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Ask Slashdot: Preempting Sexual Harassment In the Workplace?
zwei2stein writes "My team of about 10 men (IT guys) is expecting a new colleague: a female one. It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse. We already have women in teams who can somehow handle this (and deliver apropriate verbal slaps). How would you deal with this? We talked about some simple, fun ways — anyone who [acts inappropriately] will have to wear an embarassing tie, etc. — instead of swear jar, having a sexual innuendo jar and even fairly harsh punishments (like people losing their bonuses for the month or their extra vaccation days). I'd like to figure out a solution that would be effective, not call much attention to itself, and not be quickly abandoned." What has your workplace done to create a good culture on this front? And what hasn't worked?
You need to understand the laws around sexual harassment, which you clearly do not.
...It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse...
So you work with a bunch of unprofessional animals?
You should *already* have a policy that makes such comments and such a work environment unacceptable.
Let them know that this type of childish behavior is not only unacceptable, but will result in being canned.
End of sentence.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
I am serious. From your post you are already over the line. A lawsuit is just one disgruntled employee away. Fix it and fast.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
I work in a small IT department with women (it's about 5 men, 3 women). We don't have any issues with harassment. But, then again, we are all over 21 years of age.
Is your team a bunch of 14YOs?
love is just extroverted narcissism
Get every member of the team to put a picture of the mother on their desks.
May the Maths Be with you!
I have a hard time believing the submitter has a serious question.
Hire mature adults who don't feel the need to marginalize women instead of manchildren?
is to hire people whom you can trust to behave like adults. Seems like you have no trust in your team if you need to resort to petty punishments like these, which is a bigger problem.
Have whoever is in charge tell them to grow the fuck up and act like goddamn professionals, or they'll be up for disciplinary. Any kind of "jokey" punishment will sound like a slap on the wrist if the staff member feels genuinely insulted or belittled.
If you have so little confidence in your crew, why are they still working for you?
Generally speaking, most professional men above the age of 20 that are managed properly will behave properly. The fact that you feel your crew will not behave properly speaks volumes about your management.
This little set of "exercises" you have planned seems like a witch hunt - something you do when you need a scapegoat. I'm glad I don't work with you.
So the guy named "Tastecicles" is defending sexual harassment. Classy.
This reminds me of that one scene in the trailer for the new movie coming out "Pitch Perfect". Some girl is going to try out for this singing group and she introduces herself as "Fat Amy". The other girls snigger at this and ask her "You call yourself Fat Amy?" To this, Fat Amy replies, "Yeah, so bitches like you don't do it behind my back."
"We talked about some simple, fun ways — anyone who [acts inappropriately] will have to wear an embarassing tie, etc. — instead of swear jar, having a sexual innuendo jar and even fairly harsh punishments (like people losing their bonuses for the month or their extra vaccation days)"
Any acts which would result in these embarrassments are terminal offenses. Then on top of these, these acts could be considered terminal harassment themselves.
You have serious problems if your polices are already unenforceable.
We had none of this garbage. None. I knew I didn't even have to say a word to my guys...why? Because we're all adults and professionals and we know better than to do that shit.
Listen, it's 2012 and almost every single one of your employees has been through some sort of mandatory sexual harassment training at some point in their careers. If you have someone who hasn't (recent college grad with no other work history or an intern or something) pull them aside and handle it.
If this is an issue w/your staff, you should make some other changes, not just the woman you brought on board.
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks...
What the hell?
Are you all twelve or are some of you thirteen yet?
Get off my lawn and take your adolescent misogyny with you!
XKCD:Xeric Knowledge Comically Dispen
We had a very elegant solution.
We relocated the ladies to the kitchen and made sure they were gone by the time the men arrived to pick up their sandwhiches. That way our youthful male interns had to suffer no visual undressing by the old hags.
This does not sound like a good idea to me. It makes it seem like some kind of American college comedy film, where you wink and tsk tsk the naughty fratboys for their inevitable innuendos and they smirk and promise to behave better.
How about just making it clear to any employees that they're expected to act professionally with their colleagues of any race/gender/age/whatever?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Our small office is actually almost half female these days. Three of us are techs, two are admins. We have a comfortable relationship with the guys because we're all geeks, and our geekiness trumps any awkwardness from male/female interactions. Light teasing is permitted, but personal relationship discussions are off limits. We generally try to keep all our jokes strictly to IT, nerdliness, and our clients' baffling behavior. We all also wear the same uniform, so the only personal expression the ladies get is earrings and nail polish. (No skirts or heels allowed.) This dress code prevents a lot of harassment, I think. (I know I wouldn't want to have to drag patch cables across the floor in a skirt...)
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
If you have employees I'm really surprised this has never come up until you hired a female. Your company has, or the guys working there have, no contact with females at all? Search on line for HR material and get it out quickly so you don't end up in court, or having to fire 10 guys for hooting at the new coworker. Search for Business Ethics training materials, you will come up with quite a bit.
Let this be a lesson also. If you own a business, there should be policies and statements in place as quickly as possible for all of these types of common legal issues. "No pr0n at work", "don't print pr0n" on your printers, equality in the work place, 0 tolerance for discrimination, etc.. etc... Even a small business with 1-2 people should have this.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
The tie and "swear jar" are fun ideas, but sexual harassment lawsuits are no laughing matter. Careers have been ruined in both directions and companies a lot in both legal expenses as well as reputability. I would suggest telling those "10 guys" to grow up or gtfo.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
This is all you need to know about sexual harassment and how to prevent it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY
Similes are like metaphors
Yes, but this goes both ways. If an employee finds sexually orientated office banter offensive then you have to absolutely snip it in the bud, that's the thing lawsuits are made of. On the other hand, it's important that there's a friendly atmosphere where people aren't treading on egg shells. Write out a policy document, get everybody to sign it, and make sure every single person in the workplace knows who to go to if they have any problems. I've seen plenty of cases where a five minute chat sorted out a misunderstanding or somebody overstepping the line slightly. If people step beyond the boundaries of the law / your policy (whichever is the most restrictive of the two) then make sure you have a clearly defined disciplinary process in place going from an informal warning to immediate dismissal, and stick to it rigorously.
Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
Why doesn't your company already have policies in place on this, and why don't you hire employees who know how to act like adults?
What are you trying to imply, AC? Tastecicles is very classy.
P.S. I heard adult film producer's wife has big tits!
sincerely, :D
mister_playboy
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
1. Create a policy, in writing, about what is and what is not acceptable behavior in the workplace when it comes to sexual harassment.
2. If somebody violates that policy, reprimand them privately at first, and then publicly if they still don't get it. And keep a record of doing that.
3. If somebody continues to violate the policy, fire them.
If you're not willing to fire people to make a non-harassing culture happen, then you aren't really serious about putting a stop to it. And these are exactly the kind of steps you need to have taken if your company gets sued over your guys' behavior.
Some other things you can do:
1. Lead by example. Treat her like a professional, because that's what she is. Treat your guys the same way if you aren't already, and make it clear that you expect them to act the same way. When you're working, you're working, not hanging out with your buddies at the bar.
2. Nip it in the bud. Don't wait for the second comment, or there will be a third.
3. Make it clear that you're putting a stop to it because if you don't, your boss will (They should back you up on this, if they don't give up, it's a lost cause)
4. Tell 'em (truthfully) you may be able to loosen things up if things go well at first. If your new employee makes it totally clear that she's fine with this sort of thing, then you can let the guys go with it.
IANAL, TINLA, etc.
I am officially gone from
And talk to a lawyer specializing in employment law regarding remedies and responses to inappropriate actions. Messing with someone's vacation days may be illegal. You don't want your remedies creating more opportunities to get sued.
Your "simple, fun ways" are going to get you into hot water. By doing that, you're basically encouraging such behavior by turning something from inappropriate behavior to behavior that's okay as long as you're willing to wear a funny tie.
You talk about your team, so I assume you're in a larger organization. That organization most likely has some HR representation, so I suggest you talk to them about what the baseline rules and laws are. I'm surprised your company hasn't already had some sort of mandatory training (training which I tend to think is just relaying common sense, but based on your write up, I'm not sure in your team's case).
For the grey areas not covered by those rules, why don't you go discuss with the other women you mention to learn their experiences? Double entendres and the like are not necessarily harassment/hostile work environment, but it depends on how they're played. If they're all being directed at the female team member, then yeah, you're probably asking for trouble.
In Is There Anything Good About Men?, Roy F. Baumeister writes
You are proposing frat boy solutions to a frat boy problem.
It's easy: dont turn it into a frat boy game. Just say once, seriously, before the new employee starts: "I noticed the innuendo around here. It's not funny. Do it once, get a warning. Do it twice, get fired."
And then actually do that.
Sexual harassment isn't funny. Of course the frat boys will say it's just a little fun, no harm intended. Thats the problem.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Fired them. (No tolerance policy.)
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
You're right Tastecicles you ball loving sex-gimp. As you enjoy the taste of hairy man plums in your mouth, I am sure a mature human being yourself is well able to mentally handle the abuses of the many men who employ your services each day, as well as the laughter of the countless women who giggle in unison at the absurdity of your unmanly existence.
Now, read out that comment to yourself eight times a day for next six weeks and then come back to us about "crying fucking mental rape".
May the Maths Be with you!
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse.
Hostile Work Environment:
"Hostile work environment harassment occurs when unwelcome comments or conduct based on sex, race or other legally protected characteristics unreasonably interferes with an employee’s work performance or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive work environment. Anyone in the workplace might commit this type of harassment – a management official, co-worker, or non-employee, such as a contractor, vendor or guest. The victim can be anyone affected by the conduct, not just the individual at whom the offensive conduct is directed.
Examples of actions that may create sexual hostile environment harassment include:
- Leering, i.e., staring in a sexually suggestive manner
- Making offensive remarks about looks, clothing, body parts
- Touching in a way that may make an employee feel uncomfortable, such as patting, pinching or intentional brushing against another’s body
- Telling sexual or lewd jokes, hanging sexual posters, making sexual gestures, etc.
- Sending, forwarding or soliciting sexually suggestive letters, notes, emails, or images"
Somewhere, a labor law attorney is locking and loading his briefcase... :-)
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
A female colleague just joined our team a few months back (previously all male). Know what we did to prepare? Nothing. Because we are all adults and knowwhat's appropriate in the workplace. The innuendo didn't exist before she joined and it sure as hell didn't start after.
You want to prevent it? Don't fucking do it, and don't accept it when anyone else does. Certainly don't treat it like a game or accept that it is inevitable.
Companies like yours are the ones that give the media ammunition when they want to dig up crap about gender discrimination in the IT/IS world.
tl;dr -you're all big boys now and should damn well know what's acceptable behavior.
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse.
As a male, I would not want to work with those people. Your company has a personnel problem well beyond what you think it is.
I guess my advice is to avoid litigious people at all costs. You can sue for anything these days. You can't tell a joke, give a high five or even kiss your wife on the cheek (someone i worked with actually invoked sexual harassment for this) without pissing someone off. I say: let these people work elsewhere. I like dropping the f-bomb and being sexist & crude, as do my peers. We band together in a mutual agreement not to spoil the freedom for everyone.
IAAL, and I'm imagining the deposition in a hypothetical (inevitable?) sexual harassment suit. Q: Were you, as a supervisor, aware of any sexual harassment at the workplace? A: No. Q: Did you have a "sexual harassment jar"? A: Yes. Q: And what was the purpose of the sexual harassment jar? A: To curb employee sexual harassment. Every time someone said something that could be sexual or suggestive, they'd have to put a dollar in the jar. Q: And how much money was eventually contributed to the jar? A: The last time I cleaned it out, it had $562. Q: So let me ask you again, were you aware of any sexual harassment at the workplace?
If I were the manager of your department I would gather everyone together in a room and close the door. I would let the team know that we will be having a new team member joining us on Monday and that it's a female. I would carefully explain the concept of sexual harassment to them and the serious implications that it carries. Then I would remind them that this is not some fucking college frat house, this is a place of work. There will be zero, and I mean zero, tolerance for harassment of any kind - sexual or otherwise. If I find out about it I will have no choice but to report it to HR - otherwise MY ass is on the line for not reporting it. The first offense will get you a written warning. Second offense, your ass is out the door. This isn't baseball, you don't get three strikes in this game. Anyone that doesn't feel that they can abide by those rules are free to tender their resignation effective immediately. This is serious shit - do NOT fuck with me on this. Any questions? Good :-)
I sincerely hope you neither have, nor ever will have, a daughter.
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...It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse...
So you work with a bunch of unprofessional animals?
You should *already* have a policy that makes such comments and such a work environment unacceptable.
Let them know that this type of childish behavior is not only unacceptable, but will result in being canned.
End of sentence.
This man's coworkers probably just think they're having good clean fun and that they're "keeping it real" in the face of what they feel to be phony soul-tarnishing political correctness. However, it's hard to really walk in another's shoes sometimes. Points of view are intellectually challenging. (Which is why scientists use the mirror test as a marker of sentience.)
One person's idea of "good clean fun" isn't necessarily the same as another person's. It sounds like there's a group there who has been enjoying the camaraderie and other benefits of a tight-knit "workplace culture." of their own. As the workforce at your company gets larger, the likelihood of everyone new liking all aspects of the original group's "culture" are going to diminish. So either you're going to have to impose the same "culture" on all new employees or this group "culture" is going to have to change.
Again, it's a point of view thing, so it's going to be very hard to convey what it truly means to be on the other side of their "ribbing." A good professional trainer might be in order. (But a bad trainer is likely to only make things worse.) Change also needs to be backed up by authority. It's probably only going to work at all smoothly with buy-in from the social leaders of that group.
It's what normal, mature human beings do - they handle the situation themselves instead of crying fucking mental rape.
I beg to differ.
In my team I have 12 different nationalities with 12 different cultures. As of now, we have two females in our team. On our office floor we have many more females, and many, many more nationalities with as many different cultures. This is important, because what's seen as relatively normal in one culture, can be seen as sexual harassment in the other. For example, what person A means as a compliment, can be received by person B as harassment. ("wow, your behind looks great in that dress": compliment or harassment?)
Obviously, the "visiting" culture should adhere to the local one, but it does not hurt to train the employees in doing so. At my last two employers (two different countries, including California*), I have received "respectful workplace training", aimed at eliminating sexual harassment and discrimination. For me, this has been very useful, not because I'm a gorilla-type male chauvinist pig, but because it was an eye-opener to learn about the sensitivities that vary between cultures and countries.
A real world example: most of us will remember Jeff Dunham's "Silence I kill you". I was mimicking this play in the office a couple of years ago. This was outside of the U.S., but I had American colleagues present. One of them had not seen the show, and was offended. This also happened to be a female, and by the end of the afternoon, my manager and the local HR were involved, and I had to talk to a crying co-worker who was really, really offended. And I had no clue why.
Moral of the story: what user1 perceives as "It's what normal, mature human beings do" is offensive to user2. At work, everyone should feel save and respected, including that pretty girl who just got hired because of her two special talents (in your opinion, of course).
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
Really...why should a group/team that has been working for ages, all of a sudden have to stop and change and stifle themselves just because a woman is joining the group?
Unfortunately, these days...legal reasons are the bottom line, which is sad. I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job. Even in a bunch of just guys....individual guys get razzed and all, that's just normal. And yet...no one get sued, and work gets done...etc.
If a guy joins a group of previously all women, do they have to stifle themselves, go to mixed workplace training, etc? And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If women can't handle being hit on and joked about by men then they shouldn't be in the workplace to begin with.
Wow. Just wow.
This isn't the local downtown meatmarket nightclub we're talking about. It's a professional working environment. You simply don't have one group of employees targeting another group of employees just because of their sex (or colour, beliefs, etc).
Some people here seem to be living in the 1950s. Amazing.
In my old team we had things get wildly out of hand and HRLegal got involved. The entire team suffered because of a manager who didn't just step up and handle it like a problem between adults.
In my current team I am at/near the top of the social pecking order and have a very good reputation for looking out for juniors in the lab (going to bat w/ management for them but not telling who I'm batting for, etc.) and a good reputation with management for telling things as they are and having people trust me. This (amazingly to me) has gotten me some measure of respect from both sides, even when things get heated (we had a reorg a while back that turned very sour).
We had a repeat incident that was very nearly the same as what happened in my old group, but I told my manager what was happening, and asked him to give me a shot at handling it. I pulled the two into a conference room (based on the authority of the managers e-mail to them both) and dressed them both down, her for wearing clothes that are against the dress code and sure to attract attention, and him for utterly failing to be a gentleman that when a girl wears enticing clothes and lets you know it isn't you she wants it's time to back off. I reminded both of them that they are adults and to act it, and that neither was guiltless in the whole mess. Problem solved. Year and a half later, still no issues; she's dressed at least a little closer to the dress code, and he's polite, but non pursuing to her.
I don't think informal warning straight to dismissal is the right policy, there should be two more steps in between: formal warning && second warning + suspension.
Just realized I mis-parsed that part of your post, but there's the two steps I'd put there.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Formal training is vital legally but doesn't always reach people.
Making an example of someone is something you should be ready to do. Sounds like you'll need to. Do it early.
Brainstorming about preventive measures to *supplement* your policy: start memes like "nerds don't bully nerds" or "would you say that to your sister?". Hire an outspoken victim that nerds can identify with to talk (not lecture) about what the impact is.
"My team of about 10 white men (white IT guys) is expecting a new colleague: a black one. It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, racist jokes and insults with huge potential of getting worse. We already have blacks in teams who can somehow handle this (and deliver apropriate verbal slaps). How would you deal with this? We talked about some simple, fun ways — anyone who [acts inappropriately] will have to wear an embarassing tie, etc. — instead of swear jar, having a racist-remark jar and even fairly harsh punishments (like people losing their bonuses for the month or their extra vaccation days). I'd like to figure out a solution that would be effective, not call much attention to itself, and not be quickly abandoned."
This kind of work environment is completely unacceptable in the 21st century.
The main problem I see is the general attitude. Sexual harassment should not be treated as a joke. There are legal liabilities here. Treat any new member with respect and everyone will be fine. No need to make this some sort of game.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
You are already harassing the women on your team. And something about the new hire is "special," so you think she can't "cut" the crap you boys are already dishing out. The job market is tight, and you idiots are already living on borrowed time. I'd grow up fast and learn to act like a professional and not a bunch of adolescent fools. I'm surprised HR/management hasn't already caught on to your antics and cracked the whip on your silly asses. The women shouldn't have to be slapping you down. Do you really think that they enjoy expending the extra energy it takes to fend off and/or cope with your crap?
Which one sounds more like childish whining: Not wanting to have people talk shit at you all day? Or not wanting to have to shut your mouth and stop talking shit?
When someone wants you to stop talking in the theater, is it they who are the jerk because they can't just deal with it?
People: if you can't stop yourself from saying sexually harassing things, you've got some serious problems. If you whine that you are somehow being oppressed because you can't say stupid shit to whoever you want, you're a whiney baby.
Most of us are much better than this, of course, but there's always a few idiots in these discussions that still don't get it. Thanks, Tastecicles, for bringing the stupid.
When she comes in the door, slap her on the ass, call her sexy, and ask her if she gives free handjobs. You will be sued the next day for sexual harassment, fired from your job, and they will get a new manager in there who understands letting this happen in the workplace is not tolerated, and you were the example.
It's what normal, mature human beings do - they handle the situation themselves instead of crying fucking mental rape.
What if there's a complete idiot doing it, somebody who just doesn't know when to stop?
At some point the rest of the team has to step in and say "enough". It's what normal, mature human beings do.
Chimps, too, BTW. When one chimp in a group crosses the line with his bullying the others often stand up for the victim.
No sig today...
Says the guy who's obviously never been in the minority position in an uncomfortable environment.
I've always felt like I had a reasonable understanding of what it might feel like to be in such a minority position, at least in an intellectual sense, but it wasn't until I worked in a fairly large team that was >60% Indian and 20% Chinese (myself being white) that I truly understood it. So unless you've "walked a mile in her shoes", you're in no position to criticise a woman who feels uncomfortable in a group of men who act like crude sexist jerks (while claiming not to be). I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance PC policies, but I do strongly believe in having respect for others, and if that means no sexual innuendo or whatever, I'm fine with that.
And note that in the OP's case, it may very well be that the woman that joins the group is perfectly comfortable in that environment, but that's a decision she gets to make, like it or not. Where I work now, there are women who can dish it out just as well as the guys (and seem to enjoy doing so), but we're all aware of what others are comfortable with. It's a natural part of simply being respectful.
Actually, any manager that is allowing this kind of behavior to occur is asking for trouble, no matter what the makeup of the group is. Many years ago I worked for a smallish all-male consulting company that allowed a LOT of sexually unprofessional behavior to occur. We're talking "Playboys in the magazine rack in the lunchroom" kind of unprofessional behavior. Several of us weren't thrilled about it, but there really wasn't a lot of complaining.
One of the male software engineers left the company after about a year. Several weeks later, the company was hit by a lawsuit. Turned out that he was gay (nobody had ANY clue) and found the workplace to be sexually hostile. The guy walked away with a healthy settlement, both managers were fired, two other employees were fired along with them, and the work atmosphere went down the tubes.
Sexual discrimination suits don't require there to be a gender difference, and even an employee who seems OK with sexualized behavior can later sue over it if they change their mind (or simply want to make a few bucks). Only a complete moron would allow this kind of behavior in their company.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job.
Actually, all adults should be able to do their job without having to have a bit of thick skin concerning actions from their coworkers.
Yes, but this goes both ways. If an employee finds sexually orientated office banter offensive then you have to absolutely snip(sic) it in the bud
OTOH having meetings to establish a policy before anything actually happens is a bit of an insult to the people already working there. You're basically saying you think they're idiots.
Give them a chance ... maybe nothing will happen.
If something happens, act immediately to nip it in the bud.
No sig today...
Unfortunately, these days...legal reasons are the bottom line, which is sad. I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job. Even in a bunch of just guys....individual guys get razzed and all, that's just normal. And yet...no one get sued, and work gets done...etc.
Getting razzed is fine. Having comments made about your sexuality when they haven't been invited is absolutely unacceptable. Besides gender issues, many people prefer to keep their sexuality private. I can think of hundreds of reasons ranging from closeted non-standard sexual orientations to religious conviction, not to mention the fact that some people are there to do a job, not to be propositioned or pick up a hookup for the night.
Basically, I prefer to keep my sexuality in the bedroom (so to speak), and I demand that everybody stay out of my bedroom unless invited, and I have only invited one person. I don't think that this privacy is too much to ask, and I do think that invading it in this way is intolerably disrespectful.
And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
I don't know what culture you are a part of that tolerates this, but I am a married man, and no, I would not appreciate double entendre statements addressed to me. I do take my wedding vows seriously as they are the foundation of my children's whole world and existence, and I would never joke or permit someone to joke about the idea of me being sexual with someone besides my wife. Maybe that is all just a joke to you. But in my workplace, men don't talk to women like that, women don't talk to men like that. And we are in "good old boy" east Texas, yet somehow we manage to behave like grownups who are here to do a job, not to get laid.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
I notice a lot of US centric answers, including references to "sexual harassment training". The submitter's profile page indicates he's located in the Czech Republic.
As another European, I can say that the only time I've heard of "sexual harassment training" (interesting name, btw - does it train you to be better at it?) is in slashdot posts, by Americans, on the topic. While sexual harassment laws exist here, they obviously don't work the same way, or are enforced with the same rigour on this side of the pond.
Now, I do agree with the general advice, which is essentially grow the fuck up, but assuming American law and corporate procedures when giving advice is probably not very helpful.
May we live long and die out
Normal, mature human beings don't create the situation in the first place.
Let's discuss an example from one of my previous workplaces. A security guard blocked a woman's car in in the parking lot and started saying over and over "Would your husband mind?". The company was a military contractor and the guard had a gun on his hip. Perhaps you have some ideas in mind about how she should have handled the situation herself? Calling the police isn't handling it herself.
If a guy joins a group of previously all women, do they have to stifle themselves, go to mixed workplace training, etc? And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
Well, imagine this if you would: Pretend that instead of going into a heavily male profession like IT, you'd gone into a heavily female profession, nursing. You go out, get a job, move to a new town, you show up for your first day of work and what you hear all day from other nurses is comments not about nursing but about the apparant size of your dick and your presumed sex life or lack thereof. And your ugly hag of a boss is deciding whether you'll be promoted or not based on how nicely you smile when she looks you up and down with clear sexual intent (or in more extreme cases whether you agree to sleep with her).
Think about how you'd really truly react in that kind of scenario, and you might understand the problem.
I am officially gone from
You must read this article. What I Learned At Dartmouth. It's way too long, but I'll quote the beginning. It is impossible to comment intelligently on this article without reading this link to the full. Rebut it, if you can.
"One of the freshmenâ"or âoefirst yearsâ, as they were beginning to be knownâ"was accused by another first year of sexual assault and harassment. In the hot-house political environment at the timeâ"product of the Thomas/Hill hearings, which revolved around workplace sexual harassmentâ"these were serious allegations."
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Not in my experience...
I've worked in many different workplaces. Some of them range from downright awful (comments that made *me* uncomfortable to just be hearing them), to respectful face-to-face but not so much in private.
It's not just the face-to-face contact, most people can at least manage that. It's the little side conversations that eventually get overheard by the wrong person at the wrong time. In many jobs I've overheard colleagues having conversations that - while between the two of them - were still very NSFW. Knowing your audience is important. Knowing your environment is equally important.
Lay it down flat. It's not cool to comment about Alice's bodily parts and/or personal-life to her face, nor to your friend/co-worker Bob, nor anywhere in the workplace. Violating this is a liability to the company, will go to HR, and may eventually lead to dismissal.
Your point is well founded, but I find it a bit disturbing. The reason you shouldn't let this happen should not be the fear of a lawsuit, but the welfare of your employees. They are human beings, and if you drive them all the way to sue you, it probably means you've made them suffer along the road, which is much worse than a "nice settlement".
Of course, there is probably the odd person not really suffering and still suing just for money, but if there's ground for a lawsuit there's probably something morally wrong behind the scene.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Ive worked in a NOC where we had 1 girl for the longest. She was considered "one of the guys." i'm openly gay and was treated as "one of the guys" the environment has a built in level of tolerance due to age group. If something hit too close a simple "hey too far" handle the situation. We all respected each others boundaries but also there was plenty of sexual banter of all types. Later when we got another female, due to respect to age and presentation, we toned it down but even after a while she was "one of the guys" sometimes the worse one (in a funny way). Everybody need to respect boundaries. And to also speak up to the group first before charging down to HR. I feel when "group speak-up" is leveraged it leads to a better team. Just my observation...
some people are a "glass half empty" some are "glass half full" i'm a "there is something in the glass be happy" person
.... it really sucks and sets tension in the air that just never seems to go away.
I worked for a popular retail store during my young adult years (mid-20s) and had a colleague blatantly sexually harass me. My dress was business attire with skirts that were two inches below the knees, and was strictly adhered to, it was not how I dressed. He even went so far as to put something on a display computer that a customer who tested a print file was shocked and dismayed at what he picked up from the printer and handed to me. I was mortified and so embarrassed. I was humiliated in front of a potential customer all because this guy thought his actions were funny or cute or something like that. I promptly demanded him to "get his ass over to the machine and remove the information or I would re-format the hard-drive and have him explain it to management." That and several other incidents finally prompted me to speak up. When I noticed that one of our security officers was also a Part-time police officer, I asked him for advice. He stated that I could indeed press charges, but it would be best if I addressed the issue with Management. I did, we were both interviewed, I was reprimanded for swearing and he got a slap on the wrist. I felt like my concerns were ignored. I had proof in my hands and was basically told, tough crap kiddo.
In the end, he was not fired, and we were never scheduled on the same shift. Frankly, I was livid, and I never felt comfortable there. Ever since then I am very wary about what I say that might elicit some sort of unwanted response. I have worked with teams that are consistently made up of a 90% to 10% male to female ratio in all of my different jobs, Often I am the only female on the technical team. I have never treated any other male colleague as though he was that first guy. And I've been lucky so far that there has never been a situation to deal with like the first one I described. I am no prude, I can keep up with the rest of my male colleagues jokes and even keep them in check.
But the biggest thing to take from all this is that once there is clear and definitive sexual harassment that makes the recipient feel uncomfortable, nothing short of a termination will make the recipient feel safe. It's harsh, but so is the feeling that comes from being harassed.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
Well, imagine this if you would: Pretend that instead of going into a heavily male profession like IT, you'd gone into a heavily female profession, nursing. You go out, get a job, move to a new town, you show up for your first day of work and what you hear all day from other nurses is comments not about nursing but about the apparant size of your dick and your presumed sex life or lack thereof. And your ugly hag of a boss is deciding whether you'll be promoted or not based on how nicely you smile when she looks you up and down with clear sexual intent (or in more extreme cases whether you agree to sleep with her).
Think about how you'd really truly react in that kind of scenario, and you might understand the problem.
You're talking about actual harassment. I'm betting submitter is talking about "That's what she said" jokes a la The Office.
While it is absolutely acceptable to ensure all team members conform to the dress code, it is inappropriate to dress down a woman for "wearing enticing clothing" in the context of a male coworker's sexual advances. The infraction the female team member committed was against the lab dress code, which is not there to ensure the correct behavior of the male team members. In administrating the dispute this way, you have sent the message to the female team member that the dress code is there explicitly to marshall her sexuality: that for her, and not for a male team member, not following the dress code carries an extra consequence of inviting sexual harassment. And to the male team member, you have sent the message that although his behavior is ultimately against the rules, it is not unexpected and at least some of the blame lies with the person he was harassing.
Perhaps as you say, neither was guiltless. However it is your responsibility to ensure that you administrate all of the lab policy properly, and claiming that a dress code exists to prevent men from being "enticed" by female coworkers is a form of harassment in an of itself. I myself work in a chemistry lab where a female labmate is in the habit of wearing revealing clothing. This is of course, against the dress code. However it is against the dress code because it is unsafe to expose undue amounts of skin in an active chemical laboratory, and second because it is unprofessional. Our PI has admonished her publicy because of this, and has always indicated that it is a question of safety. It would be extremely inappropriate for him to administer a public reprimand for her clothing being "sexy" or anything to that effect. If any reprimand is adminstered at all about the clothing being distracting, it should be administered out of view of the rest of the lab to indicate that the disciplinary infraction is one against a laboratory policy, not one that the lab as a whole has the right to administer.
While the female team member is unquestionably to blame for not following the dress code, it is not correct to say she is to blame for an episode of sexual harassment. And while it appears your female team member found no issue with it, I find it hard to believe that anyone, when bringing a sexual harassment complaint against a coworker, would not be made extremely uncomfortable being hauled in front of their harasser, and admonished for wearing "enticing" clothing, even if the harasser was later administered a comparable reprimand (Which does not even seem to be the case here. You made clear that the female team member was in violation of a lab policy, which you implied was designed to protect her male coworkers and not her, and had committed a professional infraction. The male team member, however, was admonished for a personal infraction, i.e. "failure to be a gentleman." Not following the dress code is breaking a rule, but sexually harassing a coworker is equated with forgetting to hold the door or splitting the check at dinner).
Sad isn't it. It's the absolute truth and yet it sounds weird to people these days.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Is the abuse of power by a person in a position of power, to try to obtain sexual favors. Making a comment about a co-workers boobs in NOT harassment. Slapping a co-worker's ass is NOT harassment (but it may be assault). However a boss telling an employee that he/she will be denied advancement unless he/she performs some sort of sex act IS sexual harassment. But like many other words such as "genocide" and "terrorist", "harassment" has been bastardized to include any sexual behavior between anyone if one of the parties doesn't consent (or later changes their mind about consenting).
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I've always felt like I had a reasonable understanding of what it might feel like to be in such a minority position, at least in an intellectual sense, but it wasn't until I worked in a fairly large team that was >60% Indian and 20% Chinese (myself being white) that I truly understood it. So unless you've "walked a mile in her shoes", you're in no position to criticise a woman who feels uncomfortable in a group of men who act like crude sexist jerks (while claiming not to be). I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance PC policies, but I do strongly believe in having respect for others, and if that means no sexual innuendo or whatever, I'm fine with that.
Ok, sure, that's fine and good. But did you suffer many tens of thousands (maybe even millions) of dollars in damages from that experience? I think not. Did your then-coworkers deserve a criminal record and getting dragged to court and put through the legal wringer and having their lives ruined because of those cultural gaps? Again, I doubt that seriously.
I'm sorry but women need to choose one and only one option: be protected like a child or some kind of delicate little flower, or be treated as an equal and expected to tolerate anything a man is expected to deal with. They are mutually exclusive by their very nature.
Turned out that he was gay (nobody had ANY clue) and found the workplace to be sexually hostile.
Under the circumstances that you described (and many other "guys just being guys" situations), I am pretty sure that anyone, of any gender or sexual orientation, could have won a lawsuit.
It isn't about who might be offended. It is about following well understood and easily complied with standards that protect everyone.
I'm betting submitter is talking about "That's what she said" jokes a la The Office.
That's what he, loser of a sexual harassment judgement, said.
The Office is funny because the characters are clearly caricatures of badly behaving people.
So you are already assuming everyone guilty?
Seriously, if you would institute any of the measures you mentioned on me, I would consider resigning.
But apparently, you have an existing problem. I find it hard to believe that everyone on your team is problematic, so why don't you, you know, focus on the actual problem, the people who are an issue?
I am really, really sick and tired of this pre-assumption that all men are chauvinist pigs.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Same reasoning can be applied to racial discrimination. There is, in fact, a market for discrimination, however it externalizes its costs, and law suits represent how we tax that externalization.
Fugue for Aaron Swartz
True.
Not from Texas. Just visited. Some of the politest people I've met.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Because of this.
"... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful,
Of course he said something. I said something. Several other employees said something. There were a number of us who weren't exactly thrilled to work in an office that often resembled a frathouse more than a place of business. Nobody said anything about suing or threatened to call in the EEOC, but management clearly understood that there were people who were less than happy with the situation. They chose to ignore the fact that some of their employees didn't like the behavior, and they paid the price for their choice. A managers job is to manage, which means preventing this sort of situation. When they failed to intervene, they demonstrated their inability to perform the job. When the other two "instigating" employees chose to bring Playboys to work, email hardcore porn around the office, and insult anyone who asked not to see it (actually calling us "whiners" in one email), they demonstrated an ongoing disrespect for their fellow employees.
They didn't lose their jobs because of "words". They lost their jobs because they couldn't be professionals. If you can't behave like a mature adult, don't get pissed off when people stop treating you like one.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
The reason you shouldn't let this happen should not be the fear of a lawsuit, but the welfare of your employees.
100% correct - companies should do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because they might get sued for not doing the right thing.
Unfortunately, considering that most corporations would be considered sociopaths were they to be psychoanalyzed, the possibility that they will do the right thing because it's the right thing is slim-to-none; hence, fear of legal (or rather, financial) repercussion is about the only way to get their attention.
It's sad and stupid, but thus is the world we inhabit.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
It's not about off-the-cuff remarks. Contrary to what popular (right-wing) culture wants to tell you, not every woman is a raging man-hating bitch for not wanting a consistent stream of sexist remarks directed at her.
Mature women can handle the occasional off-the-cuff remark as long as there is no pattern of consistent misogyny. If you want to see what such a pattern looks like, try reading this discussion, or any Slashdot discussion that touches on feminism, at -1.
Mart
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
True. Not from Texas. Just visited. Some of the politest people I've met.
Yea, heavily armed populaces trend that way.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I think that also illustrates why there is so much push back from people. Apparently, it worked out OK, but in some organizations it would mean you would lose your job or at least have your career go on the slow track because someone got offended to tears by the thought that someone else might have been offended (and apparently that someone else was NOT offended, no less).
Being in that sort of situation is in itself a hostile work environment. It can be a delicate balance, at some point being too easily offended becomes offensive!
While it is absolutely acceptable to ensure all team members conform to the dress code, it is inappropriate to dress down a woman for "wearing enticing clothing" in the context of a male coworker's sexual advances. The infraction the female team member committed was against the lab dress code, which is not there to ensure the correct behavior of the male team members.
No, and that's an extremely stupid way of viewing things. What this manager did was quite correct (and in case you missed it, it also fixed the problem). There's absolutely no difference in dressing down a girl for wearing clothes that put everything her mother gave her on display and dressing down a guy for making sexual advances toward her (regardless of what she's wearing). You say he's "sent a message" to a female team member that the dress code is there to marshall her sexuality - when actually, he's just trying to keep her from sending a message that says "fuck me" to everything within 50 miles that has a penis (and maybe a lot of things that don't).
Would you have a problem with a man wearing clothes that clearly display the outline of his erect penis? Would you have a problem with a dress code that disallowed that, or would you consider that "marshalling his sexuality?" Strangely, I suspect you would have no problem with a girl making an explicit verbal overture to one of her male co-workers (she's just excersizing her sexual freedom, right?), and yet, how is any of that any different than when the genders are reversed?
My point is that there's a double-standard being held here, by both sides, and neither is right. The workplace isn't the place for sexual advances by either sex, and both sexes need to have more respect for the others' sexuality. If a girl's a prude, guys (and girls) ought to respect that, and if somebody wants to bang the shit out of everything in sight, don't make it obvious at work.
Seems like common sense to me.
Deja Moo: The distinct feeling that you've heard this bull before.
"But your Honor, I didn't mean to offend her when I said she had nice tits! Hell, it was supposed to be a compliment!"
The intent there is clear from the words used. However, a bawdy joke in which no specific person is referenced isn't the same.
Its called Political Correctness...and it is taking the fun out of everything. You combine that with such a litigious society...and the last thing you have to fear after that.....is anything ever being said again.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
The guy is putting the responsibility for his marriage on his kids. As in "I stay married because I have kids". Not "because I love my wife", not "because I made a commitment", but "because I have kids".
Notwithstanding the question of whether, if the marriage turns sour, it's better for the kids if the parents go find happiness somewhere else, putting the whole onus of justifying one's marriage with "it's better for the kids" is one hell of an external locus of control.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
You need to stop thinking that sexual harassment is exclusively something that men do to women, or at some future point another man will drag you into court because he didn't appreciate the atmosphere of sexual innuendo that you promoted at work, and he will win.
Yes I would. Welcome to the live of a man. Men have to deal with it all their lives and we manage it quite well. Try to be offended when children at school decide to give you an offensive nickname and see how the results go for you.
The best way to deal with it is to ignore and prove your worth with results. Bickering is childish and by doing that you prove to be as much unprofessional as the one you are complaining about.
Added to some good ideas, above, you might try the following:
Tell each male employee that they shouldn't say/do anything to a female co-worker that they wouldn't say/do to their sister.
If you wouldn't proposition/pinch/insinuate/whatever toward your sister (and you better not...) then you shouldn't do so toward a female co-worker. This won't work with all male employees (i.e. those without sisters, or with dirty-mouthed family relationships), but it should provide a decent "baseline" for some of them--and give some good hints to those who are truly clueless about how not to be a jerk toward female co-workers.
Note that this isn't a complete solution, by any means; it's just a helpful "hint."
What benefit is being enjoyed, and by whom? What costs are created?
Are you being serious here? The one engaging in sexually offensive is enjoying the benefit of saying things that they find amusing or empowering while others provide positive feedback for those words. The person at the butt end is paying a price through their demoralized person who is now less effective than they otherwise would be and is experiencing a drain on the achievements reflected in their resume.
We all have a responsibility, if not a legal one, to positively promote society. However, unlike individuals, companies only exist at the whims of government. So we hold companies to a slightly higher standard through force of law.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
If you think people don't get their lives ruined over sexual harassment ALLEGATIONS (forget actual harassment), you're clearly living in a fantasy world.
Sure, you can get fired from a job over it, and they probably have difficulty finding another soon thereafter. But life ruined? Sounds like hyperbole to me. Got any evidence?
caritj.org
The only thing that will be effective is for the company to have a clear policy, as the law requires, and a clear enforcement mechanism. The only way to do that is with the assistance of a qualified labor attorney local to you. If you haven't done this already, whoever runs your company is insane, and your company is doomed. If you have, then keep with it.
The only enforcement mechanism that works is the same as any other kind of behavior that messes up the work place: counseling, warning, and termination. If you fire the first asshole who gets out of line, the rest will know there are consequences. If you lose the rest of the team, you're rid of people who value their childish behavior more than their jobs, or your job. If that hurts your company ,see above about insanity and doom.
You know how I know that ypu don't know any modern feminists?
You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are.
-- Colonel Adolphus Busch
Work is not supposed to be about fun and hyjinks, it is place where you are supposed to cultivate and practice your professional focus. It's about professional self respect, respect for your workplace and respect for your colleagues.
I once worked in a country where work culture is that lines between work and life are very very blurred. Office romance and sexualisation of the workplace was common and accepted as normal. Being the foreigner, got hit on by women and gay men all the freaking time. Worst work environment ever. I know sounds ace, initially it was quite flattering, but it got very tiresome very quickly. Heading off the work, I just want to focus on how to squeeze more ms out of a DB query, but know at some point during the day I am going to get sexually harrassed. Sex and romance is something you pursue outside of work.
"It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse."
The answer isn't a game. I mean unless you like lawsuits.
1. Mandatory sexual harassment training for every employee. (normally companies just give it to managers, but you can save yourself a lot of trouble covering the whole team at once).
2. Write up anyone who violates your company's sexual harassment policy.
3. If you don't have a policy, consult a lawyer that specializes in labor law.
4. Fire anyone who refuses to take the training, or is written up. After you fire a few of your 10 IT guys, the rest will fall in line.
If women wanted to deal with little boys, they would have stayed home and raised children rather than going to work an IT job.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
The women of both sexes on this site are going to mod me into oblivion, but I don't care. Someone has to point out the obvious:
The best way to ruin an enjoyable technical working environment is to add women to it. They are overly sensitive, lawsuit-happy, and generate an unending series of expensive, otherwise unnecessary overhead to even the leanest of operations.
The best way to keep tech jobs enjoyable: hope that women stay out of them. I keep reading about how few women are going into computer related fields, and I count my blessings.
There. Mod me down.
So the fact that false accusations have been made in some cases means we have to scrap the whole concept of harassment? What a stupid implication. Should all rape accusations be dismissed because some woman somewhere falsely accused someone of raping her? Obviously not. And read the OP more closely. He clearly believes that the work environment will abusive, not that some woman is going to come in and decide to retire on the settlement proceeds from a false sexual harassment claim.
'The problem with labels like "modern feminism" is that it allows for grossly oversimplifying the discussion. All you've done here is expose your own beliefs about what women might be thinking and charicatured them in the process.'
Or, I might be basing it off of actually having listened to several self-proclaimed feminists with relatively wide support, drawing conclusions from patterns in what I saw in both them and (more importantly) their supporters. Then again, it's easier for you to simply attack me, because obviously if I say something bad about it, I must be some kind of sexist. There could be no other reason. Thank you for proving EXACTLY what I was saying.
It is true I am generalizing the issue. It is impossible to address any sort of sociological issue without generalizing to some extent. Not all "feminists" do the things I say. Enough do, though, and the ones who aren't do not exactly make much effort to address the problems I stated. They simply prefer to shrug and act like it is the local color.
There is a very real problem and it is not the fact we have a patriarchal or matriarchal society: it is that we have double standards and guilt. We have feminists (not just women, men as well) who believe women should be treated better but equal, and then we have men who feel somehow that they make atone for some sin by repeating it. I say no. If you want equality, you need to pony up for equality. If I have to deal with bullshit, so do you. Sorry, but that's equality. If you do not want that, then what you want is re-arranged inequality.
"How many interviews have you been on where the interviewer explained that all your potential coworkers like to make raunchy jokes and talk about female body parts, and if you don't like that kind of environment then you should quit the interview process? I more than positively sure you've never had such an interview. So how is this hypothetical interviewee supposed to know what the environment is like when they accept a position (ignoring the fact that the company would almost surely be sued for intimidating/offending/harassing a job applicant)?"
I would say asking is a good start. It is in fact quite easy to ask a number of questions which would smoothly express the situation, if you are likely to be easily bothered by it. Further, there are a number of ways to dance around the topic on the employer's part, too; but I do believe it ought to be considered the interviewee's responsibility here. If they are the ones who are going to be easily offended, it falls upon them to decide if the situation is for them. Not everyone else to adapt to shield them from all possible offense.
Great Intellect...
You are presumably not all twelve year olds, so stop acting like them.
This is one of the most pitiful stories I have ever seen on slashdot, but I see it already has a large number of comments so at a wild guess the knuckle dragging "political correctness gone mad, I can't even slap my secretary's arse without getting into trouble" libertarians are out in force blaming the socialist Barack Obama for turning the US into a Stalinist hellhole where thoughtcrimes are punished.but only if you're a heterosexual, white, middle class, Christian male.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
It's been said, roughly 1000 times, but I want to say it again anyways: are your fucking daft!? You're completely thinking of this from a male's perspective instead of empathizing with the new female joining the team. "It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse" - so, you're team is all high school boys? Did you guys miss the memo about being polite in a workplace? What about just being respectful? Do you get on a bus and make lude comments to the women on it because it's how your mind works?
The best mitigation for this behavior is to disallow it from the get-go, and having an environment where this is the norm (be it all male or not, currently) is not a good thing from a business perspective. What if your team is making jokes like this on a day when a supervisor happens to pop in and be on the other side of the cubical wall? If you're going to act like jackasses, expect to be treated like it when you get FIRED for harassment.