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Chevy Volt Meets High Resistance, GM Suspends Sales
Hugh Pickens writes "The Hill reports that GM has announced to employees at one of its facilities that it is suspending production of the Chevy Volt for five weeks and temporarily laying off 1,300 employees. Back when GM launched the beleaguered electric car, it boldly targeted sales of 10,000 in 2011 and 60,000 in 2012 but GM only sold 7,671 Volts in 2011 and just 1,626 so far this year. 'We needed to maintain proper inventory and make sure that we continued to meet market demand,' says GM spokesman Chris Lee. 'We see positive trends, but we needed to make this market adjustment.' Although President Obama promised he would buy a Volt 'five years from now, when I'm not president anymore,' the Volt has come under criticism from Republicans in Congress because of reports of its batteries catching on fire during testing. Ironically, the shutdown comes as gas prices are soaring, exactly the time when an electric car should be an easy sell." If it's still true that GM was taking a loss on every Volt sold, perhaps this is a blessing in disguise.
Suspending production != Suspending sales. The two mean quite different things.
Aren't Fords made in the US ? The ford focus is quite a nice and fairly popular car. :-)
And the Crown Victoria is awesome of course, just a bit expensive at the gas station
Hyundai, BMW, Toyota, Honda, etc. all have plants in America. So we have those, at least. Apart from that, the coolest American car is probably the Tesla Roadster. Maybe a Jeep.
SSC
Anyway, 7671 volts is more than they used in an electric chair.
The lawyers saw this number and stopped production: a customer might get hurt and sue...
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Less economical than a Prius
Not as good as a Prius
Costs more than a Prius
Buy a Prius.
To use a reverse car analogy, it's Motorola Xoom to iPad2.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
It's kind of a do-nothing-well car for $40,000USD
My Crown Vic was made in Quebec. That's in the US, right?
Without significant subsidies GM would have sold even fewer cars. The subsidy is a just transfer payment to the well off. High efficiency diesel engines are probably the most cost effective option for the masses and our stupid EPA requirements keep best ones out of the USA.
I can buy TWO Ford Focus 40mpg cars for the same price as a Volt.
Unlike other districts, there are no subsidies for the Volt in Saskatchewan.
$20,000 buys a HELL of a lot of gasoline.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
With some things you can afford a loss on the first N units if you later sell M and get more than your setup costs back.
So yes, a lot of things that are low volume but expected to sell later at a high volume can initially be sold at a loss without it being a total stuffup. Then of course you can have total stuffups where things are sold for less than the cost of the materials but that's rare.
The Volt costs $40,000 before tax rebates and only gets you 35 miles on an electric charge. Then 35 MPG city/40 hwy (gas) for 375 miles.
The Toyota Prius starts at $24,000 and goes to $30,000 for their top end. Mileage is 51 MPG city/48 hwy for approximately 600 miles.
So Chevrolet's market was people who have lots of money, are willing to spend it with abandon, want a car, but don't really need to drive much. In short, semi-rich idiot hipsters.
I think they probably just saturated their customer base.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
When you make a product for political reasons, not because there's a market, and then subject it to the market, it tends not to do well. Huh.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
Cannot get 4 adults plus dog plus ancillaries in a Yaris. But that, or. Fiat 500 twinair, will be our next town car.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Volt meets Resistance. I couldn't resist.
On a serious note, GM does not have a good record with respect to embracing effective change. Its management is still intellectually corrupt, except it is no longer led by executives who came up through sales/marketing and now has had government surrogates put in their places.
GM has never had a working grip on the obvious, and I'm old enough to remember when GM-made cars were more than half of the world's output. They no longer have a monopoly, nor the world's biggest dealer network, and only, apparently, one profitable brand of auto -- Cadillac.
So, as I told a friend who had inherited money in 2001 -- "Sell GM short. They're going down."
It's true again, How long must GM wait before it can return to the courts for relief?.
How much resistance was there exactly to cause no current to flow?
Set your phasers on "funky"!
Hyundai, BMW, Toyota, Honda, etc. all have plants in America. So we have those, at least. Apart from that, the coolest American car is probably the Tesla Roadster. Maybe a Jeep.
With the globalization of the auto industry - like every other industry - and the consolidation of the parts makers (down to VDO, Bosch, Walbro, and a couple of others), more than likely those "American" cars are also, German, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Swiss, English, Mexican, and Canadian.
The do, and people do.
I don't live in the US any more, but I'm hardly unique (ie, there are people like me still there) who would really love to go electric since our driving patterns are ideally suited to having a small, quiet, economical electric car that you recharge at night at home. (DISCLAIMER: yes, I'm aware, you need to tow your boat from LA to NYC every 2 days while simultaneously carrying 8 people and their luggage and there are no charging stations on route... electric cars useless for everyone etc etc, no possible use case etc etc...)
However, the current economics aren't making them viable - they're just too expensive at the moment but it's a chicken and egg problem since it's early generation tech and in low initial demand.
Don't mistake slow sales of a very expensive electric vehicle as definitive proof of a lack of interest. When (if?) I can buy one for a similar cost (also factoring in fuel costs) to the 2 litre turbodiesel minivan I drive right now (53 mpg EU / 44.1 mpg US) that can easily haul 5 adults and luggage then I am sure sales will pick right up. Cracking that early adopter and economy of scale problem is not easy though. Bear in mind that I also pay around $8 per gallon for diesel in the UK and it's still cheaper than going all-electric right now (or even to hybrid).
No thanks, we choke on small bones.
Take the Red Pill.
Ford is the second best selling car brand in europe.
if they had continue with the EV1 they would have been the world leader in electric cars by now.
stupid americans.
Is that why my 13 yo ford has 267k miles and I'm still driving it 140 miles a day?
Hollywood and Predator drones, so watch your fuckin' mouth.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Crown Vic? St-Catherines, Ontario... Thats in Québec, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Thomas_Assembly uh... Ford has never had any plant in Québec. Hyundai did: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromont,_Quebec#Hyundai_plant (RIP: 1994), GM did ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sainte-Th%C3%A9r%C3%A8se_Assembly ), (RIP 2002) but Ford/Linocln? never heard of it. With the Canadian Dollar trading at par with the US, that has meant a 30% increase in labour costs up here, and plants a closing left and right, and moving to the US (Caterpillar: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-23/caterpillar-union-workers-ratify-severance-package-as-ontario-plant-shuts.html ) oh, and fwiw, for every dollar each American put into saving GM, a Canadian put in 2$. (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/story/2010/04/21/wdr-detroit-gm-government-loans-100421.html) oh, and the St-Catherines plant closed last year.
My 2002 generic Chevy Impala is going strong with 220K miles and orig transmission. My '92 BMW 850 (V12) bit the dust at 100K. Shit car for the price.
Aren't Fords made in the US ?
The ford focus is quite a nice and fairly popular car.
As far as I know, the mk1 Focus was developed/built in Europe in 1998, and then Ford US built it in 2000, too, with some changes. The mk2 Focus was developed independently in Europe/US (US model was very different from Europe model and only a restyled mk1). The mk3 Focus was a joint development between Ford US and Europe, and is built both in US and Europe. So the Focus is not really a good example of a good car developed solely in the US.
The coolest car you can buy new in America is a GT40 kit. Oddly, that's the coolest car you can buy new anywhere.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I just bought an American made car last week, a Honda Odyssey. It tells you on the window sticker these days where stuff was made. Assembled in Lincoln, Alabama USA. Engine constructed in USA, Transmission constructed in USA. 70% of all parts for it come from the USA, 15% from Japan, and the rest from "other".
That's good enough for me to call it American.
To be fair, I think BMW only mfgrs X3 and X6's in the USA... nothing "cool" as far as BMW product.
120 characters ought to be enough for anyone
I can buy TWO Ford Focus 40mpg cars for the same price as a Volt.
Wow, I haven't heard anybody else suggest that simple technique for getting 80 mpg.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
the Volt has come under criticism from Republicans in Congress because of reports of its batteries catching on fire during testing.
If only there was a group of people whose job it was to regulate things like this...
...low current ensues.
The Volt isn't an electric car, and that's part of the problem. It's a serial hybrid. GM's marketing has been extremely disingenuous with their claims and how they manipulate figures.
As for the EV1 lovers, many of them are doubly miffed at GM for still not taking the electric car market seriously and producing an expensive hybrid instead. Enthusiasts have long memories.
While Volts sit in dealer's lots gathering dust, Nissan can't produce their LEAFs fast enough. There is demand for a pure electric vehicle.
=Smidge=
Yeah, but the Fords sold in Europe are actually good because... wait for it... they're NOT designed and built in america.
Domestic made Fords are crap, as they've always been, unfortunately. Only GM is on a higher level of crappiness compared to Ford.
I recall the initial launch of the Volt had it only available for sale in a short list of select states.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Until a huge breakthrough is made in battery technology, electric cars are doomed to fail, no matter how high the price of gasoline.
Electric cars are too expensive -- it's cheaper to just pay the high gasoline prices.
Electric cars have an extremely limited range and take too to charge -- people will pay for gasoline as a "convenience fee" to be able to go farther, faster.
And even if those two problems are somehow fixed, the elephant in the room, that everyone is desperately trying to ignore, is the enormous cost of replacing the batteries. A conventional gasoline engine, which proper maintenance can last a very long time. And if you do have problems, you can replace/rebuild/replace parts as needed. Worst case -- you can go to a local junk yard and buy a used engine for a few hundred dollars.
With batteries, there is no repair or rebuild or get a used one from a junk yard. Once the batteries reach the end of their life they have to be replaced at a very high cost. As a result, the re-sale value of an electric car is going to be pretty close to zero -- who would want to buy a used electric car knowing that they are guaranteed to get hit with a bill for several thousand dollars in the near future.
You forgot Kia's plant in Georgia, USA.
All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
Chevy Volt meets high resistance... Makes reductions in Chevy Ampere.
The dealer I went to had a $4000 markup over MSRP on it. I would have been interested at invoice (around $2000 off of MSRP). Despite the Volts flaws I wanted the all electric range that it provided. The bad dealer experience soured me enough to GM to give them less consideration when I bought my new vehicle. I am sure the dealers looked at the Volt as way to make a quick buck when they saw the Prius selling over list price but the Volt just is not good enough. The expected MPG was near Prius levels but in end it was 15% less. The expected price after the federal credit was $30k, but in the end it was closer to $35k. The range was expected at 40 miles but ended up being less then 35.
They are already driving a PHEV-converted Prius.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
No, get it right
Endependantie Republique du Quebec!
At least in their minds...
1311393600 - Back to Black
I'm waiting for the Secretary of Energy to say that by using more electric cars, we'll cool the planet which will make the flow of electricity more efficient which will in turn make running the car more cost-effective which will encourage more people to buy more electric cars, etc. etc.
You can convert your gas car to CNG, though this may be expensive depending on the regulations and install a home filling compressor which can fill the car over night from the domestic NG supply.
The if you want to be green you persuade your local sewage treatment plant to produce biogas for domestic consumers and you use that.
Deleted
While Volts sit in dealer's lots gathering dust,
I went to the local GM dealer, and while they had one, they said it wasn't for sale. And if I wanted to buy one I'd be put on almost a year long waiting list. He basically said they were near impossible to get so dont bother right now.
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
After how GM completely mishandled SAAB, and continue to mishandle SAAB in my hometown, I have no sympathy for them (but of course sympathy for the workers).
I'm curious what happened to kill the 850. I assume it became too expensive to fix whatever broke? What was it exactly?
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
the only reason the Tesla got any attention at all was because it looked like a sporty Lotus!,
had it looked like the current crop of retarded looking square boxes and it wouldn't of batted an eyelid.
That is because the roadster is just a Lotus Elise with batteries and electric motors.
All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
There are always flukes. I once saw an Escort with 410k on it. As for your BMW... Duh, dude. A V12, seriously? No engine that tuned for performance will EVER last long. How many Ferraris do you know of that make it to 100k?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
I just bought an American made car last week, a Honda Odyssey. It tells you on the window sticker these days where stuff was made. Assembled in Lincoln, Alabama USA. Engine constructed in USA, Transmission constructed in USA. 70% of all parts for it come from the USA, 15% from Japan, and the rest from "other". That's good enough for me to call it American.
Following your reasoning, an iPhone could be considered as a Chinese (or Brazilian) phone...
If it's still true that GM was taking a loss on every Volt sold, perhaps this is a blessing in disguise.
This is because the beancounters have set too short a time for the RoI. Large-scale long-term investments like tooling up a car need a long-term RoI. A realistic term would be 15-20 years, given that the immediate product (the Volt) is likely going to have to go through numerous mutations before it settles on a money-making model. Expecting to make back the setup cost in a year or two means that the beancounters or VCs have lost all grasp on reality, if they even had it to start with.
Where do you live?
We can blame this on GM corporate for having their heads up their asses. If what you say is true and your local dealer has such a waiting list with no on-lot inventory, then he needs to call in a complaint. Just a few weeks ago there were stories of dealers turning down deliveries because they weren't selling.
=Smidge=
My 2003 Monte Carlo has 220,000 miles on it. I did choose to replace the motor and trans (both used) at 200,000 miles though instead of rebuilding the trans when the pressure control solenoid gave out and repair would have cost as much as the replacement motor and trans together, so those only have around 72K on them. Runs like a dream and by the condition of the interior and exterior you would never know this car had anywhere near 100K miles much less 220,000. Any car from the "big three" built within the past 20 years that is worth buying these days can go 300,000 miles with basic maintenance. Cars were garbage in the 80's and I think a lot of the mentality around longevity in the US these days is still based on experiences with those cars.
This cannot be 'current' news.
> Chevy Volt Meets High Resistance, GM Suspends Sales
There are a lot of hybrids that look like normal cars (toyota camray, ford escape....).
I like hatchbacks, but the prius shape now screams I like the environment. It makes a statement which probably shouldn't be discounted as a reason people buy them.
Plus that shape is areodynamic, thus the honda insight looking almost the same
I once drove a crown vic from '89 for six months. It leaked engine coolant, needed more oil than fuel, left front wheel was a bit loose, windows would get stuck if totally dialled down, heater wouldn't work in cold, heater would automatically come on when driving uphill in summers, gear kick-back didn't always work, the 'coast' buttons sometimes caused acceleration, door locks would not unlock, handbrake was broken. trunk would occasionally pop open while driving.
But otherwise, it was a perfectly fine car, which just ran 250k miles.
Last time I went to a auto show, they had the then-new Ferrari 575.
I waved the sales guy over from beyond the velvet rope (the unwashed crowds not being allowed to mix with the "real" customers) and asked him "how much is a 100,000 kilometer service on one of those things?"
the reply?
"none of our vehicles /ever/ do that many kilometers."
Delivered with just the right amount of "how dare you even THINK about driving your Ferrari that much? For shame, sir. FOR SHAME." sneering.
...That's good enough for me to call it American.
Congratulations. I, myself, bought a Honda Pilot four years ago. The window sticker also had Alabama as the car's "port of entry", or whatever the term was called; and also showed, as I recall, that only about 15% of its parts came from Japan, and the rest was built in the US.
It's now four years later, and my Pilot stills runs like new. I'm not kidding, or overexagerating. I can barely hear the engine on cruise control, and the transmission still shifts gears like it rolled off the dealer's lot yesterday. This is the best car I ever had.
America sure builds damn good cars these days.
I had several mid-1990s American cars, and they were without exception, junk. Replacing the engine (or a serious overhaul) sounds right in line with what I have come to expect from American cars. The Volvo (a 1992 960) I bought for $900 needed only routine attention (oil change, air filter, battery, tires) and I drove it from 186k to 188k without the slightest hiccup. I would not trust an American-made car with 186k on it, because it's either at or near it's designed end-of-life.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
When I leased my Prius two years ago on a three-year lease, it was in hopes that I would be able to switch to a plug-in hybrid at the end of the lease because it would fit my driving profile perfectly (the vast majority of my trips are <40 miles, with an occasional trip of 200-300 miles). Which I still want to do, but the car has to be reasonably decent. The Volt doesn't impress, but the new plug-in Prius may fit the bill. And on a lease, you aren't paying for the entire cost of the car, so a somewhat higher sticker price doesn't bother me.
Plus, I'm not at all sure that gas prices in the US won't be $6-7/gal within the next couple of years, which changes the calculation somewhat.
Reminds me of the time some old lady chastised me for taking jobs away from American autoworkers.
"Look ma'am, my Honda was built in here in the USA. Where was your Ford built again, Mexico?"
Simple as that. I would never consider driving a car that looked hideous.
There is a documentary out there about the EV1 the last attempt at an electric car. Its sad the way it ended. The vehicles were all leased and one day GM collected all of them and destroyed all but one that was put in a museum with it's engine de-activated. There were a lot of people, many celebrities that loved this car. Many were angry after it's passing. The question is what is wrong with the Volt? The Volt is leaps ahead of the EV1 in every way. I personally think it's the lack of charging stations. If there were as many charging stations as gas stations it would be a different story.
Tesla Motors
Telsa is planning on an ~$30,000 model in the next few years. If they achieve this price point and maintain the quality of their current models, I think that they will have an all electric car that many people will want
This guy has a nice analysis of why it costs over $6 per mile to drive his Lamborghini:
http://supercarrentalsinc.com/lamborghini-gallardo-buyers-guide-part-v-ownership-cost-estimate/
Of course, if you drive more, you'll bring the cost per mile down.
It's ridiculous to see all the Volt bashing here. The Volt is the ultimate nerd car, and you guys seem to be buying into the Fox news "it explodes and also stops working in the Lincoln Tunnel" bullshit. You'd think Microsoft built it. And yes, I am a Volt fanboy, but I don't think that changes the facts.
Facts:
- The Volt costs $32500 after tax rebates, which is quite reasonable for a car that costs so little to operate and drives so well. You can lease it for $350/month. It's definitely a toss up in efficiency between the Volt and the (admittedly cheaper) Prius, but if you drive less than 75 miles a day the Volt wins hands down. The Volt is only about $2000 more than the new Plug In Prius with rebates factored in, which only gets 6 miles of full electric range.
- It's pretty easy to get 40 MPG on the highway in the Volt. Since the battery takes care of short trips, you almost never run the generator during city driving, where it gets about 35 MPG.
- The battery will probably never need replacement, just like most Prius batteries never need replacement. GM is babying the shit out of these batteries, only using about 12 kWh of it's 16 kWh battery pack. GM estimates that after 100k miles the battery will still be able to give you 12 kWh of power.
- No Volt has caught fire in a real world situation, and no Volt will, especially with the side-impact reinforcement upgrade GM is making.
Granted, if all you do is drive on long road trips, a Prius makes more sense. But for ANY OTHER SITUATION, a Volt is a great choice, and an incredible driving experience. I challenge anyone running their mouth off about a Volt to go to a Chevy dealer and take a test drive. All I know is if they end up having a fire sale (heh) I'm picking up another before they go to the crusher like the EV1s.
I am looking for an electric car now (I just got solar panels and I want to reduce my driving expenses). But I would never consider the volt. It is $40,000 and its range is only 35 miles. For $5,000 less I can get a leaf that goes 80 miles per charge and for the same price I can get a focus that gets 100 miles per charge.
Cars with limited ranges are practical, IF (yes, this is a huge if) you are willing to own multiple cars. That means more expense up front (buy two cars instead of one), plus greater time-based expenses (e.g. insurance, registration -- these aren't the largest expenses but should nevertheless be taken into account). If you get over those hurdles, though, I can see how a non-hybrid plug-in could be reasonably good tech for daily commutes (assuming your commute isn't insanely long-range). Then your longer-range car is for when you need to go further (at reduced efficiency).
I'm not sure the hurdles are easily get-overable, though. The insurance one simply can't be solved, IMHO; I don't know any insurance company who insures by the mile rather than the month/half-year.
The solution is to own things in groups: families. Two adults who work near each other could often share the commuter car, and yet there are also somewhat routine situations where they each need to have their own car for a day, so it's not crazy for the family to own two. Suddenly the math works out. Limited range vehicles may become viable there.
If I woke up tomorrow morning and my old Prizm had magically turned into a 30-mile-range plug-in car at no expense to me (that's the big catch: $40k for a car? fuck no!), I could easily make the best of the situation, and that plug-in would probably become our most-often-driven vehicle.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I just bought an American made car last week, a Honda Odyssey. It tells you on the window sticker these days where stuff was made. Assembled in Lincoln, Alabama USA. Engine constructed in USA, Transmission constructed in USA. 70% of all parts for it come from the USA, 15% from Japan, and the rest from "other". That's good enough for me to call it American.
Following your reasoning, an iPhone could be considered as a Chinese (or Brazilian) phone...
I definitely agree with that, it is Chinese.
I did the cost comparison between muscle car and the Volt, and if you got a Volt, with the $7500 rebate of 2011, and drove it on battery only (except when it forces you to use gas) you would have to drive it 16 years to recoup the cost difference of the Volt over the Camaro (V6 RS, Automatic).
A $45K car at the Chevy level of comfort? No thanks. Though I do have to say the Volt drove REALLY nice. Very impressive, and it does not have the Prius hesitation at stop signs. The Volt is a well thought out vehicle, having the gas backup is awesome. Better than the Leaf and it's once the charge is used you are stranded model.
I picked up a Buick Verano instead. Cheaper than the Volt or the Camaro, really comfortable and very quiet.
You can lose something that is loose, so tighten the loose item so you don't lose it.
Kia is Hyundai.
No they aren't.
The volt is a completely new class of car. It's a trailblazer. The first year is always a challenge.
You can't compare a Volt to a Prius or Leaf any more than you can compare a Corvette to a dump truck. Yes, they both have wheels, electric battery packs, and doors, but they are entirely different classes of vehicles.
The Prius is still largely a gasoline-only vehicle. Yes, the plug-in version is out this year, but it only gets you 8-11 miles, vs. the Volt's 30-40 miles. .
The Leaf is electric-only. For the vast majority of Americans, it's stuck as a second car because you can't practically road-trip in it with the current American infrastructure.
The Volt seeks to address these shortfalls.
It is the first production extended range electric vehicle. You cannot compare it to a Prius or Leaf, which are two different classes of vehicles altogether. The Prius's battery pack and electric range are only a fraction of the Volt's. The Leaf is just an electric car that requires charging stations. The Volt is actually engineered for the current infrastructure reality of the US - you can get gas everywhere, and you can only charge your car in so many locations, so it's a "crossover" vehicle that can let a broader class of folks adopt to a MOSTLY electric style of living.
GM knew full well going into the project that it was risky and it caters to a VERY specific audience of "Green Early Adopters" - folks that are willing to pay a premium for cutting their petroleum footprint.
If you don't like the Volt, you are obviously outside the target demographic. The Volt serves a lot of purposes outside of selling a EREV (Extended Range Electric Vehicle) - it also helps get actual production units to start building the battery production capabilities and infrastructure needed to sustain an electric vehicle fleet. Yes, the Prius has laid some inroads here, and the Volt is another push by another manufacturer.
If you study history at all, the Insight and the Prius were in very similar positions when they came out. Both were sold at low-to-no margins and had relatively crappy first-year sales.
The First Generation Honda Insight (the first mass-produced hybrid) only sold 17,000 units over several years.
The First Generation Prius was initially sold at low-to-no margins by
There is unanimous consensus among the engineering an scientific community that we need to reduce our petroleum usage. There is also a general consensus that an electric vehicle fleet is the most practical way of achieving this goal (and this includes fuel cells which are nothing more than expensive batteries).
Let the technology bake. The battery cost is rapidly falling. Get a few model years out. You may be pleasantly surprised. If it's outside of your budget, don't buy it. It's not for you anyway. You will still benefit from the technological advances of the vehicle. You can't afford a space shuttle but you still benefit from the fringe developments of that program. These types of projects are critical to the development of our electric vehicle infrastructure. You can't convert the American fleet to electric overnight anyway, the grid would have some major problems anyway with a million vehicles charging on it suddenly; they need a few years to get that upgraded. The Volt is the first step of many.
He was replying to this comment... To use a reverse car analogy, it's Motorola Xoom to iPad2. His response seemed legitimate.
I believe the GM Volt is really a public beta test of electric vehicle technology. They could have black boxes in the vehicles, and interview the owners to find out what real world conditions it was exposed to. Vehicles in accidents can be purchased, and stripped down to determine exact wear. It cost $500 million to develop the GM Volt, and they wisely anticipated production of 10,000 in the first year.
Considering the decision was made in early 2007, to start the long journey to get a vehicle with 10 years of real world experience by the year 2022, I think GM was smart. If fuel cells take off, GM will be ready. If nations around the world require electric cars, GM will be ready. If oil goes to $300/barrel, GM will be ready.
Nissan spent over $1.5 billion to become the leader in electric cars. I think they are the dumb ones.
If you're going to be running on gas often enough that the Volt compares to the Prius in miles-per-gallon, the Volt isn't for you.
Sounds like exactly what I'd expect from them.
It's a pity Mercedes has gone the route of performance over reliability and quality lately. They have fallen quite a way from the days when their iron-block diesels were considered THE car to own for longevity (I happen to own one).
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
A range of 35 miles? I see over 350 miles.
Never mind... you are right for electric only.
Following your reasoning, an iPhone could be considered as a Chinese (or Brazilian) phone...
Seriously, which part of an iPhone did you think wasn't made in China?
I'm not sure I undestand the lack of demand, to be honest... unless it's purely about price.
With the Prius selling like hotcakes, why wouldn't the Volt sell? It's a superior product, made in USA, and only a bit more expensive...
I'm fully intending to buy one as my next car in fact. I'm due to buy in a couple of years, so I sure hope things pick up for the Volt.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
Rather, it's about achieving the sales numbers you forecast. GM projected that they would sell 10,000 Volts in 2011. At 7,671 actual sales, they were off by almost 25%. That's a fairly big miss, and the sort of thing that forces you to make some adjustments.
Contrast this to the Nissan Leaf, with projected sales of 10,000 and actual sales of 9,674.
I would love an electric car. If I total the car I currently have, I will definitely buy an electric to replace it. But the Volt really turns me off. It has bucket seats my aged parents couldn't in and out of without pain. It has less glass than I would want. It's made by GM, who have showed us time and time again that they couldn't find their ass with both hands. And it has an internal combustion engine I'd have to haul around but never use.
I have a Scion Xb. If I could find something like it -- upright, not made for speed but for utility, small, light, tight turning radius (my Xb has a tighter turn radius than either the volt or the leaf), I'd buy it. But I can't afford to do so unless my Xb gets totaled, or shows some expensive wear, or the EVs get cheaper.
Give me a converted Scion Xb or a 1961 BMW 2002, and I'd be ecstatic. Seems like everyone's trying to sell cars with chassis made to hold internal combustion engines and go 90 mph for cars we're just going to drive around the city in. We need to go 80 MAX in them, and then only in the worst pre-rush hour speeding on highways. Mostly we need to go 60 or less, and we need to be able to see. We need room for passengers and groceries. We need to be able to park them easily. We don't need trucks or sports cars. We need a smaller version of a mini-van built to be safe and support and electric drive.
The Volt is the wrong design by the wrong company at the wrong price.
I suspect that the next car I buy will be European (not just a VW, for example, but one sold in France/designed for Paris driving) or Chinese.
But with the leaf, you range is 80 miles PERIOD. If you get caught out and run out of charge, you're screwed. if you want to take a road-trip that is longer, you're screwed.
The Volt is no-compromise. Drive just like any other car, without worries. Go any distance. Refuel anywhere you need to (gas or electric).
That peace of mind and freedom of movement and convenience is definitely worth a premium over something like a Leaf, which has a very limited practical use.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
How many engines have you gone through to get to that point?
I can't say for AC, but I've got 225k on my 1996 Ford F150 on its original engine -> 4.9L straight six. Most reliable gasoline engine ever built, IMHO. Of course, Ford stopped building it after 1996...
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That tuned for performance? That car was an overrated 295HP at the crank and weighed 4300lbs. Those cars were a dog, and the performance numbers are extremely underwhelming for a V12.
A 1992 Corvette made an underrated 300HP at the crank out of a V8, and there are THOUSANDS of them on the road with far more than 100k miles on the original engine. The same engine went into the 94-97 Camaro. If you lump those in, it's a non-starter. Not to mention the thousands of Camaro's on the original engine that through modifications are making double those numbers and still running strong.
I'd never heard of this car before. So I checked out its wikipedia entry... and noted that absolutely none of any of the controversy about it is listed there. There is a great deal of information about the car -- marketing information, that is. I can find out how many awards it has won (like that really matters), I can find out how good it is at so many things.
What I can't find, is any objective truth there. Admittedly, no surprise, since I've never seen any wikipedia car entry that isn't so-obviously written by a fan, or the marketing dept of the manufacturer. The Volt's page was clearly written by someone with connections to GM. Just like so many other wikipedia pages. It's a complete waste of time using wikipedia for anything that has a fanbase, commercial interests, or political implications.
My confidence in the ability of the average american to perform simple math on return on investment is restored.
Got Code?
You drove a car 2k miles without a problem and want to use that as a valid sample set? Biased opinion is biased.
Ford shutdown the Crown Victoria last year.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Thousands still on the road... out of the millions sold. And I have never met anyone with firsthand experience with a Corvette with over 100k on it.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
There are after-market solutions for most of the problems that I've listed, they simply require you to "Just Empty Every Pocket". If you'll buy my 22 MPG Jeep, I'll go buy that 45 MPG Range Rover that I've recently read about.
The problem is the $40K price. We're still in a major recession.
This has not been my experience. When I drove domestics, I had nothing but problems, and now that I've owned as many European cars (admittedly, brands known for reliability) as I have American, I would never buy American again.
Also based on experience is price of repairs (higher for new cars than it is for older ones) and general feel of cheapness in construction in ALL newer cars is why I drive an '84 Mercedes.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
Didn't the Crown Vic of that era also have that engine, or was that a V8? Because I know there's plenty of those with a propensity for cracking head gaskets (just like both Fords I owned did).
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
The fact that the engine can drive the wheels directly at all is another minor gripe many have with the Volt, since that was revealed after GM's representatives swore up and down that it never happens. But that's another discussion since the circumstances under which this happens are fairly rare for most people.
99% of the time, the Volt runs as a serial hybrid.
Just to be clear, I've nothing against the Volt as a machine nor anything against GM's engineers. It's their corporate douchebags that are screwing everything up.
=Smidge=
You haven't asked many people who own corvette's how many miles they have on their cars then. I personally know three, and they've all heavily modded them to boot. Original block with nitrous and making over 500whp. The LS family of engines is by far the most reliable production V8 on the planet.
As for "millions", there were 20k vette's produced in 1992. Not millions. There were roughly 40k Camaro's built per year with the LT1, also not anywhere near millions. And there are ten's of thousands of those still on the road.
The volt isn't even a fully serial hybrid, since the engine feeds power directly through the transmission when required. It's more like a parallel-serial hybrid hybrid. I don't imagine something this complicated is actually very reliable over time.
Let me expand on why I hold that opinion.
Shop around, buy low-milage used 1994 Ford (52k) for $2500. Put $500 into it immediately to fix various small problems with it (thermostat, couple of other issues). Drive it gently less than 10,000 miles, blow engine. Replace engine, drive further 20,000 miles, blow engine again. Experience #1.
After Ford blows up, buy 1992 Volvo with 186k (3.5x milage as the Ford) for $950. Put in battery, air filter, oil change, and fresh gas. Drive it for 2000 miles without the slightest problem, at which point I bought my current vehicle (1984 Mercedes) and no longer need the Volvo. Experience #2.
I paid significantly less for the Volvo than I did for it's predecessor, and it ran needing NO MAJOR SERVICE (and continues to run, though it is no longer registered because insuring two cars is ruinously expensive) for the entire time I owned it, with 3.5x as many miles on it.
I really used to believe that American cars were quality, but owning them for years, and now the stark contrast with European engineering has been just staggering.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
As a former Ford owner, they are assembled in the US of Canadian and Mexican parts, and all of the engineering is done by Volvo's engineers now (which is a good thing, Ford never was good at making things that didn't fall apart).
Well, it used to be true that Ford's engineering was done by Volvo's engineers (which, as a happy Volvo owner, I agree would be a good thing), sadly, Volvo is now a Chinese car company...
If you bought a 1994 with 52k miles and it blew up, you did something wrong or the previous owner did. Do you know how many crown victoria's there are on the road that went from police service to taxi service? Do you know why taxi services all pick up used crown vic's? Because they're RELIABLE. Parts are CHEAP. It's extremely uncommon to find a crown vic taxi on the road with under 200k miles. And if they required engine rebuilds at 50k, you can bet your ass both police forces and taxi companies would have nothing to do with them.
Your experience is abnormal. Your opinion is biased.
At my university, one of the science buildings has a large Foucault pendulum surrounded by a ceramic base. They kept having problems with people messing around with the pendulum (somebody tried to use it as a swing and got injured, and some other idiots managed to steal the pendulum and plop it in a nearby pond). So they put signs on the ceramic base saying
CAUTION: >10,000 OHMS
DO NOT TOUCH.
They have had considerably fewer problems since, and people with at least half a clue get a good chuckle.
GM brakes are absolutely garbage. My dad and brother had the misfortune to buy year 2000+ GMs thinking they got a good deal. They have had to change or turn their brakes once every 2 years and they put Half the K's on that I do. I change my brakes on my Mazda once every 6-7 years and my Nissan only because I get gravel in the pads.
I guess this proves the point that selling cars does not necessarily mean you understand cars.
Disk brakes are designed to be easy to maintain at the expense of requiring routine maintenance (pads) at relatively frequent intervals.
GM uses the same brake calipers and rotors and pads as everyone else. They don't make their brake parts, any more than anyone else does. US makers tend to use TRW, in Europe it's Bosch and a few others, in Japan it's probably Nippondenso. All the engineers do is open up those product catalogs, call up the vendor's salesperson, and come up with which one of their (for the most part, standard) brake systems they will "design" in.
The only way the automotive engineer can screw up, really, is listening too much to the bean-counters (or being an idiot themselves) and choose a brake system inappropriate for the weight or intended use of the vehicle. What you are not taking into account are factors such as vehicle weight, number of miles, type of driving (city driving being harder on brakes than highway driving, for (what should be) obvious reasons), type of roads (dust and dirt wear down brakes, too!) style of driving (hard braking, riding the pedal, etc.). Oh, and this doesn't even get into the differences in various pad/shoe materials (fibre, semi-metallic, metallic) and the quality of the replacement parts (did your Dad always buy the cheapest pads/shoes he could find?). All of these factors, and even others I've forgotten to mention all can dramatically affect the lifetime of brakes.
Politicians aren't thinking what's best for the market.
They're thinking what's best for their constituents, and anybody who knows anything about a free market knows that the two are not necessarily the same thing.
Worse:
Politicians are thinking what's best for winning the next election. Which may not necessarily be what's best for their constituents.
At best, they to do this by trying to find out what the constituents really want and promoting that, in the hope of being reelected as a reward.
At worst, they take barely disguised bribes in the form of campaign donations, in the hope of winning through a flashy campaign (and stupid voters are at fault when this approach works).
C - the footgun of programming languages
Kia is Hyundai.
No they aren't.
You are both PARTLY correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia_Motors
49.2% of Kia is held by a holding company named Hyundai Kia Automotive Group, a group of affiliated companies interconnected by complex shareholding arrangements, with Hyundai Motor Company regarded as the de facto representative of the Group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Kia_Automotive_Group
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
the crown vic as always been decent, just had to watch out for the ball joints and tie rod ends. a few pumps of grease every few thousand miles deals with that tho. my 1990 estate model is still going strong with a bit of regular maintenance. now what i wanna know, is why there isnt a car with a 3 cylinder diesel generator powering an electric motor? you could tune that diesel to run for days on a few gallons of fuel (some of the light plants i have worked with would run for 48 hours straight on 10 gallons of off road #2 fuel oil). just have the gen set power the drive motor, you wouldnt need a 150+ hp engine to power the vehicle, just a 46 hp diesel, and a couple motors on the drive wheels.
I, too, have worked with small Diesel-powered gen-sets when designing a controller for some highway signage (before it all started using all that Commie Solar stuff! ;-) ). So, I know that those little Benoullii (sp?) Diesel engines are pretty impressive as far as fuel economy goes. HOWEVER...
You do realize, of course, that the second law of thermodynamics and Ohm's Law have not been revoked, right?
The real problem is that people still want "performance", and so, most of the time, 75% (guessing) of that 150bhp engine's power is literally going up in smoke (well, not so much "smoke", but...). Ever wonder why "hybrid" vehicles don't get better gas mileage? It's because the only time they are "saving" any energy is when they are doing regenerative braking. And unless you are talking about a purely urban application (taxicabs and city-buses being a perfect example of the potential for lots of regen. braking), the efficiency of a gen-set system (like the so-called "hybrids" use) is a bad joke on the consumer, and the environment (what happens to all those huge and inefficient batteries that don't get recycled?). Oh, and don't forget that batteries get hot when charging, and alternators get hot when charging. What happens to that energy? Not that ICE don't have more than their fair share of wasted heat-energy, too...
But, while we're on the subject of "efficiency" and "waste heat": If you really wanted to have an insane efficiency increase, you would take the 80% of wasted heat energy produced by any internal or external combustion engine, and use it to power a supplemental Sterling engine. A vehicle like that would likely (conservatively) double the overall fuel economy of something like a car (which typically has a very modest energy requirement, once it's moving). But the engineering involved in having two primary engines in a production vehicle would be fairly intense to make cheap/simple enough. Yes, I know that "vehicles" such as "monster trucks" and some dragsters have multiple power plants; but those don't cost $20k...
Having been able to confer with many knowledgeable educated people in the energy field has really confused the issue. There are many different perspectives taken on the electric car and alternative fuels. Remember that GM once had an electric which they decided to scrap, sending about 9 or 10 new models to be destroyed. No reason was given and no auto maker pursued the manufacture or design of a alternative fuel or electric car for many years. Yet there are engine designs that can get more mileage than we will ever imagine but they are not being used. Automakers wait for the government to have them raise mileage standards before making changes. If increased mileage were not possible cars would still be gas guzzlers. It's all a big game and the speculators and oil companies seem to be running the show.
Now we have companies desperately trying to catch up on years of neglect that could have already had us advanced to a point where the technology was advanced and cost was no longer an issue. Automakers are trying to make an affordable electric car that works. i don't expect to see everyone running out to mortgage their home to buy a Chevy volt. Cars have continuously risen in cost and are now a capital expense item that cuts deeply into a families disposable income. Most engineers, inventors and other people I converse with have not looked favorably upon the Chevy Volt due to cost and efficiency. They feel that the technology needs more development,cost needs to be reduced and of course the batteries life is a concern as is the mileage on a charge.
If American greed were not part of the formula engines getting amazing gas mileage would have been in use years ago but the patents and plans are probably locked away in a filing cabinet to keep crude oil profits flowing.
http://jalopnik.com/5559767/i-sold-everything-to-buy-a-lamborghini-and-drive-across-the-country
Interesting story I read quite awhile ago.. 91000 miles on a lambo :P
You got that backwards: the Volt is the one that compromises; compromise is the whole raison d'etre of the car. Instead of being an all-out EV like the Leaf, or an all-out high-mileage car like the Prius (48mpg hwy), the Volt is a compromise between the two. Not saying this is bad, just that it is what it is. The Volt goes 30-40 miles before running out of electricity, and has to switch over to gas. But on gas, it's not exactly quick, and the fuel economy isn't great, only a little over 30mpg. Lots of much nicer and faster cars get that on the highway, and the Prius gets about 15mpg better. So if you're going to do a lot of highway driving, the Volt is a terrible choice, because the fuel economy sucks. If you're going to do a lot of commuting and the occasional long trip (and not having to worry about being stranded the way the Leaf will leave you if the battery runs out), the Volt is a reasonable choice, with the only problem being that the cost is high. The new limited-availability Plug-In Prius at $32k looks like it's probably a better value here.
First car was a 1990 Chevy Lumina that I sold in 2003, with 195,000 miles on it. Who replaces an engine, really? It had its transmission replaced, one time (automatic tranny, will happen). Sold it to a cousin, who drove it for a few years, and sold it with about 250,000 miles on it -- and a few years after that, I saw it driving through town (distinctive paint on the hood from where idiot cousin refused to wash it after people egged it while he owned it).
Current car has 180,000 miles, it's a 1999 Pontiac Grand Am. I've replaced even less on this one. Alternator, one time. Battery twice. Shocks, struts, blower motor.. that's it.
What world do YOU live in, where engines ever get replaced? Maybe, if you think it's normal to go through more than the original engine to reach that mileage, maybe your choice in cars isn't as good as you thought.
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
For those engines, BMW simply used two copies of all the equipment used by their contempory 2.5L inline-6s. This means you have two seperate systems which need to be kept in perfect sync to run the engine... a tuning nightmare.
Beautiful cars, but not easy to own.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
The most noticeable aspect of these cars is how space inefficient they are. They car is huge, yet the front seat doesn't actually have that much room.
This is a direct result of the fact they are running on the same basic 1970's platform.
Also, the Crown Vic is no longer sold to consumers in the US, only fleet buyers.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
They have the same corporate parent... and are about as well differentiated as Buick and Oldsmobile were.. not at all.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
I thought all TJ's had overhead lighting? My 2003 has the updated speaker bar (now 2 distinct speaker pods). There are two overhead lights built into it. Works just fine for map-reading and that sort of thing. There are also factory solutions to most of what you don't like. For example, it sounds like you may have been happier with a hard top or at the very least the full steel doors. Coleman makes a cooler short enough to fit under that tension bar (and that stupid bar is one thing I REALLY hate about soft tops). I'm also curious if you have the 4 cyl or 6. I've owned both and the 4 cyl just really isn't suited to highway travel. The 6 is great as long as you don't get the CAFE-friendly 3.07 rear end. 3.73 is ideal for stock wheels and tires.
I'm not saying Jeeps are for everyone, but it sounds like you may have gotten a worst-case-scenario for your needs vs. what your Jeep offers. Mine has been great for the 5 years I've owned it and doesn't suffer from many of the problems you mention despite it being completely stock. At any rate, I hate to hear you had a bad experience with a vehicle I love so dearly. I hope you find something that better suits your needs.
This guy has a nice analysis of why it costs over $6 per mile to drive his Lamborghini:
http://supercarrentalsinc.com/lamborghini-gallardo-buyers-guide-part-v-ownership-cost-estimate/
Of course, if you drive more, you'll bring the cost per mile down.
Buying a high-performance sports car for everyday driving is like using an F-22 Raptor instead of a Jumbo jet for commuting. Or, like marrying a supermodel instead of a normal woman.
Of course it isn't going to be cost effective or reliable! But you have significantly more performance at your command.
You aren't spending your money properly if you don't use (or at least appreciate) the extra performance and complain then about the cost.
Last time I went to a auto show, they had the then-new Ferrari 575.
I waved the sales guy over from beyond the velvet rope (the unwashed crowds not being allowed to mix with the "real" customers) and asked him "how much is a 100,000 kilometer service on one of those things?"
the reply?
"none of our vehicles /ever/ do that many kilometers."
Delivered with just the right amount of "how dare you even THINK about driving your Ferrari that much? For shame, sir. FOR SHAME." sneering.
When it comes to supercars, people buy Ferarris to look at and only drive them now and then. People buy Porsches to drive and only look at them now and then.
That said, I know of a guy who had a Ferrari 308 or similar and he drove it all the time.
Flappinbooger isn't my real name
Your own article says that the "loan" part was already repaid, five years earlier than expected, and the rest is shares. Canada owns shares of the company, or did at the time of that two year old article. I'm not sure what the point in mentioning it was, other than to make yourself sound like an idiot for mentioning something negatively and having your own source say the opposite of what you were implying.
>Jeep
>cool
Pick one.
Well made Ford vehicles, that are sold in Europe, are made and designed in Europe.
The US government loans were repaid as well. Americans decry jobs going to foreigners when their government "saves" the company. they fail to realize that foreign governments do similar things, in this case putting Canadian citizens on the hook for, per capita, twice as much as Americans.
Part of buying a car is also gauging the replacement costs for parts. Not necessarily new, but from a junkyard too. You could buy a very reliable sports car, but if replacing the motor costs 5x that of a more popular car, than you'll need it to be at least 5x as reliable to break even. The same goes for most other parts. If you don't mind working on your own car, sometimes a slightly less reliable car may be better, if the parts are substantially cheaper.
You're right, a hard top and real doors would address some of the problems. Then again, so would a small pick-up truck. Lesson learned.
The BMW 8-series was pretty to look at but deeply flawed and unreliable. That plus the high price killed it.
Self awareness - try it!
It's the old anec-data syndrome.
I had a 1998 Audi A6. Well put together, nice materials, etc. But things broke - a lot. Cam tower seals, transmission, ABS, cup holders, door locks, headlight wiring, cooling fan, etc etc. And every time something broke, major bucks to fix.
We now have a 2005 Dodge Caravan and a 2007 Camry Hybrid. Both have been 100% reliable. Go figure.
Would I buy an Audi again? Not a chance.
Self awareness - try it!
You're still comparing driving a car 2000 miles vs a car that drove 30,000.
It'd be a better comparison if you drove both cars 30k miles.
He seriously looked at a Volt. 90% of the time he's not driving more than about 15 miles from his house to go the store, get something to eat, or go to the doctor's. He does drive down to the farm 4 - 5 times a year (400 mile round trip) as well as 2 driving trips/vacations. It's the trips and farms that puts the miles on the car though.
He ended up buying a Buick LaCrosse with e-assist. Why? First off he's not an early adopter. Secondly he thought the Buick had a better overall ride. Lastly, the Buick was $14,000 cheaper. He chose the Buick over another Impala because of the E-essist. The way he drives he's getting 28MPG in town and 40MPG out on the road.
Something we both feel is that GM is the one on the right track. The thing is, this isn't going to help the Volt. Where it's going to help is when the technology gets implemented in such away where you can buy Extended Range Electric versions of the Malibu, Impala, Terrain, and on down the line.
As someone mentions, the basic design concept allows most to benefit from having the all electric capability, but without the limits. If you need to go further than 35 miles you still have the gas option which the current infrastructure supports.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
Chevy Volt Meets High Resistance, GM Suspends Sales 401 ...
from the get-it-resistance-ha-ha dept.
I hope Timothy is currently strapped into a live electric chair for that one.
Your calculations include the cost of the lease/payment.
But when you buy, after 3-4 years, you're paid off, you own the vehicle and your costs are gas, maintenance and repairs.
*the sweet spot for any car is years 4-10* they cost very little to own and drive during this time and they're extremely reliable.
Comparing lease costs to car payment costs is something dealers do to convince rubes to lease instead of buy.
When you do an actual comparison, the ROI on the volt is so low that its not worth discussing.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
But with the leaf, you range is 80 miles PERIOD. If you get caught out and run out of charge, you're screwed.
Well, more like 100 miles if the heater isn't running, but whatever. We've run our Leaf more than 100 miles before plugging back in at the house because in the Seattle area chargers aren't hard to find. In the worst case, if you run to empty, Nissan (for the first three years) will send a truck at no charge. I've tried to run the Leaf to "turtle mode", the state right before running out. Even with an estimated 4 miles left on the batteries, I got bored of driving around the block and gave up before it hit "turtle mode". It's incredibly conservative in it's estimates when it gets low, it gets incredibly naggy, and you'd have to try harder than I did to run it until it stops.
If I want to take a road trip, I take the Scion. We didn't buy the Leaf to drive to LA every other weekend.
The Volt is no-compromise.
The Volt is nothing but compromise. It makes for a crappy EV, and an even more crappy ICE vehicle. More mechanically complex than the Leaf, with less room. It just wasn't what we were looking for if we were going to buy something "different", and pay a premium to do so. If you're enjoying your Volt, great; at least it's not yet another gas-guzzling SUV. But when it came time to put our money where our mouthes were, the Volt didn't make the list.
Bullshit. Car engines regularly achieve 50% or more of Carnot efficiency. You are not going to be doubling that.
Who in their right mind wants a Subaru? That's the last car anyone should buy. They make Chrysler cars look good.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
I have a Scion Xb. If I could find something like it -- upright, not made for speed but for utility
We have a 2005 xB, ordered one the day they were available to order in WA. We're going to shed a tear when that delightful little car finally dies. We also have a Leaf. The back with the seats down isn't quite as roomy as the xB, especially height, which is important for carrying the two mutts or furniture. But it's otherwise darned close. Almost or equal headroom, plenty of seating room front and rear.
Would the Leaf replace the xB (range excepted)? Sadly, no. The Leaf just isn't the "cube on wheels" the xB is. It's still more utilitarian than I imagined. Carries people and cargo from Costco just fine, just not the big stuff.
(my Xb has a tighter turn radius than either the volt or the leaf),
Really? I'd swear the Leaf is tighter than the xB. Even if not, I don't think the difference is huge. They're both just shy of a Dixon lawnmower.
I see those Crown Vics with 200k+ and I raise you the Greek taxi fleets of old Diesel Mercedes, a number of which are still in service with well over a million miles.
My definition of "reliable" and yours clearly differ by a very large margin. Fords are cheap. When they break, they just buy another one for the fleet. And police departments use them because they're what Ford offers with the "enforcer" engines. It's not the same ones you get in stock CV's.
I admit I had abnormally bad luck. But the engineering quality difference isn't any less for it.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
10,000 on one engine (of my driving) and 20,000 on the replacement. If you're going to be pedantic, at least get that part right.
Just because *I* didn't drive it 30k while I owned it doesn't mean that those miles and wear aren't there... the Ford had 52k when I got it, and the Volvo 186k. And yet the Volvo didn't need work done when I got it and the Ford did. That fact in and of itself says a lot.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
WTF does GM make that costs six figures? I call shenanigans.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
No, I did not mistype. I bought it as-is, and all of those things were long past proper end-of-life. I tapped the air filter and large chunks of gunk fell out. The tires were bald, and one of them had a slow leak. The battery was so old (from 2003, I believe) that I had to jump it to drive it home from where I bought it. At less than $20, an oil change was a no-brainer since it was jet black when I checked it.
You assume I buy new. I always buy used to avoid the several thousand dollars a year that comprehensive insurance (mandated if you buy a car on a loan) would cost me. I suppose if you buy new and treat a vehicle as disposable after say, 250,000 miles, American cars are a good fit. That's how my father does it.
I'm no speed demon, nor have I ever been. I learned to drive in a Ford Escort, and that paltry 88hp was never too sluggish for me. I have an old diesel Mercedes now (which I absolutely love to death) and it's got a glacial 0-20 time (don't even ask about 0-60) and I don't try to rush it. I plan on getting 500k to a million miles out of that car, because I personally know at least three people that've done it.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
You just made my point for me, sir. Not only having to do it, but considering it normal and acceptable!
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
Exactly why my father bought a 1979 Accord and never looked back. If you think American cars last a long time, try a Honda/Toyota and read what Consumer Reports has to say. (BTW, I'm betting on Korean being the next decade's value carmakers.)
There is no need to use a SlashDot sig for SEO...
The Crown Vic didn't change much for something like 30 years. They are relatively simple, easy to fix, parts are everywhere, and since they have changed relatively little people know what to expect from them. So with all of that it's not too terribly hard to keep one on the road for a long time, even if it's not a terribly reliable car.
Not Obama's fault they built a junk car. Go buy one of these! http://wheego.net/more/
Most people don't realize just how important the dealer is for a car company. When I bought my Chevy S10 in 2000, I did the negotiation online. Back then, GM had a program where you selected a car from the inventory your local dealer had, and they emailed you a quote. My quote was the invoice price and included all of the rebates and discounts. No pressure at all. When I went to the dealer to buy the S10, they offered financing at a lower interest rate than what I already had so I accepted it. I took a test drive and signed the forms at the exact price that I had been offered online. The entire process including the test drive took 1/2 hour.
Three years later I was having problems with brake pads. I took it to Midas and they said there was a problem with the calipers. I had 2 weeks left on my warranty. Midas said it was possible the dealer might still partially cover it, so I took it back. Not only did they cover it 100% with no questions, but the paid for a rental car too. Absolutely nothing but positive experiences with my local Chevy dealers
About the same time, my father purchased a new Toyota Corolla, which developed engine oil sludge at 15,000 miles. The following quote from the article pretty much summed up his experience with the Toyota dealer:
Charles in Arkansas said: "At 36,000 miles the engine gummed up and quit running. My wife had the oil changed at Wal-Mart and did not keep receipts for the oil changes. The North Little Rock dealer and the Toyota representative told us such problems were rare and that we had caused the problem but for $2,500 they could fix it. They inferred that my wife was a liar," he wrote.
"Be grateful for what you have. You may never know when you may lose it."
First, it's not the same setup as a prius. It has clutches to engage and things. I'm assuming (sorry) that those are hydraulic clutches since most of the trans is carry-over from the 2-mode which. Hydraulic clutches suck because the fluid need pressure and has some flow rate - i.e. the hydraulics require ENERGY. A prius/fusion/etc use the motion of the parts to splash oil around for lubrication, but have no significant hydraulic loads. This means a Volt expends energy in the transmission that is not used to propel the vehicle and is less efficient - It's only a 30-35mpg hybrid, which is not that great. In all-electric mode, they would have been better off as a plain series-hybrid with a little bigger motor and generator and no clutches or brakes. There would also be no question what type of car it is.
This is contingent on my *assumption* of hydraulic clutches.
This is easy math. If a car gets 25mpg (average) and you drive it for 100K miles, that's 4000 gallons of gas. At $4 per gallon you'll be spending $16K on gas over that distance. If you drive the car for 150K miles that will be $24K in gas. If gas prices vary, you can do the math for that too. But you WILL spend $15-20K for gas over the life of a car. So the question becomes how much will the electricity save (about 75% in some places) and for the time you run a volt on gas, how much will the 30-35mpg save? I'd agree that it looks like a wash for many people, but if the volumes go up the price will come down and then it will be an easy choice. But then it seems demand is weak....
I've seen some numbers thrown around,and they are incorrect. The Volt National Lease deal (USBank - Ally sucks) is as follows: $349/mo, 36mos, 12Kmi/year, $2500 out-of-pocket (due at signing). USBank tosses the $7500 tax credit on the back-end to the residual, and kicks in a $2375 cap reduction, along with your $1520 cap reduction (from your $2500 due at signing). This is on a base model $39995 MSRP. Mine, is a 2012, $369/mo, $3400 out-of-pocket, loaded with every available option. Of course, I negotiated the price of my car, and got it for abotu $3K under MSRP, which resulted in a $370pmt, and not a $459pmt ($45,908 MSRP). As to comparing the Prius to a Volt, I can tell you, Volt shoppers are NOT cross-shopping with a freaking Prius, even a plug-in. I can drive to work, and back home (40mi) on a single charge, which costs me about $0.90. I was paying $45/wk in gas in a 2003 Susuzki Aerio SX doing the same commute. My Volt averages about 1.6cents/mi on electricity, and the Suzuki was about 16cents/mi. You cannot take the posted averages, and calculate your forecasted expenses, because internal combustion engines are dynamic, and I guarantee you, that NOONE on this planet drives the way they do on the test-loop for EPA mpg estimates.Well, maybe grandma. And although the Plug-In Prius at $33k (someone forgot the destination of like $80) can go like 11mi (13mi realistic) on battery, it cannot go above 62mph on battery-only. As for tax credits, it's only worth $2500 on the prius, making it's cost $30500, against the Volt's $39995 - $7500 = $32,495. For 2 grand, dang straight I'm driving a Volt - no WAY I'd be caught dead in those ugly things, moping along at 62mph hoping to keep the engine off... As to Focus and Leaf, as mentioned, when their battery dies, you're on the side of the road, period. Call a flatbed. It's great as a "CityCar," but I;'d be worried... And those that CONTINUE to compare the Volt against the Prius, Focus EV, and Leaf, it is a stupid assumption. You might as well compare the Cadillac CTS against a Camry, or an Acura TL against a Malibu. Different segments, WAY better appointments and standard options on the Volt, and the two are like apples and oranges. As to the Tesla, no way I'm getting a car from them. EVs are an unknown variable as it is, but toss in an unknown company? Who's electronics can't even prevent battery-bricking, and then charge you $40K for a replacement? No thanks - Chevy thought of that, already. Volt has a 16kWhr pack, but you only really use about 12.6kWhr - the rest is buffer, emergency, and to increase longevity. It also has a gas engine, and when I have run on fuel, which has been for 6mi out of 177mi on most recent trip-meter, it was getting 46mpg on cruise @ 71mph in a 70 zone. I'd be MORE than happy to answer questions, as I am by NO MEANS a rich person (own a 3/2, wife has a Subaru Forester, work 9x5) and I made the choice to get a Volt. As to those criticizing the tax credits, why don't you instead complain to GE, oil companies, trump, hell even Apple, who take billions upon billions of ta breaks - matter of fact, last time I checked, hasn't it been a few years since GE even PAID taxes? And you're complaining about say 8K cars x $7500 = $60M max? Being that no everyone will qualify, as it is a tax CREDIT not a tax REBATE, meaning it is above the line, not below. You don't automatically get $7500 just because you got a Volt.
Reminds me of the time some old lady chastised me for taking jobs away from American autoworkers.
"Look ma'am, my Honda was built in here in the USA. Where was your Ford built again, Mexico?"
We're Japan's Mexico.
Thank you, Edward Snowden.
"Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
That's absolutely ridiculous, and you're showing a glaring lack of knowledge. The 4.6 in the police interceptor package includes a different air intake. That's it. The engine is otherwise identical to those found in hundreds of thousands of ford pickups, mustangs, explorers, crown vics, etc. etc. etc. Police departments don't buy them "because they are cheap". They buy them because they're reliable. The exact same reason taxi companies buy retired cop cars.
Now you're comparing a diesel engine to a gas engine. Which again shows a complete lack of automotive knowledge. There are FAR more dodge ram pickups with cummins engines in them over a million miles than greek taxi's. And they do *REAL* work. Try comparing apples to apples.
The Volt isn't an electric car, and that's part of the problem. It's a serial hybrid.
Unfortunatly that's not exactly true. The Volt's gasoline engine does directly drive the wheels under certain circumstances, usually highway driving, it's the only way they got the mileage as high as they did. GM has built both a parallal and serial hybrid in the same package. They have a failry well built bad solution. This is GM in a nutshell.
More incorrect info.
The cases where the engine drives the wheels are so rare, it's not even worth discussing.
DO a little more research before ASSuming to know.
The Volt will do up to 12.6kWhr worth of nothing but electric driving, and up to 100mph, without ever starting the engine up.For me, 12.6kWhr has translated into anywhere from 38 up to 45-46mi, depending on speeds, driving habits, etc... 12.6kWhr for me is 92 cents of electricity (7.305 cents per kWhr, off-peak rates, which is when I charge, ie, after 10pm)
There are circumstances outside of the driving situation where the engine may start up, but it's not to drive the wheels, ie, if outside temp. is 25deg or under. If they just cranked the engine all the time like a Prius, it wouldn't be worth it. I know one instance, is when you have run out of battery, and the engine is running to run the second motor as a generator for the first, and, for example, you are going uphill for an extended distance, ie, mountain driving.Now, I live in Florida. Remind me again how many mountains there are here?
It's posts like those above that are misleading everyone, and it's from people who haven't even a minor clue about the Volt. If it's not for you, that's fine, but there's no need to spread lies and misinformation.
So your answer is to own TWO cars, while claiming the Volt is too expensive and nothing but compromise? Talk about paying a premium. Sorry, I don't want to pay for two cars, when I can pay for one.
Sorry, read the AC reply above you. I think it's a pretty good rebuttal to your claims.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
the sequel... ;)
Um, no, Kia is most definetly owned by Hyundai. In the late 90's, Kia filed bankruptcy and Hyundai bought a majority stake in them at that time. (That's exactly the reason their quality has improved so much... they share engineering with Hyundai's coutnerparts.)
Bill
It's my Sig and you can't have it. Mine! All Mine!
GM didn't suspend sales of the car... they only suspended manufacturing, which I might add is quite common for a company that has a larger than desired inventory. Sales are continuing.
Bill
It's my Sig and you can't have it. Mine! All Mine!
Well made Ford vehicles, that are sold in Europe, are made and designed in Europe.
He said retardedly.
-- L8R, guitardood
1) Hybrids do get better gas mileage.
2) The second law of thermodynamics does not claim that all engines are equally efficient. It only says that when you use an inefficient engine, the energy goes somewhere; up in smoke, converted to vibrations/sound, extra heat that didn't move the piston with any extra force, etc, etc. You seem to understand this in the context of waste heat, but in the context of a hybrid car you get all wacky.
Bullshit. Car engines regularly achieve 50% or more of Carnot efficiency. You are not going to be doubling that.
Really? This source I found in 30 seconds says pretty much less than 35%. In fact, another source said that internal combustion engines cannot achieve above 30% Carnot Efficiency.
So, where's your citation?
And where's your data showing that, regardless of the actual hard numbers, it wouldn't make a difference?
Do you realize what a difference even 1 mpg would make to the amount of oil required DAILY in the U.S.? I can't find the figure right now, but I remember that it was truly staggering.
1) Hybrids do get better gas mileage.
2) The second law of thermodynamics does not claim that all engines are equally efficient. It only says that when you use an inefficient engine, the energy goes somewhere; up in smoke, converted to vibrations/sound, extra heat that didn't move the piston with any extra force, etc, etc. You seem to understand this in the context of waste heat, but in the context of a hybrid car you get all wacky.
I didn't mean to imply that Hybrids don't get a LITTLE more gas mileage; but it sure seems to be a piddling difference over simply exploding a fuel/air mixture in cylinders, and having that move the car, rather than all these arcane (and efficiency-ROBBING) energy conversions, like in a "hybrid".
I wasn't saying that the 2nd Law said anything about "equal efficiency"; where'd you get THAT one?!? I just said that he 2nd Law applies to EVERY "heat" system, both limiting the theoretical efficiency, and showing that, (factoring-out all the energy conversions/requirements that have to happen before the fuel is actually IN the tank) if you convert heat (combustion) to mechanical (turn alternator) to electrical (alternator output) to chemical (batteries) to electrical (battery output) to mechanical (electric motor output) you will have a fundamentally less efficient system than the internal combustion engine's more direct route of heat -> mechanical method. And don't try to substitute the gas tank for the batteries, because that is external to this cycle, and besides, "hybrid" vehicles go to the gas pump, too (and pretty damned often). Oh, and this is ALL on top of the same 30% Carnot Efficiency (theoretical maximum!) of the internal combustion engine, whether it is powering a gen-set, or a crankshaft.
BTW, the above long-strange-trip from gen-set to wheel stated above doesn't even consider the alternator and "wheel motors" "I-Squared-R" losses, which are pretty damned significant, especially as an electric motor heats up, that occur in BOTH the Alternator AND the electric motors used for the motive force, NOR does it discuss the Ohmic losses in all the wiring from the alternator to the batteries, from the batteries to the motor drive circutry (oh, yeah, we need one of those, too, unless you want to drive full-speed everywhere!), in the H-Bridge PWM motor drive circuitry itself (what do you think the heat sinks are for?) (I designed DC motor speed controls in a former life), and then back down the output wires to the motors.
PLEASE don't think I'm trying to make a case for the likes of the Crown Victoria (!!!). In fact, I very MUCH look forward to the day when I can drive a TRUE "fuel-cell" vehicle on the road (hope I live that long!), but even THAT will still have to have some sort of efficiency-robbing energy storage (super flywheel, pneumatic accumulators, or (ewww!) chemical batteries, etc), to deal with short-term energy requirements, and so will still have to do efficiency-robbing "form of energy" conversions into and out of that storage system (and will still have all the Ohmic and IIR losses of today's "hybrids"), but at least we'll be consuming the most abundant element in the Universe (Hydrogen) more or less directly, instead of waiting a few million years for it to be trapped in oil first, and will be contributing to the Krebs hydrologic cycle (from water-vapor exhaust), instead of whatever-the-fuck we've been "contributing" to with internal combustion engine exhaust...
The Volt is a hyper-complicated car, I wouldn't buy one for that reason alone, it's a lifetime of expensive breakdowns waiting to happen. They shouldn't have put so much effort into trying to appease the range anxiety crowd. Couple that with the better new EVs that those who don't have "range anxiety" see as a much better deal, and the poor thing never stood a chance.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Bullshit. Car engines regularly achieve 50% or more of Carnot efficiency. You are not going to be doubling that.
Bullshit. The most efficient ICE in the world is only 50% efficient and it's a diesel in a container ship that's the size of a house. Too bad you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Because I've driven them and worked on them I know that
* They handle like a brick on top of a tennis ball. I now own a 1982 Mercedes 300SD, which is a USA-only turbodiesel built on the W126 S-Class platform. It has an antique semi-trailing arm independent rear that makes it go through the turns better than Ford's idea of a sports car. Live axles are for incompetent douchebag engineers like they have at Ford.
* The 302 which is the typical engine is stupid (truly pathetic stock output for the mass of the motor, poor fuel economy on high-output versions) and it was stupid how they installed it. Same motor as the Rustang, but the intake manifold is installed backwards so it's in your way. This only applies to a year range but it's offensive.
* Everything in the car is offensive, annoying, and/or expensive. The A/C system is on the wrong side of the car as usual and so there's vast and expensive hoses running around the engine bay and making it difficult to work on when it should be simple. Stupid spring-snap connectors are used throughout even though they are LESS reliable than using fuel injection style hose clamps like on an import.
* Interior space is ridiculously poor for the exterior size
* Weighs way too much and yet still incredibly floppy
I've owned an Aero Bird, which I thought handled pretty well, and I have an F250 with a 7.3, which is a pretty amazing truck once you fix the things Ford did completely insensibly, like not using headlight relays, causing many dash fires. I'm fairly well-impressed by the Focus and the Monaro. But let's face it, most Fords are crap bought by people who will buy anything with a blue oval on.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
All the bashers are talking trash, but have probably never even SEEN a Volt in person, yet feel they can comment on it.
My comments are based on the professional review by Edmunds. I put a lot more faith in Edmunds than in the comments of an Anonymous Coward on Slashdot. Edmunds says the Volt gets low 30s on gas.
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2012/?sub=hatchback#fullreview
"In an Edmunds test of a Volt with the battery pack depleted, the car averaged 31.4 mpg in mixed driving. This isn't a bad mileage figure compared to regular gas vehicles, but it is seriously subpar when compared to the mid-40s mpg that a standard hybrid typically provides."
So sorry, but you're full of it.
the differences between ICE's, hybrids, and all-electrics is the day a mass-produced electric car will have a chance in the US.
That day is not today.
Huge battery-packs for a truly mass-produced electric car are hardly even possible with the current supply-chain. And even if it were, how much more are the batteries (and the other complex high-tech) going to increase in cost of manufacture vs. increase in sales volume; we aren't talking about inexpensive materials, and whenever energy prices jump, so do production costs.
The Volt was never really mass-produced. I seriously doubt it ever COULD have been mass-produced. It certainly never could have been mass-produced for a price that the average Joe could afford, with or without subsidization.
There's the real world and the fantasy-ideal, in the real world that is America the Volt was never a great option for anyone but a tiny fraction of the population. Live in a cold area ? Forget it, the Volt is a losing proposition. Live in a rural or in most suburban areas, and have to drive a near average distance to work ? It's a losing proposition.
The Volt was always a feel-good PR move, it was never really an ICE or hybrid replacement for the average consumer.
It's funny reading the comments here, how many people even test drove and seriously considered the Volt ? How many people here actually own one of these dogs ?
And no, I'm not some conservative nutbag, I WANT an electric car. I'm just not going to spend a down-payment on a freakin' HOUSE on a car that isn't even mass-produced sufficiently to guarantee service and parts for the thing for it's (short) estimated lifespan. And neither are the rest of the American public.
How many engines have you gone through to get to that point?
Probably as many as my 1999 Ford Ranger with 197K miles on it: 1. That little 2.5 liter 4 cylinder just keeps running - as does the manual 5 speed transmission behind it (original clutch). Heck, I didn't even replace the battery until last year (11 years old). Nothing mechanical has busted on it yet.
I've also been in 4 accidents (been sideswiped once, rear ended twice, and had a small head-on collision) - none of them my fault. Total was $4500 of body damage from all 4 accidents. Other cars were a Honda Accord (head-on, it was totaled), a Dodge Neon (side-swipe, it had $5500 in damage), a Toyota Corolla (rear-end number 1, it was totaled), and a Chevy S1500 truck (rear-end number 2, he got a $600 new bumper).
But then again, it's relatively new compared to my 1963 Mercury Comet Custom, with the original 260 cubic inch V8, and 315K miles on it. Had to rebuild the original Merc-O-Matic 2 speed automatic tranny in 2004, but other than that (and a Edelbrock Performer II intake and small 4 barrel carb switchover) it still runs great.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Depends upon the V12! The Jag V12 was quite reliable, and there are plenty of marine and airplane V12 engines that last and last...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
If they bought them because they were reliable, they wouldn't be transitioning over to other fleet cars, and other parts of the world wouldn't be avoiding them. Ford's one saving grace (if you discount loyalty to them because they used to be an American brand) is that they're cheap to own, and fairly cheap to fix.
In a passenger car, if having a diesel vs. a gasoline engine can lead to a 5x the life expectancy, then why NOT have one? Having known plenty of people with dodge trucks (though over the years, only one who had a diesel) I have a hard time believing that the rest of the damn thing didn't fall apart around the engine long before it reached that kind of mileage.
And respectfully, don't be such a dick. I hold a different opinion than you based on different experiences. I am not a mechanic, but I know more about what I drive and have driven than 90% of the people on the road. I disagree with you, but I will disagree respectfully.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
Problems :
1) In a world where people who buy $40,000 cars, they buy smooth/professional looking Japanese or German cars. They made this thing look like some crap old man sports cars. Even if the thing came with a super model under the dashboard willing to make the driver happy however possible, no one who has any self respect and a credit limit able to handle $40,000 would be cost dead in this car. I don't have statistics on it, but I'd imagine that this car is being purchased mainly by companies who actually do received tax credits for carbon reduction. The technology of this car targets a middle cTheylass 28-35 year primarily stylish female demographic or a male in the similar age group who want something stylish and practical, and yet, the physical design is most similar to cars purchased by men from 40-50 years old trying to but something is a balance between a mustang and a practical car. In short... what the hell were they thinking? If they did nothing more to the 2013 model than to replace the nose of the car with something that didn't look like a poor mans muscle car, it would improve sales dramatically. Take a page from Toyota or Audi for a design idea on that.
2) They bragged about a great new revolutionary design, but the people most likely to purchase a car like this need to have a feel for reliability and dependability. That's the type of person that buys hybrids and electric cars. Toyota pulled it off because they have a long standing reputation for just being reliable as hell. GM/Chevy has a reputation of cars up on bricks that need an engine rebuild. When Toyota released a new hybrid design, it caught on quick because when Toyota says they made a fancy new type of car... you know that if anything goes wrong, they'll fix it. Yeh... there was that thing which got blown out of proportion in the press with the gas peddle, but I'm not joking when I say that as a used Prius owner, Toyota actually tracked me down to tell me to come in to get parts replaced because they found a possible problem. They proactively deal with problems... even on 6 year old out of warranty cars with nearly 100,000 miles on them. Chevy... umm... yeh right. So, if a company like Chevy claims they made a whole new design, people go "I think I'll wait until it's not so revolutionary and they have the kinks worked out".
3) Chevy bragged for years about how the brand new awesome design they're making would get insanely high gas mileage. Then as they got closer and closer to releasing it, the mileage dropped and dropped. Hell, just look at all the people claiming Microsoft/Intel will never make a Windows machine with better battery life. In the mean time, from Windows 7 to Windows 8 developer preview to Windows 8 consumer preview, my Series 7 Slate went from 3 hours on battery (Watching video) to 3.5 hours on battery to 4.8 hours on battery. Not sure how much better they'll do when it's released, but I'm expecting a comparable Ivy Bridge with LP-DDR3 on the same design otherwise will get 8 hours or more especially since the new graphics controller will offload even more processing and spend its time in sleep. But yet, people will say "Intel and Microsoft SUCK at battery life" and no matter what technology Intel and Microsoft add, people will always be like "ARM and Android or ARM and iOS will always be better" yet a comparable ARM and Android or iOS will consume just as much power. It won't matter. It's built into our minds that Intel processors with Windows are made to heat homes.
Chevy should have never made the promises about efficiency they made. But of course they would never have been allowed to design the car if they didn't. So now, while the Volt sucks (though not as bad as people make it out to), GM has an initial design to build on. The Volt is their version 1 and probably not a bad attempt for a version 1, but it's years late and more than a few dollars short. If they get version 2 right, people might actually consider the value in buying one. But for now, $40,000 for what effectively i
I'm not sure what you're financial range is but a Tesla Model S base is about 50k and has a range of around 120 miles. It's a luxury sedan too. You won't be able to get one for a year or two though.
Hey dumbfuck, go back to wikipedia and look a few sentences up where they calculate the carnot efficiency of that automobile engine to be 73% Guess what? 35% is about 50% of 73% dipshit.
And nice job completely changing the subject with your 1mpg non sequitur. I can tell you right now it's not going to affect oil usage by more than a few percent, so suck my dick.
Hey retard, there is a pretty big difference between efficiency and Carnot efficiency. Hint: if you are achieving over 50% Carnot efficiency, there is no possible way for you to double your absolute efficiency.
Hey dumbfuck, go back to wikipedia and look a few sentences up where they calculate the carnot efficiency of that automobile engine to be 73% Guess what? 35% is about 50% of 73% dipshit. And nice job completely changing the subject with your 1mpg non sequitur. I can tell you right now it's not going to affect oil usage by more than a few percent, so suck my dick.
Wow, do you kiss your Mother with that mouth?
Wikipedia does say 35%, not 73% The 73% figure is THEORETICAL; but, as Wikipedia goes on to say "Due to the other causes detailed below, practical engines have efficiencies far below the Carnot limit; for example the average automobile engine is less than 35% efficient.
So, are you psychotic, or just illiterate?
'Nuff said.
And I don't think that non sequitur means what you think it does.
Look you inbred moron, I'll explain this very simply to you one final time:
Carnot efficiency is the maximum possible energy efficiency that any possible heat engine can achieve, when perfectly designed, engineered and operated without real-world constraints like friction and dirt.
If you are achieving 35% energy efficiency, and Carnot is 73%, to double your efficiency you need to create the PERFECT engine and operate it in a cleanroom. THIS KIND OF IMPROVEMENT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. If you are lucky you might be able to squeeze another 10% out with your ridiculous waste heat capture scheme.
All the bashers are talking trash, but have probably never even SEEN a Volt in person, yet feel they can comment on it.
My comments are based on the professional review by Edmunds. I put a lot more faith in Edmunds than in the comments of an Anonymous Coward on Slashdot. Edmunds says the Volt gets low 30s on gas. http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2012/?sub=hatchback#fullreview
"In an Edmunds test of a Volt with the battery pack depleted, the car averaged 31.4 mpg in mixed driving. This isn't a bad mileage figure compared to regular gas vehicles, but it is seriously subpar when compared to the mid-40s mpg that a standard hybrid typically provides."
So sorry, but you're full of it.
There - seeing a name make you feel better? Want some cookies? As to quoting Edmunds, at least quote it without changing it - they claim 33mpg, which is still off, at http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2012/?sub=hatchback
Lies, misleading, and BS is all you folks can come up with. And as to electric range, here;s a pic of my dash this morning, after driving in almost 20mi:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l33/Sharkonwheels/2012%20Chevrolet%20Volt/IMG_20120306_095705.jpg
as you can see, the center console computer says I travelled 19.2mi, consumed 4.9kWh, and if you check the dash, oh my, what's it say? Yes. 21mi left.
Want me to help you with the math? that's almost 41mi. estimated. And guess what, I did the almost 20 home again, and the dash STILL said I had 5mi left in EV mode.
Want me to help you remove that foot that you so vehemently shoved down your throat?
You're quoting some dumbasses you've never met - I'm taking pictures of my dash. We done Einstein? Or you want more pictures and proof?
Oh, and if you look even HARDER at the center console, you'll see it says 66.6mpg lifetime. And that's with dealership idiots putting a couple hundred miles on it, and not driving efficiently.
Never ceases to amaze me the gullibility of people, and believing everything they read as if it's the gospel. How about getting off the computer, and learning a few things on your own, and gathering your own information, instead of taking the lazy way and having someone else do it for you? Knowledge is empowering. Ignorance is the easy way out.
There is no such thing as a muscle car with a V6. Try again.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"