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NYC Teachers Forbidden To "Friend" Students

betterunixthanunix writes "The New York City Department of Education has issued rules covering student-teacher interactions on social networking websites. Following numerous inappropriate relationships between students and teachers that began on social networking sites, the rules prohibit teachers from communicating with students using their 'personal' accounts, and requires parental consent before students can participate in social networking for educational purposes. The rules also state that teachers have no expectation of privacy online, and that principals and other officials will inspect teachers' profiles. Oddly, the rules do not address communication involving cell phones, which the Department of Education's own investigations have shown to be even more problematic."

165 of 238 comments (clear)

  1. Good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Good. That behavior is unprofessional.

    1. Re:Good. by kvvbassboy · · Score: 2

      So, are you saying that you lost touch with your teachers, especially the ones you really liked, after the year got over? Since, that is absurd, I'll assume you haven't.

      So, let's say you add your teacher on FB after the year. What do you do when the same teacher takes a class for you the following year? Do you un-friend them? Even if you _do_ unfriend them, it doesn't solve the main problem, which is innate bias from some teachers to some students.

      What needs to be done is that, all teachers that favor a select few students with respect to grades or personalized attention need to be penalized or reprimanded. Students should be allowed to complain anonymously about such issues to a higher authority.

    2. Re:Good. by justin12345 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Read the WSJ's publication of the actual policy. It essentially prohibits teachers from actively using the internet except in a professionally approved setting, unless they can be certain that their privacy (anonymity) is assured.

      It's not just about Facebook. If you're a teacher and you have a blog (even one you intended to be anonymous) and you students comment on it you could face disciplinary action. The way it's worded even an unauthorized slashdot post could be construed as inappropriate contact if a student posts in the same thread and knows the teacher's handle.

      --
      Cool art gallery, if you're into that sort of thing.
    3. Re:Good. by t27duck · · Score: 5, Funny

      Mr. Justin, is that you?

      Can I get a three day extension on my final project?

    4. Re:Good. by justin12345 · · Score: 4, Funny

      No. You will be deducted one letter grade for each hour your project is late. Two if I'm in a bad mood.

      --
      Cool art gallery, if you're into that sort of thing.
    5. Re:Good. by Mashiki · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Good. That behavior is unprofessional.

      No, it's not unprofessional. I'm guessing you didn't grow up at the end of the era where having teachers over for dinner was common. Didn't end all that long ago, just back in the 90's. Most of my favorite teachers came over on my invite, with the permission of my parents.

      I'm still in touch with a couple of them, about half of them are dead. But my mechanics, science and history teachers? When I'm back in the americas they still come over to visit, and hear about my travels and take things that I've brought or pictures or other tidbits to show their classes. Hell I've spoken infront of their classes in the last 3 years, and I'm nobody important, just someone who has a fascination with learning and traveling.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    6. Re:Good. by Ritchie70 · · Score: 1

      It depends on what behavior.

      Social networks tend to show EVERYTHING about people who truly use them as they are intended.

      Is it OK for a teacher to be friends with students, visit with them and their parents, and so forth? Absolutely.

      Is it OK for students to see their teacher's private life - including all the stupid stuff that they did 5 years ago? Probably not, especially not at the primary grades - kids don't need to see adult stuff.

      My sister teaches dance at a private dance school. She refuses to friend anyone younger than 14. It's the same thing. Kids don't need to see adult stuff.

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    7. Re:Good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, it's not unprofessional.

      I agree. In 1998 I did some work on my teacher's computer at his house. Afterwards I had dinner with him and his wife. It was very nice and pleasant. It was no secret, and no big deal. He even mentioned it in his class to other students.

      My sister-in-law teaches middle school in Georgia and has many of her students on her Facebook. She uses it to be a positive role model to her students, most of whom are poor and don't speak great English.

      I think all the over "protection" nowadays is stupid. Most teachers (and people in general) have good intentions, just like they did 20 years ago. It seems like every time there's an incident of any kind, we overreact and create a new policy. I drove past my old high school the other week and they have a tall (7-8-foot?) fence with barbed-wire around the whole thing and cameras. It looks like a prison. It used to be beautiful. This isn't the inner city either. It's rural. I can only imagine what schools must be like in the city.

      How long before we have bullet-proof glass between the teacher and the students? It's stupid.

    8. Re:Good. by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 1

      Kids don't need to see adult stuff.

      Rather, we should lock them up in a bubble where they'll be shielded from the harsh, harsh realities of the world. That way they'll be sure to succeed in the future. If we don't, they'll become criminals or something. Or be scarred for life. Something like that...

      Wait, why?

    9. Re:Good. by davester666 · · Score: 2

      ...and three if you spit instead of swallowing...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    10. Re:Good. by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Let the grubby bastards fend for themselves.

    11. Re:Good. by neyla · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Right. Let's create a separate "kids" world. The kids-world will have no swearing, no nudity, no death, no kissing, no money-problems, no divorces. Let's do our level best to shut our kids in these fictional, boring, sterile, pink-plastic worlds, where they can grow up dealing as little as possible with the real world.

      Then, once they hit some magical age, 14 or 18 or whatever, let's open the floodgates and assume they're now well-prepared to deal with a world we've done our level best to ensure they've learnt nothing about.

      On second thought, let's not do that. Instead, let's be guides and teachers to the real world. Let's try to explain in language a child can understand, rather than try to hide.

    12. Re:Good. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 3, Informative

      He's a teacher, not a priest...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    13. Re:Good. by chuckugly · · Score: 2

      If only there were some way of separating my circle of friends into other smaller circles depending on the context of the relationship.

    14. Re:Good. by internerdj · · Score: 2

      Part of being a guide and teacher is not throwing your student into a situation they can't deal with. We shouldn't completely avoid the topics as many are wont to do, but there is a place for selectively censoring the content that goes to a child. Further, another authority figure in my child's life shouldn't arbitrarily decide to overexpose my child on serious matters without some warning or discussion with me or my wife.

    15. Re:Good. by davester666 · · Score: 1

      that just means he can use a condom...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    16. Re:Good. by Mufasa_ooh_sayitagai · · Score: 1

      That's a good point but that filter should be a parent and not a government organization.

    17. Re:Good. by quarmar · · Score: 2

      Teacher! Leave those kids alone!

    18. Re:Good. by MacWiz · · Score: 1

      My wife taught 8th grade in a low-income area. She used FB to keep tabs on her students and several times took pro-active steps to intervene (in a helpful manner) on the ones who were getting into gang activity and drugs. Sometimes, it helped. Sometimes, it was a waste of time.

      Not all teachers are sexual predators. Some of them actually care about the kids they spend 35-40 hours a week with.

    19. Re:Good. by Ritchie70 · · Score: 2

      I don't think I said anything about sexual predators.

      I just think kids should worry about kid stuff and not see their teachers getting drunk, being stupid, and generally carrying on. All of which, I'm told, is rampant on Facebook.

      Personally, my Facebook account is a mechanism for fooling around with people I largely haven't seen since I graduated from high school 25-ish years ago. And even that gets kind of bawdy and would be inappropriate for small children.

      If your wife could use Facebook as a force for good with her students, that's wonderful. It sounds like she is a wonderful caring person. Not all teachers are that. Some are stupid 22-year-olds who still live like they're in college except from 8 to 3. I don't want my 10-year-old hanging out on Facebook with her and all her friends.

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    20. Re:Good. by Ritchie70 · · Score: 1

      You know what? Yes, from the point of view of people OUTSIDE the child's family, let's create a special kids world where the parents don't have to worry about any of that stuff. Not hear swearing, not see (sexualized at least) nudity, not hear about politics or war or money problems or sex or drinking or divorce or any of it.

      Let's leave it to the parents to teach their children about the real world, in the way and at the time they think is best instead of having them learn stuff by listening to their teacher and teacher's friends talking about it on Facebook.

      If a teacher wants to be on Facebook with their students, they should create a separate Facebook account for that purpose, and they should make their school administration aware of it and friend the school principal along with whatever students they friend. Keep being Ms. Doe to the students, be Jane to your friends, and never the twain should meet, Facebook-wise.

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    21. Re:Good. by neyla · · Score: 1

      The context was social networking, more specifically a dance-teacher. Most (say) Facebook-users have absolutely nothing in their Facebook-stream that is of such a nature that school-children needs shielding from it.

      I quote: "Is it OK for students to see their teacher's private life - including all the stupid stuff that they did 5 years ago? Probably not, especially not at the primary grades - kids don't need to see adult stuff."

      I dunno what level of "stupid" they're talking here, but I'd say if the stuff the teacher did 5 years ago is bad enough that kids would be scarred from just -hearing- about it, then I wonder if that person should be a teacher at all.

      I'm not saying all children should have completely unfiltered access to everything. But the kinds of everyday-stories from everyday-lives that people tend to share in Facebook aren't typically particularily scary.

    22. Re:Good. by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      An AI is more likely, or an 'educationally programmed RealDoll TM', why spend all that money making glass boxes for teacher when you can replace the teachers with an android which will deliver an identical teaching experience for all students, which will guarantee a consistent educational result for all students [1].

      [1] The consistent result probably being a crap education for all, but hey, no child left behind....

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
  2. What if the teacher is the child's parent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Would this still be illegal?

    1. Re:What if the teacher is the child's parent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's obviously disgusting and deviant that the teacher is boffing the kid's parent. Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

      People should get fired over this. It's almost as bad as teaching evolution.

    2. Re:What if the teacher is the child's parent? by Fned · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They would be violations of school policy, not misdemeanors / felonies.

      Well, that depends a lot on what they mean by "principals and other officials will inspect teachers' profiles."

      If they just look at the profile, fine, whatever.

      If they log in AS the profile, there's a problem: everyone on that teacher's friend list who has a non-public profile is now visible, and accessing their friends-only profile info under that circumstance is, potentially, a federal crime.

  3. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    obviously the grandparent cares. don't be a tool, fool.

  4. Freedom by Nerdfest · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Freedom of association? Does that apply? Why do educators seem to love tossing out personal rights and freedoms? Between this, video cameras on laptops, insisting on viewing personal accounts, etc, it's just disheartening. Why not RFID tag them all or lock them in cells on their personal time?

    1. Re:Freedom by idontgno · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It does seem like a pretty poor recruiting pitch.

      Hey! We need you! Your students will hate you, your administration will suspect you, you'll be paid a pittance for long hours and much work, you'll be subject to every lawsuit a disgruntled punk can talk his drunken mother into starting, you'll pay for your supplies out of pocket, we may have to lay you off with almost no warning, and we'll be spying on you on-line. But other than that, it's a dream job!

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    2. Re:Freedom by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this includes ex-students? I friended several of my former teachers.

      The solution seems simple enough... make your facebook profile private, so the school administrators can't see who you friended. The courts have already ruled employers can't demand your password to see what's behind the privacy wall.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    3. Re:Freedom by Hentes · · Score: 1

      I don't think freedom of association applies under 18.

    4. Re:Freedom by icebike · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But most employers don't have control over impressionable young children for 5 or 6 hours per day.
      And in just about every industry where they do, there are rules in place for this kind of stuff, so yeah, any employer in a similar position of authority over , and custody of children WOULD get away with this shit.

      (Its pretty obvious you don't have kids and aren't even old enough to do so).

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    5. Re:Freedom by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Freedom of Association is nowhere mentioned in the US Constitution. The right mentioned there is Freedom of Assembly.

      The Supreme Court has ruled that such an implied right exists, however there are limits. For example you cannot refuse to sell beer to somebody because you don't like the color of their skin. On the other hand it is permissible for the state to make a law that you can't sell beer to someone who is below a certain age.

    6. Re:Freedom by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But most employers don't have control over impressionable young children for 5 or 6 hours per day.

      And most people aren't child molesters... And I happen to disagree with collective punishment.

      "For the children! For the children! Anyone who disagrees with me is underage/is a pedophile/doesn't have kids! There are pedophiles behind every corner, and since I claim to be a parent, that means I'm always 100% correct!"

      I hope you're trolling with those nonsensical assumptions.

    7. Re:Freedom by blueg3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Weirdly, I am simultaneously:
      a) offended that they're applying such arbitrary restrictions to teachers -- it seems, technologically, stupid, and I've had teachers that are friends
      b) pleased, since facebook is a pretty popular venue for creepy guys, and
      c) surprised that teachers associating with students on facebook is a big problem, since it seems extremely unprofessional to me.

      I have friends that teach and are Facebook friends with their *former* students, but association outside the classroom really should be conducted in a professional manner.

    8. Re:Freedom by similar_name · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So you can trust a person to have control over your impressionable young children for 5 to 6 hours a day but you're worried about them being a friend on Facebook?

    9. Re:Freedom by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2

      c) surprised that teachers associating with students on facebook is a big problem, since it seems extremely unprofessional to me.

      If you RTFA, you will see that it is not a huge problem -- a couple dozen "incidents," many of which seem to have been entirely online anyway (as opposed to a teacher trying to arrange for sex). On the other hand, teachers and students texting and talking on the phone seems to be a much bigger problem (more incidents and possibly more serious incidents), and the city has not addressed that in this update to the rules.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    10. Re:Freedom by icebike · · Score: 1

      I'd be worried if they WANTED to be my child's friend on facebook.

      (Well, actually, my child will not have a facebook account until they are way past the impressionable age, but that's beside the point).

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    11. Re:Freedom by DesertJazz · · Score: 1

      If you aren't in teaching to teach, you won't last long. It's probably the most thankless job you'll find sometimes. I love what I do, and I love teaching, but if it wasn't something I loved doing I could be making a lot more money doing something else. Personally I think this is a case of a state overstepping it's bounds. At some point teachers need to have some sort of rights to have lives, and unfortunately I see a spiral continuing down from here further and further. Pretty soon we'll be back to the 1800's teachers rules...

    12. Re:Freedom by similar_name · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'd be worried if they WANTED to be my child's friend on facebook.

      So anecdotally let me say something about my ex. She taught for a few years and we didn't have children. She still had the instinct to be a mom and I think that made her very engaged with her students. She also taught at some less than desirable schools where a lot of kids are lacking with regard to their parents. Many had one parent in jail and the other working late or not around.

      She was friends with some of her students on Facebook. They looked up to her and I think she felt better being a positive influence in their lives when they had so many negative influences. They both got something positive out of it. It's a shame to stop that scenario from happening because there are also bad teachers.

      Now I'm biased. My ex was a teacher, my mom is a teacher, my sister is a teacher and my brother in-law is a teacher. They truly enjoy teaching and they become particularly engaged with kids that need it the most. Sometimes a kid really needs someone to look up to and sometimes that person is a teacher.

      It should be taken under consideration how many kids will suffer from not being able to have a teacher be in their life outside of school. There are pros and cons to these sorts of guidelines and I think the cons are vastly overlooked. And the pros often exaggerated. I mean will this really prevent a teacher from being inappropriate with a student if that is their intent?

      (Well, actually, my child will not have a facebook account until they are way past the impressionable age, but that's beside the point).

      I think that's an important point. You're concerned about Facebook so you don't let your kids have one. You're being a parent and that will go much further than these guidelines will. Some kids are so lucky and a teacher can make a big difference in their lives and it's not because they taught them how to add.

    13. Re:Freedom by similar_name · · Score: 1

      Some kids are so lucky

      should be

      Some kids aren't so lucky

    14. Re:Freedom by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Freedom of Association is nowhere mentioned in the US Constitution. The right mentioned there is Freedom of Assembly.

      The constitution was never meant to enumerate rights.

      Supreme Court has ruled that such an implied right exists, however there are limits. For example you cannot refuse to sell beer to somebody because you don't like the color of their skin.

      Yes, but that has nothing to do with the freedom of association, but with the lack of a right to discriminate against people based on certain specific criteria which are enumerated in federal law, or in the case of California, state law.

      On the other hand it is permissible for the state to make a law that you can't sell beer to someone who is below a certain age.

      Which doesn't address this issue at all, but nice prevarication.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:Freedom by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      "The constitution was never meant to enumerate rights."

      Yes, but it does had all things not mentioned, first to the state, then to the individual. This is the state exercising it's rights.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    16. Re:Freedom by mpe · · Score: 1

      If you RTFA, you will see that it is not a huge problem -- a couple dozen "incidents," many of which seem to have been entirely online anyway (as opposed to a teacher trying to arrange for sex). On the other hand, teachers and students texting and talking on the phone seems to be a much bigger problem (more incidents and possibly more serious incidents), and the city has not addressed that in this update to the rules.

      Thing is that inappropriate behavior between students and teachers has been going on long before such machines were invented. Even modern incidents do not always telephones and/or social media.
      This is an issue of human behavior, rather than technology. Even where nothing sexual is involved such "fraternization" can have fatal consequences.

    17. Re:Freedom by tinkerton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I also think parents should not allowed to be alone with their kids. Bad things have been known to happen. Fact!

    18. Re:Freedom by vawwyakr · · Score: 1

      You'll also be personally held responsible for the relative intelligence of your students.

    19. Re:Freedom by Hizonner · · Score: 1

      I have a child. I'm about 50 years old. You are wrong. Grandparent is right.

    20. Re:Freedom by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Actually the second example directly addresses this issue directly as it is a state regulating associations between an adult and a minor.

      The first example is also quite apropos in that it gives an example where the right of association is overridden by the establishment of a protection for a certain class of individuals. US law is full of examples of this sort of legal structure.

      Thanks for being a complete nekulturny on this.

  5. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    That was an issued raised here, in Georgia. Apparently you can not prevent parents from friending their children.

  6. The issue is about supervision by kenh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I hope they worked out the boundary cases (teachers that are parents of students, etc). But by and large I think this is a reasonable first step.

    No, I'm not trying to deny the inevitable march into social media, but the issues with Facebook friending are:

    - possibility of mixing work and personal lives of teachers - there are many things that teachers are expected to not do in and around students in school, including students into their private social media could create problems

    - inability of schools to monitor relationships between students and teachers, hoping to detect, if not prevent them from happening

    When I last read about this type of issue, the proposed law was very clear - is a school district runs a Facebook-like web site that includes the ability to monitor communications between employees (teachers) and customers (students) that was fine.

    Why do teachers need to 'friend' under-age students of theirs? And no, arguing that this is how kids want to communicate with their teachers isn't good enough - there are too many alternatives for teachers to answer questions, distribute class work, etc.

    --
    Ken
    1. Re:The issue is about supervision by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 5, Insightful

      - possibility of mixing work and personal lives of teachers - there are many things that teachers are expected to not do in and around students in school, including students into their private social media could create problems

      - inability of schools to monitor relationships between students and teachers, hoping to detect, if not prevent them from happening

      So basically, an entire group of people should be banned from doing something merely because some people in that group may do things that some people do not agree with? You only speak of possibilities here. This is a perfect example of a collective punishment mentality.

      Why do teachers need to 'friend' under-age students of theirs?

      Why do you need to get on Facebook? Why do you need entertainment? How about, "Why not?" You just waive off all of their opinions just like that. There are few things that people "need." I'd prefer to not live in fear that teachers will abuse their power. I'd prefer to not punish all of them merely because some of them could do so.

    2. Re:The issue is about supervision by TavisJohn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would never distribute work or anything important through Facebook. With their ever changing landscape of what they think you do and do not want to see, you can never know if the students actually SEE the postings!

      E-mail is far more effective and reliable. And if the student's do not like that, tough. In College if the teacher says to use e-mail, you use e-mail.

    3. Re:The issue is about supervision by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      I concur.

      And while we're at, because there has been a rampant rash of accidents leading to kids losing parents, I propose we ban all parents (or teachers) from driving a car. And since accounts have been stolen, no more online banking. And because utorrent is used for piracy, forbade U.S. citizens from visiting it. And playboy is sometimes seen by underage students too, so I recommend that & all other nude sites be forbidden.

      I'm sure you have no problem with my modest proposal. (Or..... we could start treating children as future adults, and stop trying to take-away their freedoms. When they grow-up I suspect they'll want to have freedom of speech, freedom of travel, and freedom to friend whoever they want..... rather than be treated as children for the rest of their lives.)

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    4. Re:The issue is about supervision by hoppo · · Score: 1

      So basically, an entire group of people should be banned from doing something merely because some people in that group may do things that some people do not agree with? You only speak of possibilities here. This is a perfect example of a collective punishment mentality.

      Wrong. This is an example of setting boundaries. It is generally inappropriate for students and teachers to have social relationships. Ethics 101.

    5. Re:The issue is about supervision by Sir_Sri · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In university about half my students in classes will tend to befriend me on facebook (it's a bit less than that but close enough). Anytime anything out of the ordinary happens I posted it on facebook, as well as via e-mail.

      Students are *far* more likely to get a facebook message than they are an e-mail. Lots of them, and, frankly this baffles me because it's the same device, will check facebook on the bus etc. but not e-mail. I suppose that's in part because the university has a habit of sending out a lot of crap that they don't care about, whereas on facebook the information they don't care about now can be easily skimmed over.

      Doing anything 'regular' on facebook, course notes assignments that sort of thing doesn't make a lot of sense. Virtually all universities have some sort of classroom management software (webct/blackboard/sakai etc.) for that stuff, and students need to check that on a daily basis for work stuff. But if class is canceled, or a particular lab is closed, elevator not working, that sort of thing, facebook is much more effective than e-mail. I'm not sure that makes sense in highschool since highschools aren't usually giant tens of thousands of persons campuses with a huge number of people coming and going in dozens of buildings at different times.

      The biggest plus I've found to facebook is when the students graduate you get to know what they're doing. And, importantly, you can connect them to the next batch of students looking for work and so on. One of my students from 3 years ago works at amazon, so I sent him a graduate who's super excited about amazon this year sort of thing. Again, I'm not sure that would make as much sense at the highshool level, although it's always nice to know what your former students are up to.

    6. Re:The issue is about supervision by digitig · · Score: 1

      Wrong. This is an example of setting boundaries. It is generally inappropriate for students and teachers to have social relationships. Ethics 101.

      Why? It's only a problem if you make it a problem. I knew some of my teachers socially because we were part of the same community. Try watching Être et avoir before seeing wrong where there is none.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    7. Re:The issue is about supervision by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 2

      Wrong.

      You say I'm wrong, but then you proceed to state exactly what I just spoke out against. You're just punishing an entire group of people for what a few of them could do. Then you label it as "setting boundaries" as if that will change what it truly is.

      It is generally inappropriate for students and teachers to have social relationships. Ethics 101.

      It's appropriate. Ethics 101. There. My argument is complete, and you are defeated!

    8. Re:The issue is about supervision by TavisJohn · · Score: 1

      E-Mail can just as easily be skimmed over. Several of my sister-in-laws college teachers basically told the class, "I do not use Facebook for school. All school related contact will be done via e-mail. No exceptions."
      They had Facebook accounts, and you could friend them, but any discussions, questions, or classwork was to be sent via e-mail only. Some student's complained, but the teacher wanted what was easier for them.

    9. Re:The issue is about supervision by Vancorps · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I wonder where this idea that teachers shouldn't be part of the lives of students came from. I think all the media attention has overblown the issue so far that people think teachers should just be robots regurgitating facts and giving standardized tests. I remember growing up and teachers in high school would stay late or be part of extracurricular clubs. Hell, I learned Linux through a work shop, we'd all bring in computers and throw on Slack or Red Hat back in the early days. It wasn't an issue for our teacher to be there, he lined up a lot of resources for us.

      As for "needing to friend," no one needs to friend anybody but a lot of people do it and it's a great way to collaborate on homework for schools that don't have the resources for real virtual assistance services. More to the point though, why not? How is a teacher accepting a student as a friend on Facebook detrimental? As stated before, as long as any student who asks gets accepted there is no appearance of impropriety or favoritism.

      This looks like another administration stab at limiting liability rather than trying to protect students or teachers. Fear of lawsuits is the biggest problem with public education, it's also a huge issue with the healthcare system driving up costs for both.

    10. Re:The issue is about supervision by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      When I last read about this type of issue, the proposed law was very clear - is a school district runs a Facebook-like web site that includes the ability to monitor communications between employees (teachers) and customers (students) that was fine.

      That does not sound "fine" to me -- it sounds like you are teaching students that there is some grand authority in the world that watches what they do and who they talk to. That is not something I would want my children to be taught in school.

      Why do teachers need to 'friend' under-age students of theirs?

      Some teachers have "fan clubs" -- I remember seeing that sort of behavior all the time when I was in high school. Telling teachers that they cannot have students friend them on Facebook is basically saying that there cannot be an expression of these fan clubs online.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    11. Re:The issue is about supervision by kiwimate · · Score: 2

      Way too many possibilities, that's the problem. Any time this topic comes up in social discussions everyone in the room agrees it's just dumb. Look, a teacher is an enormous authority figure, and has an extraordinary amount of power. Ever heard of the saying "with great power comes great responsibility"? There's another saying about avoiding even the appearance of impropriety. Teenagers are raging full of hormones and emotions and angst and anger and everything. And they seem compelled to spill hat out on Facebook.

      Forget teacher-student relationships. Have you looked at what teenagers are posting on Facebook? Picures of them drinking underage. Pics of them smoking a joint. Status messages about "my boyfriend dumped me, I'm going to kill myself". Should a teacher do something about that? Will they feel compelled to say something the next day?

      Guess what - a lot of companies frown upon workplace romances. Go ahead and say it's stupid, you wouldn't want to work for such a company, etc., etc. But if professional companies feel it necessary to have policies or even conventions about the relationships between two consenting adults, then it's difficult not to see how that extends down to children.

    12. Re:The issue is about supervision by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 1

      Ever heard of the saying "with great power comes great responsibility"?

      I usually use that when talking about actual threats (like the government). Generally not about teachers friending people on Facebook.

      Have you looked at what teenagers are posting on Facebook?

      I really don't care. All of those seem small-time, common, and irrelevant. They're nothing big, or even surprising.

      Should a teacher do something about that?

      In most cases, there isn't much point. But in a truly serious case, should anyone do something about it?

      then it's difficult not to see how that extends down to children.

      It's not difficult for me at all. I don't care what so-called "professional companies" think.

    13. Re:The issue is about supervision by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Can be - but isn't. that was my point. As an instructor you are certainly under no obligation to even try and use facebook, nor should you if you aren't comfortable doing so. I was merely relaying my single data point of experience.

    14. Re:The issue is about supervision by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      University is not K-12 - this is the NYC Public School System.

      You can't assume that every student in a public school has internet access at home.

      Absolutely, I think I differentiated a number of places where my experience would probably not translate to the non university experience. I specifically said "In university" to clarify I wasn't suggesting my experience applies to dealings with people who aren't adults.

      Have you never heard of the Alumni Relations and Career Development offices at your college? The world somehow functioned before Facebook, and it will some how get by after Facebook is gone...

      I have, have you? Suggesting they're good at building personal relationships doesn't really connect to anything in my experience. I'm sure different countries and schools have different experiences, but around here alumni relations is basically a giant effort to beg for money, and students aren't really interested in spending the next 70 years being harassed for money every quarter because they had the privilege to spend 7k in tuition + 16k in living expenses a year for 4 years at some point in the past. By chance the place I did my undergraduate didn't have my address for about 7 years. Now I get a monthly request for money (which I have never given them), they got my address when I needed transcripts for graduate school. Quite honestly, I'd rather they forgot I exist. Lots of perfectly good people don't want to be bothered their past school.

      Career development is useful, and that's how the first student (who worked at amazon for the last 3 years) go that gig I think. I know one of my students works at microsoft after they did a career fare organized by our career services. But it's never the same as having a personal connection to someone you're applying to.

      Sure, the world will function without facebook, but we have the tools to connect people, so why shouldn't we? Facebook exists because it lets you connect people together. If I tell my current student 'hey, this guy at X would cool to work with, he was a great guy when he was here' and if I say to the referenced former student 'hey, this student of mine is cool you should hire him' whether I use facebook, myspace, instant messaging or future social connection system I don't think that changes advantages of a personal touch.

    15. Re:The issue is about supervision by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 1

      In what world do you live where keeping teachers and students from being friends on Facebook is considered "punishment?"

      What else is it, then? If you want to be pedantic, fine. But it doesn't matter: you're still essentially taking the freedom to do something away from an entire group of people.

      Furthermore, explain to me what is appropriate about child students and adult teachers engaging in social relationships.

      What's inappropriate about it? You're the one advocating for these pointless restrictions. The burden of proof is on you. But "appropriate" is a subjective word to begin with.

      Namely, blurring the boundary of the student-teacher relationship undermines the teacher's authority, and therefore the student's education.

      I've never seen such a thing happen before. You seem to be obsessed with appearance and authority, not actual education. Authority is not education. You can both be friends with them (or at least not act like they're just robots under your command) and still have authority; after all, you do not lose your position of authority.

      Furthermore, I'd like to see a citation.

      These are things you will understand much better when you're a grownup.

      So, I disagree with you, and you resort to personal attacks and assumptions, despite not knowing me at all? You are a sociopath. I know nothing about you, but I'll just throw that out there even if it will just make you less likely to listen to me. What's especially ironic is that some would even consider this type of attack to be "childish" in and of itself.

    16. Re:The issue is about supervision by swillden · · Score: 1

      So basically, an entire group of people should be banned from doing something merely because some people in that group may do things that some people do not agree with?

      Yes.

      IMO, if there's a problem with this policy, it's that it has to be officially articulated at all. It should be obvious to any teacher that it's unprofessional to have social interactions with their students.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    17. Re:The issue is about supervision by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 1

      Besides, if education is your primary concern, then most US public schools are not places you'd want to send your children to begin with. A teacher friending them on Facebook (an action which has no noticeable effect on anything, despite vague objections to the practice) should be the least of your concerns. Robotic teachers are the last thing we need to fix this problem.

    18. Re:The issue is about supervision by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      Very well. Cars have to go; some people commit crimes with cars, after all. The same thing goes for kitchen knives, toys, and pretty much anything one could think of.

      unprofessional

      People keep throwing this ambiguous word out there as if it will spell the end of the argument. It means absolutely nothing, and its true meaning varies from person to person. Is it really "unprofessional"? Why? The real question is, why should the practice be considered bad in all cases? No vague explanations, though.

    19. Re:The issue is about supervision by neyla · · Score: 1

      Are you asserting that only a person who is a distant authority-figure can teach you something ? That once a person is someone you know, perhaps even someone you're friends with, that person is henceforth permanently unable to teach you anything ?

      That's odd. I've had precisely the opposite experience.

    20. Re:The issue is about supervision by quenda · · Score: 1

      Have you looked at what teenagers are posting on Facebook? Picures of them drinking underage. Pics of them smoking a joint. Status messages about "my boyfriend dumped me, I'm going to kill myself". Should a teacher do something about that?

      Teachers are not vice police. But if girl is threatening suicide, it would hardly hurt for the teachers to be aware.

    21. Re:The issue is about supervision by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Obviously teachers can't be trusted around students. Forget banning "friending" them. We should just not allow teachers and students to interact at all.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    22. Re:The issue is about supervision by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 1

      It seems you missed my point. I can say, "Ethics 101 says X." That doesn't make it a good thing. It's just an appeal to authority.

    23. Re:The issue is about supervision by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Kenh should be banned from slashdot. Why do kenhs need to 'post' on slashdot? And no, arguing that this is how kenh wants to spend his time isn't good enough, there are too many alternatives for kenh to spend time, bandwidth etc.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  7. Idiotic Luddite shitheads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why don't you also ban teachers from talking to students if they see them in a mall or on the street? This smacks of some luddite shithead who dislikes Facebook deciding on behalf of other people who should use it and how they should use it.

    The real issue is that people use their personal social networking accounts to broadcast inappropriate information to all their "friends" (who are really aquaintances). I'm afraid that's dangerous no matter what your profession. 200+ people do NOT need to know that you got drunk, took drugs, got laid, are depressed, like inappropriate jokes, hate work, that your kid vomited, or that your pet did something cute. Thing is it should be self-policed, not regulated.

    So what happens if the Facebook profile is public? Is the teacher automatically fired? And if it's not public how the hell do you police this? How do you determine a breach has occurred? Do you force them to reveal their passwords to you regularly? Do you force all students? Are we talking NYC or China here? Perhaps you want teachers to stay off the social networks. Anti-social teachers are the new gold standard.

    The sad thing is teachers who use social media for outreach, to post interesting things, to share education resources....they just get left out in the cold because they are drowned out by the hoard of immature ego-centric Facebook addicted teachers with no life who won't use any resource appropriately no matter how you govern it.

    Collectively we all get what we deserve...and at the moment that is a society in steep decline.

    1. Re:Idiotic Luddite shitheads by bmo · · Score: 1

      Why is this modded flamebait?

      Because of foul language? He brings some valid points to the discussion.

      Especially this: So what happens if the Facebook profile is public? Is the teacher automatically fired?

      Yeah, I would like to know too.

      To whoever modded this flamebait: untwist your panties, and undo your mod.

      --
      BMO

    2. Re:Idiotic Luddite shitheads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have to wonder if the people (like yourself) who seem to be most worried about teachers going after 14-year-olds are really just projecting.

    3. Re:Idiotic Luddite shitheads by icebike · · Score: 1

      Given you are posting AC, and hand waiving the problem away, I suspect your 7th grade girlfriend is really familiar with the back seat of your 82 toyota.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    4. Re:Idiotic Luddite shitheads by bmo · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes, the baseless accusation of paedophilia on the Internet.

      The last refuge of the scoundrel.

      You have a low user number, but that doesn't make you smart or insightful

      --
      BMO

    5. Re:Idiotic Luddite shitheads by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 1

      Everyone is a pedophile. Especially if they looked into a child's eyes, physically touched a child, talked to a child, or even had a child!

      If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. If you disagree with me, that also means you're a pedophile!

    6. Re:Idiotic Luddite shitheads by bmo · · Score: 1

      Accusations of paedophilia on the Internet by anon cunts are less than worthless.

      --
      BMO

    7. Re:Idiotic Luddite shitheads by bmo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >Seriously, how can an intelligent person equate a meeting in a mall or on the street with a stream of clandestine facebook messages between "dreamy" Mr Larson and your 14 year old daughter?

      Seriously, the key to the Constitution is "protect the children"

      Never mind the fact that my 6'th grade science teacher ran off with one of his students to another state where marrying her was legal.

      In the 80s.

      This is scapegoating the Internet for something that has gone on for centuries and shame on you for falling for it.

      --
      BMO

    8. Re:Idiotic Luddite shitheads by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Seriously, how can an intelligent person equate a meeting in a mall or on the street with a stream of clandestine facebook messages between "dreamy" Mr Larson and your 14 year old daughter?

      That is not how I read this situation. I see the city trying to ensure that a common phenomenon in high schools and even middle schools will not be paraded around for all the world to see: teachers who have "fan clubs" of students. My guess is that the city was worried about parents complaining about such things, especially when their perfect angels who are not in the fan club do not get those A+ grades they "deserve."

      You know why I think this is not really about students and teachers having sex? The city did not issue rules on text messaging, despite there being more incidents involving cell phones than social networking sites.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    9. Re:Idiotic Luddite shitheads by bmo · · Score: 1

      Because while transporting a minor to another state to have sex with her under different state age of consent is a felony as defined by the Mann Act.

      How he did not run afoul of the Mann Act is beyond me, but he was never prosecuted.

      She eventually divorced him when she grew up.

      --
      BMO

  8. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's stated on page 4 of the document, section E, article 1, just after the (a). The provision that communication over personal accounts may not occur between teachers and students is subject to an exception in the case of relatives.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  9. the days when we were not all afraid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I went to school in the 1960's, and obviously social networking and the internet were not a factor. I can't say there were any fewer problems then, but the major difference I see is that were not all afraid.

    I'm sure there were unethical and inappropriate contacts between teachers and students then just as now, but it seems like if there was a problem, it was dealt with, but we didn't feel the need to live paranoid lives where everyone was a potential predator and rules about who could talk to who, when, and where had to be put all over the place. If you wanted to see a teacher 1:1 outside of school, you were free to do that. Some students did who were having family problems, sometimes with abusive parents, and they had no one else to turn to.

    These days... everyone is afraid of their shadows. How the world has changed.

    1. Re:the days when we were not all afraid. by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're paranoid of the statistically unlikely. There aren't pedophiles and evil teachers hiding behind every corner.

    2. Re:the days when we were not all afraid. by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 2

      Wait till 2629837 seems like a low number here on Slash Dot and you have a 14 year old daughter of your own. I suspect your view will change radically.

      You seem to be assuming I don't already have a kid. I do. Frankly, I'm insulted that you'd insinuate that people become retarded once they have children.

    3. Re:the days when we were not all afraid. by Amouth · · Score: 2

      It's not willful blindness but rather it's recognizing facts.

      So lets look here:
      http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/sex-offender-map.pdf

      So for some arm chair math.. lets say you have (what seems to be the upper but of the mid block) and keep it round.. and say worst case is 300 per 100,000 people.

      so 0.3% of the pollution is a sex offender, keep in mind this list does not filter only for pedos but also has rapists and people of that nature.

      So then we look here:
      http://www.statemaster.com/graph/edu_ele_sec_tot_tea_percap-secondary-total-teachers-per-capita#source

      Pretty much the average is at least 1% of the population are teachers of some type.

      If given that ALL sex offenders where also teachers and all sex offenders where pedos you could in theory have 1 in 3 teachers be a pedo. But i'd have to say you'd have to be extremely paranoid to think that.

      There is also this whole train of thought about how do you prevent things from happening by analyzing what is going on, that i believe is completely missing from this rational of though/policy.. If a teacher makes a student a friend or not will not effect the decision by the student to or not to "groom" the student, and if they are going to do it this will not stop them, might make it harder but will not stop them. The trade off comes down to the value of "making it harder" and the lost benefits/constraints placed on people. And in this case you are now declaring that ONLY pedo's would do this action and there for if you are doing it we can't trust you, and honestly i doubt that is a good way of looking at it. I'd be hard pressed to believe that if a teach where to "friend" a student on face book and then groom them through that, that it would be the only method or sign that they are doing it, and i highly doubt that it would be the most obvious one either.

      To that point i think they would be better off leaving it be and then monitoring the other "signs" what ever they are and then use the data we all know is stored and never lost on face book as source of evidence to investigate and hopefully convict the few actual pedos out there.

      Again it's not "willful blindness" it's recognizing facts and coming to terms with reality..

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
  10. More idiocy. by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 2

    This collective punishment mentality is great.

  11. Re:no fun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Free lifelong healthcare, 3 months / year of paid vacation, tenure / unable to be fired, defined benefit pension courtesy of the productive members of society tax dollars.

  12. Even though it shoud probably not be illegal... by couchslug · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ....using social networks is still vain and silly.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    1. Re:Even though it shoud probably not be illegal... by Hentes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But it's a medium that the kids use, so if a teacher wants to effectively communicate them it seems like an obvious choice.

    2. Re:Even though it shoud probably not be illegal... by treeves · · Score: 2

      or you could tell them what you want them to know ...when they're in class. It worked fine in the 'old days'.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    3. Re:Even though it shoud probably not be illegal... by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      I really am not sure if using Facebook would be a positive thing or not. However, there are a lot of discussions about how schools are failing to leverage technology to help students learn and teachers teach. Is cutting off a possible tool really the smartest thing to do?

  13. But... by evil_aaronm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The rules also state that teachers have no expectation of privacy online, and that principals and other officials will inspect teachers' profiles.

    How does this square with the federal legislation wending its way through the system that would prevent employers from looking at social networking data of employees?

    Oddly, the rules do not address communication involving cell phones, which the Department of Education's own investigations have shown to be even more problematic.

    I'll say. My small community had a teacher busted for sexting a student. And when I was a kid, way back before the 'net and cell phones, there were rumors that certain teachers would give certain students "extra-curricular" attention. One teacher in our local district ended up marrying a student. It happened after the student graduated, but there were rumors that "stuff" was going on between them while the student was still in school.

    I'm not sure technology has much to do with it: if teachers and students really want to hook up, they'll find a way.

    1. Re:But... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      The rules also state that teachers have no expectation of privacy online, and that principals and other officials will inspect teachers' profiles.

      How does this square with the federal legislation wending its way through the system that would prevent employers from looking at social networking data of employees?

      Well, historically, a lot of legislation of this sort has had an exception for government employees.

      Which, if it's not obvious, public school teachers are....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  14. Re:Lawsuit time by GuldKalle · · Score: 1

    It's a guideline, not a law.

    --
    What?
  15. Freedom of Association much? by Galestar · · Score: 1

    This is quite obviously unconstitutional

    --
    AccountKiller
    1. Re:Freedom of Association much? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      I guess you didn't pass the section on the Constitution. "Freedom of Association" isn't mentioned there.

    2. Re:Freedom of Association much? by Fned · · Score: 2

      I guess you didn't pass the section on the Constitution. "Freedom of Association" isn't mentioned there.

      It's an inherent prerequisite for freedom of assembly. See NAACP v. Alabama.

      You can argue "judicial activism" if you want, but you'd then also have to argue that assembly is somehow possible without association, which would be a neat trick...

    3. Re:Freedom of Association much? by Galestar · · Score: 1

      #1 I am not American. We do not have a "section on the American Constitution", we have a section on *our* constitution
      #2 I still apparently know your constitution/laws better than you since Freedom of Association is inherent in Freedom of Assembly ever since NAACP v. Alabama.
      #3 FYI My country's constitution has Freedom of Association written explicitly into it. So much for your constitution being divine/America being the shining city on the hill - your personal freedoms are at the mercy of your judicial branch.

      I guess *you* didn't pass *your* section on the Constitution (assuming you're American - which judging by your automatic assumption that everyone else is, is probably a pretty safe assumption)

      --
      AccountKiller
    4. Re:Freedom of Association much? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      #1 I am not American. We do not have a "section on the American Constitution", we have a section on *our* constitution

      So you are admitting you know nothing about the topic. Nice.

      #2 I still apparently know your constitution/laws better than you since Freedom of Association is inherent in Freedom of Assembly ever since NAACP v. Alabama.

      Evidently not since all NAACP v. Alabama ruled was that a private organization doesn't have to divulge it's membership list, and used the due process clause under the 14th amendment as it's justification, and invoked that due process as referring to the Right of Assembly which is tied to the right of Free Speech.

      From http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Freedom+of+Association+and+Assembly

      "General types of association unrelated to First Amendment rights are not protected by the Constitution. For instance, in City of Dallas v. Stanglin, 490 U.S. 19, 109 S. Ct. 1591, 104 L. Ed. 2d 18 (1989), the Court held that a city ordinance limiting adult entrance into teenage dance halls did not violate the associational rights of either the adults or the minors. The association of adults and minors in a social setting does not fall within the purview of any rights protected by the First Amendment and therefore is not a constitutionally protected activity."

      Notice the similarity of this to our topic.

      So once AGAIN you FAIL on matters regarding the US Constitutional, and in fact your statement that this is clearly unconstitutional, which it is obviously not.

      FYI My country's constitution has Freedom of Association written explicitly into it. So much for your constitution being divine/America being the shining city on the hill - your personal freedoms are at the mercy of your judicial branch.

      You are making me roll on the floor with laughter. You guys didn't even have a Bill of Rights as part of your Constitution until 1982. You still can't run an national election properly that isn't severely in doubt of its validity. Fact: the US has had a Bill of Rights as part of it's Constitution some 200 years longer than you have.

      I guess *you* didn't pass *your* section on the Constitution (assuming you're American - which judging by your automatic assumption that everyone else is, is probably a pretty safe assumption)

      This web site is US based. The vast majority of its participants are Americans. This is a story which would normally have little or no international interest. Why the hell wouldn't I assume you were American? Except maybe by your ignorance of these matters?

  16. Re:In this thread.... by Local+ID10T · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Slashdotters who overwhelmingly reject the usefulness of Facebook and consider it a useless marketing platform that only idiots would use will communicate their furious anger that somebody would dare to tell someone they can't use Facebook however they wish.

    Welcome to the USA. Just because only an idiot would want to doesn't mean that those same idiots shouldn't be allowed to.

    --
    "You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
  17. Why would a teacher want kids as friends anyway? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 2

    I worked at a high school for a couple years and I wanted my job and the kids kept far apart. You friend your students and now they're a part of your social life whether you like it or not. Anything anyone else does on your list is now associated with your career as a teacher, and that could be extremely disruptive to your classroom. It annoyed me to no end to go out for a night on the town and see underage girls who the bouncers had allowed in (they'd scurry like cockroaches when they saw a teacher).

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  18. Rules? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "rules" for teachers. I'm sorry, but until they become LAWS for teachers, that has been passed through a state congress and and the Gov. they can frankly go eff themselves. "teachers have no expectation of privacy online, and that principals and other officials will inspect teachers' profiles" They better only be talking about inspecting what is available to the public because they have absolutely NO right to ask for or acquisition your password or ask you to log in for them. If you're friends with them that's a different story. Teachers should have the same rights as the rest of us. If you have an issue with someones facebook, get yourself a warent.

    1. Re:Rules? by mark-t · · Score: 1

      ... because they have absolutely NO right to ask for or acquisition your password or ask you to log in for them.

      Until there's a law prohibiting it, they do... and they even have the right to fire you if you refuse.

      Yes, I know a law is currently in the pipe for this... but until it passes, employers can probably still do this.

    2. Re:Rules? by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      Until there's a law prohibiting it, they do...

      Not sure if that's a valid argument. I suppose they can also ask you to install cameras in your home until there is a law forbidding it? Can they ask for the password to your bank account? Ask for a copy of your house an car keys? Install a GPS in your private car?

      None of these things belong to them, and they don't have a right to them unless there is a valid contract between them and the employee expressly granting them that right. Of course, if you live in a state with no employment protection and few jobs, then the employer can abuse that situation.

  19. Seems easy enough to work around... by aklinux · · Score: 1

    The school itself could have a page and set up associated Group pages for the different classes (and Chess Club, etc) and have the appropriate teacher be the administrator of the individual group pages.

  20. Re:Lawsuit time by J'raxis · · Score: 1

    In technical parlance, it's probably an "administrative rule" and if it's being put forth by a public entity as a binding policy, it's just as susceptible to a lawsuit as an actual law.

  21. Why? by Githaron · · Score: 1

    I still don't get why people are trying to legislate rules ban teachers from "friending" students on social media sites. Shouldn't that be between the teacher, the parents, and the student? Why can't teachers and students be friends?

  22. Not a bad idea at the university level either. by sdavid · · Score: 1

    Friending your students on Facebook makes your page public for all practical purposes. It's really easy, as a university professor, to find that your work and teaching life intrudes just a little too much on your private life, and I imagine the same is true for high school teachers, for example. I keep Facebook for real-life friends and a few colleagues. However, it is very important to students to have some form of contact with you that is outside the university environment. A little while ago, I broke down and set up a Linkedin profile, and my students are welcome to connect with me there.

  23. Re:Why would you even want to? by BootysnapChristAlive · · Score: 1

    is a high risk behavior.

    Explain further.

    Hopefully you're not one of those people who think there are child molesters hiding behind every corner. And if you're afraid of unlikely catastrophic consequences, don't ride in cars, planes, or do much of anything, as you're putting yourself and others at risk by doing so.

    I tend to be as socially libertarian as you can get

    How fickle.

  24. Re:Not new? by sexconker · · Score: 1

    We've had 'rules' like this in Ontario (at least my school board) since I joined high school. You have to wait until you leave the school to friend your teachers. They explain it as affecting the teachers opinion on a student (Or the other way around). At are school Facebook is unblocked and we have facebook groups for classes, but teachers make different accounts for those things.

    Shitting in the teacher's coffee and turning in your homework on time both affect the teacher's opinion of a student.
    I should be allowed to do both or neither.

  25. Why only to teachers? Why implement at all? by Ardyvee · · Score: 1

    Well... considering most facebook users (me included! D:) accept and send friend request from almost everyone even if they do not know the person, that they end up accepting/sending a friend request to a teacher seems rather unimportant. Might as well start by teaching people to not accept friend request by people they don't know and using privacy settings correctly (and beware of the consequences.

    Now. Do not get me wrong. I am not in favour of harmful relationships between students and teachers (by harmful, well, you intend what you want by that). I am also aware for such relationships it is needed at least two willing parties (unless somebody is forcing somebody else, in which case it is another case). But I am not in favour of "just because I decided to be a formal teacher" I can't use social networks like everybody else. Please, do note the use of "formal". Your mother teaches you things. You learn from your friends. Some may even learn from a stranger in a bar whom they just happened to meet by chance. What about the young adults that explain math (and other subjects) to teenagers for a bit of cash? Of course, they don't fit in the definition of teacher that teaches in a school (thus why the "formal teacher"). My point is, formal teachers - unlike most like to think - are humans who have their own problems, who work like everybody else (who has a job). The only difference is that their job is to pass on knowledge from their generation to the next one. Sure, it'd be bad for what's supposed to be the role model of your kids (wait, you're supposed to be the role model of your kids!!!!!!!) doing some rather questionable actions (but smoking is alright, because students already do it anyway), but then as a human you should NEVER engage in such behaviour in front of kids, or anyone, since you never know when they might be passing by.

    I just find this rather unfair for teachers, considering they already have to put up with today's kids and get around putting something in their heads. And going beyond the teacher profession, you should also prevent medical doctors from friending patients. I mean, a rather large number of professions would need such restrictions.

    --
    I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
  26. Shuddup about the constituition by gatfirls · · Score: 1

    These are *rules* and *guidelines* written by an employer for their employees. Tons of workplaces have rules/guidelines against certain types of fraternization. I wouldn't want my kids teacher(s) being "friends" with them online anymore than I would want them to go hang out at the mall together. Some relationships should stay "professional" and teacher student is one of them.

    1. Re:Shuddup about the constituition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is a line between Rules for Employment and infringing on your rights. Basically what you're saying is that it's not ok for teachers to include their students in their personal lives but it is ok for their employer to dictate what they can and can't do with their personal life. You know what, yes bad things could happen. But you know what else could happen? Good things. You have to remember that social networks go both ways. This could help give teachers better insite into their students lives. Maybe learn of abuse or neglect happening at home through a facebook status. Things they wouldn't learn in the few hours they spend with the kids every day. Having a personal connection with a teacher isn't a bad thing. It depends on the teacher. Ultimately, I think it should be up to the parents to decide, not the Government. My main concern is that schools will abuse this and attempt to go poking around in peoples accounts with no justification and that is wrong.

  27. Been here, done this by Starfleet+Command · · Score: 1

    Other states have tried this and it was challenged and ruled unconstitutional, or impolite, or in violation of the Temporal Prime Directive or something like that. When are they going to learn that people have private lives and they just can not inject their rules into every aspect of those lives. Also, my daughter (high school Senior) has several of her teachers on her Facebook friends list and I am totally cool with this. For one, the teachers generally use the lists to get school messages out to the students, reminders of practices etc. And the up side is that they are visible to me. I would much prefer that they post to her Facebook then have them texting her.

  28. Re:no fun by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

    why was this guy moded troll they do get healthcare, 3 months of paid vacation and tenure what other job has tenure? and because of unions if they have been employed long enough it is impossible to fire a teacher unless you fire every teacher that has been employed after them. that was a problem they had at my old high school they had several bad teachers that they could not fire because they would have fir everyone else firs because their union contracts stipulated it. and most teacher do work for public schools which are paid for with tax dollars. where was this guy wrong?

    --
    ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
  29. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Amouth · · Score: 1

    is subject to an exception in the case of relatives.

    So is it a sold defense that both religion and science believe we all have the same family tree and there for are all related? i know one half of my family tree is exceptionally wide and we can follow it back ~150 years and many generation, and they are all "related"..

    i know i'm being nit picky by why not when you have things like this that try to have a work place govern the personal lives of people outside work.

    --
    '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
  30. OK with this? by drooling-dog · · Score: 2

    Actually, if I were a teacher, I think I'd be OK with this. If you friend a few of your students, then you'd have to friend all of them in order to avoid the appearance of favoritism, and if other teachers were doing it there would be pressure to do it yourself as well. So, instead of having to say, "No, you can't be my friend," you can simply cite the law.

    1. Re:OK with this? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Really it doesn't make sense. You can have teachers and students members of the same sports and social clubs, teachers who are after hours coaches, teachers who are members of guides and scouts.

      This is really pushing the bounds of making all one on one student teacher contacts risky and being perceived as potentially sexually abusive.

      Some adults will abuse any kind of contact with children, crazy over-reaction and banning any contact situation that a bad adult has abused is utterly pointless ie. adult wanders street at night, breaks into home kidnaps child, idiot knee jerk reaction, immediate curfew for all adults not allowed to walk streets after dark.

      Adults not allowed physical contact with children without parents permission, sounds fine. Reality adult comes across child with broken leg from bicycle fall, adult leaves child in agony to find a pay phone because they don't have a cell phone.

      Most adults are responsible, attempting to ban all possible adult child interactions because of a few that will abuse them is ludicrous. That kind of crazy thinking could lead to things like, having to remove shoves and belts, naked scans and, sexual probes for possible illegal items, ohh that's right, 'Chicken shite Amerika'.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    2. Re:OK with this? by mpe · · Score: 1

      Really it doesn't make sense. You can have teachers and students members of the same sports and social clubs, teachers who are after hours coaches, teachers who are members of guides and scouts.

      You also have situations students and teachers are close relatives. The way this is generally addressed is by people wearing different "hats" even having different "identities" depending on circumstances at the time. This is something most people are able to do without even being especially aware that they are doing this. But it's something "social media" (possibly deliberatly) dosn't appear to understand very well.
      Note that in the first two examples it is possible for a "student" to be senior to the "teacher" within the club. Even for the two roles to be reversed.

  31. Re:no fun by Vancorps · · Score: 3, Informative

    In what world do you live in where teachers in NYC get lifelong healthcare or tenure? They can be "fired" at the drop of a hat simply by not renewing their contract. I have no idea where this image of teachers comes from. Also, pensions don't exist for the majority of new teachers. Most of this information is 20 years out of date.

  32. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    There's a very easy rebuttal to the Libertarian argument that government employees' personal lives shouldn't be regulated at least a little: it affects the teachers' professional relationships with their students and how they interact with them. Wouldn't you want the same policies applied to politicians to prevent them from developing relationships with that one nice guy who just so happens to be a lobbyist for a major kitten-puppy-bunny murder conglomerate? The potential for corruption is somewhat reduced in the case of a teacher with students, but educators are still the public face of the school and can destroy its reputation (and budget) by such misbehaviour. Any highly interpersonal job with such high visibility should demand some professionalism in its employees' conduct.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  33. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by i_ate_god · · Score: 2

    Unfortunately, this is not something should have to be governed in the first place.

    Teachers can not be friends with students. They have to be leaders and educators, not friends. There are numerous other examples of hierarchical structures where inter-hierarchy friendship is generally... a bad idea.

    --
    I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
  34. OK, we get it: you have a daughter by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2

    So your parental instincts kick in, and all those little cues the media has given you about the dangers that await your daughter if she so much as leaves your home have come to define your reality.

    Here is what I will grant you: pedophiles do exist. Sometimes teachers are pedophiles, and they use their position of power to take advantage of their victims. Fortunately, that is not a very common situation, despite what the news media tells you, and most teachers really do care about their students (in an appropriate way).

    Unfortunately, the moral panic of the 1980s -- which resulted in the imprisonment of at least hundreds of innocent people, if not more -- has not entirely subsided.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
  35. So the next burning question is... by tlambert · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Does Khan Academy http://www.khanacademy.org/ count as a "social network" according to the New York City Department of Education?

    -- Terry

    1. Re:So the next burning question is... by Mufasa_ooh_sayitagai · · Score: 1

      That is a very good point. Include in that all sites that have a profile... youtube... slashdot... etc. Actually, if Google gets their way it will include the entire Internet.

  36. I'm curious about one thing. by BitterOak · · Score: 2
    This rule, mentioned in the summary has me wondering:

    The rules also state that teachers have no expectation of privacy online, and that principals and other officials will inspect teachers' profiles.

    Does this mean that teachers will be required to accept friend requests from principals or other superior school officials so they can inspect their Facebook profiles and examine their friends lists? I understand having no expectation of privacy online as far as publicly posted material goes, but will teachers be required to give their superiors special access? For my own Facebook profile, if you're not a friend, all you can see is my name and profile pic, nothing else. I'm curious if teachers would be required to make more available to their superiors under this rule.

    --
    If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
  37. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Amouth · · Score: 2

    And that doesn't apply to just teachers - your right the responsibility for professionalism applies to everyone, teachers, politicians, doctors, police, you, me, every single person.

    But at what point to we need to make rules/laws and punish people? Normally the limit is placed at the point where the person crosses the line and has legitimacy done something wrong, but i feel in this case you may have far less than 1% of the time that this action is inappropriate, and therefor they are at the point of punishing people for doing something that isn't wrong. Now i saw there is wording for it being on a "personal" account vs a "official" account, and in that respect i might agree with this. It is along the same lines as a personal/corporate e-mail and the ethical behavior of using them. But even then the problem i see is the every legit and not unprofessional friendships that can form between students and teachers, hell i ended up going to work for one of them for a short bit and i know people that where their students that still do 15 years later.

    --
    '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
  38. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes god forbid that they should not be indoctrinated into the hierarchical order. They might get to thinking that all men are equal or some other such stupidity. And it would be a truly terrible thing if a younger person develops a friendship with a more mature person and as a result they picked up some of the maturity themselves.
    Provided these relationships are not secret, where is the harm? If you do not trust students and teachers to behave responsibly then what do you see happening when the world is run by the students that have been taught by those teachers. If you think you can't trust anybody to act responsibly and think that more authority is the answer to this then who do you envisage administering this authority and why do you think you can trust them any more than anyone else?

  39. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    Generally you need to police behaviour in two cases: (a) when the people being hired have no sense of social responsibility or (b) when the hierarchy over their heads is so oppressive, bureaucratic, and unloved that they resent it and do not believe the importance of its image exceeds their desires. Guess which one is more likely to apply to people who deliberately chose to enter a career that's basically nothing but social responsibility?

    Predictably, this describes almost everything in the US.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  40. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Amouth · · Score: 1

    I wish you hadn't posted AC, it's not often you find people with common sense posting..

    --
    '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
  41. They tried this in Missouri by Stephenmg · · Score: 2

    and everyone from the teacher unions to the ACLU started to file law suits until it was repealed. I work for a Missouri school district IT department and this is a big issue right now. The two biggest issues is what counts a social networking site, a lot of the web classroom programs share social networking aspects. The other issue is it is impossible to enforce unless someone rats them out or its discovered after the teacher did something else.

  42. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by yakovlev · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The actual guidelines for personal social media are far too strict.

    The guidelines say no DOE employee my have any social media contact with any DOE student who they are not related to. This effectively means that ALL DOE employees may not user personal accounts to communicate on social media sites with ANY student under 18 living in their district boundaries.

    So, if you're a kindergarten teacher with a 17 year old son, it is not appropriate to use social media to (for instance) plan a birthday party for your son.

    While I understand why the district might want the rule to be so broad (read: simplicity and lawsuits), it is so broad as to be nearly meaningless, and will likely be ignored in many cases where it shouldn't be. Much more sensible would have been guidelines such as:
    "It is inappropriate to use personal social media to communicate with any student for which the employee has a direct supervisory role or has had a direct supervisory role in the preceding two(2) academic years. For example, teachers may not use personal social media to communicate with their students or students of other teachers in their teaching team. School administrative employees may not use personal social media to communicate with students who attend their school. It is strongly recommended that any DOE employee using personal social media to communicate with a student not subject to the above guidelines receive prior consent from the student's parent or guardian and review their communication with the student's parent or guardian regularly."

    While my set of guidelines seems strict, it should be sufficient as the consent and review provisions did not specify "in writing" and so can be done verbally. It also isn't so broad as to outlaw usage that is clearly reasonable. More importantly, such rules are more likely to be followed when it appears that the administrators made an attempt to really codify the appropriate and inappropriate uses, and didn't just take a "personal use of social media is evil" stance.

  43. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by icebike · · Score: 1

    First you say:

    The guidelines say no DOE employee my have any social media contact with any DOE student who they are not related to.

    Then you say:

    So, if you're a kindergarten teacher with a 17 year old son, it is not appropriate to use social media to (for instance) plan a birthday party for your son.

    Which leaves me questioning my reading comprehension, or yours.

    Care to try again?

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  44. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    The part you're missing is "Hey, do you want to come to your classmate's birthday? Oh wait, you can't, because I'm a teacher at another school."

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  45. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    ...or rather, "oh wait, I can't invite you."

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  46. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by icebike · · Score: 1

    Yup, missed the word Invite, saw the word Plan.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  47. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    It's an appeal to evolutionary success—which is a perfectly valid thing to appeal to. Good education is not bread and circuses by any stretch of the imagination; it prevents that.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  48. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    Yeah, there's the trick. Planning includes inviting. Probably a minor cultural difference in there.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  49. Crazy by s0nicfreak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Parents don't trust these teachers to not molest their children through the internet, yet they leave their children in classrooms physically inches away from these teachers for hours 5 days a week. If you do not trust these people completely, why would you leave your child with them?!

  50. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    Huh? Education of children is a social responsibility because without someone being responsible for it, society would collapse. Other social responsibilities include helping those in need, defending from invaders, and keeping living and working areas from overflowing with trash. All of these tasks (well, garbage collection less so) bestow trust on the individuals carrying them out (the ability to warp childrens' minds, resources to distribute to the poor, weapons to fend off enemies, the means to deposit garbage at a given location, etc.) The only alternative to trusting these people to carry out their duties altruistically (or, according to Objectivism, for the benefit of their society) is to mandate that they must not misuse their positions for personal or other reasons.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  51. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Moofie · · Score: 1

    I read it to mean that it would be against the rules to contact your son's friends via your personal account.

    --
    Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  52. Blaming the medium instead of the offender by mitchy · · Score: 1

    Go ahead and make social networks off-limits to teaching staff. The few teachers that are willing to have inappropriate relationships with their students are going to stop, because hey, everyone follows the rules, right?

    On a separate note, I coach football with athletes at the high school level. If I couldn't talk to them over Facebook, then we'd be unable to reschedule a practice, give directions to the next game, etc. I'd be happy to set up a mailing list but the kids refuse to use anything other than Facebook. It is an essential medium, even if some of us consider it a necessary evil.

    The unpleasant alternative is to expect 58 text messages the next time it rains, and have to respond to each and every one separately. Not looking forward to it; and texting students directly via a private channel would be more problematic than discussing as part of a public group...

    What problem are we trying to solve, again?

    --
    "The mind is a terrible thing to, um, uh, oh bollocks." -- Me
  53. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    Okay.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  54. Won't somebody please think of the adults? by feldhaus · · Score: 1

    These are guidelines, rather than rules, and I suspect they reflect existing policies at individual schools. Unifying standards between institutions is a good thing.

    Social media can be put to constructive use through formal pages, groups and so on (as reflected by the guidance) but befriending students online is really not very professional.

    Child protection guidelines are fundamentally there to protect children, yes, but let's not forget that they are as much about protecting adults from allegations made by nefarious (or simply misunderstanding) kids by making it difficult for teachers to put themselves in compromising positions.

    It's partly for this reason that schools and youth organisations have internal rules and regulations that say, for example, that driving a student home on your own is something you really shouldn't plan to do. Guidance covering responsible use of the Internet is just an extension to this

    That said, I think that telling teachers to have "no expectation of privacy" really oversteps the mark.

  55. Simple by fireylord · · Score: 1

    I suspect it was the section where he implied that teachers are not productive members of society, and that they dont also pay taxes.
    The anti union rhetoric in your post gives away your viewpoint, by the way.

  56. The answer is simple by fireylord · · Score: 1

    If the school sees value in their Faculty having contact with their students on social networking sites then the school needs official presence on the social networking sites. I dont know if it is possible for a teacher to have, say, their own personal account, and for them also to have the use of an official, monitorable, account tied to their school, and representing the position they hold at the school. the result would be that for example an English department teacher would have an official English teacher #3 (maybe give them better titles than that, cant think of one without more coffee) account.

      My rationale for this runs thus: Having their tutors available on the media with which the children interact the most and the freest would mean that their teachers are much more approachable/available to assist in that parts of their education or lives which may need the most assistance. Also, this would be a two way street, and teachers would be able to use the official account that they have been assigned to communicate to their pupils en masse or individually as required whilst maintaining a both a safeguard against abuse, and a firewall between the teachers' private lives and circle of social contacts, and their pupils. Using the school's own website for this would not be as beneficial as the kids won't already be acclimatised to using that.

  57. Agreed by fireylord · · Score: 1

    and a nonlow uid is not the sign of being wet behind the ears. Its not like low uid bigotry is anything new on slashdot however...

  58. Well by fireylord · · Score: 1

    I agree on the usefulness of Failbook, however The Kids are into it nowadays. The Kids are in fact a teacher's job, so the issue is relevant.

  59. Of course! by fireylord · · Score: 1

    You CAN do both!
    however there are consequences for both, too. YMMV of course, and I dont think that scat fetishists are entirely precluded from becoming teachers...

  60. In Other News... by Dean+Edmonds · · Score: 1

    A couple of teachers who have run into students on the street ended up in improper relationships with them, so the New York City Department of Education is preparing to ban teachers from using any sidewalks which are also used by students.

    --

    -deane

  61. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by i_ate_god · · Score: 1

    "Unfortunately, this is not something should have to be governed in the first place." -- i_ate_god

    We shouldn't need to have more authority, there should be some common sense.

    And anyways, why would you trust them? Or anyone else? Human beings are human beings, and are more than capable of making irresponsible, irrational decisions. It's part of what makes humanity what it is. Thus, when you have a group of people whose fate rests in the hands of their leader (soldiers -> captain, students -> teacher, employees -> boss, so on and so forth), then when members of that group start developing personal relationships with that leader, platonic or otherwise, it has a strong chance to negatively affect the rest of the group (preferential treatment), because that's how humans are.

    --
    I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
  62. Facebook's fault by vawwyakr · · Score: 1

    Thank god inappropriate relationships never occurred pre-facebook. All we have to do is get back to the good old days....

  63. Note PERSONAL accounts by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

    so a teacher could have a SCHOOL account (which is tapped logged and filed) and could friend any students they wanted to

    So John Smith could have an account John Smith (his personal account) and also have a SCHOOL account John SmithRRHS were he friends all of his students (and the admins and such).

    --
    Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    1. Re:Note PERSONAL accounts by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

      A single person having more than one account violates Facebook's TOS. One or both accounts could be deactivated at any time, without warning.

      Not to mention there's no proper way to create a paper trail of your Facebook activities. What exactly are you suggesting when you say "tapped logged and filed"? How would you do that?

    2. Re:Note PERSONAL accounts by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      not a paper trial but im sure that FACEBOOK would be able to give a complete log to anybody that needed one

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    3. Re:Note PERSONAL accounts by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

      I meant "paper trail" in the non-literal sense; an electronic record would be adequate.

      However, what you're suggesting is that a school district / teacher would have to rely on Facebook getting its shit together and providing data if or when a teacher is accused of wrongdoing. That's not a very ideal position for them to be in.

  64. wait until after graduation by peter303 · · Score: 2

    A teacher and student still at the same are not appropriate friends until either leaves the school.

    1. Re:wait until after graduation by rilian4 · · Score: 2

      Your statement is over-broad. In general, you might be correct but what if, for example, that teacher has kids that are best friends with a student in the school s/he teaches in? What if that teacher is something like a scout-master and interacts w/ students that way outside of school? What if they wish to use social media in those ways? Why would that be wrong all of a sudden? I could go on all day with examples...

      The problem here is in defining a non-harmful action (in this case friending someone through social media) as criminal simply because it *might* lead to a harmful criminal action (inappropriate physical/sexual relationship). This entire line of thinking has handcuffed American society for decades and taken away freedoms constantly. The government should not interfere (at any level, fed, state or local) with citizens lives unless harm has been done to a citizen by another citizen (that harm can take many forms...financial, physical, sexual, etc).

      --

      ...quicker, easier, more seductive the darkside is...but more powerful, it is not.
  65. Stop banging your students by gelfling · · Score: 1

    That is all. Carry on.

  66. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by yakovlev · · Score: 1

    Exactly. You can't use social media to invite the friends to the party, or to discuss the party in any way.

    The rules as stated are ridiculous. They sound okay until you realize that teachers are also parents, and so things that are inappropriate in their role as a teacher may be appropriate in their role as a parent. A teacher shouldn't use personal e-mail or social media to do their job (i.e. communicate with their current students.) At the same time, it is completely appropriate to use personal e-mail or personal social media to communicate with their child or their child's friends.

    This is the same as it being generally inappropriate to, as a teacher, invite students to your house, but it is perfectly appropriate to, as a parent, invite your child's friends to your house on behalf of your child.

    The school district can tell the difference for real-world events, but has the common fallacy of "if it happens on the internet, it must be a dramatically greater risk for evil."

  67. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

    I hate to break it to you, but that mentality is not evolutionary successful. Humans have evolved to become the dominant organism on this planet. Our ability to balance personal and social needs is what has gotten us here. And because there will always be people who take more than they give, at least some of that social obligation will have to be forced on people through contracts and laws. Making people behave responsibility if they have been trusted with important duties—such as education—is one of the most important demands people should place on their governments and on each other.

    So, sure: if you don't want people to interfere with your life, simply stay far, far away from theirs. This solution works equally well for societal and interpersonal dilemmas. It's not all bad; maybe you'll come back later with something more to contribute.

    That's not to say laws and policies don't overdo things, but this is not exactly an example of that; it's one of the most basic and important duties of a society to control its governments' representatives. Perhaps this principle doesn't manifest perfectly in the literal text of this policy, but it could've been a lot worse, and now that the regulation is on the books it can be debated and revised to make it a better tool. Save your ire for the really stupid things, like surveillance and oil wars. This is essentially an anti-corruption law, scaled down. Its purpose is to keep some of the most powerful people in our society from affecting some of the most vulnerable. It's exactly the kind of policy that should be applied to politicians to prevent them from interacting with lobbyists.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  68. Re:What about parents of students who are teachers by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 1

    this isn't the military. the abuse potential for conflicts of interest is negligible in the teacher/student relationship compared to the military, or business. in the military and business worlds, the relationship is boss/flunky. teacher/student relationships are more like mentor/apprentice (or should be), and so friendship bonds are actually desirable -- not neutral or detrimental. if we were using cooperative education vs competitive, we wouldn't even be talking about this. sexual relationships between students are already banned, so this anti-friendship law is just a bit too much law of moses. that right there should be everyone's first clue that the purpose of this law has little to do with its name, like most laws. laws more often do the opposite of what they were voted in to do.

    --
    insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT