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China Plans National, Unified CPU Architecture

MrSeb writes "According to reports from various industry sources, the Chinese government has begun the process of picking a national computer chip instruction set architecture (ISA). This ISA would have to be used for any projects backed with government money — which, in a communist country such as China, is a fairly long list of public and private enterprises and institutions, including China Mobile, the largest wireless carrier in the world. The primary reason for this move is to lessen China's reliance on western intellectual property. There are at least five existing ISAs on the table for consideration — MIPS, Alpha, ARM, Power, and the homegrown UPU — but the Chinese leadership has also mooted the idea of defining an entirely new architecture. What if China goes the DIY route and makes its own ISA or microarchitecture with silicon-level censorship and monitoring, or an always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies?"

240 comments

  1. bad idea by blackraven14250 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is probably among the worst ideas I've ever heard. They're basically saying "Standardize at the cost of having different architectures that are superior in their own ways", which is just absurd.

    1. Re:bad idea by DaMattster · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't think it is a question of a good or bad idea. As the summary surmises, a unified architecture could make it easier to build in a common backdoor for spying. This is an issue of making surveillance easier and this should hardly come as a surprise because a Communist country is entirely dependent upon controlling its citizens through the use of surveillance. Ultimately, by putting in place a mandate and enforcing it, it places additional costs and burdens on the businesses that must abide by these new regulations.

    2. Re:bad idea by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      This is the beauty of AMD, Intel and others going into details of why they are technically superior in a certain way. Then when cornered they say: yeah we're about the same but you can get a "faster" chip from us a little cheaper than the other guy. CPUs have become commodities in most people eyes: how much "make it go" do I get for my $200?

    3. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      a Communist country is entirely dependent upon controlling its citizens through the use of surveillance.

      Even if that were true, it'd be irrelevant as China is Capitalist. Read about their economy on Wikipedia and stop looking like a fool.

    4. Re:bad idea by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They still like to pretend they are communist to some extent. It's a national pride thing. Regardless, economic and political systems are not that closely linked: It's quite possible for a communist country to allow a great deal of political freedom, or a capitalist country to be as oppressive as any country can be.

    5. Re:bad idea by Microlith · · Score: 5, Informative

      a Communist country

      I think you mean "a dictatorial autocratic oligarchic country." Or something like that, possibly proto-fascist considering how closely linked their corporations and government officials are. China isn't communist by any stretch of the imagination, and the spying and censorship is purely for the purpose of keeping The Party in power, whatever the cost to the people.

    6. Re:bad idea by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Forcing everything to use one specific architecture, regardless as to how efficient it is at specific objectives related to the overall product (i.e. efficiency, multimedia processing, scientific calculations, etc..), isn't a bad thing?

    7. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are only two differences between communism and capitalism:
      1. which small group gets to make the decisions
      2. which small group (same as in #1) is controlling the surveillance.

      In communism, it's government/political leaders. In capitalism, it is the upper corporate echelon.

    8. Re:bad idea by adisakp · · Score: 1

      This is the beauty of AMD, Intel and others going into details of why they are technically superior in a certain way. Then when cornered they say: yeah we're about the same but you can get a "faster" chip from us a little cheaper than the other guy. CPUs have become commodities in most people eyes: how much "make it go" do I get for my $200?

      For what an average desktop neeps in gov't, you don't need to spend $200 on a CPU. Intel makes several CPU's that are capable of basic gaming for $80-$100.

    9. Re:bad idea by s4ltyd0g · · Score: 1, Interesting

      This is an issue of making surveillance easier and this should hardly come as a surprise because a Communist country is entirely dependent upon controlling its citizens through the use of surveillance.

      Does that make the US a communist country then as well?

    10. Re:bad idea by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      ..and which was the real reason for the fall of the U.S.S.R. Centralization simply killed any efficiencies that could be carved out of everything from farming to weapons production. May the Chinese continue to revel in the goodness of state-approved CPU architecture as they try to compete with the rest of the world.

    11. Re:bad idea by mlts · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A backdoor standard would get them an expert medal in footshooting. Eventually some other country would find the backdoor and then be able to spy on all their businesses.

      This is one of the arguments that killed the Clipper Chip -- if Skipjack ever was broken, or the LEAF fields tampered with (which both happened), it would mean a foreign power would have wholesale access to US secrets.

      Another downside is simple -- heterogeneous environments make life easier for the blackhats. If everything used the same architecture, it means that a low level bug that can get code executed in ring 0 (to use Intel's terms) would affect everything from the embedded device, all the way to the supercomputers. Having different architectures means that damage due to a bug similar to the F0 0F bug of yore would be limited and containable.

    12. Re:bad idea by AngryDeuce · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As the summary surmises, a unified architecture could make it easier to build in a common backdoor for spying.

      Given the sheer amount of hacking originating in China, I would think the last thing they'd want to do is apply a homogeneous solution to critical systems. It seems to me like that's just an invitation to hackers world-wide to exploit the shit out of it.

      Maybe they think they're hack-proof or something.

    13. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      He's saying Communist countries are fundamentally dependent on control through surveillance. The fact that Communist countries have historically been more prone to trample on privacy (see post war Germany, among others) is testament to the distinction between Communist and non-Communist. In the US, there is much dissent and controversy and disharmony, in China, it's self-censorship or jail.

      While we're at it, a condemnation of one side of a dichotomy does not imply acclamation for the other, so there is no need to get your feelings hurt that the US is left out in certain times of criticism. No one does it when it's the other way around.

    14. Re:bad idea by wer32r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are only two differences between communism and capitalism:
      1. which small group gets to make the decisions
      2. which small group (same as in #1) is controlling the surveillance.

      In communism, it's government/political leaders. In capitalism, it is the upper corporate echelon.

      In the extreme case, when this "upper corporate echelon" gets powerful enough to pass laws, and challenge the elected government, they effectively become a part of the country's political leadership, and thus we are back to communism.

    15. Re:bad idea by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      because a Communist country is entirely dependent upon controlling its citizens through the use of surveillance

      so, is the US now communist?

      is our surveillance any less than theirs?

      you may not be locked up by what you say, but you can be pretty sure that you are being spied upon just as much, maybe even more.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    16. Re:bad idea by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2

      We may be at the point where those different architectures aren't worth enough to care about either, at least for most consumer facing devices. Whether my speakers use 59 cents in one architecture cpu or 65 cents in another doesn't matter, my cable set top box might use 15 or 20 dollars in a CPU but they'll all do the job and it's not like I'm buying hundreds of these personally.

      For places where ISA's can really matter, high performance servers for example, I don't see these as mattering much as we'd expect, MIPS alpha and power are all basically dead, ARM is competitive with x86 if the new intel android phone in india can be believed, and the UPU which is the presumptive choice will have to be competitive, or they'll have to allow exemptions or other special rules so that a block of ARM cpus can be controlled by a UPU approved CPU.

      This sounds a lot less about spying and a lot more about protectionism and what the north koreans call Juche. Self reliance. The chinese are happy to sell us stuff, but don't ever want to have to buy anything that isn't dug directly out of the ground in return. The xbox 3 and PS4 will be x86, those will be banned, PC's, Mac or Windows, those will be banned or have to port to UPU. I suppose that makes ARM a viable choice since there will be a windows ARM option soon enough, but that might be a good argument against ARM too (from chinas perspective). Chosing UPU would effectively lock every major software and hardware vendor out of the chinese market.

    17. Re:bad idea by Xiaran · · Score: 1

      Next they should choose a single standard programming language... I hear Ada is very popular.

    18. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the FEMA concentration camps that are being activated all across the country makes me just a *little* worried about that.

    19. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "heterogeneous environments make life easier for the blackhats"

      The technological equivalent of the biological statement that lack of diversity makes species an easy prey and victim of disease. Anyone remember the Irish Potato famine or the Great Leap Forward? Government is mental illness. I guess this is GLF 2.0

    20. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Standardize at the cost of having different architectures that are superior in their own ways

      There probably is some room for further commoditizing processors by standardizing the computer architecture.

      In the consumer market for general purpose computing, we're pretty much down to two instruction sets; x86/AMD64 for performance or ARM for power sensitive applications.

      These architectures continue to add advanced features for performance, like vector instructions and transactional memory, but the baseline set of instructions is pretty stable at this point. (Exception: the ARMv8 ISA includes a major redesign for 64-bit computing)

      If they standardize on a simple and boring ISA that doesn't require big bucks in licencing, they should be able to decide on a few CPU designs and manufacture them ridiculously cheaply. They can also inspect the designs to look for backdoors (or include their own)
      Handy for e.g. routers for your national network infrastructure.

    21. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You've just described x86

    22. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the FEMA concentration camps that are being activated all across the country makes me just a *little* worried about that.

      Yeah, me too. Where are those again?

    23. Re:bad idea by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      so, is the US now communist?

      Logic lesson: if all your apples are red, that does not mean that all your red things are apples.

    24. Re:bad idea by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What killed the USSR was that few people wanted to be productive when their efforts would merely enrich the unproductive. Central planning certainly helped, but if people had been willing to work hard for no benefit the USSR might still be around today.

    25. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This massive surveillance would be different from our allegedly free capitalist countries in what way, exactly?

    26. Re:bad idea by smitty97 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I thought we were an autonomous collective

      --
      mod me funny
    27. Re:bad idea by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Uh no... A Communist country would be built upon a Communist economy. Communism is an economic as well as political ideology. Abandon the economic side of the equation and you cease to have a Marxist state. China has not meaningfully been a Communist state since Deng Xiaoping began his radical reforms in the post-Mao era. It could best be described as a Capitalist Technocracy that has turned Chinese Communism into little more than empty flag waving.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    28. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a Communist country

      I thought they were an extension of Wall Street, the US Chamber of Commerce, and the Cato Institute?

    29. Re:bad idea by doublebackslash · · Score: 4, Informative

      As the summary surmises, a unified architecture could make it easier to build in a common backdoor for spying.

      FTFA

      ...a ubiquitous, always-open backdoor that can be used by Chinese intelligence agencies. The Great Firewall of China is fairly easy to circumvent — but what if China built a DNS and IP address blacklist into the hardware itself?

      This is utter and complete nonsense. There is hardly a shread of logic in making this argument.

      It is an instruction set. You know, add register 1 to register 12 and store in register 1. Copy Register 1 to memory location 0xa3546f00. Things like that. In what world could an instruction set and basic outline for the architechure (which is the system built around the core instruction set. Memory interfaces, cache rules, chip to chip protocols, etc etc) be capable of a backdoor?

      Built in blacklist of IP addresses? How does that work? Blacklist an entire subset of the 32 and 128 bit integers? Good luck running the system! I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to try and predict the failure mode of there. Some others later inthe thread are talking about this making it easier for black hats by way of making their code portable. Portable code does make their job easier, but that doesn't make the system built on the ISA identical. It also doesn't make the chips themselves identical. A flaw in one chip or one system built on this ISA does not affect the others. Flaws that are within the spec itself are harder to fix but are no more a risk than any other ISA.

      There isn't a logical way for an ISA to be exploited for the kinds of things people are talking about. Even if they did, say, hide some nonvolitile storage on certain chips and try to identify AES being performed (for example) and store the keys away it would be trivial to obfuscate the AES code so it wasn't recognized. There are a near infinite number of ways to perform an arbitrary transformation on data, some are just used because they are faster and resistant to things like timing attacks.

      To cut this short: anyone making arguments against a standardized ISA by way of invoking security concerns needs to really lay out their argument. I can't concieve of one good path of attack but I think I'm biased against the idea. If someone can provide a good and thought out example I'd be glad to hear it but I suspect that the security angle isn't a valid concern.

      --
      md5sum /boot/vmlinuz
      d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e /boot/vmlinuz
    30. Re:bad idea by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > Maybe they think they're hack-proof or something.

      Almost certainly. It is the logical fallacy at the very heart of Fasism, Communism, Progressives and whole related set of 20th Century *isms. That a small super elite (called different names but always the same idea) can do damned near anything. It killed millions. Reality says "No they can't."

      No, they can't direct every aspect of a whole nation's economy. No, they can't know everything and thus be in a position to tell far larger set of subjects to STFU and let them make all of the decisions and tell everyone else what is a fact, what they should do about it, etc. No, they can't decide who should get what. And to bring it back directly on topic, no they can't design a perfect CPU IA with a perfect backdoor that only they will ever be able to access. But they will believe they can and so they will try. Just like they and their ilk past and present believe in their Five Year Plans, their Genetic Supermen, Eugenics, Lysenkoism, Obamacare, etc. Because if they for a moment doubted their superior ability they would lose their only claim to power.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    31. Re:bad idea by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While I have not the slightest doubt about the Chinese authorities' interests in surveillance, the ISA level seems a deeply strange layer to futz around with in order to further that goal. Are they planning on adding a MOVSCP(Move Word From String to Communist Party) instruction or something?

      It seems that somebody looking to build bugs would be focusing on a mechanism a trifle higher-level: whatever 'TPM-but-don't-call-it-a-TPM-because-NIH-is-serious-business' standard they are plugging away at would be one logical place to look. Any 'National Operating System' type initiative would also be worth a look(though, realistically, retail spying on end user devices is kind of a pain in the ass, and vulnerable to discovery by hacker types, and you can just bug the telcos and ISPs instead, CALEA-or-nastier style, with much less fuss).

      I'd be much more inclined to suspect some combination of quasi-mercantalist desire to avoid paying license fees to western tech outfits(and provide a convenient 'hook' by which foreign outfits who wish to score Chinese contracts can be forced to collaborate with whoever produces the blessed ISA) and a desire to (try) and prevent their government infrastructure being riddled with spots of code rotting on legacy architectures because some contractor who hasn't been in business in a decade had experience with it...

    32. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The decadent foreign ISAs shall be crushed by the one true People's Party. Oh, the horror of having multiple languages, ISAs and political parties, all with the associated differing ways of thinking. The variability of ISAs is clearly a wedge by foreign agents trying to convert the Chinese people to immorally thinking about a multiparty system.

    33. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      don't forget the small matter of:

      3. 100 million dead

    34. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to the people who live there idiot! You look like a fool dumb a$$.

    35. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or as any foray into anal sex will show - just because you have a backdoor for your own use, doesn't mean someone else can't entertain themselves with it.

    36. Re:bad idea by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Maybe and maybe not.
      Look at x86 for example. You can go pretty for down the size and power scale with the Atom and then go up to Super computers all with one ISA.
      Arm goes from very small cpus up to pretty large and their is no reason why the ARM ISA "with 64 bit extensions" couldn't scale up as large.
      MIPS goes very down to very small systems using MIPS16e extensions which are a lot like the ARM Thumb extensions and can support SIMD, and 64bit at the high end. MIPS sounds like a logical choice for them to standardize on.
      If anything X86 has shown that you can make a terrible brain dead ISA work very fast with enough effort and extensions.
      MIPS is probably a better ISA than x86 and with only one ISA then China can put all of it's resources into making it work faster, use less power, and be cheaper than if they spread their efforts over many ISAs.
      As to a common back door for spying? Well maybe but I think that would be more of a fringe benefit than anything for the Gov. I think they see this as a way to leap frog ahead in the CPU race and not depend on the US for tech like CPUs.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    37. Re:bad idea by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      It is a rather curious idea, though I suspect that, in practice, people will end up cheating by throwing 'coprocessors' into the mix...

      Think of, say, virtually all of the media set top box SoCs of the world. Usually ARM or MIPs(nominally); but that is just a weedy little core that draws a few UI elements and does OS housekeeping. The meat is inevitably some DSP, GPU, or video decode unit that may or may not even have a publicly known instruction set beyond the basic 'shove compressed video in like so, obtain frames and audio stream over here'.

      Even the venerable x86 isn't so x86 anymore the moment you start shoving the 3D stuff reasonably seriously, at which point things kick over to a GPU of some flavor that is very much a different beast.

      It also seems unlikely that they'll manage to eliminate the 'Microcontroller lurking somewhere in there to handle a bunch of very low speed GPIO with minimal expenditure of pins on the main CPU' phenomenon. 8051s and PICs and stuff turn up in the oddest places, sometimes visible, sometimes an IP core embedded in some peripheral package. Unless the non-techies have a nigh-religious zeal for one ISA to rule them all, and rules-lawyer the process very tightly, all they'll really insure(above and beyond what the market would have delivered anyway) is that there is only one ISA, rather than 3-ish, running the 'main' OS and passing data between as many bits of hardware speaking all sorts of curious languages as the design happens to require...

    38. Re:bad idea by nigelo · · Score: 1

      No, but they are all commies, though, aren't they? The Red Peril...

      --
      *Still* negative function...
    39. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      >a Communist country is entirely dependent upon controlling its citizens through the use of surveillance.

      Surveillance is not a requirement for communism. Controlling citizens is not a requirement for communism. Sharing resources is the requirement for communism. Surveillance is a quick fix for failed regimes, regardless of political ideology.

      The paranoia is running a little high in this thread, even for Slashdot. Revert back to reason for a moment: given all of the spying mechanisms that exist today on CPUs, Operating Systems and platforms, is it in any way necessary to make it simpler? No. It's not worth it in money. It's cheaper to port the spying mechanisms across the various platforms. This unified CPU architecture is motivated by lots of things. The reduction in porting spy software is probably down at number 100 on the list. It's probably just a corporation selling the government a pipe dream, just like they do here in the U.S.

    40. Re:bad idea by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the spying and censorship is purely for the purpose of keeping The Party in power, whatever the cost to the people.

      You just described the domestic policies of the top 8 economic powers of the world. Oppression = good business. Also, it strikes me as amusing that the Chinese have erected their great firewall and surveillance technology by copying already-existing technology from the United States. Now that the Chinese are ramping up their industrial espionage and surveillance ... perhaps in response to seeing what happened to Iran with Stuxnet ... it's no surprise they're looking to harden their infrastructure.

      We're trying to do it here as well; But only for certain businesses and government entities. Private citizens are still left to hang.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    41. Re:bad idea by jovius · · Score: 2

      True. China has been on an ultra-capitalistic path since the 80s. China is the prime example of a corporative and capitalistic state. China is being led like a corporation and the leadership is unified with the vision of prosperity. The party members are the richest people of the country.

    42. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot - in both systems, control is dispelled by #3 the Voters, but they are not permitted by one of the systems.

    43. Re:bad idea by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

      RE:...The paper cited real science...
      [citation needed]

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    44. Re:bad idea by networkBoy · · Score: 2

      Maybe they think they're hack-proof or something.

      Quite likely. Many people have invented systems they, themselves can not hack. This is a fairly common hubris in the security industry outside of the core people.
      vendor - use our product, it's invincible
      customer - [adjusts foil hat] I don't know, I think the NSA might have a back door
      vendor - you're just paranoid
      Schnier - well he's come to the right conclusion, if only by accident. Your system has this bit here that's totally exploitable with a paperclip and duct tape, here's McGuyver to demonstrate
      Chuck Norris - [roundhouse] now it's *all* broken
      vendor - [waving arms] pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
      anon - [replaces vendor splash screen with manifesto] heh
      vendor - they're hacking us!!! Oh noes!!
      world - faith lost, no one buys product
      Schnier - "told ya so"

      or something like that.
      Also I am asserting (C) on the preceding play/skit including choreography and language 2012, by networkBoy.
      And finally, I hereby release the aforementioned (C) into the public domain.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    45. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For those that aren't total retards, a traversable wormhole has at least two major theoretical problems. For one, it's theorized that you would need something with negative mass to keep it open. Current science tells us that gravity is different from the other fundamental forces in that you can't have a negative amount of it (whereas negative electrical charge is no big deal). The other theoretical problem is that, spacetime being what it is, a wormhole would be able to connect arbitrary points in time as well as space. So far the universe seems to have a hard-on for causality (yes, even in that recent article about effects preceding causes). Time travel is not consistent with causality. A universe without causality is not consistent with anything: physicists doubt we could even reason about such a universe.

      If you have a solution to either problem, work on your Nobel acceptance speech. You don't even have to engineer it, just solve the theoretical problems. Until then, welcome to Crankville, population: you.

    46. Re:bad idea by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Post a link to paper the US Air Force wrote on the requirements and potential paths toward researching macro-scale traversable wormhole technology, and get ignored.

      The Star Trek fan site is ---> thataway.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    47. Re:bad idea by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

      "This is probably among the worst ideas I've ever heard. They're basically saying "Standardize at the cost of having different architectures that are superior in their own ways", which is just absurd."

      What?! The test:

      "This ISA would have to be used for any projects backed with government money — which, in a communist country such as China, is a fairly long list of public and private enterprises and institutions, including China Mobile, the largest wireless carrier in the world."

      Sounds like unconditional support to a Windows/Apple hegemony, which may not always be a good thing.

      Still, I get your point. But I am not convinced of the critique...

    48. Re:bad idea by IwantToKeepAnon · · Score: 1

      This is probably among the worst ideas I've ever heard. They're basically saying "Standardize at the cost of having different architectures that are superior in their own ways", which is just absurd.

      This one might be a worse idea? Bad idea jeans, maybe the Chinese were wearing them when they came up with this idea?

      --
      "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -- Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
    49. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy Grail.. LOL

    50. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah! in order to make what the article says, it is way easyer and cheaper to pass a law to make spying into anyone's computer legal (like in the "free" world) ... (How is that the chinese did not think about that?) and would be absoutely architecture-independent. They can call it CHISPA (Ch for China, you know).

    51. Re:bad idea by rs79 · · Score: 1

      Agreed 100%. I'd use a pdp-11 instruction set (because nothing since was ever as clever) and lots of provisions for various coprocessors, some tbd.

      --
      Need Mercedes parts ?
    52. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're confusing communism with Marxism. Marx did not invent communism.

    53. Re:bad idea by Heretic2 · · Score: 2

      Another downside is simple -- heterogeneous environments make life easier for the blackhats. If everything used the same architecture, it means that a low level bug that can get code executed in ring 0 (to use Intel's terms) would affect everything from the embedded device, all the way to the supercomputers. Having different architectures means that damage due to a bug similar to the F0 0F bug of yore would be limited and containable.

      I think you mean homogenous environments.

    54. Re:bad idea by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, if I had to define Chinese current ideology in as few words as possible, I think "national socialist" (yes, Nazi) would be closest. They're not rabid about racial superiority theories like Hitler was, and nowhere near as bloodthirsty or warmongering, but if you look at their internal policies themselves, they are remarkably similar in spirit.

      Regulated capitalist economy with protectionist measures for big business, who in turn work in the interests of the state and not just themselves? check. Interests of the state over those of individual? check. Conservative attitude towards morality? check. A single artificially defined "race" that is promoted over others? check.

    55. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      anyone making arguments against a standardized ISA by way of invoking security concerns needs to really lay out their argument

      That's a fair point, and an interesting question to consider. What kind of backdoors could be put into a CPU?

      Ok, so first, our backdoors will not be part of the documented ISA, they will be "hidden features" in our implementation.

      Now as you point out, this is very low-level stuff. (Unlike, for instance, a network interface, which can communicate with the network autonomously and only needs to parse a few protocols.)
      The processor can't by itself intelligently operate on the programs that run on it; this is not a place to put an ECHELON-type system.

      On the other hand, we could allow Stuxnet-type targeted attacks, or a wide-scale DoS attack:

      Pick any random 128-bit number. Almost certainly, a computer will not encounter that number in it's natural life-time. This could be our trigger. Optionally, we could follow it by a public-key signature.

      How is the trigger read? Well, to quote you, "There are a near infinite number of ways to perform an arbitrary transformation on data".
      But let's take a specific transformation on data. Like copying a string. There will probably be just one or two idiomatic methods to do this, with small variations like null-terminated or length-terminated. Cover at least the methods used in our standard library.

      What does the trigger do? For a DoS-attack, start a counter, and blow a fuse after a week or so.
      For a targeted attack, jump to the code following the trigger.

      So what have we gained? Our CPU doesn't have magical terrorist-reporting powers. We haven't "built a DNS and IP address blacklist into the hardware itself".
      But we can very easily do a targeted attack against any machine with our CPU in it, if we know just a little bit about the software used. Even if the software itself is completely secure and bug-free. All we need to do is look at stuff like; "if you send an IP packet to a machine running this OS, it will be stored in memory like this.... If you open an email using this client, the contents will be copied like this."

    56. Re:bad idea by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      While we're at it, a condemnation of one side of a dichotomy does not imply acclamation for the other

      Some people need this burned into their retinas so that they never, ever are allowed to let it slip from their memory. Then again, /. comments as we now know them would collapse upon themselves if this were the case, since so many arguments are posted based on the assumption that one is implicitly supporting issue X when they post regarding a problem they see in issue Y.

    57. Re:bad idea by marnues · · Score: 1

      How is this a new thing in the 20th century? Even America is ran by a few super-elites. So they prefer economic exploitation to civil war. That's thousands of years of super-elite evolution that not all super-elites in the world have mastered. For instance, we have 4 year plans rather than 5 year plans. Ours are codified by law rather than specific initiatives of the super-elites.

      Why play this as an us vs them? I'm getting tired of Straussian revisionism.

    58. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easy. If one of operands to specific instruction is equal to some obscure magic constant, then CPU kills itself. Enough to take down entire network by some broadcast packet.

      You know why I know that? I don't recall what exactly it was, but my country once bought SDH radiolines from USA. When inspected, our engineers found a circuit that burned output amplifier on the receipt of specific sequence, which could be sent from satellite.

    59. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Maybe they think they're hack-proof or something.

      Almost certainly. It is the logical fallacy at the very heart of Fasism, Communism, Progressives and whole related set of 20th Century *isms.

      You're a fuckwit. This drivel isn't worth giving a serious response to.

    60. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, in this case it's the Yellow Peril combined with The East Is Red for a sort or orangey-pink.

    61. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      no you've both missed the point:

      In capitalism, man exploits man. In socialism it's the other way around.

    62. Re:bad idea by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Yep, the way itis stated, it just don't make any sense.

      They are probably doing that because of either: dumb nationalism (our way is the true way), protectionism, or making life better for their tech users (this architecture is better, use it - or, in other words, being honest).

      All that, with the obvious side effect that China will be imune to foreign malware, and the world will be imune to China's malware.

    63. Re:bad idea by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      is our surveillance any less than theirs?

      Yes, your surveilance is less than theirs. Any other hyperbolic question with an obvious answer?

    64. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Skipjack is a supported cipher on all Blackberry phones. BlackBerry, your corporate BES(if applicable), or the carrier can instruct your handset to switch Ciphers at will.

      Everyone else - your carrier can reflash your phone(any phone) or even just the baseband modem with OTA updates.

      We are already pwned.

    65. Re:bad idea by cavreader · · Score: 1

      China doesn't invent technology they just "appropriate" it from others to cut down on the R&D expenses. It's not a bad approach if you can get away with it. And they are certainly not communists, the ruling party runs the country as as a corporation. A corporation that doesn't have to worry about silly monopolist practices or workers rights.

    66. Re:bad idea by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      He certainly invented the modern notion of Communism. Whatever communal socialism might have existed before Marx's time, none of it could be said to have influenced Chinese Communists. They very much believed themselves the heirs of Marx, to the point that after the breakdown of relations between the USSR and the PRC, China frequently claimed that the USSR had veered from the true Marxist-Leninist path. The Chinese Communist most assuredly asserted that they were Marxist in origin.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    67. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Classic cognitive dissonance on the part of a Marxist.

      "Communism is great!"

      when shown an actual example of communism's failure, "That's not *real* communism."

      China is, of course, a neo-conservative capitalist country run by the Christian right.

    68. Re:bad idea by reiserifick · · Score: 1

      Communism has nothing to do with the economy. Communism is a political system, not a financial system.

    69. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is this bullshit that I'm reading in this article about "Communist" countries. Are you some retard offspring off McCarthy? Go and spend six months in Shanghai and find out how capitalism works, and find out how free you can be on a day-to-day basis compared to living in a police state like the USA.

    70. Re:bad idea by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Before you repeat that, I recommend you read the Communist Manifesto.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    71. Re:bad idea by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      The Communist Manifesto. Authored by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    72. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it has a back door you do anything to break that no matter how many people you have to bribe, blackmail or assassinate. You spend a billion to get the secret of that back door.

      It would be in their best interest to not do that.

    73. Re:bad idea by mlts · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected.

    74. Re:bad idea by giorgist · · Score: 1

      What if you have a method to make your process superuser no matter what ?

      "Sudo, make me a sandwich", here we come ...

    75. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China pays about as much attention to Marx and Engels as the US pays to Jefferson and Madison.

    76. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was just going to ask: 'And what do you think we have in america with 98 percent of personal computers running the Intel Architecture'?

      Nevermind the fact that I'd wager a good deal of money on the feds or nsa having backdoors already in the baseband firmware for the majority of cell phones out there and you can pretty much already assume none of your data is secure.

    77. Re:bad idea by galanom · · Score: 1

      ... Communist country is entirely dependent upon controlling its citizens through the use of surveillance....

      Geez, then the USA should be communist?

      Should we call it USSA then? It could be cool!

    78. Re:bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is utter and complete nonsense. There is hardly a shread of logic in making this argument.

      It is an instruction set. You know, add register 1 to register 12 and store in register 1. Copy Register 1 to memory location 0xa3546f00. Things like that. In what world could an instruction set and basic outline for the architechure (which is the system built around the core instruction set. Memory interfaces, cache rules, chip to chip protocols, etc etc) be capable of a backdoor?

      Built in blacklist of IP addresses? How does that work? Blacklist an entire subset of the 32 and 128 bit integers? Good luck running the system! I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to try and predict the failure mode of there. Some others later inthe thread are talking about this making it easier for black hats by way of making their code portable. Portable code does make their job easier, but that doesn't make the system built on the ISA identical. It also doesn't make the chips themselves identical. A flaw in one chip or one system built on this ISA does not affect the others. Flaws that are within the spec itself are harder to fix but are no more a risk than any other ISA.

      There isn't a logical way for an ISA to be exploited for the kinds of things people are talking about. Even if they did, say, hide some nonvolitile storage on certain chips and try to identify AES being performed (for example) and store the keys away it would be trivial to obfuscate the AES code so it wasn't recognized. There are a near infinite number of ways to perform an arbitrary transformation on data, some are just used because they are faster and resistant to things like timing attacks.

      Look up the Trusted Platform Module. US Business has already invented the necessary technology.

      Here's how you do it:
      1) Per computer Private key burned into CPU
      2) A bunch of authorised public keys are signed with the computer's private key and burned to an EEPROM [Updatable over time]
      3) All code is realtime encrypted/decrypted with a per-process session key as it enters and leaves the CPU [prevents live tampering with the RAM and programs gaining access to other program's data, eg. 128bit register used with AES-128 which the OS changes the value of when swapping processes]
      4) Only software signed with one of the keys on the list is allowed to run when the system powers up [This means you must run the included unmodified BIOS or the system will fail to POST, this prevents any unsigned software from running unless the BIOS chooses to load it]

      This ensures that the BIOS, bootloader, hypervisor and Operating System are all certified as "censorship ready", the OS (or hypervisor if you want to host an existing OS without modifying it) can allow unsigned code to run in a sandbox on top of it to preserve functionality but it isn't hard to see how having all the drivers and network stack sniffing for forbidden things whilst being strongly tamper resistance is rather hard to get around (you can have block lists, real-time stream filtering, whatever you can dream up).

      You can go one step further and have the routers on the network use attestation to check that your computer is running the secured system. This is extremely difficult to bluff as you need to generate a Response based on the key in the CPU and the CPU instruction that accesses the key and generates the response will only work when authorised software is running [control register, unset the bit and the instructions are disabled], if you trick the CPU into running a censorship-free system then you lose access to the key data [outside of an electron microscope, of course] you need in order to perform the attestation so the router won't accept your packets.

    79. Re:bad idea by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Not forgetting that the second comment I see says that the Chinese are developing this technology to spy on their own citizens. That was most likely posted by someone in the USA who doesn't get the -----/--------- in their comment and truly believes what they wrote.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    80. Re:bad idea by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Calling someone who the US government propagandises against a Nazi is a sure fire way of getting a +5 insightful on the new /.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    81. Re:bad idea by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      You make me feel all nostalgic. If I hadn't got so old that I am now unable to move my 11/23 out of the garage I would take a trip down memory lane.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    82. Re:bad idea by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Why don't you fuck off back to 4chan you cunt.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    83. Re:bad idea by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Everywhere. get with the program.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    84. Re:bad idea by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I don't care about US government propaganda - I'm not an American. I laid out my case point by point. Do you have any specific objections to those points? then state them, and we can discuss that.

    85. Re:bad idea by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Not a single objection just an observation on modding. I am not attacking you personally or your points.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
  2. my question is by meow27 · · Score: 1

    will people go out of their way to develop applications for this arch assuming they are already using x86_64/ARM/SPARC/etc ?

    1. Re:my question is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are there 2 billion consumers in the marketplace who will purchase goods and services related to that arch?

      Alternatively: Does a bear shit in the woods?

    2. Re:my question is by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      My guess is that there will be a proprietary emulation layer developed so that existing software can be run. As horribly inefficient as this is, I would think that this would be the way to solve the problem of applications and libraries that are written for x86, X86_64, ARM, and the others.

    3. Re:my question is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My take: There are 2 billion consumers that won't be able to use cracked serial numbers for my company's software anymore... and tie up our support lines with stupid questions in horribad Engrish... WIN/WIN!

    4. Re:my question is by markatto · · Score: 1

      Honestly, architecture doesn't matter all that much as long as you have your OS kernel and compiler(s) ported. MIPS, Alpha, ARM, and Power all run pretty much any open source software you could wish for, although I can't speak to UPU as I've never heard of it.

    5. Re:my question is by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      It isn't just inefficiencies like a VM layer I don't think, some things baked into a cheap that can run in a few cycles could take 10's of instructions to run on a different architecture using the basic instructions. At some point inefficient becomes unusable. It is the same thing with government programs: if the government is rationing towelette paper and start doing a bad job people switch from the government to the black market. If something doesn't meet your needs (in the sense of meeting your minimum requirements) it won't meet your needs (in the sense of being used at all).

    6. Re:my question is by tgd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      China has approximately 400 million people in its middle class, and growing.

      Yes, people will develop applications for it.

    7. Re:my question is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that all falls down because the vast majority are using pirated Windows XP. Despite what some loons think, Red Flag Linux usage is nearly nonexistent.

    8. Re:my question is by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Unless the next windows were ported to this architecture that would change. I am betting even China does not intend this for their domestic consumer home computers.

    9. Re:my question is by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 2

      Their Loongson 3 MIPS-clone already has x86 hardware-emulation built into the silicon.

    10. Re:my question is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The answer to #1 is probably "no." A vast majority of your IP theft originates from China, and you can bet that won't wane simply because they are moving to another architecture. Chinese companies will rip off anything and everything, then resell it at a drastically reduced cost, disappearing into the mist when the support requests start coming in.

      This "clean slate" approach will actually be a boon for legitimate developers in that officially-sanctioned hardware will be unable to run previously-cracked programs... unless, of course, China simply adopts (read: steals) some existing architecture as its own IP and proceeds as such.

    11. Re:my question is by robthebloke · · Score: 5, Informative
    12. Re:my question is by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Why does Russia support passenger jet construction when airbus and boeing are on sale?
      China knows an internal CPU/GPU foundation is a useful skill to have and expand on - think of some trade war or blockage or generational backdoor..or US political issues...
      This gives China options, lets them build internal quality towards exports under their own brands at their own price in their own currency.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    13. Re:my question is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I lived my first 26 years in China, and have never met a single, clean middle class citizen. How strange...

    14. Re:my question is by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      I think this is overwhelmingly likely.
      I noticed x86 wasn't on the list in the summary, but once they realize the sheer cost involved in supporting all the legacy applications that now won't work on another arch (but that the country runs on), they will either use an x86 derivative, or nerf their laws to allow (home grown) || (x86) to use government money.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    15. Re:my question is by snadrus · · Score: 1

      Thank you. It looks like ARM should worry. I wouldn't scale to 100s of cores as the article says, but to more caches that are perhaps addressable.

      --
      Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
    16. Re:my question is by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      more importantly, will Microsoft go out of their way and build an OS that works on this architecture?

      Chances are there will be a GCC update within weeks and recompiled Linux a month after that.

    17. Re:my question is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SAVE THE DAY!

    18. Re:my question is by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 1

      once they realize the sheer cost involved in supporting all the legacy applications that now won't work on another arch (but that the country runs on), they will either use an x86 derivative

      "legacy apps"? Like what? WoW? SWTOR? Or are we talking things like Facebook, Twitter and Pinterest? Face it, there are no "killer apps" anymore -- and if there are any niche areas that don't have open-source or otherwise freely-available software, I'm sure they can code up their own solutions. Which will likely start by reverse-engineering the current best-of-breed solutions and porting them (or at least their algorithms) to their new architecture.

      Frankly, I'm hoping that without all the entrenched legacy apps to support, they'll be able to come up with a superior architecture that won't be doomed to failure because it's not x86 compatible.

      --
      Just junk food for thought...
    19. Re:my question is by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      I was thinking Windows XP/7 and Photoshop actually.
      As soon as you switch architecture then *everything* is legacy, including the OS. I doubt that Microsoft will be so kind as to port it for them....

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  3. Those by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Always open backdoors work both ways... once discovered.

    1. Re:Those by moderatorrater · · Score: 1

      Whatever. This whole "hacking" threat is overblown. When has any major company or corporation been hit by a serious hack? That's why I fully support the government taking over the internet to stop piracy!

    2. Re:Those by higuita · · Score: 1

      yep, you are right, RSA isnt a major company, that dont have as its clients most of the other majors companies and governments... stolen RSA IDs couldnt be used to acces to important information...

      not, EMC wasnt hacked, and the source for vmware stolen... so you are safe in thousand of companies and corporation that use ESX in trust that their platform is safe and trusted...

      and dont forget you are always save with the encryption, certificates are safe, no one can issue rogue certificates and decrypt your data

      --
      Higuita
  4. What if? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then you will very quickly see the exact same monitoring schemes pop up in Western designs.

  5. Is it actually their design? by Sparticus789 · · Score: 1

    Will this be their own actual proprietary design, or are they just going to steal (like they usually do) some American company's design and sell it as their own? I predict there to be a scratched-off Intel logo at the bottom right corner of their schematics.

    --
    sudo make me a sandwich
    1. Re:Is it actually their design? by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Will this be their own actual proprietary design, or are they just going to steal (like they usually do) some American company's design and sell it as their own?

      Hmmm...you're in for a surprise.

      Which architecture?

      MIPS in Loongson and Ingeniq, covering all from smartphone to supercomputer; then 'Shenwei' Alpha, mostly for military-linked workstation, servers, supercomputers and such; 'Fengtian' SPARC in the same fields as Alpha; Icube UPU integrated CPU-GPU for mobile and microserver markets, and over a dozen ARM licensees.

      If you read further, you'll see all of them are licensed... except for the iCube UPU, which is created by China.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  6. Government money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If certain people are to be believed, we are all living on government money even here in the USA. Some people and corporations receive explicit money from the government (welfare, subsidies, bail-outs) — that's easy, but they are still a minority (despite the government's best efforts to expand the "assistance" programs). But even those, who do not receive foodstamps, can still be considered being government sponsored, because the government is not taxing them as much as they could've been...

    For example: "Oil companies got tax-breaks and therefore must do ...." Or: "The rich got their taxes lowered, and so they must do ...."

    1. Re:Government money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If certain people are to be believed, we are all living on government money even here in the USA.

      What's even funnier, it seems that you are living on the Chinese government money (at least until you pay back the bonds)

  7. You mean by ihatewinXP · · Score: 1, Interesting

    "What if China goes the DIY route and makes its own ISA or microarchitecture with silicon-level censorship and monitoring, or an always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies?"

    Then they will have yet again copied the West's products and then rebranded the designs for their own use. As they have been doing for some time now..... China knows for a fact that the US is using backdoors in technology for warfare (see: Iran) and to overthrow governments (see: Arab Spring) - and is not going to long term put itself at risk by using these American technologies that invite 'revolutions of the people' (see: coups).

    --
    ---- The real Slashdot is still here. You just have to browse at -1 to read the comments.
    1. Re:You mean by Microlith · · Score: 2

      Yup, because they can't risk having the Big Bad US Government overthrow the People's Republic. The Chinese people would never (dare) resist or oppose their benevolent, self-sacrificing government.

      Also, do you know of any specific backdoors, or are you just assuming that security holes are deliberate backdoors?

    2. Re:You mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the exception or regime change in Iran, can you tell me how "overthrowing governments" via the Arab Spring is something the US is shepherding along via backdoors in technology? These uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt etc are removing relatively friendly (to the US in the grand scheme of things) governments and putting harder line islamists in power.

    3. Re:You mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Arab Spring: So Twitter is now a US government backdoor? Apparently teenage girls and annoying celebrities are now ninja NSA agents!

      And Stuxnet, which was a virus installed via sneakernet specially designed to mess with Iran's centerfuges is now a backdoor that is installed on every computer in the west?
      Somebody's tinfoil hat is on just a little bit too tight. Sorry, but the X-Files ended 10 years ago.

    4. Re:You mean by Xibby · · Score: 2

      Someone, somewhere, somehow will offer a sufficient bribe to gain access to those backdoors.

      Sounds like a great idea China, go for it!

      --
      I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
    5. Re:You mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Arab Spring: So Twitter is now a US government backdoor? Apparently teenage girls and annoying celebrities are now ninja NSA agents!

      That's just what THEY want you to think!!!!

    6. Re:You mean by poity · · Score: 1

      I don't know how you can say the Arab Spring is a machination of the US government when it has been more harmful to US influence in the region than it has been beneficial. Why would the US overthrow Mubarak when he was both capable and often agreeable to much of US ME policy? In fact, I'd say the US is opposed to the Arab Spring based on its continued aid to Yemen/Saudi Arabia/Bahrain. Tunisia and Egypt merely got too hot too fast, and the State Dept couldn't touch them without backlash.

      And how can you use the word "coup" for a movement of popular dissent? How hateful of the US and lacking in compassion must you be to dismiss the legitimate concerns of those dissenters just because you believe the US may be simultaneously opposed to those governments? Does a US alignment with a popular rebellion immediately poison that rebellion? Do you think so little of those people?

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    7. Re:You mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Each time I go to China, I'm amazed at the criticism and vitriol hurled at the government and communism. During conversations in public places. Makes me uncomfortable (kind of like visiting a friend's house and seeing a family fight). I've heard worse about the US government, but one set of jokes stand out. Seems that some Chinese are now joking that they'd welcome a US military invasion. From their tone, I can tell they are joking and just using hyperbole to show their frustration. Maybe they joke that way because they really don't dare oppose their government, but would be happy if someone else did. But I can't help but think WTF!

    8. Re:You mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can you ignore the fact that Egypt threw out the organizations (US funded) that started the popular movement and -charged- the American citizens with crimes against the state. Even went to Interpol last week trying to get them arrested.

      Try reading more than CNN.

    9. Re:You mean by poity · · Score: 1

      Egypt did that? Surely you mean the Egypt that is comprised of the military council which is currently desperate to shed itself of public focus and criticism? (not to imply that I favor their more radical opposition*)
      How do you tell others to not trust a single source when your claim is premised on a single source?

      *pitiful that I have to say these things, but apparently people read too far between the lines on /.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    10. Re:You mean by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      And surprisingly the US may be learning its lesson about meddling...
      We've been fairly nice/pleasant to the new ruling party in Egypt.

      Not to say we don't have a ways to go, but you got to start somewhere...
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    11. Re:You mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly!

      Also we are going into Uganda strictly for Kony and by the will of the people. We had nothing to do with the Libyan or Syrian uprisings and only at reluctance are we engaging them militarily. Also we didnt try to overthrow Iran and invaded Iraq on humanitarian grounds.

      And I can come up with lots of sources for these! You tell em

    12. Re:You mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes I know specifically of 3 letter agency backdoors in consumer hardware and am going to espouse them openly on Slashdot...... Because I want nothing more than to go to jail in order to win an argument.

      Sorry, but that doesn't invalidate the point. China has openly said why they are not allowing Twitter and Facebook in: the US has been using them to incite unrest. I cant be bothered but search iran, twitter, china daily - and youll find some of their official English response.

    13. Re:You mean by Microlith · · Score: 1

      Yes I know specifically of 3 letter agency backdoors in consumer hardware and am going to espouse them openly on Slashdot...... Because I want nothing more than to go to jail in order to win an argument.

      The funny thing about this statement is that it's non-falsifiable, so at best it should be ignored.

      Sorry, but that doesn't invalidate the point.

      And empty, unprovable statements don't support yours.

      China has openly said why they are not allowing Twitter and Facebook in: the US has been using them to incite unrest.

      Or the CCP is afraid that users will communicate ideas they don't approve of, which they can't on the tightly controlled internal services. That "the US has been using them to incite unrest" is just making up excuses.

      I cant be bothered but search iran, twitter, china daily - and youll find some of their official English response.

      Their "official" responses mean nothing, quite frankly. Unless you're, you know, stumping on their behalf.

    14. Re:You mean by gorzek · · Score: 1

      It's funny how governments facing domestic unrest always claim it's being fomented by outsiders. Well, except in the US. We seem happy to take responsibility for our own unrest.

    15. Re:You mean by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 1

      Somebody's tinfoil hat is on just a little bit too tight.

      Or maybe they forgot to wear it shiny side out!

      Sorry, but the X-Files ended 10 years ago.

      Because they got too close to something! You notice how you almost never see re-runs? It's because they don't want to encourage skeptical thinking! We of the Society to Win Intellectual Freedom Through Keeping Ideas Circulating Knowledgeably (S.W.I.F.T.K.I.C.K.) are currently waging a war of intensity against the networks to get these shows back on the air!

      --
      Just junk food for thought...
  8. Well than everyone can listen into the Chinese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because other country's spy agencies could crack the backdoor, and then see what all these government contract agencies and companies are doing.

  9. IF? by djdbass · · Score: 1

    What do you mean "if China ... makes its own ISA or microarchitecture with silicon-level censorship and monitoring, or an always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies?" I would expect that is their true motivation here. Any other reasons given are part of the cover.

  10. Chinese BAD, western GOOD... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Or a NSA-CIA-MI5-KGB backdoor-free architecture...

  11. Dragonsomething? by Jaysyn · · Score: 2

    Didn't they try this like a decade ago with knock-off 586 chips?

    "always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies"

    Our spooks would probably love that. It wouldn't stay Chinese-only for very long.

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
    1. Re:Dragonsomething? by tgetzoya · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson It's MIPS based, so maybe they'll move over to an ARM architecture? Or change enough of some ISA to not need a license.

  12. DIY or copying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Considering the widespread stealing from the chinese government on western high tech company I just wonder how much of this is "do-it-yourself" and how much is "copying other IP and customize it for your own". I mean, software has been hacked in a similar fashion, why not hardware design?

  13. One Lock for a Million Gates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...thousands of hackers have boners right now

  14. lol creating something on their own? by nhat11 · · Score: 1

    Yeah and in the end it will just be a copy of a copy of something. In all seriousness, it would be interesting if they created something new but to mature that technology will takes years, possibily decades.... and by that time everything else would have already advance... China you're so backwards sometimes!

    1. Re:lol creating something on their own? by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 1

      Twenty years ago we were all using x86 CPUs, whereas today we're all using...what was it again? Something different, because we've advanced so much....right?

      --
      Just junk food for thought...
    2. Re:lol creating something on their own? by ivrogne · · Score: 1

      This sort of arrogance is the main reason why the US is in such a bad shape right now.

  15. What, exactly, could they do in silicon? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Seriously. This is architecture stuff. You can't just write a backdoor into a chip that easily. You can't write censorship in, because there would be no way to update the censorlist. The most you could do is provide a code injection backdoor (If you see byte sequence xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, jump to the following byte), but with no way to disable it they would just weaken their own defence when it inevitably leaked.

    1. Re:What, exactly, could they do in silicon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just from the top of my head:
      They could include device/code authentication on-chip --> no more anonymity + only run approved, signed software
      If hardlinked to specific NIC --> govt owns your device, no more privacy.

    2. Re:What, exactly, could they do in silicon? by Microlith · · Score: 1

      They could include device/code authentication on-chip --> no more anonymity + only run approved, signed software

      Communists nothing, Microsoft and Apple both want this as well.

    3. Re:What, exactly, could they do in silicon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This sounds exactly like two of the criteria what the Canadian government is proposing in bill C-30. Maybe China is developing this for sale in the Canadian market, as well?

    4. Re:What, exactly, could they do in silicon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither of them make CPUs, so...

    5. Re:What, exactly, could they do in silicon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ARM and x86 cores already have this. Every mobile phone and cable/dsl modem has it too.

    6. Re:What, exactly, could they do in silicon? by Microlith · · Score: 1

      But nonetheless they want this.

      Apple can create their own logic block and included it in their ARM chips. Microsoft could demand the same for ARM devices running Windows (they're pretty fucking close to that already,) the only reason they don't on x86 is because they would be easily targeted for an antitrust suit.

    7. Re:What, exactly, could they do in silicon? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      No, Microsoft could have simply bought the Alpha years ago if it really wanted it. Same for Apple - when Freescale showed its lack of interest in PPC, they could have acquired that unit, or even owned it via Palo Alto Semi, instead of going the ARM route.

    8. Re:What, exactly, could they do in silicon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there is any silicon-based backdoor, it probably uses the microcode update mechanism. Absolutely nothing to be found in hardware, and intel and AMD based microcode updates are encrypted, so by default there is no way to tell whether you are getting legitimate microcode or code that has a backdoor. You would also only require 2 rsa? based keys and you have access to >85% of computers. TADA!

      Remember the NSA key found in Windows XP as well... (Although this is quite likely just due to cryptographic requirements since the NSA desires to add its own algorithms into windows/etc).

    9. Re:What, exactly, could they do in silicon? by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It would be difficult to design an ISA with a back door, surely that would have to be an implementation-specific effort. Of course, if they government also required projects to use chips from "approved" suppliers then they could make this happen, but it probably wouldn't be an architecture-level artifact.

      --
      Just junk food for thought...
  16. Just like everyone uses "Ada", now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm not so sure I'd be all that concerned.

    I recall back in the 80's how the DoD was mandating all programming be done in 'Ada'.

    How'd that work out?

    1. Re:Just like everyone uses "Ada", now by Megane · · Score: 0

      It caused the first European launch of Ariane 5 to fail. I guess that could be considered a success from an American point of view.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    2. Re:Just like everyone uses "Ada", now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I hope you are kidding. Ariane 5 didn't fail because it was written in Ada. It failed because they reused Ariane 4 code and didn't check if that software was appropriate and correct for the Ariane 5. See http://www.di.unito.it/~damiani/ariane5rep.html for the full failure technical report.

  17. More Paranoia Stoking & Misdirection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What if China makes its own ... microarchitecture with silicon-level censorship and monitoring, or an always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies?

    Groan. More of the endless paranoia stoking and misdirection.

    If that were to be so, they might have beaten the US or Britain or Israel or Iran or Mars to the punch.

    People need to wake the hell up and stop swallowing the latest misdirection efforts.

    The "Enter Name of Latest Enemy to Fear Monger Over" are not the sole enemies of "freedom".

    They are just the hand the magicians want you to watch.

    Trust no-one, especially those who stand to gain financially.

  18. Monitoring by the_pace · · Score: 0

    It is very curious to see the every foray by Chinese government become self-reliant on technology being portrayed as their desire for more surveillance. But if you look historically, China has actually been moving toward more openness while US and other Western countries are becoming more and more closed societies. Also after the passing of CISPA in the US House of Representatives recently, it can not even be argued that US government does not wish it had the kind of surveillance this article is suggesting.

    Also please take look at IxMaps to see how the Internet traffic is being monitored by intelligence agencies.

  19. ARM? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    last time someone tried to make a cpu compatible with ARM they were squashed with patents bought and killed, but of course they were a small company

  20. 0x10c by Megane · · Score: 5, Funny

    I hear they're hiring Notch to develop the new CPU architecture.

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  21. the straw on the other's eye... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article last two paragraphs are only political propaganga and does not add any technical information.
    who wrote that? an american political "komisariat"?
    And also: really you are sure now your's processors are free of all state vigilance?

  22. Cheap ISA/CPU = No Innovation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I have a concern about this entirely unrelated to questions of censorship, spying, industrial espionage and the like. Somebody please enlighten me if I am wrong.

    If China develops its own general-purpose ISA and manages to put any serious market share behind it, it could eventually make its way to non-Chinese markets. If this happens, it seems likely that it will significantly undercut Intel/AMD prices possibly at comparable performance levels initially. The pattern exists in virtually ever other sector wherein Chinese input to a market undercuts and eventually eliminates competition based on price alone and despite other virtues of the product. The competitors eventually wither because they cannot manufacture the product at a cost acceptable to the price-fixated consumer.

    Now when I can no longer buy a decent shower caddy because the *only* ones that are sold outside extremely highly priced specialty shops are made with substandard parts and labor from China, that's too bad. I'm stuck buying a new one every year or so after the last one breaks. It's a whole different world with CPUs and ISAs. Say what you like about the level of competition in the United States: CPU progress marches onward each year, new foundries are built, technologies shrink, transistor counts go up, and work per clock cycle increases. If comparable early Chinese entries undercut their American competition and that competition dies, it seems very unlikely to me that price-conscientious Chinese firms will be as concerned about continuing the pace of innovation. Progress in the CPU sector could come to a jarring, extremely unfortunate, hard-to-reverse halt.

    Thoughts?

  23. Can you say "Ada"? by pivot_enabled · · Score: 1

    This is brilliant! China should absolutely pursue this line of thinking in all area. I am projecting a strong recovery in the US labor market....

  24. Are you sure? by goffster · · Score: 1

    Back when we had all sorts of different screws and nuts and bolts with no standardization,
    there was always some reason why one particular brand was superior in one way.

    But if they never standardized, we would likely now be paying $5/screw
    instead of 5 cents/screw.

    1. Re:Are you sure? by AngryDeuce · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What are you talking about? There are literally dozens (maybe hundreds) of different types of screws alone, engineered vastly different from one another to be best at their application. Wood screws are much different from sheet metal screws which are much different from concrete screws, phillips-head versus flat-head versus torx versus proprietary heads...

      Everything from the length of the screw, the spacing of the threading, whether it's self-tapping or not...they're all engineered to be best at a particular application. Once you extend the set to include fasteners of any type, there are probably a million different types, be it mechanical, chemical, magnetic...

      Try drilling a flat-head sheet metal screw into concrete. That's pretty much the same result you'll have trying to shove a one-size-fits-all CPU into every embedded computer system in the nation.

    2. Re:Are you sure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Forgive him, he knows nuts about screws.

    3. Re:Are you sure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    4. Re:Are you sure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll believe your fucking stupid comparision when you can produce a guide to selecting ISA that actually provides rational explanations for ISA choices besides native word and address length.

      In my experience as a professional EE/embedded programmer, the last thing I care about is the ISA of a chip. I care about cost, power consumption, performance, and especially peripheral inter-connects, but the ISA matters pretty much not at all. Maybe to the designer of the chip it makes it easier or harder to meet performance targets, but I think in general it has very little to do with that, and a whole lot to do with not hitting the competitions patents. Most ISAs are more or less equivalent, albeit incompatible. MIPS, ARM, they get about the same code density, and the performance of the CPUs is determined by design choices like the size of instruction and data caches and the implementation of speculative execution. In virtually all 32-bit CPUs, the instruction-decode logic makes up a very small part of the total die space.

      It would actually be a small boon if all 32 bit RISC cpus had the same ISA, but not a huge one, because it just means using one compiler or another.

      A lot of people on /. don't seem to understand the difference between ISA and CPU implementation. Just because some CPU performs really well, doesn't mean the ISA is good, and equivalently, just because some CPU sucks, doesn't necessarily mean the ISA is bad. The ISA is just an encoding for the operations the CPU implements (or doesn't in the case of microcoded instructions).

      ISA is not like screws. ISA is more like the difference between ISO and DIN, they both do the job, they're just slightly different ways of doing the fucking same thing. The only case where that's really different is stack machines, which are few and far between, largely because it turns out they're not so easy to implement pipelined, super-scalar designs.

    5. Re:Are you sure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never go full retard.

  25. Overkill? by Wattos · · Score: 1

    This seems to be total overkill. If China wants to spy on its users, its a lot easier to do it differently.

    Why not simply enforce that all new machines have UEFI and only accept to boot an OS which is signed by the Chinese government? In the kernel they can then introduce whatever spying technology they want.

    This is pretty much equivalent to creating their own architecture, since that would also require a specially compiled OS for that architecture.

    Or am I missing something?

    1. Re:Overkill? by slew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Politics (and spying) aside, this is probably not unlike their past effort to create a new Audio Video compression Standard. I'm sure the Chinese look at the Arm ISA situation and see wow, you really do have to get an Arm license if you want to make a smart phone. This seems similar to the BluRay MPEG/H.264 situation and their move with AVS. They've got a lot of smart folks in China and want to spur development. In the process, the want to see if they can give their local companies an economic advantage (reduced licensing fees for manufactured products for domestic consumption).

      If this takes off in China (a big market), then instead of chinese companies paying foreign companies a licensing fee for products (net outflow of money), the foreign companies that want to make a product for consumption in the chinese market will probably have to pay the Chinese licensing fees for this. That way money for new development gets to stay in China benefiting their economy more than others. Why wouldn't they want to do this?

      Of course if it makes it easier to spy on folks, so much the better (homogenous platforms make that easier), but I don't think that's the main motivation. As with most things in China today, the motivation is national economic self-interest.

    2. Re:Overkill? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good points, slew. China has the money and factories and lots of brainpower, why wouldn't they want to develop their own CPUs and architecture? And who's to say that Intel, Google, and Apple are not allowing backdoors into our PCs to monitor us for terrorism or other suspicious activities (violating MPAA or RIAA or other intellectual copyright laws)? With growing consolidation of chip manufacturers and an increased use of patent law, licensing longterm does not make financial sense and makes China vulnerable. The potential for spying aside, this is an economic no-brainer for China. Since their domestic market is huge, the era of $50 touch-tablets and $100 PCs may be less than a decade away. And someday we might not just lose our dominance over hardware, but software and content, too.

    3. Re:Overkill? by higuita · · Score: 1

      Arm ISA situation and see wow, you really do have to get an Arm license

      AHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHA AHHA!!!! ... Please stop.... HAHA... getting a ARM license... HAHAH... stop, you are killing me!! :)

      --
      Higuita
    4. Re:Overkill? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Were you aware that China did in fact license the MIPs architecture for their Godson processor even after starting off with an illegal copy?
      They will play by the rules when it is to their advantage. The whole point of designing their own ISA is to avoid the fallout of working with companies whose licenses they've violated.

    5. Re:Overkill? by slew · · Score: 1

      FYI, SMIC (the largest foundary in china, probably larger than all the others in china put together) already has a ARM foundary partner license which allows companies using SMIC to use an ARM9 hard macro for a very nominal fee. I'm sure that the negotiation of the future fees and these CPU standardization talks are not unrelated (this is china after all).

      Arm has been very aggressive in licensing in China (bulk pricing, bundling Mali-graphics cores for free, etc) much to the detriment of Mips. In fact there are many rumors going around that some chinese company will buy Mips and that negotiation and the CPU standardization talks are probably not unrelated as well. ;^)

      The Chinese government tends to help their local companies quite a bit and with the size of the Chinese market, they have quite a bit of leverage.

      As yet another example, you may or may-not be aware that China has thier own wireless standards too: TD-SCDMA, TD-LTE. FWIW, if you wanted to "spy" on people in your country, it seems this is a bigger lever than an CPU ISA... If you don't put in a back-door, you can't hook to the local wireless network is a much bigger stick...

  26. All this has happened before and will happen again by Iphtashu+Fitz · · Score: 1

    ISA was created in 1981. China is just ensuring that everything from the past 30 years happens again...

  27. People are dumb. by toriver · · Score: 2

    What if China goes the DIY route and makes its own ISA or microarchitecture with silicon-level censorship and monitoring, or an always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies?

    We will still buy those products because they are the cheapest.

  28. Poor Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "makes its own ISA or microarchitecture with silicon-level censorship and monitoring"

    This is one of the silliest things I've ever read on /. It shows that the author has no idea of what an ISA is.

  29. Wouldn't they need like 1000 times ,more space? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    becuse the alphabet or whatever they call it has like 60000 letters. how else to cram all those letters in a dye but make it bigger? what of numbers? do they have 1000 times more numbers too? and punchashun? who can fit a key board on his desk with 60000 letters? how fast can the fast sinaese type?

  30. You can't put a backdoor into an ISA by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 2

    You could put one into an implementation of the ISA.

    If you wanted to put a backdoor into an implementation, you could easily do so with x86-64. It has instructions specifically used for AES. Just wire those to record keys, substitute keys or not actually encrypt and you're off and running.

    Of course, since any ISA and implementation is Turing-complete without the specialized crypto instructions, you could just use the non-specialized instructions to do your work and then it would be a lot harder for the chip to save off your keys or data.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
  31. The End of Chinese Economic Boom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So much for their move towards free markets and growing economy. Let's hope this doesn't catch on in the communist United States as well. Intel will probably be lobbying congress to make their competitor's cpus illegal

    Recommended reading: The Road to Serfdom

  32. Open Source Backdoors? by alexander_686 · · Score: 2

    To build on MTTs's argument - but how would this work in practice? I am seeing a huge logical hole that I can’t figure out. Picking a ISA would seem to work against them. Does anybody have any ideas?

    This is how I understand the proposal. The Government (and I can use upper case here because China is lead by a “Communist” party that leads state-owned enterprises – slightly more monolithic then elsewhere.) wants to save money (i.e. not pay western firms) by endorsing a ISA. O.K. I am not exactly a supporter of big government, so I don’t like the actor, but I do approve of AMD reverse engineering Intel’s x86 architecture.

    Obviously this is to boost technical skills in chip design. Many people have suggested that this would make it easier to install back doors.

    But the ISA would have to be published. WTO says it must. China can tilt the playing field to domestic companies – but only so far.

    So, how would a backdoor that was openly documented work? I mean us slashdoters laugh all the time on “Security via obscurity”. How would a security hole via openness work?

    1. Re:Open Source Backdoors? by snadrus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Cryptographically. Windows requiring EFI is using cryptography to lock out Mac, BSD, & Linux because motherboard manufacturers will only let the cryptographically-right OS run. Extend that to incoming network requests and done.

      --
      Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
  33. fearmongering by Tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Interesting how most comments wank on about fears of backdoors.

    How stupid do you think the chinese are? A hardware backdoor in every device means that if you lose control of it even once, your entire infrastructure belongs to whoever you lost it to. I don't think anyone would take that risk for a bit of spying, not if you already have 100 better ways of spying.

    What is so unlikely about the assumption that it really is in order to become independent of the west? That's a biggy right there. There's an elephant in the room, you know? The chinese are fast becoming one of the most important players on the world stage and they can't have something as important as chip design rest with a country (USA) that might turn hostile at the next unpredictable election.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:fearmongering by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      More likely it's some bureaucracy at a lower level, thinking, "we need to make our stuff more interoperable. We're going to do that like this........." An ISA is the last thing you need to worry about when you're thinking about independence from the USA.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:fearmongering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Independent of the West" has another translation: "the West dependent on China".

      What if they build an architecture that's good enough and cheaper? What if it's subsidized and available for export? Wouldn't it be neat for China if they were Silicon Valley in 30 years?

      The rare earths market might be a foreshadowing of computing.

  34. Since China is a communist state ... by Alain+Williams · · Score: 3, Funny

    Will all CPU instruction be given the same time allowance, or will it be a case of to each according to its need?

    1. Re:Since China is a communist state ... by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      China is not a communist state so this point is moot.

    2. Re:Since China is a communist state ... by swb · · Score: 1

      A few elite instructions will get as much time as they want, the rest will have to queue up once a week to get whatever time is available.

    3. Re:Since China is a communist state ... by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      I could not read the 588 responses, so here is mine.

      What would China do if the USA told Intel that selling cpu's to China is off limits. Would Intel's competitor (AMD) get the benefit? What if China, wants more jobs at home, and wants to promote it's own IT industry. The USA has already sent the manufacturing off shore, so now that the children of the next generation are completing university, why should they want to buy American technology? Why put your country at risk to potential future USA policies or politics.

      The wonderful schooling of MBA's taught to look today at maximizing profit, and forget the future. You who are reading this are part of the pain due to that teaching. The future is leaving the USA and the USA is becoming a consumer nation. No nation or individual has exclusivity on intelligence, and the transfer of manufacturing will be followed by China doing the engineering and using their local manufacturing plants setup by you know who.

      We all know that all CPUs have back doors. A flaw in the implementation of an instruction can often be repaired by some microcode upload immediately after a power-on sequence. Back door to spying was mentioned, and it is a false suggestion. You really want to do it from the bios code at boot time.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  35. Silicon level monitoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "What if China goes the DIY route and makes its own ISA or microarchitecture with silicon-level censorship and monitoring, or an always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies?"

    As opposed to the USA same? At this point in time I'm really not sure if I can trust USA any more than China. As a government I probably would be even more skeptical.
    It just might be that they want an own foundation to build on - that everything would be based on the same architecture is probably because governments in general are not known for their technical knowledge.

    The /. article seems somewhat biased.

  36. They probably just want... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They probably just want to have an R2 cache instead of an L2 cache.

    1. Re:They probably just want... by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      They probably just want to have an R2 cache instead of an L2 cache.

      Just so you know, Chinese actually has a separate R and L sound in their language (although the 'R' is halfway between the French R and the English R). Japanese unifies that phoneme, not Chinese.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  37. Just money not surveillance by drnb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... a unified architecture could make it easier to build in a common backdoor for spying ...

    I doubt its over surveillance, such a backdoor will be found. The real motivation is most likely economic, simply not wanting to buy an expensive part from the west. It may even become a part they could export. Do consumers really care, or even know, what CPU is inside some electronic appliance/device?

    1. Re:Just money not surveillance by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      I think you can take their stated motivation at face value here. They just want to be free of any intellectual property claims. Rather than paying ARM royalties for every ARM compatible chip that goes into a Chinese smartphone/tablet/Windows 8 PC they can have their own free to use one. It would also allow Chinese companies to take the place of people like Intel and ARM and become major drivers of CPU technology.

      Backdoors are right out because then no-one would buy Chinese products, and they have a huge export market.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Just money not surveillance by chill · · Score: 1

      Interesting that they don't have OpenSPARC on their shortlist. Wouldn't that satisfy their worries about royalty-free IP?

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    3. Re:Just money not surveillance by amorsen · · Score: 2

      They probably want to create something which could theoretically deliver half-decent performance.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
  38. Red Star Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    China has already demonstrated their standards for software success with this ever popular distribution.
    The platform must conform!

  39. Could also be... by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

    I don't think it is a question of a good or bad idea. As the summary surmises, a unified architecture could make it easier to build in a common backdoor for spying. This is an issue of making surveillance easier and this should hardly come as a surprise because a Communist country is entirely dependent upon controlling its citizens through the use of surveillance. Ultimately, by putting in place a mandate and enforcing it, it places additional costs and burdens on the businesses that must abide by these new regulations.

    Could also be that they are so paranoid that the West has backdoors into the existing technology that they want to design their own.

  40. I would choose by aglider · · Score: 1
    --
    Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
  41. What about x86. by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

    It seems like the patents should run out quite soon on most of the core x86 stuff. And AMD were willing to license x64 to Transmeta and Via (Via already have an x86 license from Intel). So maybe x86 will become an open architecture that anyone can implement if they pay up some fees, a bit like MIPS.

    It's worth pointing out that China has an unlicensed MIPS clone called Longson - basically they skipped the patented instructions. Unlike Lexra, they made them NOPS - Lexra made them fault and MIPS sued them on the grounds that it was possible to emulate them in software.

    Despite all that I've read that by partnering with MIPS licensees it would theoretically be possible to sell Longsons in the US. Of course the problem is that MIPS is a bit outdated and is not really competitive with x86 for performance heavy stuff or for ARM for low power. And obviously ARM is very open - it is even possible to get a license that lets you build ARMS with custom micro architecture like Qualcomm do.

    So it does make you wonder if at some point x64 will become similarly open. x64 chips tend to lead performance per core so there's a certain argument for this.

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  42. I hope they do it by alispguru · · Score: 1

    If only to give x86 a swift kick in the bits. These days, the x86 standard serves primarily as a barrier to entry - anyone can pick up open-source tools and write sort-of shippable code, but to get the last factor of two in performance, you either have to be Intel, or buy Intel's compiler and know a lot about configuring it and your code to mesh right.

    --

    To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
  43. backdoors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "...or an always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies?"

    Then the U.S. Government will surely follow suit because of you know all the children and terrorists...not because political rivals and corporate interests could be protected....

  44. did we standardized on... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didn't we ( USA ) ourselves standardized on Intel x86 architecture?? Don't we call Intel x86 chips industry-standard???

  45. On the other hand by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    given that they still build physical product (so beneath us Americans now) and virtually all of it to boot, they are a tail more than big enough to wag the entire dog.

  46. Intellectual Property?? by yodleboy · · Score: 1

    "The primary reason for this move is to lessen China's reliance on western intellectual property."

    As if these chips won't be chock full of western IP... They've gotten what they wanted from the West, now they cut the cord. Rinse and repeat.

  47. I was on a website yesterday.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..and all I saw was Chinese "backdoors". It was quite spectacular!

  48. come come sinophobes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How did a technology standardization story turned into a rant fest for all the sinophobes?
    If this were a story about Germany or Japan it would actually stay on the technical topic.
    Oh I'm sorry, I forgot China is doing well AND isn't under the thumbs of crumbling Western wannabe imperialists regimes.

  49. Backdoor by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    > or an always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies?

    I'd like to point out that an always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies would very shortly after release be an always-open backdoor into this technology for absolutely everyone. I don't see them doing this, but if they did, it'd be entertaining.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  50. The world is irrational. by microbox · · Score: 1

    How stupid do you think the chinese are? A hardware backdoor in every device means that if you lose control of it even once, your entire infrastructure belongs to whoever you lost it to. I don't think anyone would take that risk for a bit of spying, not if you already have 100 better ways of spying.

    The fearmongering is a valid point. However, the rest of your sentence is nonsense. People who make political decisions are rarely connected to the realities of their policies. Why do you think Stephen Conray wants to protect children be censoring the internet? The Australian PM admitted that it is a moral decision and not a technical one. Think about that for a moment, and then translate to China -- a place where 20 million people starved to death in the late 60s, because Mao wanted to increase steel production, and people melted their farming tools.

    The world is irrational. Don't expect someone to hold back on "great idea" because it has the potential to backfire.

    --

    Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    1. Re:The world is irrational. by Tom · · Score: 1

      True to a point.

      But it's not the 60s anymore, and the current chinese government is pretty far away from Mao. I've seen them make immoral decisions, hostile (to both other countries and their own people) decisions, and even some evil ones. But I've not yet seem them utterly GWB-level-dumb-as-shit ones. Have you?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  51. Spying Chips by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

    Yes it seems likely that the Chinese will put a backdoor into their chip. Which is bad. But is it worse than backdoors in say, Intel or AMD motherboards or chips... probably not. With the chinese CPU backdoor plan eventually a Linux will be released that fixes the problem, with American chips/motherboards/OSs it will probably take a lot longer and be more difficult to identify the backdoors/security holes. Also since they are driven by capitalism not communism many more backdoors and "bugs" will be accepted as non-intentional... also reducing how vehemently security researchers will search for and remove backdoors.

  52. ratchet down the anti-communism by nimbius · · Score: 1

    schtick a little bit guys...how is this any different than government contracts to intel or amd? just replace the word government mandate with corporate contract, as most of our government is a revolving door of corporate namesakes anyhow.

    take note that the f35 lightning contains 3 powerpc chips. DoD and other government projects have certain architecture and even (gasp) operating system requirtements here in the states, often mandated or enforced by legislature.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  53. Its Great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its a GREAT IDEA! Wait... Ummm RTFA.... wait.... wait... No. No. Nope. Terrible implementation.
    Worthless sh*t.

  54. WRONG ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's been shown that you can add backdoors to CPUs with very few transistors. With a few hundred gates (on a die containing hundreds of millions of gates!) you can create a REMOTELY EXPLOITABLE BUG that lets you escalate from user-mode code to ring 0. Just passing data through the cache can trigger it. So you could create a remote webpage, that when browsed to, causes certain data to pass through the CPU's cache and "activates" the backdoor, disabling some memory protection and allowing a simple conventional attack to completely take over the machine. Or you could just send it a specially-crafted IP packet. Make it look like http on port 80 or something, to get it past hardware firewalls. The network driver will load the packet into the CPU's cache, and then higher layers in the network stack will ignore it because it doesn't have proper sequence number or whatever. You could remotely and silently trigger the exploit whenever you want.

    Its actually a big problem that most of our chips are fabbed in other countries and we have no way to check them to see if they contain these type of backdoors.

    1. Re:WRONG ! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Great idea, with one flaw: No plausable deniability. You'd have to include some form of public-key auth, otherwise your own weapon will be used against you. Eventually it will be discovered, and then... you just killed your entire semiconductor industry for the next decade.

  55. Some choices by unixisc · · Score: 1

    MIPS, ARM, POWER and Alpha - ARM is not likely to be released, since it's so lucrative, and I doubt that IBM will want to give up the POWER architecture either. MIPS might - and there, there is the Loongson processor, so the Chinese would already have a head start. Alpha is definitely a possibility, which I had suggested that the Russians use if they wanted a completely home grown super-computer. But if the Chinese want something proprietary, their best choice would be to tap Intel and go w/ the Itanium, which would be truly secret since few have bothered to study it due to its being such a boondoggle. But if it went to China, it would gain the economics of scale.

    If the Chinese do the UPU CPU, and want to make it different from all the rest, suggestion - make it a VLIW, and have an entire committee of PhDs working on the ultimate compilers for these, and similarly, have CPU designers working on it. Make it the first 128-bit CPU ever, and have different implementations of it be the basis for everything from supercomputers to tablets. That way, they make it next to impossible for other software (read: dissidents who might want to get subversive software on to that platform) to be ported to it, while the only party authorized software can be created and compiled for such platforms.

    Go w/ VLIW, comrades - you'll be amazed at how dependent everyone who wants to do anything on that computer would be on you.

    1. Re:Some choices by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      There are lots of options.
      MIPS I think is most likely but as you said Alpha is a good option.
      What about VAX? Or maybe IBM 360/ZSystem?
      IBM made 16, 32, and 64 bit versions of that ISA and CISC does have some benifit when it comes to memory speed over RISC.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  56. Is the chinese government full of idiots? by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    First they start restricting exports of rare earths and vespene gas... pissing away their monopoly.

    Now they seek to mandate architecture rather than let market decide. These systems only work as well as they do and are only affordable as they are due to economies of scale. If you artificially throw a wrench in that the most likely outcome is increased cost and lower quality.

    Unfounded american paranoia wrt chinese products and firms including huawei and lenovo is equally stupid.

  57. Awesome Idea for US Intelligence Agencies by StickyWidget · · Score: 1
    If the new architecture has backdoors, I'm sure we'll spend a lot of money to crack the backdoor, and then it to infiltrate Chinese systems.

    Win!

    ~Sticky

    1. Re:Awesome Idea for US Intelligence Agencies by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I am sure that it would NEVER occur to them to use one chip for their stuff and another for all else.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  58. All of our shit is made there... by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

    China already has a backdoor into all of us.

  59. Glorious Shift Left by VomitInc · · Score: 1

    They started by stripping out the rightward shift and rotate instructions from the instruction set.

  60. We're baaaacccckkkk.... by msobkow · · Score: 1

    DEC - Digital Equipment of China.

    :P :P :P

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  61. windfall by ltwally · · Score: 1

    What if China goes the DIY route and makes its own ISA or microarchitecture with silicon-level censorship and monitoring, or an always-open backdoor for the Chinese intelligence agencies?

    Can you say "windfall for US Intelligence" ??

    The Chinese-Communists would have to be really, really stupid to put a hardware back-door into their microprocessors. Such a hole is inevitable to be discovered and exploited by western intelligence, whether the means are covertly stealing the information or reverse-engineering. It practically guarantees that they could never trust any system with one of these chips in it. And it gets better -- even if the systems that those chips are in aren't themselves "sensitive", if they connect in any way to systems that are sensitive, they could be used as a means to compromise the sensitive systems.

    You're talking about an oppressive regime that manages to keep 1.3 billion people happy enough to not revolt. You're talking about a regime that has managed to keep a $300b / year trade deficit in their favour with the United States for the past 15 years (which, admittedly, says more about us than them). You're talking about a country with one of the largest militaries on the planet, and one of the fastest growing economies on the planet. We may not like them very much, but they sure don't seem to be fsck-ups enough to make that kind of mistake.

    ... Now, the possibility of them installing a hardware backdoor into products that they only sell to the West? That's an entirely different matter. But there is no way they'd want to use those same systems in their own infrastructure. And that's what this new "national" microchip is about -- a common ISA for their own internal use, to remove reliance on foreigners (that would be us).

    --



    /dev/random
  62. Instead of CISPA by mbstone · · Score: 1

    This is what the US federal government should have done instead of pushing idiotic "cybersecurity" legislation like CISPA. Make all government, DoD, DoE, contractor machines run on a different ISA and chipset. Not that the ISA would be a secret from any foreign governments, or anyone else, just that malware would have to be specially written to target it, and existing and new malware targeted at commercial and home users wouldn't run on it.

  63. So... by evilgraham · · Score: 1
    "The primary reason for this move is to lessen China's reliance on western intellectual property"

    What, they might actually invent their own for a change? Unless "lessen" is a synonym for totally abandon (and stop copying). Like that's going to happen anytime, real soon!

  64. That's the perfect illustration ... by porky_pig_jr · · Score: 1

    of communist mentality: we produce only one size but it fits everyone!

  65. for those of you wondering about backdoors by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Let me point out that they have the great firewall of China. And one thing that has been learned is that it is designed to work both ways nicely. Even if they leave backdoors in their equipment (most likely that will be the case), there will not be easy ways to get the information out of China. IOW, when China finally attacks the west, they already have their firewall up and most likely will have quickly installed updates on all of their core equipment. IOW, they will not be able to monitor, but nobody will attack either.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  66. Just embezzling mone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is nothing more than a way to embezzle money to their friends' companies. As we all know everyone is running Red Flag Linux in China? hahaha

  67. xiexie '' China!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm delighted to hear this actually .. if the Chinese leadership is terminating whatever understanding they may have with the anglo-israeli agenda 21 sustainable dictatorship crowd, so much better for the rest of us little people who have to live on this planet. I would think this may be a definite possibility, you see these "leaders" on both sides .. they know no loyalty, no friendship and their allegiances are enforced with naked brutality. Their superiors mistreat them cruelly, for they have to constantly fear those under them to rise up. People like George Soros or any of the Rockefellers would rip each other's throats out at the drop of a hat if they thought they could profit from such a move. You see, the higher you rise on the pyramid, no matter what side of it, the more you have earned your progress through ruthlessness and deceit... and looking at a pyramid the higher you get the less room there is to stand in.

    So yes delightful news indeed if there were a real conflict with China. This would occupy our local parasites quiet a bit forcing them to back off from their agenda of dismantling the west (where is your job going next?) and undermining our personal freedoms (hey did you know you can't even buy raw milk in the US anymore, incredible as it may sound)..

    Bring it on China and in that case xiexie '', thank you :-)

  68. Re:What about VLIW? by unixisc · · Score: 1

    From what I've read, some MIPS CPUs, such as the XBurst, are pretty competitive w/ ARM on both performance and power consumption. So it wouldn't be such a bad option. However, if the Chinese want something that they completely control, they could go for a home grown VLIW processor, which would make it easier on the transistors, since most of the work would be done by a compiler, and then they could have a wide variety of implementations covering anything from tablets to super-computers.

  69. Please boot the Mark 1 computer between your ears by tarpitcod · · Score: 1

    Step 1. Close the Leet Javascript serverside apps page you were reading.
    Step 2. Wait for the Mark 1 computer to reload it's pipelines. Does it seem like it's working well now? Great! Go on to step 3.
    Step 3. Open Wikipedia. Pick a processor architecture. Intel x86, x64, MIPS, ARM, SPARC, PPC, ...
    Step 4. Read the page. Notice in many cases different companies make chips that are the same Architecture. Notice how many different IMPLEMENTATIONS of those architectures exist. Are they all the same? No. Just like javascript interpreters there are differences.
    Step 5. Only attempt if your Mark 1 computer is working properly: Investigate timing attacks against microprocessors. Hint look at multicore cache information leakage.
    Step 6. Only for the polymaths! Now consider, if you wrote some code that managed to determine what code was running in another core due to a shared cache and timing analysis, would that work on all implementations. Hint notice that some implementations don't share caches.

    Step 7. Give up. Context switch back to Javascript. Boy writing server side apps in Javascript is a GREAT IDEA. and Hey a new idea pops to mind - javascript is AWESOME - why not use it for the code in pacemakers, or autopilots, or antilock brakes! Wait! Maybe that new architecture is really a way to make a new vulnerability in javascript! Oh wow! Better post that now before someone else beats you to it!

  70. They aren't Marxist any more by mbkennel · · Score: 1

    but they are still Leninist.

    They're an aggressive Leninist-Capitalist state. Capitalism's money and Lenin's morals.

  71. ripoff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will most likely end up being a direct ripoff from the western tech the seems to hate so much yet keep on copying without a care in the world. Copies which will probably end up exploding anyway, like everything else in China.

  72. Resource efficiency over time by Auntiegrav · · Score: 1

    One advantage of the standardization idea is that development would be more stable over the long term, rather than having people compete every day against all other comers, they could develop toward one platform at a time, and do theoretical R & D toward the next gen cooperatively. The speed of advancing computer technology used to be quite important at increasing efficiencies in the work environment, but now that we are not waiting for our computers to boot and reboot every time we plug in a bit of information from hardware, the work efficiency increases aren't so much. Development of software and hardware could benefit greatly from a plan to stick with one architecture for some fixed period of time. The resources saved could be banked or used toward making the next release (every 4 years?) or architecture standard ready for use with more intelligent and effective testing before implementation. The backdoor/hacking/security issue can then be addressed in a more stable fashion (keyed interfacing that doesn't allow hardware/software to connect without a matching code/chip. If the result is an architecture that is stable and gets the work done, then we can drop a lot of the wasted competition redundancies and failed business startups which tie themselves to nonstandard equipment/software. Standardization has pros and cons, depending on how deep the standardization needs to go and at what cost in overall work effectiveness.

  73. Re:What about VLIW? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

    VLIW seems like a dead end to me. Intel - who really can afford to do R&D - spent a lot of time and money on Itanium and it seems like it's not really competitive with x64 even if you're willing to recompile your code for each micro architecture iteration.

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  74. Re:What about VLIW? by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Oh, it's definitely unsuitable for commercial purposes, where market acceptance would be an issue. But here, the goal is that Beijing would get something they'd completely control. Going w/ VLIW, they get to design a closed architecture that only approved software writers could get in in that one would have to have a minimal level of expertise in compiler design and writing programs for VLIW. They could resolve a part of the issue by making it partly EPIC and minimizing the re-compilation required b/w generations, but by making something like this, they'd have a really high barrier to entry.

    While VLIW has its commercial disadvantages, its advantage is that since most of the activities like scheduling, branch prediction and so on take place in the compiler but not the silicon, the Chinese can make a wide variety of microprocessors - low powered ones for tablets to high performance ones in super-computers. They can then have Red Flag Linux, or whatever other home grown OS they have flying over them. As far as R&D goes, they could do Intel & HP a favor by buying up all rights to Itanium, so that they don't have to start from scratch, and then do whatever further R&D they want from there. Start initially by buying CPUs from Intel, but later commoditize it in China, and bring the economy of scale to it.

    Once that's done, in all OSs that are approved for it, insert whatever back doors they wish. Those who wish to get around that would either have to get HP/UX (which too can be bought by the Chinese) or get Debian or FreeBSD. Maybe in the firmware, they can build in something to intercept those OSs unless they incorporate their backdoors.