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Germany Exports More Electricity Than Ever Despite Phasing Out Nuclear Energy
An anonymous reader writes "Der Spiegel reports that Germany has exported more electricity this year than ever before, despite beginning to phase out nuclear power. In the first three quarters of 2012, Germany sent 12.3 terawatt hours of electricity across its borders. The country's rapid expansion into renewable energy is credited with the growth. However, the boost doesn't come without a price. The German government's investments into its new energy policy will end up costing hundreds of billions of dollars over the next two decades, and it still relies on imports for its natural gas needs. It also remains to be seen whether winter will bring power shortages. Is Germany a good example of forward-looking energy policy?"
How are your rates?
How hard is it to get a 3-phase drop for your new business?
Are you really going to have a shortage this winter?
Do the tax dollars you've put into this feel like they were decently spent?
People with less-progressive powergirds would like to know.
which has exceeded 3 trillion dollars. I'd gladly trade the money spent on war for a stable power grid that doesn't go down at the drop of a leaf
Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
Hundreds of billions for something that you can sell and gives the country a renewable supply of energy?
That's a bargain compared to all the wars, bailouts, pork projects, mansions for the few, etc. the rest of the world is "buying" with it's tax money.
No sig today...
Ask, and the internet provides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita
This is not a victory for renewables, but for democracy. German citizens want to go renewable enough that they are willing to swallow the costs. Germany is a rich enough country to do that, and rich countries can accomplish amazing things when they have the will to do so. That doesn't mean renewable became any more viable economically, or that other poorer countries have any chance of replicating this feat.
Actually most Germans heat without electricity. Old heating systems often run on oil, most newer ones run on gas (which can without problems be replaced by biogas because it's chemically identical) and increasingly wood pellets (made from the leftovers of sawmills). You even see an increase in prices for cheap furniture because it is made of this compressed sawdus which is now worth something instead of being thrown away :-)
No, they are not an example of good, forward looking policy. They are a horrible example.
They are replacing established, 0 carbon emission, nuclear power plants with other sources that have either higher emissions because of their construction (wind, solar) or with sources that just plain have carbon emissions from their operation (natural gas). I know natural gas is way better than coal, but they're replacing nuclear with gas which increases carbon emissions.
If we want to impact global warming we have to use nuclear power. Wind and solar don't have the capacity and it will take a loooooong road of building for them to even come close to replacing other forms of electricity generation.
I absolutely loathe how the same "green" advocates who harp about the need to solve global warming now INSIST that the best no CO2 power generation options we have right now be abandoned.
Sure there are arguments on whether building NEW nuclear plants will be good or economical at reducing carbon emissions, but we're talking about shuttering working power plants here.
If you believe global warming is a problem, then the worlds turning its back on its functioning nuclear power plants has to stop!
>Subsidies for oil companies? That is a harmful myth. Being able to subtract losses from profits before paying taxes is NOT subsidizing the oil companies. It has the added advantage of giving incentives to look for more oil.
Exporting all those MWh is great, but are they just importing it back at night?
If you lived in Germany you wouldn't be worried about powercuts because your government was able to build infrastructure without a bunch of halfwits complaining that they didn't want gubbermint in their electricks.
If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
Also a lot of houses have remote heating using residual heat from gas or coal power stations. This way these power stations get an efficiency rating of close to 100%, something that wouldn't be possible otherwise (due to the second law of thermodynamics).
1) Based on the summary numbers, Germany basically has the equivalent of 1.4 Gigawatts of spare capacity. Likely more as I'm sure they don't sell 100% of their excess capacity. This works out to enough to power about 1 million American homes.
2) The cost of the renewable energy looks like it will cost less than the war in Iraq did for the United States.
Draw your own conclusions.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
What are those exports? It's the solar power and wind power that can't be used for lack of domestic power transmission and simple lack of demand in the areas where it is generated. This power must be exported, because it cannot be consumed. Despite all that, wind turbines still have be shut down at peak generation - leading to a steady decline in actual capacity factors of wind turbines. (Don't worry about you money, of course feed-in tariffs are still being paid when turbines are shut down ...)
The most important question on those exports is hidden by the phrasing of those propaganda news: How much did germany get in return for those exports and how much did it cost to produce them? It doesn't take much in the way of imagination to conclude that it isn't much at all. Domestic power prices regularly drop to a fraction of the feed-in tariffs being paid for wind and solar power (occasionally dropping into negative territory) and exports are unlikely to offer better rates.
The result of all that? Germans will pay an average of 0.28 Euro - or about $0.40 per kWh next year, up from 0.25 Euro this year. With a clear trend upwards, as more and more wind turbines and solar cells that produce useless electricity come online. With the recent push for off-shore wind generation that will be 50-100% more expensive than solar power (depending on the scale of the solar power plant), this will only rise. Germany will catch up with the very highest electricity prices in Europe next year (Danemark) and is set to surpass them right thereafter.
Meanwhile, the need for transmission lines is still seen as a conspiracy of the electricity utilities by most "greens" in Germany. The need for serious storage capacity, which is already rather giant, is still not recognized.
This is what you call a bubble - worth on the order of $350bn and rising - paid by electricity consumers through their bills. The only people who profit from it are those who have enough money to pay for solar cells or wind turbines and the more money they spend on them, the more they get. A classic transfer of money from the poor to the richest of our society - all brought to you by massive lobbying of the Green party.
That is so bogus. Germany relies on coal. It's replacing its nuclear generators with coal powered generators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany The thing about renewable generation is mostly a lie.
Well, according to this article, the neighbors don't want that exported electricity and it's causing problems with their grids.
When the companies in question are making RECORD profits, whether you call it a subsidy or not, they don't need it.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
...just wait until you see how much those non-renewable alternatives like tar sands and coal-to-gas will cost you. And that's before you figure in the cost to clean up the mess they make.
Remember: deepwater horizon had a wellhead as far beneath the waves as Denver is above them, and the oil itself was farther below the seafloor than the peak of Everest is above sea level. Loooooooong gone are the days when you had to be careful with a pickaxe in Texas lest you set off a gusher.
Oh -- and it's petroleum that fertilizes our crops and powers our transportation infrastructure, and we've already burned up half of the planet's total reserves. The easy-to-get-to and high-quality half, of course.
Like it or not, the days of cheap energy are done and gone with. If we're smart, we'll bootstrap ourselves to a solar-based energy system, which won't be cheap, but it will give us more power than any of us can imagine. There's enough insolation just on America's residential rooftops to power the entire planet, for example. If we invest wisely, as Germany is doing, we'll sacrifice a little bit of short-term comfort for a lifetime of luxury. If we invest poorly, as Obama will have us do with his "Drill, baby! Drill!" energy plan... ...well, if we actually follow through with that, we're well and truly fucked.
Cheers,
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
The high trade surplus does not clear for possible power shortages in winter . On particularly cold days when the sun is not even the wind blows, Germany is dependent, according to the Agency on a so-called cold reserve. At that include power plants in Austria.
Incidentally, "cold reserve" is code for "coal". All they have done by shutting down nuclear is to switch to coal. There have been other articles about this as well. Solar is great and all, but it doesn't generate base power load well.
There's a lot of talk about wind energy in Germany, but in truth most of our energy stems from coal and natural gas plants. And that's not going to change in the foreseeable future. Check out the up-to-date statistics on power production in Germany that eex provides.
I really would have it contributed to Green energy but as far as i got it, it is not due to the fact that they have a surplus of green energy, but that the Coal price is way lower than Gas.
As a result Gas plants are turned off and Coal plants are used to the max.
It just happens that the Netherlands has a lot of Gas plants and Germany Coal plants, hence the exports
There are no stupid questions, Just a lot of inquisitive idiots. (from a good friend)
Actually, Germany is somewhere in the middle of the pack in terms of the percentage of renewable sources in the electricity mix. The problem is that they also consume a lot of electricity (industry and population), so their consumption really matters in absolute terms. That's why it is an important country -- if they can pull it off, it means that other large industrial producers like France and the UK also can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_European_Union
Keep in mind that that report is 2 years old now, and many countries like Spain and Portugal have invested additional resources, with Portugal passing the 50% mark this year.
"Isn't Germany currently building a ton of new coal-fired plants because 'renewables' are too unreliable to base an industrial economy on?"
No.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
From the given link, the President said ""So my attitude is let's stop giving taxpayer subsidies to oil companies that don't need them ...".
He, too, believes that allowing the subtraction of losses from profits prior to taxation is a form of subsidy. Even a child at his Kool-Aid stand knows he has to pay his parents back for the paper cups and Kool-Aid before seeing how much he profited. That should not change when the child gets 50 years older, and it is an oil business instead of a Kool-Aid stand.
"They don't need it"
Unless you are the richest person in the world, there will always be someone with more than you, that you can state that about, to try to justify taking it from them.
You don't need an AC in Germany. We have mild summers and mild winters. So there goes one major factor.
But there is also the cultural factor. For instance every fridge, washing machine, anything that remotely uses power has a big fat sticker with the energy efficiency class on its side. Nobody likes to buy something with a B on it when you can spend a bit more that says A.
This goes even further. We use so little water that lakc of water seriously threatens our drains. So the utilities started to flush them.
Most of the cars you see in the inner cities are quite small. And a lot of them are highly fuel efficient. Bigger cars used for commuting are diesel powered. You'll see a lot of Blue Motion Volkswagen that are so fuel efficient they put a Prius to shame.
The head of our government is a physicist. That propably also helps. They tend not to be that easily bullshittable. She can do the maths herself. Also one of our states is governed by the Green party.
20 minutes into the future
Why would we need that much more electric energy in the winter? Sure, it's a lot darker outside and we might play more Angry Birds. But I can't see how this should have an impact of more than +20%. Also I fail to see what your arithmetic gymastics are supposed to achieve?
20 minutes into the future
I have a friend who works in a German power plant, in the back end handling coal orders, deliveries, etc.
Never been so busy, apparently.
Yes.
German coal power revival poses new emissions threat
Oh no... it's the future.
So there are no blizzards in Germany, eh?
sudo make me a sandwich
But renewables don't work! Subsidies for oil companies! Drill baby drill etc.
They don't work.
Here in Ontario(Canada), it's cost electricity users $20B in subsidies so far, and is costing the average rate payer right now about 3c/KWH on top of their electricity bill on ToU billing at peak. By 2016, Ontario is projected to be at 16c/KWH one of the highest in North America. This is all because of subsidies, or the FiT(Feed it Tariff) program. Where utilities get paid at a higher rate than they can sell for. Usually between 40-60c/KWH.
But hey, look above. A german mentioned that they're paying 0.45c/KWH right now. Enjoy that screw over, though he didn't mention that nearly 800k germans can no longer afford electricity and have been cut off. Though the article is considered dated from June of this year, and it's figured to be over 1 million germans now.
Om, nomnomnom...
"For every wind farm, you need a gas powerstation of the same size to compensate when the wind is not blowing.
that's a complete lack of understanding energy distribution.
I mean, it's simply..stupid.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
And...?
it's STILL less CO2.
Of course, this assume they aren't using a water reservoir to maintain a balanced load. Some location in the world are always windy.
AND just becasue it isn't windy where you farms happen to be, doesn't mean it isn't windy ion other places that could sell you their surplus from wind.
I'm not a big fan of wind as a base load supply for several reason, but what you list is simply short sighted and ignorant.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I sweat like a stuck pig
I either hate you or love you, depending on if you did this on purpose or not.
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I know what I'm talking about. You do not. The numbers I gave were specific to Germany, since that's the subject at hand
The Pacific Nothwest is exceptional, in that there's LOTS of hydro to be had, and very few people living there. While it's technically a "renewable", it's completely inelastic, and been fully maxed-out since the 50s. no matter how much demand increases, you'll never get any more energy out of that hydro. California was getting 30% of it's energy from hydro several years back, but demand rose, and hydro could not, so it's becoming an ever-more tiny piece of the electric grid here.
Expanding into other renewables will get very expensive for Oregon. The fact that your electric prices are low, is exactly why you'll never get large-scale development of solar and wind... They're too expensive. California is getting some of this, but only very slowly, and at electric prices of about double what you're talking about.
You'd consider Germany's electric rates to be absolutely astronomical, but that's where they had to raise them to, to fund all this renewable energy generation build-out, and there's no shortcuts, Oregon, that you can take to get there without raising rates.
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I haven't read the FIT for Germany, but typical FITs only pay when energy is delivered. If the wind stops blowing, the generator is not able to charge for the capacity of the facility during that time.
Power exports are highly volatile and depend on who else is generating at the time and what the demand is at that time. If the majority of exports occurred in the evening, the exporter is likely doing so at or below cost. However, daytime rates are often several times higher than the price at night which would be a gain for the exporter.
The bottom line is that renewables make power trading more volatile but not necessarily more expensive. More generators mean more competition and the potential for lower prices. The power system is very complicated and very hard to characterize.
If absolute power corrupts absolutely, what does this say about renewable power?
Why should he be ashamed? He pays for it... Not everyone needs to set their AC to a setting you agree with.
Because he doesn't pay for it. His energy use has negative externalities which we all pay for.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?