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Subcontractor Tells Fukushima Workers To Hide Radiation Exposure

First time accepted submitter fredprado writes "Apparently at least one subcontractor hired to clean up the Fukushima site has been urging their workers to put their radiation detectors lined under lead shieldings. A diagram can be seen here. The authorities decided not to prosecute him, even after one employee presenting them recordings of him trying to talk the said employee into it."

439 comments

  1. seems fine to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    makes sense; those things are probably expensive and, I gather, are sensitive to radiation. Don't want to risk damaging them.

    1. Re:seems fine to me by msauve · · Score: 5, Funny

      By similar logic, people should drive at night with their headlights off. If they can't be seen, it makes it harder for other drivers to hit them.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    2. Re:seems fine to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      aeroplane? superman?

    3. Re:seems fine to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Superman is kinda tricky, but planes are also less likely to hit.

    4. Re:seems fine to me by sco08y · · Score: 2

      By similar logic, people should drive at night with their headlights off. If they can't be seen, it makes it harder for other drivers to hit them.

      That's good advice in some places.

    5. Re:seems fine to me by ozmanjusri · · Score: 2

      Don't want to risk damaging them.

      Of course. Much better to damage cheaper, more expendable, replaceable components.

      And of course, it's much better to talk about this detector issue than the 36 percent Of Fukushima kids who have abnormal thyroid growths. We don't want people to think there may be negative consequences to nuclear power.

      1. "It is extremely rare to find cysts and thyroid nodules in children."

      2. "This is an extremely large number of abnormalities to find in children."

      3. "You would not expect abnormalities to appear so early — within the first year or so — therefore one can assume that they must have received a high dose of [radiation]."

      4. "It is impossible to know, from what [officials in Japan] are saying, what these lesions are."

      Dr. Helen Caldicott, pediatrician, about the implications of the study.

      http://www.businessinsider.com/fukushima-children-have-abnormal-thyroid-growths-2012-7

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    6. Re:seems fine to me by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Funny

      By similar logic, people should drive at night with their headlights off. If they can't be seen, it makes it harder for other drivers to hit them.

      Right. I think you're catching on. An extra advantage is, when your lights are on, the light going out pushes your car backwards. That's alright if you want it, but if you turn off your lights, you can literally save gas. And gas is our most valuable natural resource.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:seems fine to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Japs enjoy being nuked so they can have all those great flying monsters.

    8. Re:seems fine to me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Dr. Helen Caldicott, pediatrician, about the implications of the study.

      Bah, that's a consequence of her being Australian and living so close to the anti-nuke Kiwis. The Japanese say there is no problem. There is no problem. Repeat after me, throw away your radiation tags, there is no problem.

    9. Re:seems fine to me by jrumney · · Score: 1

      How can a foreign doctor know anything about the unique physiology of the Japanese anyway?

    10. Re:seems fine to me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Have they identified which one goes on to mate with a giant Japanese Crocogator and create Godzilla?

    11. Re:seems fine to me by ciderbrew · · Score: 1

      If you turn the lights off and stop the car, are you then going at light speed?

      All resources are natural.

    12. Re:seems fine to me by penix1 · · Score: 1

      therefore one can assume that they must have received a high dose of [radiation]."

      And we all know what happens when you assume...

      That is the problem with studies. To quote an old /. meme....

      "Correlation != Causation."

      It can be any number of things causing the irregularities. Everything from a change in diet (most of the food supply has to be imported because of the larger disaster) to increases in natural radiation sources such as the sun. Without ruling them out, they risk being found very wrong with very real consequences.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    13. Re:seems fine to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WHOOSH went the joke over ozmanjusri's head

    14. Re:seems fine to me by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      You've been to France I see.

    15. Re:seems fine to me by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Of course a nuclear radiation leak is significant and obvious, and also obviously important to stop. Given likelihood coupled with at the very least a lack of other obvious actions and the determined need to compensate for these mutations, it's more prudent to use this as a starting point and treat these as likely radiation poisoning--that means check and treat these people for further radiation damage. It's also notable that we should clean up or dilute the radiation sources presumed to be the cause.

      Your basic argument is a deceptive one: it suggests that we should never do anything because we're never 100% certain if it's the best course. In some cases, a slow reaction is as bad or worse than an incorrect reaction; and in others, gathering knowledge and even conjecture from observations serves a great purpose when a problem is later tackled, as you can examine the various reasonings and make a better decision (even if said reasonings conflict--or if they change and refine over time).

    16. Re:seems fine to me by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      Probably Springfield, capital of Illinois. People drive stupidly here. There's a local joke about a man from New York visiting Chicago. The New Yorker gets in a cab, and the cab driver promptly runs a red light.

      "You ran a red light!"

      "It's ok, I'm from Springfield!" A mile down the road and he runs another. "YOU RAN ANOTHR ONE!!!" the excited passenger exclaims.

      "Don't worry, I'm from Springfield".

      The next light is green, and the cab driver slams on the brakes. "WTF did you do that for???" the passenger asks.

      "My brother's in town. He's from Springfield, too."

    17. Re:seems fine to me by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Read Shibumi.

    18. Re:seems fine to me by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      My car's got lights at the back as well as the front...

      --
      No sig today...
    19. Re:seems fine to me by krakelohm · · Score: 1

      Bingo, there ya go, turn off your lights and keep your feet planted on both the gas and brake, who needs those stupid turbos.

      --
      You are all a bunch of idots.
    20. Re:seems fine to me by sco08y · · Score: 1

      You've been to France I see.

      Haha, funny, I've heard people rave about driving around the French countryside, but, yeah, I think I'd stick to touring the cities on foot.

      I live around DC, and we get tons of new drivers from all over who have never driven around here before, and a lot of them are the super aggressive political types, or they're driving government vehicles and don't give a fuck. By the time they've mellowed out a little, there's a new administration and you get a whole new batch of assholes.

  2. This is why we need more unions and more workers r by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is why we need more unions and more workers rights.

    and they should be able to use contractors and subcontractors to get out being liable.

  3. That Poster... by newcastlejon · · Score: 2

    Is there a translation? This is quite a serious allegation if true.

    --
    If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    1. Re:That Poster... by mysidia · · Score: 2

      It's a serious allegation. And there's more coverage than one article in Japanese.

      However... I wonder how "effective" that little bit of lead shielding would actually be at "hiding" radiation exposure.

      A tiny little shielding that you can wear like that won't deflect a whole lot of certain kinds of radiation. If you have a dosimeter reading from behind the shielding, it's likely possible that officials will "correct" the reading, based on the radiation deflection characteristics of the shield, and the readings taken behind the shield, it will be possible to estimate the radiation dosage that occurs without the shielding.

      If a little bit of lead was that effective, the entire suit would be made out of the material.

      To deflect a whole lot of radiation, you need 1" or greater thickness, which would be totally impractical for a worker to wear, due to the excessive weight of the lead.

    2. Re:That Poster... by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      Yes, I did read TFA. I was curious about what that poster actually says.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    3. Re:That Poster... by ChumpusRex2003 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The lead is likely very effective at reducing recorded exposure - probably cutting it by 75-90%. Most of the radiation in a typical fission product incident is beta radiation, which will be substantially attenuated by 1 mm of lead (the beta particles won't get through, but probably 1-2% of their energy may get through as bremmstrahlung X-rays). Gamma rays, will also be attenuated but only by a few % (high energy direct photons won't be significantly affected, but photons scattered from concrete, etc. will be of much lower energy, so will tend to be heavily attenuated).

      There are plenty of radiation suits that offer 0.1 or 0.2 mm lead equivalent protection (they don't usually contain lead for environmental reasons, bismuth is usually used instead). These are quite useful for protection against beta energy, even if they do nothing for gamma. However, the sheer weight of even a 0.2 mm lead suit makes it only barely practical (though I understand the US military have bought a lot of them).

      However, lead boots are a sensible precaution - most of the radiation in a Fukushima type incident is in the form of water soluble or suspended particles, which pool on the floor in puddles. Severe radiation injury to the feet from beta emitters is possible - 1mm lead equivalent rubber boots are tolerable to wear, and would offer substantial protection to the feet.

    4. Re:That Poster... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not proficient in Japanese, but let's try.

      The title on the upper left says "Diagram for equipping the lead cover."

      On the left we have a diagram showing the dosimeter, and the sensor locations. Below that, the magenta arrows are labelled "radiation", and the cloth is labelled "breast pocket". This is accompanied with an arrow to the diagram on the right, saying "inside the protective suit".

      On the upper right, the diagram labels the yellow protective suit.

      On the mid/lower right, it's not part of the diagram anymore. The newspaper seems to have added the two photos and their captions. They read:

      "Same shape as the personal electronic dosimeter that the workers wear. (APD)"

      "Based on the comments of workers, a lead cover that Asahi Shimbun reproduced"

      I'm afraid I cannot translate the white-on-black text on the left without looking up a bunch of kanji but it says something about lowering something and naming it "something-hider".

  4. Don't panic by arcite · · Score: 4, Funny

    Three eyed fish are delicious.

    1. Re:Don't panic by CHIT2ME · · Score: 1

      And you can more of it, faster, if you have 3 arms!!!

      --
      My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
    2. Re:Don't panic by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I'm eagerly waiting for the fukushima roll.

    3. Re:Don't panic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like Blinky!

  5. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We? Last time I checked, America and Japan were not the same nation...

  6. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by spire3661 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Codify workers rights in LAW, not illegal pooling of power.

    --
    Good-bye
  7. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is why we need more unions and more workers rights.

    and they should be able to use contractors and subcontractors to get out being liable.

    Yeah, right.

    Unions help curb criminal behavior.

    What color is the sky on your planet?

  8. one good result: by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

    the Japanese people will no longer blindly trust their government

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:one good result: by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Insightful

      it's ok to think the government would do a poor job at providing for our health

      but it's insane to think corporations would do a better job

      therefore, you choose government

      for example, those europeans with universal healthcare live longer than americans, and pay less for their healthcare

      because the american model is not about our health, it is about maximizing profit

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    2. Re:one good result: by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      Why are corporations the only alternative? Why wouldn't you prefer rely on yourself?

      If you think that Americans live shorter lives than Europeans because of the respective health care systems, how do you explain that Japanese immigrants to America live longer than Japanese in Japan (who live longer than Europeans)?

      --
      JOIN US FOR PONG!
    3. Re:one good result: by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ask the working poor who can't afford health insurance how that private medicine thing is working out.

      There is nothing more evil or idiotic than blind ideology.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:one good result: by lessthan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because I have better things to be doing. (Like posting on Slashdot.) The problem with self-reliance is that it requires you to be an expert at everything you do. Not just proficient, but an expert. If the healthcare company includes a screw-you clause and you miss it, then you are screwed. Think of the Hurricane Katrina disaster. The insurance companies sold many people hurricane insurance. A lot of people lost their houses to the storm surge, which the insurance claimed was "flood damage" and, if you didn't have flood insurance, you were out of luck.

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    5. Re:one good result: by fredprado · · Score: 1

      One does not need to be an expert to contract private health care. That is an absurd exaggeration.

      Yes, insurances can be tricky and sometimes companies find loopholes to screw you, but, on the other hand, governments are incapable of providing a service with similar or better quality in high population countries. The only countries where public health care really works are countries where the population is relatively small.

      Furthermore nothing prevents you from saving the money and using for treatment whenever you need it. Save for extreme cases it tends even to be a cheaper approach than insurances (health insurance companies are profitable entities after all), and you have full control over it. Again I should point that you don't need to be an expert to do it either.

    6. Re:one good result: by Goaway · · Score: 1

      It is pretty condescending of you to suggest they have been "blindly trusting" anyone up until now.

      And I am somewhat unclear on how the fact that a company forced its employees to lie and put them at risk is going to make them distrustful of the government?

    7. Re:one good result: by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Why are corporations the only alternative? Why wouldn't you prefer rely on yourself?

      Why would you prefer to rely on yourself in a moment of weakness - such as injury or illness - rather than cashing in on the benefits of living in a society? Why pretend that you're alone when you're not?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    8. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah I know because shit like that has never happened before, not in Japan.... Oh wait, it has:

      Pick

      your

      poison

      !!!

    9. Re:one good result: by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, insurances can be tricky and sometimes companies find loopholes to screw you, but, on the other hand, governments are incapable of providing a service with similar or better quality in high population countries. The only countries where public health care really works are countries where the population is relatively small.

      This is manifestly false. As GP noted, all first world countries with public healthcare show better bang for the buck in that department than does US with its privatized healthcare model. This is regardless of whether they are countries of 3 million or 80 million.

    10. Re:one good result: by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      They never blindly trusted them. Don't forget they suffered terribly during WW2 thanks to the government, and the suspicion never really went away. Similarly there has been a sizeable anti-nuclear movement from day one, and Fukushima was not the first nuclear accident or scandal in Japan.

      --
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    11. Re:one good result: by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      I suppose you believe that I'd prefer to grow all of my food and make my clothes, too. Well, at least then I guess I'd have a use for a man made of straw.

      --
      JOIN US FOR PONG!
    12. Re:one good result: by sjames · · Score: 1

      A combination of diet and the fact that sickly people rarely immigrate.

      Note that Japanese != European.

    13. Re:one good result: by sjames · · Score: 1

      Yes, there is evidence that the U.S. government doesn't really care if the 99% live or die. That's why it keeps pushing healthcare of to corporations.

      On the other hand, the governments of MOST 1st world countries doi seem to care. That's why they have universal health care.

    14. Re:one good result: by sjames · · Score: 1

      Why are corporations the only alternative? Why wouldn't you prefer rely on yourself?

      Do let us know how that DIY coronary bypass goes. :-)

    15. Re:one good result: by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      Yes, in fact, Japanese > European, as far as life expectancy is concerned.

      --
      JOIN US FOR PONG!
    16. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a communist living in Belgium. I pay 200EUR per annum for my health insurance, 100EUR of which is for a higher level of coverage beyond the basic level, so I could opt to pay only 100EUR.

      It works. I don't worry ever about my heath costs.

      There was a good article in the New Yorker recently by their regular medical columnist - a guy with an indian name which escapes me. Within the US you get huge variations in outcomes. The Mayo clinic is incredibly efficient and has extremely good outcomes for its patients for a very low cost. He compared this with a private clinic in Texas which was x times more expensive and had much lower patient outcomes. In the Texas setup the doctors were incentivised to perform procedures on the patients. In the Mayo clinic there was no financial motivation.

      The Japanese may no longer trust their government. Whether or not they will be less deferential is another question...

    17. Re:one good result: by fredprado · · Score: 1

      But it is very clear that those with smaller populations have better healthcare. As population rises you will almost always see a drop in quality of any public service, and health care is no exception. There is no example of a country with hundreds of millions of citizens and even reasonably good health care. The only one that comes close is Japan, which has a population of around 125 million and whose health care is only 70% payed for the government (30% of the costs are payed by the patient). Have you never questioned yourself why, except for US, there is no other first world country with more than a couple hundreds of million citizens.

    18. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's ok to think the government would do a poor job at providing for our health
      but it's insane to think corporations would do a better job

      This. A government has no incentive to provide you with competent care. A corporation has a financial incentive to deny you care.

    19. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the problem you have has nothing to do with the health care industry, and everything to do with the insurance industry?

    20. Re:one good result: by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      for example, those europeans with universal healthcare live longer than americans, and pay less for their healthcare

      Can you please adjust for things like lifestyle choices next time you post this please? If you don't start with good facts, you aren't going to make good choices.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    21. Re:one good result: by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You could try to use this argument against a federal public health care system, but not against such run by the states, since they are comparable in size to most other Western countries.

    22. Re:one good result: by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't you prefer rely on yourself?

      Because you can't be an expert in everything. And have you ever tried to give yourself an appendectomy? The angles don't work out unless you have a mirrored ceiling, and even then, you lose the close up detail.

    23. Re:one good result: by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      One does not need to be an expert to contract private health care.

      Yes, but the question was about government vs corporate control. Most private health care is corporate owned. If we eliminate both government and corporate care, you are left getting an MD just to take care of yourself and your family.

    24. Re:one good result: by fredprado · · Score: 1

      Again reality says otherwise. States do not have the same resources of the Union and lack its autonomy.

      Additionally states are forced to attend to any citizen of the union, which causes additional problems. Lets say a state manages to create a functional model of health care which is much better than the other states approach and actually works. People with serious issues would migrate to said state increasing the costs until the system would collapse.

      To avoid that specific laws would have to be created to force people to treat themselves in the State they reside and prevent them from moving in case they need some costly medical treatment. Afaik no country in this World has managed to make laws of this nature as it is against most constitutions.

    25. Re:one good result: by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>it's ok to think the government would do a poor job at providing for our health
      >>>but it's insane to think corporations would do a better job
      >>>therefore, you choose government

      That presumes there's only two choices. The benefit of a free market is that there are literally thousands of insurance corporations to choose from. And hundreds of thousands of hospitals. And millions of doctors. Sure some might suck, so you just avoid them.

      The alternative you propose, government, is a monopoly..... it takes away freedom of choice. It is no better than if Microsoft held a monopoly over desktops & phones, or if Comcast held a monopoly over internet access, or if GM made all the world's cars. Just because you remove the label "Microsoft" or "Comcast" or "GM" and replace it with "Congress" does not automatically make the monopoly preferable.

      I want a pro-choice solution where *I* decide which insurance I want to buy, which hospital to visit, which doctor to trust. I want the power in *my* hands, not to have the power taken away.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    26. Re:one good result: by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      Again reality says otherwise. States do not have the same resources of the Union and lack its autonomy.

      And yet Canadian healthcare system was started by and is still managed by the provinces. Go ahead, look it up.

      Additionally states are forced to attend to any citizen of the union

      What made you believe that? The states can certainly restrict treatment to their citizens if need be.

      . Lets say a state manages to create a functional model of health care which is much better than the other states approach and actually works. People with serious issues would migrate to said state increasing the costs until the system would collapse.

      Again, Canada managed to do just that and survive. Saskatchewan was the first province to introduce universal healthcare, and it took 15 years for other provinces to catch up. But it turned out that once the first province was willing to run the experiment, and it proved to work, others had much more incentive to follow up.

      To avoid that specific laws would have to be created to force people to treat themselves in the State they reside and prevent them from moving in case they need some costly medical treatment.

      A far simpler arrangement would be for all states which do have universal public healthcare to form a single contiguous system whereby they do transfers and take care of each others' citizens as needed, but exclude citizens of states that do not participate. They wouldn't have to restrict moving - in most states, you have to establish residency therein to be considered a citizen, you can't just waltz in and expect to be treated as one right away.

    27. Re:one good result: by fredprado · · Score: 2

      Cadana has less than 35 million inhabitants with the resources of a continental country. UK, South Korea, France, Germany and Spain all have higher populations with far less resources.

      And yes, you can just waltz in and move to another State easily in any democratic country, and depending on the costs of the treatment it is far cheaper to rent an address in a relatively low cost area just to be treated in that state.

      You are trying to defend that something that has never been done, to achieve universal quality health care paid by the government in a country of populations in the order of several hundred million people, can be done. All I can say is that although I can't really prove that it is impossible it has never been done before. It works the other way around though, you can't really prove that it isn't just your wishful thinking speaking, and chances are it is.

      I am not a US citizen. I live in Brazil. We do have universal public health care, but the quality is beyond terrible. You either have a good health care plan, money to pay yourself for the treatments in good places, or you wait in line until you die. And before you say: "But Brazil is not a first world country", I would like to remind you that we have the 5th economy in the World, and we are about to pass France for the 4th place. Only Germany has a significant better GDP than we have in Europe.

    28. Re:one good result: by lessthan · · Score: 1

      Actually, something does prevent me from using treatment when I need it. The cost. Testicular cancer treatment (I don't have it, I just need a specific example.) is around $85,000. I'm a student, I made about $10,000 last year and most of it was sunk into books, food, and housing. I'm never going to have $170,000 lying around. (double the amount because, what if it comes back? My grandmother died that way. Beat breast cancer once and it came back before she even had a chance to recover from the first bout.) You can argue that I should have that much stashed away or since I don't have that kind of money I should just lay down and die, but where are those arguments going to get you?

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    29. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, something with equal probability of happening, Americans will no longer blindly trust NBC.

      Look, I have no idea whether this is true or not, but almost everything printed in the English press about Fukushima has been horribly flawed. As far as I can tell, every time the western press has reported that the government has been lying, the reality has been that they just got it wrong in the first place and blamed it on poor information from the government. As a Canadian living in Japan, who speaks Japanese, I have been astounded at how often the Japanese press would publish something, the western press would publish completely conflicting information, then 3 weeks later the western press would change their story to the original Japanese one and complain that they were lied to.

      Very recently, there was a news report (in BBC, I think) which stated that all the Japanese nuclear power plants were shut down and that the government had promised to keep them shut down. But in the Japanese news the prime minister was discussing how it was impossible to keep the nuclear power plants closed and that at the very least 2 reactors in Osaka would have to be reopened. At the same time TEPCO was reporting that they expected to reopen at least half of the nuclear power plants. I walked down to the nuclear power plant near me (the infamous Hamaoka powerplant -- yes, I live close enough that I can walk there...) and asked them if they were planning to reopen. Granted, it was a receptionist who told me, but they made no secret that they were intending to reopen.

      It's incredibly frustrating, *especially* when I see well meaning posts like yours wanting to warn people of misinformation, the amount of misinformation spread by the western media. Whether it is intentional or they are just incompetant (maybe they don't speak Japanese???), I don't know.

      Anyway, this story *could* be true. Or not. So far, it has been reported by Kyodo news, which is not a reliable source in my opinion. The original story links to an NHK report (which is probably relatively reliable) which does't appear to exist any more (if it ever did). Reuters' involvement in the NBC story does nothing to bolster my confidence as they are the main problem, it seems, in getting reliable information out of Japan.

      I'm still waiting to find other confirmation -- especially Japanese language confirmation. So far, all I've been able to find is the Kyodo English report.

      I don't particularly trust the Japanese government, but I have good reason to mistrust the western media even more (much to my great disappointment).

    30. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strange, I posted a rant about not trusting the press and I can't find it, even browsing at -1... Oh well.

      Because I really didn't trust the source of the English story, I eventually found a link to a Japanese NHK story. I don't know why, but English language reports of Fukushima have been terrible, so it's always a good idea to try to find confirmation in the Japanese press (who have had a better track record of reporting accurate information, from my experience). For those who speak Japanese: http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20120721/k10013750711000.html

    31. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The funny thing is they will still be looked after better than most Americans. Sucks to be you America.

    32. Re:one good result: by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I am not a US citizen. I live in Brazil. We do have universal public health care, but the quality is beyond terrible. You either have a good health care plan, money to pay yourself for the treatments in good places, or you wait in line until you die. And before you say: "But Brazil is not a first world country", I would like to remind you that we have the 5th economy in the World, and we are about to pass France for the 4th place. Only Germany has a significant better GDP than we have in Europe.

      GDP is not a good measure of "First World", though. What matters more is how it's distributed and what it's used for. I'm not a US citizen either, though I live here for the time being - I'm a citizen of Russia, another country with large GDP but poor implementation of social welfare net. This has nothing to do with the size of the country, though, and everything with the incredibly corrupt bureaucracy and government.

    33. Re:one good result: by fredprado · · Score: 1

      It is difficult to measure development. My country, not unlike US, has a lot of traits that are generally associated with a First World country, and others that are not. We have a lot of things in common, though. Both countries have a democratic government, a lot of corruption, terrible public services, lots of poor people and very few miserable people, a huge amount of natural resources, and a huge population. The main difference between us is the level of industrialization, in which US beats us hands down, but still we have a lot of base industry.

      For the sake of this discussion about public health care, US and Brazil are more alike than US and any "First World" country in the world.

    34. Re:one good result: by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      i don't have a problem with you

      i have a problem with the assholes who think they have a right to choose not to get any insurance, then, when they break their arm, avoid the bill or declare bankruptcy. freeloaders. then we have to catch the slack with our taxes and insurance rates

      they apparently believe freedom is freedom from responsibility

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    35. Re:one good result: by orangebook · · Score: 0

      And what has a countrie's GDP to do with belonging or not the Third/First World? In GDP per capita, Brazil stands the 75th in the world. Enough said.

    36. Re:one good result: by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      I should note that most first world countries with universal health care still use the private model for providers. I think that what Fred was trying to say is that it's the Insurance companies, more than the providers, that is driving our insane healthcare costs, and I think he's right.

      If you're willing to shop around a bit and your illness is treatable short of the hospital(which all plan more on money from insurance anyways), you can get care much cheaper. My insurance-less brother has been able to get most of his care with a 'cash up front' discount of between 50-75%, and that's over the insurance rates.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    37. Re:one good result: by TheInternetGuy · · Score: 2

      It is pretty condescending of you to suggest they have been "blindly trusting" anyone up until now.

      And I am somewhat unclear on how the fact that a company forced its employees to lie and put them at risk is going to make them distrustful of the government?

      As someone who lives in Japan, I can truly say that at least up till 3/11 the Japanese majority was exactly blindly trusting the government. And the few that did not trust the government,did not care. This is all changing now. Well there are still many that don't care, but at least there are a good percentage of people really starting to questioning the system, ready to take the red pill and unplug.

      --
      If my comment didn't sound as good in your head as it did in mine, then I guess we all know who's to blame
    38. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are trying to defend that something that has never been done, to achieve universal quality health care paid by the government in a country of populations in the order of several hundred million people, can be done.

      USA as its name implies is composed of multiple semi-independent states none bigger than any European country. What's preventing each state from implementing a universal health care system that works best for them? If the federal goverment tries to make one shoe fit for all and fails, then that's obviously the wrong approach. There's no reason USA can't step down the granularity and let states handle the implementation details, just like EU does.

      I am not a US citizen. I live in Brazil. We do have universal public health care, but the quality is beyond terrible. You either have a good health care plan, money to pay yourself for the treatments in good places, or you wait in line until you die. And before you say: "But Brazil is not a first world country", I would like to remind you that we have the 5th economy in the World, and we are about to pass France for the 4th place.

      You're referring to the aged UN definition of a first world country, where GDB is the only measurement. Obviously the size of GDB doesn't correlate well with the quality of universal health care, nor does it define other Human Development Indices. The problem is much more complicated, but I wouldn't be suprised if Brazil's scewed distribution of wealth and education has something to do with the bad quality of universal health care. These two parameters are at least clearly different in Europe. Perhaps Europeans are more educated to demand better services from their goverment.

    39. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am somewhat unclear on how the fact that a company forced its employees to lie and put them at risk is going to make them distrustful of the government?

      Because said government refused to prosecute?

    40. Re:one good result: by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Government-run organizations tend to be inefficient, but are not as sneaky as private counterparts. It's a matter of problems of sneakiness being greater or lessor than problems caused be inefficiency. For certain domains, one tends to exceed the other.

    41. Re:one good result: by harpake · · Score: 1

      You do know Brazil isn't at the same level as 1st world countries in GDP per capita. Compared to other larger European countries like France or Germany, you spend less of your GDP on health care (9% vs. their 11%). So not only do you have more people to care for (almost 3 times as many as France!), you spend less money to do so.

    42. Re:one good result: by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Exactly my thought. I'd LOVE to see the "Religious Healthshare" model expanded and compared- Maybe a few Atheist Libertarians would even join in to show us how much better their home colloidal silver first aid is, and a few atheistic communists would join in to show us how everybody living together in a hospital and paying 100% of their income to the commune would be. And my tribe, the Catholics, could once again have hospitals with large maternity wards and no abortions.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    43. Re:one good result: by ewok85 · · Score: 1

      GDP per capita is the stat you want

    44. Re:one good result: by ewok85 · · Score: 1

      In Japan you would pay afterwards, and even then you would never even pay more than 5k

    45. Re:one good result: by ewok85 · · Score: 1

      I've seen some very interesting papers which suggest the high life expectancy numbers are a result of the long food shortages before the war, coupled with modern healthcare and continued low calorie diets of the pre-war generations.

      You'll see a big drop in life expectancy as the baby boomers get closer to that magic number - the generation gap is incredible!

    46. Re:one good result: by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>i have a problem with the assholes who think they have a right to choose not to get any insurance, then, when they break their arm, avoid the bill or declare bankruptcy. Freeloaders

      They can do no such thing.
      The hospital will sue them, the judge will extract the money from their savings accounts or paychecks, and they will be forced to pay back the cost of their ~$10,000 broken arm repair (plus court and lawyer costs).

      And if they are too poor to payback the bill, well then they should have been getting free care anyway from the government or hospital corporation..... just as they get free food and other free services for the poor.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    47. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to be under the delusion that everyone who makes enough money to be disqualified from food stamps and other such social services, also makes enough money to be able to afford any hospital bills that may come their way. I just wanted to say you are wrong. I know you're already set in your ways and will just ignore me, but I still wanted to say it.

    48. Re:one good result: by lessthan · · Score: 1

      Which is a government healthcare system...

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    49. Re:one good result: by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>You seem to be under the delusion that everyone who makes enough money to be disqualified from food stamps and other such social services, also makes enough money to be able to afford any hospital bills

      Strawman argument.
      I said no such thing.
      Obviously the cutoff for who should receive free hospital care would not be identical to the cutoff of who gets free food stamps. (Health insurance is about 2 times more costly than food.) Please don't put words into my mouth I never said.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    50. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strawman argument.

      I said no such thing.

      Yes you did. Here, let me point it out to you.

      And if they are too poor to payback the bill, well then they should have been getting free care anyway from the government or hospital corporation..... just as they get free food and other free services for the poor.

      Please don't put words into my mouth I never said.

      Please try taking an English class at your local CC. This isn't the first time you've replied trying to claim that you post said something different. You clearly lack the ability to effectively communicate using the language, and until you can admit that maybe you don't understand the language as well as you think you do, there's going to continue to be these misunderstandings.

    51. Re:one good result: by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      I said:
      >>>And if they are too poor to payback the bill, well then they should have been getting free care anyway from the government or hospital corporation..... just as they get free food and other free services for the poor.

      And somehow you twisted that into: "You seem to be under the delusion that everyone who makes enough money to be disqualified from food stamps and other such social services" should also be disqualified to get free hospital bills. I never said anything about the "disqualification level" being the identical for food stamps & free healthcare.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    52. Re:one good result: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does your browser strip out bold tags? Here, let me try _one_ _more_ _time_.

      And if they are too poor to payback the bill, well then they should have been getting free care anyway from the government or hospital corporation..... _just_ _as_ _they_ _get_ _free_ _food_ _and_ _other_ _free_ _services_ _for_ _the_ _poor_.

      Seriously, you fail English if you cannot figure out how that right there says the _exact_ _same_ _thing_ as "everyone who makes enough money to be disqualified from food stamps and other such social services, also makes enough money to be able to afford any hospital bills that may come their way". No twisting required. You just fail. And you will continue to fail until you are able to admit that you do not have as strong a grasp of English as you think you do.
       

      It appears I am being stalked by a registered user. (Replies to near-everything as Anon. Coward.)

      And enough with this "a single user is out to get me" bullshit. _Many_ people have grown wise to your bullshit. Though I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt if you'll just admit "oh, sorry, I didn't mean to say it like that. My English is not so good" or something like that.

  9. You know... by ilsaloving · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You know, it would be a lot easier to refute anti nuclear fears as being overly paranoid if we stopped giving them reasons to be just that. The situation would be have been under much better control and (slightly) less of a PR disaster if they would just stop with the lies.

    1. Re:You know... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      It's not nuclear power I fear, it's the idiot humans running the show I fear. Thus, my stance is not anti-science, but rather anti-human-managment.

      Complexity + RiskyStuff + Humans = BigFuckups

    2. Re:You know... by Lisias · · Score: 1

      Perhaps that Skynet thing would be not a bad idea, after all...

      --
      Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
    3. Re:You know... by ilsaloving · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, since it's not (yet) possible to build such these using robotic labour, that means we're screwed from the start. I agree. The technology is good. Pretty much every single screw-up that has happened has been due to a PEBKAC error.

  10. Health effects in children by symbolset · · Score: 5, Informative

    Thyroid cysts or nodules are being found in 36% of 38,000 Fukushima children. A 2001 study in Nagasaki found an incidence of 0%. Thyroid is associated with iodine, as the substance is essential to its function. Iodine-131 was a considerable component of the contaminants released in the incident.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:Health effects in children by Psion · · Score: 3, Interesting
      That same article states:

      "Yes, 35.8 percent of children in the study have lumps or cysts, but this is not the same as cancer," said Naomi Takagi, an associate professor at Fukushima University Medical School Hospital, which administered the tests.

      "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said. "This is an early test and we will only see the effects of radiation exposure after four or five years."

    2. Re:Health effects in children by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a load of BS.

      Maybe they should set up a summer camp to 35.8% of Nagasaki children (or just the children from who said/support this thought) very near the fukushima plant so later after 4 or 5 years they can confirm it.

      Tssk, the lack of morals/integrity to say this wasn't due to the effects of radiation is beyond insult.

    3. Re:Health effects in children by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Nice try trying to play that angle down by the professor there. I note she didn't seem to offer any alternative explanation.

      Virtually all the children living near Chernobyl had to have their thyroids removed. It is a known effect of getting radioactive iodine in the body, especially children's bodies. Fukushima put lots of iodine in the surrounding area. There is no other reasonable explanation.

      Apparently we underestimated the speed with which these cysts develop.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:Health effects in children by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Virtually all the children living near Chernobyl had to have their thyroids removed. It is a known effect of getting radioactive iodine in the body, especially children's bodies

      Source? I can't find any.

    5. Re:Health effects in children by sco08y · · Score: 0

      Nice try trying to play that angle down by the professor there.

      That's right! That whole "let's carefully assemble the evidence and come to a reasoned conclusion" is just a conspiracy to hide the TRUTH. We should all RUN IN CIRCLES AND SCREAM AND PANIC!

    6. Re:Health effects in children by Microlith · · Score: 1

      I note she didn't seem to offer any alternative explanation.

      She doesn't have to. It's only been ~1 year since the incident and it relates to the release of iodine, which not only decays extremely rapidly but was counteracted quickly with the distribution of iodine tablets. Not only that, thyroid exams aren't exactly common anywhere. I imagine you'd see interesting things if you did similar examinations in random locations around the US.

      Virtually all the children living near Chernobyl had to have their thyroids removed.

      Which was an event to which there is no real comparison.

      Fukushima put lots of iodine in the surrounding area.

      Mostly into the seawater.

      Apparently we underestimated the speed with which these cysts develop.

      And yet again you make an evidence-less claim that these cysts are a direct result of the events at Fukushima. Unless you have evidence of such please STFU. Otherwise, let's see what happens in ~5 years and see if what does happen rises above the background.

      Or we can panick like idiots (or, like AmiMoJo, but I repeat myself) and jump to unproductive conclusions and do things that may very well not need doing.

    7. Re:Health effects in children by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      That whole "let's carefully assemble the evidence and come to a reasoned conclusion" is just a conspiracy to hide the TRUTH

      If you didn't notice I did actually carefully assemble the evidence and come to a reasoned conclusion.

      This is the standard response to all medical conditions where there might be legal liability. Proving a direct causal link is very difficult, as people who got cancer from cigarettes or asbestos exposure discovered.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re:Health effects in children by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      At this point it time, there is no study that "proves" cigarette smoke causes cancer in humans. So we should lift all rules imposed assuming as much until a causal link is proven, not just the strong correlation and proof in non-human creatures. After all, without *proof* lets act like the opposite is true, regardless of the likelihoods of each.

    9. Re:Health effects in children by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Mostly into the seawater.

      And did they really stop eating all seafood at that point?

    10. Re:Health effects in children by symbolset · · Score: 1

      No, they're recently shipping seafood again.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    11. Re:Health effects in children by sco08y · · Score: 1

      At this point it time, there is no study that "proves" cigarette smoke causes cancer in humans. So we should lift all rules imposed assuming as much until a causal link is proven, not just the strong correlation and proof in non-human creatures. After all, without *proof* lets act like the opposite is true, regardless of the likelihoods of each.

      Sorry, no dice. For smoking, we took some years to run studies, and then passed laws based on those studies. That is "carefully assembling the evidence and coming to a reasoned conclusion."

    12. Re:Health effects in children by sco08y · · Score: 1

      That whole "let's carefully assemble the evidence and come to a reasoned conclusion" is just a conspiracy to hide the TRUTH

      If you didn't notice I did actually carefully assemble the evidence and come to a reasoned conclusion.

      This is the standard response to all medical conditions where there might be legal liability. Proving a direct causal link is very difficult, as people who got cancer from cigarettes or asbestos exposure discovered.

      Uh, no, you explicitly claimed that her desire to do studies for several years was just spin. You're demanding bullshit answers now, rather than waiting for science to be done, which is the standard alarmist position.

    13. Re:Health effects in children by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Please quite exactly where I said that in my original post. You can't, because I didn't.

      Unfortunately we can't wait years for more studies and data. We have to do something about it now based on the best evidence we have.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re:Health effects in children by Rakshasa-sensei · · Score: 2

      She doesn't have to. It's only been ~1 year since the incident and it relates to the release of iodine, which not only decays extremely rapidly but was counteracted quickly with the distribution of iodine tablets. Not only that, thyroid exams aren't exactly common anywhere. I imagine you'd see interesting things if you did similar examinations in random locations around the US.

      If there's an abnormal thyroid nodules and cysts that are not cancerous, one of the obvious first places to look is at the iodine tablets. It's not hard to imagine the parents being very diligent at administering those.

      So yeah, no need to panic just yet.

    15. Re:Health effects in children by khallow · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately we can't wait years for more studies and data. We have to do something about it now based on the best evidence we have.

      Oh look, standard bullshit alarmist position comes up again. There's an obvious explanation for this phenomena which doesn't involve nuclear plants, diet. Seems to me just a bit stupid to treat tens of thousands of children for radioactive iodine exposure when the issue probably is merely that they eat a lot of iodine rich seafood.

      And even if it were somehow due to radioactive iodine what's this "something" that you're going to do? It's going to be "Have your doctor look for thyroid problems (such as cancer) at each checkup."

    16. Re:Health effects in children by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Virtually all the children living near Chernobyl had to have their thyroids removed.

      CITATION NEEDED!!

      You are missing from your terrible poast that genetically, a large fraction of the population has "thyroid nodules". Like if you take a CT of a human, you'll find a bunch of "nodules" and "cysts" all over (especially in elderly), some quite large (eg.a 5 lb."nodule" in an elderly person). None of these things are cancers, just side effects of life.

      Same thing with thyroid nodules. 40% of a given population (eg. Ukrainians) can have benign thyroid nodules. Then if you go to a different population, like Norwegians, you'd have 60 or 70% of them having "thyroid nodules".

      What doctors are measuring in the Japanese are just your typical, genetic "nodules" of the thyroid. It is well known that thyroid cancers develop 7-years after exposure to Iodine (that's the mean age, there is a standard deviation to that too). It is well known that thyroid cancers from radioactive iodine expose are readily diagnosable as they grow quickly (you can't miss them easily), and they rarely metastasize. It is well known from Chernobyl, that thyroid cancers remained much lower than expected.

      Removing thyroids because of "thyroid nodules" is retarded. You'd have most of some populations without a thyroid! It would be as retarded as removing tonsils to prevent tonsillitis!!! Heck, it would be worse!

      PS. Remember the old days and people with goiters? A goiter is a mother-trucker-big thyroid nodule. Now we prevent that by adding a tiny bit of iodine to salt.

      Apparently we underestimated the speed with which these cysts develop.

      Yes, yes you did. They developed before the freaking plant was built!.

    17. Re:Health effects in children by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then the Nagasaki study is wrong.

      http://www.utmb.edu/otoref/Grnds/Thyroid-Nodule-2001-01/Thyroid%20Nodule-2002-01.htm

      One of the most widely cited epidemiologic studies involves the population study of Framingham, Massachusetts. In this study palpable thyroid nodules were found, in adults between 30 and 59 years of age, in 6.4 % of women and 1.5 % of men. Additionally, the nodule accrual rate was found to be 1.3% at 15 years, or an annual accrual rate of 0.09%. However, the prevalence is much higher when assessed by autopsy, palpation at surgery, or by ultrasound. Mazzaferri pooled a number of studies and found that the prevalence of nodules by these methods is approximately ten times that of the prevalence by physical exam17. One autopsy study noted nodules in 65% of men and 80% of women in the ninth decade.

      It is not possible to have 0 rate, unless the study was very very tiny or wants to claim that "Japanese are perfect". Every population has background "nodules". And if you give thyroids extra iodine (radioactive or not), or don't have enough iodine, you are going to affect the thyroid on a short time scale.

      So nice try, but 0% rate is bullshit.

      And if you bother reading the link, you'd find that the stupid belief that nodules == cancer is dropping.

      1950's approximately 70% of thyroid nodules in children represented cancer, whereas currently that number is closer to 20%

      And that is for nodules you can feel with your fingers (you know, large ones!), which highly correspond with cancers, not the "tiny ultrasound only visible nodule".

    18. Re:Health effects in children by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Not sure if you're counting this, but seaweed is grown in the sea, and bioconcentrates iodine. And it is popular in Japanese food.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    19. Re:Health effects in children by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Oh look, standard bullshit alarmist position comes up again. There's an obvious explanation for this phenomena which doesn't involve nuclear plants, diet. Seems to me just a bit stupid to treat tens of thousands of children for radioactive iodine exposure when the issue probably is merely that they eat a lot of iodine rich seafood.

      Children in other parts of Japan eat a lot of seafood and have not had this problem. And yes, they do check because of concerns about how far the fallout from Fukushima has spread.

      And even if it were somehow due to radioactive iodine what's this "something" that you're going to do? It's going to be "Have your doctor look for thyroid problems (such as cancer) at each checkup."

      Well that would seem like a good start, and in fact they are already being monitored closely. School children in the area carry dosimeters at all times. There are other practical steps that could be taken, such as decontaminating the area or changing diet to avoid contaminated food.

      My mother had thyroid cancer. Luckily they caught it early so it didn't spread. Seems like catching it early in these kids would be a good idea. Plus it allows the government to plan for the expected medical bills.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    20. Re:Health effects in children by khallow · · Score: 1

      Hmm, ok, I withdraw the thing about diet, especially in light of the possibility that Fukushima children don't have a high iodine diet.

      Instead, I'll just point out that the study hasn't been compared against a control group. A glance through the 2001 study indicates it didn't report nodules and perhaps cysts smaller than 5 mm in size.But all but a few percent of cysts in the Fukushima study are below that threshold. It may well be that cysts of that size are normally that prevalent in children. For larger cysts, prevalence was similar in both studies which doesn't really tell us anything one way or another.

      Further, it remains problematic for how children would ingest enough radioactive iodine to cause disease progression that fast. Remember there was both the matter of evacuation and iodine pills. Advocates of the scenario are left claiming that short term exposure in the early hours of the accident was higher than expected.

    21. Re:Health effects in children by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Interestingly I was just watching NHK World and they said that the latest report on Fukushima stated that the government lied about the amount of early exposure. Some children received a lifetime dose.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    22. Re:Health effects in children by khallow · · Score: 1

      Interestingly I was just watching NHK World and they said that the latest report on Fukushima stated that the government lied about the amount of early exposure. Some children received a lifetime dose.

      A frustrating part of this whole thing is the endless claims and reports. I obviously don't know who lied about what or was exposed to radiation. But it seems irresponsible to claim that children received lifetime doses when they were promptly treated for that particular danger (iodine pills, showering, etc) and evacuated. At best, you can say that they would have received a lifetime dose, if they were left untreated.

      This also goes back to Chernobyl. While supposedly more radioactive iodine and cesium was released at Fukushima than Chernobyl, this is countered by far shorter exposure times. So why are we seeing an apparently novel medical condition that wasn't seen in Chernobyl?

      Obviously, I'm heavily biased towards nuclear power. I grant I can be quite wrong about these things, but I really see a lot of problems with the allegations and claims that have been made.

  11. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Darkness404 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Um. No.

    Here's the nice thing about the free market. If you don't like something your employer tells you to do, you don't have to work for them. In fact, with a free enough society, you can tell others what your employer tried to tell you to do which will either:

    A) Cause the employer's customers not to support him and therefore he goes bust.

    B) Cause the employees to all quit their job or demand higher pay to work.

    C) Cause the employer to change his orders to prevent A or B from happening.

    Don't like being told to hide radiation exposure? Don't work for the guy!

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  12. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Teresita · · Score: 1

    Are you kidding? If the radiation detector reaches a certain level, that means the contractor has to kick that employee to the curb and hire a fresh one. You know how much that cuts into the profit margin?

  13. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by jfengel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And how are they supposed to do that? Individual workers calling their Senators up on the phone, each one of them telling the Senator something slightly different from the last one? Senators don't take phone calls from workers. They take phone calls from executives.

    Actually, they don't take phone calls from either. They take phone calls from lobbyists, people with whom they have a relationship and who have worked with them before. Corporate management has plenty of money to hire them. Individual workers don't.

    They can, however, get together and pool their money to hire a lobbyist. We should make up a name for such a unified group of people.

  14. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why we need more unions and more workers rights.

    and they should be able to use contractors and subcontractors to get out being liable.

    Actually, in the US, this kind of ridiculously dangerous behavior would be covered by OSHA laws.

  15. The authorities decided not to prosecute by cpu6502 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Government coverup. Just like they lied about how much radiation there really was. (Turns out they cut their readings by 1/3rd.) Or how the government claimed the air quality at the burning WTC wreckage was "safe" even though it wasn't. Governments don't protect the people; they lie, inveigle, and deny.

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    1. Re:The authorities decided not to prosecute by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      What's the alternative? The government can't say what would be best for the people: "Run!"

    2. Re:The authorities decided not to prosecute by lessthan · · Score: 1

      I also read an article in the July issue of Popular Science that says that right after the disaster, the Japanese government doubled the amount they listed as the "safe" amount of radiation per year.
      I would love it if we started switching to the micro nuke power plants, but how can we? The world governments' first reaction to a nuclear disaster is to lie and cover up.

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    3. Re:The authorities decided not to prosecute by Alt-kun · · Score: 1

      I also read an article in the July issue of Popular Science that says that right after the disaster, the Japanese government doubled the amount they listed as the "safe" amount of radiation per year.

      Only to match the international standard for emergency workers. Before the accident the mandated limits were much lower than the international norm.

      I see a lot of people implicitly conflating TEPCO and its subcontractors with the government. Both have demonstrated incompetence and dishonesty a-plenty, but this incident, like most of the really shady stuff going on, was on the TEPCO side (specifically one if its subcontractors).

    4. Re:The authorities decided not to prosecute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the lesson to learn from this incident.

      When the government says not to panic, that's when you quietly panic and make immediate plans to evacuate.
      You do not hunker down in a bunker. Instead, you run for the nearest airport.

    5. Re:The authorities decided not to prosecute by lessthan · · Score: 1

      Actually, there is no international standard. There are several international organizations that have recommended levels, but there is no true standard. The American NRC recommends no more than 5 rems per year whereas the new standard in Japan is 25 rems. This was done by the government, so your point about TEPCO is unrelated to what I was saying. Also, if the corporately-corrupt US government says that 5 rems is dangerous, what do you think the true danger level is?

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    6. Re:The authorities decided not to prosecute by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      The parent specified 'emergency workers', and The NRC allows a dose 5X the normal recommended max under 'exceptional circumstances' where restricting to the lower dose levels are impossible/impractical. But only once in a career.

      5 REM is actually extremely safe. Depending on the specific source of the radiation. Indeed 5 REM is for 'whole body', if the radiation hazard is skin or organ specific, the limit increases to 50, except for the lense of the eye, which is 15.

      These limits were established quite some time ago. Back in the '60s if I remember right. It's not some 'corporate' screw the worker level. Indeed, remember, they provide healthcare and if the limits caused too much it'd screw them financially.

      The 5 REM limit is to keep the increase in chance of cancer 'undetectable' over the course of a ~40 year career.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    7. Re:The authorities decided not to prosecute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wasn't much of a coverup if YOU of all people found out about it.

  16. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by tomhath · · Score: 1

    It sounds like that has already happened:

    Japan's health ministry said on Sunday it would investigate the reports, Reuters reported.

    Japanese law has set an annual radiation exposure safety threshold of 50 millisieverts for nuclear plant workers during normal operations.

    I don't see anything in the linked articles which indicates there has been a decision to not prosecute him though. FUD headline.

  17. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Last time I checked America was a continent. And I'm from Europe, don't assume we are only "americans".

  18. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

    Maybe if you weren't so brainwashed by union propaganda you could see past every situation being an opportunity to push more union laws. In Japan no less.

  19. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

    >>>And how are they supposed to do that? Individual workers calling their Senators up on the phone

    Sure why not.
    Also remind the Senator that he's up for relection, and you're inclined not to vote for him if he passes laws that screw you.

    >>>They can, however, get together and pool their money to hire a lobbyist. We should make up a name for such a unified group of people.

    I'd rather outlaw the existence of corporate speech; they can no longer hire lobbyists, else they lose their license to exist. Let the senators or congressmen talk to people one-as-one as individuals w/o a middleman. Stop my company from speaking for me, as if I automatically agree with the company's position just because I work here.

    --
    My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
  20. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by ohnocitizen · · Score: 1

    Japan and America, East and West, meet in one person: Joe Dragon. And he's a Slashdot regular!

  21. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now compare that one dude rallying others to a union. You get the same thing. Unions might be like maffia in corrupt USA as usual. But in everywhere else unions work the way you described except they actively negotiate and work for workers right constantly monitoring. You don't need to reinvent the wheel everytime a issue comes up, you already have the union/channel to work and be heard through.

  22. Doesn't work. by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Really. It doesn't. Globalism Breaks Capitalism. Period. It's that simple. You are completing on the global stage. Your employer is not. You can't win. You can't keep up. They will import desperate workers from impoverished countries. You will compete with them for food and shelter. Automation makes you disposable and obsolete. You can't work elsewhere, because there are very few jobs (automation) and there are lots of people to do those jobs (globalism).

    Free market Capitalism is fundamentally broken. Adam Smith wasn't a futurist. He had no vision. Ayn Rand was just a little woman afraid of a nasty dictator. Get over your fear, and learn to face facts. Adam couldn't, Ayn couldn't. Can you?

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    1. Re:Doesn't work. by rrohbeck · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many people have recognized this.
      And many intellectuals have come to recognize Karl Marx as what he was: A great economist.

    2. Re:Doesn't work. by Darkness404 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I can't keep up?

      What I believe you are forgetting is that humans aren't machinery. The right employees can make and break a company. Companies who believe that employees are disposable and you can find another usually don't stay in business for very long.

      And, no, I'm not talking about head CEOs or people with "vision" for the company but everyday, common, employees. If an employee adds no value compared to their cost, of course they will be replaced with someone who does, so the goal as an employee is not to do your "job" but add value to the product. If you add value, you will always have a job.

      Swap a group of English speaking cashiers making slightly above the minimum wage for a group of foreigners working for less who speak with a thick accent in any American shop and watch that shop go out of business.

      Why would that shop go out of business? Surely their costs were lowered, the foreigners had the same job description and could do the basics of the job well (scan items, make change, hand a receipt) but failed to really add any sort of value to the customer because they couldn't have conversations with them, they didn't know what certain customers wanted, etc.

      You can win when you view yourself in the right light. You aren't hired to do a "job" you are hired to add value.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    3. Re:Doesn't work. by geoskd · · Score: 4, Informative

      No where in all that did I see any hint of a better idea.

      The root of our economic problem (as you hinted at, but stopped short of actually saying), is that our economy depends on balance. That balance is the level of production and the level of consumption being about equal. When Production becomes too great, companies cut back. When consumption becomes too great, shortages drive up costs and cause a bubble (which will burst). The basic trouble is that technology constantly drives increases in production, and decreases in overall consumption. (Greater production at lower cost, pushes wealth to the top, but the consumers have less money to buy things, so consumption actually is reduced. There are only two forces on earth that combat this trend, and restore balance to the economy, and one or both will result. The first is taxes. The best known way to get the wealth back from the top, and restore the consumption power it has, is to return it to the bottom by the way of social programs (health care, disability, welfare). The second way is revolution. With not enough taxes on the wealthy to counteract the concentrating effects of innovation, the concentration of wealth at the top unbalances the economy, causing rapid economic swings, volatile prices, and unemployment. If the process continues unchecked, the only logical result is revolution, and it is invariable, and inevitable.

      -=Geoskd

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    4. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Have to step in to defend Adam Smith here. He actually did see the problems that inevitably come with employers having more power than workers, and (as he did with everything) went on at some length about it. If half the people wearing Adam Smith ties had actually read The Wealth of Nations, they'd call him a commie.

    5. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a sad, ignorant person. Look, there are definitely market failures that exist, and yes, there are instances where government needs to step in and fix those market failures.

      But to say that capitalism doesn't work? And you bring up one of the greatest success stories of free markets (globalization)? Yes, it does certainly suck for unskilled workers in the developed world that they are now competing with poor people in China or Malaysia. But you know what? That poor person is extremely thankful that they have a chance to raise their standard of living.

      You do realize that globalization has, over the past two decades, lifted nearly two billion people out of absolute, miserable destitute poverty and into more mild poverty, or even into decent living standards?

      You are incredibly selfish to want to keep these billions of people out of the global marketplace for the aid of those living in already developed economies. It's easy to forget that making 26,000 euro a year means you're (nominally) in the wealthiest 5% of the population in the world.

    6. Re:Doesn't work. by fustakrakich · · Score: 1, Informative

      Free market Capitalism is fundamentally broken.

      Nonsense. Free market Capitalism doesn't exist. Everything is tightly regulated. The entire planet is under various systems of state* run 'capitalism'. Globalism (as defined here) is just the attempt to put it all under one state. Only in contraband will you find anything approaching free market capitalism where all participants have an equal chance at becoming rich and powerful.

      *state=corporation

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    7. Re:Doesn't work. by GoodNewsJimDotCom · · Score: 1

      Adam smith never envisioned the invisible hand to get the invisible finger.

    8. Re:Doesn't work. by sjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's worth noting that Smith strongly advocated market regulation. He warned that inadequate or incompetent regulation of the market would lead to exactly the sorts of problems we're having now. He further warned against anything like corporate personhood as that would remove moral thinking from economic decisions.

      The so-called proponents of Smith's Capitalism are VERY selective about which parts they implement and 100% of his warnings have fallen on deaf ears. They are just as bad as the fundamentalist Jihadists who like to skip over all the bits about not killing 'people of the book'.

    9. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but that isn't really a thing.

    10. Re:Doesn't work. by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Shhhhhhh! He doesn't know that. It's funny when they're bred to attack the very thing that might help them.

      Probably thinks that NAFTA is about free trade too.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    11. Re:Doesn't work. by gdy · · Score: 1

      It works very well from the standpoint of desperate workers from impoverished countries.

    12. Re:Doesn't work. by mwvdlee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. On the contrary. You need a government to tell COMPANIES what they can and cannot do.

      Governments are supposed to represent the citizens, therefore they should do whatever best helps their citizens.

      If that means companies have to comply to all kinds of rules and regulations then I see no problem in that. Companies wouldn't mind either, because they are not living things. Managers and shareholders might not like it, but they're citizens like everybody else, and their well-being is no less of more important than that of anybody else.

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    13. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Swap a group of English speaking cashiers making slightly above the minimum wage for a group of foreigners working for less who speak with a thick accent in any American shop and watch that shop go out of business.

      Why would that shop go out of business? Surely their costs were lowered, the foreigners had the same job description and could do the basics of the job well (scan items, make change, hand a receipt) but failed to really add any sort of value to the customer because they couldn't have conversations with them, they didn't know what certain customers wanted, etc.

      >>insert anecdotes about convenience stores and taxi drivers.

    14. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want the freedom to choose for myself. Diversity is of utmost importance. It would be nice for all the people who want one way of life (say, communism) to go to their respective place and live that way.

      I'll take the place that the government stays (mostly) out of my hair. My hard work is taxed at the same rate as the sloth who works to get by. I can live life the way I choose, without hurting anyone else in the process.

      One set of global rules is going to cause an amazing amount of chaos and backlash. People don't all value the same things, and that is one of the strengths of the human race.

    15. Re:Doesn't work. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      You can't keep up. They will import desperate workers from impoverished countries.

      This isnt "the worker losing", its "impoverished people getting job opportunities." Now, justify to me why Raj in India DOESNT deserve your job if he's poor as dirt and is willing to work harder for less than you?

      Or is this "I want to defend workers rights, as long as the worker is me"?

    16. Re:Doesn't work. by Darkness404 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If we are to have a government, it only has 2 legitimate roles:

      A) Protect its citizens from force (foreign attack, murder, theft, etc.)

      B) Protect its citizens from fraud (misrepresentation, civil court system, etc.)

      In a free market, companies have a single goal:

      Make a profit.

      How do they do that? By having people pay for services/goods. Why do they pay for goods and services? Because they improve people's quality of living. If they did not, they wouldn't be bought and the company would go out of business.

      If government exists (as opposed to replacing the traditional functions of government with the free market), a government that only regulates force and fraud is the only way to ensure the highest possible quality of life for those who live under the jurisdiction of that government.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    17. Re:Doesn't work. by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      In that case, everything's a free market. Simply run by the most powerful. It doesn't matter if you call it 'public' or 'private'. Power is power.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    18. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fucking lunatic.

    19. Re:Doesn't work. by rsilvergun · · Score: 0

      Raj never should have been born. Poor people have the right to live. They do not have the right to breed. You lose that right by poverty. That doesn't just go for Raj, it goes for Cletus the slack jawed yokel too. We don't let cats and dogs breed out of control, so I see no reason to let humans do so. Libertarians agree that your rights end when they infringe on my. There is no greater infringement then having an unwanted child you can't provide for. The impact to society is far greater than any single act you can commit.

      --
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    20. Re:Doesn't work. by platypusfriend · · Score: 1

      Your answer is very utilitarian. What's going to be the penalty for breaking the rules and having an unauthorized child? What about two unauthorized children, or three? Speaking of utilitarian thought, here's the abstract from a recent paper on the subject (the full version is paywalled, here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027711001351) ---> "Researchers have recently argued that utilitarianism is the appropriate framework by which to evaluate moral judgment, and that individuals who endorse non-utilitarian solutions to moral dilemmas (involving active vs. passive harm) are committing an error. We report a study in which participants responded to a battery of personality assessments and a set of dilemmas that pit utilitarian and non-utilitarian options against each other. Participants who indicated greater endorsement of utilitarian solutions had higher scores on measures of Psychopathy, machiavellianism, and life meaninglessness. These results question the widely-used methods by which lay moral judgments are evaluated, as these approaches lead to the counterintuitive conclusion that those individuals who are least prone to moral errors also possess a set of psychological characteristics that many would consider prototypically immoral."

    21. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No proper response to this post. If it is any consolation:
      Yours is Best Post

      Too bad most sheep lack vision.

    22. Re:Doesn't work. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      Raj deserves the job, but I also deserve to be able to buy all goods I need for myself at the same prices Raj does. Only then we are on equal footing with corporations.

      But if a corporation can outsource labor to Raj, paying him pennies, but then sell the products to me for First World prices, and pocket the difference? That's fucked up for both me and Raj, and it's not really a free market, either. And that's what globalization is in practice today.

    23. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like you have a problem with the impoverished improving themselves. Sounds like you want the rich to get richer and the poor to (at least) stay poor, if not, get poorer.

      Why do I say that? You seem very scared of someone from an impoverished world getting a chance at your gravy job. That means you're rich, they're not, and the world be damned if you're going to share.

      Did I get it right?

    24. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just love how both sides of the argument call themselves the intellectuals in posession of the facts and sole users of logic, while at the same time throwing baseless personal opinions prefixed with "we all know that ...", "everyone recognizes that ...", "It's very simple" BS. The word "fact" is so abused today that I am having difficulty taking anyone who invokes it seriously.

      In your rage you're forgetting, among many other things, that when poor countries get outsourced jobs, they become less so. Their standard of living rises. It can rise until it's no longer feasible to outsource to them. Eventually there are no feasible place to outsource to and the jobs come back. This is already happening to some extent in US. Many poor countries' development is accelerated by outsourcing. In the end, we all live on this planet, if you want to talk about "fair", isn't it the unfairest thing of all that some live in abject poverty while you preach about how they should be kept in the mud so you can enjoy the benefits of being born in a nicer part of the planet ?

    25. Re:Doesn't work. by fnj · · Score: 2

      Free market Capitalism is fundamentally broken.

      Nonsense. Free market Capitalism doesn't exist. Everything is tightly regulated.

      With all due respect, you ought to get your story straight. If it IS fundamentally broken, it's because of its own built-in failings, not because it is being distorted by government. That's pretty much by the definition of the terms of the argument. Otherwise, there is a problem with logic.

      If, on the other hand, it is NOT fundamentally broken, then you have to explain why it is not practiced in pure form in a single place in the entire world. Good luck with THAT.

      Claiming that the black market is a system in which everyone participating has an equal chance of cleaning up and becoming filthy rich (which incidentally means impoverishing others) is clearly mistaken. Raw, naked power and initial backing and resources rule [at LEAST] just as much in the black market as they do in the cozy corporate government corruptocracy we "enjoy" currently in the U.S., and China "enjoys" in slightly different form. At least the Chinese form is economically functional and actually seeks to better the condition of the people.

      I think some of the confusion here lies in the presumed conjunction of equivalencies and oppositions. [Real] socialism is not the opposite of capitalism; rather they are both variations of the same idea: dictation. Capitalism is absolutely not the same as free market. Capitalism confers privilege on those who own capital, and sees to it that the capital and its conferred privilege stays largely in the hands of the same class over time. A true free market strongly implies equal opportunity. But neither one has anything whatever to do with reward in proportion to sweat.

      Now, what the democratic socialists in Europe seek to do is leverage both socialism and capitalism, carefully moderating the excesses of both by allowing neither one free rein. I think the jury is still out on whether that approach could possibly work.

      What capitalism and socialism are both in direct opposition to, is distributism. Look up the term some time. You might find something that appeals to you. I know I did.

      The problem with all of these "isms" is that none of them deal with the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem is that the natural devolution of all human interactions on a large scale is corruption. For that, there is no magic insightful solution.

    26. Re:Doesn't work. by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      corruption

      That's what makes discussion of all the "isms" nothing more than mental masturbation, no matter how nice they might sound. That's why I don't bother with them. Waste of time. There can be no higher learning if the fundamentals aren't recognized and dealt with.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    27. Re:Doesn't work. by Shifty0x88 · · Score: 2

      In a free market, companies have a single goal: Make a profit. How do they do that?

      By exploiting their customers and making their workers work for less pay and longer hours. Without unions a factory owner has no incentive to pay his or her employees more then what they are getting. And since they are factory workers, they cannot do their job "better", or have "better skills", they simply take Item A and put it in Machine B and then push Button C and throw it in Pile D.

      Greed is why we need unions, because as my parent pointed out: companies have 1 goal: make a profit

    28. Re:Doesn't work. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Raj never should have been born. Poor people have the right to live. They do not have the right to breed. You lose that right by poverty

      Not sure if troll, or feels REALLY entitled to lifestyle.

      Just because you have money and your parents had money does not make you a more important person on the job market than someone who just happened to be born in India.

      This is an issue that is close to home for me, since I have many friends here from over seas, one from India. The fact that I was born here doesnt somehow give me more entitlement to the job market than him, and Ive never been super comfortable in the idea of trying to restrict US jobs to americans-- I thought we wanted a free market to give opportunities to all? Why not "all" when it encompasses more than just our chunk of land?

    29. Re:Doesn't work. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Raj deserves the job, but I also deserve to be able to buy all goods I need for myself at the same prices Raj does.

      No, you deserve to pay what your market will support. When you live on $1 a month, you can start asking to pay Raj's prices; until then its a bit rich that folks in the US complain about jobs while tweeting on their multi-hundred dollar computers and iphones while folks overseas simply want a job sufficient to feed their family.

      The self-centeredness of people never ceases to amaze me.

    30. Re:Doesn't work. by phantomfive · · Score: 0

      And many intellectuals have come to recognize Karl Marx as what he was: A great economist.

      You gave me my laugh for the day.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    31. Re:Doesn't work. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I'm not asking for my local market to sell me goods at those prices. I'm asking to be given full access to markets in other countries so that I can freely shop around for goods, just as corporations shop around for labor.

      Are you saying that it's morally right for the governments of the world to let corporations shop around, but to impose restrictions on their citizens when they do the same?

    32. Re:Doesn't work. by AK+Marc · · Score: 3

      Companies maximize profit through fraud. Convince people their inferior widget is better, and they make more, even if the widget is provably inferior. So the corporations interests are directly at odds with the government's. The government should be pushing for labeling laws and such, while the corporations are opposing them. Corporations don't care about quality of life, they care about profit, and getting someone addicted to alcohol or caffeine (and keeping safer alternatives, like marijuana, illegal) is better for the corporation, even if worse for the people and the government.

    33. Re:Doesn't work. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Free market Capitalism is fundamentally broken.

      Free market Capitalism doesn't exist.

      Whether it exists is irrelevant to the question of whether it's broken. We don't have it, for the reasons you mention. If we did, it would be broken worse than what we have now.

      Only in contraband will you find anything approaching free market capitalism where all participants have an equal chance at becoming rich and powerful.

      Again, assuming you are 100% correct, it seems the point you are making is the opposite of what you are trying to make. Drug dealing is free market capitalism, and is a lawless wasteland of violence and crime. That's not too far off what free market capitalism is, just for *everything* (yes, your milk gang will go to competing customers and poison them to encouraging switching to your brand). Do you really want that for *all* products?

    34. Re:Doesn't work. by The+Raven · · Score: 2

      This outlook is common, and unfortunately it is fundamentally bigoted.

      "I am deserving of this job, but that brown skinned person is not! He's willing to work for less than me, and live in worse conditions than me, therefor I'm a better person. Having to compete with people who demand less sucks."

      It does suck, but globalization fundamentally equalizes things. You forget that you live on 30-50K a year, while billions of people live on under $5000 a year. If some of those people currently living in such horrible conditions are able to learn enough despite the hardships of their lives in order to compete on an equal footing with you, who grew up with better access to education, sanitation, and protection than they could ever hope for, that's something to praise, not belittle.

      Yes, it sucks for you, and for me, that we have to compete with people who have far lower standards than us. But get off your fucking high horse. The absolute best and most effective foreign aid that is possible for people in impoverished countries is the ability to work, and better themselves, and send some of that money home to their family. There is almost no corruption on foreign aid that comes in the form of a check from your son working stateside. It reaches the people who need it most, directly, with no graft.

      Personally, I think we should end all foreign aid immediately, and also open our borders up the way they used to be. We are the land of plenty indeed, despite that it doesn't seem that way sometimes... but that's only because we have so much, we can't even imagine those who have so little.

      --
      "I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
    35. Re:Doesn't work. by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      >>>A) Protect its citizens from force (foreign attack, murder, theft, etc.)
      >>> B) Protect its citizens from fraud (misrepresentation, civil court system, etc.)

      If A and B is all the government does, then that means no more corporations in the USA, since the government would not be issuing incorporation licenses. That sounds like a good plan to me.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    36. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with all of these "isms" is that none of them deal with the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem is that the natural devolution of all human interactions on a large scale is corruption. For that, there is no magic insightful solution.

      I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority, in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major... excuse me, there's some sort of monarchist ordering me to be quiet...

    37. Re:Doesn't work. by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Heh. True. Heck, I describe myself as a 'moderate libertarian' because of the 'major' parties(known to exist by at least double digits of the US population), it comes closest. Note that I don't fit my views to it; it simply comes closest. Despite this, I've been described elsewhere as 'more of a practical minarchist', meaning that I'm always looking for the least expensive/intrusive way to get things done.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    38. Re:Doesn't work. by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      It's worth noting that Smith strongly advocated market regulation. He warned that inadequate or incompetent regulation of the market would lead to exactly the sorts of problems we're having now. He further warned against anything like corporate personhood as that would remove moral thinking from economic decisions.

      Any pointers where to find the respective quotes? Not that I doubt what you said, not at all, it's just I'm a quote geek and yeah, I kinda need (to find) those :) Any help would be greatly appreciated, I can't simply "read Smith" in toto atm.

    39. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The countries you cite aren't (weren't) Marxists, even though they do (did) have red in their flags. Whether you agree with Marx's proposed solution or not is moot, his criticisms of Capitalism are independent from Marxism; rejecting all his work just because you disagree with some of it would be like rejecting Relativity because you read a quote of Einstein saying Quantum Mechanics is crap.

      Capitalism worked well for very few countries, but it failed miserably everywhere else. But surely we're better off never trying anything even slightly different, a monoculture always works best, right?

    40. Re:Doesn't work. by Zeroedout · · Score: 1

      heh, you think The Wealth of Nations is bad? Try The Theory of Moral Sentiments.

    41. Re:Doesn't work. by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Any pointers where to find the respective quotes?

      I highly doubt you'll get them. It's easier to make these claims than to back them up with actual quotes.

    42. Re:Doesn't work. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      No, Im not.

      Im not an economist and reserve the right to revise my views on this..... but...
      currently, Im not a huge fan of any of those market barriers. You want a job? Compete on the global market. You want to sell a product? Fine, and you can even choose to not sell it in certain countries-- just dont expect anyone to enforce that restriction.

    43. Re:Doesn't work. by sjames · · Score: 1

      You might try reading "The Wealth of Nations" (you know, something Smith actually wrote).

      Johann Lau posted a good link to it online. Page 393 is a good start.

    44. Re:Doesn't work. by sjames · · Score: 1

      Wow, really? I guess it's easier to snipe than it is to actually look it up.Try "The Wealth of Nations". Unles you have read it, you're really not knowledgable enough about what Smith had to say to be sniping at people who have read it.

    45. Re:Doesn't work. by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      To be honest, it was simply the first link I knew for a fact to be of Smith. I since found a much more readable pdf version, it also allows copy and paste which is always a plus: http://metalibri.wikidot.com/title:an-inquiry-into-the-nature-and-causes-of-the-wealth-of

      Thanks for, well, making me curious to finally dig to the bottom of this :P I often heard Noam Chomsky say what you said, but I never bothered to find out, I just (as it turns out, rightfully) trusted it's true.

    46. Re:Doesn't work. by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      Oops, I spoke too soon.. it *doesn*t support copy and paste.

      Bleh! It's still easier to read than the first one I linked :)

    47. Re:Doesn't work. by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Instead of referring to a book that is several hundred pages long, you could actually provide quotes that back up what you say. Anybody can make specious claims and then point to a tome. As you are the one making claims, the onus is on you to back them up.

    48. Re:Doesn't work. by Raenex · · Score: 1

      So now that you've taken over the task of the original poster, I point out that what you quote is in support of preventing the private circulation of paper money:

      "Where paper money, it is to be observed, is pretty much confined to the circulation between dealers and dealers, as at London, there is always plenty of gold and silver. Where it extends itself to a considerable part of the circulation between dealers and consumers, as in Scotland, and still more in North America, it banishes gold and silver almost entirely from the country; almost all the ordinary transactions of its interior commerce being thus carried on by paper. [..] To restrain private people, it may be said, from receiving in payment the promissory notes of a banker [violates liberty for the common good.]"

      Other than allowing that Smith was for some regulation, especially in regards to paper money, that doesn't support what the original poster said, and for which you asked for quotes:

      It's worth noting that Smith strongly advocated market regulation. He warned that inadequate or incompetent regulation of the market would lead to exactly the sorts of problems we're having now. He further warned against anything like corporate personhood as that would remove moral thinking from economic decisions.

      Smith warned against government interference in the market:

      "But the policy of Europe, by not leaving things at perfect liberty, occasions other inequalities of much greater importance.

      It does this chiefly in the three following ways. First, by restraining the competition in some employments to a smaller number than would otherwise be disposed to enter into them; secondly, by increasing it in others beyond what it naturally would be; and, thirdly, by obstructing the free circulation of labour and stock, both from employment to employment, and from place to place."

      Also, if you want to copy and paste, there's an HTML version on Project Gutenberg/ebooks/3300

    49. Re:Doesn't work. by sjames · · Score: 1

      You're not a baby in a highchair, I have no intention of spoon-feeding you, especially if you insist on turning your head away every time a spoon approaches.

      Are you saying that reading ONE LOUSY PAGE from an online link is just too exhausting for you?

      Now, go read that page. Open the hanger! Here comes the Airplane!

    50. Re:Doesn't work. by sjames · · Score: 1

      In return, I appreciate that you diid actually look it up. I wish more people would do that.

    51. Re:Doesn't work. by Raenex · · Score: 1

      You're not a baby in a highchair, I have no intention of spoon-feeding you, especially if you insist on turning your head away every time a spoon approaches.

      Oh really? So I can just claim that Wealth of Nations says exactly the opposite of what you said, and point you to the tome as reference?

      Are you saying that reading ONE LOUSY PAGE from an online link is just too exhausting for you?

      I did, and have already responded, though no thanks to you, obviously, since you provided no quotes, nor a single page. You left that for somebody else.

    52. Re:Doesn't work. by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 1

      Yes, but big corporations have effectively bought themselves personhood... and since these new citizens have oh so much money to throw around, they get whatever government they paid for and we, the little folk, get screwed.

      --

      The Digital Sorceress
    53. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The highest possible for the wealthy/powerful minority. Any other conclusions completely ignores human nature and history.

    54. Re:Doesn't work. by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      I was unaware of any laws of nature that forces a government to be of the kind you describe.

      Realistically, the people who created a government are the people who determine what their government can and cannot do. Whether that government is supposed to work according to Bastiat (as you seem to imply), Marx and any other model is entirely upto the people to decide. There is no implicit right or wrong way for a government to work.

      Companies are not independent entities, but exist to serve groups of people (i.e., it's owners and employees). These people may have interrests that are best served by laws (or lack thereof) dealing with their company, but in the end these people are no more or less imporant than people in other groups (be it companies or otherwise).

      "Free market" is not a given, it's a choice made by people through it's government. If the majority of people vote against a free market, a democratic government should listen and act accordingly. If the majority wants a free market, then a free market it should remain.

      --
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    55. Re:Doesn't work. by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      As has been said before: "I'll believe in corporate personhood when one of them is executed in Texas."

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    56. Re:Doesn't work. by tempmpi · · Score: 1

      You are forgetting something really important here:

      In a free market with a lot of competion companies will only make small to no profits. For that reason the most efficient way of making profit is stop competion. The goverment also needs to take care that there is a working free market with a lot of competion.

      --
      Jan
    57. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a fool.

    58. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bingo. Mod up.

    59. Re:Doesn't work. by khallow · · Score: 2

      Really. It doesn't. Globalism Breaks Capitalism. Period. It's that simple. You are completing on the global stage. Your employer is not. You can't win. You can't keep up. They will import desperate workers from impoverished countries. You will compete with them for food and shelter. Automation makes you disposable and obsolete. You can't work elsewhere, because there are very few jobs (automation) and there are lots of people to do those jobs (globalism).

      Well, I have to disagree. The problem isn't that developed world workers are competing on the global stage, but that they aren't competing. I can't speak for the obstacles that hinder employment in other countries, but the US has imposed substantial barriers to employing US citizens.

      For example, Social Security increases the cost of US labor by about 15%. That's about a tenth of the difference in cost between a US worker and a Chinese worker of similar skills. Similar losses come from how the US does health care and education. There are substantial barriers to employing people which get increased when one gets to 50 employees. I gather other countries have similar barriers.

      My view is that globalism/capitalism is getting blamed unfairly. Your labor simply isn't worth what it used to be yet you still want all those nice benefits. My view is that developed world workers would become a lot more attractive, if they took a few collective sacrifices, particularly reducing or eliminating the public pensions that everyone seems to have picked up to some degree.

      Free market Capitalism is fundamentally broken.

      "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."

      Get over your fear, and learn to face facts.

      I have, will you?

      It's worth noting also that global labor isn't a bottomless well. There's only seven billion people out there. Wages will rise collectively.

      Even in the case where developed world labor continues to piddle around, there's a good chance in a century or two that current developed world labor will be the low end labor of the future, due to passable infrastructure, no wage gains or increases in living costs for a century, and other default actions that don't get us anywhere, but at least maintain our current capabilities.

    60. Re:Doesn't work. by khallow · · Score: 1

      He further warned against anything like corporate personhood as that would remove moral thinking from economic decisions.

      I strongly doubt it since corporate personhood doesn't remove moral thinking from economic decisions (it exists in fact, due to such moral thinking) and he probably would be astute enough to see that.

    61. Re:Doesn't work. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Governments are supposed to represent the citizens, therefore they should do whatever best helps their citizens.

      If that means companies have to comply to all kinds of rules and regulations then I see no problem in that.

      How about if that means less rules and regulations than current? You still see no problem in that?

    62. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many people have recognized this.
      And many intellectuals have come to recognize Karl Marx as what he was: A great economist.

      The "field" of economics did not exist in the time of Adam Smith and Karl Marx. Modern economics is not
      a science it is an ideology of the ruling class that it uses to justify its existence and social/economic privledge
      and power. Karl Marx was a pioneer in the science of Political Economy. Most of what he thought about the
      development of the Bourgois dictatorship and capitalism has come true.

    63. Re:Doesn't work. by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      Nope. No problem at all if that were the case.

      I'm just assuming that human, being egocentric by nature, require rules and regulations to get along. Powerful associations of humans (for example; companies) probably more so.

      The only thing that matters is that government does what is best and fair to it's citizens. This means all humans and and only humans.
      What exactly is best and fair is upto the citizens to decide. Again, "citizens" meaning all humans and only humans.

      --
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    64. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Minus corporate personhood, the guy at the top making the decisions is responsible for the actions of the company, and can be held responsible for them. With corporate personhood, the guy at the top making the decisions is responsible for the actions of the company, but cannot be held responsible for them, except in extraordinary circumstances.

      Which one of the following removes moral thinking from the equation?
      1) I'm going to be held responsible for the consequences of my actions.
      2) I'm *not* going to be held responsible for the consequences of my actions.

    65. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and I live in a country where $5000/year wouldn't pay for bread and water, much less clothing and shelter. That guy in the other country can afford a house, 3 good meals a day, clothing, the rest of his necessities, and have some cash left over on that same $5000.

      Unless I *can* live on that lower rate, saying 'well, you should just compete with' the guy who can, is disingenuous at best.

    66. Re:Doesn't work. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Really? Minus corporate personhood, the guy at the top making the decisions is responsible for the actions of the company

      No, there's no such change in responsibility. He is just as responsible as before. The same excuses for evading responsibility (such as I didn't know what a few out of control employees were doing) work just as well as before.

      It's really annoying to deal with people who don't even have an inkling what corporate personhood or why it exists, much less having to deal with these completely wrong myths as well. I suggest you read up on the subject before continuing.

    67. Re:Doesn't work. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Again, "citizens" meaning all humans and only humans.

      What's with the bizarre bigotry? I imagine in a century we'll going have a number of non-humans worthy of citizenship.

      I'm just assuming that human, being egocentric by nature, require rules and regulations to get along. Powerful associations of humans (for example; companies) probably more so.

      That's fine, as long as you understand that needing rules and regulations doesn't automatically imply that we need more rules and regulations than what we already have.

      My view is that a big part of the problem is simply that there's a part of society just adding rules and regulations without thought for the consequences. For example, I believe that many industries would simply cease to exist (and in some cases, actually have done so), if the regulations that governed them were fully enforced. And every regulation requires a regulatory, who then isn't doing something productive.

      Finally, who can navigate such a dense thicket of rules and regulations, bribing the right regulators to stay in business and such? Well, that's a natural selection for large businesses over small and corrupt businesses over more ethical ones.

    68. Re:Doesn't work. by sjames · · Score: 1

      Why in the hell would I bother posting a me too? The other poster's reference was perfectly good. You see, he actually got off of his ass (mataphorically at least) and found out what I was talking about.

      I see from your reply that you couldn't be bothered to read the entire page to the end, so Alas, it seems you have strained peas in your ear.

    69. Re:Doesn't work. by sjames · · Score: 1

      Start here, work outward.

    70. Re:Doesn't work. by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Why in the hell would I bother posting a me too?

      My point was the original onus was yours, and still is since you are still on the field and your proxy has come up short.

      I see from your reply that you couldn't be bothered to read the entire page to the end, so Alas, it seems you have strained peas in your ear.

      I see that here, again, you refuse to provide a direct quotation or make a direct argument, referring instead to the end of the page.

      That itself is pretty fucking stupid anyways, as I directly quoted from that page which gave the context, and then paraphrased the last part to shorten the quote and which was also originally quoted by the person who actually tried to provide some direct evidence. It's obvious I have read it and responded to it intelligently, while you are building up and knocking down strawmen.

      Furthermore, I provided a direct quote which negated your original assertion that "Smith strongly advocated market regulation". Again, no response to this direct quote and challenge to your statement.

    71. Re:Doesn't work. by sjames · · Score: 1

      Wow. Given your attitude, I'm becoming convinced there is no hope for your education. At this point, the onus is on YOU tio actually read the reference provided. If you cannot manage that, I don't see why a direct quote would help. If you won't read it in the provided link, why should I expect you to read it in my post.

      Don't bother replying until you have read the entire page from top to bottom. Hint, there's a funny twist to the plot near the bottom.

    72. Re:Doesn't work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unlike most other posters on this site, I do enjoy a bit of narcissism at the end of all my posts.

      -=Geoskd

    73. Re:Doesn't work. by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      You don't necessarily need MORE rules. In fact many of the rules and regulations for businesses are loopholes and exceptions for (very) specific branches or companies.

      As an extreme example; imagine you'd tax all companies a fixed rate nationwide. No exceptions, no ifs, buts, or whatifs.
      Whether you'd agree to such a rule or not (you'd probably want exceptions to help start-ups and such); it cannot be denied that it is far LESS rules than currently exist and greatly reduces the ability to cheat.

      At the same time you might also want to restrict what businesses can and cannot do with additional rules. The idea is that neither you nor I get to decide. And neither should any lobby groups or other associations of people. Only the whole of the people (for practical purposes through their elected representatives) should decide. That is the sole basis on which government should be allowed to exist.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    74. Re:Doesn't work. by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Hint: Ignoring the content of my posts, including arguments with quotes from the page I supposedly haven't read, doesn't bolster your argument. It merely shows you have no argument and are huffing and puffing instead.

      The onus is on you to quote what I supposedly have missed. You can't, because I've already addressed it in my response. As soon as you specify exactly what I missed, it will be easy to show otherwise.

  23. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by ohnocitizen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unions can curb criminal behavior on the part of corporations. Of course, unions being organized power, are also susceptible to being abused as well. Arguing against having any watchmen at all is a bit silly, but we need to also consider who watches the watchmen.

  24. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by rubycodez · · Score: 2

    Japan already has both.

    What they also have, same as the USA, is government in the pockets of large corporations.

  25. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by mwlewis · · Score: 1

    Why would anyone think that the workers agree with whatever the company says? That makes no sense. Now, if the company is saying something that the owners don't agree with, then there's a problem.

    --
    JOIN US FOR PONG!
  26. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by geoskd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unions can curb criminal behavior on the part of corporations. Of course, unions being organized power, are also susceptible to being abused as well. Arguing against having any watchmen at all is a bit silly, but we need to also consider who watches the watchmen.

    The answer is not more levels of middlemen, who contribute nothing but another avenue for corruption. The answer, as suggested by others here, is support for workers rights codified by law. The fact that our current democratic process has been thoroughly subverted by the top 1% doesn't mean that adding more corrupt bureaucrats to the process is a good idea, much less the right solution.

    -=Geoskd

    --
    I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
  27. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by artor3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is why we need more unions and more workers rights.

    and they should be able to use contractors and subcontractors to get out being liable.

    Actually, in the US, this kind of ridiculously dangerous behavior would be covered by OSHA laws.

    OSHA laws which only exist thanks to unions.

  28. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want to change workers rights do it for everyone, not just people in your little club. Unions should be illegal in a modern society of law and order. There should not be a subset of people exerting more force then a random group of equivalent private citizens.

  29. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 2

    Illegal pooling of power? I guess you can make anything illegal, but from say a Rothbardian natural rights point of view (I'm guessing you're a libertarian) there is absolutely nothing wrong with banding together in contract negotiations (unless there are pre-existing contractual promises not to do so). Nor even stipulating in those negotiations that all employees have to be union ...

    Now of course a lot of current employment law is not exactly Rothbardian, but that's an orthogonal issue.

  30. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I really have no problems with unions the abstract, but in practice I cannot support them due to the laws in the US. If workers are striking, the employer absolutely has the right to fire them. Just as every employee is different, so should their contract. Collective bargaining is an absolutely silly way to conduct business. Even though Joe, Bob and Frank all have the same job and the same experience, they each have their own wants, needs and ability levels. If Joe is much better than Bob and Frank at his job, Joe should get paid more. If Frank is a single young guy, having dental insurance is probably low on his priority list compared to Joe and Bob who both have growing families. Etc.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  31. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How is it a FUD headline? The entire article is about what the headline says.

  32. Moral Credibility by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In order to safely operate today's generation of nuclear fission reactors, you need the operators and regulators to be transparent and competent. The folks running this Fukushima travesty are neither transparent nor competent.

    Therefore I am forced to conclude that the human race in 2012 does not have the moral credibility to be trusted to operate nuclear fission reactors.

    1. Re:Moral Credibility by maestroX · · Score: 1

      agreed.

    2. Re:Moral Credibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed

    3. Re:Moral Credibility by Threni · · Score: 0

      Talking of hiding stuff, anyone read this:

      http://cryptome.org/2012/07/censored-slashdot-post.htm

    4. Re:Moral Credibility by Raenex · · Score: 1

      I've already read it. It's pretty bland stuff, and I have my doubts that Slashdot censored it in the first place, but who knows.

    5. Re:Moral Credibility by Gaygirlie · · Score: 1

      In order to safely operate today's generation of nuclear fission reactors, you need the operators and regulators to be transparent and competent. The folks running this Fukushima travesty are neither transparent nor competent

      Maybe they trying to do just what you're describing: with enough test subjects and radiation maybe one of them will turn transparent, then they can clone that person and raise fully transparent work-force!

    6. Re:Moral Credibility by Soulskill · · Score: 1

      We decline hundreds of submissions every day. Most people are fine with it. A few go crazy and call it censorship or fascism or worse.

      Note that I said decline, not delete; the "censored" submissions are still publicly viewable, just like every other rejected submission.

      A few examples here, here, here.

      The author also seems to misapprehend the nature of Slashdot editors; we aren't random, numerous, or anonymous. There are four of us, and we're all employees of a publicly-traded company.

    7. Re:Moral Credibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Talking of hiding stuff, anyone read this:

      http://cryptome.org/2012/07/censored-slashdot-post.htm

      Yes. Everybody should read it.

      Whoever called it, "Bland" is either stupid or an agent. This is the age of surveillance and population control, and all of it starts with ideas.

      We know for a fact that there are rooms full of full-time employees working to sculpt public perception via astroturfing and fake accounts. If there aren't a few agents working Slashdot after all these years, then they're too stupid to breathe.

  33. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You are talking about America. In most countries, what Americans call "lobbying" is called "corruption" ans is illegal.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  34. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by riverat1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    By that logic corporations should also be illegal.

  35. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by tomhath · · Score: 1
    Please point out where in the linked articles it says this:

    The authorities decided not to prosecute him

  36. Sad and unsurprising by erroneus · · Score: 0

    Culturally speaking, this fits in rather well with what I understand of Japanese culture and mentality.

    Interestingly, this is the second Japan oriented story today where the previous one talks of how the Japanese law makers fell easy prey to copyright interests creating laws and penalties which would be unimaginable anywhere else. (Connected stories discuss the consequences of Japan's famously high conviction rate. Among the reasons many included a high rate of false convictions through confessions obtained through inhumane measures such as torture and the reluctance of performing autopsies and pressures to assign 'natural causes' to death.)

    The patterns seems to come down to a complete disregard of consequences to anyone else so long as personal image/public perception is boosted or maintained.

    In the western mind, we would ideally hope to create such positive public perception by ACTUALLY DOING the things which make us appear to be successful. You know, like maintaining a good safety record by actually maintaining good safety practices. But that's not the way they see it, apparently. They all lie to each other at every turn.

    So it's no wonder there is so much protest of nuclear power in Japan. The people already know they are being lied to and the parties responsibile have no intention of changing their ways.

    (disclosure: I have experience in the US nuclear industry and with working within Japanese organizations)

    In short, the US mindset of TMI (Three Mile Island) is that it was tragic and we learned a lot from it and changed the way we do things.
    In short, the Japan mindset of Fukushima is that it was tragic and we should strive to do a better job of containing embarassing things.

    Holy fucking shit.

    Fuck the environment and all the people. Let's just not get embarassed.

  37. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's actually worse. In many US states that do not have "right to work" laws, you are not allowed to work in a particular job unless you are a member of their union. This is how far this one-sided situation has gotten out of hand. Note that this is not a professional certification issue. You simply cannot work in that field at all unless you are a union member. They've done this so businesses cannot hire other people when the union is on strike, and in one fell swoop erased the fundamental right to work from the table.

  38. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Locutus · · Score: 1

    it's really an IQ test to see if the workers are really intelligent enough to be working at such a location. Slip your radiation detector badge into the shielded sleeve and you get reassigned to digging utility trenches using a shovel.

    LoB

    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
  39. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Um no. Why don't you look and see how well that worked before unions? Here's a hint. We would never have had a need to create unions if there were never a reason to have them. Same thing goes for regulations. There would never have been a need to create the EPA if everything had worked out just fine under the free market. Learn some history please.

    Now you may argue that unions or regulations have gone to far, but it's absurd and ignorant to proclaim they have no place and that the free market would have solved all the problems that they address. The simple fact is that the free market did not fix those problems. If they had, unions would have never been formed in the first place.

  40. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by jfengel · · Score: 0

    Very little of lobbying is corrupt. There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of lobbying is a rather dull profession involving large numbers of meetings and endless phone calls. No significant money changes hands. Some lobbying takes the form of fundraising, but that goes into campaign coffers and the FEC tracks it closely to ensure that it doesn't end up in the candidates' personal accounts.

    I'm not saying it's a perfect system, far from it. But it's not even close to the "legalized bribe" that most people who don't work in Washington imagine it is.

  41. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah! The free market is going to ensure workers' safety with its 'invisible hand!'

  42. Not snark, just interested. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Citation?

    1. Re:Not snark, just interested. by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      Here:
      "The cohort of Japanese men in the Honolulu Heart Program studies has a life expectancy that is longer than their counterparts in Japan, and Japan has the longest life expectancy of any country in the world."

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      JOIN US FOR PONG!
    2. Re:Not snark, just interested. by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      "The cohort of Japanese men in the Honolulu Heart Program studies has a life expectancy that is longer than their counterparts in Japan, and Japan has the longest life expectancy of any country in the world."

      I don't see any attempt to make adjustments for the different lifestyle the cohort had, for example, being in internment camps might contribute to a longer lifetime, also, the cohort were not exposed to the Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombs which may result in a lower lifetime for the Japanese people in Japan.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    3. Re:Not snark, just interested. by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but so what? Americans die more often from other things, like car accidents. So it's probably underestimating the increase.

      It's annoying that critics of the stupid way Americans pay for health insurance fall back on aggregated statistics to convince us to move to an even stupider way of paying for health care that seems to result in inferior outcomes.

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      JOIN US FOR PONG!
    4. Re:Not snark, just interested. by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      It's annoying that critics of the stupid way Americans pay for health insurance fall back on aggregated statistics to convince us to move to an even stupider way of paying for health care that seems to result in inferior outcomes.

      So, basically, your answer to my point that your statistics are meaningless in the context of the argument you were promoting is an ad-hominem?

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    5. Re:Not snark, just interested. by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      No. Why would you think that? I countered your speculation with another speculation (though less speculative, I think), and then made a comment about how this sort of conversation tends to go.

      I can't imagine how you could read any of my previous post as an ad hominem argument, so now I'm sure the rest of your arguments are wrong. :-P

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  43. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and government, the legal establishment, boy scouts...and last, but by no means least, slashdot.

  44. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by mwvdlee · · Score: 2

    Some lobbying takes the form of fundraising, but that goes into campaign coffers and the FEC tracks it closely to ensure that it doesn't end up in the candidates' personal accounts.

    You mean that the FEC ensures that every penny that the candidate doesn't have to spend on his own campaign has to be disposed of some other way?

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  45. Typical for technocrats by emt377 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is actually pretty typical when technocrats are in charge. Because they have huge stockpiles of paid-for dosimeters that workers use every day, but which saturate at very low levels, they decide they're going to use those by putting them behind a shield and then adjusting the readings correspondingly. Makes sense, except they give absolutely no consideration to appearances. Ignorant journalists and nutty lefty conspiracy theorists then have a field day.

    1. Re:Typical for technocrats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is actually pretty typical when technocrats are in charge. Because they have huge stockpiles of paid-for dosimeters that workers use every day, but which saturate at very low levels, they decide they're going to use those by putting them behind a shield and then adjusting the readings correspondingly. Makes sense, except they give absolutely no consideration to appearances. Ignorant journalists and nutty lefty conspiracy theorists then have a field day.

      I am guessing they don't do science where you work...

    2. Re:Typical for technocrats by multiplexo · · Score: 0

      Oh, and anyone who used mod points to mod this incredibly stupid post "interesting" should also be sent to Fukushima to work clean up without any protective gear whatsoever. Seriously, people who are that ignorant just fuck things up for everyone else, they're like those morons who used to put pennies in their fuse boxes because a circuit kept blowing and ended up burning their houses down.

      --
      cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
    3. Re:Typical for technocrats by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I'm just curious why you think he's wrong, or are you just ranting because you don't like what he said?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:Typical for technocrats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I could be wrong here, but what I think the parent is saying is that the dosimeters _ON HAND_ are TOO sensitive* and so to make them useful at Fukushima they need to be filtered. That is, if you say "Well, this plate here blocks x-amount of radiation, then when the reading is y we really know it's x+y." I imagined something like the graph of, say, exchange rates, where, e.g., the value is always between 1.25 and 1.75 to the dollar. Then then filter would represent the 1.25 and below, and the "currency-dosimeter" would measure the changing 1.25 to 1.75 region. I also imagined something like a neutral density filter used on camera lenses so that a longer exposure can be achieved regardless of the intensity of the light.

      * I could be off base about the existence of different levels of sensitivity in dosimeters, but I _DO_ know that x-ray technicians wear dosimeters that, if worn outside, will rapidly "burn out," and since there are different levels of exposure accepted depending on the circumstance (e.g. to save a life or prevent more radiation release, higher exposure is acceptable), I assume there would be different types of dosimeters.

      Perhaps I am being too optimistic. Can anyone confirm or pick apart my thoughts?

    5. Re:Typical for technocrats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did a quick Google search wondering if this could be true. Initially it seems plausible: http://www.nucleonica.net/wiki/index.php?title=Help%3ADosimetry_%26_Shielding#The_Dosimetry_.26_Shielding_Module

      Given that they were aware that workers were going to be receiving larger than normal doses. These weren't radiologists, they were workers assigned to clean up a nuclear meltdown.

    6. Re:Typical for technocrats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering at Fukushima they're dealing with radiation levels measured in milliSieverts per hour, and a lot of dosimeters apparently only have measurement ranges in terms of microSieverts per hour, this is plausible.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_dosimeters

    7. Re:Typical for technocrats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You drastically reduce the accuracy of the devices by using them such a manner.

    8. Re:Typical for technocrats by jrumney · · Score: 2

      This is actually pretty typical when technocrats are in charge. Because they have huge stockpiles of paid-for dosimeters that workers use every day, but which saturate at very low levels, they decide they're going to use those by putting them behind a shield and then adjusting the readings correspondingly. Makes sense, except they give absolutely no consideration to appearances. Ignorant journalists and nutty lefty conspiracy theorists then have a field day.

      Nice try at a plausible explanation. So just show the ignorant journalists the calibration certificates for these lead shields, and give them a sample so they can independently verify that the calibration is correct, and everyone can calm down.

    9. Re:Typical for technocrats by makomk · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty sure that what he's claiming just wouldn't work, because lead shielding attenuates different kinds of radiation at wildly different rates, so there's no way to calculate the workers' actual radiation exposure from the readings the dosimeter behind the shielding gives.

  46. Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Nice logical breakdown. -Though that last sentence, it's a logical fallacy of composition. It is akin to saying

    'The blonde girl I dated was not a virgin, therefore all blonde girls are not virgins.'

    1. Re:Excellent by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 1

      No, sorry. Your analogy is bogus. Nuclear accidents have global impacts. They have detected Fukushima radiation in British Columbia. Chernobyl impacted all of Northern Europe. One blonde chick.... stands alone.

    2. Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, the GP is right. You're generalizing from a very small group of humans (the Fukushima operators and regulators) to the entire human race and condemning the second group based solely on the faults of the first. To see the problem, consider all the functioning nuclear reactors in the world run by humans and balance that against the occasional disaster like Chernobyl or Fukushima. Clearly, many other reactors (run by humans) are doing something right otherwise disasters would be much more common.

      Sure, the disasters can have huge impacts but that doesn't have anything to do with the fallacy pointed out by the GP. That goes more to support your first point (that we need to operate these reactors safely because of the possible consequences when something goes wrong).

    3. Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nuclear accidents have global impacts.

      But thugs and whores don't? Yeah... I will trust the Earth's combined nuclear energy sources and the collectives that run them infinitely more than I will trust a single man or a single woman.

    4. Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't an analogy. It is a counterexample stating how your logic is faulty. Any counterexample would do.

      Individual A is in group B. Individual A is C. Therefore all B is C.

      You don't understand logic. You post on Slashdot. Therefore all people on Slashdot don't understand logic.
      I use a qwerty keyboard. I am human. Therefore all humans use qwerty keyboards.

      Just because some of the people in a group are irresponsible (like the people running Fukushima or Chernobyl) does not mean all the people running the other 438 nuclear reactors are irresponsible. If you still believe that then it is easy to Godwin it up:

      Hitler tried to exterminate all Jews. Hitler was white. Therefore all white people try to exterminate all Jews (including Jews themselves should they be white).

    5. Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, sorry. Your analogy is bogus. Nuclear accidents have global impacts. They have detected Fukushima radiation in British Columbia. Chernobyl impacted all of Northern Europe. One blonde chick.... stands alone.

      How is that "impact"?

      With the proper motivation you could detect me pissing in the other end of your pool, and the most significant thing that could come from that would you making a fuss about it, NOT the (additional) urine in your pool.

      That's what's happening with this accident.

    6. Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree, "All cows are animals, therefore all animals are cows," logic is both common and infuriating. However, I think the argument may be inappropriately applied in this case.

      The problem isn't a few incompetent people in one plant. The problem is that the parent company in charge of those reactors is flawed. TEPCO is a mess which has been spoiling for a disaster for years. A bad management structure/corporate culture will generally affect every aspect of that company's holdings.

      The problems go much further back that this one disaster. The very design of the reactors and its safety margins were the result of corporate fudge-work. Even competent workers are on the back heel when the behemoth they are trying to run is broken from the design table. Check out the 1995 documentary, Nuclear Ginza for a look at how worker conditions were managed eighteen years back. Apparently the crime syndicates were involved. Great.

    7. Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Getting jilted has a global impact. It turns young lonely boys into rampaging jihadists.

    8. Re:Excellent by zyzko · · Score: 1

      Measurable: yes. Dangerous: no. Big difference (and I happen to live in Norhern Europe and remember the hoobla over Chernobyl - in the end it was reduced to "don't eat bucketloads of mushrooms in a short time"). And I do agree with you in principle, Fukushima was a major screwup. And nuclear operators elsewhere have show to cut corners (or at least tried to, in good environment they are caught). By the way - a lot of militaries seem to handle nuclear just fine (both engines on subs and nukes) - maybe we should outsource nuclear electricity to them?

    9. Re:Excellent by Shompol · · Score: 1

      I once detected the Moon in British Columbia. Detected and "impacted by" is not the same.

    10. Re:Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dunno about that... I think that blonde chick has been around a lot more then you think... =P

  47. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    lobby contributes money to congressperson.
    congressperson knows what said lobby wants.
    congress person will most likely do whatever the largest contributor wants, in order to get said money again.
    campaign coffers being filled makes no difference, considering what can be written off as campaign expenses.
    how is that not a "legalized bribe"?

  48. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I got a few ideas, we could call them, briberists, or extorsionists, hmm too real?

    I know, CEOR - Corporate Executive Office Representer

    There, another meaningless generic broad term to wrotten the political system in ephemism's and corruption dragging the whole country and its citizens down with it, except the 1% of course, those can just buy a new country to settle in.

  49. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by ultranova · · Score: 1

    Codify workers rights in LAW, not illegal pooling of power.

    Historically, the only way to get worker rights codified in LAW has been for workers to join together and give the politicians the choice between that and a communist revolution.

    Also, I'm not sure exactly what laws you're referring to when you declare pooling of power to be illegal. Care to elaborate?

    --

    Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  50. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We? Last time I checked, America and Japan were not the same nation...

    What part of "we" spells "nation"? Or did some creepy politician make you believe that "identity = nationality"?

    On /. the meaning of "we" is: "we, nerds & geeks". Except when an AC uses "we": then it is "we, anonymous cowards".

  51. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  52. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

    In the UK we have Health and Safety guys to enforce that kind of thing. It is their job to protect workers and nothing else. Their authority overrules other managers in most cases.

    --
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    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  53. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'd rather outlaw the existence of corporate speech; they can no longer hire lobbyists

    Lobbyists are simply people. Corporations are headed up by CEOs. Are you going to make it illegal for them to contact their reps?

    The only problems with your ideas is that they would be gross violations of the first amendment, and are more dangerous than the issues they are trying to fix.

  54. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Teancum · · Score: 2

    Oddly enough though (in spite of visual appearances from space), Japan is actually a part of North America, from perhaps an unusual point of view.

  55. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Teancum · · Score: 1

    America is also the name of the country, in case you haven't got a clue about the place.

    Still, sometimes it is useful to thump some people in the head to remind them that the Slashdot readership isn't only from Michigan (the original home of Slashdot).

  56. Actually by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    I'm well aware that the sort of dog-eat-dog Capitalism I'm talking about only exists for the lower classes, and that the rich do not participate in it.

    The State != corporation. It is quite possible for the vast majority of people to use the Gov't for the benefit of all. In point of fact, it's the only hope. You need a large entity to stand up to the awesome power we allow the 1% to have. Conservatives threaten us with the grim specter of a repressive Government, but where as my Government might oppress the 1% WILL oppress me. With Gov't I at least have a fighting chance. With the 1% I've already lost the war. If you doubt me google '16 Tons'.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Actually by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The OWS complaint is that the government sold out to the 1%, taking away even that fighting chance. So the police beat them up and threw them in jail for speaking their mind in an unapproved manner, and the rest of the 99% changed channel to see what the Kardashians are doing today.

  57. it smells like... by kunyo · · Score: 1

    "it smells like we've got a communist here" *says glenn beck from the background*

    --
    if free market is supposed to be able to solve every problem, why do i still need to scratch my balls?
  58. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Teancum · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm not saying it's a perfect system, far from it. But it's not even close to the "legalized bribe" that most people who don't work in Washington imagine it is.

    Having been a candidate for public office before, I will say it is hard to turn down campaign donations from groups that offer enough money to finance your campaign. And I've had offers from groups that I most certainly didn't agree with for money I could have desperately used in order to finance my campaign.

    While the laws have changed somewhat since this practice was happening, there was in the past an option for federal office holders (Senate & U.S. House) to be able to pocket excess campaign donations after they were defeated in an election or went into retirement. This still is the case for some state and municipal office seekers (and certainly was in my case when running for municipal office). I had to report all of the donations of course and file formal reports on all of the income and expenses (which typically break even if you are being serious about a campaign), but if a "generous donation" was to fall in your lap, it certainly could end up being something very much like a legalized bribe.

    I do agree though with the fact that lobbyists do much more than handing out huge piles of money. They do tend to be experts on the topics they advocate about and can be very useful in terms of being able to understand what a particular constituency group or industry group thinks about a particular piece of legislation. As long as you understand the bias that the bring to the table, they can also be useful for obtaining information about that particular topic they are advocating for as well.

  59. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is interesting because I find it strange that the workers would do something that is so clearly not in their best interests. Why would you deliberately undermeasure your radiation exposure? What good would it do you? It could certainly do significant harm.

    Working in medical radiology, I see the opposite on an occasional basis. A technologist decides that they want some paid time-off, or light duty (working an MRI in a nice air conditioned office with coffee machine and very little actual work to do - 5 minutes setting the machine up, and 60 minutes waiting for it to finish; instead of pushing around a half-ton portable X-ray machine and heavy, very fragile, very expensive digital X-ray sensors), so they deliberately expose their dosimeter.

    They almost always get caught, because they aren't familiar enough with the physics, to expose the dosimeter with a plausible dose (the average photon energy of a direct X-ray beam is much higher than the scattered radiation, and this is very obvious on energy-discriminating dosimeters). Not only that, but photographic film dosimeters are still frequently used, rather than thermoluminescent crystal dosimeters. With a film dosimeter, gradually accumulated exposures will leave a blurred edge around the energy discriminating filters; a single exposure (especially if from a focused X-ray source like a medical X-ray generator) will leave a razor-sharp margin. Careful examination of the developed film can sometimes estimate the "normal" dose and the "deliberate" dose, even to the point of estimating the exposure parameters set on the X-ray generator.

  60. Typical for Slashtards by multiplexo · · Score: 1, Flamebait
    Are you being paid by TEPCO to tell lies or are you just a worthless piece of shit who has no fucking idea whatsoever about the physics of ionizing radiation, radiation safety or how dosimeters work? I'm leaning towards the latter myself. You're just some conservative or libertarded piece of shit who wanted to post some stupid shit and rant about "ignorant journalists and nutty lefty conspiracy theorists". If you start looking at radiation accidents you find that a depressingly large number of them happen because of stupid fucking bastards like you who say stupid shit like "oh, that alarm always goes off, so we just ignore it." or "ignore those dosimeter readings, they're never accurate." I'll bet that you're one of those dumbfucks who puts a piece of black tape over his "check engine light" because it's always going on and because he thinks he's smarter than the people who design engine management systems and then complains when his engine burns out six months later . Newsflash emt377, you stupid piece of shit, dosimeters are made and designed by people, who unlike you, are intelligent and know what the fuck they're doing. They work their asses off to make sure that these devices deliver readings that are accurate because they know that people's lives and health depend upon it. The rule in radiation safety is that you always trust the dosimeter, if the your dosimeter readings are higher it's because you're being exposed to higher amounts of radiation.

    Stupid bastards like you deserve to be forced at gunpoint to work cleanup at Fukushima, with no protective gear whatsoever. Either that or you should be forced to wear a Cobalt-60 jock strap until your balls and dick fall off and there's no longer any danger of you producing offspring who will further pollute the gene pool.

    --
    cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
    1. Re:Typical for Slashtards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find your ideas very well thought out and compelling. Do you have a news letter?

  61. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by jfengel · · Score: 0

    Yep. Usually, they just spend it, of course. In fact, they're usually in debt, and spend the beginning of the term trying to pay off those debts before they can run again. Hillary Clinton is still trying to pay down the debt from her campaign, so the "Hillary Clinton for President" committee still exists.

    If there's anything left over, they usually end up giving it to somebody else's campaign or to the national committee. Charitable donations are also legal.

    http://law.justia.com/cfr/title11/11-1.0.1.1.21.0.1.2.html

    It specifically forbids personal use (where the previous section gives a lengthy description of what constitutes "personal use", to the point where they have to say explicitly "yes, it's OK if you wear campaign tee-shirt".)

  62. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by dcollins · · Score: 1

    Joe, Bob, and Frank should make the decision on whether their interests align (i.e. to unionize and bargain collectively), not you or I with abstract arguments. Historical and present-day evidence shows that unionization increases wages, benefits, and working conditions across the board. "United we stand, divided we fall" and all that.

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  63. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Fuzzums · · Score: 1

    I've always hated grammar.

    --
    Privacy is terrorism.
  64. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

    I'd rather outlaw the existence of corporate speech

    And how do you expect to do that?

  65. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Fuzzums · · Score: 1

    Communists?

    --
    Privacy is terrorism.
  66. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by jfengel · · Score: 1

    The ability to pocket excess campaign cash ended quite some time ago, in 1989. The FEC has spent a long time tightening the laws. They're still far from perfect, of course.

    Candidates do from time to time get big donations from groups who disagree with them, and they need to look closely at just what's going on there. It's illegal to promise to vote for their pet bill in exchange. About the most you can do is an unspoken opportunity to take their meeting, though you have to pretend it's a coincidence rather than quid pro quo. And sometimes, that meeting really is all they want. It's their right to try to get you to change your mind.

    Most of the time, people with money give it to a candidate who already supports what they want, rather than trying to change a candidate's mind. It's cheaper, too: they may be a large campaign contribution, but as a simple trade of value, other people also gave you money. Switch your vote on them and they don't give you money again, and you find yourself out of office.

  67. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 4, Funny

    America is also the name of the country

    Yeah, if Sarah Palin taught you geography.

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  68. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you are not allowed to work in a particular job unless you are a member of their union

    And here in Pennsylvania you are not allowed to join many unions unless you can show your voter registration card indicating you are a registered Democrat.

  69. say what ? by aepervius · · Score: 1, Interesting

    A man mugged me. Therefore all men are thieves. Some woman betrayed me with my best friend therefor all women are cunt. Generalizing is stupid. You are generalizing from one company to the whole fucking human race. This is neither interresting nor insightful.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:say what ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No you got it wrong. A closer analogy would be if your best friend, who you trusted with your life, have robbed you. Well...how do you feel now?

    2. Re:say what ? by anethema · · Score: 1

      While I don't agree with him, I would say his point is more akin to the fact that with enough people running reactors, it only takes 1 of any of them to cause a disaster such as this. Since the disaster is so large scale, it is not an acceptable risk.

      I personally think that even with these disasters, nuclear is the more safe and smarter way to product power going forward, especially in the newer generation reactors that are much safer by design.

      --


      It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
    3. Re:say what ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/japan-earthquake-and-tsunami-in/9084151/How-the-Yakuza-went-nuclear.html

  70. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    We should make up a name for such a unified group of people.

    And then we should make it compulsory for workers to join such a group and garnish their salary!

    Lobbyists for all!

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  71. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Phrogman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Precisely. Although Unions have their own problems that they bring to the table, the general effect is to improve the worker's conditions, safety, wages, etc. As long as they are watched as closely as the Corporations (and to be honest they watch each other), then some balance can be struck where everyone benefits. Without Unions, Corporations are free to abuse their workers without check.
    Yes, as people will point out, the worker's are free to quit if they want to - and if they are aware of the problems in the first place - but that is not always a viable alternative in a society and economy where finding a job is practically like winning the lottery at times.
    Left to themselves, I think most corporations *will* misuse and abuse their workers in the name of profit.

    --
    "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
  72. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

    I meant every penny of their OWN money. I'm assuming candidates also contribute some of their own money to their own election committee.

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  73. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by tomhath · · Score: 1

    People from South and Central American countries will get in your face if you say they're not Americans.

  74. ha ha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Karl Marx may have been many things, but an economist he was not, nevermind a great one. If your definition of "intellectual" is "people who think Marx was a great economist", then yes, your sentence is true.

    He just thought up a solution to a social inequity prevalent during his age, which got popular because, like religion, it appeals to the poor masses. It got abused every fucking time it was tried, just like religion, by smart and greedy people rising to the top and controlling the power. Because humans are not perfect beings. In the end, money or not, the goal is power, and the people at the top get to it every time without fail. The difference is that only Marx' utopian society plan requires people being kept in the dark and fear by an authoritarian system.

    1. Re:ha ha by Zeroedout · · Score: 3, Informative

      Umm, he published more than one work. You're probably thinking of The Communist Manifesto which was written to inspire the working class to rise up. His economic theories are laid out in a work called "Das Capital" (IIRC).

      You're right that it was abused, but I would argue that no country has ever implemented communism as Marx talked about it. IE it has never been tried.

      Further, there is nothing about Marx's communism that necessarily requires keeping people in the dark in an authoritarian system. IIRC, he called for 'workers to own the means of production.' Kinda hard to be kept in the dark, when you own the damn the thing. It's also not authoritarian when you are the boss, albeit with others.

      Now it has been a while since I read both works, but I don't recall anything that would conflict with open/transparent government and democracy. He did want a centrally planned economy, I guess it would have to be authoritarian in the sense that some group makes decisions on what happens; in his time period, I suppose you couldn't query the masses. I think it would be very interesting to see communism implemented again, ie a centrally planned economy, but instead of a small group/department of planners, poll the citizens?

      And heck, if we still want to allow entrepreneurship, just make a law that says 51% of shares of any company are divided amongst all employees.

    2. Re:ha ha by Raenex · · Score: 1

      You're right that it was abused, but I would argue that no country has ever implemented communism as Marx talked about it. IE it has never been tried.

      Given that multiple countries went down the path of communism, you might take the hint that the Marx ideal is just that, an ideal that doesn't come to fruition in national politics. Claiming it has never been tried is bullshit.

    3. Re:ha ha by Zeroedout · · Score: 1

      perhaps. Or people with power don't like sharing it. Universal suffrage was an ideal that had failed until it was implemented successfully. Having no slaves was an ideal until it was implemented properly. Come to think of it, all theories are just ideals that don't come to fruition in national politics until well, they do.

      Don't give up just because it is hard and hasn't been done right in the past! If people did this, our society would still involve flinging shit at whoever is in the next tree. I bet the concept of a city was just an ideal that failed many many many times until the right conditions let it succeed.

    4. Re:ha ha by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Don't give up just because it is hard and hasn't been done right in the past!

      Given the past failures, I think converting an entire country to communism is a very bad idea. If people want to pursue this idea, they're better off trying to replicate it in tiny communities and then trying to scale it up, preferably through peaceful means.

    5. Re:ha ha by khallow · · Score: 1

      His economic theories are laid out in a work called "Das Capital" (IIRC).

      Das Capital is just another religious work. It has little scientific value, aside from providing a window into the thought processes of some social reformers of the day. It's amazing how people still flock to the Marxist will-o-wisp. It's failed every time it's been tried and it has been tried many times, contrary to your assertion.

      The problem is that Marxist communism doesn't account for human nature. That's why capitalism is still around and still thriving.

      And heck, if we still want to allow entrepreneurship, just make a law that says 51% of shares of any company are divided amongst all employees.

      The bad ideas never stop flowing do they? And what have these employees done to deserve such a large share of the company? It's not enough to just work there for which they're already being paid. They need to contribute substantially in addition to that to the company's welfare.

      I think it would be very interesting to see communism implemented again, ie a centrally planned economy, but instead of a small group/department of planners, poll the citizens?

      We already know the result. The "99%" wants the "1%" to pay for all sorts of boondoggles and waste. I'd rather not descend into an Ayn Rand cliche myself.

    6. Re:ha ha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of the things you mention have actually been "tried" multiple times to "get right". We didn't have universal suffrage until we did it. Once. We had slavery until we didnt. There were other places who didnt have it at all and they were ok too. The "concept" of a city is a natural progression from a village which is a natural progression from a bunch of huts.

      The "it has never been tried because the ones that failed were not implemented correctly" is starting to get old. It is probably coming from people who did not experience one of the "failed" implementations themelves, but how many more nations must come under authoritarian boot for this concept to sink in to everyone's minds, that communism leads to dictatorship every fucking time ? It doesn't matter that you don't see what causes it. The fact of the matter is, it has happened. Every time. There is no "commune" larger than few dozen people that has survived being "implemented correctly". That should be telling.

  75. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by lennier · · Score: 3, Informative

    Collective bargaining is an absolutely silly way to conduct business.

    Of course it is. That's why Wal-Mart loses so much money and has no influence on its suppliers by buying in bulk.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  76. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by lennier · · Score: 1

    If the radiation detector reaches a certain level, that means the contractor has to kick that employee to the curb and hire a fresh one. You know how much that cuts into the profit margin?

    Especially since the curb is probably radioactive and buying new plastic bags to cover the contractor's boots costs money.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  77. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Works pretty well over here (Belgium).

  78. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another shill for the "job makers". We need unions because the law doesn't do enough and the businesses will fuck over employees as hard as they can. I know that you know that.

    The only people clamoring for the dissolution of unions are corporate shills or complete morons. Which one are you?

  79. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're kidding, right? Our country has been called "America" in conversation for longer than you or I have been alive. It's also sometimes called the US, which isn't the full name either. It's entirely conventional, nonetheless.

  80. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think you're onto something.

  81. Plutocracy is evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the company directors and inspectors and every government prostitute that signed off on this should be forced to do clean up duty until they drop dead.

  82. Same as Chernobyl by Shifty0x88 · · Score: 1

    They told the guys trying to cover Chernobyl with a "lid" the same thing. It is because after you get so much radiation, they just fire you and tell you not to come back. Also, right after this happened Japan allowed people to get more radiation then usual, so that their emergency workers could work longer, even if it isn't healthy.

  83. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  84. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by FormOfActionBanana · · Score: 1

    ...but not Canadians. Wonder why?

    --
    Take off every 'sig' !!
  85. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by FormOfActionBanana · · Score: 2

    You must hate communicating.

    --
    Take off every 'sig' !!
  86. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

    The FEC has spent a long time tightening the laws.

    If the FEC has been tightening the laws, then we have bigger problems than lobbyists bribing elected officials, since the FEC is not part of either branch of Congress and therefore had no business changing laws in any manner.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  87. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by tomhath · · Score: 1

    You should also thank Rep. William A. Steiger (R-WI) for authoring the bill and Richard Nixon for signing it into law.

  88. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People from the United States of Mexico are Mexicans. People from the United States of America are Americans. There is no other group that is called "Americans" (except by Spanish-speakers who deliberately speak English incorrectly). It's consistent and unambiguous. People from the USA are Americans.

  89. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 0

    Yeah, that's because they don't speak English. There is no place in the world where a native English speaker is confused on that point. It's *only* in places where Spanish is spoken where I've ever seen that issue. It's a language thing that's a translation error by the Spanish speaker.

  90. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Lobbyists are simply people. Corporations are headed up by CEOs. Are you going to make it illegal for them to contact their reps?

    Nobody has said anything of the kind. Bill CEO can spend his CEO salary on all sorts of things. But when Ford MoCo spends money on lobbyists, that's not the same thing, even if someone from FoMoCo must hand the cash over.

    The only problems with your ideas is that they would be gross violations of the first amendment, and are more dangerous than the issues they are trying to fix.

    Only if you are too stupid to know the difference between a corporation and a person, or think that corporations have more rights that people (they are a person for rights, and not for responsibilities, so all the good and none of the bad makes them "better" than a person).

  91. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Call all donations from artificial persons to political organizations "illegal bribes". That wasn't so hard, was it?

  92. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    The ability to pocket excess campaign cash ended quite some time ago, in 1989.

    I remember a few long-term representatives that retired then. If they ran again, then all the money would go in the same pool. If they retired, they got to pocket it. Some of the older ones with multi-millions in the war chest called it quits and retired.

  93. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Here's the nice thing about the free market. If you don't like something your employer tells you to do, you don't have to work for them. In fact, with a free enough society, you can tell others what your employer tried to tell you to do which will either:

    There has never existed a free market, and the few attempts in small areas failed before they ever really started. It's impossible. For one, there must be minimal barriers for shopping. In the labor side (what you are talking about here) that means a $0 cost to change jobs for both the worker and the hiring company. IF that were true, you'd be right. It's not, therefore you are necessarily wrong. You might as well argue about who wins in a battle between batman and spider man, or a unicorn and a pegasus.

  94. what are you talking about? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    what do you mean rely on yourself?

    explain what this means in the context of your healthcare

    for example: you break arm... what does "rely on yourself" mean when you break your arm, exactly?

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:what are you talking about? by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      That's a fair question, and I'd also ask what you meant by corporations "providing for our health."

      Personally, I would expect that I'd probably have insurance for something unexpected like this. Or perhaps I'd simply keep a certain amount of cash on hand for unexpected medical issues, and use that to pay a doctor to set the broken arm, put on a cast, etc.

      I would actually trust corporations a lot more than I would the government. In theory (if they haven't colluded with the government) the corporation actually has an incentive to satisfy my needs (I'm assuming we're talking about an insurance company). Of course, there are mitigating factors, like how much competition there is for my business, but it's gotta be better than a government monopoly (unless it's an actual private monopoly colluding with the government or something, at which point it's probably about the same).

      Maximizing profit while satisfying consumers is generally a good thing. For a health care related example, take a look at the corrective eye surgery industry. The procedure is generally not covered by insurance, so there is competition both on quality and price.

      --
      JOIN US FOR PONG!
    2. Re:what are you talking about? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      you agree carrying insurance should be mandatory right?

      otherwise, those without insurance avoid the bill for their broken arm or declare bankruptcy, and we pay for their medical care, as the bill gets passed on from the hospital in the form of state bailouts and increased costs

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    3. Re:what are you talking about? by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      No. I think the free rider problem is dwarfed by other issues that basically boil down to having a third party executing the payment for services rendered and received by two other parties.

      --
      JOIN US FOR PONG!
    4. Re:what are you talking about? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      good, you're with me, you believe in single payer universal healthcare. thank you

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    5. Re:what are you talking about? by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      I'm impressed that your are unable to equate "a third party [insurance company] executing the payment for services rendered and received by two other parties" with "a third party [government] executing the payment for services rendered and received by two other parties."

      It's almost as impressive as your idea of "Tea Party myths."

      --
      JOIN US FOR PONG!
    6. Re:what are you talking about? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      you don't like the idea of tea party myths, that's great

      and you don't like my reasoning on the issue, that's great

      we still haven't heard one single belief of yours that would somehow make a better system that would therefore validate your criticism and opposition here

      the issue is not about finding an ideal solution, there is none. the issue is accept the government as the payer, not because it is very good, it will suck. but even at that level of mediocrity, it is still far better than a corporation whose primary imperative is making money, not paying your hospital bills

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    7. Re:what are you talking about? by mwlewis · · Score: 1

      I think the weight of evidence shows that corporations seeking profit will generally operate a more desirable system than a system run by government. I said that before, and I get it that you disagree.

      To expand on my previous point, having a third party paying for something puts incentives in the wrong place, and you end up with a distorted market and out of control costs. Putting the government in charge to manage these things by fiat doesn't help (see Hayek's knowledge problem), and in fact, makes things worse.

      --
      JOIN US FOR PONG!
  95. then jobless workers should not breed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then you have solved the problem you posed a couple posts above. It's got nothing to do with globalism or income inequity.

    According to your own rules, once the workers are no longer needed and job market shrinks due to automation and/or outsourcing, they should no longer bear children. The people with the means have no reason to let jobless workers breed out of control. This solution is consistent with your own position illustrated above with Raj and the other poor people.

    So if you feel mistreated or underpaid, you know what you have to do to reduce your impact to society.

  96. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Changing your mind based on new findings or evidence when it's the right thing to do is also important. Politicians will have difficult time changing their position when it means loosing donations.

  97. Nuclear Ginza by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Corruption surrounding worker conditions is nothing new in the Japanese nuclear industry.

    Watch this 1995 documentary to learn about some of the stuff under the surface, Nuclear Ginza

    Organized crime even has its teeth in the thing.

    It's a damned mess.

  98. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

    You expect the recipients of those bribes to make them illegal?

  99. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

    and don't go assuming that all of we are even human as I'm not nor ever have been. The only reason I'm here is because of a flat tiger

    --
    Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
  100. Typical Japan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We can LoL to our hearts content.

    Yet, having lived there, should I have stayed, never to have been granted Citizenship because of my blood, and thinking all of the 100k of Korean, Chinese and Taiwanese trapped in Japan's 'Immigration System' makes me very happy to have never changed my name, changed my heritage and never payed for surgical changes my body in order to 'fit' into Japan citizenship ... Citizenship Japan Style.

    Racism lives in Japan and is codified by the Government of Japan. 'Government of Japan' what a joke.

    LoL

  101. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't tell if you're naive, completely cynical, or just trolling.

    Sure, spread the word about something you didn't like about your employer, after quitting, while you have no income. You will be labeled a troublemaker, have trouble finding new work (it's hard enough already without that label, or don't you read the news?), and if your employer thinks you will actually influence someone, they will sue you into bankruptcy, or even jail.

    Employees don't give up jobs because of some malcontent (especially in this job market, remember?).

    Customers who hear about some crazy's claims will ask about them, almost certainly not drop them as a vendor, and you're back to being sued into oblivion.

    "quit or demand higher pay to work"? Are you serious? Have you ever HAD a job? In the real world?

    Wow. Just wow. Ignorant, history-free children like you are hastening the death of unions, and showing corporations that their opportunity to baldly exploit the workers is back. Triangle Shirt Factory redux.

  102. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So is paying it to keep your pregnant mistress quiet so you can get elected ok?

    (In reference to John Edwards arguing that he was not seriously in the campaign at that point and thus the hush money was personal use and thus ok, which I thought odd since he'd likely have a better case if he claimed that it was still going for his election campaign. Given that he was being charged with using campaign funds improperly.)

  103. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Teancum · · Score: 1

    The FEC has spent a long time tightening the laws.

    If the FEC has been tightening the laws, then we have bigger problems than lobbyists bribing elected officials, since the FEC is not part of either branch of Congress and therefore had no business changing laws in any manner.

    In fairness, what happened was that some bureaucrats at the FEC proposed legislation that was sent to members of congress that subsequently changed the laws to get rid of stuff like members of congress pocketing the campaign financing. It went through congressional hearings and the full legislative process in Congress including the President's signature in order to become law.

    Still, you shouldn't be looking at unelected bureaucrats as the source of protection for a democratic society. No matter how smart a bunch of guys at a federal agency might be, they still aren't perfect and it sort of goes against democratic principles to even have such people "above the law".

    In this case the practice of pocketing campaign contributions pissed off more than a few ordinary citizens as well, so it was politically advantageous to be "above the fray" and to get rid of the practice.

    Then again, instead of pocketing the campaign contributions they can now move the money to a "Super PAC". Not quite the same thing as being able to pocket the money but they can use the money to try and influence political campaigns of their "heir apparent" to the office they are leaving or be able to continue to have political influence in politics for many years afterward on various issues they care about. The money doesn't just disappear and it certainly doesn't go into the federal treasury in most cases.

  104. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Teancum · · Score: 1

    Canadians had the good sense to tell the Continental Congress to go to hell, even if they had to fight two wars against America to drive that point home. Good for them too.

  105. If you glow and you know it clap your hands by PDX · · Score: 1

    If you glow and you know it clap your hands!
    If you know how to show it and you really want to blow it clap your hands!

  106. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by oiron · · Score: 1

    Congratulations! You have just invented the strike - the most common weapon in the hands of the union!

    Assembly still needs a spokesman. Otherwise it's just noise, and ineffective.

  107. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by fredprado · · Score: 3, Informative

    You are insane. There is a continent called America and you are part of it, it is sometimes called Americas in English, but both forms are correct. The name "America" can refer to either US, North and South America individually or together. Any of these 4 uses is correct.

    I am pretty fine with the way you chose to call your country, you can choose to be called as you wish imo, but your saying that there is no continent with such name only shows how badly US education has become.

  108. Same with Keynes by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    I've seen the same with Keynesian economics - people claim it's a failure when most of the time the government only impliments HALF the strategy.

    Yes, it calls for cutting services, increasing taxes, and paying down debts when the economy is heated - cutting services frees up government workers to go work in the private economy, helping to fulfill that demand, increased taxes reduces the cash available for hiring said workers, acting to cool it, and paying down debts allows the government to have a good balance sheet and credit when the next downturn hits.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  109. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    No, but the question wasn't "how do you get a body to pass rules against itself?" but "how do you outlaw [one specific idea]?" Answering how it would happen isn't the same thing as saying that it would be practical or likely.

  110. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by mysidia · · Score: 1

    I'd rather outlaw the existence of corporate speech; they can no longer hire lobbyists, else they lose their license to exist. Let the senators or congressmen talk to people one-as-one as individuals w/o a middleman. Stop my company from speaking for me, as if I automatically agree with the company's position just because I work here.

    Corporations are legally persons; they are merely an organization of their shareholders' property, with administration entrusted to their executives. The shareholders and their corporation have constitutional 1st amendment protection, and you can't do that.

    Specifically: It would be unconstitutional to attempt to restrict their speech.

    And the shareholders of the corporation (and therefore the organization and executives to whom they have entrusted administration of their assets) have a right to peacefully assemble and a right to petition the government for redress of grievences.

    Their rights do not cease to exist, when the shareholders pool their assets, organize under a legal name, and appoint representatives and delegates, to administer their assets.

  111. Type of radiation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It might have to do with the desired type of radiation that the detector is there for:
    If it can't get past 2mm of lead, it doesn't seem like it'd be that dangerous to a worker in a radiation suit. To those who don't know, many kinds of radiation can't even make it past the dead layer of cells on the reader's skin. It's there to measure hard radiation like neutrons, therefore, the lead could be there to filter out radiation that isn't actually dangerous to the worker, but can still register on the detector. Why is such a radiation detector being used instead of a more proper one? Japan probably ran out of the "sensitive to hard radiation only" personal detectors early on possibly when this disaster occured (if you can call it that when no fuel material is actually released!)

  112. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by fredprado · · Score: 1

    In English, "The Americas" is the correct way (correct because it's the unambiguous way) to refer to both north and south America. North America is unambiguously North America. Same for South America.

    No it is not: As you seem to have been checking wikipedia, you could have looked for the relevent reference.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas

    Or if you need a dictionary entry, here it goes:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/america

    "America" is a word used in English to define the sum of both South and North America. It is also used (in English as well) to define each one of them by omitting the "South" and "North" words in the same way you omit "United States of" when you use America to refer to your country.

    You can use "America" to classify a continent or the set of two continents, depending on how you see it. It is irrelevant. Either way the word is a synonym to "Americas" and can be used this way in correct English.

    You are the one that is wrong. Saying otherwise for the first time shows ignorance. Keep insisting on it, shows stubbornness.

  113. Radioactive Whales by cheekyboy · · Score: 2

    hopefully, when they measure high radiation in whales, they will finally stop eating them.

    Wouldnt that be ironic.

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
  114. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Darby · · Score: 1

    You are insane.
    No, you are both ignorant and vulgar.

    There is a continent called America and you are part of it, it is sometimes called Americas in English, but both forms are correct. The name "America" can refer to either US, North and South America individually or together. Any of these 4 uses is correct.

    No, there does not exist upon this earth a continent called "America". There are two different continents called "North America" and "South America". This is neither new nor ambiguous.
    Collectively, the two continents can be referred to as "The Americas". The name "America" by itself refers to the country formally known as "The United States of America".
    These are different terms referring to different things. It is not true that the word "America" refers to four different things.
    Why would you make up something so stupid and ignorant?

    I am pretty fine with the way you chose to call your country, you can choose to be called as you wish imo, but your saying that there is no continent with such name only shows how badly US education has become.

    The fact that you think there are only six named continents when there are, in fact, seven shows how poor your education was. I have no idea where you're from, but rather than slag everyone born in your country, I'll just assume that you're one of the dumb ones from wherever that is.

  115. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by FormOfActionBanana · · Score: 1

    Thank you. The Canadians did not fight two wars against two continents, including their own; they only needed to target the United States of America.

    --
    Take off every 'sig' !!
  116. EXTERNALITIES by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you don't understand and incorporate dealing with them in your "economic" theory - you simply have no business even thinking about this stuff, let alone commenting on it.

  117. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 0
    You never answered whether English was your first language. I can only assume it is not, as you are wrong, and using the dictionary to define usage, when the dictionary tries (And often fails) to describe usage. The words are defined by usage, not dictionaries. And Native English speakers almost universally define the words as I have, and only people who confuse words in their native language have any issues with that (Almost exclusively Spanish speakers).

    You are the one that is wrong. Saying otherwise for the first time shows ignorance. Keep insisting on it, shows stubbornness.

    You are the one showing your jackassery. There is no place on the planet where a native English speaker saying "American" would ever mean "South American". It's possible that Spanish speakers misuse managed to make it into a dictionary. That doesn't make it right, and reading the usages you quote, at best, it's the last entry, and the entries are always listed in order of most common to least, so one should assume all the others first, and you don't, indicating you don't even know how to use the dictionary you are quoting.

  118. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must hate thinking.

  119. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 0

    It's consistent and unambiguous.

    It's anything but that.

    People from the USA are Americans.

    So are Mexicans, Canadians, Ecuadorians, Brazillians etc. EOT

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  120. Ukrainian Subcontractors? by stigamet · · Score: 1

    In Soviet Ukraine, radioactivity detects you!

  121. Oh my mother was good at this by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    Me: Mom, do we have some candy!

    Mom: Yes, we do.

    Me: Can I have some?

    Mom: No, if you have some then we won't have any any more.

    Me: Oh... (I know there is a hole in this argument but I can't quite put it into words). I guess you don't need logic when you got "because".

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  122. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by FormOfActionBanana · · Score: 1

    If you don't like grammar, I bet you $1 your code doesn't compile. Or your network is routed incorrectly.

    --
    Take off every 'sig' !!
  123. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And this is *exactly* what it is for.

    Culture of deference my arse, this is badly fucked up.

  124. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Lisias · · Score: 1

    We don't need more unions.

    What we need is already existent unions WORKING.

    HOW IN HELL this will not be prosecuted?

    --
    Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
  125. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by sqrt(2) · · Score: 1

    America also refers to The United States of America. Sorry, you lost this one. Just try to accept it.

    --
    If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
  126. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by sFurbo · · Score: 1

    By the same measure, monopolies would be free to act in ways that are damaging to the consumer, and are illegal today. Of course, some* libertarians will not have a problem with this.

    *Depending on the definition of libertarians.

  127. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by sFurbo · · Score: 1

    If all computer sellers agree to not sell any computers for less than 2.000 $, that is illegal collution. If all welders make the same kind of agreement with what they offer to sell, that is somehow not covered by antitrust laws.

  128. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    +1 Poe's law.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  129. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    If you want to settle an argument with 'fact' then the bulk of mankinds 'facts' are at your fingertips.
    Try it. checking your own 'facts' can be quite an education sometimes, particularly if your like me and left HS before most slashdotters were born.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  130. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you obviously havent left the country.

  131. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

    America also refers to The United States of America.

    Only to those "in the know". And no, I lost nothing here. One can say "ain't" all they want, it won't make it correct.

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  132. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

    Canadians. War. *snerk*

  133. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

    They can, however, get together and pool their money to hire a lobbyist. We should make up a name for such a unified group of people.

    Phirana.

    Leeches.

    Lazy sheep lead by a greedy corporation that attempts to posture itself as being 'for the worker'.

    I guess I should add "niggers" just to deny the anonymous coward thinking he's witty adding it in response. Can't mention lazy people without an anonymous coward amending "niggers" to your thread. I'm one step ahead of you, dickbag.

  134. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by L.+J.+Beauregard · · Score: 1

    Codify workers rights in LAW, not illegal pooling of power.

    2) Repeal those laws in the name of deregulation.

    3) Profit! (but not for the workers, of course.)

    --
    Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
    Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
  135. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by khallow · · Score: 0

    Only if you are too stupid to know the difference between a corporation and a person, or think that corporations have more rights that people (they are a person for rights, and not for responsibilities, so all the good and none of the bad makes them "better" than a person).

    You've been called on this assertion before. Show us the evidence. Don't just make bullshit assertions.

  136. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by etinin · · Score: 1

    Problem is that when you look at a country such as Brazil you have union leaders going around by helicopters while the ones who they represent can barely pay for their food. Heck, the current ruling party even got elected because of support from unions and the ones who they have most benefited are bankers and corporations. Point being that unions can be corrupted by corporations as much as politicians. Corruption arises from people. Countries which are culturally more ethic tend to be a lot less the corrupt. The right way of fixing the problem is from bottom to top, not from the top to the bottom.

    --
    "I decided I could write something better than everything out there in two weeks. And I was right." - Linus Torvalds
  137. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by khallow · · Score: 1

    And I'm a perl script running in an undisclosed location. Can we be friends!

  138. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by khallow · · Score: 1

    Call all donations from artificial persons to political organizations "illegal bribes".

    That leads to First Amendment issues. Why should a human have more rights than an AI?

  139. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by PPalmgren · · Score: 1

    Reward today and tomorrow, not yesterday. Just because something exists because of unions in the past doesn't mean that those same unions are as beneficial today. Given my dealings with them, they reduce safety, add corruption, are existences of gluttony and sloth, and can legally function as a racketeering unit, preventing progress with threats. Unions have served a great purpose in the past, but they've long overstepped their bounds and now function as an impediment.

  140. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by fredprado · · Score: 1

    Oh my! Now you claim you know every single place where native English is spoken. Omniscience at its best!

    So lets see:

    - Wikipedia is wrong - The dictionaries are wrong - People who are not English native speaker are all wrong - You know what all native speakers think

    Here you prove not to be only stubborn and ignorant, my friend, you clearly show you are also extremely arrogant and delusional.

    Language is defined by use. If something makes into a dictionary it is because it is used for sometime and thus is officially part of the language. Even if it was a relatively recent inclusion that just came into the dictionary it would still be correct. It is not though. The use of the word with this meaning in English can be traced from the start of America's colonization.

    Protip: If you don't want ambiguity do not omit words when referring to things. The only meaning of America that does not require other words for disambiguate is the continent (or continent set as you prefer).

  141. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Corruption doesn't arise from people, it arises from an imbalance of power.

  142. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by jfengel · · Score: 1

    Once the money goes into the campaign coffers, it stays there. There's no exception in the law for paying back the candidate.

  143. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

    Last time I checked, Japan was in the continent of Asia. How the hell did we get on this thread anyway?

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  144. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Teancum · · Score: 1

    Actually, it was America that targeted Canada in both wars. The first one was started by General Benedict Arnold, of all the strange coincidences that seem to happen in world history.

    The War of 1812 really accomplished two significant things: painting the executive mansion of the U.S. President to always be painted white, and ensuring the independence of Canada from the USA. Well it also put Andrew Jackson in the White House, but that was for a battle that happened after the peace treaty was signed.

  145. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

    There is no Continent named "America" There are TWO continents named "North America" and "South America" and a country called "The United States of America", but none of the seven continents are called "America" alone.

    Guess your education system is a failure too.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  146. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by ewok85 · · Score: 1

    Same in Australia - we would have weekly meetings to discuss the paper cut Jill had on Tuesday, and to stay safe and ensure we didn't accidentally staple ourselves, wrap it all up with a 15min video on how to lift a box and some cake.

    3 years working for Japanese companies and not a peep about any sort of safety even once. You can even raid the office first aid kit and not log what you took and why - something that would make my old OHS rep have a heart attack.

  147. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by fredprado · · Score: 1

    Accordingly to most countries in the World there is a continent called America:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_continents#Number_of_continents

    The fact is: you were taught a single model and never decide to look up for alternative models and decided to speak about it with the attitude only someone who knows what he is speaking about should have. You don't.

    Furthermore, regardless of how you see it, a continent or a set of two continents, the name 'America' can be correctly used in English to define this entity as explained by me in the thread above.

  148. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually in Mexico we call people from the USA North Americans, so we'd say "norteamericano o gringo". I've never heard a fellow Mexican call persons from the USA " un americano".

  149. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    What you describe is not health and safety, it is stupidity and arse covering. The UK Health and Safety Executive put out a series of H&S myths to try and dispel them: http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/top10myths.ht

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  150. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wait are we talking about Unions or Affordable Health Care Act?

  151. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by FormOfActionBanana · · Score: 1

    Yes, we like it white now, not black and smouldering anymore, thanks.

    Once again, let me clarify: Canada was not targeted by two continents; it was targeted by The United States of America.

    I think my point is pretty well made now. Yours too, apparently.

    --
    Take off every 'sig' !!
  152. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Why should a human have more rights than an AI?

    Whether they should or shouldn't, they don't. Are you arguing equivalence between a corporation and an AI? Based on existing law, neither are citizens.

  153. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    When's the last time a corporation had the responsibility of serving on a jury, or went to jail?

  154. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Wikipedia is right, and supports me, not you. The dictionary is right and supports me, not you. If the non-native speakers would stop asserting to know the language better than all other people on the planet, then there wouldn't be an issue. If a Spanish speaker is not in the room, it is unambiguous. Yet you assert that's a problem with everyone else.

  155. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    So are Mexicans, Canadians, Ecuadorians, Brazillians etc. EOT

    Only because they mistranslate a similar sounding word. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_friend But when enough people misuse language, words like misunderestimate make it in the dictionaries.

  156. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

    Only because they mistranslate a similar sounding word.

    Can you explain what's to "mistranslate" here? America/America?

    But when enough people misuse language, words like misunderestimate make it in the dictionaries.

    Or words like America start meaning only a part of America? You know what? USAns are already starting to think "their" land is the whole world. It's high time the were put in their place.

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  157. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by khallow · · Score: 1

    So what? The owners and employees do have those obligations. We could also note that corporations can't vote and are always owned and controlled by someone else.

    People also don't have to benchpress the paperwork that makes up a corporation's existence either.

    Again, I'll ask you. What's the evidence that corporations have more rights than people do?

  158. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by khallow · · Score: 1

    Are you arguing equivalence between a corporation and an AI?

    Are you? You refer to artificial persons. That excludes corporations which aren't legally people. They are in limited cases treated like people but they aren't considered people. Corporate personhood isn't personhood.

    On the other hand, artificial persons merely mean people who have been made through an artificial process. So artificial intelligences could be people.

  159. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    And then we should make it compulsory for workers to join such a group and garnish their salary!

    Your increased salary alone, even without the extra benefits those union dues buy, far outweigh the puny dues themselves. Not very good at math, eh? 1000+100-20 >1000.

  160. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

    What if he doesn't need to put his own money in the campaign coffers to begin with.
    For instance if some company has already put enough money in the campain coffers so he doesn't need to?

    --
    Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
  161. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    Thank you for deciding that for me! Where would us bad-at-math types be without our glorious leaders?

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  162. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by fredprado · · Score: 1

    Neither Wikipedia nor the dictionary support you by any stretch of logic, however tortuous that may be, unless, of course, you don't know how to read. I guess we can add illiteracy to your list of traits.

  163. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

    From the article:

    "The seven-continent model is usually taught in China, India and most English-speaking countries."

    Since this is a high-technology website hosted in an English Speaking Country, I reject your paradigm and substitute it with my own.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  164. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Bah, best I can figure, you object to some unrelated opinion of mine, so you bicker over everything any chance you get, regardless of the facts or reasonableness.

  165. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Can you explain what's to "mistranslate" here? America/America?

    Yes. Just because the word is spelled the same in two languages does not mean the meaning is identical. Making such a mistake would be very embarazado.

  166. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Kaz+Kylheku · · Score: 1

    If you're sent to the nuclear plant by the Yakuza because you owe lots of money, that situations is very far removed from any concept of worker's rights.

    Die of radiation in ten years, so you're not stabbed to death next week.

  167. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by khallow · · Score: 1

    Bah, best I can figure, you object to some unrelated opinion of mine, so you bicker over everything any chance you get, regardless of the facts or reasonableness.

    Ehhh, it's not that complicated. I have an avid interest in economics and some degree of knowledge. You've been making erroneous statements about corporate personhood and advocating policies (here the banning of contributions from "artificial persons") that make no sense at all. I am merely correcting you just as I would do anyone else who makes such statements.

    Speaking of "facts or reasonableness" would indeed be reasonable, if it was clear that you had given some thought to the issue. But how can you claim, for example, that corporations have "more" rights than people when you can list and compare the various rights of each alleged party and see that the corporation is lacking. And why equate corporations with "artificial persons"? It's clear they aren't since they can't exercise the basic rights or obligations of a person, as citizen or not.

    Corporation personhood is merely a mechanism for enabling existing rights not the granting of new or extra rights beyond what is already there. It's also not unique to the US. Other countries have their own flavor of this.

  168. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by fredprado · · Score: 1

    You can reject anything you want. It is your prerogative. That does not make it go away, though.

  169. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Corporation personhood is merely a mechanism for enabling existing rights not the granting of new or extra rights beyond what is already there. It's also not unique to the US. Other countries have their own flavor of this.

    How long have you spend outside the US studying corporate law or even working for a corporation? The US doesn't understand what the "corporate veil" is. Outside the US, convictions of corporation members (workers, executives, or directors) is common. Inside the US, almost never is someone prosecuted for what they do under the guise of corporate activity. It takes something as blatant as Enron to get anyone to do anything, but even then, the court cases don't stick. Arthur Anderson was convicted (the company, not the person, if any), but that was overturned, as was Ken Lay's conviction overturned. Outside the US, convictions are regularly obtained and upheld. Corporations aren't there for the initial basic idea that the corporation has to have some "rights" independent of the people working for it or owning it for contracts to survive the termination of those who signed them. That much makes sense. But when it's proven that wrongdoing has happened, the corporate stance is that the "corporation" did it, and that no individual has any individual responsibility. The corporate veil was created so that an investor with no decision making capability would not be responsible for more than their investment. But in the US, it's a shield preventing nearly all criminal charges from being laid against employees. That's not what was intended, and not how the economics texts would lay it out.

    I've heard of no other place in the world where corporations are so far above the law (with the only possible exceptions being where the corporations are government owned and get a "shield" from their government involvement, and not corporatehood). If you want to cite the rest of the world as an example, please do go on. Where are the members as impervious from law as they are in the US?

    But how can you claim, for example, that corporations have "more" rights than people when you can list and compare the various rights of each alleged party and see that the corporation is lacking.

    I have. Specifically, they have the right to be immune to responsibilities. You've ignored that right every time it's mentioned, so of course I've never proven it. Proof is ignored, yet you ask for more to ignore.

  170. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

    So, you're a chauvinist. (Because you assume the other languages/nations get it wrong and yours (or chosen by you) is the only one right.) Bye,

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  171. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by khallow · · Score: 1

    The US doesn't understand what the "corporate veil" is. Outside the US, convictions of corporation members (workers, executives, or directors) is common. Inside the US, almost never is someone prosecuted for what they do under the guise of corporate activity.

    Ok, where's the evidence? A couple of mishandled cases with respect to Enron means corporations in the US have more power than elsewhere? I have to say that is a remarkably poor argument.

    I have. Specifically, they have the right to be immune to responsibilities. You've ignored that right every time it's mentioned, so of course I've never proven it. Proof is ignored, yet you ask for more to ignore.

    Nonsense. You have yet to give an example of this or how the US is somehow different from the rest of the world.

    Where are the members as impervious from law as they are in the US?

    Well, I'd say the rest of the developed world for starters. If you want a much worse corporate situation than the US, then look to China or Russia.

  172. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    You are saying the non-speakers of a language have *more* of a right to define a language than the speakers of that language. That makes you the chauvinist.

  173. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Congratulations! You have just invented the strike - the most common weapon in the hands of the union!

    What are you saying, that people are only permitted to peaceably assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances on your terms?

  174. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

    LMAO. And you don't even know the word is Latin in origin. In fact, you've shown you don't know what you're talking about at all. Good day, Sir.

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  175. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

    You seem to have misunderstood how unions work, they aren't involved in an illegal price setting ring, they are working together to try and enhance their rights, stopping an employer from using their power to drive wages and conditions to the lowest possible level. If you like the lowest possible wage and level of benefits, I'm sure you can find someone to provide it to you quite happily.

    --
    If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
  176. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by sFurbo · · Score: 1

    You seem to have misunderstood how unions work, they aren't involved in an illegal price setting ring, they are working together to try and enhance their rights, stopping an employer from using their power to drive wages and conditions to the lowest possible level.

    By leveraging their monoply. How else would they get the employer to give them more than he would do if no unions existed? What is strikes, if not a demonstration that a monopoly exists? This is not illegal, there is an inherent assymerty in the power of the employer and the employee, which the state tries to even out by allowing unions to leverage monopoly tactics that would be illegal in other areas of commerce. But it is leveraging a monopoly.

  177. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

    You seem to misunderstand the weird monopoly as well. Assy-merty I like the sound of, is it a philosophy or more a French lifestyle?

    --
    If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
  178. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by ewok85 · · Score: 1

    Working in a large company, us desk jockeys had the same OHS schedule as the field techs - which meant as hard as our OHS rep tried, there really wasn't anything he could do with the company mandated OHS time.

    It worked much better when I was working at a car factory (the time was much better spent identifying problems and improving safety), and also in datacenters (for example we improved labeling and documentation to prevent accidents).

    Don't get me wrong - I prefer the Australian method - I've seen some stuff in Japan that makes even the stuff I've seen in China look shoddy, but sometimes people take it a little too far.

  179. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

    What makes your paradigm more correct than mine? Especially, in the century or so since the Panama Canal was completed, there is more reason to see North and South America as two continents than Europe and Asia.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  180. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by sFurbo · · Score: 1

    You aren't even trying to explain to me what I don't understand, and you mock my typos. You are clearly not a person one would go to for intelligent discourse, so I will end this discussion now.

  181. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Assist and asistir have the same root and different meanings. Since you are asserting that English is wrong and Spanish is right, would you make the same judgment for all such "conflicts"? As both came from assistere.

    You don't know what I know. I know exactly where "America" came from. But that doesn't change the current meaning in English. I happen to be fluent in both English and Spanish, and thus managed to see the difference, but coming from the case of a native English speaker learning Spanish, rather than the usual way for people fluent in both to have learned Spanish first. You haven't demonstrated knowledge of anything, other than insults and ad hominems.

  182. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1
    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  183. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

    To make it clearer for you, the USA is the USA and America is America, the USAn hegemony notwithstanding. The usage of the word "American" to denote a citizen of the USA is just an ingrained error, like "gonna" or "ain't". Doesn't make it unambiguous, much less correct.

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  184. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    I've been to 5+ countries with English as an official language. Nobody in any of them took "American" to mean anything other than "A citizen of the USA". The meaning isn't just American English. It's English. And only the Spanish speakers have any legitimate confusion over it, as they have the same word in their language that means something different. And most refuse to acknowledge the possibility of a false friend.

    This isn't about the USA hegemony. People from The United States of Mexico are Mexicans. In all cases. It's simple, it's unambiguous, and it's consistent. With USA, there's confusion only in people who aren't native speakers because America, in regular English, is a shortening of USA, with no other popular meaning. The word "America" has other meanings in other languages, and it's the racist xenophobes outside the US for a change that are trying to wrongly push a new meaning to an English word.

  185. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by fredprado · · Score: 1

    Nothing makes any of my paradigms better than yours, but what we are discussing is not even a paradigm. If you observe with care my words, I never said North America or south America do not exist, neither did I say that they are not continents. Saying some abstract entity like a continent doesn't exist is refuting the existence of the abstraction itself, in this case, the model, which is a falsity, as the model in question do exist.

    Both the 6 and 7 continent models do exist and are used in many countries, including English speaking ones, at least enough to make entries into English dictionaries. Although it is not the prevalent model in USA, it is a model largely used in the World. The properly way to express yourself in this matter is: "Accordingly to the prevalent (or preferred) continent model in USA, North America and South America are considered separate continents, but there are other models that consider both as parts of a single continent, named 'America' or 'Americas', in English."

    Personally, I prefer the strict geological definition of continents as a single mass of land, where there are only 4 continents: America, Afro-Eurasia, Australia and Antarctica, because it just makes more sense. Other definitions are just too vague and subjective. The ONU and the Olympic committee use the 6 continent model without Antarctica (America, Europe, Asia, Africa and Oceania), though.

  186. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

    Yada-yada

    Yeah, right

    the racist xenophobes outside the US

    You really need to brush up on your definitions. Fearing, criticising and even hating the neocolonial terrorist state that is the USA for its hegemony - military, economic or otherwise is, if anything, reasonable (as in, it has its logical reason), not xenophobic and certainly not racist. The USA was built on racism and never ceased to be racist in its internal and foreign policies, so you're simply projecting.

    I myself was a fan of everything USAn up until 2003. Never again.

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  187. Re:This is why we need more unions and more worker by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    2003? When the US elected Bush over Gore when Gore won the popular vote overall and in FL, though the courts and conservative media conspiracy sold it to the public ( not that the public cared one way or another) was the point when I realized the US was irrevocably broken. Though I wasn't ever a blind "fan of everything" of anything, ever.