Valve Switching Team Fortress 2 To Free-To-Play Increased Revenue Twelvefold

An anonymous reader writes "We've frequently discussed the growing trend among video game publishers to adopt a business model in which downloading and playing the game is free, but part of the gameplay is supported by microtransactions. There have been a number of success stories, such as Dungeons & Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online. During a talk at the Game Developers Conference this week, Valve's Joe Ludwig officially added Team Fortress 2 to that list, revealing that the game has seen a 12-fold increase in revenue since the switch. He said, 'The trouble is, when you're a AAA box game, the only people who can earn you new revenue are the people who haven't bought your game. This drives you to build new content to attract new people. There's a fundamental tension between building the game to satisfy existing players and attract new players.' He also explained how they tried to do right by their existing playerbase: 'We dealt with the pay-to-win concern in a few ways. The first was to make items involve tradeoffs, so there's no clear winner between two items. But by far the biggest thing we did to change this perception was to make all the items that change the game free. You can get them from item drops, or from the crafting system. It might be a little easier to buy them in the store, but you can get them without paying.'"

Comments

freemium only works on stupid people

[Anonymous Coward]

freemium only works on stupid people... fortunately most people are stupid.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[The MAZZTer]

I only paid like $30 for the Orange Box when it came out. Valve has given me above and beyond my money's worth over the past 4+ years so I have no problem buying a key every so often to pay them back.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Truekaiser]

i know this is trying to be a troll but he is correct. the fremium model prey's on the inability of many people to not only add the micro transactions together. but also disrupts how people gauge the 'value' of the product by infusing emotional attachments into the mix.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[HCase]

Also, only idiots pay anything more than a penny for a humble bundle. /s

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[MightyYar]

prey's on the inability of many people to not only add the micro transactions together. but also disrupts how people gauge the 'value' of the product by infusing emotional attachments into the mix.

Screwing with our brain wiring is sort of how video games (or board games, for that matter) get us to buy them in the first place. There's nothing rational about buying a video game for $50 and then wasting tons of time playing it - it's a purely emotional experience. If running around smashing ogres is what gets your endorphins going, great. If buying Farmville charms does it, who is to say that emotional response is any worse?

Now's when people will start in with this-or-that study that shows that video games sharpen this-or-that skill, as if that's why they bought the game!

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[oddjob1244]

Valve's freemium model is different. The paid content doesn't give you a huge advantage over the free content. Most of the addons are cosmetic and the weapons are balanced or worse than the stock weapons. You're still a competitive player with the free version of TF2, and if you play for a reasonable amount of time the paid content drops randomly anyway. Even if you wanted to sink a bunch of cash into TF2 to be better than everyone else, you can't. I mean, even the paid items can't be crafted.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Truekaiser]

no the humble indie bundles are 'pay what you want' the fremium model is called fremium because it's nicer then the actual description. 'pay to win'. the fremium model is designed to give those who don't pay a lesser experience then those who willingly ignore simple addition and pay for a weapon here(10 dollars), a perk there (12 dollars), double experience(10 dollars), unlocking classes(15 dollars), etc.

any way, anyone who DOES pay only ONE cent on a 'pay what you want' IS ripping them off. since they are giving you full, unhindered my any sort of these rip off schemes, games. on the good faith you give them a good amount of money. I pay more then the average for linux which in it's self almost always almost double what window's users pay.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[marnues]

So different people value different items in game differently, ergo the system is broken? Certainly there's a psychological factor involved with many small purchases vs 1 large purchase, but suggesting that people need to value a game purchase the same as many micro-transactions is ludicrous. Sounds like old-man syndrome.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Anonymous Coward]

the fremium model prey's on the inability of many people to not only add the micro transactions together. but also disrupts how people gauge the 'value' of the product by infusing emotional attachments into the mix.

That business model is older than dirt.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[marnues]

If a game is pay to win, it'll eventually lose it's customer base. You may have noticed that TF2 is explicitly trying not to be pay-to-win. I'm not a user, so I don't know, but at least they are trying. And eventually a functioning model where game designers are encouraged to improve the game while gamers can't just "pay to win" will develop.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[vux984]

The paid content doesn't give you a huge advantage over the free content.

So it gives you a minor advantage over the free content?

Is that actually "good" or just "better than worst case"?

My problem with freemium even when done "right" or whatever you want to call it is still is unacceptable to me at a fundamental level:

I -do- not want to be confronted with real life purchasing decisions every few minutes while playing games. Period. I don't want to be dropped into a "store" everytime I die. I don't want to be prompted to buy something everytime I start up, and every time I quit, and every time a new level loads.

I don't want to asked to evaluate whether or not some two dozen different micro-items is worth $X to me.

I don't want any of it. I don't want to subject my kids to it either.

That saod, I don't mind expansion packs. 20 new tracks and 5 new cars for $10 bucks or whatever is perfectly fine. But don't advertise it in the game so that I have to explicitly decline buying it every time I play... and don't break it up into micro-transactions... $1 per track, 1$ per car... I don't want to excert the mental process of deciding is this car worth a buck, is this car worth a buck, is this car worth a buck to me... I just don't.

And don't have me competing with people in the expansion pack cars if they are anything more than just skins.

Remember even "Situationally better" is still better if you get any control over the situation, which of course, unless you are an idiot... you always do.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Anonymous Coward]

any way, anyone who DOES pay only ONE cent on a 'pay what you want' IS ripping them off.

Good. That's the point.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[sexconker]

If a game is pay to win, it'll eventually lose it's customer base. You may have noticed that TF2 is explicitly trying not to be pay-to-win. I'm not a user, so I don't know, but at least they are trying. And eventually a functioning model where game designers are encouraged to improve the game while gamers can't just "pay to win" will develop.

TF2 is absolutely pay to win.
The goal of the game is to collect all the hats and useless crap.

I hop on TF2 every once in a while only to find that no one is actually playing TF2. Control points? Intelligence briefcase? The cart? Nope. No one gives a shit about those things. They only care about farming shit and running around like retards.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Baloroth]

the fremium model is designed to give those who don't pay a lesser experience then those who willingly ignore simple addition and pay for a weapon here(10 dollars), a perk there (12 dollars), double experience(10 dollars), unlocking classes(15 dollars), etc.

Not if done right. TF2 does it right (I haven't played much since they went F2P, granted): all the classes are unlocked by default. None of the unlockable weapons are overtly more powerful than the defaults. Some are certainly easier to use, or more effective with certain play-styles (or overpowered on certain maps, etc), but all of them have some sort of draw-back for whatever advantage they give, so unlocking a new one is more of a side-ways shift rather than an upwards one. Also, you can unlock everything in TF2 (with 1 or 2 pretty rare exceptions, usually special cosmetic items) just by playing it, so long as you have, at one point in the past, paid any money at all for the game (buying an item or buying the game pre-F2P).

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Hadlock]

You're forgetting the fact that without a player base, a game dies. Particularly multiplayer, which is all that TF2 is. By introducing it as F2P, Valve probably quadrupled the player base overnight. Not only that, but they introduced them in to a game with hundreds of bugfixes, content updates and major graphical overhauls. All of which had already been paid for. Even while most of those freepers will never buy anything in the store, they provide the much needed player base for those who are spending money in game to play with. They're mainly playing on third party servers, so by opening up the game to anyone, they've increased the game's perceived value at no additional cost to valve or the end user, while allowing the game's popularity to flourish.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no paid content in tf2 that can't be obtained through other means, either by trading, crafting, or simply having the item "drop" like an mmo (it just appears between lives while playing, you usually get 10 a week or so if you play a lot). The most expensive content is vanity items, hats or other facial accessories, but those can be obtained via the above methods as well. Several of the earlier ones are available through achievements as well. Most of the strongest items for all classes are the original weapons (or ones available via achievements) - new stuff tend to be sidegrades or gimmicks (but still relatively easy to obtain if you are actually interested in them).

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[chispito]

There's nothing rational about buying a video game for $50 and then wasting tons of time playing it - it's a purely emotional experience. If running around smashing ogres is what gets your endorphins going, great.

Wait wait, don't tell me--I think I can figure out on which side of the "Can Video Games Be Art?" debate you fall.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[VGPowerlord]

The paid content doesn't give you a huge advantage over the free content.

So it gives you a minor advantage over the free content?

We're talking about TF2 still, right?

The thing about "paid content" in TF2 is that you can get any of the non-cosmetic items over time, as you get 6-8 random weapons per week. There are also 27 weapons (3 per class) that can be unlocked through achievements. Weapons can also be crafted, but I'll be honest: It's better to wait for a random drop, because 6-8 items a week makes it take a long time to craft even one weapon, let alone multiple.

The major problem with f2p accounts is that there are restrictions on them until you buy your first item from the store. In USD, the cheapest item is $0.49, but Valve has a minimum of $5 for adding funds to your Steam wallet... however, you can use the remaining $4.51 towards anything on Steam, including games.

My problem with freemium even when done "right" or whatever you want to call it is still is unacceptable to me at a fundamental level:

I -do- not want to be confronted with real life purchasing decisions every few minutes while playing games. Period. I don't want to be dropped into a "store" everytime I die. I don't want to be prompted to buy something everytime I start up, and every time I quit, and every time a new level loads.

I've never had a TF2 free account, but from my understanding is that it bugs you once when you start the game with one of the game's characters having a text bubble mentioning it on the main menu. This is the only time the store is mentioned. other than having a button on the main menu for it. This text doesn't appear if you've ever bought anything from the store or bought TF2 itself from a store (or bought the Orange Box from a store or through Steam).

That saod, I don't mind expansion packs. 20 new tracks and 5 new cars for $10 bucks or whatever is perfectly fine. But don't advertise it in the game so that I have to explicitly decline buying it every time I play... and don't break it up into micro-transactions... $1 per track, 1$ per car... I don't want to excert the mental process of deciding is this car worth a buck, is this car worth a buck, is this car worth a buck to me... I just don't.

When TF2 has new weaponry come out, they sell them as sets along with related cosmetic items, if you really want to pay for them. The catch is that they're ridiculously overpriced... and usually they're added to the drop system at the same time they come out. So, unless you really want the cosmetic items, there's little point in buying them.

And don't have me competing with people in the expansion pack cars if they are anything more than just skins.

Remember even "Situationally better" is still better if you get any control over the situation, which of course, unless you are an idiot... you always do.

I believe I've already addressed this point.

But more to the point, the way items are balanced in TF2, a lot of the times they're different rather than strictly better. One of the more controversial items from the Christmas 2011 update was the Spy-cicle.

The Spy-cicle is a melee weapon for the Spy... all Spy melee weapons do instant-kill backstabs. Note: Spies can disguise as enemy players, which becomes important in the description below.

The Spy-cicle prevents the usual death screams from players, but instead makes a freezing sound and leaves an ice statue behind instead of a corpse. It can also be used to prevent fire damage (and makes the extinguishing sound when this happens) for 2 seconds at the expense of the Spy losing the Spy-cicle for 15 seconds.

The thing is that its upsides and downsides are tied together. Sure, I can prevent fire at the expense of being able to instant-kill b

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Anonymous Coward]

> > any way, anyone who DOES pay only ONE cent on a
> > 'pay what you want' IS ripping them off.
> Good. That's the point.

Yeah! Fuck charity with their toys for kids and fighting SOPA and shit! I got hats to buy with that money!

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[broken_chaos]

The issue is how much money they can get for that endorphin release, and how often they can continue to get it.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[LesFerg]

Maybe you are choosing the wrong server. Some server descriptions include words like "achievements server" or "trading server". I don't use them expecting hard out action, I choose other servers. There is most certainly a lot of full on action going on, and play to win usually means support your team to make it win.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Kreigaffe]

Yeah.

Hats don't help you win.

What you describe isn't a competitive game but a social one -- collecting meaningless bits of fluff that look neat but serve no purpose.

Pay to win implies that forking over money gives you an advantage over players who haven't. Hats confer no such advantage. You just mad.. for some reason I can't even begin to understand.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Anonymous Coward]

TF2 has unlockable weapons. Some of those weapons are distinctly better than the base weapons, and they in any case give the user who has them more flexibility than the user who doesn't. How is that not the very definition of "pay to win"?

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[NemosomeN]

I play TF2 quite a bit. Nothing that can actually give you an advantage is buy-only. This includes someone else buying something, and you trading for it. You can get every game-changing item without paying a cent. I bought the game, so I have never had a free-only account, but it's my understanding that you need to have a premium account to trade, which means you have to spend at least 50 cents on a item. Once you've done that, however, you can basically get any game-changing item you want. Things randomly drop while you are playing, but there are 9 classes. Trade any two weapons, and you can get any one weapon you want, generally. It is VERY easy to become competitively equipped with one class, and only takes a month or so of playing to become competitively equipped for all classes you would likely play regularly. TF2 is without a doubt the model of Free-to-Play gaming, from a business perspective. I have bought a few keys, but the impact has been nothing but cosmetic.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Cwix]

Yes, but you also find a good number of weapons just by playing. Yes, I purchased the game before the play to win thing, but I have never purchased any weapons and I routinely score in the top on my team. I'm not even that good of a FPS player.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Anonymous Coward]

the fremium model prey's on the inability of many people to not only add the micro transactions together. but also disrupts how people gauge the 'value' of the product by infusing emotional attachments into the mix.

I believe "I'm a victim" statements, such as this, are not only idiotic but patronizing. You're basically saying a) a person is too stupid to understand simple math but b) they're inability to manage money or that they find value in something you find value-less is some how the fault of the company that is selling a product.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Xeno man]

If you are willing to put in some time, eventually you can earn those exact same weapons. With a bit of time the playing field is still level and skill is more important. The only advantage of paying is you can buy the weapon and have it now. Most weapons in TF2 are fairly well balanced so even someone that buys every single weapon versus someone with stock weapons will still be fairly even.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Anonymous Coward]

We have clearly established precedents for regulating slot machines which exploit the same responses.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[spire3661]

Pick a better server. I play on the same several servers all the time. Play on a server with active admins, the guys who actually run it and pay the bills.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[TheLink]

And that includes more people being able to play TF2 from more cybercafes. Some cybercafes may not have wanted to pay for TF2 for each machine.

More people at cybercafes going "hey what's that game he's playing? Let's try it instead of CS/L4D".

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[modmans2ndcoming]

WTF are you talking about?

In almost all the freemium games, 10 bucks buys A LOT more than just a stupid weapon. I paid 10 bucks in Star Trek On Line and bought about 180K dilithium....that paid for full upgrades to all my ships for the first two thirds of the levels. I could have farmed the dilithium, but I am lazy.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Anonymous Coward]

Humble Bundle is run by a bunch of Linux faggots. I buy 500 bundles at 1 cent every time just so the can lose a couple of magnitudes more money in processing fees than I pay.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[modmans2ndcoming]

Shoot... I still use the standard flame thrower and rack up the kills. A weapon is meaningless if you don't know how to use it.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[modmans2ndcoming]

WTF? just use the stock weapons. The new weapons are just more interesting to play with. hacking a guys head off with a sword for example...cool and intimidating....but you can only run in a straight line so all the victim needs to do is step to the left or right and shoot you.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Miseph]

You seem to be implying that art is rational and objective. Art is neither, it is emotional. Video games most certainly ARE art, and just as purchasing art is most certainly NOT a rational activity, neither is purchasing video games. That doesn't make spending money on either foolish or bad, rationality is not a measure of morality or other subjective values.

Most people, whatever they believe, are hugely in favor of engaging in some degree of irrationality. Anything you do that does not directly improve your material condition on strictly survival and evolutionary measures is, ultimately, irrational... which ironically includes a dogged commitment to doing only those things which are most obviously rational, as doing so would almost certainly lead to social isolation and associated difficulty with both survival and reproduction.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Canazza]

There are two free-to-play models that I've seen
Pay to Win and
Pay for Time

Pay to Win involves payment-only items that give a distinct advantage over other players. Games like APB contain Pay-To-Win models. Sure, these Pay-to-win items in the hands of an idiot will not confer any advantage over a skilled player with base weapons, but pay-for-exclusive weapons with unique properties (in the case of APB, silencers) scream Pay-to-win. I'm told there are some MMOs that follow this route, but I don't know which ones they are. World of Tanks I think got brought up but I don't even know if that's actually an MMO.

Pay for Time involves paying for items that you could otherwise get if you played the game for longer, and give no advantage other than you play the game for less amounts of time. In a game like LoL most things (i believe) are open to everyone with enough XP, but XP is so much of a dribble for non-paying customers that the incentive is there to speed that process up with a bit of cash. Same goes for the in-beta Tribes Ascend and, ofcourse, Team Fortress 2. Lord of the Rings Online has this model (sort of) on top of a pay-for-content model (buying questing areas) which can be bought using in-game points (that you can earn X per day, or suppliment with cash) but good luck buying it that way. You'll need to grind for weeks just to get it for free.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[LittleImp]

Did you even bother reading the article? "But by far the biggest thing we did to change this perception was to make all the items that change the game free. You can get them from item drops, or from the crafting system. It might be a little easier to buy them in the store, but you can get them without paying"

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[TapeCutter]

Which in a competitive market will ultimately result in the optimium endorphine hit per buck ratio. I'm nearing retirement so l'm hoping they perfect this before my "sunset years", just in case I'm alergic to morphine or something.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Luckyo]

Pay for game time is not free. You cannot play for free because you have to buy game time. Only pay to win is "free to play, pay to win".
A far closer to "free" model is buy to play, where you buy the box and play forever. Aka the classic sales model.

The other truly free to play model is advertisement supported one.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Terrasque]

So it gives you a minor advantage over the free content?

It gives you alternatives..

Like one Heavy alternative weapon, "Natasha", slows enemies it hits, BUT does only 50% damage compared to stock weapon.

Or "Brass Beast", 20% more damage, but takes much longer time (50%) to start firing, and you can hardly move (60% slower) while it's spun up.

Or, the "Tomislav". Spins up faster (40%), no spin up sound, But does less damage (-20%).

Which one is the best weapon? Also, keep in mind you can only change weapons before spawning. Each one of the alternatives are specialized versions of the main weapon, better in some cases, but worse in others. And you're locked to that choice until you die.

Take the Brass Beast, and you're better suited for defending, but almost useless for attacking. The Tomislav, and you have to sneak up on people. Not that easy for a slow moving mountain.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[billcopc]

See... that's what I like about the way Riot implemented their "freemium" content in League of Legends. You cannot buy power. In fact, you can buy almost everything with in-game points (IP), which you earn by playing the game. The only things you cannot obtain for free are skins and IP/XP multipliers. To buy the "power" items, which are runes, you must play until you've earned enough IP. And finally, there are items that can be bought with either IP or money, such as extra champions or rune pages. It becomes a tradeoff between playing time and money. Those who have the extra disposable income can spend it, those who don't can still enjoy the game in its entirety.

I played it for a year without spending a single penny, got to the max level, had a few champs all tricked out and was not missing out on any features. Skins are purely vanity items, but they are still immensely popular. They cost something like $7.50 each. I probably own a dozen or so, for my most played champs. Some of them have different sound effects. It's really just a fun little vanity toy and way to "tip" the game devs for the countless hours of enjoyment I've had with the game.

On the other hand, "pay to win" games are vile, offensive filth in which I refuse to take part. If the whole purpose of a game's design is to artificially cripple free players and force them to pay in order to have any fun, it should have been payware in the first place. Valve knows this all too well, and they specifically avoid releasing game-breaking paid items for TF2, because then the only people having fun will be the ones who spend the most money, which cannibalizes your user base and quickly destroys it. You can buy useless hats, which are just doodads to satisfy your OCD and brag about, and that's perfectly fine.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[MightyYar]

Wait wait, don't tell me--I think I can figure out on which side of the "Can Video Games Be Art?" debate you fall.

Well, it's not really germane, but I happen to think they should be regarded as artistic works - at least as much as a Hollywood film, for instance.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Roujo]

And even then, all of those weapons can be obtained as random drops, of which you get a certain number during the week. That was the system before TF2 went F2P, the only difference now being that you can bypass the waiting time and buy the weapons to get them /now/.

My take on this is that yes, technically, a new player who buys all the weapons has more flexibility than a new player who goes purely F2P, and as such might have an edge if he knows what weapon to use in what situation. A few months down the road, though, the latter will have dropped some weapons and gotten others from achievements, making it all even out - skill level being equal. That's another thing, too: even if you had all of the weapons the game offers, they are designed in such a way that - with a couple of exceptions - they only give you /situational/ advantage. Here are a few examples:

• - The Backburner, a Flamethrower replacement, hits hard from behind so it's good for ambushes, but then again returning projectiles is more costly, making you more vulnerable to Soldiers and Demomen.
• - The Ullapool Caber, a melee replacement for the Demoman, hits and explodes for a tremendous amount of damage, but does so only once before becoming next-to-useless and damages you as a side-effect.
• - The Equalizer, a melee replacement for the Soldier, hits very weakly at first, but ramps up in damage and speeds you up as your life points get low. Then again, wielding it prevents Medics from healing you, so you have to watch out for that.

So it's all a game of knowing what weapon works best in what situation, as very few weapons are straight upgrades to the ones you have at first, and that knowledge cannot be bought in the in-game store. Even if it did, IMO it's only a matter of time before F2P newbies catch up and learn to use them, eventually leading to a somewhat even playing field - once again, all skill being equal. I have seen my brother, a one-year player with plenty of weapons and FPS experience, get owned repeatedly over a single game by my F2P girlfriend, back when it had just become free. That was simply because she had dropped /one/ weapon and it so happened that the game mode we were playing made that weapon/class combination very useful.

So yeah. All in all, I think Valve succeeded in finding the balance between Pay-to-Play and Pay-to-Win. If you are F2P, your item storage /is/ smaller, but it's still functional. You can also only receive items in trade, not give them away, sure. Buying any item in the store, the cheapest costing 50 cents, removes all of those restrictions /permanently/, though, and if you ever fill your F2P backpack or really need to trade for that one weapon you want, maybe this game really is worth at least 50 cents.

Oh yeah, and also: hats.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[SoTerrified]

I've spent many hours playing TF2 over the years. (I was a fan of TF, so I bought TF2 full price when it was released.) Occasionally, there will be a technical issue with Steam where it can't access your 'earned' items, so you get a default loadout. In other words the same items you get when you first start playing. And I've got enough experience/skill that I'm able to do quite well, usually scoring in the middle of the pack with that gear. That's my proof that they are doing it right. Experience/skill is not handicapped by not having the latest and greatest.

Oh, and I haven't spent *any* money on TF2 other than my initial purchase, yet over the years I have picked up pretty much all the weapons from random drops and crafting. I don't have a ton of hats, but I have at least one unique one per class, and that's all I ever really wanted. BTW my lack of buying isn't because I don't love TF2 (I do love it) but more because when I'm on Steam, whenever I look at buying something, I get distracted by a new shiny game and spend my money there instead. :)

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus Christ, how is this modded insightful. Perhaps you should play the bloody game. You aren't confronted with anything you don't want to be - you have to specifically decide to go to the store.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[Slider451]

GP is not saying "pay for game time", i.e. subscription. He's saying you can compress time by purchasing tools that will lessen the grind. In LOTRO, for example, you can purchase XP accelerator and slayer multiplier scrolls that lessen the number of mobs you need to kill for the next level or quest credit. By not buying these aids you just have to invest more play time, i.e. grind. But game time in F2P is free.

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[VGPowerlord]

I've spent many hours playing TF2 over the years. (I was a fan of TF, so I bought TF2 full price when it was released.) Occasionally, there will be a technical issue with Steam where it can't access your 'earned' items, so you get a default loadout. In other words the same items you get when you first start playing. And I've got enough experience/skill that I'm able to do quite well, usually scoring in the middle of the pack with that gear. That's my proof that they are doing it right. Experience/skill is not handicapped by not having the latest and greatest.

I really hate to play Spy with the stock loadout... I'm far too used to the Dead Ringer by now, having used it for... er... probably over 300 hours now (I've clocked nearly 800 hours as Spy in the last 4 years). Which is funny, since I originally thought the DR was trash and that I'd never use it.

Most of my other primary loadouts would be fine with stocks, though. The only other ones that might give me problems are Pyro (Degreaser, Flare Gun, Axtinguisher/Homewrecker) and offensive Engineer (Gunslinger is key).

Re:freemium only works on stupid people

[sexconker]

Yeah.

Hats don't help you win.

What you describe isn't a competitive game but a social one -- collecting meaningless bits of fluff that look neat but serve no purpose.

Pay to win implies that forking over money gives you an advantage over players who haven't. Hats confer no such advantage. You just mad.. for some reason I can't even begin to understand.

When the game is about collecting pointless shit, then paying to get that pointless shit instantly is paying to win.
The game has been about collecting pointless shit for about 2 years now. No one actually plays the game.

Hats off to Valve

[decipher_saint]

Congratulations guys ;-)

Re:Hats off to Valve

[baenpb]

I see what you did there ;)

Re:Hats off to Valve

[Anonymous Coward]

Oblig. CAD

Re:Hats off to Valve

[Anonymous Coward]

CAD is never obligatory.

Re:Hats off to Valve

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that makes one of us. Whoosh! (For me, I don't get it, I'm being retarded...)

We have a winner

[LostCluster]

Call it freemium, call it widget frosting, call it whatever you want... giving the core item away and selling the addons has always worked in the gaming industry and this is just another victory for the concept.

Re:We have a winner

[Anonymous Coward]

giving the core item away and selling the addons has always worked

FTFY

See razors & blades as prior art.

Re:We have a winner

[r1348]

Or HP printers and inks...

Re:We have a winner

[marnues]

Not in the slightest. I can play TF2 without paying a cent. I cannot user a razor without a blade. The first is paying for additional content. The second is rent seeking.

Re:We have a winner

[thaylin]

Freemium does not "Always" work. It only works on games designed specifically for them, and games that are massive flops, and even in those cases it is not guaranteed. Blizzard would not make more money off WOW using this model then it does off free to play. Almost all (and I say that even though I have not seen a good freemeium game, but cant rule them all out) games of this type of in general trash that cators to people who just want to pay to win, not to have an experience or to see a story.

Re:We have a winner

[Phrogman]

Go try Lord of the Rings Online. The transition from pay to free went much better than I thought it would, and the end result is still a good game.

Re:We have a winner

[Anonymous Coward]

Razor and Blade! They're flakes!

Re:We have a winner

[rtb61]

There is more to free to play, there is a big difference between player versus enemy and player vs player. In the player versus enemy, paying cash makes the game quicker and easier (those with less time on hand are more likely to spend than those with more time available to play).

Player versus player is a whole different. Underlying that game is the ability of publisher agents to enter the game fully kitted out to kick the arses of players not spending enough. Player versus player, the inevitable winners are those willing to spend the most hard cash.

So the flops in free to play are trending as the player versus player rather than player versus enemy. Everyone learnt from childhood spoilt brats make crappy play mates and free to play, player versus player favours spoilt brats, with the expected turn off for the majority of players.

Free to play requires the ability to avoid player versus player interaction in order to maintain a larger player base.

Lord of the Rings game play is boosted by the sales of expansion packs, revenue for them and game improvements for the players. Basically bringing infinite upgrades of operating systems and commercial software to the gaming environment. Works well for LOTRO, an enjoyable MMO without the need for a monthly subscription fee (sort of, more like a six monthly expansion pack fee, still a lot of game play per dollar).

Re:We have a winner

[Push Latency]

As a person who has played LOTRO since beta, and has lead a large kinship the whole time, I have witnessed all of the best people leave, now including myself. The departures have been 100% due to the changes that came with the move to free-to-play. It's actually quite relieving, because I never had an intention to lead a large MMO guild, but the game was so good, was so convincing and immersive, that it didn't feel like I was playing an MMO, rather, it felt like I was engaging Tolkien's world. It definitely doesn't feel like that anymore!

Re:We have a winner

[FluffyBob]

Well the subject of the article, TF2 is a huge counter example to your post. It is entirely pvp and there is really no advantage against f2p players. If you put your time into the game you will get all the items needed to be competitive. A cool hat or strange weapon does not make you any tougher. All of my preferred weapons are from achievements, drops or crafting. You can pay 20 buck for a package of starter weapons, but play for a couple weeks and you will have what you need anyway. Just try to resist opening that mysterious crate for a measly couple of bucks though...

Re:We have a winner

[Oligonicella]

You don't know how to strop and use a straight-edge? There are whole groups of collectors who will help you.

It wasn't rent seeking, men got tired of the blade maintenance. Disposable blades and electric shavers replaced them. Both used blade replacement instead of maintenance and were seen as much more convenient. Convenient enough that both methods are alive and well almost a hundred years later by consumer choice.

Good friend of mine is in a straight-edge collector's group. He swears by them but I just can't handle the idea of putting a razor-sharp blade to my throat. Doesn't geeb me out, it's just not going to happen.

Re:We have a winner

[Slider451]

You don't list anything specific that has changed for the negative and I'm not going to speculate for you. Maybe for you the game, and the stress of running a kinship, has run its course.

I joined Sept 2010 when the game went F2P and am still enjoying myself. The Tolkien lore is rich and the epic story very fulfilling. Without F2P I never would have tried LOTRO.

Re:We have a winner

[rtb61]

The number of players and the amount of time they play is also limited. TF2 soon gets boring for the majority of players, fine for twitch playing teens but it soon gets pretty repetitious for everyone else.

Farmville

[MrEricSir]

I was going to disagree with you, but then I realized Farmfille is the most popular "freemium" game ever and I was forced to change my mind.

what about

[epyT-R]

what about those of us who paid for a complete game? are we subject to 'freemium' now too? what a ripoff..

Re:what about

[Anonymous Coward]

Those who bought the games all won a very awesome, useless bagde!!

Re:what about

[AvitarX]

You got to play the game a lot earlier.

Re:what about

[Anonymous Coward]

Also the ability to play the game up to 4 years prior to the f2p people. And the ability to actually trade items and get vanity stuff (if thats your thing)

Re:what about

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah! All we got was four years of the best multilayer game on the planet! And what was that bullshit with it being bundled with Portal and Half Life 2: Episode 2? Who has even heard of those games!? Now people can get it for free? I'd have just waited if I'd known! RIP OFF RIP OFF RIP OFF! And what's with people discounting older games? They should have to refund the difference to me! It's not fair!!

Re:what about

[Anonymous Coward]

what about those of us who paid for a complete game? are we subject to 'freemium' now too? what a ripoff..

I paid ~$1600 for my 42" 1080p TV.

I can now get a 50+" 1080p TV for a fraction of what I paid.

HURR RIPOFF LULZ

You paid for the complete game, you got the complete game, several aeons ago. Prices fluctuate, and over time, go down. Stop being a whiny bitch and deal with it.

Re:what about

[muon-catalyzed]

I would not be surprised to see this happen to Counter-Strike soon, lots of people play that game all the time and only paid once years ago. So you want that shiny AWP? Behold the paywall! In fact that game could be pretty stuffed with premium content.

Re:what about

[LordLucless]

Yeah, you got ripped off. Just like you've always been ripped off when you pay full price at launch, compared to the people who buy it in the bargain bin for $10 4 years later.

Re:what about

[Lehk228]

if by "subject yo "freemium"" you mean "have a lot of new players to play with and more servers with active playerbases then yes.

Re:what about

[Baloroth]

You get all the content that was in the game before it went F2P, plus all the content afterwards, for free. Good enough?

Oh sure you need a tiny bit of grind to get some of the new items, but that actually adds a sense of accomplishment to getting the items. Likely, a lot of people would stop playing if they got all the new items automatically. It's no more evil than WoW (actually, far less evil than WoW, since there isn't a monthly fee). And it isn't like the new items give a much of an advantage, either: they chiefly just help with certain playstyles.

Re:what about

[poly_pusher]

I can't help but wonder if they would do that with Counter-Strike GO. It's interesting valve commented on the sales increase while GO is in Beta.

Re:what about

[FunPika]

That makes me wonder what the reaction of the last person who ever bought TF2 on Steam was when it went F2P....probably something like "WHAT THE FUCK? A $20 HAT?".

Re:what about

[Kreigaffe]

Won't happen, because Valve isn't stupid.

You can't have a successful, long-term F2P / microtransaction game that sells power. Locking the AWP behind a paywall would be selling power.

That's poison to the game in the long-term.

So is making it near-impossible to get the AWP without paying.

People know, sooner or later, when they're getting ripped off, or when people are trying to rip them off.
My mom used to play games on Facebook. Honestly, they weren't bad -- not my cup of tea, but I tried one or two and heck, I've wasted time on sillier things! Came a time when she wanted to buy some stuff, not because she needed it, but because she thought it'd be neat. She brought the idea up to me, I told her go nuts! She didn't feel as if she had to pay to continue playing, and it was a few bucks; no harm, everyone wins. They get money, she gets a new thing, all-around positive experience.

Then Zynga started having financial problems, and their games changed to make you feel as if you needed to give them money to play the whole game.
She quit most of the games she was playing (except for one, I think), and no longer considers giving them money.

It's cool when it's entirely your choice, and kills the game when it becomes a necessity to play the game.

Re:what about

[Ihmhi]

Yeah! All we got was four years of the best multilayer game on the planet!

That's weird, I never received my free copy of Starsiege: TRIBES when I bought the Orange Box.

Re:what about

[Emetophobe]

You jest, but people were actually responding like that in droves on the steam forums after the original f2p announcement.

Re:what about

[epyT-R]

More like "you bought this game and now we're going to charge you again to really be able to continue playing it." Well if the future these publishers want is games-are-a-service, then the games are not worth $60 anymore.. they're closer to $0.25

Re:what about

[epyT-R]

sorry, the other point being that indian giving is not a way to retain loyal customers.

Re:what about

[Anonymous Coward]

The game wasn't so glitchy and unstable before it became free to play. There are over 2000 replies to threads on the Steam forum about endless driver crashing and buffer overflow errors from the game. So glad Valve is putting the extra profit to good use. They also haven't added moderation to their dedicated servers, which are becoming plagued with griefers and DOS attacks.

Re:what about

[LittleImp]

The orange box was the best deal ever, and then four years later the game is free? Noone is getting pissed at that. The also gave away Portal for free.

Re:what about

[Anonymous Coward]

Except this isn't true
1) Players who had TF2 earlier (most likely as part of the Orange Box) had a large lead in collecting items in crafting
2) The majority of the stuff people are buying in micro transactions are things they were spending extra money on before it went F2P.

IMO what really increased the revenue is that they made the Mann Co Crate drops post F2P much less of a crap-shoot so that paying $2.50 for a key to unbox one would actually get you something cool instead of a standard item or paint. Just about every crate series post F2P had a highly increased chance of "Strange" weapons.

Re:what about

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn your lesson, and never ever buy anything ever again. Wait in your hole until someone gives it to you for free.

Re:what about

[VGPowerlord]

That makes me wonder what the reaction of the last person who ever bought TF2 on Steam was when it went F2P....probably something like "WHAT THE FUCK? A $20 HAT?".

$10 hat, unless you meant they bought the Orange Box, in which case they paid $20 for the hat plus 4 other games. Those were the prices for the year or so before TF2 went f2p.

Oh, and of course, they don't have the f2p backpack and trade restrictions.

Re:what about

[AvitarX]

I didn't realize anything was taken away.

Pay to win

[Omnifarious]

I think keeping 'Pay to win' concerns at the forefront is the key. Nothing turns me off of a game faster than that. At least, when the game is one where I'm competing against other people online. When it's a single-player game, the idea that you have to pay in order to win really irritates me, but if it merely takes a fair amount more skill to win if you don't pay, then it's sort of OK.

Re:Pay to win

[Opportunist]

When I heard TF2 is going f2p I was fearing a p2w system, akin to many other f2p games where you are essentially the "product" for those that dump money on the makers because your tools, your weapons, your equipment just cannot hold a candle to theirs and you're, essentially, akin to some rather smart bot on easy difficulty level.

Valve solved the problem fairly well. As far as I can tell, you can have all the items for free that someone who spends money can have (well, aside of some vanity items without any effect in game). What happened is that you can either dump money on them to get the weapon you want NOW or you wait for the random system to drop one on you.

Also, the weapons in TF2 are not like in most other games where you don't touch your "newbie" gun anymore once you got something better. The fun part is that you don't get more powerful with more choice, you just get more versatility and more choice for certain situations. Pretty much every item that gives you some bonus in one area has some rather nasty drawback. A gun that slows the enemy does less damage, a rocket with more direct damage does less splash damage, a sniper gun that does more damage uses tracer rounds and gives away your position... you get the idea.

Re:Pay to win

[Suddenly_Dead]

What happened is that you can either dump money on them to get the weapon you want NOW or you wait for the random system to drop one on you.

At least half of the freemium games out there do this, and it's only marginally better if at all.

You can grind for a weapon, and eventually, after spending time slogging away with weak weapons, you'll reach the point where you've got equipment that you want for the class you like (hopefully). Or you can spend the money now, and immediately have the equipment you want.

Some of the weapons in TF2 certainly seem better than their free companions, and even just granting extra versatility in a game is still granting a distinct advantage to one player over another.

That is exactly the definition of a "pay 2 win" game. It might not be quite as horrifyingly imbalanced as some other games, but it's still tilted towards the paying players. I am mildly annoyed that I paid money for this when it was standalone and all I got was a stupid hat.

Re:Pay to win

[Opportunist]

Hmm... quite seriously, I play most of the time with stock items, there are only a select few that I actually consider interesting as an option, but they're usually for very special occasions that I could as well tackle with the stock items, it's just more fun to do it with the alternatives.

I couldn't really put my finger on any non-stock weapon and say that it is THE default choice for any of the classes. Most just "allow" you to stick with your class instead of switching to another one. Like, say, using a Huntsman instead of the usual sniper gun if you have to get into closer range. You could as well switch to a class that is more suited to mid-range combat. Brass beast is a superior gun if you're fighting standing battles, but that also means that you are out of luck as soon as the front moves because you won't be fast enough to catch up and keep your gun spinning.

Also, the stuff drops fairly regularly in TF2, there are only very few guns that I had to craft, most just somehow dropped into my lap sooner or later.

In a nutshell, we're far from the usual lamentations of F2P games where you are essentially the practice target for those that throw money at the game's maker. Mostly what matters to me is that you can get everything by playing that someone can buy (again, aside of vanity items like hats or badges or other trinkets), there is no "money only" weapon that blows the snot off everything else you could possibly get by playing alone.

Re:Pay to win

[Suddenly_Dead]

Again, even just being able to eventually have a weapon drop or craft it is something I'm not for. I just plain don't like being at a disadvantage just because I haven't devoted the same amount of time into a game or paid as much money as other players. Just not my cup of tea. I prefer even playing fields, especially for games I've paid retail for.

And that's even if it's "only" that I'm less versatile or have fewer options. There may be an item that suits my playstyle better. There may be an item that counters someone else on the server better. There may be an item that lets me sort of hybrid the classes, like you pointed out (mid/short-range scout). These obviously give a possible situational advantage to the person with more options.

Re:Pay to win

[Anonymous Coward]

There are definitely admins that run custom P2W TF2 servers. Paying players basically get to ravage the non-paying players.

Re:Pay to win

[Opportunist]

Hmm. Then I guess most FPS games these days are not to your liking, where you start out with a nominal set of weapons and get more choices as you play, be it due to "points" accumulated or due to achievements reached. And considering how it is a lot more serious with most games than with TF2 (I dimly remember... I think from a COH title, where getting that silencer made a HUGE difference...), IMO TF2 found that sweet spot between an even playing field and the sense of "reaching" another level by playing.

I bought the game, too, when it was still for sale, and I don't really feel cheated that it's free now. Maybe because I do actually have pretty much any weapons that you could now buy simply because I played and got them that way. In a sense, one could say that we, who bought it, got the time to get for free what people who get the game for free now can buy (or spend a lot of time on to accumulate).

Re:Pay to win

[Anonymous Coward]

Basically, if you learn to use one of the "non-standard" weapons, it can be useful. But the standard weapons are still balanced against them in other ways. The non-standard weapons aren't overpowered to the point that you would *never* use the standard ones once you got them. For example, the standard sticky-bomb launcher that the demoman class uses is faster to deploy and you can be pointed in any direction when detonating the bombs compared to the alternative "Scottish Resistance" one where you can deploy more than double the bombs, but they deploy more slowly and you have to point in the direction of the bombs to blow them up. In the right situation either one has huge advantages. Scottish resistance is particularly good for defense on certain maps and game types, whereas the regular one is somewhat better for offense.

All of this is distinctly different from those "level-up" style games where if you don't have the advanced weapons you are toast.

Re:Pay to win

[VGPowerlord]

I couldn't really put my finger on any non-stock weapon and say that it is THE default choice for any of the classes.

Soldier - Equalizer
Pyro - Degreaser
Medic - Ubersaw

Of course, two of those three are achievement unlocks.

Re:Pay to win

[tsm_sf]

You can grind for a weapon, and eventually, after spending time slogging away with weak weapons, you'll reach the point where you've got equipment that you want for the class you like (hopefully). Or you can spend the money now, and immediately have the equipment you want.

Or just trade for it like everybody else does. Nobody who actively plays this game thinks it's pay2win.

Re:Pay to win

[Anonymous Coward]

Then trade for it.

Re:Pay to win

[Suddenly_Dead]

And nobody who watches Football regularly thinks it's a waste of time. That's a silly statement.

Re:Pay to win

[Opportunist]

Equalizer:
Being the reward for 5 soldier achievements, I doubt anyone playing the soldier more than casually doesn't have it. Aside of that, ok, it's a powerful tool... provided you don't play against someone who actually knows how to kill you quickly...

Degreaser:
I don't get it, to be honest. I play Pyro a lot, but the Degreaser is by some margin my least favorite weapon. The lack of a sensible afterburn is a drawback I don't really appreciate, no matter how quickly you might switch weapons with it. Then again, my favorite way to kill enemies is with their own rockets so...

Ubersaw:
Another thing I don't get. Yes, it boosts your overcharge. At the price of being so close to me that I make sure you won't use it, so...

If anything, the combo of Frontier Justice/Wrangler/Jag is a bit more powerful than the original setup. But then again, it's not THAT much of an advantage that I'd say it's worthless to play without.

Re:Pay to win

[VGPowerlord]

I don't get it, to be honest. I play Pyro a lot, but the Degreaser is by some margin my least favorite weapon. The lack of a sensible afterburn is a drawback I don't really appreciate, no matter how quickly you might switch weapons with it. Then again, my favorite way to kill enemies is with their own rockets so...

It's 1 damage less per tick of afterburn damage, or 20 damage less total. However, with all the things in the game these days to extinguish players....

Oh, right, I forgot to mention the Degreaser works extremely well paired with either the Axtinguisher and/or Flare Gun.

Re:Pay to win

[Opportunist]

Well, you can avoid those. Or, like me, enjoy playing on them and find it highly amusing to ravage the paying players.

The key to all this...

[deciduousness]

I think the key to all of this for me, and why I like it over other similar models, is this statement:

"You can get them from item drops, or from the crafting system. It might be a little easier to buy them in the store, but you can get them without paying."

If you are lazy, you can pay. If you don't want to pay, you can work a little for it. Sounds good to me!

Re:The key to all this...

[CodeHxr]

Agreed. This works for businesses because, IME, people are lazy. I, personally, am not lazy (at least when it comes to gaming) and appreciate the sense of accomplishment associated with actually earning something.

Then again, I also tend to re-invent the wheel a lot just for the experience of having done so, so I expect I'm in a very small minority.

Hmm... does that mean I can get scholarships? Yay! :)

Re:The key to all this...

[AvitarX]

I like the way puzzle pirates did it.

Everything came from drops, and you needed gold to use certain things (kind of like a luxury tax). You could buy gold with in-game money/items, or real life money. The game economy itself remained the same as in the monthly subscription version though. No amount of money created game items from scratch (with the exception of gold). The general currency was pieces of eight.

Re:The key to all this...

[VGPowerlord]

It takes a long time to get all the items with a 6-8 item cap per week.

Oh, did Valve forget to mention that free players can receive items from trades, but not give items to others?

Re:The key to all this...

[brainzach]

Paying doesn't mean you are lazy.

Time is money. Maybe someone with a busy life doesn't want to spend 10 hours getting a $5 dollar item for free when they make $60 an hour in the real world.

Re:The key to all this...

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes a long time to get all the items with a 6-8 item cap per week.

So don't get all the items. Some of the best players I've seen in-game swear by the stock weapons.

Oh, did Valve forget to mention that free players can receive items from trades, but not give items to others?

Not... quite sure what relevance that has to this discussion...

Re:The key to all this...

[marnues]

I'd say you're the lazy one. I spend most of my time working and improving myself. That I have ample money to plop down for all the add-ons when I download TF2 is because I am not lazy. YMMV, some people just have money, others don't have to work as hard as I do.

Re:The key to all this...

[DreadPiratePizz]

The problem with this line of thought is that you've ALREADY decided to use your time for leisure and not for making money. There's no opportunity cost there; by playing the game you've already committed yourself to not making money. So you could either not make money and not have to pay, or you could not make money and have to pay. Which sounds better?

Re:The key to all this...

[WilCompute]

You mean it works like real life? If I want to change the oil in my car, I have to do a little work. If I don't I have to pay? I guess that makes sense.

P.S. We really need sarcasm punctuation.

Re:The key to all this...

[Overzeetop]

Actually, it means that if you don't have lots of free time, or prefer not to spend an inordinate amount of time in the game, you can still have a complete, fulfilling experience, leaving some of the drudgery time wasters behind. I means you can do more of the fun stuff with the time you spend.

Re:The key to all this...

[vux984]

If you are lazy, you can pay. If you don't want to pay, you can work a little for it. Sounds good to me!

Calling people who buy items "lazy" is all well and good.. but:

Its hard for someone smart not to be sitting there waiting for that rare to random spawn to calculate the number of hours they are spending trying to get X divided over the cost of X in some marketplace... at which point you realize that if you wandered around the city collecting cans you'd have had that item 3 months ago.

As soon as a game presents me with a choice like this it becomes very difficult for me to want to play the game at all.

When I work out that I can legitimately (ie not via cheating, or using some sort of hack/crack/bot/whatever... but using an officially supported and apporved method to) earn the in game "rewards" orders of magnitudes faster by NOT PLAYING the game -- i find that thoroughly disillusioning.

Now if getting item X is actually fun enough to motivate me to play even if I wasn't going to get item X that might be different. But few games are. The vast majority of games reward "grinding" -- the worst kind of least fun repetition to maximize ones odds of getting items you want. Whether you are stuck playing the same particular level/dungeon/map/scenario endlessly...

Or perhaps its just truly random, and then nothing you do affects whether you get it or not, and then finally receiving the "reward" is utterly pointless -- the guy next you got his the first guy he killed... the guy next to him will die of old age before fate favors him... talk about sucking the point out of it.

Re:The key to all this...

[rwv]

If you are lazy, you can pay. If you don't want to pay, you can work a little for it. Sounds good to me!

Sounds like: If you want a challenge, you can play the game. If you just want to get through the game, you can pay.

It does seem perfectly rational that there are people who get enjoyment from doing it the hard (time consuming) way and other people who get just as much enjoyment out of doing it the easy (expedited) way.

Re:The key to all this...

[LesFerg]

That has nothing to do with TF2 at all. There is no sudden change in the challenge of playing, or any real effect on the overall team dynamic or the need to keep moving and working on the team objective. Purchasing extras instead of waiting for them is most likely something you will do for your own personal amusement, after weighing up how much money you care to spend on a frivolity.

For instance, I don't really bother with extras for certain player roles that I don't use. I don't care if the spy has a new backstabbing weapon with nifty new sound effects; if a enemy spy gets behind me (and has clue) then I am in much the same predicament, regardless of whether said spy purchased what he is stabbing me with or if he just happens to never sleep.

Re:The key to all this...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you DO pay. You pay in TIME which creates value for Valve because instead of AI, they are harvesting your time to compete against other live players. Nothing is free.

Re:The key to all this...

[Suddenly_Dead]

Maybe I don't want to spend my limited gaming time playing a game where I'm at a disadvantage compared to all of the other players simply because I haven't invested as much time or money as they have? I don't play games to work at them, I play them for the enjoyment.

Re:The key to all this...

[vux984]

, you can still have a complete, fulfilling experience ... by paying not to have to play the game! Hurrah!

leaving some of the drudgery time wasters behind. I means you can do more of the fun stuff with the time you spend.

You mean the game has "drudery timewasters" literaly DESIGNED to be drudgery time wasters -- and then it offers you way to pay your way to leaving them behind?

You just came right out illustrated one of my points for me.

I mean seriously... how is this not offensive?

The motivation for game design is all wrong. Hey look at this boss, this level has a hidden area here and when you kill this boss you get a hint about it, and when you follow the hint, you get this item.

Boss... thats a nice item. Ok, make it so it only drops one time in 100 from the boss. And 7 out of 10 times, the room is just empty.

So on average a player will need to do it several hundred times to get the item.

But Boss that's drudgery and a waste of time.

Yeah, but we'll put the item in the market for $2 for anyone who is lazy.

Scratch that, make it drop 1 in 1000, and we can make it $5.00...

Granted TF2 doesn't necessarily follow this slippery slope down to the conclusion, but lots of freemium games certainly do.

But at the end of the day, I want to play games to escape from the real world, not be reminded in them that if I spent just a $1.50 more I could be having even more fun than I am right.

Because I don't know about you, because if the game is literally blackmailing me with drudgery and time wasters to try and lure another buck fifty out of me, that's not a game I want to play.

Re:The key to all this...

[brainzach]

You don't have to look at it as earning money. People pay extra money all the time to give themselves a better leisure experience. If paying money gives you an better experience then it is worth the price.

I just think it is like golf. Some people will want to buy the most expensive golf clubs and personal trainers because they believe it makes them better. Others are content saving money using their old equipment and grinding it out at the driving range. It is still a game based mostly on skill, so no one really judges you based on what approach you take.

Re:The key to all this...

[Ihmhi]

Or, you can sit in an idle server overnight, Check in the morning and you have your weekly allotment of items.

Re:The key to all this...

[Xeranar]

. . .Free players need only buy 1 item from the Mann Co. store to move up. I believe the cheapest item in the game hovers around .25 cents? Maybe 50 cents..It's still exceptionally cheap. Once again the upgrade weapons are accessible through crafting and achievements. Achievements can be done on achievement servers and would speed the play up all together. The argument is hollow because for some reason detractors desperately want to make this a greater ideological argument than it is. Valve made a great game and found the revenue stream propped up by giving it away and selling items there after.

Re:The key to all this...

[Anonymous Coward]

P.S. We really need sarcasm punctuation.

i see what you did there (even without sarcasm punctuation)

Re:The key to all this...

[Miseph]

Generally speaking, if you don't "invest" as much time as other players you are at a disadvantage no matter what. The best players are, typically, those who play the most...

If you keep losing at TF2, I posit that it's because you aren't as good as the people you're playing against and it doesn't matter what guns any of you are using.

Re:The key to all this...

[Suddenly_Dead]

Generally speaking, if you don't "invest" as much time as other players you are at a disadvantage no matter what. The best players are, typically, those who play the most...

If you keep losing at TF2, I posit that it's because you aren't as good as the people you're playing against and it doesn't matter what guns any of you are using.

Okay, this type of response is pretty annoying. I'm well past the age where I'd whinge over simply sucking at a game: I'm talking about uneven playing fields here. A game simply isn't as enjoyable or "fair" if I'm stuck with fewer options than the guy who plays every waking moment of his life playing. That is completely putting aside whether I'm winning or not. Losing because I suck is one thing; losing because I suck and the other person has better options is just obnoxious.

I also haven't seen the "more time = better" thing pan out all the time. I certainly held my own last time I played TF2 (yes, it's nowhere near as bad as some other F2P games), I regularly top public servers in other games with much higher-ranked players, and console games are just chock full of high-rank players who aren't any good. I've noticed it really helps with games that have more rote memorization to them though: doesn't matter how many times I play a map, I just can't remember weapon and powerup pickup locations :(

Re:The key to all this...

[VGPowerlord]

. . .Free players need only buy 1 item from the Mann Co. store to move up. I believe the cheapest item in the game hovers around .25 cents? Maybe 50 cents..It's still exceptionally cheap. Once again the upgrade weapons are accessible through crafting and achievements. Achievements can be done on achievement servers and would speed the play up all together. The argument is hollow because for some reason detractors desperately want to make this a greater ideological argument than it is. Valve made a great game and found the revenue stream propped up by giving it away and selling items there after.

I actually addressed this in another one of my posts. One of the guys in one of my (now former) gaming groups actually gave me Professor Speks when I pointed this out to them; they used the remaining $4.51 on some Indie games on Steam they were interested in.

(btw, if it wasn't obvious, I still play TF2)

Re:The key to all this...

[arth1]

It does seem perfectly rational that there are people who get enjoyment from doing it the hard (time consuming) way and other people who get just as much enjoyment out of doing it the easy (expedited) way.

A problem is that you can't tell. Did the guy get that gun and watch from lots of hard playing, or did he buy it with dad's card?

When having disposable income becomes as admirable as hard work, something is wrong from my leftist point of view.
I wouldn't mind if all bought items had a red LED or something that showed that they were, in fact, bought. So I can reserve the admiration for those who deserve it.

Re:The key to all this...

[rwv]

When having disposable income becomes as admirable as hard work, something is wrong from my leftist point of view.

Presumably the player with more disposable income is creating something that's worth considerably more in the real world than the person putting many hours of "hard work" into a video game. Both are admirable. In this case, the person who is seemingly worth more in the real world is potentially subsidizing the gaming experience for the real gamer. I think that's a good thing. What's more... I'd rather have video game companies sell-out to "non-gamers" who want the gaming experience than to advertisers who want your eyeballs to pay the bills. At the end of the day, if making video games doesn't pay the bills there will be fewer people making video games. So... while it doesn't suit my tastes, the fact that the "fremiuim" model works is a good thing.

Re:The key to all this...

[VGPowerlord]

You mean the game has "drudery timewasters" literaly DESIGNED to be drudgery time wasters -- and then it offers you way to pay your way to leaving them behind?

The thing is, in TF2, items are going to drop the first 7 or so hours you play a week starting at midnight UTC Thursday. It's best just to ignore them and just play, unless something you really wanted dropped (you'd then put it in your loadout).

For weapons that aren't exactly new, you can see if other players will trade them to you (although, unless you spend money in the store at least once, you can't trade items to them). A lot of people will trade weapons straight across for other weapons.

Also, sometimes Valve will bump up the drop rate for items immediately following their release. This was especially evident during the Uber update, when players were getting at least one of the brand new weapons a week... sadly, they didn't do this for the Australian Christmas 2011 update.

Scratch that, make it drop 1 in 1000, and we can make it $5.00...

There are exactly 116 droppable weapons in TF2:
17 Scout drops (3 Primary, 4 Secondary, 10 Melee)
14 Soldier drops (5 Primary, 6 Secondary, 3 Melee)
14 Pyro drops (3 Primary, 3 Secondary, 8 Melee)
13 Demoman drops (3 Primary, 3 Secondary, 7 Melee)
14 Heavy drops (3 Primary, 4 Secondary, 7 Melee)
09 Engineer drops (3 Primary, 2 Secondary, 4 Melee)
10 Medic drops (3 Primary, 3 Secondary, 4 Melee)
10 Sniper drops (4 Primary, 3 Secondary, 3 Melee)
12 Spy drops (4 Primary, 2 PDA, 6 Melee)
3 2-class drops (1 Secondary, 2 Melee)
1 7-class drop (1 Melee)

And when I say 116, this assumes certain reskins still drop, despite me having never receiving one: Unarmed Combat, Maul, Apoco-Fists, Wanga Prick, and Sharp Dresser.

You get between 6 and 8 random weapons per week, although these can be duplicates.

Oh, and the extra ones can be used to create metal, which can be used to craft the ones you want.

Re:The key to all this...

[VGPowerlord]

I've noticed it really helps with games that have more rote memorization to them though: doesn't matter how many times I play a map, I just can't remember weapon and powerup pickup locations :(

TF2's Engineer and Spy classes rely heavily on knowing where ammo boxes are in stages... the other classes as well to a lesser extent; the Medic less so than the others, as ammo is only used for his syringe gun/crossbow. The Spy uses ammo boxes to restore cloak for the Invisibility Watch and Dead Ringer. The Engineer needs ammo boxes to restore his metal when he's building a sentry nest; building a Dispenser first can help alleviate this problem. And by first, I mean first at your nest, as your first building should have been a teleporter entrance when you left spawn.

Actually, the Engineer's Eureka Effect wrench helps mitigate this if you have your teleporter up... you can teleport back to your spawn room by right-clicking then using the teleporter at spawn to get back to your nest... but you can no longer move your buildings once they're placed with this wrench.

Re:The key to all this...

[VGPowerlord]

For instance, I don't really bother with extras for certain player roles that I don't use. I don't care if the spy has a new backstabbing weapon with nifty new sound effects; if a enemy spy gets behind me (and has clue) then I am in much the same predicament, regardless of whether said spy purchased what he is stabbing me with or if he just happens to never sleep.

While you may not bother with them, it's still a good idea to know how they work.

For example, the Spy-cicle (the item you just described) not only makes a different stab sound, but it both suppresses the standard crit-death scream and leaves ice statues behind. Seeing an ice statue lets you know that there's a Spy in the area and to be on guard, using your allies deaths to give you information.

Likewise, you need to know what it means if you see a corpse fly past you through the air while cloaking the enemy's team color (i.e. do a 180 turn now before the Spy backstabs you with the YER)

Re:The key to all this...

[VGPowerlord]

TF2 gives you random weapons for the first 6-7 hours you play after the item server's week resets at midnight Thursday. If you don't play for a week, these 6-7 hours will carry over into the next week (so... 14-16 that week).

If you're not an f2p player, those 6-7 (14-16) hours also accrue towards the timer on the rarer cosmetic items, which take 1 or more months per drop.

However, the items you get are completely random. You could get the best weapon in the game as a drop (which is subjective), or the worst weapon ever (Sun-on-a-Stick). It can even be one you already have.

The same goes for the rarer cosmetic items. You could get a really nice item (like the Nine-Pipe Problem (Sherlock Holmes pipe for Medic added to the game yesterday)) or one of the worst hats ever (ex: Texas Slim's Dome Shine for Engineer).

In other words, how well you play has no bearing on what you get... you get them just for playing.

The other thing is, there are 27 unlockable weapons gotten via achievements. These weapons can't be used in crafting, but they're good for building up your initial weaponry. Five classes have lower requirements for achievement unlocks: Sniper, Spy, Soldier, Demoman, and Engineer because Valve lowered the required number of achievements for their unlocks. Medic, Heavy, Scout, and Pyro have higher requirements for unlocks... we're hoping that Valve will eventually fix this discrepancy like they did for the Medic unlocks once already..

Note: The unlocks do have some of the better weapons in the game... for instance, the Soldier's Equalizer, the Pyro's Axtinguisher, the Heavy's Sandvich, the Engineer's Frontier Justice and Gunslinger, the Medic's Kirtzkrieg and Ubersaw, the Sniper's Jarate, and the Spy's Dead Ringer.

There are also a good number of unlockable hats, but most of those are restricted to the Halloween holiday. The ones that aren't are the Ghastly Gibus (dominate someone who is wearing a Ghastly, Ghastlier, or Ghastlierest Gibus), Full Head of Steam (complete 7 cp_foundry achievements, the Alien Parasite (In Alien Swarm (free on Steam), play 3 levels online), and the Spiral Sallet (In Spiral Knights (free on Steam), venture into the Clockworks and reach the first rest stop).

Re:The key to all this...

[tsm_sf]

You can set up a local practice game and leave that running overnight. Same thing.

Re:The key to all this...

[Xeranar]

Even 5 dollars into the system is minimal. I was merely going at the issue of slashdot's love affair with black-white arguments realizing that TF2 is a nuanced subject that went F2P after years of sales and remains profitable by selling visual upgrades. In essence this particular case is a great model for extending the life of a multiplayer game more than anything to do with "Freemium" models.

Re:The key to all this...

[vux984]

golf is more about beating your own score than someone elses for most people.

And it has a whole handicap system in place so that when you do play against others if everyone plays there best they will end up even, regardless of how far apart their "best" actually is.

. If paying money gives you an better experience then it is worth the price.

And that's fine until you get into a competive game, where an equal footing off the line is sort of the entire point.

Pole position is a nice perk in racing... we can give it to the team that posted the best times in the qualifiers and previous runs... or just auction it off to the highest bidder...

Just because a team is willing to pay for pole position doesn't mean we should let them, does it? Some things need to be earned, letting people buy them takes their merit away from everyone.

Re:The key to all this...

[vux984]

Because -that- sounds like a good game design??

Why not just give you the items, without making you do something obviously stupid and a complete waste of time?

Re:The key to all this...

[vux984]

You mean it works like real life? If I want to change the oil in my car, I have to do a little work. If I don't I have to pay? I guess that makes sense.

Do you know a lot of people who want to play a racing game where they'd have to manually decide between spending 20 minutes simulating changing their oil, or paying real money to skip doing it manually before they could go on the next race?

Making something "Work like real life" isn't exactly the key to making good games.

The racing game would be pretty crappy if the guy in front of you loses control and turns your car into a flaming wreck. Then instead of racing the game is just years of simulated physical therapy. And you aren't allowed to stop playing unless you kill yourself ... for real.

You know... just like real life.

The RIAA/MPAA shou take notice!

[s.petry]

We already knew that Linux can be a profit area for business, even though it's "Free". Now we see that same thing working in Gaming.

It requires some new methodology, and business modelling of course. But it works!

I'm always glad to see success stories. This a great example. Steam in my opinion has done a great job creating a platform. TF2 plugging in and taking advantage, very smart!

Re:The RIAA/MPAA shou take notice!

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

They already have a microtransactions store. It's called iTunes.

Re:The RIAA/MPAA shou take notice!

[s.petry]

Don't try to fool people. iTunes is just a segment of the industry, not the industry as a whole. The industry management (RIAA and MPAA) do not want this model, and fight against it. Hence we had SOPA and PIPA being lobbied for, and lets not forget the constant stream of lawsuits, invalid DCMA take down orders, domain seizures, and other miscellaneous police actions.

Re:The RIAA/MPAA shou take notice!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but thats not the point. The actual music should be free, its the extra stuff that people should be paying for. What you said is equivalent to "well theres no need for micro transactions because people can already buy games in a place called a store."

Re:The RIAA/MPAA shou take notice!

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Don't try to fool people.

I won't.

iTunes is just a segment of the industry, not the industry as a whole.

Obviously.

The industry management (RIAA and MPAA) do not want this model, and fight against it.

Well, that explains why they flatly refused to sell their music on it. That did happen, right?

Hence we had SOPA and PIPA being lobbied for

Oh yes, for the famous anti-iTunes section! Wait, which section was that again?

and lets not forget the constant stream of lawsuits, invalid DCMA take down orders, domain seizures, and other miscellaneous police actions.

No, of course not. Tell me, are you sure you're replying to the right post?

Re:The RIAA/MPAA shou take notice!

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Not quite. Can you buy a single track, from any album no matter how old or obscure, for a dollar at a store? No; iTunes allows you to buy single tracks for microtransaction amounts.

However, if you want the music itself to be free, why not throw in youtube into the mix? Plenty of record labels upload to youtube these days. Combine youtube + itunes, you have the free + microtransactions model that the OP wanted.

Re:The RIAA/MPAA shou take notice!

[s.petry]

Absolutely sure. You said that the RIAA and MPAA already have an answer in "iTunes". Which is an absolutely false statement. As mentioned previously, iTunes is a segment of the market, not what the RIAA and MPAA agreed to. iTunes has record label support, not support from the industry heads.

By your logic, HBO and Netflix is the MPAA and RIAA answer to movies. It's not. The MPAA and RIAA hate this model with a passion.

business school 101

[slew]

A common truism you learn in business school is that it's usually easier (and less costly) to sell more to your existing customer than to try to get new customers...

If every new dollar you earn is less costly, you have more operating margin which you can then use to feed back into your business and make it grow faster. Thus cross-selling and up-selling techniques are really just no brainers that nearly everyone uses. Works in almost any business (including the gaming industry).

Auction games.

[mevets]

Don't auction games work this way? You 'win' by being willing to pay more than anybody else. Seems to be a proven model.

Where is EP3 / HL3

[Anonymous Coward]

Please people stop buying stupid hats and stuff for TF2. Every single time you dump money on that game it's less incentive for valve to spend money on other, one time cash cow, games like HL3 or HL2:EP3.
Why should they spend massive resources making a game people only buy once when they can get idiots spending real money on digital hats from now until valve runs out of pixels.

Valve has forsaken their loyal fans for a continual revenue stream from cretins with more money than sense. I've lost all respect for Valve...for shame.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[VGPowerlord]

Please people stop buying stupid hats and stuff for TF2. Every single time you dump money on that game it's less incentive for valve to spend money on other, one time cash cow, games like HL3 or HL2:EP3.
Why should they spend massive resources making a game people only buy once when they can get idiots spending real money on digital hats from now until valve runs out of pixels.

Most (all?) new items these days are community submitted, and the majority of those are cosmetic items. In other words, it's easy money for Valve because they don't even do most of the work.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[marnues]

What makes you think they won't be using this model in a new HL game? And since they have more money, they can hire more developers and make more games. Maybe you are missing the part where no one will pay for content in crappy games.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[sdnoob]

Most (all?) new items these days are community submitted, and the majority of those are cosmetic items. In other words, it's easy money for Valve because they don't even do most of the work.

they're mainly cosmetic because being a shooter-type game there really can't be *that* many different weapons ... and you can't 'pay to win' in tf2 unlike some (most? nearly all? other "f2p" games) as most weapon bonuses for non-default items are offset by (at least one) significant penalty... so that leaves cosmetic and other items or variants that do not affect game play.

furthermore, revenue from sale of 'community made' items is split between valve and the item's creator.... it doesn't all go in valve's pocket as you imply.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[flimflammer]

I'm sure they're crying about losing your respect all the way to the bank.

The only thing that has made me lose respect for them is the drama over the DOTA trademark.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[Baloroth]

The only thing that has made me lose respect for them is the drama over the DOTA trademark.

Out of curiosity, why? They have the original creator of DotA and the current maintainer of DotA on payroll, and are creating the sequel to it, whereas Blizzard did... nothing, at all, with DotA before Valve picked it up.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[icebraining]

http://i.imgur.com/WuaVN.jpg

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[RyoShin]

it's easy money for Valve because they don't even do most of the work.

But even more important than that, any item that is approved and included automatically grants the original creator a percentage of store sales (I want to say 25%, but am not sure). While it certainly makes Valve's job easier, it also is financially rewarding to those who submit items (as well as the fame they might have garnered anyway) and keeps a more invested community.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[artor3]

HL3 will come out regardless of how many hats people buy. But first, they need some new big thing to bundle it with.

The Half-life series has made Valve, because each step of the way, they've bundled the game with something else that they hoped to make money on. In the original HL, they did it unintentionally with the extremely moddable engine. In HL2, it was bundled with Steam, which has become their bread-and-butter. How many people would have gotten started on Steam if HL2 didn't require it?

Ep1 may be an exception, though it did introduce an AI companion that didn't make players want to pull their hair out, but Ep2 helped push the sales of TF2 (which has made bank) and Portal. Portal, as a puzzle platformer, would have likely flown under the radar had it been released alone. By bundling it, it became a surprise hit, and led to a sequel that sold millions of copies at ~$50 a piece.

If they're smart, they're coming up with the next big thing, and will bundle it with HL3 to drive adoption. My guess, expect HL3 to come out at the same time as the rumored Steam Box.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[Kreigaffe]

50% of the income from something they invested no money in creating.

Still free money.

Parent didn't imply all the money went to Valve, merely that it's easy money for them. It is. They get money for doing nothing -- and also, the item creator gets just as much money, except for doing something.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[Anonymous Coward]

Erm. Blizzard did nothing at all with Dota? They've done a number of things, including hosting tournaments and the like. Dota was finely ingrained in WC3 culture. There's also the problem with the fact that the people they hired to do this are not the only people who were associated with the original Dota.

I'm not sure Icefrog even has the complete rights to it all. I'm pretty sure when you make maps with Blizzard's map editor, you sign certain ownership rights away. Since Dota has been used so extensively outside the control of Icefrog and the previous maintainers/contributers, I'm not sure Valve or Icefrog can even get a trademark for Dota.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[flimflammer]

This sums up pretty well my thoughts on the matter.

Re:Where is EP3 / HL3

[VGPowerlord]

Parent didn't imply all the money went to Valve, merely that it's easy money for them. It is. They get money for doing nothing -- and also, the item creator gets just as much money, except for doing something.

(I'm the parent in question)

I know, I was being stupid and assuming people had read the article, which mentions that the money is split with the item creators.

For that matter, maps have map stamps in the store; the profits from map stamps are split with the map makers... although I'd hope the map makers also got a percentage of other profits, as map stamps aren't likely things a lot of people buy.

It absolutely works...

[Panaflex]

"Look Dad - this one's free!" appeals to every Dad who just spent hundreds of dollars on stuff they left on the lawn or on the floor of the bathroom.

Zynga's lawyers are preparing the suit.....

[BulletMagnet]

Since Valve *is* stealing their business model....

!sausage

[Smekarn]

I've got to hand it to TF2. I've been playing it for a very long time and I've never had any problems not buying anything. They really are doing a great job with the trade-off system. If we were to start talking unfair advantages, it would be in the scale where your mouse (or hell, even your chair!) would need to be taken into account.

With all that moolah, it wouldn't kill them to roll out some new official maps and gamemodes though... and maybe Meet the Pyro?

...AN' WHAR DID ME CROTCHY-SMILEY GO!?

But it must be seen in context.

[Qwertie]

Switching to "freemium" now may have increased revenue now. That doesn't necessarily mean it would have been a good idea to release as freemium in the first place. Valve had 4 years to convince people to pay up-front for TF2, and they succeeded quite well! But after four years, you've just about exhausted the supply of people that are willing to pay up-front. Switching to freemium not only brings in new customers, it also convinces some of the original buyers to pay again for in-game items. Now that's smart.

IMO they struck the right balance, too: TF2 is still fun without paying anything (or in my case, any more than I paid for the Orange Box.) If you had to "pay to win", people might be pretty pissed off.

Does this mean...

[Higgins_Boson]

Does this mean piracy really ISN'T that damaging? They could simply make up their "lost profits" (note the quotation marks) by offering virtual perks for real-world cash?

Honest question and sorry if it is redundant, but I don't have the 45 minutes necessary to read everything here as some of these posts read like a kid writing a novel in crayon.

oddle enough

[Anonymous Coward]

the solution was hats.

and this:
http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20120305

Accounting Hijinks?

[Charliemopps]

So, is that 12x the revenue at release? Or 12x the revenue compared to when they went free2play which was after the game had been out for years and basically wasn't even for sale anymore? Also... Revenue? What a useless number. How much have PROFITS increased? You now have hundreds of thousands of people playing your game for free... not buying anything at all. Are the few that are paying, actually making up for all that?

The clear endgame for this situation is to get people to pay as much money as possible for something that takes the least amount of work. So basically, new weapons that use the same skin as old weapons but make winning much easier. To shut up people who don't want to pay, you make the weapon unlock-able, but make unlocking it significantly more difficult than paying $19.95.

I understand that these companies are out there to make a profit, but if you drive customers away by building a name for yourself based on poor investment in new content, and nickle and diming your customers (See EA and SOE as good examples) Eventually, no matter how great of a game you produce, people are going to ignore it because they know what's coming next. 2 months after release "here's the other half of the game and it'll cost you $300 to get it all, but we won't tell you that, we'll just obfuscate the price of everything to the point that you have no idea what you're paying anymore, maybe we'll make you buy 1 kind of in-game credit and then trade it for different kinds of in-game credits, all with different values and exchange rates" (See StarTrek online, it does this in spades)

The gaming industry has killed itself off multiple times due to profit over-reach. I think we're headed down the same road again.

Re:Accounting Hijinks?

[darkwing_bmf]

Are you kidding? TF2 has been one of the most popular multiplayer games since the Orange box came out. I'm glad they're still devoting resources to it. I also realize that they've got to keep making money in order to do that. Ergo I'm okay with people spending their money (and Valve making money) on fancy hats in TF2.

Re:Accounting Hijinks?

[brainzach]

Revenue is an accurate indicator of success in the video game business.

Most of the costs of a video game is during development which is a fixed costs. Once a company makes enough money to cover its fixed costs, most of the additional revenue goes into profits. It doesn't costs that much more to distribute additional copies of a game especially if you are doing it online.

Re:Accounting Hijinks?

[VGPowerlord]

So, is that 12x the revenue at release? Or 12x the revenue compared to when they went free2play which was after the game had been out for years and basically wasn't even for sale anymore?

Actually, it was still in stores, both standalone and as part of The Orange Box. At least they were in Best Buy a year ago (I don't buy that many boxed games any more...).

Embarrassment of riches

[jweller13]

I have about 8 F2P MMO games on my computer now. Instead of having to choose which subscription to pay for now I can play them all!!

Revenue is not profit

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not saying this isn't a win for valve all around, but you gotta consider their cost to run servers probably skyrocketed as more and more twelve year olds hopped on and started playing. I wonder what their actual bottom line is.

Upgrade weapons are not necessarily better

[VGPowerlord]

One of the major themes in alternate weapon in TF2 that they aren't necessarily better than the weapons they replace.

There are two weapons in the entire game that have clear upgrades. Those are the Medic's Bonesaw and the Soldier's Shovel.

I'll use the Soldier's Rocket Launchers as an example of weapons that are sidegrades. The rocket launchers are:

Rocket Launcher - 4 Rockets per clip. 20 rockets total. Rockets shoot slowly. Rockets have a good amount of splash area.

Direct Hit - 4 Rockets per clip. 20 rockets total. Rockets shoot quickly. Rockets do 20% higher damage. Rockets mini-crit airborne enemies. Rockets have 70% smaller splash area.

Black Box - 3 Rockets per clip. 20 rockets total, rockets shoot slowly. Rrockets have a good amount of splash area. Player gains 15 health per person hit.

The Liberty Launcher - 3 Rockets per clip. 20 rockets total. Rockets shoot quickly. Rockets have a good amount of splash area.

The Original - Identical to Rocket Launcher, but fires from the center instead of from the right.

Cow Mangler 5000 - 5 Rockets per clip. Unlimited ammo. Slower reload time. Rockets shoot slowly. Rockets have a good amount of splash area. Can not do critical hits. When your clip is full, right-click to shoot a charge shot (takes 3 seconds to fire, during which you move at 1/4 speed) which does mini-crits and sets enemies in its splash range on fire... but uses the entire clip of 5 rockets. All shots do 80% less damage versus buildings, but a charged shot disables buildings for 4 seconds.

Re:Upgrade weapons are not necessarily better

[Kdansky]

Let me add to this my extensive 400 hours of gameplay experience: The basic rocket launcher is the best weapon. Direct Hit: -70% splash means your splash is nearly irrelevant. This weapon is good against heavies and snipers, and bad against everyone else. Black Box: 15 life only makes a difference once in ten fights. Only having three shots matters every few seconds. Liberty Launcher: Speed difference is neat, but unnecessary most of the time. Three rockets instead of four is significant. Original: You can't shoot around left corners. You still can't shoot around right corners. The smoke obscures your own view. You can't rocket jump as far (though it's easier for a beginner). It's just plain worse. Cow Mangler: I don't have this one. This holds true for 99% of all weapons: The basic gear is actually the most competitive in nearly all cases. And when it is not, you need to spend a hundred hours to actually learn the difference anyway, at which point you have the things you need.

Re:Upgrade weapons are not necessarily better

[VGPowerlord]

I agree. Although I have found certain other situations that the Direct Hit is good for: Killing sentries. The DH's extra damage, combined with the fact that sentries don't move...

The Cow Mangler's reduced damage against sentries is a major side effect, as is the slower reload time. Also, the charge shot is basically useless as you do as much damage as it does in two standard rockets... although it is neat seeing enemies catch on fire. The disable buildings mechanic is only useful if you're working with teammates to take out a sentry or are carrying the regular shotgun as well, due to the reduced damage versus buildings. Oh, and if you didn't kill the Engineer, he can repair it faster than you can damage it.

(Side note: The Righteous Bison also shares the 80% less damage against buildings drawback.)

Re:Upgrade weapons are not necessarily better

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Original - Identical to Rocket Launcher, but fires from the center instead of from the right."

You forgot the best part, although it is only a cosmetic feature: The Original looks like and sounds like the rocket launcher from Quake :-)

All fine and dandy, except that it's incorrect

[F69631]

fremium model prey's on the inability of many people to not only add the micro transactions together

#idonthavefactstobackthisup, but when fremium games generate more profit, it's not because the same people end up paying more. It's because more people end up paying a bit. So, instead of me having to make large-ish (let's say 50 euros) investment on a game and hope that it's good, I can get a game for free or for a nominal fee (a couple of euros), play a while and if I like the game, occasionally buy something nice.

There are many advantages here: I get to personalize my games (if I visit a friend with same games that I have and try some of them out, I'll have a whole another experience!), I don't ever waste money on stuff I end up not liking, the publisher gets constant feedback on what kind of content the gamers are into and can provide new stuff based on that and most importantly... the very low cost of initial investment is wonderful. I have a large-ish group of friends and friend-of-friends that like to play together and not nearly everyone in the group is in a relatively well-paying job like the one I have. Yet, because of the this model, we can get into a new game every other week or so.

So... yeah. I really love the microtransaction model though I'm pretty confident that I can perform simple addition.

Re:All fine and dandy, except that it's incorrect

[AngryDeuce]

So... yeah. I really love the microtransaction model though I'm pretty confident that I can perform simple addition.

Same here. My first real exposure to it was with Lord of the Rings: Online went F2P, and after playing P2P MMO's for many years, it was nice not to have to deal with the monthly fees and all that shit. Plus, unlike many F2P games, you can grind out the currency (Turbine Points), rather than having to purchase them. It's not as fast or convenient as plugging in a credit card and buying them, but it's really not that bad.

I guess the whole pay to win thing never bothered me, particularly with MMO's. I'm not competitive by nature, and in any MMO, it's damn hard to compete with the no-lifers that inevitably play 24/7 whether it's F2P or P2P, so that never mattered to me anyway. I don't play the game to impress people, I play to have fun, and if some guy has fun buying his way to the top, c'est la vie.

Granted, LotR:O didn't have PvP in the traditional sense, so I suppose constantly getting ganked by someone that paid to win would irritate me...but my non-competitive nature doesn't really lend itself to holding a grudge or getting very angry about stuff like that.

Re:All fine and dandy, except that it's incorrect

[Anguirel]

#idonthavefactstobackthisup, but when fremium games generate more profit, it's not because the same people end up paying more.

Short reply: this is incorrect. From what I recall of the stats, most F2P games make all of their money on ~2% of the user base. Think of that Apple guy that buys everything that has an Apple logo on it. They're the type those games target for profits. TF2 in particular can capitalize on "whales" since they can buy lots of items and then give them to friends (or trade them for rare items from other people), rather then being entirely restricted to personal purchases.

I had a friend that went way into these sorts of transactions (even on non-F2P games, like WoW server/faction/race tranfers) -- when I pointed out that she was paying a lot of money for what I saw as pretty little return value, she just said that she didn't care. She had disposable income, and this was what she did. It certainly wasn't any worse than paying $50 a night going out to clubs, and she was having fun.

Re:All fine and dandy, except that it's incorrect

[Miaowara_Tomokato]

If you're going to go that route on calculations, you have to take into account the size of the user base. It's a very real possibility that 2% of a F2P game's user base comprises more individuals than 100% of that game's user base if it was a $2P game.

Re:All fine and dandy, except that it's incorrect

[Anguirel]

That is definitely a part of it - and all of those people playing are free advertising as they tell all their friends to come join them for free. With the multiplayer games, that user base is also necessary for a sustainable game play (you need people filling matches out or there's no game to play anyway).

Free To Play - Freemium

[msheekhah]

I would not call this implementation "Free To Win", as they offer no paid items that can't be obtained by putting in the time and effort. Thus it's a decent Free to Play implementation. If the freemium options aren't available erstwise, then I would definitely call it Free To win.

Re:Free To Play - Freemium

[Anguirel]

I think you're going for "Pay to Win". TF2 is definitely not that. It's not even "Pay or Time to Win", which is the model you describe. It's "Pay or Time for Options", which is my preferred F2P system, along with "Pay for Cosmetic Alterations". A new player is purely limited by the skill curve. The basic tools available are good enough that even veteran players continue to use them, even when they unlock additional weapons.

Re:Free To Play - Freemium

[Requiem18th]

Ineed, I started playing Tribes: Ascend this Tuesday and something that is really bothering me is the XP system where you can buy upgrades and weapons for either dollars or "XP" at my current level I make about 150 XP per game, or 1000 XP if the teams are stacked and I manage to capture the flag. Most upgrades are in the tens of thousands with entire classes locked by hundreads of thousands XP. At this rate I'm never going to be on a level play with people of my skill level because I'm not only playing against skill but time/money.

This means that someone who pays already has better equipment than I've gotten in these past two days and that someone who has been playing a lot is twice as far ahead of me than say, someone who plays more TF2 than me, against whom I still have a teoretical and often quite practical chance to win.

Not surprising

[Noah69]

I only started playing TF2 once it became f2p, to see what it was all about. The fact that you only had to spend like 5 bucks in the store to upgrade your account to premium status was tempting and no hard decision once I discovered after a few sessions that the game was really fun. I got to try out the game for free and saw it more as a way to support the developers of a game that I enjoy rather than spending money on useless virtual items that I couldn't care less about. Good job Valve.

Everquest (classic) is about to go Free to Play.

[Kaenneth]

Since the subject came up, I'm going to mention that EverQuest is going to launch their Free-to-Play program in about a week. (the original, EQ2 has been F2P for a while now) info is at http://www.everquest.com/free/ (also a new fresh server starting.)

I don't work for Sony, I just like (and play) EQ. In fact I work for a competitor.

I'm not a fan of the F2P model, I plan to keep my regular sub; but an MMO needs fresh blood to stay healthy, and I'm hoping this will boost the userbase.

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[Anonymous Coward]

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I already paid for this game

[Anonymous Coward]

I already paid for this game, why should I have to pay again?

I don't mind them making it f2p after a long time as it means there are more players to play with, though having to pay again or be subjected to the "store" while playing is bullshit

You don't have a game if you're playing alone.

[Behrooz]

I am mildly annoyed that I paid money for this when it was standalone and all I got was a stupid hat.

Or you could have bought any of the dozens of 'multiplayer' shooter games that have come out since the release of TF2 where there are no servers still up, no players, and no game to enjoy.

TF2 going F2P added a ridiculous amount of content and prolonged the playable life of the game by years. You don't have a game if nobody else is playing.

Re:You don't have a game if you're playing alone.

[Suddenly_Dead]

That's why I'm only "mildly" annoyed; that and how these days I only tend to play the game when a friend pulls me into it anyways. Mild like the "spicy" food the local Asian restaurants serve white people.

Stability and Security

[Anonymous Coward]

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2476390
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1774666

It's a shame that with that much increase and profit, Valve can't fix fundemental flaws they introduced.

Re:Stability and Security

[Ash-Fox]

It's a shame that with that much increase and profit, Valve can't fix fundemental flaws they introduced.

Why don't I exprience these crash issues on Team Fortress 2?

F2P

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking about free to play business model and not mentioning League of Legends is just a failure.

Just so we're clear, D&DO and LOTRO are not F2

[Rogerborg]

(also City of Heroes and doubtless most other MMOs) are not Free to Play, they're Free to Try.

Drawing a distinction between a time limited, level capped or limited race/class trial is splitting hairs. If you don't care about levelling, you can play a limited time trial game (e.g. EVE) indefinitely just by starting a new account every month or so. The 'grind' back to the cap is essentially trivial.

But in either case, the time/level/class capped people can't compete with the premium players. That's not a bad thing, they bring value by providing an underclass to which the paying players can feel superior, but let's not pretend that a limited trial is the same as making the whole game free.

Re:Just so we're clear, D&DO and LOTRO are not

[Slider451]

You are misinformed. You can play LOTRO to level cap entirely free. Paying will lessen the grind, but it's not a requirement. It's up to you how valuable your time is. Note that MMO expansions cost money for everyone, including subscribers.