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Hybrid Car Owners Not Likely To Buy Another Hybrid
An anonymous reader writes "A new study has found that people who purchased a hybrid car in the past are not likely to buy a hybrid for their next car purchase. 'Only 35% of hybrid vehicle owners chose to purchase a hybrid again when they returned to the market in 2011, according to auto information company R.L. Polk & Co. If you factor out the super-loyal Toyota Prius buyers, the repurchase rate drops to under 25%.' The study also found Florida drivers to be a bit more loyal to the hybrid segment than elsewhere in the country. 'It's hard to know what's causing the low repurchase rate. One reason is that about 17,000 people purchased electric cars last year, and other data shows that many of those were trading in a hybrid vehicle. Honda has been hounded by high-profile class-action and small claims court lawsuits over fuel economy issues with older models of its Civic hybrid. ... Hybrid vehicles represent just 2.4% of the overall new vehicle market in the U.S., according to Polk, down from a high of 2.9% in 2008.'"
The cost difference between a regular gas sedan and a hybrid of the same size is generally not offset by the savings in fuel costs for driving it. Why do it again if it didn't work the first time?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I'd buy a diesel again in a heart beat. I get 40 miles to the gallon city in my Volkswagen Sportswagen. And diesel is 30 cents cheaper a gallon than petrol. Plus, the technology is robust. Diesel is definite the way to go if you want high gas mileage and low costs.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
It could be that people had unreasonable expectations from the hybrid to begin with, if you look at the advertising they promised a green car that doesn't use fuel and has flowers grow in its wake. In reality you ended up getting something that was marginally better fuel mileage than a compact car, but costs a lot more.
I drive a prius, I am disappointed with the fact that they STILL use outdated nimh batteries instead of lithium. Afaik they also don't use any of these new awesome ultracapacitors, so what the hell are they doing? The industry's stagnation annoys me, and I doubt I am alone.
Get ride of all the complexity caused by the hybrids (battery packs, motors, etc).
Clean diesel is here today.
I drive a VW Golf TDI - It's not slow by any means (140hp, a bit below average for a hatchback, but 240ib/ft of torque, over a wide rev range, so it's very driveable, great passing power, etc), has great handling (no skinny fuel miser tires that ruin the driving experience), and gets great mileage. (30/42 EPA, but those are quite conservative. I get typically 33-35 around town, at 60mph constant speed I'm at 51-53mpg depending on how smooth the road is, dropping down to about 45 at 70, and 41 at 78-80).
It also only costs about $25k, with plenty of standard equipment.
TODO: Something witty here...
My Honda Insight has served me beautifully, with almost 90 MPG lifetime average (I drive a slow 50mph). And it wasn't any more expensive than a regular car. My only disappointment is the lack of diesel hybrids. Many of them come with small 75hp engines, so they could use the extra 15hp that a Honda-style motor provides.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
'It's hard to know what's causing the low repurchase rate.
You could try, oh, maybe, *asking* them why not?
To some degree, but the first prius went on sale in the US in 2001, which was 11 years ago. Lots of people replace their cars far more often than every 11 years.
"If you factor out the super-loyal Toyota Prius buyers, the repurchase rate drops to under 25%..." the summary mentions. Would that be kind of like saying, "If you factor out the number of humans alive on Earth right now, the human population of Earth is zero." or another favorite that might ring more bells for people, "Of course it's unlimited data. We only shut it off once you exceed 2GB per month."
People here in CA were nudged to get a hybrid in no small part due to the ability to get a sticker that allowed solo driver access to the HOV lanes. Once that went away, a big part of the incentive went with it. I know some people who sold their hybrids in advance of the change, anticipating that the car would sell for more while they still could use the lanes.
So while hybrid owners might be unlikely to buy another, it could be due in part that without the HOV lane access they wouldn't have bought one in the first place. The story then would be "Car buyers follow temporary gov't incentive, move on when incentive goes away"
Most hybrids didn't offer better economy in the long run, once the added cost was factored in. They relied heavily on other incentives to make them more desirable in the first place. I'm surprised that those incentives didn't show up in the survey, or at least weren't mentioned in the report.
Seriously. This study was released way too early. People don't buy cars that often.
It's possible that the same type of people drawn to an environment-saving car would replace their car at a lower rate than others though.
You could also write this article completely the other way.
2.4% of car purchasers buy a hybrid.
35% of hybrid owners would buy another hybrid.
So the headline could be "Hybrid Owners 14 Times More Likely to Buy Another Hybrid", which is completely different than "Hybrid Car Owners Not Likely To Buy Another Hybrid".
Civic Hybrid owner:
- Great on gas mileage
- Gutless.. I have an easier time passing people in my turbo diesel truck
- Weird issues with batteries.. Leave the car for a week, batteries are dead.
- Did I mention Gutless?
Overall, I've been happy with the gas mileage but I won't buy another hybrid. The experience outside of the good gas mileage has been disappointing. I'll probably try the diesel car route like a VW Jetta the next time around.
Do you inspect a roller coaster everytime you ride it?
This isn't totally surprising.
I was an early adopter of the Honda Civic Hybrid in July of 2002. I've had bad problems with the continuously variable transmission (which required multiple visits to the deader, but thankfully was fixed under warranty), hybrid battery problems (again thankfully replaced under warranty), and a bad ERG valve (which I had to pay for). And I felt I had to take it to the dealer for oil changes (since it uses synthetic oil). Compared to the Honda Accord I had for 10 years before this car, the Honda Civic Hybrid has had a lot of problems.
Also, there is a class action lawsuit from owners dissatisfied with their Honda Civic Hybrid's mileage that is close to settling.
And, I do plan to drive this car for at least a few more years. I do think I've saved money, as well as creating less polution. And for my next car I will be considering a hybrid, a plug-in hybrid, or an electric car.
...the cars are so efficient, they don't make much heat. So if you live in the North, your car heater may not ever heat up your car, since it uses non-existent engine heat. The AC works much better.
Also, in snow, most of these very-low-riding vehicles bottom-out on almost no snow as they are lowered to reduce drag.
Mountain driving isn't too sweet either... nothing like hearing the gerbils scream as you go up an incline and watching your battery go dead halfway up a mountain (then you have half an engine).
Now mine is very old, so maybe the idea has gotten much better...
If you factor out the super-loyal Toyota Prius buyers, the repurchase rate drops to under 25%.
The numbers are interesting indeed... but factoring out "the super-loyal Toyota Prius buyers" just to drop it from 35% to 25% doesn't really help the argument as much as make the reader question the research methods involved.. considering any laymen already has in the notion hiding in the back of their mind that that Pri'i make up for quite a bit of the cumulative hybrid market share (it's got ~3 generations head start on all other "mainstream" hybrids).
And when said laymen goes to google such a statistic and finds that even last year ( http://www.hybridcars.com/market-dashboard.html ):
Regular Prius and Prius V combined [represent] 58 percent of total hybrid sales.
... Well it's like saying death rates are dropping, if we factor out the "super deadly" causes of death such as heart disease and cancer.
The super-loyal-ty-ness-ess of Pri'i owners here obviously shouldn't be considered a factor that would affect the results, as much as they are a key metric in determining such a result (loyalty begets repurchase as it is an indicator of some set of factors said survey is attempting to measure in the first place... duh?)
I'm likely to buy an electric. My commute + daily chores are well within the range of electric vehicles. When I buy the electric, the hybrid will still be around, but only for the occasional longer trip. Hopefully, by the time the hybrid dies, electric vehicles with 200-300 mi range will cost much less.
Hybrids CAN pay for themselves on a couple conditions. #1 you must use the vehicle for 100K miles or more. #2 you must be able to do math #3 you probably need to be doing a lot of city driving.
Let's do some math for the 2012 Ford Fusion Over 100K miles at 26mpg you will burn 3846 gallons of gas.
At $3.50 per gallon that's $13461 in gas.
For the hybrid, it's 39mpg (combined as is the 26 figure above). so this works out to $8974 in gas.
For a savings of $4487.
If I recall correctly, the price adder for that car was higher than that, so not a win. However, the savings goes up by 50 percent if you drive it for 150K miles. The savings will also go up with gas prices. It also gets better if you do predominantly city driving (I used the generic "combined" EPA figures). At some point it will be a net savings. This trivial example also neglects some other nice things like not wearing out your brake rotors (a non-trivial cost) or reduced number of oil changes (a trivial cost). It also neglects the cost of battery replacement - something which people worry about but I have not heard being a real world issue.
A Prius OTOH can be had for much closer to $20K and is generally a winner compared to any non-hybrid car so long as you drive 100K miles. I'm not a fan of it and would not buy one.
As volumes go up we can also expect the cost differential to come down.
So there we have the reason - it's not obvious weather you save dollars. Many people actually DO save money with a hybrid - particularly Prius owners.
My 2011 Impreza cost me $20,000, and is a compact car. The only 4wd hybrids are large SUVs, which cost $30,000. Even at $4.00 a gallon, $10,000 buys a lot of gas. At 21 miles a gallon, $10,000 buys over 57,000 miles worth of gas!
Furthermore, Subaru service charges a lot less money then Honda service, and their accessories cost less. Honda charged me $400 for rubber floor mats, and Subaru charged me $100 for rubber floor mats.
Now, had I not wanted 4wd, I probably would have bought the Insight. I really prefer its quietness and smoothness over the Impreza. On the other hand, given that Honda service is expensive, regular mechanics won't work on Honda hybrids, and that the Insight would probably be worthless after 7 years, I'm probably going to spend less money owning the Impreza.
No, I will not work for your startup
If you factor out Prius owners? The most popular brand of hybrid? The one bought by people who like hybrids? Yeah I suppose if you don't count the people who like hybrids, then only 35% of the rest still like hybrids?...
Did you even read the summary?
Only 35% of hybrid vehicle owners chose to purchase a hybrid again when they returned to the market in 2011, according to auto information company R.L. Polk & Co. If you factor out the super-loyal Toyota Prius buyers, the repurchase rate drops to under 25%.
The 35% INCLUDES Prius owners. Take out the Prius owners and the repurchase rate drops to 25%
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Seriously, some people act like everyone drives hundreds of miles a day. Guess what? they don't. It is by far the exception, not the rule. If you drive 75 miles each way to work you are by far in the minority. Most people in that situation would move closer to their workplace.
For the average commute, an electric with even a 73 mile range (the low estimate on the LEAF) would work fine. The average commute is 16 miles, one way. That means you could go to work, get off work, go somewhere else, and go home and still be fine (remember it refuels every night).
I get tired of this bitching like everyone needs a car that can drive tons of miles so that is a reason electrics can't work. No, not at all actually. Some people do. For them, electrics are out. However most other don't, for them it is an option.
I knew a number of people who bought hybrid suv's. There are convential gas hybrids which are only slightly smaller vehiciles that now get better gas milage than their hybrids do and at a lower purchase price. None of them want another hybrid at this point.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
A hybrid is a significantly more complex vehicle that uses more toxic parts than a regular car.
In addition, a few million retired Baby Boomers (this is the only type of person I see driving a Prius) driving hybrids will not impact the environment at all.
Our environmental problem consists of two real problems and many false ones. The real problems: (a) overpopulation and (b) reckless industrial growth. The fake problems: inefficient lightbulbs, unrecycled condoms, non-hybrid cars, non-"green" cleaners, etc.
If we want to stop our slow but ongoing ecocide, we need to change the way we live. You can start by buying a car with a reasonably sized engine, making as few trips as possible, and keeping that car for 20-30 years as once was done.
Futurist Traditionalism
So if the Prius has customer satisfaction so much higher that it takes overall hybrid loyalty from 25% to 35% that must mean that well over 35% of Prius drivers would buy another Prius.
It seems that this article's misstating its own claims. Instead of saying "Most hybrid owners don't want another hybrid" it seems like it should be saying "The Prius seems to be a lot better than other hybrids(according to the people who own them)."
"Excluding Prius owners"... well there's your problem. Of the hybrids people would likely be trading in (2000-2008ish), only the Toyota Prius is worth a damn. All the others in that year range had tiny electric motors which barely gave any hybrid boost at all. If the "hybrid" you're trading in is basically an ordinary car with a cordless drill motor strapped to the fan belt, of course you're not going to be loyal to it.
Hybrids haven't been here for long, the people who buy a new car every 5 years are not a representative population.
It seems good to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy (or other articles on the topic). If the article is correct that 2.4% of new cars sold are hybrids (which sounds reasonable) then the base rate expectation for a "random person" buying a hybrid is low. If the probability of a previous owner of a hybrid buying one next time is 35%, that's still around 14 times the base rate expectation.
Now clearly, car buying habits are hardly monte carlo style distributions. There is a considerably greater "loyalty" to specific cars than just the random assignment of an available vehicle to a driver. Most of that is probably pretty closely tied with income and socio-economic status. Also, obviously occupational effects matter; and also regional ones do. But consistency in brand or style in repeated car purchases is most certainly far lower than 100%.
It is not at all clear from the evidence given whether hybrid-loyalty is greater or less than other types. For example, I *just* bought a Honda Insight (which seems a lot less common than Toyota Prius, despite what seem to be even more favorable reviews; name recognition does seem big here). Like literally days ago, so I'm probably not good evidence in any direction about next vehicle purchase. But prior to that (and still), my partner and I own an Audi A4--a brand that probably sells no more than 2.4% of cars in the US (i.e. the brand as a whole, not the specific model which must be lower still). Even if a hybrid were out of consideration and I could only consider a conventional gasoline engine, I think there's much less than 35% chance I'd choose an Audi for my next car. Not because I have any particular criticism of Audi, but just because there are lots of other choices, even given similar driving patterns and socio-economic status. I could buy a Saab, or Volvo, or Acura, or maybe on a bit pricier side a BMW, Mercedes, Lexis, or slightly downscale a Buick or Lincoln, or a VW which comes from the same factory even. All of these are pretty comparable, and brand loyalty might lean my decision slightly, but there's a long way to go between the base rate--even of only "semi-luxury sedans"--to get to 35% brand retention.
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After 13 years it's still the only car with a direct drive transmission; no clutch, nothing but gears between crankshaft and wheels. In fact, that's the main basis for the hybrid design; using two motors is really incidental, they just enable use of the transmission. Everything else in the design (engine stopped when car stopped, Atkinson cycle engine, electric air conditioning, etc) also follows from use of what Toyota calls the "Hybrid Synergy Drive". What's a little strange is that the car was designed by an American team of engineers based in California. Would be interesting to find out the whole story there, it's pretty difficult to get details other than the head design engineer on the project died a few years ago.
To some degree, but the first prius went on sale in the US in 2001, which was 11 years ago. Lots of people replace their cars far more often than every 11 years.
It took until 2004 or 2005 for the Prius to rise to prominence and sell in higher numbers. I've ridden in one with around 250,000 miles on them (complete with the original battery), so yeah I think there are many who are simply holding on to a good thing.
I miss the old days of pushing my '78 AMC Pacer around town on errands. Man, that thing got GREAT mileage because it would barely ever start or stay running long enough to burn gas.
Good times... good times...
Looking forward to replacing my '94 Subaru wagon with an AWD/4WD hybrid.
But, there's no such product on the market.
I would buy a new Prius to replace my 2001, but I don't need -- it's in excellent condition.
FTFA, "If you factor out the super-loyal Toyota Prius buyers ... No other hybrid was anywhere close [in overal sales]." Well no duh. If you factor out the Prius, what do you have left? Cars that have hybrid engine options that sell at a premium. As a Prius owner, 7 years and 47000 miles later, I may not even have to buy another car!
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That trafic signal is there only because a car is a danger for everything around it. There is no need to control the bike (and the ciclist will even control hinself if he wishes to live - what's not granted).
"What's not granted" with this sort of intersection is a cyclist's ability to stop the cross traffic in order to get a green light to cross the road safely. As the operator of a vehicle (albeit a non-motorized one), I'm under the impression that I have the right to an eventual green light. I'd just prefer not to have to wait ten minutes in order to be "chaperoned" through an intersection by whatever car occasionally happens to show up. There's no pedestrian call button or marked crosswalk at this intersection either, or I'd have been using that. Nor does the city seem to want to fix the sensors so that they can see my bike.
Its because most consumers don't actually understand what hybrids are really for.
Its amazing how many people (including the motoring media) in the US incorrectly believe that the reason for buying a hybrid over a normal car is to save gas money. This is not even close to the actual reason hybrids were invented, so its no surprise that it doesn't really work out that way either.
Don't believe me? Go compare the price and MPG of a Toyota Prius compared to, say, a Toyota Yaris.
The real reason hybrids came about is as a way to reduce CO2 emisions for a greener environment and to fight global warming, mostly regardless of cost of ownership.
But the green angle doesn't look so good either when you factor in the (actually quite nasty) emissions from the production and disposal of all the extra stuff like Lithium batteries that that go into a Prius over a conventional car.
While you may have a point, some of it is offset by the errors in your analysis.
CO2 emission is virtually the same thing as fuel usage - if you have low CO2 emission you necessarily have low fuel usage (for a gas powered vehicle at least), and if you have low fuel usage you necessarily have low CO2 emission. No matter what the vehicle, each gallon of gas you burn produces the same amount of CO2.
I do not know the details of the hybrid battery disposal/recycling, but that is the only "extra" stuff in a Prius compared to any other "conventional" vehicle. All of the battery components can in principle be recycled, which doesn't mean that it actually is unfortunately.
Seriously, it is INSANE to buy a car with parallel hybrid. You inherit the worst of both ICE and Electrical. That is just crazy. For cars, you should either buy electric (like tesla model S), OR an ICE using gas/diesel. You would buy ICE if you are going to be traveling more than once a month more than the distance of the electric car.
Why are so many taxis I see in Vancouver Priuses? Are all of those business people INSANE? And they keep replacing them when they wear out with new hybrids?
I suppose they are not technically "parallel hybrid" as the nifty planetary gearing system can be used in a manner similar to parallel or series, but I think your "INSANE" statement is a bit strong even with that.
A hybrid has at least the potential to gain the best of both ICE and Electrical, in that the ICE can provide extended range, while the efficiencies in energy recovery and low speed torque from the electrical system can also be achieved.
Agreed. When my old car got totaled a couple years ago i priced several different types of used cars, including the Prius. Since i was comparing used cars the price differential was lower, and since i live in California i expected to be paying higher than average for gas. I've forgotten exactly how the math worked out, but i found that the Prius would pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time (i think about 5-6 years.)
A little over two years later and i'm still quite happy with my purchase. Even more immediate than the gas savings though is the fact that i only have to stop to refuel about once every other week. It's also impressive how quiet it can be. And although it's certainly not worth the price of admission by itself, all the electronic charts on the dash panel relating to charging and mileage are kind of fun.
I'd certainly get another hybrid (used of course) if i was in the market now, but i'm not, because i've already got a hybrid i'm quite happy with. If this care gets totaled or when i've driven it into the ground then i'll be in the market for another hybrid, unless of course something even better like fuel cell cars have come along by that point.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
You know, the -design- of the Prius et. al. was -not- to have it "pay for itself". This isn't surprising. My household refrigerator and washing machine don't "pay for themselves" either.
The Prius was tuned for -emissions- -efficency- not mileage. I knew this. For instance, in climbing hills the gasolene engine goes -much- faster than a comprable non-hybrid sedan. The higher speed is turned into electricty and then back into torque. If I punch it on the hill the engine goes faster still. The rule of losses in the transformation of energy dictates that energy (mileage) will be lost to transformation. Entropy must be paid. But the whole thing is squeaky clean.
People who expected to "make money" on their 40k car were idiots buying for the wrong reason. The rest of us bought for the green, and the smug, (be honest, there is smug to be had. 8-) and to drive down the price points as earily adopters.
And "mileage" is nearly the worst measurement of efficency there possibly could be. It is no wonder that big flat florida has people who -are- making back their money. The state is -flat-. If my commute were flat it would my mileage would be much better than it is today (42mpg). I have gotten 55mpg driving from Seattle to Portland, and only 48 driving the other direction (the sawtooth patern of the hills along I-5 is a determinant, very helpful going south, somewhat wasteful going north).
I lose most of my "mileage" in a prius in that once the engine starts it wants to run till it has "warmed up", which takes a significant part of my commute and is concentrated in the stationary time while I am stuck in surface street at terrible traffic lights, trying to get onto the highway. This meanst that all of my gas is spent pointlessly making heat.
I will likely not buy another hybrid though. I am planning on going electric next (e.g. leaf). Or to a Volt-Alike hybrid if I must.
Further on, I don't expect the electric to be much cheaper to run than the Prius. The state of Washington is gonny slap on a GPS tax any day, and electricty is clean but it aint as cheap as you might think. Ask anybody with an elevator or regularly used winch in a space they pay for. But I can aford the hit. I like having the smug, and I like having the cleaner tailpipe in general. -Someone- has to start paying to break the oil addiciton and having that opinion without willing to back it with my wallet would be hypocritical.
Full Disclosure: I also am midst of installing a geothermal heat pump in my house. I am expecting some savings, and some resale value improvement, but I doubt it will "pay for itself" for a very long time if ever. I'd like to back it with solar pannels because if I can get my energy bill down I expect to be able to sell the flash of having a negative electric bill several times a year when I sell the house.
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They can be triggered by getting your wheel over any of the sides. I prefer the center one, as I would be triggering both he loops.
The 6x20 I'm talking about looks sort of like that, but there is no center one. Because there is no center one, the traffic engineers turn down the sensitivity so that large delivery trucks in adjacent lanes don't trigger it. Someone from the city's traffic department suggested that I make a right* turn on red, a U-turn on the busy street, and then another right* turn.
If you see a different one, just mimic a car wheel, and it will certainly work.
It ends up happening not to. I do mimic a car wheel to the best of my ability. I've tried upright on the crack, I've tried tilting slightly into the loop on the crack, and I've tried laying it down on the crack. Nothing trips it except a car. A bike wheel is so much smaller than a car wheel that its smaller metal surface doesn't generate enough induction. Should I bring a camcorder next time so that people like you can watch my video and tell me exactly what I could change in order to stop failing?
Its induces more changes in current
Except I don't know the exact timing of when the signal set's computer is going to poll the loop, and I don't want to waste energy and look like an idiot continually moving my bike back and forth for several minutes so that it happens to be changing at the moment the computer polls the loop.
* This is the USA; substitute left in GB/AU/NZ.
What timing... I take delivery of my first hybrid today, a 2012 Toyota Prius. I did some basic math in making my decision, so I'll share:
This vehicle will replace a 2005 Chevy Uplander that we drove an average of 27,500 miles per year. The Uplander is getting 17.9 MPG at this point (according to the onboard computer), consuming 1,536 gallons of fuel annually. At the current price of $3.95 per gallon in my area, it costs $6,068 per year in just fuel (87 octane). Running the numbers again for the Prius, and assuming 45MPG, fuel will cost $2,413 per year... a savings of $3,655 annually, or $304 per month. Even after my wife added all the bells and whistles and extended warranty (she did that while I was out of the room), we will only be seeing a net outlay of $170 per month. And when my 13-year-old son goes to college, he will take this vehicle with him.
The Prius owners that I know are extremely satisfied, and one has had his since 2003. Although there are many other factors to consider, my monthly budget is certainly a major factor. I'm viewing this purchase this way: I'm buying a new car for $170 per month.
I sure if you poll those that own a the following cars they would be more likely to buy another hybrid: -Prius -Fusion -Insight -Escape The others were just companies trying to sell towards a fad without much engineering behind it.