Data-Fed Monitoring System Will Put New Yorkers Under Police Surveillance

Nerval's Lobster writes that New York City isn't just gathering data on citizens with cameras and other data sources for sifting through later to seek evidence in the event of violent acts; it's using some of that data in real-time in an attempt to reveal potential criminal activity. They've even picked a name for their system that echoes DARPA's Total Information Awareness, which I guess is more diplomatic than just calling it Precrime: "The Domain Awareness System will draw data from 911 calls, previous crime reports, license-plate readers, law-enforcement databases, environmental sensors, and roughly 3,000 closed-circuit cameras. It will rely on the New York City Wireless Network (NYCWiN), a high-speed wireless broadband infrastructure that allows city agencies to rapidly transmit data, and used for everything from emergency response to reading meters. Mayor Bloomberg argued that the system isn't an example of Big Brother overstepping the line. 'What you're seeing is what the private sector has used for a long time,' he told Gothamist. 'If you walk around with a cell phone, the cell phone company knows where you are. We're not your mom and pop's police department anymore.'"

Comments

Oh that kooky Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

"And finally, Bos, I just want to say thank you for Youkilis." –joking at a fundraiser in Boston about the Red Sox trading their beloved slugger Kevin Youkilis to Chicago White Sox, Obama's hometown team. The line drew boos from the audience. (June 25, 2012)

"When I meet with world leaders, what's striking -- whether it's in Europe or here in Asia..." -mistakenly referring to Hawaii as Asia while holding a press conference outside Honolulu, Nov. 16, 2011

"We're the country that built the Intercontinental Railroad." —Cincinnati, OH, Sept. 22, 2011

"We're not trying to push financial reform because we begrudge success that's fairly earned. I mean, I do think at a certain point you've made enough money. But, you know, part of the American way is, you know, you can just keep on making it if you're providing a good product or providing good service. We don’t want people to stop, ah, fulfilling the core responsibilities of the financial system to help grow our economy." —on Wall Street reform, Quincy, Ill., April 29, 2010

"One such translator was an American of Haitian descent, representative of the extraordinary work that our men and women in uniform do all around the world -- Navy Corpse-Man Christian Brossard." –mispronouncing "Corpsman" (the "ps" is silent) during a speech at the National Prayer Breakfast, Washington, D.C., Feb. 5, 2010 (The Corpsman's name is also Christopher, not Christian)

"The Middle East is obviously an issue that has plagued the region for centuries." --Tampa, Fla., Jan. 28, 2010

"UPS and FedEx are doing just fine, right? It's the Post Office that's always having problems." –attempting to make the case for government-run healthcare, while simultaneously undercutting his own argument, Portsmouth, N.H., Aug. 11, 2009

"The Cambridge police acted stupidly." —commenting on a white police officer's arrest of black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. at his home in Cambridge, Mass., at a news conference, July 22, 2009

"The reforms we seek would bring greater competition, choice, savings and inefficiencies to our health care system." --in remarks after a health care roundtable with physicians, nurses and health care providers, Washington, D.C., July 20, 2009

"It was also interesting to see that political interaction in Europe is not that different from the United States Senate. There's a lot of -- I don't know what the term is in Austrian, wheeling and dealing." --confusing German for "Austrian," a language which does not exist, Strasbourg, France, April 6, 2009

"No, no. I have been practicing...I bowled a 129. It's like -- it was like Special Olympics, or something." --making an off-hand joke during an appearance on "The Tonight Show", March 19, 2009 (Obama later called the head of the Special Olympics to apologize)

"I didn't want to get into a Nancy Reagan thing about doing any seances." --after saying he had spoken with all the living presidents as he prepared to take office, Washington, D.C., Nov. 7, 2008 (Obama later called Nancy Reagan to apologize)

"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." -- defending his tax plan to Joe the Plumber, who argued that Obama's policy hurts small-business owners like himself, Toledo, Ohio, Oct. 12, 2008

"What I was suggesting -- you're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith..." --in an interview with ABC's George Stephanopoulos, who jumped in to correct Obama by saying "your Christian faith," which Obama quickly clarified (Watch video clip)

"I'm here with the Girardo family here in St. Louis." --speaking via satellite to the Democratic National Convention, while in Kansas City, Missouri, Aug. 25, 2008

"Let me introduce to you the next President -- the next Vice President of the United States of America, Joe Biden." --slipping up while introducing Joe Biden at their first joint campaign rally, Springfield, Illinois, Aug. 23, 2008

"Just this past week, we passed out of the U.S. Sen

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

The more you troll the less people listen to you.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

You're welcome.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[Sarten-X]

Remarkably on-topic.

Once everyone has their every waking moment recorded, let's see how many offhand comments, politically-incorrect statements, and slip-of-the-tongue mistakes you make. I bet it'll be more than 28 in four years.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

Sea kelp.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

57 states slip of the tongue! Haahahahhahhahhhahaha. That's pretty good. Careful there, there's some brown stuff on your nose.

Forget all that, can you just imagine how this would be played were these 'slips of the tongue' spoken by Bush? This would be front page headlines for the next century and beyond. Do not even try and tell me otherwise.

You tools.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

I told you already I am, I am seeking more conservative voters.

This means you. Awake from your trance statist, use the brain that god gave you for a change.

Or perhaps you like your welfare checks and living in moms basement. Your choice.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[nedlohs]

Bush mispoke just as many times, and surprise surprise they aren't front page headlines less than a decade later let along for the next century.

Just like week I called someoe "Anna" when their name was actually "Anne" - you would have been amazed.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[xevioso]

Only idiots vote for people based on what they say and how many times they misspeak.

The difference between Bush and Obama is that Bush's policies were just as stupid as the crap that spewed from his drawling mouth.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[NotSanguine]

I really hope you get paid for sloshing this tripe all over the intertubes. If not, well that would be a very sad story. On the bright side, I guess it's the result of the Citizens United decision creating jobs. Go SCOTUS!

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[Sarten-X]

Considering that the words "forty" and "fifty" are very similar, yes, I expect it was a slip of the tongue. Every president (and indeed, every other politician, executive, and other celebrity) has made just as many mistakes. They're human. It happens.

Do you expect the act of inauguration to somehow free a person from all distractions? Or does it magically provide an extra few hours a day to set aside for practicing upcoming speeches? Or is it just this particular person that's under examination, when the last president was just as bad?

It's a simple fact of life that people often mix up thoughts while speaking. It's so common that nobody notices everyday occurrences unless they're particularly egregious. When the speaker is a celebrity, though, suddenly it's a big deal that supposedly reflects negatively on the intelligence of the person. We all know perfectly well what the speaker intended, so why is a misspoken phrase so important?

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[Genda]

Are you kidding, there are 6 full volumes of "Bush"isms... and not just half conscious blathering performed at the end of 4, 22 hours days. Obama is well known for brilliantly reading speeches, he's an excellent orator. Even Reagan, a man who could handle a written speech with the best (there is no better training for public speaking than being an actor.) Opened his mouth and delivered unprepared howlers.Face it, The guys that run our country are forced to deal with topics outside their expertise, and if they're hard working SOBs, then in a tired moment stupid stuff will be said. If you have 4 years of public speaking, and in that time they can only hang a couple dozen faux paus on you, while having a body of public speaking that typically excellent. No biggie,

You can't honestly compare that to a man (Dubyah) who couldn't open his mouth prepared or not, and reflexively not have something stupid fall out. That kind of nit picking is the sign of someone whose rectum is much too firmly clenched. Nobody denies that Ronny was "The Communicator", and that his comments about "catchup being a vegetable" or that "trees cause pollution" were aberrations in an otherwise pretty spectacular job of speaking to the masses.

In short, if you wanna burn on Obama for caving in to Hollywood, or gutting our rights as citizen, I got some matches right here, and I can be back with some lighter fluid in about 5 minutes. You wanna make like he's Bush #2 the talking baboon, ah, not so much, in fact your hurting your own cause, because you just look like a childish hater pulling stuff outta your posterior to trump up as an issue... that ain't him looking stupid. Its you.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[dgatwood]

It was also interesting to see that political interaction in Europe is not that different from the United States Senate. There's a lot of -- I don't know what the term is in Austrian, wheeling and dealing." --confusing German for "Austrian," a language which does not exist, Strasbourg, France, April 6, 2009

Hate to tell you this, but those sorts of expressions are not part of the language. They tend to be local. Tell someone in America to call the bobby and he'll be completely baffled. Tell someone in Britain to dial 911, and they'll look at you with equal puzzlement. His mistake was in saying "...what the term is in Austrian" rather than "what the Austrian term is", a much more forgivable misordering of words.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[nedlohs]

I'm not sure what any of that had to do with anything I wrote.

I didn't "burn on Obama", I didn't compare his errors with Bush's. In fact I didn't mention Obama at all. I merely responded to a ludicrous claim with the obvious counter example that what was claimed clearly is not happening.

But sure bring out the insults, calling me stupid will shut me right up I guess.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[metaforest]

This.
Bravo *claps*

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[dave87656]

I found your post interesting and I agree with most of it. Clinton was also a great speaker, btw, and could make everyone in the room feel like he was talking just to them. He was intelligent and whether it was his doing or not, we enjoyed 8 years of prosperity and sound thinking during his reign.

Re:Oh that kooky Obama

[dave87656]

The difference between Bush and Obama is that Bush's policies were just as stupid as the crap that spewed from his drawling mouth.

I used to think that, too. But I'm starting to think the president doesn't really have that much power anymore. I used to think that the police state started with the Patriot Act but now I think it started somewhat earlier but got a big boost with the Patriot Act. I was hopeful that the current administration would gut it and make bring us back in line with our constitution. But, with all good intentions, it's not happening. I think the power is now held by congress (which is influenced by special interests) and the judicial branch.

Bit Flipping...

[3seas]

How many times have we heard one thing said and the opposite done?

Re:Bit Flipping...

[garyoa1]

That would be 184,576.03 times.

Film at 11.

Re:Bit Flipping...

[Ghubi]

Every time

Re:Bit Flipping...

[MightyMartian]

Best of all, if they catch a new mother feeding her baby formula or some guy trying to supersize his Coke at McDonalds, they can have the SWAT team their in minutes!

Re:Bit Flipping...

[Genda]

Faster if the assault vehicles are already gassed.

Re:Bit Flipping...

[Anonymous Coward]

Put police under New Yorker surveillance? Sounds like a good idea! ;)

Re:Bit Flipping...

[VortexCortex]

Best of all, if they catch a new mother feeding her baby formula or some guy trying to supersize his Coke at McDonalds, they can have the SWAT team their in minutes!

Faster if the assault vehicles are already gassed.

Faster still if the mothers and patrons are gassed!

Re:Bit Flipping...

[Anonymous Coward]

Mayor Bloomberg argued that the system isn't an example of Big Brother overstepping the line. 'What you're seeing is what the private sector has used for a long time,' he told Gothamist. 'If you walk around with a cell phone, the cell phone company knows where you are. We're not your mom and pop's police department anymore.'

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUUUUUUUUUCKK!!!!!!!

So what they're saying is exactly the same logic as: “This is not mass-murder, child-rape, terrorism and torture, because... THERE ARE RAPISTS OUT THERE WHO DID THAT FOR A LONG TIME!"

AS IF THAT WAS A JUSTIFICATION FOR MASS-MURDER, CHILD-RAPE, TERRORISM AND TORTURE!!!

HE IS A ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE AND MUST BE EXPELLED RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!

And anyone who doesn't do anything other than grab that asshole by his throat, and throw him out of the fucking country until he IS outside of the country, is just as much an enemy of the people, criminal, terrorist, Stalin and SS Division Totenkopf sympathizer.

The problem

[Anonymous Coward]

"We're not your mom and pop's police department anymore." That's the problem Mr. Bloomberg.

Re:The problem

[cayenne8]

I wonder if they're going to try to come up with new names for the Ministry of Truth and Ministry of Love.....or just go ahead and follow the blueprint the rest of the way through unchanged....?

Re:The problem

[0123456]

The real problem is that there are now so many laws that everyone is a criminal, you can't even tell for certain whether what you're doing is illegal because it may be hidden in an obscure paragraph on page 10,799 of the 'Think Of The Children Act 2003' and if every law was enforced the entire economy would shut down.

Re:The problem

[Sentrion]

And the laws are so vague that nobody knows if you're really guilty until a judge says so. It's such problem that lawyers today usually advise against taking advantage of some new law until the law has been "tested" in court. It is not unheard of that a person can be complying with law a and compying with law b, but when doing so simultaneously without complying with law c they are guilty of some horrendous crime and must spend years in prison for what most people would perceive as routine day-to-day business.

Import business can be very scary because you can be tried and imprisoned in the US for violating the law of some other country, even when that other country sends diplomats and sworn affidavits that their laws were not violated.

You don't even have to break any known laws. A judge can simply find you in contempt and leave you to rot in prison for six years, at his sole discretion.

Re:The problem

[poetmatt]

Please. This is microsoft setting up the system. I wouldn't be surprised if this has a Microsoft-esque marketing campaign attached.

"it's for your own benefit, and there are safeguards in place to prevent abuse" etc etc. (all while being untrue)

Re:The problem

[Genda]

I'm so sorry, you're looking for the Monsanto office down the hall and on your left, and the "Exxon Mobil" office around the corner, just keep going past the "AIG" office and you'll see it on your right... its the REALLY BIG office.

Re:The problem

[Genda]

Every place you wanna go? We're already there... Gotcha!!! Microsoft

Re:The problem

[davydagger]

but there not going to be enforced equally.

the entire point of a police state isn't to enforce laws on the books, its to make everyone a criminal, and enforce them when convienant.

It gives the police discretion to arrest whomever they want, when they want, and leave it to their judgement to do so.

Well connected inviduals? more of a chance to get a pass.

Slow day, and its budget time? arrest as many people as possible?

Personal beef with the police? arrested.

Look funny? arrested?

going to give information that might lead to arrest of a police officer or friends? arrested first, terrorist.

Re:The problem

[executioner]

so when the cameras see someone using a Mac or Linux laptop A Microsoft rep in the area gets a test to go talk some sense (beat them soundly) into buying a Microsoft upgrade?

Re:The problem

[7-Vodka]

Why would this get modded Troll?

This guy is absolutely right, there are tens of thousands of Federal laws on the books and if you ask THE FEDS how many laws they have they cannot tell you because they can't keep track of them.

And it's not just importers of goods that can get wrapped up in laws from other Nations, there are several federal laws that say you are committing a felony if you violate any law in any international country, even if you were outside of the US at the time and if you were ignorant of the foreign law AND regardless of whether the foreign nation cares to prosecute you.

There's a reason why any sane defense attorney advises you to STFU under all circumstances and plead the 5th. Because even THEY cannot tell you with any certainty that what you are saying will not incriminate you of some crime, NOBODY can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Re:The problem

[Anonymous Coward]

We can be proud. We've got "The best government money can buy!"

Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

Mayor Bloomberg argued that the system isn't an example of Big Brother overstepping the line. 'What you're seeing is what the private sector has used for a long time,' he told Gothamist. 'If you walk around with a cell phone, the cell phone company knows where you are. We're not your mom and pop's police department anymore.'"

The difference here is that I am not allowed to opt-out of the government's system. I am able to choose whether I want to allow the private sector to know where I am by not buying a cell phone. Big difference there, chief.

Re:Unsubscribe

[garcia]

The difference here is that I am not allowed to opt-out of the government's system. I am able to choose whether I want to allow the private sector to know where I am by not buying a cell phone. Big difference there, chief.

Exactly. And the oft-misquoted saying that applies here doesn't need to be repeated but I would rather be one of a few thousand people to die due to criminal activity than have the Mayor of NYC tracking my every move because he can.

Re:Unsubscribe

[jhoegl]

I believe you can "opt-out" by moving to another country.
Or in this case, another city.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Mitreya]

The difference here is that I am not allowed to opt-out of the government's system. I am able to choose whether I want to allow the private sector to know where I am by not buying a cell phone.

Also, the private sector uses that information to serve me. The cell phone company knows where I am because they need to connect my calls.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Artraze]

And, more to the point, the cell phone company can't put people in jail. They aren't going to be searching that data to "discover" crimes. (Collect enough data and statistically you can 'prove' almost anything). If anything, their incentive is to ignore it as much as possible: Not only because it limits their liability in case something happens that they missed, but also because people is jail aren't buying cell phones.

Re:Unsubscribe

[fustakrakich]

The difference here is that I am not allowed to opt-out of the government's system.

You can always replace the people who run it. You can actually vote for change, should you accept the challenge. Either way, private or public, the power is in our hands, and when things go wrong, especially on the chronic time scale we're looking at, we have nobody but ourselves to blame. We enable both the dictator and the industrialist who props him up.

Re:Unsubscribe

[0123456]

You can always replace the people who run it.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Re:Unsubscribe

[cpu6502]

>>>The difference here is that I am not allowed to opt-out of the government's system.

After CISPA passes (or some other annoying acronym like SOPA or FEAR), there won't be any difference. The executive branch of the state or central government will just demand the cellphone company turn-over their records of where you've been. No need for a signature from the judicial branch either. No checks/balances required.

Re:Unsubscribe

[fustakrakich]

Peoples' choice. There are no laws that restrict who you can vote for. And there's space for write-in candidates.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

Tried that. Any more suggestions?

Re:Unsubscribe

[DragonWriter]

Also, the private sector uses that information to serve me.

They use the information to serve their stockholders. Sometimes, that also involves serving the people from whom the information is gathered, sometimes it involves using are distributing that information in ways that are against the interests of the people from whom it was gathered.

Not really all that different from government, really.

Re:Unsubscribe

[0123456]

Peoples' choice. There are no laws that restrict who you can vote for.

If voting could make a difference, it would be banned. At best, if you dedicate months of your life to doing so, you can replace one guy at the top, who then has to deal with a huge entrenched bureaucracy that wants more money and power and will do whatever it can to get rid of them.

Do you really think, for example, that if Americans were given a free choice of who should be candidates for President this year they would pick... Obama and Romney? There's no better choice in the country than those two?

Re:Unsubscribe

[fustakrakich]

...if Americans were given a free choice of who should be candidates for President this year they would pick... Obama and Romney?

Can you point to me any regulation that stipulates that they must vote for Obama or Romney? American DO have a free choice who to vote for. That they don't exercise it is no fault of the government's.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it doesn't make a difference at the national level. My vote sure doesn't--Mass. last went Republican for Reagan, in 1984, so it's almost a foregone conclusion that my state's electoral votes are going to go to the Democratic candidate. But things like who your state representative or city selectman are make a huge difference in your quality of life. Those folks are accessible enough that you can talk to them directly and a small group of concerned citizens can affect how they vote. They're also early enough in their political careers, as a rule, that the cynicism that afflicts so many career politicians hasn't set in yet. That's why I vote--to vote for those offices. By voting in those elections you also get to pick who will run for higher offices in the future. Today's town selectman is tomorrow's state representative, who's next week's Senator from your state. Republicans figured this out in the 1970s and ran people for everything under the sun including dogcatcher so they could groom the next generation of officeholders.

Re:Unsubscribe

[icebike]

The difference here is that I am not allowed to opt-out of the government's system.

Nor does AT&T have the power of arrest and detention.

Standing up and saying its not Big Brother doesn't make it so.
The sad part is New Yorkers will probably go for this in a heart beat. All you need to do is whisper World Trade Center, and all opposition voices will be drowned out. Take it from me, my sister lords it over me every time this type of issue comes up because she was 6 blocks away on 9/11.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Hatta]

You can actually vote for change, should you accept the challenge.

Millions of people took that challenge in 2008, and they got yet another crook. You can vote for change, yes, but you won't get it.

Re:Unsubscribe

[icebike]

They use the information to serve their stockholders. Sometimes, that also involves serving the people from whom the information is gathered, sometimes it involves using are distributing that information in ways that are against the interests of the people from whom it was gathered.

It has nothing to do with shareholders.
Shareholders would be the first to demand the cell carriers stop handing over cell records to any tin-star sheriff if that were legally possible.
It ads cost, and has no possible upside. Other than that, cell carriers do not use my location for anything except tower load planning.

Re:Unsubscribe

[fustakrakich]

There was plenty of time to properly vet the man. I'm not cutting any slack on this one. And what's worse is that few people are putting up any resistance to the party (both factions) with its fraud being perpetrated in broad daylight, and he will be reelected. Nope... The man in the mirror is the one to blame.

Re:Unsubscribe

[icebike]

Too late. Already been done.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody who voted for Reagan should not be allowed to vote ever again, and actually should be deported as anti-American. And don't blame your losses on "the system". You lost because the majority voted the other way.

Re:Unsubscribe

[KhabaLox]

Or in this case, another city.

Tell that to Muslims in New Jersey.

Re:Unsubscribe

[cheekyjohnson]

Right, how simple that is. I can just... move to another city! Well, when someone gives someone enough money to, they can.

Re:Unsubscribe

[NotSanguine]

Michael Bloomberg is a pompous, egotistical, authoritarian windbag. He has implemented or expanded a variety of obnoxiously authoritarian measures during his tenure, not least of which is the "Stop and Frisk" insanity.

What is more, Hizzonor contravened the will of his constituents by modifying the term limits law (which the people of NYC directly voted for *twice*) in cahoots with the 85% of the city council who would have had to leave office because of the law.

So I for one am not surprised by the effort by Bloomie and his lackey Ray Kelly to further the police state in NYC.

The saddest part about this is that Mayor Bloomberg isn't as huge a jackass as his predecessor, Rudy.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Stirling Newberry]

If you are a consumer of politics, you get to choose what is put on the shelf for you.

Re:Unsubscribe

[WML MUNSON]

Bloomberg is correct in a way: The motivations of both parties are the same. They both want to control your behavior.

Re:Unsubscribe

[nschubach]

If I went out and sold all my stuff ... I'd have plenty of money to move to another state, maybe even a different country. Even if I didn't sell all my stuff, looking at U-haul rates right now ... ~200 miles is about $300-$400 which is enough to get you out of pretty much any state. If you can't save a couple hundred bucks... you have bigger issues than big brother.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

There was plenty of time to properly vet the man. I'm not cutting any slack on this one.

What were voters vetting? That Obama, as shittastic as he is, isn't quite the complete catastrophe that a McCain/Palin presidency would've been?

The idea that individual Americans get to choose who they put in office is hilarious. No, we don't - by virtue of democratic influence on our Republic.

Sorry kids, this isn't buying a table for your living room. Your fellow Americans combine to choose who you can elect. And unlike the table, you can't go to a woodsmith and have something completely custom crafted.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference here is that I am not allowed to opt-out of the government's system.

You can always replace the people who run it. You can actually vote for change, should you accept the challenge. Either way, private or public, the power is in our hands, and when things go wrong, especially on the chronic time scale we're looking at, we have nobody but ourselves to blame. We enable both the dictator and the industrialist who props him up.

Except too many morons want the government to solve all their problems, but then turn around and complain that the government misuses the power they just gave it to solve those problems.

YOU WANT GOV'T HEALTH CARE, THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE PATRIOT ACT!!!!

You want taxes raised to pay for "investments" and so everyone "pays their fair share"?

THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT WARRANTLESS WIRETAPS

Seriously - if you want to give the government all the power to solve all your problems, you really have no room to complain when that power is misused.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

People are fools and idiots with the occasional sprinkle of nutters for flavor.

Re:Unsubscribe

[MrSenile]

Yet I would wager bets that if 80% of Americans could convince their co-patriots to vote for a single person not on the ballet ticket, and they did, infact, select said person who was just a common off the street joe, that it would find a way to be overturned and the 'next winner' who was either of the 2 man running horse would be selected.

Voting and free choice does no good with the ballot box is staged.

It's like this. I fill a barrel full of red apples for apple dunking. You don't like red apples, only green ones.

My answer? Well son, you have free choice to select any apple in that barrel you want, but hey, maybe that rare green apple will be selected. Who knows, someone may have put it in there. Of course, you also have the free choice to not dunk for apples at all.

Then you dunk in the apples and miraculously a green apple is found. They immediately pull it out of your mouth, look at it and say 'oh sorry son, this one had a worm'. But hey, there's still a bunch of red apples you can choose, it's a FREE SELECTION after all.

Don't believe me? Guess we'll just have to wait for the 'free choice of the people' to select someone other than the default lying bureaucrat. Good luck with that. Because you see, why the majority of people agree that the bureaucrat is a lying sack, to convince the majority of the people that voting for a single entity NOT on the ballot box is like the hunt for the white stag. Just won't happen, which is why the American government allows us to select who we want on the ballot. It's something that they know will never amount to anything, but allows us the perception of freedom of choice.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

See that's the thing. We want to give the government *some* power to solve *some* problems. Health care and infrastructure do not fall under the same umbrella as surveillance just because they are both done by the government.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

There are no laws that restrict who you can vote for.

They aren't necessary. If you deviate from the two major parties you'll be joining a much smaller group which is fractured across many third parties.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Genda]

Indeed, however, Antarctic winters tend to be a wee bit chilly.

Re:Unsubscribe

[KhabaLox]

If you can't save a couple hundred bucks... you have bigger issues than big brother.

This is what BB is counting on, and why the system is being rigged to keep people poor.

Re:Unsubscribe

[omnichad]

And how much does it cost to break a lease, pay to get a new driver's license, replace things that break during moving, possibly have time without a job if you're moving too far from your old job, some utilities require a deposit, not to mention if you're a renter that your new place's deposit will be due before you get your other deposit back.

And that's only the short list. I don't feel like thinking up more.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Genda]

However shareholders are perfectly happy with your cell provider selling your whereabouts to the GAP or Starbucks, and make no mistake, if not giving that information to the Government, is going to hurt stock prices one little bit, you my friend are buggered six ways come Sunday.

Re:Unsubscribe

[omnichad]

I'd take dumb over corrupt in most cases. Unless we're talking dumb enough to be tricked by corrupt advisers.

Re:Unsubscribe

[KhabaLox]

You could build all three Little Pigs houses with all that straw.

Re:Unsubscribe

[fustakrakich]

You might be right. But we'll have to wait until that magic moment to see for sure. In the meantime, let's work on the actual cause of the problem. What people are doing now really is no different than a person building another straw house after the first one got blown down by a summer breeze, and then bitches about the weather.

Re:Unsubscribe

[tqk]

I believe you can "opt-out" by moving to another country.

Yes, and since when did "The Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" consider that an option?

Perhaps Bloomberg needs to be better acquainted with Boston harbour?

Re:Unsubscribe

[mcgrew]

They use the information to serve their stockholders.

If I buy a cheap minute phone with cash, the only thing they know is where I am. They don't even know who I am. What good is knowlege of my position to the stockholders without any other information? The "where I am" only benefits the stockholders because without it the phone would be worthless and they would have no income.

Re:Unsubscribe

[SternisheFan]

George Carlin on voting: rge Carlin quotes “I don't vote. Two reasons. First of all it's meaningless; this country was bought and sold a long time ago. The shit they shovel around every 4 years *pfff* doesn't mean a fucking thing. Secondly, I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around –they say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain', but where's the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people into office who screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem; you voted them in; you have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote, who in fact did not even leave the house on election day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with.” George Carlin quotes http://thinkexist.com/quotation/i-don-t-vote-two-reasons-first-of-all-it-s/761194.html

Re:Unsubscribe

[Stirling Newberry]

Yeah that's about the personal ideology of the body boomers: redemption through apathy.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, the private sector uses that information to serve me. The cell phone company knows where I am because they need to connect my calls.

This.

(to phone company): It's your business to know where I go.
(to cops): It's none of your business where I go.

Re:Unsubscribe

[kiwimate]

The system will gather data as described in the article.

The Domain Awareness System will draw data from 911 calls, previous crime reports, license-plate readers, law-enforcement databases, environmental sensors, and roughly 3,000 closed-circuit cameras

911 calls - the police have access to these by default, to serve the public. (Going back to someone else's comment that the phone company needs to know where your cell-phone is at all times so they can serve you by connecting your calls.)

Previous crime reports, law enforcement databases - this is the police department's job, in the interests of public safety.

License plate readers, environmental sensors, closed circuit cameras - I suspect this is what's annoying people commenting on this story. Look at it this way - it's just gathering data based on what people on the streets see every day. Closed circuit cameras aren't peering behind closed doors into private areas; they're in public areas and you can generally see them if you look for them. License plate readers - you're driving your car, you have a license plate, anyone can see it if they are looking.

There have been debates about Google sniffing data from broadcasting routers (SSID names), and what they get from Google Street View. Which is worse? Is one worse than the other?

At least I can look up and see a CCTV. I wasn't home the day the Google car took a snapshot of my house and my car in the driveway...

Re:Unsubscribe

[Tokolosh]

From Wikipedia:

"Unlike most countries, the United States taxes its citizens on worldwide income, whether or not they are resident in the United States. To deter tax avoidance by abandonment of citizenship, the United States imposes an Expatriation Tax on those who abandon U.S. citizenship. The tax also applies to green-card holders who abandon U.S. permanent residence, if they have been resident for 8 of the last 15 years, whether or not they are emigrating to avoid tax."

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

This is only true if you reject any semblance of nuance and so distill the issue down to power vs no power. This is almost pure strawman. Power to do one thing is not automatically power to do another.

It's like taking scotch, filtering out all the things that make scotch what it is until you're left with nothing but ethanol and water, then bitching about how it's no different then any other alcohol that you've filtered in a similar fashion.

Re:Unsubscribe

[JonySuede]

can I use that as a sig :

You are a consumer of politics, you get to choose what is put on the shelf for you.
--Stirling Newberry

Re:Unsubscribe

[SternisheFan]

But it's the truth, hate to pop your bubble there. As another person posted here, your vote only counts at the local level. Bush Junior was not elected (the first time, anyway.), he was "installed". And all the people bitchin' here about rights and legality, you know what? The powers that be want what's happening in N.Y'C. to happen, and that as they say is that. Learn to deal with disappointment.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Stirling Newberry]

Voting is consuming politics, not producing it.

Re:Unsubscribe

[JohnFen]

Yes, things like CCTV and license plate readers are a seriously problematic issue, but the deeper problem is the aggregation of all the data. Even if each individual piece is not controversial or particularly sensitive in isolate, when you put them all together, the result couldn't get much more invasive.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

fear fear fear oh my! Those muslims!

Re:Unsubscribe

[davydagger]

among other things.....

they connect your calls via packet switching. there is no reason that anyone in the cell company needs to be tracking your location but the towers and switches.

Re:Unsubscribe

[davydagger]

really??? why is that?

Tell me the shareholders of any company really give two shits of anything besides the stock price going up and divedend increasing.

Tell me that a shareholder of any company would say "hey, we can screw the company less, and I could make less dividends while decreasing the value of my stock". Or even POTENTIALLY decrease them.

Or even risk a confrontation with the law that might result in more regulations later on.

Re:Unsubscribe

[davydagger]

wait mabey they would.

Sheriffs aren't paying for customer data. If they were paying for it like everyone else, none of them greedy fuckheads would object.

Re:Unsubscribe

[davydagger]

the cellphone company can hand your data over to people who might intimidate and harass you.

they could easily socially engineer the police to arrest you.

Re:Unsubscribe

[icebike]

The major stock holders all care about all those things.

The small holders are just along for the ride are just.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Mr.CRC]

It's only a straw man if it's a pure argument. In this case it isn't, it is supported by empirically observable reality throughout all of history. So it's a hypothesis at least. Nearly a law of nature at best.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Igloodude]

Perhaps Bloomberg needs to be better acquainted with Boston harbour?

Indeed so, but no issue with federal kidnapping charges if you just dump him in the East River instead.

Or is that not what you meant? *innocent look*

Re:Unsubscribe

[DragonWriter]

Shareholders would be the first to demand the cell carriers stop handing over cell records to any tin-star sheriff if that were legally possible.
It ads cost, and has no possible upside.

You know what else adds costs? Refusing, and then having the "tin-star sheriff" seek subpoenas, and then paying lawyers to fight to quash the subpoenas, and then losing a percentage of the cases and still bearing the costs of handing over the data in those cases.

Also, there are PR costs when the refusal is painted (accurately or not) by the "tin-star sheriff" as a contributing factor in the inability to prevent a substantive crime.

Moreso, there are even bigger costs to shareholders if the event of the type describe in the previous paragraph creates enough off a PR stain that it leads to less favorable reception to the corporations interests by politicians.

Re:Unsubscribe

[icebike]

Reading comprehension 101: Read ALL THE WAY to the END of a sentence.

stop handing over cell records to any tin-star sheriff if that were legally possible.

How can you quote something and STILL miss it?

Re:Unsubscribe

[tqk]

Perhaps Bloomberg needs to be better acquainted with Boston harbour?

Indeed so, but no issue with federal kidnapping charges if you just dump him in the East River instead.

From what I've heard, that may constitute "cruel and unusual punishment", which may be illegal under your Constitution, yes?

Or is that not what you meant? *innocent look*

*Smirk* back at ya.

Re:Unsubscribe

[kiwimate]

But why are they a problematic issue if Google doing street view shots and sniffing your SSID isn't a problem in the eyes of many Slashdotters? This is what I do not get - and especially given that Google is all about combining everything. Your search history, GMail, blah blah blah...

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

66 Seriously - if you want to give the government all the power to solve all your problems, you really have no room to complain when that power is misused. 99

It's the typical outlook of college students and their crusty, smelly, bearded, angry professors who despise all who live better than them.

Re:Unsubscribe

[AmberBlackCat]

What happens if the country, whose laws are oppressing you, has a way of compelling other countries to have the same laws, and destroying the ones who don't comply?

Re:Unsubscribe

[SourceFrog]

You can't really be serious. You can't tell the difference between a private company and a government? Really? That's a difficult question for you?

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't despise people who live better than me; I am sufficiently American to assume that they deserve it somehow. I just think there should be reasonable limits. I am a productive member of society by any rational measurement: I have had a job since turning seventeen (over twenty years ago), do good work, and make a decent wage. I consider my compensation fair, perhaps even more than fair. If someone can make twice what I make, that's fine, good for them. Five times, even ten times, okay, maybe they are a brilliant person in a more important field, I might be able to make up excuses for that. Three hundred times? That's looting. It is nearly impossible to do work that is objectively worth three hundred times what my work is worth. Five hundred times? Thousands of times? C'mon. Jonas Salk didn't make that kind of money. Neither did Einstein, Tesla, nor any astronaut. But investment bankers have it coming somehow? At some point, you cannot be reasonably said to be earning what you make.

Re:Unsubscribe

[NotSanguine]

Except too many morons want the government to solve all their problems, but then turn around and complain that the government misuses the power they just gave it to solve those problems.

YOU WANT GOV'T HEALTH CARE, THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE PATRIOT ACT!!!!

You want taxes raised to pay for "investments" and so everyone "pays their fair share"?

THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT WARRANTLESS WIRETAPS

Seriously - if you want to give the government all the power to solve all your problems, you really have no room to complain when that power is misused.

You've got the right idea with the false comparisons, but the execution is way too transparent. Keep working on it and someday you might actually convince a moron or two.

How about this? If you want government health care, then support a real single-payer system because it's more cost-effective, efficient and as is seen across the developed world, provides quality health care to just about everyone while spending less per capita.

Or maybe...If you want to create a vibrant, prosperous and peaceful society, support an equitable tax code which generates a revenue stream that can support quality public services like education, a social safety net, basic scientific research, maintenance and modernization of infrastructure, etc., etc., etc.

Perhaps...If you want to live in a country that respects its residents, citizen and non-citizen alike. A country with expansive civil liberties, tolerance and a generally satisfied populace, then fight against laws like the Patriot Act. Demand the freedoms guaranteed by our constitution and its amendments. Force the government to clean house and ensure that we are not spied upon, tracked or otherwise harassed by the government unless there is enough evidence to convince an impartial court to issue warrants authorizing such activities. Rail against the wholesale surveillance of millions of innocent people.

See how much better it works when the elements you include actually have some relation to each other?

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still looking for a place I can move... the options are very limited given my abilities. I can't speak a foreign language and it is likely I'll never be able to either. English was hard enough to learn the first time around.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Aryden]

And when they DO point them at your house and peer in? All it takes is 1 lonely SOB. But here's a realistic scenario for you. A guy drives from 1 side of town to the other to see a friend. While he's driving across town, a bodega, a starbucks and a bank get robbed. Now, when the police review camera footage from those areas, they see this car that has appeared in the areas these crimes occurred, at roughly the right times. So now, this perfectly innocent man is a person of interest. Circumstantial evidence is still enough to get him screwed over in a hurry if the wrong judge is sitting the day they seek your warrant. And, it's not like they can't won't manufacture evidence or just flat out lie to get the warrant for him.

In many states, your vehicle is considered an extension of your home. If you allow things like this, then the next logical leap is that you must be also giving them permission to watch your home day and night, after all, what do you have to hide?

Re:Unsubscribe

[nschubach]

You know you don't have to move... right now. Right? You can wait a few months, grin and bear it. When you get a new job and/or get the money to move, you do it. Nobody is keeping you there. I've never known a utility that required a deposit, and as far as rental deposit... you don't have to move right now. If you are bound and determined to move, you'll save up what it costs to move.

I don't like the whole aspect of Big Brother, but we do have the freedom to freely move to any other location in this country without a Visa or other documents. That's why it's so vitally important to keep federal laws lean and let the States compete for your tax dollars.

Re:Unsubscribe

[omnichad]

Believe it or not, I had to pay a $150 deposit for water when I moved to the town I'm in now.

Re:Unsubscribe

[nschubach]

That seems really excessive to me. Did you ask what the point of that large of a deposit for water was? I think my biggest water bill (including sewer) has been $50. That was when I had a pipe burst because my neighbor moved out and left the heat off.

Re:Unsubscribe

[omnichad]

My highest has been $40 so far. I won't see that $150 again until I move away.

Re:Unsubscribe

[JohnFen]

I think Google's data collection is very problematic as well. However, the threat google poses is quite a bit lower than the threat that the government poses (theoretically. If google shares it's data with government agencies, then the threat is identical.)

Re:Unsubscribe

[LienRag]

Actually, for a center-right wall-street-friendly president, Obama is quite a good candidate...

Re:Unsubscribe

[Reziac]

If you keep poor people poor, then give them a welfare handout, you have absolutely bought and can count on their votes.

Keeping them poor without a reward will, conversely, bring out the flaming pitchforks.

Re:Unsubscribe

[Anonymous Coward]

"The party" puts up two puppets once every four years so the people can choose which face they see while they're f***ed by the party. With this, the people think they're free.

The Difference

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference, of course, is that only government holds the special "right" to employ physical force as a business model. Private business can only hurt you with the blessing of government. Government can hurt you at will, and with no recourse.

Re:The Difference

[speed_rrracer]

The difference, of course, is that only government holds the special "right" to employ physical force as a business model. Private business can only hurt you with the blessing of government. Government can hurt you at will, and with no recourse.

not only government

For the time being, we still have this thing called the 2nd Amendment. It's purpose is to remind the government that the people have the special right to employ physical force as a corrective measure against tyrannical governments.

Re:The Difference

[NettiWelho]

Government can hurt you at will, and with no recourse.

If that was the case, US would still be part of the British empire.

Re:The Difference

[NeutronCowboy]

Private business can only hurt you with the blessing of government. Government can hurt you at will, and with no recourse.

Correction: private business can hurt you either with the blessing of government, or in the absence of government. Government, in a democracy (and yes, the US is a type of democracy), can hurt you for as long as people are voted in who hurt you.

The benefit of democracy isn't representation. The benefit is the bloodless revolution and changing of the guard that is possible every X years. The benefit of private business isn't that it is an optional relationship. It's that its power is checked by everyone making up the private business sector.

Re:The Difference

[NettiWelho]

The benefit of democracy isn't representation. The benefit is the bloodless revolution and changing of the guard that is possible every X years.

Too bad that the US is locked in perpetual cycle of 'meet the new boss same as the old boss' because of its 2 party system.

Re:The Difference

[NeutronCowboy]

You're a moron. If the US becomes a tyranny, it will be because a majority of the US voters want one. You don't need the second amendment to throw out the government in a properly working democracy. You only need it if you disagree with the results of the majority, and think that the current state of affairs entitles you to shoot those who you disagree with.

The fantasy that a democratically elected government will suddenly turn on you like a rabid animal is an utter fantasy that has zero precedent in history. For every example that you bring up, I will show you how it happened with the tacit approval of the power structure in the country, or because the government had been dissolved and replaced by an authoritarian regime - generally after a significant armed struggle took place. And no matter how few guns are in place before an armed struggle takes place, there's going to be a flood of weapons available during it.

In short, your second amendment will either be completely redundant (there's already a war going on, and the constitution is going to be ignored right and left), or should be unused (the ballot still works).

Re:The Difference

[NeutronCowboy]

Which has all to do with voter education, and nothing with the usefulness of the second amendment.

Re:The Difference

[Anonymous Coward]

For the time being, we still have this thing called the 2nd Amendment. It's purpose is to remind the government that the people have the special right to employ physical force as a corrective measure against tyrannical governments.

"Go ahead. Make my day." ~Government

Re:The Difference

[NettiWelho]

I never mentioned the 2nd amendment.

Re:The Difference

[NeutronCowboy]

Apologies - that was the scope of another post I wrote, and what I had in mind when I wrote the initial response here. The general tack is generally that the government has a monopoly on violence, and to counteract the abuse of that monopoly, we have the second amendment.

So yes, nothing to do with your argument that we're locked into near identical choices, due to the fact that we have two choices that need to appeal to very broad swathes of the US voting public.

Re:The Difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Name-calling, eh?

No, YOU are the fucking moron.

Because democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Just because a majority votes for it doesn't make it non-tyrannical, you shallow non-thinking twit.

You started the name calling. You should have kept your trap shut and let everyone just think you might be stupid. But no, you had to open your pie hole and remove all doubt.

Re:The Difference

[NeutronCowboy]

Because democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Just because a majority votes for it doesn't make it non-tyrannical, you shallow non-thinking twit.

I knew there was a reason why I'm not in the habit of responding to ACs. Tired memes, no substantive thinking and no capacity to read is about 90% of AC posts. Come on, give me at least ONE sentence that isn't based on some trite adage or sound bite with no legs.

Re:The Difference

[NeutronCowboy]

Oh wait - the original poster wasn't an AC. Now there's the possibility that dear speed_rrracer is so worried about Karma and has so little faith in his beliefs that he'd rather post as an AC than continue the discussion, or.... well, just another random AC. Fun times.

Re:The Difference

[misexistentialist]

Don't see how a "flood of weapons" is guaranteed in times of disturbance--sometimes even governments run out of rifles for their own combat soldiers. Though I'll agree that the populace will likely accept whatever big shot gets his hand on the lever of power, but it's nice to at least retain the right to shoot yourself.

Re:The Difference

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference, of course, is that only government holds the special "right" to employ physical force as a business model. Private business can only hurt you with the blessing of government. Government can hurt you at will, and with no recourse.

Strange. You speak as if there is still a difference between the two entities in today's world.

Re:The Difference

[Anonymous Coward]

How the cunt do you figure that?

The British empire went to FUCKING WAR with the pilgrims! Many people died.

Re:The Difference

[drkstr1]

I take it you have never heard of social engineering. Just spend a moment and think about what a few sociopaths could do if they owned ALL of the major media outlets. Now why would you assume they don't do this? Im not saying its the worst system for distribution of power mankind has come up with, but dont fool yourself into thinking it's something it's not.

Re:The Difference

[Anonymous Coward]

You're arguing against objective logic with subjective opinion. The theory of democracy is of no interest to me, and it is certainly of no interest to objective reality. As an anology, the fact that the US government "tries to avoid" killing innocents is of no interest to those innocents or their families. The only thing that matters to them is the fact that their loved ones are dead -- and rightly so.

Reality is the bottom line, and the reality is that democracy has given rise to the most powerful, most expensive, most destructive superpower governments in history -- and they only expand in power and revenue over time, never permanently or significantly relinquishing power.

Futhermore, you have no grounds to argue that private business will hurt you (on the average I'm assuming) in the absence of government. Nobody on earth knows what absence of government is, because the entire world has been dominated by organized coercion (i.e. government, either official or unofficial) since long before our time. Before you say "Somalia", realize that organized coercion takes many forms: democracy, monarchy, communism, and yes, the rag-tag local warlords of Somalia. Whether organized coercion is voted on or not, or whether they have official uniforms, or space-age weapons, or recognition by other instances of organized coercion -- all of that is absolutely irrelevant to objective reality.

So what?

[Mitreya]

If you walk around with a cell phone, the cell phone company knows where you are

And if I have a bank account, then the bank knows how much money I have or what all my transactions are. That doesn't mean police gets to use that information indiscriminately/without a warrant.

Re:So what?

[denis-The-menace]

Do you see the mention of warrants in his proposal?

None

It's all automatic like DMCA takedowns.
Guilty until proven innocent.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it does AND they can lie to you all they want legally to get a confession.

Hijab

[bugs2squash]

What we need is the human equivalent of license plate "protectors". I foresee a new fashion trend...

Re:Hijab

[Nkwe]

What we need is the human equivalent of license plate "protectors". I foresee a new fashion trend...

You mean like a hoodie?

Re:Hijab

[RobertLTux]

which then causes a law to be passed that within X feet of "critical locations" it is a crime to have your hood UP.

btw in NC it is illegal to have anything covering/obscuring the plate

Re:Hijab

[Anonymous Coward]

And if I recall correctly the governor was exclaiming on how the bill (she was either signing it or speaking for its passage) was stopping all of those terrible criminals and terrorists from their wanton acts of preventing their license plates from properly cataloged by the state. Of course she was forgetting to mention that 99.9 percent of the time those readers were logging innocent (at least in laymen's terms, seeing as how we could all probably be convicted of multiple felonies due to the complexity of today's laws) peoples activities for no purpose other than mass surveillance.

Re:Hijab

[Anonymous Coward]

It's already illegal in New York to wear a face covering (i.e. mask of any kind).

If it becomes an issue, they will simply "update" the law to cover (hah) anything that covers the head.

CAPTCHA bonus: buildups.

Re:Hijab

[VortexCortex]

What we need is the human equivalent of license plate "protectors". I foresee a new fashion trend...

You mean like a hoodie?

Yeah, a hoodie with a full face hood, you know, like a ski mask, or a Scramble Suit.

Prediction: RF Proof wallet makers will make RF proof cell phone cases and purses.

Re:Hijab

[Anonymous Coward]

I forsee gangs marking themselves as McCaffery and Moon predicted in Sassinak: www.baenebooks.com/chapters/067169863X/067169863X___4.htm

You mean the same wireless network...

[Anonymous Coward]

That was shown to be hopelessly insecure at this year's DefCon?

http://t.co/hQLAwPg5

Why MS logo on the header?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont get it.. what's microsoft have to do with this??

Re:Why MS logo on the header?

[gregulator]

They built the system FOR the NYPD.

They also are doing some sort of a profit sharing venture with the NYPD on this software.

Re:Why MS logo on the header?

[gtirloni]

NYPD and profit sharing?

Re:Why MS logo on the header?

[gregulator]

FTA: "It’s a potential moneymaker for the city, which will earn 30 percent of the gross revenues on the sale of the platform to other customers."

System Will Put New Yorkers Under Police Surveilla

[Anne_Nonymous]

>> System Will Put New Yorkers Under Police Surveillance

This is a great idea... in Soviet Russia.

Why are you so bitter?

[cpu6502]

That would be the response from my "friends" if I posted this on facebook. They just don't see anything wrong with this level of surveillance (or police ramming-down your door and shooting you).

Re:Why are you so bitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it's better to let oneself die or be abused than stand out, you know?

Re:Why are you so bitter?

[cheekyjohnson]

Maybe they believe the society described in 1984 is a utopia, or that when someone gets into the government, they become perfect beings incapable of making mistakes or abusing their powers.

Re:Why are you so bitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they are shitheads who don't think about anything beyond what is happening on the day, in their immediate surroundings.

Re:Why are you so bitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because THEY ARE NOT INDIVIDUALS! They are programmed drones with no own free will. Trained to memorize and be obedient. And to think "belief" was something completely normal and not at all FUCKING PERVERSE AND SICK.

They are limbs of their opinion makers. You can NOT see them as humans. They are NOT humans. They are NOT individuals.

Go for the head, if you want to fix it. Talking to them is like talking to your big toe. It can’t think. It has no own will or brain. Talk to the head!

Just the beginning

[Anonymous Coward]

This being North America, just watch, all that data will soon be leased to advertisement firms for even more brainwa.. err.. targeted advertisement.

What does this have to do with Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just curious?

Re:What does this have to do with Microsoft?

[JohnFen]

They built the system.

"We're not your mom and pop's police department"

[John Hasler]

No. You're our Big Brother's police department.

Re:System Will Put New Yorkers Under Police Survei

[ApplePy]

Soviet Russia's KGB in its wildest wet dreams never imagined the level of Big Brother surveillance that the US government/corporate partnership could put into place here with modern technology. By contrast, the Soviet citizen of 1980 had far more privacy and anonymity.

Even in public, I value my privacy

[Tastecicles]

@Mitreya: the police can and do seize cell location data without warrant, I've seen it happen (in the referred instance it did put a man away for 18-to-life for burning down his parent's house, nearly killing his entire family. When information like that is referred to in a court of Law, warrant or not the jury can't unhear what's been said no matter how adamantly the judge insists on it. That unwarranted seizure is the ONLY thing that put the guy away).

Which is why the cellphone stays HOME. Where I go and what I do is my business. Take it as read that my activities are completely lawful.
I carry a simplex personal mobile radio in case I need to communicate with anyone out of earshot. The people I need to talk to have similar equipment. The only time the thing transmits is when I key that button.

Sad

[Mephistophocles]

Mayor Bloomberg argued that the system isn't an example of Big Brother overstepping the line.

That shouldn't even be up for debate here. If we're taking up that debate with the Mayor, then we've already fallen for his straw-man and are missing the point completely. Of COURSE it's overstepping the line; that's obvious and doesn't need debate. The real problem here is that New Yorkers aren't fighting stuff like this for all they're worth - non-violent whenever possible, violent when necessary. And yes, that's constitutionally protected free speech.

For now, Bloomberg, you evil fiend, I hope this at least destroys whatever tourist traffic is left in the big apple. I, for one, will not ever be traveling to your city as long as this crap exists (and it's a shame, because there is much about New York that I love).

Re:Sad

[ks*nut]

It is sad. I loved going to New York when I lived in New Jersey and could get there by bus. I have vowed to never travel by air as long as the overzealous TSA/DHS tactics remain. It's a pity because I would love to see the Cloisters again and spend some time in lower Manhattan just to see the Village and old WTC site, Natural History Museum, Times Square. And it's not progress, it's stupidity.

Re:Sad

[akb]

non-violent whenever possible, violent when necessary. And yes, that's constitutionally protected free speech.

I was unaware that violence was Constitutionally protected speech. Please explain.

Re:Sad

[Anonymous Coward]

I like how you accidentally copied the part about about tourist traffic, especially since it's the most unrealistic idea in your post. What fraction of tourists visiting New York are even going to know about this, or would even care if they did?

Re:Sad

[Mephistophocles]

Wow, have a lot of trouble thinking in a straight line, do you?

Speech is what's protected here. Therefore, it isn't the violence which is protected by free speech, but my statement regarding the violence.
Hope I cleared that up for ya'.

Re:Sad

[CAIMLAS]

I can see there being a rise in vandal tourism.

Drive in from PA or NJ, spraypaint, hammer, or otherwise deface the sensors, and go home.

I suspect it won't be long before you won't be able to use public transit there without a state-issued and federally-monitored ID. And when people start bypassing that by sharing? They'll mandate they're embedded.

Re:Sad

[girlintraining]

You forget; Ever since 9/11, New York has been the center of the New World Order as far as law enforcement actions are concerned. Surrounding Wall Street with deployable barricades to cut off street traffic, and building walls around other parts of it... surveillance cameras everywhere; RF monitoring, facial recognition, airport scanners... every new law enforcement technology or method comes to New York first. And it's citizens are happy for the attention. It means the government is spending a fortune modernizing their antiquidated infrastructure. And large parts of the state are built on swamp land; no joke. There are sewers that were build in the 1700s that are still being used today there. It's a stagnant cesspool.

Re:Sad

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to Food Nazi's version of Theroux's "O-zone".

"NYPD! Put down that 32-oz. and come out slowly, with your hands up! Do it!. Do it NOOWWW!"

Re:Sad

[Anonymous Coward]

Wups. "Diet Czar", then.

Sounds good to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, so we'll be able to use the exact same system to monitor police brutality and illegal acts and be able to swiftly bring the perpetrators to justice. If the police have no problem using the system on us then they can't have a problem with us using it on them... right?

Re:Sounds good to me

[Aryden]

But they somehow lost the tape, or it was never recorded or the data is corrupt or it would take too long to produce the footage.... You know better.

Person of interest, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

(the TV show, ofc)

CrimeRank

[Anonymous Coward]

10 years from now...

Narrator: Much like web pages have a Google Pagerank, we can give people a CrimeRank based on how likely they are to commit a crime based on who there seen near or who they are connected to, along with analysis of behavior patterns. When their crimerank gets to high we just send the drones out to track them and incapacitate them until the authorities arrive. The whole thing can run completely automated and everything will be just fine as long as we never turn it off. If we turn it off, their will be chaos. If the defendent asks why he was arrested we will tell him that the algorithm is secret .... so we can't tell him. If people knew how the algorithm worked then they would find ways around it and we can't have that! Before all this police relied on guesswork and unreliable or intimidated witnesses and inconvienient and difficult to process material evidece to make their case. Thankfully, with CrimeRank, we just push a button, the drones fly out and the crime problem is solved!

There are laws restricting who you can elect

[DragonWriter]

There are no laws that restrict who you can vote for.

Sure there are, at least if you want your vote to count. There are laws that restrict who can be elected to each and every elected public office in the country. Sometimes, the restrictions are things like age, citizenship, and duration of residency in a particular region, but sometimes they are more involved.

What happened to NYPD?

[Mister_Stoopid]

Seriously, what happened? Have they always been a mustache-twirling, comically evil organization? Did they make Lex Luthor the police chief on 9/12/2001?

Not reassuring.

[Eevee]

We're not your mom and pop's police department anymore.'"

Becoming the Stasi isn't an improvement.

Re:Not reassuring.

[notNeilCasey]

My mom and pop were East Germans, you insensitive clod!

Re:Not reassuring.

[Anonymous Coward]

My sincerest condolences.

Businesss... government... it's still big brother.

[sl3xd]

Businesses shouldn't be allowed to collect data that the government can't.

Government shouldn't be allowed to collect data because "the private sector already does this."

I had the misfortune to attend a conference a few weeks ago where salesmen were being taught about "big data" by marketdroids.

These guys were drooling about wholesale intrusion into the most private aspects of our lives.

It really is the rise of big brother. The fact that it is a corporation instead of government is of little practical value; monitoring data gives those who have it power, and that power will always be abused - and will result in ruined or destroyed lives, reduced freedom, and corrupt leadership (whether government or corporate).

Data-fed?

[AdrianKemp]

What, exactly, is a non data-fed monitoring system? What exactly would it monitor if not data?

Doesn't justify

[Skapare]

Just because the private sector is doing wrong things, it doesn't justify the city doing wrong things.

New York City sounds like Hell

[Anonymous Coward]

Just another perfect example out of many why I have no desire whatsoever to set foot in New York City.
So many people crammed into an overpriced concrete jungle with no privacy and no rights... sounds like Hell to me.

Re:New York City sounds like Hell

[SternisheFan]

Just another perfect example out of many why I have no desire whatsoever to set foot in New York City. So many people crammed into an overpriced concrete jungle with no privacy and no rights... sounds like Hell to me.

New York City is both heaven & hell at times. People who live/work and pay taxes there rightfully expect society's protection.of their rights. Like the Right to not be killed and robbed and raped and mugged, all of which happens more in large cities. I can't scream about my rights from inside a coffin, after I got killed by some thug who wasn't caught by surveillance and jailed after comitting his other crimes. You want to be be safer in N.Y.C., then it has to cost you some. Everyone crying about my 'rights' here should grow the ***k up and face reality for what it is. Sheesh, what a bunch of crybabies! Life sucks sometimes, and we don't always get what we want. It's a complicated life, especially in N.Y., but it is no way like Stalin's Russia! Just this and future generations will need yo make sure that there remains a balance of security for the people AND basic personal rights, just like past generations have done. With tech today it's just going to be harder to stay on top of things. No place for whiners.

Re:New York City sounds like Hell

[Anonymous Coward]

Whiners? Ok then strip search RIGHT NOW! To keep us safe

Re:New York City sounds like Hell

[Anonymous Coward]

What's being done in NYC is how a Stalanist system starts. I'm tired of weak willed people willing alway my rights. I hope you ejoy your enslavement.

Re:New York City sounds like Hell

[SternisheFan]

What's being done in NYC is how a Stalanist system starts. I'm tired of weak willed people willing alway my rights. I hope you ejoy your enslavement.

says the brave AC.

Corruption is the problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand why 'big brother' makes a person who considers themselves free, deeply suspicious. However surely the problem is not the system but the corrupt entities that may attempt to use the system for nefarious purposes.

Whatever your version of what big brother may be, the fact is that the technology required to deliver such a system will happen. We should be discussing the benefits of such a system, and discussing some air tight laws to define how such a system is used and that it cannot ever be corrupted.

Fighting against the inevitable only has one conclusion.

Re:Corruption is the problem.

[cheekyjohnson]

Uh, no. They're the government. As long as people pay attention and actually do something, they can be controlled. That's being optimistic, but it's at least possible.

So rather than having useless laws that won't stop abuse, just get rid of the systems that allow for abuse unless they're absolutely essential.

Re:Corruption is the problem.

[Mr.CRC]

The "system" and "corrupt entities that may attempt to use the system for nefarious purposes" are like two sides of a coin. You cannot have one without the other. Until you see why that is, you are part of the problem.

Patriots!

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> that echoes DARPA'sTotal Information Awareness,
> which I guess is more diplomatic than just calling it Precrime

And way, way, wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more diplomatic than calling it Big Brother.

Four less years!

[doglikegroove]

This is what happens when the greatest city in the world lets a jackal co-opt a third term.

AT&T know where you are, we want to be like th

[KhabaLox]

Mayor Bloomberg argued that the system isn't an example of Big Brother overstepping the line. 'What you're seeing is what the private sector has used for a long time,' he told Gothamist. 'If you walk around with a cell phone, the cell phone company knows where you are. We're not your mom and pop's police department anymore.'"

How in the hell is that statement supposed to make me feel comfortable?

Do it to the police too.

[gurps_npc]

Every single room in a police station (aside from the bathrooms) and every single police car should be under constant surveillance, going directly to the Internal Affairs office, and is also recorded and retained for a minimum of 10 years.

If the video is not shown, then by law, the cops should not be allowed to testify about what they saw, heard, said, or did. I.e. it should be assumed that the cops destroyed the evidence to allow them to lie.

Re:Do it to the police too.

[Anonymous Coward]

it should be assumed that the cops destroyed the evidence to allow them to lie.

I'm pretty sure all the anti-cop hate around here is caused by marijuana.

Re:Do it to the police too.

[ThatsMyNick]

Nope I am pretty sure it is caused by cops being dicks. Last week I was pulling out from a night club, and I got pulled over. I did not have a single alcoholic drink, so I was pretty sure I was fine. The cop got me out to do the standardized test (I am pretty sure he couldn't have smelled alcohol on me or see me drive unsafely, as I never drank), And then came the Breathalyzers, which the cop made me take thrice, just to make sure the reading was correct. He let me go, only after I refused to take it the fourth time. I am pretty sure he was hoping for a false reading. I now know I can legally refuse all of these tests in my state (unless I am already under arrest of course).

Re:Do it to the police too.

[SternisheFan]

So, a cop pulls over a car leaving a nightclub, and makes sure that person isn't going to kill someone driving drunk. How is that officer being a dick? Sounds like he was helping to protect the public's safety.

Re:Do it to the police too.

[ThatsMyNick]

First, the cop had no reason to pull me over. There is this thing called probable cause, and the cop had none. And how often does Breathalyzer give a false reading? I hope it is not very often. If so the cop had no reason to test me thrice and ask for fourth time. And he couldnt have smelled alcohol on me, and I believe I passed the standardized test in flying colors. He had no reason to give me a breathalyzer test, he still went a head with it. The only reason I could think was that he was hoping for a false reading, so that he could book me, even though he knew well that I am sober. If that is not being a dick, I dont know what is.

Re:Do it to the police too.

[Hatta]

Without probable cause, it's illegal. Cops who break the law are dicks. People like you who encourage the police to go on fishing expeditions are also dicks.

Re:Do it to the police too.

[CAIMLAS]

By that logic, regular checkpoints should be put up all along public roadways. It's for public safety, of course. Right?

Re:Do it to the police too.

[SternisheFan]

I'm not saying cops can't be dicks, elsewhere here I've written about a false arrest that happened to me, the cop threw me to the ground and jumped onto my lower back with his knee, I'm going to feel that for the rest of my life. I've known both good and bad cops in my 50+ years, mostly good cops, one 'dicky' one. Yeah, he had no cause to pull you over, but he did! You played it right, cooperated, even though it wasn't fair, and went home to your own bed that night. If he was a real dick of a cop, he would've planted evidence in your car and you'ld be doing some time in the 'steel hilton', easy for a dick cop to do. Nowadays, you've got to be smart when dealing with the police, like you were, and have a recorder going, if possible.

Re:Do it to the police too.

[Yakasha]

Without probable cause, it's illegal.

IANAL:
Not quite. Cops can perform searches under 3 conditions: warrant, probable cause, or consent.
If you agree to get out of your car, they can pat you down for weapons.
If you agree to a breathalyzer test, they can administer it.
If they see you weaving, they already have enough to take you to the station. If not, they don't.
If stopped by a cop, and they have nothing, don't help them. Only 3 things should be coming out of your mouth:
1. Name, Home Address, Date of Birth
2. Am I being detained / Am I free to go?
3. I need to speak with a lawyer before I respond to any more questions.

Remember, "Anything you say" starts immediately when you're born and runs long after you're dead. Even answering Yes/No/Maybe/I don't know to such silly questions as "Have you had anything to drink tonight?" can and will be used against you, and probably in ways you wouldn't expect.

"I've got 99 problems, being a bitch aint one" - Jay-Z
So in conclusion, don't be a bitch.

And to the original poster that got stopped: Next time start "Cop Recorder", and get a badge #. If he pulled you over without at least a broken taillight, that was an illegal detainment. So get it on tape and press charges (So you know, they won't go anywhere, but its a start). Cops must be taught they are NOT in charge of us.

Re:Do it to the police too.

[SternisheFan]

Without probable cause, it's illegal. Cops who break the law are dicks. People like you who encourage the police to go on fishing expeditions are also dicks.

Yep, it's illegal. And you're pulled over by a bad cop on a lonely road, are you telling me that you're going to start screaming at him about how his pulling you over is illegal? Right! Maybe you do that later in a courtroom, but on that lonely road alone with that cop, in reality, you only have whatever rights he decides to grant you, And that's the reality of the situation, you mouth off to the wrong cop about 'your rights' at the wrong time, you very well could become a case for martyrdom, later. Me, I'd rather, if possible, play the system as it really is and die a free man of old age. As Howard Stern's father is known to say, "Don't be stupid, you moron!" ;-)

Re:Do it to the police too.

[Hatta]

So you're well aware of the problems caused by bad cops, and you want to give them more power?

Me, I'd rather, if possible, play the system as it really is and die a free man of old age.

The way things are going there won't be any free men left in NYC, if there are even any now.

Re:Do it to the police too.

[Mr.CRC]

By that logic, regular checkpoints should be put up all along public roadways. It's for public safety, of course. Right?

I thought they already were put up?

Re:Do it to the police too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't exempt the bathrooms. Remember what happened to Abner Louima in the bathroom of the 70th Precinct?

Re:Do it to the police too.

[SternisheFan]

So you're well aware of the problems caused by bad cops, and you want to give them more power?*** I don't want that, it's what's happening whether or not I want it to. I'm dealing with the reality of what is happening.

Me, I'd rather, if possible, play the system as it really is and die a free man of old age.

The way things are going there won't be any free men left in NYC, if there are even any now.

In a war, you don't always win every battle. The trick is to survive long enough to win the war.

Name

[fa2k]

"Total Information Awareness" sounds pretty horrible, if *that* is the euphemism.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

How did a crook like Bloomberg

[Mister Liberty]

... ever become mayor of a city like New York. That's what I wonder.

As far as I recall the big Apple used to be one of the the freest places
a critical thinker could live in. Now it it seems just like a reactionaries'
hub.

And why don't Newyorkers just give this guy Bloomberg the boot.

Re:How did a crook like Bloomberg

[Genda]

Because he's an ex-banker, and the banks love him, so with Wall street firmly behind him, he can screw the rest of the city with impunity. Welcome to our new ruling class, and if you don't like it we have indoctrination training you're just gonna love.

Re:How did a crook like Bloomberg

[zlives]

"And why don't Newyorkers just give this Fucktard the boot." FTFY

Re:How did a crook like Bloomberg

[davydagger]

come election time he's great at creating sound bites to make people care.

bring this up, and people will go "huh, lol, what?"

NYPD has ruthlessly gunned down so many minorities, and problems continue.

Bloomberg gets on the mic after the Trayvon Martin shooting to condem the shooter, and pick up some free cred. He hides by getting on the mic to critize everyone else.

6 months?

[Budgreen]

It's been in use for 6 months already. and the public is just now finding out?

Bloomburger

[harvey the nerd]

"...private companies already do it"
The difference Mr Bloomberg is that the private company doesn't claim the right to fine, tax and impound your whole existence for little more than breathing.

You can't have it both ways

[SternisheFan]

Nor does AT&T have the power of arrest and detention.

Standing up and saying its not Big Brother doesn't make it so. The sad part is New Yorkers will probably go for this in a heart beat. All you need to do is whisper World Trade Center, and all opposition voices will be drowned out. Take it from me, my sister lords it over me every time this type of issue comes up because she was 6 blocks away on 9/11.

Have you ever lived/worked in N.Y.C.? You've got some seriously dangerous animals who have no human compassion at all in them. And thanks to video, face recognition and cell tracking these heartless criminals are getting caught more and more. If having to give up some "in public" privacy means my sisters are safer when there, then HELL YES! Take my photo! Recognize my face and track my damn phone! I don't do illegal things, and don't care if I get stop & frisked for weapons. You can't be against public surveillance then complain later when you or your loved ones get mugged/raped/killed. Welcome to the modern life.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[NotSanguine]

Nor does AT&T have the power of arrest and detention.

Standing up and saying its not Big Brother doesn't make it so. The sad part is New Yorkers will probably go for this in a heart beat. All you need to do is whisper World Trade Center, and all opposition voices will be drowned out. Take it from me, my sister lords it over me every time this type of issue comes up because she was 6 blocks away on 9/11.

Have you ever lived/worked in N.Y.C.? You've got some seriously dangerous animals who have no human compassion at all in them. And thanks to video, face recognition and cell tracking these heartless criminals are getting caught more and more. If having to give up some "in public" privacy means my sisters are safer when there, then HELL YES! Take my photo! Recognize my face and track my damn phone! I don't do illegal things, and don't care if I get stop & frisked for weapons. You can't be against public surveillance then complain later when you or your loved ones get mugged/raped/killed. Welcome to the modern life.

My neighbors, friends and acquaintances would all disagree with you. Unlike the crap some would like to believe, Most NYers are Americans and those who want to be Americans -- who value freedom over security. The events of 9/11/2001 were awful. Those poor folks who jumped from the burning towers were reminiscent of another horrific tragedy in NYC, the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire only much, much worse.

The rank disregard of individual rights in the US is hardly limited to NYC. The fact that Bloomberg (hey, don't blame me - I voted for the other guy -- three times!) is an authoritarian asshole doesn't make NYC and the amazing people who live there assholes.

I remember watching the twin towers being built. What were you doing then? I used to walk through the site every day for years when I worked across the street at the World Financial Center. The WTC site was a huge part of this city and I deplore the scumbags who hurt my city and killed so many of my fellow NYers.

As is obvious by now, I live in NYC and the vast majority of people are honest, hard working and some of the nicest people anywhere. It doesn't matter whether it's a big city or a rural area, freedom is not always safe. There are assholes and those with no respect for themselves and others everywhere. Including what ever Podunk burg you hail from.

New York is still a big city. It still has problems, but it's not the hell hole you make it out to be. You seem like "...a self-righteous fathead who mistakes his own trained-in prejudices for the laws of nature." With apologies to RAH. It's cowardly jackasses like you who cheer on the trampling of our freedom that make me sick and make the ruination of this wonderful nation a near certainty.

If you don't like my city, don't come here. I can assure you, you won't be missed.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that another aspect of "modern life" includes laws that make it damn near impossible to be responsible for your own safety and security.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[icebike]

Well said.
I've never had a single problem in NYC while visiting my sister, (other than winning an argument with her).
And that includes walking all over the neighborhood at night with my sister, who is fairly fearless about that sort of thing (i.e. only been robbed once).

Re:You can't have it both ways

[SternisheFan]

I am 52, grew up, went to school, worked and lived in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens,, the Bronx & Staten Island. As a teenager Manhattan was my 'stomping grounds', and was atop TWC after it was built back when I had a job in Manhattan as a subway messenger. I currently live on Long Island, N.Y. And I love N.Y.C., and always will. Mostly great people there, like anywhere in the world you go. I've been a N.Y.C. cabdriver. I know the good and bad of that town. And the good people deserve to be safe. It's always, admittedly, a balancing act of right and wrong.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[SternisheFan]

The problem is that another aspect of "modern life" includes laws that make it damn near impossible to be responsible for your own safety and security.

It's not a perfect system. After a slight fender-bender I was arrested and accused of assaulting an overly angry guy, and resisting arrest. In retrospect, it's a good thing neither of us had weapons. At the resisting arrest trial, I watched that officer lie on the stand about my supposedly holding onto a fence while kicking at him. That charge got dismissed over a technicality when my lawyer got the officer to admit he wasn't even on the scene when the alleged assault occured. The 'assault' case brought on by that angry driver was changed to a 'harrassment' charge, took a year to get my trial, where I was found not guilty. Afterwards I said to the judge, a good and fair man, that, "I see the wheels of justice turn slowly, but they DO turn." I do wish that I'd had a smartphone on me then to video all that happened to me that afternoon. I always have one on me now, with the 'instant' upload' option at the ready. You gotta' be smart in this tech-driven world we live in today.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[Hatta]

You've got some seriously dangerous animals who have no human compassion at all in them.

Very true. Do you really want to give them the ability to track you every minute of every day?

Here we see the simplemindedness of the authoritarian. He has no way to conceive that the bad people he is so afraid of might one day control the security apparatus of the city (if they do not do so already). We've already seen how brutally the NYPD has treated a peaceful movement for economic justice, while letting trillions of dollars worth of fraud go unpunished. What reason is there to believe the NYPD has your best interests at heart?

You can't be against public surveillance then complain later when you or your loved ones get mugged/raped/killed.

You can't be for universal surveillance and then complain later when the authorities use it to chill political dissent.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[WaffleMonster]

Have you ever lived/worked in N.Y.C.? You've got some seriously dangerous animals who have no human compassion at all in them.

Yes I have, welcome to earth.

Take my photo! Recognize my face and track my damn phone! I don't do illegal things, and don't care if I get stop & frisked for weapons. You can't be against public surveillance then complain later when you or your loved ones get mugged/raped/killed. Welcome to the modern life.

Laws and limits on power and expectation of privacy are not just to protect citzens it is to protect the system from itself. The more power aggregated into the hands of the few controlling everything the more society and everyones freedom and well being is at risk. Absolute power corrupts absolutely... It is a systemic truth embedded in human nature. Everyone is human INCLUDING the watchers.

What happens when a perp in the system spots ur gf cause he thinks shes hot and uses all of that electronic stalker intelligence to get in her pants?

How often do we *hear* about people working for TLAs *cought* abusing their power to get privledged information on the rich and famous?

You have nothing to hide..blah blah blah.. then why do you suppose the very first thing every lawyer in the country tells their client is to shut up whether they have anything to hide or not?

Your logic itself is a bit twisted in the lack of ability to be falsified. I could use the same argument but instead say if your not willing to submit to having to walk around naked in public with a minder observing your every move then you can't bitch about being robbed/stabbed/killed/whatever. If an argument can't be falsified it conveys no useful information.

Rather than waste all of that money on finding criminals I would rather see the money wasted on preventing people from being criminals and addressing underlying systemic social issues.

Resources are finite. Turning NYC into a police state is likely not the most effective use of limited resources even if your goal to the deteriment of all other considerations is protection from criminals.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[sabri]

If you don't like my city, don't come here. I can assure you, you won't be missed.

New York City is on my very short list of places I will avoid if I can. The other place on that list is the U.K.

Why? Because I don't need a nanny. I don't need to have CCTV aimed at me as soon as I exit an aircraft. By the time I've left the airport they (NYC and Queen Elizabeth) will have more footage of me than I have of my entire youth. I don't need the mayor of a city I would potentially visit and spend my hard-earned cash as a tourist telling me I can't get a super-sized soda. Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate the feelings after 9/11 and the desire to avoid that from ever happening again. But it appears that the NYC is worse than the KGB nowadays, that can not be the Freedom that the U.S. is advertising to the rest of the world.

Of course I won't be missed. But as soon as the rest of the world will think like me, id-10-t's like you will think differently. I vote with my money and I choose not to spend it in your city.

And let me give an example of where this will lead to: I used to live in Amsterdam, one of the most liberal cities ever. Legal prostitution, almost legal marijuana, legal mushrooms and a few museums. That drew a lot (a huge) amount of tourists. The downfall started about 10 years ago with the cab drivers overcharging and treating customers like crap. Then Amsterdam started construction work, which has left the city ruined for 10 years now. The left-wing politicians (not US-left) are closing down the Red Light District and make it impossible to run coffeeshops (you know, where one buys pot). The result? An almost 80% decline in tourism.

New York City was once called New Amsterdam. I guess that still applies, only the results will last a few more years. So stay in your city, as much as you can. Please.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[NotSanguine]

New York City is on my very short list of places I will avoid if I can. The other place on that list is the U.K. Why? Because I don't need a nanny. I don't need to have CCTV aimed at me as soon as I exit an aircraft. By the time I've left the airport they (NYC and Queen Elizabeth) will have more footage of me than I have of my entire youth. I don't need the mayor of a city I would potentially visit and spend my hard-earned cash as a tourist telling me I can't get a super-sized soda. Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate the feelings after 9/11 and the desire to avoid that from ever happening again. But it appears that the NYC is worse than the KGB nowadays, that can not be the Freedom that the U.S. is advertising to the rest of the world. Of course I won't be missed. But as soon as the rest of the world will think like me, id-10-t's like you will think differently. I vote with my money and I choose not to spend it in your city. And let me give an example of where this will lead to: I used to live in Amsterdam, one of the most liberal cities ever. Legal prostitution, almost legal marijuana, legal mushrooms and a few museums. That drew a lot (a huge) amount of tourists. The downfall started about 10 years ago with the cab drivers overcharging and treating customers like crap. Then Amsterdam started construction work, which has left the city ruined for 10 years now. The left-wing politicians (not US-left) are closing down the Red Light District and make it impossible to run coffeeshops (you know, where one buys pot). The result? An almost 80% decline in tourism. New York City was once called New Amsterdam. I guess that still applies, only the results will last a few more years. So stay in your city, as much as you can. Please.

Apparently, you only read the last sentence of my post. Or chose only to pay attention to the last sentence. I said:

My neighbors, friends and acquaintances would all disagree with you. Unlike the crap some would like to believe, Most NYers are Americans and those who want to be Americans -- who value freedom over security. The events of 9/11/2001 were awful. Those poor folks who jumped from the burning towers were reminiscent of another horrific tragedy in NYC, the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire [wikipedia.org] only much, much worse. The rank disregard of individual rights in the US is hardly limited to NYC. The fact that Bloomberg (hey, don't blame me - I voted for the other guy -- three times!) is an authoritarian asshole doesn't make NYC and the amazing people who live there assholes. [emphasis added]

I'm sorry that you have an issue with NYC. It really is a wonderful place despite the shenanigans that Bloomberg and Kelly have been pulling. I don't want this stupid crap any more than you do. I vote against the assholes who are trying to usurp the rights enumerated in my country's constitution.

And so, despite the fact that you decided to attack me even though I'm on the same side of the fence you are, I'll chalk up your nastiness to low blood sugar, poor reading comprehension or just that you're having a bad day. I hope the rest of your day is much better. You see? It's not so hard to be nice to people even when you're being pseudonymous, Sabri. You might want to think about that the next time you're tempted to be insulting for no apparent reason. Toodles!

Re:You can't have it both ways

[SternisheFan]

Gosh, people in positions of power over other people might decide to abuse their power? Really? No shit? What a revelation! So, how about this... When people are dicovered to be abusing other people, we have a judicial system that will dispense justice. Sounds so crazy, I know. But so crazy that it jusr might work!

Re:You can't have it both ways

[sabri]

Apparently, you only read the last sentence of my post. Or chose only to pay attention to the last sentence. I said:

and

And so, despite the fact that you decided to attack me even though I'm on the same side of the fence you are, I'll chalk up your nastiness to low blood sugar, poor reading comprehension or just that you're having a bad day. I hope the rest of your day is much better. You see? It's not so hard to be nice to people even when you're being pseudonymous, Sabri. You might want to think about that the next time you're tempted to be insulting for no apparent reason. Toodles!

Hmm.

You know what?

You are right. I actually did only read the last sentence of your post. So, I will hereby publicly apologize to you, NotSanguine. I stand corrected.

BTW, for what it's worth, I am using my real name here :-)

Re:You can't have it both ways

[NotSanguine]

Hmm. You know what? You are right. I actually did only read the last sentence of your post. So, I will hereby publicly apologize to you, NotSanguine. I stand corrected. BTW, for what it's worth, I am using my real name here :-)

Apology accepted. I hope to read more of your comments and perhaps even engage in interesting discussions with you in the future Sabri.

For what it's worth, I'm *not* using my real name here. :)

Re:You can't have it both ways

[Aryden]

You have thousands of bankers on wallstreet that have abused the ever loving shit out of a few billion Terrans. What they have done is far more heinous than a mugging, car jacking or break in. Yet, they are still sitting there, abusing us all, making obscene amounts of money using our incomes, then asking for help from Uncle Sam when things go tits up. Where the hell is my justice?

Re:You can't have it both ways

[Anonymous Coward]

You have thousands of bankers on wallstreet that have abused the ever loving shit out of a few billion Terrans. What they have done is far more heinous than a mugging, car jacking or break in. Yet, they are still sitting there, abusing us all, making obscene amounts of money using our incomes, then asking for help from Uncle Sam when things go tits up. Where the hell is my justice?

I agree with you. We don't always get justice in life, sometimes the bad guys do win. After the WTC attack, hours after, a steel constructed building just 'collapsed'. Convienentt for some, since that building was being used to store all the documents that were to be used to prosecute the 'Enron' case.

Re:You can't have it both ways

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got some seriously dangerous animals who have no human compassion at all in them.
Well let me carry my firearm I have no problem shooting dangerous animals. Do I trust the police department to protect me? No I do trust my ability with a .45 a lot more.

It Can't Happen Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Mayor Berzelius Windrip argued that the system isn't an example of Big Brother overstepping the line.

FTFY.

We're not your mom and pop's police department

[nurb432]

No, as they used to respect the privacy of the honest citizen.

THAT DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[Anonymous Coward]

How does one flip a bit "0.03" times?

Bits are integers (zero and one specifically), not fractions or floating point values. Please revise your equation to count specific known instances. Do not average potential instances, extrapolated from "fuzzy" data.

Re:THAT DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[colinrichardday]

Quantum mechanics?

Bloomberg...

[Anonymous Coward]

= Fail!

Bloomberg

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr Bloomberg, I see what you did there!

time to leave?

[Gravis Zero]

It's been gradual but i think we can say it's official that The Big Apple has become The Big Fuck You.

You have obscene pricing, crooked cops, they completely ignoring everything bad going down on Wall Street (and their major cocaine habit), they are a nanny city telling you that you cant have a large soda and now they are going Big Brother on everyone (that isn't part of the government).

Corporations really dont give a damn about what people do so long as they keep getting money from them. However, governments are just itching to break out the swat team for a double parked car.

I think it's time to blow the bridges and drag it out to sea with all the vermin on it.

If I See Vandals Shooting At CCTV Cameras,

[Anonymous Coward]

I will smile, give the thumbs-up, and look the other way because I love my country and I am a patriot.

Re:If I See Vandals Shooting At CCTV Cameras,

[Mr.CRC]

That too is a crime.

"We're not your mom and pop's PD anymore..."

[GodfatherofSoul]

Appropriate, because it's not my mom and pop's country anymore.

Blowberg

[TonyAldo]

This is unreal and totaly big brother watching us. First Bloomberg wants to limit our soda cup size ( not even joking ) and then he wants to create micro apartments for $1100-$1500 a month. And now he is ok with this whole monitoring system. What kind of society do we live in? we don't need our hands held and our movements watched, we were not born out of a NYC vagina you're not my mother. This is for our safety, please give me a break. It's just the hunger for control and greed by and for the rich.

Re:Blowberg

[SternisheFan]

The 'soda size' thing is an old misdirection trick, used by magicians and politicians. "Pay attention to this hand HERE",, and not to what the other hand is doing...

HE HE :)

[Anonymous Coward]

Big Brother phase 1 (Complete)

Re:Businesss... government... it's still big broth

[kiwimate]

These guys were drooling about wholesale intrusion into the most private aspects of our lives.

It really is the rise of big brother. The fact that it is a corporation instead of government is of little practical value; monitoring data gives those who have it power, and that power will always be abused - and will result in ruined or destroyed lives, reduced freedom, and corrupt leadership (whether government or corporate).

You're talking about Google, right?

War paint chic

[Anonymous Coward]

http://venturebeat.com/2010/07/02/facial-recognition-camouflage/

What a funny argument!!!

[stanlyb]

So, let me summarize it:
1.It is OK to do all this surveillance at municipality level, because, you see, it is already done by the private business.
2.But the fact that is is already done by the private business does not mean that it is legal.
3.But because we justified 1, based on 2, now we have 3, it is LEGAL to do all this surveillance.
Now, my friends, do you see why MATH is so important? If you, dear friend, try to prove any lemma or theorem this way, you will repeat the same year again and again and again........

Re:Businesss... government... it's still big broth

[sl3xd]

Google is only one of the players. Amazon is another. Throw in most major retailers, financial institutions, and so on. Next comes the data sharing between the organizations (it's only illegal if you get caught...), and you have a real problem.

NYC

[JakFrost]

NYC Big Apple already has a microphone system installed for detecting gun shot locations through triangulation. They also have deployed mobile raised platforms for surveillance by cameras and police personnel. They have mobile police command centers with multiple camera poles. What is so startling by the further progression of a surveillance society that the city has become?

We will soon be reading about police drones beings to record suspects and protests and soon after to target suspects and persons of interest with more than surveillance.

When will the first tear gas canister be dropped by a drone?
When will the first person be shot or tasored by a police drone?

The people are not in control of that city.

Re:NYC

[Reziac]

I'm wondering what sort of ...fun... could be had with a recording of gunshots and a nice car stereo system...

all flash, no use

[Anonymous Coward]

This is great for whatever supervisors who haven't been out on the streets ever, but the rest of the NYPD still uses *typewriters* and a mainframe system that's a hack job of Pan Am's flight booking software.

If you're not doing wrong, there's nothing to fear

[VortexCortex]

If Big Brother is double plus good, then why does it keep doing this kind of scary shit?!

I'd rather live with the chance of terror being visited upon me, than be terrorized for certain at all times.

If you've got nothing to hide, then you've nothing to fear.

^- That may be true; However, if everyone's afraid of something, then it's fucking wrong!

This Bloomberg guy

[Taco Cowboy]

At least he is consistent

He is both anti-gun and pro Big Brother
 

Shhh! It hears you!

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, I'm really having a McNealy moment here. Repeat after me: "There is on such thing as privacy anymore". Say it. Memorize it. You can get a big laugh out of all the self-important NYPD Deputy Commissioners drawing executive salaries to look like bigshot spy masters in their "24" Situation Rooms (bottom of page), but the fact is, pervasive surveillance and data mining is with us and will only get more so. The ramifications I leave to the reader for now, but get it through your heads: Privacy is dead! Deal with it one way or another.

3500 Cameras, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

It probably wouldn't be all that hard to set up an Arduino-based mount that searches for camera lenses. Then fires a powerful laser at them, burning out the CCD.

If you wanted to get really innovative, you could mount it on a drone. That way, there's no vehicle to track. Just swoop in, *FZZAP!*, then swoop out. And because all the cameras are stationary, and maps are so accurate, you could program the drone to work autonomously.

tit for tat

[SlashDev]

And so you think that this balances things out? The difference here is that the NYC police can take action against citizens, you can spy on the police all day long and you can't do squat, revenge never works people, diplomacy does, we need to talk and discuss what is going on and arrive at better laws to protect both the police and the people they are trying to police.

How many round-trip flights?

[tepples]

When you get a new job and/or get the money to move, you do it.

I know nothing about how to live on my own, but as far as I can tell, one big problem with waiting to move until after you get a job offer is the cost of traveling to and from each interview.

Re:How many round-trip flights?

[nschubach]

Depends on the job/company. I've done phone interviews for a few companies, and if they thought I was worth a followup I would take a day off and drive to do it. (One was from Columbus, OH to Chicago ~6 hour drive, two states, and it cost me a tank of gas... which, at the time was $20.) It was a long day, I didn't get the job... but I did manage to snag a deep dish pizza out of it.

Possible doesn't mean convenient

[DragonWriter]

Reading comprehension 101: Read ALL THE WAY to the END of a sentence.

I did.

stop handing over cell records to any tin-star sheriff if that were legally possible.

How can you quote something and STILL miss it?

I didn't miss it. Telecom companies share personal information with government (including law enforcement) far more easily than is the minimum legally required (that is, if they were going to stop if it was "legally possible", they would be doing less than they do.) They do so because for PR and other reasons (including the fact that in some percentages -- but not all -- of the cases where they currently voluntarily share information without compulsion, they would be ultimately be compelled to share information) it serves the corporations interest in maximizing profits to do so.

Pseudo freedom

[luk3Z]

Surveillance is a 2nd meaning of pseudo democracy/freedom in US.

Re:If you're not doing wrong, there's nothing to f

[Reziac]

"If you've got nothing to hide, then you've nothing to fear."

If I've got nothing to hide, then why are you watching me??