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Ultra-Orthodox Jews Rally For a More Kosher Internet
Hugh Pickens writes "Michael Grynbaum writes that 40,000 ultra-Orthodox Jewish men filed through the gates of Citi Field to discuss the dangers of the Internet. For the attendees, many of whom said they came at the instructions of their rabbis, it was a chance to hear about a moral topic considered gravely important in the Hasidic community: the potential problems that can stem from access to pornography and other explicit content on the uncensored, often incendiary Web. Schlomo Cohen, 24, said he came to Citi Field because the rally was a good way to remind his community to keep temptation at bay. 'Desires are out there,' said Cohen. 'We have to learn how to control ourselves.' The rally was sponsored by a rabbinical group, Ichud Hakehillos Letohar Hamachane, that is linked to a software company that sells Internet filtering software to Orthodox Jews. Those in attendance were handed fliers that advertised services like a 'kosher GPS App' for iPhone and Android phones, which helps users locate synagogues and kosher restaurants. 'No one here is a Luddite who denies the manifold benefits that technology has brought to mankind as a whole,' says Eytan Kobre, spokesman for the event. 'But at a certain point, a mature, thinking individual stops and says, "I've got to make a cost-benefit analysis [of] what ways it is enriching my life, [and] in what ways it is undermining it."'"
I've been on the internet since the early 90's and I don't ever recall even once being forced to go to a porn site (though I have been tricked into watching Rick Astley a couple of times). Unless you get some kind of phishing virus, no one is going to *force* anything on you. And if you're so weak that you can't control yourself, you may want to avoid the internet altogether. Anyway, if you really want the porn, I'm pretty sure you'll just find a way to bypass the filtering software this guy is hawking. If all that's standing between you being devout and becoming a porn-crazed sinner is some software, maybe it's time for you to reevaluate your faith.
Just keep in mind that the second you start talking about fucking with MY internet or MY ability to access porn (or anything else), then we're going to have a problem. And that goes whether it's a bible you're thumping, or a Koran, or the Talmud, etc. It's not our job to protect you from yourself, Sparky.
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
It lets people find out things like this
'Desires are out there,' said Cohen. 'We have to learn how to control ourselves.'
Exactly. Just learn to control yourselves and stay away from porn sites. Treat them like you do pork. Or guys porking girls. Whatever, there's pork there.
Shlomo Cohen, 24, of Toronto, said he used the Internet for shopping, business and staying in touch with friends -- “Everyone needs e-mail,” he said.
You might say it's a powerful tool that isn't inherently good or evil, it can just magnify the abilities and desires of the user?
...
Basically: "New technology befuddles and stymies religious folks who wonder why their deity(s) of choice didn't write out rules for said technologies X millennia ago (at least for deities that are said to be omniscient)."
As a former Catholic, I'm sort of glad that "thou shalt not play Diablo III for 12 hours on Sunday while occasionally watching free pornography" is no longer applied to me. Hard to shake the guilt that I'm enjoying so much while others deliberately stunt themselves though
My work here is dung.
'Desires are out there,' said Cohen. 'We have to learn how to control ourselves.'
Why worry about internet pr0n when facebook, tv, shopping, and fattening foods are the exact same class of problem and more severe? Uncontrollable desires wasting lives, etc? I would have to look at a heck of a lot of pr0n to make up for watching TV for hours when I was a kid.
It seems to be a poorly prioritized concern. Once everyone is off FB, throws out their TV, skinny from a paleo/low carb diet, zeroed credit card and loan balances then it might be time to fret that someone out there might be having a good time and they've gotta stop it somehow.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
These guys should prove they think of the children by sponsoring the OpenDNS project or something similar. Then their members could set up their PCs to have restricted access to the stuf they find likely to offend without having to go through all the porn in the world befor emaking a decision.
If you are saying that you need filtering or censoring software, then you are saying you can't trust yourself to follow your beliefs. If you really do believe in what you are being taught, then it should be incredibly simple for you to avoid tempting content on the internet. "We have to control ourselves" one guy says. If you need these programs, then you obviously aren't controlling yourself. Your religious beliefs are your responsibility. If you can't handle it or control yourself, then maybe you need to look at why you can't.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
New technology and innovation always presents a threat for major religions because intellectual freedom obtained outside of their control has always represented a threat.
I say that as a practicing Jew and completely understanding the hypocrisy of the statement. I've always had time reconciling the two sides of my mind when it comes to this.
"It's not stealing if you don't get caught!"
Just keep in mind that the second you start talking about fucking with MY internet
Jews do not generally go around telling non-Jews what to do with their personal lives. If you take a look at the Talmud, there are sections that deal with how Jews should live when they are surrounded by non-Jews; the Talmud was written at a time when non-Jews were pagans whose rituals would be disgusting by modern standards, but the Talmud only commands Jews to stay away from pagan temples and to be careful about letting pagans become to "familiar" with a Jew's animals, and some regulations about wines and eating utensils that might be used by pagans. Note that the Talmud does not command Jews to stop pagans from practicing their religions or to judge them for their rituals. As long as you are not bringing your laptop full of pornography into an ultra-orthodox community, they really do not care what you are doing or what sort of information is on your computer network.
Palm trees and 8
It isn't just porn. The charedi(ultra-orthodox) are having serious troubles with people leaving the fold due to simply learning about things on the internet, like evolution and the age of the Earth. Many of them don't become outright atheists or agnostics but instead transition to being some form of Modern Orthodox, or Yeshivish. But for most of the ultra-Orthodox population that's about as close to as bad as completely abandoning the religion. In some respects it is worse, because when they stay some form of Orthodox, it is a lot harder to get friends and families to shun a person who leaves, which means the person now becomes an influx of new ideas into the community. It also doesn't help the charedim, that there are organizations like Footsteps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footsteps_(organization) specifically geared to getting people to leave the fold.
Incidentally, it seems that people commenting on this article are slightly confused about terminology. Chassidic or hassidic is not a synonym for ultra-orthodox. The Chassidim are a specific movement founded around 1800 that have specific belief sets and communal organizations where each sect centers around a Rabbinic dynastic that leads that sect. Chassidim are essentially a subset of ultra-orthodox. The more general term for ultra-orthodox as whole is "charedi" (or in the plural "charedim"), although in some contexts that term is used to mean ultra-orthodox who aren't chassidic.
Silence and self-rule: Brooklyn's Orthodox child abuse cover-up
This happens to most -- if not all -- closed off religious communities. When people are above the law, and they fear no prosecution because their followers will protect them even when they are caught red handed, they will abuse their positions of authority and victimize the weak. It's human nature.
That's why the civilized world aims to use third parties to administer the law equally, regardless of who the perpetrator is. It's an idea hated by religious people, because it often exposes their leaders as the flawed and sometimes evil human beings that they are. Once reality becomes your enemy, you're doomed to a life of obedience to the power structure that lets you live in a fantasy world, which can lead perfectly normal people to protect monsters. In their minds it's not possible for their rabbi or pastor or priest to be evil, because acceptance of that fact is too damaging to their worldview.
Yup, the ultra-orthodox really hate the Internet:
http://www.chabad.org/
This conference is about deciding what sort of rules should be applied to the Internet within the ultra-orthodox community, not banning the Internet all together. As for the issue of child molestation, yes, it is a problem within the community; and guess what? There are Jews standing outside of the conference protesting its purpose and demanding that the issue of child molestation be addressed first. So much for hating the Internet.
You know what the worst thing you can do is? Point fingers at the ultra-orthodox and scream about child molestation, since that is exactly what they are afraid of happening if people speak about it outside of their community -- you are basically validating what they are saying to themselves when they keep it a secret. How about we take the rational approach and just bring child molesters to court, where they can be tried and sentenced like anyone else, without shouting about how they are Jewish?
Palm trees and 8
"Orthodox Jews don't rape nine-year olds" - just read this article to see how wrong you are:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/29/brooklyn-orthodox-jews-child-abuse-cover-up-feature/
I'm not Jewish, but the author having been a conservative rabbi tells me they're probably fairly accurate portrayals. Take Asher Lev, for the religion to cause such strife and try to snuff out a young man's natural talent, you have to wonder if the religion is a net benefit to society. I know the story is fiction, but it is supposedly set within a realistic portrayal of a Hasidic community. On the other hand, you probably have this conflict within the conservative branch of any religion. This brings me to the quesiton, is religion in general a net benefit?
But I figure in the end, at least they're not bombing anybody. They're welcome to do what they want in their communities as long as they're not violating anybody's civil rights or demanding we change to accommodate their beliefs. Same for conservative Muslims here.
the only logically and morally defensible position on rights and freedoms is that of the individual
when people act as a group with a command and control structure and talk about rights and freedoms, the subject ceases to be valid because the command and control structure of organized religion, in the process of imposing edicts on its members, is breaking the rights and freedoms of the individual
you can only talk about rights and freedoms of the individual. "religious freedom" in this context is an oxymoron because "religious freedom" is really just about imposing on the rights of freedoms of individuals born into a religion and unable to choose for themselves
you have to talk about rights and freedoms from the point of view of the individual. all other perspectives are not logically coherent point of views to take and therefore are false and immoral
society is only able to maintain true freedom when organized religion ceases to think it has the right to impose its will on others. as long as it does, it is an enemy of rights and freedoms. you should be able to worship your god as you choose, convert to any religion you want, as an individual. the organized religion has no right to dictate your choices, as an individual. or it is a force of authoritarianism and oppression
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Don't look at the shit which offends you. If necessary don't use the internet at all. I myself manage to go my entire time on the internet without viewing stuff which does not interest me by the simple expedient of not searching for it. If by chance I find myself at looking at something does not interest me, I browse somewhere else which does.
I think we are safe from Muslim terrorists for a while at least. 40,000 Jews in one place and not even a bomb threat?
I have to wonder what we would be saying if it was 40,000 Muslims meeting there for the same topic? Flip through the variations of religions and apply that mental exercise of "what if?" Rastafarians make for an amusing mental image, as do several others. When I ponder which group would be the scariest in regards to tampering with our Internet freedoms, it boils down to Muslims and "Fundy Christians" with the later winning by a nose.
Religious perspectives of the Internet, they all vary, but frankly I like to remain suspicious of all of them. People inherently seem to get big wild ideas about the Internet, politicians and religious people especially and these groups tend to intermingle at a disgusting rate.
Take the Red Pill.
I've been on the internet since the early 90's and I don't ever recall even once being forced to go to a porn site (though I have been tricked into watching Rick Astley a couple of times).
If a Rickroll is the worst you've seen, consider yourself very lucky not to have been tricked into seeing Goatse or Tubgirl (both NSFW).
Sometimes the whole "Kosher" process kinda irks me in the sense that many of the most commonly consumed foods have been "made Kosher" with special branding and tiny little symbols on the labels which seem innocent and harmless enough, but those markings COST MONEY. The cost, of course, results in higher prices for things which do not affect the majority of people.
So let's take a page from the "Halal" playbook and let them buy their stuff from Kosher stores instead of effectively taxing everything we eat. Seems reasonable -- you need something different, go ahead... get your something different, but don't make the rest of us pay for it.
That said, what does it have to do with the original topic?
PLENTY!
I don't want some minority interest stepping in with things that will ultimately change and harm the internet. If they want something "sanitized" great! There's an app for that! It's called a VPN. You just connect to a regular public internet connection and then from there, log into a VPN which routes all traffic through a "Kosher-net." Now you're cleansed without affecting the rest of the planet.
When small groups force their changes on the world, it invariably harms the world in some way.
Don't let your 9 year old girl stray too close to the border fence or the guards will shoot at her for target practice. Don't protest the knocking down of homes because they'll run you over with a bulldozer. Don't try to bring aid to Gaza because they'll send troops into international waters and kill 8. Don't send UN monitors to a border that they're invading because they'll bomb it killing everyone inside the monitoring post. Don't even get me started on the UN School bombing where they killed all those civilians.
You may be blind to what Israel is up to, but the rest of the world isn't.
And anyone who supports that country is as bad as they are.
The rally was sponsored by a rabbinical group, Ichud Hakehillos Letohar Hamachane, that is linked to a software company that sells Internet filtering software to Orthodox Jews.
So this is like one of those AV popups: "Your computer may be infected. Click here to download our software."
Have gnu, will travel.
It's pretty bloody refreshing that you have a group that has a set of social values, that are getting together to logically discuss a way that they and their families can access the useful but wild'n'wooly Internet in a way that fits with their precepts, doctrines, and social values.... ...and doesn't make even a whisper about controlling OTHER PEOPLES' access.
That's absolutely wonderful.
I sincerely wish more people in this country would follow their lead and build their lives comfortably along their own beliefs but leave the REST of us ALONE.
You don't want porn? Fine. Don't watch porn. Build your ironclad access controls high and mighty to keep that out - just don't step up and say that the REST OF US can't watch porn either. Then you've crossed a line.
Really, this holds true outside of religious issues too. Want to help the homeless? Fine, pay more taxes, volunteer your time, whatever - just quit insisting on taking more of my paycheck to pay for your moral compunction.
-Styopa
Where's anti-semitism, borderline or otherwise?! It's just not there! Dude - you're not doing anyone any favours jumping up and down with the anti-semitism bullshit - save it for an occasion when it's actually true because if you don't, all you do is devalue the term and that's probably not a good idea. And really - the NYT is *vaguely* middle left, hardly the extreme left you imply. By international standards it's still pretty right-wing. And they're really not in the business of "smearing" the Jewish community - that's just conspiracy theory nuts.
Your claim that these practices are universal to Islam is pure bullshit.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Not true. Different Islamic groups follow different sets of Hadith, and don't attribute the same importance to all of them either. There's no agreement on which ones should be followed, or even trusted at all, much less how they should be interpreted. In Christian terms, they're Deuterocanonical or Apocrypha.
Add to that there's the whole school of Quranism, which completely rejects all Hadith and holds the Quran as the only canonical text.
"If there are things like an officially safe AdBlock/filter that accords to strict Jewish definitions of porn ..."
I guess girls with pigtails are out then?
They should be focused on their bronze age science fiction book instead like all good religious idiots.