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Anonymous Attacks Israeli Websites In Response To IDF Operation In Gaza
An anonymous reader writes "On Thursday, Anonymous reported that it took down close to 40 Israeli government and security establishment websites, although the single website that they presented as having been attacked belonged to a security and cleaning services company. The report came after Likud MK Danny Danon announced earlier in the week that his website had been taken down by a group calling itself TeaM KuWaiT HaCkErS. Danon's website had been hosting an online petition calling for the Israeli government to cut off the supply of electricity going from Israel to Gaza. " A report at Russia Today puts the number at "hundreds" of sites, instead.
I don't believe Anonymous are involved in this. It's clearly not their style.
Slashdot seems to love reporting this recurring story, I guess because you can write it with mad-libs...
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
When they hack or rocket launcher or a drone, then I'll be impressed.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/hackers-attack-israeli-websites-in-response-to-idf-operation-in-gaza.premium-1.478587
From anonymous web site: http://anonnews.org/press/item/1885/
"Danon's website had been hosting an online petition calling for the Israeli government to cut off the supply of electricity going from Israel to Gaza" ... yeah, shut it down.
I don't know how to solve the problem in the region, but it's a problem that was deliberately created by creating the nation of Israel smack dab in the middle of everyone that hated them and everyone that they hated. It's past time to do something. It's too late to turn back the clock, which is unfortunate, because not doing it in the first place would clearly have been the best solution.
Israel's blockade of the strip is probably illegal, and the only people who can stop them won't because they have too much to gain by maintaining the status quo. Keeping that region in a condition of endless war keeps all of those people busy.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I wish hamas would stop firing rockets. israel is going to be forced to obliterate a lot of shit
Uh oh. Wrong people to attack! Israel will have no qualms about going after these arm chair activists and laying the hurt on. Should be fun to watch. I predict a bunch of 15-25 year old guys looking like deer in the headlights as they are led out of their house by the police.
You notice that the rocket attacks on Israel increased as the chances of Assad winning in Syria decreased. Almost like someone wanted to get Syria off the front page.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
I don't pretend to be an expert in this, but my understanding just from reading the news is that the Israelis struck Gaza because of continued rocket attacks being randomly launched into Israel. The Israelis say that in 2011 alone, at least 630 rockets were launched from Gaza. That's an average of almost two a day. Did Anonymous have anything to say about that?
Just wondering.
Don't overdo associations...
For example, from a few minutes ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20375395
"Fifty children aged four to six years old and the driver of the school bus they were on were killed when their vehicle was hit by a train in central Egypt on Saturday, officials said."
Hmmm... Who ran that train? Hmmm... Maybe an Israeli soldier or an Assad ally? Hmmmm...
No. Don't overdo associations. Shit happens in the Middle East anyhow.
I believe that this stance has made them show that they are a terrorist group. Instead of resulting to civil venues to express their cause, they are inflicting web terror to prove their point.
Anonymous are a bunch of losers. They just want to revel in the limelight and taking the Palestinian side against Israel happens to be cool among leftists, anarchists, and other spoiled children with too much time and money and not enough wisdom.
The best approach to anonymous is to ignore them. If they don't get the attention they seek, they'll go back to wanking off to online porn in their moms' basements.
I was under the impression it had something to do with the possible Internet blockade
But when the government of Israel publicly threatened to sever all Internet and other telecommunications into and out of Gaza they crossed a line in the sand.
http://www.anonpaste.me/anonpaste2/index.php?0c3787b9e504b257#4vuPTzmEXo9+uyq78aSSgvqJgb1nV5DwOZXdau60ajQ=
If I read the source they try to spin as this has something to do with the military actions which isn't really the case. I kinda hate this kind of propaganda to be honest.
Ok so I get the fact that Anonymous doesn't like Israel's response to Hamas's deliberate and repeated rocketing and shelling of Israeli civilians. But I think if Anonymous had their moral compass straight they'd be bringing down Hamas's websites as well as the web sites of any groups that are helping them. Israel isn't the only one killing people here and there is equally shared fault between Israel and Hamas for the continued escalation.
I'm no expert either, but Uri Avnery's latest article on that topic sounds quite interesting.
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1353080494/
The response isn't proportionate. It includes civilians, and isn't narrow in terms of objective, an exit plan, or scope. It isn't clearly explained to the civilians. I am not sure that these are Hamas rockets, rather than disgruntled individuals, and they waited a long time between being attacked and the response, right near an Israeli election, which is suspicious timing, esp. for the propagandists.
I can't find any evidence that Israel even threatened this or actually did. Thats the reason that 'Anonymous' claim is why they attacked.
It seems that Hamas has taken over Anonymous, because you know, anyone can be 'Anonymous' and used their naive followers as a weapon. Take that @IDFSpokesperson, taking over Anonymous one ups your Twitter account!
Look, I post as a Anonymous Coward.
Anyway, Israel after many centuries of taking it laying down, has through evolution garnered a species that has decided to just fuck you if you want to kill them. Obviously since religion(hamas, muslum, whatever) abhors evolution, and only sees divine information as reality, this war will continue. I hope that evolution wins. Don't tell me what is right or wrong, I just want science to win here.
just like Hussein did from Iraq in the first Gulf War
it changes the subject in people's minds: "it's not about Assad, it's about Israel"
Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel... obsession.
Am I the only person left on the planet who just doesn't care that much about Israel, for or against?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Yes, Israel is under constant threat of annihilation. It is the most experienced & advanced force in the ME so they better respond to every existential threat with a thousandfold in violence or else they'll be dead. 21 people killed in Israel in 11 years.
Let me repeat that: 21 killed by hamas, in 11 years.
Your chances of dying browsing /. while sitting in your boxers eating fried chicken is infinitely greater. Don't let any religious or political argument mislead you into thinking that oppression is not the reason for the current situtation.
If by 'massive' you mean less than the amount of fireworks a 5-year old lights up on the 4th of july then i tend to agree with you.
The actual list of targets was pastebinned:
http://pastebin.com/Ms4nJSZx
If it's not illegal to do so, in their native countries, some might wish to join the good guys.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
If someone attacks from behind a group of civilians it is on them when the civilians get killed. Using civilians are human shields is a war crime. Killing a combatant who is using civilian human shields is NOT a war crime (even if the civilians are smegged in the attack).
If I were a pali and I saw a missile battery going up in a gradeschool playground, I'd get my kid out of the area (at the very least). They're call.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Clearly Israel will lose now! What they are doing is the eqilivent of vanaliIng a bathroom at wal-mart and acting like the company is going down because of it.
SJWs are the new boogeyman. -Me
Anonymous is probably not. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Anonymous is an clandestine arm of a large first world government security agency. Regardless, by acting as a "good guy" who challenges the "system", Anonymous then becomes an attractive Honeypot from which to monitor and possibly ensnare "real threats" to "democracy".
I wouldn't mind joining the "good guys". Unfortunately, there aren't any "good guys" over there. The smart ones have moved on, to places such as Canada, or the United States, and have made lives for themselves. The good ones are dead. (only the good die young) All that's left on either side are the dumb evil bastards.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
...taking the Palestinian side against Israel happens to be cool among leftists, anarchists, and other spoiled children with too much time and money and not enough wisdom.
And taking Israel's side is a wiser choice because ....?
Isn't Israel the ones who are stealing land and building "settlements" on that land? And where there is a chance for peace, isn't it the "Settlers" who start something because they don't want to give up the land they stole? Actually, it was the IDF who steals it under the guise of "security".
See, this is the way I see it: you have two groups of people who want the same piece of land. One group did a marvelous job of playing off World powers and sucked them into what basically amounts to a pathetic, self righteous, piss-ant little local conflict.
We in the West should let these pathetic little people kill one another off and we should keep our noses out of it.
Lastly, anyone who thinks Israel is some sort of innocent victim here is a moron. If Israel really wanted peace, all they have to do is pull those squat...Settlers out, move the borders back to where they were in 1967, and give the Palestinians their own state.
And all the bullshit being said about Israel's destruction is just that bullshit. That's just rhetoric from some folks who have no skin in this conflict - like Iran - who want to just stir shit up and and in the process give Israel more power in the propaganda battle.
Yes. You've been their and spoken to people - on both sides.
You HAVE to ask yourself this: "From what source do I get my information, and how many levels of mediation are between me and the original source".
You will find that your experience and understanding are built upon layers of unproven trust.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
I'm sorry. There is a very clear villain and I am not wrong. The villain is extremist religionists on ALL sides who (to paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, who made this argument far better than I ever could) poison the dialogue with their absolutist demands which they back up using the force of their chosen celestial sky wizard and his holy books.
The vast vast vast majority of people on both sides favor a two state solution. the US wants this too, as does virtually everybody else. its the obvious answer. why dosen't it happen?
because of people who think that whose first accountability is to some god, not their fellow man.
they are the villians in this drama. no ands, ifs, or buts.
So anonymous took down a bunch of websites. Even as a nerd, I'm trying to figure out what part of this news actually matters.
Israel is pasting Palestine into a bloody smear, so anonymous takes down some of their websites. Oooooooh! I'm bet they're reeeeal scaaaaared now! Thanks to anonymous' DDOS, the war is going to stop! (Preemptive Whoosh here for those who couldn't figure out that the above was sarcasm.)
If they manage to do what they did with that law firm whose name I've already forgotten (during the DDOS they managed to steal a great deal of very incriminating documents, which ultimately destroyed the company), then that would be something.
Taking down an Israeli website? Big whoop. What next? Putting a paper bag full of dog crap by the front door of some Israeli person, setting it on fire, and ringing the doorbell?
I'm seeing much mentioning of rockets. Can anyone explain what kind of rockets are coming from Gaza? I was always under the impression that Gaza didn't have anything that menacing.
Quoted as if that's a terribly hawkish thing to say?
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
^ Search that text for both "jew" and "zion" just to get you started. Here's just a random snippet -- if you think I'm quoting out of context, well... feel free to find me something better, that explains stuff like this away :/
The way I read that:
The Jews kill women and children, so let's just fire rockets at Isreal without discrimination. Let's attack school buses even! It's just Jews, it's not bad when you do it to *them*. Some gibberish about the greedy, honourless Jew, then kinda implying they're murderers even when they don't murder, (so they can be murdered in response to that, I guess).
The solution: Let's be fascists ya'll. One for all, and all against the Jews.
Was that being polemic? Or am I just paying attention? You tell me. One thing is sure, that Charter surely obsesses about Islam, Zionism and Jews. So if they're an anti-semitic terrorist organization, doesn't seem crushing them like, uhh, the best alternative? What would you do instead, talk to them real nice?
None of this justifies actions by Israel that aren't okay; I'm just saying, wtf. If you're gonna pretend that other bunch of backwards assholes are just fine, then you have just as big a problem.
FTFY.
"Yes. You've been their and spoken to people - on both sides."
Yes, I have. You are being sarcastic, of course. You assume that I've never seen any of the mid-east. You assume that I get all my information from one or another biased big-media news source. But, I HAVE been over there. Beruit City was the most exciting and/or dangerous place that I have ever seen, with multiple armies and armed groups maneuvering in the countryside, as well as in the city. I was there before the Marines arrived to safeguard the remainder of the civilians.
Don't assume anything, my friend.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
(laughing at you)
oh wait, you are serious? the israelis just have to WISH for peace?
those warmongers! how dare they stand in the way of those peaceful arabs.
they should do as the arabs say and just lie down and be killed. peacefully
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Until the participants begin turning up dead with small caliber gunshots to the back of the head.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
There are 350 million Arabs and Muslims in the MENA region, Israel with their ~6.5 million Jewish population is the clear aggressor, having killed thousands while also imprisoning over a million people in the world's largest prison. Inevitability dictates that the situation will not last much longer. Even apartheid South Africa lasted less than fifty years. The Arab Spring continues...
The vast vast vast majority of people on both sides favor a two state solution. the US wants this too, as does virtually everybody else. its the obvious answer. why dosen't it happen?
Where do you get the idea that Palestinians want a two state solution ? They HAVE a two state solution in Gaza, and yet they still attack. So this is clearly not what they want.
Of course, if you look at the stated aims of the Palestinian state, here on wikipedia one of their stated aims is to kill every last Jew walking this earth. Various reasons are given, from outright conspiracy theories, to stating (with a direct and correct quote from islamic holy texts I might add) that allah not just wants every Jew eliminated, but will actively help accomplish that.
If you assume that hamas is indeed religious, there is no solution to this conflict short of the elimination of either side.
Hamas was created in 1987. That's forty years after half of the population of Gaza was expelled from what is now Israel (people who aren't allowed to return to their own homes have been expelled, no matter why they left.) Hamas was also created after twenty years of brutal military occupation and blockade. During that entire twenty years, Israel confiscated land and attempted to colonize it by creating "settlements" for the exclusive use of Jews. That colonization continued for another twenty years before Israel decided to just bring the entire population to the brink of starvation, perhaps in hopes that the undesirables would leave en mass so Israel can continue it's century long drive to make Greater Israel "United, Free, and Jewish."
Of course, that has nothing at all to do with the founding of Hamas. They are simply antisemites with an irrational hatred of Zionism and Jews.
Borders change all the time. Israel has been established long enough now that people in the region need to accept it even if they don't like it. The Palestinians need to stop fighting a war that should have been over years ago. Israel is heavy handed and inflammatory, but I imagine that most countries would be after decades of terrorist attacks. This mess won't end until the Palestinians elect a government whose priority is to help their people. Hamas is more interested in hurting Israel and spouting off hate than anything else. The Palestinians would be in a much better place if they invested all the money they spent on missiles into infrastructure instead, and if they protested peacefully, publicly and en masse instead of using violence.
Hamas can very well be fascists, but can they be labeled anti-Semites? Aren't the Arabs themselves grouped as Semitic people? So as I see it, aren't Arabs and the Jews much closer ethnically than the Europeanised(?) Jewish settlers there?
The dome of the rock is a Christian Church (the Temple church, you may have heard from the knights Templar, well, this is the Temple Church they refer to). Please don't obliterate it. Obliterate the mosque next to it if you must, but really, please don't.
Even just the historical value of those buildings ...
They have some of the brightest software engineers/hackers in the world. They also have secret military forces that have popped up in other countries to selectively kill people they consider enemies to their state. Put two and two together...
And the typical guilt trips, the oldest trick in the book. I don't like Israel anymore than I do extremist Islam. So fuck you both.
I say we nuke the site from orbit. It is the only way to be equal.
I disagree. Although the religious nut-balls are certainly holding part of the blame, this is fundamentally a political issue. The Palestinians are upset because the UK, an occupying body, decided to allow millions of jews to move to Palestine to get away from the dickhole Germans who allowed Hitler and his crew to break shit.
It was a seriously hard to solve problem, primarily because of the great historical racism that existed against the jews. Something had to be done, but we are dealing with the repercussions of the idea now.
Now the Palestinians don't want to be occupied by the jews, and it's my understanding that the jews are in the majority in the borders of israel + gaza + west bank. That's why the two state solution is seemingly the best option, so the muslims can have their facist authoritarian government that executes people for possession of hash, and the jews can have their vacationer income.
Unfortunately, the back and forth violence that has been going on since the 50's(?) has made it impossible to get past the finger pointing in negotiations. I'm disgusted with the situation. Israel is a thorn in the side of American foreign policy and their actions of late have been insane, however the actions of the other side are equally insane which makes the situation untenable. In the past, this shit would have been solved with a war, but the way politics works today, it won't come to war unless it's a world war...
OK, yes, using civilians as human shields is a war crime, and more, it is a reprehensible and cynical act that should be condemned universally in the strongest possible terms.
Having said that, I think you'll find that killing the human shields as a predictable effect of engaging these cowards in a certain way is emphatically NOT automatically "OK" as a consequence. There is always going to be collateral damage in armed conflict, but the bar for exercising due care in combat under such conditions is high. Even "smart" weapons kill innocents. They are much better than "dumb" weapons, but a ground operation where you only engage those who individually offer armed resistance is "better".
And yes, if I were a member of the public and these cowards started hiding amongst my family and those of my neighbors and fellows, I would consider either fleeing or organizing community action to "discourage" these cowards from following that policy, even engaging them with force. But asking this of peaceful civilians is asking an AWFUL LOT. I don't know how much effort Israel expends to warn civilians in specific areas of impending action, so I can't really speak to specifics in the present case.
Why not? The Mufti of Jerusalem ('Palestinian' leader) was allied with the Nazis and had plans in place to give up the middle eastern Jews for extermination.
In both cases the aggressor was forced to give up land after starting, then losing a war. It is exactly the same issue.
You are so right. And we should go back to Roman times and whenever a peoples (Israel) threatened an empire (US), they would be exterminated. The Germans knew this too.
So, I agree with you, Israel needs to be exterminated.
Dear OeLeWaPpErKe, you useless zealot: it would take all of one google search for "Hamas two state solution" to find plenty of evidence to support the obvious notion that Hamas in principle is not opposed to a two state solution. All I see evidence for is that you are a piece of biased filth that chooses to tar an entire population with some random highly contentious bit of rhetoric in what is obviously a complex issue as if it wasnt possible to find similar rhetoric on both sides. I mean, DO YOU THINK WE ARE STUPID? Do you think ANY reader here couldn't find similar rhetoric on the Israeli side?
Nytimes, May 5 2011: Hamas Leader Calls for Two-State Solution, but Refuses to Renounce Violence
as much as I took issue with Sun's categorizations, I do think his system is right on in classifying you, OeLeWaPpErKe, as a biased fool and part of the problem. You and your attitude are a direct obstacle to peace. Step aside and piss off.
"From what source do I get my information, and how many levels of mediation are between me and the original source".
You will find that your experience and understanding are built upon layers of unproven trust.
Said the Pot to the Kettle.
Was designed in Israel.
But Murdoch has them too busy hacking into competitors networks and decoder boxes for them to do any innovation lately...
Laters Sol "Have you found the secrets of the universe? Asked Zebade "I'm sure I left them here somewhere"
so-called arab spring is bullshit.
but keep believing that they are fighting for anything close to democracy.
(hint: they want MORE islamist concepts and laws. not less. this is not any kind of 'spring'.)
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Something to think about, since it appears you haven't: and what if an Assad attack against Israel pulls in Egypt and throws all the Palestinians into full all out war mode. Hmmmm?
All of those combined military forces would not be able to do much to Israel. Palestine has been at nearly a full state of war for years already, so it's not like they can do more than the random rockets they already fire into Israel every day. Egypt is hurting and if they put too much military into fighting Egypt they will be toast from internal riots.
Iran is the only one with much of a military force, but guess what would be a big old christmas present to Israel? A first strike from Iran to give Israel a reason to strike ANYWHERE within Iran using ANY weapon. Every nuclear plant in Iran is a smoldering pile of rubble within one hour of an attack from Iran on Israel directly.
That also is true for Egypt and Palestine too you know. If either of them declare "war" war, then Israel gets to take the gloves off instead of having to worry about faked videos of injured people in Palestine.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Move one group to the middle of africa. Theres plenty of space.
Move the other group to the middle of south america. Also plenty of space.
Tell them to stay the fuck away from each other.
Nuke the 'holy land' they're fighting over until it looks like the moon. Rocks, dust, craters. And dump all the worlds toxic waste there. So NOBODY gets or wants this land for the next billion+ years.
Not a great solution. but it is a solution. and a permenant one at that. the other shit we've tried hasnt worked for the past 3000+ years they've been fighting over there... At what point do we just step in and take all their toys away and send them to the corner?
tired of this shit. i don't know who started being a douchebag there first. but havent we all had enough from both sides yet?
Palestinians put civilians in harms way by putting launch sites on, near or in sensitive areas(schools, playgrounds, mosques and hospitals.) They go out of their way to use civilians as human shields. They store their munitions in places where it's illegal to do so(schools, mosques, and hospitals along with occupied civilian structures). Very long history of every factional, and terrorist power there doing this. And the "public" there voted the current generation of terrorists into power.
But for those not forgetting, since the 14th there's been over 1000 rocket and mortar attacks against Israel from them.
Om, nomnomnom...
Someone tore down posters hung up by Israel!! Anonymous has ladder technology! Oh noes!
-Turkey
When enough Israeli's quit succumbing to the psychology of victim's complex
It's hard to claim it's a complex when daily people are firing military rockets into civilian towns.
Sometimes a victim really is a victim.
If you had rockets being fired at you constantly perhaps you would shift your viewpoint slightly to one of trying to not have rockets fired at you constantly.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
So, Hamas fires 200 rockets into Israel. Israel retaliates and "anonymous" cyberattcks their web sites. Yes, you are the villian if you do something about someone shooting rockets into your city.
Every time an issues likes this comes up liberals love to paint Israel as the villian, they swear they are not anti-semetic and they NEVER answer the question what they would do if someone fired rockets into their home town.
I never see American critiques turning over their land to a Native American foundation and moving to Europe. Ditto for Europeans, they have all lived on each others land ( after slaughtering for it ) for time immoralial. Lets not remind them of how Muslims are treated in their countries either.
Israel is in the wrong. Period.
If you want to argue those piss-ant points like "Legality" then Israel should be destroyed because they are land thieves. Period.
And you sir are a liar.
As long as Israel is shutting down their internet from inside israels borders it is not illegal or wrong. The Palestinians want their own country they have to build their own internet link instead of depending on Israel.
if anonymous really cared the would be in the Gaza strip helping them get a connection from say Egypt .
it just proves nobody actually cares about the Palestinians. If they did they would actually help them instead of using them for their personal gain.
If anyone still believed that Anonymous stands for anything other than DDoSing websites for the lulz, entering a war on the side of a randomly chosen party will be an eye opener for them.
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war." It's true and everyone knows it. If you think it's false you are just lying to yourself. I currently live in Jerusalem and this is the only thing anyone talks about here. We all agree that this is as far from what we want to be doing as possible. We have no problem stopping. "self-defense" or "retaliation" is necessary because sitting idly hasn't accomplished anything. Unless Hamas gets destroyed now there will be no end. Hamas cannot destroy Israel, it's simply physically impossible. But they will never stop shooting a rocket here, shooting a rocket there, because they can get away with it.They just want us dead. We just want to live.
It's completely predictable that if you are firing standoff weapons at someone they will fire standoff weapons back. It's a better outcome then sending in troops because you actually kill the hogfuckers. By the time the troops get there all you will find is the civilians.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Make up your mind. Are you saying it's the fault of the Jews that they Hamas are antisemites, or that Hamas aren't even antisemites?
Also, this sentence could not be parsed, maybe try again: "people who aren't allowed to return to their own homes have been expelled, no matter why they left."
Clearly all problems in the world would disappear in a puff of smoke if not for religion. Dream on, kid.
Also note: Even the french are brave enough to run. Willing human shields are combatants.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
But actually, you raise a good point. Why are we still using the euphemism(!) a bunch of stupid Jew haters came up with?
Dude, whatever.
In THIS situation the ONLY party that has to power to stop this bullshit is ISRAEL. PERIOD. And it's up to them - period.
They have the power. They have the weapons. They have their dumb retard big brother - the US - to back them.
So, what's the fucking problem?!
You've successfully narrowed it down to "the villain is everybody (but atheists)". Congratulations.
Let me know when you have a vaguely rational view of the actual, political and territorial, bases of contention that have existed worldwide since long before there was any religion for you to blame.
Wow, where do you live? In New Zealand we don't routinely arm our police, although they do carry firearms secured in the boot of their vehicles. If a youth threatens a cop with a weapon they'll be tasered if that is on hand ir shot if a taser is not available. Youths on the drug P have been carrying golf clubs smashing things up and after warnings from cops they have been shot and killed. If you live in a country even more passive than New Zealand I'd be interested to know.
However, you are missing the real point of this thread. Israel is taking great pains to avoiding killing children,. They have aborted numerous airstrikes (at the cost of hundreds of thousands of shekels) at least according to the IDF YouTube page; they also spend millions inventing the Delilah missile that is designed with an abort option to prevent civilian casualties; they have also sent out 12,000 texts and dropped leaflets to tell civilians to move away from rocket storage facilities.
Hamas, on the other hand cynically launches rockets from house yards and schools - hoping to make 'inoluntary matyrs' of the inhabitants when the Israelis try get the launchers.
So, given that Israel tries to preserve life (of both Israeli and Arab civilians) and Hamas tries to destroy it (of both Israeli and Arab civilians) it should be pretty clear to any unbiased observer who is decent and who is not. Unfortunately, many people are not unbiased and report lies as facts. eg. they slurp up all of Hamas' propaganda due to their misplace hatred of Israel. Example of Hamas lying (as it often does):
Hamas' Claims: True or False?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWSuWFbiYGM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl0lMjI1d5c
Hamas lies routinely, believing falsehoods are permitted by the Islamic principle of Taqiyyah ('religious dissimulation => blatant lying):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya
while also imprisoning over a million people in the world's largest prison
They sent them to Australia?
"Yes. You've been their and spoken to people - on both sides."
Yes, I have. You are being sarcastic, of course. You assume that I've never seen any of the mid-east. You assume that I get all my information from one or another biased big-media news source. But, I HAVE been over there. Beruit City was the most exciting and/or dangerous place that I have ever seen, with multiple armies and armed groups maneuvering in the countryside, as well as in the city. I was there before the Marines arrived to safeguard the remainder of the civilians.
Don't assume anything, my friend.
Well I haven't been to Gaza or Israel for about 8 months, so perhaps this is out of date, however I know your original statement
Unfortunately, there aren't any "good guys" over there.
is a load of crap. There's plenty of people trying to live nice normal lives in Israel, and live in fear of Hamas rockets landing on them every day. It's a terrible situation to be in.
On the other side of the fence (literally), there's plenty of people trying to live nice normal lives in Gaza, and live in fear of Israeli warplanes bombing them. Several of them spy for Israel, that's how the IDF manage to get so many targets. If they're caught, they're killed.
Given the mismatch in the power of each side, and the quality of housing, and the fact one side is governed by a terrorist organisation, means it's a lot more dangerous to live in Gaza than live in Ashkelon.
Some people in Israel near the border are bugging out, fleeing their homes to go to the north until things quieten down again. I don't blame them. A friend in Jerusalem was worried enough when the rocket landed nearby.
They're lucky to have that option, both having the money to escape, but also the freedom to move more than 30 miles from where they're born. On the whole though, they can't think it's that bad living near Gaza as there's little stopping them moving north (or south).
People in Gaza don't have that choice. I have a magic western passport and GPO card, it enables me to pass through Erez into Israel more-or-less at will. People in the West Bank can move a little, and even go abroad, but people born in Gaza - on the whole - don't have the ability to leave. 99.999% of them are born, live, and die in an area 1/10th the size of Rhode Island, but 150% the population. They have to grow their food, power their houses, teach their kids, and bury their dead in that slab of land.
"Good guys" in the post I answered to seemed to refer to either the Zionists, or to Hamas, or both. To me, it didn't seem to refer to individual people.
There are no good guys, on the political front, any more than we have any good guys in our own political system
As INDIVIDUALS, I've met a number of Israelis that I liked, and respected. I've met fewer Palestinians that I liked, as a result of having met fewer Palestinians than I have met Israelis.
Let's move north a little. I've met a LOT of Lebanese that I like, including one that I attended school with. But, the parties that determine what happens in Lebanon? They are all dipshits. Most of them have less loyalty to the PEOPLE of Lebanon, than Hamas has to the Palestinians.
So, if you follow my reasoning, maybe you can agree, or at least understand: There are no "good guys" to join in the Mideast. No matter which side prevails, a lot of good people - good individuals - are going to be fucked over, and fucked royally.
IMO, the really evil bastards in the region, are those in Tehran. Of course, the United States gave those evil bastards their power, indirectly, as a result of Operation Ajax.
Installing a spineless puppet dictator may have seemed like a good idea in the 1950's, but the eventual reaction to the puppet is an abomination.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
"Hamas Leader Calls for Two-State Solution" is of course a taqiyyah - a deliberate lie to gain temporary advantage (neutralize the West until Israel is destroyed; and then the establishment of the Caliphate in the West can start in earnest).
First off, Dumbass, try learning English, laws are discrete items and therefore your sentence should read:
(hint: they want MORE islamist concepts and laws. not FEWER. this is not any kind of 'spring'.)
Secondly, you seem not to understand the concept of democracy, it involves universal suffrage, where everyone gets to vote on decisions with the majority opinion being implemented. So if the the majority happen to be religious nutcases then democracy will produce more religious laws.
But I suspect your problem is that your are one more simpleton 'Merkin who eqautes Democracy with the fetid corruption you wallow in.
Lol. The war continues because the Salafis wish to re-establish the Caliphate. They're starting on Israel before tackling the West. Fortunately, swathes of dim-witted dhimmis like you will make this go smoothly. If you don't understand what 'Salafis' or 'dhimmis' are then perhaps you are ignorant on what is really going on, yeah? Get the facts bro and get a clue. You are backing islamofascists and opposing the only state with Enligtenment values in the whole accursed region. If you care about human dinity and human rights then your statement is the reverse of what it should be. Stop promoting evil.
True. The Brotherhood wants the Caliphate back.
It's not that. The Jew respects your right to life your life the way you want. The Muslim cannot accept this because the Qur'an commands them to not accept this. It is not only about the iolent things you point out, is is also about what you eat, who you talk with, what rights your sister, daughter and mother has, whether you can even question iyour government etc. That is what really matters.
That page is so full of lies that it doesn't even try to hide it.
Ezekiel 23:20
While I can relate to the general sentiment, I do have issues with a few of the details.
They're lucky to have that option, both having the money to escape, but also the freedom to move more than 30 miles from where they're born.
By and large, the people living in those regions are among the least rich the Israeli society have. Escaping during times of war is mostly sponsored by volunteers.
Be that as it may, the Palestinian's inability to escape is offset, to some (not large) degree, by the fact that those good people are not actively targeted by the IDF. As opposed to the good people living on the east of the fence, who know that the rockets are aimed in order to kill them.
On the whole though, they can't think it's that bad living near Gaza as there's little stopping them moving north (or south).
Please tell me you are not seriously saying that your solution for someone living in Sderot and who is sick of being constantly targeted is to move.
People in Gaza don't have that choice. I have a magic western passport and GPO card, it enables me to pass through Erez into Israel more-or-less at will. People in the West Bank can move a little, and even go abroad, but people born in Gaza - on the whole - don't have the ability to leave.
And yet, they keep telling me Hamas was elected in democratic elections. This means that the majority of those very same people WANTED crazy terrorists who's proclaimed aim is to kill Jews to be their leaders. I wonder what the people casting a Hamas vote thought would happen next.
Now, before you accuse me of muddying the water, I am not trying to disclaim your statement that most of these people are good people who really just want to live in piece. I am saying, however, that the Palestinians should be smarter regarding who they choose as their leaders. Much though I ache for the Palestinian suffering (and I do), if it's them or us, I rather it be them. If they don't like it, they should stop making it a "them or us" situation.
They keep telling us it is illegitimate for us to interfere with whoever the Palestinians choose as their leaders. I accept both the moral correctness of that statement, as well as the practical wisdom behind it. The flip side, however, is that whoever the Palestinian do choose is the one who will be representing them, for better or for worse. In the case of Hamas, it is for worse. Until they do something about it, the people, good though they are, will have to eat the stew that their crooked, crazy leadership have prepared for them.
Shachar
The vast vast vast majority of people on both sides favor a two state solution. the US wants this too, as does virtually everybody else. its the obvious answer. why dosen't it happen?
Because in order to have a 2-state solution, Israel would have to withdraw to the 1967 borders, and shut down its settlements.
Some of the settlers claim to believe in their nationalistic irredentist mission to populate the historical land of Israel, but some of them just want a nice cheap house with a swimming pool within driving distance from their job in Jerusalem.
I don't know if they really believe in this religion or if it's just an excuse that they use. As Rupert Murdoch said in a different context, "You don't really believe that rubbish, do you?"
I think it can be explained by evolutionary biology more easily than religion. Throughout evolution, one tribe has always exterminated their neighbors and taken their land, sometimes capturing their women, sometimes not. Biologists see that today with chimpanzees in their native habitat.
The vast vast vast majority of people on both sides favor a two state solution.
I need to clear a bit of misinformation on that point.
When Israel, US leaders and most westerners hear "two states", they are assuming we are talking about "two states for two people". In other words, one Jewish state of Israel, and one Arab (or, more precisely, Muslim) state of Palestine. This, however, is not what Arab leaders mean when they say two states.
When Arab leaders say "two states", they mean one Muslim state for the Palestinians, and one non-national state where Israel was. This non-national state will then have to accept everyone who lived in Palestine for the two years prior to May 1948 plus all of their descendents (5 million people) as citizens. What this means in practice, is that when Abu Masen says "two states", he is actually referring to two Arab states.
Feel free to prove me wrong. Show me a statement by a Palestinian official where they acknowledge the right of a Jewish state called Israel to exist.
Lemme ask you this: who would you rather have move into the neighborhood: an Arab or a Jew?
Would I rather have a secular, peace-loving arab http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzeldin_Abuelaish or a violent settler Jew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir ? I'll take the Arab any day.
>The villain is extremist religionists on ALL sides
Only one side is actually driven by religious extremists, and it's not Israel. Israeli settlers tend to be religious, but they not religious extremists, nor did they originally settle for religious reasons. At most, they're political extremists if you define wanting to keep living where you've been living as "extreme," and were originally planted there by a secular government who used no religious claims when they did so. The government needed more space for people and thought they could live side by side with the local Arabs peacefully, which they did from 1967 until the first Intifada in 87, i.e. until Islamic extremism flared up.
>The vast vast vast majority of people on both sides favor a two state solution.
You obviously don't know anybody on either side to make that kind of statement, and obviously haven't looked at any polls regarding the issue for that region.
How many five-year olds light up rockets with high explosive warheads on the 4th of July?
Ezekiel 23:20
Egypt is also blocking them. Israel can't do anything to prevent Egypt from opening up the Gaza strip. Why don't you bitch about Egypt? Egypt has decided the blockade is in the best interest of security like Israel has. If you really cared you would help the Gazans see that being so stubborn and violent against Israeli is only harming themselves.
The Palestinians are upset because the UK, an occupying body, decided to allow millions of jews to move to Palestine to get away from the dickhole Germans who allowed Hitler and his crew to break shit.
I didn't answer the question of who created this problem above because I knew, sooner or later, someone would state it clearly. As it turns out, it took an AC. Thanks.
It was a seriously hard to solve problem, primarily because of the great historical racism that existed against the jews. Something had to be done, but we are dealing with the repercussions of the idea now.
And that's the story precisely. You take a group of people who were driven out of a place and then put them back and then see how it turns out, it's not going to be happy for someone and possibly not for anyone. If they deserve to be there then let us talk about every other people that was ever displaced. Do they all deserve to be let back to their ancestral lands? We all come out of Africa, does that mean it should be parceled out among us?
Unfortunately, the back and forth violence that has been going on since the 50's(?) has made it impossible to get past the finger pointing in negotiations.
And that's the thing; it hardly matters who threw the first stone if the Palestinians are bombing the Israelis for starving them and the Israelis are starving the Palestinians for bombing them. Besides, the UK threw the first stone in this chapter and now they're sitting at a safe remove and scratching their heads about what to do about the situation like everyone else, assuming they're even ready for it to get better; frankly, any asshole with the slightest grasp on reality could have foreseen that this would be the result of such a policy, and so I can only assume that it was done deliberately. It would be comforting to believe that it was simply an error of judgment, but it wasn't just an off-the-cuff action by a single individual and so that idea is laughable at best.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
When someone starts a war, they might lose territory. Poland stole huge parts of Germany after WWII. The problem with the Arabs is that they have never accepted that they lost and they have continued to fight since their first attack. Israel has never done anything but engage in a defensive war against an enemy that is not only set on destroying their country, but all non-Arabs in the region. The goal of Hamas, the PLO etc is not the creation of an Arab state, it is the genocide of all non-Arabs, Jews, Christians, Copts. Anything non-Arab.
The problem is, they lost. Every time. Then they lose territory. Tough shit. Now stop fighting or forever be condemned to live under occupation.
Here is an analogy for you. What would Germany be today if they had refused to sign a peace treaty and continued with terrorist attacks in London, New York, Washington, Paris and Moscow today. Every day since 1945. That is what the Arabs in the region have done. Non-stop terror since they lost a war. They refuse to sign a peace treaty. When Arafat came back after signing the Oslo treaty he said on Egyptian news that his signature had no meaning, that he had no intention of keeping to the treaty and that the PLO ten point plan was still in effect. That plan calls for the extermination or deportation of all non-Arabs from the region (that is, of course, unless they convert to Islam),
If the Arabs lay down their weapons, that means the end of this conflict.
If the Israeli lay down their weapons, that means the end of Israel.
As someone else pointed out, willing human shields are combatants. If the majority of Palistinians actually wanted peace, there would be no Hamas, there would be no (or very few) terrorists. These terrorists have broad popular support. If a terrorist group took up arms around children where they live, the would be dead before the fired a single rocket. Strung up on lamp posts like they deserve. As long as the terrorists have popular support, the populace is sadly valid targets.
As an Israeli once said, there will not be peace in the Middle East until the Arabs start loving their children more than they hate Israel.
Unfortunately, there aren't any "good guys" over there.
is a load of crap. There's plenty of people trying to live nice normal lives in Israel, and live in fear of Hamas rockets landing on them every day
I don't fool myself into thinking that there are good guys anywhere. Every citizen in the USA, including myself, shares responsibility for Obama's Nobel Prize-winning campaign of drone strikes, and every citizen of Israel shares culpability for the ongoing incarceration (behind walls) and general poor treatment of the Palestinians just as every Palestinian (I use the names because it's the names we use, so sue me) shares culpability for what their side is doing.
Yes, nationalism is a big responsibility, but as long as people are doing stuff in your name, or my name, you or I have a responsibility to hold them accountable, and if we don't then we share the blame.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
OK, yes, using civilians as human shields is a war crime, and more, it is a reprehensible and cynical act that should be condemned universally in the strongest possible terms.
Having said that, I think you'll find that killing the human shields as a predictable effect of engaging these cowards in a certain way is emphatically NOT automatically "OK" as a consequence
It didn't interfere with Obama getting a peace prize, I'd say it's emphatically automatically "OK" ... if you're the "good guys".
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
but those who are born in Gaza have poor prospects right from birth and they are suffering constant collective punishment. It really isn't surprising that some of them become radicalized and fight. Remember that if you are born in Gaza, chances are you will never have the opportunity to leave Gaza. It's essentially the world's largest open air prison.
We will be with you. No matter how dark it may seem, no matter how alone and abandoned you may feel - know that tens of thousands of us in Anonymous are with you and working tirelessly around the clock to bring you every aid and assistance that we can.
Yes, hiding behind keyboards thousands of kilometers away in perfect safety.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
Offtopic?? That's because you idiot moderators fail to see the link when you spew that "Anonymous" is nothing but a bunch of braggarts in their claims, but because the government says so, you believe that Osama's claims are a "confession" of some sort. The government's "case" is a conspiracy theory, no better than the truthers you disparage. Fuck off, you stupid shits!! Fuck you sideways!!
Why does egypt have a closed border with Gaza? Why does Jordan have a closed border with the west bank? Israel isn't the only party guilty of blockading the palestinians.
Not to take away from the suffering of the Arabs, but they are the ones who elected Ham as. They chose to continue their pointless and racist assault on the Jews target than develop their own civilization. Blaming Israel (who supplies them with money electricity and water) for poor conditions on Gaza is wrong-headed.
could it be?
Let me repeat that: 21 killed by hamas, in 11 years.
This is so far from the truth I have to assume you are knowingly attempting to mislead. See this list of Hamas victims for accurate information. There's other sources of info if you think that web site is part of some conspiracy. I counted about 60 people killed by Hamas in the last 4-5 years alone, including several children.
You seem to be attempting to note that relatively few Israelis have been killed by rockets- so it's OK to fire rockets at people who have bomb shelters? Is that really how you think, that it's acceptable to shoot at people if you usually miss? If the terrorists stopped firing rockets, and their other indiscriminate attacks against Israeli civilians, Israel would not be bombing Gaza. If Hamas stopped sending suicide bombers and other terrorists into Israel, there would be no reason for the blockade. Who would be out of power without the blockade? Hamas. So you are right that this is about oppression- by Hamas, against their fellow Palestinians. Hamas is the only one who benefits from the violence.
Agreed that you're more likely to die from eating fried chicken- that stuff is tasty, but terrible for you.
hmm
So just because you are born there now, you must be evil , so not worthy of a normal life ? Regardless of sides , there are always innocent victims.
The ones who can't get out, because they don't have the money or power to get out.
They suffer every day, on both sides.
As always, it's not the everyday people who are the problem here, it's those who have power ( on either side ) , and just want to have more of it.
Slipping shoelaces ?
I have been wondering if this attack on gaza was probably somehow fixed by blaming israel? Seems odd that all this talk about obama trying to ruin this country, how he stole elections, ignore to meet with the pm Netanyahu at the time, the list can go on and on, but all this suspicion is getting to me. I wonder if it this was somehow intended to be on purpose to bomb gaza. Like maybe obama had insiders to do that with his radicals on the left side because how muslim he is they say, that he caused this in someway? I don't really know what to think. I would say God blessed all, Just suspicious in how he won the election, then ahmadinejad, and chavez all in the same year.
Israel is still fighting their Indian wars. The "Indians" sometimes make treaties, sometimes go on the warpath. It doesn't matter. The Israeli victory and the destruction of the Palestinians is inevitable. Whenever the Palestinians "behave," Israel will squeeze them a bit more to incite a violent response, which in turn gives Israel a plausible justification to retaliate and bring the Palestinian existence down a notch.
Having said that, Hamas is the perfect collaborator willing to play along with Israeli schemes. If Israel should kill a dozen ordinary Palestinians, Hamas would hold the fire, but if a Hamas commander is killed, it's war even if that will mean the deaths of numerous Palestinian babies. Also, Hamas can't justify their taxing the poor population without a war with Israel every few years.
In a word, the current conflict is perfectly suited for both Hamas and the Netanyahu government. Nobody will dare question the Hamas dictatorship and the Israeli public might be fooled into voting for the coalition again.
Guilt by association has never been very clear cut.
I promise you that the children and the unborn babies in the womb of the pregnant woman that was killed by indiscriminate missile launches against Palestinian homes had no part in threatening Jews, or support people that did. You don't fix an atrocity by committing a bigger one. The Jews are destroying their credibility in the eyes of the world. They need to take the moral highground not the lowest common denominator.
"the israelis are the ONLY ones in that entire region that have any similarity to our western ways of thought and our world views."
Did you guess why this is? They don't belong there. The modern Israel was made by western people coming mostly from european countries.
Zionism is a political movement, never ever forget that. If you are Jew, read Neturei Karta (USA) to learn why Zionism goes against your own beliefs.
Also, they didn't come peacefully, they took the land by force. You can't expect the invaded to receive them cheerfully, especially after pushing the survivors into ghettos and forced exile.
The "IDF" is using banned chemical weapons against the civil population (eg. white phosphor) and military grade arsenal against civilians mostly armed with rocks and sticks.
The Americans killed Hussein and Gaddafi accusing them of the same crimes, yet nothing is done against those who lead Israel and commit all the atrocities they want.
What Hamas does is nothing more than a lonely yell of desperation against the invincible monster stomping over them, while everyone else is looking the other way.
The only sad thing here is that nothing is ever done to stop this wanton genocide of Palestinians.
As for the (true) left, they don't believe in borders but in the working exploited uniting against capitalist exploiters, to seize power and establish the government of the people, with everyone working as equals for the common benefit. The left will support class struggle only in this context, not "national" or religious, and genocides against civilians is out of the question.
Artix
Your Linux, your init.
indiscriminate? you can see reams of target video on the IDFSpokesperson youtube channel showing precision strikes against weapon caches and missile emplacements. HAMAS are the ones placing their neighbours in the line of fire, and it's the PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES who invited them to do it. You are right that Jews must take the moral high ground (like you said, they taught morality to the world) which is exactly why they HAVE been doing. 2006: Ethiopia invades Somalia 2008: Russia invades Georgia 2011: Kenya invades Somalia Where were the liberals? They were mum. 2012: Israel dismantles Hamas murder industry? Liberals cry havok. As for Jewish credibility in the eyes of the gentiles? Take your pick of over 75 pogroms, expulsions, and massacres since 1C.E. The Jews owe the gentiles precisely dick as regards credibility. Just the opposite.
could it be?
They all worship the same god.. but insist on fighting a holy war. And when its all over, he will make sure Hamas and the IDF get to share the same sulphurous pit in hell.
This perpetual motion machine Lisa made is a joke, it just keeps getting faster and faster. - Homer
I have a magic western passport and GPO card, it enables me to pass through Erez into Israel more-or-less at will. People in the West Bank can move a little, and even go abroad, but people born in Gaza - on the whole - don't have the ability to leave. 99.999% of them are born, live, and die in an area 1/10th the size of Rhode Island, but 150% the population. They have to grow their food, power their houses, teach their kids, and bury their dead in that slab of land.
Serious question here, not intentionally related to the topic at hand.
99.999% are born, live and die etc suggests that this is all because of Israel and the fact that people Palestinians can't travel freely into Israel proper. But when I look at a map, I see that the Gaza strip shares a border with Egypt. Why is Egypt not considered a bad actor here if free movement is the basis of discussion, too? Does Egypt not consider Palestinians acceptable for immigration?
F.U. Anonymous. You were once relevant and cool but now are no different the the sites you attack. Your "as the wind changes" political views help no one and have hurt many. Can't waits for the MOSSAD to strike revenge on you (and they will).
The militancy of Gazan politics is the direct result of Israeli aggression and illegal siege. This is by design of Israel's cynical policy - where defense by the victim is spun as ideological-driven attacks, fueled by an incompatible world view.
I'll never convince a Hasbara apparatchik, like yourself. But for those who might want to put the violence in context?
Facts:
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/8F184E577967FC7285257AB40057A012
Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA)
PROTECTION OF CIVILIANS WEEKLY REPORT
31 OCTOBER - 6 NOVEMBER 2012 - Gaza Strip
Palestinian casualties by Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip:
Killed this week: 1
Killed in 2012: 71
Killed in 2011: 108
Injured this week: 1
Injured in 2012: 291
Injured in 2011: 468
Israeli casualties by Palestinian fire from Gaza
Injured this week: 3
Injured in 2012: 19
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Too bad they are on the wrong side this time. Israel needs to deal with the Palastinians in some final way. They have been picking a fight that can not be won since Israel has existed and Israel has been holding back. This has only lead to more innocents being killed by the evil palastinians.
A christmas present to Israel, you say? Hmm...
WOW! Anonymous took down some web sites.
That's pretty darned radical.
Especially one for a cleaning service!!!
OMG!
They should rename themselves to Anonymess.
Unfortunately, there aren't any "good guys" over there.
is a load of crap.
If you believe in some wacko imaginary sky-friend and denounce someone else's wacko imaginary sky-friend, you are not a good guy. If you support a government that thinks it is a good idea to have laws based on a belief in a wacko imaginary sky-friend, you are not a good guy. If either of these is even slightly doesn't apply, I cannot imagine a reason to stay.
There's plenty of people trying to live nice normal lives in Israel, and live in fear of Hamas rockets landing on them every day. It's a terrible situation to be in.
wait a sec.
trying to live normal lives
live in fear of rockets
deciding to stay there anyway
Nope. That doesn't add up. One of those 3 statements is clearly false.
On the other side of the fence (literally), there's plenty of people trying to live nice normal lives in Gaza, and live in fear of Israeli warplanes bombing them. Several of them spy for Israel, that's how the IDF manage to get so many targets. If they're caught, they're killed.
Spying = not trying to live a normal life.
caught spying for a foreign government = death is pretty much deserved
If the USA was being attacked with rockets from Cuba, and finally, after 700 of them you decide "enough is enough" and you attack the leader of the group, and you bomb the missile sites, after dropping 1.5 milion leaflets to tell people to move away from the rocket sites, what do you do. You do what Israel has done.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
This piece originally started with the following question I was presented by a friend a while back -
"Explain the conflict to me".
Knowing me for the verbal guy that I am, he challenged me further - "... in 60 seconds or less".
This is not the 60 second version, but it is nevertheless an undeservedly short one. I will make some generalizations of which I am aware, and for which I apologize in advance. I have avoided making the ones I know are dead-pan wrong.
I will try to give a birds-eye view of the problem, provoke interest and curiosity. I subtly recommend not to buy into any view that makes it sound either too simple, too easy, too biased or too black&white.
Here goes:
1. How many sides are there to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
Two. But it's a team sport and each side has several team members.
2. Israelis and Palestinians?
No.
They are the two peoples involved.
They are not, however, the two sides of the conflict.
Here are the real sides of this conflict, a subtlety your favourite news channel will not make clear:
Side 1: Normal people who wish to live a normal, dignified life - have a family, a dog, education for themselves and their kids, career opportunity, and more recently, access to the globalization party.
Side 2: Radicals, who would sacrifice all that for the belief in their gut.
3. And the Palestinians are in...?
Both.
4. And the Israelis are in...?
Both.
5. So the war is between...?
Those two sides. The radicals and the normal people.
6. Who do you define as radical?
I define radically-motivated people as people who
a. Justify violence today with their "historic rights".
b. Do not propose real, holistic solutions to the full, combined set of problems.
c. Ignore the right to exist or the need for human dignity of the other people.
d. Set technically impossible "win conditions" (a-la "pack up the skyscrapers in Tel Aviv and send the Jews back to Europe" or "pack the Palestinians onto trucks and transfer them to some Arab country")
e. Lump other people's entire political spectrum into one big "them", then accuse the lot of wrongdoing perpetrated by just a slice of that spectrum. ("All Muslims are Terrorists!", "All the Jews/Israelis are imperialist bullies!").
f. Would put their own children in the way of physical harm to make a political point.
7. So... which of them are right? (historical right over the land, that sort of thing)
Both are.
Both Israelis and Palestinians have an argument to back what they believe to be a legitimate claim, and firmly believe in the validity of their argument.
Both peoples lived on this land at some point in the past.
Weighing their arguments against one another is a dead end that has burned millions (possibly billions) of man-hours of argument and debate, only to leave everyone exactly where they started.
My empiric observation is that each one of us needs to make a choice.
One can choose to walk down the road of immersion in historic rights, get a lot of warm fuzzies, but do it knowing he will contribute absolutely zero to improving the situation.
Or one can detach from that debate without either losing or winning it, and focus on solving the problems of the present, for the sake of the future of those who live there.
Everyone is right.
8. Then who is wrong? Who is doing the really bad immoral things I see on the news?
Both peoples are.
Some of the bad things both peoples do can be morally justified given their situation.
Some of the bad things both peoples do cannot.
It's not clear-cut.
In every situation claimed immoral, you need to understand what happened from the perspective of both sides, think what you would do have you yourself been born and raised to that side and placed in the shoes of those there, then make up your own mind if the action in question can or cannot be justified.
Remember:
Some of the bad things both peoples do can be morally jus
-
So, you're ignoring the hundreds of IDF attacks into Gaza that preceded the rocket attacks. You're far from the only one to ignore those atrocities and pretend the current round of events started with Hamas firing gunpowder rockets with no guidance systems.
Because they are the villain. They are literally forcing Palestinians to live under Apartheid. Top Israeli officials are openly talking about wanting "level" Gaza and bomb it back to the "middle ages". They just boasted about building an additional 1200 settlements on land stolen from Palestinians.
Which, by the way, consists of all of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem.
Detonate a hydrogen bomb over Jerusalem. Let them all fight it out over the crater of molten glass.
AC
FFS Israel should be bombarded by NATO ASAP !
Recipes for USA bankrupt - http://tinypaste.com/0d66f dd = dollar deluge (printed in the infinity)
On Thursday, Anonymous reported that it took down close to 300 sites of diplomatic representatives from neighboring galaxies, although the single website that they presented as having been attacked belonged to the famous Roger Wilco Janitorial services company. The report came after Zork Boga Bulubulu of planet Zerga 5 announced earlier in the week that his website had been taken down by a group calling itself TeaM L33t HyPn0 H4ck3rZ. Bulubulu's website had been hosting an online petition to stop alien abductions, and to impose a ban on anal probing.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... time... to... die...
But for Zionism there would be no Arab/Israeli conflict
All those in favor of Israel, to you I say: what a fucking bunch of losers you are. Fucking morons, one by one. You have no knowledge whatsoever of the brutalisation and massmurder Israel stands for.
I wish you all dead.
Bye.