Slashdot Mirror
Hungarian Sequencing Company Vets DNA For 'Gypsy Or Jew' Genes
ananyo writes "Hungary's Medical Research Council (ETT), which advises the government on health policy, has asked public prosecutors to investigate a genetic-diagnostic company that certified that a member of parliament did not have Roma or Jewish heritage. The MP in question is a member of the far-right Jobbik party, which won 17% of the votes in the general election of April 2010. He apparently requested the certificate from the firm Nagy Gén Diagnostic and Research. The company produced the document in September 2010, a few weeks before local elections. Nagy Gén scanned 18 positions in the MP's genome for variants that it says are characteristic of Roma and Jewish ethnic groups; its report concludes that Roma and Jewish ancestry can be ruled out." Adds ananyo: "The test is of-course nonsense, and notions of 'racial purity' have long been discredited." Just when you think the world is too modern for such things, modernity gets hijacked by flim-flam.
But did they scan him for the vampire gene?
I feel like throwing in the towel and getting the hell out of this country.
Tell that to Bela Lugosi
Why would it even matter? Unless you're some kind of right wing, neo nazi freak - oh, wait... never mind.
This signature intentionally left blank.
>>Adds anonyo: "The test is of-course nonsense, and notions of 'racial purity' have long been discredited."
These are two different claims. One is that the test is nonsense, the other is that racial purity has long been discredited.
It's quite possible for both the genetic test to be valid, and to not *care* about racial purity.
While notions of race are tied up in all sorts of political correct nonsense and/or racist stereotyping, the simple fact of the matter is that there is a certain nexus of genes that are associated with what we commonly call race, and no amount of politically correct handwaving will make the science go away. Things like sickle cell anemia are associated with people of African descent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease#Genetics), as is Tay-Sachs in Ashkenazi Jews (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jewish_people), high rates of adult lactase enzymes in people of Northern European descent, low rates of alcohol dehydrogenase in several Asian groups, and so forth.
Long story short, while the concept of race is socially constructed (what is considered "white" has changed significantly over the last 100 years), the labels that we do use for race can be backed up by genetic testing (by looking for clusters of genes associated with a race), and so tests like this *are* scientifically valid, even though ethically suspicious.
1. How accurate are these tests?
and 2. How ethical is doing something like that?
I think the answer on #1 is actually more complex than this summary makes it sound. The notion of pure ethnic groups is a fiction, but you can trace some kinds of population lineages using genetic markers. That's in fact some of how we've recreated early human population movements; by estimating when in time certain markers diverged between Asian and European populations, for example, we can estimate when those populations migrated out of the Middle East / Africa area where their ancestors likely originated. The HapMap project maps some more recent geographical correlations.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Considering the rather complex history of invasions and migrations through Hungary, I can't even imagine what one would qualify as a pure Hungarian. We're not talking about largely homogeneous populations like Iceland or Norway, we're talking about a country that has been the stomping ground from everyone from Central Asians to Germans to Mediterranean types. Read a history of that region. The idea that there is any kind of true full blooded "Hungarian" is daft.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
And vomiting generalized insults over a whole continent puts you on the moral high ground compared to your average neonazi idiot how, exactly?
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
There are still Nazi pigs in Europe
FTFY. This is just proof that idiocy knows no national boundaries - there's racist fucks in Europe, Asia, the Americas, Africa, Australia, Oceania and probably even Antarctica.
Unless you can definitively demonstrate that your country has never, in all its history, engaged in any sort of ethnic discrimination (or been the victim of it)...
Not really. It's been a while since then, and the interbreeding with Neanderthals that happened only to the future caucasoids and mongoloids. In particular, light-colored hair developed twice, among caucasoids and a certain tribe of pacific islanders.
I got an impression that Slashdot is pushing a certain point of view here. What's that about "nonsense" of racial purity? Are you denying that Jews and Gypsies exist? There must genetic markers defining any racial group that physically differs. It is certainly possible to determine the likelihood of person having certain ancestry based on genetic typing.
The test is of-course nonsense, and notions of 'racial purity' have long been discredited." Just when you think the world is too modern for such things, modernity gets hijacked by flim-flam.
Sorry, but you either descended from Jacob (insert the comparabl\, or you did not. We currently have the technology to measure that with a high degree of confidence.
Now, if you want to talk about whether or not an adopted Jew, or a convert, count as "really" Jewish, that gets into matters of dogma, not genetics - And don't think this extends only to the "racists" - Just as some groups would hold such ancestry against someone, orthodox Judaism considers it (specifically, matrilineal descent) a requirement.
And for the record, I consider both stances equally stupid.
I think the larger question would be, why in the world would there be a law in finding out anything you want pertaining to your own genes??? They ARE your genes aren't they?
I suppose this guy could claim he was trying to screen himself for something like Tay-Sachs disease or something else genetically related to being Jewish...
But still....kinda hard to see a law like this in existance...shouldn't you be able to test yourself for whatever reason you wish?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I can't speak for the Roma, but on behalf of the Jewish people, I accept the results of this test. This idiot has nothing to do with us genetically. Cue other ethnic groups demanding he test himself so they can wash their hands of him as well. (Sadly, people like this take: "Nobody wants me" to be a compliment rather than an insult.)
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
I think the larger question would be, why in the world would there be a law in finding out anything you want pertaining to your own genes??? They ARE your genes aren't they?
A few months ago I was listing to NPR, and they were having this exact debate. There was a representative from the AMA arguing that ordinary people were too stupid to interpret DNA tests, and therefore they should be illegal unless a doctor requests them. So this is not just a Hungarian thing, there are plenty of Americans who also think the world is "too modern" for you to be allowed to have knowledge about your own body.
Transylvania is only a part of Romania (not "Rumania") after World War I. It was a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire before. And Hungarian is still the second language there. Nothing is simple in the Balkans :-)
In talks with Hungarian friends, some of which still live there, they seem keenly aware of the poor image their country has in the eyes of the rest of the world. It's a country best known for giving the origins to history's most prolific serial killer, Elizabeth Bathory (killed ~600 young girls with torture methods that make the Spanish Inquisition look like amateur hour), and for being the de facto porn capital of Europe. Worse, the attempts of Hungarians to whitewash haven't made things much better, yet they persist. For example, last year there was quite a bit of drama on the Wikipedia page for the countess, with Hungarians trying to sanitize the Bathory article of some of the more gruesome details and putting in claims that the evidence against her was hear-say and/or politically motivated (veritably and verifiably false, as there were plenty of well-documented witnesses). When this didn't work out and much of the dishonest editing was undone (though I've still been unable to fully restore the article), they tried to shift the blame for the edit attempts on feminists. Which might have been convincing, had I not hang around Hungarian IRC channels in one of which the whole whitewash campaign was discussed.
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
It’s reassuring to know that the United States of America doesn’t have a monopoly on nut cases.
HRH The Duke of Windsor
An X-Linked Haplotype of Neandertal Origin Is Present Among All Non-African Populations
Stop generalizing!
Americans are so stupid...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And as OP shows, they were right. Uneducated people cannot interpret them correctly, so instead they work their imagination, and use the tests for racial profiling and discrimination nazi-style (notably this is the CORRECT usage of nazism, as that is exactly what nazi idea was - that humans have racial elements that make them less worthy that are genetic based on race, rather then largely independent of race, such as stupidity).
Here you see the danger of ignorance at work, yet again. Saddest part is, we already have done this particular dance in the past, several times. And it never ended well. And as sad as it is, the argument that "people need to be protected from their own ignorance" appears to have merit. Though personally, I would prefer education as a solution rather then enforcing ban on exploiting ignorance.
I don't think the interbreeding did anything to propogate the genes. Where's the neandrathal DNA in modern humans?
Congress?
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
It's part of us. I would be interested to know if white people's blond hair, blue eyes, and large noses have Neanderthal origins. After all, they lived in cold climates far longer than modern humans.
The issues from TFA shed light on a the ethical complexity of genetics. Personally, I want a copy of my genome. I have some specific health related reasons I want it, but it would be cool to do things with it, like find out roughly what percentage Native American I am (I'm at least 1/32nd Cherokee), if that's even possible. Where have my mitochondria evolved most recently? Do I have the cheating gene?
Hungary has it wrong on two counts. First, they outlawed extracting genetic information except for health reasons. That's got to put a real damper on genetic research, and the Libertarian in me is crying foul. It's my genes, and I should be free to do what I want with them. Second, they're going after the genetics lab over this dumb law, rather than going after the MP for racist behavior. Let's hope we have more success in the US in drafting legislation to protect peoples right to genetic privacy, while giving people full access to data about themselves, and promoting genetic research.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
DNA USA is a readable journey through various DNA techniques and ancestry studies by the British geneticist Bryan Sykes. It covers many of the arguments discussed in this thread. Sykes has written several other books like this, which update the state of the art about every three years or so.
An interesting argument from Sykes is that after 400 years, some ancestors are edited out of your heritage. You can only have 50K contributors to the 25K pairs of genes you carry. And after 16 generators, some the ancestors no longer give you any genes. 400 years is 16 generations. To worry about a billion ancestors back 30 generations is not that important.
If good gives up, evil prevails.
" I didn't see where this individual had used his own genetic results for any type of discrimination"
Perhaps you missed the part where he made it his campaign platform.
"the USE of the tests for himself, didn't seem to do any harm to anyone else."
The use of the tests was to pander to racists. Fanning the fire of racism does harm, in this case to jews and roma.
"Is finding your genetic racial disposition something that in of itself is inherently wrong?"
Probably not, but logical fallacies are:
1) Z = X + Y (learning genealogy + campaigning on genealogy)
2) X is non-negative (nothing wrong with genealogy)
Therefore Z is non-negative
You claimed that Jews are indistinguishable from any other group, but that's in fact wrong
Prove it. How will you distinguish Jews from non-Jews, other than by religion and culture?
How about if we simply use the genetic test described in the article?
As you noted there are a bunch of subgroups of Jewish people who have ancestral ties. As a result even if only due to their proximity and history there will be genetic ties as well.
Except that the Ethiopian Jews' genetics were closer to the general population Ethiopia than to any other Jewish population. So much for using genetics to test whether or not someone is Jewish.
By the way, your story of your great grandfather and your father only illustrates how races can change over time.
No, it illustrates that there is nothing genetic about being Jewish. People have converted to Judaism throughout the history of Judaism; it is absurd to think that there is some Jewish forefather or that all Jews share some common lineage.
Yes I could declare that I am a Jew, but I would still be cognizant that I am Jewish in religion only, I did not suddenly change my ancestry.
So what? Do you really think that having Jewish ancestors has some special significance? I would guess that almost everyone living in Europe and the Mediterranean region has at least one Jewish ancestor. Does that really make a difference to you? Do you really care that much about who your ancestors were going back hundreds or even thousands of years?
Judaism is a religion and a culture. There is no Jewish gene; there are some genes that are common to certain Jewish communities, which has to do with a cultural demand to marry within the community, but those genes have absolutely nothing to do with being Jewish.
Palm trees and 8
There was a controversial 2005 paper that did suggest Ashkenazi Jews may have above average math and verbal intelligence, and inferior spatial intelligence
Some 40% of Ashkenazi Jews have mitochondrial DNA descended from just four women. If those four women had DNA that encouraged above average intelligence it would be quite plausible for the same tendency to extend to a large percentage of Ashkenazi Jews.
Physical characteristics of our brains are determined to a significant extent by our genes, along with nutrition and other factors, but it is entirely plausabile that there are genetic factors that would result in above average intelligence, just like there are genetic factors that result in above average strength, stamina or speed.
Its just a matter of time before someone is going to try to genetically engineer superintelligent humans.
P.S.
Last laugh at all the people, especially interkin3tic, who fileted me on the slashdot thread a few weeks about $1000 DNA sequencing when I pointed out how neo nazi's would immediately latch on to it as a way to determine racial purity. Assorted liberals asserted that we had moved beyond Nazi's, eugenics and race and it would never happen again. I pointed out then Hungary already had a neo Nazi government going down this path again, and today here you are.
@de_machina
Mitochondrial DNA (mDNA) is only passed down from the mother, meaning it's not sexually mixed. This DNA is also ONLY used in the mitochondria, the DNA doesn't affect a damn thing in your body outside the Mitochondria. So even if there are 4 women who originate an entire ethnic groups Mitochondria it says NOTHING about the sexual mixing of regular DNA that has occurred over those generations. So not only can you say nothing about intelligence based on mDNA but mDNA is worthless for anything other than paternity and descendence studies.
I won't even get into genetics versus environment and the studies that have shown intelligence, ambition and knowledge are as dependent on environment (upbringing) as they are on natural advantages.
So you have definitively established that the mitochondria has no role in the function of the brain even though neurons have hundreds of mitochondria and they are essential to meeting the energy needs of neurons.
Please do share with us your innovative research.
@de_machina
Bela Lugosi's Dead
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Here is one of many papers, "Neuronal degeneration and mitochondrial dysfunction", where mitochondrial DNA does seem to "affect a damn thing in your body outside the Mitochondria".
Would you like to retract your kneejerk claim now or later?
@de_machina
Anti-Roma racism in Europe (esp. Eastern Europe) has purely pragmatic roots. Denounce it as non politically correct all you want, but there's a strong correlation between Roma and petty criminals - especially those Roma who are identifiably Roma (i.e. wear the appropriate clothing, speak the language etc). Of course, this isn't because there is some kind of "Roma DNA" that includes some "thief gene" in it. It's because European Roma culture historically was, and to a large extent remains, conductive of petty crime. Today, this is primarily a self-perpetuating problem, much like disproportionally high numbers of criminals among African Americans in the USA - association of the whole group with crime leads to discrimination of it uniformly regardless of how individual members conduct themselves, which in turn means that their individual opportunity to achieve a higher status in life is that much less, which means that many are turned towards crime again as the most rewarding way of living that is left available to them. But, from the perspective of your average Eastern European citizen, who knows that out of ten thieves he saw in his life, eight were Roma, it doesn't matter - "fool me once" and all that.
Anti-Jewish racism, on the other hand, is mostly political - Nazi heritage and all that.