around conquering everyone, but still be ready to defend itself. I don't think the GPs solutions are particularly likely to work, but the point about the extremely questionable ethics of pretty much all protagonists in popular media these days is pretty spot on.

    109. Re:Watch out Indonesia by telstar · · Score: 1

      We really need 1) better vaccines and 2) better ways of detecting early infections.

      Traditional TB testing takes up to 24 days to get results in a petri dish.
      This company has new technology that accelerates those results to as little as 4 days.

      http://nanologix.com/test_results.html

  6. That explains that weird call to customer support by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I was wondering why "Bob" kept coughing.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  7. This will be unpopular.... by tlambert · · Score: 1, Funny

    This will be unpopular....

    I understand that we are supposed to be a society of victimology, where it's more important that a single victim feel good about themselves than it is to save society, or the species, as a whole, but...

    Maybe it's time to go back to the pre-antibiotic known-working fixes for contagious diseases for which there is no cure, i.e.: sanitariums and leper colonies? At least that way, in two hundred years, there will still be people around to feel morally outraged at the excesses of their ancestors.

    -- Terry

    1. Re:This will be unpopular.... by s_p_oneil · · Score: 3, Informative

      It might be popular if it stood a chance of working...

      Wikipedia quote:
      One third of the world's population is thought to be infected with M. tuberculosis,[3][4] and new infections occur at a rate of about one per second.[3] In 2007 there were an estimated 13.7 million chronic active cases,[5] and in 2010 8.8 million new cases, and 1.45 million deaths, mostly in developing countries.[6] The absolute number of tuberculosis cases has been decreasing since 2006 and new cases since 2002.[6] In addition, more people in the developing world contract tuberculosis because their immune systems are more likely to be compromised due to higher rates of AIDS.[7] The distribution of tuberculosis is not uniform across the globe; about 80% of the population in many Asian and African countries test positive in tuberculin tests, while only 5–10% of the U.S. population test positive.[1]

      It sounds like many Asian and African countries need the opposite (a place for all the healthy people to go).

    2. Re:This will be unpopular.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unpopular because it's an idea without merit.

      What problem does your plan solve? Using no antibiotics ever and letting everyone infected die is about the same as overusing them to the point where every infection is resistant. You have no fewer infections and no fewer deaths.

    3. Re:This will be unpopular.... by myrdos2 · · Score: 2

      TB can be vaccinated against.

    4. Re:This will be unpopular.... by Dogtanian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can't work out whether this is meant to be a joke or not, or whether the people who modded it up as "Funny" misinterpreted it as a joke, or whether they thought it wasn't a joke, but modded it up as "Funny" anyway to show how laughable they thought it was.... :-/

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    5. Re:This will be unpopular.... by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Tuberculin tests are just that, they test for the antibody. So even people who are no longer infected, or were vaccinated will test positive.

    6. Re:This will be unpopular.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I certainly hope that this was meant to be funny. I understand that Conservative society is based on a distorted version of Darwinism where God helps those who help themselves and the Devil take the hindmost.

      Back before antibiotics, lepers were relegated to colonies. In fact, they still are, I believe, although effective treatment means that they aren't as common or as large as in the Good Old Days.

      Back before antibiotics, however, TB (a/k/a Consumption, a/k/a The White Plague) was endemic. There were no "TB colonies". Too many people had TB, it could be mistaken for other respiratory diseases (up to a point), and it was easy to hide.

      Overall, however, given a choice between isolation of contagious diseases and spending public money on cures for the "incurables", I'd rather not play the lottery and hope that God loves me enough to keep me healthy. Darwinian evolution is both kinder and crueler than God, and more dependable.

    7. Re:This will be unpopular.... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Problem is, the vaccine;

      a. Is not overly effective. It works about 60% of the time at best.
      b. Only lasts 10-15 years.
      c. Causes false positives on our best TB screening test.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    8. Re:This will be unpopular.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +5:Funny

    9. Re:This will be unpopular.... by governorx · · Score: 1

      And your comment which claims a lack of insight is modded as insightful. How is that for irony?

    10. Re:This will be unpopular.... by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      a. 60% resistence is enough to turn what would be an epidemics into a few unfortunate cases.

      b. That is good enough, isn't it? You only have to take the vaccine every 10 years.

      c. Yep, that is a problem. Not nearly bad enough to displace "a", but a problem.

  8. Evolution by necro81 · · Score: 0

    But evolution is just a theory that's out there. It isn't actually true.

    Right?

    1. Re:Evolution by geoffrobinson · · Score: 2

      Can you point to a Young Earth Creationist who doesn't think natural selection can account for drug resistance? Because I haven't come across one. Let alone the Old Earthers or more generic Intelligent Design folk.

      --
      Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    2. Re:Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is obviously God's will, and part of His plan. Intelligent Design is not just something that happened at the dawn of time, *POOF*, and everything was created. It is an ongoing phenomenon and if anything this makes it more obvious now than it was before. It's happening before our very eyes, and we honestly should stop trying to thwart God's will, and instead live by His rules and accept His wisdom, even though we may not always understand it.

    3. Re:Evolution by sidthegeek · · Score: 1

      Pastor Jake? Is that you?

    4. Re:Evolution by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      The problem is that Young Earthers and ID folks who believe in evolution are just cherry-picking their position on evolution for their own convenience. There is no rational way to believe both that evolution works for bacterial resistance, but that it doesn't work for anything else.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    5. Re:Evolution by geoffrobinson · · Score: 1

      Just because you believe a process can take a stroll down the sidewalk doesn't necessitate that you have to believe it can build a rocket ship and go to the moon.

      --
      Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
  9. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only silver lining is that it's not even more deadly. At least we can learn about the effectiveness of quarantine methods in the modern era before something even more deadly shows up.

    Also each evolution that allows a bacteria to become resistant to a drug weakens the bacteria in all other cases.

    A cure for antibotic resistant bacteria may simply be to stop all antibotic dosing and infect them with a large dose of a non-resistant from of the bacteria. Obviously, this will post will be riped off and used in an all new episode of House. Especially, since it would be pretty dangerious.

  10. Name that movie title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An incurable air transmittable disease in a high population density region.

    1. Re:Name that movie title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, you can't just blow up the bridges around India.

  11. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I could ramble aimlessly about this general topic for a while, but instead to farm karma more efficiently I think I'll make an obscure, off topic point that I think is interesting by analogy: this directing of evolution also occurs at an environmental scale. Life may find ways to survive in the presence of all the chemicals we dump into the ecosystem, but it will be more vulnerable to other stressors as a result, including those through which it would normally survive. In combination with the on-going loss of diversity caused by more direct damage to the environment, life as we know it is pretty cornered.

    It's a little as if we're extremely incompetent first-year med students trying to eliminate a patient's symptoms (i.e. the planet's inherent imperfection for supporting modern life) and we're on the verge of unintentionally killing off the infection that's actually responsible. (Admittedly, this is a lousy analogy, but it's important to realise that it's happening.)

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  12. Darwinian Evolution of Indian Society? by BoRegardless · · Score: 0, Troll

    So...the non-resistant Indians die and leave a super-race?

    Oh, there is also nearly totally drug resistant MRSA in India and the WHO in the EU has now found 80% of travellers coming back from India have MRSA in their gut.

    Wonderful new low cost product solutions from India. Ain't we happy?

    1. Re:Darwinian Evolution of Indian Society? by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      KHANNNNNnnnnnnnnnn!!!!

      (In case you didn't know, he was supposed to have been an Indian prince).

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    2. Re:Darwinian Evolution of Indian Society? by dooode · · Score: 2

      @Boregardless: How about you stop your racist tripe and take a dose of facts:

      The origin of MSRA has been primarily traced from Europe, and thats where today there are maximum infections (and deaths).

      Read:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-resistant_Staphylococcus_aureus#US_and_UK

      Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) primarily originated from UK. MRSA was responsible for 94,360 serious infections and associated with 18,650 hospital stay-related deaths in the United States in 2005. MRSA is thought to have caused 1,652 deaths in 2006 in UK up from 51 in 1993. Worldwide, an estimated 2 billion people carry some form of S. aureus; of these, up to 53 million (2.7% of carriers) are thought to carry MRSA.[59] In the United States, 95 million carry S. aureus in their noses; of these, 2.5 million (2.6% of carriers) carry MRSA. As a matter of fact # of hospital aquired infections (that includes MRSA) in Europe ranges from 4% to 10% of all hospital admissions.

    3. Re:Darwinian Evolution of Indian Society? by Guppy · · Score: 2

      You're trying to be funny here, but as the linked nature article says, "Tuberculosis trails behind only HIV as the world’s leading cause of death from infectious disease."-- and unlike HIV, it has been circulating since antiquity. There's a fair bit of speculation (though difficult to prove) that evolutionary pressure from TB has contributed to some types of autoimmune disease susceptibility.

    4. Re:Darwinian Evolution of Indian Society? by BoRegardless · · Score: 2

      I'm not racist.

      I quite admire the Indian's ability to survive in the face of their societal and economic circumstances where the challenges are huge on multiple levels.

      The info I cited came from WHO report data which was in the UK Telegraph, if I remember the source correctly, and it was published about 2 weeks ago.

    5. Re:Darwinian Evolution of Indian Society? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Darn. You beat me to it.

  13. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by shadowrat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Also each evolution that allows a bacteria to become resistant to a drug weakens the bacteria in all other cases.

    I had not understood this to be true. I keep hearing that strains of bacteria become resistant to all antibiotics. not just a queue of 3, then the next strain is resistant to a 4th antibiotic, but no longer resistant to the first. Evolution does seem to favor specialization, but traits are only lost if they hinder. I don't know exactly what the mechanism of resistance is, but i don't know that each kind of antibiotic requires some new organ to exist resulting in lumpy slow bacteria.

  14. Distribution of Drug-Resistant TB by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those interested in exactly how prevalent this sort of thing is, be aware that drug resistant TB is in almost every country in the world; it's just really bad in those particular three countries. This journal article from 2006 has maps showing the incidence rates per country.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    1. Re:Distribution of Drug-Resistant TB by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      I personally blame people for stopping the take on the antibiotics in the first place for dooming us all. Man are we seriously moving back to the days of 40 to 150 years ago when we're going to start seeing "Quarantine" signs on houses? Well it sure the hell might be a good idea at this point.

      My sister had TB when she was younger, picked it up as a candy striper. The hospital didn't pick it up in the patient in time, new immigrant, no check protocols at the time. This is going back oh almost 20 years now here in Canada. She was on antibiotics for 6 months. The problem of course is that, most people will probably say go and stop after a month because they're feeling better. That is if they're even showing signs.

      These days there's rules and protocols on everything at least. My favorite is..."if you think your patient has TB, or you're transporting a prisoner who you believe has TB, drive with your windows down." At least ambulance drivers get masks, cops don't. At least not from their services.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:Distribution of Drug-Resistant TB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your journal is not accepting questions :(

    3. Re:Distribution of Drug-Resistant TB by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Will fix!

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    4. Re:Distribution of Drug-Resistant TB by RyoShin · · Score: 1

      For those that want more information, pick up the book "Mountains Beyond Mountains" by Tracy Kidder. It was required reading for my Senior Ethics class in Uni, though I only read 3/4 of the book at the time. Earlier this year I actually read it the whole way through. Not only is it very well written and often humorous, it talks about a very interesting character, one Dr. Paul Farmer, and his ongoing efforts against TB globally, specifically at the poverty level in countries (mainly Haiti) where they would consider the U.S. poverty level middle class. Farmer does a lot more than just TB work, but much of his life has been devoted to lowering the cost for TB medication and advising various governments on TB programs (including Russia's prison epidemic).

      I'm sure you could find more complete information about TB and its history in medical textbooks, but Mountains Beyond Mountains gives a very good intro to it (in a modern sense) while also making for good reading.

      Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Mountains-Beyond-Healing-World-Farmer/dp/0375506160

  15. Why isn't every disease drug-resistant in India? by dooode · · Score: 1, Informative

    I am not surprised that they found a drug resistant TB strain in India. The only thing that surprises me is why not every disease is drug resistant in India.

    Many poor Indians would pop anti-biotic tablets like candies after buying them for few cents from an over the counter store (its in direct contrast to the US system where even after paying a fortune you don't get antibiotics). They are often cheap, more or less affective and gets them rid of the problems...but not always.

    Antibiotics would require you to finish an entire course, else they become ineffective for ever. There are uneducated idiots in India who would pop one or two tablets and never heed to advice by the pharmacist (and at times they would not have enough money to buy the complete course too).

    So why are we surprised that there is an emergence of a strain that no antibiotics can cure? Most likely the previous commenter is right - they haven't found an alternative antibiotic yet. I am sure some random Indian lab would develop it in a few months, but it won't work for long - its more of a systemic problem than a medical issue.

  16. Not just in India by LizardKing · · Score: 2

    We've had drug resistant TB in the UK. That includes one case in Basingstoke, where a family friend works as a nurse. The patient is (or was, this was two years ago) an intravenous drug user.

    1. Re:Not just in India by Gothmolly · · Score: 0

      So no big loss then.

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    2. Re:Not just in India by LizardKing · · Score: 1

      It was yo momma, so no.

  17. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by trimpnick · · Score: 2

    It's the energetic cost. Think of climbing Everest, an electric heater and generator+fuel might be very useful, but the weight you have to lug around is really prohibitive to doing it, so you only take what's necessary to survive up there.

  18. The cure is obvious by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

    Unless you choose to add silly requirements like "the patient must survive the treatment".

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:The cure is obvious by FlavaFlavivirus · · Score: 1

      "We cured the infection by treating the patient in an autoclave. Unfortunately, he did not survive."

  19. I am Jack's complete and utter lack of surprise. by Dogtanian · · Score: 2

    in india antibiotics are used as if it was water

    Yeah, I've heard about this. In particular, about them being given out like M&Ms, even for viral infections where the doctors knew damn well that they'd do nothing useful, but wanted to pander to the patients. That's not even the OP's "overuse", it's blatant and irresponsible misuse that was obviously going to cause major grief at some point- well, here we are.

    I've heard it said that such people had no other option, but since their only "option" didn't work, the doctors would have been more responsible giving them placebo sugar pills. Wouldn't have helped those particular patients any more, but it would have caused less harm to the same demographic of poor people in general that this TB is now most likely to hit.

    At any rate, if it hadn't already been in the headline, I'd have guessed (rightly) that it had started in India- this isn't remotely surprising.

    --
    "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  20. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    There was this nice experiment in which viruses in a test tube with an artificial environment (with viral materials for wiral reproduction) eventually shed all the parts they needed to enter and use living cells, which made them reproduce faster and outpace their slower-reproducing, cell-infection-capable siblings...and then when they deprived them of said materials and reintroduced live cells, the "more evolved" viruses were out of luck.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  21. Re:I am Jack's complete and utter lack of surprise by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2

    Yeah, I've heard about this. In particular, about them being given out like M&Ms, even for viral infections where the doctors knew damn well that they'd do nothing useful, but wanted to pander to the patients. That's not even the OP's "overuse", it's blatant and irresponsible misuse that was obviously going to cause major grief at some point- well, here we are.

    And, to make things even worse, the standard from what I've seen among the Indians I have worked with is to take the antibiotics until starting to feel better, then stop taking them. This results in recurrent infections of resistant bacteria. I've also observed this a lot with people from the Caribbean.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  22. Re:Why isn't every disease drug-resistant in India by mspohr · · Score: 2

    Stop feeling so superior (and stop being so condescending to others).
    Developed countries abuse antibiotics by feeding them to animals for better yields and by doctors kowtowing to worried patients with viral infections.
    There are "uneducated idiots" (to use your phrase) everywhere.
    As another poster pointed out, drug-resistant TB is everywhere. http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/194/4/479.full.pdf

    --
    I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
  23. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Evolution takes a time, it takes time for an adaptation to happen by chance before it may be expanded within a population through selection, which also takes time. In general the stronger the selective pressure the faster the spread of the change and the more complex the change the slower the initial adaptation happens. Most drugs apply massive evolutionary pressure.

    Resistance comes at a (usually small) cost, in energy or efficiency, which depends on the method of resistance, but the same mechanism may through adaptation confer resistance to related drugs within a class. This means that adding extra dugs from a class to the set resisted may come at next to no energy cost, but new classes of antibiotics come at a higher cost both in energy and time.

    Because of the difference in cost it takes much longer for resistance to pass from the population than it does to spread, so you need to take the drug out of circulation for long enough the resistance trait to completely disappear, which I think is at least a decade, and we have yet to do this deliberately. We have however done this unintentionally with some of the older less safe drugs and they are nowadays used as drugs of last resort in some cases.

  24. Additional Note: 1 patient ran away by Saishuuheiki · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It was also mentioned on NPR that one of the patients with the drug-immune TB in India actually checked themselves out of the hospital and they can't find them.

    Here's to you our new "Patient Zero"

    1. Re:Additional Note: 1 patient ran away by future+assassin · · Score: 1

      We should bring him in as a white house and entertainment reporter. Corporate and Gov corruption solved with a few coughs

      --
      by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    2. Re:Additional Note: 1 patient ran away by Briareos · · Score: 1

      We should bring him in as a white house and entertainment reporter. Corporate and Gov corruption solved with a few coughs

      And there I always thought corruption was no coughing matter...

      --

      "I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole

  25. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by Guppy · · Score: 1

    In a previous thread I wrote a response to a similar question which I'll paste here. The question was a bit different (concerning how fast drug resistance would be lost over time), and related to organisms other than TB (for instance, TB drug resistance isn't plasmid-mediated, as far as I know) -- so my reply doesn't directly respond to your question. However, the gist is the same -- with prolonged evolutionary selection, drug resistance mechanisms with high costs will be gradually replaced by more efficient solutions.

    Loss-of-function or alterations of form are indeed one of of the possible mechanisms, and tends to be the more easily-evolved type, so you will often see those appear (and disappear) the fastest. However, occasionally you see mutations that are "free" to the bug, and represent a genuine evolutionary advance that will stick around, possibly forever.

    Outside of this, resistance mechanisms are mostly plasmid-encoded factors for things such as antibiotic-degrading enzymes, efflux pumps, and other such defenses. The evolutionary cost for these can range from very high to trivially low, depending (does your enzyme soak up lots of resources to make, or is it highly efficient? Is it permanently switched on, or does it come with an induction mechanism that only triggers when appropriate?). In addition, many bacteria can swap plasmids around, allowing for more genetic versatility.

    So the short answer is, that there is no short answer. How fast resistance disappears when antibiotics are no longer used, will depend on each particular situation. However, over time quick-and-dirty solutions will tend to be replaced by more evolutionarily elegant adaptations.

  26. Re:That explains that weird call to customer suppo by spam4rakesh · · Score: 0

    I think this comment is racist.

  27. Re:I am Jack's complete and utter lack of surprise by SydShamino · · Score: 1

    I wonder if there would be benefit to making antibiotics that are combined with an opiate painkiller. The drugs would only be available to be taken at a hospital or clinic. The patient would need the painkiller, but returning for their antibiotic would reward them with the opiate. The final few days of antibiotic would have progressively smaller opiate doses to wind them down.

    It's probably a bad idea, but protecting antibiotics is important enough to consider radical changes in prescription methods.

    --
    It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  28. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (with viral materials for wiral reproduction)

    Vaz dis experiment done on a Nuclear Wessel?

  29. Nature always bats last by InterGuru · · Score: 1

    (unable to attribute quote)

  30. Re:That explains that weird call to customer suppo by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    Apparently, so is this new strain of TB.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  31. Odd by lightknight · · Score: 1

    I was actually thinking about biological weapons the other day, and how useless they tend to be. The US has smallpox cultures somewhere (which are often cited as one possible biological weapon), and yet when I pondered things, I came to the conclusion that a new strain of TB would be the most effective biological weapon one can use: 1.) we know it works, 2.) it's not hard to culture a drug resistant strain, and 3.) plausible deniability is there.

    I'd be greatly interested to see if the strains from all three regions were comparable. Perhaps someone is testing out a new weapon on various populaces, tinkering with it until they get it just right. Hmm. Mostly brown people are being infected (arguably, a Sicilian's Mediterranean skin color could find itself in this grouping). Interesting. And testing on a diverse set of people: Asian, Middle-Eastern, and Mediterranean / European to ensure that no individual group confers an evolutionary advantage that might stunt the plague's process if / when it is released on a worldwide scale. Perhaps they are trying to cook up an evolved Black Plague? All we need is a breakout in Africa, and someone would have a weapon to set humanity back several hundred years.

    Has anyone seen a dirigible flying around in an odd place?

     

    --
    I am John Hurt.
  32. Watching for Problem Reaction Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's all this is. Problem, Reaction, Solution. Watch for it!
    All the same shills will come out, CDC, WHO, abc, bbc, cnn, cbs, fox, pbs, nbc
    You will see the studio hens cluck cluck cluckin their way to public demand something be done.
    The solution won't be pretty. Needles and fema camps.

  33. The pitfalls of vaccine development by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    Antibiotics are a big problem with our system of commercial drug development.

    1. We've got lotsa antibiotics. Most of them are generic and cheap. Nobody wants to buy a new, expensive antibiotic until the old ones stop working. Then you want it in a hurry. But drug development takes years.
    2. New drugs only make significant money for the discoverer until they go out of patent. And much of the patent term is used up in testing before the drug even gets onto the market. So from a business point of view, it doesn't make sense to invest in developing a new antibiotic until the old ones stop working and there is a large demand (see #1)
    3. It is hard to make a lot of money from antibiotics, because they are curative--people take them only for a short time, and then they get well. If you charge enough money per dose to make back your development costs, it looks like you are profiteering on human misery. So while pharmaceutical companies may invest a bit in antibiotics, but it simply does not make a lot of business sense to invest heavily in that direction.
    4. Antibiotic development is hard, which means expensive. We think of bacteria as primitive, but in reality they are some of the most evolutionarily advanced things on the planet. They have a short generation time, so they evolve fast. Rather than primitive, they are stripped down for performance--more like the latest Formula race car than a model T. Bacteria been fighting a pitched battle with other bacteria, fungi, and viruses since before we crawled out of the ooze. They're gotten very good at offensive and defensive chemical warfare, and they are hard to hurt. Most of the stuff we've got that works, we swiped from the fungi (who also evolve fast), and maybe tweaked a bit.

    I think that what we need is a publicly funded not-for-profit vaccine development enterprise. But we have to approach it realistically, in full awareness of the pitfalls of drug discovery and the fact that often you'll spend a billion dollars developing a new drug, only to find out when you finally get it into human testing that it doesn't work very well, or else has some unanticipated horrible toxic effect.

  34. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by tibit · · Score: 1

    I don't think it's wholly necessary that the life will be more vulnerable to other stressors in presence of "all the chemicals we dump into the ecosystem". This may (or may not) be true on a smaller timescale. I'm sure there's lots of everyday stuff in our environment that would be deadly to organisms from just a few hundred million years ago... It's hard to predict how the life may adapt (or fail to). Overly pessimistic views I'd think are just as bad as overly optimistic ones.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  35. Re:The pitfalls of antibiotic development by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    Oops. Title should have been "The pitfalls of antibiotic development"

  36. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by sourcerror · · Score: 1

    Wow, you invented vaccination!

  37. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by tibit · · Score: 1

    If the "old" antibiotic is not present in the environment, then the normal mutations may get rid of the resistance without any selection pressure to the contrary. Presumably it may be a quicker process, since acquisition of resistance is very highly selected for, thus it has a high chance of "catching on" once the mutation occurs.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  38. Re:I am Jack's complete and utter lack of surprise by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I've heard about this. In particular, about them being given out like M&Ms

    I heard about that too, but it was in the good ole US of A - because patients expected them from their doctor for every sniffle. And I have a colleague who still swears by them and says the proof is that every time he gets antibiotics from his doctor he gets better within a few days.
    Ah well, but he smokes and is fat too so he won't be a burden on the health system for very long.

  39. Missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't get too scared of totally drug resistant (TDR) -- incurable -- TB strains just yet. I'm more upset that these strains were created by poor care of people who initially did not have TDR TB. The cases I've read about were all ones in which improper treatment was employed when dealing with the disease and this allowed them to essentially evolve TDR strains in these patients. Only in one or two cases was it communicated from the patient that incubated the strains to others (e.g. family members, talk about tragic!!). At least one of the patients lived with the disease for 8 years before it killed them -- and that long treatment period is exactly what enabled the evolution in the first place.

    As someone pointed out the real story here should be about misuse of antibiotics. Poverty and ignorance can greatly interfere with antibiotic treatments. Ideally starting a regimen of antibiotics should mean that the medical/social system (be it universal healthcare supplied by the government or private insurers) is so fully committed to curing that patient that the cost of the individual doses is immaterial. However that ignores reality -- many medical/social systems require (co)payment. Sometimes patients lose the ability to make those payments mid-treatment.

    Perhaps what can be done is changinge the way the medical/social system charges for antibiotics. That might mean, for example, the patient pays a fixed cost up front and does not pay by the dose. Then the medical-social system uses as many doses as necessary -- possibly losing money in some cases -- until the patient is cured. So long as tracking the average cost of complete treatment and charging accordingly is possible the medical-social system in question can come out even or with a profit.

    Finally, even if they get all the doses they need there's the situation where patients don't follow directions when taking antibiotics. There are all sorts of behavior and situations that result in this. Unfortunately there's no "deterministic" way to prevent this that also preserves basic human rights. The best we can do is battle ignorance for eternity.

  40. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I too learned initially that one should expect increased metabolic load from organisms resistant to antibiotics, and that over time resistance patterns should decrease in the absence of selective pressures.

    Unfortunately, MRSA, VRE and pan-resistant acinetobacter (and more I can't remember) are able to compete well against sensitive organisms.

    Many resistance mechanisms are naturally occurring, and enterococcus seems to be a natural reservoir for these mechanisms. Many pathogens like acinetobacter are easily competent for transformation (they will acquire environmental DNA) to get these mechanisms.

    So while we can hypothesize that there will be energetic requirements of resistance, I question how strongly this works in our favor.

  41. Is this about money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's always something with these scientists. It used to be the Swine Flu, Whipping cough, West Nile Virus, Anthrax, etc... and all these organizations demand money and grants to 'fix' these epidemics. As soon as they get their money you never hear from them about these diseases again. I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that they did their job and stopped the epidemic vs they stopped scare mongering because they finally got their money.

  42. Re:I am Jack's complete and utter lack of surprise by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

    I wonder if there would be benefit to making antibiotics that are combined with an opiate painkiller. The drugs would only be available to be taken at a hospital or clinic. The patient would need the painkiller, but returning for their antibiotic would reward them with the opiate. The final few days of antibiotic would have progressively smaller opiate doses to wind them down.

    Hmmm. So you'd require anyone taking antibiotics to become in-patients at the local hospital? They wouldn't be able to legally drive there, perhaps more than once a day, because they'd be under the influence.

    Why would they require a painkiller? I've had infections that didn't result in much, if any, pain.

    You want to "wind them down" at the end. Just how hooked would you expect someone to get with just three days of treatement? You're trying to force people to take the entire course of treatment, but the same people who would stop after three days when getting pills to take at home will stop after two days if they have to take time off work every day to drive to a hospital to get a pill.

  43. Most insureds cover their own costs and then some. by zooblethorpe · · Score: 2

    Insurance is the very definition of getting someone else to pay for you.

    I'm not sure you understand how insurance works. Whether or not insurance means getting someone else to pay for you depends entirely on how much you've paid into the system, and how much insurance payout you (successfully) claim.

    In a very simple example, if I've paid $150/mo for five years and only make one claim of $500, of which only $200 is over my deductible, the insurance company is ahead by $8,800.

    In the specific context of TB vaccinations, I rather doubt that the cost of a child's vaccination will exceed the revenue brought in by the parents' insurance payments for that month.

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  44. Read the fricking article before commenting by RandCraw · · Score: 1

    Total Drug Resistant (TDR) TB cases arose in Italy in 2007, Iran in 2009, and now in India. In the 1990s, cases of Extensively Drug Resistant (XDR) TB emerged in 58 countries with 25,000 new cases per year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensively_drug-resistant_tuberculosis

    TDR TB does not respond to any first-line antibiotics (e.g. isoniazid and rifampicin) nor second-line (e.g. levofloxacin and ciprofloxacin), which can be quite toxic in their own right. The TDR TB bug appears to be a 'new entity' which is invulnerable to the mechanisms used by any first or second line antibiotic, requiring third-line chemotherapies which promise to be yet more toxic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis_treatment

    'Third line' antibiotics are so-called because they're either ineffective, unproven, or expensive, and require close attention during treatment to avoid crippling or crippling the patient. Thus the spead of bacteria treatable only by third line antibiotics is A Very Bad Thing, especially for the 33% of the world infected with TB who also live in the Third World.

  45. New antibiotics not economic to develop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Part of the problem is that there is no real incentive to develop new antibiotics for drug companies. Its not going to be a blockbuster for them and isnt going to cover its development costs.

    95%+ of the time Penicillin V, erythromycin or metronidazole will solve the problem, so you have a very small market. You can't compete with these generics on price, they'll cost pennies.
    Secondly antibiotics are curative - One course and you are done for years or life if its only for rare infections. Much better to spend the money to develop something for a chronic disease that treats but doesn't cure or lessens symptoms.

    Its going to require a huge government backed research effort, or patents for new antibiotic drugs that are as long as music copyright.

  46. Not just in the lungs by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    Any vaccine will ruin a test for antibodies. What we need is a direct test for the bacteria.

    It lives in the lungs... FOR GOD SAKES!

    Not just there. My grandmother-in-law had a dormant colony discovered in her rectum. Whee.

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:Not just in the lungs by ae1294 · · Score: 1

      Any vaccine will ruin a test for antibodies. What we need is a direct test for the bacteria.

      It lives in the lungs... FOR GOD SAKES!

      Not just there. My grandmother-in-law had a dormant colony discovered in her rectum. Whee.

      Well some Indian had clearly blown smoke up her ass at some point in the past.

  47. Re:I am Jack's complete and utter lack of surprise by sincewhen · · Score: 1

    I was thinking they should be administered as a subcutaneous pellet like long term contraceptives. This would ensure that the entire course is taken.

    --
    -- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
  48. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by sjames · · Score: 1

    Perhaps even better, we all know how useful a parka can be for surviving in the arctic circle. Now try walking through the desert or swimming while still wearing that parka.

  49. Feather, not dot by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    Any vaccine will ruin a test for antibodies. What we need is a direct test for the bacteria.

    It lives in the lungs... FOR GOD SAKES!

    Not just there. My grandmother-in-law had a dormant colony discovered in her rectum. Whee.

    Well some Indian had clearly blown smoke up her ass at some point in the past.

    In her case, it would have had to have been a "feather" Indian, not a "dot" Indian -- she spent most of her life in Texas, and never left North America.

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  50. Ouch, what about phages? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    Your mentioning of the toxicity of 3rd line antibiotics got me thinking - what's the possibility of using a Bacteriophage*? Non-toxic, and evolves to keep up with it's target, utterly unlikely to evolve to affect humans, scales to the size of the infection, etc... I know they have to be targeted for that particular strain of bacteria, but it seems to me that it'd be a worthy effort.

    *Virus that targets bacteria, basically

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  51. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    Actually, it's not only hard, but at present, downright impossible to make such predictions. However, being pessimistic about our effect on the planet in this regard isn't really a big deal, since we already know quite certainly that we affect the environment in some catastrophically bad ways; we are, for example, currently overbooking the planet by two and a half binary orders of magnitude (i.e., six times) its ability to sustain first-world lifestyles. Only once we've got some of these more apparent and easily rectified problems under control should we allow ourselves to stop being paranoid about our impact on the world around us and reassess—while it might seem like a good idea to make sure we know exactly what our target is before marching off, we unfortunately cannot sit around twiddling our thumbs forever while waiting to do so; environmental contamination has already driven countless exotic species to extinction (one of the most prominent but least photogenic examples being the Yangtzee river dolphin), and hesitation can really only make things worse.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  52. Re:Most insureds cover their own costs and then so by gutnor · · Score: 1

    You are splitting hairs here - you take an insurance with the only goal to have somebody else pay for your problems covered by the insurance. Your reasoning that "whether or not somebody else pays depends on how much money you have paid" applies to everything that is free except for charity. Free sample at walmart: if you buy the product that wasn't really free. Free journal, if you buy something from the advertiser, that's not really free either. Free police assistance, if you use it once in your life, you have overpaid that in taxes ...

  53. Re:The pitfalls of antibiotic development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oops. Title should have been "The pitfalls of antibiotic development"

    Or rather, "The pitfalls of antibiotic development". :-)

    But we obviously get what you mean. Thanks for a very interesting and informative post. I think your idea is a good one and some debate on the topic would be great.

    (sardaukar86 posting as AC to avoid undoing mods)

  54. Travel spreads diseases by glorybe · · Score: 1

    It may be time to halt international travel. The world is made to small by high speed travel. every tourist brings risk as well as potential for an epidemic. In addition to stopping tourism and business travel I guess it would mean that wars would be by robots only. We just can't have any fun any more.

  55. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This has been discovered not to be true. Bacteria are initially less fit, but will eventually have compensatory mutations, fixing the mutation in the population.

    I dug this title off of an old pdf from when I was in undergrad, I don't know if you can find it easily, but it is from
    "Current Opinion in Microbiology 2003, 6:452–456
    This review comes from a themed issue on
    Antimicrobials
    Edited by Patrice Courvalin and Julian Davies"

    The title is:

    Persistence of antibiotic resistant bacteria
    Dan I Andersson

    There has likely been significant research since 2003, but I've not citations of it at this time.

  56. Re:That explains that weird call to customer suppo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think this comment is racist.

    No, curry-munching rice nigger, THIS is racist, you stupid black cunt. Stop being such an over-sensitive cry-baby niglet. Every time you soft-cock indian scumbags whine about racism, I kill one of your ugly dirty black shit-colored babies.

    The whole world knows what filth you maggots are, you demonstrated that with your lies when Canada kindly helped set you up with 'power-only' CANDU reactors only to have you dirty nig-nogs immediately begin producing weapons.

    Never trust a black bastard and a filthy, dirty Indian doubly so.

  57. Re:That explains that weird call to customer suppo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think this comment is racist.

    How is this racist? I'm not being a prick, I genuinely do not understand your position as the joke doesn't reference colour or culture and everyone knows India has been winning all the call-centre contracts around the world for ages now.

    I'm asking because without your side it just looks like you're seeing insults where none exist.

    (sardaukar86 posting AC because I've moderated)

  58. Govt funded universal health insurance system by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Indian Forward caste regime prefers their people to be poor/subservient/defenseless.
    Otherwise they'll vote for their conscience.
    Govt funded universal health insurance system without copayment for ~1 billion Indians in Private/Corporate hospitals costs only ~$10 billion (govt budget is ~$270 billion).
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/countrytemplate_in.html

  59. Re:I am Jack's complete and utter lack of surprise by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    You're assuming that consumption of an opiate painkiller is synonymous with "addictive". By no means all opiates (a wide FAMILY OF COMPOUNDS, HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS Damn CapsLock!) are at all addictive in vaguely credible doses, and many have significant, dangerous and unpleasant side-effects.

    That's enough to blow the idea out of the water.

    Someone else's idea below of long-duration time-release subcutaneous capsules (comparable to long-duration contraception) is more likely to be workable.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  60. Re:Most insureds cover their own costs and then so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the other hand, you don't take out insurance in order to get a "free" TB vaccine.

  61. epSos.de read on fastcompany.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There was an Italian case from as early as 2006. Fastcompany.com had written about it.

    It was a middle-class and middle-age woman who had regular TB and was treated with Antibiotics. Normal treatments failed and she was send to a special hospital near the Alps. There she became better until her TB evolved the antibiotics stopped working.

    She has been suffering for the entire treatment until departing into history.

  62. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by tibit · · Score: 1

    Agreed about overbooking. Hmm, binary orders of magnitude, never thought of these.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  63. Phage Therapy and TB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The may be a line of help with Phage Therapy - Bacteriophages or "phage" are viruses that invade bacterial cells and, in the case of lytic phages, disrupt bacterial metabolism and cause the bacterium to lyse [destruct]. Phage Therapy is the therapeutic use of lytic bacteriophages to treat pathogenic bacterial infections. Note the details about Phage therapy in the Republic of Georgia in “A Planet of Viruses”
    Read: Phage Therapy – Everything Old is New Again http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095089/
    Can J Infect Dis Med Microbiol. 2006 Sep-Oct; 17(5): 297–306. Andrew M Kropinski, PhD PMCID: PMC2095089 Copyright © 2006, Pulsus Group Inc. All rights reserved: Abstract - The study of bacterial viruses (bacteriophages or phages) proved pivotal in the nascence of the disciplines of molecular biology and microbial genetics, providing important information on the central processes of the bacterial cell (DNA replication, transcription and translation) and on how DNA can be transferred from one cell to another. As a result of the pioneering genetics studies and modern genomics, it is now known that phages have contributed to the evolution of the microbial cell and to its pathogenic potential.

  64. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    They're handy when you need to exaggerate something.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  65. Use, not just misuse. by benhattman · · Score: 1

    I see way too many comments on here suggesting that antibiotic resistance is caused entirely by misuse of antibiotics. This might be nitpicking, but that argument is not really correct. Misuse of antibiotics exaggerates bacterial evolution towards solving the problem of resisting those drugs. But, bacteria reproduce at incredible rates. Even if everyone took their antibiotics for the entire 10 day cycle (or whatever it is for a given drug), it's not inconceivable that they could spread germs midway through their treatment, and that the spread germs were among those weakened but not killed. The bacteria would still form resistance, it just might take much longer. E.g. instead of it taking say 20 years for a bacteria to develop resistance, with proper use it might take 200 years. When you consider all the lives that are bettered over that hypothetical 180 years, it's a real tragedy that people misuse drugs, but that doesn't mean bugs would stop evolving if only people were properly educated.

  66. Re:Most insureds cover their own costs and then so by lonecrow · · Score: 1

    you take an insurance with the only goal to have somebody else pay for your problems covered by the insurance.

    Wrong again. You take an insurance policy to share risk with thousands of other people. The actuarial people in the insurance company know that for every 1000 people 1 will get TB, 1 will get something and so on. So they calculate the cost of treating all the various things that can happen to that group of a thousand people based on the best stats they have, and then they divide the cost between that thousand people and add a bit for profit.

    So really its more of a buying club. Which is why it the US should have went with a public single payer health insurance company like Canada has.

  67. Re:This would be a bad time for a "Madagascar" jok by tibit · · Score: 1

    I'm glad the toilet was next door.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  68. Re:I am Jack's complete and utter lack of surprise by SydShamino · · Score: 1

    Yeah, agreed, that is a better idea.

    --
    It doesn't hurt to be nice.