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DIY Laser Cutter Raises Capital, Concerns
An anonymous reader sends this quote from Wired:
"Affordable 3-D printers and CNC mills are popping up everywhere, opening up new worlds of production to wide ranges of designers. However, one major tool still hasn’t received a DIY overhaul: the laser cutter. Maybe people are sensitive because Goldfinger tried to cut James Bond in half with one, but all that changes now with Patrick Hood-Daniel’s new Kickstarter, 'Build Your Own Laser Cutter.' ... A 40-watt laser tube and power supply means it can cut a variety of materials: wood, plastic, fabric, and paper. ... There is one major red flag, however. The machine’s frame is built from of Medium Density Overlay (MDO) — a type of plywood. Hood-Daniels says this is a feature, making the blackTooth less sensitive to thermal distortion and inaccuracy than a metal frame, but it also creates a serious, fire-breathing concern. ... When asked for comment, Hood-Daniel says 'Initially, I had the same thoughts as to the precarious use of wood for the structure, but even with long burns to the structure which were made on accident when starting a run, there was no ignition.'"
So that means there's not really any story then?
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
This will destroy Rock, Scissors and Paper.
Nothing beats Laser Cutter. The game is ruined.
Am I 'rite?
Belief is the currency of delusion.
Maybe they haven't received as much attention because it's difficult to permanently blind yourself with a 3D printer?
Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
Dope and paint the wood with flame retardant if it's such a concern.
Problem solved.
If I can't cut nosy Brits in half?
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
That should do the trick.
When did the notion start to circulate that anything remotely related to wood is some kind of incendiary deathtrap? Is it when people stopped having to start fires with nothing more than minimal tools and careful arrangement of sticks?
Christ, you've got something designed to cut through plastics with a laser, plastics which are basically just waiting for some added heat to turn into sticky, flaming, hydrocarbon death, and nobody says a thing. Suddenly, terrifying wood,. notorious for perfunctory smoldering in response to heat, bursts onto the scene and everybody is freaking out about ignition. Kids these days.
Somehow, people have been practicing pyrography for millenia without bursting into flames.
Maybe people are sensitive because Goldfinger tried to cut James Bond in half with one
Oh no, a fictional character used a real item to attempt to cause harm, everyone be afraid of said item!
Wait, so we have a DIY device with a 40W laser and people are worried that the plywood might be a fire hazard?
It depends. A laser that can cut metal is obviously dangerous and you should not place any part of your body that you want to remain attached in the path of the beam. So, a very high power laser is like a disc saw - everyone can see that it's dangerous (it can cut a piece of wood or metal, obviously it can cut off a finger).
The lower power lasers are different. They do not burn, do not cut and are powered by a couple of batteries, like a flash light. To understand that it is still dangerous, you need to understand that the beam is highly concentrated and can still burn the retina, even tough it does not burn a piece of paper and you do not feel it if you place your hand in the path of the beam.
Similar stuff with guns. Most people understand that a real gun is really dangerous and you can kill someone with it (they may not understand all the safety precautions, but will tell you that you should not load the gun, aim it at somebody and pull the trigger if you do not want to kill that somebody). On the other hand, BB guns are not seen as that dangerous, kids shoot each other all the time with them and if nobody manages to hit an eye, it will be OK.
I thought lasers stopped being scary after everyone played with a laser pointer. Or a CD/DVD drive. Or a laser mouse. Or a laser barcode scanner in a store. Or after the Star Wars style laser weapons didn't exactly materialize after all the years of research and investment. As for CNC machines, waterjet systems are more powerful (try cutting stone with a laser), and turret/punch systems are, IMO, more dangerous (things are actually slamming around). I always thought that you'd use laser when you need the extra precision that laser CNC gives you, not the "dangerous" power. As for the fire hazard - try setting a block of wood on fire with a magnifying glass. In general, you would use a laser CNC to cut wood, not to set it on fire (and it cuts nicely indeed). It seems like all the issues the summary talks about are not the real reason why DIY laser cutters aren't abundant. The real reason - talked about in the article - is that commercial cutters are already available for less money than even this kickstarter is asking for (you get a smaller, but metal-framed and fully assembled device).
So I wonder how much experience the poster has with either MDO or laser cutters. I have a laser cutter, and have used MDO, but have never tried cutting MDO. Go try it. I cut plywood and MDF -- I'm less worried about a fire than the laser cutting through the MDO given enough dwell time. But basically, this artcle seems like a "I'm clueless and scared, so let's post unsubstiated speculation to SlashDot."
BTW -- there is another open source laser cutter out there: http://labs.nortd.com/lasersaur/ I'll probably replace mine with a Lasersaur when my machine dies (it's acting poorly :(
Well, theres the small problem that the reflection of the beam may still be dangerous. That's something most people don't think of when speaking about the dangers of high-powered lasers:
It's not only the direct beam you want to be wary of, but indirect sources as well. A friend of mine once got 3rd degree burns from the reflection of a high-power UV laser.
So, a very high power laser is like a disc saw
It's much worse than a disc saw. A disk saw doesn't detach from the table and fly around randomly at the speed of light while bouncing around among reflecting surfaces.
Ezekiel 23:20
Something like 0.3mm would be great. Then you can cut motor laminations. This would be much closer to replicating its own part than the other guys.
What I forgot, just to be clear: I'm not speaking of reflections in a polished mirror. I'm talking about reflections from an ordinary wall.
I was just cutting medium density fiberboard on a laser cutter last night. The problem is not the laser beam igniting the cabinet. That's hard to do. The problem is igniting the workpiece, which is easy for many materials, and the cabinet not being able to contain the resulting fire. The cutting process should take place in a nonflammable box with an exhaust to the outside.
Sheet steel is cheap. Spot welding is cheap. This is not rocket science.
On what planet is wood less susceptible to thermal distortion than ... well any metal, or resin or well most other materials I can come up with that would be suitable?
How about ambient moisture changes? Wood warps over time, even various plywood types depending on which side gets more airflow/heat/whatever.
Sigh, I wouldn't worry too much about him burning the place down if he doesn't even grasp the basic materials he's working with I'm not too concerned with him creating a functioning system.
And as for fire ... you guys do realize that laser CNC machines cut wood all the time without fire ... right? It puts its own fires out as the steam coming out of the wood destroys any hope of an active fire. Have you ever started a fire with a magnifying glass on a 2 by 4? No, no you haven't. You might ignite other more flammable materials and use those to light the 2x4, but the energy isnt' there otherwise.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
...like asbestos and lead?
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
This will destroy Rock, Scissors and Paper.
Nothing beats Laser Cutter. The game is ruined.
Or replaced by a newer variation: rock, laser cutter, mirror.
Just put the 3D printer and the material in an oxygen-depleted environment. It's not like a canister of Nitrogen is expensive, or even dangerous (the gas, not the risk of explosive decompression if you go full retard). It's pretty easy to build a glass enclosure to seal everything in. That way, you could work with wood that would ordinarily burst into flames and it won't. You'll need to setup a infrared thermometer to rake the workbench after and only unlock once the material has cooled, obviously... and air-cooling something that's several hundred degrees takes a few hours... but I see no problem here.
It's simple to design safety features for a design like this. As a backup, you could put a water pressure sprayer in the containment area as well, in case the seals break while the material is in a super-heated state.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
yours doesn't do that? I must have built my disc saw improperly....
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I suspect the idea here is for this to be the enthusiast's enthusiast toy.
Or maybe just put one in the local hardware store. Take your pattern in, they cut up a piece of metal for you.
In principal its a little like the key duplication machine.
I would rather have a DIY hydrojet cutter. The consumables are cheaper and it is much easier to get one powerful enough to cut metal. To cut metal with a CO2 laser requires over 1000w of power which is a very large and expensive laser.
I love how all these "new" cutters and shapers and printers are nothing more than your standard 2D CNC mills with the "mill" part swapped out in favor of a laser, or water jet, or extrusion nozzle... I guess if it ain't borked, don't fix it, right?
What'll we think of next?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
The problem with laser cutters is that they cause plastics to give off toxic gasses when cut. You're literally burning plastic. These systems can start fires, I've seen it. There's a reason you aren't supposed to leave them unattended. This is really not an issue because you should always have a fire extinguisher close at hand when using ANY machinery. However, I'm far more concerned with the toxic gas issue here. You can't just set one of these systems up in your house without a ventilation system and run it. You have to have exhaust fans and ducting to the outside.
I used to work programming laser cutters. Let's summarize the ways these machines can kill/maim you:
1) Fire: You can build your entire machine on metal, that won't prevent the thing you are cutting from catching fire.
2) Smoke: There's a reason most laser cutters have huge ventilation tubes. The laser will produce smoke, if you cut anything but wood it will be toxic smoke. Not good.
3) Laser: 40 watts is 100 times the power needed to instantly blind you. Lasers of that power are dangerous even bouncing on non-reflective surfaces. The laser is probable IR so invisible too.
4) And IMHO the worst: The high-current high-voltage power source (10 KV or more) can instantly kill you.
The company I worked for had huge problems with the certification of the power source alone.
DIY 40W Laser = terrible idea. CNCs are much cheaper and safer.
And what about the beam refraction? Specular surfaces anyone? 2w beams are dangerous if they hit you in the eye (instant blindness), what could a 40w do?
We didn't start the ... oh wait.
For those too young to remember.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I think wood or plastic would be a concern.
I just don' get where your outrage is coming from, I don't see anyt "anything remotely related to wood is some kind of incendiary deathtrap". Nobody's saying wood isn't a safe material. (I'm lying on a wooden couch with a cotton futon as I write this.) But it's kind of the wrong material for a device that tends to run hot. Maytbe it's "safe enough" for this particular application — but you don't need to leap down the throat of anybody suggesting that it's not.
Especially when they haven't even mentioned Obamacare!
I initially read that as:
DIY Laser Cutter Razes Capitol, Concerns
Les, the "B" is out on the printer!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
...but just about everything is shiny at 10 microns, thus that needs to be watched
Or rather not.
Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
Darn, now my insurance company will be asking if I have any laser cutters, 3D printers, etc. And it will probably cost me more than a pit bull, fireplace, or inground pool.
Thieves. Next thing you know, they will also tell me what I can or cannot make with it. Oh, wait...
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Obviously, you haven't played enough Tribes.
Everything is better with chainsaws.
People have been making DIY laser cutters for a few years now. But sometimes it ends up being cheaper to just buy the whole damn thing instead of wasting months fine-tuning all the fiddly bits and still getting less than stellar results.
It's TRUE that there's no real 'definitive resource' for the A-to-Z on how to get it done, but then the same is true for CNC conversions, even though hundreds of people have done them.
I'm in the process of converting my mini-mill and mini-lathe to CNC, after that I've definitely got my eye on making a laser cutter! :3
Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
by David Byrn: Lasing down the house!
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
I've worked with three different laser ablation systems last year. For that, I had to go through a one-day training session, to prepare me for all the safety issues involved. Most notable is protection of your eyes. Any of the lasers at the research institute where I was working, was capable of permanently blinding. Most of them had a continuous power of "only" a few tens of W, while one was a 300 W IR laser which melted a computer's case placed 7 m away - only with the reflected light.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
...the frame of which was constructed entirely of pressed straw.
James Bond: Do you expect me to talk?
Auric Goldfinger: No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to be cut into parts for my mechanical clock!
Air rifles are not quite that safe. They are now used to hunt deer. I, personally, have an air rifle that, if shot directly towards someones heart, will likely kill them! So, please, don't spread the false belief that air rifles are harmless!!!
My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
You just can't do much very quickly with 40 watts. Besides monogramming or similar, it's just not fast enough when cutting anything more than paper. They talk aboit 5 inches per minute....really guys, you need something much bigger and faster.
Why is he worried about thermal distortion? I work for a laser welding shop and believe me, thermal distortion is not a concern when it comes to the machine frame. We built two of our workstations, the first was built using 80/20 and the second machine has a welded frame that was designed in house and built by a 3rd party. Thermal distortion was a non issue and we work with tolerances down to the nearest 1/10000 inch (2.54 um).
To me this "article" is more about promoting his kickstarter than anything else. He is splitting hairs when it comes to using wood vs metal to justify using a cheap and simple to work material. If he used metal frames his machines for would cost as much as the competition. I have seen laser engraving and cutting systems for under 10 grand, some as low as 4-7 grand.
Tag this article shameless self promotion.
I was not talking about those air rifles, but about the ones that kids use. Do you give your air rifle to a kid and let him play with it?
1. Chicago Hackerspace will buy one of these wooden Laser cutters.
2. A Cow will accidentally turn on the Laser cutter.
4. Lots of real estate opportunities.
As the other AC helpfully pointed out it is the reflections that are the biggest concern. They are likely to increase if you put aluminum foil on your wooden frame. Hence my warning.
Everyone's focusing on the blah blah blah, but this is the big news: a laser cutter that can be bought for less than $1000! That would make it affordable to hobbyists. .stl files for a 3D printer or CNC machine. This means it's also affordable from a time perspective.
Being a 2D machine, it's also easy to prepare drawing files for. Much easier than making
Though with no intention I know of to become a product. Many page detailed write up of how this has been done with mostly junkyard parts, yet to great accuracy on my site (I didn't do this, one of the other members did). 6 pages of just how Jerry Biehler did it here: (with pix and videos) http://www.coultersmithing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=78&hilit=laser+cutter When hackaday linked this last month, we got slashdotted (but our servers handled it OK).
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
I've built the BlackToe 8'x4' router and the WhiteAnt 3D printer. Don't fund this.
In both cases the shipments arrived with multiple mistakes and require two or more reshipments. Instructions were out of date, assumed you knew things, and didn't cover any safety issues. When I would write for help I'd frequently get an automated out-of-office message, followed by his response a few minutes later. Everything about the way this guy does business says "this is going to lead to disaster".
He would have been better off running a kickstarter on his RedFrog pick & place machine.
Seriously? Holy crap. I haven't been paying attention. The one that my brother-in-law and I use will barely kill a mourning dove. What brand do you use?
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
Probably the lens/cornea of your eye, and not the retina. Unlike visible and near IR, the lens in your eye doesn't work at 10.6um. Not that this in any way makes it safe. IWALE
At the speed of light? What rpm was it running? Correction, rps?
You live someplace you can get insurance with a pit bull?
Every state I've lived in the last 10 years has lacked companies offering coverage to owners of a dog that has even a drop of recognizable pit bull blood in it.