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Hungarian Sequencing Company Vets DNA For 'Gypsy Or Jew' Genes
ananyo writes "Hungary's Medical Research Council (ETT), which advises the government on health policy, has asked public prosecutors to investigate a genetic-diagnostic company that certified that a member of parliament did not have Roma or Jewish heritage. The MP in question is a member of the far-right Jobbik party, which won 17% of the votes in the general election of April 2010. He apparently requested the certificate from the firm Nagy Gén Diagnostic and Research. The company produced the document in September 2010, a few weeks before local elections. Nagy Gén scanned 18 positions in the MP's genome for variants that it says are characteristic of Roma and Jewish ethnic groups; its report concludes that Roma and Jewish ancestry can be ruled out." Adds ananyo: "The test is of-course nonsense, and notions of 'racial purity' have long been discredited." Just when you think the world is too modern for such things, modernity gets hijacked by flim-flam.
But did they scan him for the vampire gene?
Why would the ETT want to start a prosecution? Oh yeah, didn't RTFA
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Thats Rumania, not Hungary
I feel like throwing in the towel and getting the hell out of this country.
Why would it even matter? Unless you're some kind of right wing, neo nazi freak - oh, wait... never mind.
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>>Adds anonyo: "The test is of-course nonsense, and notions of 'racial purity' have long been discredited."
These are two different claims. One is that the test is nonsense, the other is that racial purity has long been discredited.
It's quite possible for both the genetic test to be valid, and to not *care* about racial purity.
While notions of race are tied up in all sorts of political correct nonsense and/or racist stereotyping, the simple fact of the matter is that there is a certain nexus of genes that are associated with what we commonly call race, and no amount of politically correct handwaving will make the science go away. Things like sickle cell anemia are associated with people of African descent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease#Genetics), as is Tay-Sachs in Ashkenazi Jews (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jewish_people), high rates of adult lactase enzymes in people of Northern European descent, low rates of alcohol dehydrogenase in several Asian groups, and so forth.
Long story short, while the concept of race is socially constructed (what is considered "white" has changed significantly over the last 100 years), the labels that we do use for race can be backed up by genetic testing (by looking for clusters of genes associated with a race), and so tests like this *are* scientifically valid, even though ethically suspicious.
1. How accurate are these tests?
and 2. How ethical is doing something like that?
I think the answer on #1 is actually more complex than this summary makes it sound. The notion of pure ethnic groups is a fiction, but you can trace some kinds of population lineages using genetic markers. That's in fact some of how we've recreated early human population movements; by estimating when in time certain markers diverged between Asian and European populations, for example, we can estimate when those populations migrated out of the Middle East / Africa area where their ancestors likely originated. The HapMap project maps some more recent geographical correlations.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Considering the rather complex history of invasions and migrations through Hungary, I can't even imagine what one would qualify as a pure Hungarian. We're not talking about largely homogeneous populations like Iceland or Norway, we're talking about a country that has been the stomping ground from everyone from Central Asians to Germans to Mediterranean types. Read a history of that region. The idea that there is any kind of true full blooded "Hungarian" is daft.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Since we realized we all came out of Africa, the rift valley to be more specific.
And vomiting generalized insults over a whole continent puts you on the moral high ground compared to your average neonazi idiot how, exactly?
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
There are still Nazi pigs in Europe
FTFY. This is just proof that idiocy knows no national boundaries - there's racist fucks in Europe, Asia, the Americas, Africa, Australia, Oceania and probably even Antarctica.
Unless you can definitively demonstrate that your country has never, in all its history, engaged in any sort of ethnic discrimination (or been the victim of it)...
Not really. It's been a while since then, and the interbreeding with Neanderthals that happened only to the future caucasoids and mongoloids. In particular, light-colored hair developed twice, among caucasoids and a certain tribe of pacific islanders.
I got an impression that Slashdot is pushing a certain point of view here. What's that about "nonsense" of racial purity? Are you denying that Jews and Gypsies exist? There must genetic markers defining any racial group that physically differs. It is certainly possible to determine the likelihood of person having certain ancestry based on genetic typing.
The test is of-course nonsense, and notions of 'racial purity' have long been discredited." Just when you think the world is too modern for such things, modernity gets hijacked by flim-flam.
Sorry, but you either descended from Jacob (insert the comparabl\, or you did not. We currently have the technology to measure that with a high degree of confidence.
Now, if you want to talk about whether or not an adopted Jew, or a convert, count as "really" Jewish, that gets into matters of dogma, not genetics - And don't think this extends only to the "racists" - Just as some groups would hold such ancestry against someone, orthodox Judaism considers it (specifically, matrilineal descent) a requirement.
And for the record, I consider both stances equally stupid.
Just what makes you all so sure these guys *haven't* figured out a way to screen for racial impurities?
The well-known patterns of intermarriage between Jews and the surrounding cultures, that's what. Jews do not generally like to admit it, but intermarriage has been happening between Jewish men and non-Jewish women for thousands of years (it is actually less common for Jewish women to marry non-Jewish men). This should not be terribly surprising, since Jews rarely lived in such isolation that they had no contact with other cultures, and one of the things that commonly happens when two cultures meet up is for people to intermarry.
It is also worth pointing out that there is no single Jewish ethnic group. There are Ashkenazic Jews, Sephardic Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ethiopian Jews, and less known populations of Jews in central Asia and Africa. These groups have distinct genetic patterns, with the exception of a common Y chromosome gene that indicates descent from the ancient priestly line (this is an uncommon gene among Jews, and has little use in ruling out that a person is the descendant of Jews; this gene is not present in Ethiopian Jews, for example).
All that being said, I take issue with the term "racial impurities." What does that even mean? If I lined up a bunch of white men, would you know which ones were Jews (hint: not at all)? If a Jewish baby and a non-Jewish baby are switched at birth, how would anyone know? Judaism has more to do with culture and religion than genetics; there is no gene that makes someone Jewish, Jewish people are not born keeping kosher or covering their heads. You can make a similar statement about Gypsies; Roma is a culture, not something that is encoded in someone's genes.
Palm trees and 8
I don't think the interbreeding did anything to propogate the genes. Where's the neandrathal DNA in modern humans?
I can't speak for the Roma, but on behalf of the Jewish people, I accept the results of this test. This idiot has nothing to do with us genetically. Cue other ethnic groups demanding he test himself so they can wash their hands of him as well. (Sadly, people like this take: "Nobody wants me" to be a compliment rather than an insult.)
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Reading this kind of news is pretty shocking IMHO. First we have anti-ROMA racism in France, then anti-ROMA and antisemitic racism in Hungary. I really hope history doesn't repeat itself, though I'm not overly optimistic.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
In talks with Hungarian friends, some of which still live there, they seem keenly aware of the poor image their country has in the eyes of the rest of the world. It's a country best known for giving the origins to history's most prolific serial killer, Elizabeth Bathory (killed ~600 young girls with torture methods that make the Spanish Inquisition look like amateur hour), and for being the de facto porn capital of Europe. Worse, the attempts of Hungarians to whitewash haven't made things much better, yet they persist. For example, last year there was quite a bit of drama on the Wikipedia page for the countess, with Hungarians trying to sanitize the Bathory article of some of the more gruesome details and putting in claims that the evidence against her was hear-say and/or politically motivated (veritably and verifiably false, as there were plenty of well-documented witnesses). When this didn't work out and much of the dishonest editing was undone (though I've still been unable to fully restore the article), they tried to shift the blame for the edit attempts on feminists. Which might have been convincing, had I not hang around Hungarian IRC channels in one of which the whole whitewash campaign was discussed.
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
It’s reassuring to know that the United States of America doesn’t have a monopoly on nut cases.
HRH The Duke of Windsor
Oh, it did. See for example here.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
An X-Linked Haplotype of Neandertal Origin Is Present Among All Non-African Populations
She doesn't sequence druish.
Let's face it, most of us are scoffers. But moments before zero hour, it does not pay to take chances.
Stop generalizing!
Americans are so stupid...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
So why are these Hungarians trying to solve a Kazakh problem?
You can't handle the truth.
I believe this was just tested. But if you can handwave the results away with politically correct platitudes
I guess you have no concept of people converting to Judaism, do you? Or are you one of those people who things that converts are not really Jews?
Palm trees and 8
Do they really celebrate Running of the Jew in Antarctica?
[Sorry, someone had to slip a Borat joke]
Saved my grandfather's life. By extension enabled my own to exist. Anecdotal evidence.
I don't think the interbreeding did anything to propogate the genes. Where's the neandrathal DNA in modern humans?
Congress?
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Just to clarify, the switch wasn't intentional. There was enough chaos to go around at the time.
As a Finn, I'd like to note that it's well-established that we are very inbred. There is a wide array of genetic diseases (and a few positive mutations) that can be found essentially nowhere else in the world.
The nice thing about malevolent bigoted fools who need to experience a noose is that they are eager to self-identify. Saves the rest of us a lot of trouble.
Everybody gets what the majority deserves.
If I lined up a bunch of white men, would you know which ones were Jews (hint: not at all)?
Just taking some simple observations would give you an average success rate greater than random selection so your "not at all" is wrong. For instance, pick only those with dark hair. (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7061-hair#anchor7)
It is also worth pointing out that there is no single Jewish ethnic group. There are Ashkenazic Jews, Sephardic Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ethiopian Jews, and less known populations of Jews in central Asia and Africa. These groups have distinct genetic patterns
The fact that race may be more complicated than the common usage does not invalidate the common usage. It doesn't stop us from talking about other poorly defined groups, like "blondes" or "children" or "smart people" or pretty much anything.
Why do people insist on having an airtight, scientifically sound, completely precise definition for race?
there is no gene that makes someone Jewish, Jewish people are not born keeping kosher or covering their heads
You're mistaking the religious beliefs with the race.
It's part of us. I would be interested to know if white people's blond hair, blue eyes, and large noses have Neanderthal origins. After all, they lived in cold climates far longer than modern humans.
The issues from TFA shed light on a the ethical complexity of genetics. Personally, I want a copy of my genome. I have some specific health related reasons I want it, but it would be cool to do things with it, like find out roughly what percentage Native American I am (I'm at least 1/32nd Cherokee), if that's even possible. Where have my mitochondria evolved most recently? Do I have the cheating gene?
Hungary has it wrong on two counts. First, they outlawed extracting genetic information except for health reasons. That's got to put a real damper on genetic research, and the Libertarian in me is crying foul. It's my genes, and I should be free to do what I want with them. Second, they're going after the genetics lab over this dumb law, rather than going after the MP for racist behavior. Let's hope we have more success in the US in drafting legislation to protect peoples right to genetic privacy, while giving people full access to data about themselves, and promoting genetic research.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
Just taking some simple observations would give you an average success rate greater than random selection so your "not at all" is wrong. For instance, pick only those with dark hair. (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7061-hair#anchor7)
I read this while stroking my red beard (courtesy of my red-headed Jewish father) and running my hair through my blond hair (courtesy of my German great-grandfather, who converted to Judaism in order to marry my great-grandmother). If it will satisfy you, though, I will rephrase the question: given a lineup of five white people with black hair, how will you determine which person is Jewish?
Why do people insist on having an airtight, scientifically sound, completely precise definition for race?
Why do people insist that a religion or culture is even related to race? Race should refer only to sets of inheritable characteristics; Judaism is not something you can inherit. I cannot convert to having dark, African skin, no matter how hard I try; yet anyone who is willing is able to convert to Judaism, and if I wanted to I could convert out of Judaism.
You're mistaking the religious beliefs with the race.
So take away the religion and the culture, and what is left? What do you think Judaism is, beyond religion and culture?
Palm trees and 8
There was a recently published book Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People By Harry Ostrer Oxford University Press. Read more: http://forward.com/articles/155742/jews-are-a-race-genes-reveal/ It was widely heralded as showing "Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal" http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664 I did not see comments calling the book extremist or hateful words being used about the author. This man had a genetic test and he is some sort of devil. The same sort of tests are carried out on Jewish people are this is fine and dandy Why the hypocrisy? I see lots of anti-racist rhetoric. But it does make me wonder. Why is it bad for the politician to investigate his race but good for Jewish people to investigate theirs. It almost make me think there is denial of the White race. It makes me think this anti-racist rhetoric is really anti-White. I've seen posted: Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White. Looks like it is true for lots of posters here.
Racial impurity is a social construct not a scientific one.DNA just exists. People with different DNA exist based entirely on the random mutations that occur within DNA and the natural jumbling that occurs at conception. You can NEVER have a pure or identical specimen because natural life proceeds through change. Therefore, the notion of purity is established as arbitrary minute differences that can always change to fit someone's political agenda.
"The test is of-course nonsense, and notions of 'racial purity' have long been discredited."
Perhaps, but before we laugh at such things I would like to point out that the U.S. government recognizes Native American heritage on less convincing evidence than a DNA sequence. It makes a difference in government benefits and tribal rights. My point is that governments regularly, and officially, pigeon-hole people into various groups based on "racial purity" or something like it. It sure seems important to a lot of people, especially when money is involved.
Proverbs 21:19
DNA USA is a readable journey through various DNA techniques and ancestry studies by the British geneticist Bryan Sykes. It covers many of the arguments discussed in this thread. Sykes has written several other books like this, which update the state of the art about every three years or so.
An interesting argument from Sykes is that after 400 years, some ancestors are edited out of your heritage. You can only have 50K contributors to the 25K pairs of genes you carry. And after 16 generators, some the ancestors no longer give you any genes. 400 years is 16 generations. To worry about a billion ancestors back 30 generations is not that important.
If good gives up, evil prevails.
As an American I get a bit of Schadenfreude, that the Europeans have seem to be less snobbish lately on their superiority, over the Americans. Right before 2008 crash, there was all this stupid talk on how much better they are for all the government provided services... Then the market crashed, America is in a recovery, Europe is still having a tons of major problems. A lot of it is due to the fact that they offered too many services that they could only afford in a strong economy, while the US and other countries who took a more Conservative approach seems to be better off.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Is there a test yet for the douchebag gene?
but I see more and more ways in which civilization moves backward. And I don't think it's just after having heard the term "Peak Civilization."
It seems logical. As resources dwindle, people retreat physically and mentally.
thegodmovie.com - watch it
Since we realized we all came out of Africa
Obligatory:
BABE: Telegram for you, Miss DiAngelo! ... Oh, uh-I'm sorry-I didn't know ... This is for you, Ma'm ... ...
LURLENE: Thank you, son. just a minute, boy! Come here
BABE: Yes?
LURLENE: Where are you from?
BABE: Nairobi, Ma'm. Isn't everybody?
--
BMO
Not the same AC, but while I'd definitely acknowledge that people who convert to Judaism are Jewish (the religion), that has nothing to do with whether or not they're ethnically Jewish. The race and the religion are not mutually inclusive.
Then define the race. There are black Jews, white Jews, Jews from the middle east, Jews from northern Europe, Jews from southern Europe, etc. What are the defining characteristics of this so-called "Jewish race?"
Palm trees and 8
A lot more of it is due to being taken advantage of by Goldman Sachs. There's nothing wrong with government providing services that it can pay for. The problem occurs when the government colludes with banks to hide the actual costs of those services.
Further problems happen when the banks who knowingly made loans to insolvent nations demand to be paid back in full, forcing austerity measures on a public who has done nothing wrong, which even further damages the economy of the country. The entire thing is a ploy by Goldman Sachs to turn Greece into an indentured servant.
The only people who did anything wrong in the European crisis are the government leaders and the banks. Those are the only parties who bear any responsibility, and those are the only parties who should have to pay.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I don't think the interbreeding did anything to propogate the genes. Where's the neandrathal DNA in modern humans?
Congress?
Legislation. So easy a caveman could do it. (apologies to the GIECO cavemen.)
Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
correction: trolls are so stupid, as is anyone who blames all Americans for being prejudiced
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
Because mass immigration and "assimilation" is imposed on ALL white countries and ONLY on white countries.It is geNOcide.Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.
Well, if I was going to define a "Jewish race", I'd say the middle east Jews. But I bet it would be interesting trying to tell them from the middle east Arabs by DNA. :)
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
George Zimmerman is a white man
nope he Hispanic/Latino
try again ac
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
I bet it would be interesting trying to tell them from the middle east Arabs by DNA. :)
Indeed; the Ethiopian Jews were found to have more DNA in common with the rest of the population of Ethiopia than with any other Jewish population (it may not be the middle east, but Ethiopia is very close to the middle east and Semitic languages are spoken there).
Palm trees and 8
Thanks for the replies. I haven't looked into this in a long time. Last I heard was that the interbreeding didn't produce fertile offspring (aka horse + donkey = mule -- though as I reread the wiki on this, I see that mules do, on a rare occasion, have offspring). Something's telling me (my brain) that there's still some truth to that. I wonder if horizontal gene transfer could account for what we're seeing. I have yet to read the linkes from your replies, so this thought needs a grain of salt.
Questions for the anti-whites: 1) If "RACE does not exist", then genocide can't happen and has never happened? 2) If "RACE is just skin color", then why is skin color so important to you? 3) If "RACE is just how people look", then why are you only against the way white people look? Why do you hate white children so much? Some anti-whites will say they want to genocide all races, which makes them mulatto-supremacists as well as criminals; I suspect however, they only say that to justify white genocide. Any which way you want to slice it, anti-whites justify white genocide. Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.
There was a controversial 2005 paper that did suggest Ashkenazi Jews may have above average math and verbal intelligence, and inferior spatial intelligence
Some 40% of Ashkenazi Jews have mitochondrial DNA descended from just four women. If those four women had DNA that encouraged above average intelligence it would be quite plausible for the same tendency to extend to a large percentage of Ashkenazi Jews.
Physical characteristics of our brains are determined to a significant extent by our genes, along with nutrition and other factors, but it is entirely plausabile that there are genetic factors that would result in above average intelligence, just like there are genetic factors that result in above average strength, stamina or speed.
Its just a matter of time before someone is going to try to genetically engineer superintelligent humans.
P.S.
Last laugh at all the people, especially interkin3tic, who fileted me on the slashdot thread a few weeks about $1000 DNA sequencing when I pointed out how neo nazi's would immediately latch on to it as a way to determine racial purity. Assorted liberals asserted that we had moved beyond Nazi's, eugenics and race and it would never happen again. I pointed out then Hungary already had a neo Nazi government going down this path again, and today here you are.
@de_machina
You can get information from the gene code to have a better probability with certain factors.
I mean,. having someone come up with an 'racial purity' test o nonsense and below the aspiration of s civilized person, but that's a separate issue.
You8 could tell that the person had no 'middle eastern' heritage, for example.
However you can also have a man who is very black, and be eastern European heritage.
Radio lav did an excellent story on this, btw.
What you can not do, is look at someone skin and build and actually know ancestral history. I'm not talking about apparent or grand parent,s but many generations.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Race as a biological intention of 'subspecies' then no, there is only humans. There are no subspecies of humans.
You don't seem to uderstand what Genocide is:
genocide/jensd/
Noun:
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
Stop confusing ethnicity with race.
"Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white."
And that is complete utter nonsense.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If it were just the MP doing this out of curiosity, I would say he is a wacko who is overly obsessed with race and genetics. Yet the purpose of doing this was almost certainly political: he likely wanted to rally support from Hungarians who hate Jews and Gypsies, and wanted to parade around this "proof" that he is not one of "them." That is why it is problematic for a company to provide this sort of testing: it fuels violence and Nazi attitudes.
Imagine if private schools or social clubs pressured people to get these tests, refusing to admit members who showed signs of being descended from Jews or Gypsies. Imagine if people were ostracized or even physically attacked if they "tested positive" for such genes. That is the sort of outcome that such testing will inevitably lead to. Hungary already has problems with ethnic violence; this sort of testing would undoubtedly fuel that.
The fact that a right-wing Hungarian website called the test "noble" rather than "irrelevant" should be all you need to know that such Nazi ideology is not yet dead.
Palm trees and 8
Not all mutations of DNA are random though - the presence of retroviruses and other mutagens represent more predictable mutations, ref. the medical correlation between some chemicals and some birth defects.
More anonymous ranting from the fearful.
"Time and time again ivory tower eggheads have turned out to be wrong, despite all their book learning."
Yes, they get new data, apply it to what they currently have. If it shows that where wrong, then say they where wrong and produce a more accurate model.
That is exactly what you want. That is why Ivory Tower Eggheads should be listen to and not made an ad hom, attack from plebes like you.
For the record, they are more often correct, and new data will modify a model, not destroy it.
Einstein didn't prove Newton wrong, he only showed the gravitational model had more complexities.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Mitochondrial DNA (mDNA) is only passed down from the mother, meaning it's not sexually mixed. This DNA is also ONLY used in the mitochondria, the DNA doesn't affect a damn thing in your body outside the Mitochondria. So even if there are 4 women who originate an entire ethnic groups Mitochondria it says NOTHING about the sexual mixing of regular DNA that has occurred over those generations. So not only can you say nothing about intelligence based on mDNA but mDNA is worthless for anything other than paternity and descendence studies.
I won't even get into genetics versus environment and the studies that have shown intelligence, ambition and knowledge are as dependent on environment (upbringing) as they are on natural advantages.
So you have definitively established that the mitochondria has no role in the function of the brain even though neurons have hundreds of mitochondria and they are essential to meeting the energy needs of neurons.
Please do share with us your innovative research.
@de_machina
Here is one of many papers, "Neuronal degeneration and mitochondrial dysfunction", where mitochondrial DNA does seem to "affect a damn thing in your body outside the Mitochondria".
Would you like to retract your kneejerk claim now or later?
@de_machina
The groups in the US who consider themselves "conservative" or "far-right" seldom advocate a society without government intervention. Most of them are in favor of lots of government intervention, but only in some areas, and only supporting them and their interests. Lots of them approve of wars against Communism, and you don't get much more interventionist than war. (Of course, Muslim is the new Commie.) Lots of them approve of government making lots of social policies, and keeping the poor people and foreigners in their places (even if they're less concerned about what color the poor are than they used to be), and about banning "obscenity" (are vibrators legal in Texas yet?), and deciding who's allowed to get married.
And they may be opposed to some kinds of government intervention in business (like environmental or worker safety regulations), but they sure want their defense contracts, and their "intellectual property" protection. And whether they like free trade or protectionism depends a lot on the business they're in (for instance, steel companies got Bush to support protectionist legislation, even though it made steel more expensive for American car manufacturers.)
And when you're talking about European far-right parties, a lot of them aren't particularly in favor of civil discourse anyway.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
It makes sense that a religious group with strong tradition would have a consistent environment. The upbringing would complement whatever innate tendency was already there. It may even encourage those lacking a genetic basis to better themselves.
Since Hungary is a EU member for the time being, why don't you use that opportunity while it exists and move elsewhere where you feel safe?
it's in their culture to reject society's values ... Maybe this will make you understand why not having Roma genes is an important thing here, as a politician
Because, as we all know, culture spreads through genes.
Hatta's right here. There have been a number of studies that show that "modern" human genetic diversity was widest in Africa, and that some of those people moved north to Europe, and some of those people moved to Asia, and some of them moved to Australia and the Pacific Islands in various groups, and others of them moved to North America. Some of the Europeans hung out with Neanderthals, and some of the Asians hung out with Denisovans, and of course there were mutations along the way, like the ones that let the Northwest Europeans drink milk as adults (and separately, the ones that let the MauMau drink milk.)
But the folks who went to different parts of Africa had a really wide genetic range compared to the ones who stayed in Kenya or went north.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The US government can cook the books all it likes, but the employment (not unemployment) numbers have barely improved at all. We're short 10 million jobs. Income is declining in real terms for every income bracket except the top 0.1%. Even if that were not so, we actually took a less conservative approach than Europe. We gave tens of trillions of dollars in welfare to the bankers and speculators who caused the problem, Europe did far less of that and far more austerity, and where there was the most austerity there have been the worst results.
Governments on both sides of the Atlantic would have been better to get equity in the big banks when they were on the ropes, in exchange for the bailout and recapitalization, effectively nationalizing all the too-big-to-exist banks. Then some real housecleaning, write-offs and mass prosecutions could take place, followed by breaking up the big banks and selling off the pieces. We also need to require them to make loans to productive enterprises as an enforced condition of their charters, rather than paying them to sit on their hands and buy treasuries as we are doing now.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
I'm not a Hungarian, and I don't have any opinion (or much knowledge) on their present state of affairs. I was merely noting that immigrating now should be much easier than when (if?) they get kicked out of EU.
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/van_hyning.html
If you're lumping black Africans all into one cluster, you've missed both Hatta's point and the point of that Wordpress article. Those "two principal components" aren't some fundamentally significant choice of axes, they're components that let you get a visually distinct separation between groups that you've already clustered. So that picture was useful in showing differences between Africans, Europeans, Asians, Australians, and Native Americans. But if you were to split the Africans into 10 or 20 clusters, you'd see a lot more variation between those clusters than between the Europeans and the nearest African groups. For instance, compare the Kalahari Bushmen with the Eastern and Western Pygmy groups in the Congo, the Zulus, the Mau-Mau and other Kenyans, the Bantu groups, the Berbers in Morocco, the Tuareg, etc.
Or for more precision, look at the Wikipedia pages for the L0 mitochondria haplogroup vs. L1, L3, L6, etc. and this picture. Non-African humans are all part of subgroups L3M and L3N, people who left Africa for Arabia a while back. (L3N is mostly in Europe, L3M mostly in Asia.) The Y-chromosome data isn't as well-sampled, but Wikipedia's Y-Chromosomal Adam page also suggests that most of the diversity's in Africa.
And yes, there's also evidence of Neandertal in European genetics and Denisovans in Melanesia, though not in the Y chromosomes or mitochondria, and some other hominids in Sub-Saharan African genetics as well.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The title in GATTACA was chosen using the letters A, C, G, T... as in:
Adenine
Cytosine
Guanine
Thymine
(The four bases of DNA).
Mike
Depending on whose calculations you like, Jacob's birthdate was probably about 1650 BCE, and there are number of Y-chromosomal genetic studies of descendents of his son Cohen (Most of whom have names that are variant spellings, like Cohan, Kohan, Garfinkel, etc.) There's a good Wikipedia article on Jewish genetics.
But no, genetic mixing isn't that as thorough and widespread as you'd think. People tend to marry people from the same culture, who speak the same languages, non-nomadic people tend to marry within their own village, nomadic people within their own tribe. Very few non-Jewish non-Arabs have Jacob as an ancestor (or at least have Rachel or Leah as ancestors - polygamy stuck around for another 1500-2000 years in that area.)
Some connections are easier to trace (paternal lines through Y-chromosome, maternal through mitochondria), though of course you don't get any information from your father's mother's mitochondria or your mother's father's Y-chromosome, so you're mostly limited to statistical analysis from other traits unless there are distinct mutations available to work with.
It does look like we're all descendants of "Mitochondrial Eve" about 200,000 years ago, and "Y-Chromosomal Adam" about 140,000 years ago, though of course there were lots of other humanish men and women around back then - they're just the ones whose easily traceable genes stuck around
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
You are psychotic, and need mental help. I shouldn't respond to a post from a psychopath. It's just plain stupid, but I can be sometimes. My children are 1/4 Jewish genetically, although I think it's really more of a cultural than genetic heritage. I'm Unitarian, and the only belief drilled into me as a child is to respect other's religious beliefs, at least so long as they don't try to force me to adopt them.
I'm guessing you consider yourself either Christian or Muslim. I am quite sure authorities of both religions reject you as a worshiper, as will God, if he does sit in judgement, when you die.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
So you're going to back up a discredited source by using the same discredited source?
I'd like you to explain why it is jews got kicked from nearly every european nation then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism
Ethnicity, religion, being seen as outsiders, jealousy, and scapegoats. The question is why do people like you still fixate so much on a class of people. What is it with the Internet loonies and antisemitism?
I've known several Jews personally, and they were mostly good people, and they were just people with the same strengths, foibles, and concerns as the rest of us.
It is just as silly as the stuff written in the old and new testament and in islam. All these primitive tribal religions were full of this nonsense. I have dug into it but i am sure buddhists, shintoists etc have equally embarrassing things. All religion is stupid and to follow the dictates of the writings of goatherders means you get what you expect.
Gak, ignore half of that, I was low on caffeine, of course it was Levi who was Jacob's son (and there are some genetic studies there), the Kohans are descended from Aaron, mostly, who was of course several generations later.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I'm not Jewish :)
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
Only problem is, that's a collection of mind-bendingly out-of-context quotes and outright fabrications, penned by the KKK.
I beg to differ! I am a direct descendent of the first ever human(s) lol.
It seems the Jews and the Roma are the real winners here.
Its just a matter of time before someone is going to try to genetically engineer superintelligent humans.
There's a whole bunch of reason why that's not possible without resorting to external hardware additions. Our brains have been optimized by a billion years of evolution and the gains to be had are very tiny, unless you want to rebuild the whole thing from scratch ! The main limit is energetic: our brain already consumes an awful lot of energy to run even in 'sleep' mode. But there are other limits like the number of neurons, the number of connections, evacuation of waste heat, etc... Read a paper about that recently and it was interesting.
Non-Linux Penguins ?
You should know that most (probably all but I don't have all day) of those examples are inaccurate (some to the point of being ridiculous), incomplete, or have the meaning changed by being taken out of context. For example see this site which offers actual explanations.
I did explain it, but you completely ignored it. "Ethnicity, religion, being seen as outsiders, jealousy, and scapegoats." It's not like this kind of thing hasn't been going on for different classes of people throughout history.
Now answer my question: "The question is why do people like you still fixate so much on a class of people. What is it with the Internet loonies and antisemitism?"
Prove it using a reliable source. Anybody can take the writings, for example, of the KKK and pretend they are part of an official religious text, or just make something up outright, but that doesn't make it true. If what you wrote is true, instead of just parroting some antisemitic propaganda, then it will have been documented and be online as part of a whole.
You imply all nations that kicked jews out of their lands are bad
First of all, there was this bit of history called the Crusades, where Christianity as a whole was acting like the dicks you make the Jews out to be. In general, people have been acting like dicks to each other over cultural, religious, and ethnic differences for quite some time.
Second, you don't talk about all the nations where Jews weren't kicked out, and having lived in the United States my entire life among Jews, I call bullshit over your attempts to denigrate an entire class of people.
Especially since it has been happening to the jews since ancient Egyptian times and in many nations that are not the same.
Yeah, and many nations enslaved entire races of people as a routine matter. World history has been pretty ugly. Do you think you have the right to own a black slave, or have you moved beyond that?
Are you jewish?
No. I'm an atheist, secular humanist, and have no Jewish genealogy.
On antisemitism, I didn't write the list in that link but your reaction shows defensive posture on your part. If anyone is racist, it's jews, and from their own laws in the talmud.
Of course you didn't write it. You just copy-pasted it from some antisemitic propaganda site and took it as unadulterated truth without any skepticism because it feeds your loony, Internet hatred to give some purpose to your otherwise meaningless life.
Correction. He's a fucking idiot. I'm so happy that racist douches post on Slashdot.
Mitochondria are the energy factories of cells. They could indirectly negatively affect any other part of the body if the mDNA is damaged. Likewise a coding for higher energy efficiency in neuronal mitochondria could result in better neural operation, resulting in higher intelligence. But then it would be likely that the same person would have better energy efficiency in all cells. Perhaps higher metabolism overall etc. (intelligent skinny people?). (intelligent skinny jews?). Its possible.
I think people are jealous and fearful of the supportive and exclusivist culture. They do seem to gain quite a bit of traction in the world of finance and law and to a lesser extent other areas.
There is certainly the risk for some very devestating effects on the brain and body from malfunctioning mitochondria. That does however not necessarily imply that different mitochondria will work very differently when they do perform their function.
That is, of the (few) viable human mitochondria genomes we know of, there doesn't have to be much difference in function just because mutations into non-viable mitochondria genomes have strong degenerative effects. Not saying there couldn't possibly be such differences, but it would return the burden of proof to you to show some research to demonstrate this (different mDNA leading to differences in traits for example such as intelligence) to be the case.
Interesting points, and it makes me wonder why "The test is of-course nonsense". One need not be racist to acknowledge that there are genetic differences between groups of people.
In Reason We Trust
Mitochondria do pretty much one thing: convert sugar to energy for the cell. It doesn't control any development despite a malfunction having severe effects.
Grar II
Time to be picky, picky, picky ...
The quotes aren't examples of racism; they're example of xenophobia. Racism means fear or hatred of others based on race. But the targets of these quotes included people who were genetically close relatives of the Jews of the time, so they're not actually based on race. The term Goyim referred to everyone outside the Jewish social group, which is what xenophobia deals with.
Actually, "goyim" is often translated as "nations", which is a closer English match for the meaning. It has been common (for Jews and non-Jews) to view the Jews as a "national" group, which is the basis of considering them disloyal outsiders. The parent's quotes are simply the same thing seen from the Jewish side. The same attitudes are easily found about other religious groups, e.g., Catholics and Muslims.
Of course, it has become common for people to use "racism" to mean "saying something I don't like about someone I do like". But this sorta cheapens the term. It's a more useful term if it's used in its basic meaning of classifying people by superficial racial characteristics. The English language also has useful words for social divisions based on other criteria.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
So not only can you say nothing about intelligence based on mDNA but mDNA is worthless for anything other than paternity and descendence studies.
Wait -- How can you use mDNA for determining paternity? It's only passed via the maternal line. I seem to have missed something about mitochondrial DNA ...
(Actually, I've read claims that the occasional sperm cell contains one or more mitochondria. So it's possible that a tiny amount of our mitochondrial DNA comes from a male ancestor. )
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Jeez; how many times did you post this? I counted 33 copies, totalling more than half of the lines showing in my copy of the discussion, and I don't even have it set to show everything.
Flooding a discussion like this with identical copy&paste tirades is usually a good way to find yourself banned by just about any serious discussion site.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Some people get a joke, some don't...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Well I don't know if the original family had this intention or not. As for the switch happening, he looks conciderably different than his family. though a lot of this I cannot verify, as anyone that would know is too old to remember or dead now. And I believe this was the Ukraine actually.