Slashdot Mirror
Airlines Face Acute Pilot Shortage
Hugh Pickens writes "The WSJ reports that U.S. airlines are facing their most serious pilot shortage since the 1960s. Federal mandates are taking effect that will require all newly hired pilots to have at least 1,500 hours of prior flight experience — six times the current minimum. This raises the cost and time to train new fliers in an era when pay cuts and more-demanding schedules already have made the profession less attractive. Meanwhile, thousands of senior pilots at major airlines soon will start hitting the mandatory retirement age of 65. 'We are about four years from a solution, but we are only about six months away from a problem,' says Bob Reding, recently retired executive vice president of operations at AMR Corp. A study by the University of North Dakota's aviation department indicates major airlines will need to hire 60,000 pilots by 2025 to replace departures and cover expansion over the next eight years. Meanwhile, only 36,000 pilots have passed the Air Transport Pilot exam in the past eight years, which all pilots would have to pass under the Congressionally imposed rules, and there are limits to the ability of airlines, especially the regional carriers, to attract more pilots by raising wages. While the industry's health has improved in recent years, many carriers still operate on thin profit margins, with the airlines sandwiched between rising costs for fuel and unsteady demand from price-sensitive consumers. 'It certainly will result in challenges to maintain quality,' says John Marshall, an independent aviation-safety consultant who spent 26 years in the Air Force before overseeing Delta's safety. 'Regional carriers will be creative and have to take shortcuts' to fill their cockpits."
It didn't seem like we were having any real problems due to inexperienced pilots before. If this is really a problem, let's just roll this back.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
what about adding a apprenticeship system into prior flight experience??
Air travel prices go up, demand goes down until they match. The riff-raff will have to travel Greyhound.
Have gnu, will travel.
I would expect this to usher in an era of complete flight automation, right from taxi-ing, to taking off, to flying, and to landing. That would be so cool :D
Won't most planes be pilotless by 2025?
Golly....if only there was something the airlines could do to make being a pilot more attractive.
We're tired of all of these ugly ones.
Well, this is certainly an up in the industry. Just 3 years ago, most pilots were complaining that the economy as well as the reluctance of travelers to deal with the security measures were driving travel to an all time low. I guess if we were serious, we could drop the mandatory retirement age temporarily (and replace it with a more comprehensive physical and mental exam which allows able pilots to continue flying) until more pilots become trained.
Or we could have different categories of pilots, full commercial pilots having the full 1,500 hrs of training, and categories for pilots having less training and experience flying small planes with fewer passengers, and ones having say 300 hrs for flying only cargo and staff.
This raises the cost and time to train new fliers in an era when pay cuts and more-demanding schedules already have made the profession less attractive.
Well, duh! Cut pay, make schedules more demanding, and whine about a pilot shortage!
"with the airlines sandwiched between rising costs for fuel and unsteady demand from price-sensitive consumers"
I think consumers are sensitive to more than just price. The humiliating experience that flying has become in the USA could contribute.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Starting pilots have been woefully paid and live in miserable conditions. The average pay for a regional starts around 20k a year. To get the 1500 hours to get that crappy pay you have to pay to rent 1500 hours worth of airplane time. Oh you might get a discount by instructing for a while but that just turns it into a ponzi scheme.
The market will sort this out over time. Everyone needs pilots so the cost of tickets will have to rise. Some people won't be able to afford to fly. Fewer pilots will be required. That's the impact they should have expected when they passed this new reg.
Why do you need more training when you have planes that almost fly themselves? http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/81570/
with the airlines sandwiched between rising costs for fuel and unsteady demand from price-sensitive consumers
Really? Actually, jet fuel prices have leveled off in the last six months.
Not all the airlines are doing badly. Southwest--a low-fare carrier--is doing just fine. Maybe there are other problems at the "traditional" airlines.
> [..] John Marshall, an independent aviation-safety consultant who spent 26 years in the Air Force before overseeing Delta's safety.
If instead they had hired someone who spent 26 years in the Delta Force before overseeing Air safety maybe I would not have to step in bare socks on a mat covered with foot sweat while holding my pants at the security checks in airports since all terrorists would have been Chuck Norrised.
lucm, indeed.
The military will train you to be a pilot. You're required to serve with them for a period of time though. What if the airlines just did the same thing? Get them their hours, but the pilot trainee agrees to work under pre-negotiated salary and benefit package for a period of time after training. After that they become "free agents". If that's legal under the labor laws, the only thing holding the airlines back from doing it is their own misgivings. What are they afraid of? Going bankrupt? Yeah, like, that never happens... to. an. airline. Get over it. Just start a training program, and if you can legally bind the pilot to a contract that contract is an asset in bankruptcy? Not sure. Once again. Labor law. Not sure how it works, but they bind baseball players to contracts, so I don't see why they can't do it with pilots. Once again, it's a fair deal--the pilot gets to fly, and then agrees to fly with the carrier that trains him/her. Just don't exploit them with these $20k pay packages and ungodly hours. I don't want my pilot worrying about losing his house. The only thing hard about the training should be... the training. Everything else should be easy. Good dorms, good meals, good pay. I want my pilot worrying about just one thing: the fucking plane.
Let's invest in a US transportation infrastructure that * Uses less fuel ( air travel has become more efficient - but so could rail if we made lighter trains * Get's you closer to your destination with less traffic - train stations are usually downtown - airports aren't * No 'pilot problem' * No air traffic controller mayhem * Lots more room to move around on board * Makes lots of JOBS!
Please have respect for people with different abilities, especially children.
i'd rather fly on a fully automated. or remote operated plane, where human errors are less likely.
The simple fact is that there are just not enough reasons that makes one want to be an airline pilot.
Some of the downsides are:
Expensive outlay in initial training through to Commercial Pilot Licence level.
Huge time investment in hour building after that, flying usually as an instructor, hacking about with students doing their best to kill you, for nowhere near enough money to live on without a second job or two.
Even more expense to get multi engine rating, turbine rating...
Then you get to sit your ATPL.
Then if you're lucky you might get offered a job as first officer (copilot)
Then you have to do a rating on the aircraft you're going to be flying, which you'll have to pay for, and is generally stupendously expensive, or your employer pays for your rating but you are then indentured to the employer for years. All the time earning diddly-squat.
Ascending to captains chair, or onto larger types, is usually seniority based, and if you want to move to a new employer, you go back to the bottom of the ladder.
Most of the upsides are:
You get to fly planes for a living.
You get to wear a pilot hat and put bars on your sleeves.
It's just not an attractive job any more. It's not even an "impressive" job any more, once upon a time, pilots were seen as near enough to gods, today, they are barely a step above your local bus driver.
For some, getting to fly panes for a living is enough,they just love flying *that much*. But there are not enough of those people to meet the demand.
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The shortage of doctors in the U.S. is due to the AMA cartel's control over university accreditation and corresponding rent-seeking state laws requiring accreditation. The result is speed-exams when you go visit a doctor (or maybe not see the doctor at all, but rather a "nurse practitioner").
Similarly, with legislatively reduced supply of pilots, look for cattle class throughout, with even tighter row spacing. Better keep those 747's tuned up, airlines, because you're gonna need to convert them to full economy class the way Japan uses all-economy class 747's between Osaka and Tokyo.
Don't worry, even though there won't be a business class to upgrade to with your frequent flyer miles, you'll still be able to spend your miles on magazine subscriptions.
This works for everyone, everywhere.
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Airlines Face Acute Pilot Shortage
Most of the pilots I've seen are pretty fugly.
Absolutely a great face for radio!
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
Why am I not surprised that the libertarian with the malware download link completely glossed over the low pay and bad schedule?
#1. We cut their pay.
#2. We extended their hours.
#3. We jerk them around, hey, stay in Bumfuck, Idaho for a few days because it'll save us a penny. You have to pay for yourself to stay.
#4. We increased the requirements to become a pilot.
#5. We tell them daily that as soon their jobs will be taken over by the lowest bidders due to snazzy autopilot programs.
#6. Higher than ever monetary cost to enter.
I wonder why the number of pilots is dropping?
There is a problem with high speed rail. It requires good public transportation at the end nodes. It works in Europe because they have good local public transportation systems. It will not work in the US because we do not.
High speed rail is step 2, not step 1.
Step 1 is good local public transportation.
They're the bastards that cut me off of student loans (far short of their advertised maximums) when I was maybe 1/3 through a professional piloting program. I could have graduated by now and I might already have the 1500 hours the article mentions. Fuck it. I'll stick with my B.B.A. program. I'm sure I'll make more money anyways.
This article states:
-there aren't enough pilots.
-the poor airlines don't have enough money to pay for new ones, anyway.
what this really might be: the beginning of a pr campaign to make the masses more comfortable with automated aircraft.
autopilot tech has been good enough to go from takeoff to landing without human input. For a while now. My landings are prettier, but those magic boxes can do the job safely.
The real problem with full automation is that passengers feel creeped out by the idea of flying without a uniformed authority figure sitting above the nose of the plane.
Maybe this is an attempt to get the normal people onboard.
It couldn't possibly have anything to do with airlines dumping on pilots for the last couple of decades, now could it? Less pay, longer hours, training programs slashed, and pension plans reneged on repeatedly. Gee, I wonder why less people find it worth the costs in time and money to become pilots.
The airlines had three years warning about this and they're just now getting around to realizing that some action might need to be taken.
Naturally, they would have us blame the bad 'ol government and it's eeeeeeevile regulations because it couldn't possibly be that the million dollar golden boys at the top are dumber than a sack of hammers and have been eating the seed corn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1f7eZ8cHpM
time keeps on slippin slippin slipping into the future
REALLY LISTEN TO IT THIS TIME
There's a shortage of airline pilots because the job doesn't pay well any more and takes extensive training. Training most US airlines are not willing to pay for. The WSJ is whining that the FAA raised the standards for an Airline Transport Pilot rating and requires pilots to get more sleep. That's in response to the crash of Continental flight 3407 on February 12, 2009. The WSJ conveniently does not mention that.
Some airlines do pay for training. Here's the British Airways training program. BA pays pilot trainees as employees through the whole training process. Most US airlines expect pilots to work for years for less than a typical city bus driver makes to build up their hours before they fly the big iron.
A First Officer (copilot) on RyanAir starts at $3700 a month.
I am an ATP Pilot turned computer programmer. There is no shortage of pilots, just a shortage of pilots willing to work for 18k a year and be treated like crap. I went into the airlines after 4 years of college for a bachelor in Aeronautical Science, several years of flight training and being an instructor and over 100k in debt. What I found out was that the old theory of working for a commuter to build your time was gone. The major airlines outsource over 65 percent of the flying to the commuters who are now flying tons of the majors old routes. So what you have to look forward to someday is maybe making it to a major after surviving several furloughs and years of 18k in pay. Oh yeah the furloughs? They are because the majors move the flying around to whoever is cheaper, and if a commuter starts to get too powerful, they shut them down and open them back up under a different name after filing bankruptcy and selling the assets off to their new company. Over the years it has gone from needing to be super experienced and professional to guaranteeing people jobs if they pay the airlines 70k. Yes that's right people now pay them for guaranteed jobs. Oh and the crash rate? There was years without a pilot error crash, then the airlines started lowering their minimums, and requirements from college degree to heartbeat, and they plowed 3 or 4 into the ground within a few years. The whole thing is really complicated, and the airlines like it that way. On top of all this they put out propaganda that the avg pilot makes $120k a year. Guess what the average pilot now makes $22k a year, has to pay for a dump crashpad, parking, their own uniforms etc... All this for a job that you are never home and on avg is letting you get home to your family maybe 10 days a month after the bitch of commuting. Oh and on top of it, the government bails the bad airlines out every time they go into bankruptcy. United and US Air were out of business in 2005 ish time. Guess what the government came in, wouldn't let the creditors re po their airplanes, and bailed them out. So the next time you say you "won't fly this airline", don't bother. Because your tax payer money allows them to run the crappiest operation they can. Politics gets involved and they say "we have to keep the airline" x amount of people will lose their jobs. Guess what, all the airlines that were doing a good job have planes and pilots ready to go on furlough, and can help the "FREE MARKET" prosper. The problem is it's not free, especially when cities and states fund their pensions on US Airways stock, and the shit starts hitting the fan. Sincerely, a bitter ATP pilot that isn't going back to that crap hole job for less than 200k!
Let the free market take care of it.
Just as the US has faced a critical programmer shortage for the past, oh every year since "Information Week" was first published,, perhaps this pilot shortage can be filled with H1B's !!!
Why let the free market work (raise wages enough to garner more aplpicants) when you can just bribe the US government to allow lower wage workers to work those jobs instead. Perhaps these H1B's will go through pilot certification mills...."I have 1500 hours on MS Flight Simulator and a newly printed certificate from the Mumbai Aeroplane Academy.
And if you don't feel 100% safe with two of these guys/ladies in the cockpit, dont' worry instead of just two we'll put in six, that's right six pilots for the price of two...feel better?! Sully eat your heart out...
Yeah, myth busters in a sim, where the "pilot" was not tired after a long shift and had to land the aircraft already put in line with the runway, was perfectly functional, with a perfect radio connection, with no real life pressure, could land it in perfect weather conditions.
Well, here is a fucking hint, I did that WITHOUT someone talking me through it. It is fucking easy! That they even managed to crash shows how stupid these guys really are. Anyone can try it themselves, you can play with high quality sims as "games" on the PC all you want and most come with scenario's that do put you in line with the runway and all you got to do is land. As long as you don't start freaking out and jerking the controller around, you will be able to land the plane pretty easily.
The problem in real life is that when shit happens, it happens in spade. Bad weather, confusing communication, failing instruments, high pressure, lack of sleep. THAT causes accidents, not having to land fresh on a sunny day with no wind on an wide open runway.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Disclaimer: I am a private pilot, but know several commercial pilots.
That's not a disclaimer. That's a *disclosure*.
Even though the plane does more on its own, the pilots need to know about more systems, and more complicated ones at that.
We've come some way from planes with a flight stick, a couple of pedals, and a rearview mirror.
They didn't offer sufficient pay and now they don't have enough pilots. Seems pretty simple to me.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
and stop calling me "Shirley".
Well, they better start paying pilots a lot more money then. I don't see what the problem is. If they have to start charging more for tickets to cover the overhead, then they have to charge more for tickets. It is not like it is a cost that will affect one airline but not another.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Since British Airways and Iberia "merged" the first one is hiring and the second one is firing. Oh, irony, the first pays better salaries and the second one is supposed to be in red numbers due to the salaries of the employees (it's just the salaries of the big fishes).
In any case, another Spanish airline went bankrupt not long ago, and since Iberia will be also firing crews, it might be a WIN-WIN situation.
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/airline-and-commercial-pilots.htm#tab-5
Just to bring some numbers into the discussion.
Personally, I'm a private pilot, I would NEVER make this my profession - so much more money to make in IT, and working hours as a pilot are pretty bad mostly.
Don't forget that entry level pay is much less than those stats show - that's the MEDIAN (not even average).
"The median annual wage of commercial pilots was $67,500 in May 2010. Among commercial pilots, the lowest 10 percent earned less than $34,860 and the top 10 percent earned more than $119,650."
For such an important job this pay is RIDICULOUSLY LOW.
And even worse, there's a cute stewardess shortage too!
How odd, in the Netherlands we have a surplus of trained pilots. It was big news here of few weeks ago, with many freshly graduated pilots even willing to fly for known unsafe Africa/Asia based airlines just to get a job!
Some news articles (dutch) i grabbed just now via Google:
- http://www.nrc.nl/carriere/2012/10/16/zorgen-over-opleiding-en-banenmarkt-verkeersvliegers/
- (dated) http://blog.spitsnet.nl/2010/06/28/jonge-piloot-zit-zonder-baan/
Hivemind harvest in progress..
Years ago, I knew guys that wanted to become pilots. The costs were extremely prohibitive, with very few job prospects. One found it cheaper to become a lawyer. Breaking into law is a tough gig, but 20 odd years ago, becoming a pilot was much tougher. You had to be an 18 year old millionaire to get trained, and then spend at least another dozen years being unemployed before you get a job. I have no sympathy for airlines or the entire industry.
... who knows?
Maybe the gubment hikes the basic requirement to force the airline to think of the unthinkable - to employ robots as pilots
Hey, Hong Hai (Foxconn) is doing it in China, Canon is doing it in Japan, what is stopping USA from joining in the fun?
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Grittings! I am Sanjagandra and I am being your pillot for this flight to Denwer. We will be trawelling at a height of one lakh feet...
What could possibly go wrong?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
They need 60000 pilots by 2025 (i.e. in the next 13 years), and only 36000 have passed the ATPL exam in the past eight years...
60000 divided by 13, times 8, makes... 36923
Slightly less dramatic than you thought, no?
Maybe it's time they start hiring the ugly ones.
If each passenger has to pay $1.50 per hour of flight more then before they would not even notice a difference. The crew on the other hand - with 30 passengers on average and 6 hours of flight a day, 5 days a week that would add up to about $70K to split up between the two pilots.
If the rethuglicans comtinue to stall and Obama doesn't cave, then the budget for the DoD will drop and one place they can remove a lot of cost is by retiring a lot of USAF pilots.
Many of which will have a lot of flying hours.
And a requirement for lots of flying hours for civil aviation pilots...
Join the dots.
I cannot see why anyone would want to be a pilot for a living unless you just want to fly.
I was shocked when I learned that he gets no pay while sitting on the ground, the stewardesses/stewards/flight assistants (whatever), were getting like a buck fifty an hour until the doors closed.
and all this even after years of working his way up through the commuter lines to being a captain where his pay is still less than what most programmers make.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I'm certain airlines would ensure that adequate safety standards were met for aircraft and their pilots all on their own, as history has shown time and again when businesses are left to police themselves.
[snicker]
When the job is too unattractive, because of exhausting work schedules, low payment and high entry cost, then there is an easy way to fix it. Pay them more. I do not want to sit in a plane where the pilots have to think about their dept or the financial situation of their family. They should be awake and focused on the job. You normally get that with a fair salary and good working conditions. And yes when the ticket prices will go up a dollar or two. So be it.
Here's a step by step approach to becoming a commercial airline pilot:
1) Spend $15-20K on getting your private pilots license
2) Spend another $10K on your instrument, high performance, and complex ratings
3) Fly 250 hours at a cost of about $100/hr to build time and experience
4) Spend another $5-10K on a commercial rating
5) Become a flight instructor, getting paid about $10-15/hr to put your life in the hands of a student pilot - fly about 500 hours as a flight instructor
6) Spend another $5-10K on a CFII rating, so you can instruct instrument, getting a ~$2/hr raise
7) Fly another 500 hours at $12-17/hr teaching instrument
8) Spend $5-10K on Multi Engine Instrument and MEI-Instructor ratings
9) Fly 200 hours Multi
10) Apply for a first officer position at a Charter or Regional making $10-12/hr, but with benefits, if awarded job, spend $5-10K of your own money on the rating for whatever aircraft you'll be flying, and your ATP rating
11) Fly 1000-2000 hours as a first officer, and then apply for a captain position making $15-20/hr with benefits.
12) Fly 1000-2000 hours as captain for a Charter or Regional, then apply for a First Officer position for a major airline, making $20K/year - the airline MIGHT pay for your rating on their B737 or whatever you'll be flying
13) Do that for 25 years
14) On a seniority basis, you'll be able to apply for a captain position when an existing captain quits, dies, or retires. Then you'll make $100K plus.
So the short story is, you'll lay out $200K of your own money to get a job that pays $10/hr, and you'll make that for 25 years, and then maybe you'll get a left seat and make the big bucks, but chances are you won't, because you'll either get sick of working 100 hours/week for 40 hours of $10/hr pay and quit, or you'll fail your Class-1 Medical on Blood Pressure and lose your job.
Why am I not surprised that the libertarian with the malware download link completely glossed over the low pay and bad schedule?
When you're a nut every solution starts to look like a wrench coming to twist your head off..
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
See how underpaid pilots have to live and work as well as other consequences of cost cutting:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/
Also available on Netflix
At least there is not a shortage of acute flight attendants!
Kit Darby. Who for 20 years ran Air Inc. This company sold interview prep and other get you hired by the airlines services. For every year he was in business he predicted a pilot shortage was just around the corner so get in now! Air Inc has now ceased operations but he is still in aviation consulting, http://www.kitdarby.com/. Gee, after reading the artice I wonder who was the main source for this article?
Better than an ugly pilot shortage.
This is a rather silly problem. If you have a shortage of a particular kind of worker in any industry, the cause of that problem is very simple: You're not paying enough. We live in a relatively free market, when you want something that's in short supply, you get it with $$$, not whining to the press.
I'm stunned the article doesn't include the public's distaste for dealing with the TSA as a substantial contributing factor in lower patronage. I've always assumed it was at least a relevant number. I know I don't fly anymore unless unavoidable due to TSA. I've had friends lose computers at the airlines. I'm avoiding the airports, and keeping both my dignity and my property safe.
Maybe the airlines need to do some serious lobbying to get rid of the TSA, if only to be looking out for themselves? I've heard they understand it's affecting sales, but I don't see them doing anything about it other than cowering and going along with it. Ad when their customers complain, they just blame all the inconvenience on the TSA. (who really doesn't give a damn) I can't believe they have no ability to influence change here.
If they're really in as dire straights as they're saying, evicting the TSA from their terminals ought to be somewhere on their how-to-avoid-bankrupcy list.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Our experience is that UAVs require roughly twice as many pilots as manned aircraft. Apparently, sheer terror won't keep you awake when you're sitting in a building.
We need a 50-60% reduction in the number of flights. And just quadruple prices to compensate. I for one am fed up with hearing year after year after year that the airlines are in trouble and billions of dollars in the hole. Just let them massively contract. It's not as if they're doing anything like a good job.
What you have to understand is this. When the airlines talk of a pilot shortage, what they are saying is "There are only 20 applicants for each job". Normally, there are 200 applicants for each job.
The thing is most people who fly *really want to fly* and will practically prostitute themselves just to be in the air. This causes several bad things to happen. For instance, the majority of flight instructors aren't instructing because they want to, they are instructing merely to build hours to get that airline job. This means many private pilots are being trained by instructors with a few hundred hours, who aren't good teachers and have no interest in actual teaching. (This is why I found a grizzled old freelance instructor who did instruction as something on the side to his main job as an engineer, he was instructing because he cared about instructing, and also had thousands of hours of experience). That's not to say all young instructors with their eyes on the airlines are like this -- there are some who really do care, and continue to instruct after they get the coveted airline job. But at the same time, whenever I go for a checkout to rent a plane somewhere, it's not unusual that I have three times the hours than the instructor who is checking me out, and a much broader depth of experience. Aspiring airline pilots also take on some other pretty awful flying jobs such as flying canceled checks around in marginally airworthy aircraft in weather conditions they have no business flying in (single pilot IFR in a marginally airworthy light twin is pretty risky). I get the impression that half the aspiring commercial pilots would do these jobs for free, or even pay for the privilege.
Because there's never really a shortage of pilots as most normal people understand it, even during times of "pilot shortage", the pilots of smaller airliners (think the small turboprop aircraft feeding into airline hubs) are paid peanuts. You can make more as a first level supervisor at Mc.Donald's than you can as an airline first officer in these outfits. It's not until you have quite a lot of seniority and are flying a jet do you actually get a liveable wage.
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Maybe they just need to hire more cute flight attendants!
Obviously commercial aviation causes a lot of problems. Just parking your car for a one week vacation costs a fortune at the airports. Rail was a miracle in America. So if we have so many issues with passenger planes why not simply bring rails back to the forefront? Yes, trains are slower but boy can they move a lot of people and freight.
After the way they've treated pilots recently, this is absolute bullshit. The pilot shortage is because you expect pilots to overwork themselves for slave wages.
Let's take a highly skilled profession that costs tens of thousands to certify for, make them overwork themselves to the point that they are barely concious while doing something that requires incredible concentration, and then pay them slave wages...
Oh my God! Why doesn't anyone want to work there?!
maybe there will be less flights - therefore a lower carbon footprint.
and the price goes up, so those pesky lower classes will be less able to afford travel - that is the right of the elite.
There's a shortage of people who want a shit job with huge responsibility for lousy pay. Here's a solution. Figure out what it would take to pay each and every pilot at least 6 figures, and take that percentage of salary from each and every manager. I guarantee there'll be no problem paying and very soon, not shortage of pilots.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Why is this story tagged with "Obama"?
This story has nothing to do with Obama.
How about something relevant like "airline", "pilot", etc...
it's a boring job no one respects.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
That's where they hang out.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
When you're a nut every solution starts to look like a wrench coming to twist your head off
Whoa this seems to be original work. Another world-class great quotation has made its debut on Slashdot!
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Every few years some idiot journalist sees an ad for a flight school that touts there is a severe shortage. They imply that getting your pilot's license and degree (for a mere $50k to $80k) will be your ticket to riches.
I know many pilots with over 1500 hours and a commercial flight certificate that cannot get into the big airlines due to too many pilots.
we have a bunch of trained pilots sitting on their ass in guantanamo. they just need to finish their landing training. i don't think they need 6 figures either, i bet 73 virgins would do it.
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Hell, about 75% of gamers have more than 1500 hours sitting in their parents basement playing video games, drinking red bull...no problem! LOL.
At first I thought there was a shortage of good looking pilots and the air lines were forced to hire ugly ones. Fortunately its only a shortage of qualified pilots.
About 10 years ago, I got into a heated debate with a few friends over paying salaries to what I'd call high-responsibility jobs like pilots. Their answer was, well if the free market dictates a pilot make $20K/year then so be it.
Fast forward 5 or so years and we see the Continential flight 3407 accident with a copilot making $16K a year and overworked and a bottom-of-the-barrel pilot. Sometimes salaries aren't just compensation, they're an enticement for a level of professionalism and ability you want. How many people would bother with a $16K salary and years of a low-paid internship while having to deal with the responsibilities and liabilities of being an airline pilot? How excited would you be to get onto a plane knowing the pilot is overworked and making less than your daughter does waiting tables?
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
There is no way that anyone with the 250 hour current minimum for commercial flight is getting a job with any company that an ordinary citizen would identify as an "Airline". 1500 - 3000 hours has been the practical minimum since WW II when veterans with that kind of experience became available. At 250 hours you are still paying for your own flight time. To build time in between you can become a flight instructor, but jobs such as utility survey (pipline/powerline inspector), traffic, and corporate pilot are heavily over-subscribed.
Once again, a bogus "labor shortage" is being sold to us not because there aren't plenty of newly trained people eager to work, but because corporations are requiring extensive experience in the exact same position for "industry standard" wages that aren't any better than people with that experience are already getting.
> This raises the cost and time to train new fliers in an era when pay cuts and more-demanding schedules already have made the profession less attractive.
Looks like the Free Hand Of The Market is about to bitch-slap employers. Why are they surprised to lose their supply of labor when they lower pay?
The idea that airlines face an "acute shortage of pilots" is both true and untrue. Mostly untrue.
Will there be a "pilot shortage"? That depends very much on which sector of the airline industry you're talking about.
The major carriers will ALWAYS have a surplus of highly qualified candidates to choose from, coming from the regionals and the military.
At the moment there are something like 2,000 pilots still furloughed from the US majors, some of whom have been laid off for ten years or more. A friend of mine, who had worked for TWA and American, recently took a job in Dubai because decent US flying jobs are so scarce. Shortage?
At the regionals it's a slightly different story. It much depends on how the FAA and carriers interpret the new hiring standards rules. Either way, there are still going to be a thousand applications for every available job.
More here, in a column I did for Salon....
http://www.salon.com/2007/12/07/askthepilot256/
Patrick Smith
www.askthepilot.com
given that there are big differences between planes how many of these hours are on the type of aircraft in question??
small prop planes mean exactly JACK when you are dealing with Jets (and even lear jets mean JACK when you are dealing in the 7XX type of planes)
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
No, really: who says flying has to be cheap? If ticket costs skyrocket, what might happen? Here's a couple possibilities. /from airports and pre-board time).
1) Business use of video conferencing goes up.
2) People learn to take vacations nearer to home.
3) Buses and trains handle all the short-haul traffic (as it is right now, it's faster to go Boston-NY by Acela than by air when you factor in travel to
4) More sunny days due to reduced quantity of contrails.
Ok, that last one is a stretch. But I see no reason to exempt airline corporations from the rules of Economics 101.
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
But when the pilot says:
Would you be sweating pigs?
This is, in fact, a case of "I told you so."
I was attending ERAU when this measure was passed two or three years ago. The entire aviation community was in uproar.
Pilots make absolutely pathetic pay until they make it to seniority in commercial airlines or corporate jet flight. So first Washington demonized corporate jets, then raised the requirements to become even an airline *co*pilot. Now pilots are stuck making $18k/yr for five years *after* they complete their (very expensive) commercial flight training and get the bare minimum of experience in jet and large aircraft before being eligible.
For many pilots, this means the only way to become an airline pilot now is to join a military that has had its flight programs cut repeatedly and looks for absolutely any excuse not to accept new pilot trainees.
This information is all first hand experience. I have spoken to many pilots and pilots-in-training. My former roommate is currently 6 figures in debt from attending a university program (getting a flight degree is the only way to lower the legal requirements) and is so swamped he is still joining the Navy to avoid bankruptcy. The new requirements were put in place after he enrolled in school. Both the Navy and Air Force require that pilots be officers, so he has to borrow more to finish school, and even though he made friends with someone who promised him a flight school slot, the branch is making every minor medical into something he must have fixed before entering service in hopes they won't have to pay for his training(which requires a minimum of 8 or 10 years of service).
That's just one anecdote, but it's a pretty good representation of the difficulty of becoming a pilot of you don't have very wealthy parents who are willing to pay your way.
In short, way to go, Washington. You've crippled yet another industry with regulation. Wasn't the price of aircraft outpacing CPI inflation by over 300% in the last forty years enough of a warning about giving in to the pressures of ignorant, paranoid trial lawyers?
High speed rail. If it's not feasible to simultaneously make an airline profitable AND safe. Then let's build out America's high speed rail infrastructure. The rest of the world is already doing this. It will create thousands of jobs and prepare America for the next 100 years.
Yeah, you might want to do something about that "linkbucks.com" redirect. And I think I even clicked your link in the past and it didn't do that; recent development? There are plenty of other short URL providers.
What kind of a shitty union allows their members to work in the kind of conditions that would make a walmart job attractive ?
This problem has a market solution. Offer vs demand. When their planes are sitting on the ground they'll be fighting over the few remaining pilots that bothered to stay in the industry. If they actually pull their thumbs out of their nethers, fire the bottom feeding management and hand their salary to the people who do the actual work, they might make the profession attractive again in 10 years or so.
Best of luck !
is that spoiled little children like you still haven't figured out that the adults are getting tired of your self-entitled whining and tingking that we should all be honored for the privilege of being forced to clean up your messes.
I've got a rebuttal/clarification to this whole "pilot shortage" thing up on my site, for those who want to see it....
"As the pundits have it, our airlines are running out of pilots. But is this true? The fact and fallacy of the looming 'pilot shortage' "
It's on the home page, here...
http://www.askthepilot.com/
PS
A study was conducted by the University of North Dakota that says we have a pilot shortage? Haha....UND makes their money teaching people to fly (aviation degree). They should have asked some recent graduates how they're doing out there trying to find a job.
http://www.aviation.und.edu/Home/Default.aspx
If air travel becomes more expensive, alternatives like teleconferencing become more attractive. Leisure travelers may choose closer destinations or skip vacations altogether. People can also choose other modes of transport, which in the U.S. usually means driving.
One issue i didn't see anywhere below that i'll just insert here as it is as close a match as anything...
Not all the pilots moving up the chain from little to big and co-pilot to pilot may want to make that final step to pilot of one of the big boys. They also lose seniority when they move from co-pilot to pilot. My dad's best friend was a 747-level co-pilot for ages because he was top of the chart for seniority and got to chose his routes/schedules first. When you 1st move to pilot you would then get whatever route noone else wanted at a slight pay increase or even less income because of less time/easier route.
$75k income with 3 days on and 4 days off
vs
$90k income working nearly everyday for partial days
He had a farm and several days off in a row was much more productive. (ok, productive consisted mostly of building an airport in the backyard and a hanger in the barn) He had enough free time still to build a couple planes from a box of parts.
Paying pilots more will attract more pilots at the same time discouraging customers due to increased ticket prices. At some point the two trends will intersect and there will no longer be a pilot shortage. Problem solved.
No Pilot Left Behind! Aka dumb down the tests. Works in education. More slacker students wasting educational resources than you can shake a stick at!
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
Disclaimer: I am a pilot.
Pilots do not "sit back and let the autopilot do the work" in any case on approach. And, on the contrary, they are required to maintain active control over the aircraft should conditions change unexpectedly.
Watch the following video to see an ILS Category II automated landing procedure from start to finish.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MdK1Q8gdgmo
I worked for an airline that operated between 4,000 and 6,000 flights daily. After you account for the aircraft lease, flight and ground crew salaries (and per diem rates when applicable), fuel, ground operations, gate auctions, aircraft maintenance, and so on—all adding up to an appreciable sum—the average profit per flight, across the network, was about $200. Worst still, nearly every domestic flight (especially regional legs) lost money.
This is why most airliners no longer hand out free peanuts and pay their entry-level pilots between $18-30K yearly salaries.
Every player in the air transportation industry is running on razor-thin margins and the slightest perturbations cause substantial losses. How these companies have survived this long is beyond me, but it is no wonder all the major players have now filed for bankruptcy (including AMR, which was the longest-lasting hold out).
Add a dollar here, another dollar there, and before you know it you have eaten into all your profits. And before people get out their pitchforks and cry foul about how businesses are evil and greedy, realize first that they have to make profit to buy new aircraft as old equipment deteriorates, and build buffers against cancellations due to weather conditions, changes in demand, and so on.
Let me put it to you this way. Next time you find yourself in an airport, look out a window and find a jet sitting on the tarmac with its engines running. Now look at your watch. For every second that passes, that plane burnt about $20. Tick-tick-tick
As the public demands cheap airfares, the airlines have to keep costs low wherever and whenever possible.
That should be about $10, not $20.
New regs are all about making it harder to fly, so we can reduce our carbon footprints, so we can delay the end of the current ice age by another 100 years (it's coming whether we all start walking yesterday).
"There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
Federal mandates are taking effect that will require all newly hired pilots to have at least 1,500 hours of prior flight experience — six times the current minimum.
I'd rather not be able to fly because of a pilot shortage than fly in a plane piloted by someone with only 250 hours experience.