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USB 3.0 100W Power Standard Seeks To End Proprietary Chargers
judgecorp writes "The USB 3.0 Promoter Group has published a Power Delivery standard which will deliver up to 100W. The specification (press release with link to full details) includes new bi-directional — and backward compatible — USB cables, and has been proposed as the new connector between mains adapters and laptops, eliminating e-waste by standardizing a proprietary component."
At home, only having to run one cable to the wall might be nice, and being able to grab some juice from any friend may end the disaster that is forgetting your laptop power brick when on the road. And imagine only having to pack a single power hub instead of three or four redundant transformers (how many people don't use their laptop to charge their phone nowadays?).
http://xkcd.com/927/
How the hell are they going to get 100W through flimsy USB cables and connectors? 5A at 20V is the profile, but that isn't going to happen with standard USB connectors, regardless of cable gauge. Have a fire extinguisher ready for the inevitable burning laptop when the contact resistance is a couple of Ohm.
A question remains: will companies like Apple, who have used proprietary chargers and connectors for years despite the prevalence of the USB standard, adopt the new cable?
I can't imagine they will, even with their recent EPEAT flip-flop. What I can't figure out is if they are just trying to keep their products distinct or they don't like it when someone else has a really good idea or what. They've already chosen Thunderbolt as their new adapter of choice, and while they'll never use that for the iFamily of products (since so many people won't/can't buy machines with that connectivity), I can't imagine they'll cave to the USB standard now. I do hope I'm wrong though.
On a side note, does anyone know how many thunderbolt devices are actually available for consumer purchase at this point? Are any of them reasonably priced?
Ha, my current laptop runs at 20V @ 11A so looks like I won't be running something like this beast on it.
Does anyone else think this could be a future attack vector? If use existing terminology, the charger is the host and the laptop is the client, what negotiation takes place before more advanced signalling occurs other than something to negotiate what power is required? Basically, what's to stop an attacker putting some sort of malware on the charger, either something to exploit a driver or an actual executable payload on mass media?
That is just silly talk, my implementation will require at least 1.21 gigawatts
If my comment didn't sound as good in your head as it did in mine, then I guess we all know who's to blame
how many people don't use their laptop to charge their phone nowadays?
Count me as one. I don't travel with a laptop - just my phone charger if I'm bringing my phone.
The laptop weighs a few pounds and needs its own bag. The phone charger weighs about 4 oz and takes hardly any space. Same for business trips, too. Actually, I'm using my laptop less and less. A smartphone and a tablet is more the enough for me. And the rare occasions that I need to sit down and do a lot of number crunching, I use one of those "archaic soon to be dead" desktops with a nice big screen and ergonomic keyboard and wrist rest and comfy chair.
A lot of wrist and back pain disappeared when I started using the laptop less.
This would save me from carrying extra junk about and having to find a very specific type of junk when it fails. This is a brilliant idea.
Everyone seems to be bashing this idea, I've no idea why.
I charge my phone via my desktop, and sometimes my laptop only when the latter itself is plugged in, not while it's operating on battery.
But I agree w/ you. These cables ain't designed for 1kW at all, and what's more, what are they going to do about the fact that all countries have different voltage and frequency standards - 110V/50Hz in the US, 220V/60Hz in EU and so on? What's wrong w/ using current cables?
And speaking of which, we've already seen the mini-USB connector get deprecated. Can the USB committee resist the temptation to introduce a new connector standard every few years, which renders old connectors or cables incompatible? And this in a standard that now supports 4 operating speeds - low speed, full speed, hi-speed and now 'super-speed' (which moron thought up that last name?)
You won't get an electric shock touching a conductor at 20V DC, so long as you don't put it on your mouth. The *power* output capability is irrelevant in its ability to shock you.
Ydco co
And this in a standard that now supports 4 operating speeds - low speed, full speed, hi-speed and now 'super-speed' (which moron thought up that last name?)
What will be the 5th operating speed? Über-speed?
In love, war and slashdot discussions, everything is allowed.
How about you read the article, it IS the same shape and stop wasting commenting space?
- http://www.milkme.co.uk
Actually an really environmental idea would be to have standard batteries and power supplys for laptops. Then all laptops would come without the AC/DC converter and, you could just reuse the one from your old one. It usually still works and could probably serve the new machine from a technical standpoint. You could have two variants, 50W and 100W, for different categories of laptops.
They aren't designed for 1kW or line voltage, they're designed for 100W, which according to the article will be delivered at a maximum of 5A, 20V, charging in this mode will require a cable rated for this amount of current.
Are you living in the 90's? Switcher power supplies nowadays accept a wide range of current inputs at a wide range of frequencies, this isn't a serious issue anymore.
Mini-usb had its problems that manufacturers complained about regarding durability and size, so they listened to the complaints and offered their improved version in micro-usb. Now manufacturers are saying they want to use the usb to charge devices and they need more power, and have been running more current than standard through the usb connectors. So in response they're improving the interface to allow more current for faster charging. I feel that the current pace in which they roll out new standards isn't terrible.
Offering the different speeds allows for great fowards and backwards compatibility. When you connect two devices they can communicate as fast as the slowest one permits, allowing you to use older hardware with newer hardware.
From TFS: how many people don't use their laptop to charge their phone nowadays?).
Well, anyone who would rather charge their phone quicker directly from the mains, for a start.
Also, once you're carrying a laptop and transformer around anyway, the extra weight and bulk of a small phone charger is irrelevant
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Ridiculous Speed. Next one will be Ludicrous Speed. Don't you know anything?
I haven't read the spec, but if it's anything like usb 1/2 it won't output 100w straight away. It will negotiate with the device and the device can request up to 100w.
i thought microusb was already law - in Europe at least.
my last 2 phones (purchased outside EU) have used that, a sony Ericsson and a Motorola.
semiaccurate.com has a lot more information. Not just the USB 3.0 group, but the USB 2.0 group as well has adopted this approved this "power delivery" spec. There are USB 2.0 PD and USB 3.0 PD icons shown in the link. So it looks to me like instead of USB 3.1 and USB 2.1, with or without PD will continue to be an option so they'll probably be known as USB 2.0 PD and USB 3.0 PD.
Also, USB 3.0 by itself has increased power availability: 900mA instead of the USB 2.0 500mA. This alone obviates the need for dual USB connectors to power an external 2.5" hard drive.
Quite some time ago, Douglas Adams "declared war" on "little dongly things"
His article is worth reading
Don't forget plaid. I can't wait til we get USBs with plaid speeds!
Yeah, shouldn't it just be able to pump a current over the cable of known voltage and monitor the voltage drop at the other end to detect the cable's resistance? Any power that you pump in that's not coming out on the other side is heat. So you know how much your cable is heating. Assume a worst case scenario of a short cable (high heating per unit length), the thermal limits of the lowest-temperature insulation used in USB cables, and add in a safety factor based on the assumption of a cruddy cable with uneven heating... I'd think that'd be a pretty reliable approach, no?
Heck, you might be able to do better than that. If you have *very* precise pulse timing, you can figure out cable length, and thus unit resistance. I bet a clever electrical engineering student could come up with a way to measure the resistance of the cable independent of cable length using variable frequency AC, too. A capacitance test should let you figure out how much copper you're dealing with, and thus you can compare resistance to capacitance to get the cable diameter. There should be a number of ways to probe it.
"99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
What I wonder is whether or not those phones that conform to microUSB standard still ship with cables or not though? I'm not in Europe, so I don't know, but I have such a hard time imagining a package with just a phone and battery in it. Please tell me it's thus in the great lands of Europe
mine came with a wall socket plug and a usb cable.
It's thus. At least the 4 different devices our family has bought in the last two years have all come with a USB-microUSB cable and a wall charger with no cord but a USB socket.
When I saw 100W I thought : "cool if they went for such a power it should be to enable to power my laptop". Then I looked at the power at the exit of the adapter : 19V 4.74A : almost 100W. And it is from last year with "only" 2 cores, so I doubt if will be enough in a few years. Why didn't they took an confortable margin like 200W, so if the standart succed, we wont have the same kind of odd stuff such like puting 2 usb to power my laptop (like for some hard drive like with USB 2.0) ? Otherwise I like the idea, hoping it will not loose part of his relevance with : standart USB 3.0 PD, micro USB 3.0 PD, mini USB 3.0 PD, ? USB3 PD (used only for printers and scanner).
Also a digital cable probably won't deliver much in the way of current unless it has negotiated with the load.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Of course, here in Europe we expect all mobile phones other than Apple to use the same connector, and we expect that any phone charger will work with almost any phone (just a few very small chargers won't charge large phones at reasonable speed). Despite the restriction on our freedom to have lots of incompatible chargers, we seem to get by. This is an obvious step forward.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
But not the iphone.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Hum ... so you mean that touching my car battery + and - which is just 12V DC is not dangerous ? I kinda doubt that.
It isn't a power cable, it is SELV (safety extra low voltage). If you want to comment on power distribution standards without looking like an idiot, try doing a little research. You will have great difficulty getting any kind of "zap" from 20V at 5A with the built-in short circuit and overload protection built into modern DC/DC converters.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
"Think Different"
I don't get access to any power outlets during the day (since I'm not home most of the day), and at work, I've a laptop and no extra outlets. I've no choice but to charge my phone and tablet through that laptop's USB, no matter how inefficient that is. I can imagine plenty of people in similar situations.
Read what he said. It's not the voltage, it's the current.
110V/220V is a non issue nowadays. I live in Argentina (where we use 220V), and most chargers are "100-240V". I haven't seen any chargers that don't support both standards in around ten years... except for the Nintendo DS, which seems to be a unique exception to the rule.
While the connector is the same, the cable is not (it has some additional requirements to carry 100W), so we'll still need to dump the old microUSB cables we have lying around to get those new ones.
Uh yes different countries use different AC voltages, but they all convert down to a DC voltage between 0-20VDC depending on manufacturer. What would be in the USB cable would be that DC voltage, not the AC house voltage. The idea is you would have adapter in the house capable of supporting USB3 from whatever your house voltage is to the DC standard, and then you would just plug it in. I personally just want a big DC power supply in the basement and run USB ports all over the house.
Yup, I read that wrong.
Not unless you're somehow abnormally conductive. 12V DC is undetectable in normal circumstances. Standards vary, but the low voltage limit for dry locations is usually between 48 and 60V DC.
Do you have 9V batteries? Put a fingertip across one - nothing. Hook the + of one into the - of another. Touch the two remaining terminals with fingers on the same hand. Nothing.
Your tongue, however, is extremely good at detecting current flow. A 9V battery on the tip of the tongue is not comfortable.
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
Could always be, because any implementation might have holes.
You could be even closer than you think - rememeber that "hacking power strip from DARPA"? It could easily generate wrong power signal that could damage devices - depending on protections they have.
Power features in Power over Ethernet (802.3af) are negotiated, but it seems that a lot of logics is on the side supplying power, not the receiving one.
Various companies make overvoltage/overcurrent protection and surge suppression mechanisms that would need to be integrated in powered device to prevent attacks.
Uh, there are a few different power levels it can work at, so not everything would be drawing 100W just because it's plugged in through the USB3.0 PD. It starts at 10W and doubles(ish) up to 100W for each level.
Soon you'll be walking down the street only to be approached by an unwashed person waving a USB cord in your face... "hey man... can fix me up with some juice?"
Follow the money. Selling replacement chargers is an income source. Just look at Dell laptops: they use an industry standard connector with an additional pin inside. The extra pin serves only one purpose: the laptop can tell whether or not the charger is made by Dell. You can buy chargers from other companies, and they will plug into your Dell. The laptop will use the power to run, but will not charge the battery. This behavior serves only one purpose: to guarantee that you buy your replacement from Dell.
This kind of idiotic mentality is what finally let the EU to require a standard for mobile phones. The government shouldn't have to regulate such things, but sometimes the free market fails. I can imagine this happening here as well...
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
I can't. It's extremely rare to have an employer not allow you to plug a power strip into one of their outlets.
I personally just want a big DC power supply in the basement and run USB ports all over the house.
You might think you do but when you actually run the sums you will probablly decide that you don't. Low voltages mean high currents which means high cable losses.
Plus this new power standard requires the host to switch voltages, so you can't run multiple ports directly off a single power supply.
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My wife connects waaaaay too many devices to a single power point by using multi-way adaptors.
Now she will be able to daisy chain various phones, laptops, portable speakers etc,.
Can you blow a USB fuse in this new standard?
No doubt this will be deluged with "that's why not" replies, but let me toss it out there: I've long thought we needed USB 4 or whatever to offer charging power at more serious wattage and also 12V. There's this whole existing eco-system of 12V appliances created by the RV/Boat industry. Quite a lot of your average household *could* soon run at more like 12V, because so much power (outside the kitchen) is just for lighting - and lighting is on the brink of going LED as they are solving the color-rendering-index problem to make it closer to sunlight.
Whole rooms of many houses might need no more than USB wall plugs...and all those lights and fans would then be "smart" appliances with network connections to tell them to turn off when power prices spike or there's been nobody in the room for 10 minutes.
Touching them is fine, what is NOT fine is dropping a spanner on them.
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It's not the voltage, it's the current.
This if oft-quoted but highly misleading.
It is true that current through the body and time for which that current is delivered are what generaly determine how much damage is done.
However it really makes no difference whether the short circuit current of your 12V source is 1A or 1000A, because 12V isn't nearly enough to push that much current through your skin under normal conditions.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Super duper speed.
You are reading that we are talking about DC voltages which by definition are world wide.
all it would take is a couple extra parts to flip either 220 to 110 or 110 to 220 and then send it down to the rectifier bridge a couple resistors and a cap later and you have world wide 5? volts.
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Put your arm across fully powered (18VDC) model train tracks. It fucking hurts. I have also been shocked painfully by a poorly shielded parallel port. Once discovered, we took a meter to it and found that it somehow had an 18V potential on the outer casing, relative to the (very nearby) computer case. While neither of these may have been truly dangerous, 18VDC is more than capable of inflicting considerable pain.
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
My 50 watt IRON LMAO This is going to be funny Crappy Chinese components and 100w accessories. And so what I really want to know is when do the recalls and lawsuits actually begin?
I'd mod you up if I could - 100 watts is a serious amount of power. Aside from 'crappy Chinese components', what do you think will happen when some bright spark figures out a way to defeat the interlocks, and tries to pump 5 amps through a 6-foot long old-style 28 gauge USB cable? The cable alone will be dissipating several watts. Fire, much?
'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
Not in the slightest. You can grab one in each hand and nothing *at all* will happen. The resistance of your skin/body is too high to actually conduct any current.
.. you need all three.
E=I*R
My current Thinkpad 520W with quad-core i7-2820QM came with a 170W adapter, and a pretty bulky, heavy one.
The rated 170W is _peak_ power draw, ie. if all the components of your laptop are running at maximum power you'll still be able to charge the battery, too. 100W likely isn't enough to run both operations, no, but it would still be enough to either power your laptop OR to charge the battery.
Many older 'DC' train systems were half- or full-wave rectified AC, so the peak voltage is much higher than the RMS value.
As for the parallel port vs case, I've found that the leakage voltage as read by a voltmeter reads very low - very low current leakage sources are loaded down by the meter.
This article is interesting.
Another data point - I've worked on telephone circuits 'barehand' without shocks, and that's 48VDC. If the phone rings, THAT HURTS - it's about 90V @ 20Hz.
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
Your cellphone will be able to jump start your car in the winter
Many older 'DC' train systems were half- or full-wave rectified AC, so the peak voltage is much higher than the RMS value.
This was probably the case on my train set. The transformer box was too small to have any appreciable capacitors inside, although I never checked. Off the top of my head, the peak voltage should be about 25 to 26V, so maybe that was what was going on.
As for the parallel port vs case, I've found that the leakage voltage as read by a voltmeter reads very low - very low current leakage sources are loaded down by the meter.
This article is interesting.
So the voltage on the parallel port that zapped me may have actually been much higher than measured? I'm at a loss to understand where a motherboard would GET such a voltage to drive into a parallel port, even if it is using both the +12V and -12V rails off the power supply.
Another data point - I've worked on telephone circuits 'barehand' without shocks, and that's 48VDC. If the phone rings, THAT HURTS - it's about 90V @ 20Hz.
I can agree fully with this, as I've done the same thing (and been hit by the same thing).
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
My son loves to 'chew' on our iphone cables : )
Yeah, because evidently the motherboard can't be designed to only give out as much power as is available, and to scale such power down if other components of the computer require more.
You won't be able to daisy chain laptops charging one another, but charging a phone (which won't be necessarily using 100W, that's just the maximum) on a laptop or a laptop on a desktop is not out of scope.
I've seen bad caps in a power supply raise the negative or positive DC rail to 60-ish volts above ground (basically 1/2 of the 120V AC input). If the parallel port was not properly grounded to the chassis, it would float at 60V above ground, but have very little current due to the high source impedance of the cap. A cheap voltmeter with 1000 ohms/volt with a FS reading of 100V would result in a current of 1 mA flowing, which (if the source impedance were 100,000 ohms) would make the reading on the meter half the actual open circuit value.
I had a high-end video card with a cable TV input do this - the shield of the cable input F connector (without anything connected to it) would float at 30-60V.
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
When I'm driving I often use gps navigation while streaming internet radio. I have my phone plugged into my car charger but the battery doesn't charge. The battery slowly drains because the phone can't get enough power from the wimpy USB Wattage.
The Official Site of 1337 Pwnage
being able to grab some juice from any friend may end the disaster that is forgetting your laptop power brick when on the road.
Eh, pretty much anywhere I work, there are people with MagSafe adaptors. So I could just get a MacBook and this would be my reality already.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
Quoting http://askville.amazon.com/dangerous-car-batteries/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=4217899 :
It is not dangerous to touch the positive terminal with your bare skin, because 12V is not a hazardous voltage.
So the answer is simply : no, it is not dangerous to touch my car battery (though the battery can be dangerous in a lot of other ways).
I learned something today :-)
And no, only an idiot charges his phone off of his laptop. The inefficiency of doing this is so ridiculous, words can't express the fail. So I'm showing you this instead.
Yeah, that's about the dumbest fucking shit ever. Just plug that shit into the wall.
Then again, I don't even own a fucking laptop because I'm not a tool.
If you ever want a phone call, strip telephone wire with your teeth. Someone will call, %100 guaranteed, and it will hurt. And whoever is in charge of making sure phone calls arrive when you strip wire with your teeth, does laugh. I swear the phone company has a "tooth" detection circuit and a list of friends to have call you when tooth contact is detected.
expect it to be universal over time. But currently in a single basic PC, aside of USB, you likely have PCI express bus, SATA bus, DVI and/or HDMI and/or DisplayPort bus, and maybe a Thunderbird (or Lightning Bolt if it really exists ?) in a new machine. So actually, even if USB 3.0 is probably universal enough to replace all of them for a regular user , the market do not offer a such option yet.
Waiting for USB 3.0 instead of SATA in raw hard disk and SSD connector.
Waiting for external graphic card with USB 3.0 connector and a way to make them directly drive the screen matrix (DisplayPort ?).
Waiting for a standardized internal card slot to replace the PCI express internal card.
Waiting for a standardized external card slot to replace the regretted Cardbus/PCMCIA external card.
Waiting for years entry level keyboards that integrate a USB hub and mouses without 2 meters long cable (wireless is not the best option everywhere and use battery).
Yes, there is many things that can be technically more nice, but someone need to have the willing and the power to change the product you find on the market.
Don't forget that the USB spec is currently 5 volts, so you'd need #12 AWG cables to carry the 20 amps required to deliver 100 watts...
Laptops and other mobile devices can't release a compliant port with this requirement. They don't draw 100W so they certainly can't deliver it. And if they can't deliver it, they can't guarantee that devices that connect to this spec will work with their ports. You'd drain the life out of your battery if they even tried.
If you aren't requiring devices to be able to put out 100W then you are creating a bad scenario where the same port can have different meanings and you are counting on the person plugging into it to know what they are doing. Counting on consumers knowing what they are doing is a bad idea.
If the phone rings, THAT HURTS - it's about 90V @ 20Hz.
Raise your hand if you've ever stripped phone cable with your teeth when it just happened to ring ... oh, just me then.
It's the kind of experience that lends to *never* forgetting the wire strippers again.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Ludicrous Speed has been deprecated in favour of Absurdicous Speed.
No need to 'flip' between the two. There are systems out there that can take *ANY* voltage between 260V-90V AC and turn it into an arbitrary DC voltage (5-24V being the common range). The trick is in how they build the inverter. Theoretically you could build a power supply that would take anything from 12VDC to 260VAC and output a clean 5V. It'd just be expensive. ;)
I don't read AC A human right
With the disclaimer that things change if you stick probes INTO your body, yes, you can touch both terminals of a fully charged car battery all day long without danger, even though it has enough wattage potential to kill you a couple thousand times, give you nasty burns, etc...
It's the whole A=V/R formula. 12V divided by the kiloohm your body typically presents, even when wet, isn't dangerous. 110-220VAC will shock you, but generally not lethally. At 600V you start needing to pay SERIOUS attention. Above that you're looking at specialized safety equipment.
I don't read AC A human right
my point was that its not all that hard to convert AC at X to Y voltage RMS to a single Z voltage that can be fed into a diode bridge converting it into Internationally Standard DC with a variance of Plus Minus pick your tolerances.
You are talking at the assembly level i am talking at the component level
a Nine Volt Battery is the same whether you buy it in Dollars Yen Euros Rubles or Whatever.
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For the moment they are still shipping with wall warts. Usually the wall warts have a type A socket on them rather than a captive cable so you can unplug the cable from the wall wart and plug it into your PC to use for data (and charging).
AIUI the goal is that once USB wall warts are everywhere (right now they are the norm on new phones but plenty of phone purchasers will still be buying their first device that uses one) that phone vendors will stop needing to ship them with new phones.
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If you ever want a phone call, strip telephone wire with your teeth. Someone will call, %100 guaranteed, and it will hurt.
Yup. I made this mistake once.
Once.
</johnnydangerously>
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
my point was that its not all that hard to convert AC at X to Y voltage RMS to a single Z voltage that can be fed into a diode bridge converting it into Internationally Standard DC with a variance of Plus Minus pick your tolerances.
Eh, you're correct. IT 'just' takes a transformer, or even just a voltage doubler/halver. I was just thinking that most of the power supplies you see today are 'universal' voltage, and reading up, they do the voltage conversion after the rectifier.
Then again, as you said it's relatively trivial to convert X Volts at Y Hz into A Volts at B Hz if you're willing to pony up the cash; at which point the specific implimentation depends mostly on the details/needs. Saw this recently at a aircraft electronics repair shop - they had outlets with 115V@400hz. Exceedingly well marked outlets...
I don't read AC A human right
having skimmed the spec defeating the cable type interlocks is trivial, just use a short "USB power delivery cable" and a coupler (yes couples aren't supposed to exist but we all know that they do). However there is also supposed to be protection that shuts down the power delivery system if excessive volt drop is detected.
Will be interesting to see how this pans out, still I don't think fire is a likely outcome, far more likely is that the cable will melt and either short the power feed (not so bad) or short the power wire to the data wire (that could do some serious damage).
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register