Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: the Best Linux Setup To Transition Windows Users?
First time accepted submitter Quantus347 writes "I am trying to convince a number of people to give Linux a chance, arguing that it has come a long way on the road of consumer usability. Can you, oh Wise Ones of Slashdot, recommend a Lunix setup that will be as similar as possible to a Windows environment (Windows 7 or XP). These people hate and fear change, and so will latch onto nearly any noticeable differences, so I'm thinking in terms of both front end functionality and the look of the interface. It would also be very important for them to have to go to the command line as little as possible during daily use (meaning as close to never as can be managed)."
I suggest giving showing them Windows 8 first. After that, the change to any of the major Linux distributions will seem trivial.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
With great hardware support and a polished UI, Ubuntu seems to just work in any case I've implemented it.
Can even go as far as to change out your themeing for an Aero/Win7/WinXP look and feel (Window Theme/Icon Set/Cursor Theme).
The simple fact is they will latch onto something and go back. Even if it was a perfect replica they would.
You are wasting your time.
Never used it, but it's designed for exactly this
http://zorin-os.com/
They sound like awful people. Why do you want to do this?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Personally I find Linux Mint to be the best one, as I prefer my desktop to be more similar to traditional desktop Gnome 2/Windows. Also its very fast and doesn't seem bloated.
Best case scenario, you are right and they can "get used to" the new Linux desktop in front of them. That still saddles YOU with being tier 1, 2, 3, n support for basically the rest of your life. Worst case, things go horribly wrong, days/weeks of work are lost, and you are on the hook for that too.
Just playing devil's advocate, but is supporting Windows 7 and MS office really that bad?
Before you do that ask yourself this: what is the benefit to them of changing? Obviously you're a big fan of linux on the desktop so the benefit to you is great but is it more useable? Does it have compelling features that windows doesn't have? Is it going to make their lives better? Or are you just an evangelist trying to convert them to your religion?
Free BSD 5.0 command line only. That way everybody wins!
The purpose of existence is to make money.
Not running as root by default is a Good Thing. As for running graphical administratory applications, that's what gksudo is for.
I know that and I don't even use Linux much (I've got an Ubuntu server install running Apache that I prod every couple of weeks).
Mint would be the next best choice.
They could use some good word of mouth from the Linux community as well. I'm still depressed that Canonical and Gnome both picked a very bad time to screw around with their usability. With the mess that is Windows 8 coming out, and Steam coming for Linux, there's never been a more promising time for Linux. UEFI still worries the crap out of me for the future though. I wish Google would come out with a 'Google/Chrome Linux' full distro to get some momentum behind adoption.
KDE is about as close as you can get to a Windows clone. I know some people who use Kubuntu and seem to like it, and they are primarily Windows users.
People won't change because you think they should, they will change when they need to, for example when they think they need a new computer but don't have the money to pay for it, or when their virus-infested Windows machine is giving them headaches.
So, wait until they have a reason to change, and at that point the best thing you can do is install the most mainstream Linux installation you feel comfortable with (e.g., Ubuntu), even if it looks different from Windows. You might give them a choice between Gnome Classic, Gnome, and Unity and show them how they can switch at login time.
Help them politely and up to a point, but ultimately make it clear that it is their choice and their decision what they want to run.
If these people are satisfied with Windows, why change?
There's nothing special about Linux that warrants the frustration that both you and these users would experience. What happens when you have to tell them that their favorite pet program or game won't run? What's the point of switching? There's nothing available for Linux that doesn't have an equivalent on Windows, while the reverse is most definitely not the case.
I put my parents on Debian running XFCE. It looks a bit different from Windows, but the basic concepts are the same. "X" to close the window, box to maximize it, task bar to launch programs, etc.
I should add, though, that my parents never used Windows. I took them straight from MS-DOS to Linux. Going from DOS to XFCE isn't any more disruptive than DOS to Windows, I guess.
On the opposite, the new Unity interface having a kind of "start" button (the top-left one), a control center and customizable startable icons make probably the interface pretty similar to what Windows offers. I has some hard time to get used to Unity (from Gnome 2-3), but it's workable (after the bug fixes).
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
My first question is: Why? Why, if they're both hateful and fearful of change, would they need to change? Why not a newer version of Windows or a Mac?
Users aren't oriented towards their OS, they're oriented towards their tasks. Their typical question will begin with "How do I..." and then continue into "but then how do I...". So your first issue is to determine what they use and how they use it and then find out the best way to solve each of those individual use cases or problems. For example, "How do I manage my finances, I currently use Quicken?" or "How do I upload pictures from my camera?". You need to solve each of those use cases in a sane manner that's easy to use and just as good or better than what they have. Typical users, especially the ones you describe, don't want to spend any more time with their computer than they need to.
Don't underestimate a user's ability to forget things that they do on their computer. Again, they're task-oriented and so they won't necessarily remember that they need a certain program to update some infrequently used spreadsheet twice a year.
Only if you can help them complete their tasks should you switch; you shouldn't switch them to Linux because you perceive it as better; it might not be better for them and then they'll have a tainted view of Linux when in fact the problem was that they couldn't use their silly banner-creation software from 1999 on it.
Linux Mint with Cinnamon would be one of your best bets. "Everything" button in the lower left, system tray in the lower right, just like Windows, and yet you're still running (a fork of) Gnome 3, so you get all the latest bells and whistles.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Nobody much loves Unity, but Ubuntu 12.04 with either Gnome or KDE is pretty slick and easy to use.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
Check there hardware and software needs first.
There can be wifi issues (drivers) and on laptops not all stuff may work.
Whatever you choose, I suggest you keep them away from Unity and whatever happened to Gnome as of late.
IMHO, KDE is the closest, in its current incarnation, to a Windows experience. So, maybe Kubuntu will do. Another nice KDE-centric distro could be OpenSuSE, and they have also an awesome (and very underrated) control panel.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Stop confusing the issues with facts. This person went for weeks, weeks, he tells us, to make such conclusions. His facts are his facts, and Ubuntu must be trashed! Give him his due!
Were it me, I'd recommend LinuxMint 13 with Mate 1.2, based on the Gnome fork, Ubuntu 12.04, and the Debian substrate.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Make sure you've found out what it is they do, and that you have apps lines up that can give them EVERYTHING they want. If you can't do that, then don't bother. I don't mean a program that "Does the same thing but maybe has some problems," or a program that "Is under active development and will totally support that real soon now." I mean applications that are either the same program, or otherwise 100% replacements for what they use now.
One problem I find with a lot of "You should just switch to Linux," advocates is that they think severely compromising your workflow is going to be a-ok with users. That users should be willing to make big tradeoffs in what they can do or how they do it just for the amazing privilege of using Linux. That, of course, goes over like a ton of bricks with the users.
For example it seems like if someone uses Photoshop and Illustrator it takes about 2 seconds before the knee-jerk "Use GIMP!" gets screamed. However what that says is that you aren't actually considering their use case, just finding a program that is nominally in the same area and deciding it is good enough. Not even close. For some people, GIMP is a fine Photoshop replacement. For others, not at all. GIMP is not at all on Photoshop's level so depending on what the person does it may not be an adequate replacement.
So that is step one: Evaluate what they do, what programs they use and what they use them to do. Then see if you can find replacement software in Linux that does ALL of that. If you can, ok then you can move on to the next step of finding something to make the transition as easy as possible. If you can't, then pack it in and don't bother, because you cannot in fact offer them an easy change. Any change you offer would be one where they would have to make compromises. That's ok for someone who is interested in changing and willing to compromise, that's not ok for someone who is happy and you are trying to convince them change for its own sake is good.
I would go with KDE, it's kind of similar (but way more powerful) to Windows in many ways. With a bit of tweaking (ie. double-click) you could make it pretty cosy for ex-MS users.
KDE is very polished now, no show-stopping or other annoying bugs. Personally - I use Arch, but thats not viable for someone who is not a power user.
You should search for a distro that has KDE by default (as the main DE), because offshoots like kubuntu have pretty poor integration and many features are broken. Taking this into consideration I think that OpenSuse would be a good choice.
If these people are willing to give Linux a chance, then let them try out a live CD of something popular, like Ubuntu. If they like it, good, if they don't, no harm done. The idea of trying to accommodate Windows ways of doing things on Linux feels quite counterproductive. If people are really interested in giving some proper consideration to changing their computer tools they should start with a blank slate rather than expecting you to make Linux look and feel like the computer they are used to.
Chances are, they agreed to your "trial" of Linux just to be polite when you insisted, and may have little motivation to carry this through.
Considering the wide variety of responses you're getting, I'd suggest submitting this as a poll. There are a number of suggestions getting tossed out right now, and I'm seeing more posts offering different alternatives than subthreads splitting off to support already suggested options
Though this may simply be their way of saying "there really isn't any one answer that has a significant and obvious advantage over the others". :( But either way, I don't think you're getting the results you needed by posting this question, because people are simply providing you with a broad list of all the options you were already aware of without really helping you nail down just a few with useful comparisons to focus your decision on.
Take the top ~8 suggestions (though you are likely already aware of what they are going to be) and resubmit this as a poll. Then do your own research on the top 2 or 3 for a final decision on what will work best in your specific circumstances.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
I'd start by reading this (and if possible, having them read it as well):
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
Bottom line is, they *have* to want to change. If, as you say, they will latch onto any differences to decry the fact that Linux is not *exactly* like Windows, then, well, you're screwed and may as well not waste your time, because the fact is, Linux *is* different from Windows (the very reason why e.g. I use it).
One thing I've always found funny is that these same people have possibly gone through many changes in Windows and MS Office, always without complaint, because it was fed to them by Microsoft as "the next step". It will probably be the same once they get Windows 8 on a computer; they may think "this is hard to learn" but they will learn it without complaint. But put them in front of Linux and they'll cry foul and refuse to use it because "it's different". This mentality is very hard to beat; I stopped trying a few years ago and just let them writhe in their malware-infected sewers while I continue being able to work on Linux.
I just wish they'd expand the control centre. Regardless of what they believe, there are a LOT of users that want to have tight control over their settings, while never having to use a terminal.
--
There are a few things we would need to remember about asking people to change. They are going to be naturally resistant to it and they will complain when they have to use effort to accomplish change. I would choose Linux Mint 13 KDE. Why? (1) It works right out of the box. (2) KDE's appearance is very much like Windows (3) KDE is very easy to customize (4) There is enough eye candy to impress, but not overwhelm (5) Mint is likely to continue in business for the foreseeable future I do not work for or have any financial interest in any Linux company either. But Mint 13 Cinnamon also has many of these same attributes. I just think KDE does it better.
Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!
in VMs, since Zorin doesn't require that I rewire my brain to its interface requirements. It's my surfing/writing/spreadsheet/media machine. I do everything but development on it. When I no longer need to develop for windows, I'll chuck the Windows VMs. The transition was remarkably painless.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
This is correct.
Precise 12.04 is not bug-free, but it's solid, fast even on several-year-old-hardware that wasn't top of the line even then, easy to learn, and requires minimal or no adjustments once you get it the way you like it. the fact that it will be actively supported for many years is a bonus. it's not perfect, but then nothing is. it's good enough.
for a new linux user, coming from MS or Apple OSes, unity -makes sense-, and has the level of professional polish they expect.
posting AC because I'm tired of getting downmodded by hardcore linux fanboys who think if you didn't compile it yourself, you should get out of their sandbox, and if you say you actually like unity you must have something wrong with you.
Few years ago I had an attempt to switch to Linux Debian. After I was unable to connect to a network printer, went back to Windows. It required sysadm expertise to configure it which is a showstopper for a Windows user.
Last week I gave it a new try with Linux Mint. This time connected to network printer perfectly. Even two finger scroll on TouchPad works. However I had few concerns:
- System freezes several times a day (even numlock doesn't work)
- Only Intel graphic card is used for display (No driver support for Nvidia card)
- It consumes laptop battery three time faster then on Windows
After few days I went back to Windows. Don't have two finger scroll, but can use Nvidia, battery is longer and it doesn't freeze. I'll try again eventually.
I agree with Linux Mint, and I'd specifically go for the KDE variety -- Despite all the hate that was generated for it, KDE4 is now a very good desktop, plus makes for a good transition experience for a Windows user.
Mint supports Nvidia. I'm using a GeForce GTX 460 with the 295.49 driver. They have done much better keeping up with the latest driver versions than Ubuntu proper .
That nVidia card you have (the hybrid/switchable graphics) is the reason for Linus's now famous "F* you, nVidia" comment.
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
I find that the desktop environment or distribution really doesn't matter that much in the end, what matters is that you have the application that you need. So if the users you want to switch over just need a browser, any popular distribution will do (i.e. Ubuntu), but if your users want to play games or use Photoshop or whatever, forget it, it's a waste of time, as Linux doesn't really have anything in those areas that can match the quality of products that Windows offers.
Also know what you are up against. Windows98 did had some issues with stability and such that made Linux an interesting alternative. Newer Windows do not. My Linux boxes crash a heck of a lot more (mostly thanks to buggy GPU drivers) then my rusty copy of Vista, which I don't think I have ever seen crashing. So there is no benefit in switching over for stability. Only areas where I still see Linux having a big advantage is in old hardware support (i.e. drivers rarely become obsolete with a new version) and lower system requirements when you display all the OpenGL desktop effects.
So in the end Linux is good for poor people and Open Source hippies. For everybody else there really is not much reason to switch on the desktop.
I'm not sure that dismissing a hybrid integrated / discreet video laptop as a "corner case" is entirely fair. Quite a few laptops have been made in that configuration, and it does make a pretty tremendous improvement in battery life to use the lesser GPU when you don't need the extra power of the discreet chip.
I'd personally say any case where Linux is left unable to use performance or battery life increasing features of a laptop is a pretty bad situation. Certainly for me to sell Mom & Dad on, "Here's your new OS! It kind of looks the same, but your battery only lasts half as long." Yeah Not gonna fly...
Um, Xubuntu is a current version of Ubuntu. My elderly and not-technically-inclined parents are using it.
Note that 'novices' don't install operating systems, either. In practice, everyone who's not a techie leans on someone for tech support - family, friends, the neighbor's kid who's "good with computers". Windows sure doesn't maintain itself.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
The intel graphics driver is notorious for hanging when you do a lot of 3D rendering.
If you have an nvidia card, my suggestion is grabbing the binary driver from 'www.nvidia.com' for Linux and installing it.
It has a runtime installer that will automatically update your xwindow configuration.
So you basically download it, run/install it, then restart your Xwindow environment and you should be golden.
Man, we really need to stop thinking that everyone wants what we want. For an end user, that Apple-like, appliance experience may be just the ticket, and Unity is perfect for them. Only a handful of users in the world even KNOW what a desktop manager is; they don't want to tinker and customize, they just to run apps.
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
On Linux, you almost universally find meaningful error messages, log files, verbose mode, etc. On Windows, you hardly ever do. So yeah, fixing Linux is easier because it's much easier to figure out what's actually wrong.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
http://zorin-os.com/ Based on Ubuntu 12.04, deliberately made to look and behave like Windows 7.
For the system freezes, you could check the kernel log. It might give you an idea of what is causing the lockup.
You can try Ironhide or Bumblebee for solving your Nvidia optimus problem.
The battery issue is mostly due to the Nvidia GPU being on all the time. If you get Ironhide / Bumblebee working it should mostly resolve your battery issue.
You are talking about NVidia Optimus which is not and never will be supported on Linux. The little run-in Linus had with NVidia is about this. I have one of these laptops (Dell XPS 15 L502x), and I simply blacklisted the NVidia card and let run everything on Intel. Works fine from what I see, but I don't actually use that laptop all that much.
Basically this is a case of "caveat emptor", and I plead guitly too. I read "NVidea", said: "great linux support" without doing any research and... well. that's about it. My mistake. Luckily it was only a 525€ mistake and the laptop is pretty damn fine for the rest. Just no 3D.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Give them Ubuntu 12.04 and tell them it is Windows 8!
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
This guys is throwing up one of those "hybrid-laptops". He's found his corner case and he's going to troll it for everything it's worth.
If hybrid graphics on a laptop counts as a corner case and so do similarly common corners with other components (hybrid SSD/HD, fingerprint reader, uh...3g transceiver, etc.) then I think the vast majority of computers will have some sort of corner case that is central to their normal operation.
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
I've read your post a couple times now - and can't seem to make sense of it.
Can't install Mint on Mint/Debian? I can't imagine that anyone has wanted to. Has anyone tried? And, why?
As for the benefits of the Ubuntu community - I just don't know. I mean, we all realize that Ubuntu is a subsection of the greater Debian community, right? If it works on Debian, it should work on Ubuntu, but not necessarily the opposite. Ubuntu has bastardized Debian for their own purposes, and butchered the desktop. Hordes of Ubuntu users are fleeing that community, and finding refuge with Mint. Mint Debian, for me, which remains true to the real Debian community, and basically has turned it's back on the heretics over at Ubuntu.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
For a newbie, the first thing I would suggest is a distro that has strong community support.
A newbie is going to need a significant amount of help.
I once enjoyed the thought of 'liberating' my friends and family from the shackles of Windows in a similar way. I even installed Ubuntu on a client's computer when I worked in a repair shop, when a desperate mother came seeking a way for her daughter to avoid viruses.
After installing Ubuntu, the client responded positively. Shortly after, I got a call asking how to get their printer working, and how to install MSN messenger. I scrambled to find a *nix clone...ah, aMSN, bingo! OK, install from repos, done.
Now, printer. OK, bring it in with the computer so I can install it. It's a Canon, but it's not in the default CUPS package (at the time). Hit up Canon's website. They have a binary, but it doesn't install right. Crap. I don't remember how it worked out, but I think I got it working after several hours of free labor.
Moral of the story is: don't do this unless you're 100% OK with hand-holding each one of these people with every issue that arises, and are willing to take responsibility for failure if you can't fix a problem.
IMO, desktop Linux is currently appropriate for two audiences: tech-savvy, capable adventurers who want to try something new and don't mind finding answers on their own, or the very computer illiterate, who use machines for literally just getting online and checking email. Even then, you run some risks.
I've moved over 10 users from XP to Ubuntu 10.04, mostly people whose XP install was beyond repair with malware, and who never made or had lost their system recovery disks. I've had zero complaints and of the users converted, I get far less calls for assistance than I do from the others I support who are still on XP or Vista. I'm currently trying out 12.04 on my personal machines, and as far as I'm concerned, Ubuntu has jumped the shark with Unity. I see both Windows and Ubuntu going down this insane "everybody gets a play-skool tablet interface, even on a desktop" road. I'm seriously looking at Mint for future migrations from XP vs Ubuntu, once 10.04LTS gets close to End Of Support...
THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
This guys is throwing up one of those "hybrid-laptops". He's found his corner case and he's going to troll it for everything it's worth.
Really? So it's considered a "troll" for someone to explain clearly and calmly why his laptop didn't run as well under linux? He even talked about how it's improving over time and he plans to try again.
I've had numerous machines that have problems with linux in one area or another, as well as numerous machines that work fine with it. Does that mean I'm a troll looking for corner-cases? Attitudes like yours, immediately dismissing and mocking anyone who has hardware that isn't perfectly supported, is one of the reasons that linux doesn't get adopted as quickly.
I'm amazed that this got modded to +5 informative.
Google would probably start adding non-standard extensions to it, slowly diverging it from other GNU/Linux distros (as has happened with Chromium).
Even if they document everything publicly, stuff made for Googlinux won't work in other distros in time.
Can you, oh Wise Ones of Slashdot, recommend a Lunix setup that will be as similar as possible to a Windows environment (Windows 7 or XP)
Yes, I can: Don't.
What you are trying is creating a rip-off. No matter how much better Linux is, no matter how close you come to the experience your test subjects have now, there will be some tiny little detail that is different and that will convince them that Linux sucks.
"Humans are funny", in the words of Tim Minchhin.
You should face their fears. Give them something that is different, but so well set up that they appreciate the difference. Look at Apple - every single one of their successful products for the past years worked like that. It was different - and better - than what else was on the market at the time. Getting used to an iPhone when you had a Nokia for several years did take a short while, but very, very quickly you wanted to do it, because it was the better experience.
You will not succeed in convincing someone that Linux is better by making it look like a cheap rip-off of their old windows environment. In the workplace, retraining costs are a factor that might justify such a decision, because most office drones have no intrinsic motivation for a change.
But that is exactly what you need to tap. Don't find out what your test subjects like about windows, you shouldn't care. Find out what they hate about it, and make sure that your Linux system is better in that regards and put this advantage in their face. If they hate the start menu (and who doesn't?), find a nice launcher application that opens automatically when they log in. If they hate how long it takes to boot, do everything to speed up your systems boot process and window system startup. If they hate UAC and all the other thousand notifications windows throws at you every other second ("scan started", "mouse found", "keyboad in different USB port this time", "someone posted something on the Internet", "look, I have WiFi!", "driver out of date", "are you still reading this?"...) then make sure that the notification system on your Linux box is set to be as unobtrusive and silent as possible.
Don't make the same mistake that some Linux freaks have been making for 10 years, probably the main reason the year of the Linux desktop has never happened and never will. Don't try to provide a better windows. Convince them of Linux, including the fact that it is different. Fear of change is vastly overrated. People don't fear change per se, they fear loss (of skills and knowledge) and disorientation. Address these fears instead of trying to avoid them.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Yet , those same people will say they love OS X, and they don't realize that its still Linux
It isn't. It is Unix derived (BSD mainly at the core) and uses a fair chunk of the GNU tool chain, but Linux it isn't. Not that the average use knows (or cares about) the difference.
Could have milked that situation for fun and profit..
"Oh this? I really shouldn't tell you this, but it's a advance release edition of Windows 8 for software developers."
"Cool! it looks really slick.. Know how I could get a copy?"
Looking around furtively, you reply; "Do you have any idea how secretive they are in Redmond? I could be fired/sued just for letting you see what you have already!"
"Well as long as you're in for a penny, do you think you could make a copy for me?"
"Oh gee... well there's absolutely no way that I can just give you a copy of the disk, you see, the installer is serialized and we'd both certainly get nastygrams from Microsoft's lawyers if we tried that, but... " (continue looking nervous and gasping for air)
"But what?"
(whispering very quietly) "You seem honest enough... If you brought me your laptop, I might be able to scrub the install codes and serial numbers, but I'd need at least a couple weeks to work on that and I'd have to charge for my time working on it, so you'd really be better off waiting 'til it's released publicly next year.."
"Really? How much would you charge?"
"You have to remember that we're talking about over 6 gigabytes of code I'd have to pore over to make sure it doesn't incriminate me and jeopardize you in the process."
"C',mon. just name your price!"
(looking flushed) "Keep your voice down.. We don't know who else is here, but for the hours I'd have to work on it, I'd normally be compensated around 5K, but since I'll benefit somewhat from analyzing the binaries, I suppose I could do it for you for maybe 1500."
"That is a lot of money!"
"Listen, I told you you'd be better off waiting. I don't work for free, I hope you understand that, but you are the one who's been expressing such an interest."
"True.. Look could I give you half in advance and the balance on delivery?"
(rubbing your temple for a couple of seconds) "I suppose I could work with you on that."
"Okay, deal!"
Now just install Ubuntu, and set up a few wallpaper images bearing a Windows 8 logo along with a Banner stating "For Development Use Only" on each one, Delete any stock backgrounds depicting penguins, or specifying Linux, Ubuntu, or such... Stick it in the closet and stall him when he calls over the next three weeks stating that you are still analyzing, debugging, getting video drivers to work, etc.. before giving it back to him a month later upon receipt of the final payment.
Javascript, cookies, flash, and ActiveX must be enabled in order to view this sig.