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US Plummets On World Press Freedom Ranking

Jeremiah Cornelius writes "Reporters Without Borders released its 2011-2012 global Press Freedom Index. The indicators for press freedom in the U.S. are dramatic, with a downward movement from 27th to 47th in the global ranking, from the previous year. Much of this is correlated directly to the arrest and incarceration of American journalists covering the 'Occupy' protest movements in New York and across the country. 'This is especially troubling as we head into an election year which is sure to spark new conflicts between police and press covering rallies, protests and political events.' Only Chile, who dropped from 33 to 80, joined the U.S. in falling over 100% of their previous ranking. Similarly, Chile was downgraded for 'freedom of information violations committed by the security forces during student protests.'"

427 comments

  1. quick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The American government should shut down this website before the news gets out.

    1. Re:quick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why has this been modded down? This is exactly what the US has been doing: censoring public communication.

    2. Re:quick by ModMeFlamebait · · Score: 1

      It's being censored.

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    3. Re:quick by RoLi · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Wait a minute - wasn't Obama supposed to fix all that? What about all these "Jesus was also a community-organizer" - stuff?

      How is it possible that Obama's America becomes very much similar to the governments that Obama supports abroad?

      Why does Obama start more wars all around the world than Bush, yet nobody seems to care?

      Oh, and by the way, any moron who still believes that it's all the fault of R/D and that D/R would fix it: R+D are merely circus factions, both Romney and Obama are deep in the pocket of the banks, just like Bush was. And the media will do everything to prevent Ron Paul from winning.

    4. Re:quick by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      Here's how it's done in Russia. Maybe the U.S. will start following suit:

      "Slashdot has been discovered to be publshing copyrighted material and/or using pirated software. Therefore I [Putin or an underling] have sent the police to secure all their computers to ascertain if this is true. That's why they were shutdown and will remain shutdown until we can scan their machines and plant illegal software."

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    5. Re:quick by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      For the reason nobody cared when Caesar took-away the Roman Senate's power and destroyed democracy.

      Because they love the man in charge, and are willing to overlook his flaws.

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    6. Re:quick by pscottdv · · Score: 1

      Slashdot should stop giving the government mod points.

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    7. Re:quick by Gripp · · Score: 1

      I gather you are talking about bush? No one loves Obama... not even dems. And it was with Bush that all of this started in the first place. The fact that Obama has not stepped up and done anything about it - and moreover, appears to be fostering it - makes him equally guilty in my eyes. Too bad there aren't any presidential "contestants" that appear to care enough about solving these issues.

  2. "falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Meaningless metric. What matters is how many places up or down you move.

    1. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Funny

      Does falling from 27 to 47 in ranking qualify for your test of significant metrics?

      Either way, it's Springtime for Hitler!

      --
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      Never been known to fail..."
    2. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by pablomme · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Meaningless metric

      ...and incorrectly applied in any case; 47 is less than twice 27.

      What matters is how many places up or down you move.

      ...of how many total places there are - it's not the same to move down 20 positions out of 200 than 20 out of 21. Or equivalently, what % of the table you move (provided the table has not changed size due to countries being added/removed).

      But this is a very subjective topic and even these more appropriate metrics conform a rather incomplete picture of the situation.

      --
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    3. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 5, Funny

      Either way, it's Springtime for Hitler!

      Godwin in 13 minutes. Not bad for a Thursday evening.

    4. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Funny

      Godwin does NOT apply to Mel Brooks references!

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    5. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      Never seen The Producers, have you?

    6. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...of how many total places there are

      Still wrong. What matters is how much you change in the objective measure that is then sorted into a ranking. Someone else used a marathon as an example, go find and read it.

    7. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by MyLongNickName · · Score: 4, Funny

      I did an analysis and found out that the 192 countries average rank was 96.5 the same as last year. We can rest easy knowing that we held steady this year.

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    8. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...and incorrectly applied in any case; 47 is less than twice 27.

      Actually, the incorrect part is the summary.. the US fell 27 places... from #20 to #47.

      And while I will admit there is still a long way we can still fall, perhaps some of us should reflect for a moment about the countries ranked higher than we are, and how they got there, considering where they were (in general, not absolutely speaking in terms of this particular metric) not too long ago... Some of these places were the places I I heard about in school when they talked about repression and how "those commies" were trying to take over the world... Phrases like "Papers, please.... Your papers..." were practically ingrained into our social consciousness, asked of poor innocents in every movie with a scene set in one of these places... I'm extremely glad to hear they are doing so well (and that the stereotypes "may" have been exaggerated ;-) ) But I still have to ask; What the hell is happening to us? Aren't we supposed to be the shining light? Aren't we supposed to be the beacon of hope, the pinnacle of freedom? More importantly, why do so few people seem to care?

    9. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Ivoch · · Score: 2

      ...and incorrectly applied in any case; 47 is less than twice 27.

      The summary is wrong. TFA says "U.S. has dropped 27 places to 47th in the world", or from 20th to 47th. So meaningless or not, over 100% is right.

    10. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by tmosley · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Godwin's law does not apply to discussions of fascist or otherwise totalitarian regimes. Absolute statists hide behind that dodge all too often.

    11. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Ihmhi · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, only a Nazi like Hitler would do something like tha-

      Whoops!

    12. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      Bummer. And I was all set to take a cheap shot at public school math education in the U.S....

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    13. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Sulphur · · Score: 0

      Meaningless metric. What matters is how many places up or down you move.

      Like adding the halfback 20 to the fullback 40 and getting the guard 60.

    14. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Except for that one

    15. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Phil06 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Welcome class to Journalism 101

      Things don't rise, they skyrocket, they don't drop, they plummet. Cuts are always draconian, oil spews, smoke belches. Now, make sure you keep your notes for the next semester Political Science 101. Class dismissed

      --
      "...and yet, I blame society" Duke - Repo Man
    16. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'll get hate for saying it but in this case its probably an insult to the Nazis. During "Springtime for Hitler" in the mid 30s the Nazis were actually quite popular because as Hitler's bodyguard put it in the excellent BBC series "World At War" "At the time we were in a bad way, yes a very bad way. they promised us bread and jobs which seems like such a trivial thing now but then that meant a lot when you couldn't feed your family" so while the Nazis gave the boot to anybody that wasn't like them they also put the country back to work modernizing their systems whereas in America they just ship the jobs overseas or hire illegals and give you the boot. I doubt VERY seriously you'd find the US government popular with anybody but multigenerational superelite who have been making out like robber barons of old.

      I'd urge everyone to read this article that drives a stake in the "job creators and lower taxes' lie, followed by this one on corporate taxes and finally some numbers that will make you sick. They are quite a good read and will help to show why we have gotten where we are. Personally i think the elite at the top are trying to condition the public to a mindset of fear so they won't have an uprising spread if they should roll the tanks. they have already seen what the Arab Springs have done to systems that had been there for years and they know they can only juggle the numbers, lie about the true unemployment figures, and print money like there is no tomorrow for so long before the thing falls down and we become another failed country like Greece. I don't know which is worse, the thought they might actually turn the tanks on us or decide that its our turn to be the bad guys and do what Germany did to Poland in South America. But I doubt the rulers at the top of the food chain will just go without a fight, nor do i think after buying the entire congress for years they will just sit by and let the people bring fairness back into the system no matter how badly we as a nation are suffering. i think its gonna get ugly folks, really ugly.

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    17. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by evil_aaronm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If you haven't, read some of Thomas Jefferson's writings. It's shameful how far we've turned from our original ideal, embodied in the Constitution - I know, "just a god damned piece of paper!" - but he warned about just such a possibility. 200+ years can dull the senses and purpose of a country. Seems like it might be time to learn our lesson all over again.

    18. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by tapanitarvainen · · Score: 5, Informative

      perhaps some of us should reflect for a moment about the countries ranked higher than we are, and how they got there, considering where they were (in general, not absolutely speaking in terms of this particular metric) not too long ago... Some of these places were the places I I heard about in school when they talked about repression and how "those commies" were trying to take over the world... Phrases like "Papers, please.... Your papers..." were practically ingrained into our social consciousness, asked of poor innocents in every movie with a scene set in one of these places...

      Curiously, Finland remains one of those countries where there's no general legal requirement to carry identification papers or indeed even to have any - and some people actually don't. (There's presidential election going on here right now, and every now and then people come to vote without papers, and there are a number of ways they can, including bringing along someone who can testify they're who they say they are.)

    19. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by VortexCortex · · Score: 0

      That's just... well, retarded. Forgive me, I'm drunk ATM, and still found this preposterous.

      Supposing you found a cluster of EXCELLENT Freedom rated countries at the top, who gives two flying shits if you're at the top or a few marks down on the list?!? Are you dumb? What if the whole list is comprized of crapluster fuckwits who murder you just for being journalists? Then what possible metric could be derived?! Let me explain: It matters most what other countries you are grouped relatively to, and only fractionally so does it matter, for the truth of the matter is not discoverable by you Bullshit Lists and their Quanta.

      I apologize in advance for my rudeness... spelling, smelling, and overall lack of cooth.

    20. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Anzya · · Score: 1, Informative

      Curiously, Finland remains one of those countries where there's no general legal requirement to carry identification papers or indeed even to have any - and some people actually don't. (There's presidential election going on here right now, and every now and then people come to vote without papers, and there are a number of ways they can, including bringing along someone who can testify they're who they say they are.)

      Unfortunately you actually do:
      "In 2006 the directive on the right to move freely (2004/38/EC) was implemented, meaning that passportless travel is allowed in the entire European Union, if having a national identity card from an EU country. For some a passport is necessary anyway, since not all countries issue such cards for their citizens, and because Sweden requires a passport when travelling from that country to EU countries outside Schengen."
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

      So we traded away the need for a passport when traveling in exchange for needing an ID in our own countries. Congratulations...
      Now the police in Finland is probably not checking the ID of everyone but the rules are there if they would like to.

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    21. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by silentcoder · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >What the hell is happening to us? Aren't we supposed to be the shining light? Aren't we supposed to be the beacon of hope, the pinnacle of freedom? More importantly, why do so few people seem to care?

      Only two people types of people have ever said that: American politicians and American schoolteachers. Nobody else in the world has EVER thought of you that way, and frankly when us people in the rest of the world think of nations that are the epitomy of civil liberty and freedom - America hasn't even been in the top 10 in decades. The most liberal constitution in the world belongs to an African country for crying out loud.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    22. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 1

      As described there, doesn't that primarily involve border crossing? Or does it authorise the police to check anyone's origin in case someone's managed to sneak over the border illegally?

    23. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by tapanitarvainen · · Score: 2

      Nope. Finnish citizens in Finland are not required to possess any kind of identity card, and I know for a fact that many indeed do not have one at all. The text you quoted does not say a country must require or issue IDs to all its citizens, only that such a card is sufficient to travel abroad (with limitations), and while Finland does have national identity cards in the sense used in that directive, they're not issued to everybody automatically, you must explicitly request one, and it's not free (EUR 53 last I checked). Indeed most people don't have one but rather use a passport or driver's license as ID when needed - but as noted, some people don't have those either. If you don't travel abroad or drive or need to open a new bank account, you can do without.

    24. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Ok tmosley, that's it.

      Send out the jackbooted thugs!

      Oh, we don't have any. Drat.

      Let's just carry on mocking the afflicted then.

      --
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    25. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Eunuchswear · · Score: 2

      Absolutely. Anzya is paranoid. There is no EU requirement to carry papers in any member country, it's just that member countries are required to accept other countries national ID where they used to require passports.

      I'm a non-French EU resident in France and I do not need to carry any ID papers at all.

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    26. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by HopefulIntern · · Score: 4, Informative

      Mod parent up. I don't know where Americans get this idea that everyone thinks they are the posterchild for civilization. "The American" in my mind as a child was a gun-toting redneck who liked war and killing.

    27. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by DeathToBill · · Score: 2

      I... Um, I think that was what he was saying. What matters is the objective measure of press freedom, and how you performed on that; the US might not have changed at all, just 20 other countries got a whole lot better in the year. Or, as you so perspicaciously point out, if you are in "a cluster of excellent freedom rated countries at the top," that is the objective measure of freedom is good, then it doesn't matter where exactly you sit and how you move within that group.

      Still, we all do things we regret when we're drunk. Not an excuse my wife accepts, but maybe /. will be more forgiving.

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    28. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in Denmark, there are no such thing.

      There are passports - but only people who travel regularly have those, and they cost about $100 to get. And we have social security cards, but those don't have a picture, and besides, they are only for identifying to your doctor. And then there's the drivers license, but people who don't know how to drive can't get one either.

      So here, anyone asking "papers please" would be met by a blank stare. You can't ask citizens to carry what they don't have.

      Oh - and like Finland, we are in Schengen too. The ID that we are required to carry when travelling in the rest of the EU, instead of a passport, is... our passport.

    29. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by digitalsolo · · Score: 1

      This just in, people think more of their own countries than others! More at 11!

      --
      Just another ignorant American.
    30. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Of course Godwins law applies. All Godwin's law states is that as a the length of a discussion (originally USENET) increases, the probability of a Hitler or Nazi reference approaches 1. Discussions of totalitarianism just shift that curve to the left.

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    31. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by BetterSense · · Score: 3, Informative

      Or James Madison

      "I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations"

      "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

      "Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few."

      The Founders lived in a time of royalism and absolutism. Large-scale autocracies were the rule. We like to believe the age of absolute monarchs is over because they've been replaced by throne-less entities like the EU, the IMF, World Bank, and the US Federal war/welfare state. Afraid not.

    32. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by tmosley · · Score: 1

      We don't HAVE ANY!? I guess you have missed the total militarization of the police in this country, as well as the introduction of numerous new agencies with the power to detain and arrest you for no reason.

      People need to wake up to the fact that we are living in a police state.

    33. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Hatta · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd urge everyone to read this article that drives a stake in the "job creators and lower taxes' lie

      For a guy with "a double major in math and physics", he doesn't know much about presenting and interpreting data. Where's the r-squared value for those linear regression curves? There's also no reason to believe the relationship he's found is causative. If governments cut taxes in anticipation of a recession, you'd see the same sort of curves on the last chart.

      I'm no "supply sider" by a long shot. But weak data doesn't help anyone.

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    34. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Oh, that's why you're in prison being waterboarded as we speak.

      Now I get it.

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    35. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      The point is that we're supposed to be. Clearly we aren't, and haven't been for quite a while. This is a Bad Thing.

    36. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see your point, but you have to admit that when people look to migrate, the US is generally at the top of the list. I'd argue that there's a good reason for that - the US still offers the best opportunity for most migrants. (And it's usually this notion of "land of opportunity that politicians & schoolteachers are pushing.) It is possible to become an accepted part of American society in a way that is almost impossible in most parts of Europe, for example. I've lived in both the US & Europe, and I know I'd rather be an African immigrant in the US than France or Germany. You can be third generation French of Algerian descent, but you won't be considered French by much of the population. In the US, you'll be American by the second generation.

    37. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Except that they changed the scale this year. And even if they didn't your metric only makes sense if the scale is linear, which it almost certainly isn't.

    38. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      I've talked to people who thought (usually justifiably) that their home country was pretty good, but the only people I've ever heard say anything like shining light, beacon of hope or pinnacle of whatever have been Americans.

    39. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by nbauman · · Score: 2

      My hobby: Finding old cold-war denunciations of Communist tyrranny that our current American leaders now think is a pretty good idea:

      By outlawing Solidarity, a free trade organization to which an overwhelming majority of Polish workers and farmers belong, they have made it clear that they never had any intention of restoring one of the most elemental human rights—the right to belong to a free trade union. -- Ronald Reagan

    40. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by digitalsolo · · Score: 1

      That is fair enough, I am an American, and I certainly see a lot of that from other citizens also. We're certainly a long, long way from perfect, and there are a great many things we can learn from the behaviors and actions of our peers throughout the world.

      That said, I do think that the "Americans are all fat, stupid cowboys who love guns" bit from people outside of the country is just as misplaced. I disagree with a LOT of what our government does but like my country and it's people in general. I'm not fat, stupid, or a cowboy, though I do like playing with guns and things that explode from time to time.

      --
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    41. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by digitalsolo · · Score: 1

      its, not it's. Stupid cellphone auto-adjust (and stupid me, not proofreading more carefully). Perhaps I am a stupid American after all.

      --
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    42. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by u38cg · · Score: 1

      No, you don't. Learn to read. The UK is the same; you can live your entire life here without a government ID, should you choose.

      --
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    43. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

      Sounds like your press wasn't doing a very good job.

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    44. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Sport89 · · Score: 1

      Might want to mention that to the 10's of millions who immigrated to the US through Ellis Island alone. You did say "EVER".

    45. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by fyllyr · · Score: 1

      I'm just slightly concerned with the post itself. It may be a meaningless metric, but the poor individual who wrote it is apparently horrible at math. 27th to 47th place is not a 100% drop 27th to 57th would be a 100% drop (or is my math off? I haven't had much sleep in the past couple of days). I wonder if he wrote this in this way because he was trying to compare the U.S. to Chile (by placing them in the same field, that is "over a 100% drop")? Consequently, if my math is incorrect, please politely let me know. I'm not trying to be offensive, just curious.

      --
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    46. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you haven't, read some of Thomas Jefferson's writings. It's shameful how far we've turned from our original ideal, embodied in the Constitution - I know, "just a god damned piece of paper!" - but he warned about just such a possibility. 200+ years can dull the senses and purpose of a country. Seems like it might be time to learn our lesson all over again.

      Just to be completely pedantic, the last time you didn't learn your lesson; you learned the lessons of the power struggles in Europe and seceded from a country several thousand miles away by wooden sail ship. This time, the enemy is amongst you, and owns the governments in most of the "free" world. If you want to repeat history, you'll need to find a nice large plot of land and kill everyone there.

    47. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by mike1210 · · Score: 0

      I'd urge everyone to read this article that drives a stake in the "job creators and lower taxes' lie

      You don't look at how high the highest tax bracket was, because due to all sorts of loopholes, very few people actually paid the 91% marginal rate. Instead, you look at what percentage of GDP the government seizes:

      For the United States, I defined "high taxes" as the federal government taking more than 18.1% of GDP, for during the Reagan Revolution, the archetype of "voodoo economics" the largest portion of GDP taken by the federal government was slightly more than 18%. Alternatively, I defined "a high taxes period" as any period where the federal government took substantially and persistently more than 18% of GDP.

      Average growth during high tax periods was 1.08%, average growth during normal times was 2.45%. Every high tax period was a long period of economic stagnation, malaise, or decline or else contained a long period of decline. Such events were rare during normal tax periods.(Source)

    48. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Dripdry · · Score: 1

      The last article is from 2010, September. I'd be interested to see what they are saying now.

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      -
    49. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is still hyperbole unless describing a fascist or otherwise totalitarian regime that has committed the same or similar atrocities.

    50. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Nobody else in the world has EVER thought of you that way

      That's plainly not true. A lot of European immigrants sure did thought that way back in 19th century, especially Jews. A lot more of the same thought similar when they fled the wake of WW2. And in Soviet Union (and other communist countries), many dissidents did consider U.S. closest to the ideal model to emulate, even after Vietnam.

      These days, though... yeah. Not so much. Which is precisely GP's point - it used to be that way, certainly during WW2 and for some time after, and then it gradually eroded.

      The most liberal constitution in the world belongs to an African country for crying out loud.

      It matters little what a constitution actually says, if it isn't enforced. Back in 30s, the country with the most liberal constitution - the one that gave citizens most rights and freedoms - was the USSR. That was right when the political repressions peaked.

    51. Re:"falling over 100% of their previous ranking" by HopefulIntern · · Score: 1

      lol nope, Norway is very much a pro-US and pro-Israel country (except that the government occasionally questions Israel's policies, hence Anders).

  3. No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm surprised the US isn't lower.

    I don't think they'd rate a Brave New World-esque media as "free".

    http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.html

    1. Re:No shit! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In a certain sense, that's actually the alarming thing.

      The historical American press neutralization strategy rested largely on a mixture of drowning out the information with expertly crafted 'infotainment' and ensuring that the bulk of the journalists owed their paychecks and their 'access'(and often sympathized with personally) the people they were supposed to be writing about.

      Not good for highest quality journalism; but all very soft-power. Overt suppression by assorted 'security forces', of varying levels of shadiness, is quite a different strategy...

    2. Re:No shit! by Grishnakh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's most disturbing about it all is that the Obama voters still cheer him on, even though he's turning out to be much worse for human rights and civil liberties than Bush ever was.

    3. Re:No shit! by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      To be fair, the press in the joint #1 country Norway, mainly publishes PC opinion pieces and poorly translated copypasta from #28 and #47, so it's not like any of this matters at all.

    4. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's most disturbing about it all is that the Obama voters still cheer him on, even though he's turning out to be much worse for human rights and civil liberties than Bush ever was.

      This is an assertion I keep seeing here on slashdot. Could you provide some citations?

      I'm not suggesting that you're making things up but am genuinely curious.

    5. Re:No shit! by reboot246 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You must have been asleep for the last three years. Obama has wholeheartedly embraced what Bush was doing and has taken Federal powers, and thus his own, to new levels.

    6. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You must have been asleep for the last three years. Obama has wholeheartedly embraced what Bush was doing and has taken Federal powers, and thus his own, to new levels.

      Asleep maybe. I'm not in the US so I get a very general picture of what's happening over there. OTOH you simply made another assertion without citations.

    7. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So, nothing. Gotcha.

    8. Re:No shit! by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Go read the news for citations. You can start with the article in this story; it provides concrete examples of press freedoms being trampled on. On top of that, add in everything about TSA, Guantanamo Bay, stepped-up enforcement on the War on Drugs, and much more.

    9. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Shall we start with the executive order allowing the assassination of American citizens who might be doing something the government doesn't like? Or the reversal on closing GITMO?, or the expansion of the use of drones by local police departments? SOPA, PIPA, Extension of the Patriot Act, expansion of the warranties wiretapping program? Need I go on?

    10. Re:No shit! by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Informative

      Shall we start with the executive order allowing the assassination of American citizens who might be doing something the government doesn't like? Or the reversal on closing GITMO?, or the expansion of the use of drones by local police departments? SOPA, PIPA, Extension of the Patriot Act, expansion of the warranties wiretapping program? Need I go on?

      Don't forget the take over of several American industries through "stimulus" funds and the takeover of banks through TARP. Never in the history of America has the POTUS fired the CEO of a major corporation until this president came along. And, of course, let's not forget the take over of health care. There is also all the new environmental controls, unless, of course you are a union shop or big time Obama supporter. There is the backing of unions, like the Obama administration forcing Boeing to cease plans for a plant in S. Carolina because S. Carolina is not a union state (that's right! The POTUS told a private industry that they could not open a plant in S. Carolina, a red state, because it was not union friendly enough).

      Through TARP, stimulus finds and health care legislation, environmental restrictions and blind union support, the executive branch has taken control of well over half the US economy. Hell, the Boeing thing should be enough to scare the shit out of any American, but the liberals just cheer louder and louder.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    11. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Except none of that is actually the full story, but you can believe whatever Fox News tells you - that's what Jesus would want you to do.

    12. Re:No shit! by SomePgmr · · Score: 1

      Not disagreeing (hadn't heard about the Boeing thing), but wasn't TARP foisted on Ken Lewis and crew by Paulson during the Bush administration?

    13. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Gitmo wasn't his fault - it was every congressperson who didn't want terrorists in their local jails that stopped that. The proposal of SOPA/PIPA were not Obama's fault, and in fact he said he would veto the bill, which meant Congress had to get enough votes to override his veto, which is one of the things that kept it from progressing. If SOPA/PIPA had passed Congress and Obama had signed it into law, you would be correct to complain about that, but that simply did not happen. Sorry Charlie.

      The expansion of the Patriot Act happened because no congressperson wants to vote against making Amuricuh safer (TM), except possibly Ron Paul. You have legitimate beef with Obama about this, but I don't think he would get reelected if he hadn't signed it, and that is a bigger issue. The warrantless wiretapping program getting expanded simply did not happen - I do not know what planet you are from. His Justice Department did have a secret interpretation of the Patriot Act that gave them incredibly broad powers, but I would lump that under "Patriot Act" and not warrantless wiretapping.

      Now, to the point: Obama is not worse than Bush in any way, period, full stop. Bush was a complete idiot that got this country into an Iraqi war for no clear reason or exit strategy aside from the lies his administration told the American public, started the Patriot Act, started the warrantless wiretapping program, started Gitmo, increased the "Constitution-free" zones to 100 miles around every border in the US (which encompasses ~90% of the US population according to the ACLU on their website), hired a company (which then contracted illegal immigrants) to build a wall to protect us from...illegal immigrants along the Mexican border, let the oil industry police itself (remember the big BP oil spill? guess who appointed the regulator for that one?), let the banks police themselves (remember the big financial meltdown because nobody actually looked into what they were buying?), and started the bank bailouts (which were smaller than Obama's bailouts) with the sole purpose of _not_ fixing the problem and instead letting the Obama administration handle it.

      Anybody who thinks the Bush presidency was anything but a complete disaster for everybody except big business is probably either being paid off by big business or believes what they see on Fox "Fair and Balanced" News (which is paid off by big business). And that's what Obama had to deal with from Day 1. So, given that, I think Obama has done a decent job - hell, I am happy he is not just as bad as Bush, but I still think he can improve. And electing him again will allow him the political freedom to push what he wants to push because he won't be forced into following the demands of his financial backers because he won't be able to get a third term.

      And that is why I will be voting for him again. That and none of the Republican candidates are much competition in comparison.

    14. Re:No shit! by Dynedain · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't forget the take over of several American industries through "stimulus" funds and the takeover of banks through TARP. Never in the history of America has the POTUS fired the CEO of a major corporation until this president came along.

      They didn't have to take the stimulus funds. And they didn't need to engage in the problems that led to needing the stimulus funds.

      Plenty of smaller banks stayed out of the subprime and mortgage securities scam market and sailed nicely through the aftermath without needing TARP funds. Quite a few of the banks that did accept the money repaid it practically overnight so that they wouldn't have to deal with extra federal oversight.

      Ford (unlike GM and Chrysler) didn't accept the stimulus funds, and so were able to fix things their own way. If you accept huge amounts of government funding to avoid collapse, then you better expect there will be an equivalent amount of government oversight and input into how you do things. And that includes the government firing management (who were responsible for the bad decisions to begin with).

      If you're the largest shareholder in a company, you get the most say in how things are run, and who runs it. Doesn't matter if you as a shareholder are an individual, a mutual fund, a pension fund, or the government.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
    15. Re:No shit! by artor3 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I don't know if you're just horribly misinformed, or a liar, but nearly every single thing in your post is wrong. It's what's called a Gish Gallop. You rattle off so many lies that people look and say "Wow, that guy sure knows his stuff" while the honest people can't refute them all fast enough. But I'll try anyway.

      Starting from the quoted section:
      1) He didn't reverse on closing Gitmo. The Republicans blocked all funding for the transfer of prisoners elsewhere. He is literally not allowed to spend a single cent on closing the prison. You cannot blame him for that.
      2) The use of drones by police departments is a nonissue. These drones aren't carrying weapons -- they're no different from helicopters, except that they're cheaper, which is a good thing.
      3) SOPA & PIPA were opposed by Obama. You can't seriously be complaining about his support for something he didn't support. You might as well complain about his support for Al Qaeda.
      4) The stimulus funds did not "take over" any industries. Give one example. Just one. Literally, I want you to name a single American business which is now government owned because of the stimulus. Either that, or come back and apologize for lying.
      5) TARP was passed by Bush, and didn't take over banks in any case.
      6) The health care law does not take over anything. It puts some new regulations on private insurance companies, prevents individuals from abusing the system with an individual mandate, and helps individuals for whom the mandate would be burdensome by providing them with subsidies. Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh. The man is lying to you.
      7) New environmental controls? You'll need to be more specific, but I suspect this is every bit as much a lie as the rest of your talking points.
      8) Obama didn't make the decision about Boeing's plant. The National Labor Relations Board did. That's their job... to determine when businesses are retaliating against unions and block such maneuvers. The fact that South Carolina is a "red" state was irrelevant. Boeing was retaliating against their unionized workers in Washington state, and that's against the law.

    16. Re:No shit! by Ihmhi · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well for starters, we're in a State of Emergency as a country. See, Bush declared said SoE after September 11th. The National Emergencies Act exists to prevent an indefinite state of emergency (to some degree), but that's basically what's been happening. It has to be renewed every year or two and Obama has signed it every time (here's 2009, just an example). Why? Because being in a State of Emergency also grants the Executive Branch around 500 additional powers that it wouldn't otherwise have.

      So yeah, there' that.

    17. Re:No shit! by mikkelm · · Score: 2

      .. like the Obama administration forcing Boeing to cease plans for a plant in S. Carolina because S. Carolina is not a union state (that's right! The POTUS told a private industry that they could not open a plant in S. Carolina, a red state, because it was not union friendly enough).

      Wait. I was at that plant earlier today, and now you're saying that it wasn't built? Who do I talk to around here about temporal discrepancies?

    18. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Lies are lies, I only made it to #1 before I stopped reading.

      The Republicans, with a minority in House and not able to filibuster in the Senate, blocked Obama from closing Gitmo? I didn't realize the rules for Congress changed so much that not being able to stop any legislation = stopping legislation.

      Perhaps if you stopped blaming people who had nothing to do with your complaints and stopping giving passes to ones who do things would be better. As it is YOU support a party that is apparently against your own interests in issues. In other words its blatently your own fault.

      A quick view of #6 is also a lie. Having gotten cancer just after Obamacare passed, it hasn't helped me a shred. In fact all Obamacare means to me is a couple of tax increases. I can only deduct medical expenses over 7% instead of the old 4%, which means I can't deduct medical expenses. FSAs were reduced, another tax increase. My medical benefits are now taxed as income. Benefits??? None, because I am middle class taxpayer and Obama has apparently declared war on me.

    19. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It exists, but Boeing is being threatened by the NLRB over its decision to make the prudent decision of building a plant where work stoppages will not cost them millions if not billions of dollars.

    20. Re:No shit! by artor3 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Liar, liar, pants on fire :-P

      The Republicans were able to filibuster in the Senate for all but a few months. For the first several months, they made Al Franken jump through hoop after hoop, long past the point that it was obvious to everyone that he had beaten Mr. Coleman. Then, just a month later, Ted Kennedy passed away, his illness having prevented him from voting during that one month window. Paul Kirk was appointed in late September as a temporary senator ahead of the special election. Four months later, Scott Brown took office.

      That was it: a four month window during which the Democrats were focused on getting health care reform passed. For the other twenty months of that two year period, the Republicans had the filibuster, and used it at every opportunity.

    21. Re:No shit! by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      Wow ... didn't know that. (I'm not American so I have a bit of an excuse though). That's kinda ridiculous.

    22. Re:No shit! by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      You're lucky they haven't started shooting based on IQ, in which case, you'd be one of the first against the wall.

      I think you have that backwards. If they were to start shooting based on IQ, I think it would be those > +1 SD that would be the primary targets. They don't want pesky "thinkers" around pointing out their bullshit.

    23. Re:No shit! by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      You should have prefaced "FTFY" :)

      Excuse the lack of precision. I should have said "low IQ." And of course the Carlin quote used in a comment above, suggests that the Establishment doesn't want to increase education / intelligence in any way. (How would they get their toads elected?)

    24. Re:No shit! by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Informative

      4) The stimulus funds did not "take over" any industries. Give one example. Just one. Literally, I want you to name a single American business which is now government owned because of the stimulus. Either that, or come back and apologize for lying.

      Stimulus funds came with strings... no, ROPES attached and did amount to a takeover. You want an example?

      Second, stimulus dollars came with strings attached that are now causing enormous budget headaches. Many environmental grants have matching requirements, so to get a federal dollar, states and cities had to spend a dollar even when they were facing huge deficits. The new construction projects built with federal funds also have federal Davis-Bacon wage requirements that raise state building costs to pay inflated union salaries.

      Worst of all, at the behest of the public employee unions, Congress imposed "maintenance of effort" spending requirements on states. These federal laws prohibit state legislatures from cutting spending on 15 programs, from road building to welfare, if the state took even a dollar of stimulus cash for these purposes.

      Here is a story about banks either turning down TARP or leaving the program after the government started changing the rules after the money went out.

      5) TARP was passed by Bush, and didn't take over banks in any case.

      Passed under Bush, about three months before he left office. Completely administered under Obama and extended by Geitner. Geitner, btw, is the guy who didn't pay his taxes that Obama made treasury secretary. I guess you are OK with that too. Seriously, would you have been OK if Bush put a drug addict in charge of the DEA and a Klan Grand Wizard in charge of Civil Rights?

      6) The health care law does not take over anything. It puts some new regulations on private insurance companies, prevents individuals from abusing the system with an individual mandate, and helps individuals for whom the mandate would be burdensome by providing them with subsidies. Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh. The man is lying to you.

      Whoever pays the bills makes the rules. If you don't believe that, you are lying to yourself. If you think that it took over 2000 pages of "we have to pass it to know what's in it" to do nothing more than, "It puts some new regulations on private insurance companies, prevents individuals from abusing the system with an individual mandate, and helps individuals for whom the mandate would be burdensome by providing them with subsidies.", then you should not leave the house without your helmet.

      7) New environmental controls?

      Do you not watch the news? Look up the Keystone Pipeline. You'll also notice how the rejection of the pipeline helps out Obama supporters, like Warren Buffett. Obama rejecting the pipeline is also a boon for China, who will get the oil instead of us.

      Of course, there is also the strict limitations on drilling in the Gulf... or off the east or west coast or on land and especially in Alaska. We can't drill in the Gulf of Mexico, but China can for Cuba. Deep water drilling is banned in the Gulf of Mexico, but Obama funded it in Brazil. That oil and those jobs are also going to China, by the way.

      Strange. I just noticed that it seems that China is benefiting much more for Obama's environmental concerns than the actual environment is, which was my point. Obama's regulations do nothing for the environment, harm it if anything. The rejection of the keystone pipeline means that oil w

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    25. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) the president is commander-in-chief, Gimo is a military prison. He can have the inmates transfererred wherever he wants, and have all the staff removed if he wants.

      5) TARP was passed by congress. In the US he conngress makes the laws.

    26. Re:No shit! by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 3, Informative

      In what universe were the Republicans unable to filibuster the senate?

      If you'll recall, the actual 60 vote majority lasted all of a few months until Ted Kennedy fell ill. And it was only 60 by including the "independent" Lieberman. And involving something like bringing angry kids captured in Afghcanistan (or, to hear Faux News tell it, unstoppable terrorist supermen who would walk right through the walls of supermax prison), you can be sure a few Blue Dog DINOs would defect as well... which was exactly what happened.

      The real news is that the crimes committed at gitmo haven't stopped, they've just started committing them at Bagram air base instead, where there's way less pesky international observers and stuff.

    27. Re:No shit! by ArcherB · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      So, Obamacare not take over anything. It puts some new regulations on private insurance companies, prevents individuals from abusing the system with an individual mandate, and helps individuals for whom the mandate would be burdensome by providing them with subsidies.

      Um, then why are so many unions and company's opting out? Why are 20% of the waivers from Nancy Pelosi's district? Why would all these companies and unions opt out of Obamacare if, as YOU stated, it has absolutely no effect on them? What are they opting out of? Why would the government even create a waiver system if there was no point in opting out?

      The answer to all these questions:

      YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT! You tell lies while calling others liars.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    28. Re:No shit! by ArcherB · · Score: 2

      Oh, cry me a river of fucking crocodile tears, over your uber-conservative ignorant bullshit. Obama has done no such things; he's been the Unions' Uncle Tom, happily handing them everything they wanted.

      FTFY, blatant racism aside.

      Wait. Tell me again how it's us conservatives that are racist?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    29. Re:No shit! by dragonsomnolent · · Score: 1

      President may in fact be CNC, but here's the kicker, congress has the "Power of the Purse" and actually once used it, refusing to pay an entire carrier group if they didn't come back to home port. I forget when, but it was in High School Contemporary History class when I learned that.

      --
      I got nuthin
    30. Re:No shit! by artor3 · · Score: 5, Informative

      So many lies, I feel like I'm shouting into a hurricane....

      1) It's good that the stimulus funds came with strings attached. That's a heck of a lot better than just handing out money with no oversight. If these companies weren't willing to accept the strings, all they had to do was pay back the funds, or not take them in the first place. When you take out a loan, the bank isn't "taking over" your finances.

      2) Since you acknowledge that banks left the TARP program because they didn't like the attached strings, that seems to me to be proof that it was NOT a takeover. Generally you don't let people opt out of being taken over.

      3) You claim that a bill 2000 pages long is incomprehensible. Do you realize how short that is? That's less than half the length of the Harry Potter series. Even less, in terms of words, since if you've ever looked at the raw text of a bill you'd know they have huge margins and triple spacing between lines. If you think no one has read it, you're a fool. You can be sure that the Republicans went through every page with a fine tooth comb. The worst they found was the provision that allowed the sick and elderly to get a free appointment with their doctor to discuss Do Not Resuscitate Orders and the drafting of a will.

      4) The Keystone pipeline was rejected because the Republicans didn't give Obama time to thoroughly review it. They insisted on setting a short timeline, so he rejected it rather than approve it without doing the necessary research.

      5) The fact that China has poor environmental regulations doesn't mean we should follow suit. That's called a race to the bottom. If China made slavery legal, would you suggest we do the same to stay competitive?

      6) I live in Washington state. I closely followed the build up to Boeing's announcement that they were moving the 787 production to SC. It certainly seemed like retaliation, and the NLRB agreed.

      7) Your claim that all five members were appointed by Obama is laughable. You clearly just looked it up on Wikipedia, because otherwise you would know that at the time of the ruling the board had two Obama appointees, one Bush appointee, one Clinton appointee, and one vacancy. Do your homework next time.

    31. Re:No shit! by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      Because we understand what an Uncle Tom reference is, and you don't. // A Union cannot have an Uncle Tom, a corporation can.

    32. Re:No shit! by StevenMaurer · · Score: 3, Informative

      For anyone who did a TL;DR on this, the "No Strings attached" link goes to a WSJ opinion piece complaining about doling out dollars only when States are willing to pony up part of it - a practice that's well over 100 years old (and well known to save money because while anyone will take a 100% free gift, less money is spent when people have to pay a part of it). There's some whaaagarble about not being able to continue to pay for benefits after the money has run out, which is an obvious (and stupid) point to make. You don't get something if you don't pay for it. Then, there's bashing over non-transference clauses (so if you say you're going to build a road with Fed dollars, you don't switch around your budget to lower what you were going to pay for the road anyway, and use the savings to put into some lawmaker's slush fund). Again - these types of clauses are literally over a century old, so it's hardly a "string", other than a standard "do what you say you're going to do with the money" type of string.

      I'm not going to even go into the rest. It's pure partisan bullshit. It's Republican farmers who are against the Keystone pipeline, for example. They're terrified about what a leak will do to their water supply. And the President isn't getting a single vote from them.

      But look, ArcherB is going to believe what Archer B wants to believe, no matter what. When someone decides to believe something, there's not a single fact that's going to keep them from doing so.

    33. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um wow.. I think you haven't been paying attention.

      see back in 2010 a bunch of Idiots who liked Tea and got funded by some brothers who made their money through COKE.. put out a bunch of crap in the media that a bunch of people who had IQ's lower than 50 ate up and elected a bunch of ass hole republicans and Tea tards into Congress, giving the GOP the Majority and some guy name Bohener who is a completely useless retard for hire as speaker of the house.. Upon his appointment his self appointed Mandate was to "Make sure Obama was a one term president" and now it looks like these idiots have tried to do just that and failed, because the republican candidates in the presidential primary could be so bad as to be looked at by history as the head of Obama's Re-election campaign. Obama cannot get anything done with a Congress like this because the GOP has this dumb assed idea that if they grind American productivity, freedoms and the quality of our way of life as well as everything the president tries to accomplish, straight into the toilet during the last 2 years of Obama's first term , the any republican candidate, including someone as Dumb as Palin or Bachman could argue "How bad could it be if I were president, Obama got nothing done in his first four years!" but the republicans have failed, the American public is not nearly that stupid, just sometimes easily led. The people have realized that the republicans want to enslave the American public and turn them into mindless worker drones to fund and build their world dominating war machine.99.999999% of the shit Obama is being blamed for is shit that was caused, chapter and verse by the overindulgence, lack of planning, greed and inaction by the George W Bush administration over the last 8 years, Iraq and 9-11 are no excuse, rhetoric does not excuse what happened happened and now Obama is being blamed for it despite having done unprecedented amazing genius things to fix it.. We have not lost our freedoms so badly yet that we cannot step up and vote and take it all back in a heartbeat.. that is the beauty of our country, our culture and our system of government.

      in short, A vote for Obama is a vote for the American way, for freedom and for Peace.

      The parent is totally wrong and full of shit. IF you don't believe me read this post again.
      Voice of Reason

    34. Re:No shit! by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Literally, I want you to name a single American business which is now government owned because of the stimulus.

      At this second? None I'm aware of. However, you cannot deny that they took over GM after they ran themselves into the ground (can't let those union workers end up unemployed - better to bend over the rest of the American people and shove the union picket signs up their ass), then the truly horrific thing is that they then gave GM MORE taxpayers money (from TARP funds) to "pay back" the "loans" that they used to keep from going bankrupt. Then to put the icing on the shit filled cake, GM then spent taxpayers money to make commercials lying about how they'd paid off their loans because they were so profitable.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    35. Re:No shit! by StevenMaurer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We elect Presidents in the U.S. Not dictators. The fact that you don't understand, or are unwilling to admit, how powerful Congress is, and how dysfunctional they've become, is the real source of your sickness.

    36. Re:No shit! by Entropius · · Score: 1

      So why doesn't the President do his job and play hardball? "Fine, you won't let me close Gitmo, I'll veto all military funding until you do."

    37. Re:No shit! by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's always struck me as odd how people can be so vigilant about 1984 but not a brave new world. I don't understand people who spend all their time worrying about big government, but think big business is a good thing. Same goals: taking your rights and your money. Same people even. Business becoming the government is okay, but somehow government regulating business is evil socialism.

    38. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes and no. The major newspapers like Aftenposten, VG and Dagbladet are just glorified blogs with horrendous web-design at this point and they are barely above the more "coloured" german supermarket tabloids who weekly speculate about celebrity pregnancies and UFO sightings. Think Daily Mail but with the fascist diatribe replaced with celebrity news and "shocking" revelations about whatever the big story du jour is.

      Even so, every once and again they do publish stories you would not expect to see in mainstream media publishing. I don't work in any of them but I know people who do and from the outside they look like commercial whores who get lucky with a story now and again. From the inside they look more like people who really want to do investigative journalism but are forced by tightening markets and increasing salaries to spew out "PC opinion pieces" as you call them.

      It's also worth noting that the Norwegian notion of politically correct is not so much about not offending anyone (the mentioned newspapers do that regularly) but about not being -hateful- towards anyone. Thus, you won't find wishy-washy euphemisms that are painfully PC like replacing "midget" with "little person" but you will find stories where the material itself could be construed as "offensive" or "insensitive" but not hateful.

      We also have a number of smaller and local papers that -do- engage in proper old-fashioned investigative journalism and criticize the state and/or private institutions even-handidly. From your comment, you seem like a cynical person who easily hates whatever you perceive as popular with sound-bite dismissals because that is what cynical and contrary people do but you really are wrong if you want to suggest that the Norwegian press isn't considerably more free than what you will find in a number of other western nation. To further claim that none of this matters is being short-sighted and charmingly naive.

    39. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can blame Obama.

      If, to pick one of your points, for example, he's unable to close Gitmo even though Gitmo goes against so many laws and basic principles, and is basically terrorism by itself, he should make a statement by resigning: "I no longer want to be a president for a country that [and then explain why he's powerless to close the terrible Gitmo]."

      Agreed?

    40. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So because he didn't start some of these programs, he is excused because he only extended them? Interesting.

    41. Re:No shit! by Sri+Ramkrishna · · Score: 1

      Really? Are you mad? You're saying that the president should pass a bill such that our soldiers won't get paid? Their families depend on that money to make ends meet. The optics alone would screw Obama over much less hte real damage it would do to military famiiles.

    42. Re:No shit! by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Which is what the Left told the Right would happen. But did those idiots listen?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    43. Re:No shit! by dave420 · · Score: 1

      He's started fewer wars, though...

    44. Re:No shit! by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      Sure, it's a bit more complicated than can be expressed with a single-sentence sarcasm, but the point still remains: even with the a press free from government interference and mafia harassment, there's no guarantee of quality journalism.

    45. Re:No shit! by Terrasque · · Score: 1

      The irony is that NRK (the Norwegian government-owned radio and television public broadcasting company) is the nation-wide media doing (imho) the best job, being critical and covering a wide variety of cases from different angles.

      For an example, look at DLD (norwegian DRD) coverage, NRK was just about the only media discussing it. Others media either ignored it, or uncritically posted statements from politicians arguing for it.

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    46. Re:No shit! by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Because we understand what an Uncle Tom reference is, and you don't. // A Union cannot have an Uncle Tom, a corporation can.

      It would be one thing to call someone an "Uncle Tom" and have no idea what it means. But to fully understand all the ramifications of it and STILL use it as an insult to a black man is what makes you, and people like you textbook cases of racists. The sad part is that you really don't see it and run around calling others racists.

      I know what "Uncle Tom's Cabin" is and what the reference means. That's exactly why I won't use it. Would you say of a lucky Jewish person, "Wow! You just made Schindler's list!"?

      Oh, the only differences between a corporation and a union how they get their money. A union takes it from its members, and if possible, even it's non-members. A corporation has to convince customers to give it to them in exchange for a product. Both have the same goal, however: Support the men at the top. So unions certainly can own an Uncle Tom. They are called "workers" and they are slaves to the union bosses. Corporations pay their workers. Unions take the money like a pimp or plantation owner.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    47. Re:No shit! by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Oh, and can you give me one case where Obama sided with a corporation over a union? Just one?

      The it appears I was 100% right! Obama serves the unions, not the corporations.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    48. Re:No shit! by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      You will find the progressive left treats Uncle Tom Obama the president who failed to prosecute some of the worst corruption in the US Administration in history.

      Do not confuse what mass media presents as the progressive left with what is actually the progressive left. Tell me have you heard the cheers for failing on universal health care.

      Of course the US has to grades of reporting the embedded media, whose job is to create the masquerade of corporate correct advertising as news and independent media (those who routinely get arrested, beaten, pepper sprayed and, their equipment confiscated).

      Not to forget it is not press 'Freedom' to deliver PR=B$ (lies for profit advertising) as the news, regardless of what the political right thinks and that includes Uncle Tom who is so far out the right that he no longer recognises universal health care as a political centre policy.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    49. Re:No shit! by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Cool story bro.

    50. Re:No shit! by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      By "prudent decision" you mean "punitive action to keep the unions in line".

    51. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an assertion I keep seeing here on slashdot. Could you provide some citations?

      This is perhaps the most disturbing. This suggests you keep your head in a hole in the ground. Obama has violated federal law is responsible for the death of many US and Mexican citizens, all in an effort to create yet another unconstititonal anti-second amendment law. It worked even though he was busted.

      Obama and his administration ACTIVELY covered up the world's largest financial scam in the history of mankind.

      Obama signed into law, violating the US Constition, indefinate incarseration sans due process.

      This is all just the tip of the iceberg. Seriously, if you don't know why Obama is far, far worse than Bush on a bad day, you're trying very hard to not know.

      And Obama isn't even alone int he administration. Hell, if Mrs. Clinton is supposed to be in federal prision but she managed to buy off a judge. If you had committed the crimes she did, literally, you would be rotting in a federal prison right now.

    52. Re:No shit! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      You claim that a bill 2000 pages long is incomprehensible. Do you realize how short that is? That's less than half the length of the Harry Potter series.

      First of all, it was several Democrat Congresspeople who claimed that the Obamacare bill was incomprehensible. It was Nancy Pelosi who said that, "We have to pass this bill so that you can find out what is in it." Another Democrat said the idea of reading every bill before voting on it was ludicrous because a Congressmen would need a team of lawyers to understand what it said (this was during the Obamacare debate).
      Next, you say that a single bill 2000 pages long is not very long because it is less than half the length of a seven book series? How about we compare it to War & Peace?
      As to the Boeing case, how can deciding to build a new plant and hiring new workers be retaliation against people who Boeing was continuing to employ? In addition, Boeing was actually expanding the number of people employed at those unionised plants in Washington state. It was just that they felt the history of the union going on strike every couple of years made it a bad idea to open a plant for a new aircraft that was meant to compete with a plane from Airbus that was already on the market. Do you have any idea how badly the threat of a strike would hurt Boeing's attempt to get orders for this new, unproven aircraft? Were you aware that the union made the complaint to the NLRB after the workers at the South Carolina plant voted the union out? When Boeing first started the plant, the workers voted in the union, then shortly after it opened they voted the union back out. There is no evidence that Boeing management had anything to do with the workers in South Carolina rejecting the union (if there were there would have been mention of it in the complaint).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    53. Re:No shit! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      That is because Big Government is how Big Business gets to be big business. When government power expands so does corporate power. The best way to reduce corporate power is to reduce government power.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    54. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's just one component of civil liberties, but the number of whistle-blower prosecutions by the Obama administration seriously disturbs me. Remember, this is the guy that promised a new level of transparency in government.

      What happened to “look forward, not backward”?:
      http://www.salon.com/2010/04/15/prosecutions_10/

      What the Whistleblower Prosecution Says About the Obama DOJ:
      https://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/04/16-3

      Stop the Criminal Prosecution of Whistleblowers!:
      http://www.whistleblowers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=731&Itemid=81

      WikiLeakers and Whistle-Blowers: Obama's Hard Line:
      http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058340,00.html

      Obama Admin: Immunity for Torturers, Prosecution for Torture Whistleblowers:
      http://2politicaljunkies.blogspot.com/2012/01/obama-admin-immunity-for-torturers.html

    55. Re:No shit! by microbox · · Score: 1

      We elect Presidents in the U.S. Not dictators. The fact that you don't understand, or are unwilling to admit, how powerful Congress is, and how dysfunctional they've become, is the real source of your sickness.

      Nah, he's suffering from delusional paranoid politics. It's the confirmation bias, mixed with emotional immaturity and partisanship. Just the type of thing that nautrally creates rigid hierarchies capable of warfare. There's a whole bunch on these people on the left, and a Jesus pile (literally) on the right.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    56. Re:No shit! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Elect someone, things get worse, vote for him again!

      Meanwhile third parties continue to flounder. You IDIOTS don't realize that R and D are the fucking same, and your INABILITY to process that has destroyed this country.

      Thanks.

    57. Re:No shit! by WankersRevenge · · Score: 1

      I don't know ... your post reads like an excuse and an apology for the guy. As far as I'm concerned, if the guy signs an extension of the Patriot Act, then he takes ownership of it. If he couldn't rally congress to shutdown gitmo, then he takes ownership of that. If the guy orders the assassination of an American citizen, well, you know the rest. Your justifying his failures when you should be holding him accountable to them.

      And comparing him to Bush does no one any favors. It's like trumpeting your D- as a major accomplishment because the guy next to you got an F.

      If people did hold their representatives accountable to them, then these politicians would hesitate to make stupid ass choices for fear of getting thrown out (their greatest fear). And this means in practice not being afraid to lose an election by either nominating an "unelectable" candidate who at least - voting wise - is consistent with your party's beliefs, or voting third party. You gotta sacrifice the present for a better tomorrow. If not in your life, at least your children's life.

    58. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you admit he either is incompetent, ignorant, or had no power to do anything and you still think he is doing a good enough job to vote for again. Which one is it? I don't think you clearly understand what a President does or has power to do.

      Obama IS Bush v2.

    59. Re:No shit! by Xacid · · Score: 2

      it was every congressperson who didn't want alleged terrorists in their local jails that stopped that

      FTFY.

    60. Re:No shit! by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      Gitmo wasn't his fault - it was every congressperson who didn't want terrorists in their local jails that stopped that.

      Agreed, but a real leader would have pointed out that this (local jails/courts) was exactly the right place for these alleged criminals. An in-custody prisoner is no longer a significant threat. Someone accused of a crime belongs in the criminal justice systems, not some neocon's wet dream like Gitmo.

      The expansion of the Patriot Act happened because no congressperson wants to vote against making Amuricuh safer (TM), except possibly Ron Paul. You have legitimate beef with Obama about this, but I don't think he would get reelected if he hadn't signed it, and that is a bigger issue.

      So principle takes a back seat to political expediency. Again. Sorry, but I'd prefer a leader who comes out, long and loud, for the rights of the citizens he was elected to represent. You know, someone who's willing to take point and yeah, maybe take fire but also leading the way for those behind him who would love to come out and admit what a chickenshit, knee-jerk mistake was the Patriot Act.

    61. Re:No shit! by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Gitmo wasn't his fault - it was every congressperson who didn't want terrorists in their local jails that stopped that.

      Bullshit. He had plenty of time in his first two years to push that through Congress. He apparently didn't think it was very important.

      You have legitimate beef with Obama about this, but I don't think he would get reelected if he hadn't signed it, and that is a bigger issue.

      Right, the big issue here is that both parties are using fear to get reelected. The fact that you can't make honest arguments and expect to get elected is the big issue. Far bigger than whether a democrat or republican holds office in 2013.

      Anybody who thinks the Bush presidency was anything but a complete disaster for everybody except big business

      Bush was a complete disaster for everybody except big business (and Africans with aids btw). But so is Obama.

      And electing him again will allow him the political freedom to push what he wants to push because he won't be forced into following the demands of his financial backers because he won't be able to get a third term.

      Elections are when the people exert the tiny bit of influence they have. If Obama doesn't have to face another election, he doesn't have to keep the people happy and he can do whatever his corporate masters want. What reason is there to believe that anything else would happen, besides wishful thinking?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    62. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who are you voting for?

    63. Re:No shit! by pscottdv · · Score: 1

      Ford (unlike GM and Chrysler) didn't accept the stimulus funds, and so were able to fix things their own way. If you accept huge amounts of government funding to avoid collapse, then you better expect there will be an equivalent amount of government oversight and input into how you do things. And that includes the government firing management (who were responsible for the bad decisions to begin with).

      If you're the largest shareholder in a company, you get the most say in how things are run, and who runs it. Doesn't matter if you as a shareholder are an individual, a mutual fund, a pension fund, or the government.

      So then why did the white house tell Ford to stop running TV ads talking about how they didn't take government money? Why does the white house get to veto the advertising policy at a company that DIDN'T take government money?

      --

      this signature has been removed due to a DMCA takedown notice

    64. Re:No shit! by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Hm. None of these seem like human rights or civil liberties violations.

    65. Re:No shit! by nbauman · · Score: 1

      There were some polls at Occupy Wall Street. Most of them voted for Obama. They're now split 50/50 for and against Obama.

      There were references in the Wikipedia article on Occupy Wall Street and in a New York Magazine article.

      The main reason for their disenchantment with Obama was that he brought into the White House all the Wall Street people who were responsible for the crash, like Larry Summers, and Obama's policies have been to support Wall Street. I don't understand finance that well, but the best articles I've seen about that were by Matt Taibi, who writes for Rolling Stone. His interview with Bill Moyers was very good.

      Another reason for disenchantment with Obama is health care; that he promised single payer and gave us subsidized private insurance (which costs about twice as much). The Obama health plan is actually modeled on a Heritage Foundation plan. Rahm Emanuel called the progressives who wanted the public option "fucking retarded".

      The Republicans are doing their part to help get Obama re-elected by offering candidates who are raving lunatics. If I didn't know better I'd think they were working together.

    66. Re:No shit! by phlinn · · Score: 1

      It's kind of sad that it took me a few lines to realize this must be satire. It sounds almost like what some of the Obama uber-partisans will spout, but it's just over the top enough to reveal itself.

      If it's not satire, let me know, so I can go weep quietly for my country.

      --
      "Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
    67. Re:No shit! by phlinn · · Score: 1

      That depends. Did we start the war with afghanistan, or just strike back? They explicitly supported the group that attacked us.

      Stipulating that we started the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and that they are in fact separate wars not just different battlefields in the same war, his term isn't over yet but he seems likely to be better on that metric.

      --
      "Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
    68. Re:No shit! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      If Ron Paul doesn't make it, then I vote Libertarian, but I would take damn near any third party over "1st tier" R or D candidates. I would prefer a principled, proven candidate like Paul or Kusinich over a neophyte from a third party, but a random guy off the street would do a better job than most R or Ds, as they at least haven't been corrupted.

    69. Re:No shit! by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

      Yea, we elect politicians. Who turn around and say that the ideal or even slightly better world they proposed has become impossible due to unexpected events, rarely is the arguement that it's for the people (or that the people would lose faith in government if they did or didn't do something) but rather for some shadow group that "knows better". Where knowing better is: Providing safety, generating more income, securing power just in case.

      Where does the buck stop?

    70. Re:No shit! by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Obama has continued and expanded many of the Bush era policies, such as: Indefinite detention without access to council, the assassination of people, including US citizens, without charge or trial, warrantless surveillance of communications and internet usage, and the continued use of the prison in Guantanamo Bay. All of this is easily verifiable by using the Google, so I'm not going to bother digging up links.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    71. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you not watch the news? Look up the Keystone Pipeline. You'll also notice how the rejection of the pipeline helps out Obama supporters, like Warren Buffett [forbes.com]. Obama rejecting the pipeline is also a boon for China, who will get the oil instead of us.

      It boggles my mind that people think the Keystone pipeline would mean cheaper oil for the US. Do they really, rationally believe the reason they want a direct pipeline to a major sea port is so they can load up a tanker to sail around Florida and sell it back to the US?

      Those tankers are going to the highest bidder, and you will have subsidized the oil companies getting it onto the tanker so you're buying power can be pitted against any buying power anywhere in the world. The Keystone pipeline means more expensive oil for the US, not cheaper.

    72. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3) You claim that a bill 2000 pages long is incomprehensible. Do you realize how short that is? That's less than half the length of the Harry Potter series. Even less, in terms of words, since if you've ever looked at the raw text of a bill you'd know they have huge margins and triple spacing between lines. If you think no one has read it, you're a fool. You can be sure that the Republicans went through every page with a fine tooth comb. The worst they found was the provision that allowed the sick and elderly to get a free appointment with their doctor to discuss Do Not Resuscitate Orders and the drafting of a will.

      Holy...seriously? You're calling a *2000* page bill short? Let's see:

              The average statute passed by the 109th Congress—the latest session for which figures are available—clocked in at around 15 pages

      15 pages. And you call a 2000 page bill short? Do you have any idea how many loopholes and unnecessary crap is in that bill? Any bill that requires 2000 pages has been bloated beyond all belief or is hiding a large number of intentional loopholes and shelters for privileged (read, corporate sponsors) members of the legislative process. I am utterly flabbergasted at the thought process that had to go into creating the argument that this was short. Comparison to a novel? A freaking *novel*??

      2000 pages isn't short. It isn't big. It isn't even large. It's massively huge.

    73. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because despite being the more prescient bit of crystal ball gazing, BNW didn't get nearly as much attention in the press or society at large. That's primarily because it didn't fit in well with the narrative of democracy/capitalism's fight against the oppression of communism.

    74. Re:No shit! by fyllyr · · Score: 1

      If it makes you feel any better, I am against big brother and big business. I just want those who have the need to exercise power (for power's sake) to leave me alone.

      --
      You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.- Nietzsche
    75. Re:No shit! by Experiment+626 · · Score: 1

      You talk about how "short" and comprehensible the Obamacare bill was. It was rammed through the House in 9 days (does anyone really study 2000 pages of legalese that quickly?) and then went through the Senate and reconciliation process over 4 months and was signed into law. Obama even set aside his campaign promise about waiting five days before signing bills because he decided doing the necessary research before signing major legislation was not important.

      Then in your very next point you talk about how rejected the Keystone pipeline because of the "short timetable". A pipeline proposal that had been going around for three years is too hasty for him, but he needs like five minutes to study health care legislation? Really, that's what you're going to go with?

    76. Re:No shit! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      2) The use of drones by police departments is a nonissue. These drones aren't carrying weapons -- they're no different from helicopters, except that they're cheaper, which is a good thing.

      While this is technically correct, the line of thinking that a cheaper, easier new approach to surveillance is OK because it could have been done by traditional means less stealthily and at much greater cost should not be defended.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    77. Re:No shit! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I always thought the same thing, I have to wonder if libertarians read 1984 and think "OMG living in this world would be horrible!" and then read Snow Crash and think "OMG living in this world would be awesome!"

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    78. Re:No shit! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Given the opportunity, my first use of an fMRI lie detector would be to find out once and for all if libertarians actually believe this, or if it's just a lame attempt to appeal to leftists.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    79. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd argue that it's more nuanced than that. Reducing government power in some areas would certainly help, but in others, such as employee safety, things may not go so well. Unions may help to some extent, but it's hard to say where that may lead.

    80. Re:No shit! by SomePgmr · · Score: 1

      Where did that come from? I didn't say anything like that.

    81. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The real news is that the crimes committed at gitmo haven't stopped, they've just started committing them at Bagram air base instead,

      If true, that means Command-in-Chief Obama is responsible, and should stop it.

    82. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it's all about the republicans. Always. No matter what.

      Keep drinking the koolaid, dipshit.

    83. Re:No shit! by Dripdry · · Score: 1

      You hit a very interesting point, but an unexpected one. You mentioned King Rahm and his "fucking retarded" comment.

      I've met a few people that were in high places in D.C.: a couple politicos, a couple economic guys. EVERY SINGLE ONE was an asshat of the most incredible order imaginable. Now, it was little ol' me they were talking to, so they're weren't on their best behavior. Ask them a question about something, ask them to clarify or to expand on what they'd just said, and they act as if you've stabbed them in the eye with a pencil. Total childishness. They see themselves as geniuses, as so far above everyone else that NO OTHER IDEAS could possibly be correct, or even in the same reality as correctness. They act (Godwin) like Arians, the superior race, and all must bow before their Clearly Superior Intellect.

      It's terrifying to behold, and I suspect there are many more of them in Washington. It would explain a LOT about why our country is so fucked up right now.

      --
      -
    84. Re:No shit! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I take it that you do not see the connection between increased government power and increased corporate power. Let me ask you a question, do corporations have greater power today than they did in the 1950s? Second question, are there more or less government regulations of business today than there were in the 1950s?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    85. Re:No shit! by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

      Because in 1984, we get rats on our faces. Brave New World, we get mandatory drugs and promiscuous sex. RATS ON OUR FUCKING FACES vs. Sex, Drugs (Rock n' Roll optional). You really have to ask why people are deathly afraid of one and (at best) Meh about the other?

      --
      ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
    86. Re:No shit! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I'll admit, there's a correlation. Just like the correlation between pirates and global warming.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    87. Re:No shit! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Oh! Oh, BTW, how do you explain the gilded age with this theory?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    88. Re:No shit! by theantipop · · Score: 1

      Do me a favor and extend your hypothetical back to the 1800s and see how it changes your hypothesis.

    89. Re:No shit! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I fail to buy into the typical interpretation of the gilded age as an age when big business ran everyone's lives. I have found that when one actually examines most historical time periods that are used to justify expansive government power, one generally finds that they do not actually support the argument being made.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    90. Re:No shit! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      OK, were corporations more or less powerful in the 1880s than they are today? Were there more or fewer government regulations of businesses in the 1880s than there are today? I believe that in both cases the answer is more today.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    91. Re:No shit! by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

      [Afghanistan] explicitly supported the group that attacked us.

      No. If anyone, the Taliban did. And "[they] gained diplomatic recognition from only three states: Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates."

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    92. Re:No shit! by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      TARP isn't entirely Obama's baby. However, it was created by Congress, starting during the Bush administration. Democrats don't like anyone to remind anyone of this next fact, but the fact is that Democrats were controlling Congress during Bush's last two years, and are wholly responsible for TARP. Obama came along later and joined in with his Democrat buddies in jerking off their corporate buddies in the finance industry.

      In a nutshell, the Democrats were elected in big numbers in 2006 because the public was pissed off with Bush, his crappy policies, his wars, and his ineptitude. They wanted change for the better. The Democrats didn't deliver; they delivered more of the same. Believing naively that the problem was that they still had a Republican in the white house, the public then elected Obama, who promised "hope" and "change", thinking that with a majority of Dems in Congress and one in the WH (and an unknown black one at that, rather than a Washington insider like Hillary), that we'd finally get some real change for the better. What happened? Nothing changed, in fact things got worse.

      The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Obviously, electing Republicans like Bush and his neocons isn't the answer; we already saw what a disaster that was. And obviously, blindly electing Democrats isn't the answer either, because they've proven themselves to be just as bad. I think we'll probably get another neocon Republican President next year; the peoples' memories are extremely short and they just can't think beyond two choices.

    93. Re:No shit! by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

      Oh, shit. Boys, seems like we got us here a 100%, dyed-in-the-wool, drank the Kool-Aid, free-market liberal here.

      Now, it may be that an INDIVIDUAL exchanges a product for fair compensation. It may even be that a BUSINESS does so. But a CORPORATION.

      This boy ain't been reading Warren Buffet. This boy don't know what a CORPORATION is.

      According to Mr. Buffet, a CORPORATION is a CASTLE with a MOAT AROUND IT.

      That means a CORPORATION is not a "FREE MARKET EXCHANGE." A CORPORATION does everything it can, to defend its unique position and destroy the competition-- "fair" or not.

      That means the essense of a CRPORATION is EXPLOITATION. If a CORPORATION can double its PROFIT by poisoning the water, murdering its workers or competitors (and get away with it), or by fucking the customers who use its product up the ass-- well, more's the better for the CORPORATION. That's what it is there to do.

      A CORPORATION is by definiton a false life, a FRANKENSTEIN, an ABOMINATION against nature.

      And the ideological fools who think this is some wonderful, best-of-all-possible-worlds "free market?" Damn, they sure are niggers.

      Not to mention, the first people who will be against the wall when the REVOLUTION COMES.

    94. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And electing him again will allow him the political freedom to push what he wants to push because he won't be forced into following the demands of his financial backers because he won't be able to get a third term.

      Except for the demands from industry he will be a high paid lobbyist for after he leaves.

    95. Re:No shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Initially he was against SOPA/PIPA, but Obama changed his mind and decided he would sign the bill that passed at the last minute. That's what panicked everyone. He's a piece of shit that has given back none of the oppressive powers that Bush took for the Executive branch, and has piled on a couple more in the process. I will possibly vote for him since the Republicans seem even worse, but I don't do so believing anything has been "not his fault" or that he's been doing the right thing to protect our freedoms.

      He's just another corporate-sponsored authoritarian tool.

    96. Re:No shit! by Entropius · · Score: 1

      See, people who actually do productive work for a living sometimes get told "There's no more money, we can't pay you any more. Sorry, go find a new job."

      For this to happen to a hundred thousand soldiers would be just the same thing as happens to lots of civilians every year.

    97. Re:No shit! by gmanterry · · Score: 1

      The problem with the American press, including print and broadcast media, is that it is all owned by a handful of huge companies. We are fed the same drivel simultaneously by both print and broadcast media to the extent that we soon believe it is all true. Even when it is really biased.

      --
      Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
  4. "I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Memorable quotes for
    Looker (1981)
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082677/quotes

    "John Reston: Television can control public opinion more effectively than armies of secret police, because television is entirely voluntary. The American government forces our children to attend school, but nobody forces them to watch T.V. Americans of all ages *submit* to television. Television is the American ideal. Persuasion without coercion. Nobody makes us watch. Who could have predicted that a *free* people would voluntarily spend one fifth of their lives sitting in front of a *box* with pictures? Fifteen years sitting in prison is punishment. But 15 years sitting in front of a television set is entertainment. And the average American now spends more than one and a half years of his life just watching television commercials. Fifty minutes, every day of his life, watching commercials. Now, that's power. "

    "The United States has it's own propaganda, but it's very effective because people don't realize that it's propaganda. And it's subtle, but it's actually a much stronger propaganda machine than the Nazis had but it's funded in a different way. With the Nazis it was funded by the government, but in the United States, it's funded by corporations and corporations they only want things to happen that will make people want to buy stuff. So whatever that is, then that is considered okay and good, but that doesn't necessarily mean it really serves people's thinking - it can stupify and make not very good things happen."
    -- Crispin Glover: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000417/bio

    "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, CIA Director

  5. It's kind of ironic... by Liam+Pomfret · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...that the US would plummet on World Press Freedom rankings given that Fox News literally won the right in court to lie to its viewers.

    1. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First, that's not ironic, especially since the events are not even in the same time period.

      Second, that's actually an important right -- because it does prevent government suppression of "untruth" as defined by the government. (Yes, I'm fully cognizant that the case was about untruth as defined by the very people saying it, not by the gov't, but protecting the former protects the latter.)

      However, it's insanely depressing that so many people would continue to watch a "news" channel that had to fight that battle.

    2. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      ...that the US would plummet on World Press Freedom rankings given that Fox News literally won the right in court to lie to its viewers.

      And nobody on any of the other "news" channels does. Ok. Most people would realize that it doesn't take a court ruling to allow a news channel to lie, so I'm wondering why you think it is significant that Fox News might have one (and "citation needed").

      What's most fascinating is that people are buying the "statistic" that no other country has dropped more than 100% of its ranking. What kind of goofy stat is that? Moving from 1 to 3 would be dropping 200%, but nobody would consider that really that bad. It's meaningless to use that as a stat, but it sounds really really bad, doesn't it?

    3. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Just+Another+Poster · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ...that the US would plummet on World Press Freedom rankings given that Fox News literally won the right in court to lie to its viewers.

      Untrue. The reporters employed by the Fox affiliate in question were not told to lie, they were told to give the opposing side of the story. Furthermore, the court ruled that the plaintiffs had no case because the Fox affiliate broke no laws, not that Fox News could lie to its viewers.

    4. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Mashiki · · Score: 1, Informative

      Boy people still go on with that shit huh? So tell me something. There's this murder trial going on up here in Canada, in Ontario, in a city called Kingston. Heard of it? Maybe. It was on CNN today. Did you know that the only media outlet that's printed that they're muslim in the US was fox? Every media outlet, including the CBC in Canada printed that. It's like the majority of the media you guys have, fears printing the truth. Or they're afraid that telling you the truth about people is a bad thing.

      Hey did they tell you that there was a bomb threat there today? Well most of them didn't, they just told you that it was evacuated because of a 'security' concern. But the police briefing to the media stated a bomb threat.

      I can cite example after example, I'd say it's more a specific problem of political correctness trumping freedom of the press, and very few people standing up to it. Hell, you even see that during the WH press briefings, well if you ever watch them unedited.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    5. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      However, it's insanely depressing that so many people would continue to watch a "news" channel that had to fight that battle.

      What's insanely depressing is that anyone would think that any "news channel" would have to fight that battle, or that not "fighting that battle" by a channel proves anything.

    6. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      So I see you watch Fox News...

    7. Re:It's kind of ironic... by artor3 · · Score: 2

      Who the fuck cares?

      It's a murder. We have hundreds of them every year. We have people get killed over domestic disputes, gang fights, muggings gone bad. We've got crazy parents killing their kids. We've got political crazies killing people they've been told to hate. We've got more murders than we know what to do with.

      So why in God's name should we care about this one murder up in Canada? Because it's an "honor" killing? We get those in the US too, and they do get reported on, including the religion of the killer. Even those are barely newsworthy. Sad, yes, but more Americans die in gang violence than to honor killings by, like, a factor of a thousand.

      And by the way, it is a fucking lie to say that only Fox reported "that they're muslim". Here's a quote from CNN's coverage: "In taking the stand, [Mohammed] Shafia swore to tell the truth on the Quran and he again invoked the holy book to say Islam does not condone killing people to preserve a family's honor." I suppose it didn't use the word "muslim", but if you've got a guy named Mohammed being sworn in on a Quran and talking about the teachings of Islam, you'd have to be pretty dense not to figure it out. Considering that your whole point seemed to be that the American media self-censors, this lie undermines the very heart of your claim.

    8. Re:It's kind of ironic... by cymbeline · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Why is it a big deal that he is Muslim? What about his hair color, or his favorite TV show? I guess the media is hiding the truth from us since they didn't tell us that.

    9. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because it's one of a string of "Honour" killings that have happened in Canada since Muslim immigration took off in the mid 1990s.

      There is nothing wrong with recognizing that certain cultures might not be terribly compatible with western civilization.

    10. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    11. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So was their being Muslim relevant to the trial? There's a couple murder trials going on around here and I don't think anyone cares what faith they are. If they were Baptists would Fox have pointed it out? I don't think so, because it has nothing to do with the trial (I assume, I actually know none of the facts in the case). The reason they pointed it out wasn't because they're champions of truth, it's because they're bigots that want to associate murder with being a muslim.

    12. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I saw it on CNN. They were very clear that the family was Afghan, and that there was a strong suspicion that the deaths were 'honor killings.' Beyond that, how is it important that they specify a religion?

    13. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's ironic (but notat all surprising) is that the slashdot comment posting the lie would get a 4 rating, while the comment stating the actual facts gets a 1 rating. Want a high rating for your comment? Make sure it bashes something conservative and you're golden.

    14. Re:It's kind of ironic... by rbrander · · Score: 3, Informative

      So I went to cnn.com and searched on "canada killing trial" and the top story is titled "Bomb threat delays 'honor' murder trial in Canada", so, yup, the media got the bomb threat story out once it was confirmed.

      In the story:

      "In taking the stand, Shafia swore to tell the truth on the Quran and he again invoked the holy book to say Islam does not condone killing people to preserve a family's honor."

      I admit the word "Muslim" does not appear. Just Islam. And Quran. And all their names and country of origin.

    15. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They never tell me when the murderes are Lutheran or Methodist either. What does the judeo christian sect they belong to matter to me?

    16. Re:It's kind of ironic... by junglee_iitk · · Score: 1

      Why this news should get coverage in USA anyway? Because Muslims are involved? Or because women were murdered? Or because it is Canada?

      Look, I am all for fair reporting news. But there literally thousands of heinous murders happening in Mexico everyday. Get some perspective.

    17. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      We can ignore the fact that the Koran says specifically not to do honour killings, that this was a cultural element predating Islam and that while existing under different names it's a practice not unique to Muslims.

      Also it's wrong to conflate the notions of faith and culture, sure they bleed into one another to a certain extent. That's not quite the same as them being one and the same is it though. As for being compatible with western civilization, why should they be? And if there's a good reason, why should they be the only one to change, why not compromise? We share one world and Islam is a part of it. Short of killing them all or forcing conversion or imprisonment what do you propose? Are you really proposing Genocide? Why stop there, why not exterminate all people that disagree with you or upset your sensibilities?

      Of course those ideas are abhorent, it is however the logical conclusion of your bigoted way of thinking. Sadly an increasing number of people are starting to think like this. With this in mind maybe the news agencies were worried about fueling such hatred. And if you think they should be compelled to report religious belief as a salient fact then do the thought experiment of switching Muslim with Jewish and think about how people would react to consideration of faith being a prime factor in such reporting then.

    18. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Media outlets often don't print things like bomb threats to stop copy cats.

    19. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't get me started with media company lies:
      http://honestreporting.com/

    20. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Rockoon · · Score: 2

      Why is it a big deal that he is Muslim?

      I agree that it probably shouldnt normally be that big a deal, but I disagree with the conclusion that if its not normally a big deal then that its supposed to be taboo to report about it.

      In this case its one of the key factors of the case, as its allegedly an honor killing. From the linked article:

      "Though the Crown doesn't ever have to prove motive and these jurors don’t have to decide whether this was an "honour" crime, it was just that, she said -- a mass honour slaying driven by tribal values born in the family’s native Afghanistan."

      If FOX was the only American news outlet to report on this allegation, then bully for them, and fuck all the others that are too politically correct to report the news.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    21. Re:It's kind of ironic... by guises · · Score: 1

      This was well said, despite the Godwin. I hope some mod notices this.

    22. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Because the fact that he is a Muslim has something to do with why he killed them. And because there are a significant number of other Muslims in Western countries who kill their wives/daughters for similar reasons. In addition, there is a large number of Muslims in Western countries who approve of his actions. It is important that members of Western Civilization be aware of this fairly large subset of Muslims. If he had been a member of one of the minority religions from his home country, it is unlikely that he would have committed this crime.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    23. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting that when Hindu women in Canada/US get "honor killed", we should be outraged that they're not mentioning that they are Muslim?

      I am unaware of any such cases.

      Or that when Christian Arab women in Europe get "honor killed" we should be outraged that they're not being labeled Muslim?

      I am unaware of any such case. If you can reference two or three, then you might have a point, but I do not know of any such cases. If there are such cases, then the religion of the perpetrators would be relevant in those cases as well.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    24. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Steauengeglase · · Score: 1

      People still go to CNN?

    25. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Beetle+B. · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaswinder_Kaur_Sidhu

      Not Hindu, but Sikh.

      This article gives more examples:

      http://www.chakranews.com/honour-killings-in-canada-an-undeniable-reality/2035

      Another report points out that 16% of honor killings in North America are not by Muslims:

      http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings

      I couldn't quickly find cases of Christian immigrants to the US/Canada, but it's much easier to find Christian honor killings in their home countries in the Middle East. In Jordan, for example, on a per capita basis, honor killings are more common among Christians than among Muslims.

      If there are such cases, then the religion of the perpetrators would be relevant in those cases as well.

      I'd love to hear the logic behind that, given that the correlation with geography is much greater than that with religion. Parts of the Muslim/Chrisitian world do not have honor killings, and there isn't anything in their texts in support of it.

      --
      Beetle B.
    26. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Another report points out that 16% of honor killings in North America are not by Muslims:

      This suggests that 84% of honor killings are by Muslims. Even if it is a purely cultural issue, completely separate from the religion of the perpetrators, we wil not be able to identify this conclusively unless reports on honour killings actually list the religion of the perpetrators.

      given that the correlation with geography is much greater than that with religion.

      I do not have information on India, which might lead this to be changed, but based on what information I do have, it is suggestive that the dominant religion in the areas of the world where those who do the majority of honour killings come from is Islam. The reason that the religion of the perpetrator of an honour killing is relevant is twofold. First, most perpetrators of honour killings justify their actions on the basis of their religious beliefs. Second, if it turns out that it honour killings are the result of a cultural factor independent of the religion of the perpetrator, reporting the religion of all perpetrators of honour killings would help dispel the impression that it is primarily a Muslim issue.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    27. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If something is certain to be true (not saying that everything is), then the "opposing side" is a lie. Therefore, by giving them permission to oppose everything they hear they are also given the power to lie.

    28. Re:It's kind of ironic... by Beetle+B. · · Score: 1

      Even if it is a purely cultural issue, completely separate from the religion of the perpetrators, we wil not be able to identify this conclusively unless reports on honour killings actually list the religion of the perpetrators.

      What you're saying is equivalent to requiring the religion be reported of any criminal. We won't know that there isn't something common in the religion of most people who deal drugs unless we collect that information. Or the religion of most people who violate copyright laws.

      While we're at it, why not also report their income levels? It often plays a bigger role than religion in many crimes.

      And perhaps how many kids they have.

      And on and on.

      First, most perpetrators of honour killings justify their actions on the basis of their religious beliefs.

      Citation needed.

      Second, if it turns out that it honour killings are the result of a cultural factor independent of the religion of the perpetrator, reporting the religion of all perpetrators of honour killings would help dispel the impression that it is primarily a Muslim issue.

      AKA the "If you've got nothing to hide, you should allow us to search your vehicle" argument. When various studies have pointed out it's not a Muslim issue, and have pointed out it's a cultural issue in a few geographical regions (or by people from those regions), the need to show this is lacking.

      You know what's a big problem? Guns and Christianity. Why is it that most gun related homicides in the US involve Christians? I think that the religion of the perpetrator should be reported whenever there's a gun related homicide. Only that way can we dispel the notion that it's not a Christian problem.

      Of course, you could point out that a lot of countries with large Christian populations don't have much gun related homicides, but I'll conveniently ignore that just as you would ignore predominantly Muslim areas where honor killing is not an issue.

      Going off on a tangent below:

      And, you know, it's a fairly pointless discussion until you state what you mean by "honor killing". Many examples given often involve jealousy or simply "looking bad in the society" (boyfriend feels he is being made fun of) - that's not particularly rare in the US (or often in Latin American countries) amongst non-Muslims - yet they're not defined as honor killings.

      It's also fairly silly to make honor killings seem like a crime worse than your usual run of the mill homicide, which far outnumbers honor killings. When the US has a significantly higher homicide rate than many countries where honor killings are "common", why is it that the focus is always on the latter? Shouldn't we, according to you, report the religion of anyone who commits homicide in the US? Reducing the homicide rate in the US to that of Turkey, Jordan or Lebanon would be a greater feat than if any of those countries eliminated honor killings. So why does the latter warrant special treatment - even when such a crime occurs in the US or Canada?

      If it happens in the US or Canada, at the end of the day, the only relevant issue is whether the justice system found them guilty - just as it is for all homicides.

      --
      Beetle B.
  6. Since when by swalve · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    does freedom of the press have anything to do with freedom to go anywhere you want? Freedom of the press is about publishing without interference, not about being able to go anywhere one wants. What happened to the journalists trying to cover OWS was no good, but it wasn't a freedom of the press issue.

    1. Re:Since when by ClioCJS · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You say it wasn't -- yet provide no reason why it isn't.

      So if journalists are not allowed to be at events to cover them, but can then write all they want (about what they missed?), then that is full freedom? It seems like that is what you're saying

      . Not only are you wrong, but I have to wonder what kind of personal bias you have to even go down that line of logic.

      You never specified "what happened to the journalists trying to cover OWS", purposely leaving your own argument vague. Probably because if you look at the details, you'll find they were in public space covering the public doing public things.

      And yes, being prevented from doing that IS freedom of press, despite your Orwellianesque attempt to redefine the word.

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
    2. Re:Since when by pnot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Freedom of the press is about publishing without interference, not about being able to go anywhere one wants.

      It was my understanding that the "occupy" protests, in general, have been occurring in public spaces (this is certainly the case in my city). I don't understand why it would be illegal to go to a public space in order to report on a protest happening there.

      If you're talking about cases where journalists have committed illegal trespass, then perhaps I could see your point. But I assume that the press freedom rankings are based on arrests of journalists not committing trespass. I'm thinking about people such as Kristyna Wentz-Graff; since she was released without charge, it would appear that she was not committing a crime when she was arrested.

    3. Re:Since when by praxis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So what you are saying is that arresting the press at a gathering on public land is not a freedom of the press issue? What you mean is that we can say what we want, but are not permitted to observe what is happening on our land?

    4. Re:Since when by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Freedom of the press is about publishing without interference, not about being able to go anywhere one wants.

      It includes being able to go anywhere you should normally be able to legally go so long as it doesn't unduly compromise your safety, and the only thing going on which unduly compromised their safety was illegal actions by police.

      What happened to the journalists trying to cover OWS was no good, but it wasn't a freedom of the press issue.

      [citation needed]

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Since when by jschrod · · Score: 1
      90 minutes ago, my mod points expired.

      I applaud your comment, and would have liked to still have them.

      --

      Joachim

      People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]

    6. Re:Since when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Uh... It's precisely about freedom of the press. They were arrested specifically because they were covering the protests and police action. No one who isn't completely Fox-addled pretends otherwise. That's the very definition of a violation of freedom of the press. If the press is not allowed to cover an event of public significance because the coverage is inconvenient for those in power, you're not very far from a police state.

    7. Re:Since when by realityimpaired · · Score: 4, Funny

      no, see... it wasn't a freedom of the press issue, it was a freedom of the reporters issue. Two completely different things! The press is still free to report whatever they want, but the reporters can be imprisoned all the government wants without infringing on that!

      ^.~

    8. Re:Since when by anagama · · Score: 1

      That's the sort of narrow literal reading that makes civil liberties go away. Let's say the government wants to suppress certain stories. There is more than one way to achieve that goal, yet would assert that the only one that matters is when the government tells the press not to print X or Y. The government can achieve the same result by arresting reporters, hiding information, turning off the power to the printing plant -- there are probably dozens of creative ways of interfering with the right of the people to know what their government does. And all of them violate the first amendment.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    9. Re:Since when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      And if it's inconvenient, you call the editor and get the first paragraph changed.

      http://i51.tinypic.com/296i2iq.jpg

      Next time around, there may be protests up the wazoo, but there may not be any coverage, or it soft power will be deployed to make sure the coverage goes a certain way, as we can see in the example above.

    10. Re:Since when by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

      How many of these "journalists" getting arrested were bloggers and twipsters just there to participate?

    11. Re:Since when by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2

      A decision to not prosecute does not necessarily mean that a crime was not occurring. It may mean that the evidence is not strong enough to get a conviction worthy of the resources spent on it or that the potential downside of continuing the prosecution (as of a journalist) outweighs the punitive measure against the accused.

      I do believe that journalists should largely be left alone except in cases of safety problems (and even then sometimes it's their call), but it's getting tougher to nail down who is a journalist these days. Anyone with a webpage can claim to be a journalist. Anyone caught being part of the events should lose their journalist protections, but sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is part of the events or just in the crowd getting reactions.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    12. Re:Since when by lgw · · Score: 1

      I didn't follow what happened to the pres - were they just rounded up at the same time everyone else in the same public area was rounded up? Or did the police arrest some reporters at a time when they weren't arresting occupiers too? I can totally understand the former (especially if there were "reporters" without any formal credentials and not obviously different from the OWSers), but the latter would be particularly disturbing.

      This trend towards "the police will always watch you, but it's illegal to watch the police" is IMO the most concerning trend in modern politics.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    13. Re:Since when by pnot · · Score: 4, Informative

      A decision to not prosecute does not necessarily mean that a crime was not occurring. It may mean that the evidence is not strong enough to get a conviction worthy of the resources spent on it or that the potential downside of continuing the prosecution (as of a journalist) outweighs the punitive measure against the accused.

      It's a fair point -- but in the Wentz-Graff case, the police never stated to her or anyone else what crime she was suspected of. The police seem to be running with "oops, we didn't know she was a journalist", which seems implausible given the clearly visible press card in the photographs of her arrest.

      Of course, any one case can be put down to incompetence, but this isn't just one case. The SJS editorial linked from the TFA gives other examples, as well as a fairly measured commentary which takes into account the difficulties faced by police.

      I agree with you that the explosion of "citizen journalists" creates a bit of a grey area here, but most of the cases under discussion seem to involve salaried, credentialled, professional journalists and reporters taking pains to advertise their status.

      Maybe it is just incompetence all round, but the effect is the same whether or not this is a planned policy: journalists are discouraged from reporting on protests by fear that they will be arrested.

    14. Re:Since when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is Al Baker? Police Bureau Chief at the NYT, son of a cop, works with cops, and now -- you guessed it, he's covering for the cops.

    15. Re:Since when by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      'Journalist protections'?? What's that? Are we supposed to have some special license to witness and report events?

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    16. Re:Since when by countertrolling · · Score: 0

      Not only are you wrong, but I have to wonder what kind of personal bias you have to even go down that line of logic.

      I believe the common term for that nowadays is 'trolling'... And this one is getting fat on today's catch

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    17. Re:Since when by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2

      There have been for a long time. They're called press credentials, and they're supposed to mean that the journalists are there to observe and report on the events, not take part in them. They're not generally required, but are considered to be useful for authorities to know who is probably not partaking in the activities and to grant them leeway. Press credentials may also get a person into limited-access events such as certain press conferences where allowing the general public would create too much of a crowd management problem.

      Journalists do get special protections which vary but which the courts have often (though not always) recognized as essential to freedom of the press including the right to withhold the identities of sources. If you're not a journalist and someone tells you something that is critical to a case, you may be compelled by the courts to do so. Journalists generally are free of this to protect sources from reprisal, though in many cases it's not codified into law and journalists in the US have served time for contempt of court for refusing to reveal the sources. Some states have passed laws specifically addressing this, but to date there is no federal law providing such protection.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    18. Re:Since when by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      "...we're all the same here on the playing field. Officers and men alike."

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    19. Re:Since when by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Or did the police arrest some reporters at a time when they weren't arresting occupiers too?

      there have been numerous instances where journalists have been arrested while attempting to enter an OWS campsite or protest area.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    20. Re:Since when by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      So what you are saying is that arresting the press at a gathering on public land is not a freedom of the press issue?

      This idea that any infringement upon the right of way of the press is a freedom of the press issue is simply wrong.

      I believe that it is only a freedom of the press issue if the press was specifically targeted for arrest. Its certainly wrong when the police target people specifically for the act of recording video of what the police are doing in public, and I'm sure you've seen youtube videos of this happening, and its even more wrong when its a member of the press.

      The press do not have carte-blanch to go anywhere they please at any time. If everyone is being removed from an area for reason X, then that includes the press. If reason X is not valid, then thats the real issue.. not that a member of the press happened to be one of the people removed.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    21. Re:Since when by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      there have been numerous instances where journalists have been arrested while attempting to enter an OWS campsite or protest area.

      Why quote the question and then not answer it?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    22. Re:Since when by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Why quote the question and then not answer it?

      I did answer it, but I didn't provide citations, which are trivially locatable via google. Hope this helps you improve your grasp on the English language.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    23. Re:Since when by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      I did answer it

      No, you didn't. The fact that a reporter was arrested trying to enter an OWS campsite does not preclude the possibility that many non-reporters were also arrested trying to enter the same OWS campsite on the same day, or even simultaneously.

      Since the question is "did the police arrest some reporters at a time when they weren't arresting occupiers too?" this leaves us with the fact that you didnt answer the fucking question.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    24. Re:Since when by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1
      Right here you demonstrate one of the problems we have.

      ...recognized as essential to freedom of the press including the right to withhold the identities of sources.

      In what way does the right to withhold the identities of my sources impact on my right, as a citizen, to use a printing press to print whatever I want? The Constitutional provision "freedom of the press" does not refer to the freedom of journalists. It refers to the freedom of citizens to use a printing press (or equivalent) to publish whatever they like. On a side note, I am not convinced that the Framers would approve of libel laws even though I see their value. I would like to have a discussion with someone like James Madison about such laws.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    25. Re:Since when by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I was not aware that they had arrested any presses. I was under the impression that they only arrested several journalists.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    26. Re:Since when by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Since the question is "did the police arrest some reporters at a time when they weren't arresting occupiers too?" this leaves us with the fact that you didnt answer the fucking question.

      Neither bold nor profanity makes your question any more relevant. Whether anyone else was being arrested means nothing whatsoever.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    27. Re:Since when by phlinn · · Score: 1

      So, is "journalist" a de-facto title of nobility then? Seems that there might be a constitutional issue with that. Absolute immunity for police and prosecutors should also be questioned on those grounds, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

      --
      "Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
    28. Re:Since when by lgw · · Score: 1

      Well, it may mena nothing to you, but it's what I was interested in. The police specifically targeting reporters is a bad sign, The police just not caring about whether the people they arrested were reporters - well, I don't care much either - "the press" are the same as everyone else, and shouldn't get special treatment either way.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    29. Re:Since when by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Whether anyone else was being arrested means nothing whatsoever.

      If answering the question means nothing to you, then why the fuck did you quote it, then pretend to answer it, and finally insist that you did.

      The question bothers you, and apparently your inability to respond to the question also bothers you.

      Its time to be honest with yourself, that you dont actually have a position which you personally can defend. Thats called faith, as in christians, jews, and muslims. I bet that bothers you too.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    30. Re:Since when by praxis · · Score: 1

      For your edification, from the OED:

      press, n.1 3. e. With sing. or pl. concord. Journalists, newspaper reporters collectively. Also: an individual reporter. Chiefly with the.

    31. Re:Since when by praxis · · Score: 1

      You are correct up to the point when the press identify themselves and are then arrested as happened several times during the Occupy protests. No matter who was right, it *is* a freedom of the press issue, and we as a society must chose which takes priority. Do we allow officers to prevent journalists from observing on public land, which is the point you argue with "If everyone is being removed from an area for reason X, then that includes the press." Or, do we value the public's ability to gain knowledge via our journalists to keep the government in check?

    32. Re:Since when by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      Libel laws were present long before the Constitution was written, but it wasn't until the 20th century that current libel concepts were applied. You don't have the right to print whatever you want, and before 1734, if you printed something defamatory--even if you printed the truth--you were subject to damages and imprisonment. (This didn't always stop publication of pamphlets and newspapers containing defamatory and/or false statements, often in ways that make modern mudslinging seem polite.)

      You do have the right to print the events as you see them (subject to narrow limitations like libel), and in those cases you probably fall under journalistic protection laws if you're merely reporting on the event. If you're participating in the act, you're unlikely to be protected. The place of weblogs and similar small-scale sites has yet to be fully fleshed out because in five minutes, someone can set up a site, toss up a couple of posts, and claim protections when they're just trying to be obstructive.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    33. Re:Since when by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Have you looked into the history of that definition of "press"? You might be interested to learn that that definition of press did not exist when the First Amendment was written. The phrase "freedom of the press" derives primarily from the 1st Amendment of the U.S Constitution. If one looks at the writings and court rulings from around the time of the framing of the Constitution, one clearly sees that this phrase applies to everyone. That is, everyone has the right to freely publish their thoughts and opinions. The 1st Amendment does not use the term "press" to refer to those in the news business. Instead it uses it as an adjunct to freedom of speech. Not only does everyone have the right to speak their thoughts and opinions, they have the right to publish them without government interference.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    34. Re:Since when by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      You seem to miss my basic point. My basic point is that the 1st Amendment has nothing to do with journalism. The 1st Amendment lists "freedom of the press" as an adjunct to "freedom of speech". Not only does everyone have the right to speak their thoughts and opinions, they have the right to publish those thoughts and opnions without the interference of government.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    35. Re:Since when by praxis · · Score: 1

      So, you knew what I meant by arresting the press then? You could have instead replied that freedom of the press is not violated by the summary arrest of members of the press as that was not what the framers had in mind. I would argue though, that giving the government the power to arrest members of the press in order to keep them from reporting on events in a public space is a freedom of the press issue, at least in spirit.

  7. Thank the drug war ... by anagama · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Thank the drug war and the war on terror for the militarization of the police.

    http://www.thenation.com/blog/164695/former-seattle-police-chief-ows-reveals-militarization-our-police-forces

    --
    What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    1. Re:Thank the drug war ... by countertrolling · · Score: 2

      *sigh* kids... All this must be new to you...

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  8. 100%? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How is 27 to 47 considered falling over 100%?

    1. Re:100%? by SYSS+Mouse · · Score: 1

      He means the ranking dropped in 100% criteria

    2. Re:100%? by Solandri · · Score: 4, Insightful

      More to the point, why would anyone care what % they drop in a ranking? A ranking is just an ordered list. It says nothing about the criteria used to put the elements in that order.

      It's like finishing times for a marathon. If the leading pack crosses together, there could be only a 30 second difference between 1st place and 25th place. Meanwhile there could be a 5 minute difference between 25th place and 26st place. But if you look at just the ranking, you'd think that the 25th place finisher was nearly as bad as the 26th place finisher, when in reality he was actually very close to finishing 1st.

      If you want to make relative comparisons like %, you have to look at the finishing times. In particular, the rank order is meaningless for gauging year-to-year changes. What if everyone improved? Then you could drop in rank despite doing better than the previous year.

    3. Re:100%? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Though I agree with your statement. I fear that in this case it does not apply.

    4. Re:100%? by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. A better measure would be to look at how a country compares with its neighbours in the list.

      In its new position, the USA is below Comoros, a country which had it's first ever peaceful election in 2006, and has a legal system based on Sharia law. It is now level-pegging with Taiwan, Argentina and Romania. With a score of 14,000, it is only 1,000 points ahead of Haiti. It's score is now closer to those of Bosnia, Sierra Leone and the Central African Republic than it is to the UK (at around 20k for the former, 0.2k for the latter).

      So, probably best not to break out the party hats just yet.

  9. Want to know what I REALLY think about this? by Faulkner39 · · Score: 5, Funny

    comment removed

  10. Some kind of irony by ChrisGoodwin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Seven of the nations that rank "more free" than the United States are former Soviet bloc states.

    --
    Pretend there is some witty statement here.
    1. Re:Some kind of irony by bky1701 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not really irony. They simply know where the slippery slope leads. Americans have forgotten why tyranny is bad.

    2. Re:Some kind of irony by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Funny

      Got a nice view of the sand there, Mr. Ostrich?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    3. Re:Some kind of irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Brilliant comeback. I have to admit that your sharp wit simply overwhelms me.

      Now in Poland you can be fined for insulting the Bible. But yes, that has nothing to do with the press' freedom compared to the US.

      "“Whoever offends the religious feelings of other persons by outraging in public an object of religious worship or space for the public performance of religious rites, shall be subject to a fine, restriction of liberty or imprisonment for 2 years.”'\

      In the UK, journalists can be arrested for disclosing non-authorized statements from police officers and there are other restrictions on the press that would simply not be thinkable in the US.

      Yet both countries rank considerably higher than the US.

      But yes, your Ostrich statement trumps all this.

    4. Re:Some kind of irony by bky1701 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Considering I live in the US, I think claiming i have "an axe to grind" is a little disingenuous. If I do, it is for good reason.

      The freedom of the press in the US primarily applies to mass media. Over the last decade, free speech has been cut away for everyone else. Try video taping a public official or locating something embarrassing to the government/big business. At best you will have your camera/computer stolen, at worst you will end up in jail. Of course, the fact mass media still has freedom is meaningless, since they are owned by the same people who own the government. If you believe the US is freer than Europe, it is probably because you have listened to the official line, and not actually gone and figured out why the US might actually be ranked lower.

    5. Re:Some kind of irony by jd2112 · · Score: 1

      Not really irony. They simply know where the slippery slope leads. Americans have forgotten why tyranny is bad.

      I remember when the Iron Curtain fell. I remember Regan talking about the evils of the East German secret police and hour such things could never happen in America. Look how far we've fallen in less than 30 years.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    6. Re:Some kind of irony by MyLongNickName · · Score: 2

      Did you participate in the rankings? Otherwise your "disingenuous" comment is off the mark.

      Are you really telling me that the press in the US is less free than their counterparts in the UK? In Poland? In the UK, there are restrictions on the press that would be unconstitutional in the US. And Poland doesn't even respect the right to criticize religion

      No, the US is not perfect. And yes, there should be a spotlight on such stupidity as "free speech zones". But if you are really claiming that these rankings represent the relative freedoms in many of these countries, you are way off base.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    7. Re:Some kind of irony by artor3 · · Score: 2

      Living in the US doesn't mean that you don't have an axe to grind against the country. There are plenty of people here who'd like to see the whole thing burn down.

      If you think that the US is less free than Europe, you have an absurdly idyllic idea of what Europe is like.

    8. Re:Some kind of irony by cavreader · · Score: 1

      "At best you will have your camera/computer stolen, at worst you will end up in jail." This is BS. Outside of the case where police confiscated someones camera phone at a shooting scene and even and the fact that this happened was detailed in multiple sources. Anecdotal evidence does not support your assertion. Are there any people imprisoned in the US because of information they have published except for those few cases that fall under in the classified information like Manning? And make no mistake he broke military laws after he voluntarily gave his oath to satisfy the military restrictions on the release of certain types of information. And before you say it this is about freedom of press not freedom to violate copyright law or instances where the person disclosing the information voluntarily signed a confidentially agreement. And in these instances I have never heard of any offenders being sentenced to jail.

    9. Re:Some kind of irony by artor3 · · Score: 1

      Yet more proof that a good turn of phrase matters more to people than truth.

      Society is dead.

    10. Re:Some kind of irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People have their cameras confiscated and are arrested fairly regularly while recording the police. This has happend in multiple states.

    11. Re:Some kind of irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reagan was the first President to reduce the power of the Freedom of Information Act. I wouldn't call him a tyrant, as his wife's astrologist made many of his most important decisions. He ran on a platform of reducing the Federal deficit. Then he created a record deficit. (which has since been beaten by both GWB and Obama.)

    12. Re:Some kind of irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course they may not be sentenced to prison. That does not, however, preclude them from harassment, arrest and/or attempts to throw them in prison.

      Phil Mocek was arrested and tried for filming a TSA checkpoint. Oh, and the video of the arrest was deleted while Phil was in custody. Here is a list of 7 incidents that occurred in 2011 alone that involved the arrest, threat of arrest, intimidation or assault of someone photographing or videotaping a public official in public.

      This is not BS. It's happening with alarming regularity in the United States. This is despite multiple federal court decisions upholding the right of individuals to film.

    13. Re:Some kind of irony by IICV · · Score: 1

      Slippery slope? I was going to go with "they don't have the money or political power to care".

    14. Re:Some kind of irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And if you think that Europe is less free than the US I invite you to try living in whichever place you are not living in now. I've lived in both and you couldn't PAY me to live in the US at this point.

      The bad policies in Europe are more commonly a result of bungling. The bad policies in the US are commonly a result of fucking EVIL corporate interests who would just as soon poison the groundwater to make Q2 look a bit better.

      One is fixable, the other needs a revolution to correct and all the people are busy watching television and posting on reddit in the belief that it will change something.

    15. Re:Some kind of irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your own ignorance does not disprove any facts.

    16. Re:Some kind of irony by bky1701 · · Score: 2

      So, because I see problems in the US, I am in the same boat as "people here who'd like to see the whole thing burn down"? There couldn't possibly be a reasonable position which involves considering the US is less free than X other country other than an attempt at treason? I can see why you'd be perfectly fine with the censorship the US does.

    17. Re:Some kind of irony by trifish · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but I don't get it. Where's the irony? Those countries have had standard democracy for almost 25 years.

    18. Re:Some kind of irony by Patch86 · · Score: 2

      In the UK, journalists can be arrested for disclosing non-authorized statements from police officers and there are other restrictions on the press that would simply not be thinkable in the US.

      Citation very much needed.

      The UK is currently having a serious bout of soul-searching (via the Leveson Enquiry) on media ethics. Newsprint in particular in the UK is more or less completely unregulated. They've been hacking phones, email accounts, and stalking people for years without any legal intervention- only now are people starting to ask why behaviour that is criminal for everyone (e.g., hacking into a private computer) is OK if you work for Heat Magazine.

      More relevantly, they've also been caught bribing, blackmailing and seducing information out of police officers. There has been barely a whisper that the journalists might have been acting illegally in these cases (despite the fact they clearly were), with the legal ire instead being focused on police officers who take bribes and leak onfidential information.

    19. Re:Some kind of irony by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Yet more proof that a good turn of phrase matters more to people than truth.

      This is nothing new, and was documented as far back as ancient Greece - though the people who make a living by manipulating others' beliefs probably knew this long before. In fact it can be evidenced in the behavior of "lesser" mammals too. So long as the alpha male is there looking tough, the herd is happy. Yeah once in a while someone gets eaten by a lion, but we have the alpha male to protect us...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    20. Re:Some kind of irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gotta love the "Troll" rating. Basically more people with mod points want to push their point of view than care about proper moderation.

    21. Re:Some kind of irony by cavreader · · Score: 1

      OK I see no reason why anyone would object to someone filming a security checkpoint. Unless of course they are studying the procedures and layout to determine if there are any weaknesses to exploit. Personally I would love to see the TSA closed down and we might as well get rid of all the pesky metal detectors at airports since they are such a nuisance. A few wandering rent-a-cops strolling the concourse should cover it. After all risk is a part of life. Then when the planes start blowing up we can hear all the people bitching and moaning about the lack of security precautions and want to know why someone did not do anything to prevent such acts and of course we shouldn't forget about any lawsuits filed because someone objects to their familiy member coming down in pieces somewhere along the projected flight path. Just like Freedom of Speech has exceptions so does trying to film an installation security systems and operational patterns. But I can be flexible and will support the right to film any damn thing you want regardless of any potential risks but don't ask me to give a shit when the next airplane or office building gets blown up. All of the current security hassles in place were demanded by the public and all the public needs to do to get rid of these precautions is bitch and moan as loud as they did to get them put in place the first time around with the full understanding that the next time something blows up because of a lack of security they are getting exactly what the wanted and if they want to blame someone they can blame the fuckers who actually committed the act.

    22. Re:Some kind of irony by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      "ho[w] such things could never happen in America."

      There's the seed of it, right there. When you think it can't happen to you, it probably will.

    23. Re:Some kind of irony by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      "If you think that the US is less free than Europe, you have an absurdly idyllic idea of what Europe is like."

      I haven't lived in either, but as a foreigner to both who's travels to both reasonably frequently, there's one I try to avoid whenever possible (going there starts with invariably being held at the border for the crime of having a common name), and one I quite enjoy visiting. Care to guess which is which?

  11. Slashdot likes to praise Russia and China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In order to have a strong country, perhaps greater stability is indeed more important than freedom. We say Russia needs a strong leader like Putin to clamp down on forces that would fracture the republic, we say Chinese censorship is necessary because wealth comes from stability. These voices on Slashdot were heralded by its viewers, will they too herald similar American voices?

  12. That will happen ... by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

    When you start trying to execute journalists and their sources.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:That will happen ... by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Private Manning comes to mind...

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:That will happen ... by jschrod · · Score: 2, Interesting
      US' persons views on their soldiers is always "interesting".

      In my country, a soldier would be expected to go beyond his command structure if he has information of the type that Manning had. In fact, theoretically he should be persecuted if he doesn't do so -- but sadly, that persecution doesn't succeed. (Witness Oberst Klein at the Kunduz bombing.)

      --

      Joachim

      People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]

    3. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Manning is an idiot, who shouldn't have had access to those files in the first place. If you're serious about sending someone to the death row, then start there.

    4. Re:That will happen ... by wisnoskij · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't see how you could call him a tool. But he did violate his oath, but I don't see how it should be considered treason unless treason is considered a very broad term in the military. Additionally, I cannot agree that anyone, no matter what they are guilty of, deserve a death sentence if their crime had no provable real negative effects. Also, there are many whistle-blower laws that are supposed to protect people like Manning (because not only do employers unilaterally dislike whistle-blowers, often it would be illegal to disclose information, except when you are a whistle-blower).

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    5. Re:That will happen ... by Qzukk · · Score: 2

      Pfft. Views on whistleblowers are always interesting in every field.

      Take, for instance, that football coach that was just following the command structure when he passed the kiddie rape info up to the next guy. Suddenly he should have been a whistleblower "for the children!"

      Even odds that a randomly selected person who thinks he should have "done more" also thinks that just about every other person out there shouldn't "pull rank" or "buck the command structure" or "blow the whistle". You get the culture you deserve.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    6. Re:That will happen ... by oodaloop · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You mean the oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic? Seems he's one of the few who took it seriously.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    7. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A oath to defend, from all threats foreign and domestic, and uphold the Constitution of the US.
       
      Did you know that a solder has a duty to disobey illegal orders?

    8. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, I never looked into the details in enough detail to argue the point.

      However, part of that oath is to uphold the constitution and protect the citizens of the United States of America. What would you consider to be the appropriate response if you find yourself in a situation where you have evidence that your superiors, or the government at large, is acting in a manner that threatens those things? At that point there is no action (or inaction) you can take which does *not* violate your oath.

      Given the trajectory our government seems to be on, I just think we need to be *very* careful about persecuting those who shine a light in dark places.

    9. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that football coach

      He watered down the report he received and was careful to keep criminal matters in-house. Lied and covered-up, in other words.

      who thinks he should have "done more"

      No. Just not lying or covering up would have been sufficient. He could then claim he relayed a full and unedited account to the proper authorities and therefore bore no further responsibility. He didn't do that, so he couldn't make that argument.

      While, your "randomly selected person" straw-man crying "for the children" no doubt exists, I suspect you exaggerate the prevalence of such people. Malcontents are prone to characterize all others as witless. It isn't true, but it makes them feel good.

    10. Re:That will happen ... by lgw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But Manning didn't use any of the legitimate avenues available to him. The US armed services have a variety of way to go around your command structure to report a problem with your command structure (their not idiots!). It's usually a career-ending choice, but it's completely legal. There are ways to be a whistle-blower built into the army.

      But that's not what happened - he didn't make any such attempt, he just revealed secrets in violaiton of his oath at the first opportunity. If the military let anyone get away with that sort of BS, we couldn't win a war. The simple fact is - Manning simply had no way of knowing what was really going on with the stuff he leaked, and it's just part of being in any army that you're not going to be told everything that's happening, so you can't really reach conclusions about whether someone distant from you is crossing the line. All you can legitimately do is say "hey this looks bad, that guy's chain of command needs to look at this", or in an extreme case "hey, that guy's entire chain of comman must be corrupt, so the JAG needs to get involved", but you'll never have any of the result of that explained to you.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    11. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Once again, Manning was NOT a whistle blower. A whistle blower understands the information he has and why it's wrong. There is no physically possible way that Manning could have known the contents of over a quarter of a million documents that were just dumped on the net. He has no idea what information got out or what kind of damage he could have done.
       
      Every nation has secrets. Some need to be revealed. America is no exception. But Manning was a reckless prick.

    12. Re:That will happen ... by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      A oath to defend, from all threats foreign and domestic, and uphold the Constitution of the US.

      Did you know that a solder has a duty to disobey illegal orders?

      And a duty to obey legal orders.

    13. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't the assistant coach deny that he actually saw what he said he saw, and it turns out he only had a baseless suspicion that Sandusky had been doing something?

      In which case, if Paterno "watered down" the story, he only "watered down" a baseless suspicion.

      One of the other accusers recanted too, and at least one accusation was reminiscent of the Satanic Abuse panic of the 1980's - which is to say, it was utterly unbelievable....

      So maybe Sandusky did something, or not. You can bet that the media doesn't care, because they make money by scaring people, and frightened people demand more government, and government pays off the journalists to spin things a certain way. That's the real story for why there's little media freedom in the U.S., and recent abuse of journalists is just the icing on the cake.

    14. Re:That will happen ... by Beetle+B. · · Score: 1

      But he did violate his oath

      He may have committed a crime, but it's debatable whether he violated the oath. Keeping secrets is not part of the oath, and if one has to release classified documents to serve the nation, it is very much in keeping with the oath.

      And keeping secrets when it harms the nation is an obvious violation of the oath.

      --
      Beetle B.
    15. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (their not idiots!)

      Well, someone is.

    16. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really, as a previous person noted. There are many varied means to expose bad behavior within the military. In fact, there are JAGs that would love to get a hold of something info that soldiers or commands were behaving unreasonably. They are the embedded as a multi-level conscience for the military. If Manning wanted to correct the problem, he could have worked the chain... but he wanted to make a name and cause some grief. So, he gets what he deserves. I doubt a tribunal would hand him execution... but if they do, I would support it.

      The number one thing in a military is ethos. It punishes bad behavior and builds trust. Both of those things are vital. Manning stepped out of line with intent to harm his country and without regard to whom it may injure or endanger. That is treason.

    17. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      treason is one of only three crimes defined in the constitution. there have to be TWO witnesses. so unless there were TWO ppl who personally witnessed manning give classified data to someone the treason charge is baseless.

    18. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent is not a troll and deserves a positive score. Manning certainly violated his military oath.

    19. Re:That will happen ... by evil_aaronm · · Score: 1

      The "defend the Constitution" part comes first. For a reason.

    20. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Additionally, I cannot agree that anyone, no matter what they are guilty of, deserve a death sentence if their crime had no provable real negative effects.

      If I shoot a person with a gun, and it turns out the gun isn't loaded, should I be punished less than if the gun was loaded? If something is a crime because it could have a negative effect, the punishment should not depend on luck.

    21. Re:That will happen ... by suppo · · Score: 1

      It is not debatable. His oath included words to the effect of obeying the orders of officers appointed over him. His specialty required a high level security clearance which entails specific training (orders of his superiors) and written signature agreement (a contract) to keep information secret. Manning was in no position to know if that information was harmful to the nation. He didn't have enough time to read it all, let alone have the breadth of knowledge to determine it being harmful or not.

      --
      NON-geek Linux user since 1998
    22. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US armed services have a variety of way to go around your command structure to report a problem with your command structure

      And what are the official ways to go around the command structure?

      FYI, the president himself is part of the command structure, so there is no way to go above (there's nobody above the president). The only ways are to the sides. Which side would have been better than the press (through Wikileaks, as the US press itself are too much part of what's wrong with the system to be trusted to not expose the whistle blower - which was actually proved, when a US reporter did expose Manning).

    23. Re:That will happen ... by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      But his superiors up the chain all had the same information he had. There is nothing he could of done within the chain of command. This was not some specific information that really only he had, it was just a huge archive of Intel that hundreds of other people knew more about then he did.

      And technically treason (at least the definition that everyone uses and what we are all referring to) intent to overthrow the government not just intent to cause it grief or without regard to causing harm.

      And why should he deserve death if what you say is true? At no point do you say that he intentionality try to cause harm to anyone, but he deserves death.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    24. Re:That will happen ... by blackfireuponus · · Score: 1

      The legitimate avenues for whistleblowing are a farce. In military culture, one hand washes the other and rank means everything. Also, I took that some oath 11 years ago and my interpretation is that the first duty is to the constitution.

    25. Re:That will happen ... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      How much of the Wikileaks data would we have if Manning had used the chain of command? When the chain of command is corrupt, how do you blow the whistle through the chain of command?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    26. Re:That will happen ... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Interesting example. In Canada you are required, by law, to report any incident of child abuse to the police. There's no question of whether you "should have done more" or not.

    27. Re:That will happen ... by Sedated2000 · · Score: 1

      I urge anyone interested in the Manning case to read the chat logs between him and Lamo. After doing so, I could no longer believe Manning did it for the good of anyone. He was angry and dealing with many different emotional issues and made a grab for any and all information he could leak. His expression of worry for being caught was not that he'd be jailed or all over the news... it's that he'd be all over the news referred to as "him" and not "her" or "she". Lamo egged him on at every chance as well, completely using Manning in my opinion. Everyone that comes within ten feet of a military computer account knows what is expected of them. I simply don't understand people pressing the idea that he's "not guilty" simply because they don't have a readily available instance of any harm caused by the release.

      The point is not whether it was harmful, the point is that you don't release classified information at all. You signed legally binding documents stating this before you were granted access. Further, he did not know what he was releasing. Sure he found the video of the helicopter shooting, but he certainly didn't know what else could have been in the quick mass grab of information he did.

      Think of this in other terms. Isn't wreckless endangerment still a crime? You may not have harmed or killed a child, but putting them in a situation that could have done that is enough for charges to be brought and executed against you.

      Just my two cents, I'd like to hear a reasonable argument why not.

    28. Re:That will happen ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect you exaggerate the prevalence of such people.

      I guess that's why we have laws forcing companies to hire back whistleblowers, because so many companies are competing for those paragons of virtue that it'd be unfair to the company for them to be driven away by some corrupt middle manager.

  13. Math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    In other news, US dropped 110% in world math rankings...

  14. Numbers Please for the "Occupy" Repression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Given the simply *massive* amount of coverage that the "Occupy" protests got and the sheer amount of "journalists" covering all of the various camp-ins, sit-ins, poop-on-cop-car-ins, etc... that happened, I don't remember seeing/hearing much about any journalists being arrested.

    That could be because maybe their freedom of speech was being restricted, although I remember all the countless hours of "our freedom of speech is being violated" interviews, articles, and counter-counter-protests, and docu-dramas -- but not that. /snark

    I would like to know the following:
    1). The exact *TOTAL* number of reporters that were arrested covering "Occupy" in the US. So far I see one.
    1). Percentage, as a whole, of reporters that were arrested or detained directly covering the "Occupy" movement. Raw numbers would be nice as well.
    2). Percentage of reporters arrested that were violating a federal, state, or municipal law at the time.
    3). Percentage of reporters arrested that were accredited journalists with professional news organizations rather than blogs/activist newspapers/facebook posters.

    I didn't see a whole lot of journalistic "repression" going on while I did see a lot of very mixed-up people talk endlessly about how they're being repressed to the nearest video camera or recording device while violating laws. I got nearly two months of media coverage in video, press, and web forms. I couldn't turn on the news without hearing about "Occupy".

    1. Re:Numbers Please for the "Occupy" Repression by mykos · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Totally agree, man. As long as the rape of the Constitution isn't too widespread, it's ok. It's just a little rape.

    2. Re:Numbers Please for the "Occupy" Repression by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Totally agree, man. As long as the rape of the Constitution isn't too widespread, it's ok. It's just a little rape.

      And tasteful.

    3. Re:Numbers Please for the "Occupy" Repression by TranquilVoid · · Score: 1

      He's not implying it's ok. The analogy would be listing nations by frequency and severity of rape, so the 'littleness or bigness' is important.

    4. Re:Numbers Please for the "Occupy" Repression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, one AC didn't see a lot of reporters arrested, and even if they were, it was a low percentage so its ok. What bullshit! If they attack and arrest ONE journalist for covering a political event or a police crackdown we have a problem. But hey you didn't see it so this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/17/occupy-wall-street-nov-17-journalists-arrested-beaten_n_1099661.html) and this (http://online.wsj.com/article/AP7788a68e595d4722950196f35c6d4e5b.html) didn't happen. No one (http://storify.com/jcstearns/tracking-journalist-arrests-during-the-occupy-prot) is tracking these arrests (as best they can). If you are going to stuff your head in the sand, you don't get to pretend to speak with authority.

    5. Re:Numbers Please for the "Occupy" Repression by buybuydandavis · · Score: 1

      I too would like to know who all was arrested, and what for.

      Having a blog or a youtube channel doesn't entitle you to break the law.

    6. Re:Numbers Please for the "Occupy" Repression by MxTxL · · Score: 1

      Really??? Seriously? You wrote this whole post out when you could have typed about 8 words in Google to find your answers.

      Here is a listing: http://storify.com/jcstearns/tracking-journalist-arrests-during-the-occupy-prot

      Many are 'bloggers', students, photojournalists and other citizens media which you seem to think don't count as press but many of them are credentialed journalists from reputable firms such as the New York Times, Associated Press, NPR, WSJ and Reuters.

      Also, these are just the arrests of journalists. This doesn't count the other shady tactics such as timing raids for when press are out of the area and deliberately barring press from being near the area when raids are occurring.

    7. Re:Numbers Please for the "Occupy" Repression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know exactly what you mean. I'm always explaining to people that the Chinese government never killed anyone in Tiananmen Square, because there weren't any stories about it in the Chinese newspapers.

  15. It ain't just the US by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Holland keeps its third place but loses a whole 9 points (US lost 14), the only reason we are still 3rd is because everyone started from a worse positin but it is hardly good. Wonder if anyone dares to call out Rukker on this (Previous Prime Minsters was Bakellende, the cambion offspring off Bush and Blair, Rukker is that guys pet rock, an object with absolutely no ideas, opinions or passion)... doubt it, probably everyone pats themselves on the back for still being 3rd no matter how steep the downwards slope is.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:It ain't just the US by dkf · · Score: 1

      Holland keeps its third place but loses a whole 9 points (US lost 14), the only reason we are still 3rd is because everyone started from a worse positin but it is hardly good.

      It seems that the scoring system was changed; calibrating from last year to this is going to be very difficult indeed. OTOH, if the majority of countries are staying at roughly the same level, that indicates that the scores are at least consistent in their purpose (to detect press freedom or its lack).

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    2. Re:It ain't just the US by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      In that scoring system lower is better. Also this is the first index that allows negative scores.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    3. Re:It ain't just the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your perception of their scale is backwards. The more negative a number the better. See for example the ranking of Finland and Norway, which remained steady at -10,00.

  16. Reporters Without Borders moving from the right? by nbauman · · Score: 5, Informative

    I hope this indicates that Reporters Without Borders is moving towards some independence and partisan neutrality, unlike their past performance.

    You can either take money from Otto Reich, or you can be an impartial, credible advocate of press freedom. You can't do both.

    Reporters Without Borders has chosen to take money from Otto Reich.

    As this Wikipedia article explains, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporters_Without_Borders#Controversies Reich was engaging in propaganda to support military campaigns against left-wing governments governments in Latin America, and he was on the board of the School of the Americas, which trained people in torture and executions.

    They accused the Aristide government in Haiti of attacks on the opposition press, but they ignored attacks on journalists under the Latortue government.

  17. Land of the "free" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "free to do as we tell you" more likely.

    Come on here, is this really a big surprise? Its only been, what, 50 years before Americans were easily (without trial or anything) financially and completely ruined because the government suspected that they might hold communistic ideals....

    That's right; in the "land of the free" people were easily ruined because the government suspected they had certain ideals. People were attacked for their possible ideas; NOT for what they did or didn't do. Don't believe me (I know I wouldn't believe such a horror story) ? Look up McCarthy or worse: McCarthyism.

    Really; this shouldn't come as any surprise what so ever. "The ends justify the means" remember? After all; Saddam Hussein had WOD's too right? And; "If you're not with us....".

    1. Re:Land of the "free" ? by superwiz · · Score: 1

      So you agree with the Obama doctrine?

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    2. Re:Land of the "free" ? by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Btw, you do know that after the fall of the Soviet Union (and declassification of a lot of KGB documents), McCarthy's suspicions were proven to be mostly accurate, do you not?

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    3. Re:Land of the "free" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

    4. Re:Land of the "free" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Btw, you do know that after the fall of the Soviet Union (and declassification of a lot of KGB documents), McCarthy's suspicions were proven to be mostly accurate, do you not?

      Citation needed.

    5. Re:Land of the "free" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come on, dude - the crowd have spoken! Prove it!

    6. Re:Land of the "free" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While there were Soviet infiltrators but the Senator was a complete failure on that level as well. Even if you accept the validity of his cause he only did harm to it on several levels. He ruined innocent lives, didn't manage to find the /actual infiltrators/, damaged liberty, and destroyed the credibility of his cause by being nothing more than a bully. While effective at ousting him censure cannot go far enough.

    7. Re:Land of the "free" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a democracy, how is it ever acceptable to punish people for their political beliefs? You cannot say "you are free to hold any belief you like and vote accordingly, except that you're not allowed to believe in communism."

    8. Re:Land of the "free" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      McCarthy's suspicions were proven to be mostly accurate

      The modern version of McCarthy is: You waive all rights or you are a terrorist. Assuming everyone else is a communist/terrorist is just another form of totalitarian government. How does that stop the communists/terrorists?

    9. Re:Land of the "free" ? by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Actually, you are. Communism is a dictatorship in the name of populism. Actively working to turn a nation into a dictatorship, especially under the guidance of foreign agents, is in effect attempting to overthrow the system of government. It's treasonous. The line which cannot cross is in a democracy is the line of attempting to end a democracy. You can believe in whatever you want. But if you occupy a position of power and you attempt to act on those believes, in a democracy, we have a right to know about those believes.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  18. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "John Reston: Television can control public opinion more effectively than armies of secret police, because television is entirely voluntary. The American government forces our children to attend school, but nobody forces them to watch T.V. Americans of all ages *submit* to television. Television is the American ideal. Persuasion without coercion. Nobody makes us watch. Who could have predicted that a *free* people would voluntarily spend one fifth of their lives sitting in front of a *box* with pictures? Fifteen years sitting in prison is punishment. But 15 years sitting in front of a television set is entertainment. And the average American now spends more than one and a half years of his life just watching television commercials. Fifty minutes, every day of his life, watching commercials. Now, that's power. "

    Joke is on you! I don't watch news or commercials!

    "The United States has it's own propaganda, but it's very effective because people don't realize that it's propaganda. And it's subtle, but it's actually a much stronger propaganda machine than the Nazis had but it's funded in a different way. With the Nazis it was funded by the government, but in the United States, it's funded by corporations and corporations they only want things to happen that will make people want to buy stuff. So whatever that is, then that is considered okay and good, but that doesn't necessarily mean it really serves people's thinking - it can stupify and make not very good things happen."

    Now THIS is important, because Hollywood is the largest propaganda machine in the history. Have you recently noticed the shift from the "bad Colombian drug lords" to the "Ugly, childish and corrupt Venezuelan government"? As countries polish the shoes of the country, they get to pass the "bad looking" press Hollywood can make.

  19. Correlation to govt activity? by boundary · · Score: 1

    I'd be interested to see if there are any correlations between dips in this rating and the occurrence of election years. Also whether or not this is at all cyclical based on whether a government is in its first or later term.

  20. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

    "They Live" was Rowdy Roddy Pipers crowning cinematographic masterpiece.

  21. Not an honest report by mike1210 · · Score: 0

    These "press freedom" rankings are obvious bullshit.

    In at least two of these countries ranked higher than the United States on this list, one can be arrested by asserting that certain historical events did not happen as alleged.

    That, and there's no way the servile, state-dominated press of places like Sweden can outrank the United States in any honest report.

  22. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am the tool of the government
    And industry too
    For I am destined to rule
    And regulate you

    I may be vile and pernicious
    But you can't look away
    I make you think Im delicious
    With the stuff that I say
    I am the best you can get
    Have you guessed me yet?
    I am the slime oozin out
    From your tv set

    -- Frank Zappa "The Slime"

  23. Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by Brad1138 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The arrest of journalist Kristyna Wentz-Graff was not part of some systematic crack down on reporters/journalists. At best it was a swamped cop dealing with a large group and not noticing her credentials, at worst it was an idiot cop, maybe both. To infer, as I think the FA does, that the US is arresting journalists as part of some nation wide crackdown is completely false, or at least very misleading.

    --
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    1. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Most likely it was a group of people who were ordered to disperse and were then arrested when they refused. A press badge doesn't give her a pass to ignore police orders.

    2. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by binarstu · · Score: 1

      To infer, as I think the FA does, that the US is arresting journalists as part of some nation wide crackdown is completely false, or at least very misleading.

      I think you mean "imply", not "infer".

      Here's what the article says: "The United States (47th) also owed its fall of 27 places to the many arrests of journalist covering Occupy Wall Street protests." How does that suggest a "nation wide crackdown"? The article merely states what actually happened; i.e., many journalists were arrested. I don't see anything misleading about that.

    3. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you read the other linked article:

      After months of journalist arrests and press suppression at Occupy Wall Street-inspired protests, the United States has dropped significantly in the rankings.

      According to this report, the U.S. has dropped 27 places to 47th in the world. This is especially troubling as we head into an election year which is sure to spark new conflicts between police and press covering rallies, protests and political events.

      It seems to me that they're inferring arrests at Occupy Whatever protests mean we are "sure" to see conflicts between police and reporters covering political events.

    4. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by mounthood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The arrest of journalist Kristyna Wentz-Graff was not part of some systematic crack down on reporters/journalists. At best it was a swamped cop dealing with a large group and not noticing her credentials, at worst it was an idiot cop, maybe both. To infer, as I think the FA does, that the US is arresting journalists as part of some nation wide crackdown is completely false, or at least very misleading.

      ... and calling for the murder of Julian Assange was just a misunderstanding. Seriously, what facts or reasoning do you have to offer? You attribute the arrests to idiocy, but who knows for sure. If you're thinking that not enough journalists were arrested, maybe it's about quality and not quantity. How may other journalists learned of her arrest, and decided they'd better follow the rules? Also, do you know how many journalists were arrested? I don't.

      The Occupy protests were not covered fairly by the corporate media. If Reporters Without Borders got the reasons wrong, thinking it was arrests instead of journalists being house-trained and leashed minions of multinationals, they still got to the right conclusion.

      --
      tomorrow who's gonna fuss
    5. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's misleading because it implies they were arrested because they were journalists covering the ows story. The arrests had nothing to do with the fact they were journalists, they were in no way stopped from writing their story afterwards. The arrests should not have factored into the rating at all. It's like if a couple of random journalists had beat their spouses, been arrested, and then citing that as a reason for the ratings downgrade.

    6. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by superwiz · · Score: 1

      The question, then, is how was the police officer responsible punished for the arrest? Because if he wasn't that just means that police are free to arrest journalists "by mistake" whenever they judge necessary. Tacit acquiescence of a arresting of journalist is, in fact, an attack on journalism.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    7. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you actually believe that or are you just inclined to defend the misdeeds of the US government out of that blind "USA! USA!"-patriotism that said government loves to foster as a propaganda tool?

    8. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      The arrest of journalist Kristyna Wentz-Graff was not part of some systematic crack down on reporters/journalists. At best it was a swamped cop dealing with a large group and not noticing her credentials, at worst it was an idiot cop, maybe both. To infer, as I think the FA does, that the US is arresting journalists as part of some nation wide crackdown is completely false, or at least very misleading.

      However, incidents like this have hapened a huge number of times.
      Or like this.
      Or this.
      Or this.
      Or this.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    9. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      Note to self: always use preview. Always. Here is the corrected post.

      The arrest of journalist Kristyna Wentz-Graff was not part of some systematic crack down on reporters/journalists. At best it was a swamped cop dealing with a large group and not noticing her credentials, at worst it was an idiot cop, maybe both. To infer, as I think the FA does, that the US is arresting journalists as part of some nation wide crackdown is completely false, or at least very misleading.

      However, incidents like this have hapened a huge number of times.
      Or like this.
      Or this.
      Or this.
      Or this.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    10. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      The journalists were arrested while covering a story, so it does count. Even if it wasn't part of an organized campaign, cops arresting journalists because they can't be bothered, or haven't been trained to check credentials is a bad thing.

    11. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by Brad1138 · · Score: 1

      (off topic for a sec) Although I fundamentally agree with a lot of what the occupy movement is protesting against, it is not that simple. The occupy protests around the US and probably the world attract all the homeless/druggies/drunks and generally destroy whatever area they choose to camp out at. If they refuse to leave when they are ordered to you can't complain about them being handled roughly.

      Back on topic, I think it has a lot to do with there being so many "journalists" these days. Everyone has a blog and easily can be a "reporter". At some point, with all the disruption the occupy protests cause, they just become another face in the crowd. I still say it is not part of a crackdown on "media", there is just a larger % of them getting caught in the wake of the occupy movement. This is a HUGE country and a few of these incidents aren't the big deal they are being made out to be.

      --
      If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    12. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by Brad1138 · · Score: 1

      The occupy protests started off well intentioned, but have devolved into not much more than a gathering of homeless, illiterate hippies and morons. There isn't much for "corporate media" to cover.

      --
      If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    13. Re:Journalist arrest not a crack down on media. by Brad1138 · · Score: 1

      I don't defend my government at all, I hate a lot of the things it does. I, however, see nothing pointing to some mandate from Washington DC to rough up and/or arrest reporters.

      --
      If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
  24. Falling over 100%?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Only Chile, who dropped from 33 to 80, joined the U.S. in falling over 100% of their previous ranking."

    To fall 100%, the US would have had to have fallen from 27 to 54. It fell to 47 so it isn't joining Chile.

  25. But, but, but... by mrquagmire · · Score: 0

    We're FREE here in 'Murica!!!! [fingers in ears] *la la la la la la la la la....*

    --
    giggity
  26. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Xyrus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    To quote Brother George Carlin:

    The real owners are the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians, they're an irrelevancy. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They've long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the statehouses, the city halls. They've got the judges in their back pockets. And they own all the big media companies, so that they control just about all of the news and information you hear. They've got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want; they want more for themselves and less for everybody else.

    But I'll tell you what they don't want. They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that. That doesn't help them. That's against their interests. They don't want people who are smart enough to sit around the kitchen table and figure out how badly they're getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago.

    You know what they want? Obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork but just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it. And, now, they're coming for your Social Security. They want your fucking retirement money. They want it back, so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They'll get it. They'll get it all, sooner or later, because they own this fucking place. It's a big club, and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club.

    This country is finished.

    --
    ~X~
  27. I do wonder by superwiz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If they consider direct media ownership by government officials as impinging on freedom of information. For example, Italy's Berlusconi owned controlling interest in much of Italy's media. He received quite a bit more consideration than any other politician would in the modern era. For any other politician a sex scandal would have been a blow to their career, while Berlusconi was only sank by Italy's near bankruptcy. As another example, on the same note, there is very little negative coverage of mayor of New York Michael Bloomberg. While he does not technically run the company, he does own Bloomberg LP which owns Bloomberg TV and US News. He is an unmarried man and most people don't even know the name of his girlfriend(girlfriends?). This is quite a fit for a politician of such high visibility. Clearly, the more media a politician owns, the less negative or controversial coverage they get.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    1. Re:I do wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://wasteofmyoxygen.wordpress.com/2008/11/16/msnbc-rewarded-for-obama-support-with-ge-bailout-money/

      That reminded me of Obama basically buying MSNBC coverage using US taxpayer money to do it. Back at the time GE was in complete ownership of NBC/MSNBC when they got their $140 Billion or so, and I remember them not running a single negative story about Obama no matter what he did. Apparently I missed them changing their slogan to "Change we can believe in" because I stopped watching any of it since it became so blatent.

      So as bad as a politician owning a news outlet is, I think its worse to bribe them with tax payer money. At least Bloomberg built the company up himself.

    2. Re:I do wonder by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      If they consider direct media ownership by government officials as impinging on freedom of information. For example, Italy's Berlusconi owned controlling interest in much of Italy's media. He received quite a bit more consideration than any other politician would in the modern era. For any other politician a sex scandal would have been a blow to their career, while Berlusconi was only sank by Italy's near bankruptcy.

      Perhaps that's some or all of why Italy is 67th on their list (down from 49th in the 2010 listing).

    3. Re:I do wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't need direct ownership of the media here in the US. We have NPR.

  28. Today's news on ./ -- particularly depressing by grahamsaa · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is just another in a succession of stories on ./ today that has deeply shaken my faith in democracy and liberty in the civilized world. Earlier today (or maybe last night) there was a story posted about proposed legislation that would require ISPs to log all internet activity of customers in HI for 2 years, which would be accessible to law enforcement (or just about anyone) without a warrant or court order. Add to this the articles about DMCA exemptions for jailbreaking of devices, which are about to expire, and ACTA being signed by 22 European countries. Today, ./ also brought news of the demise of the market for used console games (thanks to Microsoft), the NASDAQ delisting a broadcasting company under pressure from the Chinese government, and a new law that would provide for indefinite logging and retention of online activity of Australian citizens.

    SOPA may be on hold, but I fear that we might be losing the war against big content providers and others who want to restrict our rights for financial or political gain. While I appreciate being made aware of these troubling developments, I find today's news to be incredibly distressing and depressing. While the war isn't over, I feel the balance is beginning to shift against us. What else can we do to tip the scales?

    --
    Facts have a liberal bias.
    1. Re:Today's news on ./ -- particularly depressing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "While the war isn't over, I feel the balance is beginning to shift against us. What else can we do to tip the scales?"

      Organize and revolt, breath down the necks of these companies and those who work for them, make their lives a living hell, cause a ruckus. Violence is always an option. The real problem is human beings have turned into pansies - they no longer consider violence against these people an option. You can't reason with the unreasonable. Many people are still too comfortable, ignorant and uninformed. Many people still aren't even aware or don't care about these issues.

      Watching the corruption and law spiral out of control is like what people watching the rise of hitler felt in germany.

    2. Re:Today's news on ./ -- particularly depressing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fucking site is called Slashdot, retard, not ./. As in http colon slash slash slashdot dot org. We need a reeducation camp for seven digit uids.

    3. Re:Today's news on ./ -- particularly depressing by khipu · · Score: 1

      This is just another in a succession of stories on ./ today that has deeply shaken my faith in democracy and liberty in the civilized world.

      That's because you aren't thinking and questioning. While there are certainly plenty of things wrong with government intruding into freedom of speech and freedom of the press (a joint effort between Republicans and Democrats), this particular index attests only to two things: the utter incompetence of those compiling it and your gullibility in believing it. If you actually look at how the index was created, you see that it is little more than a self-assessment of journalists in each country. Imagine what the responses would have been like if you had sent that kind of survey to the government-selected journalists of Nazi Germany.

      The fact that this level of incompetence hasn't caused a groundswell of outrage from reporters tells you only one thing: most reporters must be completely incompetent when it comes to statistics, data, or sound reasoning. Take that into account next time you read a story in the news. And then go out and check the data yourself, because journalists primarily give you rumors, hearsay and ideology, not rational analysis and fact checking.

      Earlier today (or maybe last night) there was a story posted about proposed legislation that would require ISPs to log all internet activity of customers in HI for 2 years,

      The EU already has equivalent legislation on the books. In the US, there's a good chance it won't stand (see also the recent SCOTUS decision).

    4. Re:Today's news on ./ -- particularly depressing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please read the characters . and / out loud, and then read the domain name in your URL bar out loud. Do you notice a difference?

      CAPTCHA: referent

  29. Dubious by Dave+Emami · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'm not going to claim that the US is perfect with regards to the press, but most of RSF's complaints seem questionable to me -- in particular, those regarding covering the Occupy movement. If you put yourself in the middle of a crowd control situation, you risk being lumped in with the crowd, even if you're just covering it, especially since there were a fair number of people who were part of the protest movement while operating in a quasi-journalist mode as well (taking pics/vids to post, etc). Whether you agree with (say) the police clearing out a park where the protestors are camped, someone who is ordered to get out and doesn't, is going to get arrested, whether they're a report or not. I'm not condoning police getting out of control, but it's not a press freedom issue just because some journalists get swept up in it.

    There are a few more things like that, regarding countries other than the United States, in the full report. For example, India gets dinged because "journalists were exposed to violence stemming from the persistent conflicts in the states of Chhattisgarh and Jammu and Kashmir." Umm, if you go into a war zone, you run the risk of being "exposed to violence." It's as if RSF expects journalists to be surrounded by some sort of holy aura whenever they go into chaotic or even deadly situations. Don't get me wrong, I have great admiration for the reporters brave enough to cover a war, but it's only a violation of press freedom if they get targeted because they're journalists.

    --

    "The Greens lynched a hacker in Chicago. Last month, but I think the body's still hanging from the old Water Tower."
    1. Re:Dubious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...but it's not a press freedom issue just because some journalists get swept up in it.

      ...and why isn't it?

    2. Re:Dubious by Dave+Emami · · Score: 1

      ...but it's not a press freedom issue just because some journalists get swept up in it.

      ...and why isn't it?

      Because the goal of the action is something other than silencing the journalists. Press freedom is violated when something bad is done to someone because they are a journalist, not when something is done to someone who merely happens to be a journalist. If I'm a news cameraman covering a story, and someone takes my camera to stop me from covering it, that's a violation of press freedom. If they take it because it's valuable and they want to sell it, it's not. That isn't to say it's not a bad thing, it just doesn't have anything to do with journalism qua journalism. To use the report's complaint about India, if Kashmiri separatists round up a bunch of people, one of whom is a reporter, and machinegun them, that's an atrocity, but it has nothing to do with press freedom. If another reporter comes along, takes pictures, and they shoot him to stop him from getting the story out, that is a press freedom issue.

      --

      "The Greens lynched a hacker in Chicago. Last month, but I think the body's still hanging from the old Water Tower."
  30. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 2

    Fifteen years sitting in prison is punishment. But 15 years sitting in front of a television set is entertainment.

    But I enjoy watching TV shows (not all of them, the ones I chose to wach). I would not enjoy sitting in prison. I would much prefer to do things that I enjoy than things I don't enjoy. Why is it shocking then that I should spend a lot of time doing something I enjoy -- without coercion naturally -- instead of something I don't?

    It's not particularly democratic (or respectful of other individuals) to disregard individual preferences even when you might have different ones. This sort of haughty attitude doesn't further your cause either -- it makes it seem like you don't respect other's choices and want to substitute your own.

  31. Primitive laws and culture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some more primitive states in the USA do not have laws requiring the reporting of abuse. My state has had them for a long time. Prior to those laws, every school district had a policy in place to follow and I doubt any of them involved telling the police or the press (that is for management to handle...) If you did you could be fired for insubordination for directly violating the policy and damaging the appearance of the institution or at least punished for it... (don't forget about vindictive administrators who can wait to fire you without reason a year later, unless a union is involved in which case it takes a little more effort and motivation.)

    Since that law was passed nobody gets punished for following the law and if they did, it would be a massive lawsuit and bad press if not possibly criminal charges if they made any kind of attempt to suppress the 'leak'.

    The culture here is warped on the issues by social issues and selfishness; especially the management mentality we have here. It is so bad we HAD to pass a law separating whistle-blowers from their organizational culture and especially the management's sick biases! IT WAS THAT BIG OF A PROBLEM. Now we end up with some over reporting.

    My high school dean was fired for reporting crimes to the press; the school board and principle didn't want the crimes known to the public. They didn't report a lot of what happened because of the city&schools reputation. The Dean was fired for letting the press record a crime and his reward was to be forced into early retirement or be fired. I think he should have gotten fired and gone to the press... our 'right to work' laws ironically undermine all such rights; even more contradictory in labeling than the PATRIOT act.

  32. Comments are easily supplanted like Articles. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you look at what was replaced by the Constitution, is that a bunch of freeloaders called Americans replaced Constitutions article-at-a-time and didn't even pay any consideration for freedoms they supposedly secured.

    Just like how many demand free press and rights to post on Slasdhdot but not one ever payed the hosting bill or the editors and journalists.

  33. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by martin-boundary · · Score: 4, Funny

    I would not enjoy sitting in prison.

    Personally, if they gave me my own spacious cave/cell like Hannibal Lecter with free WIFI for reading slashdot and visiting FBI trainees asking about C++ rules for sequence points, I'd consider it.

  34. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That seems like a kind of "big fish in a small pond" comparison.

  35. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Pseudonym+Authority · · Score: 1

    Maybe the writers and producers have their own ideas, and as one perceived evil falls apart, they focus on the next. Nah, it can't be that they fancy themselves artist, it's because they are getting payed by Columbians!

  36. And the ranking means what? by Karmashock · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This thing reminds me of the doomsday clock.

    It's just the opinion of a group of people... the validity of the claim is entirely dependent on their judgment.

    Here's a question... what is their judgement rating? Anyone bother to rank them? Is there ever an audit of their reliability?

    If not... then how do we know that the broken thermometer isn't telling us it's getting colder or warmer? Have to test the instruments.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:And the ranking means what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the ranking means what?

      I'd say this ranking means as much to you, as the S&P/Moody's credit ratings mean to countries outside the US.
      Question : How coverage did you see on SOPA/PIPA in the "news"?
      The answer is none.
      How does such a dramatic proposed change to the social, cultural, and economic landscape of a nation get utterly ignored by its "news"? One possible reason is because that nation once measured 27 on an index whicht measures these things, but has now fallen to 47.
      Personally, I think you are asking all the right questions, but of all the wrong people. But good on ya' mate, keep treddin'...

    2. Re:And the ranking means what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Noooooooo, it cannot be! USA! USA! We are number one! They must be wrong! USA! USA!"
      - OP

    3. Re:And the ranking means what? by Dilaudid · · Score: 1

      One thing I noticed is they didn't proof-read their press releases. I guess broken english is appropriate though, since they are representing journalists. "The United States (47th) also owed its fall of 27 places to the many arrests of journalist covering Occupy Wall Street protests." http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2011-2012,1043.html

    4. Re:And the ranking means what? by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Not really.

      Moody's etc is something people actually make policy decisions on. No one is changing their plans because this organization changed a rating.

      There is no one that was thinking about doing something related to media that saw their ranking and said OH NOES that organization no one cares about changed their rating!

      Reality check... they don't matter.

      I say this to totally devalue your point. Clearly all the rating agencies are in need of credibility after their many failures. It just hyperbole to directly relate the two. After all people do make different financial choices based on what Moody's says but no one is doing anything differently because of this group.

      anyway, I appreciated your comment. Keep treddin'...

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    5. Re:And the ranking means what? by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      There weren't many journalists arrested. It was a widely covered event. It would very hard... impossible really... to claim with any credibility that those protests were covered up or that journalists were suppressed from covering it.

      The group appears to be more biased and full of beans then I had previously believed.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  37. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

    Like AC, I'm the exception to the rule. I don't watch television. But, that doesn't affect GP's post, or the analysis in the post. For 50 years, I've watched family and friends sitting in front of that boob tube, allowing their thoughts and views to be shaped by the news, by advertising, by the "entertainment" industry. Like sheep, people watch those media hucksters so that they know what to think, how to act, when and where to shop, and what to buy, what to eat.

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  38. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See? Now you know why it's so important to lock up all these internet 'pirates' who threaten this most important propaganda apparatus. We must pass SOPA and PIPA and extend copyright indefinitely. And it would be most wise to look up who funded the Nazi government. Hint: It was private enterprise. A fact that a few goofy, phony baloney 'libertarians' just won't accept, and will defend any authoritarian regime to the death if there's something in it for them

  39. Re:Take God out of stuff, this is what you get. by grahamsaa · · Score: 2

    "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's" -- Matthew 22:21

    The "God" of your understanding has no place in politics, and if you're really worried about "gays" corrupting society, I think you're pretty misguided. Do you follow all of the commandments of the old testament? Do you still eat shellfish? "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." -- Leviticus 11:10

    NB -- I'm not religious, but grew up in a very religious family, and I can cite scripture chapter and verse all night long -- I guess I can thank my crazy parents for something!

    --
    Facts have a liberal bias.
  40. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by grasshoppa · · Score: 3, Funny

    Get rid of scheduled lunches and other breaks, and you could call it work without a hint of sarcasm.

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
  41. Re:Take God out of stuff, this is what you get. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's" -- Matthew 22:21

    The "God" of your understanding has no place in politics, and if you're really worried about "gays" corrupting society, I think you're pretty misguided. Do you follow all of the commandments of the old testament? Do you still eat shellfish? "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." -- Leviticus 11:10

    NB -- I'm not religious, but grew up in a very religious family, and I can cite scripture chapter and verse all night long -- I guess I can thank my crazy parents for something!

    good scripture. The point I was trying to make and probably will fail miserably, when we had some morals (based on the bible), things weren't nearly as nuts. Your probably right, God shouldn't be in politics, he is too smart for that. :) As far as Gay's rights, why does it seem more acceptable than getting prayer in schools, if we offend one person heaven forbid, when you take prayer (or the right to pray), this could offend many and it's banned. Yup, I guess 6 1/2 yrs of being saved and I'm a thumper. My heart hurts everyday for our country going south.

    And no, for the record, when Jesus died on the cross and was raised. All the old testament stuff was "washed away". Or so I believe. I'm free in Christ and have a responsibility to speak up. "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin" Leviticus 18:22 Not my words, those are God's.

  42. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by mjwx · · Score: 1

    I would not enjoy sitting in prison.

    Personally, if they gave me my own spacious cave/cell like Hannibal Lecter with free WIFI for reading slashdot and visiting FBI trainees asking about C++ rules for sequence points, I'd consider it.

    In reality, the only time you get your own glass cage is when you cant stop other prisoners from throwing urine on you.

    In that case, shower time would also be quite an adventure for you.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  43. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Ihmhi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You know, this is like the fifth time that I've seen this on Slashdot in the last week. Even so, this is copypasta I can get behind.

    At least it doesn't start "Fear, control, etc." and then start ranting about the Zionist conspiracy towards a one world government or something like that...

  44. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by mosb1000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm going to have do disagree with George Carlin on the last part of that. What they want is more than enough for themselves, and less than enough for everybody else. That way the can live high on the hog while being securely in charge of everything because everyone else is scrambling to get by. For our parents generation, this meant making people believe they needed more stuff, because there was just way to much of it. But it will not be the same for us. We will all be working our fingers to be bone while our parents retire in relative comfort. Retirement funds and social security will be protected, but younger people will work themselves to death for it. The last round of economic bailouts proved that strategy would work, so we'll probably seeing more of it over the next couple decades.

  45. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 1

    In "They Live" was the first instance of , "It's time to kick some ass and chew bubble gum...and I just ran out of gum!"

    Only newfags think that saying started with Duke Nukem.

  46. Re:Take God out of stuff, this is what you get. by grahamsaa · · Score: 2

    I appreciate you having the courage to reply -- it would be nice if you didn't do it as an AC, but I can't really fault you for that.

    I think that the Bible, and particularly the New Testament offers pretty good guidance on a lot of thorny moral and philosophical issues (though I reserve the right to disagree at times). I picked up on your assault on "gays" because homosexuality and shellfish are given essentially the same treatment in Leviticus -- both are an "abomination". You could interpret that to mean that homosexuality is bad, or you could interpret it as meaning that homosexuality is no worse than eating shellfish, which most anti-gay advocates do.

    The old testament says a bunch of contradictory things as well, which I won't go into here, but I would be happy to discuss at length if you're interested. What I'm more interested in addressing is the new testament and the core values it promotes: that we love our neighbor (broadly interpreted to mean every human being) as ourselves, and that we see spirituality as something that is personal and not political. Nowhere in the new testament did Jesus try to impose his belief system on others. He had followers, but they were free to come and go as they pleased, and governed themselves as they saw fit. Jesus was a revolutionary figure; if he were alive today he would likely oppose all armed conflict and would spend most of his time deriding the rich (as he did during his lifetime). You may think that being homosexual is bad, but the only qualities that Jesus consistently spoke out against were greed, selfishness and inordinate wealth. And if you believe that all the old testament stuff was "washed away", I don't see how you justify being against homosexuality at all, at least scripturally. The new testament is good news for believers. It says, among other things, that you can eat shrimp and be faithful in private. It also means that you should probably take the "beam" out of your own eye before attempting to fix someone else (see Matthew 7:5).

    Again, I'm not religious at all, I just know scripture pretty well.

    --
    Facts have a liberal bias.
  47. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

    Great movie.

    Another great one is: Network (1976)

    Some great quotes there ...

    Howard Beale: [arms outstretched to the heavens] Edward George Ruddy died today! Edward George Ruddy was the Chairman of the Board of the Union Broadcasting Systems, and he died at eleven o'clock this morning of a heart condition, and woe is us! We're in a lot of trouble!
    Howard Beale: [calmly strolling toward the audience] So. A rich little man with white hair died. What has that got to do with the price of rice, right? And *why* is that woe to us? Because you people, and sixty-two million other Americans, are listening to me right now. Because less than three percent of you people read books! Because less than fifteen percent of you read newspapers! Because the only truth you know is what you get over this tube. Right now, there is a whole, an entire generation that never knew anything that didn't come out of this tube! This tube is the Gospel, the ultimate revelation. This tube can make or break presidents, popes, prime ministers... This tube is the most awesome God-damned force in the whole godless world, and woe is us if it ever falls in to the hands of the wrong people, and that's why woe is us that Edward George Ruddy died. Because this company is now in the hands of CCA - the Communication Corporation of America. There's a new Chairman of the Board, a man called Frank Hackett, sitting in Mr. Ruddy's office on the twentieth floor. And when the twelfth largest company in the world controls the most awesome God-damned propoganda force in the whole godless world, who knows what shit will be peddled for truth on this network?
    Howard Beale: [ascending the stage] So, you listen to me. Listen to me: Television is not the truth! Television is a God-damned amusement park! Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God! Go to your gurus! Go to yourselves! Because that's the only place you're ever going to find any real truth.

    I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV's while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, 'Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone.' Well, I'm not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot - I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get mad. You've got to say, 'I'm a HUMAN BEING, God damn it! My life has VALUE!' So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!' I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got

  48. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

    One of those rare movies that managed to fold some social commentary into a good action flick. The other one that pulled it off was Robocop which might even be more apropos.

    --
    If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
  49. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bob: You stupid ignorant little girl. You think you can just pout and decide that you don't want to play anymore? I mean where do you think you are? Don't you understand anything that I've said?
    Maggie: I mean it.
    Bob: You don't know what you're talking about.
    Maggie: I'm through! I'm out!
    Bob: Listen, which word don't you understand? There is no out, there is no through, there is no out!

    "you don't respect other's choices"

    WOOSH! And the post went right over your programmed head.

  50. Skeptical about one of the top rankings by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Icelandic journalists complain of losing libel cases when all they've done is to publish court records, of fear of retaliation, and of a climate of self-censorship.

    One broadcaster was hit with an injunction to prevent them from publishing details about banking misconduct.

    Iceland was one of the top-rated countries in that report.

    1. Re:Skeptical about one of the top rankings by Inda · · Score: 2

      All countries are shit. Some are shittier than others.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    2. Re:Skeptical about one of the top rankings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was wondering about that too. It's my understanding that libel is much easier to get hit with in much of Europe than it is in the US.

      I don't know, I find it difficult to believe there's no bias in this. The organization is French-based and a consultant of the UN. Europe, in general, has a pretty low opinion of the US government (not that it's without reason but that could still result in an unfair bias) and the UN isn't the US's biggest fan either. Still, to have a place like Tanzania (which the UN has ranked as a pretty freaking miserable place to live) outrank so many other countries that are probably much better than the listing would have one believe. And it seems strange to have Papua New Guinea on there when so many of its people are illiterate. Why would you bother to crack down on journalists if no one can read anyway?

      Look, the US has major problems. Journalists go to jail despite being protected by shield laws, they're threatened, bribed, arrested... I still don't think any of that is common enough to warrant not even its level but to be ranked below some fairly horrible countries? Sure, OWS was crazy, but New York City, despite what its residents may believe, is NOT the United States of America.

      On another note, I'm ashamed to admit that I've never even heard of Eritrea until today. Shame on me. Need to pick up a geography book and brush up one of these days.

    3. Re:Skeptical about one of the top rankings by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Was that before or after their economic crash and the great improvements in transparency that followed?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  51. Give Obama THE Finger Day 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A day of national rejoice.

    A day of national gratitude.

    A day when WE say unmistakably to the President of the United States of America to FUCK OFF and BE DEAD.

    A day to rejoice.

    PS: the tarmac trama was a "Lovers Quarrel"! Obama-Boy will be the first sitting, alive or dead Pres, to Ax (aka Lizzie Borden) his married wife for a blonde "[Wh]'ore.

    Snicker snicker

  52. *sigh*... It's a little different by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    When he says Militarization, he means tanks, heavy automatic weapons and other military grade equipment & tactics. Also, he means the laws to back it up. The patriot act was used against American citizens on US Soil (e.g. provisions of it were employed to allow coordination against protestors). The level of organization, manpower and resources that went into crushing the Occupy Wall Street movement makes the 60s era anti-civil rights movement look like a bunch of hillbillies doing a civil war re-enactment.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:*sigh*... It's a little different by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Ah, do tell! Please...save it. You're a punk

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    2. Re:*sigh*... It's a little different by steppedleader · · Score: 1

      Since you don't seem to be aware, National Guard != Police

    3. Re:*sigh*... It's a little different by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Makes no difference when used against civilians.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    4. Re:*sigh*... It's a little different by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It makes difference in a sense that police going to detain some "criminals" is not by itself headline worthy in the eyes of most readers - it's just too routine - while National Guard used to "restore public order" at least raises some brows, and leads to more questions. So if you arm the police same as National Guard, that's a convenient way to avoid drawing attention.

  53. You haven't been paying attention have you? by rsilvergun · · Score: 0

    The world's going to hell in a hand basket. Fear is being used to push radical right-wing ideologies just about everywhere. It's pretty hard to imagine anyone improving, much less everyone. This is all understood from context.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:You haven't been paying attention have you? by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      The world's going to hell in a hand basket. Fear is being used to push radical right-wing ideologies just about everywhere. It's pretty hard to imagine anyone improving, much less everyone. This is all understood from context.

      He was just giving an example to prove his (correct) point that dropping N points in an ordered list of how well different performers did on some criterion is not inconsistent with doing better on that criterion. His general point is that your ordinal number in that list indicates only whom you're doing better than, whom you're doing worse than, and whom you're doing as well as for that criterion; it's not as if dropping 27 places ipso facto means you're performing 100% worse on that criterion.

      As he says, "If you want to make relative comparisons like %, you have to look at the finishing times." In this case, it's "look at the actual score"; unfortunately, as the scoring system changed between the 2010 and 2011-2012 rankings:

      In order to have a bigger spread in the scores and increase the differentiation between countries, this year’s questionnaire had more answers assigning negative points. That is why countries at the top of the index have negative scores this year.

      so you can't just compare the scores from 2010 with scores from 2011-2012.

  54. More surprising than Pac-Man NP-hard by mevets · · Score: 0

    Is that the US would have been in the top 20 since the 1970s....
    US "(and I mean quote)media" can't even qualify as a lapdog; unless your lapdog sucks your cock 24/7. After the stories of Nixon (the pardoned traitor) got out, the US news industry has been relegated to being a puppet of the GOP and the industries that own the GOP.

  55. To be taken with a grain of salt by Coeurderoy · · Score: 2

    The ranking is somewhat "arbitrary", for example it puts Equatorial Guinea way over Iran and China, in terms of "press freedom".

    Well, it is more or less impossible for any journalist to go to EG, and there is no written press at all (only one "free publicity mag", and one randomly published government "daily" that comes out about 5 to 10 times a year, and no library, bookshop, ...)

    So of course there is little "oppression", once you suppressed all the press...

    In contrast the press in Iran and China is regularly oppressed but at least exist.

    1. Re:To be taken with a grain of salt by Bigfield · · Score: 1

      Now we get to a question: which is better: A press that does exist but only spreads propaganda or simply non-existing press? When the press does not exist it doesn't at least spread propaganda.

  56. What about Hungary? by KDR_11k · · Score: 2

    Hungary abolished all independent news outlets and moved all public ones under close control of the government while the threat of nationalist-extremists towards any dissenters increases. How the hell are they still at only +10?

    --
    Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    1. Re:What about Hungary? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think most of these laws went into effect on 1.1.2012. This report is about 2011. We'll see a huge drop for Hungary next year.

  57. useless and utterly incompetent by khipu · · Score: 2

    The press freedom index is little more than a compilation of the opinions and beliefs of journalists across the world, based on questionnaires. There is no calibration for cultural differences, no verification or validation, no guarantee of unbiased sampling, little to ensure objectivity. Look at the questionnaire yourself:

    http://www.rsf.org/IMG/pdf/quest_en.pdf

    The very first question is "During [the last year], were there any cases of journalists 1. Being illegally detained (without an arrest warrant, for longer than the maximum period of police custody, without a court appearance etc)?" Now think about that. In what way are random journalists qualified to answer this question? How can they even answer that question? In most cases, legality hasn't even been determined in the courts by then. In countries in which the media are fully or partially controlled or operated by the government, "journalists" would have a strong bias in favor of the government and they would be unlikely to be detained, because anybody critical of the government wouldn't even get hired; yes, to some degree this is true even in Western Europe. And in countries with few legal protections for journalists, detentions of journalists would be much more likely to be legal.

    Mostly, what this attests to is utter incompetence on the part of RSF and the journalists who sign responsible for it.

    1. Re:useless and utterly incompetent by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      There is no calibration for cultural differences

      "My country has a very liberal press, just the other day a photo of a woman revealing her lower nose ran on the front page of the most popular newspaper!"

      "So let's see, you live in Afghanistan...adjusting for cultural differences...good lord you're practically living in a Star Trek utopia!"

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:useless and utterly incompetent by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Oh fuck I used "liberal" inappropriately around Americans. s/liberal press/free press/g.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  58. Re:Take God out of stuff, this is what you get. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fictional characterisations aren't anybody's saviour. Also, gays? What's wrong with that? Animals do it. You know what animals don't do, though? They don't worship a fictional deity. Suck it, bitch, ain't nobody coming to save your arse when you die. You're just going to stop. No heaven, no hell, no haunting, no reincarnation, and most especially, no big blackness of nothing. You just stop.

    Also, the people running big business and government today? They grew up in your fairy tale land of goodness and happy, yet they keep doing their best to screw everyone over. Desperation spreads, and the people are in need.

  59. stop wondering and look at the data by khipu · · Score: 1

    If they consider direct media ownership by government officials as impinging on freedom of information.

    No, they don't. The "index" is a compilation of the responses from journalists in that country. So, in the case of Italy, they sent questionnaires to Berlusconi-owned media outlets and asked them "do you feel oppressed". What do you think the responses were going to be?

    As another example, on the same note, there is very little negative coverage of mayor of New York Michael Bloomberg. While he does not technically run the company, he does own Bloomberg LP which owns Bloomberg TV and US News

    Oh, he would be covered in this kind of report. US journalists might or might not throw dirt at Bloomberg, but in this kind of anonymous survey, their response is likely to be the equivalent of "we here at ____ are not oppressed and are totally rational and independent, but the journalists over at _______ are pressured and biased."

    The fact that Berlusconi owns most of Italy's private media works in favor of Italy's "press freedom index" because most of the people responding are going to work for him. The fact that the US has lots of media outlets with a huge range of political views and financing models, whose journalists often hate each other's guts, works against the US press freedom index, because they all are going to point fingers at each other.

    Apparently, even Berlusconi has trouble to find enough people to present a better picture and doesn't quite have the control of Il Duce yet. But I imagine that if you had sent this to Nazi Germany, its government approved corps of journalists would have given it nearly perfect marks.

    1. Re:stop wondering and look at the data by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      "What do you think the responses were going to be?"

      Apparently there were quite a few yeses because Italy did quite poorly in the rankings, and also fell considerably year-over-year.

      "US journalists might or might not throw dirt at Bloomberg, but in this kind of anonymous survey, their response is likely to be the equivalent of "we here at ____ are not oppressed and are totally rational and independent, but the journalists over at _______ are pressured and biased."

      I see, so on an anonymous survey Italian journalists will lie to cover for their bosses but in the USA the truth will come out because of journalists throwing their colleagues under the bus?

    2. Re:stop wondering and look at the data by khipu · · Score: 1

      Do basic concepts of random samples and surveys just elude you? To put it very simply: the population samples in Italy and the population sampled in the US have not been shown by the survey to be statistically the same, hence comparing their survey responses is meaningless, and the entire ranking is meaningless. That's really all one needs to say in order to reject this "index" as useless.

      Now, if you really want to micro-analyze this: Italy ranks higher than it objectively should, and the US ranks lower than it objectively should. Since Italy starts from such a low place and the US from such a high place, they don't switch despite the results. But the US press does switch with lots of other nations, who should be ranked far below the US. Is that intellectually too complex for you to grasp?

    3. Re:stop wondering and look at the data by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Do the basic concepts of statistics elude you? There were no statistical tests done on that survey, so nobody has claimed the sampling is uniform. No, the survey probably isn't much better than a Slashdot poll, but some of those are interesting too.

      "Italy ranks higher than it objectively should, and the US ranks lower than it objectively should."

      Wait, you just blasted the survey for not being statically rigorous and now you're going to made statements with no justification at all and call them objective? Yes, your reasoning is definitely eluding my grasp, but I'm not sure it's for intellectual reasons.

  60. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Stuarticus · · Score: 2

    You work for Foxconn too?

    --
    If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
  61. Re:Take God out of stuff, this is what you get. by FrkyD · · Score: 2

    But since Leviticus is from the Old Testament, the command to not practice homosexuality would have been washed away no?

    And no, for the record, when Jesus died on the cross and was raised. All the old testament stuff was "washed away". Or so I believe. I'm free in Christ and have a responsibility to speak up. "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin" Leviticus 18:22 Not my words, those are God's.

  62. Y'all keep voting for the authoritarian candidates by Colin+Smith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Who promise wam fuzzies of one type or another.

    It isn't left vs right. It's authoritarian vs autarchic.

    There are a couple of ironies which are missed in American politics. It's rather bewildering to watch from the outside.

    1. On the liberal side: How can liberal ideals, which are literally those which pertain to being free, possibly be accomplished by handing more authority to a centralised bureaucracy?

    2. On the conservative side: How can conservative ideals, such as lower taxation possibly be accomplished by increasing legislation, rules, regulations on social issues like abortion, drugs or increasing spending on military or law enforcement?

    Both points of view, liberal and conservative are logically inconsistent with the methods being used to achieve them.

    It seems to me that you are voting along the wrong axes. The true axis is authoritarian vs autarchic (I won't use the word "liberal" because the meaning has been perverted) and both sides; republican and democrat are authoritarian.

    --
    Deleted
  63. geez louise, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what a bunch of Euro-worshipping metrosexual apologists there are on Slashtard! ROFLMAO!

  64. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by Siridar · · Score: 1

    *throwing* urine at you? Methinks that there would be a altogether more direct delivery method.

  65. Reporters index by binkless · · Score: 1

    Reporters without borders is about protecting the special prerogatives of professional journalists. It is their habit to conflate these privileges with freedom of expression. Really this is just an index of how free reporters are to thumb their noses at local law and custom, not the ability of the populace to publish dissenting views. Sometimes the two align, sometimes not.

  66. Re:Y'all keep voting for the authoritarian candida by Courageous · · Score: 1

    The "liberal" side is somewhat socialistic, and the "conservative" side somewhat authoritarian. Regardless, both are big government. Without a shadow of a doubt.

  67. Double standard? by blackfireuponus · · Score: 1

    Most murder stories don't cover the religion of those involved in the U.S. Most murders are Christians murdering other Christians.

    Granted, most U.S. citizens are Christian. Maybe there is a good reason to point out the religion, but you didn't make a case for it.

    Do you think we should always discuss religion in murder stories, or only bring religion into it if its Islam? Fox News takes the latter stance.

  68. Re:Y'all keep voting for the authoritarian candida by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

    The "liberal" side is somewhat socialistic, and the "conservative" side somewhat authoritarian. Regardless, both are big government. Without a shadow of a doubt.

    Well, the liberals in charge, certainly haven't had much a problem with passing authoritarian laws and regs....NDAA anyone?

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  69. Not all speech is free by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    Nor should all speech be entirely free.

    There's the canonical case of shouting "fire!" in a crowded movie theatre. There's also fraud -- outright lies intended to deceive and defraud are not protected either, and can be successfully prosecuted. Murdoch's entire business seems to consist of this. And, if memory serves, it's also why the equivalent of Fox News Canada was not allowed to open up shop -- the Canadian courts deemed it inappropriate to hawk known lies as news.

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  70. Re:Take God out of stuff, this is what you get. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    Good one. I also enjoy the bit about mixed fabrics. Jehovah's witnesses love it when you ask to check the tag in their shirts. My favourite though, is Exodus 21:17 (a commandment!):

    "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."

    Which is repeated (for emphasis, presumably) in Leviticus 20:9, and Jesus doesn't seem to be particularly against it in Matthew 15:4, which puts it in the old AND new testaments.

    A commandment to commit honour killings in the bible. Personally, if I didn't have a problem using the bible as a moral guide before that one, I certainly would after.

  71. Re:Take God out of stuff, this is what you get. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

    Your history needs a little work. The US was founded as a secular nation. The religion wasn't injected back into your government until after WWII (except for "in God we trust" on coins). So unless you're counting 18th century and prior Europe and/or the post-1956 US as "when we had some morals (based on the bible)", you've got a problem. Personally burning heretics and arresting people for allegedly associating with people who might think communism is a neat idea isn't what I'd consider "[not nearly] as nuts."

    Of course, most of our morality, including most of what's in the bible, considerably predates it. Particularly the new testament. Speaking of which, if the old testament was "washed away," why do you keep quoting it?

  72. Re:Y'all keep voting for the authoritarian candida by fyllyr · · Score: 1

    Thank you Collin, I believe this is the most intelligent thing I have heard on Slashdot today (and by heard I mean read. I suppose I could have deleted heard and wrote read (by wrote I mean typed) but my level of OCD doesn't allow me to correct it that way (it's all about knowing your disorder)). Have a great day (or morning, afternoon, evening, night).

    --
    You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.- Nietzsche
  73. "we have to pass it to know what's in it" by Sans_A_Cause · · Score: 1

    Why is this absolute bullshit repeated non-stop about the ACA? Or some other bullshit variant like "we have to pass it to see what's in it"? Nancy Pelosi never said that. Nobody ever said that. It is as accurate as saying Al Gore claimed he invented the internet. I guess if you repeat a lie enough, people really do believe it.

  74. Re:Take God out of stuff, this is what you get. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    Yeah I LOL'd hard at that one. "Forget all that old testament stuff, but fuck gays (in a non-sexual way), look at this Old Testament quote that backs me up."

    Leviticus, the book of crazy. Christians would do well to just pretend it doesn't exist. I kind of pity the more level-headed Christians who have to deal with this heaping pile of anti-Christian ammunition.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  75. Yay Canada at #10! by DemonGenius · · Score: 1

    Although the CBC tends to lean more to the views of the Right, which recently prohibited scientists from speaking to the public without government permission. Maybe we shouldn't be rated this high...

  76. Re:"I've got one that can SEE!" -- They Live by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    I wonder when that quote is from? That would be interesting.

  77. Freedom of The Press is in the FIRST amendment by jweller13 · · Score: 1

    Very disappointing. Particularly so considering that the drafters of the constitution placed freedom of the press smack dab in the FIRST amendment.