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TSA 'Warning' Media About Reporting On Body Scanner Failures?

OverTheGeicoE writes "When anti-TSA activist Jonathan Corbett exposed a severe weakness in TSA's body scanners, one would expect the story to attract a lot of media attention. Apparently TSA is attempting to stop reporters from covering the story. According to Corbett, at least one reporter has been 'strongly cautioned' by TSA spokeswoman Sari Koshetz not to cover the story. If TSA is worried that this is new information they need to suppress to keep it away from terrorists, that horse may have left the barn years ago. Corbett's demonstration may just be confirmation of a 2010 paper in the Journal of Transportation Security that concluded that 'an object such as a wire or a boxcutter blade, taped to the side of the body, or even a small gun in the same location, will be invisible' to X-ray scanners."

465 comments

  1. Warned about what? by Kenja · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What where the consequences they where threatened with?

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    1. Re:Warned about what? by Marillion · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They're probably appealing to a sense of patriotic responsibility to keep it hidden. The old "Loose Lips Sink Ships" mantra. I call BS.

      --
      This is a boring sig
    2. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I imagine it was more the TSA spreading disinformation, telling the media outlets that there was nothing to worry about.

    3. Re:Warned about what? by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Guantanimo? Enemy combatants? Declared enemies of the state by the Pres., shot in the head and buried in an unmarked grave?

      Unlikely, yes. But now "legal" under Bush/Obama.

      --
      This space available.
    4. Re:Warned about what? by forkfail · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When a three letter agency cautions you with unspecified malice, even if they can't (yet) drag you out of your house at night, you know they can make your life difficult...

      --
      Check your premises.
    5. Re:Warned about what? by Kenja · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sorry, but a private citizen with no legal enforcement power (which TSA is and lacks) can not declare you an enemy of the state and have you sent to Guantanamo.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    6. Re:Warned about what? by Kenja · · Score: 2, Funny

      But the TSA is no more a "three letter agency" then TWA is.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    7. Re:Warned about what? by forkfail · · Score: 5, Informative

      They can send you to jail for not cooperating (or even citing the constitution at them), prevent you from traveling freely and deny you the right to exit the country. They can put you on watch lists that make the "more traditional" TLA's pay attention to you. And their influence is spreading.

      So, yes, they are.

      --
      Check your premises.
    8. Re:Warned about what? by mr100percent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The "having you killed" suggestion is overblown, but I'm sure the TSA could realistically add you to No-Fly lists, just because.

    9. Re:Warned about what? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't want to lose you access, would you?

    10. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Totally by coincidence your tax returns get audited. If you have kids, child protection services shows up at your door with complaints about child abuse. Every time you do a rolling stop a cop is right there to give you a ticket. As a journalist, every time you try to attend a press conference there seems to be no more space left, sorry. Your usual contacts at the police force run out of scoops to feed you. If you try to cover a protest you're one of the first to be arrested. The list goes on... None of which has any relation to the fact that you covered an "unpopular" story, of course.

    11. Re:Warned about what? by ddtracy · · Score: 2

      Retroactive retracting of "freedom" of press...

    12. Re:Warned about what? by ddtracy · · Score: 1

      But they sure can make it hell to try to fly...

    13. Re:Warned about what? by SpockLogic · · Score: 1

      What where the consequences they where threatened with?

      He's got 'em on the list — he's got 'em on the list;
      And they'll none of 'em be missed — they'll none of 'em be missed.

    14. Re:Warned about what? by msauve · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The more citizens who fight the system, the harder it is for them to do any of that. What happens if/when there are 10,000,000 names on the Do Not Fly list?

      Whatever happened to the principles the US was founded on? "Live Free or Die," "Don't Tread On Me," "Liberty or Death?" We've become a country of Bread and Circuses consuming, Entitlement gratified proles.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    15. Re:Warned about what? by Kenja · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, they cant. But they could recommend to Homeland Security that you be added, and odds are they would just rubber stamp it.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    16. Re:Warned about what? by artor3 · · Score: 5, Funny

      But I thought that if we see something, we're supposed to say something?

    17. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And when that happens, you are no longer in a 'free Democracy', if the USA was ever one to begin with.

      TSA is slowly becoming what the KGB was in post WWII Russia. It starts with verbal intimidation and warnings, and leads to citizens whisked away in the night to unknown locations. It ends under revolution or the country collapsing.

      Could never happen here, right? Just keep quiet and don't speak your $.02 on this matter. See how easy complacency is?

    18. Re:Warned about what? by jonamous++ · · Score: 5, Funny

      Except the KGB actually had some badasses in it. Have you seen TSA agents? I could make a run for it and still get on the plane, stow my carry-on and calmly wait for takeoff before they managed to make it to the gate.

    19. Re:Warned about what? by Awol411 · · Score: 1
    20. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So much crap over nothing. They'll just start snapping a sideways picture as well. In most places it's still a crap shoot if you're going through backscatter or metal detectors anyways.

    21. Re:Warned about what? by pkinetics · · Score: 3, Insightful

      10k names is a small number to search against. Takes seconds on a properly implemented and maintained db and app.

      My point is that the TSA doesn't give a rats arse how many people on the list there are. They would be just as happy if there were 100k, even if it meant there 95% false positives. It would just mean more justification for their existence.

      Never assume a bureaucratic organization will always exist for the sake of the people. It eventually evolves to the point where its existence is its existence.

      Plants need electrolytes because plants need electrolytes.

    22. Re:Warned about what? by msauve · · Score: 4, Informative

      "10k names is a small number to search against."

      Innumeracy runs rampant. You're off by a factor of 1000. 10,000,000 (that's 10 million, since you apparently can't parse digits) is a very significant fraction of the (frequently) flying public.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    23. Re:Warned about what? by sjames · · Score: 2

      So you're saying they have no authority they could possibly abuse? No chance you could get "randomly selected" for life or find your way to the no-fly list?

    24. Re:Warned about what? by JWSmythe · · Score: 5, Informative

      The flaw was exposed in February 2011 by an undercover TSA agent. He tested a known, unpatched, exploit.

      Here's more links to stories.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    25. Re:Warned about what? by slippyblade · · Score: 1

      10k names is a small number to search against.

      Ummm... The GP said 10M names. Check your commas.

    26. Re:Warned about what? by ArieKremen · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...but there is nothing to see, ergo you're not supposed to say anything! Being consequent helps.

      --
      -- Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui
    27. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They'll find themselves on a no-fly list and life as a reporter or journalist of any sort (necessitating travel) will become pretty fucking horrendous.

    28. Re:Warned about what? by mitgib · · Score: 1, Informative

      And when that happens, you are no longer in a 'free Democracy', if the USA was ever one to begin with.

      Why would you ever think it was? The United States of America has always been a Republic.

      --
      Being a spelling & grammar Nazi is a sign you do not poses the intelligence to contribute to the conversation
    29. Re:Warned about what? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      The more citizens who fight the system, the harder it is for them to do any of that. What happens if/when there are 10,000,000 names on the Do Not Fly list?

      They get a bigger server farm?

    30. Re:Warned about what? by Cosgrach · · Score: 2

      I can't. So I broke it up a bit:

      Farcebook won't allow the link to the original wordpress blog article.

      Try this:

      Type: http:

      Then copy the following text and paste it behind. //tsaoutofourpants(dot)wordpress(dot)com/2012/03/06/1b-of-nude-body-scanners-made-worthless-by-blog-how-anyone-can-get-anything-past-the-tsas-nude-body-scanners/

      --
      Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
    31. Re:Warned about what? by hey! · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While I applaud your sentiment, I wouldn't necessarily endorse the use of all the incidents you cite to support those sentiments. For example:

      Just before he was to be scanned, Tobey protested his treatment by removing his pants and shirt (thankfully, leaving his boxers on), and revealing a writing on his chest, “Amendment 4: The right of the people to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.”

      For thus displaying a sentence appearing in our country’s Constitution, Tobey was deemed to be a “security risk.

      Personally I suspect it wasn't his attempt to "educate the TSA" (as the columnist put it) that branded him as a security risk. I think it more likely that his behavior was simply regarded as bizarre. Personally, I'd suspect PCP use if I saw somebody do this, although I wouldn't dispute that in light of further developments it was probably a sober, if unconventional act of political protest.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    32. Re:Warned about what? by msauve · · Score: 2

      "They get a bigger server farm?"

      Whoosh.

      It's not looking them up, it's having the majority of the traveling population blocked/delayed at the checkpoint, the resulting logistics, and the political fallout.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    33. Re:Warned about what? by Stormthirst · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Never the less, a properly maintained DB and app will still render the numbers largely irrelevant.

    34. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could be European, where commas and periods are flipped in numbers. So they could just be confused as all getout. 10,000,000, or 10,000.000 (why add 3rd 0, I dunno), or 10.000,000, etc.

    35. Re:Warned about what? by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's inhumane. Nobody deserves light opera.

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    36. Re:Warned about what? by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      Personally, I'd suspect PCP use if I saw somebody do this...

      IOW, "What he's doing doesn't make sense to me; therefore, he must be on drugs." Clever.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    37. Re:Warned about what? by msauve · · Score: 1

      "Never the less, a properly maintained DB and app will still render the numbers largely irrelevant."

      DB=Delayed Boarding, and you're wrong.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    38. Re:Warned about what? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And here I was, thinking it was a two party dictatorship...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    39. Re:Warned about what? by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What where the consequences they where threatened with?

      Reporters might find it hard to advance in their profession when they're on the no-fly list.

    40. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The more citizens who fight the system, the harder it is for them to do any of that. What happens if/when there are 10,000,000 names on the Do Not Fly list?

      It takes longer for search queries to go through (especially given their general ineptitude, it'll probably be a naively-implemented MySQL database on an old P4), thus delaying everyone else. That's all.

      Oh, and they get more funding the following year because of all the good they're doing ("more names" == "apparently doing their job"). Any complaints get filed under "Unpatriotic / Wants Terrorist Attacks On Planes In The Exact Manners In Which We Reacted To A Decade Ago". Which increases the size of the No-Fly List, which gives them more money...

    41. Re:Warned about what? by HermMunster · · Score: 1

      Easy solution. Just make them turn sideways.

      Anyway I am appalled at the TSA for everything they've done, not just them trying to block the news coverage of this story.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    42. Re:Warned about what? by msauve · · Score: 2, Funny

      /. is a US site, and 10.000.000 is a version of software, not a number.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    43. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "When a three letter agency cautions you with unspecified malice, even if they can't (yet) drag you out of your house at night, you know they can make your life difficult..."

      Imagine what they'd do if we started discussing the fact that Rapiscan (the manufacturer of the scanners) is also heavily invested in the medical industry by way of their parent company (OSI). Gods forbid people actually start discussing the fact that irradiating everyone will, in the long run, offer a return on investment what with the increase in cancers and all. I don't even want to think about what would happen if someone suggested that was the intention all along--inducing cancers to profit from the "treatment" of said cancers.

      CAPTCHA: shiftier

    44. Re:Warned about what? by sdnoob · · Score: 1

      a lifetime upgrade to the ultra platinum deluxe screening package, of course.

      no. still no free happy ending included.

    45. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had the same problem.

    46. Re:Warned about what? by Alien+Being · · Score: 0

      Too bad it didn't say "fuck off and die, you fascist pigs."

    47. Re:Warned about what? by machine321 · · Score: 1

      Worked for me.

    48. Re:Warned about what? by jamstar7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Um, TSA is a branch of Homeland Security. They don't need arrest powers, they just pass the request up the line and whoever is disappeared.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    49. Re:Warned about what? by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Except that plane will never take off until you're removed by the air marshals.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    50. Re:Warned about what? by hey! · · Score: 1

      IOW, "What he's doing doesn't make sense to me; therefore, he must be on drugs." Clever.

      Not really. What he did would be pretty consistent with angel dust. If a bunch of people were acting very silly and laughing at things that aren't really funny, I'd suspect pot. It doesn't mean that they couldn't just be silly people, but it'd be *reasonable* to suspect marijuana.

      Anyhow, I didn't say he was on drugs, I said if I were in this situation I'd suspect drugs, which would be reasonable basis to detain him for long enough to determine that he was just being an eccentric PITA, which is not a crime.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    51. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am sure SHE will be patted down every time SHE flys, for years !!

    52. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wrong? I think it's irrelevant.

      The problem for them wouldn't be keep 10,000,000 people off of planes, it would be telling those 10,000,000 people that they can't fly. And even if you do manage that, TSA would have serious issues getting revenue if the air carriers can't put people in the seats.

    53. Re:Warned about what? by Fjandr · · Score: 3, Funny

      Eh, lots of countries prove you can call yourself a republic and be a dictatorship at the same time.

      Anyway, since we have a two-party dictatorship we're obviously 50% more free than a single-party dictatorship like North Korea.

    54. Re:Warned about what? by shiftless · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By the time you get to the point where they'd put 10M names on the No Fly list, there will be MUCH more worse punishments ready and lined up for a good portion of those 10M. The No Fly list will then only be for low level people, like nobodies who criticize the government, not Somebodies who need to be Locked Away out of Sight and Punished.

    55. Re:Warned about what? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      OR - Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from insanity.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    56. Re:Warned about what? by Johann+Lau · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course it's BS. Think about it. Before this stuff, you couldn't get that easily on board with a gun or box cutters. Now it's become *easier* than before. Streamlined access for terrorists and undercover government peeps, PITA for the rest. That's what taking a long hard look at this would reveal, it would make a whole lot of bluffs quite obvious. It threatens a house of cards. So.... who are these clowns to give advice to anyone? They should shut the fuck up, say "thank you" and "sorry", work until they paid the money they squandered back, and then go to jail for life. That would be the *beginning* of something remotely sensible.

    57. Re:Warned about what? by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      Which means it's time to dismantle them.

      Do you think keeping your feet still will make this go away? How, exactly, do Nazis react to appeasement? You can watch it, you can read it in the newspaper. They build and fortify.

    58. Re:Warned about what? by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 3, Informative

      How is an adult's decision to consume ANY substance a reasonable basis for detention?

      Just because prohibition is law does NOT make it reasonable.

    59. Re:Warned about what? by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      Well at the time that was used there really were some spies around and ships to sink.

      Now-a-days it's used for stuff it really shouldn't be.

      A ship has to take a route from A to B to get where it is going. Secrecy is pretty much one of the only defences from a sub(at least at that time).

      TSA can do a lot more than security theater and evaluate what practices really work and which don't. However they will never do this if people are content with the theater. People remain content by thinking there are no problems. Thus reporting the problem makes people un-content and thus in time prevents the "ship" from sinking.

    60. Re:Warned about what? by gmanterry · · Score: 0

      The more citizens who fight the system, the harder it is for them to do any of that. What happens if/when there are 10,000,000 names on the Do Not Fly list?

      Whatever happened to the principles the US was founded on? "Live Free or Die," "Don't Tread On Me," "Liberty or Death?" We've become a country of Bread and Circuses consuming, Entitlement gratified proles.

      You really want to know? The Constitution was trashed when the libs like Ruth Bader Ginsburg decided it was a "Living Document" and it had grown too old to be relevant anymore. So they only support the parts that support their utopian ideas of one world government and a cradle to grave nanny in DC. The rest is of the Constitution is irrelevant.

      --
      Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
    61. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You have a weird definition of "they can't".

    62. Re:Warned about what? by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      Problem: There are a lot of name collisions. There are a lot of name + birthday collisions. Etc.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    63. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They'd have to make sure they have a new version of Excel.

    64. Re:Warned about what? by LBt1st · · Score: 2

      Those principles were bought by corporations while the country watched American Idle.

    65. Re:Warned about what? by BlueStrat · · Score: 2

      Now-a-days it's used for stuff it really shouldn't be.

      That's because loose lips sink dictatorships as well as the sea-going kind.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    66. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Innumeracy runs rampant. You're off by a factor of 1000. 10,000,000 (that's 10 million, since you apparently can't parse digits) is a very significant fraction of the (frequently) flying public.

      On the other hand he was just as wrong with the search time. On a properly implemented db it takes a few ms to search against a 10k list.
      10 million rows is still not a large number. Today even embedded computers have enough memory to put the entire index in cache.

      It has been a while since computers and databases grew powerful enough to manage information of the entire population of a nation.

    67. Re:Warned about what? by Zeroedout · · Score: 1

      Yikes, they even admit it they are invested in both industries.
      I guess all we have to do is prove they know it causes cancer and once the first victims come around they'll have a good lawsuit. Or I suppose an American regulator can put a stop to this (stop laughing). Isn't there some department in the USA that is supposed to investigate this kind of thing?

    68. Re:Warned about what? by advocate_one · · Score: 2

      actually it's really only one party... they're just two faces of the same coin...

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    69. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a technical problem, it becomes a political one. If a significant proportion of people are inconvenienced, it'll find its way to the top of politician's priority list.

      As an example, look at the proposed vetting system that the UK looked to introduce last year as a result of the Soham murders. As soon as people realised they'd need to be vetted to walk their friend's children to school, the government kicked it into the long grass (and the following government repealed it).

    70. Re:Warned about what? by houghi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What happens if/when there are 10,000,000 names on the Do Not Fly list?

      Then they will just need more people to handle those that try to fly. Or they will ask for other measures that are just as ridiculous as they are now, like random searches anywhere, because you know, bridges and tunnels can be targets too.
        This is not about the do-not-fly list. This is about them wanting complete control over everything and everybody and they will not stop before they have it. The question is when you, The American Public, will stop them.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    71. Re:Warned about what? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Nobody ever indicated that the lookup times would be the issue. What thread are you reading?

    72. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PCP? Nah, just psychosis. Mass security culture psychosis, that is. The only bizarre thing going on is all the searches.

    73. Re:Warned about what? by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the lookup times will be fine, but the hassle, public outcry, loss of revenue, etc wno't be.

      I know this is slashdot but not every problem is technological in nature. (And "nevertheless" is one word)

    74. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's simple remedy to that confusion: never fucking ever use anything except space as a thousand separator. If you see someone to use a comma or dot in that place, pluck his eyes out or something.

      Practicality first, "rules" second.

    75. Re:Warned about what? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      I think this is just a warning that the person they're dealing with is someone with an agenda.

      The consequence is that they have to deal with an unbalanced idiot with an agenda. TSA sent the warning because if they can't dissuade the journalist from dealing with this guy then they have to deal indirectly with an unbalanced idiot with an agenda as well.

    76. Re:Warned about what? by rich_hudds · · Score: 1

      I see this argument on Slashdot every now and then, are you taught something odd in American schools?

      What makes you think that Republics and Democracies are mutually exclusive?

      They're completely unrelated, you might as well argue that America can't be a democracy because it's always been a country.

    77. Re:Warned about what? by HyperQuantum · · Score: 2

      That's the difference between "in theory" and "in practice".

      --
      I am not really here right now.
    78. Re:Warned about what? by flyneye · · Score: 1

      I picture the TSA as paranoid maniac naked king warning them to quit broadcasting " the king wears no clothes" and the press as an echo unit with "regenerate" set on 10. Irresistible force meets immovable object, film at 11.
      Only one of the rings we offer for entertainment in this circus.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    79. Re:Warned about what? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      I'll be honest. I looked at the exploit and I wondered to myself "How is this not easily corrected?" The scanner picks up objects because of the contrast provided by the human body. The exploit is to have something hanging off the side of your body since you stand facing the scanning device. Since there is no body behind the object it blends into the black background.

      Is it just me or does the solution seem as simple as running two scans per person? One from the front and one from the side?

      While I hate the TSA as much as anyone, with what appears to be a trivial solution I'm wondering if the requested gag has more to do with them wanting to keep quiet about it until they've started double scanning or if it is to save face and embarrassment, or both.

      Aww. Who am I kidding, they're just trying to save face.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    80. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's irrelevant is how fast the DB can be searched...the point he's making is that if 10 million people no longer are allowed to fly, the airlines are going to feel that effect and start to push back on the TSA.

    81. Re:Warned about what? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      That would probably be the quickest way to get the system corrected and the TSA dismantled. Unfortunately the our already poor reporting would get much worse but this time the feds would be screwing with some people who have power. Could you imagine all the reporters doing investigative reports on the TSA and their piss poor job.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    82. Re:Warned about what? by blueg3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's right. American citizens are being disappeared by the government on a daily basis. Apparently either their friends and family never notice or Big Media is in on it and so you never see a story about it...

    83. Re:Warned about what? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      To get around that I suggest just taping a blade to the bottom of each foot. Of course eventually the TSA will figure out a better scanning solution (after spending 100s of millions of dollars) so then everyone will now have to do the Hokey-Pokey when entering the screening machine. Either that or the increase the output on the scanners to induce enough of a current through inductive heating to burn the person with metal taped to their body, cancer be damned.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    84. Re:Warned about what? by Alranor · · Score: 2

      In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice.

      In practice, however, there usually is

    85. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, I thought it was the U.S. that used periods instead of commas to group large numbers. ...If it's not the U.S., who?? Whoever they are, they are the real enemy here!!

    86. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever happened to the principles the US was founded on? "Live Free or Die," "Don't Tread On Me," "Liberty or Death?"

      Shhh....you're in the way of American Idol.

      The sad fact is, most Americans really believe that none of this stuff is happening and that anyone who makes statements like that are wearing tin foil hats. Most of America is still in complete denial about the state of this country. And the sad fact is, even people like you, posting as such, probably don't realize just how bad things really are.

      Hell, most people don't even believe me when I tell them that Obama has been trading guns and drugs across the Mexican border; making Obama part of a negligent mass murder and drug dealing conspiracy (look it up - Gun Walker). Obama has much of the blood for the mass murders going on in Mexico since he's been in office. He's literally helping to destabilize Mexico and lowering the cost of illegal drugs. Nor do they believe that police across the country have murdered people in cold blood with absolutely immunity - and that while not common, its far from rare. Nor do they realize the TSA believes they have the right to stop and prevent travel of anyone, even outside of private airport terminates Basically meaning, the TSA believes they are above the US Constitution. That required a direct order from Bush to stop it. The simple fact is, we ARE living in a world of secret police, where, "papers please...and we have ways of making you talk...", are far from satire. The government believes it lives above the law and we are all serfs to serve their big money friends. And they are right until more people pull their head from their asses and wake the fuck up.

      If you've not watched this series of videos, I beg that you do. Please keep in mind this is only the tip of the iceberg. When they made this documentary, they had tons of unused video. After they released these videos, TONS more flooded in. They had so much, they were clueless what to do with it all. Regardless, the thing you need to understand is that corruption is an everyday event, not the exception you're led to believe.

      And that's ignoring the fact that federalized funding of police departments (which is now an every day event thanks to the war on drugs) is actually illegal. By extension, this makes them federalized troops. And as we saw after Katrina, the federal government fully expects them to act as federalized troops. Hardly any surprise they did act as such, directly along side federal troops, who so proudly and literally punched old ladies in the face to steal their legal and Constitutionally protected weapons; many of which have never been seen again. The simple fact is, the federal government now has absolutely control of every state. No bones about it, when you look at a police department, understand you are looking at federal troops to keep you in line and suppressed. Which makes one wonder, why are they so scared of a revolt and so prepared to address it?

      And before anyone decides to troll moderate, please, get off your lazy butts and make an effort to educate yourselves about what's actually going on out there. The sad fact is, its largely the general public who are wearing the tin foil hats in denial. The information is all readily available for anyone who cares to look. The sad thing is, most major media simply refuses the cover these things - or when they do, they twist the facts. The Gun Walker and Fast and Furious gun programs are such examples. Under the law, Obama was supposed to have been impeached. All but one major media outlet goes out of their way to ignore these events.

    87. Re:Warned about what? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      So my prison cell is connected to another one and I can move freely between them? Sure gives me a lot more leg room...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    88. Re:Warned about what? by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

      >And here I was, thinking it was a two party dictatorship...

      While the US two party system is less than ideal, it is partially made up for by the nominations of the candidates. Both the republicans and the democrats have a nomination process that is heavily based on popular support among the people. In contrast a dictatorship would simply declare Rick Perry the supreme leader and have him in office for 40 years or so.

    89. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a database issue. With such a large list, running a profitable airline (already very difficult) will be nearly impossible, since that many people will be unable to buy tickets. With no airlines, there won't be any passengers at all. And with no passengers, the TSA will be out of a job.

    90. Re:Warned about what? by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Terrorists. I thought this was all discussed earlier...

    91. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except there's a decent chance the reporter won't care. Hell, some of them will have "Ready... Fight!" go off in their head upon hearing a government official's request for silence.

    92. Re:Warned about what? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      The search isn't important. What happens when every time you fly you see someone in the same queue as you refused? Are airlines going to start giving refunds? They're going to have to if there's perceived to be a significant chance of being denied access, or they'll face a big backlash. What about the delays?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    93. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh, lots of countries prove you can call yourself a republic and be a dictatorship at the same time.

      Anyway, since we have a two-party dictatorship we're obviously 50% more free than a single-party dictatorship like North Korea.

      50%? Really?

    94. Re:Warned about what? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      American citizens are being disappeared by the government on a daily basis. Apparently either their friends and family never notice or Big Media is in on it and so you never see a story about it

      People do disappear on a daily basis. Hell, my friend Amy disappears all the time, her husband calling me to ask if I've seen her. Many of those who disappear are never found. If only one out of the hundreds of people who disappear daily were taken by the government, how would their families and friends know? All they know is "uncle John disappeared" and that his gangster friends probably did it.

      Ever notice that you quite often hear reports on the national news about some young mother disappearing, but never about an old man missing? Who cares if some forty year old black man disappears, a young pretty white mother or two, however... You can't rely on the media.

      However, I personally doubt that many if any at all of the missing were kidnapped by the government.

    95. Re:Warned about what? by cpu6502 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      QUOTE: "(Abbott) told me in a very stern voice with quite a bit of attitude that they were not going through that X-ray," security officer Sabrina Birge told police. Birge said she told Abbott that the machine was "not an X-ray"

      Except 3/4 of the machines are indeed X-ray machines. And if they experience a mechnical failure, can hit passengers with lethal doses. I'm not sure I trust the machines either.

      QUOTE:"After Abbott refused to cool her heels - she allegedly attempted to try to shoot video of the agents with her cell phone - cops cuffed her and hauled her off to jail."

      The U.S. 1st Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that citizens have a first amendment "right of freedom of the press" to record the actions of government officials in public venues. Including with a camera, an audio recorder, or the old-fashioned way of writing it down on a tablet. This woman should never have been arrested.

      Assholes.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    96. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one who passed a third grade civics class has ever claimed that the US was a democracy. The Founders considered "free democracy" to be an oxymoron.

      Woman: What kind of government have you given us?
      Ben Franklin: A republic, madam, if you can keep it.

      Everything else you said was spot on.

    97. Re:Warned about what? by JoeInnes · · Score: 1

      No, you're 100% freer.

    98. Re:Warned about what? by Taty'sEyes · · Score: 1

      "American Idle" - I was going to criticize the misspelling, but it works both ways, nice.

      --
      We show geeks how to get their dream girl at EyesOfOdessa.com
    99. Re:Warned about what? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Releasing nude pictures of the reporters from when they went through one of those scanners. The scanners are VERY effective at their true purpose.

    100. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you ever think it was? The United States of America has always been a Republic.

      The USA is not a republic. It is a federal republic. A republic is run by all citizens. A federal republic is run by the federation. Very different forms of government.

    101. Re:Warned about what? by deciduousness · · Score: 1

      Way to fall into all the stereotypes of drug use. Let me guess, if he had a red nose and slurred his words, he would be drunk...

      There are certain signs that people exhibit on certain substances, but there are also mental conditions and even caffeine that can mimic some of these signs.

      I have seen people on PCP before, unless this guy did an extremely small amount, I highly doubt he ingested it. More likely he was just high on feeling what he was doing was right.

    102. Re:Warned about what? by hey! · · Score: 1

      It's a reasonable basis when he's in a place where he poses a nuisance or dangers to others. What he does in his home is his own business.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    103. Re:Warned about what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to the airlines that want people to actually purchase tickets.

    104. Re:Warned about what? by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it was a brain-to-keyboard translation error. I was thinking 2:1 -> 50% less, and ended up writing out the reverse instead.

    105. Re:Warned about what? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      "An elected legislature can trample a man's rights as easily as a monarch." -- Benjamin Martin (Mel Gibson), The Patriot

    106. Re:Warned about what? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      And "nevertheless" is one word

      Yes, it is. And "never the less" is a perfectly correct three word synonym that predates "nevertheless". I would imagine the first time someone used the word "nevertheless" a grammar pedant took him to task of it.

      It's not in TFA or even TFS, and its use doesn't change the meaning of the sentence or slow one's reading speed or comprehension like substituting "loose" for "lose" does, so what's the problem?

    107. Re:Warned about what? by Twanfox · · Score: 1

      ..., which would be reasonable basis to detain him for long enough to determine that he was just being an eccentric PITA, which is not a crime.

      Not a crime yet. Note, what he did probably might get him charges of public indecency, disturbing the peace, and my favorite, failure to comply. I just wonder when we get responsibility for one's actions on the authority's side. They push responsibility on the citizenry via the laws, but if they wrongfully detain anyone, 'oops' (if that) and moving on.

    108. Re:Warned about what? by GNULinuxGuy · · Score: 2

      Given that "an astounding 2,300 Americans are reported missing every day, including both adults and children" (truTV), it seems to me any number of agencies could easily pull this off at will. Not saying they do, but, how would we know?

      --
      Earn Cash and Prizes, and get free stuff!
    109. Re:Warned about what? by beckett · · Score: 1

      Not really. What he did would be pretty consistent with angel dust. If a bunch of people were acting very silly and laughing at things that aren't really funny, I'd suspect pot. It doesn't mean that they couldn't just be silly people, but it'd be *reasonable* to suspect marijuana.

      We don't need things like medical doctors and chemical assays as long as we can package your gut feelings and vestigial sense of humour into a body scanner.

    110. Re:Warned about what? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      This is Slashdot. As soon as a discussion can go off on a tangent about database performance or something else similarly esoteric, it will.

    111. Re:Warned about what? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      We aren't going to stop it, just like the people of Germany didn't do anything to stop the brownshirts and company. Instead, those of us who see what's coming or just get sick of the BS will simply leave the country, just like lots of Germans did in the 30s. The big difference between then and now is probably going to be that there won't be a giant world war to stop the US (we don't have the industrial capacity to run a big war machine anyway, at least not as long as China doesn't consent to it; we can't even make the LCD screens to go in fighter jets and tanks), and consequently, the US probably isn't going to collapse as quickly, leading the way for positive change. Germans who left Germany in disgust in the 30s were able to go back by the late 40s; the fall of the US is probably going to take much longer. Of course, I could be wrong; the US might economically collapse and states break away and form their own republics, with the central government in Washington being powerless to stop them. This would be ideal because then the better (and now smaller) republics would be able to rebuild and have healthy economies in short order, just like what happened with the Czech Republic after the Soviet empire collapsed.

    112. Re:Warned about what? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You know the poster is out of touch with reality (the worst he has to worry about is mom is late to the basement with the Mac N Cheese) when he thinks the only relevant issue to 10% of the traveling population being on the no-fly list is database lookup times.

    113. Re:Warned about what? by rhalstead · · Score: 1

      That's really not the point. If there are 10 million names on the do not fly list it'd cripple both the aviation industry and quite likely other industries whose people travel a lot. Then we really would have to subsidize the airlines.

  2. Warning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Too bad I can't warn this minimum wage TSA goon not to touch my wife's goodies or get bit so hard that blood is drawn.

    Oh the irony, the blood will have to be left in a container lest someone uses it to blow up the plane.

  3. Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by macaran · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would kind of suspect they know terrorists are already aware of the vulnerability, more likely they just don't want random Joe smoe smuggling a miniaturized gun onboard because he can, and then having an armed civilian on the flight if something goes wrong in the air.

    1. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by zlives · · Score: 5, Insightful

      or that we the sheep might object to yet more tax dollars spent on perceived security...

    2. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What terrorists?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by martin-boundary · · Score: 2

      You mean they *don't* want passengers to overpower and kill any terrorists if they show up on a flight? Sorry sir, you killed this terrorist without a license, that will be a $5000 fine, and a televised apology on FOX to the viewers who were hoping to see the White House ablaze.

    4. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You should watch Fox News from time to time. Been watching the real news shows again, right?

      Please, tune in to the propaganda, you're getting so out of the loop.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      FBIâ(TM)s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 27, 2012

      Denver: Man Arrested for Providing Material Support to a Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization

      Jamshid Muhtorov was arrested by members of the FBIâ(TM)s Denver and Chicago Joint Terrorism Task Forces on a charge of providing and attempting to provide material support to the Islamic Jihad Union, a Pakistan-based designated foreign terrorist organization. Full Story

      Baltimore: Man Pleads Guilty to Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction in Plot to Attack Armed Forces Recruiting Center

      U.S. citizen Antonio Martinez, aka Muhammad Hussain, pled guilty to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction against federal property in connection with a scheme to attack an armed forces recruiting station in Catonsville, Maryland. Full Story

      Washington Field: Man Pleads Guilty to Shootings at Pentagon, Other Military Buildings

      Yonathan Melaku, of Alexandria, Virginia, pled guilty to damaging property and to firearms violations involving five separate shootings at military installations in northern Virginia between October and November 2010, and to attempting to damage veteransâ(TM) memorials at Arlington National Cemetery. Full Story

      FBIâ(TM)s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending January 13, 2012

      1.Tampa: Florida Resident Charged with Plotting to Bomb Locations in Tampa

      A 25-year-old resident of Pinellas Park, Florida was charged in connection with an alleged plot to attack locations in Tampa with a vehicle bomb, assault rifle, and other explosives. Full Story

      2.Baltimore: Former Army Solider Charged with Attempting to Provide Material Support to al Shabaab

      A man who secretly converted to Islam days before he separated from the Army was charged with attempting to provide material support to al Shabaab, a foreign terrorist organization, and was arrested upon his return to Maryland after traveling to Africa. Full Story

      FBIâ(TM)s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending December 9, 2011

      Seattle: Man Pleads Guilty in Plot to Attack Military Processing Center

      A former Los Angeles man pled guilty in connection with the June 2011 plot to attack a military installation in Seattle. Full Story

      FBIâ(TM)s Top Ten News Stories for the Week Ending December 2, 2011

      San Diego: Woman Guilty of Conspiring to Provide Material Support to al Shabaab

      Nima Yusuf, 25, a resident of San Diego, pled guilty to conspiring to provide material support to al Shabaab, a foreign terrorist organization. Full Story

      More here.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    6. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      The ones in the TSA uniforms.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    7. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by houghi · · Score: 1

      What terrorists?

      See? The snake oil is working.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    8. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      With thousands of Americans dead, Noam Chomsky was so consumed by hatred of his own country and conviction that it was the fount of evil in the world that he traveled to Pakistan to inform Muslim audiences that America was planning to commit genocide in Afghanistan before it invaded to overthrow the Taliban.

      What was incorrect?

      When you hear about someone attacked by a tiger they were previously taunting, do you blame the taunters or the tiger? And is the tiger the Saudi Arabians who attacked in 2001, or the US retaliating? Why is it OK for the US to retaliate, but not others?

    9. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      government-appointed aeroplane hijackers

    10. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by cold+fjord · · Score: 0

      What was incorrect?

      You're kidding, right?

      . . . his own country and conviction that it was the fount of evil in the world . . he traveled to Pakistan to inform Muslim audiences that America was planning to commit genocide in Afghanistan before it invaded to overthrow the Taliban.

      Utter nonsense. Of course, maybe Chomsky is trying to over compensate for his denial of the Cambodian genocide for so many years.

      Ethical perversion, not peace, is Chomsky's raison d'etre

      One of the most disgraceful aspects of Chomsky's history as a political activist arises from his obdurate refusal to confess past sins. In his co-authored book Manufacturing Consent published in 1988, he continued to defend his refutation of the Khmer Rouge genocide. Even after demonstrable proof of crimes against humanity emerged after the 1979 Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia, Chomsky remained adamant that his initial dismissal of mass murder was justified.

      And in a stunningly dishonest interview given just last October to the Phnom Penh Post, Chomsky boasted of his "accurate review of the facts". He then engaged in the most brazen prevarication on his stance towards the Khmer Rouge, falsely claiming to have "harshly condemned Pol Pot's crimes".

      But the taking of such flagrant liberties with truth is par for the Chomsky course. During another scandalous episode in which Chomsky was caught fabricating quotations, historian Arthur Schlesinger remarked: "Like the squid, he covers his retreat in a cloud of black ink."

      Noam Chomsky's sordid history of service as an apologist for genocidaires is part of the open public record. And this gives rise to the question why the Sydney Peace Foundation selected such a morally tainted individual as an appropriate recipient for their 2011 Peace Prize.

      Why is it OK for the US to retaliate, but not others?

      Are you really trying to establish the principle that random collections of people can form terrorist groups and kill large number of civilians at will, just because they are angery? If one of your posts pisses off a bunch of Asians, it's OK with you if they load up a truck bomb and go hunting for you in your village/town/city, and set it off in the mall just because you might be there? I take it that the rule of law isn't so important to you then?

       

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    11. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by Hatta · · Score: 2

      That's amazing. The FBI must be batting 1000, since there hasn't been a successful terrorist attack in 10 years. Imagine that. Absolute perfection from law enforcement. It's almost enough to make you swoon from patriotism.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    12. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I'm implying that ALL media lie. As long as they tell different lies, you have a sliver of hope that democracy is still in effect.

      Be wary, though, if they all tell the same lies the government is telling you.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    13. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Well, as the old saying goes, the terrorism of the rich is war, the war of the poor is terrorism. It's not a justification, but an explanation. And, essentially, exactly the same reaction, just with different access to means.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    14. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I would kind of suspect they know terrorists are already aware of the vulnerability

      They're too busy exploiting the much much much larger security holes we opened up when we invaded two countries.

      Which, I guess ironically actually DOES us safer. Just at an unfathomable cost.

    15. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      All dissent must me silenced.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    16. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Are you really trying to establish the principle that random collections of people can form terrorist groups and kill large number of civilians at will, just because they are angery?

      Isn't that what the US did in Iraq?

    17. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Isn't that what the US did in Iraq?

      What do you think?

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    18. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      1: Denver - Firstly, that's an arrest, not a conviction (even the press statement notes he is innocent), secondly, he wasn't planning any terrorist attacks in the US, and was stopped trying to leave the country to go back to Uzbekistan (or Pakistan).

      2: Baltimore - this is another of those wonderful cases where the FBI creates a terrorist attack and then swoops in at the last minute, with great fanfare, to 'save' the day. There was never any risk of a terrorist attack, unless the FBI created it.

      3: Washington Field - that's not a terrorist; that's a random nutter who decided it would be a good idea to shoot at some military buildings from his car, and filmed it. No indication of any political motivation etc.

      4: Tampa - similar to 2, also still just charges, no actual proof. Just because someone wants to try to blow up a building, that doesn't mean there's the slightest chance they could do so.

      5: Baltimore - apparently this guy tried to go to Somalia to join an Islamic group there, his 'material support' appears to have been something like $700.

      6: Seattle - similar to 2 again (no actual risk, due to law enforcement providing weapons etc.), but otherwise, I'll give you that one.

      7: San Diego - similar to 5, but she successfully sent $1,450 to them (the Somali-based Islamic group).

      So, while four of those seem to be terrorists (assuming accusations to be true), and two tried to support terrorists, one doesn't seem to have been. Secondly, three of those (the three actually planning attacks in the US) were caught in sting operations, with law enforcement actively involved in their plots, providing equipment etc.. Thirdly, only one of those seems to have caused any damage (the non-terrorist), and that was possibly due to the ease of acquiring firearms in the US (which I won't get into). Fourthly, only 2 of those terrorists seem to have been in any position to actually carry out an attack, and were only stopped by law enforcement actions.

      However, the most important point: None of these was stopped, identified, limited or hindered in any way by the TSA. Most seem to have been picked up through informants, i.e. real human intelligence-gathering, rather than the security theatre that people above (and below) are complaining about.

      Also, that's (for the most part) taking the FBI's press releases at face value. Because, of course, they're going to be impartial.

    19. Re:Probably not suppressed for Terrorists. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      All silence must be dissented.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. Easy fix? by casualsax3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Aside from just scrapping them entirely, wouldn't this be a non-issue if they just had the traveler rotate 90 degrees and repeated the scan?

    1. Re:Easy fix? by Marillion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh sure. So you're advocating doubling the radiation dosage from a device that more than a few radiation experts are concerned about. Various pilot unions are very concerned about the amount of radiation their members are being exposed to.

      --
      This is a boring sig
    2. Re:Easy fix? by macaran · · Score: 2

      Someone who has actually used one of these could probably confirm or deny this, but I believe they are designed to just have people walk through them in an orderly fashion to not hold up lines. If everyone stopped and did a little ballerina turn in them it would slow things down immensely. Also that would detect things sewn into clothing, but probably not thin things like wires taped to the body.

    3. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Aside from just scrapping them entirely, wouldn't this be a non-issue if they just had the traveler rotate 90 degrees and repeated the scan?

      I like the first option.
      I mean, seriously, they built a 3D scanner using a booth! How does it cover just one direction of view? Why don't they also have each passenger do some Tai Chi forms to get all the angles right?

    4. Re:Easy fix? by casualsax3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, I think the entire program should be scrapped both because of the health hazards, and because it's a gross invasion of privacy. If they're hell bent on keeping it around though, the least they could do is make it work properly. I'd rather be exposed to a double dose of radiation if it actually made me safer, as opposed to the status quo which is one shot for theater's sake.

    5. Re:Easy fix? by HolyCrapSCOsux · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's what metal detectors do. I fly a lot. these go thusly:
      wait, get in, put your feet on the prints (rotated 90 degrees from normal walking direction), hold up your arms
      wait for the scanner to swipe through it's arc.
      get out
      wait on another set of footprints

      total time 20-45 seconds per scan.

      --
      0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
    6. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even if it was working as advertised, was free, didn't inconvenience you at all, wasn't an illegal search, and didn't have health risks... would it actually make you safer?

    7. Re:Easy fix? by russ_allegro · · Score: 1

      How would rotating 90 degrees prevent you from putting something on the inner thigh leg or arm? They would need to make something that you straddle and scan between the legs and arms. I'd imagine there is actually some material you can use around the object to show as skin anyway.

    8. Re:Easy fix? by VortexCortex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A double dose of cyanide will completely prevent any future terrorists from harming you.

    9. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Honestly, I feel bad for the people who work around the machines. There's no shielding. When TSA agents start getting cancer, part of me will feel bad for them. But part of me will be laughing hysterically.

    10. Re:Easy fix? by artor3 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Someone who has actually used one of these could probably confirm or deny this...

      As someone who has actually used one of these (many times), my answer is a solid "deny". You don't just walk through these scanners the way you do with the metal detectors. You walk in, turn to the side, spread your legs, put your hands in the air, and hold that position for about five seconds. They slow down the lines immensely. If you then had to turn another 90 degrees and hold for another five seconds, it would make things even worse.

      Considering that the scanners don't even detect the sort of threat they were rolled out in response to (the underwear bomber), they should just be scrapped entirely, and the government should do everything in its power to find a loophole in the contract to get some of our money back.

    11. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That would only find imaginary bombs.

    12. Re:Easy fix? by ZorinLynx · · Score: 1

      Better yet, have the person stand at a random angle. Either facing the scanner, 90 degrees left or right, or 45 degrees.

      Since the person to be screened will have no idea where to hide their contraband to avoid it being detected, the scanners are once again effective.

      However, I'd like to see the scanners scrapped so we can return to tried-and-true metal detectors. Primarily because I hate having to take off my belt!

    13. Re:Easy fix? by Wovel · · Score: 0

      You must work for he TSA.

    14. Re:Easy fix? by NixieBunny · · Score: 4, Informative

      Better yet, they could change the background to be white instead of black by changing the reflective properties of the material behind the person, thereby allowing metal strapped to one's sides to stand out.

      But I work on millimeter waves in my day job, so don't believe a word I say.

      --
      The determined Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language.
    15. Re:Easy fix? by Mitreya · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The radiation dosage received from the scanner is still less than what you get from the flight itself. If you are that worried about radiation, you probably don't want to be on the plane in the first place.

      Ok, two things:
      1. I need to get from A to B when I get on the plane. There is a perceived benefit and there is some incurred cost. Seeing how not a single one of these machines is know to have stopped a single terrorist, there is no perceived benefit to match going through the machine
      2. You say that radiation dose is miniscule. TSA says that radiation dose is miniscule. Others say that due to improper calibration (how many of TSA employees are qualified to calibrate a medlical-like device?) or due to other factors the radiation received may be 10X or 100X higher than the "optimal". TSA had refused to do a health study, so even assuming I trust everyone equally, that's a 50-50 risk that TSA assertion is wrong.

    16. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How would you do that with a backscatter x-ray machine though? Remember, there are two types of these machines and many of them use x-rays rather than millimeter waves (which should be much safer).

    17. Re:Easy fix? by Isaac+Remuant · · Score: 1

      Source?

      --
      "Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
    18. Re:Easy fix? by slippyblade · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And you say this on what grounds? The dosages that the machines give out is "Classified for National Security Purposes". They won't tell you how much you are getting dosed. It's illegal for them to tell you. Hell, if you listen to the TSA tell it, it's "the same as getting an ultrasound"

    19. Re:Easy fix? by unrtst · · Score: 2

      Also that would detect things sewn into clothing, but probably not thin things like wires taped to the body.

      Or 2x foot long razor blades: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3yaqq9Jjb4
      (that's a link to Adam Savage of Mythbusters fame giving a talk at w00tstock 2.0)

      FWIW, metal detectors *could* detect these, but they often have those things turned down so low stuff like this would pass right through anyway (I've gone through a bunch of times with my chunky metal belt buckle still on... left it on by mistake, and always surprised when it doesn't go beep).

      My favorite solution to this whole mess is to simply arm every passenger when they enter the plane.

    20. Re:Easy fix? by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I also do a fair amount of work travel, and detest the scanners, but I still find the baggage screening process to dominate the time required in line. Remember, this occurs in parallel with the baggage getting screened. Chances are that, while you're getting screened, the guy behind you is fumbling with his belt and the genius scanning the bags is reversing the conveyor belt to find the shampoo that someone had left in their bag.

      I've never found a backup of people trying to get through the people scanner, it's always waiting to shove your crap on the conveyor. I don't think they should be doing mm-wave pr0n at all, but I don't think a quick second scan slows the overall process down at all.

    21. Re:Easy fix? by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      I hear the flavour of the month is boysenberry.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    22. Re:Easy fix? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      No, but then I could at least ignore it and let the baby have its lolly.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    23. Re:Easy fix? by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Funny

      But how do we get every TSA worker to swallow it?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    24. Re:Easy fix? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Hold it right there, you know what dose you get from those machines? How did you get classified information?

      Or are you just repeating the TSA PR leaflet? If so, you should move to Japan. I heard the real estates near Fukushima are really cheap to get today, and the local nuclear plant is no threat anymore. At least according to its owner.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    25. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, by definition, if it was working as advertised then yes.

      it's advertised as making us safer.

      CAPTCHA: echelon

    26. Re:Easy fix? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You put your left arm in, you put your left arm out, in, out, in, out, shake it all about...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    27. Re:Easy fix? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      You are aware that the reason they were bought is most likely not to make someone safer but to make someone richer, yes? So why should anyone WANT to find a loophole to get money back?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    28. Re:Easy fix? by Drgnkght · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Anyone know if anyone has ever tried to go through one with a film badge dosimeter or something similar? That might prove very interesting.

    29. Re:Easy fix? by chilbert · · Score: 3, Interesting

      2. You say that radiation dose is miniscule. TSA says that radiation dose is miniscule. Others say that due to improper calibration (how many of TSA employees are qualified to calibrate a medlical-like device?) or due to other factors the radiation received may be 10X or 100X higher than the "optimal". TSA had refused to do a health study, so even assuming I trust everyone equally, that's a 50-50 risk that TSA assertion is wrong.

      In addition there's a concern that the radiation dose bounces back out from somewhere shallow below the surface of the skin, with unknown implications for damage to the skin.

    30. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, metal detectors are faster and more likely to actually catch something. Every time I go through one of these I get detained for search because I forget a penny in my pocket and change is suspicious.

    31. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I try to keep my radiation exposure as low as reasonably achievable, as per all the radiation safety classes I've taken. Inherently to there not being high speed rail from New York to LA or San Francisco to Hawaii, there is no reasonable way for me to travel about the country in a short length of time without exposing myself to increased cosmic radiation from flying. In other words, the pros of flying easily outweigh the cons of the increased cosmic radiation exposure.

      Similarly, I willingly accept the risks of working in an X-ray facility or getting a medical X-ray since there is no other reasonable way to learn the respective information without exposing oneself to those potential sources of radiation.

      On the other hand, not exposing myself to additional radiation from the X-ray backscatter machines is reasonably achievable: don't go through it. And, given the dubious effectiveness, the pros have not been shown to outweigh the cons.

    32. Re:Easy fix? by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Don't they sue people anymore for false advertising?

      The longer this goes on, the more I'm getting convinced that it's not about making 'us' safe from the terrorists, it's about making the terrorists safe from us.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    33. Re:Easy fix? by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Millimeter wave I don't have a prob with. Xrays I have a prob with. Millimeter wave is just radar. No ionizing radiation. Xrays, on the other tentacle, can seriously fuck you up.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    34. Re:Easy fix? by artor3 · · Score: 1

      I guess it varies by airport. Whenever I fly out of SJC, they typically have two carry-on screening lines feeding into a single backscatter machine. While any one conveyor line moves slower than the scanner, the net chokepoint always seems to be going through the backscatter machine. Sometimes they'll alleviate it by waving a few people from the backscatter line through a standard metal detector, as otherwise the line would get too backed up.

    35. Re:Easy fix? by macaran · · Score: 1

      My favorite solution to this whole mess is to simply arm every passenger when they enter the plane.

      This would certainly make airlines serve better food. =)

    36. Re:Easy fix? by T-Bucket · · Score: 1

      So concerned about it, in fact, that they made damn sure the pilots aren't subject to these ridiculous machines. I fly on average 19 days a month, and I have NEVER been through one. Never will, either.

    37. Re:Easy fix? by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Two words: inner thigh.

    38. Re:Easy fix? by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

      Because if the scanner makers paid off *every* legislator, they'd be operating at a loss. All it would take is a small group of congressmen to initiate a bill, a wave of public support from the bill to materialize, and it would pass easily because it's an election year.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    39. Re:Easy fix? by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      But it doesn't actually make you safer.
      It's sad, if the average /. can't understand that, we have no hope.

    40. Re:Easy fix? by imunfair · · Score: 2

      That's purely an American problem.

      In Italy last year I found the line moved at about the same speed as the scanner, and occasionally they would wave people with laptops over to a table to do a 30 second explosives swab. They also had a conveyor belt above the machine to return the empty bins, rather than having a TSA drone hand stack the refills.

      At the Adelaide airport in Sydney I had to hustle to get my laptop out of the bag and the change out of my pockets fast enough to prevent holding up the line. They also don't bother with silly things like taking off your shoes - and Australia doesn't seem to have a liquid limit either - I accidentally sent a nearly full 1.5 litre bottle of water through in my backpack and they didn't even stop to inspect it.

      Other countries have much saner and faster screening procedures, akin to what I remember it being like when I flew as a kid/teen in the early 90's.

    41. Re:Easy fix? by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      Someone who has actually used one of these could probably confirm or deny this, but I believe they are designed to just have people walk through them in an orderly fashion to not hold up lines

      No, they are not designed thusly. They take about a minute to do a scan, and hold up the lines. The medal detectors aren't even designed to have people just walk through them in an orderly fashion.

    42. Re:Easy fix? by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      As someone who has actually used one of these (many times),

      WHY? WHY are you using the machines? The more people that opt out, the more chance the machines will get junked.

    43. Re:Easy fix? by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      I also do a fair amount of travelling, and while I have to wait for the guy to fill up 6 trays, I have to always wait for someone to go through the machine. Even though I opt out every time. Of course it doesn't help that there is usually two xray machines per one scanner.

    44. Re:Easy fix? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Shall we assume you won't be demonstrating?

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    45. Re:Easy fix? by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      The radiation dosage is ionizing, and thus CUMULATIVE. Even if it's less than what you get from the flight itself it's still more than you need to get, and the more you use public transit the more you get. Since they're trying to expand to busses/trains it likely won't be long before those have X-ray scanners as well.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    46. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A TSA employee had her pay check declined at a major retailer because it matched fraud/risk patterns. She got extremely angry and could not understand how this could be. I tried and I tried to explain that just like credit cards, checks can be declined if there's a possibility that they are stolen. It was just a security precaution. But she just continued to yell at me. Eventually she left in a huff.

      Once she was gone I laughed by fucking ass off.

    47. Re:Easy fix? by CubicleView · · Score: 1

      I guess you could get people to stand at a 45 degree offset to the normal. with the legs spread in a bit of a lunge pose...and actually build a metal detector into the thing as well...and randomly select weather they're to face 45 degrees to the right or left...or just scrap the damned thing.

    48. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, why don't they strap a dosimeter to their side next time they pass through the scanner? That shouldn't go noticed and give them a nice reading...

    49. Re:Easy fix? by Kentari · · Score: 2

      No, that's what the TSA agent does when you opt for the 'pat down'.

    50. Re:Easy fix? by adolf · · Score: 1

      This would certainly make airlines serve better food. =)

      What food?

    51. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot the additional "random" pat-down after the scan (or am I just special?), versus a quick stroll through the metal detector and on your way, both providing about the same level of security.

    52. Re:Easy fix? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      What about things affixed to the bottom of the feet. Are we then going to have to do the Hokey-Pokey in the scanner then. What about stuffing stuff in a body cavity.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    53. Re:Easy fix? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      TSA had refused to do a health study

      You can't do a direct health study at that low of an incidence rate. You could do basic research on the health risks of radiation, but we've already done that. You can have a third party come and measure the output dosage of the scanners and use our knowledge of radiation health risks to establish the level of risk, but they've already done that, too.

      so even assuming I trust everyone equally, that's a 50-50 risk that TSA assertion is wrong.

      No, it means there's an unknown risk. I refer you to The Daily Show for a better understanding of probability.

    54. Re:Easy fix? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Where'd you come up with that? The results of the radiation dosage measurements are posted on their website. It seems weird that they would willingly tell you classified data.

    55. Re:Easy fix? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      It's about 2 microrem per scan. A third party has tested many of the machines and the test results are posted on the TSA's website.

    56. Re:Easy fix? by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      Enhanced Patdowns For All

    57. Re:Easy fix? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be too impressed with their ability to operate a metal detector given what I have accidentally brought through security over the years on my self or in carry on. A short list of the banned items include:
      1. My large pocket knife, 5 inch lock blade brass handle
      2. My small pocket knife, 3 blades largest on is 3 inches
      3. About a dozen shotgun shells (3 inch magnum goose loads)
      4. Almost a full box of rifle rounds (steel cased 7.62x54r)
      5. My straight edge razor set (3 different sizes and styles)
      6. Keys
      7. pocket change
      All of these items went through some from of metal detector or X-ray scanner and were missed by the TSA agents. I have yet to be stopped and questioned about any of those things, but every time I sent my old metal body 35mm film SLR and lenses through the carry on scanner with the bulb cable, flash additional lenses, film canisters, and filters it is 20 questions and time to dig through everything.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    58. Re:Easy fix? by Stargoat · · Score: 2

      Well yeah. A few rounds here or there won't hurt anything. But a picture or two can stop an entire war.

      --
      Hoist Number One and Number Six.
    59. Re:Easy fix? by randallman · · Score: 1

      Also, dose is not the only factor to consider. The scanners are designed to concentrate radiation on a single organ - your skin, where as the radiation you encouter in flight is more equally distributed. Also, the duration of exposure is important. Receiving a particular dose over a few milliseconds is more harmful than receiving the same dose over an hour or two.

    60. Re:Easy fix? by slippyblade · · Score: 1

      On who's site, the TSA? Or are you looking at manufacturing specs. Last time I looked there were no dosages reported and the reason printed was National Security.

    61. Re:Easy fix? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Yes, I should have clarified. The TSA's site.

      I haven't seen manufacturing specs available. Dosage considerations are substantially discussed in their patent, but that's not a reliable source of information.

    62. Re:Easy fix? by CubicleView · · Score: 1
      A friend of mine sent a large swiss army knift though the x-ray scanner, I myself have more than once sent a 2 inch leather man squirt through an x-ray scanner. I think we lucked out maybe because both objects were folded up and not 100% an obvious knife shape. I could be wrong but I would imagine a short thin knife blade on its edge, like a hacksaw blade with no handle would probably pass through an x-ray scanner just fine. My theory is that it would just be a thin line on the scanner. If I rememebr correctly Jamie from Mythbusters apparently got through a metal detector and maybe a pat down with hacksaw blades in a side pocket.

      Can't imagine how you got away with all that other stuff though, or why you would have them in your carry on...but that's your own business I guess.

    63. Re:Easy fix? by danparks · · Score: 1

      Various pilot unions are very concerned about the amount of radiation their members are being exposed to.

      Hey, I'm all for guys protecting their genitals, but shouldn't the union also be concerned about the other body parts being subject to radiation?

    64. Re:Easy fix? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Even with random angles things could still be hidden on the bottom of your feet or suspended between your legs.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    65. Re:Easy fix? by Marillion · · Score: 1

      Please don't use "TSA Worker" and "Swallow" in the same sentence. The mental images it produces are too disturbing.

      --
      This is a boring sig
    66. Re:Easy fix? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      The straight edge razors were my mistake for not checking my luggage (I checked it on the return flight) the ammo was in a coat pocket and was forgotten about. The pocket knives were brought through multiple times in my pants pocket since I always have them on me and I didn't remember to take them out before leaving to go to the airport. I have frequently forgotten to take my keys and change out of my pocket. I am astounded by the complete and total incompetence that they didn't catch those things since it all should be easily detected with a simple metal detector or X-ray baggage scanner, especially the ammo that went through the carry on scanner in my coat pocket. I could understand viewing things on edge but my large pocket knife with the brass handle (5.5 inches long, 1 inch tall, 1/2 inch thick) should have shown up, its not like it is thin like the straight edge razors (the spine on those is still 1/8 inch or so thick).

      --
      Time to offend someone
    67. Re:Easy fix? by Dracophile · · Score: 1
      "At the Adelaide airport in Sydney..."

      We don't have an Adelaide airport in Sydney. We have a Sydney airport here and it's a pain in the arse.

      --
      Athy, athier, athiest.
    68. Re:Easy fix? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      You are aware that the reason they were bought is most likely not to make someone safer but to make someone richer, yes? So why should anyone WANT to find a loophole to get money back?

      Because they paid taxes at gunpoint that went to crap like this? (People who work for the government also pay taxes.)

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    69. Re:Easy fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I once (politely) challenged the assumptions of a TSA agent who frisked me for not going through the machine. He began to repeat what he was obviously told to tell fliers about the "safety" of the machines. But, then I began to break it down for him. Do you really know how much radiation it emits? You say they gave you a radiation badge? How do you know you can trust that badge to be what they tell you it is?

      His voice lowered as he continued to frisk me and he began to openly acknowledge that he tries to stay as far away from those things as possible when he's on the job. He said that technicians who work on the machine treat it like it's a hazardous waste spill, getting in and out of there as quickly as possible. He has wanted to challenge his employer at least to get some protective shielding to wear during his shift, but they won't consider it. Said he'd like to have children someday, but doesn't know if that'd even be possible now.

      I recorded the whole conversation on my phone. Always, always turn on at least the audio record feature of your phone, if not the video record feature, before you go through the line. You never know what you'll capture.

  5. TSA has this covered. by Xandrax · · Score: 5, Funny

    Much like the underwear bomber, TSA has this all planned out.

    1. Allow terrorist onboard with a weapon hidden at his side.
    2. Civilians on plane stop terrorist when he attempts to take over plane.
    3. TSA announces that the system worked.

    These "reporters" are clearly interfering with step #1.

    1. Re:TSA has this covered. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Terribly sad this is moderated "funny" when its an actual event that happened in exactly that way.

      That and the same person who said it, also released memo's saying belief in the constitution was behavior to watch for in terrorists.

  6. Stupid constitution. by zippo01 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Conversation between TSA and reporter. TSA:You really don't want to run that story about the billions wasted on ineffective airport body scanners. On a side note I hear Guantanamo Bay is nice this time of year, me and the wife are thinking of taking a trip. Reporter: Don't I have constitutional rights of free speech and what not. TSA: Don't worry about that. I mean, we ignored them when we put the scanners in anyway, didn't we. Reporter: Oh yeah.

  7. the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by FudRucker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    not only are they searching people without probable cause, the airlines should be left to police themselves so the tax payers wont have to pay for it, let the airline customers pay for it...

    I will stay away from the airports if the TSA stays out of my pants, and I refuse to step in to your xray cancer machines.

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    1. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by HolyCrapSCOsux · · Score: 2

      I think you meant "until" instead of "if"

      --
      0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
    2. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by odie5533 · · Score: 1

      I think it is in our best interests to regulate and police the airlines. We aren't doing the best job of it, but I'd rather not leave it up to profiteering individuals to self-regulate.

      The public pays some of the expensive because we as a society want our airlines secure for the general public. We also want to be able to use the aircrafts during possible emergency situations, so we have the CRAF as well.

    3. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by BoberFett · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't think the airlines have a vested interest in keeping their planes from falling out of the sky?

    4. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who do you think was 'policing" this when 911 happened?

    5. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Why not? Obviously they have a vested interest in making sure that terrorists aren't blowing their planes out of the sky. Put the culpability on them where there can actually be some sort of reaction by the public. As it is now, if a terrorist sneaks through and we have another terrorist attack, what are we gonna get? "Oops, we'll do a thorough investigation, shift a few people around to other departments, and do absolutely fuck all to make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry America!!"

      Any airline that skimps on security won't be able to insure their planes, not to mention the liability for all the wrongful death due to negligence suits that would follow. You think they would take a chance on that happening? I doubt it. The TSA goon with the plastic badge doesn't give a flying fuck. Believe me, I know. I proctored the TSA testing for years, and I assure you, 'test' is a bit of a stretch, not to mention the fact that half the people that sat for the test were either covered in gang tattoos or looked like the "after" pic on those "this is what crystal meth does to you" photos...

      I'm not one of those "privatize everything" people, but the TSA is a fucking joke that should be completely defunded and disbanded. Putting active-duty military in there with dogs and SMGs would be more of a deterrent than the TSA and the scanners, and we're already paying them anyway.

    6. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unconstitutional as heck!

      Daggummit, you're surely right! Hot diggatty do, you are!

      And I agree the airlines should handle security. And what I would hope would happen is that those of who've flown often without an incident would get nothing but a "Yes, sir! Welcome aboard!" for a security screening.

      Damn straight!

      Oops, sorry for cussing.

    7. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by FudRucker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      yes i do, thats why airline security should be privatized and run by the airlines themselves at the expense of the airlines/customers and not the tax payers, the TSA is just another expensive bloated ineffective bureaucracy we all have to pay for

      --
      Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    8. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My uncle who works for Boeing refuses to fly commercial, and he is an engineer who has worked for NASA.

    9. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by slippyblade · · Score: 2

      And it's been shown time after time that the "policing" by the TSA would not have had the slightest affect on ANY of the terrorist plots to date. Including 9/11.

    10. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by forand · · Score: 2

      The problem with this opinion is that in the long run the government IS on the line for ANY security failure. Privatizing may have many good side effects (e.g. less intrusive procedures and lower costs) but at the end of the day I think the airlines want the government to be fully on the hook for security failures. Before 9/11 (and thus during it) security was privatized. It failed. Airlines were able to push the blame for THEIR security failure onto the public sector. I do not see any reason why they would want to take on this risk. RIght now it is cheaper in both the long and short for the airlines (i.e. we all, as tax payers, pay not just those who fly) and you won't get a privatized solution until the airlines see a benefit from it.

    11. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cool story bro

    12. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by T-Bucket · · Score: 1

      Ha, are you kidding? The only concern of the airlines would be to do security screening as cheaply as possible. Their solution would be to have the gate agent ask you if you're a terrorist as they scan your boarding pass. As long as you didn't say "yes", you're safe.

    13. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by FudRucker · · Score: 1

      the airlines wont be in business for long if terrorists crash all their planes or blow them up or do whatever else terrorists do, remember when they either had them flown to Cuba or would negotiate to have Palestinian prisoners released?

      --
      Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    14. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't think the airlines have a vested interest in keeping their planes from falling out of the sky?

      Don't you think Wall Street has a vested interest in not collapsing the economy? How'd that work out?

    15. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you kidding? When has the govt. ever been on the hook, let alone punished for failures.

    16. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Actually, because of government intervention, no. Wall Street does not care what happens because as we all now know, they will get bailed out by the taxpayer.

      The problem is not a failure of government inaction, it's a failure of government guaranteed success.

    17. Re:the TSA is unconstitutional as heck! by Travelsonic · · Score: 1

      Private security. So what? Anybody who knows the ACTUAL FACTS knows to blame them is retarded, ignorant, short sighted, all of the above.

      --
      If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
  8. Hope they don't consider my Facebook feed "media" by hawks5999 · · Score: 1

    Cuz that would make me threatened.

  9. They're hardly perfect by Kjella · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I remember back in 2002 I had this huge inner door house key, like really big old fashioned solid iron thing. It ended up being in my pocket as I walked through the metal detector, so I just clenched it in my palm thinking I'll have to show it anyway. Passed right through, not a beep. It was big enough it'd easily be the blade of a pretty good knife. And it beeped for some other passengers so it wasn't defective either. Of course this was after 9/11 so everybody was on their toes, I showed it to a friend and he was like "Seriously? You got to be kidding me..." but it happened.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:They're hardly perfect by PRMan · · Score: 2, Informative

      If the key were brass or bronze, there would be very little iron to pick up for a hunk of metal for that size and weight.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    2. Re:They're hardly perfect by asher09 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Since I work in a lab, I use razor blades for many different reasons. I used to keep one in my wallet for convenience. Then I forgot about it when I went through security at an airport, and I got through it no problem with my razor blade on the flight! This was right after 9/11 like early 2002, I think.

      --
      Some were yelling one thing, some another. Most of them had no idea what was going on or why they were there. Acts19:32
    3. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I sometimes wonder if the detectors are actually running or if someone is just sitting there hitting a button at random to make it beep when people walk through.

    4. Re:They're hardly perfect by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Funny

      Luckily, neither brass nor bronze are of any value for either holding an edge or inflicting blunt trauma...

      And no need to even mention ceramics or the fancier plastics, that shit is totally harmless.

    5. Re:They're hardly perfect by marcosdumay · · Score: 4, Informative

      They aren't iron detectors, they are metal detectors.

      In fact, they'd detect bronze better than steel.

    6. Re:They're hardly perfect by AngryDeuce · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Man, I once got through with a few unused razor blades in my carry-on I had left there by mistake. I don't know if it was the cardboard covering or what, but they weren't even inside my bag, it was one of those backpacks with the mesh pockets and you could see them right through it. Got right through.

      Meanwhile, my sister-in-law, who is permanently disabled due to being wounded in Iraq, has 10 pounds of metal in her leg, and has to walk with a cane, she gets a ration of shit every single fucking time we go through the airport. They try to take not only her cane, but her damn knee brace every single time, saying it could be used as a weapon, but the best part is, when she complains and makes a scene, they always wave her through, which really makes me want to ask (if I wanted to end up in a windowless room when my plane takes off, that is): If it truly could be used as a weapon and is dangerous, why the fuck is complaining enough to get waved through? And if it's not, why the fuck do they stop her and try to take it from her every time she goes through security?

      The TSA is a fucking joke...

    7. Re:They're hardly perfect by dbet · · Score: 1

      That's nothing. Ceramic blades don't show up at all, either on the metal detector or on the body scan. I mean, a blade big enough to be considered a sword would not show up at all. Want to stop terrorism on planes? Stop pissing people off to the point that they want to kill a whole plane full of people.

    8. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My brother in law accidentally flew with a loaded gun in his carry on bag a couple years ago. He's DEA, so he probably wouldn't have been thrown in jail if they noticed it, but he wasn't on the job, he was taking a fucking vacation to DisneyWorld and passed through the same (in)security as everyone else.

    9. Re:They're hardly perfect by PPH · · Score: 1

      Luckily, neither brass nor bronze are of any value for either holding an edge or inflicting blunt trauma...

      Brass knuckles?

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    10. Re:They're hardly perfect by slippyblade · · Score: 4, Funny

      I typed out an entire response about the Bronze Age before I realized you were being sarcastic... My sensor is busted today I guess.

    11. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah? Well back in 2007, a buddy of mine got through with a full sized hunting knife. The thing was practically bowie knife size... at least 9" unfolded. We were coming back from a trade show, he uses the knife at the shows, already in line, and he's like: "Oh, crap! I forgot to check this!" then: "Well I don't want to step out of line, that would be even more suspicious. Let them confiscate it."

      Well, they didn't. They didn't even give it a second look. Proves the system is fundamentally flawed. I was there... I saw the whole thing transpire.

      The body scanners and TSA itself should be disbanded & taxpayers returned their monies. The only things the TSA has demonstrated itself adept at is harassing and invading the privacy of innocent citizens. The establishment of the agency in the first place was yet another stupid George W. Bush decision.

    12. Re:They're hardly perfect by Cosgrach · · Score: 1

      I have other friends in law enforcement / military with similar stories. Walk right on board with a gun and not realize it until they were in the hotel.

      --
      Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
    13. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's nothing. Ceramic blades don't show up at all, either on the metal detector or on the body scan. I mean, a blade big enough to be considered a sword would not show up at all. Want to stop terrorism on planes? Stop pissing people off to the point that they want to kill a whole plane full of people.

      FYI... Most (if not all) ceramic knives have a steel slug embedded in the handle near the blade-shank --- exactly so they DO show up in X-Rays and metal detectors.

    14. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woosh.

    15. Re:They're hardly perfect by ProzacPatient · · Score: 1

      Apparently Adam Savage from MythBusters was able to get onto an airplane with two giant 12" razor blades.

      I'm sure some of the TSA's efforts aren't entirely useless but for the most part everyone knows the TSA's antics is just a security theater.
      IMO the "terrorists" have won by terrorizing a world super power into being paranoid to the point of compromising it's own principals.

    16. Re:They're hardly perfect by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What exactly are bullets made of? I keep forgetting...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    17. Re:They're hardly perfect by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Anyone here who doesn't know yet that the whole TSA is mostly a job creation project? No? Good.

      Let's be blunt and honest here: These people have close to zero training in security, they have near zero training in the technology they use and they are most certainly not chosen for their people skills, their intelligence or their ability to work efficiently.

      If they had ANY of those qualities, they could have a real job!

      It's a job creation program for people who are generally unemployable.

      Gee, I hope I didn't just spill a national secret...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re:They're hardly perfect by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I guess the idea is to get people so pissed when they finally get on the plane that they WISH someone would wanna hijack the plane so they could not only club someone to death without fearing punishment but also be a hero for doing so.

      A hero is, in general, a person who has been brought to the point where he simply doesn't really give a fuck about living anymore as long as it's over quickly. I guess that's the plan...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    19. Re:They're hardly perfect by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      You do realize that most of the people who wish to commit terrorism are part of a religion that teaches that killing those who do not share their beliefs is a guaranteed trip to paradise, right?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    20. Re:They're hardly perfect by kidgenius · · Score: 1
      Lead?

      Maybe lead with a copper covering if it is an FMJ round?

      Or, are you talking about the casing, which is brass, but that bit doesn't get shot at you....

    21. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What's worse? They'll allow soldiers on board with rifle cases, but still take away their nail clippers.

      I routinely carried a large fighting knife, a switchblade, and a multitool in my rifle case when I was enlisted. On my way back from a deployment, while holding the rifle case in my hands) I was told that I couldn't carry nail clippers in my carry on for domestic flights. The TSA agent didn't even seem to notice how stupid this was.

    22. Re:They're hardly perfect by veganboyjosh · · Score: 2

      In 2010, I flew from Denver to Minneapolis. It was a visit during which, I would be riding a loaned bicycle, so I brought a multitool should I need to do some roadside repairs on the loaner. On my flight there, I had plenty of time to go through security and if the multitool (which had a 2" knife blade) was not allowed, I could go check the bag it was in. I went through security without a hiccup.

      Landed in Minneapolis, and went to check with security, since I wouldn't have such a time window on my return flight, and wanted to see if I would need to check the bag with the multitool in it or if it would be allowed. I went up to the security station and politely asked the TSA agent if this would be allowed. I had it in my hand as I approached. The knife blade wasn't visible but it was obvious that it was a bicycle multitool. I asked if it would be allowed. A fellow agent came over in the middle of my explanation, and started to ask some questions about the tool.

      The first agent sort of waved his hand and said "It's ok, it's a bicycle multitool. It has wrenches and screwdrivers, right? You should be fine."

      To which i responded "Well, it does have a 2" knife blade on it, in case you need to cut something."

      At this point, the agent stiffened up, looked around and in a very serious voice said "Sir? You have a knife on your person? How did you get into this secure area? You need to leave this secure area immediately or..." and then went into this official sounding tirade.

      I tried restating my question, but you'd think I had threatened to stab the guy. I checked the bag on the return flight, but it turns out they didn't like the burly bicycle lock in my check bag, either. As if a big chain would be a threat in the belly of the plane...

    23. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I got through with gunpowder.. I had a joke present from Christmas that involved black-powder and powder-coated objects meant to create small blasts and throw sparks. I had the powder and objects them loose in my carry-on bag. It didn't dawn on me what trouble i was about to get in until I was walking through the detector. Sure enough, I was called to the side and they did the bomb-swipe with the little pads, and a search. I was pretty nervous, thinking, "Oh shit, I actually have explosives in my bag," thinking how long the detention and questions were going to be.

            However, the explosives detector came up clean, as did the manual search. I was waved on through, black powder and all.

    24. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a perfect ADA lawsuit.

    25. Re:They're hardly perfect by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Lead and antimony alloys. Some are jacketted with steel.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    26. Re:They're hardly perfect by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      I need a cane to walk with. It's solid wood, except for the rubber crutch tip on it. Every time I need to fly, they tell me to surrender my cane & walk thru the metal detector. I keep tellin them, just xray the damned cane & give it back, I can't walk without it. Half the time, they handwand me afterwards and give me a patdown for good measure.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    27. Re:They're hardly perfect by Fjandr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That only works when the conditions exist where people are drawn to the extremist teachers out of desperation and/or complete lack of hope for the future. It's the people who are already marginalized who are drawn to that sort of rhetoric. If you work on the root of the problem (the marginalization), the pool of potential terrorists gets drastically smaller.

    28. Re:They're hardly perfect by pla · · Score: 1

      And no need to even mention ceramics or the fancier plastics, that shit is totally harmless.

      Seriously? I have a ceramic (kitchen) knife. Damned fragile, and they won't survive a drop from the counter unless you get very very lucky... But sharper than any metal blade I've ever seen. Like scary sharp, the sort of thing that demands your respect or enforces its own punishment. Like easy to draw blood just washing the damned things if you don't pay attention to the task.

      You probably couldn't effectively use it for a stabbing motion, but for slashing, you can cut to the bone with ease.

    29. Re:They're hardly perfect by steveha · · Score: 1

      They aren't iron detectors, they are metal detectors.

      In fact, they'd detect bronze better than steel.

      I have a bronze belt buckle that I have worn many times through airport metal detectors. So, I'd like a citation, because my personal experience argues against your claim.

      P.S. I wonder if we will start seeing obsidian or synthetic diamond knives. Good luck detecting those...

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    30. Re:They're hardly perfect by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      Ceramic knives hold an edge very well, and often tend to be made with a 15 degree edge. That makes them sharp, and they stay sharp. But they're not sharper than metal, any knife with a martinsitic edge at a 15 degree angle will be just as sharp. The problem is that adding chrome makes getting steel into the martensite phase harder, so such knives tend to be mild steel. With differential hardening you can have a pearlite body and martensite edge (like a katana) and get a very sharp, durable metal knife. I've a pearlite/martinsite tanto, and it's the sort of knife that demand proper handling. Try to catch one if you drop it and you'll lose a finger or four.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    31. Re:They're hardly perfect by houghi · · Score: 1

      Terrorists should go to prison first where they learn how to make guns from soap and knives from about anything, including pens.
      Also will they be able to smuggle C4 in the same way drug mules do.

      As a terrorist, I would avoid the whole circus and bl;ow up the lines people are waiting in to get scanned.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    32. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just go through in a wheel chair. you think they will make you get out of the chair? No not if you tell them you can not stand its in the regs on the TSA website.

      Hollow metal canes are allowed as well.

    33. Re:They're hardly perfect by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      It's the people who are already marginalized who are drawn to that sort of rhetoric.

      You mean, like doctors and engineers and other members of the educated professional classes?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    34. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a cook I use several fancy ceramic knifes, some of them have that "Scary Movie" look. Not an atom of metal to them.

      (useless in a fight, thought... any torsion will break the blade)

    35. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why can't we create jobs for them where they do something harmless, like dig holes and then fill them in again? Why are we putting them in positions of authority when they're only there because they clearly don't have even the minimum levels of intelligence and physical fitness to be a real cop?

    36. Re:They're hardly perfect by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Hell I have gotten steel cased rifle rounds (7.62x54r) past the TSA as well as 3 inch magnum goose loads (12 gauge #2 steel shot) past the TSA. They seem pretty incompetent when it comes to scanning.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    37. Re:They're hardly perfect by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Actually most bullets are lead alloy core jacketed with copper if they are high velocity rounds (the harder copper jacket doesn't foul the barrel as much as the lead would). The full metal jacket ones are just that, fully jacketed in copper, while hollow points have a hole at the very tip in the copper jacket and soft points the tip is just lead. Some bullets have steel cores, sometimes this is a hardened steel for armor piercing and some times it is a mild steel to cut costs (cheap 7.62x39 and 7.62x54r ammo). Low velocity bullets (22LR and some handgun rounds mostly) usually don't have a harder copper jacket as they aren't as prone to lead fouling as their higher velocity brethren.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    38. Re:They're hardly perfect by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      I have some nice high carbon steel knives that would disagree with sharpness, I have shaved off a finger tip a few times when slicing tomatoes or other veggies when I wasn't careful (finger tips bleed like hell). Granted they don't hold an edge like ceramic knives do (I have to strop them before each use and sharpen them every few months) but they can take a lot more abuse. They are all fully capable of shaving with and include a nice set full set of kitchen knives, pocket knives, a couple of kukris I take hunting (great for limbing trees, chopping/splitting wood, and field dressing), as well as a set of straight edge razors I have for shaving.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    39. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a bronze belt buckle that I have worn many times through airport metal detectors. So, I'd like a citation, because my personal experience argues against your claim.

      Did you try a steel one too? Of the same shape? They're not iron detectors, they're metal detectors. It's right in the fucking name and you want a citation? Fine. A metal detector is a device which responds to metal that may not be readily apparent. Because of the way they work, the shape of the metal is very significant. A copper loop under your shirt will cause a huge signal, while a iron ball of the same weight won't be detected. This is because they detect eddy currents, not magnetism, like you seem to think.

      Sorry for being so pissy, but asking for citations on something that takes 5 seconds to Google is being a fucking asshole.

    40. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that's the case, then it's a terrible, terrible project.

      Half a trillion dollars could be used to make TONS more jobs in other industries, than just focusing on a handful, while at the same time irradiating them and others.

      One of the first things that comes to mind is construction. A lot of roads need repairing BADLY, or replacing, or buildings need to be built, etc, etc. If we had thousands of extra sheetmetal workers, insulators, plumbers, electricians, even just 'gofers' that hold up drywall or run and get supplies or otherwise assist with fully trained construction workers, things could be repaired or built twice as fast (number just pulled out of my ass obviously, but more construction workers = faster construction work). And I worked in construction for years (insulator), so I can tell you that having more people on the job of building that hospital that I worked on would have put that building up a helluva lot faster.

    41. Re:They're hardly perfect by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Yes, because they compose such a large percentage of converts to radical Islam /sarc. Of course there are going to be those who are more privileged. It doesn't invalidate the point that the "promise of heaven" for killing yourself is not the root cause of getting people to commit terrorist acts. It takes a lot of other circumstances working together to create a situation where that is an effective sales pitch to increase membership in an extremist group.

      Usually, those educated jihadis were radical prior to getting their education (at least in most cases I'm familiar with). In fact, I would almost guarantee many of them get their education specifically to further their goals, rather than being educated and then falling in with extremists.

      One of the reasons, as stated previously, is that extremist groups are attractive to those with few options because they can offer support and options. I would guarantee one of those is helping educate young jihadis who show promise in areas which are useful to a terrorist organization ... such as engineering and medicine.

    42. Re:They're hardly perfect by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      They may not compose a large percentage of converts to radical islam, but they do compose a large percentage of islamic terrorists.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    43. Re:They're hardly perfect by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Most decent metal detectors don't detect magnetic resonance; they detect RF resonance, which all conductors (including all metals) have. Ceramics and glass, being insulators, don't have RF resonance, and so don't set off the detector.

      Seems to me that any metallic object crafted to cancel out/dampen its own resonance field would pass by a standard metal detector too.

    44. Re:They're hardly perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strangely, the same thing happened to me in San Jose, California. I had a whole set of Ginsu knives in my carry-on baggage and forgot they were in there. After going through the scanners, TSA pulled my bagged aside. After inspecting everything they pulled out a tube of toothpaste and told me it was too big. I then told them that I didn't need it, and they threw it away. Afterwards I was free to go on my flight.

      So you guys might be worried about keys, belts, etc. I actually carried a whole SET of knives on a plane.

    45. Re:They're hardly perfect by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Well, it looks like certain professionals are actually over-represented in general, but it also appears my original statement is both valid and applies to highly educated people too. I guess it makes sense that the sense of hopelessness is even greater when you have no prospects despite being highly educated. So, while my supposition about their motivations for getting a specific degree could very well be wrong, the marginalization aspect at least has some evidentiary basis. Engineers in particular (doctors to a slightly lesser extent) are apparently attracted not to a guarantee of paradise but to the rigidly enforced structure of extremist religious groups. They were also in abundance in their support of Mussolini, Hitler, and are currently over-represented in the Aryan movement, the far Christian right, and Hindu fundamentalist groups (to name a couple). The whole "preaching about blowing people up getting you into heaven" doesn't carry all that much weight, since the same types of people are drawn to non-religious violent movements too. It's about circumstances and the hope of structure and order.

      http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf

      The point still stands: The simple act of preaching hate does not create killers. A lot of other circumstances are necessary, and foreign "adventures" are historically a major contributing factor to spikes in terrorism. Religion is not a cause, it's a symptom.

    46. Re:They're hardly perfect by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I am sorry, but working at "addressing root problems" of violence has never worked as a method of reducing violence.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    47. Re:They're hardly perfect by steveha · · Score: 1

      Thank you for teaching me something. I had always thought that metal detectors detect iron or iron alloys.

      As the saying goes, "It ain't the things we don't know that get us into trouble, it's the things we know that ain't so."

      I apologize for upsetting you. I really don't think my offense rises to the level of "f***ing ***hole" but I do apologize.

      If I may ask, why would the iron ball escape detection? Would a bigger ball be detected? Or a lumpy ball? The Wikipedia page you cited has a picture of a large lump of gold that was detected by a metal detector; was that detected because it has an irregular shape, or because it's large, or what?

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    48. Re:They're hardly perfect by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, I can see that from the large number of people killed yearly by Christian terrorists as compared to the heyday of Christian terrorism that was the Middle Ages.

      Non-violent solutions work, they just take longer so people convince themselves they're less effective even when they are more effective over the long term.

      Then again, since you're actually willing to make the statement you just did, you're either trolling or you actually believe it. In either case, this is no longer worth any attention.

    49. Re:They're hardly perfect by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      You obviously have no idea why Europe is less violent today than it was in the Middle Ages. It has nothing to do with "addressing root problems".

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    50. Re:They're hardly perfect by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      The establishment of the agency in the first place was yet another stupid George W. Bush decision.

      http://www.tsa.gov/research/tribute/history.shtm

      The Aviation and Transportation Security Act, passed by the 107th Congress on November 19, 2001,

      At least direct your anger towards the correct people. This was passed by the Democrat congress of that time.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  10. hello tsa: by gale+the+simple · · Score: 1

    First impulse, I almost immediately forwarded the link to the friendly local radio host.

    Second impulse, now I am sure I am going to drive to New York instead of flying( I was a little on the fence because gf was complaining )

    Still,. FTG

    --
    This post is provided without warranty as to reliability, accuracy or otherwise or fitness for any particular purpose.
    1. Re:hello tsa: by Voogru · · Score: 4, Funny

      Don't worry, they will have their checkpoints soon enough so they can grope her.

    2. Re:hello tsa: by gale+the+simple · · Score: 1

      I wonder. Unless they are assisted by police can they actually stop me?

      Terminal is a tricky area, especially an international one, but a public road?:P

      Just an honest question..

      --
      This post is provided without warranty as to reliability, accuracy or otherwise or fitness for any particular purpose.
    3. Re:hello tsa: by edjs · · Score: 1

      You'll be happy to know that the Border Patrol are already on the job.

    4. Re:hello tsa: by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      SR 93, going from Kingman AZ to Vegas, already has checkpoints on each side of Hoover Dam. And they're manned by real cops, not TSA wannabes.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    5. Re:hello tsa: by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Is this a recent development, or has this been for Dam security for many years? I would imagine the latter, but it's great to be able to share information about the security apparatus, until this site gets shut down that is...

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    6. Re:hello tsa: by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      They've been in place for years.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
  11. BS? Barbara Streisand? by HiggsBison · · Score: 5, Funny

    I call BS.

    I was wondering who would bring up the Barbara Streisand Effect first.

    So now, Barbara Streisand is a Terrorist!

    --
    My other car is a 1984 Nark Avenger.
    1. Re:BS? Barbara Streisand? by martin-boundary · · Score: 4, Funny

      Oh yes, didn't you know? Between gigs, she flies her pink six-wheeled Ford to some island in the Pacific, where she sips Pernod by the pool, and launches rocket planes with tiny puppet vigilantes in them who terrorise world governments and bring Freedom to their asses.

    2. Re:BS? Barbara Streisand? by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Funny

      Gee, you notice that now? I heard her sing, that was proof enough!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:BS? Barbara Streisand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freedom to their asses?

      How will the donkeys and horses feel about that?

    4. Re:BS? Barbara Streisand? by dgr73 · · Score: 1

      Oh yes, didn't you know? Between gigs, she flies her pink six-wheeled Ford to some island in the Pacific, where she sips Pernod by the pool, and launches rocket planes with tiny puppet vigilantes in them who terrorise world governments and bring Freedom to their asses.

      Not to mention the occasional cameos as a robotic destroyer of small Colorado towns.

    5. Re:BS? Barbara Streisand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was wondering who would bring up the Barbara Streisand Effect first.

      So now, Barbara Streisand is a Terrorist!

      She is if the President says she is.

    6. Re:BS? Barbara Streisand? by Jon_S · · Score: 1

      Pink six-wheeled vehicle? Wasn't that Penelope from the "Thunderbirds"?

    7. Re:BS? Barbara Streisand? by xenoc_1 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the occasional cameos as a robotic destroyer of small Colorado towns.

      You mean this was really her?

  12. ask Thomas Drake, Stephen Kim, by decora · · Score: 2

    Shamai Leibowitz, Jeffrey Sterling, Siobhan Gorman, Diane Roark, and Jesselyn Radack.

  13. have you read The Interrogators by decora · · Score: 4, Interesting

    because thats pretty much what happened in Afghanistan in 2002, and how we got people like Khalid Sheik Mohammad put in the same facility with random teenagers and goat herders.

  14. Nothing to see here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Move along citizen before we grope you.

    1. Re:Nothing to see here by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Oh yes please! If I didn't fly, I wouldn't have any sex life anymore!

      (just a note: TSA goons do NOT like that phrase...)

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  15. can't you also make plastic shivs? by decora · · Score: 1

    i mean dont prisoners make plastic weapons all the time out of toothbrushes and stuff?

    1. Re:can't you also make plastic shivs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can just break a CD in half and you've got yourself a pretty nice blade. But they don't really care so this is all academic.

    2. Re:can't you also make plastic shivs? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Hush! If they find out that you could cut and break pretty much anything including PCBs to create sharp edges, you won't be allowed to take ANYTHING with you that makes the noise level from engines, passengers and announcements bearable!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:can't you also make plastic shivs? by Fjandr · · Score: 3, Informative

      The hell with improvising. High quality polymer weapons are cheap.

      http://www.coldsteel.com/nightshadeseries.html

    4. Re:can't you also make plastic shivs? by Coren22 · · Score: 1
      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  16. Where is the text? by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm interested to see the text of this email. It's hard to judge just how egregious this behavior is without seeing the actual text.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  17. Not Surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I recently went through a major southeast U.S. airport. When I stated my desire to opt out of the millimeter scanner, the TSA agent tried to convince me otherwise. When I stated my desire to opt out again, she deadpan "joked" it is $20 extra screening fee for a pat down (but relented after a further exchange). I would not be surprised if supervisors suggested their agents try that to discourage as many people from opting out as possible to make the numbers look better in their favor.

    1. Re:Not Surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I stated my desire to opt out of the millimeter scanner, the TSA agent tried to convince me otherwise. When I stated my desire to opt out again, she deadpan "joked" it is $20 extra screening fee for a pat down (but relented after a further exchange).

      So the price she wanted to charge you for being forced to grope at your sorry body is $20. Maybe if you were hot, maybe she'd pay you $20...

    2. Re:Not Surprised by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And maybe if she was hot, 20 bucks wouldn't be that bad an offer.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Not Surprised by waferbuster · · Score: 2

      Last month I flew thru LAX. Since I had a 4 hour layover before my flight to Hong Kong, I decided to decline the scan. The TSA herder made me repeat it a couple of times, and then loudly called out for a "male pat-down." There was a young lady behind me in line. She watched me waiting for my escort to the patdown area, and exclaimed that she didn't know opt-out was an option and that she wanted to opt-out too!

      Oh, and the TSA guy who showed up to do my pat-down was very professional about it. At first he took his cue from the herder, and was sounding as if I were doing something suspicious. After chatting for a minute, he relaxed and just did the frisk and sent me on my way.

      --
      I'm an individual! Just like everyone else!
    4. Re:Not Surprised by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      A hot TSA agent is like a cold blue-giant star. It just doesn't happen.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    5. Re:Not Surprised by dkf · · Score: 1

      A hot TSA agent is like a cold blue-giant star. It just doesn't happen.

      It depends on what level the AC is set to. Some airports are really annoyingly warm, especially in summer, but spring and autumn are worse because then I'm likely to have warm clothing with me (I needed it when I left home and can't put it in my luggage until I get to my final destination).

      Oh, you meant the other meaning of "hot". Never mind.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    6. Re:Not Surprised by babymac · · Score: 1

      Austin, TX - That's the only airport where I've been given a hard time for declining a virtual strip search. I just barely dodged Atlanta's TSA scanners yesterday and I was glad. I had a bit of gasoline on my hand from filling up my rental car. I didn't want the pat down swabs to test positive for "explosives."

      --
      "War makes me sad." - Me
    7. Re:Not Surprised by babymac · · Score: 1

      Actually, the TSA girls in San Juan, Puerto Rico were quite decent looking.

      --
      "War makes me sad." - Me
    8. Re:Not Surprised by darniil · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I had a similar situation in Ontario, California.

      The TSA female told me it was a $25 fee for opting out. I told her, "That's fine. You can go ahead and collect it from the bag-check fee I had to pay to check my bag." She laughed again, "That'll be another $25 for being smart." I laughed back, "That's fine. I won't have to pay, since I'm not smart."

      She let it drop after that, either because she was out-witted or because my frisker was ready. Not sure which.

  18. FoxNews is covering the story by McGruber · · Score: 5, Informative
    1. Re:FoxNews is covering the story by artor3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Obama is president, which means government is bad. As soon as a Republican is in the White House, government will go back to being good.

      That is, according to Fox.

    2. Re:FoxNews is covering the story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May be they let Faux News covered it so that people would not think of it seriously.

      Captcha secret word of the day: fascism

    3. Re:FoxNews is covering the story by EatAtJoes · · Score: 1

      The so-called "Liberal" media (ie mainstream non-crazy-right) has given the Obama admin a big pass on this whole thing. When the TSA first rolled out the Rapiscan machines, only Fox et al were making a stink. Likewise, Repubs in congress were quite vocal whilst Demos were meek.

      Liberals really do suck. Let's not forget it was Repubs who voted against the bank bailout. Demos are as sold-out as it gets.

    4. Re:FoxNews is covering the story by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      The TSA also holds some interest as they could form a union and work for the gov.
      Add in some charming foreign expert offering to sell profiling classes and pulling people aside to small rooms vs the US touch and glow system.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    5. Re:FoxNews is covering the story by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Let's not forget it was Repubs who voted against the bank bailout.

      I don't like either side, but the bailout numbers are not nearly so one-sided as you claim. 46% of Republicans voted in support of the bailout legislation, and Bush signed it into law.

      ---------

      TARP votes:

      Yea
      Democratic: 172
      Republican: 91

      Nay
      Democratic 63
      Republican: 108

    6. Re:FoxNews is covering the story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obama is president, which means government is bad. As soon as a Republican is in the White House, government will go back to being good.

      That is, according to Fox.

      I guess that also explains whttp://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/03/08/2241229/tsa-warning-media-about-reporting-on-body-scanner-failures#hy "Fast and Furious" and Solandra get hardly any critical press time when a Democrat is president in every other "legitimate" outlet.

    7. Re:FoxNews is covering the story by discord5 · · Score: 1

      FoxNews is covering the story:

      I'm impressed.

      Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day

  19. TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by fnj · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The TSA needs to be disbanded at once with prejudice. It is nothing but kabuki theater masking fascism. It has no place in the America of our founders.

    1. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by ks*nut · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The America of our founders? You mean the one that practised slavery and genocide. Is that the wonderful past you are referring to? Be careful what you base your opposition to TSA on.

    2. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? The fact that you think they did a few things wrong does not mean that everything they did was wrong. You might not have meant that, but privacy has been found to be very important (especially against corrupt governments and to individuals).

    3. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The TSA needs to be disbanded at once with prejudice. It is nothing but kabuki theater masking fascism. It has no place in the America of our founders.

      Close, but not quite. Yes, the TSA has no reason to exist. Yes, "airport security" is definitely kabuki theater. But, no, it is not intended to mask fascism, quite the opposite.. It sends an extremely clear fascist message to the population: "Welcome to the America of today. Please jump through these pointless hoops to demonstrate your understanding that we are in charge. Thank you, sir, and have a nice day."

    4. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      It is nothing but kabuki theater

      Closer to bukkake, by most accounts.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    5. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I think you got this wrong.

      I doubt that anyone wishes you a nice day with that...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The America of your founders is long gone.

    7. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      It is nothing but kabuki theater

      Closer to bukkake, by most accounts.

      Oh, come on.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    8. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by houghi · · Score: 1

      It has no place in the America of our founders.

      Well, it isn't there in the America of the founders. It is there in the America of you.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    9. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      It has no place in the America of our founders.

      Your founders were terrorists, just like that Guy Fawkes fellow.
      Sincerely,

      England

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    10. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      It has no place in the America of our founders.

      Neither does a country where women and people of african american people having the vote or being allowed to run for presidency....

      Times change. Argue why it has not place in the America of your children -- this will have more bearing on reality.

    11. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      er... s/american people/american descent/

    12. Re:TSA needs to be disbanded with prejudice by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Shoot. You win.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  20. Ready? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't we just start killing these bastards yet?

    1. Re:Ready? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The answer is completely contingent upon one's willingness to accept the consequences...which consequences are you more concerned about?

  21. TSA perversion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So these scanners are really just for checking out people they wanna see naked since they can't actually detect weapons. Way to waste more money America. Why not buy a million diamond encrusted toilets next? Idiots

    1. Re:TSA perversion by thechemic · · Score: 2

      Because the TSA workers would steal them.

      --
      Let's make like a bird... and get the flock outta here.
    2. Re:TSA perversion by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Why not buy a million diamond encrusted toilets next? Idiots

      I used to have one, but it wasn't very comfortable.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re:TSA perversion by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the builder didn't set the diamonds correctly as the table of the gem should be facing out for maximum brilliance.

      --
      Time to offend someone
  22. Re:False Modesty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hello, fellow time traveller. Care to share your secrets?

  23. It is not about the truth it is about perception by cygtoad · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The TSA doesn't care if the backscatter scanner doesn't detect contraband. They don't even care if the terrorists know it. They don't want the general public at large knowing it because this kind of thing really messes up the security theater magic act. They also don't want to answer the accusations of exposing passengers to radiation for a less than perfect technology.

    I saw a sign in the airport las weekend. "The backscatter scanner exposes you the same amount of radiation as you receive in two minutes in the airplane". Yeah but think of it this way; standing on a beach on a sunny day would you accept someone telling you that you were going to get a sun blast equal to two minutes in the sun in two seconds? Radiation doesn't always hurt bit it is always harmful to your DNA. There is a reason heath care providers put a limit on the number of X-rays you get in year.

  24. No problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just tell the reporters that the story would hurt Obama and they'll clam up.

  25. I have an easier fix by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Use the fucking metal detectors that are already there! They work great. They'll pick up any gun, even a small one. No, there is no gun that has no metal in it (nor bullets). What's more metal detectors are 100% within the range of TSA intelligence to use: Green = person ok, go through. Red + beep = person not ok. Even the untrained morons in the TSA can deal with that. The scanners though, they require knowledge an interpretation. You are presented with an image and you have to interpret it.

    That is why so many people get sent for patdowns. Not because they found something but because they can't tell what they fuck they are looking at. They can't interpret the results.

    The answer is in what they already have. Metal detectors work great. There's a reason why people like, say, the Secret Service uses metal detectors, and not these scanners.

    1. Re:I have an easier fix by waferbuster · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sigh. Have you ever held a glock? What material do you suppose the slide (you know, that thingy on the top that goes back and forth each time it goes bang) is made of? That's right... Steel. Which is a metal. How about the barrel? Oh yeah, that's steel too. Recoil spring? I'll give you a hint... steel. Should I go on?

      But you're half right... the frame is made of... polymer. A fancy name for plastic. So if you separated the slide from the frame, and took all the little movable metal parts out of the frame, then the frame probably wouldn't set off the metal detector (the little metal inserts molded into the frame are probably too small to set off the walk-thru metal detector).
      Summary: Glocks (and all other mainstream guns) have major parts made of metal. More metal than a belt buckle. If a beltbuckle sets of the metal detector, so will a gun. Even a glock.

      http://xkcd.com/386/

      --
      I'm an individual! Just like everyone else!
    2. Re:I have an easier fix by spasm · · Score: 4, Informative

      "The Glock 23 has no metal parts"

      Umm.. "The Glock's frame, magazine body and several other components are made from a high-strength nylon-based polymer invented by Gaston Glock and called Polymer 2.[34] .. The injection molded frame contains 4 hardened steel guide rails for the slide: two at the rear of the frame, and the remaining pair above and in front of the trigger guard. .. The frame houses the locking block, which is an investment casting that engages a 45 camming surface on the barrel's lower camming lug. It is retained in the frame by a steel axis pin that holds the trigger and slide catch. .. A spring-loaded sheet metal pressing serves as the slide catch, which is secured from unintentional manipulation by a raised guard molded into the frame."

    3. Re:I have an easier fix by heypete · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Glock 23 has no metal parts in it (as the most famous - You can actually get at least half-a-dozen polymer frames today, in a variety of poly chambers and actions). Poly casings hit the mainstream within the last few years (though they still cost a bit more); Hand-load with a properly sized ceramic bullet, and you have fully live firearm without a scrap of metal in it.

      Say what? The Glock 23 certainly is made of metal, as are all Glock pistols. The barrel, slide, and much of the internal mechanisms are steel and comprise about 80% of the gun's mass. It is certainly detectable by airport metal detectors.

      The plastic parts show up clearly on airport x-ray baggage scanners. The plastic parts and magazines have a fair bit of metal in them as well for strengthening (and the metal rails on the frame for the slide to move on) and would set off metal detectors.

      There's nothing special about the Glock 23: it's simply the mid-sized model chambered in .40 S&W. I have owned it's 9mm counterpart, the Glock 19, and the subcompact 9mm Glock 26 and can confirm that both the 9mm and .40 S&W models have considerable amounts of metal.

    4. Re:I have an easier fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lets see.. Glock 23. Its somewhere in the 20s oz range unloaded. It has... an all steel slide. all metal (chrome lined!) barrel. A steel subframe that sits inside the polymer frame (and actually bears the bulk of the stress of the recoiling slide). A steel striker. A handful of various springs in different strengths. Plus the metal transfer bar and whatnot in the trigger assembly.

      And.. even if we were looking at a polymer casing and bullet, there's still a metal primer.

      It a glock had no metal in it, you'd have... an odd shaped piece of plastic that (kind of) fits in your hand.

    5. Re:I have an easier fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      opposed to the body scanners, but I can get several airplane destroying things past metal detectors that aren't guns. most explosives won't show up.

    6. Re:I have an easier fix by RedShoeRider · · Score: 1

      Die Hard 2 isn't a great place to get your firearms information from.

      Yes, there are at least half a dozen polymer frame pistols on the market (Glock, the xD family from Smith, etc...). Every single one of them has a steel slide. Every single one has a steel barrel. Read up on the entire Glock family....not one has anything but a steel barrel and slide, as there are not mainstream polymers that can take the beating. We'll ignore the springs, screws, firing pin, and a bunch of other parts that are metal and couldn't reasonably be replaced with anything else.

      --

      Chris Knight is my hero.

    7. Re:I have an easier fix by sootman · · Score: 1

      Die Hard 2 was not a documentary. Every pistol Glock makes has about a POUND of metal, not counting ammo.

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    8. Re:I have an easier fix by blueforce · · Score: 1

      Yeah. That. And "properly sized ceramic bullet...without a scrap of metal in it" What are you replacing the brass case with, again?

      --
      If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
    9. Re:I have an easier fix by waferbuster · · Score: 1

      On your other comment about the "properly sized ceramic bullet:"
      1. Bullets are made of soft materials (such as copper or lead). This material must be softer than the material of the barrel, so that the bullet material deforms as it enters the rifled portion of the barrel. This provides a seal around the perimeter of the bullet, and minimizes gasses leaking between the bullet and the barrel. The bullet deformation to match the rifling is what causes the bullet to rotate (imparting the spin, which stabilizes the bullet in flight).
      2. Ceramic is a very hard, very brittle material. It does *not* deform. If you tried to force a ceramic bullet through a rifled barrel, you'd get broken shards out the muzzle. Ceramic is much harder than steel, so you'd destroy the barrel almost immediately.

      Having said that, it's possible to use a ceramic bullet by using a sabot round. http://www.sabotreloadingpro.com/ The sabot acts as a buffer between the (undersized) bullet and the barrel, preventing bullet to barrel contact. Of course, using a sabot allows using pretty much anything as a 'bullet'.

      --
      I'm an individual! Just like everyone else!
  26. who by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    cares about TSA?

  27. Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Brad1138 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Could he have ever imagined the repercussions of his attack. On so many levels, from more government ie: the dept of Home land security, to the ridiculousness of what we have to go through to fly. The whole country (or at least government) running around worrying about terrorists and the incredible expense it incurs. Our image around the world.... It goes on and on. He single-handedly turned the the U.S. into a near bankrupt, joke.

    --
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    1. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Lehk228 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      didn't you listen to Bush.

      they hate us for our freedoms

      if we eliminate all our freedoms they won't hate us anymore

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    2. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Animats · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Could he have ever imagined the repercussions of his attack?

      He did. Read "bin Laden: The Man Who Declared War on America". This was written before 9/11, and includes many of bin Laden's own comments. He recognized that America was too strong to take down, and had to be weakened internally first. His plan was to destroy America's moral authority in the world. He wanted a more oppressive and heavy-handed America, to help build hate and opposition in the rest of the world. That was the objective of his terrorism.

      He succeeded.

      It's hard to remember now, but just before 9/11, the US didn't have any serious enemies. The big players, Russia, China, Japan, and the European Union, were on good terms with the US. The Middle East was intimidated, but reassured by the fact that, once the US was finished liberating Kuwait, all the US troops packed up and went home.

      If the US had simply focused on cleaning up the mess and finding bin Laden, we would have been far better off.

    3. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by oodaloop · · Score: 1

      If the US had simply focused on cleaning up the mess and finding bin Laden

      Yeah, if only we had spent the last 10 years in Afghanistan hunting down Al Qaeda and the Taliban, killing bin Laden's lieutenants, tracking sources, and trying to find bin Laden through an extensive network of deep cover operatives in Pakistan. Good idea.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    4. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, if only we had spent the last 10 years in Afghanistan hunting down Al Qaeda and the Taliban, killing bin Laden's lieutenants, tracking sources, and trying to find bin Laden through an extensive network of deep cover operatives in Pakistan. Good idea.

      Instead, we pulled much of the manpower out of Afghanistan to overthrow one of the more secular governments in the middle east, wasting whatever international sympathy we might have garnered on some kind of warped do-it-better-than-Daddy fiasco. Instead of focusing on Al Qaeda, we spent billions installing farcical tools to prevent an attack that broke the policies that allowed it to happen, dropped a few billion more trying to install keyloggers on the internet, and generally acting like children who'd had their lollipop stolen.

    5. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Brad1138 · · Score: 2

      I wonder if it is even possible for the U.S. to return to a "pre 9/11" state/status. I loved my country back then, now, not so much. It saddens me greatly.

      --
      If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    6. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      I'd say Mission Accomplished.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's actually pretty accurate.

      In the 90s of the last century, the US were the big winner of the cold war. The Soviet Union folded and Russia snuggled up with the US. Former East Bloc countries in Europe trampled over each other in the desperate attempt to be the first to get a foot into NATO, China was pretty happy to have a business partner, India was happy to be an outsourcing partner, the Middle East was ok with the US, after all the only country there the US smacked about was the one that didn't want to create an Islamic nation, in general, the only countries that weren't in love with the US were North Korea and Cuba. And, bluntly, who gives half a crap about them? And the rest was pretty swell too, the industry powerhorse of the world, the pinnacle of freedom and opportunity, everyone's darling. For real.

      Now, twenty years later, the US are in a crisis, nationally and internationally. Debt skyrockets because of military expenses, industry struggles and China is laughing their ass off while shipping cheap crap over, internationally the US are seen as the schoolyard bully that everyone only plays nice with because they fear to be the next to get smacked about... The US sure went a long way downhill.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Actually, all Osama did was write a few checks to the guys who pulled off 9-11.

      Surprisingly, his checks didn't bounce for a change like they did when he was trying to help finance the Mujahadeem.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    9. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by SeNtM · · Score: 1

      Apparently you forgot about the trillion dollars Bush spent on a fictitious war...

      My favorite quote use to be the one engraved on Ellis Island, paraphrasing, those who sacrifice security for freedom deserve neither.

      Now it is the Bush quote, "There ought to be limits to freedom."

      The only problem with Obama is that he keeps trying to rule from the middle...he needs to step more to one side, and he will be a great President.

      --
      "There ought to be limits to freedom." -George W. Bush
    10. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by SeNtM · · Score: 1

      Full disclosure. I just took an ambien 15 minutes ago, and read the OP as Obama not Osama. Fortunately, I think my point still stands.

      --
      "There ought to be limits to freedom." -George W. Bush
    11. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      The problem is, if you have no enemies, you have no reason to spend like a madman on defense. No worries, though, if the US doesn't have an enemy, they'll invent one. Fidel? Retired. Raul? Should be retired. Khadaffi? Out of power. bin Laden? Dead. Saddam? Also dead. Kim? Dead. Mao? Dead. Stalin? Dead. Hitler? Dead. Tojo? Dead. Khruschev? Dead. Kholmeni? Dead. And yeah, they even killed Che. All we have now is a bunch of third-stringers the media whips up to be 'the most evil man since $TAKEYOURPICK'. Funny how nobody ever heard of them in the US until their second-string frontman died.

      Current NeoCon theory is, we can hold the terrorrorrorrists at bay only as long as we maintain constant vigilance. They'll attack the instant we let down our guard. They said it about the Soviets. Then the Soviets fell. Now the $EVILENEMY are the fundy Islamics. We must never let down our guard or we'll have to worship God at a mosque. So goes the litany. So say we all. Now get out there with the rest of the sheeple and chant 'America!! FUCK YEAH!! ' for the next 6 hours at the rally.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    12. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he was referring to GitMo and Iraq. You know, the stuff that the US historically has considered to be war crimes.

    13. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Debt skyrockets because of military expenses

      The past ten years of military operations in the Middle East cost less than the second "stimulus".

      Also, the entitlements in the USA are totally boned, and Obamacare isn't even fully active yet and it is already adding to the debt (it was promised to reduce the debt by a small amount, but it's not even breaking even, it's costing money now).

      Due to demographics and the automatic increases built into the system, Medicare and Social Security are set to cost more than the entire tax revenue of the US government within a couple decades. (That's why the Ryan plan was to move from "when you need help you get whatever you need" to "here is a chunk of money you will get every year, use it to buy insurance on the free market". In other words, move from "defined benefit" to "defined contribution". People howled that this was horrible, but letting the system go broke is much more horrible.)

      And all the state governments and city governments going broke right now? They weren't spending on military stuff. A lot of that was crazy pension benefits.

      industry struggles and China is laughing their ass off

      It is amusing that you think there is some sort of cause-and-effect relationship between the Middle East and the effect of Chinese exports. China wants money and power, and the current situation is basically according to their plans from all along. Absent the wars, nothing would be different here.

      internationally the US are seen as the schoolyard bully that everyone only plays nice with because they fear to be the next to get smacked about...

      I call BS. Everyone knows the US is overextended, and Iran wouldn't be acting like it is if it thought the US would actually smack it about. The battle for hearts and minds in Iraq was won years ago, when the ordinary people started telling the American soldiers where the terrorists were hiding. The ordinary Iraqi doesn't hate the US, did you see the photos of the purple fingers of the people who voted? (And voting meant you might get blown up by a suicide bomber, and yet they went and voted. They have bigger stones than I do.)

    14. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you missed the word "simply".

    15. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      didn't you listen to Obama

      as soon as Obama was elected, they don't hate us, they love us now

      and Iran doesn't have anything to burn for electricity so they want nukes purely for peaceful purposes

    16. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Inda · · Score: 1

      Didn't I read this exact comment last week?

      Didn't it get a +5 Funny?

      I love Slashdot.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    17. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by lwriemen · · Score: 1

      Read some Noam Chomsky or Howard Zinn. The USA hasn't ever been a lovable country; the abuses were just better hidden before the internet. I'm not saying it's a bad place to live, but the idea that it was somehow less imperialistic or friendly towards personal freedom "pre 9/11" is laughable.

    18. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      If the US had simply focused on cleaning up the mess and finding bin Laden

      Yeah, if only we had spent the last 10 years in Afghanistan hunting down Al Qaeda and the Taliban, killing bin Laden's lieutenants, tracking sources, and trying to find bin Laden through an extensive network of deep cover operatives in Pakistan. Good idea.

      Extremely good idea. Note the "simply" -- the US did a LOT more than just that, supposedly in response to 9/11. The bits surrounding Iraq make almost no sense, and the policies forced down the throats of allied nations generated a LOT of hate and distrust globally.

    19. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

      Actually, we left troops in Saudi Arabia, which was obl's stated reason for the 9/11 attacks.

    20. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Brad1138 · · Score: 1

      What grave did you think Obama was laughing in?

      --
      If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    21. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      I recall some now-prescient dialog from The Matrix, Morpheus was telling Neo about the previous creations and that they didn't work; that the setting of 1999 was the height of human civilization. I think I'll rewatch it this weekend, and see what other possible anachronisms there might be.

      Relevant to this thread, several weeks ago someone here posted that watching Airplane 2 again is a weird experience, because they have airport security agents looking at topless women on screens, which was humor at the time because it could never happen here... From the topic (reporter being "cautioned"), it would seem a movie showing what the TSA are currently doing would be banned.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    22. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Also, the entitlements in the USA are totally boned, and Obamacare isn't even fully active yet and it is already adding to the debt (it was promised to reduce the debt by a small amount, but it's not even breaking even, it's costing money now).

      I'm considering running for government, on a physics-based platform. Yeah, I know it's as likely as Ron Paul.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    23. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      internationally the US are seen as the schoolyard bully that everyone only plays nice with because they fear to be the next to get smacked about... The US sure went a long way downhill.

      I'm not sure the reality changed -- just the perception. Being offered a loan from the IMF or World Bank has always been something to run away from...

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    24. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      "So say we all" was a very insightful choice for their "amen": it reflects not the actual reality, but instead the collective consciousness.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    25. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by SeNtM · · Score: 1

      I don't know...I plead Ambien.

      You know, my phone has a "drunk texting" feature...Whose purpose is to prevent one from shooting off damaging text messages after one-to-many drinks. I think /. should have a similar feature for somnolence-posting. We may find it more of an epidemic in these forums than we are all ready to admit.

      --
      "There ought to be limits to freedom." -George W. Bush
    26. Re:Osama must be laughing in his grave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. Iran hated the US already, latin america as well, for helping/causing the dictatorships in the south cone.

  28. Known issue by TankSpanker04 · · Score: 2

    TSA is just pissed someone exposed a known design flaw in the hardware they use and now they're trying to minimize public knowledge of it.

  29. Re:False Modesty by Lehk228 · · Score: 2

    1) not wanting to bow to authoritarian pigs

    2) not wanting to die of skin cancer

    --
    Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  30. call them what they are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They are not body scanners. They are xray scanners. The only reason they call them 'body scanners' is to confuse people, because people know what xrays are, and people know that xrays are dangerous. But what is a body scanner? People don't know. Call it what it is. A dangerous xray machine that is being irresponsibly used on the public for the enrichment of the private companies OSI and Rapiscan.

    1. Re:call them what they are by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Aren't most of the scanners gamma ray backscatter scanners, not x-ray scanners?

      The reason they don't call them x-ray scanners is the same reason checkout scanners aren't called laser scanners -- when they were put in, people associated lasers with star wars-style weapons, not with optical recognition. Similarly, most of these body scanners work by emitting an extremely low dose of gamma rays and then monitoring the backscatter response -- completely different from the (rightly) demonized x-ray machines that blasted the entire area with x-ray radiation and took a negative of the stuff that got through.

      I agree: call it what it is... but don't try to mislead people based on preconceived perceptions of similarly named equipment.

      There's enough problems with how the TSA operates without throwing in misinformation that gets people dismissing ALL the complaints.

  31. Re:False Modesty by metacell · · Score: 1

    Perhaps people are just upset about incompetence and having their freedoms violated?

  32. Threat by PPH · · Score: 1

    at least one reporter has been 'strongly cautioned' by TSA spokeswoman Sari Koshetz not to cover the story.

    Or else what? They'll be put on the no fly list? Singled out for additional screening at airports? So then TSA procedures are really just some sort of punishment or retribution. Misbehave and they'll have the guy with the fat fingers do your next cavity search.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  33. Re:False Modesty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why on earth should that be normal?

  34. More on the blades by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Zirconium of very close to the same compostion as the PSZ (partially stabilised zirconium) knives is used as the filter on a lot of scientific x-ray equipment (eg. x-ray diffraction). By very close I mean a small fraction of 1%. It wouldn't be used for that purpose if it significantly blocked x-rays so it's unlikely to show up in an image.
    If it's good enough for top sushi chefs to use to cut up a big tuna then it's definitely good enough for a weapon.
    I've been told after I got some glass fragments in my elbow that glass doesn't show up on medical x-rays, so if that's true then the "Snow Crash" glass knife plot would also defeat x-ray scanners. If it isn't true there was a lot of poking around with long sharp needles for nothing.

  35. Emperor's new clothes... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Don't you dare even think about telling the Emperor that his new clothes are bogus and that he's actually stark raving naked... or else you'll get your head chopped off.

  36. How to stop the TSA: Just say no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Want to stop the TSA from ever groping another child (or, for that matter, you)? Easy. Let me tell you a little secret: The TSA agents do not have police powers . That's right, they cannot arrest you. They may threaten to do so, but if they actually want you arrested they have to call a real cop. A cop from the jurisdiction in which the airport is located.

    So here's how the revolution will work: If even a half dozen people a day refuse to be searched or groped at a major airport, the TSA will have to call the local police, and ask them to arrest the "violators". The first interesting question is, will the real cops co-operate and arrest you? The second question is, if they arrest you, what will be the charges? If the local police do arrest you and think of some charges that might stick, will the local D.A., who is, after all, a politician, want to prosecute you? I doubt it; a string of convictions against hapless travelers who bravely stood up the the Federal tyranny will get him very few votes in the next election.

    People don't seem to realize just how shaky this whole airport TSA tyranny is: it ultimately rests on the threat that local authorities will be willing to deal with people who give the TSA the finger, yet it is not in the interest of those local authorities to help the TSA. Quite the opposite. You might want to pick the target jurisdiction carefully. I would avoid Cook county (Chicago), for example. Because the first few people to do this will probably get arrested and spend a night in jail, you will want to research local attitudes and jail conditions. After the first dozen or so, the local D.A. will almost certainly decide to put a halt to the spectacle, and declare that he will no longer do the TSA's dirty work for them.

    Let me be very clear on this: I am not suggesting that anyone do anything illegal. It's not illegal to insist that the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution be observed. Be polite to the cops, do not give them any reason to arrest you on their own, or to pile on charges (like resisting arrest). It would be good if someone nearby happened to have a video of the arrest.

    1. Re:How to stop the TSA: Just say no by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 2

      In every major airport I've been through, the airport police are right there at the screening area. Many airports actually have their own police jurisdiction.

      --

      Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    2. Re:How to stop the TSA: Just say no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not the case at DFW. The TSA threatened me with "calling the police". I told them to go ahead...I would prefer dealing with a real police officer. The cop that arrived was very laid back, and I could tell he wasn't crazy about being called in on this. What do you mean by "own jurisdictions"? Are you saying they have their own police, courts, and jails? For an airport? I kinda doubt it. A local government may decide to create a special police force dedicated to airport security, much as many big cities have special transit cops to patrol the subway. That's an unimportant detail. The GP's point stands: if even half a dozen Americans found their own balls on any given day instead of asking the nice TSA officer to do it for them, the TSA would be gone (at least in its present idiotic form). So if you object to this treatment, either stop your whining or do something about it.

    3. Re:How to stop the TSA: Just say no by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The first interesting question is, will the real cops co-operate and arrest you?

      Yes, yes they will.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:How to stop the TSA: Just say no by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Who cares if the TSA can arrest you? As long as they can deny you access to your flight they have alll the power they need.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    5. Re:How to stop the TSA: Just say no by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      That sounds like missing the point: he then described how the house of cards can be defeated. You're right, for a limited time, they have all the power they need. That time is short.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    6. Re:How to stop the TSA: Just say no by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      I don't think I'm missing the point. He's saying that if the local authorities won't cooperate with the TSA then the TSA won't have any power. But that's not true since, as I pointed out, the TSA will still have the ability to keep you from your flight. That is enough of a cudgel to keep people complying with their demands, even without the threat of arrest.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  37. What about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ceramic and carbon composite weapons? Do these "enhanced scanners" detect these sort of things? I bet dogs trained to detect explosives would be less expensive and more effective.

    The TSA, bringing better targets to terrorists! Instead of blowing up the plane, hit the huge lines at the TSA checkpoint!

  38. Responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I didn't make him fall down the elevator shaft. I merely pointed out in a public forum that pressing the coke machine buttons all at once would cause an electromagnetic pulse that would open the elevator doors. It's not my responsibility to keep the doors closed. You should thank me for publicizing this weakness. "

    1. Re:Responsibility by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Dude, everyone who'd want to push anyone down the elevator shaft already knows it.

      The only thing that could happen if it becomes public knowledge is that people know to stay away from elevator shafts when someone's operating the coke machine.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  39. Didn't Adam Savage have a similar story? by mjensen · · Score: 1

    I thought he had some saw blades in a cylinder on the inside of his coat.

  40. Embarrassing items by bastian74 · · Score: 0

    My girlfriend had a Hitachi Magic wand with curved g-spotter add-on attached. The TSA guy flagged it on the xray (probably because it had a gun silhouette due to the g-spotter) and he pulls it out of the bag. She says OMG. He asks "What is this?" to which she replies "A massager" - and he said "What's it for?" - I don't think she had an answer. At this point I think he knew what he was holding - and it clearly hadn't been washed either! I know gross. Anyways he had to re-run it through the x-ray machine all by itself in front of a crowded line at the checkpoint. He grabbed it as it came out of the xray machine, gave it to her and said you can go.

    1. Re:Embarrassing items by Lehk228 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      > and it clearly hadn't been washed either

      your girlfriend is a nasty ho

      > My girlfriend had a Hitachi Magic wand with curved g-spotter add-on attached.

      and you can't satisfy her in bed

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    2. Re:Embarrassing items by bastian74 · · Score: 2

      You sound boring and inexperienced.

  41. Re:Easy fix? OPT OUT! by Peter+Simpson · · Score: 2

    I'm also worried about the amount of radiation my member is being exposed to!
    OK...but I am concerned that these machines are essentially operated by untrained people who have no concern at all for the safety of those passing through them. The machines themselves were produced for "national security" and as such were most likely granted all kinds of waivers to radiation safety regulations. I won't go through them and I don't trust TSA to be doing any kind of regular checks or maintenance on them, except when they fail to show an image.

  42. Damn those puppet vigilantes! by daninaustin · · Score: 2

    Damn them all to hell! :)

  43. Shut the fuck up you stupid karma whore. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    You know damn well what he meant.

  44. Maybe I'm missing something... by webdog314 · · Score: 1

    Having never been in one of these things, and assuming I understand the exploit correctly, couldn't you just have people randomly stand either directly forward, or at a 45 degree angle? If you don't know which position you are going to get, you can't place an object so that it's hidden, yes? A simple change to procedure and problem solved.

  45. What I'm wondering is... by RPGillespie · · Score: 0

    Why can't you scan people twice at two different angles (a la mugshots)? Then any weapons strapped to the side of the person will be revealed.

    1. Re:What I'm wondering is... by Fnord666 · · Score: 2

      Why can't you scan people twice at two different angles (a la mugshots)? Then any weapons strapped to the side of the person will be revealed.

      Because people are already concerned about the amount of exposure they are getting from one scan, let alone two.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    2. Re:What I'm wondering is... by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Because people are already concerned about the amount of exposure they are getting from one scan, let alone two.

      People are concerned about anything you can convince them to be concerned about. For lawmakers, it's terrorists. For Slashdot commenters, it's trivially small amounts of radiation. For the general public, it's anything that makes a good image and story on the TV news.

  46. Re:False Modesty by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Oh, that's easy to explain. There are a few factors that get the people's panties in a knot.

    First, it's the whole security theater. A system that is proven to be flawed to the point of being utterly and completely useless, but expensive. And we have to foot that bill. We have to pay for those scanners, the TSA goons, the whole theater and its cast and crew. And we don't even like the show one bit, it's tedious and they keep playing the same bit for a decade. Even Cats was boring after that long.

    Second, the threat of cancer. Or rather, the fact that we don't get to hear whether there is a threat. Why not? Why are we being subjected to a procedure that is flawed and not able to accomplish its intended goal, while at the same time being possibly dangerous to your health? See, people could and would accept it if there was a benefit. We know that we could die in a car crash, still we drive with cars. The good (being able to get from A to B fast) outweighs the bad (the chance of dying because some drunk idiot hits my car). This is not the case here. There is no good (intended goal not being met) while there might be a bad (threat of cancer).

    Third, the time loss. When I was young (yeah, get offa my lawn) it was enough to get to the airport about 30 minutes before your flight, at least if it was a domestic flight. Today you better get there a few hours early. And if you plan to go international, consider spending the better part of your day on the airport. This is by no means in any relation to the gain. Which is essentially zero.

    This is what the rage is about. Not that we get groped. Actually, the whole point is that we'd PREFER to get groped to being scanned. But only as much as we'd prefer being shot to being crucified.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  47. But you know what does set them off? by FireFlie · · Score: 1

    Wearing a sportscoat through security. I was flagged and pulled aside because I was carrying--some sweat on my back. At the time, these things had been in operation for about a day. They security guy informed me that it was probably just a bit of sweat it detected (I guess he had seen the same thing happen before?). Nice to know that if sweaty terrorists come into an airport that they will also be hassled.

  48. more like naked scanners trying to protect profits by Dan667 · · Score: 1

    my bet is that they knew these naked scanners where not effective all along, but rapiscan cannot keep selling these things if the word gets out.

  49. perfect solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    give everyone who boards a powerful sedative after their pass is scanned. (except for pilots and crew of course). anyone not knocked out is a terrorist who took a powerful stimulant prior to boarding, and can be tied down and blindfolded. no one would have to be afraid of terrorists or turbulence.

  50. Not exactly by shiftless · · Score: 2

    (especially given their general ineptitude, it'll probably be a naively-implemented MySQL database on an old P4

    Apparently you are too familiar with how government ineptitude works. Most likely it'll be a naively-implemented MySQL database on a brand new sparkling 128 core supercomputer, bought and paid for by the persecuted.

    1. Re:Not exactly by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It'll be MySQL running on Windows Server 2008 r2, on virtualized clusters with one VM per blade, tied in to an iSCSI SAN implemented by the highest bidder (after the deciding manager on the RFP eliminates all other bidders for lack of confidence in their ability to deliver the requirements). And yes, I've been lowest bidder on a government contract and got eliminated because the higher bidders argued it couldn't be done for as little as my bid (which it could have, but not when the massive players, EDS and the like, get in the mix). No, I'm not bitter as a businessman, but bitter as a taxpayer, knowing that, from what I've seen, most contracts go to one of the highest bidders (who goes over budget anyway and is still a preferred vendor, getting more after never having hit the budget, even with having the largest bid).

    2. Re:Not exactly by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      Close but it would more likely be implemented with MS Access not an open source solution, the rest is probably spot on though.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    3. Re:Not exactly by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I agree. This isn't just the government we're talking about (which is already inept), it's the most inept branch of government. MS Access it is. Then they can justify a massive, expensive contracting project to attempt to make Access work for such a large project (and the project will of course fail).

  51. Bummed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I long for the days where you could feel comfortable sneaking a few joints through the magnetic scanner. The terrorists have indeed won a few battles.

  52. Re:False Modesty by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

    This is by no means in any relation to the gain. Which is essentially zero.

    It's not zero, it's actually negative. These scanners make it *easier* to bring weapons on board.

  53. Re:It is not about the truth it is about perceptio by FSWKU · · Score: 1

    I saw a sign in the airport las weekend. "The backscatter scanner exposes you the same amount of radiation as you receive in two minutes in the airplane". Yeah but think of it this way; standing on a beach on a sunny day would you accept someone telling you that you were going to get a sun blast equal to two minutes in the sun in two seconds? Radiation doesn't always hurt bit it is always harmful to your DNA. There is a reason heath care providers put a limit on the number of X-rays you get in year.

    And of course should they try to placate you with such an answer, you can respond loudly with, "So you're trying to assuage my concerns by saying this thing exposes me to SIXTY TIMES more radiation than I would normally get?"

    Although I wouldn't recommend it if you have somewhere to be in any sort of hurry...

    --
    "So after all this, you make my case for me. To end this stalemate, you must die..."
  54. The Juggernaut cannot be stopped by bradley13 · · Score: 4

    I have to agree with the posters above. In the 1990s, after winning the "cold war", the US was triumphant and popular. Apparently this went to the heads of the politicians. While there was brief talk about scaling back military expenditures (since they were not necessary anymore), instead the US scaled up, and started looking for places to use that military. 9/11 was a huge boon to those who wanted to go this way, and they have taken full advantage of it. The US now spends nearly as much on its military as the entire rest of the world combined. Internationally, the US behaves like a schoolyard bully - a bully utterly convinced of his own righteousness.

    What I find saddest about this whole situation: most people I know in the USA don't have the faintest inkling of this. "Look at all the good we do." "The Iraqis should be thankful we got rid of Hussein for them." Etc.. It's really unbelievable.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
  55. Is it really minuscule ? There is doubt. by aepervius · · Score: 2

    See , apparentely when the machine were given for approval, the dose was calculated by having the dose calculated for the whole body. As if the whole body was receiving it. So the dose density per tissue would be low. But the reality is that those scanner actually deposit most of their radiation dose not in the whole body but the skin surface. So the real dose would be 2 order of magnitude than what is touted by the machine maker , for the tissue concerned. And thus increasing the risk of cancer , specifically skin cancer, much more. I have seen estimate than about 3 to 6 person would die of skin cancer due to those detector every year. Naturally this is very small, compared to the hundred of million of passenger which probably go thru them, but it is an enormous amount compared to the number of people dying of terroristic attack today in the USA (about zero).

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  56. well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone who thinks these scans are to prevent terrorism should check their heads AND their history.

  57. barn, horse, gate by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

    If TSA is worried that this is new information they need to suppress to keep it away from terrorists, that horse may have left the barn years ago.

    Isn't closing the gate behind the horse what the TSA was created for?

    Heh. Today's Slashdot cookie: "The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison"

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:barn, horse, gate by Custard+Horse · · Score: 1

      ..that horse may have left the barn years ago.

      presumably the body scanners should have detected this?

  58. Not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didnt that nerdy guy from Mythbusters go on film showing a couple foot-long blades he accidentally left in his jacket pocket and was able to get on and off the plane with, without incident? Also about a year ago? You see, thats why security through obscurity and financing through fearmongering only goes so far.

  59. Great, now we'll get 3 times the exposure! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Front, then left, then right side. Next in line: top and botton (no pun intended) scans.

  60. LOL - The more citizens who fight... get real by Shivetya · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With so many citizens on the dole do you really expect them to care?

    It is happening to OTHER people. Not them. That is how they think. The government if giving them money to eat, giving them money when they don't earn any, giving them money if they don't make enough, paying for their health care, their transit passes, and their cell phones.

    Do you think they don't mind giving up stuff, the trade off seems to be only inconveniencing people who are flying, you know those who have their own money. You are out of touch with how many people think now

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:LOL - The more citizens who fight... get real by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With so many citizens on the dole do you really expect them to care?

      How many citizens do you think are on the dole? It's not as many as you think...

    2. Re:LOL - The more citizens who fight... get real by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      What the hell are you talking about? How many citizens "on the dole" do you think there are anyway? Citation needed.

      You are correct that citizens on the dole don't care about flying, because poor people generally don't fly, they take Greyhound, even though it's not significantly cheaper than flying. But the people with their hands in the sand aren't just poor people with felony records and welfare checks, it's the vast majority of the population.

  61. Big government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We've become a country of Bread and Circuses consuming, Entitlement gratified proles

    That is, of course, the entire goal of big government. Naturally, the bigger and more oppressive the government, the more lucrative the business of government.

  62. I got a better solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, why not send folks through the MM-Wave Pr0n machines -and wait for it- -wait some more- -wait AND the metal detectors, and wait, theres more! Grope them as well... We'll all be much safer if they implement these methods! Think of the children, don't aid the terrorists, and support the USA!

  63. Re:TSA Spring Offensive '12 by LVSlushdat · · Score: 1

    Just a matter of time before theres a big announcement that the TSA is changing their uniforms from blue shirts to brown shirts....

    Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it... Don't remember who said it, but is it ever appropriate here....

    --
    THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
  64. Re:False Modesty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whatever, speak for yourself. I don't want creepy strangers grabbing my breasts and fondling my labia, nor do I want a fat disgusting pervert in some pornography booth taking his time gawking at my naked body. For me, this really is about the sexual domination implied when the government orders me to display my genitalia for their inspection.

  65. Re:False Modesty by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Well, no. The false sense of security that tags along with them does, but the scanners don't directly aid you to get weapons on a plane.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  66. TSA = Shovel Ready Jobs by realsilly · · Score: 1

    Considering how much bullshit we go through, I would certainly see this as a Shovel Ready job. . . . . shoveling the shit being sold to America with our own tax paying dollars.

    --
    Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
  67. Easy fix by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    Have the person turn 90 degrees in the scanner and do a second scan. The downsides are that this increases the time taken to scan, doubles the radiation dosage in the case of the X-ray type scanner, and it doesn't address the many other weaknesses of body scanning.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  68. Re:False Modesty by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

    Metal detector: BEEP BEEP BEEP, no matter the orientation.

    These things, if you do it right: *blank stare*

    So yes, they do "aid" you.

  69. simple fix: images from the side by j2.718ff · · Score: 1

    The problem is items on the side of a person become invisible. Simple solution: make a person stand sideways.
    Currently, an image of the front and back of a person is taken. Just add two side images, and this particular loophole is closed! Come on, TSA, was it really that difficult?

  70. Maybe it's time to apply science and logic by kimvette · · Score: 1

    Maybe it's time to apply science and logic. Does it really make sense to disallow carrying on of hair gel, shaving cream, bottled water, juice, soft drinks, etc. and search American citizens with no radical islamic ties boarding domestic flights (especially juvenile and elderly citizens) and subject everyone to virtual strip searches or sexual assault, when profiling, a scientific principle, actually works? Moonbats might complain and feign offense, but really, it doesn't make sense to add hours to departure time (making flights of just happens to be a little darker than caucasians. Profiling actually works, is cheaper than spending trillions on security theater, and saves time for practically everyone. Why is it so offensive to liberal wackos? (no offense to reasonable liberals here - I'm referring to the drooling zombies who lack functioning neurons)

    We really ought to implement Israeli-style security; observe behavior and actually talk to people who display suspicious behavior as they go through security, and stop the pomp and circumstance. that the woefully ineffective yet extremely expensive mess that TSA has become. Even boxcutters or pocket knives aren't much of a risk any more, because prior to 9/11 the situation was a hijacked plane would land in Cuba or another non-US-friendly destination and everything would turn out okay; vacations would just be extended a bit. Now, people fight back and subdue morons who make it through our horribly ineffective yet expensive security measures and try to start trouble.

    On the rare occasions I do fly, I always bring something that can be turned into a defensive weapon (be creative; almost anything can be used as a weapon if you're of average intelligence or better and possess the slightest bit of creativity) and a towel (can be used to effectively defend against boxcutters and pocket knives), and if someone were to attempt to hijack a plane I am on, I would be one of those passengers fighting back - and I would not stop at restraining the would-be hijacker,. I would be administering pain and doing everything I can to permanently disfigure and/or maim the fucker.

    But, my choice is to drive, if the drive will be less than 16 hours. Even if it's longer, I'd consider driving instead, just so I don't have to submit to the government-sponsored pornographic photo shoot and/or sexual assault.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  71. Yeah, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Last time I checked this was a (relatively) free country.
    Fuck the TSA and make them responsible for the backscatter scanner radiation to which they are subjecting the general populace to. These scanners are not safe, they were pushed through by people that do not understand them, they do not work as advertised and need to be removed. Once again we see a money trail (political and otherwise) all in the name of safety. The TSA has a huge case of Cranial-rectal inversion.

  72. security theater by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The TSA is justified and correct - after all magicians would also complain if newspapers started revealing their tricks?

  73. Re:False Modesty by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Maybe we have different definitions for "aid". For me, for something to "aid" me it would have to facilitate something that would be harder to do if it didn't exist. These things are on par with the security present if they were absent, but they don't really make security worse than not having anything in their place.

    It's a given that pretty much any proven technology or methodology able to detect dangerous substances, from metal detectors to bomb seeking dogs, would be superior.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  74. Very exciting by ddt · · Score: 1

    I'm sure they'll be completely unable to compensate for that. For instance, I can't imagine them actually turning someone sideways for a second X-ray picture.

  75. Re:False Modesty by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

    Well, I didn't meant to say they make it easier than nothing, but easier than metal detectors (to bring metal on board). But sure, bombs aren't necessarily metal, and weapons aren't necessarily guns (gotta think of George Carlin here, talking about bringing "really big hands" on board haha).

  76. He's just an idiot that watched Die Hard by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    And I'm sure has never actually held a real gun.

    Unless there's some new advance in composites it is unlikely we'd ever see a gun made without steel. They don't just need to be metal, they need to be steel. The reason is that you need a substance that is strong and reasonably rigid, but not too rigid. It has to be able to flex some under the intense pressures it faces. So advanced ceramics and the like are out. Strong than steel, but too brittle. Titanium alloys have been tried but to my knowledge they've never been usable in everything. Tarus makes a titanium barreled gun (which apparently has shitty barrel life) but the hammer, sear, and so on are all steel because titanium gets too brittle.

    Maybe someday there will be a "no metal detector" gun but for now, steel is the only thing that gives both the hardness and flexibility needed for various parts.

  77. The worst part by blueforce · · Score: 1

    The most frustrating and depressing part is that we're just now getting started at this Soviet-style communist repression stuff. Judging by the other countries that have endured it, we get to look forward to another 30-50 years of things getting worse until enough people get enough pissed off for the system to get un-fucked. By then "told ya so" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

    --
    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  78. Oh, god, here comes the team player. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  79. Re:It is not about the truth it is about perceptio by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

    I saw a sign in the airport last weekend. "The backscatter scanner exposes you the same amount of radiation as you receive in two minutes in the airplane".

    I've seen those signs too. My first thought was "sure... standing INSIDE the scanner exposes you to the same amount of radiation... but what about when you're waiting in line for 20 minutes BESIDE the scanner? Plus, I can go outside and be exposed to MORE radiation than I receive in two minutes by the backscatter scanner... but it's not the same frequency of radiation, nor is it the same intensity (read: I don't mind being bombarded with radiation that will not pass through my clothing/skin, or that will pass right through without exciting my molecular structure - I just have issue with radiation that could be harmful to my DNA and cellular structure).

    When operated properly, backscanner scanning should be relatively harmless -- but what's done by experts in a lab is no measure for how the thing is implemented in the real world.

  80. And I'm proud to be an American, where at least... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

    ...I know I'm free.*

    *As long as I don't discuss anything that someone in our ever-expanding security apparatus doesn't want discussed.

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  81. The body snatch scanners... by doston · · Score: 1

    The war on terrorism has nothing to do with terrorism; the war on drugs has nothing to do with drugs. If we know, which we definitely do know, that the war on terror has nothing to do with terror, why should anybody be surprised that the body scanners are terribly ineffective for their purported use? It's highly ironic that the "war on terror" has been undertaken by the biggest terrorist state in the world, for the sole purpose of terrorizing its domestic enemy (its citizens).

  82. Easy to fix by PhunkySchtuff · · Score: 1

    This threat is easy to fix. Have the person in the scanner rotate 180 instead of simply standing still.

    1. Re:Easy to fix by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Oh noes! Slows! Requires thought and attention by both TSA goon and passenger. Can't have that - that's discriminatory.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  83. I dout they're that subtle by rhalstead · · Score: 1

    I doubt they are that subtle.

  84. It's the pilots we need to worry about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not the terrorists on planes that we need to worry about, it's the two idiots sitting up in the cockpit. The majority of airline disasters are caused by pilot error. The number of airline disasters caused by terrorists is very small by comparison. Yet pilots are forced to fly in all kinds of weather, day, night, and with little rest... and once in a great while, you'll get one who'll decide life's no longer worth living, push down on the controls while the other pilot is dropping a deuce, and you got another headline. It's happened at least once in recent memory with EgyptAir 990. Sure, pilots go through the same security screening as some schlub on a business trip to Wichita selling shower curtain rings. But the difference is our fates as airline passengers rest solely on the two people up front with their hands on the controls.

    9/11 was a one-time event that will likely never happen again. With secure cockpits, pilots packing heat, air marshals packing heat, passengers who no longer think they're going to be able to score some genuine Cuban cigars anymore and will now assume the worst, etc... etc... the days of some camel fucker pulling a knife on someone in first class thinking they're gonna get into the cockpit are over. Even if they could get a gun on board, depending on the caliber and magazine size, the damage inflicted would be minimal: small caliber weapons don't cause planes to blow up in the sky, and the shooter better be a damn good one since he's only got so many bullets to expend, and once the trigger pulls go from BANG to click - the terrorist now has a plane full of pissed off passengers to contend with. So is all this security really necessary? From a financial perspective, a handful of dead and/or wounded passengers is a much more favorable outcome than a loaded 767 slamming into the ground or some iconic building at 500 MPH in the name of Allah. We're spending billions in airport security to save the insurance companies a few hundred million every 10 years or so.

    Besides, around the world you got buses and trains being blown up... and what's there to stop someone from strapping on a vest made of C4 and detonating it in a crowded venue like an airline terminal, stadium, the DMV or some bridal show at the local convention center where the number of casualties inflicted will likely be greater than the number of passengers crammed into a 737 over the midwest? Or what's stopping some raghead in a speedboat packed with explosives from slamming into the side of the Love Boat on it's way to the Bahamas? Or someone with a shoulder-fired launcher hiding in the weeds at the end of a runway from taking out a plane that way?

    TSA is largely theater. Sure - the numbers all say that the skies are safer thanks to all of these measures and the money spent on airport security is well worth it. But this is the same government that sends thousands into war on terror knowing the statistical chances that a certain number will be given a one-way ticket to Andover AFB in a flag draped box... that number so far nearly double the casualties on 9/11, and counting.

  85. Media? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most so called journalists can be replaced with a monkey and a microphone. The main stream media is OWNED and don't cover these things because their owners want you fixated on the latest celebrity crap and reality TV shows. Follow the money and you find the real culprits. The TSA has lied repeatedly about the scanner testing and won't even give their own workers' union the test results.

    Seig Heil America.