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Ask Slashdot: How To Feed Africa?

gbrumfiel writes "Africa has some of the poorest soil of anywhere on the earth, and over farming is only making matters worse. As the population grows, governments and NGOs must decide whether to subsidize chemical fertilizers like those used in the west or promote more sustainable agricultural practices. In Malawi, the government has decided to subsidize fertilizers, with impressive results. Corn yields have tripled since the subsidies were introduced. More sustainable practices, such as fertilizer trees can't deliver those kind of results in just a few years. The question is simple: does Africa follow the same, unsustainable road as the rest of the world? Or do they become a testing ground for potentially game-changing new techniques? OR is there a third path? Discuss."

592 comments

  1. Stopped reading at... by gentryx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Africa has some of the poorest soils anywhere on the earth". Such a generic statement about a whole continent which contains huge portions of tropical rainforest and grassland is just wrong.

    --
    Computer simulation made easy -- LibGeoDecomp
    1. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Africa has some of the poorest soils anywhere on the earth". Such a generic statement about a whole continent which contains huge portions of tropical rainforest and grassland is just wrong.

      Well that, and the fact they call use of fertilizers "unsustainable". Bullshit, fertilizers take unsustainable farmland and make it sustainable.

    2. Re:Stopped reading at... by mosb1000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nevertheless, Africa is a whole continent. It has plenty of good farmland. Look at the US, most of it is "some of the poorest soil on earth." But the reality is you can still do a lot with it, using conventional farming techniques.

    3. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fertilizers are made from methane via the Haber process. Where do you get the methane from?

    4. Re:Stopped reading at... by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Interesting

      All of this reminds me of the bogus, misplaced effort of the Toms Shoes variety. You know - the guy who's margin on cheaply made shoes is so high, he donates a pair for African charity, for every pair your daughter buys in the Westfield Centre.

      Put your factory there! Employ Africans, and use the charity-profits to train local entreperneurship to become your next competitor! Teach a man to fish, fer godsake!

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    5. Re:Stopped reading at... by Patch86 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Technically the statement is (or can be) true. There's no reason Africa couldn't have "some of the poorest" AND "some of the richest" soils at the same time.

      A lot of Africa has poor soil, and a lot of the more fertile areas are rainforests which we wouldn't want to advocate burning to the ground to turn into farmland. Africa also has more than a billion people to feed. So the question is still a reasonably valid one- how do you turn the large expanses of infertile wasteland into productive arable land?

    6. Re:Stopped reading at... by intok · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Traditional farming techniques like tons of nitrite fertilizer and fresh water piped in from far off places? Thats not an option and it wasn't for allot of The Midwest during the 30's, look up the Dustbowl and how wind erosion destroyed allot of farmland here in the US and how it's destroying parts of China today. In many places there simply isn't enough water in the aquifers to just start pumping it out as 10 years down the line the region will have desertification due to all of the water that was trapped in the ground being sent downstream.

    7. Re:Stopped reading at... by mug+funky · · Score: 2

      by letting the food you grow rot, and capturing the resulting gas, duh.

    8. Re:Stopped reading at... by intok · · Score: 2, Informative

      Rainforests don't make food farmland long term by virtue of them being RAIN forrests, the amount of rain they get in a year quickly washes away the fertile topsoil once it's not being constantly being replenished by new leaf litter. as for the grasslands, they are grasses that are only there for the rainy season, I'd doubt that said land could maintain such a nutrient inefficient crop like corn long term.

    9. Re:Stopped reading at... by wierd_w · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Newsflash. Rainforest is terrible soil.

      Newsflash. Africa is suffering desertification, and the grasslands are mostly deep sand.

      Here is what africa needs to do:

      Healthy, fertile arable soil is about 50 parts clay, 20 parts sand, and 30 parts organic sponge. The types of clay in the 50% clay figure are important.

      Parts of africa are loaded with clay and organic sponge. Parts of africa are loaded with sand.

      Get the african nations to stop fighting each other over tarot roots, and get them to ship dirt to each other.

      We have the technology to do this. It isn't hard. The benefits greatly outweigh the costs over time. Chemical fertilizers do not solve the soil nutrition and arability problems. Pouring miracle grow on sand won't help you for long.

      Trade big shipments of river silt (organic sponge), heavy clay, and washed sand. Plow it into unproductive fields that are suffering deficits.

      Watch shit fucking grow.

    10. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Glaciers made the north fertile which the south largely lacked. They ground up mountains then dropped the minerals in the flatlands when the glaciers melted. Rock dust is an established way to make ground fertile but they don't line the pockets of oil companies so they are largely ignored. A combination of things like rock dust and kelp would make the ground fertile yet oddly aren't even discussed. The other factor is water which all the oil based fertilizers in the world won't change. One of the benefits to rock dust over oil based fertilizers is it actually restores lost minerals. In our society if it doesn't line the pockets of the rich we loose interest fast. Africa has large amounts of volcanic as well as other forms of rock that can be turned into fertilizer. It also has a massive amount of coastline that could be used to harvest kelp and other ocean based forms of fertilizer. There are a lot of fishermen yet why aren't they encouraged to use bi-catch, worthless fish, as fertilizer? Anything not sold is discarded when it could be fertilizing poor soil. All that is lacking is the will to use things that don't make the rich richer.

      Here are a few articles.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockdust

      http://www.rock-dust.co.za/

    11. Re:Stopped reading at... by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Informative

      Interestingly, (and I know this is somewhat tangential to the point you were making), and surprisingly, rainforests often have quite poor soil.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    12. Re:Stopped reading at... by tibit · · Score: 2

      +1 insightful. I've never thought of that!

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    13. Re:Stopped reading at... by wvmarle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While your solution for soil improvement may be technically correct (though you need lots and lots of shiploads of dirt to make it work), it's commercially impossible.

      The Africans themselves don't have money. Well not entirely true, there is a lot of money, but all in the hands of a few people who are not interested in sharing any of it. Subsidising such activities is difficult, as it's hard to prevent the money to end up in the wrong hands (i.e. those with a lot of money already, and only eager to get more).

      Finally, most Africancs are hungry RIGHT NOW. So they want food on the table RIGHT NOW. An instant solution is needed to solve that issue; only when they are fed RIGHT NOW they will be interested in thinking about being fed tomorrow, next week and next year. Artificial fertiliser can solve that part of the problem, but will need a more longer-term strategy to follow up.

    14. Re:Stopped reading at... by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      Rockdust (and volcanic clays) would be a good idea. Widespread removal of kelp and fish on a continental scale would destroy local fishing shoals.

      Better would be controlled dredging of river deltas, and removing the organic sludge for export. That stuff is alive with biotics and mineral salts.

    15. Re:Stopped reading at... by wierd_w · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem with quick easy fixes, is that people use them, then abuse them, and treat them like permanent ones.

      We nerds in IT should be well aware of this by now. How many "temporary fixes" have your employers twisted into permanent ones?

      Same thing here. There is money to be made. LOTS of money to be made, by *NOT* properly improving the soil. Shafting starving vllagers for miracle grow while the soil's mineral content dries up, leaving them with soil that won't even grow weeds in the rainy season is *VERY* profitable.

      That is why it must be avoided, and done right, if you really want the african people to not suffer.

    16. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I agree. I grew up in Africa. The problem is the governments, or rather dictators. For example, Zimbabwe (cough), COULD feed the whole of Sub-Saharan Africa. It has superbly rich soil, enough water, good rainfall. Yet the silly West have to prop it up as its 10 million inmates are starving. "aid" money hardly ever reaches its intended audience - 99.99% gets gobbled up by government officials, bribes, etc. It is simple the way of Africa. They think differently, no matter how much BS the Greens and Liberals tell you - people in the 3rd world do NOT think or act like YOU.

    17. Re:Stopped reading at... by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Better yet, get us internet at a speed and price competitive with the US.

      Knowledge is power, we can't even get sufficient 10th, 11th and 12th grade school books this year. (Pemba, Mozambique).

    18. Re:Stopped reading at... by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      The problem with quick easy fixes, is that people use them, then abuse them, and treat them like permanent ones.

      Absolutely true. But that doesn't mean that a quick fix is not necessary sometimes. When someone is bleeding heavily, you will put a quick-fix bandage on that arm, to stop the bleeding. You're not going to wait fixing it until someone comes with a needle and thread to stitch it up properly. Without the quick fix there is no patient left to sow up.

    19. Re:Stopped reading at... by Coeurderoy · · Score: 2

      Tropical rain forest is actually not a very good soil, if you try to use it as farmland you'll probably end up with a desert.
      http://library.thinkquest.org/C0113340/text/biomes/biomes.rainforest.soil.html

    20. Re:Stopped reading at... by hairyfish · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Get the african nations to stop fighting each other

      Impossible. I was to going make some comments about the situation there but everything I wrote sounded racist. How do you address the fact that seems to be a clear pattern of behaviour in that continent that doesn't look like it will ever be solved while the locals are in charge?

    21. Re:Stopped reading at... by eggstasy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't get it. Imagine setting up a factory in a place without a stable power or water supply, decent roads, large enough ports, with a corrupt dictatorship, tribal warlords, gigantic wildlife and weird tropical diseases.
      It's slowly getting better in some places, but Africa is not ours to fix. We could build them roads, but how do we get our money back, tolls? They don't have enough cars for that. We could lend them money to build roads but it would be squandered by corrupt politicians who would default on the debt.
      It really has to be solved by them (think Arab Spring), unless you want to colonize the place again and develop it for your own people to use.
      Like I said, it's getting better in Angola, for instance, and all they had to do was to stop fighting their silly guerrillas and get a stable government. They're attracting lots of international investment nowadays.

    22. Re:Stopped reading at... by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 5, Funny

      Imagine setting up a factory in a place without a stable power or water supply, decent roads, large enough ports, with a corrupt dictatorship, tribal warlords, gigantic wildlife and weird tropical diseases - Florida?

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    23. Re:Stopped reading at... by wierd_w · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Better is to provide them with food while they do the improvements. This way they don't become complacent and misuse chemical fertilizers as some kind of magic bullet.

      Agreed that they need to eat now. Disagree that introducing them to liquid fertilizers that cause collateral soil damage is the best temporary solution.

    24. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Africa has some of the poorest soils anywhere on the earth". Such a generic statement about a whole continent which contains huge portions of tropical rainforest and grassland is just wrong.

      very very very simple BIRTH CONTROL in aerosol form long lasting 15 years or so each spraying if they say the land cannot support them then prune and control to numbers that it can

    25. Re:Stopped reading at... by wierd_w · · Score: 2

      The ask slashdot question was how to solve the soil fertility problem. Not how to solve human nature.

      Humans fight each other over bullshit all the time. Catholics and protestants in ireland. Jews and arabs in the middle east. Vietnamese and laosians. On amd on and on.

      I was asked how to solve the hunger. Creating world peace? Somebody else can solve that one.

    26. Re:Stopped reading at... by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      Africa
      11,668,599 sq mi
      1,022,234,000
      pop density 87.4/sq mi
      GDP Per Capita 16,021 - 400
      56 Countries

      USA
      3,794,101 sq mi
      313,263,000
      pop density 80/sq mi
      GDP Per Capita 48,147
      1 Country

      So the USA is a third the size, with a third the population, but they are more than 3x richer ...the real issue

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    27. Re:Stopped reading at... by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      US: 50+ federated states + a federal government that can regulate interstate commerce.

      Africa: 50+ warring nations with penis envy problems, and no unifying structure at all.

      The *real* difference.

    28. Re:Stopped reading at... by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Detroit.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    29. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, it's just money. Everything else is a by-product of having or not having it. As to the why's and wherefores of money, I guess Africa just doesn't have a modern capitalist culture, which impacted it in trade dealing with all nations over the last few centuries, and the build-up of wealth.

      Oh, and also because other nations treated them as pretty much a slave nation rather than a trading partner in the early years. Kinda put them on the back foot when it comes to modern society

      Just saying.

    30. Re:Stopped reading at... by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Informative

      Subsidising such activities is difficult, as it's hard to prevent the money to end up in the wrong hands (i.e. those with a lot of money already, and only eager to get more).

      That's why talking about food is useless. It isn't about insufficient food, but poor distribution of food.

    31. Re:Stopped reading at... by sjames · · Score: 3, Funny

      Eat the rich!

    32. Re:Stopped reading at... by mwvdlee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      to become your next competitor!

      And there you have it. The plain and simple reason why that is NOT happening and the plain and simple reason why the west is pressing on Africa to not use the same farming methods the west is using. We'd all like Africans not to starve, but only so they can be our customers. Teaching a man to fish sounds like a good idea until they fish well enough so they can undercut our own fishing industry. I'm not saying I agree with this, but it seems to be the reality for most charity money.

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    33. Re:Stopped reading at... by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So the USA is a third the size, with a third the population, but they are more than 3x richer ...the real issue

      Funny thing about "richer" - It only matters when participating in a larger economy, not when subsistence farming.

      Case in point, look at how the US's Great Depression affected varying regions of the country in radically different ways - The wealthy coastal cities, whose economies and interests had largely separated from agriculture, suffered horribly; Rural farming communities, by contrast, barely noticed anything had changed (and despite the ever-popular fairy-tale about the evil bankers foreclosing on the poor ignorant farmer, at the peak of the Great Depression they suffered a mere one tenth of the foreclosure rate we experienced just two years ago).


      So whether or not Africa has money only influences whether or not they can opt for our modern pathological approach to every problem - Buy their way out by importing expensive resources from "somewhere else". Problem with that approach, eventually you run out of money or somewhere-elses to exploit.

    34. Re:Stopped reading at... by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Yep, not so long ago in historical terms Ethiopia and Zimbawe were the breadbaskets of Europe.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    35. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says the guy with his own 3000 MHz computer, electricity to run it on, and Cheetos to munch while he uses it.

    36. Re:Stopped reading at... by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 2

      The Haber process converts H2 and N2 into ammonia. Carbon is not a major growth-limiting resource in most plants. They have this wonderful thing called CO2 fixation. You may have heard of it.

      (At any rate, all the cool kids get their fertilizers from decommissioned German World War I munitions, also made using the Haber process.)

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    37. Re:Stopped reading at... by Nikker · · Score: 1

      If the issue being discussed is lack of food then I think it is more than your children that need education.

      --
      A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
    38. Re:Stopped reading at... by MisterMidi · · Score: 1, Interesting

      ... Africa is not ours to fix.We could build them roads, but how do we get our money back, tolls?

      If you're going down that road, how do they get back what we stole from them in the last couple of centuries? I'd argue it is ours to fix. We broke it, we fix it.

    39. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having more money than a dirt poor African doesn't necessarily equate to "rich." "It could be worse" does not mean "the current situation is good."

    40. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Get the african nations to stop fighting each other over tarot roots, and get them to ship dirt to each other.

      You forget that there is no interest at all in making them stop. First world sells them guns and ammunition and gets cheap oil and diamonds.

    41. Re:Stopped reading at... by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was to going make some comments about the situation there but everything I wrote sounded racist. How do you address the fact that seems to be a clear pattern of behaviour in that continent that doesn't look like it will ever be solved while the locals are in charge?

      Race != Culture.

      You want to solve Africa's problems? Take the damned place over and set up a modern Western-style central government.

      Gee, does that sound a bit too much like colonialism? Hey, guess what, Africa's colonial period counts as the only part of its history (post-Egypt, itself an exception due to the Nile and Mediterranean) where it had any meaningful level of economic output. You might argue that it only managed that by exploiting the local populations... But, if others can make money exploiting you, you can "exploit" yourself for the same gain!

      Quit fighting each other over petty crap, clean up the water, focus on better using what resources you have (Yes, parts of Africa has some of the worst soil in the world - It also has enough arable land to feed its entire population with plenty of room for growth), and join the modern world. On the flip side of that, when you regularly make the "look, point, and laugh" headlines for burning witches over stealing your penises... Not a sign of good things to come.

    42. Re:Stopped reading at... by petman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why argue about the soil? It's a red herring, if you ask me. You can find crops for any type of soil, even pure sand. The real problem is fresh water.

    43. Re:Stopped reading at... by makomk · · Score: 5, Interesting

      A lot of Africa has poor soil, and a lot of the more fertile areas are rainforests which we wouldn't want to advocate burning to the ground to turn into farmland.

      The rainforests apparently have really bad soil too actually - there's a thin, slightly more fertile surface layer that's bound in place by the trees and that's it, and once the trees are gone the soil rapidly becomes useless for farming.

    44. Re:Stopped reading at... by CrackedButter · · Score: 2

      An Arab Spring isn't going to happen over there, people actually vote their politicians in even if they hate him. A strict adherence to tribal culture will make sure the nominee they hate is their guy instead of person X even if he has better policies.

      Plus it isn't in most parts of Africa to 'fix' anything, they build something and use it till it breaks then make a new one, maintenance isn't something a lot are interested and this is with houses, never mind roads!

    45. Re:Stopped reading at... by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Interesting

      OTOH: China turned the loess plataue from a moonscape into one of the largest apple producving regions in the world in under 20yrs. The area is about the size of France and was previuously known as "the most erroded place on Earth". Changing the locals from goat hearders using state land into government sanctioned property owners was a key ingredient to the success, as was the Chinese government's desire to stop millions of tons of silt filling up the three gorges dam. However one of my favorite good news stories about rehabilitating an area is a ted talk on How to grow a rainforest.

      So my take home from these examples is that it CAN be done if the problem is viewed in a scientific manner with a heavy emphasis on imporoving the material lives of the locals by assisting them with high tech analysis on how to optimize and maintain the benifits of their natural resources given their real world technological and infrastructure constraints. Giving peseants a chunk of land on the proviso they stick to the basic tenents of the project is a fantastic motivator.

      Interestingly the area was once a natural 'paradise' where Chinese civilization first arose ~10kya, but by the middle ages it was a man made wasteland that forced the main population to largely abandon the area to goat hearders who have inadvertently kept it from regenerating for the last 1000yrs. All they really had to do was plant trees in the right places and stop mowing every new shoot down with hungry goats but when people have been doing the same thing for 1000yrs it's very difficult to convince them that there might be a better way to use what they have.

      Be they good or bad (cultural revolution), such long term socio-economic projects cannot be done without a stable government, which is a huge problem in Africa. In the case of the loess plateau it was a joint project between China and the IMF, the $500M was well spent from what I've seen.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    46. Re:Stopped reading at... by Charcharodon · · Score: 1
      If you're going down that road, how do they get back what we stole from them in the last couple of centuries? I'd argue it is ours to fix. We broke it, we fix it.

      We stole? You mean they stole and Europeans stole. Over here in America we had plenty of to steal from the Native Americans we didn't earn the blame for Africa too.

      Don't give me slavery. African's started the slave trade they and the Arabs (much of what is considered the Middle East is actually in Africa) enthusiastically sold their own people into it once they found out there were overseas buyers.

    47. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Africans have been hungry 30 years ago. They wanted food on the table 30 years ago. What have THEY done in a whole 1-2 generations to improve their situation?

    48. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quite. Zimbabwe, for example, has rich farming soil. It could probably feed Africa by itself. Pity its political environment isn't so fertile...

    49. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Drove out the last white farmers. Blamed the non-improvement of situation on the white man.

    50. Re:Stopped reading at... by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      Reduced food production. So once the world stops sending them food their population will quickly drop to a locally sustainable level.

    51. Re:Stopped reading at... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Want to help fix that? Stop buying Fairtrade products from Africa. Growing export crops (often ones that require a lot of water) takes farmland away from growing food for local consumption, which pushes the price up beyond the reach of the poorest people. I suppose this helps to address the population problem, but not in a particularly humane way.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    52. Re:Stopped reading at... by SQL+Error · · Score: 1

      Step 1: Shoot goats on sight. Goats can survive on land that can't carry cattle or sheep, but they prevent the land from ever recovering.

    53. Re:Stopped reading at... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Reduced food production

      Not just that. Initiatives like Fairtrade have made a lot of farmers shift from growing food for local consumption to growing things like roses and coffee for export. Guaranteeing a price above the market value of these crops made them a lot more lucrative.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    54. Re:Stopped reading at... by baffled · · Score: 1

      You just need the components bagged up. There's a massive workforce available. People will work their butts off to feed themselves. Vast farming fields - don't need 'em. Let each family work their backyard.

    55. Re:Stopped reading at... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Money is just an abstraction for wealth. A lot of African nations are very rich in raw materials, including things like diamonds and uranium that other countries want. The problem is that when this is exported there is little reinvestment in local infrastructure. Most of the money goes to corrupt governments or foreign corporations. Imagine how wealthy the USA would be 10 years from now if you destroyed all of the roads, water and power distribution, and telephone / Internet infrastructure.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    56. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only when they are fed RIGHT NOW will they breed in a totally unsustainable manner and be back to square 1 (or worse) within 10 years

      Fixed.

      Africa keeps having famines because they wildly exceed the carrying capacity of their land. Bailing them out with crisis aid every time they overpopulate YET AGAIN doesn't achieve anything in the long run, except wasting money and flooding the west's welfare state with those members of their surplus population that are able to escape.

    57. Re:Stopped reading at... by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Ah. The white man's burden.

      Someone has to be the villian, I guess.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    58. Re:Stopped reading at... by Kharny · · Score: 1

      The problem has been the RIGHT NOW attitude all along.
      There has been no sustained development by the ngo's.
      You know what happens when you dump tons of rice into area's with a million people to feed?
      You'll have 2 million people to feed before long.

      --
      Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
    59. Re:Stopped reading at... by JamesP · · Score: 2

      Exactly

      Do you know what else has poor soil? The Amazon Forest http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0502.htm

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    60. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rainforest soil IS poor. Counterintuitive I know

    61. Re:Stopped reading at... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Just to be clear, your solution is: let them die of starvation?

    62. Re:Stopped reading at... by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Farmland is what you make of it. Something grows everywhere, save for rocks and sand.Find what grows where, and grow it there.
      Composting plant material, food scraps and shit is a better idea than chemical fertilizer. Just send African officials on a close up tour of Napa Valley. There won't be any foolish talk of fertilizers after that! Let 'em eat one of those flavorless tomatoes....
                  Even in the poorest soil regions, hydroponic techniques can help feed locals. Other countries with poor farming conditions focus on marijuana and cocaine, even poppy production as cash crops . Cash converts to food just fine ,thank you and the world is always on the lookout for more drugs. Morality? There will always ALWAYS be those predisposed to drug use, if you can help them find the Darwin zen they seek and feed yourself along the way you have only made use of a natural resource rather than wasting it. Drug use doesn't spread because of availability , it spreads due to genetics. It would be immoral to not feed the hungry when a way is provided. Sorry if you thought that legislation and enforcement were viable cure/control for a natural glitch in the race. "There, there" -- Sheldon, Big Bang Theory.

      --
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    63. Re:Stopped reading at... by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      They're also carbon neutral - the stuff about them being "the lungs of the world" is crap - but they do moderate climate, and the carbon that is locked up in them shouldn't be released.

      And that neglects their real value, as a source of genetic diversity, and immense beauty.

    64. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is exactly what parent just said.

    65. Re:Stopped reading at... by khallow · · Score: 1

      So the USA is a third the size, with a third the population, but they are more than 3x richer ...the real issue

      The real issue is INFRASTRUCTURE. Not just physical but also social, legal, and economic.

    66. Re:Stopped reading at... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They think differently, no matter how much BS the Greens and Liberals tell you - people in the 3rd world do NOT think or act like YOU.

      All homo-sapiens brains work in the same way. So yes they do think the same way. They have experiences, different cultural references and so on that means in the same situation they might make different decisions. But then in whatever your country is, on any question, people will have a range of often diametrically opposing views.

      As to corruption, it's not a result of different thinking. There is corruption in every country where people are allowed to get away with it. Government officials everywhere are bribed. Just this week we've seen David Cameron the prime minister of the UK secretly making himself available for private consultations over lunch with anyone who can come up with £250,000.

      I'm not sure exactly what it is that you claiming the "greens and liberals" are saying that is wrong. But clearly your racist thoughts are very wrong.

    67. Re:Stopped reading at... by paiute · · Score: 1

      Shafting starving vllagers for miracle grow while the soil's mineral content dries up, leaving them with soil that won't even grow weeds in the rainy season is *VERY* profitable.

      Where does a starving village get the money to make this trade very profitable?

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    68. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's what has always baffled me about slavery. When you look at scale, raw numbers or treatment of slaves, the Arabs were far, far worse than the worst Americans ever were. Well, not arabs, really. Muslims. Slavery was never committed on the scale muslims did it before, and the scrapping of the legal concept of slavery from most (not all) muslim countries' law very nearly totally eradicated slavery, of course only in a superficial sense. In real terms, slavery exists in lots of moder muslim-majority nations (in the form of decades-long "employment" contracts that can't be broken under law by the employee and can be sold between employers. These contracts don't allow the "employee" to choose his/her own housing either, for example). Furthermore, slavery is a fundamental and "holy" part of islam, and those who believe that countries like Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Morocco don't have slavery need to visit them. When it comes to the word "slavery", that has been stricken from their laws (not entirely, as for example it is referenced in the laws about adultery : you are free to rape female slaves, maim them or do whatever you want to them in muslim countries), in practice, what little economy there is essentially runs on slavery*.

      * that does not, in all cases, means the "slaves" are unhappy about that, at all. Like in the Roman Empire, the only way to be a tradesman in parts of Saudi Arabia is to be bound by such a contract. If not, you can't be a programmer, or architect. But of course, the people working outside in the hot sun are the same. Not all slaves are unhappy, and in fact even under the very ill treated slaves many appreciate the certainty that being one of a huge number of slaves provides, which is really another way of saying they've got zero alternatives and are aware of this. Yes, really. I know how it sounds, but really, you should talk to a few of these people. Make sure that you don't have any muslims, especially not local muslims, nearby when you do this in a place like Dubai or Abu Dhabi.

      (though the question can be made very general indeed. Islam means living according to sharia, and that's pretty much the only thing it means. How can this abomination possibly be allowed ? Are you free to impose slavery ? Free to kill for religious reasons ? Free to have racist purchasing habits for "halal" meat ? Free to advocate religious war, support it financially ? Apparently the modern answer is yes. WTF ?)

      There's also the tiny matter that the entirety of Northern Africa has been stolen from it's original inhabitants, just like America (and just like Asia Minor and it's wide surroundings, Indonesia and several other places). There's one difference, I guess, unlike native Americans and imported African slaves, most native peoples who lived in Northern Africa are extinct because of the contest and the constant toll of slavery, and have no descendants.

      And of course, when it comes to America's slaves ... Americans, nor Dutchmen, ever kidnapped people from native African villages. They bought them off of muslims, and exported them. The great schism of protestantism occured at least partly because the Pope thought this cheating. Although it's not like protestants were ever really in favor of it, but they did tolerate it for a while. The issue is that Catholics never tolerated it, and thorougly made sure of this (by regularly executing ship's captains who had bought slaves of muslims in Northern Africa and didn't spontaneously free them, for example in Nice).

      Furthermore, slavery was imposed upon most of Africa for the better part of a millenium by muslims (not necessarily arabs, or perhaps better, not arabs everywhere), far, far longer than anywhere else on the planet.

      And lastly, nobody in America seriously considers reintroducing slavery, when there's plenty of muslims bent on doing exactly that. Even if you put aside the people who "just want to live by sharia" and re-introduce slavery that way (plenty of those ev

    69. Re:Stopped reading at... by paiute · · Score: 1

      ...people in the 3rd world do NOT think or act like YOU.

      What - you are saying they are not human? You want to go down that road? I say we are all pretty much the same on the whole. If history had been reversed and the US and Africa changed places I'm pretty sure my town would have warlords instead of councilmembers.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    70. Re:Stopped reading at... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      "Africa has some of the poorest soils anywhere on the earth". Such a generic statement about a whole continent which contains huge portions of tropical rainforest and grassland is just wrong.

      Rainforests actually have notoriously shit soil(which is one of the big problems when people slash and burn them in the hopes of getting some agriculture done). They have massive amounts of biomass-growing-on-biomass-growing-on-biomass-eating-the-biomass-growing-on-the-biomass; but it's totally standard to discover that much of the nutrient cycling is going on above the dirt, and if you burn off the existing flora and fauna you are rewarded with some rocky, reddish sand.

    71. Re:Stopped reading at... by craigminah · · Score: 1

      I always thought what we should do with the situation in Ethiopia in the 80's wasn't to create a dependence on us feeding them but to either teach them to feed themselves without any help or to relocate them. The third option, do nothing, is enticing but it's hard to turn your back on other people...unless they don't respond to either of the two options I already mentioned.

    72. Re:Stopped reading at... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Not to worry, Delta City will be open for business soon.

    73. Re:Stopped reading at... by delinear · · Score: 2

      Indeed, and the glaringly obvious answer if people are starving now and refuse to or are incapable of working is that you pay them to do the work in food. Instead of charities just gifting food and medical aid, use it to incentivise a work force to work towards the kind of improvements that will lift large parts of the continent out of danger. Let's not rely on the corrupt governments to instigate these improvements, empower the people to create their own better future.

    74. Re:Stopped reading at... by dkleinsc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How many "temporary fixes" have your employers twisted into permanent ones?

      Hence one of my laws of IT: There ain't no such thing as a "temporary solution" - if it works, it becomes permanent. If it doesn't work, it's not a solution.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    75. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only way to circumvent this is to get in the trenches and start from the bottom up. Integrity can only be planted in equity, then once communities have tasted its fruit, they will will figure out a way to water it.
      "...people in the 3rd world do NOT think or act like YOU."

      Yes, but we can integrate our thinking.

      Equity is the soil they need help in making, and the process is sharing impartially. For example (oversimplified), I move into a small village, I prosper, I share all my prosperity impartially with the village so they won't resent or steal; then as my prosperity increases, I share with neighboring villages (especially adversaries) and officials impartially...though, the whole objective is to keep the wealth so incremental and dispersed that the officials won't even notice it... even if a whole district can be sustainably fed as a result, the sharing must continue beyond to prevent making things worse.

      Our responsibility is to alleviate hunger, sickness and sadness; not general poverty -- that is up to the gods.

      “Go to the people, live with them, learn from them, love them. Start with what they know, build with what they have. With the best leaders when the work is done, the task is accomplished, the people will say, 'we have done this ourselves'” -Lao-tzu

    76. Re:Stopped reading at... by sempir · · Score: 0

      So the USA is a third the size, with a third the population, but they are more than 3x richer ...the real issue

      OK, how bout we send you 2 thirds of the people here, that should even things up for a while!

      --
      A closed mouth gathers no foot.
    77. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're also carbon neutral - the stuff about them being "the lungs of the world" is crap - but they do moderate climate, and the carbon that is locked up in them shouldn't be released.

      And that neglects their real value, as a source of genetic diversity, and immense beauty.

      Here in the west we have gained a high standard of living buy building a sophisticated civilization which we have done at the expense of the forests and abundant wildlife that used to exist in Europe and large portions of the USA before it was exterminated in the name of progress (along with much of the aboriginal human populations). It is always interesting to see westerners telling dirt poor people in Africa, S-America and elsewhere that they must stay poor, and not take our (easy) route of rapaciousness and greed to eventual prosperity. It is an awfully easy position to take whey you will return to a modern apartment and relax in front of the TV with your iPad at the end of the discussion while the person you are telling this to will return to a hovel in some shanty town where he/she leads a hand-to-mouth existence with their family at the mercy of brutal local land owners, criminal gangs and if they are really unlucky a corrupt government.

    78. Re:Stopped reading at... by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Exacly.
      In fact they have some of the best of the entire world. There are places in Africa where the top soil is like 20 feet deep.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    79. Re:Stopped reading at... by MisterMidi · · Score: 2

      By "we" I mean "we, the first world countries". Yes, that includes the US too. And yes, I will give you slavery. A car analogy: if you pay a thief to steal a car for you, does that make you innocent?

      But I will give you more than slavery: how about other resources, like diamonds, gold, oil and rubber? Africa is still being exploited by first world countries for their natural resources, and that includes the US.

    80. Re:Stopped reading at... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      "Africa has some of the poorest soils anywhere on the earth". Such a generic statement about a whole continent which contains huge portions of tropical rainforest and grassland is just wrong.

      Good soil / poor soil, there's enough growing potential to feed all the people (and animals) on the Continent. The problems are in utilization, management, distribution and elimination of corruption and graft.

      If you dumped enough MREs to feed every human in Africa twice over at a port on the coast, I doubt it would ever benefit 90% of them.

    81. Re:Stopped reading at... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Maybe ask them if they want it fixed?

    82. Re:Stopped reading at... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Because post-WWII Japanese and German reconstruction was a mistake?

    83. Re:Stopped reading at... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Reduced food production

      Not just that. Initiatives like Fairtrade have made a lot of farmers shift from growing food for local consumption to growing things like roses and coffee for export. Guaranteeing a price above the market value of these crops made them a lot more lucrative.

      In theory: they could buy even more foodstuff with their Fairtrade income than they could grow.

      In practice: Woohoo new plasma TV!

      Just like the Westerners.

    84. Re:Stopped reading at... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      The ask slashdot question was how to solve the soil fertility problem. Not how to solve human nature.

      Sorry, didn't read the question (let alone the article), the headline was "How to feed Africa?" and it's much more fun to react to the first thing that tweaks your interest.

      When answering "How to feed Africa?", human nature is the problem. Soil fertility could be solved with existing knowledge from any number of sources, researched, correlated to local conditions, optimized for cost.... oops, when you go to implement it, that's when you hit the interesting issues.

    85. Re:Stopped reading at... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      I was to going make some comments about the situation there but everything I wrote sounded racist. How do you address the fact that seems to be a clear pattern of behaviour in that continent that doesn't look like it will ever be solved while the locals are in charge?

      Race != Culture.

      Exactly. The USA has undergone several cultural changes in the last century: Women's sufferage and Civil Rights for example. People _can_ change. I was born just after the Civil Rights movement, and I have seen the generations shift away from racial prejudice - we're not completely there yet (especially in my town), but compared to 50 years ago, the progress (even in my town) is amazing.

    86. Re:Stopped reading at... by TFAFalcon · · Score: 2

      Let MOST die of starvation. It's what used to happen all over the world, Europe included. Population rose to the maximum allowed by food production, then a drought or something similar knocked it back down. But there was no country that would get food shipped to it for free year after year.

      So just stop aid shipments. Let them figure out how to either earn enough money to buy food or grow enough themselves. Sure many will die, but many die anyway. If not from hunger then from civil wars. If the population drops enough civil wars will stop on their own and the people that survive will be too busy growing food to fight.

    87. Re:Stopped reading at... by sonoftheright · · Score: 3, Insightful

      MFW Ghana, Eritrea are amongst the fastest growing real GDPs in the world. "Quit fighting"? "Join the modern world"? Most of the stunted growth everyone is referring to here is due to an overabundance of liquid assets - food, money, medication - being reappropriated by force and placed into the hands of oppressors; the individuals stuck in these sustained power vacuums can't help but face the problems of the here and now. Their only thought is to see the next sunrise. While in that state, they have no luxury to educate themselves or produce goods to compete, let alone innovate. Trade the subsidies and all forms of monetary aid for micro-loaning schemes meant to support individuals and individual small businesses, and you will give locals an alternative to the force-driven monopoly that is sustainable and promotes growth. Starve the cancerous militia and the people will have the motivation and the inspiration to provide alternatives.

    88. Re:Stopped reading at... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      In our society if it doesn't line the pockets of the rich, the rich loose interest fast.

      FTFY. Take power away from the rich and they won't be able to abuse it (as much), also, the near-rich should become less interested in becoming six-sigma-wealthy/powerful and start doing things other than wealth building.

    89. Re:Stopped reading at... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      They think differently, no matter how much BS the Greens and Liberals tell you - people in the 3rd world do NOT think or act like YOU.

      All homo-sapiens brains work in the same way.

      That is just plain wrong.

    90. Re:Stopped reading at... by mdarksbane · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Aid money is destroying Africa. There's no need to work on a functioning social or government organizations when you can stay in power perfectly well just off of what's getting shipped to you from the West.

      Most government budgets in Africa treat aid as a core part of their income - some as much as 50%. They don't use it to cover short term shortfalls, they expand spending to use everything. And these are the governments that are actually using the money and not just pocketing it.

      "We" (we being the west) cannot fix Africa short of turning it into east Carolina. They need to come up with their own functional modes of government and funding, whatever those are, on their own. The people have no chance when their local tinpot dictators are being propped up by someone with 100x their power and economy.

    91. Re:Stopped reading at... by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 1

      North America, 23 separate countries some very warlike one who has been involved in most international wars, with no unifying structure ....seems to be mostly doing OK

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    92. Re:Stopped reading at... by montyzooooma · · Score: 1

      If my great, great, great, great, great grandfather paid a thief to steal a car for him then (a) how is it MY fault and (b) who even had cars back then? Your car theory falls apart unless we stole time travel from Africa as well as the elephant feet. Pfft.

    93. Re:Stopped reading at... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      If you think education has nothing to do with food then you are the one who needs more.

      Forget about advanced education that could get people jobs through which they could afford to buy food. Just think that there are simple systems of irrigation which stabilise soil on steep slopes whilst conserving water. These systems are not obvious and have to be taught. Just think that a knowledge of climate and even to some extent climate change together with the value and risk of different crops allows farmers to diversify so that in exceptionally bad years they still have enough to eat.

      In order to undersand the risks of fertilizers, for example, you should really have a good understanding of micronutrients and the ways in which a crop which looks perfect may in fact be nutritionally deficient. You should really have a reasonable grasp of the limitations of scientific knowledge of biochemistry if you want to be able to debate and explain these things with agri-biz representatives. These kind of things are not fully understand even in places with supposedly good educational systems.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    94. Re:Stopped reading at... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      In theory: they could buy even more foodstuff with their Fairtrade income than they could grow.

      The problem is that 'they' is not the same people. The people making the money from the Fairtrade crops are not the same people who are starving. They are farm owners. People who used to buy food from their local farms are not able to because the local farm no longer produces things for sale locally and getting food from further away is too expensive.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    95. Re:Stopped reading at... by BasilBrush · · Score: 0

      Autism, the inability to distinguish what's relevant and what isn't in a given context.

    96. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, what did we steal? Some fruit? Some minerals? Ok, americans did steal their kids to use as slaves, but that's long gone and doesn't really affect Africa today.

    97. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or make the Merrykin farm lobby compete in a genuine free and open trade market.

    98. Re:Stopped reading at... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      In theory: they could buy even more foodstuff with their Fairtrade income than they could grow.

      The problem is that 'they' is not the same people. The people making the money from the Fairtrade crops are not the same people who are starving. They are farm owners. People who used to buy food from their local farms are not able to because the local farm no longer produces things for sale locally and getting food from further away is too expensive.

      Which circles back to distribution and social issues as the root of the problem. Fairtrade _could_ help feed the continent even better than aid-food does, but neither work as well as proponents hope they would.

    99. Re:Stopped reading at... by trg83 · · Score: 2

      It's really not about who's richer. By that logic, if we just gave up all our wealth brought to us by democracy and "evil" capitalism, we could be just as destitute and hungry as them. I have to point out the similarity I see to survivors' guilt in what you are implying.

      The only solution I ever hear put forth for addressing economic inequality is to reduce all of us to a common baseline through taxation, regulation, and sending our wealth elsewhere. Maybe what we really need to focus on is sharing our ideals rather than striving to share their pain. Some of the thoughts mentioned previously in this thread on colonialism were very thought-provoking.

      It is interesting, that if the US is only 3 times more wealthy, how much more mileage we are getting out of our money here--and how much more equitable our system of government must be. I know I am more than 3 times better fed than the starving Africans portrayed on TV. And I have a TV to watch them on, in a waterproof house with climate control. I am not saying that to be insensitive, just that it does give some credibility to the idea of exporting American ideals. Call it imperialism if you must.

    100. Re:Stopped reading at... by microTodd · · Score: 1

      An honest question...how does buying fair trade products hurt the situation? I'm well aware of the "there's enough food...it's a distribution problem" issue. But what's fair trade got to do with it?

      --
      "You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design
    101. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine setting up a factory in a place without a stable power or water supply, decent roads, large enough ports, with a corrupt dictatorship, tribal warlords, gigantic wildlife and weird tropical diseases - Florida?

      Probably why there are so few factories in Florida, aside from fruit and vegetable processing plants.

    102. Re:Stopped reading at... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Autism, the inability to distinguish what's relevant and what isn't in a given context.

      ...according to the social norms of the majority. Also known as free-thinking and inventive. Not necessarily better, but different, and when "normal" is screwed up, different at least has a chance of being better.

      In the context of asking a bunch of nerds for ideas, saying all homo-sapiens brains work the same is more than a little obtuse.

    103. Re:Stopped reading at... by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      "...Get the african nations to stop fighting each other ... We have the technology to do this..."

      I must have missed something, because I haven't noticed a significant lack of fighting on Earth in the last 100 years, or even the last 10.

      We have the technology to solve a lot of problems; the challenges are human ones that tech can't easily solve.

      --
      -Styopa
    104. Re:Stopped reading at... by MisterMidi · · Score: 0

      There's a difference between fault and responsibility. If your kid breaks something, it's not your fault but it is your responsibility. Likewise, you have a moral responsibility for the actions of your great, great, great, great, great grandfather, especially if to this day it's a great contribution to your wealth and the other's poorness. It's easy to say "Whatever, not my fault". You'd of course be right, but would it be fair? Hate to Godwin this, but do you also think it's ok for the grandchildren of a Nazi to keep the gold their grandfather stole from Jews in WWII?

    105. Re:Stopped reading at... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Funny

      An honest question...how does buying fair trade products hurt the situation?

      An honest question...why respond to a comment without even fucking reading it?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    106. Re:Stopped reading at... by jpapon · · Score: 1

      If the population drops enough civil wars will stop on their own and the people that survive will be too busy growing food to fight.

      Yeah, because there were no wars in Europe back in the good ol' Dark Ages, when the populations were lower.

      You've got it completely backwards. People want to fight MORE when they're unhappy (for instance, starving) than when they are content (for instance, well-fed).

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    107. Re:Stopped reading at... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Which circles back to distribution and social issues as the root of the problem. Fairtrade _could_ help feed the continent even better than aid-food does,

      but only in a communist or socialist system, which corporatist co-called "democracies" like the USA cannot permit to exist, and which we prevent by propping up one warlord and then another to keep things shitty in the region.

      What is needed for Africa to fix itself is for other nations to stop taking gigantic shits on it

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    108. Re:Stopped reading at... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 4, Funny

      Vast farming fields - don't need 'em. Let each family work their backyard.

      Chairman Mao? I thought you were dead!

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    109. Re:Stopped reading at... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Case in point, look at how the US's Great Depression affected varying regions of the country in radically different ways - The wealthy coastal cities, whose economies and interests had largely separated from agriculture, suffered horribly; Rural farming communities, by contrast, barely noticed anything had changed

      That is a load of dingo's kidneys. Rural farming communities, by contrast, were in a big fucking dustbowl where nothing would grow, which is how it became a great depression and not just a recession. Not just no work and no money, but no food. It took massive public works projects and a massive farmer re-education effort to turn that around. Now, guess what? Big Ag is doing the exact same things that led to the dustbowl in the first place, PLUS some new ones.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    110. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Build foxconn factories in Africa.

    111. Re:Stopped reading at... by MisterMidi · · Score: 1

      "Some fruit? Some minerals?" Are you serious or just trolling? Here, have some reading or google it yourself

    112. Re:Stopped reading at... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Once the trees are gone the soil rapidly becomes useless for farming if you do not feed it. The problem is not farming, but the lack of a cyclical system. The shit has to come back to the fields. Otherwise you deplete the soil, and since there's not much soil there to begin with you deplete it quickly. This is why "green revolution" farming threatens to starve us all over the long term; it is destroying cropland at an astounding rate. Not one person was fed that would have starved without green revolution farming techniques.

      The rainforests, of course, are building soil. Rainforests grow up and fall down so quickly they consume as much oxygen in decomposition as they produce through respiration, and are generally carbon-neutral. In the process they build humus, though, especially with nitrogen (if they're giving up their carbon into the atmosphere, what's left?)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    113. Re:Stopped reading at... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      and despite the ever-popular fairy-tale about the evil bankers foreclosing on the poor ignorant farmer, at the peak of the Great Depression they suffered a mere one tenth of the foreclosure rate we experienced just two years ago

      Remarkable how efficient the propaganda machine has become in the intervening 80 years.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    114. Re:Stopped reading at... by sorak · · Score: 1

      Exactly

      Do you know what else has poor soil? The Amazon Forest http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0502.htm

      It took me a moment to realize you weren't talking about the company. Damn, you internet!

    115. Re:Stopped reading at... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      They think differently, no matter how much BS the Greens and Liberals tell you - people in the 3rd world do NOT think or act like YOU.

      Sounds like you're in denial about just how utterly corrupt our own governments are. If we in the West needed aid, do you really think our governments and business leaders would keep their fingers out of that pot?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    116. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It didn't work in Afghanistan. Why should it work in Africa?

    117. Re:Stopped reading at... by Murasaki+Skies · · Score: 0

      Africa is actually about a tenth as rich per capita as you just claimed it was. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Africa

      --
      Waiiii!!!!!! I have bad karma!
    118. Re:Stopped reading at... by jessecurry · · Score: 1

      Yes. Unless he can be reasonably expected to find the descendants of the particular Jews that his grandfather stole from.

      --
      Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
    119. Re:Stopped reading at... by crazyjj · · Score: 1

      To do that kind of reform you need social, political and economic stability and a strong, relatively uncorrupt, government. Good luck finding that in some of the poorest countries in Africa.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    120. Re:Stopped reading at... by Murasaki+Skies · · Score: 0

      GP was off by a factor of about ten, so the U.S. is instead around 30 times as rich. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Africa [wikipedia.org]

      --
      Waiiii!!!!!! I have bad karma!
    121. Re:Stopped reading at... by BasilBrush · · Score: 0

      I wasn't asking a bunch of nerds for ideas, I was opposing the racist notion that "people in the 3rd world do NOT think or act like YOU."

      People with autism form a percentage of the population of every country, so that still isn't a differentiator. That's why I chose to phrase a definition of autism that way. Because it's a trait you exhibited - whether or not you have autism.

    122. Re:Stopped reading at... by pla · · Score: 1

      That is a load of dingo's kidneys. Rural farming communities, by contrast, were in a big fucking dustbowl where nothing would grow

      ...Which explains why, immediately following the hardships of the 1930s, America degenerated into a hellhole much like Africa today, a downward spiral from which we never recovered, right?

      I absolutely agree with you about the consequences of modern industrial agriculture, and that Africa very much must not take the Miracle-Gro approach if they want to improve the condition of their soil over the long term. But that had nothing to do with the Great Depression, and everything to do with overfarming a thin layer of topsoil covering a geologically-recently-reclaimed desert in a high-wind and low-water area.

    123. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically the statement is (or can be) true. There's no reason Africa couldn't have "some of the poorest" AND "some of the richest" soils at the same time.

      A lot of Africa has poor soil, and a lot of the more fertile areas are rainforests which we wouldn't want to advocate burning to the ground to turn into farmland. Africa also has more than a billion people to feed. So the question is still a reasonably valid one- how do you turn the large expanses of infertile wasteland into productive arable land?

      Birth Control .

      01000010 01101001 01110010 01110100 01101000 00100000 01000011 01101111 01101110 01110100 01110010 01101111 01101100 00100000 01000010 01101001 01110010 01110100 01101000 00100000 01000011 01101111 01101110 01110100 01110010 01101111 01101100 00100000 01000010 01101111 01110010 01110100 01101000 00100000 01000011 01101111 01101110 01110100 01110010 01101111 01101100 00100000

    124. Re:Stopped reading at... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This Anonymous Coward makes two very good points. There have been several studies that show that the basis for a society becoming more wealthy from top to bottom is having a government based on rule of law where the laws change slowly and apply mostly the same to everyone from top to bottom. An additional factor to that is that property has clear title and the mechanism for transferring ownership of land from one person to another is relatively easy to execute. Both of these situations are deteriorating in the U.S. and that deterioration is playing a significant role in our current economic problems.

      The second point he makes sounds racist the way he stated it, but it is not necessarily so (I do not know if he meant it in a racist way or not). He is correct that most people in 3rd world countries do not think or act like people in developed nations. This is not biological. It is not a product of their "race". It is cultural. They have learned to think the way they do because that is how things work in the countries they live in. They can learn to think and act differently. Of course, this does not mean that there are no aspects about the way that people in developing nations think that would improve the lives of those in developed nations were to learn to think that way.
      I have worked with an organization that works with the extremely poor in several developing nations. It was amazing to see what a difference was made over time because the leader of the organization dealt with the local governments assuming that once the rules were made, they would not change arbitrarily. The leader knew that such was not traditionally the case, but she was able to establish such a reputation with the locals that they were embarrassed to not live up to her expectations. Of course it also worked because she worked with those at the other end showing them that if they worked within the system, they would make more progress than if they went outside it. It also only worked because she limited the size of the organization to where she could establish a personal relationship with people at various levels.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    125. Re:Stopped reading at... by chill · · Score: 1

      Followed up by the next step is for Africa to stop shitting on itself. They have an unending line of thugs willing and eager to butcher their own populations and keep them in mud huts as long as the thugs get theirs.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    126. Re:Stopped reading at... by kidgenius · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between fault and responsibility. If your kid breaks something, it's not your fault but it is your responsibility. Likewise, you have a moral responsibility for the actions of your great, great, great, great, great grandfather, especially if to this day it's a great contribution to your wealth and the other's poorness. It's easy to say "Whatever, not my fault". You'd of course be right, but would it be fair?

      I have absolutely no natural responsibility for anything anyone else does. There are responsibilities that laws can put on me, such as paying to fix something my child breaks. But the only way of making me take responsibility for something someone else does is by making me "feel" guilty about it. If you can give me a good example of why it should be the responsibility for a person who feels no guilt, then you may have a point. Until then, you are just trying to shame people into doing something, but that doesn't work for the person who has no shame.

    127. Re:Stopped reading at... by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      Or bat guano!

      CAN YOU FEEL IT CAPTAIN COMPOST????

      For the filter... Yes it's yelling. It's a movie quote about Jim Carrey yelling.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    128. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You should look into the Dust Bowl. My grandparents (children during the Great Depression) were so scarred by the experience that they lived in a $3000 house and rarely spent money for anything (wearing shoes til you could see through them) saving like crazy their entire lives, even when they had saved nearly a million dollars.

      Farmers suffer from 2 things... poor climate/crops and poor commodities markets. The Dust Bowl was the former and the Great Depression was the latter. They only made it because of extreme poverty of lifestyle... things I, 3 generations removed, can barely comprehend.

    129. Re:Stopped reading at... by cayenne8 · · Score: 0
      Here's a thought for all the starving Africans.

      "MOVE to where the fucking food IS and can GROW!!"

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    130. Re:Stopped reading at... by RebelWithoutAClue · · Score: 1

      Foreign Aid, duh.

      --
      "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results" - Winston Churchill
    131. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gotta love how people think that because it's called "industrial farming" it has to be 'unsustainable' and 'EVIL'.
      The things that are put into the ground are the same as with 'organic' farming. Nitrates, acids and bases to balance the soil PH... etc. These are not unsustainable. Once the proper soil mix is made (50 parts clay, 20 parts sand, and 30 parts organic sponge - courtesy of weird_w) You could continue to farm using these methods indefinitely.
      In addition to the fact that the industrial farming method yields 3-5x more food per acre, can be accomplished by labor without access to modern farming machines (all except the harvesting, depending on the crop type).
      If you look at the chemicals used in modern techniques of farming, all the are is just a refinement of 'sustainable' farmings needs. Fertilizer = Poop (be it animal or human), fertilizer is just composted and irradiated (to kill bacteria) and smells much nicer than poop.
      You'd be surprised how much American farmland is left fallow because the government doesn't want farmers to overproduce (and thus kill the market) and all that has been done using "unsustainable" techniques (for 50+ years with NO significant change in soil chemistry).

      Don't try this at home... I'm an Agricultural specialist

    132. Re:Stopped reading at... by iter8 · · Score: 1

      Get the african nations to stop fighting each other

      Impossible. I was to going make some comments about the situation there but everything I wrote sounded racist. How do you address the fact that seems to be a clear pattern of behaviour in that continent that doesn't look like it will ever be solved while the locals are in charge?

      I'm not so sure things were better when the Europeans were running the show. The last 400 years of the history of sub-Saharan Africa was largely a world war against the local populations. The extent that some of the locals haven't gotten their act together in the last 50 to form stable governments can probably be traced to that history.

    133. Re:Stopped reading at... by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      Better yet, employ them for *non*-charity work. Either selling goods locally or exporting them. Charity is poisonous in that it increases standards of living without a persistent framework to back up those standards of living. If the charity dries up, people get a sudden drop in their standard of living, and if the charity has gone on long enough, they will have forgotten how to cope.

    134. Re:Stopped reading at... by residieu · · Score: 1

      Bartertown

    135. Re:Stopped reading at... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      ...Which explains why, immediately following the hardships of the 1930s, America degenerated into a hellhole much like Africa today, a downward spiral from which we never recovered, right?

      Pretty sure I declared the difference in the prior comment.

      But that had nothing to do with the Great Depression, and everything to do with overfarming a thin layer of topsoil covering a geologically-recently-reclaimed desert in a high-wind and low-water area.

      No, that's my point, overfarming led to the dust bowl that made the great depression Great.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    136. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps a better is solution is to get governments like the USA's to stop subsidizing crop destruction to keep food prices artificially high? Quit letting good food rot in the sun and send it to those in need? Just sayin...

    137. Re:Stopped reading at... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Followed up by the next step is for Africa to stop shitting on itself. They have an unending line of thugs willing and eager to butcher their own populations and keep them in mud huts as long as the thugs get theirs.

      Thugs whose organizations become large enough to become governments become governmental figures. When someone keeps stepping in to crap on whichever warlord becomes biggest for fear that they might have a nation one day, you get what we have now.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    138. Re:Stopped reading at... by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      Did you notice Europe a couple of hundred years ago? War is part of the human condition. We progress by finding ways around that.

    139. Re:Stopped reading at... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      There's a massive workforce available. People will work their butts off to feed themselves. Vast farming fields - don't need 'em. Let each family work their backyard.

      Seems to me they tried that in Cambodia once upon a time.

      And Zimbabwe too.

      Millions of people starved in the one, and the other turned from Africa's breadbasket to a place that needs massive food aid every year to avoid starvation....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    140. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe someone said it earlier, food production worldwide is sufficient to maintain the current human population; it's just poorly distributed.
      I find it hard to justify ending food delivery programs (that barely make a dent on the problem) with a wave of the hand and a "let them figure it out, we did a long time ago".

      There are many aspects that make the current situation in Africa radically different from the famine that hit Europe:
      * More people are affected.
      * Food is available, just not where it is needed.
      * Solutions that worked back then may not work at all.

      If we can help create a model that has a chance of being "sustainable", I say it is worth our while; let's increase the food programs to supplement them until they "work".

    141. Re:Stopped reading at... by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      The concern with fair trade is that 'fair trade' goods are increasingly produced by businesses rather than local farmers (as they advertise). Allegedly, by buying fair trade goods at first world prices the first world is supporting export-only businesses that 'rob' already starving nations of their food production. These businesses then use their comparatively vast wealth to buy the best available farmland to grow more food to ship off to the first world.

      Thus the 'distribution problem' is that fair trade food is being distributed as luxury goods to first world consumers who want to think they're supporting impoverished farmers.

    142. Re:Stopped reading at... by TFAFalcon · · Score: 2

      Eventually enough people will die that the wars themselves will die out. Sure if they are stubborn it might take a 99% die-off, but look on the bright side. Just hunting-gathering may be enough to sustain those people.

      The people who started wars in Europe were NOT the ones starving, just bored. Any yes, there were still wars - but they kept the population in check since farmers were prime targets - easy prey without the walls of castles and cities. So the farmers dies, food got scarce and things calmed down for a few years, since the local lord couldn't afford to pay enough soldiers to get revenge.

      In Africa you have wars and population GROWTH. So they kill of the farmers, destroy infrastructure AND have more babies - which join the warlords as soon as they can hold a rifle. Then the rest of the world ships in just enough food to keep the whole thing going.

      So why not isolate those countries? With no trade and no food going in, there soon won't be anything worth fighting for. Why fight for diamonds when there is nowhere to sell them? Why join the warlords when there is no food to steal? Just post international troops on the borders to keep the conflicts contained then wait them out.

      Or we could impose peace on them, then listen to another century about 'imperialist' outsiders.

    143. Re:Stopped reading at... by l00sr · · Score: 1

      For future reference: people who complain about not being able to say things for fear of sounding racist, are usually racists.

    144. Re:Stopped reading at... by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      I don't have to imagine. I can stay in the USA and find out live!

    145. Re:Stopped reading at... by tomhath · · Score: 1

      As to corruption, it's not a result of different thinking

      Yes, it is. Let's call it a learned behavior if you insist on using your personal definition of "think". But people who grow up in cultures where bribes are normal and expected will normally expect to be bribed. I'm not claiming bribery doesn't exist everywhere, but life is different in different countries.

      Here's a first hand example. My brother and I were in Mexico, he has a Mexican driver's license and was driving a car with Mexican license plates, but neither of us looks Mexican. We were pulled over by a cop for no apparent reason and told we needed to pay the equivalent of $50 or he would write several tickets. We paid him the bribe and he gave as a slip of paper with a number on it. If we were pulled over again that day all we needed to do was give that number to the other cop; the second cop would then get half of the $50 we paid to the first. That's just how they think in that country, it isn't wrong, it's normal.

    146. Re:Stopped reading at... by CycleMan · · Score: 1

      Agree there's a difference between fault and responsibility. Disagree with being responsible for the actions of people who lived and died during a timespan that I was incapable of influencing. I am responsible for my kid right now because he is a minor under my care. Once he becomes an adult, moves out of my house, and gets his own job, I hope he continues to follow the example I tried to set for him, but his mistakes will be his, and not my, responsibility. My grandfather -- nothing he did before I was born is my responsibility in any form.

    147. Re:Stopped reading at... by tqk · · Score: 1

      if it works, it becomes permanent. If it doesn't work, it's not a solution.

      I think that's a fairly narrow, and deficient, definition of "works". My definition of "works" is "makes the problem go away forever and can be maintained through the foreseeable future."

      The alternative is firefighting and bandaids.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    148. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I for one, would gladly give the ancestors of those that were taken into slavery back to Africa. I have the feeling current Africans wouldn't like that plan though.

    149. Re:Stopped reading at... by sjames · · Score: 1

      I am also the guy who is not a warlord responsible for the instability and bloodshed that creates the poverty. Some of those warlords look like they could feed a village for a week if you roast 'em.

    150. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's not that much of a stretch, or even all that racist, to suggest that in places where education levels are low, and illiteracy is rampant, people will "think differently" than you or me.

      It is not "racism" to note that these areas, due to government corruption and dire economic circumstances, provide generally-poor educational systems to a huge portion of the citizenry. It is also not "racism" to suggest that poor, uneducated people generally think about issues differently than you or I, and indeed have completely different sets of priorities and values. It might be racist to say "they're INCAPABLE" of learning to think differently, and it might be racist to say "they're INCAPABLE" of behaving differently, certainly.

      The mechanical process by which a neuron fires is the same. But to pretend that culture, education, societal norms, and personal values don't play a huge role in how someone thinks is just idiocy of the first order. Let's try not to assume that everybody who says anything negative about the current state of education and literacy in Africa is a racist.

    151. Re:Stopped reading at... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is. Let's call it a learned behavior if you insist on using your personal definition of "think".

      Let's not. Let's just accept it is a different cultural norm. People who come from countries with lots of street level corruption to a country where there isn't usually learn the new behaviour, and stop offering of expecting bribes. Likewise, people who go on expeditions that pass through corrupt countries tend to learn after a few hours waiting at a border crossing that the local cultural norm is to offer bribes and do it. And indeed your anecdote is exactly that.

      It's not about thinking different, nor is it some kind of learned behaviour that makes the people fundamentally different. People are the same, they're just in different cultural environments.

    152. Re:Stopped reading at... by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      The point is, that if the bandaid works for a period of more than about 24 hours, management will immediately decide that you need to work on something else, forget that you told them that this wasn't really the right thing to do, and your bandaid will be in place forever.

      One of the sillier examples of this:
      http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Fisher_Price_Technology_Integration.aspx

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    153. Re:Stopped reading at... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Want to help fix that? Stop buying Fairtrade products from Africa. Growing export crops (often ones that require a lot of water) takes farmland away from growing food for local consumption, which pushes the price up beyond the reach of the poorest people.

      This is so wrong. Staple crops, such as grain, tend to grow poorly in nitrogen depleted tropical soils. Export crops, such as fruit and vegetables, tend to do much better.

      Africa should try to follow the example of southern Mexico. In Chiapas, most farms grew corn on small plots, and it was the poorest state in Mexico. Today, the corn plots have been replaced by mango orchards. The mangoes are exported to the USA, and bring in ten times the income that the corn did. To make tortillas, they buy corn grown in Iowa. Everyone is better off.

      Africa needs more trade, not less. A lot more.

    154. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What????

    155. Re:Stopped reading at... by Americano · · Score: 1

      If history had been reversed and the US and Africa changed places I'm pretty sure my town would have warlords instead of councilmembers.

      And in your rush to relieve yourself of the discomfort of his perceived racism, you just underscored his point.

      In the west, in "first world" countries, we - on average - enjoy fairly high standards of wealth, education and privilege. This informs our world view. In the "third world" countries referenced by GP, people do not enjoy those same high standards of education and wealth, and that informs their world view. To suggest that one person who grew up affluent in modern day San Francisco and someone who grew up poor in modern day Mogadishu will view the world differently, and have different ways of viewing the world, is NOT racist.

      To claim that the person in San Francisco is "better" than the person in Mogadishu, simply because of the circumstances they were born into, or to claim that the person in Mogadishu "could never" achieve the things the person in San Francisco has because of where he was born would be racist. To suggest that two people born to very different circumstances in very different cultures, with widely differing educational standards will generally have different outlooks on the world, and different sets of priorities and values - that they will "think" differently than you, and "act" differently than you - is not a racist statement, it is an acknowledgement of the fact that your environment has a great deal of influence on you.

    156. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. DEY STOLE OUR JERBS, dem dirty chinamen and krauts!

    157. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, because people from vastly different cultures have the same responses and interpret ideas the exact same way. And love how quick you were to call someone a racist when your only response was to prop up a straw man then promptly knock it down. Aren't you the smart one.

    158. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck you.

      Sincerely,

      Humanity

      P.S. I hope you never know the suffering of a death by starvation.

    159. Re:Stopped reading at... by tqk · · Score: 1

      Soil fertility could be solved with existing knowledge from any number of sources, researched, correlated to local conditions, optimized for cost.... oops, when you go to implement it, that's when you hit the interesting issues.

      Even before that. Even if you sort out the human problem, how do you ship truckloads of dirt back and forth across Africa? Bucket lines of peasants, or is that going to take fuel? The problem appears to be a combination of human nature and logistics. So far, the solution appears to be:

      i) fertilizer to produce crops for food now.

      ii) fuel (and the will) to enable shipping dirt back and forth across Africa.

      iii) shoot all the Mugabes who turn up in the meantime.

      iv) Profit! If it works in Africa, it could work everywhere.

      If we're so smart, why hasn't sumfin like the Koch Bro's shown up to create "The /. Thinktank" to solve all the world's ills?

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    160. Re:Stopped reading at... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      China turned the loess plataue from a moonscape into one of the largest apple producving regions in the world in under 20yrs. The area is about the size of France and was previuously known as "the most erroded place on Earth".

      Where? Sounds interesting.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    161. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose insects would probably use this strategy as well.

      I guess if you want to behave like a fucking bug, we can just give up on the situation entirely.

      I choose to believe there's a solution that doesn't necessarily involve huge mass-grave sites. Kudos to those working to find a solution to this very real problem.

    162. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is why forest coverage in large parts of the United States is growing today right?

    163. Re:Stopped reading at... by tqk · · Score: 1

      North America, 23 separate countries some very warlike one who has been involved in most international wars, with no unifying structure ....seems to be mostly doing OK

      You do realize that the point of all of this is to communicate, yes? So, what did you actually mean by that?

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    164. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Africa's colonial period counts as the only part of its history (post-Egypt, itself an exception due to the Nile and Mediterranean) where it had any meaningful level of economic output.

      I find this a quite racist statement. It's almost equivalent to saying that they were savages before we whites came and plundered everything to hell. Don't forget that Africa had thriving kingdoms at one point. If you want to claim that Africa had no economy before white people came, please back that claim up with something tangible.

      And in response to:

      Impossible. I was to going make some comments about the situation there but everything I wrote sounded racist. How do you address the fact that seems to be a clear pattern of behaviour in that continent that doesn't look like it will ever be solved while the locals are in charge?

      That IS racist. Don't you see that you really believe that Africans are inferior? The problems in Africa are the fault of Europe and America, by and large. Corrupt leaders are largely there due to proxy wars in the Cold War and the difficult progression from colonialism. How would you like to be taught from the time of your birth, by people of a different color, that you are inferior and that your language and culture are stupid, in a time when the ruling class were genuinely disgusted by those with dark skin? None of this would have happened if The Scramble For Africa never happened. All because Europeans were getting more and more greedy.

      IANAA (I Am Not An African) but I believe the collision of African and European culture over the last few hundred years was a very unfortunate one, and will be an important blemish in history forever. It's no worse than the Holocaust, possibly worse.

      Ask not "Am I racist?", but rather "How can I deconstruct my racism?". Face it, at some level every white person born in a European-derived society (America I'm looking at you) is racist. It's not your fault, you have been taught by generations upon generations of evil.

    165. Re:Stopped reading at... by MrKettlePot · · Score: 1

      If you can make it a profitable venture, companies can spring up in those areas and employ local citizens to dig up this stuff and ship it around. Obviously just feeding an entire country is a terrible plan because all the local farmers would have no sales and the local infrastructure supporting farming would dry up but this could be a real solution.

    166. Re:Stopped reading at... by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      An honest question...why respond to a comment without even fucking reading it?

      I read it, but I just don't believe it. It was essentially telling people to quit their jobs and become sustenance farmers again. I doubt if a farmer can make more growing food rather than a cash crop, they would continue to grow the cash crop. Plus, they only suggested stopping the purchase of Fairtrade goods, but not explotativly raised non-fairtrade goods, as if that would help anybody but the few who don't give a rat's ass about those working for them to begin with. I highly doubt that cutting off people from outside trade and making them all sustenance farmers hoping they don't starve with the next season is the answer.

    167. Re:Stopped reading at... by paiute · · Score: 1

      If history had been reversed and the US and Africa changed places I'm pretty sure my town would have warlords instead of councilmembers.

      And in your rush to relieve yourself of the discomfort of his perceived racism, you just underscored his point.

      The cry that "But they are different from us" has always been the first step in the dehumanization of the other.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    168. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think this makes a lot of sense, particularly w.r.t. Fair Trade. While it may or may not work, the idea behind Fair Trade is that the people growing an harvesting the crops get paid a fair wage, so they can buy food. That's what we do everywhere else, and it's a sound way to do things.

      Should New Mexico grow beans instead of peppers? Should should France grow wheat instead of grapes? No, because the specialty crops are unique and valuable and the food items are commodities. Likewise, Yergecheffe should grow coffee, because it's uniquely good and commands high prices across the world.

      You can certainly argue that Fair Trade or other approaches aren't working, and the people and land are thereby being exploited unsustainably. (I don't know myself how well Fair Trade works.) But food crops aren't very profitable, so if you can do something more profitable with a piece of land, you do it, whether it's specialty crops like coffee, or mining for tantalum, or whatever. Growing food crops instead will not prevent the corruption that causes more profitable activities to cause problems.

    169. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because the US never had any African countries directly under our control doesn't mean that the US didn't participate in luting the continent of it's valuable natural resources. The only difference is that instead of governing the countries ourselves, we find some local, brutal dictator and keep him well stocked with all the weapons he needs to stay in power. Then we let our corporations go in and do the dirty work.

      I fail to see how supporting a corrupt local government so they'll rubber stamp whatever our corporations want to take is not stealing.

    170. Re:Stopped reading at... by Americano · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but that's your own sensitivity looking for a reason to be offended. It's not "dehumanizing" to note that people from vastly different backgrounds will think differently, value differently, and prioritize differently, and that those differences will result in them behaving differently than YOU might expect them to.

      To assume that they are "the same as me in all respects," is just as fallacious as to suggest that they are "worse than me in all respects."

      What the AC noted was that, "The problem is the governments, or rather dictators." Do you disagree? Instead of shouting about how he's a racist, why don't you tell us what the problem is, and why so much foreign aid never reaches the people who need it in Africa?

    171. Re:Stopped reading at... by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Not just that. Initiatives like Fairtrade have made a lot of farmers shift from growing food for local consumption to growing things like roses and coffee for export. Guaranteeing a price above the market value of these crops made them a lot more lucrative.

      Thing is, I don't believe you. You sounds like a free market wing nut, but I went to check out Fairtrade stuff over on Wikipedia. Certainly it seems at first to be what you say as the body of the description talks a great deal about how only exporters get an more money for the same product just to put the Fairtrade label on stuff. However, when I started clicking on links to the actual groups that certify Fairtrade (and there are lots of them and I didn't check them all), they all seem to have a mechanism to make sure that the actual farmers and workers share in that money. Even the WTO standard has social elements in it to make sure the growers share in the money. I sense more free market wing nuts playing around with Wilipedia to prove their point.

      Still, I don't care much more than to look that much up, because I put my vote to Africa needing some sort of stable government and society first before any aid, market forces, or plan could take effect. We could feed all of them already for free, and probably would, if we could be sure the food would actually go to feeding starving people.

    172. Re:Stopped reading at... by Americano · · Score: 1

      It's not about thinking different, nor is it some kind of learned behaviour that makes the people fundamentally different.

      Person1: "I think bribes and corruption are normal, and okay, because I grew up in a country where that's the norm."

      Person2: "I think bribes and corruption are abnormal, and not okay, because I grew up in a country where that's not the norm."

      Yep, both of those people think identically! Why, it's amazing you can even distinguish one person from another, their positions are so identical.

      Nobody has said that "thinking differently" means that someone is inferior, or incapable of changing the way they think. But - given the two hypothetical statments above - to assert that Person 1 and Person 2 do not "think differently" on the issue of bribes and corruption is just ludicrous. Nobody here is saying that "Africans are inherently oriented towards bribes and corruption, because they're bad people."

      Instead of freaking out over whether or not you agree with his particular word choice, why don't you consider the actual issue at hand, which is, as he rightly pointed out, a problem of corrupt dictators in charge largely squandering foreign aid money. It's comforting to shout about somebody else's racism, but it'd be more productive to actually talk about the problem.

    173. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fairtrade certified product are usually grown in a sustainable way. With crops in particular, you need to export in order to meet the rest of your needs. I've seen land in Africa become fertile after terraforming. When the land becomes green, the climate changes to becomes more capable of producing the rainfall neccessary to produce more crops.

    174. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Things that they couldn't grow or raise themselves, they can, through export at a fair price, afford to buy from someone else. Interdependance is part of living successfully in a global community.

    175. Re:Stopped reading at... by Optic7 · · Score: 1

      "We" (we being the west) cannot fix Africa short of turning it into east Carolina. They need to come up with their own functional modes of government and funding, whatever those are, on their own. The people have no chance when their local tinpot dictators are being propped up by someone with 100x their power and economy.

      Good points, but let's give them a chance. They're working on it, but it will take a while. Didn't most countries in Africa only break away from colonial rule in the last 60 years or so? Here's a NY Times article from a couple of days ago describing the slow progress they are making toward being stable democracies, which would be a first step toward making the improvements you mention: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/world/africa/africas-steady-steps-toward-democracy.html

    176. Re:Stopped reading at... by paiute · · Score: 1

      Instead of shouting about how he's a racist, why don't you tell us what the problem is, and why so much foreign aid never reaches the people who need it in Africa?

      I never wrote, let alone shouted, that the original commenter was racist. You injected that into the conversation.

      Africa has many problems. Africans being different kinds of human beings from me is not one of them.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    177. Re:Stopped reading at... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Hate to Godwin this, but do you also think it's ok for the grandchildren of a Nazi to keep the gold their grandfather stole from Jews in WWII?

      When you start doing that you open a can of worms. Here's a counter-Godwin: wasn't one of Hitler's premises that the Jews had effectively stolen their wealth from the hard-working Germans through high interest rates, economic conspiracy, etc? That idea is just as "right" as yours.

      We can't punish people for distasteful things their ancestors did, and whatever you may think taking someone's gold away from them is a punishment that dramatically affects their wealth and well-being (material and emotional).

    178. Re:Stopped reading at... by westlake · · Score: 1

      The wealthy coastal cities, whose economies and interests had largely separated from agriculture, suffered horribly; Rural farming communities, by contrast, barely noticed anything had changed

      Rural states saw damn little of the post-war prosperity of the 1920s. and were in deep trouble before the Great Depression of the mid-thrties.

      In Iowa 167 banks closed in 1920. That number rose to 505 in 1921.The Great Depression Begins ---- in the 1920s

      Farming is increasingly mechanized and commercial. Framers are raising crops for sale in distant urban and foreign markets. To remain competitive demands more land, paved roads, trucks and tractors.

      All of this costs money.

      Wartime subsidies are gone. New trade barriers make export difficult .

      Workers are abandoning agriculture for better paying jobs, homes and apartments in the city. The ten hour day. Electric light. Gas heat. Radio, the movies, and the flivver...

    179. Re:Stopped reading at... by Americano · · Score: 1

      I never wrote, let alone shouted, that the original commenter was racist.

      It's implied in every comment you made, about "dehumanizing the other." Don't be obtuse.

      Africa has many problems. Africans being different kinds of human beings from me is not one of them.

      Pathetic straw man argument. That's not what was said, what was said is that they THINK differently from you - as a result of growing up and living in a completely different social and cultural environment, that is to be expected. Nobody ever said that they're "inhuman" - that's just your kneejerk over-reaction to an imagined slight.

    180. Re:Stopped reading at... by dwye · · Score: 1

      Tropical rainforest is usually terrible soil, after the rainforest is removed. The lost cities of the Amazon basin (seen by early Spanish soldiers escaping down the river, and apparently gone by the time that explorers started up the river) apparently had long-term programs to improve the soil in certain areas, but this will not help much if you try growing in large farms rather than individual gardens.

      BTW, North America has some of the poorest soils on Earth, as well, if you look in the wrong places (our back yard, for instance :-). The poster is fishing for one-sided comments from a site whose members have to think twice before remembering that corn has kernels, too. Ask at an Ag school, not here.

    181. Re:Stopped reading at... by dwye · · Score: 1

      Peace and solving hunger are largely orthogonal, as the 18th and 19th scientific farming in Western Europe demonstrated. In fact, they may well be inversely related; Prussia wasn't a danger to its neighbors until the potato and black (vs white) bread solved its hunger problems, and the Irish Catholics killed few Irish Protestants during the Potato Famine despite the Protestants refusing to serve their grain unless the Catholics read a bit from the Bible in Irish, rather than Latin.

      People who insist on peace as a pre-condition to solving other conflicts simply demonstrate that they either do not really want to solve the problem, or else that they want to have the Final Solution to the population problem without the guilt.

    182. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's the case of our moral high-ground and what we say we stand for as it contrasts with slavery and emerging industrial age atrocities (i.e. the railroads). If we were theocratic jerks and localized tribal strongmen, nobody would give a shit.

    183. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, actually. I for one subscribe to the statute of limitations. That means that whoever was wronged has 35 years maximum to right that wrong, and this has been massively lengthened for Jewish victims of WWII (mainly because the states did not want to pay the legal amounts : they preferred paying out small amounts over a long term rather than paying the prescribed ~50000 euros per dead body in 1945, so really it's not the Jews to blame here, it's the 'lets make the kids pay for this' attitude in politics).

      If not, it's not wrong anymore. WWII is history, dead and buried. If it still influences your life that is, frankly, a psychological problem that needs to be treated.

      These descendants were not really wronged, even though it must be said Jewish culture ... let's put this delicately ... has not forgiven anyone. The great-grandchildren of people who were wronged during the war claim that fact is the sole determining factor of their lives ...

      Do we really want to support that ? Do you think perpetuating this is healthy ?

      I do have a bit of an issue with forcing Jews to the forefront of the holocaust. The holocaust was essentially a way for nazi germany to pay for it's national health care system and, of course, it's wars. The first victims were terminally ill-but-won't-be-dead-for-a-long-time patients. Then came comatose patients. Then long-term ill patients. Then long-term psychological inmates. It goes on and on until they would kill you if whatever you had put you in a wheelchair for longer than 2 months (ie. anything worse than a broken leg). Then POWs, then ... it would take about a year from that point until the decision was made to do this to Jews (and confiscate their property, aside from islamic law nazi germany is the only country that regulated "sanctioned" theft, with extreme punishments for those who were caught stealing without given the proceeds to the state) and -often forgotten- this was done with the help of local pre-war "Jewish councils". Stating the holocaust targeted Jews is one of those truly damned lies, one of those statements that is doubly horrible : first, it is the truth, but it is a truth that implies a lie (that it only targeted Jews, or that it had religious causes) obscures much other truth and simplifies a complex situation into a soundbite that essentially tells a lie.

      The holocaust didn't target Jews. It prevented a state that was at war from going broke. It started by executing "expensive" patients, then moved on to undesirable patients, then moved on to politically undesirable classes, not just Jews.

    184. Re:Stopped reading at... by JosephTX · · Score: 1

      Actually, rainforests do have poor soil for farming. All nutrients are quickly absorbed by the flora, so even after (god forbid) deforestation, the resulting land is in poor condition to sustain the mass production of crops.

    185. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've actually just published a novel based on this very topic - set in Malawi, no less!
      It is an action/adventure story about a superhero trying to do something about extreme poverty. While writing it I did a lot of research into the problem, and came to the conclusion that, as the parent post states, the key factor for longterm reduction of poverty and starvation is getting a stable govornment based on the rule of law. One possible way to acheive that is a major plot point in the book ('Mr Something', by J H Baker - available on Amazon).

    186. Re:Stopped reading at... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Africa is suffering desertification

      'their' water seems to be building up in Antarctica as ice pack. Three miles thick in places, the coastlines that are under glaciers now show up on ancient maps before the Sahara desertified.

      The warmingists are afraid that rising temperatures will cause desertification - there's a chance they might have that backwards.

      Get the african nations to stop fighting each other over tarot roots, and get them to ship dirt to each other.

      Great idea - let's get them some fast-breeder-reactor powered trains too.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    187. Re:Stopped reading at... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Africa: 50+ warring nations with penis envy problems, and no unifying structure at all.

      So, like South America, plus war?

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    188. Re:Stopped reading at... by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      No they simply told the locals that if they wanted to be part of the land grants then they must keep their goats in pens or get rid of them, along with other conditions such as planting trees on steep land (which encouraged people to plant orchards). Ferral goats were shot on sight by locals who were hired as rangers by the project. Given that this is China, the government could quite simply have banned goats on state land and shot any disobedient goat hearders on sight. But no culling scheme is as effective as changing local habits that go back 1000yrs. Now that it's been running for 20yrs even the most bitter traditionalists in the local population cannot deny the benificial transformation that has occured.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    189. Re:Stopped reading at... by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Follow the youtube link I provided.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    190. Re:Stopped reading at... by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Regardless of the level of corruption, weak governments are never stable.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    191. Re:Stopped reading at... by paiute · · Score: 1

      I never wrote, let alone shouted, that the original commenter was racist.

      It's implied in every comment you made, about "dehumanizing the other." Don't be obtuse.

      Ridiculous. You have totally missed the point.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    192. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what about those people that do not have back yards?

    193. Re:Stopped reading at... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I highly doubt that cutting off people from outside trade and making them all sustenance farmers hoping they don't starve with the next season is the answer.

      They need their soil to grow their own food. The answer is to employ them in some other fashion. Go there, set up a business, come back, reap the rewards. Microloans, small businesses, funding member of a co-op. Distributed wealth that is more difficult to take away than when it is centered with a single farmer who can't fight the lamest of warlords anyway. Without an armed populace the people can't resist if they want to. Many if not most African nations have restrictive firearms laws and punitive enforcement practices that result in a largely disarmed populace with the effect that only criminals are reliably well-armed. Just more cases of malicious government intervention designed to cause harm.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    194. Re:Stopped reading at... by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      Oh, I'm completely willing to wait and let them figure it out. I just think that the current aid structure is actively retarding their progress. Not as bad as when all the aid was tired to the communism/democracy proxy wars, but still pretty unhelpful.

    195. Re:Stopped reading at... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Thanks

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    196. Re:Stopped reading at... by Americano · · Score: 1

      Ridiculous. You have totally missed the point.

      Then you have failed to make your point clear. Because what you said, and what you *think* you said are apparently not related in any way. All you've done is assert that it's "dehumanizing" to acknowledge that different values, priorities, and ways of thinking arise in different social & economic circumstances. Nobody has said that "different" = "inhuman," yet that's exactly what you assumed in order to reach your conclusions about dehumanization.

    197. Re:Stopped reading at... by dontclapthrowmoney · · Score: 1

      Capitalism (and greed) always wins, so if a person in any country makes a product of any kind that people would want to own/consume, the global market tends to set the price. All Fair Trade does is work within the current system to make sure some of those proceeds go back to the people doing the work.

      The main impact of intentionally not buying Fair Trade is that the few locals who currently get a decent share of the proceeds of the export of these goods would have to go back to working for peanuts. Those crops will be exported either way, if the price is right.

      The "local production for local consumption reduces local prices" argument doesn't work for products with a high demand, like food - or petrol. http://politics.slashdot.org/story/12/03/22/226200/domestic-drilling-doesnt-decrease-gasoline-prices

      Now, I said Fair Trade works within the current system to make sure some of the proceeds go back to the people who do the work - that wasn't an endorsement of the current system. I'd like to see Fair Trade selling more non-food items, the manufacturing requirements of these would require building local infrastructure - maybe that's a next step for them.

    198. Re:Stopped reading at... by billcopc · · Score: 1

      This is the problem with ANY human development. Money gets in the way. Money, as much as the Rothschilds and Rockefellers would like you to believe, is NOT a tangible resource. It is not work. It is not food. It is not building materials. It certainly is not intellect. It is a psychological weapon.

      If the world really wanted to feed Africa, it would be done. Money would not be a factor. If we knew what to do, how to do it, and had the appropriate resources to accomplish it, it could get done. You need trucks ? Okay, boat some trucks over from Germany. You need fuel ? Hello, middle east! You need labour ? I see a billion people with nothing better to do than help us help them.

      Who's paying for all this ? Who cares ? What's the goal ? Are we trying to help humanity move forward, or are we solely concerned with moving numbers around on a spreadsheet ?

      Money is the worst religion of all, because it is the only worshipped deity that is proven, by definition, to not exist.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    199. Re:Stopped reading at... by billcopc · · Score: 1

      The problem I see with NGOs is they are still, on some level, a business. They deal with money. The money is what causes all the problems.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    200. Re:Stopped reading at... by billcopc · · Score: 1

      People want to fight MORE when they're unhappy (for instance, starving) than when they are content (for instance, well-fed).

      Explain America.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    201. Re:Stopped reading at... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      The solution is tricky. It isn't a matter of giving food away. It isn't even a matter of teaching modern methods of agriculture

      The important part of the equation is that there must be some throttling of the birth rate. Despite the expected howls of disagreement, the people in many of these areas are surviving as a group by having a lot of children. When we save those children, they survive and reproduce at the same cultural level. The end result is a huge increase in population, and eventually what you were trying to stop happens anyhow.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    202. Re:Stopped reading at... by lxw56 · · Score: 1

      Soil organic matter is essential to the soil holding water. The problem with modern fertilizers is the carbon-nitrogen balance. Nitrogen fertilizer also fertilizes soil life, which consumes soil organic matter and eliminates it as CO2. Sustainable farming practices increase soil organic matter, increasing the soil's water-carrying capacity.

    203. Re:Stopped reading at... by Zanadou · · Score: 1

      Trade big shipments of river silt (organic sponge), heavy clay, and washed sand. Plow it into unproductive fields that are suffering deficits.

      It's what plants crave!!

    204. Re:Stopped reading at... by jpapon · · Score: 1

      Americans don't fight wars. America's military fights wars. The two are very much disconnected, since the average citizen never feels the effects of the wars, whether that's through paying for them (taxes), sacrificing for them (rationing a la WW2), or actually fighting in them.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    205. Re:Stopped reading at... by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how supporting a corrupt local government so they'll rubber stamp whatever our corporations want to take is not stealing.

      This describes governments everywhere.

    206. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "destroying"? You make it sound like Africa hasn't been heavily fucked over for centuries.

    207. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is correct that most people in 3rd world countries do not think or act like people in developed nations. This is not biological. It is not a product of their "race". It is cultural.

      Well, sometimes it's biological, but not genetic. A childhood of malnutrition (and parasites and other tropical diseases and so on) can cause a permanent IQ deficit.

    208. Re:Stopped reading at... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Don't be silly, Detroit isn't tropical.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    209. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats not an option and it wasn't for allot of The Midwest during the 30's, look up the Dustbowl

      While we're on the subject of looking things up...

    210. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the question is still a reasonably valid one- how do you turn the large expanses of infertile wasteland into productive arable land?

      Just use fossil fuels to run industry, farming equipment, and information economies! I mean gas is cheap and Africa has computers, right? Or I know, give them a credit monopoly and allow them to function under a supranational military-economic structure that gives there currency value and undermines competitors at any cost! Oh why not let them take over foreign lands by conquest and enslave the peoples they decimate? That has worked out well for some people in the past.

      Any of those means ought to work out just fine for THEM and get THEM nice and fat like US.

      TFA in my words is that African leaders are tasked with deciding between subsidizing organic farming techniques and conventional ones. Organic farming is less reliant on fossil fuels because you don't need chemical fertilizers or as intense tilling, but it is more labor-intensive, takes longer to implement, and for now is less cost-effective than conventional techniques. Conventional really isn't--it means conventionally adopted by agricultural business giants, technologies like chemical fertilizers (mined and produced from natural gas), economies of scale (of farms and farming equipment), pesticides, herbicides, genetic modification, etc. It is cheap right now because fossil fuels are cheap. Rising food prices in the US and especially produce prices can at least be partially attributed to rising energy costs. Some UN organization is lobbying the Africans to go with the organic approach.

      The Organic choice makes more sense to me, though climate change will wreak havoc on either system and it is important either way to invest in irrigation infrastructure. Organic farming does require a lot of land though, and just because it doesn't harm the land's production ability to the same extent doesn't mean it is a solution to the problem of population growth.

      If you want to know how this will play out look to Cuba during what Cubans call The Special Period . The fall of the Soviet economy took Cuba's down with it, especially with regard to food and oil imports. Cuba's oil consumption in By necessity and government mandate, organic farming practices and mass transit were greatly expanded. Permaculture farming techniques were introduced to replace petroleum-dependent techniques. The Cubans sort of just made it, by most accounts. Average weight and caloric intake dropped significantly for a couple of years, lots of people previously employed in other fields, even academia, farmed because they had to. Lots of land that previously wasn't devoted to farming all of a sudden had to be for people to survive. But survive they did.

    211. Re:Stopped reading at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of this reminds me of the bogus, misplaced effort of the Toms Shoes variety. You know - the guy who's margin on cheaply made shoes is so high, he donates a pair for African charity, for every pair your daughter buys in the Westfield Centre.

      Put your factory there! Employ Africans, and use the charity-profits to train local entreperneurship to become your next competitor! Teach a man to fish, fer godsake!

      If Toms had built a factory in Africa, they'd have been hammered in the press for outsourcing jobs in the midst of an American recession.

      It's a no-win scenario.

  2. Solution by larppaxyz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Birth control.

    1. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      or just stop feeding them. let the population adjust naturally to the food supply. keep on feeding them with no infrastructure = more starving people not less.

    2. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's a false economy. Who's going to make our cheap stuff when the Chinese become too expensive?

    3. Re:Solution by Aryden · · Score: 1

      Mexico. The prices may be slightly higher when dealing with drug cartels, but we would start saving on trans-pacific shipping.

    4. Re:Solution by davester666 · · Score: 1

      You racist, freedom-hating person.

      Unless you have the right to pop out as many children as you possibly can, in the hopes that some of them will live long enough to get to the stage where they will be able to scratch together enough money to support you through begging, you don't have true freedom.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    5. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You clearly haven't been paying attentions. Mexico was a manufacturing center 15 years ago, but even they got too expensive for our need of cheap shit at any (non-monetary) cost. China fulfills that today. Indonesia will probably fill in for a bit, but after that we're screwed. We may actually have to build our own products, pay our citizens to do it, and settle for less, oh no!

    6. Re:Solution by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      That doesn't feed many people that are hungry now. And even on a one-child policy like China (if enforceable) their population will continue to grow for a long time.

    7. Re:Solution by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Mouth control.

      How about you control your mouth.

      As I said, people are not a drain on the system, they are a resource.

      Maybe if the foreign countries stopped sponsoring dictators around the world and giving them weapons there would be less of a problem around the world as well.

      Next best thing foreign countries can do is leave Africa to itself and also reduce subsidies to domestic farmers. Let the real market work and all of a sudden Africa will become a net food exporter.

    8. Re:Solution by vipw · · Score: 2

      The obvious form of birth control is female education. What kind of crazy person would suggest a one-child policy?

    9. Re:Solution by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      That's not the point. Indeed education lowers birth rate, but even if you get it down to one child per woman immediately (which is what such legislation would accomplish), there are so many young people that your population continues to grow. China experienced just that, too. That it's not a good legistlation - sure, but that's not the point here.

    10. Re:Solution by outsider007 · · Score: 1

      Counter proposal: Cannibalism.

      --
      If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
    11. Re:Solution by JumperCable · · Score: 1

      Ahhhh, now I understand the whole Koney 2012 campaign. I didn't think he was a hero at first.

    12. Re:Solution by jrumney · · Score: 1

      but even if you get it down to one child per woman immediately (which is what such legislation would accomplish)

      It didn't accomplish that in China, so what makes you think it would accomplish it in Africa? When you look at the figures, China's birthrate fell only slightly faster than other Asian countries. The one thing that brings a birthrate down is economic growth, and the education and healthcare improvements that come with it.

    13. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The obvious form of birth control is female education.

      It is not so obvious. In fact it works through an elaborate scheme:
      - education is preparation for professional engagement in life.
      - higher education typically means higher income.
      - women's carrier takes a hit if she decides to have children.
      - unintended(?) consequence is that women are rewarded for being educated but this reward is revoked if they have children.

      Now, there is an obvious flaw to this scheme: in most African cultures it isn't inappropriate for mothers to carry children with them to work and to nurse them in public. So, while it works perfectly in thwarting natality of Europeanized societies it doesn't have to work at all if important underlying presumptions are met.

    14. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They could always eat the babies, killing two birds with one stone :)

    15. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Birth control.

      Too slow.

      Try genocide. Yes, yes, it's cruel, a "war crime" (whatever that is), and those nasty Nazis gave it such a bad name. It's also quite effective. No people means no people to feed. And think of how low Africa's carbon footprint would be!

      (Horrible joke post? Insane racist rant? You make the call!)

    16. Re:Solution by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      Education won't stop rape.

    17. Re:Solution by SirGarlon · · Score: 2

      Absolutely, choose the "unsustainable" quick road to development. Undeveloped countries have high birth rates. Developed countries have low birth rates. Once the people are all comparatively rich they will *demand* birth control. Then their population will stabilize and they can start buying organic lattes, driving hybrid cars, and generally hugging trees like I do.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    18. Re:Solution by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      Why do they have to compete on international markets? There are food shortages in Africa, so there is obviously a demand for food. Sure they won't be able to afford modern machinery or fertilizers, so the production will be low (think medieval Europe). But they can still feed themselves and a few other families. So why don't they?

    19. Re:Solution by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      How very Modest.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    20. Re:Solution by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Take it one step further: deadly wars.

      Better still: government that gives you a choice: exercise birth control or be sent into deadly combat.

      Would make a great book, not sure I want to live there.

    21. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China's law accomplished exactly what it set out to accomplish - producing more male than female children. The law was never about population control in general, it was about increasing the male to female ratio by reducing the number of females because they aren't considered fit for the military or politics (the military being of prime importance in China along with the ruling Communist Party).

      Until fairly recently (as in the last 25 years or so), they didn't even rate females as deserving an education beyond what is needed to run a household to raise more males.

    22. Re:Solution by sorak · · Score: 1

      So, you don't want to live in a country with birth control, because it is a slippery slope to forced combat.

      Mr. Santorum, is that you?

    23. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the solution is tyranny? Forcing everybody else to do something (stop subsidies) just so one particular group of people can feed themselves?

    24. Re:Solution by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Tyranny is what is done to the people right now, that they are forced to buy food at higher prices due to the subsidies with their own tax money, so they are robbed twice: first time when they are forced to pay taxes (or money is printed and it's a tax) and then the second time, when they are forced to buy more expensive food.

    25. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonsense. People are not forced to buy food. They are willingly paying those prices, willingly paying taxes, set by officials they willingly elected and accepted

      If they really don't like it, they can go through the due process and change their government. Heck, they can ignore the due process and start a revolution if they really want, but most people aren't trying, so obviously they are still content with the way things are.

      What you propose is to force people who are otherwise content with the way things are, to do something else, just so some other people in another part of the world get to feed themselves.

      Sorry, but you're talking about America, the Randean paradise where everybody is looking out for themselves, not starving children in another country they never heard of and probably can't even locate on a map/globe.

    26. Re:Solution by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. People are not forced to buy food

      - in the same sense that they are not really forced to breath either.

      d. They are willingly paying those prices, willingly paying taxes, set by officials they willingly elected and accepted

      - I agree with you, but it all is to a point, at some point the balance is off so much that they stop paying taxes and stop paying prices and stop electing people and instead they take the gov't down. It's not a revolutionary concept *pun intended*.

      What you propose is to force people who are otherwise content with the way things are, to do something else, just so some other people in another part of the world get to feed themselves.

      - no, you again do not understand the issue.

      Subsidy takes money away from the payers of those taxes (whoever they are) and then this money is given to somebody to run an otherwise unprofitable business, which implies, that the end product is unsustainable if there was no subsidy.

      This means that it's not about somebody in another part of the world, it's about these very people who are getting robbed by taxes and subsidies.

      The fact that by ending this nonsensical behaviour, there would be multiple winners, including some people half way around the world, just proves how stupid the people who support this system while not directly being involved in the governing process are (and no, people who are not politicians and those who do not run the Federal reserve, Treasury and the biggest banks, military industrial complex are not involved in the governing process).

      Sorry, but you're talking about America, the Randean paradise where everybody is looking out for themselves, not starving children in another country they never heard of and probably can't even locate on a map/globe.

      - but that's the problem, they have abandoned the Randian ideas (if they ever had them, which would be strange, people don't abandon real convictions of that type).

      They never had principles and they never really thought through much and they probably don't even have the ability to think through it, with the gov't sponsored propaganda-education system and all.

      These people are in the Matrix, they are convinced it's the real deal.

    27. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - in the same sense that they are not really forced to breath either.

      Not in the same sense at all. People can grow their own food instead of buying it from others. They can leave the country and live in places where food is cheaper. The choice is theirs.

      - I agree with you, but it all is to a point, at some point the balance is off so much that they stop paying taxes and stop paying prices and stop electing people and instead they take the gov't down. It's not a revolutionary concept *pun intended*.

      I already said that they could revolt if they really don't like how things are, so yes you are agreeing with me totally, not just up to a point.

      - no, you again do not understand the issue. ...it's about these very people who are getting robbed by taxes and subsidies.

      No, YOU don't understand.

      The people are only LETTING themselves get robbed. But when you're letting people rob you, is it really robbery?

      They have the power to stop it, even if it means revolution like you agreed with me. But they don't, so even if it is robbery, it's their own fault, and not a issue for the rest of us.

      Let them (the American people) decide for themselves what the issue is, and what to do about it. Clearly, they (the American people) don't care, as they keep on paying taxes and keep on giving subsidies.

      The fact that by ending this nonsensical behaviour, there would be multiple winners,

      Again, this is the Randean paradise called America. Americans don't care that there would be multiple winners. They only care if *they themselves* are the winners.

      Compared to Africa, everybody in America is already a winner. As such, there's no incentive for Americans to change their ways even if it would increase winners in Africa... especially not when some existing winners (the politicians and farmers receiving subsidies) might win less

      It would take some mighty tyranny to force a whole population of free thinking people (who many of them own firearms!) to think and act differently.

      - but that's the problem, they have abandoned the Randian ideas (if they ever had them, which would be strange, people don't abandon real convictions of that type).

      No, they are Randeans to the core. They never abandoned their convictions. Americans have always and still do only care about themselves. They don't care if Africans are starving. They care about their farmers getting subsidies, their banks getting bail outs, their politicians getting kick backs, etc.

      They never had principles and they never really thought through much and they probably don't even have the ability to think through it, with the gov't sponsored propaganda-education system and all.

      Nah Americans always held on to principles. Again, they still only care about themselves. That's their principle, perfectly align with Rand's rational self interest. Their self-interested education system is nothing short of resounding success, as it has raised generations of equally self-interested Americans who continue to keep their self-interested subsidies running.

      These people are in the Matrix, they are convinced it's the real deal.

      The fact Libertarians exist (including in America) means they are not in the Matrix. American isn't China where dissidents get imprisoned/silenced. They can topple whatever Matrix or oppression you think they're under if they want to. They just don't want to.

      Heck, people were able to topple Soviet Russia. People are more capable at taking care of themselves than you think.

      Likewise, Africans are more capable a taking care of themselves than you think. Given time, Africans will figure out how to survive even if subsidies exist. Even if subsidies INCREASE. Just keep doing what's good for yourself. You don't have to care for other people. It's not your job to take care of other people's problems.

    28. Re:Solution by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Sorry, no, this is Sarcasm... you're looking for Abuse- that's down the hall.

    29. Re:Solution by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      People have been robbed of their initiative, and they are robbed of fruits of their labour with high taxes and inflation, they can't really afford to buy farms and to learn and become farmers. Of-course this also defeats the purpose of industrialisation, what do you propose - back to subsistence farming?

      The people are only LETTING themselves get robbed. But when you're letting people rob you, is it really robbery?

      - no, they lack the understanding that they are getting robbed and thus it continues. Of-course all people deserve their governments, I suppose they are just not ready yet to change themselves. But it's coming.

      Again, this is the Randean paradise called America. Americans don't care that there would be multiple winners. They only care if *they themselves* are the winners.

      - but they would win if they stopped being taxed and stopped subsidising losing businesses, they would win more purchasing power. They don't understand it yet. The fact that some other people would win as well is inconsequential, I am not, I am NEVER asking for somebody to SACRIFICE anything, I am talking about people behaving in their best self interest, and Americans are not yet doing it with all these taxes and subsidies, so they are not Randian at all, they don't have convictions.

      Americans have very very few convictions in reality, very few and very few of them, but it's the same with most other people in the world.

      Compared to Africa, everybody in America is already a winner. As such, there's no incentive for Americans to change their ways even if it would increase winners in Africa...

      - that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about self interest. AMERICANS would win if they stopped taxing and subsidising, Africans come as a distant afterthought (and they don't have to think about them) they should just really think about themselves and that would be enough.

      No, they are Randeans to the core. They never abandoned their convictions. Americans have always and still do only care about themselves. They don't care if Africans are starving. They care about their farmers getting subsidies, their banks getting bail outs, their politicians getting kick backs, etc.

      - most Americans are not farmers and most Americans are not bankers.

      Most Americans are suffering from gov't bailing out banks and subsidising farms and taxing workers. So it's all wrong, especially your belief that Americans have principles.

      The fact Libertarians exist (including in America) means they are not in the Matrix.

      - that makes no sense. In the movie the Matrix existed and so did Neo and so did the underground, etc. The one didn't negate the other, they complemented each other. Without the Matrix there would be no underground.

      Heck, people were able to topple Soviet Russia. People are more capable at taking care of themselves than you think.

      - you are completely off on the reasons as to why USSR fell apart. It was the same reasons that will cause the downfall of the USA and it really wasn't about the weeks of 1991 revolt in Russia. It was about 75 years of destruction of the economy and especially last 15 years of Afghanistan and printing of trillions of rubles a year and producing nothing.

      It's very much similar to what USA is going through right now.

      Likewise, Africans are more capable a taking care of themselves than you think. Given time, Africans will figure out how to survive even if subsidies exist. Even if subsidies INCREASE. Just keep doing what's good for yourself. You don't have to care for other people. It's not your job to take care of other people's problems.

      - well I guess you just completely misunderstand me.

      I. Do. Not. Care. About. Other. People.

      I only care about myself and whoever closest to me, but this means that I need other p

    30. Re:Solution by Jonner · · Score: 1

      Birth control.

      That's what happens when people have enough food, education, and other prerequisites for prosperity.

    31. Re:Solution by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Maybe it won't be Americans first, maybe it will be the Irish first that will just STOP PAYING THEIR TAXES.

      Good for them.

    32. Re:Solution by DaleSwanson · · Score: 1

      Mexico was before China. The next is Indonesia.

    33. Re:Solution by Aryden · · Score: 1

      its going back there as well. I know in the software development aspect, we've been moving our offshore contracts from India to Mexico and whatever else we offshore in the future is going to Mexico as well.

    34. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People have been robbed of their initiative, and they are robbed of fruits of their labour with high taxes and inflation, they can't really afford to buy farms and to learn and become farmers.

      Again, their own fault. Not my problem. Not your problem. Not anybody's problem but their own to solve.

      Of-course this also defeats the purpose of industrialisation, what do you propose - back to subsistence farming?

      I propose nothing. It's not my job to solve their problems. Not without being paid that is ;p

      - no, they lack the understanding that they are getting robbed and thus it continues.

      Their own fault for not understanding. Not my problem. Not your problem.

      Of-course all people deserve their governments, I suppose they are just not ready yet to change themselves. But it's coming.

      If it's coming, then there's no need for us to do anything. They'll figure it out on their own. Again, their problem not ours

      - but they would win if they stopped being taxed and stopped subsidising losing businesses, they would win more purchasing power. They don't understand it yet.

      No, YOU don't understand. Americans can decide for themselves if they're winning or not. And so far, they still think they are, so they are. It's not for you or I to tell them they aren't winning.

      I am talking about people behaving in their best self interest, and Americans are not yet doing it with all these taxes and subsidies, so they are not Randian at all, they don't have convictions.

      No, Americans are behaving in their best self interests since forever. One of the things about self interests is that THEY, not you, get to decide what's best for themselves. That's their conviction, and their convictions are as strong as ever. They decided what they have now is preferable to helping Africans, no matter what you say because you don't get to decide for them that they aren't winning.

      - most Americans are not farmers and most Americans are not bankers.

      All Americans are Americans. When asked "do you want to help an American farmer or an African farmer", I bet most Americans will want to help the American farmer, even if they aren't a farmer. It's patriotism, another conviction that Americans have always had

      - that makes no sense. In the movie the Matrix existed and so did Neo and so did the underground, etc. The one didn't negate the other, they complemented each other. Without the Matrix there would be no underground.

      No, what you said makes no sense. Libertarianism is not some underground movement in the US. It's out in the open. It's recognized by the government (the system, the Matrix) as a legitimate party. The general public can easily access the information regarding Libertarians and Libertarianism, unlike in the movie where the existence of Neo and the resistance is unknown to the masses up to the end

      - you are completely off on the reasons as to why USSR fell apart.

      No, you misunderstand. What I mean is that USSR is toppled/collapsed without outsiders saying "oh USSR you better stop subsidies" or whatever thing you think they shouldn't (or should) be doing. People can take care of themselves.

      - well I guess you just completely misunderstand me.

      I. Do. Not. Care. About. Other. People.

      I only care about myself and whoever closest to me, but this means that I need other people to succeed.

      It's more likely you don't even understand yourself.

      By caring for other people to succeed, you ARE caring for other people.

      See, I don't care if you succeed or not. If you succeed, I'll do one thing. If you don't, I'll do something else. Whether you succeed or not does not impede my ability to live my life to the fullest.

      It's like driving o

    35. Re:Solution by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      All of your comments are strange at very least, something is funny about them.

      It's as if you are asking me to stop writing what I write, why do you give a shit about what I write?

    36. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of my comments are strange. You're the one who's strange for thinking they are strange.

      I'm not asking you to stop writing at all. As if I had any power to do that if I wanted to. I'm just responding to what you write, posting what I feel like. You know, just like you and everybody else here. It's my freedom, my liberty.

      Why do YOU give a shit to me giving a shit?

    37. Re:Solution by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Answer me this: what do electronic sheep dream of?

    38. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only a strange person would ask such a strange question out of nowhere ;)

  3. Birth control... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...can save a lot of food and water!

  4. the bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How about not growing the population in an area that can't sustain it? Our whole planet is going to have to do this at some point unless there's some sort of breakthrough. Is it really too early to start talking about managing population growth or are we still so blind that we can't distinguish between human rights and long term survival?

    1. Re:the bigger problem by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Population is the elephant in the room of environmentalism. It's the root of almost all other problems, perhaps the most serious one of all. At the same time, the only ways to fix it would face massive public opposition to the point that the environmental movement as a whole would suffer from the backlash. So the problem is ignored, on the grounds that there are no politically viable solutions. China excepted, but them only because their government doesn't have to care how unpopular it's programs are.

    2. Re:the bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How about not growing the population in an area that can't sustain it? Our whole planet is going to have to do this at some point unless there's some sort of breakthrough. Is it really too early to start talking about managing population growth or are we still so blind that we can't distinguish between human rights and long term survival?

      Yep. And one problem is the church which is doing much of the aid work in developing counries. Church does not allow birth control. Quite opposite, their bible says people should spread and fill the earth. They don't undestant that it happened allready over a hunderd years a go.

    3. Re:the bigger problem by Githaron · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I have no problem with birth control in general. I have a problem with abortion.

    4. Re:the bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Exponential population growth, contrary to popular belief, is actually a myth. Birth control is actually popular with the people who use it (women). If people can afford it and are educated as to it's existence it works great without any sort of oppressive scheme. See for example, India's rapidly declining birthrate: graph as an example of how population is not as bad as you might think. In my personal opinion, the biggest issue for the environment is intellectual property and microregulations that impede alternative energy development.

    5. Re:the bigger problem by Confusedent · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Disagree, the carrying capacity of Earth increases with new technological breakthroughs. As an example, we're only utilizing less than 30% of the *surface* habit right now (we can grow shit on the oceans, you know). The real issue is capturing enough energy (plus converting it to the desired forms) to feed/house/etc. everyone. Trying to control population is a needless violation of human rights, at least at this point. Well, not entirely needless given the current technology and economic structure, but the point is we have more than enough resources, we just manage them poorly, plus the first world has pretty well demonstrated that comfortable living is more important than taking care of the less fortunate. Oh don't get me wrong, Malthusian growth can't continue indefinitely, but we are so freaking far from that point it isn't even funny.

    6. Re:the bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      troll harder asshole.

    7. Re:the bigger problem by khallow · · Score: 1

      I don't see the problem. The West has already figured out how to be helpless in a politically viable way in the face of African die-offs.

    8. Re:the bigger problem by hairyfish · · Score: 0

      Mod up! Every time I hear someone moan about war, famine, peak oil, climate change, destruction of environment, electricity prices etc etc no-one ever mentions the root cause. Too many people. Every major problem has the same root cause. The problems aren't so much bad human behaviour, it simply too many of us doing it.

    9. Re:the bigger problem by dwywit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why "troll"? Abortion should be safe, legal, and these days EXTREMELY RARE. If all our children were given adequate access to education and when of a suitable age, access to birth control, I think abortion rates (and over-population) would become less and less.
       
      One man's opinion, obviously.

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    10. Re:the bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exponential population growth, contrary to popular belief, is actually a myth.

      Perhaps you don't understand exponents. It doesn't always mean "gets really big really fast".
      Population growth is continuing globally and it's expected to continue for the immediate future. Yes, there are some countries with declining populations and the overall rate of increase has declined, but the global population is increasing by 1 billion about every 14 years on average from the 1970s until 2050.

    11. Re:the bigger problem by neyla · · Score: 1

      Was there more or less famine and war at the time when earth had half the population it has now ? Shouldn't there have been much less, if your theory is correct ?

      Overpopulation is a problem in some places, and the birth-rate is still somewhat too high globally, but it's improved a lot.

      http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=global+fertility+rate+trend

      This shows fertility has fallen from ~5 to 2.5, it needs to be 1.9 or some such for stability. (slightly under 2, to compensate for average lifespan going up)

    12. Re:the bigger problem by Shazback · · Score: 1

      Thirty thousand years ago mankind had yet to discover agriculture and animal husbandry. One thousand years ago mankind used wood as the primary source of energy. Two centuries ago mankind had yet to understand the causes of common diseases and infections. Within the last century, mankind has begun to harness the power of the atom, so far only by fission, but perhaps soon also by fusion. Only 51 years ago did Man first venture beyond Earth's atmosphere. During the past half-century, mankind has started to explore the nature of the gene and DNA. Today, mankind is growing ever more able to harness the power of wind, wave and sunlight. Soon, perhaps, hydroponic meat will no longer be a prohibitively expensive experimental technique, but will be the cornerstone of a nutritional revolution unheard of since the discovery of agriculture. As we venture deeper into the nature of the universe, we will discover even greater sources of power, and in turn devise manners to harness them to our advantage. Growth is desireable, and the limits we believe it might have today are nothing more than the limits of our knowledge.

    13. Re:the bigger problem by SQL+Error · · Score: 1

      Yes, and that's what's happening. Fertility rates are falling, and continue to fall, in almost every country on Earth. A number of western nations are already below replacement level.

    14. Re:the bigger problem by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      I think the grandparent's point is that rapid population growth is a phase that most countries go through. Initially you don't have enough resources to sustain it and so high birth rates don't translate to population growth because most of the children die before reaching maturity. Then technology (translated to availability of food and medical knowledge) improve and a lot of the children that would have died survive. Then you get the population boom. Then you get better education and the availability of birth control and the growth drops away and even becomes negative. A lot of Africa is stuck in stage 2 because we're shovelling food and medical aid at them, but not education.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    15. Re:the bigger problem by hairyfish · · Score: 1

      Was there more or less famine and war at the time when earth had half the population it has now ? Shouldn't there have been much less, if your theory is correct ?

      It's much more complex than that, technology for one is constantly changing, and for the first time ever in the history of humanity we have enough technology to sufficiently control our environment. No other civilisation has ever had this. Take oil as one example. Oil is a scarce resource that we kill people over. if right now, today 90% of the population never woke up tomorrow, oil scarcity would cease to be a problem. So the problem is not too little oil, it's too many people.

    16. Re:the bigger problem by metrometro · · Score: 1

      I assume you're talking about Los Angeles, right?

    17. Re:the bigger problem by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      The Roman Catholic Church proscribes _artificial_ means of birth control.

      It does promote / suggest / teach techniques which are appropriate to the reverence for life which are at the heart of its teaching:

        - abstinence
        - the Billings method (where a woman learns to understand when she is fertile by tracking basal body temperature, &c. and can then control when or when not to depending on whether or no she wishes to conceive)

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    18. Re:the bigger problem by jtseng · · Score: 1

      If all our children were given adequate access to education and when of a suitable age, access to birth control, I think abortion rates (and over-population) would become less and less.

      I actually have mod points today, and I wish I could mod this up more. I came to this conclusion long ago and I'm glad I'm not alone in this thought.

      --

      Sanity.html - Error 404 not found

    19. Re:the bigger problem by sighnaps · · Score: 1

      Hasn't anyone seen Idiocracy? I'm rapidly becoming convinced that our future is bleak. where is Carl Sagan when you need him? Oh yea, that's right... :(

    20. Re:the bigger problem by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Abstinence is a bad joke. People are people and don't want to give up sex, which is one reason why "celibate" priests have been raping kids for time immemorial.

      The rhythm method doesn't work without a lot more education and good guesswork than is readily available. It's a lot easier and more effective to simply pass out condoms, and it doesn't cost much more to include the Pill.

      Basically the Catholic church needs to pull its collective head out of its ass as it did for geocentrism and for evolution, and admit that artificial contraception works a whole lot better than "natural" methods they advocate.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    21. Re:the bigger problem by aclarke · · Score: 1
      How in the world did this get modded up? "The church" is not a single entity with a single viewpoint. The Catholic church officially stands against contraceptives, but in most places they are also not the majority.

      I just did a quick search and came up with this excerpt:

      The total number of American catholic missionaries in Africa in 1963 was 901 ... By the 1960s, some 9000 Protestant American missionaries were working in Africa ... Of the Protestants, one-quarter were ordained clergy; 1,000 were medical missionaries; and the remainder were "general" missionaries or instructors in industrial, agricultural, and other subjects.

      I posit that the percentage of Catholic missionaries overall might have been higher once you factor in Europeans. However, you can see that from this small sample at least, the significant majority were Protestants, most of whom are not against contraceptives at all. They'd still be likely to be pushing for abstinence outside marriage, which in turn means historically that they'd be less likely to be promoting contraceptives outside marriage.

    22. Re:the bigger problem by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      rhythm method != Billings Ovulation Method

      the latter is effective:

      http://www.woomb.org/bom/trials/index.html

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    23. Re:the bigger problem by TFAFalcon · · Score: 0

      Reverence for life? Don't make me laugh.

      All the Church cares about is it's own power. If it revered life so much then it would sell all the gold that's lying around Vatican and set up farms and hospitals in Africa.

    24. Re:the bigger problem by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Which doesn't at all invalidate what I said, or any of the other things I said.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    25. Re:the bigger problem by sorak · · Score: 1

      It does promote / suggest / teach techniques which are appropriate to the reverence for life which are at the heart of its teaching:

      How are unnatural forms of birth control "inappropriate to the reverence for life"? I would think a highly appropriate way to show reverence for life is to not create more of it than you can properly care for.

    26. Re:the bigger problem by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

      That's linear growth.

      --
      (+1, Disagree)
    27. Re:the bigger problem by ErikZ · · Score: 1

      But they're not rare, they're very common.

      Look up the statistics, out of every 3 conceptions, 1 ends in abortion.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    28. Re:the bigger problem by jsepeta · · Score: 1

      we should not help them to assist their population growth. we should assist them to enrich their soil so it becomes arable land. at some tipping point, perhaps already reached, they have too many people to support based on their natural resources. famine and pestilence, disease and death are part of the circle of life. we cannot have balance if the population grows unimpeded.

      the same can be said for china and india. at some point in the future, either a natural event (bird flu) or manmade event (biological warfare) will trim the world population down to a sustainable size.

      --
      Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    29. Re:the bigger problem by quacking+duck · · Score: 1

      Disagree. The "living is more than just being alive" argument by death-with-dignity supporters applies equally well to the world's population. Sure, tech and other breakthroughs can sustain more people in the literal sense (otherwise the world population wouldn't still be growing), but when you see numbers like 925 million hungry people around the world, and 1.3 billion are considered to be in "extreme poverty", you can't tell me reducing population grown is a bad thing.

      And it doesn't have to be the draconian one-child-per-family policies seen in China. Simply providing free birth control (condoms being the simplest) in developing countries would be a huge start, both in reducing unwanted/impossible-to-support pregnancies and reducing HIV/AIDS, but the religious nutcases now in control of several countries restrict or deny funding to any aid organization that promotes contraceptive use or abortion (and are doing their best to kill abortion back home, too). The Catholic church is also guilty/complicit in prolonging this human suffering, again thanks to its anti-contraceptive stance.

      The idealistic scenario is to distribute wealth and resources fairly such that no one is in poverty and has a decent life worth living. The reality is this will never, ever happen. Not only would the right-wing scream bloody socialism, communism, etc, the dictators and their cronies in most underdeveloped countries will never allow meaningful aid to reach their underclass--they've seen what reasonably well-off but unhappy populations did during the Arab Spring.

      The religious right also screams at attempts to provide contraception too, but this is infinitely more likely to succeed (if only because the idealistic option has 0% chance of happening).

    30. Re:the bigger problem by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Post a fucking link yourself and don't be too lazy to back up your assertions.

      OP was saying what it /should/ be, so you fail reading comprehension as well.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    31. Re:the bigger problem by Lev13than · · Score: 1

      http://www.americanpregnancy.org/main/statistics.html

      6 million total pregnancies
      4 million live births
      0.8 million miscarriages/still births
      1.2 million abortions

      1.2/6 = 20%

      So one in five pregnancies end up in an abortion. If you only include viable pregnancies it's more like one in four. Regardless of your position on abortion it's a very high number.

      --
      When you have nothing left to burn you must set yourself on fire
    32. Re:the bigger problem by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Problem: they don't cite /their/ sources.

      That's a bit odd because I sampled some of their other pages and some of them had cites.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    33. Re:the bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unless there's some sort of breakthrough
      Ditch cows.

      *bam*, 30% of the earth's growable surface is freed up. THIRTY PERCENT. WITH A SINGLE TYPE OF FOOD... BEEF. And this of course includes the corn used to feed said beef.

      Get rid of the horrendously inefficient for energy animals in food production, use that land instead for something with higher space to energy production (emu's come to mind, or just stick with plants for human eating FFS), and the world just got significantly, SIGNIFICANTLY better off... both for food and climate change.

      But no, asking someone to stop eating a steak is akin to asking them to murder their own children. Never happen.

    34. Re:the bigger problem by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      and microregulations that impede alternative energy development.

      What is a micro-regulation?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    35. Re:the bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't claim to know the exact mechanism of causality here, but there's a blindingly obvious negative correlation between wealth and birthrate.

    36. Re:the bigger problem by ErikZ · · Score: 1

      I know what you mean. I didn't believe it at first either.

      Here's a list of births by year in the US: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html

      Abortions by year:
      http://www.mccl.org/page.aspx?pid=400

      Looks like I was a little off. The numbers seem to be a closer to 1 out of 4 than 1 out of 3. Which is better, but still a staggering amount.

      I guess I should have kept my research links from the first time I did this.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    37. Re:the bigger problem by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      The surface area of this spheroid, however, remains finite. Once we have a few sustainable offworld colonies running, then you can start planning to take over the universe.

    38. Re:the bigger problem by reasterling · · Score: 1

      If 90% of the worlds population didn't wake up, a large part of the other 10% would not last very long. Oil as well as all the other "scarce" resources would be the least of your wories. Rampant desease and starvation would be prevolent, as well as fighting over what resources are left after the colapse of all society.

      --
      "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice" -- God
    39. Re:the bigger problem by Jonner · · Score: 1

      There's nothing new about problems resulting from overpopulation. People have been exploring, colonizing and emmigrating for thousands of years in response to population pressure. The big question is whether it will be possible to colonize places outside of Earth before things get too bad here. There is still plenty of space left on Earth, but we also need huge advances in technology to practically colonize Mars or the moons of Jupiter.

    40. Re:the bigger problem by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Your second link mentions the Guttmacher Institute, so let's go there directly instead of through a group with a political axe to grind:

      http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.pdf

      Lots more information there. They say it's 22% of American pregnancies, which is surprisingly common. I'd be interested to know correlations between abortion frequency and areas that use abstinence-only sex ed; the whole idea with teaching kids to use contraception /properly/ is that (among other things) they'll be less likely to need abortions later on or to use them as contraception.

      Disclosure: I've got a young daughter. We tested for serious developmental defects when my wife was pregnant and if any had turned up I'd have pushed hard for her to get an abortion, because I believe it's unfair to the kid to force them to live a life dependent on others when you've got the ability to save them the suffering.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    41. Re:the bigger problem by neyla · · Score: 1

      My point is that at the global scale, you're talking about yesterdays problem. The best guess according to current evidence is that world-population will stabilise within the next generation or two at a level less than twice the current population.

      Yes that's a lot of people, but demographic changes are slow, and stopping the trend much sooner would require either killing huge numbers of existing humans (atleast a billion or two to even make a noticeable difference), or else *radically* cut birth-numbers *immediately*. Or deliberately stop life-expectancy from rising, most practically possible by limiting basic healthcare to the poorest as much as possible to have more of them die earlier.

      Do you really think either of those can be done without inflicting larger suffering than what will be caused by the crowding at 10-15 billion compared to todays 7 ? There are significant drawbacks at having having *very* few children for a few decades too, drawbacks like ending up with a huge old population and few young.

      In short, your "cure" is orders of magnitude worse than the problem. I'm not saying it's not a problem, and we really -should- work to make sure the yellow scenario in this graph happens, rather than the red scenario:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World-Population-1800-2100.png

      If we can manage that though (and it sure does seem like it), then this problem is "solved", in the sense that peaking at 9 billion in 2070, is something we can deal with, with less suffering than would be induced by any more radical solution.

    42. Re:the bigger problem by ErikZ · · Score: 1

      The number have been trending down, which is heartening. And if you go to the census, you can have them broken down by state.

      But without a comprehensive list of sex ed programs by area, I don't think you'd be able to get the information you're looking for.

      I'm completely pro-choice. I just find the amounts of abortions to be incredible, and a red flag. That either we're not understanding something important, or we see it and refuse to believe it.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    43. Re:the bigger problem by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Colonisation isn't going to solve any population issues. Sending a few thousand settlers is hard, but you'd have to send hundreds of millions to just make a dent in the population here. Think of the expense.

  5. Why don't you ask Rhodesia? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    They were the breadbasket of Africa in the 70s, until the blacks took over and chased all the white farmers out.

    1. Re:Why don't you ask Rhodesia? by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      They were the breadbasket of Africa in the 70s, until the blacks took over and chased all the white farmers out.

      Surely there must be a few 'blacks' there that saw the kind of mechanized farming the 'whites' were performing and learnt how to do it. We are not talking degrees in agriculture here, just practical knowledge of how to farm. Why are the smart, enthusiastic, hard workers getting anywhere? Don't try and tell me they don't exist.

    2. Re:Why don't you ask Rhodesia? by dead_cthulhu · · Score: 1

      Because the land in Zimbabwe wasn't given to farmhands or people who would be willing to learn. It was given to Mugabe's thugs and cronies who don't care if their country starves because *they* certainly won't.

    3. Re:Why don't you ask Rhodesia? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because African soil is racist.

      It produces a bounty for the White farmer, yet when the Black farmer just sits around drunk and stares at it, it selfishly produces nothing !

      I think all African soil should be necklaced!

    4. Re:Why don't you ask Rhodesia? by zoloto · · Score: 1

      It still turned into a shit-hole.

    5. Re:Why don't you ask Rhodesia? by realxmp · · Score: 5, Informative

      They were the breadbasket of Africa in the 70s, until the blacks took over and chased all the white farmers out.

      Surely there must be a few 'blacks' there that saw the kind of mechanized farming the 'whites' were performing and learnt how to do it. We are not talking degrees in agriculture here, just practical knowledge of how to farm. Why are the smart, enthusiastic, hard workers getting anywhere? Don't try and tell me they don't exist.

      There were blacks who knew how to farm efficiently, however these farm labourers were chased out along with the white farmers who owned the farms. The land didn't go to black folk who knew how to farm, it went to the so called "war veterans", aka people who backed the right political side. They also parcelled up the land into smaller parts. The result of all this was subsistence farming.

      The problem wasn't just that the system for taking over land was corrupt, but that it was completely mismanaged. Strangely if the party elite had actually taken their corruption far enough, parcelled out whole farms amongst themselves and kept on the existing labourers it would probably still be a breadbasket. Alternatively they could have been patient and taken the land over but kept the white farmers on as tenants and then used the money to fund decent projects for the country (though realistically they would have skimmed off the top from this too).

    6. Re:Why don't you ask Rhodesia? by jrumney · · Score: 1

      Most of the protesters I've seen outside the Zimbabwe embassy in London are black themselves. Don't try to paint what is happening there in black vs white terms, it is a violent dictator who has harmed all his citizens.

    7. Re:Why don't you ask Rhodesia? by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      They weren't ideologically pure enough. So the government gave the land to their cronies instead. THEY didn't know anything about farming, so now there is famine.

    8. Re:Why don't you ask Rhodesia? by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      That's true, but in no small part because there just aren't very many whites left. When he was fighting the segregationist government, a lot of Africans thought he was great. Then he got into power, established himself, and proved that he was just using them against the white government.

    9. Re:Why don't you ask Rhodesia? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am from Zimbabwe, {Rhodesia} and I can say it's not all about the people as you mention. A lot also has to do with the fact that from 1985, Zimbabwe was hit with a series of serious droughts. This was before any land 'grabs' or white farmers were kicked out.
      So while it is convenient to see only the issues which got media attention, at ground level, all farmers -whether black, white, subsistence or commercial were suddenly facing a challenge that was outside of politics, race or know-how. That is what affected the arability of the land most.

  6. Sam Kinison on World Hunger by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  7. Why farm at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the soil is so poor why farm at all? Why not focus on some other industry to grow the economy and import all their food?

    1. Re:Why farm at all? by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      The rest of the world doesn't have unlimited food production capacity. Trying to import food for one billion people into Africa will mean other places in the world will need to produce one billion peoples' worth of new food. That's no small thing.

    2. Re:Why farm at all? by Aryden · · Score: 1

      we already do, the government pays farmers to burn their crops to keep prices artificially inflated so that the farming is actually profitable and people will do it.

    3. Re:Why farm at all? by Githaron · · Score: 1

      I always thought this was dumb. If there is a known market someone is going to satisfy it. If food prices were aloud to go down, there would simply be fewer farmers not necessarily less food. The remaining farmers would increase production to satsify the demand.

    4. Re:Why farm at all? by sFurbo · · Score: 2

      It is estimated that Europe wastes around 50% of the food they produce, I assume the same is true for USA. People in the West eat much more meat than is needed. Limiting the amount of meat in the Western diet and limiting the wasted food will give us more than enough food to feed the world. Not that such a solution is easy.

    5. Re:Why farm at all? by vipw · · Score: 2

      It's nice to grow a little extra food, you know, just in case. It's not very nice to be dependent upon foreign nations for essential commodities. Consider oil shocks or when Russia shuts off the pipelines to Europe -- now imagine if food was being cut off instead.

      That said, much of the government subsidy is trade brinkmanship between US and EU. It has the unintended consequence of making poor countries unable to compete in the world agriculture market.

      A better system would probably be government "food banks", which would buy food futures from world market instead of national one. Agricultural lobby is never going to support that, and they have real clout.

    6. Re:Why farm at all? by 1s44c · · Score: 2

      It is estimated that Europe wastes around 50% of the food they produce, I assume the same is true for USA. People in the West eat much more meat than is needed. Limiting the amount of meat in the Western diet and limiting the wasted food will give us more than enough food to feed the world. Not that such a solution is easy.

      Then what? We ship the excess to Africa and their population increases until they are starving again?

      Your plan will work short term but only short term. It won't help these people to help themselves.

    7. Re:Why farm at all? by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      If the soil is so poor why farm at all? Why not focus on some other industry to grow the economy and import all their food?

      Sounds reasonable but what has the average African got to sell that he could practically make some profit from? The Oil is all owned by corrupt governments.

    8. Re:Why farm at all? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      It's not about capacity, it's about latency. Look at what happened when China decided to reduce exports of rare earth metals. The rest of the world has massive stocks of these in the ground, but it will take about 2 years to reopen the mines and ramp up production to meet the demand. With food, the time is typically about a year, maybe six months. The point of farm subsidies is to ensure that your population won't starve if you are suddenly unable to import food.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    9. Re:Why farm at all? by delinear · · Score: 1

      So you trade other goods and use some of the profits to buy in food and some to improve your own land for growing in the future. Independence doesn't have to come all at once but you have to start somewhere. Besides, lots of richer countries don't produce nearly enough food to feed themselves without relying on some imports.

    10. Re:Why farm at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His time? And nimble fingers? Africa is going to be the next china.

    11. Re:Why farm at all? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      Not just that, such plans will be (and have been) detrimental to local farmers. Same problem as with a lot of the other free shit we've shipped there.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  8. Hydroponics? by intok · · Score: 0

    how about something like the hydroponic system being used in Milwaukee, WI where they are also farming fish in the vegetable grows? Thoguh they do need allot more water in much of Africa, Desalination plants would help some, but not for the countries on the interior.

    1. Re:Hydroponics? by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      "allot" does not mean what you think it means.

    2. Re:Hydroponics? by intok · · Score: 1

      Allot is allot when looking food for a few hundred million people and you aren't next to what amounts to a fresh water sea.

    3. Re:Hydroponics? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      allot /lt/ Show Spelled[uh-lot]
      verb (used with object), -lotted, -lotting.
      1. to divide or distribute by share or portion; distribute or parcel out; apportion: to allot the available farmland among the settlers.
      2. to appropriate for a special purpose: to allot money for a park.
      3. to assign as a portion; set apart; dedicate.
      I'd guess you meant "a lot", as in much.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    4. Re:Hydroponics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you're doing that for the lulz

  9. no chemical fertilizers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They shouldn't use chemical fertilizers. Use sustainable practices only. The poor yields will help to starve the excess population to death and the yield curve will eventually meet the population curve. Stop hurting Gaia with your chemical food rape.

    1. Re:no chemical fertilizers by intok · · Score: 0

      They shouldn't use chemical fertilizers. Use sustainable practices only. The poor yields will help to starve the excess population to death and the yield curve will eventually meet the population curve. Stop hurting Gaia with your chemical food rape.

      This message brought to you by Monsanto?

  10. I KNOW!! by HaeMaker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How about we let the Africans decide! What a CONCEPT! Self determination!

    1. Re:I KNOW!! by mug+funky · · Score: 5, Funny

      you're crazy. they have oil. it's obvious intervention is required.

    2. Re:I KNOW!! by MastaBaba · · Score: 1

      Troll? Answering the question posed in the OP has nothing to do with whether 'Africans' should be self determinate.

    3. Re:I KNOW!! by pbscoop · · Score: 1

      Tell them one last time to stop procreating if they don't have enough food then leave.

    4. Re:I KNOW!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're crazy. they have oil. it's obvious intervention is required.

      rated funny, but chillingly true.

    5. Re:I KNOW!! by Nimey · · Score: 1

      I remember reading recently (but not where, alas; maybe a recent issue of National Geographic?) that a common attitude in sub-Saharan Africa is that war is an acceptable population control. The locals know that slash&burning rainforest to start farming in the thin soils and growing their population is unsustainable, but they see and accept that war will inevitably come to thin out the surplus population and the cycle will begin again.

      It's an utterly bizarre headspace and I don't know how to reach these people that there is a better way (such as birth control).

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    6. Re:I KNOW!! by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      I think it's hilarious that sustainability is any sort of concern. People are starving. You know what I'm not thinking about when I'm starving? 20 years from now. Next year. Tomorrow.

      We didn't think about the future when we were industrializing our farmland, and we weren't starving. Why should we hold them to a higher standard? Fuck that. Get them to stop starving to death and then let's worry about the future. It may not even be the right decision, but you know it's the one you would make if you were in their shoes.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    7. Re:I KNOW!! by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      I think it's hilarious that sustainability is any sort of concern. People are starving. You know what I'm not thinking about when I'm starving? 20 years from now. Next year. Tomorrow.

      We didn't think about the future when we were industrializing our farmland, and we weren't starving. Why should we hold them to a higher standard? Fuck that. Get them to stop starving to death and then let's worry about the future. It may not even be the right decision, but you know it's the one you would make if you were in their shoes.

      uhh.. that's exactly what we did. it provided us with means to move to population centres and multiple the expected life expectancy, multiplying the amount of output from the fields. thinking about the future is exactly what was done, leaving time for other ventures than pickin' cotton so we could have more doctors, more hospitals, more factories.

      if your fields are providing shit output and you aren't using fertilizers(in some way, notice: pig stool isn't necessarely the best answer) and you're starving you're just not very good farmers, tractors are better than asses and manual labor.

      and all the talk about rich fertile soil in europe: LOLS TO THAT. Europe was fed and dragged from starvation with industrial fertilizers. rotational crops go only so far. slash'n'burn is very labor intensive and needs a LOT of land to be sustainable too. why does this matter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash-and-burn . see the first picture? it's finland 1893. it was a necessity, but ultimately shit for life and needed a lot of land and moving around. the second picture? some jungle in modern day. they're a 100 years behind us.

      haber process. it isn't make believe shit even if it works like it.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  11. They have to chose? by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is a stupid question. Why can't they do all 3? Did Africa recently shrink to the point where they can only try 1 type of farming? This is like asking what type of electrical generation the US should switch to!

  12. Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by Gordonjcp · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Of course we all know that all farms should only be used for growing vegetables because raising animals is bad for the environment, right?

    Wrong.

    This is exactly why. The only people who think that we should only grow vegetables are people who have only ever seen thousands of acres of rolling Iowa cornfields - much of which gets fed to cows. Most of the world doesn't use "feedlots" the way that the cattle industry in the US does. Most of the world isn't rolling Iowa cornfield, either.

    The only thing that makes sense is to try to grow things that will actually thrive in the prevailing conditions. Trying to turn land that is not really suitable for arable crops into land that *is* suitable for arable crops is doomed to expensive failure. Now, the first problem with Africa is that cutting down forests to provide arable land has allowed what soil there was to wash or blow away, depending on whether it's getting deluged with rain or dried into powder with the sun. The first thing is not to worry too much about importing huge amounts of petrochemical-derived fertiliser, but to get irrigation working and grow green manure crops that will tie what little soil there is together, and provide some nutrients when they break down. The great thing about this is that you don't really care if the water is dirty - in fact, you *want* it to be a bit dirty, any sediment or sewage or dead animals will only make it work better. The more biomass you get in there, the better. Sure, it'll smell a bit horrible, but have you ever been near an organic farm when they're spreading the organic fertiliser out? Hint - you make organic fertiliser using cows, sheep and pigs.

    A good solution would be to devise some way of processing sewage from towns into something that can be used as fertiliser. The difficulty is that allowing sewage to break down involves allowing human shit to break down, and that requires you to let bacteria multiply rapidly, and you tend to get predominantly E Coli bacteria when you do that. This isn't exactly what you want to fling onto your arable crops, and killing E Coli requires lots of chemicals or lots of heat. They've got a lot of sunshine, so maybe you could do something with that - a sort of solar steriliser to bake off the E Coli and give you a nice, dry, easy-to-handle compost.

    Of course you're going to need to find some sort of livestock that thrive in these conditions, and goats do pretty well, but goats eat everything and will destroy ground-covering plants which is how we got into this mess in the first place. Hens would do pretty well, as long as you had a biggish grassy patch with plenty of bugs for them to eat. Cows would be good if you could get enough forage in for them initially, because there's nothing quite so good at turning poor grassland into fertile arable land as getting some sort of ruminant to eat the tough inedible grasses and pass them through that complex set of stomachs.

    We can't afford the arable land for everyone to be vegetarian, and when the oil runs out the situation will get worse. We *all* need to plan now and act soon.

    1. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      We can't afford the arable land for everyone to be vegetarian

      It takes more land to raise meat than veggies, vegetarians save land. Meat is best raised where the land isn't arable. Deer and sheep farms on rocky hills, and all that.

    2. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It takes more land to raise meat than veggies, vegetarians save land.

      Source?
      How much m per kg meat do you need and how much m per kg vegetables do you need.
      Then how much kgs of meat/vegetables do you need to eat to get the required food into your system,...

      Placing the right type of farms on the right type of land is obvious, but I think to much will be:
      I own this nice land that would be great for crops, but I want to have cattle. Landownership is the biggest hurdle to fix that issue.

    3. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by MRe_nl · · Score: 1

      The production of 1 kilogram (2.2 pounds) of beef results in about 22.1 kilograms (49 pounds) of CO2 emissions - including production of grains and feed, methane released from the cow's digestion adjusted as a CO2 equivalent, materials, production and shipping.#ref1 http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es702969f The loss of natural habitat potential from 1 kilogram (2.2 pounds) of beef is estimated to be 17 square meters (183 square feet).

      http://ecofx.org/wiki/index.php?title=Beef

      --
      "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
    4. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, composting human waste kills off just about everything that you can be worried about. (E. coli isn't really a worry either except in rare cases, it is mainly used as a marker bacteria to detect feaces, from many animals not just humans). For a good introduction read the humanure handbook, http://www.humanurehandbook.com/

      Another good resource for building soils is http://www.waterright.com.au/ which has some great ideas about carbon capture through plants and worms on large scales, and some excellent ways of using water conservatively on a large scale.

      Biochar is another great idea that can help to build soils.

      Couple all of these with using fungi, (mycorrhizae, fungi that form associations with plants and help to build soil), and you are starting to make steps in the right directions.

      I don't really see growing meat as a great evil, unless you are growing meat by feeding it food that humans can eat, then it is just insane. Agricultural waste products, green manures on plots that are in the process of having their soils improved sure.... but food?

      Chemical fertilizers are in no way sustainable or the best way to go in the long term, but certainly a useful tool to help you along the road to sustainability.
      Artificial fertilizers are great in the short term but long term they are not a solution for any country that is in any way sustainable.

    5. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      How much m per kg meat do you need and how much m per kg vegetables do you need. Then how much kgs of meat/vegetables do you need to eat to get the required food into your system,...

      Unless the animal that you are eating is 100% efficient and doesn't expend any energy staying alive, it will need to eat more plant matter to provide you with the meat to eat than you would need to eat for the same nutrition. You shouldn't need a citation for that, because ten seconds of thinking will show that it's obvious.

      The only time that it is more efficient to use animals for food is when you have land that can't support any food crops that humans can eat. There are lots of places in the world where this is true.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by Rolgar · · Score: 1

      Well they shouldn't be using grains to feed the cattle. Just leave it as natural savannah pasture, and let the animals eat the grass. It's naturally health for the environment, the animals, and the people who eat the meat. I've even read that there are methods of pasture management that can more than triple the number of animals that can live in an area. Do this, and you can support more animals with a given amount of land than with grain feed.

    7. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by chrb · · Score: 1

      Sustainable Energy - without the hot air , Chapter 13 Food and farming, David JC MacKay

      The vegan has the smallest footprint: 3 kWh per day of energy from the plants he eats. A typical dairy diet adds 1.5 kWh/d to that. Meat adds 8 kWh/d. Include eggs 1 kWh/d. The total comes to 12 kWh per day, so the typical person chooses a diet that requires four times more energy to produce than the typical vegan diet.

      Since vegans aren't all dead, I'm going to assume that a vegan diet would be survivable for most people.

    8. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      But it doesn't matter how much more land it takes, since you can't necessarily grow vegetables on it anyway. It's far cheaper and easier - and ecologically cleaner - for me to graze sheep on it then eat the sheep, than it is for me to burn hundreds of litres of oil pumping tonnes of petrochemical-derived fertiliser onto the land.

    9. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by aethelrick · · Score: 1

      Screw that, I'm an omnivore! I offer my dentition as evidence of this fact. Vegan humans (especially raw vegan humans) make about as much sense as frikkin pandas. These evolutionary oddities struggle to subsist on the WRONG diet! It really does not matter how you feel about this... the world will not convert to your way of thinking. People are fundamentally concerned with themselves and their own tiny corner of the planet and they are not likely to do anything that does not directly benefit themselves or people they are directly involved with. While I understand your motives and even agree with them (concerning efficient use of energy, not leaf-eating); I suspect it's far more likely that we (as a species) will back the guy who figures out how to make a better/cleaner power plant than the veggie-toting-overlord mandating thrice daily lettuce! On a more serious note (yes flamers, the above was less than serious); reducing consumption of energy will only be happily/willingly embraced by consumers if they do not have to give up their addiction to the stuff the energy gets them e.g. car, computer, light, TV, tasty food etc. The unhappy consumer votes for the opposition even if the current government is doing the right thing for the planet. Yup, that's the mob for you, about as smart as dirt. This simple sad fact is why voters favour green policies only as long as the prices don't go up and the lights stay on. I'm not really sure what this has to do with the state of affairs in Africa however. I grew up in Africa myself and my own feelings after LIVING THERE for more than half my life is that the west needs to leave Africa alone. For crying out loud stop sending aid! The west is a bit like that annoying relative that keeps giving you shit you don't need or want. There is a whole generation of Ethiopians that think food comes in 25Kg bags labelled "Food Aid". Many African countries have wonderful diverse eco-systems with excellent soil quality and many African countries have active (and advanced) farming techniques. It is wrong to assume that Africa is a continent of totally backward cavemen (indeed talking about "Africa" like it's a country is bloody stupid as well, it's huge!). If you truly want to enable Africa to succeed, then allow it equal trade opportunities usually only afforded to 1st and 2nd world economies. Another sad fact... if equal trade opportunities became available to African business people then Europe and and US would find themselves facing yet another rising industrial power fuelled by cheap (and I mean DAMN cheap) labour. This cheap labour is eager to earn and even more eager to learn, given the chance African economies would boom. Aid and outside interference retard Africa's development, African people need to BE the masters of their OWN destinies and they are never going to do this if the rest of the world constantly intervene and feed/clothe/poke/subjugate/exploit them. Peace, stability and wealth cannot be given to a continent, these things must be built by those who live there otherwise they will not value them and guard them and they will soon be lost again.

    10. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So you pick some optimal animal production and put it against the theoretical worst plant production. That just demonstrates you know you are wrong, because you didn't compare the best of each or the worst of each (in both those cases, veggies win).

    11. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      How can veggies "win" if you can't actually get them to grow?

    12. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If you can't get anything to grow, then you can't graze animals there. If you can graze animal, you can pluck /trim the grass/grain and feed it to people with greater efficiency than the animal meat.

    13. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      I don't really see how that works. Humans can't eat grass, because we are monogastric. Our stomachs can't break down the tough cellulose at a rate that would let us get a useful amount of energy out of it.

      You can't grow grain on moorland, because the soil is unsuitable, and you can't cultivate it with machinery because it's too boggy, rocky or vertical. It's not like Farmville, you can't just click a little square and watch plants spring up.

      It's just fine for grazing sheep on, though, because they don't mind it being steep and rocky and they have evolved with a ruminant digestive system and suitable teeth for eating tough grasses and heathers.

    14. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try to put some of what you speak into practice, Gordonjcp. It would help you separate some assumptions from reality. And I mean this in a good way. The ideas are there. They just have to honed with some experience. Even if it only involves a planter on your windowsill and a rabbit in a hutch. You've definitely got the right idea about using land for what it is appropriate and recapturing nutrients from sewage.

      I left a dream job in a city because it became impossible for me to ignore the damage my daily existence was having. We moved to a small town and bought a rural property. But even before leaving the city, I tried all kinds of wacky things, like growing a garden (gasp!), raising ducks in our back yard (they got too loud), and composting virtually all of our household organic waste (including number's one and two). Since moving, we've put in a much bigger garden, have made a second attempt at ducks (processing them for meat is a great deal of work), started a flock of sheep, and more recently started raising rabbits. The emphasis has been on building up the nutrients in our properties very tired soils, which means capturing nutrients that fall out of the hind end of our animals (and ourselves). Composting is an important part of this.

      The E. Coli. concerns you raise are very short-lived. If the waste were composted or spread well before harvest (or even planting), there is no need to sterilize. Joseph Jenkins' The Humanure Handbook is a pretty in-depth look into composting what most would consider the worst possible compostable (human poop).

      Goats are browsers. They look up for their food, not down, and do well on woody shrubs and trees. Sheep and cows are grazers, and do better on pasture. Use of browsers and grazers both have their place, but an emphasis on grazers seems to make sense.

      Careful grazing with ruminants can definitely be used to turn poor grassland into more productive land, but it's harder than you might think. After four years of trying to put management intensive grazing (MIG) into practice, I am just now beginning to succeed. The land I manage looks much better, in places, than the neighbour's over-grazed pasture, but I have a long way to go. Lack of rainfall can definitely limit any progress towards more productive pastures.

      Doing the right thing is both a lot of work and knowledge-intensive. I completely underestimated both.

    15. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      That article doesn't tell the whole story, though. It leaves out the cost of actually producing the vegetables that you eat, which involves an unholy amount of oil. Lots of oil is used to make fertiliser, and then even more oil is used to run the tractors that spread the fertiliser, plough the fields, and so on.

      Arguably vegans can be worse in this regard, since they're more likely to eat things like soya that have to be shipped half way round the planet, using even *more* oil.

    16. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Obvious troll is obvious.

    17. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      According to this, http://www.ted.com/talks/willie_smits_restores_a_rainforest.html

      He was able to increase rainfall by 20% (restored it to normal). I wonder how much of Africa is suitable for such restoration practices? Of course the chosen plants and overall strategy would be different, but just as building infrastructure promotes growth, I bet that projects to restore forests and jungles would help Africa immensely.

    18. Re:Grow stuff that is appropriate for the area. by chrb · · Score: 1

      That article doesn't tell the whole story, though. It leaves out the cost of actually producing the vegetables that you eat

      No it doesn't. The whole point of that particular chapter of the book is to show the overall cost of producing the various food types, including the cost of oil, fertiliser etc.

      Read the book if you are actually interested in this stuff - it provides a very good "physicists perspective" of energy usage, with all of the figures cited to actual published research.

      Arguably vegans can be worse in this regard

      Scientists have actually studied the energy cost of producing various diets, and the research shows that the vegan diet is the lowest. The energy cost of growing plants and feeding them to animals and then eating the animals exceeds the energy cost of growing and eating plants alone. There is a loss of efficiency for each stage of the path. btw, Shipping has a low energy cost in contrast to other freight transport.

  13. For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid! by little1973 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    --
    Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
    1. Re:For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid! by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In addition to that article, I'd add that there's a strong inverse correlation between economic development and population growth. The vast majority of population growth is in developing countries. Industrialized nations have close to zero and in some cases negative population growth. Food, clean water, and medicinal aid to developing countries may be well-intentioned, but it's just exacerbating the problem. Families which would've stopped after x babies continue to have more offspring because of the availability of food and water. Africans who would've died of starvation or disease survive, adding to a population which isn't sustainable with the infrastructure that's present there.

      We're tackling the problem backwards. Instead of treating the symptoms, we need to be treating the problem. First and foremost, we need to be helping African nations build an economic base. Help the countries there establish stable governments conducive to economic growth, develop educational structures to provide a skilled workforce, and provide economic assistance to help them start up their own businesses and trade. Once you get the economic ball rolling, they will build their own fresh water wells and distribution system; they will build their own farms and irrigation canals; they will build their own hospitals and train their own doctors. Doing it the way we're doing - providing food, water, and medicine for free - is just increasing their population while killing what economies they have. We're stunting their economic growth while simultaneously moving the goalpost of economic self-sustainability further away.

    2. Re:For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      That is not entirely true. However, aid must be administered on small scale. In order for aid to be effective it must be distributed by individuals to individuals.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    3. Re:For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid! by J'raxis · · Score: 1

      Nice. I was just about to post that myself.

    4. Re:For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid! by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      You need the cooperation of the local population, both in terms of general community support, but also in terms of labor. So while aid may be helping to continue a cycle of poverty, aid vs infrastructure is a chicken egg type problem.

      In other words, you won't get much support for digging a canal from a starving person. Likewise, starvation / desperation leads to short term thinking. People won't wait a season or two while a fruit field matures if the trees can be used for cooking fuel now, and all the fruit can be eaten now.

      Some one posted this above, and it was really interesting. http://www.ted.com/talks/willie_smits_restores_a_rainforest.html
      A multi-phase, scientifically crafted, community supported, systematic way of both providing for the local populace while restoring the environment.

      In a nutshell, different parts of the land were identified as needing different strategies to be productive. People were given plots of land, with rules about use. Must let this type of tree remain, must not cut down X, etc.. but can plant x,y,z types of food in years 1, types a,b,c in year 3, etc.. And then 20 or so plots were combined into an organization of farmers that enforced those rules. So if Joe Jackass decides to cut down all the trees holding the soil in place on his plot, the other 19 farming families could chose his punishment.

  14. How about we just stop "helping" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Africa is perfectly capable of growing enough food to feed its people. Many nations are capable of growing enough food to export the surplus. The problems are distribution, largely related to corruption and violence. It seems nearly everything we do just makes it worse. The free food shipments have a list of unintended consequences long enough to terrify you. It simultaneously props up the craven warlords that don't like us while depressing the prices for locally grown food so the farmers can't sell any excess they might grow for the tools that they need to buy the tools the need to continue to farm, much less other life expenses like clothes. Tools and clothes wear out, and if you destroy the local economies with our generousity, it does not help these people. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as the old saying goes. And hell, I'm not the only one saying it. Good intentions don't matter. Bad results do.

    1. Re:How about we just stop "helping" by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 2

      Really? You mean dumping and unlimited supply of free food and lowering prices destroys the ability of the local farmers to make a living?

      I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that western governments and NGOs have been spending an enormous amount of other people's money "helping" in a way that never actually solves the problem but assures themselves perfect job security.

    2. Re:How about we just stop "helping" by htomc42 · · Score: 1

      Let's assume that we do dump even more billions into Africa, and make it sustainable agriculturally. To the extent that the culture and technology has been raised there, what can the world expect from it? Would it be more of what we're seeing now? What -have- we gotten for all the past aid, except massive amounts of fraud and corruption? Does the world really need a billion more 419 scammers?

    3. Re:How about we just stop "helping" by JackPepper · · Score: 1

      In addition, the U.S. should stop subsidizing it's farmers. Having to compete with a country that pays for over production is very tough.

    4. Re:How about we just stop "helping" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Africa is perfectly capable of growing enough food to feed its people.

      As others have already commented, Africa is fractured and diverse. Not everyone has the ability to feed themselves. The aid is still needed, but the key is to avoid giving to for profit charities like the red cross, and give to charities that have established networks that actually provide a large portion of the aid you give to those that need it. The Catholic Relief Service offers emergency aid like this, not only in Africa, but has a presence in various parts of the world. I've also heard that "micro-loans" are doing good things for helping to develop economies in places where it can do more good long term. However, that would involve finding out who provides them and giving appropriately, and I'm not in a position to help there. You might be able to research opportunities yourself.

    5. Re:How about we just stop "helping" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best aid you can give is technology and instruction.

    6. Re:How about we just stop "helping" by ProgramErgoSum · · Score: 1

      I think, it was Mahatma Gandhi who said, "Nature has enough for every man's need but not for his greed."

  15. What is /.? Invisible Children now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But seriously... strange set of questions for a geeks' board.

    While reduction of starvation can certainly help in reducing the myriad of fundamental infrastructure issues that Africa faces - banking, education, basic democracy (which is scarce on the continent), effective tamping down of militaristic regimes that ARE commonplace, and of course systemic corruption - all now removed from the long history of European colonialism that dominated Africa for centuries - it seems to me that even widespread starvation isn't even the fundamental problem with Africa. Basic proper governance is the problem and it will take the people of these countries to fix it.

    And I can't imagine there aren't very large areas of sub-Saharan African that aren't eminently arable. If vast jungles exist in Africa, I can't see why they can't grow most or all of the food they need. Do Egyptians suffer from widespread starvation when most of that country is a desert? Don't think so.

  16. Quoting Professor Kinnison by symbolset · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Move to where the food is."

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:Quoting Professor Kinnison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yup. "See this? This is sand. You know what it's gonna be a hundred years from now? IT'S GONNA BE SAND!!"

    2. Re:Quoting Professor Kinnison by Pope · · Score: 2

      And when they was no meat we ate fowl. And when they was no fowl we ate crawdad. And when they was no crawdad to be found, we ate Sand.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    3. Re:Quoting Professor Kinnison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Move to where the food is."

      Snarfy comments like that make me want to punch someone. Not everyone has that option and a great many people consider it an option of last resort. Not to mention that being where the food is isn't going to do squat for you unless you can manage to obtain some of that food for yourself, which is something that a lot of people who are already there typically have problems doing even though they know who's who and what's what already.

      Africa is a continent, and has such, has a diverse range of climates and soils. And guess what? Surprise! Relatively few people live in the places that are obviously hopeless. Most of the places where people starve have at least some potential for food production. And they also have some bastard controlling things so that the food either doesn't get produced or doesn't get to the people who need it.

      An awful lot of Africa's problems would diminish if they could just disburden themselves of the thugs with the guns. It doesn't do any good to teach a man to fish if you own the lake as your own private reserve.

      There are no simple solutions that work everywhere and for everyone. In some cases, it might actually be best if people could produce something that's of sufficient value to be able to afford importing enough to east. It's not my preferred solution, because external circumstances can change. In some cases, bringing in external fertilizers may work. Once again, not ideal. But any solution is better than none. If there's a solution that merely makes life good enough to discover and develop self-sustaining practices, it's worth pursuing. Only an idiot thinks one simple solution is enough.

    4. Re:Quoting Professor Kinnison by queequeg1 · · Score: 1

      "An awful lot of Africa's problems would diminish if they could just disburden themselves of the thugs with the guns. It doesn't do any good to teach a man to fish if you own the lake as your own private reserve."

      This comment reminded me of an article I read a while ago in the NYT that presented an interesting theory about how to avoid famines.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/01/arts/does-democracy-avert-famine.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

    5. Re:Quoting Professor Kinnison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but we don't want them here!

  17. Aquaponics by Essef · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have recently started an aquaponics system at home. I'm African, but an expat living overseas. I am massively impressed with the potential for this particular technology to allow for microfarming on small tracts or even in your backyard.
    Benefits I persieve so far:
          a) High yields over comparable soil-based techniques
          b) Allows for both protein and carbs to be sourced from one system
          c) Staples like corn have been successfully grown on *very* short cycles
          d) Small family-sized setups can be built to supplement a small family's needs or large "community systems" can be built to leverage economies of scale.
          e) Highly efficient water use compared to soil-based methods with only losses due to evaporation.
          f) Once it gets started the system is self-stabilising

    Challenges I see:
        g) Technically not the easiest thing to get started
        h) Cycling the system to establish the nutrient and bacterial load can take up to a month
        i) First fish harvest can take up to 9 months (Tilapia)
        j) A typical flood-and-drain system needs a waterpump running 24/7 as well as potentially an airpump for the fishes. Electricity !?

    I would be very much in favour of aid which goes toward establish self-sustaining community farms. I'm not a fan of aid which breeds dependency.

    1. Re:Aquaponics by Aryden · · Score: 1

      for part j, I am not sure how much energy is needed by the pump, but could a wind mill accomplish the energy needs? I'm talking on a mechanical level not necessarily electricity generating.

    2. Re:Aquaponics by Essef · · Score: 1

      This is also well worth a read :

      How to Grow More Vegetables: Than You Ever Thought Possible on Less Land Than You Can Imagine - John Jeavons

    3. Re:Aquaponics by Essef · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm currently running an AC waterpump capable of delivering 3000liters per hour at pump exit, and less than half of that at 1.5 m head height. This pump uses a whopping 40W of electricity.
      I think that a windmill is an excellent idea, however since the wind can be rather fickle, I don't know how one would keep the nutrient-rich water flowing, and the fishtanks aerated.
      An alternative is to have a biodiesel pump. There is a particular waterplant called "duckweed" which makes an excellent fish food, and also just so happens to have enormous potential as a biodiesel. Estimates are of delivering 200L of biodiesel from a modest planting of the stuff.

      It certainly is a sticky problem and one which I've wrestled with for some time now.

    4. Re:Aquaponics by Aryden · · Score: 1

      if 40w is all you need you could combine sources with wind + solar with battery stores. It is entirely dependent on where you live though so having something like the biodiesel generator as backup would work.

    5. Re:Aquaponics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, (j) shouldn't be much of a problem. It is Africa. Do one of those simple solar towers that MIT were "boasting" about inventing recently, stupid amounts of power for several of these in series.

      But yes, I agree. Aquaponics is the way of the future. As well as insect farming.
      Vertical farming, additionally, will have to happen if we still continue to farm animals to feed growing numbers of mouths with meat.
      All of these are possible now and really should be encouraged, or funded by government to helper farmers get an initial start
      Food waste recycling should be encouraged as well. This stuff is incredibly valuable as a resource for farming.
      Doesn't even need to be food waste either, random leaves, grass cuttings, valuable. But these should be kept at the homes rather than shifted away to farms. We don't want large sections of residential areas dying. in however many years it would take.

      Help them with soil recovery and food that doesn't require absolutely perfect conditions for growth.
      Then over time, simple aquaponics systems.
      Where they go from there would be up to them, but these things with the right knowledge should be enough for them to kickstart their own recovery.
      If not, then Africa is doomed.

      This should be done everywhere. Even larger-scale versions in 1st world countries at that.
      Aquaponics can get such large returns in such little space if you build them right.
      Insect farms can get you large amounts of nutrients for very little maintenance, gets around the whole "wah you are eating animals!" folks, and can be made in to various types of foods to disguise the fact that they were in fact insects.
      An insect patty is pretty delicious, and probably more nutritious than all other meat types.
      And of course, large-scale, multi-story vertical animal farms are going to be required as the decades pass, unless we want to see more horrible cases of animals packed in to one tight floor and getting trampled. People will still love their meats.
      These need to happen now. It is the best way to deal with the inevitable food crises that are going to hit again. So much of our food is transported around the world unneeded, increasing their prices even more.
      It makes sense with certain food, but others are just completely obtuse when they can be grown in the country in question.

    6. Re:Aquaponics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am all in favor of closed-circuit, controlled environment agriculture. Fertilizing and irrigating soil in outdoors farming is like trying to warm up a house by keeping a bonfire next to it! Water evaporates or leaks down to lower layers of soil and fertilizers are mostly washed away by the excess of water. The light supplied by Sun is usually minor part in energy equation, dwarfed by energy consumed to operate machinery, synthesize and apply excessive amounts of fertilizers pesticides and water.

      IMHO the future is robotic factory indoors multistory continuous farming with completely controlled environment, efficient artificial lighting and elevated CO2 supply (boosting biomass production and at the same time eliminating animal and insect pests). That way the problem of arable land area is just swept off the tabletop and we can return most of the natural environment back to the wildlife.

    7. Re:Aquaponics by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      Don't forget security. It won't help a family if they build this, if their neighbors raid it once their food runs out. So you need to get a high enough % of the population to operate these, so they can band together for protection. Then you run into the water problems, when the local supplies can't sustain so many systems.

    8. Re:Aquaponics by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      Those things sound expensive and fairly easy to steal. So how long do you suppose it's going to take your starving neighbors to figure out that you have a month's supply of food sitting on your roof glinting in the sun?

    9. Re:Aquaponics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you post a link to some good info sites on aquaponics systems such as yours?

      Thanks

    10. Re:Aquaponics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. I read through this whole thread and this is one of the few posts that was about solutions that slashdotters could actually wrestle with, not just bickering about politics and religion etc that you can find on many other forums.

    11. Re:Aquaponics by Aryden · · Score: 1

      Dunno, how many deterrents do you have? How much are you sharing with them? Are you willing to use them as fertilizer?

    12. Re:Aquaponics by bridgey655 · · Score: 1

      That's great, you can go further and try to make the system self sufficient. See aquaponics, cybernated farm systems, vertical organic self sufficient farming, automated farming.. we CAN already do this. It is not profitable to do so. But money is just ink, paper and numbers on a computer screen. They don't have it in star trek - we DON'T need it now! See www.thevenusproject.com for more information and watch www.zeitgeistmovingforward.com :)

    13. Re:Aquaponics by Black+Gold+Alchemist · · Score: 1

      Another solution with wind alone might be to build a sort of water tower. You could pump water up to the top of the tower whenever the wind was active. Then all that water could fall down and during that process pump more water. In essence, you could use water as an energy storage medium, thereby eliminating all the batteries and biodiesel and stuff. You can also put the wind turbine on the water tower, saving construction costs. If you make the water tower taller than the height of the 1.5 meters you are actually pumping the water, you can use falling water to pump more water. A brief math explanation:
      Let H_t be the height of the tower from the bottom of the farm.
      Let H_f be the height of the top of the farm from the bottom of the farm. (1.5 m in your case)
      g = earth's gravity.
      Note 1 kg of water = 1 liter of water.
      Now, for every kg of water in the tower, (H_t - H_f) * g joules of energy are released. Each kg pulled up from the bottom of the tower uses up H_f * g joules of energy. So thus, every kg down can lift up (H_t/H_f - 1) kgs of water. So, if the tower is 15 meters tall, then you only need 1 kg to get 9 kg up. In your case, for example, if the tower is 15 m tall and you want 3000 kg/hour, you only need 300 liters of water in the tower to run it for an hour assuming your mechanical pumping system is 100% efficient (obvious it won't be, but it probably will be pretty close). The falling water can also run the air pump, solving that problem while you're at it. You can still have the electric system as a back up. Note that it is often much more windy at night than during the day so you might want a 24 hour storage system. This might get big, but if you are already building a huge tower for the wind turbine, it might not be all that bad.

      --
      Responsibility is an addiction
      Virtue is a temptation
      Community is a cartel
    14. Re:Aquaponics by Essef · · Score: 1

      I've found a solution of sorts for my pump problem. See Air Lift Pumps. There are already commercial windmill-powered systems for drawing well water so the problem is well understood. I've even seen people experiment with these in aquaponics using aquarium pumps (massively underpowered).

      I now think that a cheap $50 diesel air compressor might be made to run using biodiesel produced from duckweed.

      Thanks for all the comments and suggestions !

  18. I'd also like to say by Aryden · · Score: 1

    Let the countries in Africa decide on how to deal with their food issues. Meanwhile, here in the U.S., we should divert this energy into trying to keep our people fed. I'm getting real tired of hearing about all of these "food deficient" children on the tv.

    1. Re:I'd also like to say by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      Let the countries in Africa decide on how to deal with their food issues. Meanwhile, here in the U.S., we should divert this energy into trying to keep our people fed. I'm getting real tired of hearing about all of these "food deficient" children on the tv.

      I more or less agree but feel the need to point out that the average US citizen eats 10 times the food of the average Chinese citizen. Most Americans overeat to a degree the rest of the world finds bizarre.

    2. Re:I'd also like to say by Aryden · · Score: 1

      I agree whole-heartedly. It doesn't help that half the commercials on tv are either food establishments or drug commercials. Combine that with the fact the people in metro areas generally have dozens of food spots within spitting distance of home. Overall, we're one of the laziest countries and when you're being lazy , sitting in the house, you eat, shagg and sleep.

    3. Re:I'd also like to say by Jonner · · Score: 1

      To the extent that people are lacking for food in the US, it is a distribution problem as it is in most of Africa. We're producing so much excess maize that people have found crazy ways to use it up like creating high fructose corn syrup and car fuel.

    4. Re:I'd also like to say by Aryden · · Score: 1

      or they would rather sell it at artificial prices instead of donating it to shelters. Hell, I would say do away with the WIC program and just give them vouchers for a co-op farmers market system.

  19. Eat babies! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What? Everyone thought it was all cool when Jonathan Swift said it.

  20. Practicality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm an African. We cannot afford to waste resources we don't have on "sustainable approaches" when we can simply copy what has worked well everywhere.

    1. Re:Practicality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That kind of thinking is the issue. What works everywhere else won't work for Africa. The culture is different, the land is different, the weather is different, the needs are different. It requires a bespoke solution. Africa potentially has a lot of resources (oil but perhaps more importantly sun) that could be monetized to pay for the sustainable approaches with less risk if there was more structured organisation of state and government.

  21. So many factors, and I only know a couple. by GoodNewsJimDotCom · · Score: 1

    26 million people die each year to malnutrition and lack of clean drinking water. The cost of saving a life of one person each day is .33. So the cost for a year is $100. The cost to solve world hunger for a year is 3 billion. The cost to put into motion long term projects to solve world hunger is 30 billion as posed by the UN. The thing we should examine in ourselves is,"Based on the way I live, could I spare some money to help the poor?" It is similar to when Oscar Schindler broke down because he didn't sell his watch and car to save more lives. World hunger could be solved if enough people worked towards a solution.

    One solution that doesn't work great is dumping food into areas. By exporting food to impoverished areas, you solve the problem for the short term, but if you stop doing it, there will be no farmers. Why will there be no farmers? Supply and demand kills the demand for food and farmers can't stay in business when dumping occurs. Think to devious competition schemes people have in capitalism when you want to make your competitor go broke. You simply drop the price on your goods where everyone is losing money, but you'll make it back after your competitor goes broke.

    This is not to say all dumping is bad. You can dump food into crisis areas, and also provide a version of food stamps too so local farmers get paid. Food stamps is a great way to drive up demand for local foods.

    In all this, depending on how much governmental aid or resistance you get is a wild card.

    I like the notion of growing fruit trees. In case a farmer dies, or wars and revolutions, fruit trees remain.

    The whole matter should be treated seriously. When you look at the US budget 30 billion to solve world hunger doesn't seem like a whole lot, and maybe it is deceptively small. You'd think the UN would have a bunch of countries teaming up to solve hunger, but do you think the reason they don't is the guns/butter slider? If you donate food to someone like North Korea, they'll just build more weapons with their extra money. I'm not sure I buy this argument.

    Anyone know the popular arguments why governments don't band together and try and solve world hunger?

    1. Re:So many factors, and I only know a couple. by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      $30 billion is not much. Bill Gates could fund that personally, if he wanted. Yet he chooses to fund other research - while also important possible doesn't have as much bang for the buck when it comes to saving lives. The US has spent a multitude of that for "rebuilding" Iraq and Afghanistan (which wouldn't be necessary in case they hadn't spent a similar amount into demolishing it to begin with, but that's another discussion). There is no reason a rich country like the US could not afford as little as $30 bln to solve world hunger.

      Without having read the proposal I mainly wonder how the UN thinks to have that money actually spent on the target, instead of ending up in the pockets of the people in power in those countries. As that corruption is one of the major obstacles that stand in the way of improving people's livelyhoods.

      The fact that this plan is not being implemented is for me a major indication that it's simply not feasible.

    2. Re:So many factors, and I only know a couple. by khallow · · Score: 2

      The cost to put into motion long term projects to solve world hunger is 30 billion as posed by the UN.

      That's low enough that Africa could do it all themselves.

      Anyone know the popular arguments why governments don't band together and try and solve world hunger?

      It's throwing good money after bad.

    3. Re:So many factors, and I only know a couple. by pthisis · · Score: 1

      $30 billion is not much. Bill Gates could fund that personally, if he wanted. Yet he chooses to fund other research - while also important possible doesn't have as much bang for the buck when it comes to saving lives.

      Bill's charitable giving is actually pretty savvy at targeting his charity to high-reward areas, and lack of clean drinking water and agricultural development are two of his bigger targets (along with HIV/AIDS, malaria, mother/child deaths, and vaccination, all of which are pretty high on the bang-for-the-buck when it comes to saving lives). FWIW the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation has given $15 billion to global health and $3.5 billion to global development over the last 15 years (as well as $6 billion in American charitable donations) and Gates has announced his plans to give away $60 billion more over the next couple of decades; Warren Buffet is giving away the vast majority of his fortune through the Gates Foundation as well, at a current rate of around $1.5-2 billion/year.

      http://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/Pages/foundation-fact-sheet.aspx has more detail on exactly where the Gates Foundation money goes; it's much more transparent than a lot of huge charities.

      --
      rage, rage against the dying of the light
    4. Re:So many factors, and I only know a couple. by SQL+Error · · Score: 1

      That's the cost on the ground. The problem is, to get the aid where it's needed, you'd often have to shoot people. There are a lot of vested interested in keeping particular groups starving and miserable, whether it's national politics, tribal politics, or religion.

      Starvation in Africa is not an agricultural problem; if it were we'd have solved it by now. It's a political problem.

    5. Re:So many factors, and I only know a couple. by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      What you need is 30 billion AND the control of how they are spent. 30 billion for weapons and government car's won't stop hunger. So the only choice would be taking over countries while you're helping them, or finding a government that is not completely corrupt. And guess what, there aren't many around in Africa. And those that do exist mostly don't have problems with food supplies (South Africa). So what has to happen is that Africans themselves have to sort out their governments. Until that happens most aid programs will just make things worse.

    6. Re:So many factors, and I only know a couple. by Jonner · · Score: 1

      Anyone know the popular arguments why governments don't band together and try and solve world hunger?

      The most obvious reason governments don't band together and try and solve world hunger is that it's not in their interest. A government may be expected to try to eliminate hunger among its people, but feeding foreign people is not its purpose or responsibility. If you look at governments in North Korea and some African nations, it's clear that eliminating hunger of their own people isn't even desirable.

      Pragmatically, if governemnts in the richest country in the world can't eliminate hunger among their own people, how could they or any other government expect to succeeed on the other side of the world? Though feeding foreign people is not the responsibility of a governemnt, I have far more hope that organizations that were formed for that purpose can improve things.

  22. Don't feed them! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Don't feed them. You're not everyone's nurse, no matter how much you would like to be.

    Besides, by feeding them you only sew suffering for future Africans and quite frankly, for us to. What is this mental disease that makes people think we should fight to have billions and billions of people live forever? Do you have no understanding of how the world works? How sheltered were you?

    1. Re:Don't feed them! by delinear · · Score: 1

      What is this mental disease that makes people think we should fight to have billions and billions of people live forever?

      I think it's called "humanity". You are right that it's cold logic, the head and not the heart, that will solve these issues, but for most people it's not so easy to divorce the two concepts; to know you have enough to live comfortably and to watch children starve.

  23. Solution by roman_mir · · Score: 1

    Solution is to stop subsidising farming everywhere. Africa could supply huge amounts of grown food much cheaper than many other places can, but there is a problem: other places are heavily subsidised and compared to the wealthy nations that do the subsidies, African nations cannot compete.

    Of-course that, and stopping with the meddling of the foreign affairs of countries of the world, maybe no longer supporting the dictators that are convenient to support.

  24. Supply and Demand Growth by sociocapitalist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is immaterial how much can be grown so long as there is no widespread use of contraception. The more food grown, the more mouths there will be demanding the food grown.

    --
    blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    1. Re:Supply and Demand Growth by physicsphairy · · Score: 1

      The United Kingdom has a population density of 255 people/km^2. The Netherlands has a population density of 404 people/km^2. Singapore has a population density of 7148 people/km^2. Africa has a populatin density of 25 people/km^2, and if you like you can check for the invidual countries. It's high for a few countries, but it should be obvious at this point that "overpopulation" is not the problem any more than it is for highly populated eastern and western countries.

      For that matter, even food is not the problem. Money is the problem. If you really care about overpopulation, well, guess what? Wealthy countries have low very population growth. In some cases, their populations may be shrinking (usually made up for by immigration). If you want to curb the population growth in Africa, your best bet is to make them rich.

      Farming is at least a partial solution to the money problem. These countries are not yet wealthy enough to be spending significant money on importing food. Converely, though, poor countries can use their low labor costs as an advantage in selling into the global market. (A major problem with western "aid" is that it is temporary assistance which provides no sustainable livelihoods, and our habit of using our vast wealth to subsidize our own farmers to let them compete unfairly.) As their net wealth increases, the countries will be able to support greater education and improvements to livelihood and transition away from agricultural to more lucrative pursuits, just as we've been able to do.

      So, yes, fixing the soil in Africa is a going to be helpful in resolving its present social issues.

    2. Re:Supply and Demand Growth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The more food grown, the more mouths there will be demanding the food grown."

      The historic record points the other way: higher living standard = smaller families.

    3. Re:Supply and Demand Growth by Nimey · · Score: 1

      You're making the erroneous assumption that more food production necessarily causes a higher standard of living. You need a lot of other things to get that standard of living up, such as a stable economic base, sanitation, equal law enforcement, no wars, &c.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    4. Re:Supply and Demand Growth by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      I'm not concerned about their population density. Obviously it could be higher.

      I'm saying that because they tend not to use birth control, and tend to have as many children as possible, demand for the food would increase linearly with the production of the food.

      From an economics standpoint, supply would go up but demand would also go up, pushed by local demand due to an increased population along with the exporting of the food to those who can pay more. What you purport can only happen if demand remains stable - either by restricting exports or by...birth control.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    5. Re:Supply and Demand Growth by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      You're making the erroneous assumption that my assumption is erroneous :-) Couldn't resist saying it even though I am not sure where you got your analysis from as I've said nothing of the kind.

      I'm not assuming that increasing the food supply would do anything other than keeping a few more people in the country from going hungry, thus allowing the population to increase by some degree, thus increasing the demand for food, thus raising the price of food, thus having some number of people going hungry.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    6. Re:Supply and Demand Growth by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      But isn't it pretty much proven that contraceptive use climbs only after a nation begins to gain wealth? It seems given that fact, that you'd want to build infrastructure and 'teach people to fish' before pushing contraception.

    7. Re:Supply and Demand Growth by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      I don't know...is it proven? Haven't seen anything to this effect but if you have sources I'm open to reading them.

      I can believe it from the perspective that wealth implies some level of security (though America is failing with regard to infant mortality compared to other developing nations).

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    8. Re:Supply and Demand Growth by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2804102.html

      A much more in depth article that describes how scientific opinion has changed over time on this issue. And it points out that I was only partially right. I was basing my statement on stuff I had read probably over 20 years ago.

      In a nutshell, both family planning, contraceptive promotion, and economic development are important in reducing population, with each having a greater impact at different stages of a country's growth.

      Skip down and read the conclusion only if you want, but the paper overall I found really interesting.

  25. One word. by Cosgrach · · Score: 2, Insightful

    CONDOMS.

    --
    Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
    1. Re:One word. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To expand on that a tiny bit: How about we have population sizes that suit the arability of available land and supply of water in bad times. It may seem like a defeatist attitude, but when the world population is on an exponential growth curve there is only one answer. CONDOMS!

      OR... Something as brilliant as China's solution: halve the population in one generation through a one child policy. Well worth a watch: http://youtu.be/umFnrvcS6AQ

    2. Re:One word. by oever · · Score: 1

      While the one child policy is certainly very very good and should be adopted on the entire plant, the effects on population growth and fertility rate are less than you think.

      --
      DNA is the ultimate spaghetti code.
    3. Re:One word. by pthisis · · Score: 1

      How about we have population sizes that suit the arability of available land and supply of water in bad times. It may seem like a defeatist attitude, but when the world population is on an exponential growth curve there is only one answer

      It is not on an exponential growth curve. The world population growth rate peaked c. 1960 and has declined since, and huge parts of the world including Europe and the US already have negative native population growth (though immigration is propping up populations for now). As the rest of the world continues to develop, the world population is projected to begin declining around 2060ish.

      --
      rage, rage against the dying of the light
    4. Re:One word. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Condoms apparently cause AIDS in africa.

  26. Africa is the oldest human society on earth. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Africa is the oldest human society on earth.
    Why is it upon the rest of the world to figure out "How To Feed Africa"?

    1. Re:Africa is the oldest human society on earth. by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      Africa is the oldest human society on earth.
      Why is it upon the rest of the world to figure out "How To Feed Africa"?

      Because the western world is convinced it knows better than the rest of the world. It seems to be a mixture of feel good factor and arrogance.

      The really wicked thing is that Gaddafi's plan for a united states of africa could have helped these people help themselves but the west ( US and France mostly ) had to screw that one up too.

    2. Re:Africa is the oldest human society on earth. by sorak · · Score: 1

      Africa is the oldest human society on earth.
      Why is it upon the rest of the world to figure out "How To Feed Africa"?

      Grandma is the oldest person in my house. Why should it be up to me to feed her?

  27. Compete against who? by pablo_max · · Score: 1

    Who are they competing with? What do US far subsidies have to do with Africa not having enough food? Africa is not a huge consumer of US farm goods.

    I think the point is more that Africa, as a whole (excluding some countries) is not able to produce the amount of food to sustain their population.

    1. Re:Compete against who? by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      African countries could easily output huge amounts of food, but they are prevented from even competing by what I mentioned:
      1. Huge subsidies by most other nations into food supply.
      2. Wars. Many nations in Africa are in a near perpetual state of emergency of some kind, and there is very little that people can do in many places without being destroyed by that sort of activity. Those wars are in large part supported by the foreigners via subsidies to the dictators, arms trade.

    2. Re:Compete against who? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      I don't know about Africa but I have another example for you how US crops can outcompete local farms.

      US produces a lot of heavily subisidised cotton, and exports a lot of it to China to make clothes out of - they produce much more than they can use themselves. China also produces a lot of cotton: lower land cost, lower wages, less transport cost (it's local, no import duties to be paid). Yet the US cotton arrives at the Chinese factory at lower cost than the local Chinese cotton, putting Chinese farmers out of work!

    3. Re:Compete against who? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By the way Subsaharan Africa has had a 5%. annual growth for quite some time now,so things have been moving in the right direction.

      Of course some of this money will end up i western (or Chinese) pockets, but still growth is a good sign. Without gnrowth Africa will get nowhere.

      http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/AFRICAEXT/0,,contentMDK:23004589~pagePK:146736~piPK:226340~theSitePK:258644,00.html

    4. Re:Compete against who? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they are prevented from even competing by what I mentioned:

      arms trade

      the arms trade is the free market at work. why do you want to interfere with the free market?

    5. Re:Compete against who? by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Free market of governments using tax payer money to buy weapons from preferred corporations so that these weapons can be given as a subsidy to the tyrannical dictators of the world?

      You have some sickly warped understanding of what free market is.

    6. Re:Compete against who? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you subsidice western farmers the price of soil goes up. New farmers have to borrow money to buy fields, so in effect all the subsidies end up as subsidies to the banks.

  28. Permaculture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Simple to feed the lot, they should use PERMACULTURE to green their lands. No fertilizers/pesticides needed, the world is capable of growing itself. Why do we (humans) think we can do something better then that what was around millions of years before us and still is flourishing. Except when we messed it up. Or I should say, we did and maybe still not understand how the earth works.

  29. Have less children, fight overpopulation in Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The problem is they have too many children and Africa is overpopulated when it comes to the ability of the soil to feed the population.

    It should be a natural process to have less children or even die out for some tribes so that others would be able to live in there.
    Look at the Inuits - they have similar situation with food, yet they have no such problems.

    Imagine your family had 10 or more children. You think your parents would have been able to feed you?

    By helping Africa we are only making it worse.
    African people are used to live like that, and if you give them food, they will have even more children and still starve (proven, google it).
    There is no solution to this situation because of the mentality of those people. Sad but true.

  30. well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    [quote] NGOs must decide whether to subsidize chemical fertilizers like those used in the west or promote more sustainable agricultural practices[/quote]

    People should investigate the ties/funding of most important NGO's and realize they have been had all along.

    Too bad most people won't because cognitive dissonance is a bitch (so I'm told).

  31. FUCK NO!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html
    [...]Huge bureaucracies are financed (with the aid money), corruption and complacency are promoted, Africans are taught to be beggars and not to be independent. In addition, development aid weakens the local markets everywhere and dampens the spirit of entrepreneurship that we so desperately need. As absurd as it may sound: Development aid is one of the reasons for Africa's problems. If the West were to cancel these payments, normal Africans wouldn't even notice. Only the functionaries would be hard hit. Which is why they maintain that the world would stop turning without this development aid.[,,,]

    Africa needs education and Internet everywhere. With aid you only support assholes like that christian fundamentalist Joseph Kony.

    Education and Internet

    1. Re:FUCK NO!!!! by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      Education and Internet

      They need books on farming. They lack practical knowledge of large scale farming methods.

      What they don't need is the west screwing around and abusing them more. Just let them get on with it and figure it out for themselves.

    2. Re:FUCK NO!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought it was very funny that when Zimbabwe got taken over by the blacks that the first thing they did is go around seizing farms.. especially from 'white' people... and started to starve.

      They wanted to the land. They wanted the wealth. Very few had the ability to farm properly. If they had been a little bit more intelligent they would have done what the West does and pillaged the white farmers through crippling taxes.

      But no. They came with their guns, killed some, drove others out.

      And starved.

      They deserve to die. They have the land. They have the resources. There is nothing The West can give them on a basic level that they can't make or build themselves. They have the infrastructure. All other problems are of their own making.

      It's like having your 8 year old cousin at a LAN game playing Empire Earth.. who gets his ass pwned on the first game, screams and bitches and cries.. and you play again.. and the next time everyone just builds around him, doesn't invade, and absolutely pounds him if he steps foot outside of his 'base' .. and THEN he complaints that he can't possibly manage to build his own empire.. coommeee heeellppp meeeeee

      Anyway.

      Like little kids who put their hand in the biscuit jar.. these african kiddies need to learn. Dumping resources on them is all well and good, but it really doesn't help them in the long run. It would be far more humane just to kill them all rather than watch them starve and torture themselves to death like they are now. Don't bother invading the place - just surround it and let nothing in or out until the primary problems are resolved. Showing up at the border with the head of every 'politician' would be a good start.

  32. Perhaps Education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe some type of education system would help?
    I dont mean that we teach them to farm, because we have tried and tried to set things up there and it doesnt work. They have no money for maintaining expensive farm equipment and such. So after a year it just sit there.
    I would actually argue that we should not feed Africa. Africa should feed Africa. If you have large group of generally uneducated people with a ready supply of food, they will reproduce until said food supply is no longer available. No one likes to talk about it for fear of being labeled a racist, but it is what would happen. It is no different than those living in a permanent welfare state in the states. On average, they have many more children than the educated class despite their inability to properly provide for them.

  33. Utilize otherwise wasted porn protein... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Utilize otherwise wasted porn protein...
    I mean corn protein ;)

    -HasHie @ TrYPNET.net

  34. Water pipe lines by Barsteward · · Score: 1

    AS they can lay pipe lines for gas and oil, why not lay pipes for water to take water away from those countries that suffer monsoon floods? The more water that pipe away as the monsoon starts the less chance there is for a damaging flood for that area, win-win.

    --
    "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
  35. Stop buying their food exports by solarissmoke · · Score: 1

    Here in Kenya, very productive crop farms (wheat, corn) are been constantly replaced with farms that export fruit, vegetables and flowers to Europe, because government subsidies encourage export over local industry. Not only are the latter much more intensive in their water/energy/chemical requirements, they also mean that the country is seriously dependent on increasingly fickle Western markets (people buy fewer flowers and exotic vegetables in a recession).

    This has happened so much that the country no longer is self-sufficient when it comes to things like wheat and corn (which form the basis of the local diet). We now import these things from places like Russia. If instead we hadn't bothered with silly flower farms and stuck to feeding the local population, things would be a lot less precarious.

    1. Re:Stop buying their food exports by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      So why did you elect the government that did this?

    2. Re:Stop buying their food exports by solarissmoke · · Score: 1

      For the same reason that Russians recently "elected" Putin back into office.

  36. Why would the West do this? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    The ships arrive empty and depart full.
    It is better to deal with a war lord over an area of needed mineral wealth vs a stable 2nd world government. They would demand and get an upfront clean up contract and ongoing outside testing.....
    If Africa gets its own food security- then steps up to eduction, mining, housing, value added exports....
    As it is now you can extract gems, gold, timber, oil for cents in the $. Why risk paying cents + more when you can keep the balance between chaos and a thiefdom for generations.
    So provide a flood of cheap food to suppress local efforts and ensure any real charity work is limited.
    Mix in tame NGO's that keep a majority of their funds and produce feel good efforts on demand.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:Why would the West do this? by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      The ships arrive empty and depart full.

      Colonialism: the gift that keeps on taking.

  37. Two words by dargaud · · Score: 1
    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
    1. Re:Two words by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Yes! Quick, get Africans hooked on fertilizers right before minerals like phosphorus and fossil fuels reach their peaks, after which prices skyrocket. Then their farmers will all go bankrupt and their land can be had for a song. Smart idea. We need to get rid of a couple billion people anyway.

  38. Down with Discusses by lucm · · Score: 1, Interesting

    This is off-topic but I have to say, whenever I see a post that ends with "Discuss." I feel the urge to print it then crumple the printout, stick it in a garbage bag full of dead squirrels, then hire a bum that has to eat asparagus for an entire day before peeing in the bag, then set the bag in the sun and let it simmer for a week, then build a brick wall around it, then spray a bunch of lame graffitis on that wall, then build a low quality house around that wall and sell the house to low quality people that I know will not take good care of it, then when there is a foreclosure (which is unavoidable) buy the house back then build a huge barn around it and put a sign on it saying: here lies arrogance.

    To whom it may concern: take your _discusses_ and do something unbearably disgusting with them.

    I'd rather get stuck in an elevator with six mouth breathers, a stinker and a middle-aged woman selling Quixtar products than take one more "Discuss.".

    --
    lucm, indeed.
    1. Re:Down with Discusses by Lev13than · · Score: 1

      I can't help but notice that your post also ends with the word "Discuss". Was that intentional irony or merely a coincidence? Discuss.

      --
      When you have nothing left to burn you must set yourself on fire
  39. Chemical fertilizer vs permaculture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    My daughter is currently a Peace Corps volunteer in Malawi and this has been a pretty hot topic in our conversations. Fuel shortages make producing petro-based fertilizers very expensive and transporting it out to the countryside very difficult. Lack of foreign exchange money make importing difficult also, but aid dollars are available for it. The Malawi government encourages use of chemical fertilizers and it is still the default method.
    My daughter and most volunteers are trained by PC in permaculture and organic gardening for their personal use for sustainability, plus its is much cheaper (they have to get by on next to nothing and pretzel M&M shipments from their folks...). There are reasonable numbers of livestock scattered throughout and she is working with local groups to set up manure composting businesses locally in her district. It takes about 4x manure (her figure, seems low to me) for the same fertilization value you get from chemical fertilizers. It's more work and more susceptible to insects but no forex and reduced transport dependency, good for the local economy, sustainable, etc etc.

    The real problem is that it is different. Malawi is not Sudan where starvation is common, but there are seasons every year when most people in her region are hungry. Taking a risk with the corn crop is not done lightly when you have a proven method and you have less than $1/day to feed your family of usually more than 4. She'll keep trying with demonstration patches etc, but it only works when the locals take up ownership of the result. It ain't easy being green when the short term consequence is so stark. Of course the long term consequences for non-sustainability are pretty rough, too.

    Hat's off to the volunteers trying to make it happen and the Malawians brave enough to try.

  40. Stop screwing around with africa by 1s44c · · Score: 1

    Ship them a thousand copies of every farming related book and leave them to get on with it. The west has been screwing around in Africa for a very long time and not much has come of it, they need to do this for themselves so they really know how to do it.

  41. Death Trap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's two types of countries in Africa. Thos that fell into the fertilizer death trap and those that improved the education of their farmers.Guess who won't have massive starvation once the fertilzier or money supply is cut for geopolitical reasons.It is a death trap and a proxy weapon to get a country to adopt fertilizer they have to import. The horror will be significant..

  42. TV by Krneki · · Score: 1
    Give them free TV with cable access.

    So they will watch TV instead to make more babies. If you give them only food, the population will boom and you will have the same problem.

    --
    Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    1. Re:TV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Weirdly this actually happened in rural India (and for once the theory was testable due to the piecemeal way in which TV was rolled out across different villages). Not necessarily that they were watching TV instead of making babies, but women became more empowered to insist on contraceptive through seeing strong female role models on TV rather then feeling they were second class citizens with no say in the matter.

  43. greenhouses by SergeyKurdakov · · Score: 1

    greenhouses produce 6+ times compared to out of doors cultivation. Africa has suitable climate for greenhouses ( see Israel greenhouse projects ), then using hydroponics, there is no need in rich soils. of cause there is question of money - there is need in quite a bit of them to start. But this is another question. Africa can produce enough crops, and 'poor' soils do not prevent Israeli deserts to produce a lot of food.

  44. The problem is shit by rdebath · · Score: 1

    It's not talked about much, but one of the things that helps reduce the price of fertiliser is treated sewage. So it basically sets up a cycle with what's taken out of the land for food being "given back". This frequently works as a double loop with crops grown with Human sewage used to feed cattle and bullshit used to feed the crops for people as this is generally "less yukky" and normally safer because diseases don't switch between species much.

    In Africa (in general) this cycle doesn't exist, the sanitation is often poor and the sewage treatment worse. Even when sanitation does exist many people seem to prefer a quiet spot in the bushes. Without the cycle fertiliser is expensive without fertiliser you will only get a couple of crops from a piece of land before you drain it of nutrients.

    This is a basic rule of farming, another way of doing the same thing is crop rotation now this works on a much more local scale which keeps big business out of the equation but but will probably work best if the soil recovery is aided by a contract with the local 'nightsoil collector.'

  45. media don't care about reality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Charities have been putting out ads about starving Africa for the last 40+ years, and the population has more than doubled in that time. My sympathy is now gone, but the charities and media don't care, and they run the show. My (and your) opinion is irrelevant.

  46. For Mozambique ... by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's time to change your government

    Mozambique should not be a poor country - look at the resources your country has

    Mozambique is poor because of the mismanagement of the government

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:For Mozambique ... by Dodgy+G33za · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mozambique IS because of the great powers that carved up Africa at the end of the nineteenth century chose it to be.

      African countries have at least three problems, two of them internal and one external. The internal problems are that they were given (or in some cases took independence) without any significant attempts to create an educated elite, and that their boundaries are not based on culture. For examples of the latter, look at Nigeria with its Christian coastal dwellers and Islamic folk inland, or the current problems in Mali with the Toureg in the north fighting for independence. Also note how Sudan and Ethiopia have both had civil war and been split in the last decade or so, both along religious or ethic lines.

      The external problem is that both political and commerical interests benefit from African states being badly run. There was much jostling over the African states during the cold war, and it is much easier to deal with a dictator or bribe a government when you are after the many resources Africa has to offer rather than have to deal with the vagaries of public opinion.

      And let's not forget that some of these nations have had independence for less than 50 years (1974 in the case of Mozambique).

      Anyone interested in reading up on the carving up of Africa might want to take a look at Thomas Pakenham - The Scramble for Africa.

    2. Re:For Mozambique ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have no idea what you are talking about... Portuguese were in Mozambique starting 1500 not nineteenth century. And Mozambique had their independence on 25th of June 1975.

    3. Re:For Mozambique ... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      I wonder if rigid geographic boundaries are even appropriate for African governance. They certainly weren't for native Americans.

    4. Re:For Mozambique ... by alaffin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While Western Imperialism did not help Mozambique in any way, to say that the poverty of African nations is a result of Imperialism is misguided. Ethiopia is a good example of this. It was only recently (the mid-20th century) and very briefly (1936-1944) brought under the control of a proper empire. For most of the rest of its history is has been a monarchy and has always had the potential to be fairly affluent - the soils there are quite fertile compared to neighbouring nations and the nation sits high above much of the rest of Africa making it the source for a dozen or so major rivers. However the nation is a poorly organized communist society - so very little of its fertile land is irrigated by its vast water reserves and it is usually one drought away from disaster.

      Are there things we could do to make things easier for Ethiopia? Sure. Because of her robust economies anything the west does has significant effects on the rest of the world. However there are many contributing factors to the poor economies of Africa, many of which have more to do with the people and the governments of these nations than anything the western world has done. Compare Ethiopia and Mozambique to Botswana, which gained independence in 1966 and was, at the time, the poorest country in Africa. Now it has a robust economy and the 2nd highest GDP per capita in sub-Saharan Africa (after Seychelles).

    5. Re:For Mozambique ... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      For examples of the latter, look at Nigeria with its Christian coastal dwellers and Islamic folk inland

      Another example might be the USA, with Protestants of a hundred variaties, Catholics, Mormons, Eastern Orthodox, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Animists, Confucianists, Athiests, every kind of -ist you can imagine.

      Oh, wait....

      Note, by the way, that you just argued that the Europeans who are worried about Muslim influx into Europe are right to worry, since it will bring down their civilization.

      On the other hand, the USA seems to suggest that it IS possible for people of different ethnicities and religions to get along well enough to prosper....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    6. Re:For Mozambique ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yay, someone finally mentioned The Scramble for Africa :-)

      Another thing worth reading is: How Europe Underdeveloped Africa by Walter Rodney

      As a South African I feel that until this continent stops exporting raw materials as it has done since the colonial era and starts industrialising and producing real outputs it will continue to exist in an economically impoverished state that will ultimately lead to a lot of pain and suffering for everyone

    7. Re:For Mozambique ... by BOUND4DOOM · · Score: 1

      Sound more like the problem is religion. Perhaps they should embrace the Flying Spaghetti Monster and he will provide for all.

    8. Re:For Mozambique ... by Richy_T · · Score: 2

      What about the gluten intolerant?

    9. Re:For Mozambique ... by Kelbear · · Score: 2

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_resources_curse

      On a related note, one of the problems plaguing the the poorer parts of the continent is rampant corruption. Efforts to improve conditions are sabotaged by corruption and greed. You can't feed the starving if the food is just being taken by the government and sold off for profit, or if warlords roll in and take the food from the mouth of the starving. You can't even build businesses without rule of law. You need order. But you can't have order if you have incompetent and powerless governance, and where can you get competent administrators and staff if the country is poor and lacking in education? The problems plaguing the poor parts of Africa overlap each other, and efforts to improve one area are hamstrung without matching improvements in another area.

      There is easy access to wealth in the exploitation of natural resources there, and industrialized nation provide ravenous demand. The "blessing" of natural resources becomes a curse since creates conditions that tempt those in power away from pushing for fundamental growth. It's much easier to get rich by just selling resources and property than to build a comparatively high-risk, low-margin, business. So instead greed wins out, and those who would try to make Africa better off are swarmed under by corruption all around them.

    10. Re:For Mozambique ... by stdarg · · Score: 2

      the nation sits high above much of the rest of Africa making it the source for a dozen or so major rivers. However the nation is a poorly organized communist society - so very little of its fertile land is irrigated by its vast water reserves and it is usually one drought away from disaster.

      It's not that simple. For instance:

      Nine nations lay claim to the water, but two existing agreements had given the lion’s share to arid Egypt and Sudan.

      Under the current agreement, brokered by the British in 1929, Egypt gets 87% of the river’s water and veto power over upstream water projects. A 1959 agreement gave Sudan secondary rights to the water.

      Ethiopia hasn't been *allowed* to develop its water sources for economic gain. Egypt has in the past threatened to go to war with Ethiopia if it interferes with the Nile.

    11. Re:For Mozambique ... by alaffin · · Score: 1

      (a) That's a single river (well, many rivers really, but certainly not all of the water in Ethiopia). Why hold back on the development of other rivers? For that matter why kowtow to a distant nation? Why not try to secure international backing for your claims (as International Law clearly states that riparian nations are required to share waters in a fair and equitable manner)? There are lots of other options,
      (b) If it is Egypt (admittedly working through a dated treaty put in place by a European nation) that is forcing Ethiopia's hand, it is hardly the Empire building of European nations that is holding Ethiopia back.

    12. Re:For Mozambique ... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Yeah it's a single river, but it's the biggest river and has a tremendous drainage basin. All of the water in the drainage basin is subject to the water sharing rights. Same thing happens in the US: http://www.rainwatercollecting.com/blog/2009/01/is-rainwater-collecting-really-illegal-in-some-states/

      I agree that it's absolutely crazy, but the reason they do it is that Egypt has a huge military funded by the US. They would pretty much wipe out Ethiopia. It's not fair, and of course Ethiopia argues that it's not fair, and there is a process to change the water sharing status quo. Of course, imported water is crucial for Egypt since they are much more arid than Ethiopia.. on the other hand, it's just not fair. It doesn't help that Egypt is Muslim and Ethiopia is Christian.

    13. Re:For Mozambique ... by readin · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, the USA seems to suggest that it IS possible for people of different ethnicities and religions to get along well enough to prosper....

      A key strength of America is that rather than believing that all religions are equal, we believe that religion cannot be compelled (and by extension that a compelled religion is invalid).

      Thus we don't ask people to give up their religion (by making them pretend that other religions are equal - if you believe all religions are equal than you don't really believe in your own). We respect religious beliefs even when (or especially when) those believers say they have the one and only Truth. In doing so we truly respect the religion rather than paying lip service or condescendingly humoring the believers.

      On the other hand, we don't compel people to adopt a religion (we believe conversion by sword would just result in fake conversions) nor do we allow compulsion.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    14. Re:For Mozambique ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ethiopia is heavily landlocked, which is a major economic barrier. It's not like Switzerland or Austria, which are tiny and wedged in-between three economic powerhouses, it's a country bigger than France, Germany, and Italy put together, landlocked and surrounded by countries in crippling poverty.

  47. Guns and Contraceptive Pills by Leo+Sasquatch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Take the guns away from the men and give the pills to the women. Accept the fact that it's going to take a couple of generations to stabilise, and there is no quick fix. In many places, the problems seem to be not poor soil, or lack of rain, but the fact that around harvest time, some asswipe rolls up in a jeep with a bunch of his buttboys and helps himself to whatever he fancies.

    Accept the ugly truth that inter-uterine and infant malnutrition can directly and permanently affect brain growth. Unlike many other parts of the body, which seem able to recover, if sufficient food is presented later, the brain doesn't seem to recover. Entire areas have been hit by famine, whether caused by weather conditions or the janjaweed militia, and the damage is clear and permanent, and won't go away overnight no matter how much food you ship in.

    With no appropriate infrastructure, a lot of aid ends up wasted, damaged, or just diverted to whichever local asswipe has the most guns. Aid needs to be specific. I saw a TED talk on the amazing water-purifier bottle - he scooped up some filthy muck, gave it a couple of pumps, and out came pure water. A truckload of those in the right place would probably do some good. I also remember hearing about a village where the thing that made the most difference to their food supply was teaching the local craftsman to make catapults. The local monkeys would help themselves to the crops and they lost around 30% of their crop each year. They gave the local boys catapults, so they could hit the monkeys with stones without getting too close. The problem cleared right up, as the monkeys learned that going anywhere near the fields got them nothing but a sharp stone at high speed.

    The problems are not insurmountable, but they are huge in scope. Getting people to give a shit for extended periods of time might be the largest challenge of all.

    1. Re:Guns and Contraceptive Pills by Nimey · · Score: 0

      Wait, you mean that the libertarian paradise where there are plenty of guns and no government to tell you what to do doesn't work?

      Unpossible!

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    2. Re:Guns and Contraceptive Pills by retroworks · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Give guns to the women, condoms to the men. That's how we tamed the wild west in the USA. It was ugly for awhile, and we still have some gun culture because of it. But as guns became small enough for women to carry and hide, men had to factor in that she might be packing heat, and thought twice. Handgun distribution to mothers in Uganda might do more to stop Kony than anything else. And the pill does nothing for AIDS, cheap condoms are better. (No, I'm not a troll).

      --
      Gently reply
    3. Re:Guns and Contraceptive Pills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take the guns away from the men and give the pills to the women. Accept the fact that it's going to take a couple of generations to stabilise, and there is no quick fix. In many places, the problems seem to be not poor soil, or lack of rain, but the fact that around harvest time, some asswipe rolls up in a jeep with a bunch of his buttboys and helps himself to whatever he fancies.

      Sure, there are some African countries (of the 50+) that are on long (civil) wars, but it doesn't mean that all of Africa is a warlord run war zone. Also, while I am sure population will have its effect, I sure also want to check the populations of the so-called BRIC States. They may not be as rich as the west, but, hey, they have at least been given a "group name". In my mind, populations is not the biggest issue.

      Accept the ugly truth that inter-uterine and infant malnutrition can directly and permanently affect brain growth

      Are you implying that Africans are hence a bunch of morons, with no intelligence? If I have to call any one "moron", it will be the entertain-me fat generation of the west. There are many African intellectuals, a good proportion of whom are also making it elsewhere in the world. Go to your government's immigration office and ask them who some of the top earners are (sure, there are more at the bottom, too) but my point is their ability to compete with you, my well-fed slashdoter. But, in their countries, their governments ears are plugged with the ear-phones of their direct link to America & Europe. :)

      While there are many other problems with The Africans themselves and their geography, let's not forget the west's role, too. Do you know how many leaders the West ousted just because they were deemed unfavourable? I would mention only two names, Nkrumah & Lumumba and leave the rest for you to google. Whereas, if someone is a dictator on its people, but still a nice puppet, no one would touch them. (when you think of it, how can someone so unpopular as some of the African leaders stay in power unless they have a strong help form somewhere else?) Why does the expulsion of white farmers have to be the evidence for Mugabe's dictatorship, or oil problems the sign of Ghadafi's ...? BTW, knowing in how many of decisions of my country the west interferes, I have no problem believing "The Econimic Hit Man".

      Even countries that are hit by drought repeatedly can feed themselves. One of the biggest problems, IMHO, is infrastructure. Why does food have to be shipped all the way to Africa while it can be bought from a nearby area (sometimes a different region of the same country) for a fraction of the cost and transported cheaply? Or, even better, why don't the west give them the infrastructure? Are you creating a market for the American farmer or helping the Africans?

      There's a lot that can be said, but I think I have made my point clear.

  48. Phospahte by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where do they get the excess Potash to make the areas (60% or of subsaharan) viable, higher yielding-- it ain't cheap you realize. So Liebig's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebig's_law_of_the_minimum

  49. Reboot the universe by atari2600a · · Score: 1

    Let's start out by making transportation non-retarded Survey all wasetwater plants for possible fuel sources, & take advantage of what shi tyou already have lying around like WVO. Then, once that shit is monetized you bring in the raw materiol needed to aerate the land while the farmers do their shit like that I'm sorry I'm on ambien right now & I was just about to go to sleep bye

  50. From Rwanda and Ghana by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The assumptions in the summary are wrong in general, you must live here before coming up with solutions to problems you don't understand except by watching documentaries .. some photos from rwanda and ghana to give you an idea what it is like

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150555032114134.428576.665564133&type=3&l=45fe9c1d8d

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150615484079134.438141.665564133&type=1&l=a6ab9d3a8e

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150490910759134.419413.665564133&type=3&l=7809a12c56

  51. Let Africans decide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The entire tone seems pretty darn paternal. And ignorant. Maybe even a little racist. Africa is a lot of different nations and tribes and climates and such. We shouldn't tell them what to do, nor should we make some blanket statements about all of Africa. They can determine their own future.

    1. Re:Let Africans decide by goodmanj · · Score: 1

      Yes. With a caveat: that doesn't mean we should stand aside entirely. We should use our wealth to help implement their decisions, but we can't decide for them.

    2. Re:Let Africans decide by White+Flame · · Score: 1

      We should use our wealth to help implement their decisions

      Why? There are billions of problems in this world, with the African soil situation being but one. What is it about this particular problem, one which the rest of the world has attempted and failed at over many years, that demands continual involvement?

  52. Condoms = Hell !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with Condoms is unfortunately Catholicism . . . maybe it should be ban Catholicism.

    Sorry no condom for you, go straight to hell . . .

    Wait , , , 15 children starved to death and aids epidemics . . . they are in hell already.

  53. Profound waste of time and money. by pbscoop · · Score: 2

    If you give them more food, they'll make even more babies who will grow to adulthood, who will then in turn need more food and on and on. This is the eternal fate of Africa.

  54. Listen to the world bank by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Despite a gobal slowdown Africa saw robust growth in 2011. Prospects remain strong but elevated downside risks in the global economy could dampen the regions economic momentum.

    http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/AFRICAEXT/0,,contentMDK:23004589~pagePK:146736~piPK:226340~theSitePK:258644,00.html

  55. Stop exploiting them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We all know that Africa is controlled and exploited by industry and governments of the 1st world. We take their resources and give nothing back except the toxic waste. We flood their markets with low quality, cheap subsidised import food (EU meat for example), killing local markets, increasing poverty. At the same time we force them to grow cheap food for the first world (peanuts for instance), instead of growing food for themselves. If world market prices for these crops dive, their income drops, we don't care. We take their water and sell it to their rich population, leaving the poor with dirty water. We make them believe they need to buy our seeds and fertilizer and unlearn how traditional farming works. We enforce patents on medication even in Africa, so we can extort money from a few rich. We deliver boat loads of waste and garbage to Africa.

    1. Re:Stop exploiting them by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourselves on the toxic waste subject: Europeans are not allowed to export toxic waste out of Europe.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  56. Solution? Tacocopter! by Sooner+Boomer · · Score: 2

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=19748145&nid=1014&title=tacocopter-would-deliver-tacos-via-unmanned-drone&s_cid=featured-4

    The ability to have tacos delivered at their feet is an idea many people wouldn't hesitate to get behind - especially when the tacos are being delivered by a robot. The Tacocopter - an unmanned drone helicopter that gives customers tacos on demand - would without a doubt be wildly popular were it to exist throughout the world. All you need is the GPS location and hot sauce!.

    --
    Chaos maximizes locally around me.
  57. Response from epSos.de by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Africa is so diverse that you can not condemn all of it as infertile and backward. They have nice places too. Just like any other continent.

    I would suggest that you look for examples in other arid areas like South Africa, Spain, Israel, Australia, China, Mexico, USA or Kazakhstan even.

  58. Permaculturalists are already there doing this by KaiLoi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I must admit that I'm surprised that in nearly 200 comments there have only been a couple of mentions of Permaculture. I would have expected that the highly systematic and evidence based approach to sustainable high yield food cropping would have been right up the slashdot crowds alley.

    They are already turning this kind of environment into productive landscape in even harsher climates than Africa (the very salty depleted areas of low lying jordan for example) Look on youtube for "greening the desert" (over view here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sohI6vnWZmk).

    Permaculture (while it has it's hippy adherents) is moslty based in very well understood horticultural and scientific processes for repairing damaged landscapes in a rapid and sustainable way using pioneer species that not only stabalise the environment but enhance it. (Natural Nitrogen fixing precursor species) alongside cheap human manageable earthworks and seed planting techniques.

    I highly recommend any geek interested in ecological revitalization read up on and get into permaculture.

    1. Re:Permaculturalists are already there doing this by AttillaTheNun · · Score: 1

      Agreed, Google the following pioneers in this field and how they are promoting SUSTAINABLE agriculture Bill Mollison Geoff Lawton David Holmgren Sepp Holzer Masanobu Fukuoka

  59. How to feed Africa ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Give them contraception, change the culture there , and forbid the pope and otehr religious leader to say outright lie on contraception. Once the population level drop down, feeding will be self evident, self sufficient.

  60. The Solution: U Haul by SkydiverFL · · Score: 1

    Years ago I rented a property and the well dried up. Rather than reach out to the government for assistance, we did something amazing: WE MOVED!

    Rather than continuing to throw more good money in after bad, spend the money on a few U Haul trucks. Since we're already shoving our beliefs down their throats, scoop these people up and transplant them somewhere where the land CAN thrive. Anyone who refuses to move as sealed their fate.

    1. Re:The Solution: U Haul by goodmanj · · Score: 1

      Every place on Earth with the capacity to hold more people is already up to its ass in people who really don't want new neighbors. US immigration law is a pretty good example of this.

      And even if you could knock down barriers to immigration, it's not enough to move someone from point A to point B: they need a home when they get there. If you build 'em something cheap on land nobody's using, you get a refugee camp or ghetto society. If you integrate them into the culture of the new place, you gotta pay for prime real estate. The cost will be many $trillion.

      "Just move" works for individuals, but it doesn't scale up to billions very easily.

    2. Re:The Solution: U Haul by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 2

      Your advise seems to result in "Abuse the land as much as you can untill you can't abuse it anymore. Then move". Not my favorite method.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  61. give them money to have less kids. by brezel · · Score: 1

    any other solution will just cause more suffering.

  62. The Condom by funkboy · · Score: 1

    The one change that would make the single largest improvement to the issues Africa is facing would be that all religions, politicians, etc. EMBRACE the condom. Not just tolerate it, but actively promote it.

    It would ease overpopulation, reduce the spread of AIDS, decrease the number of single mothers, orphans, and abortions, etc. etc. etc.

  63. Imperialist, racist question by goodmanj · · Score: 1

    This whole thread is up to its ass in imperialist, racist white privilege. You are not some great white savior, who with his superior intellect knows what's best for all the poor dark races of the world. (And if you're one of the 2% of Slashdot readers who's not a white male, my point still holds.)

    No matter how much you've read about Africa, you don't have the expertise to decide for them that one form of fertilizer is better than another. You don't get to decide whether they'd be better off being "exploited" by big business or left to fend for themselves. You don't get to decide whether food security is more or less urgent than contraception.

    That's not to say that you should do nothing, though. Your wealth grants you educational advantages: you can provide information. Tell folks in Africa what their options are, brainstorm new ideas (like this one). Your wealth grants you logistical advantages: you can help to implement the solutions they decide they like.

    But they decide, not you.

    1. Re:Imperialist, racist question by TFAFalcon · · Score: 2

      Well said.

      But I would like to add something. Once they decide on a course of action, and you foot the bill for it, they should stick to it. If the leader spends the money for personal gain, STOP helping them. Wait until the leadership is replaced then try again. Don't give the people food in the mean time. That just ensures there is never enough outrage to start a full blown revolution.

    2. Re:Imperialist, racist question by CycleMan · · Score: 1

      But they decide, not you.

      That is, I think, one of the most important statements in this thread. And the current Western aid process mostly does not let them decide. It is shipped from governments to governments, and the 0.1% use that free aid to feed and arm themselves and their cronies, while pushing down the 99.9% in ways that would make Occupy Wall Street absolutely shiver. If you want to talk about imperialist privilege, talk about the existing aid programs which view themselves as great saviors, and kill a bunch of them off so that a few well-connected corrupt people [Mugabe, for example] lose the resources and power that they currently use to smack down everyone else in their countries.

  64. This is how you sound: by louzer · · Score: 1

    Therefore we, who are the protectors of the human race, are agreed, as we view the situation, that decisive legislation is necessary, so that the long-hoped-for solutions which mankind itself could not provide may, by the remedies provided by our foresight, be vouchsafed for the general betterment of all.

    It sounds like arrogance and condescension.

    --
    Heroes die once, cowards live longer.
  65. McDonalds! (Seriously!) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    McDonalds Franchises. Noone wants to eat the shizzel over here.. send it somewhere else where the food quality isn't such an issue (.. or is that considered inhumane?).

  66. Permaculture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Africa (and the rest of the world too) need to turn to permaculture.
    We need to observe ecological systems, and figure out how we can design simmilar eco-systems that are more suitable for our needs.
    Such tailored systems can provide enormeous yields compared to industrial agriculture.

    This is our only hope, if we are to survive the comming decades.
    Peak-oil is allready upon us, and it will be a bumpy ride from here.

  67. First of all: stop subsidizing food exports by Lazy+Jones · · Score: 1

    EU subsidies deny Africa's farmers of their livelihood. This has to stop NOW, Africa has enough potential for food production and doesn't need our junk subsidized by EU taxpayers. If we cared about them, we'd invest that money in African companies so they can get off the ground faster, but what we do is exactly the opposite. The EU agricultural policy is borderline criminal in many aspects.

    --
    "I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
    1. Re:First of all: stop subsidizing food exports by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Spoken like a spoiled first worlder.

      If it's so bad, why does Africa accept them?

      Maybe it's more complex then you think.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  68. Feed Africa? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't unless you put down Wall Street.
    Food is an asset! It's that simple!

    This question is the same as: How to defend Africa against the Empire?

    Again, you can't especially as Africa is the next longterm target for the Empire. China and those traitors at NATO are pushing more and more to steal Africa's resources.

  69. Hemp + Pyrolization + Terra Preta + Manure by quarkscat · · Score: 1

    There are solutions, just not "legal" ones thanks to governments controlled by multinational corporations and corrupt international bankers.

    HEMP || Use hemp (Cannabis sativa variety) to replace wood for cooking. Cannabis can grow in poor soil. Hemp seeds are highly nutritious (double entendre intended). One hectare of hemp (grown for fiber) can replace more that 4 hectares of forests, and can also be used to make building construction materials.

    PYROLIZATION || Easily constructed ovens can be used to pyrolyze hemp fiber into flammable cooking gas, and to create bio-char.

    TERRA PRETA || This is a farming technique that uses bio-char to enrich soil. It provides an "anchor" for healthy micro-biotics to convert natural fertilizers into plant-ready usable nutrients. The fertilizers feed the micro-biotic organisms, and these organisms feed the cultivated plants. Over time, the percentage of carbon in the soil actually increases, due to the life cycle of those useful micro-biotic organisms.

    MANURE || Properly treated manure (mulching) can be safely used to help enrich that terra preta treated soil.

    Most areas of Africa have the ability to feed themselves, if only governments and greedy multinational corporations get out of the way, including such evil corporations as Monsanto. GMO seeds are, by definition, unsustainable, as well as dangerous to other living organisms in the food chain, especially humans. Sequestration of carbon (credits) through the use of terra preta farming techniques could provide the seed money for the micro-finance of sustainable agriculture at the village level. There is no good reason why solar power / photovoltaics cannot be employed with dramatically good results to operate pumps for wells for irrigation and drinking water, as well as purifying that water for drinking. Good solutions are available to improve the lives of millions of people, instead of using them as lab rats for eugenics-inspired Big Pharma medicines, vaccines, etcetera.

    1. Re:Hemp + Pyrolization + Terra Preta + Manure by dbreeze · · Score: 1

      Someone mod parent up! I missed his post on my first pass. I've got my own take here: http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2753171&cid=39669079

      --
      When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law he tore his robes.2Kings22:11
  70. Plenty of sustainability to be had by Khyber · · Score: 1

    Go NFT/vertical farming, use SEA-90 and some minor chemical supplementation of nitrogen, and teach the people how to operate the system.

    Disclaimer: I design these kinds of systems - here's one of them featured on BBC's CountryFile.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  71. Two Words: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Soylent Green

  72. One Acre Fund by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Teaches them how to properly grow and sell their crops instead of simply giving them everything.

  73. Energy is THE KEY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Until energy crisis has been resolved there can be no solution to poverty or hunger problems.
    If you subsidize fertilizers and peak oil comes on board, subsidies WILL vanish.
    If you build sustainable farms and peak oil comes, you will have to resort to manual labor which means subsistence farming for all, YAY!

  74. Zimbawee? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe if Zimbabwe wouldn't have killed and drove the white farmers away, food wouldn't be quite so scarce in Africa.

  75. How to Fee Africa? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    By stopping the wholesale carving up the the country by foreign corporations who see a resource (for example a lake fill with fish or farm-able land), simply take it (preventing all the resident Africans from using it), hire a few residents at minimum wage and start depleting that resource and shipping huge amounts of food oversees and they watch the residence population starve to death.

    Even the countries in Africa where it is worse then average, even when they are going through deathly famines, are shipping millions of pounds of food overseas so you can buy it in your local food mart.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  76. Square Foot Gardening by ipoverscsi · · Score: 1

    Square foot gardening might be a viable option.

    http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

    It turns out that the instructions on most seed packets are designed for planting in rows suitable for mechanical processing. The seeds can be planted much more closely together when a human hand is doing the tending. And, when you plant closely together there is little room for weeds, so weeding is a once-a-month activity.

    You can make a raised bed planter 4' by 4' in size and only 7" deep, fill it with a mixture of 1/3 compost (manure), 1/3 peat moss and 1/3 vermiculite and you have a planter that is capable of feeding one person for an entire growing season. Once the mixture has been made, you only need to occasionally add compost and the mixture is good for five years.

    Mel Bartholomew, the inventor of Square Foot Gardening, is a process engineer, and he has spent the last 20 years optimizing the heck out of this growing method. He's traveled the world working with organizations and governments to help people grown their own food.

  77. Pink Slime by Centurix · · Score: 1

    There'll be a stock pile of it soon. Send it over.

    --
    Task Mangler
  78. Green Revolution worked for India by tomhath · · Score: 1

    The question is simple: does Africa follow the same, unsustainable road as the rest of the world?

    There is absolutely no basis for suggesting modern agriculture is unsustainable. Crop yields in the USA are at record highs and continue to climb. No till farming conserves moisture and builds organic matter in the soil. Most of what is advertised as "sustainable farming" has no scientific basis.

    1. Re:Green Revolution worked for India by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a lot fo truth to that. I mena, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of problems with modern agriculture, like how irrigation can slowly but surely cause salinizatiopn of the soil, requiring more and more salt tollerant crops until the only thing they can grow in a new housing development, or the rate we're going through phosphorus reserves, however, these are problems that can be solved within the cotnext of our modern agricultural systems, and a lot of times when you hear the word 'sustainable' thrown about it is mostly marketing.

    2. Re:Green Revolution worked for India by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      Yes, the Green Revolution in India is an excellent case study on this problem.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
  79. Dear world... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Surprisingly the areas where humanity have been the longest have been farmed to oblivion.

    So why are we trying to turn the large expanses of aird semi-desert into farmland? How about getting them to stop living in the bad areas and have them move to the good areas to start with?

    Honestly, this is like trying to start a rice farm in the middle of the Sahara desert. it's just stupid to even try it there. Step 1 is to identify the areas where it's possible, step 2 is to use sustainable processes like crop rotation, irrigation, and fertilizer (cow poo is sustainable) to make the marginal areas farm-able.

    This is not rocket science. any homesteading book from the 1800's will have every bit of information needed to do what is needed in africa with some tweaks.

    I dont think it's the farming problem causing the food shortages, let's start with the scumbag leaders of most of the countries and the rampant militias and gangs.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  80. The problem is not food supply by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Its getting the food to the people that need it. A small part of that is logistics, but the biggest part is the various governments ( mostly local ) that get in the way.

    Lots and lots of food goes to waste every year that never made it to the person that was hungry.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  81. Methane by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Methane, natural gas, and liquified natural gas all are very abundant to the point of annoyance. They can readily be used to create mass quantities of fertilizers. Furthermore their use reduces their 25x impact on global warming gasses as compared to CO2. Let me be clear I am not a global warming nut, but I do know that methane concentrations on the north coast of Russia are producing a likely self feeding pattern of ice melt. I suspect that favors future Russian economic development, but it also is a "pollutant". Gas is also customarily burned off on oil rigs rather than being collected and picked up "free" by low cost ships or trucks. The coastal Russian methane concentration can be seen on the Wikipedia page for atmospheric methane.

    JJ

  82. It's not a production problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's one of distribution. Even if they have to resort to imports to fill their food needs, the bigger problem is that the violence and genocide that plagues much of the continent makes security a real problem.

    By the way, hardcore libertarians take note: Africa is a perfect example of why a "governmentless orderly anarchy" can never exist. The inevitable outcome of that is tribalism, as we've seen time and again. Without a central authority, the cartels take over and extort the hell out of everyone else and there is no recourse except to respond in kind. This can quickly turn into a giant civil war, and this is not the kind of society any sane person would want to live in.

  83. what? by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    Why is fertilizer an "unsustainable farming method"?

  84. Permaculture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The following people are already demonstrating it is possible to reverse desertification using sustainable methods that will not further degrade the soil, but improve it short and long-term:
    Bill Mollison
    Geoff Lawton
    David Holmgren
    Sepp Holzer

    There are many others along this chain, but these are the "big four" in my book. Google any of them for a good start.

  85. In the long Run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We are going to have to stop the war against birth control. George W. Bush's and the Republican stance for abstinence only politics was exported to Africa and did real damage.

    It is a very simple fact that if Africa had fewer people it would have fewer problems.

    Oprah's school for young girls is a huge step in this direction. Studies clearly show that the more educated the woman the smaller the family size.

  86. fertilers - more food, not healty food by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We love our fertilizers and pesticides, not to mention growth hormones. They make apples grow big and red, give our chickens lots of white breast meat, and over all look at how much more food we get out of a crop.

    Unfortunately, the food does not contain the same nutrients as it once used to. To get the nutrients we need on a daily basis, we have to eat much more food - many more calories. This has assisted in creating the North American obesity problem.

    There are lots of published studies showing just this, a few listed here.
    - Journal of Complimentary Medicine, 2001 - decline in trace minerals of up to 76%
    - News Canada, 2003 - potatoes lost 100 % of their vitamin A content, 57% of their vitamin C and iron, and 28% of their calcium.
    - Journal of the American College of Nutrition, 2004 - declines were observed in protein, calcium, phosphorous, iron, riboflavin and ascorbic acid
    - Food Magazine - milk's iron content had fallen 62%, magnesium down 21%, copper disappeared completely

    So where did the nutrients go? Our farming practices are one part of it. There are lots of the nutrients in the soil that we grow our food in, however, the plants cannot absorb them in the naturally occuring state. They need to be broken down by micro organisms in the soil, or at least the ones there before we killed them off with our pesticides. So the plants are not as healthy, because they are not getting the nutrients they need. The farm animals are not healthy becasue they are not getting their nutrients. We are not healthy because we are not getting the nutrients we need from our food.

    Organic farming, gets back to having healthy soil for the plants. The micro organisms are there to break down the minerals. The plants get the nutrients from the ground. The farm animals get the nutrients from the feed. We get our nutrients from the food. And we do not need to eat as much to ge the nutrients - so the cost per nutrient is actually lower, even if the organic bananna is more expensive.

    Now in Africa, Asia, and the rest of the world, we are helping them to follow in the route we have taken. Heling them to speed grow lots of calories with little nutrition. Instead of a billion malnourished people in Africa that need to be fed, we will help them create a population of malnourished overweight people. Just like us.

    The solution is to help them get good nutrition. As someone else suggested, move the sand/clay/organic sludge around, to great good soil. Let the organisms flourish, so what does grow in the soil is healthy. As the plants die at the end of a season, the stalks, leaves, and whatever else we do not eat, can return to the soil and feed the micro organisms. That cycle will improve the quality of the soil for the next season, and so on.

    However, out chemical companies - the ones that make their money selling pesticides, fertilizers, and hormones will step in and do their best to not lose all the potential revenues. Just think of how much they have to lose with a billion people needing pesticides and fertilizers for their food, and then vitamin supplements and medicine to keep them healthy, because the food is not nutritious.

    I hate to be pessimistic, but I forsee profits for big corporations before healthy food any day of the week.

  87. Simplest Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Less people around, less people to feed. This solution is already happening naturally. Less resources, more conflict. More conflict, more dead people. Less people.

    1. Re:Simplest Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i don't really know why you'd want to help people grow more food. That will only lead to a larger sustainable population and more problems down the road. Not to mention exacerbating the threat to the local endangered wildlife from human encroachment and poaching.

  88. More ECO-Nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Africa has vast amounts of quality farmland. I know I have seen it over 35 years. As usual the problem is Governments, particularly the US governments, the UN and NGOs who have conspired to destroy farming, support corrupt undemocratic dictators eg Dr Kaunda and create dependency on outside aid where none was needed or existed. At the same time the leaderships send billions to Zurich.

    De colonialization was and is a disaster caused by Lefty do-gooders. When will these idiots realize that their model of Democracy does not transplant to the Arab or African world, and its hols is tenuous even where it is strongest.

    Only China, which regularly punishes corruption, and gives the the finger to the UN and its NGOs seems to ba able to get things done in Africa and they are re-collonizing it which is exactly what is needed.

    MFG, omb

  89. BULL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Africa is full of life. It is still very much the untamed world.

    African can feed itself if they use their heads and stop having children they can't feed, and learn to engineer solutions instead of walking miles on end to get a bucket of water. DUH!

    Start realizing that AIDS is spread by sex, not some magical way.

  90. You will never fix Africa by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    Several reasons. 1. They live in a DESERT. Kind of hard to grow food in sand. 2. They are mostly uneducated. 3. Too many "kingdoms" and warlords 4. They've lived that way pretty much since the world was created. Until you change #1 & #2, nothing will change.

    1. Re:You will never fix Africa by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Can you be more stupid? Africa is a big place and it's not all desert.

      Why don't [people get that? IT's like looking at Alaska and saying America is too frozen to grow wheat.

      It works like this:
      Water
      food
      shelter
      safety.
      When you have that down to the point where you have some free time then:

      Education

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  91. "has worked" and "will work" by aclarke · · Score: 1

    So-called "sustainable" approaches are called that exactly because the current large-scale farming system is viewed by many to be unsustainable. For instance, if you look at the topsoil depth of the American midwest over time, you'll see that it's growing shallower and shallower. If nothing changes, this land will eventually become unfarmable. This type of farming is borrowing against the future to pay the present.

    You can copy what "has worked", but there's a significant amount of evidence to show that it won't work long term and will be detrimental to long term productivity. Perhaps unsustainable techniques are the short term answer to kick start production, but then you have the problem that it will stay in place far longer than it should because nobody has the motivation to make difficult changes. This is an opportunity for governments, scientists and farmers to locally take control of their own destiny and learn from the mistakes of others. It's also an opportunity to avoid ceding yet another local resource to a powerful multinational.

    1. Re:"has worked" and "will work" by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      Great! We'll all starve together then.

      People are starving now. And every time you say "starving", you're actually saying "starving to death". Anyone you don't stop from starving will be dead long before they would have cared about whether what they did to not starve is sustainable. GM crops that they'll eventually be sued over? Do they feed more people than regular crops? Great! What the fuck ever, plant that shit! Africans have shown they love a little war. What could be better? You get to stop starving, and then you get to keep your warlords employed shooting people who are trying to sue you back into starvation instead of shooting their own countrymen!

      And hey, since what we're currently doing is unsustainable, don't you think it's just a little hypocritical to ask a bunch of people who are starving to death to be fucking carbon-neutral for the good of the planet (i.e. us)?

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    2. Re:"has worked" and "will work" by aclarke · · Score: 1

      Did you read my post? I wonder especially about the part where I said "Perhaps unsustainable techniques are the short term answer to kick start production".

    3. Re:"has worked" and "will work" by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      Yes. You have a single "perhaps" that's immediately followed by a "but" in a post that otherwise strongly takes the position that the immediate fix and what every western country is already doing is the wrong answer. Maybe it's not what you intended, but it looks to me like you're trying to take a position and then weasel out of anyone being able to call you on it. Your post that calls out the "perhaps" as if that somehow mitigates the rest of the post just reinforces that appearance.

      If you want to take a different position, take the position first and then apply qualifiers. If you truly meant that immediately producing food via the quickest method possible is the correct answer, your post did not convey the intended meaning.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    4. Re:"has worked" and "will work" by aclarke · · Score: 1

      It's a complex issue, which is why there's no consensus on the appropriate resolution. In addition, Africa is a large politically, environmentally, culturally and economically diverse area, so there's no single solution. I'm not an expert, nobody (except you) is reading what I have to say anyway, so I wouldn't attempt to provide a categorical position. I do agree that it's hypocritical for the west to tell Africans not to do something when they are doing it themselves. That position is not incongruent with the opinion that a "non-sustainable" farming technique is by its very definition a bad long-term idea. To restate my earlier point, the only use I see for current non-sustainable farming techniques are applying them as short-term fixes. Surely you can agree that if this is done, due to their immediate benefits there's a danger that they'll be left in place longer than they should be, to the detriment of the region's long term success. One has only to look at nearly any economic activity with harmful environment results to see this attitude in action.

  92. Drying up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Feeding Africa in the long run can only be done if there's serious action on climate change on our end. The continent might literally dry up in less then a century. I'm not talking metaphorically either--massive global drying is considered to be a potential catastrophic result of rising temperatures (although more research is needed). http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2010/10/20/206899/ncar-daidrought-under-global-warming-a-review/

  93. I have an idea! by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    I think I have an idea. Maybe they should correct a mistake that was made thousands of years ago. As the article itself states, Africa doesn't support human life so everyone there should move to a place that does support human life. That's so genius it's almost stupid! I mean seriously, who thinks "Hmmm, the soil won't grow anything, it's unbearably hot, everything here wants to eat us, and there's no water...let's keep living here!"

    1. Re:I have an idea! by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      I mean seriously, who thinks "Hmmm, the soil won't grow anything, it's unbearably hot, everything here wants to eat us, and there's no water...let's keep living here!"

      It's almost the same mindset that thinks:
      "Hmmmm, there is no soil to grow anything. All food must be brought in by oil consuming vehicles. I have to live in a 20x30' box, 200' in the air. There is never any silence, only a constant rising and falling background hum of humanity. The last time I saw a star was years ago. Let's stay here!"

  94. Just what we need... by SebaSOFT · · Score: 1

    we feed Africa by growing more food. Don't we have that already? Food distriution is the problem here. Look at your trash can, see how much food you ate that overpasses what you really need. I guess Malawi Government is trying that approach because no other country wouild actually help in the way they need. Other than experiments with chemicals, medicine and what not. Africa's problem is that is the back(grave)yard of the rest of the world.

    1. Re:Just what we need... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "see how much food you ate that overpasses what you really need."
      irrelevant.

      It is a distribution problem in that food and tools that go there often gets waylaid by warlords.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Just what we need... by SebaSOFT · · Score: 1

      May be both, don't you think?

  95. Aquaponics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Poor soil not a problem for aquaponics system.

  96. Solution by wmaker · · Score: 1

    Cannibalism solves both the hunger and population problems.

  97. Put birth control in their water. by s0nicfreak · · Score: 1

    Or just stop giving them food and things will even out - without enough food to sustain a fetus, women stop ovulating. Eventually their population will be a size that can be sustained by their natural food resources. Let's not fuck up the whole world to keep a culture alive that can't see that when food is scarce they should not grow their population.

    1. Re:Put birth control in their water. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      So..what? no one should farm because nature will sort itself out?

      If you buy any food, then you are a hypocrite.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Put birth control in their water. by s0nicfreak · · Score: 1

      I use sustainable, non-destructive methods to grow my food. They should do the same, and if the soil isn't good enough to grow enough food to sustain a growing population, they should stop making a growing population. If we stay in balance with nature, it provides us with what we need to survive. If a few people try to take more than their share, all living things get fucked over.

  98. Re:Have less children, fight overpopulation in Afr by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

    Africa could probably feed it's population if it had the infrastructure, machinery, supplies and knowledge to operate modern farms. They don't and their population keeps growing while the rest of the world feeds them.

  99. You're contributing to the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're contributing to the problem by feeding people who can't sustain themselves.
    Food + humans = 2x humans in under 20 years.

    What part of overpopulation don't you understand?

  100. The Animals should take priority by transcender · · Score: 1

    Leave Africa alone... If the wild animals are more suited to thrive in that pristine natural environment, then humans and agriculture should not take priority. The great wilderness and wildlife depend on it, and would be significantly diminished with a human population boom.

    1. Re:The Animals should take priority by transcender · · Score: 1

      I believe its worth more for humanity to preserve the wildest and most beautiful place on Earth instead of dumping fertilizer all over it.

  101. Both? by residieu · · Score: 1

    It seems the logical course is to subsidize chemical fertilizers to increase production immediately, and at the same time encourage the sustainable practices so that a few years down the road they can take the place of chemical fertilizers.

  102. Let nature take its course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Famine has been part of the picture for millions of years.

    Attempting to change that now is just another example of
    the hubris of modern man, who creates as many problems
    as he solves ( You don't believe this ? You haven't been paying attention. ).

  103. Infrastructure and distribution by mrxak · · Score: 1

    The world produces plenty of food, enough to feed everyone, including everyone in Africa, with enough to spare that we can all get fat. The problem is infrastructure and distribution.

    Forget sending over food to Africa. So much of it will be spoiled or destroyed before it reaches a starving person. If we decide that "fixing Africa" is what we ought to do (that's a debate for another topic), we should go about it intelligently.

    Build an infrastructure of roads, railroads, and highways. Nice modern ones, and then maintain them well and make sure they reach everyone. Then send over a lot of nice refrigerated trucks and railcars, and maintain them well. Then package food well, to prevent damage and spoilage. Even in the modern west we lose a lot of food and other products to improper packaging, so we should continue developing better packaging here at home, and share those advances. Next, build an electrical grid to consistently power tens of thousands of super markets across the continent, and maintain it well. Then, build those nice refrigerated super markets, and maintain them well.

    Then, send over the food, if it's even needed anymore. My guess is we'll need to send hardly any food over at all, the existing agricultural output of the continent will be properly distributed without damage and spoilage and we can continue fattening ourselves up guilt-free.

  104. Lets worry about ourselves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This seems like a good question to be posted on an African website. I'm sure there will be lots of interesting ideas on slashdot, but unfortunately the implementation will most likely result in (surprise!) western troops killing people in Africa.

  105. We can already feed the world this is a sham! by bridgey655 · · Score: 1

    See aquaponics, cybernated farm systems, vertical organic self sufficient farming, automated farming.. we CAN already do this. It is not profitable to do so. But money is just ink, paper and numbers on a computer screen. They don't have it in star trek - we DON'T need it now! See www.thevenusproject.com for more information and watch www.zeitgeistmovingforward.com :)

  106. Easy fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A MUCh easier fix .. POPULATION CONTROL. Stop making babies if you cant feed em. And Africa cannot feed itself. Its isnt the wests job to subsidize their inability to use birth control.

  107. Also, some of the richest by rbowen · · Score: 1

    Africa also has some of the richest soil in the world.

    One of my favorite stories about my visit to Zaire (now Congo), is when we were taken to see the air strip.

    We were visiting a little mission hospital on the shore of Lake Tanganyika, near Uvira, and one day they said that we were going to walk out to the air strip. They didn't get many planes in, and each time they were expecting a plane in, they'd send out some folks to make sure that it was clear.

    But this was just after the rainy season, and there hadn't been a plane for almost two months, and we couldn't find the air strip at first because there were full-sized trees growing all over it. We found the markers, and it was clear where it had been, but it looked like a full-grown forest.

    As others have mentioned, saying that Africa has some of the poorest soil in the world is absurd. So does the USA. It's a little like saying "Australia has some of the youngest people in the world."

    --
    Apache guy, Open Source enthusiast, runner
    1. Re:Also, some of the richest by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Africa is a big place. It's not all like how you describe.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  108. The green alternative... by steak · · Score: 1

    it is much more environmentally friendly to let them starve to death rather than use "harmful" fertilizers and pesticides that improve crop yields.

  109. Ignorance of Africa by glorybe · · Score: 0

    White Americans really usually have no clue about the nature of Africa or it's problems. We almost seem born that way. But for my two cents the climate and insects in Africa would steer me to want to do indoor crop production in a very controlled and well contained environment. Raising everything in Africa seems to be way too challenging. Here we don't have elephants or even camels eating our gardens at night. We don't have to play tag with cobras while picking strawberries either. And Africa has insects that are just way too hard to deal with as well. Then if we get past all of that and we have a indoor fish farm and tomato factory what do we do with the huge number of workers in agriculture that are always left out when better production takes place. We did that in India. Given a few tractors, pesticides and fertilizer we displaced so many farm workers that we kicked off mass starvation as the now unemployed farm workers now had no money to buy food and the farmers exported the crops. Nothing is easy in Africa.

  110. Terra Preta by Phoenix666 · · Score: 1

    I've been following the story of terra preta (Portuguese: "Black Earth") in the Amazonian basin since I saw a program on how it seems to have enabled a pre-contact civilization there that numbered in the millions, because its amazing fertility allowed the inhabitants to get up to 3-4 crops a year. They know that the soil was manufactured, not natural, and that it regenerates if left alone. In Brazil they mine it from known deposits and sell it as potting soil to the coastal cities.

    If they can figure out how to recreate terra preta in Africa, they can more than feed themselves. They can grow diverse crops, not just nutrient-poor ones that thrive in marginal soils. And if they can learn to stop over-grazing sahel, they can stop and reverse desertification.

    As other posters have pointed out, most of Africa's problems are political in nature. They cannot resist spoiling the eden they live in. And, no, it's not all the fault of the big, bad European colonizers. Africa was a basket case long before that era. It is a tribal continent and always has been. But if, and it's a big 'if,' they can move past the internecine conflict they'd quickly be one of the wealthiest regions in the world. I sincerely hope they do, because there is an underlying vibrancy to Africa that can change the world, if allowed to flourish.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
  111. How to fix hunger in Africa? by databaseadmin · · Score: 1

    I know this is politically sensitive. I am NOT trying to be a troll. I just want to be practical.

    The solution is: Birth Control.
    More practically, the solution is alleviating the need to have a large family.

    Look at the countries that are on the top of this list:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_birth_rate

    This is REALLY simple folks. You want to have a MASSIVE famine? Step 1 is have a lot of babies.

  112. Technology, education and Hydroponics by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    Throwing food at them just extends their demise, giving them technology to build their own tools for survival is what will fix that. I'm sure there are tens of thousands of bright minds in Africa ready to be creative if they just go the means and the tools

    Hydroponics; Forget about soil, you don't need it but if you do want to use a substrate than there's Rockwool (they use fibreglass insulation back in the day), Clay Pebbles aka Hydroton, Coco Fiber and Peat. A lot of the plants can be grown in Deep Water Culture, Aeroponics and Aquaponics which require no substrate at all. All you need is access to fresh water and design way to recapture the water that is transpired through the plants and recycle it. Maybe some kind of fully sealed greenhouse where water vapor is recaptured. Mind you you'd than have to supplement co2 but that can be done with burning propane/ng which also creates water vapour which could be captured.

    From http://www.ucar.edu/learn/1_4_2_18t.htm

    Plants transpire vast quantities of water - only one percent of all water a plant absorbs is used in photosynthesis; the rest is lost through transpiration. In one growing season, one corn plant transpires over 200 liters.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  113. Like this by geekoid · · Score: 1

    1) Kill all the warlords,
    2) Set up locals to own their own shops
    3) set up infrastructure to be able to utilize local resource.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  114. its really very simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    have less babies...

    less babies=less people=less demand for resources...

    same can be said for the rest of the world

    small problem - how to implement...

  115. for an economist, he's left out a few facts by Coop · · Score: 1

    For one thing, Kenya's population has increased 10 times since the 1930's, thanks to the outsider's agricultural and transportation advances. Even the crop in question -- maize -- was brought by the Europeans from the Americas. So I'm not so sure that Africa was doing so great, by today's standards, before the outsiders came. The argument that "if we let things get bad enough, the leaders will be forced to do something" is proven incorrect by a look at history. Exactly how bad do things have to get?

    The whole planet is on an unsustainable course, and we'll all end up living in a way that takes less out of it. But by sharing information we can have less waste on the one hand, and less hunger on the other.

    --
    "If you're not passionate about your operating system, you're married to the wrong one."
  116. Displaced farmers not land owners, but sharecroppe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those displaced by the great depression didn't own the land they were using in the first place - so this wouldn't show up in your one-tenth rate but same sort of hurt/loss happened...
    I don't know how this factor would affect the rate you mentioned.

  117. Sustainable means zero growth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's nothing wrong with using technology and culture to increase productivity, but it might also be reasonable to consider where the limits on growth are - maybe start thinking about population and its limits.

  118. Raise the IQ Level First by Baldrson · · Score: 1
    Africa's IQ level is the lowest of any continent. Raise it and the rest will be much easier. Nutrition is a part of that but if you don't focus on the aspects of nutrition that raise IQ first -- preferably by preventing childhood brain mal-development -- you're wasting your effort.

    You know how I know all these "We're So Concerned About Africa So Lets Spend Lots More Money There" elites aren't serious about helping Africans?

    They've funded nothing in the area of smart drugs that might be a very inexpensive way to help Africa. Why the selective loss of cognitive function, oh thou Holier-Than-Thou-Intelligensia? Why can't you talk honestly about IQ when it comes to Africans? Is that because you enjoy the social status of appearing to nubile Harvard coeds and Harvard teaches its nubile coeds that it is Sin to think about Race and IQ?

  119. Turn it into Hunger Games / Battle Royale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for our amusement. mwahahahahaha~

  120. Stop meddling in other countries by hessian · · Score: 1

    When you meddle, you become the sugar daddy and the other countries will either hate you for being rich and not being able to solve all their problems, or will hate you for controlling their countries even if your intentions are good.

    Another writer expressed this better than I can.

  121. Error by shiftless · · Score: 1

    Get the african nations to stop fighting each other over tarot roots, and get them to ship dirt to each other.

    Logic error, line 11: Impossible to satisfy conditions

    Compilation aborted

  122. Poor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is the richest countries in the world, yet her riches are her problems. All the factions are fighting for her riches and want to control that. To fix the poverty issue, we need to make them wealthy first. That with a moral commitment and strong police force, will help.

  123. Wrong problem being addressed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think we're addressing the wrong problem here.

    Give a man a fish, you know?

    If we keep feeding Africa they'll gain a representative expectation that we're going to feed them. Instead we need to convince them to:

    1. Stop having sex so much. Sex makes babies. If you can't afford to feed a kid, don't insert your penis into a vagina.
    2. Do stuff. You have to work a lot in order to have an economy. Sitting around chewing qat doesn't build community centers.
    3. Don't pay the country's leaders very much or give them any real power. As long as there's lots of money and power in leadership people will campaign for the wrong reasons.
    4. Don't reward bad behavior. If you provide foreign aid and the country's leadership and civilians don't do their part to rebuild, stop providing foreign aid.

  124. Polytunnels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Polytunnels are the way forward for arid or semi-arid regions: they're cheap, they protect the crops from harsh sun, maintain water levels, protect soil from erosion, etc

    http://adreama.blogspot.com/2011/06/polytunnel-in-desert.html

  125. Republic of Texas by happyfeet2000 · · Score: 1

    Another tidbit of history: one of the several reasons the settlers of Texas fought for their independence was that the Mexican government forbid slavery, and was going to enforce that law in Texas. The settlers stated that without their slaves there was no way they could prosper...

  126. How To Feed Africa? by luk3Z · · Score: 0

    Forbid US corporations to interfere in Africas local government and stop stealing their natural resources.

    --
    Recipes for USA bankrupt - http://tinypaste.com/0d66f dd = dollar deluge (printed in the infinity)
  127. And deal with Sally Struthers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If Sally Struthers, and her let them eat cake attitude, is not part of the solution...

  128. Remineralizing African soils by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    To be fertile, soil also needs micronutrients held by the clay and organic matter; see:
    "Towards Holistic Agriculture: A Scientific Approach" by R.W. Widdowson
    http://www.amazon.com/Towards-Holistic-Agriculture-Scientific-Approach/dp/0080342116

    You can also see ideas about high nutrient gardening here:
    http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

    See also, for the natural way to get such soil:
    http://www.kidsgeo.com/geology-for-kids/0052-volcanoes-and-plant-life.php
    "While it is true that the immediate effect of volcanoes on plant life is death, the long term effect is very positive. Magma from the Earth’s core contains a rich source of nutrients that plants need to survive. Each time a volcano erupts, it brings these nutrients with it. When volcanoes explode, spreading ash around a large area, this ash acts as a fertilizer, enriching the soil. It is no surprise that the soil near volcanoes is among the richest and most fertile on Earth."

    We can reproduce that effect by simply grinding up appropriate rocks:
    http://www.remineralize.org/
    "Remineralize the Earth is a nonprofit organization assisting the worldwide movement of remineralizing soils with finely ground rock dust, sea minerals and other natural and sustainable means to increase the growth, health, and nutrient value of all plant life. Adding minerals and trace elements is vital to the creation of fertile soils, healthy crops and forests, and is a key strategy to stabilize the climate."

    See the pictures there for what vegetables are supposed to look like when raised on truly fertile soil.

    I agree with you though that much energy that could go into solving problems gets ironically dissipated in fighting -- often just over the problems that energy otherwise could solve if applied imaginatively. See also the section on "What Are The Limits on Food Production?" In "The Ultimate Resource II: People, Materials, and Environment" by Julian Simon:
    http://www.juliansimon.com/writings/Ultimate_Resource/

    An important reason Africa is such a mess politically is from the legacy of European colonization though (although that is not the only reason):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonisation_of_Africa

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  129. Remineralization from ground-up rock, too by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1
    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  130. The 60 forty rule will become 40 sixty in 10 years by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

    Today on the radio, the results of a think tank about the economy and the aging population came out with the following:

    In the USA, with outsourcing of work, companies need fewer and fewer people as the actual manufacturing will be done outside of the USA. The engineering work, by a select few people, will result in major employment outside of the USA and in large unemployment within.

    The projections are: Today, 40 percent of unemployed and the retired are supported by 60 percent of the employed. By 2025, the figures will be reversed.
    This will cause hardships for the large corporations, and some will merge with others as there will not be enough domestic consumers with money.

    Moreover, the small entrepreneur will not be able to compete with the oligopoly of large corporations. Democracy will also suffer as lobbyists may have more say than citizens.

    What can be done?
    The radio report suggested that large corps have a responsibility to ensure that there will be domestic jobs to permit paying customers. That is only possible of there is local manufacturing. This means, curtailing outsourcing, or insisting at least, that half of the critical products be manufactured domestically (such as is done with cars).

    This projection does worry me, but it will be a concern for the generation now in high school -- my kids and grandkids. (By the time it take effect, would I be alive to see it, as I am in my early 70's).

    --
    Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  131. Sustainable or unsustainable? Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm going to go with unsustainable so that it matches the world's population growth.

    But seriously, who in their right mind asks how to feed a continent full of people like it's some town that just suffered flash-flooding?

  132. Hemp seed by dbreeze · · Score: 1

    Most nutritious food source known with modest water and soil nutrient requirements. Gotta love this drug war thing......
    Everyone please read Genesis 1:29 and think about it a while........ http://net.bible.org/#!bible/Genesis+1:29
    (might want to read the whole book actually, considering all that's happening in the world these days........)

    --
    When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law he tore his robes.2Kings22:11