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Mozart and Bach Handel Subway Station Crime
Hugh Pickens writes "The Minneapolis Star-Tribune reports that transit officials have started to get a handel on subway crime when they started playing Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, and Strauss at the Lake Street light-rail station after neighborhood residents complained about the station becoming a haven for rowdy teens and vagrants. 'If it encourages some people to wander away because it's not their favorite type of music, I guess that's OK,' says Acting Transit Police Chief A.J. Olson. The program is modeled after one is Portland that has shown early signs of success, though the numbers are so small as to be statistically insignificant and even supporters of the music haven't reached a consensus on whether such environmental changes actually deter crime or just push it down the block. Not everyone is sold on using 'lovely lovely Ludwig Van' as a deterrent. 'Classical music lovers hate the fact that urban planners use classical music to disperse youth,' says Minneapolis City Council Member Gary Schiff. 'Does it chase crime away?' adds Olson. 'It's hard to measure. But I do think it makes it a more pleasant place to wait for a train.'"
How much does it cost to do this and how much less does the city have to pay for security?
Maybe they got a 'Händel' on crime.
[...]has shown early signs of success, though the numbers are so small as to be statistically insignificant [...]
In other words, no significant effect of the music on crime statistics has been measured. Or am I missing something?
Must be a sign of the times. The risk here is of course that others will be turned away from classical music because it starts to remind them of the subway....
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
The first and foremost advantage is to have a pleasant wait for your train. I would love to have classical music at my train stations.
If it can act as a deterrent for inamical people, I take it as a bonus.
Video of some good progressive thrash music
Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, and Strauss - The Gangbusters
"When all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail."
This isn't a particularly new idea. I know that certain shopping centres here in the UK have been using it for quite some time.
I've got mixed feelings. It's certainly unpleasant to have large groups of feral youths hanging around shopping centres and in principle, something that encourages them to be elsewhere without much fuss is a good thing. On the other hand... it just shifts the problem around. I'd rather have the gang of feral youths stood menacingly inside the brightly lit CCTV-infested shopping centre than in the unlit, unguarded car park outside.
At least using music for this is better than some of the alternatives. I know that one idea that was briefly used was high pitched noise emitters - the theory being that with young people generally being able to hear higher ranges than adults, only they would be irritated by the noise. I objected to this one very strongly indeed - the noise was outright painful (my hearing is odd - I'm bad at sorting conversation from background noise, but seem to have retained my ability to hear very high ranges) and it was indiscriminate. It was offensive to the "good kid" going shopping for their parents as it was to the feral youth looking for his next mugging victim. I seem to remember that particular trick had to be pulled due to legal reasons.
I guess I also have some gut concerns about whether this impinges on rights such as freedom of assembly. I guess if it's being used on private property, then it's fine. On subways... that seems a bit more morally dubious.
And as for the choice of music... I don't think classical music lovers should be particularly offended. Though as somebody who is relatively fond of classical music, I will admit that taken out of place, it can be intrusive. Anybody reading this who commutes through London's Victoria Station will be aware that every few weeks they have some opera singer (and supporting instrumentation) there, collecting money for a cancer research charity. I know it's for a good cause and I shouldn't whinge but... when you're waiting for a delayed train and just want to get home after a long day, the singing, while perfectly "cultured", due to its volume and pitch, can be as intrusive and offensive as blazingly loud gangsta rap would be.
How is this even news?
Other stations have been doing this for years.
Frankston in Melbourne, Aus (not a nice place to be, last time I checked) had to cover speakers with protective cages, as the youth discovered if you smash the sound source, the music would stop.
I would also go with Eno's "Music for Airports". A wonderful piece that does wonders with the stressful atmosphere of contemporary travel.
FCKGW 09F9 42
Just moves the crime so its haydn somewhere else.
Since when do the real numbers matter? What really matters is that some politician has shown to "Fight against Crime" (note the capital letters, those are important).
People demand that action is taken against the nuisances and crime. Whether the action actually works is really not so important, as the results of pretty much every election around the world show.
A feeling of safety is far more emotional than rational. So, go away with your statistics, and leave us emotional non-rational people alone.
And obviously, in about a year from now, we demand Action against Crime. Again.
Droogs love doing ultra-violence and Beethoven.
Are we sure some age groups have the right to change the environment to their favour? Make places unsuitable for skateboarding, use classical music, install benches instead of swings, do the elderly have the right to make everything suitable for themselves?
How is this different from the case, when young people put their own art on the walls? The law? What law? The one that is also made by the above 50 to their own needs?
vajk
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/08/low-tech_loiter.html
I woke up. The pain and sickness all over me like an animal. Then I realized what it was. The music coming up from the floor was our old friend, Ludwig Van, and the dreaded Ninth Symphony.
I'm 38 years old. Definitely not a troublemaker. I have a legitimate reason to be waiting at train stations.
And I hate Handel and Mozart. Why should I be subjected to it?
Also, I can clearly hear those high pitched "mosquito" tones that are meant to disperse young people. Again, why should I be subjected to it?
And what about law abiding young people?
Maybe they should have supplied Meyerbeer.
Plan My Week for iPhone
Playing classical music that is no longer protected by copyright and performed for the purpose of free redistribution/public performance keeps the IP lawyers away. They can't stand to hear anything that cannot be used as the basis of a lawsuit. Interestingly enough, keeping the lawyers off the streets may reduce crime more than keeping rowdy teens away.
We may be on to something here... what can we play in public places to keep bank execs away? Anyone have audio transcripts of Congressional inquiries into the subprime mortgage crisis? I'd like to play that loudly on my phone the next time I'm standing in line at the bank... if everyone did that, it would be better than a sea of Guy Fawkes masks.
Would be more intelligent to invest some money to give the kids some places and opportunities, instead of chasing them around. A club, workshop or hackerspace for instance.
It will work for awhile. But once everyone starts doing it everywhere, a new strain of harpsichord-loving crack dealer will emerge and be more difficult to eradicate. They'll try changing the music to polka, which will work for awhile. The city needs to decide who the people are and talk to them. Otherwise these effects are like a bright kitchen light on cockroaches, it doesn't get to the root of the city's problems. Who knows, maybe these kids are like the hippies whom city elders wanted off the lawns and parks in 1966. Maybe there's a Steve Jobs or Wozniak milling around under the streetlights. I know a lot of really nice high school kids who'd probably leave if you played classical music at them... which was always the problem with that soap, it killed the good bacteria and let staph grow in its place.
Gently reply
I know it has been said before, but i'd like stress on this once more.
Instead of trying to chase away teenagers with criminal tendency, why aren't they looking for ways to prevent it? It's clearly an educational problem. It won't help if you chase them away with classical music, batons or pressurized water. You should help them instead.
Perhaps this will give rise to a new generation of young criminals with a love for classical music.
This has been going in on Denver and Aurora, Colorado for YEARS with good results.
So this makes everyone wearing earphones a possible suspect!
"...such environmental changes actually deter crime or just push it down the block. Not everyone is sold on using 'lovely lovely Ludwig Van' as a deterrent."
So somewhere, some when there is a person who believes a little Bethoven will so move teenage youth to give up all crime, and become law abiding citizens. And they say the perpetual youth are the delusional.
by Anonymous Coward: I, for one, welcome the shift from car analogies to pizza analogies. um.. overlords?
For some reason, people have an apathy to this kind of music when they are young. when older, its different.
Read radical news here
Hopefully, over time, this will attract a better class of muggers.
Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore
Galloping through the sward
Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore
And his horse Concorde
He steals from the rich
And gives to the poor
Mr. Moore, Mr. Moore, Mr. Moore
Bad music influence crime ?
No, violent games are not a reason for teen violence, but.
Does the music criminal minds listens have an influence on them ?
No, only idiots get influenced by music and all you know. But arent many crimals idiots ?
Whomever chose the music library is definitely showing racially-preferential tendencies.
Oh, God. Another group of fucking elitists. Instead of being happy more people are exposed to classical music they're going to complain. "No! Don't use our favorite thing on the masses! They aren't sophisticated enough to appreciate this music." They're just like the Apple fans upset the new iPhone doesn't look significantly different from the previous model so they can differentiate themselves.
They're just hoping to get a better class of criminals.
âoeAny society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Perhaps we could extend this to a treatment for offenders.....
Whomever chose the music library is definitely showing racially-preferential tendencies.
Your comment educated me. I was about to point out that there were not any black composers, but decided to check. how wrong I was. Listen to this beautiful composition as an example.
....
-_-
They could, as an alternative, start playing avant-modern classical, like Penderecki, Webern, Xenakis. The subway station with the least crime is the one with no patrons at all.
I can think of at least 5 different reasons this would work, none of which is "it's not their favorite type of music."
1. environmental cues. I am personally less likely to order a hamburger at an establishment playing classical music than I am at one playing rock : ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. (i.e. the same establishment, the same location, the same waiter, EVERYTHING equalized). It's a classy thing. Maybe I'm less likely to assault someone too?
2. market cues. At a place that's playing classical music, there is a lot more likely to be a security (even if in fact there is none), just like an upscale mall, expressly because there's security around the very rich, even if I don't see them. So I'd better be on-guard (it's a risk-reward criminal thing).
3. maybe I like it too much to deface with crime. Maybe I'm a lot less likely to commit crime at a place that is not horribly poverty-stricken. Maybe I love it too much to deface or destroy with violence.
4. maybe I recall a better period of my life, when I could have heard such music. This would be the same if they played champagne glasses clinking. maybe the thieves haven't always been so down on their luck
5. maybe I still have some choices and aspirations. maybe putting Gucci shop-windows there have the exact same effect.
I can go on and on. But guess what. One of the possible reasons nicely includes "poor violent people don't have taste"...they just don't like this music. so that's the one the summary goes with.
personally, I think teens are the most susceptible of all, to environmental cues about how to behave.
Gelukkige Valentijnsdag, ik wens de wereld liefhebbers om te trouwen.cocktailjurken
So, what's up with classical music lovers hating this idea and concept? If they weren't a bunch of pretentious blowhards before, they certainly upped the ante with that attitude. Give me a break. Most classical "lovers" are at home listening to their beloved music on a $10,000 record player pumped through $27,000 worth of "sonic purification" anyway, because anything less would be....well uncivilized.
Since when does the Twin Cities have a subway?
Those lousy PA speakers make ANY music sound like crap. Although it's possible that only young people can tell that it sounds like crap.... Although I've seen them listen to music using the speaker on their cellphone...?
But I do not care for classical music, so when I go to the station I will put in my ear buds and be rachmaninoff.
Silence is a state of mime.
The Lake Street station in Minneapolis is about 25 feet above street level. You take the escalator UP to get to it.
The Twin Cities light rail system is entirely above ground.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
They have this at some London tube stations. At Seven Sisters (a fairly rough tube stop in North London) they do this, especially in the mornings and evenings, and I'm quite sure I've heard it in other places too. I think it might have been more for train rage rather then crime but from what I've heard the London underground is safe compered to the NY subway (only what I've heard, not verified)
... and yet attracts awful jokes and puns with equal force.
Oh, I see. We can use profiling that tells us that hoodrats and thugs are repelled by glorious works of classical music, but we can't use profiling that tells us 80 year old Caucasian grannies don't blow up airplanes.
I have seen people doing that in Chicago and Toronto
As long as they don't play "singing in the rain"! It will have a reverse effect, causing old ultra-violence to occur.
So, will Roll Over Beethoven have the same beneficial effect?
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
I've always preferred a classical soundtrack for my rage. De gustibus. Hope this encourages the modern kids to acquire the taste.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
The city started doing this years ago with their "Block-E" project...
I remember when Gameworks MPLS opened in ~2002, they used to play drum n base (this is a couple blocks away from the downtown light rail station) and then they suddenly said "hey, let's play classical music" and since then the new, expensive, Block-E project has been a complete failure (most all of the shops and restaurants have closed) and this is certainly not going to affect the train stations as they were never friendly places to hang out in the first place. This is stupid, the tactic is a complete failure and it just annoys people.
A few years back in Lancashire they tried using pink lights in problem areas: apparently no self-respecting yoof want to hang around under a pink light in case people cast aspersions on their masculinity, plus the pink makes their acne look worse. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6197652.stm
Do what the UK railway stations did - they have added lots of small cafes, snack shops and newsagent shops to every platform. What used to be bleak, empty, desolate and isolated concrete platforms are that little bit more human when you've got a few people selling things rather than just a couple of broken vending machines.
Uh, above ground train != subway. (FFS Look at the picture!)
He steals from the rich
And gives to the poor
Robin Hood never "stole from the rich to give to the poor".
Instead, what he did was recover money which was stolen by a corrupt government under the guise of (excess and illegal) "taxes" , and returned that money back to the rightful owners from whom it was stolen in the first place.
I was going to say that this sort of thing was going to lead to this generation's "A Fifth of Beethoven" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxS0gO_-TQk), but then I saw on the right that we've already had techno and dubstep versions of Beethoven made.
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
Equal time. If you play classical, you have to give time to rap, dubstep, Gregorian chants and Tuvan throat-singing too.
Can't be accused of squandering taxpayer money on things whose appeal favors a particular minority group. Specifically the wealthy conservatives.
"This is my land. You can go live on a reservation." They've been doing it for centuries.
The Wolfpack Project: BitCoin + Crowdfunding = Political Accountability
In Copenhagen Central Station, Denmark, Europe, the entrance facing a street inhabited by alcoholically challenged and drug users has had Classical music in speakers at the entrance for decades. Apparently classical music has an annoying effect on such people and discouraging them from "hanging around" especially in the rain etc. Seems to work. :)
I can't find any official information on it. It's based on hearsay.
but that may drive away the younger crowd
They've been doing this in some Toronto stations for over 10 years now. I'd rate it as somewhat effective.
You needn't take it any further, sir. You've proved to me that all this ultraviolence and killing is wrong, wrong, and terribly wrong. I've learned me lesson, sir. I've seen now what I've never seen before. I'm cured! Praise god!
Intentionally leaving out 3/4 and 6/8, because those are too common. Oh, and also leaving out the more "proggy" bands like Tool and Dream Theater, because then this would be too easy.
Money by Pink Floyd (7/4)
Four Sticks by Led Zeppelin (5/4)
Spoonman by Soundgarden (7/4)
Silhouette by Thrice (4/4 and 7/4)
Words in the Water and Hold Fast Hope bu Thrice (5/4)
Before the Lobotomy (middle section in 7/8)
March of the Pigs by Nine Inch Nails (29/8)
Time Like These by Foo Fighters (main riff in 7/8)
Paranoid Android by Radiohead (sections in 7/4)
Pyramid Song by Radiohead (16/8, piano plays in groups in 3-3-4-3-3)
Idiotique by Radiohead (6/4 drums, 4/4 vocals)
Everything In It's Right Place by Radiohead (10/4)
15 Step by Radiohead (5/4)
2+2=5 by Radiohead (7/8)
Are there a ton? No. But are there really THAT many songs in the classical realm that aren't 4/4, 3/4, 6/8 either?
It would be funnier if 'Händel' was in that title.
I read about a clever piece of work by some town officials in a German town to drive away teens hanging around a certain area at night (drinking and harrassing people).
What they did was install a light usually used by dermatologists which highlights unclean skin -- pimples and the like.
The teens stayed away.
They could play Yanni and run everybody away.
Classical music may chase teens away, but will attract the likes of Hannibal Lecter.
leaving the attractive/repulsive power aside... i can see another advantage:
- it would drown out music played from cellphone speakers. whether the song is good or bad is immaterial when its thrashed through a tiny distorted treble speaker
on the other hand i have yet to meet a subway PA of sufficient quality to carry a human speaking voice, let alone the classical greats with any acceptable fidelity
country music would be way more effective.
After five minutes of that they'll be clawing at the gates begging to be left out. They should play it in the tent city jails in Arizona. The pink underwear is one thing but a day of Small World and the toughest Con will be in tears.
This is also used in Hamburg's central station.
> Mozart and Bach Handel Subway Station Crime
Of course Richard Wagner will never be played there, because the NY-TV based rulers of the world brain-washed us to excommunicate Wagner.
I worked at a Pawn Shop in Cincinnati to keep the loitering element away.
And as a bonus, the folks who enjoy it probably have a CC premit.
"it's that there are frequently no words"
Are you crazy or did you only listen to a superficial sampling of classical music. Granted, a lot of classical music is only instrumental but there are a lot a vocal pieces as well. There is all the operas, the 9'th symphony by Beethoven, Handles Messiah and these examples are just for starters. To say classical music is mostly instrumental is ludicrous.
Smart criminals will simply wait for the 1812 Overture.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Lets not have government agencies get in the habit of piping music into public spaces! Can we? Really? I don't care what the reason is, it's just way too creepy eastern-blocish for me...
I look quite the vagrant and on one cold night I camped out there, because I enjoyed the music.. so much for that plan..
The Lake St. light rail station in Minneapolis is one of the few with an indoor area (an enclosed escalator) and heat. In the winter, the students from nearby schools tend to congregate in the stairwells and escalators, smoking (which is illegal, of course). The music works because it drives them outdoors, helping passengers feel safer because they don't have to push through a crowd of high school students. Of course, whether or not people should feel unsafe because of a crowd of kids smoking is a different issue, but I'd guess most of the adult travelers coming through the station prefer the loud music to the loitering teens.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
will empty the stations entirely.
The LRT stations in Calgary were doing this twenty years ago for the same reasons.
November Rain, back when GNR was a rock band.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
stupid mistake or some kind of pun? are they playing Handel also?
somebody sifted through a lot of porn to compile that list...
The ultra-sonic cleaner?
No, George Michael. Early George Michael. Wham. "Wake me up before you Go-Go." I am still cringing from the thought.
Do we really have to liszt all the puns
... way back in the (Rolling) Stone(s' late Mick Taylor (ie, best)) Age
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I worked in a record (a record was like a thinner, larger, black-colored and shittier sounding CD (errrfff, a CD was like a very low-density DVD with a bigger hole, (agggghhhh, a DVD was a small shiny circular plastic disc that held bits))) store (hmmmph, a store was a meat-space place where people used to buy things (errrrkkkkk, buy was (take+give money (chraaaapppppp, money was bits of special government-issued paper and metal that allowed rapid alteration of wealth before credit cards (phthththth, credit cards were early debit-card-like objects that were part of money-replacement scam that allowed rich financial institutions to do legalized loan-sharking) using mainframes (gaaaaa, mainframes were non-portable personal computers (eeeeekkkk, personal computers were non-portable audio/video and phone devices (humphhhhh, phones were voice-only iPhones)))))in exchange)), : NOTE - possible compile error due to brace mismatch, but this shit is made up, so I say "So fucking what?"
But I digress. :
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Someone who worked with me in the store used to do voice impressions. He used to do an Ed Sullivan (ummmmmm, Ed Sullivan was (David Letterman-(humor+Paul+interview))) voice impression and used to tell customers that, in additional to rock and jazz, the store had a big classical music collection and he would then imitate a George Carlin (nnnnghhh, George Carlin was an Irish-American Lefty comedian like (John Stewart+Bill Maher+Stephen Wright+(/Carrot Top))), or was it Gabe Kaplan (Gabe Kaplan = not funny failed Jewish-American "comic", iirc, see "faggot mouse", (who did have 2.5 minutes of fame in a TV show that launched the huge wasted career (that arguably unleashed anti-music on the world) of a talentless Italian-American twat (now an undeservedly filthy rich, charter member of a brain-fucked science-fiction-detritus cult, and all-around moron) routine from a record [Go Sub1] in which he would say "We have Bach, Beethoven and a LISZT of others!" : NOTE - Eureka, Slashdot! We have found relevance!! :
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Now get off my fucking lawn!
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Go ahead. Make my day by: 1) being a pedantic asshole and criticizing my made-up language/syntax /style and/or counting braces and/or; 2) being a brainwashed religious moron of any stripe and/or 3) being a humorless fuck by modding the post down.
Its a fucking A/C post to begin with. So, sticks and round objects ... get a life and a functional brain.
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If I have to click the fucking preview button one more time, I'll puke!
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BARF!!!!!! Mmmmm, tastes like fish. Yes, I am off the meds.
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Again with the BARF!!!!!! Still tastes like fish.
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El BARFO!!! Hmmm, trout? Wait! Look - there's a pubic hair! And it's not my color (blush, oh yeah, I get it (ask your mom))
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Slashdot is ordered to delete this post or science-fiction war from another galaxy will rain down like holy hell and smite Cowboy Neil but good (your pal, Xenu The Fictitious (made-up representative of the mindless-nutcase-controlling/brainwashing cult that is probably an extortion-racket, possibly a death-cult, but surely a commercial enterprise (yay! for the American dream of making money whatever fucking slimy way you can and its "any and all religion (ie, mental illness) uber alles (including the evile gubbermint)" mentality!!)) posing as a religion.
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But it's volume level is so low (& it flows from such crappy "outdoor" speakers) that I don't know if the animals can hear it... Dogs certainly wouldn't hear it, at least, when barking "in chorus"
In the context of this /. article:
Maybe beautiful music overlays the baddies' inner voices, leaving a pleasant feeling that can reduce their chances of offending...?
It seems harmless to try such innovative approaches to fighting crime...
The only risk I see is that local birds will start imitating instruments in the music... :-)
There was a coffee shop next to a record store that got a lot of kids that would buy a single cup and sit all day listening to music and hogging the WiFi. Then the shop started playing classical music and the kids went away. Now normal people can sit and drink their coffee in piece and browse using the WiFi. After 30 minutes the password on the receipt expires and they have to buy another $5 worth of stuff. This was back in the late '90s. This phenomenon is not unknown.
A bit of the old Ludwig Van. Just saying. -J
Copenhagen Central Station (Denmark) has used this kind of 'annoying' sounds to push the pushers away - and done that for many years - and I enjoy getting my little Vivaldi fix in the morning!
Phillip Glass
John Adams
Steve Reich
Instead of old dead composers.