Valve's Big Picture Could Be a Linux Game Console

Penurious Penguin writes that "a hopeful article at The Verge persuasively suggests that through Valve, Linux could soon become a formidable contender in the gaming arena, capable of holding its own against such giants as Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and the Wii. With 50 million users, a growing Linux team, a caboodle of interesting experiments ('Steam Box' hardware baselines, etc.) and a strong conviction that more-open platforms are the way, Valve may actually see it through."

Comments

Hmmm

[systemidx]

"The Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and Nintendo Wii are nearing their end. As powerful as they have been in the living room, gamers want more."

Quoted from TFA. Am I the only one who wants LESS? I don't really want my game system to do 9 million things. I just want it to play games.

Then again, when was the last time we were actually listened to? Draconian DRM, the removal of OtherOS, etc...

Re:Hmmm

[Baloroth]

Well, then, the Ouya is probably the kind of thing you are looking for. Straight-up gaming platform with standard controller. I'm sure it'll have video streaming apps and everything else as well (given it is OSS Android based), but it is really just a basic gaming system.

Re:Hmmm

[CastrTroy]

I want it to do more, but I don't want it to be running Linux, or Android, or any other mainstream OS. Sure it means that I may get more apps, as developers are more familiar with it, but these general purpose operating systems just seem to slow things down in the end. My console just needs to play games, allow me to watch videos, and surge the web. That's it. It doesn't need multitasking. Whatever program is running should have full reign over the console so that it can take full advantage of the hardware. My Android phone is good, but it does these annoying things. If a text message comes in while playing a game, the game will come to a screeching halt for 10 seconds just so my phone can make a ding sound. Sometimes games will play slow, for no apparent reason whatsoever, even if I've recently restarted the phone. Sometimes it will just fail to connect to the network. It will say it's connected, but no data will get through. I want my console to just work, and to be able to do exactly one thing at a time, and do that one thing well.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who wants LESS? I don't really want my game system to do 9 million things. I just want it to play games.

No, but you're in the smallest minority. The majority doesn't really care ("Netflix? That's cool, I guess."), and a slightly larger majority actually thinks not-quite-omniboxes are a good idea.

I don't get it myself. If I wanted a full-blown 'entertainment center', I'd use a PC. Much better at handling that job - games from the 80s to just-released-yesterday, Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, CrunchyRoll and pretty much any streaming service, ability to easily play any video format from local sources, sane web browsing, far better support for playing music with cool functionality (Milkdrop!), and easily upgradable.

Plus I can run Office. Nothing clears out a party that's gone on too long quite like opening up Excel and doing some accounting.

Re:Hmmm

[DewDude]

Don't forget; the Sega Dreamcast ran WindowsCE; and performed very well IMO. So, maybe the problem isn't the general purpose OS itself; but the fact it hasn't had any optimizations made to it. If you're that devoted to making an excellent Linux based platform; surely you'd be thinking about how to make the OS as unobtrusive as possible to performance. Linux powers most of the touchscreen bartop Megatouch branded video games. If you've ever seen a Fast and the Furious arcade game; it's some version of Windows (2000 or XP, I can't remember). I say if anyone had the ability to make a successful "home game console"; Valve would be the ones to do it, and do it well.

Re:Hmmm

[Hsien-Ko]

8gb of flash can't hold TF2.

Re:Hmmm

[davydagger]

"I want it to do more, but I don't want it to be running Linux, or Android, or any other mainstream OS"

you won't notice the linux, any more than you notice the windows in the xbox, except it recycles already compiled game code meant for linux.

linux is just a kernel. boot straight to whatever minimal controller based GUI you have, with a few auto-run runs for disk insertion, to run whatever game you insert.

That would be pretty trivial to write/configure with a mainstream linux setup. XBMC does this pretty nicely as a media player. Its just a UI that can run instead of a desktop.

just have init call it from boot, with a nice splash screen and you'd never knew it ran linux.

that said, you need a powerful multicore capable OS to run most major games today. It'd make the game desigeners lives easy if they were common libraries and a common OS underneath.

Re:Hmmm

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

"The Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and Nintendo Wii are nearing their end. As powerful as they have been in the living room, gamers want more."

Quoted from TFA. Am I the only one who wants LESS? I don't really want my game system to do 9 million things. I just want it to play games.

Then again, when was the last time we were actually listened to? Draconian DRM, the removal of OtherOS, etc...

That could just mean 'more' in the sense of 'more power'(especially coming right after "as powerful as they have been"). All present-gen consoles are starting to get rather long in the tooth at this point. They are fixed targets with a hell of a lot of units in the field, so developers make do; but even the 360 and the PS3 have only half a gig of RAM to speak of, and increasingly antique GPUs.

Now, of course, if you have a device with enough power to run a contemporary game well, and a network connection, you have to explicitly break it to prevent it from being able to do other things as well.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

0.5GB: game code, character models and textures
8.5GB: hats

Easy Robin. I kid because I love.

Re:Hmmm

[MBCook]

That's not entirely true. Windows CE code was available, but developers basically didn't use it much. cnet covered this at the time of launch, and in the end only around 50 games used it (out of over 700 created).

One of the Japanese launch titles, Sega Rally 2, used Windows CE, and it had a very inconsistent framerate. I believe the game was later re-released as a "native" game, which may have been the version released to the US. You can still fine some sites that mention some of the problems.

Re:Hmmm

[SomePgmr]

Last I heard, the Ouya project is already working along with XBMC (who has an Android app).

http://xbmc.org/natethomas/2012/08/07/xbmc-and-ouya-oh-yeah/

Re:Hmmm

[Mal-2]

There's no technical reason it can't handle 32 GB of flash -- it just couldn't do that at the $99 price point. Swapping flash is pretty trivial as user upgrades go, so I don't really see that holding it back. The capacity limit of SDHC being reached might pose an issue, if it's not made to accept SDXC. The hardware is the same, and the firmware can probably be hacked -- just like Rockbox did for the Sansa (mine is quite happy with a 16 GB micro-SDHC card when it was built to handle just a 2 GB micro-SD card), so I doubt THAT will be a significant issue either.

Naturally the Ouya will look to replace some settop-box functions, since even new TVs have a finite number of inputs. That doesn't mean it will be particularly optimized for them, or that it needs to be.

Re:Hmmm

[rtb61]

Android being the magic word missing in the article and what it likely is really all about. Building custom Linux distributions like Android and achieving an open market, where more downstream producers and manufacturers can gain greater control. People might complain about those phones and various other Android devices, that manufacturers release with their own branding layer and marketing identity on top but that really is a major advantage of Linux. Even software distribution companies can get in on the act and create an environment where they are not having to pay extortion to another party in order to do business.

It is all about shaking out those billions from M$ and releasing it to a whole bunch of companies, manufacturers, software producers and net entities in order to improve their bottom line and give them greater control. So for Valve, it's not so much a game console but being able to distribute games across a 'ALL' available platforms, phone, tablet, smartbook, PC and Big Screen Display. For the end user buy one game and use it across all your platforms via Steam or the other game distributors will become very desirable and avoiding a pointless 30% M$ extortion fee for nothing, even after having to pay for their bloody software, will mean more money for actual hardware and software creators.

Re:Hmmm

[2fuf]

I read that as 'more powerful' (as in memory, cpu speed, gpu capacity etc.)...

Re:Hmmm

[Charliemopps]

I think this has been the quiet revolution over the past 10 years or so. The peaking of the graphics card wars, users shelling out $600 for a top of the line card, then still having trouble running newer games... people just got burnt out on it. Consoles running so hot, heating issues were a real problem... and then along comes the WII, social games, browser games... There's still a lot of us, myself included that like an immerse environment... But is it really worth the investment of a used car every couple of years? I think we've collectively decided that it's not.

Re:Hmmm

[OneAhead]

TFA was mostly talking about faster hardware. And there's nothing as good at squeezing the last bit of performance out of the hardware than a recent, presumably customized Linux kernel. Bar running on the bare metal, which no game designer is going to pump developer hours into. Hardware has simply become too complex; I don't know much about console design, but I'm sure all current consoles do run an operating system of some kind. Is the prospect of it being a Linux kernel really that repulsive? If yes, I'd start getting paranoid about all the appliances in my household...

Re:Hmmm

[hairyfeet]

The reason we are seeing more and more crap is simple....money. If given the choice of selling games or selling games AND shows AND music? Well its a no brainer for the company, although to be fair frankly I have a lot of customers that own consoles and the vast majority? Only play games on the things.

As for TFA...how many of us have been saying the SECOND it was first announced that Steam was coming to Linux that the whole reason for it was a Steambox console? Like it or not Linux as a desktop platform has pretty much flatline for quite awhile now, pretty much staying at 1% with almost no growth, but as Google showed with Android you can make a hell of an embedded platform with it and as long as they stick with GPL V2 they can TiVo the hell out of it and thus have the DRM required by the game and media companies to get the content.

So will it work? Possibly, after all if rumors are true the Xbox Next and PS4 are both gonna be X86 AMD APUs so you'd have three systems running X86, I'm sure Valve will come up with a nice dev kit to make porting your game from the PC to the Steambox easy, and of course they have a long relationship with game developers so that's always a plus.

I wouldn't bet the farm on Steam staying on Linux proper for very long though, as we already see the distros starting to balk at the license terms and again like it or not Steam IS DRM which I have a feeling those core devs that work on the vital subsystems and treat the GPL like the ten commandments will probably go out of their way to make sure their updates "accidently" break Steam. Hell the last time I pointed this out I got a dozen posts basically saying "The GPL win win!" like it can magically get all the publishers just open up their games and switch to the honor system with their 100 million dollar triple A titles...yeah right.

More likely Valve will put out one or two releases, the devs will break it and say "Well if you'd simply open up your code and get rid of the DRM that wouldn't happen" and Valve will simply say "Due to lack of popular demand we are ending Steam on the Linux platform, all those that bought games on it can have their games transferred to the PC or Steambox account" and that will be the end of that. The GPL and DRM will never be compatible so Linux just won't be a gaming platform, simple as that.

Re:Hmmm

[Dunbal]

I have a quite-definite-omnibox. It's called a desktop PC. And we have come full circle, except I never left. Nor did I pay for all the steps on that circle.

Re:Hmmm

[msobkow]

Funny.

Nvidia doesn't seem to have much trouble releasing Linux blobs.

Technically, the blob is just another package distribution mechanism that happens to incorporate DRM. All of the APIs that Steam requires are pretty much stable. Nvidia and co. were likely brought on by Valve so they could tweak their drivers and correct any bugs that were discovered, not because there was some magic code inserted into anyone else's software just for Valve.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

A well configured Linux is plenty powerful for gaming. Only install what's needed to get your system going. Replace the general purpose scheduler majority of Linux distros come equipped with (CFS) with something aimed at consumer specs (BFS). Instead of KDE or Gnome in use something lightweight and functional like LXDE, or skip the desktop environments all together and just stick with a window manager like OpenBox. You'd be surprised how much those make a difference, especially the scheduler.

Even if you do opt for a fancier desktop environment, going with the core instead of complete packages makes a huge difference. The non-core packages tend to have a lot of extra crap packed into them that most people will either never use or replace with something less generic anyway.

But then the one factor out of your control as a consumer, but entirely within reach for a big vendor like Valve: driver support. All too often with Linux machines certain hardware (primarily graphics cards and wifi) are underutilized due to mediocre driver support. The encryption on wifi may not be the heaviest thing out there, but it makes a noticeable difference when that encryption is being done on the chipset instead of the CPU, especially for online games. Graphics drivers are a no braining for anyone that wants to play more than flash games (even those can be painfully slow with the pitiful driver support for Linux).

Re:Hmmm

[unixisc]

Valve should consider something like a PC-BSD, NetBSD or a Minix option as well. That way, they won't have to get mauled over the licensing parts of the deals.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

"I want it to do more, but I don't want it to be running Linux, or Android, or any other mainstream OS"

you won't notice the linux, any more than you notice the windows in the xbox, except it recycles already compiled game code meant for linux.

linux is just a kernel. boot straight to whatever minimal controller based GUI you have, with a few auto-run runs for disk insertion, to run whatever game you insert.

That would be pretty trivial to write/configure with a mainstream linux setup. XBMC does this pretty nicely as a media player. Its just a UI that can run instead of a desktop.

just have init call it from boot, with a nice splash screen and you'd never knew it ran linux.

that said, you need a powerful multicore capable OS to run most major games today. It'd make the game desigeners lives easy if they were common libraries and a common OS underneath.

Why would you even need the Linux kernel if you had no hardware diversity to deal with, and very specific requirements?
How many common "Linux as in the OS" libraries actually benefit a game developer?

Linux just doesn't bring a lot to the table for game development guys, I hate to say it, but it's true. If they wanted something sort of hardware agnostic, I could see the kernel being used, but the OS would probably consist of new libraries for sound, input, storage, networking etc. Honestly it wouldn't matter if they went with Linux or any other Free kernel. A game developer isn't going to be interfacing directly with the kernel... they will be using layers of abstraction on top of it, and those layers will probably not share much in common with what is available today on Linux. At least I hope not... I hope Valve is building some sort of DirectX equivalent or polishing up SDL.

You can mod me up down or sideways, but if Valve is just bringing Linux to the table with the same old "homebrew" friendly junk we have today, why would anyone expect new games to show up all of a sudden?

Re:Hmmm

[Microlith]

we already see the distros starting to balk at the license terms

No we aren't. That was a poor Slashdot article, making news of something that is already handled by the non-free repos all the high profile distros have.

like it or not Steam IS DRM which I have a feeling those core devs that work on the vital subsystems and treat the GPL like the ten commandments will probably go out of their way to make sure their updates "accidently" break Steam.

Sorry, but this is bald-faced bullshit. You can't selectively break a single action in an open source project without getting caught real damn fast.

Hey, at least you're consistent in your posts.

Re:Hmmm

[Microlith]

s/action/application/

Re:Hmmm

[q.kontinuum]

Even without hardware diversity you have hardware, for which you need drivers. The drivers need to have an OS as a base. And for Linux for all common use cases there is good recent hardware with up-to-date drivers available. There are good APIs as well, like OpenGL. The problem might be that most PCs have some component in them which is not so well supported. So valves work would be to choose a set of god-enough, well supported low-budget components, to optimize the kernel for this hardware, and to nail down a set of libraries always installed on the system to ensure developers know in advance how their software will perform for their customers.

Sure they could use another kernel, but it has to be available royalty-free to reach the lowest price points, and at least I don't know of any other free kernel supporting a bigger variety of hardware.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

My console just needs to play games, allow me to watch videos, and surge the web. That's it. It doesn't need multitasking.

I suppose you don't use ventrilo or teamspeak, or any of the other nifty things gamers use that requires multitasking? Or are you proposing each and every game should implement these functions? That sounds like a solid, well thought out plan, well worth it's +5 "Insightful"... "What could possibly go wrong?"

Re:Hmmm

[q.kontinuum]

I guess having a strictly specified box as a target platform with a defined purpose helps

• the developers to make most of it.
• customers to see exactly which games will work for them
• creating a device appealing enough for the living room instead of home office
• saving on components not required for that purpose

while not restricting to this purpose helps

• makes it an option to those who only need to do simple office work once in a while (like good enough to substitute for a real PC once in a while)
• to find new use cases
• to increase demand as computer hobbyists can add it to thier 'zoo'

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Even without hardware diversity you have hardware, for which you need drivers. The drivers need to have an OS as a base. And for Linux for all common use cases there is good recent hardware with up-to-date drivers available. There are good APIs as well, like OpenGL. The problem might be that most PCs have some component in them which is not so well supported. So valves work would be to choose a set of god-enough, well supported low-budget components, to optimize the kernel for this hardware, and to nail down a set of libraries always installed on the system to ensure developers know in advance how their software will perform for their customers.

Sure they could use another kernel, but it has to be available royalty-free to reach the lowest price points, and at least I don't know of any other free kernel supporting a bigger variety of hardware.

You guys are wielding Linux in sort of "when your only tool is a hammer, all your problems look like nails" fashion. They only need to and should support a limited set of hardware, that is the WHOLE POINT of defining a "Steam Box". ANY Free kernel would fit the bill, but if they are trying to rush something quick and cheap, ANY free kernel that AMD/NVidia will support is a bigger issue.

There is nothing special in Linux that benefits game developers... I don't know why that is even up for debate. Scheduling and memory management are easy to do when you have a very narrow set of requirements, such as what a video game needs. Out of the box, Linux isn't especially suited for that, it's just a general purpose kernel.

Re:Hmmm

[anomaly256]

I wouldn't claim the current-gen consoles actually really do anything more than run video games. Not in any meaningful way anyway. PS3 used to do more but Sony made sure they got rid of that

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

They might release a GPLed version of Steam (hey, they're not making any money on it anyway), with a non-DRMed subset of their games. There's money to be made that way, judging by the success of GoG.

Re:Hmmm

[dbIII]

Android being the magic word missing in the article and what it likely is really all about

No.
Better performance is possible without that abstraction, and the abstraction is not required if the range of hardware you are going to use is limited.

Re:Hmmm

[Hognoxious]

I could see the kernel being used, but the OS would probably consist of new libraries for sound, input, storage, networking etc.

I'd give a long rebuttal of your points but I don't have time: I'm working on an awesome replacement for those round things under my car.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget; the Sega Dreamcast ran WindowsCE..

My memory may be faulty on this one, but wasn't it only the controllers which ran WinCE 'full-time' and some of the games which were WinCE based?
(ISTR the OS for the Dreamcast booted off the game disk)

Re:Hmmm

[jez9999]

My console just needs to play games, allow me to watch videos, and surge the web. That's it.

I tried to surge the web once... it wasn't pretty.

Re:Hmmm

[BitZtream]

Your console DOES need multitasking. Why should every developer reimplement threads? Theres nothing that stops it from being a single process.

Do you really want developers to be forced to deal with keeping the audio buffers for music full inbetween frames or would you rather actually get something accomplished because they can just fire off a play function that creates a thread to play the music and to deal with sounds without having to update each particular sound bit every frame?

Do you really think its a good idea to have developers doing partial loads per frame so they can stream data in and have open worlds with no load times?

You want an OS that was designed to run real time animation on it. Not a phone that lets developers access game like features.

Android devices are shit because you're doing too much with it, not because it has a multitasking kernel. That and Android's GUI subsystem remains shitty even at v4.1, but thats another discussion entirely and one thats easy to overcome if you have a single process or few process environment. Turn off the radios if text messages bother you. Its not a console, its a fucking phone. Stop being all pissed off because its doing what it was intended to do and you want it to do all those things perfectly at the same time when it simply doesn't have the CPU power. Hell games generally try to exploit full CPU power from the git go anyway, so no shit its going to slow down when background tasks start doing things.

What you perceive as one thing at a time hasn't been one thing at a time since the Atari 2600. Developers aren't going to write code for hardware that makes them do EVERYTHING themselves ... well, some might, but the first thing they'll do is write a little OS to give them sanity and code reuse, then they'll start making the other bits and in the end, if they last long enough to pull it off, they'll have written an OS for it and a game on top of that. And then they won't share that OS with anyone else, meaning every bug they find and squash, every neat innovative way to accomplish something mundane, every cool trick to make the game easier to write ... will only be in their games, and someone else will have to reinvent the wheel .... again ... with a whole new set of bugs and shitty problems.

You're currently modded +5 insightful when your post is pretty much exactly the opposite of such.

Theres no reason a Linux kernel with a few or one processes can not accomplish proper game play. Ubuntu isn't going to cut it, as soon as cron fires off the nightly accounting/cleanup/security check scripts, it'll be hosed. And that will just be an example of using the wrong tool for the job.

Re:Hmmm

[Jeeeb]

I want it to do more, but I don't want it to be running Linux, or Android, or any other mainstream OS. Sure it means that I may get more apps, as developers are more familiar with it, but these general purpose operating systems just seem to slow things down in the end. My console just needs to play games, allow me to watch videos, and surge the web

So in other words the kernel only needs to provide:

• Disk drivers and file-system drivers
• Wireless/Ethernet drivers and a complete network stack
• USB and input device drivers
• Video card drivers and OpenGL-ES
• Sound card drivers
• Support for preemptive multitasking over multi-cores for games that want/need to utilize multiple cores (i.e. most modern games)
• Virtual memory to support copy on write, memory mapped files and to provide protection from buggy games crashing the entire system and potential corrupting disk data
• Power management
• Miscellaneous functions such as executable loading, .etc.

Might as well use Linux by this stage. It would sure beat re-inventing the wheel. Plus it gives you a much greater chance of developers actually supporting your platform. The fact that your Android device slows down when receiving messages while gaming sounds like a problem with the design of Android.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a fucking nincompoop. What benefit (over Linux) do you get with creating your own operating system? You have to pay a team of developers a lot of money even for a relatively small and simple OS. This is why Google does not use their own customs OS on their server fleet, or their phone/tablet system.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahaha. You're a nincompoop.

Everything you say about BSD and GPL licenses is wrong. Do you do it in purpose?

Re:Hmmm

[Rockoon]

This.

No matter how low you consider the risk of 'GPL infection', its strictly a non-zero probability. With BSD they would avoid it completely.. the worst-case liability being simple attribution. Several BSD flavors are also rock solid and stable.

But beyond that, with Linux the latest kernel basically goes whatever direction Linus wants it to go and thats the final word, whereas with BSD Valve could be a part of the team that steers its kernel in a beneficial direction...

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Even without hardware diversity you have hardware, for which you need drivers.

And/or documentation.
In the 80/90's it was common that games didn't go through the OS to access the hardware but instead write to the hardware directly.
Slight performance boost, a bit less portable and not very future proof.

Re:Hmmm

[drinkypoo]

Better performance is possible without that abstraction, and the abstraction is not required if the range of hardware you are going to use is limited.

You can use the NDK to run the high-performance parts of Android apps on the actual kernel. This increases complexity, but that could be abstracted away by a toolkit.

Re:Hmmm

[thetoadwarrior]

Same as me. I want a game system that plays games and that's about it.

Re:Hmmm

[thetoadwarrior]

It's also not going to go anywhere.

Re:Hmmm

[tibit]

I don't quite see, on a dedicated Linux system, how running anything in the kernel will improve things. The code still executes on the same CPU, same caches, etc. If the kernel includes broken drivers that disable interrupts for a long time (like the utter garbage USB device drivers for Raspberry PI), then whether you're in the kernel or outside, low latencies go out the window. As long as you don't include drivers written by people who have no clue, you'll be perfectly fine in the userland. Especially if you're the only process running at that time. I'm prototyping some rather low-end userspace PLC systems, and the userland performance is quite phenomenal if you're the sole process and are only using Ethernet communications (no USB). You can easily run cyclic tasks at 10kHz, and it's rock solid in performance.

[Rant: No USB device driver has to block on anything. Ever. No exceptions. If you think otherwise, you're dumb, and I mean it.]

Re:Hmmm

[rgbatduke]

What operating system the computer (because that's what a game console is, a computer) is running is irrelevant. Everything you are describing is operating system agnostic, or nearly so -- you're just talking about the toplevel interface, the windowing system as it were. Linux can run anything from a TTY-only interface, to a TTY interface with a single graphical application, to a full blown windowing system with a general purpose window manager like gnome or kde. At one point, so could Windows (back when it was still DOS inside). Apple's OS originally could not -- it was graphical all the way down into the kernel, for some bizarre reason -- but probably can now that it is really Unix. I'm guessing Windows can as well, but it is probably a lot harder to get at a TTY-only console in Windows 8...

Your game console absolutely needs a multitasking operating system (and has one). We could go down a list of things it manages "in parallel" via multitasking -- managing network interrupts, handling disk or other media access during game play, coping with the human interface, the datastream coming in from some remote network connection, and the outgoing datastream back to the game server, all the while updating the screen every 60th of a second or so -- but we'd still only list a small fraction of the housekeeping visible when running "top" in a Linux computer running a single graphical task. And then there are modern processors that are almost without exception multicore (core-level coarse grain parallelism is multitasking) not to mention the fact that each core is effectively itself parallelized with multiple ALUs and execution threads that are all managed by multitasking.

What you mean is that you want the top level game interface to not support or run lots of single user applications at once. You want the entire graphical console interface to be devoted to a single task, selected from a relatively short list of single tasks, so that (as you correctly put it) "whatever program is running should have full reign over the console so it can take full advantage of the hardware".

To be honest, I think you are overreacting -- if one plays, e.g. World of Warcraft on a linux box and doesn't start a half dozen things on different desktops right before beginning, that's pretty much what you get already. I realize that you are annoyed with your phone as a game interface -- of course you are, as the phone is a phone first and doesn't stop being a phone while you play the game. It also has a relatively lousy network interface no matter whether it is connecting through 3G or 4G or Wireless -- the latter with iffy reception on heavily shared lines, the latter burning power like crazy. Phones suck as game consoles, no arguments.

Android tablets, OTOH, are much better. They typically do for the most part run just one application at a time on the console and don't necessarily do a lot of background user task execution while they do (the thing you really object to, not multitasking) although one CAN run a user task in the background on an android tablet and degrade game performance if you want to for some reason.

Regular computers, however, -- in my opinion -- are in the end the best gaming platforms out there. The offer you the following benefits:

a) A minimum of two cores, more likely four, with very large CPU caches. The intel 3rd gen i7 is truly awe inspiring in its performance -- it can manage 8 simultaneous contexts so smoothly that I've measured linear performance scaling on floating point intensive code out to 8 tasks even though the processor itself is only four cores. This is the ultimate anodyne for your "multitasking" concerns -- a computer that could be evaluating pi to ten zillion places, checking the prices of your stocks in real time, playing tic-tac-toe with itself out of sheer core boredom, and be running the game you are playing flawlessly with human-perceptually instantaneous response time.

b) Enormous amounts of RAM. Yes, this

Re:Hmmm

[tibit]

You demonstrably have no clue about OS design, or even design of embedded software. The despicable multitasking you claim is so bad, if absent from the OS, will be badly reimplemented by everyone and their mother because the world we live in is full of asynchronous events. Any kernel worth its salt will multitask, even if all the tasks are lightweight run-to-completion tasks. There's no way around it. Interrupt handlers do preemptive multitasking, if you haven't noticed it yet. Even Windows 2 did cooperative multitasking for userland code, and preemptive stuff in the "kernel".

Any sort of a communications or driver stack that's more than a minimalistic proof-of-concept will have to multitask. Multitask as in interrupt handlers doing the minimum necessary amount of work so as not to unduly impact the overall interrupt latency of the system. Then normally scheduled bottom half tasklets finish up the work. You need this for USB, for networking, for really anything you can think of. Without solid scheduling and task preemption, you're doomed. Implementing most communication protocols becomes rather easy once you have interrupts, tasklets and timers.

As for those "annoying things" you claim your Android phone does, they happen precisely because things are *not* properly coded for asynchronous execution. Things get slow, almost universally, when something somewhere blocks, or worse, busy-waits (spins). It's rather unfortunate that neither C nor C++ really facilitates writing well performing software that's able to react to asynchronous events. Writing state machines explicitly with each state being a function/method or even a select case is a pain. You'd think it'd be a well solved problem by now, but it's not, and developers being what they are, you see plenty of applications that present you with busy cursors with no CPU nor I/O load to back it up. That's blocking behavior, and it's there because it's somewhat hard to write code otherwise. Every example code out there for receiving data from any device (serial port, network, etc). is fundamentally wrong and contributes to the problem:

      send("foo");
      read(buf);
      if (buf == "bar") { ... };

For your console to do your "one thing at a time" well, it must do a hundred things in parallel behind the scenes. It's your lack of appreciation of this simple fact that makes your post an uninformed rant.

Re:Hmmm

[drinkypoo]

As long as you don't include drivers written by people who have no clue, you'll be perfectly fine in the userland

Presumably if you're making a game console you have control over the hardware. In the Xbox the only thing that didn't remain constant was the TV encoder chip, and it was built with OTS parts except for a customized GPU.

[Rant: No USB device driver has to block on anything. Ever. No exceptions. If you think otherwise, you're dumb, and I mean it.]

Ugh, no joke.

Re:Hmmm

[unixisc]

Here is what I've always said. BSDL allows you to take BSDL code, combine it w/ anything and release the combination under any license. GPL doesn't. The moment you combine non-GPL code w/ GPL, one of two things has to happen:

1. 1. The GPL parts have to be released under GPL, while the non-GPL parts can be released under whatever license they are allowed to be released in
2. 2. The combination has to be released under GPL

3. While members of the world's software liberation armies may well love that aspect of the GPL, it's that aspect of it that gets software developers who don't want to impose copyleft on their users in trouble. In this case, like I argued, had Valve gone w/ a BSDL OS like one of the ones I mentioned, as opposed to Linux, they would have not had to worry about all these licensing complications.

Re:Hmmm

[Karzz1]

You sir, are either a troll or an idiot. I leave that determination as an exercise for the reader.

What other free kernels would fit the requirements? BSD? What is the advantage of BSD over Linux? FreeDOS? Good luck locking that down in any way meaningful. When every user is root, nothing is sacred. Not to mention good luck with recent NVIDIA/AMD drivers... Oh wait.. you meant HERD? Seriously?

What issues do you see with scheduling and memory management in the Linux kernel that is so bad? How is that solved with any of the other free kernels?

As far as only supporting a limited set of hardware, of course they are going to compile a very limited set of drivers.

ANY Free kernel would fit the bill, but if they are trying to rush something quick and cheap, ANY free kernel that AMD/NVidia will support is a bigger issue.

Do you suggest that porting/building drivers is a trivial task? If you want current hardware support you pretty much need either Windows, Max OSX or BSD (in a limited sense) if you don't want to use Linux.

I believe that what makes Linux advantageous from Steam's perspective is not what is in it, but what is not in it. It has the advantage of being quite mature without the overhead (licensing/restrictions) of proprietary systems. Also, if you want to promote desktop usage in addition to a dedicated box while not having to double your development/testing investment *and* you want to be free of proprietary systems, what other options do you realistically have?

If this were up to you, what kernel would you use? Why?

Re:Hmmm

[strikethree]

"The Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and Nintendo Wii are nearing their end. As powerful as they have been in the living room, gamers want more."

Quoted from TFA. Am I the only one who wants LESS? I don't really want my game system to do 9 million things. I just want it to play games.

I read that quote differently than you did but I am likely the one who is misinterpreting. "Gamers want more" in this context meant to me more powerful hardware, more interesting graphics, and more interesting game play... not more functions, ads, social stuff, etc. *shrug*

I completely agree with you. I took a look at my son's Xbox 360 recently and I was almost sent into spasms of revulsion by the "front page" or whatever you call the initial screen. It was so busy with stuff. Absolutely terrible. I guess it makes money?

Re:Hmmm

[strikethree]

I don't quite see, on a dedicated Linux system, how running anything in the kernel will improve things.

Context switches are horribly expensive. It is why Linux and the NT kernel are monolithic designs and micro-kernels have not really become mainstream.

I am unsure why a kernel has to run on all cores: Why not have the kernel reserve a core for itself and send off processes to other cores... possibly reserving an entire core for a single threaded process that requires maximum performance? Writing kernels is so painful. *sigh*

Re:Hmmm

[Hatta]

It's not a circle, it's a spiral. A downward spiral. Todays consoles are as complex as desktop PCs, with all the downsides that brings. But they're not open like desktop PCs, so they don't get any of the benefits that brings.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that there are tons of alternatives to all of those libraries, and even entirely different kernel bits for some of them. Hell, there are 3 or 4 different versions of the C Library that I know of off the top of my head. For the most part though there's no reason to build an entirely new userspace because the developers have really done a great job in making it all work together, with the possible exception of audio which is still a huge fragmented mess. Still, ALSA+Pulse do a decent job of integrating with each other.

Re:Hmmm

[tibit]

Context switches are expensive, but that's not the reason for Linux's or NT's architecture. They do plenty of context switches, these days more switches than just 15 years ago, in fact. Most drivers, these days, do minimum amount of processing in interrupt handlers and leave the rest for the bottom halves. That's often an extra pair of context switches per each interrupt, right there :)

Re:Hmmm

[Pubstar]

Well lets see, there is:
Taito Type X2 Arcade board - Windows XP SP2 Embedded
System N2 Arcade Board - Dibain Linux
Beatmania IIDX (12th style and above) - Windows XP SP2
Sega Lindbergh - Linux
Lindbergh Blue - Windows XP embedded
A lot of arcade machines run some sort of embedded OS with OTS parts. I don't see why they are such an issue.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Should read:

sed s/action/application/.

Re:Hmmm

[BanHammor]

Actually, as they are releasing Steam on Linux too, it's very much possible that they don't want to write any more code to support BSD too. At least Linux has decent driver support and an existing user base - after all, they are a games company, not an OS one.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the reason why android seem less responsive than IOS is because android ui thread does not have the highest priority. Android UI have to compete with other thread whereas IOS does not. This is a legacy design that is comparable to every smartphone os: blackberry, nokia, motorola etc.

Re:Hmmm

[Tubal-Cain]

But they aren't combining GPL and non-GPL. They won't be required to release anything of Steam itself, just any tweaks made to the kernel et al.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is what I've always said. BSDL allows you to take BSDL code, combine it w/ anything and release the combination under any license.

Wrong. Have you even read the BSD license? You have to release the combination under a compatible license.

The moment you combine non-GPL code w/ GPL, one of two things has to happen: [...]

Again, wrong. The combination, if it is a derived work, must have the source code made available, but you cannot relicense a work under a different license if it is not yours.

While members of the world's software liberation armies may well love that aspect of the GPL, it's that aspect of it that gets software developers who don't want to impose copyleft on their users in trouble. In this case, like I argued, had Valve gone w/ a BSDL OS like one of the ones I mentioned, as opposed to Linux, they would have not had to worry about all these licensing complications.

Wrong again. They do not have to worry about "all these licensing complications". Applications are not considered derived works of the kernel.

You are a nincompoop. I rest my case.

Re:Hmmm

[hairyfeet]

2 things make your comparison worthless...1.-Nvidia is ripping a good chunk of the underlying guts out and running their own, which i really don't see valve going to all that trouble for an OS with a 1% share, and 2.- Nvidia isn't specifically doing this TO GET DRM ON A PLATFORM CONTROLLED BY THE GPL and those that treat the GPL like the ten commandments.

So I'm sorry, but comparing a binary blob, which just FYI they have to employ and entire fricking dev team to constantly update because all the guts futzing by Linus and pals break drivers, to an entire software and gaming platform built around DRM, is about as pointless and off topic as they come and what is sad is you were marked insightful for such a horribly bad comparison. You might as well have said "Linux desktops has ZERO issues, why my router has run for a decade with zero updates!" for all the good that comparison is.

Re:Hmmm

[lister king of smeg]

Still, ALSA+Pulse do a decent job of integrating with each other.

sometimes

Re:Hmmm

[davydagger]

"Why would you even need the Linux kernel if you had no hardware diversity to deal with, and very specific requirements"

because its a ready made kernel, that supports lot of hardware, giving the game designers great flexibility. It has great upstream support, so the console makers would have to spent less time developing what we think are trivial, but are insanely complex, and hard

hardware diversity give the console makes greater choice in picking hardware that is best suited for their needs. Again, they don't have to work out the complexities to tuning for maximum performance, or pay/crowd source work thats already been done.

"Linux just doesn't bring a lot to the table for game development guys, I hate to say it, but it's true. If they wanted something sort of hardware agnostic, I could see the kernel being used, but the OS would probably consist of new libraries for sound, input, storage, networking etc. "
Thats probably the dumbest thing I've heard all day. If you don't want Linux, you want some form of Windows, some form of BSD, UNIX or another long standing, well tested stable OS, that has been actively developed for over 20 years.

Operating systems don't happen out of thin air, and any and all operating systems that you might want to use for any reason today, come from a long 20+ year line of refinement and bugtesting.

I also don't know what your smoking, but the drivers for networking, storage, sound, etc... are pretty damn good on modern linux systems.I also want to know if you start using something other than Linux, BSD, windows, or Solaris, who is going to write the video card drivers. Especially when nVidia in anticipation released a new version of their driver that tweaks linux performance, specificly for steam.

Its like asking steam to put in more work they don't have to, when instead all they have to do is make steam UI into a desktop. The reason this is viable, is because all the hardwork of making a powerful OS to run games, on modern hardware, is already done. So is designing hardware components. All the heavy lifting for this is done by someone else, and they don't have to pay for it.

Its what google did with Chrome OS, making a webbrowser into a desktop. I see no reason steam cannot do the same.

"but if Valve is just bringing Linux to the table with the same old "homebrew" friendly junk we have today"
purpose built subsidized "loss leader" console, with standardized hardware. There is a lot of hardware that runs flawless on linux, and it wouldn't be hard for steam to find a good config, get it mass produced and ship it, just like the xbox. It would have that appeal to non-techinical users.

It would also run on linux desktops, with the same user exerpiance

Re:Hmmm

[davydagger]

in steams case, they just spent the time and effort porting to linux.(not insignifigant?)

If they wanted to use another kernel, they'd have to spent more time and effort making another port.

So why bother, when you already have an OS+userland you already plan on developing.

One less codebase to maintain.

Re:Hmmm

[sapphire wyvern]

Can you point me to any good resources (books, web resources, etc) that describe how to do this kind of thing *right*?

I'd love to improve my multi-threaded programming skills, but I'm not really sure where to get started.

Re:Hmmm

[tibit]

There isn't a single resource that I know of. There are very few things you really need to appreciate.

First: every time you read anything from an I/O device, if you haven't been woken up by said device telling you that data is ready, you'll be blocking on the read call, and this makes your thread unresponsive to anything else. Be mindful that some reads are implied. For example, when you memory-map a file, a simple pointer dereference can take tens or hundreds of milliseconds as the hard drive performs a read that's then written to the memory page pointed to by your pointer. This means, unfortunately, that anything that communicates needs to be written explicitly as a state machine of some sort. You can't have simple, linear-flow code where reads are interspersed with processing of stuff. Simple things become, quickly, human unreadable. You'd be well served by at least some ad-hoc tool to rewrite linear code into state machines -- no, it doesn't need to have a full-blown C parser or anywhere near it.

Second: there's little point to having an abundance of threads, your code should be flexible so as to work with any number of worker threads. Such threads should be created on application startup, their number equivalent to the number of cores or hyperthreads available on the machine that you run on. There is a limited number of situations where you can't escape the abundance of threads model. Those are, universally, when you face stupidly written libraries whose code internally blocks. Almost all database APIs are written that way. Now there is a reason why many libraries are done so, and that's because otherwise they'd need to use a higher level framework to abstract away doing event loops on various OSes. Qt provides this functionality, as do various other C/C++ frameworks, as does, in more than one way, the .net platform.

You may want to read Miro Samek's articles on run-to-completion tasks and state machines. Google is your friend.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and Nintendo Wii are nearing their end. As powerful as they have been in the living room, gamers want more."

Quoted from TFA. Am I the only one who wants LESS? I don't really want my game system to do 9 million things. I just want it to play games.

Then again, when was the last time we were actually listened to? Draconian DRM, the removal of OtherOS, etc...

Exactly, otherwise why buy a console at all when you already have a PC running linux to which you can connect easily available controllers and which connects to your high def TV and beats the pants off of any gaming console... I have never been a console gamer and probably never will be. I have owned consles and they make fine dust collectors. I have a PC, I have a tablet, I have a smart phone, all of which are excellent among platforms with great performance and graphics and all of which run linux and have great libraries of games available. WTH am I gonna do with a console?

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Even with that factored out, Android seems less responsive than iOS despite operating typically on quad-core processors with more memory

Should be called "Sauna"

[readandburn]

Waiting to be modded "lame joke" in 3, 2, 1....

Be careful what you wish for...

[Anonymous Coward]

...next up, EAs Origin game console.

Re:Be careful what you wish for...

[Lisias]

Couldn't be worst than a Sony's own video game console... Oh, wait!!

Re:Be careful what you wish for...

[Issarlk]

Please, yes yes yes ! An EA console please! Oh my Dog, it would get all their titles as exclusives, so much easier not to buy from them that way.

Re:Be careful what you wish for...

[Lisias]

...next up, EAs Origin game console.

Couldn't be worst than a Sony's own video game console... Oh, wait!!

Slashdot lost its sense of humour? =P

Irrelevant. perhaps; But TROLL? =P

Valve Fanboi

[pellik]

I became a bit of a valve fanboi when I read about their no-manager system. See Here.
To my credit though, they do seem to be doing cool stuff lately.

Piracy

[girlintraining]

Okay, perfectly serious question, and one the game developers and studios are going to ask you: How are you going to protect against piracy if the platform is open? Explain how if it's made trivially-easy for people to download and pirate the games, how their revenue stream benefits from this... because open platforms encourage piracy. Or at least, that's the argument that's going to be made.

Please guys, serious answers only, not a giant flag of a penguin and patriotic music playing while you explain in great detail why open is better, etc. Pretend I'm a game developer and sell me on the concept. You can start by telling me how it'll be at least as profitable, if not more so, than the competitors. I don't care about linux, or the GPL, or open source: I want a business case made.

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

You are completely missing who is doing this.

Valve's major money maker is Steam, already the largest digital games publisher/marketplace. They already have DRM in place that many people on the PC platform find to be a fair compromise of ability and annoyance. The game developers you want Valve to sell to have already bought into Steam!

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Since an "open platform" is no difference from windows WRT piracy, where Valve has been happily selling games for years, I guess I don't see the point. They will use the same DRM they use on windows... duh?

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Piracy has no problems with closed platforms so far.

Re:Piracy

[MrEricSir]

Valve was asked about DRM at the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit earlier this month. Their answer was essentially "games can include their own DRM" just like on the Windows/Mac versions of Steam.

I could see the let-the-publisher-deal-with-it solution applying to the console as well.

Re:Piracy

[symbolset]

Steam is already on Windows and that can be considered 'open' too, since you are referencing console lockdown. It is not perfect but it seems to be working well enough.

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

I really don-t see the connection from an open system and piracy, they could implement a drm system as invasive as the one you see in windows, and make a variation for secure boot a la android, basically the underlying platform has less to do to piracy than other factors like availability and distribution, something that valve is pretty good at.

Re:Piracy

[CastrTroy]

Yeah, like that's worked out so well for us in the past. Publishers create the worst kinds of DRM. At least when I get and Xbox/Wii/PS game I know it isn't going to install some boot loader or root kit or rogue driver on my system and screw it up. If the security is baked into the console, at least I don't have publishers coming up with their own messed up schemes that end up messing with my system. I know that I can buy a game, take it home, and play it.

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy: same way they do now. Basically you tie everyone's purchases to accounts and only let them decrypt certain assets when they log on and get a new key. Limit the number of devices each user can enable for "offline play" without disabling the old ones. Offline play only works with offline games.

Now people can enable offline play for up to 5 devices, but they'll have to re-connect in order to get new games. Presumably this will limit sharing because who wants to waste their offline enables beyond their own devices? Especially if the person you share with needs to know the password on the account, and both of you logging in at the same time will boot someone!

Next you make yourself the premier online distribution mechanism for video games. And by that I mean be steam, which they obviously have down already. This means that your account is tied to a library of games, and if you "hack" your console to let you play pirated games, you risk your whole library. Since steam is the only way to get updates/patches/expansions for games purchased on steam, you're kind of locked into the "walled garden."

You can even take this one extremely simply step further: only one account enabled per "console." This means that people can't share accounts around or sell them, at least without something like wiping their console. Even more avenues destroyed!

If you're curious about the effectiveness of these measures, then ask yourself why steam is so popular now? They're basically just advertising putting steam on a custom linux box, and if it was secure before it'll likely be secure now. And just like now, Steam products will probably come with extra publisher-specific bullshit for the game devs who are too chickenshit to let their game sell on its own merits at an appropriate pricepoint. I don't think anyone is really worried about Steam's ability to combat piracy, except when they accidentially cancel people's accounts with no reason, but that's the subject of a different comment rant.

Re:Piracy

[Kjella]

Okay, perfectly serious question, and one the game developers and studios are going to ask you: How are you going to protect against piracy if the platform is open? Explain how if it's made trivially-easy for people to download and pirate the games, how their revenue stream benefits from this... because open platforms encourage piracy. Or at least, that's the argument that's going to be made.

Well in case you missed the memo, Steam is pretty successful on open platforms like Windows and OS X. At least "open" as in "doesn't require code signing". Building a "Steambox" would be to lower cost (no MS license) and provide a standardized hardware platform compared to the PC. Compared to the other consoles it'd be an alternative to Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo who all have their terms and conditions to sell on their platform. And the Linux kernel is GPLv2 not GPLv3, so you actually can make a locked down box if you want, you just can't keep the source code a secret. Valve could do to consoles what Google has done to cell phones/tablets with Android, I don't see many Android app developers complaining that it runs Linux down below. Why should game developers be complaining if their console runs Linux down below?

Re:Piracy

[girlintraining]

Steam is already on Windows and that can be considered 'open' too, since you are referencing console lockdown. It is not perfect but it seems to be working well enough.

The market is a lot bigger; The piracy rate is higher, but so is the purchase rate, so it evens out. But consoles are a small market -- almost everyone owns a computer. Not nearly as many own consoles. If the piracy rate on a console was the same as the PC, the market would collapse; it would be very difficult for all but the most successful titles to get a return on investment.

Re:Piracy

[girlintraining]

Why should game developers be complaining if their console runs Linux down below?

Because the console market is a lot smaller than the PC market; Almost everyone owns a computer. Not nearly as many own consoles. Bigger market means more piracy can be tolerated and still make an equivalent amount of profit. And cell phones and tablets compete in a very different market space. That's like saying smart phones compete with laptops and desktops. Yeah... right.

Re:Piracy

[spire3661]

You provide a useful service, thats how. The way you phrased the question itself exposes either your bias or your ignorance. You protect agaisnt piracy by providing a service so good, peopel WANT to give you money. You do it by mutual agreement, not enforcing your position with guns.

Re:Piracy

[symbolset]

If Valve manages to take a significant fraction of their 90% PC game sales market share to an own-brand console from the PC, the PC gamer market might become too small of an ecosystem to remain sustainable. And Valve will become a giant of the console gaming industry.

Re:Piracy

[Kjella]

Because the console market is a lot smaller than the PC market; Almost everyone owns a computer. Not nearly as many own consoles. Bigger market means more piracy can be tolerated and still make an equivalent amount of profit. And cell phones and tablets compete in a very different market space. That's like saying smart phones compete with laptops and desktops. Yeah... right.

Huh? I never said they competed in the same markets, I said developers seem more than happy to be writing applications for Android which runs on Linux without crying about piracy. You're just talking nonsense saying nothing compares to consoles. And of course the PC market is much larger than the console market since lots and lots of people aren't playing games but you're again completely failing to make a sane point of PC gamers vs console gamers. Who cares about consoles and console-only games? The people who develop for Windows and OS X will have near zero porting cost to a "PC-in-drag" Steambox and the piracy should in any case not be worse. Those developers will be totally indifferent to whether it's a Windows or OS X or Steambox sale and that's plenty, whatever xbox/PS3 developers do is at best a bonus.

Re:Piracy

[Ironhandx]

they can't shoot the goose that laid the golden egg. A lot of the reason PC gaming is seeing a resurgence is actually tablets. Most people don't LIKE working on laptops and have desks for them anyways. For the same price as a laptop you can go buy a gaming PC generally and bam, you're now a PC gamer. Whats happening is tablets are eating the convenience of notebooks alive and more and more people are turning to desktop PCs for gaming and work.

Re:Piracy

[RR]

Yeah, like that's worked out so well for us in the past. Publishers create the worst kinds of DRM. At least when I get and Xbox/Wii/PS game... I know that I can buy a game, take it home, and play it.

You mean, you can buy a game, bring it home, and then leave the console alone for half an hour as it installs updates. Or is that just the PS3?

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

I have on good authority that patching and compiling the kernel is too hard for the average Joe (It's practically the one of the staple points of the last 20 years of trolling against Linux). Build your DRM with kernel calls and you get the same thing that DRM does on Windows: makes it too hard for average Joe. Yes I know that downloading and running some crack for Windows software is relatively easy. Average Joe still finds it too hard or too risky.

I know that the industry likes to make out like piracy is actually a big problem but mostly it's just the torrent nerds using it for penis compensation.

Re:Piracy

[OneAhead]

It's not like they'd have to rewrite their game from scratch - given a good initial choice of libraries/APIs and a modular software architecture, the investment of porting a Windows game to Linux is not that terrible. Especially relative to the amount of money that goes into into art and level design (none of which requires any porting) in big commercial games. So a tentative business model would be: release the game on Windows through Steam, then make a Linux port for extra revenue. Initially, this second revenue stream will be a lot smaller than the Windows version's, but again, so is the additional investment. And it has potential for growth; the steam box could potentially beat other consoles in hardware specs, making the same game look nicer, and allowing for more complex games to be run on it. It could be a stepping stone for console gamers to get into hardcore PC games. Valve doesn't even necessarily have to produce and sell the steamboxen themseves; they could just offer steam for Linux as an option to whichever intrepid company feels compelled to throw together some PC hardware and a minimalist Debian-based Linux distro and sell it as a console. The resulting competition could result in very attractive price/performance for the consumer - think the game console version of the Android ecosystem. In summary, there is a baseline potential for a modest second revenue stream with a fair return on investment, and lots of exciting possibilities for growth. How do you like my sales pitch?

One more thing: Valve expressed its extreme displeasure with Windows 8's "walled garden" model. They could offer PC gamers to run steam from a bootable Linux flash drive, or better, do something like Portable Ubuntu but with better graphics support. I personally think the chances are pretty slim Valve will go that far, but it's not 100% impossible, and it would make Linux ports even more attractive to game publishers.

Re:Piracy

[symbolset]

Look, Microsoft is pushing all software through their own store if they can beginning with Windows 8. Steam is a software store that would compete with that store, on Microsoft's Windows platform. Gabe Newell used to work at Microsoft. He knows this means they intend to eliminate the Steam software sales store in Windows, and they are as eminently able to do that as they have been to sabotage all other software that competes with their offerings on Windows. The Goose has fled and Valve needs a new goose. Hence the console plan. An own-brand console gives Valve a platform that cannot be made to sabotage their content.

A lot of casuals are just going tablet and phone, really.

It could be worse. Retail box software vendors are just out of luck. No more sales for you.

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Basically you tie everyone's purchases to accounts and only let them decrypt certain assets when they log on and get a new key.

In other words, shitty DRM that won't stop anything. Great.

How about we just stop being so paranoid about piracy and adopt a working business model that doesn't involve restrictive bullshit?

Re:Piracy

[bloodhawk]

I game on my PC as I like the power and flexibility I can achieve where I can upgrade at will and not be limited. If I wanted a console gaming experience I would buy a console and to be honest it would be a ps or an xbox not a steambox, I certainly won't be buying a steam console or any other console as my primary gaming platform and I cannot conceive of anything valve can do can make me desire a console instead of a gaming PC.

Re:Piracy

[symbolset]

As Valve has pointed out their games actually work better on Linux after porting and without significant optimization. Stay with your Windows PC instead of your Valve hand-optimized Linux-based console and you'll find your gaming experience frustrating as you get Pwned by nOObs over and over. But hey, if that's your thing...

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

And you think this is aimed at you?

A steambox would be aimed at the people who want the console experience. They already HAVE your business you asshat.

Fuck people at least try to think here.

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

The PC gaming market isn't much bigger than the console market. It was smaller for a number of years, in fact.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/97705-pc-gaming-vs-consoles-the-infographic

Re:Piracy

[bloodhawk]

No I don't think this is aimed at me and that is the problem. Steam is successful because of its massive audience, that audience is NOT the console gaming audience. The problem they are facing is they expect their PC market to suffer under win8 and the availability of the app store, but what they seem to be doing here is not actually addressing that problem, instead they are trying to win there way into a much smaller and far more competitive market, it smells of desperation or poor forethought.

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference in performance is miniscule between the 2 platforms, many games perform better under windows (because that is where they are optimised), and others under linux. NO one will be getting pwnd by being on Linux or Windows or even a Mac for that matter. however if such a difference does become significant someone definitely will be getting pwned and my guess is that someone will be valve as they go down the gurgler because they will lose their player base.

Re:Piracy

[girlintraining]

They already have DRM in place that many people on the PC platform find to be a fair compromise of ability and annoyance. The game developers you want Valve to sell to have already bought into Steam!

Umm, no. Most of the applications available for Steam were developed as stand-alone applications and only later added into their store. To say they "bought into" Steam is stupid; They bought into the PC platform. Steam is just another method of distribution. We aren't talking about developing games for the PC platform here, but a new console. Whatever is released on this new console may use commodity hardware, and may even be PC-like, but it won't be a PC, and you probably won't be able to just load up PC games under it, anymore than you can play a Mac game on a PC or vice versa. That's sorta the definition of a platform.

Re:Piracy

[blahplusplus]

"How are you going to protect against piracy if the platform is open?"

You cant' get rid of piracy, trying to say that consoles don't have piracy is a lie. Anything will be cracked if it exists. PS3 is cracked, 360 is cracked, Wii is cracked long time ago. All of the major consoles have piracy. If gabe understands one thing he knows that piracy isn't the problem, game prices and poor games are the real culprit of bad/low sales. Minecraft and Magicka, two indie games that sold gangbusters, Magicka was projected to sell 30K copies, went on to sell over a million + DLC's. And Magicka was a PC only game. You could say the same thing about dungeon defenders as well, another PC only game.

The reality is that game developers have a game quality control problem and rehash problem but they don't want to admit it.

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, like that's worked out so well for us in the past. Publishers create the worst kinds of DRM. At least when I get and Xbox/Wii/PS game... I know that I can buy a game, take it home, and play it.

You mean, you can buy a game, bring it home, and then leave the console alone for half an hour as it installs updates. Or is that just the PS3?

Right, launch day patches only happen for one platform. Moron.

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

NO one will be getting pwnd by being on Linux or Windows or even a Mac

You won't get pwnd because you're on a mac. You'll get pwnd because you're a faggot.

Re:Piracy

[Hognoxious]

Because the console market is a lot smaller than the PC market

Smaller != nonexistent.

Re:Piracy

[demoncleaner925]

The market is a lot bigger; The piracy rate is higher, but so is the purchase rate, so it evens out. But consoles are a small market -- almost everyone owns a computer. Not nearly as many own consoles. If the piracy rate on a console was the same as the PC, the market would collapse; it would be very difficult for all but the most successful titles to get a return on investment.

care to quote any actual evidence or will we just consider all of our "expert" opinions to be evidence going forward?

Re:Piracy

[PixetaledPikachu]

We aren't talking about developing games for the PC platform here, but a new console. Whatever is released on this new console may use commodity hardware, and may even be PC-like, but it won't be a PC, and you probably won't be able to just load up PC games under it, anymore than you can play a Mac game on a PC or vice versa. That's sorta the definition of a platform.

The point is, developers/distributors AND the customers seems quite happy with the DRM system currently being employed by Steam, and I think the same system may also be used on Steam on linux or whatever the new platform is, so DRM or openness should not be a problem.

Re:Piracy

[BitZtream]

Steam provides the DRM, they can choose to use it or not. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Re:Piracy

[BitZtream]

and if you "hack" your console to let you play pirated games, you risk your whole library.

Not really. Taking games you bought away from you is theft. It doesn't matter if I steal your car, that doesn't make it legal for you to steal my car.

Re:Piracy

[BitZtream]

At least "open" as in "doesn't require code signing".

Are you serious? Value encrypts and hashes the data sent to you for steam to allow it to be run. Its actually far more complicated than code signing. The process to sell your games on steam is pretty much identical to Apple, you just don't realize it.

Code signing IS A GOOD THING. It ensures the code you have is the code they wrote. It means, when done properly, no virus is going to fuck you over, if it modifies the code it WILL be detected, period.

The only people who see this as 'a bad thing' are people who think its a good thing to modify code for their own purposes. While there are some people that want to do this for legal reasons (hacking around and modding for your own fun and enjoyment, possibly sharing with others in an ethical/moral way), there are far more that want to do it for not only illegal reasons (basic piracy) but truely bad reasons (backdoors, rootkit payloads, viruses in general).

Re:Piracy

[BitZtream]

Because the console market is a lot smaller than the PC market;

So? Owning a PC doesn't mean you game on it.

Almost everyone owns a computer. Not nearly as many own consoles.

Outside of geekdom, more people play games on consoles than on PCs in my limited experience with non-geeks. Most people like that they can slap a disk in and it works. No checking specs, no updating video drivers or registering on some site because every game thinks it needs to have you login to something before you can play (console already does that dirty deed in a one stop kind of way)

If you can show me that more people play GTA V or Assassin's Creed on a PC than on consoles, I will be utterly shocked. I just don't buy it.

Re:Piracy

[Ironhandx]

I didn't say anything at all about Windows, I was referring to PCs in general. Even if they launch their console I expect they'll at the very least keep steam going on linux, even if it is only their own distro that they officially support.

Basically what I'm seeing is anyone thats got a real interest in gaming is getting a gaming PC at this point. Most of them get hooked on the mouse/keyboard control scheme after a short while too.

Laptop and PC sales are tanking but part of that has to do with everyone has a desktop or a laptop at this point that has some sort of office software on it etc and unless that actually breaks they don't replace it. The market is slowly settling into gamers and non-gamers. Gamers buy a desktop because they can game on it and its the same price as a laptop they can't game with, another set of people buy desktops that can play games to save some money on consoles for thier kids or just because their kids want to play PC games. These people are true casuals. The rest of the true casuals have gone over to laptops + tablets + phones because they don't want to take up that much space in their homes.

Then theres another growing set of people who I call professionals. They have a desk at home for work anyways and the space is already there for gaming. Why not use it? There are a lot of this segment getting interested in Eve Online and games like it. Their income generally isn't a factor in having both a gaming PC and a laptop and they'll often start gaming a bit on the laptop then switch to a desktop because "Hey, the fucking desk isn't going anywhere anyways."

Re:Piracy

[Hatta]

At least when I get and Xbox/Wii/PS game I know it isn't going to install some boot loader or root kit or rogue driver on my system and screw it up

Are you kidding? Modern games come with software updates on the disk, software updates that can and do remove features from your console.

Re:Piracy

[Fr33z0r]

Explain how if it's made trivially-easy for people to download and pirate the games, how their revenue stream benefits from this...

It's trivially easy for people to download and pirate games on Windows now.

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

First party Wii games do the same thing

Re:Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Valve is porting Source and all of their middleware to linux. Epic already has Unreal ported to Unix. Crytec is getting their engine ported as well. If a game has been ported to the PS3 and Wii/WiiU, porting to unix is not much of a stretch.

Just the Source and Unreal stuff would be more then enough to have a good game selection. Once the Crytec and multiplatform stuff is added, the only stuff you would be missing is the Microsoft first party stuff (which tends to be saddled with a bunch of games for windows crap)

Good for them!

[Nyder]

I was thinking the other day that the original Xbox was based off of PC tech, so the programmers had familiar ground for making the games (really not much different then windows games), but then they veered away from that with the Xbox 360. So, as i was thinking, I figured if someone had came in with a PC (intel/amd 64bit x86 procs), nvidia/amd GPU, a more then decent amount of memory, that they might have had a decent console during these lean years of outdated consoles.
Of course, the company would have to make it so you can run homebrew on it, ie. PS3 Other OS, but not locked down as much. Let peeps have access to the hardware.

Yes, software would probably get pirated, but software always gets pirated. That isn't going to change, unless they start streaming games to us, like Onlive or something.

Anyways, I hope Steam is smart enough to put in plenty of memory in the console. Since that has always been the problems with other consoles, and I hope they keep the system open enough for homebrew.

Going to be cool to see what happens here.

Re:Good for them!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Unless they start streaming games to us"

Shut the FUCK up, you're drawing attention to the next obvious step for them to take.

The reason they're dragging their feet putting out the next gen of consoles is that they want network infrastructure to develop so that it has the capacity to do exactly this. Hell, when was the last time you didn't have to create an account to play a multiplayer game? Or a single player game...

Re:Good for them!

[luther349]

the 360 is powerpc because the x86 exploite of the original xbox is and still is a weakness of x86 its self. so if they released a x86 360 it would have been cracked wide open on pretty much launch day. going powerpc it took a few years.

Re:Good for them!

[luther349]

onlive is going belly up so that will not be a step they take. lets face it unless your on some super unlimited uncapped fiber line the quality suffers to much for steaming games to work.

Re:Good for them!

[Anonymous Coward]

the 360 is powerpc because the x86 exploite of the original xbox is and still is a weakness of x86 its self

lolwut? Where do you people come from? x86 exploit? Er uh, if thats the case, how's your PC doing these days? The running of signed/unsigned code has nothing to do with the CPU architecture.

Re:Good for them!

[Anonymous Coward]

The future solution will be streaming content in the background, but doing the actual rendering on the local machine instead of streaming video. Some of the game assets will be cached on your local machine but the actual full game will be in the cloud.

Re:Good for them!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention the latency. Needs to be 10ms rtt max. Input lag sucks. Then there's the electric bill. That alone will be $30/year minimum.

Re:Good for them!

[O('_')O_Bush]

The 360 is PowerPC for the same reasons the Wii is PowerPC and the PS3 is essentially PowerPC, and why it is used on the NASA rovers. For the pricepoint and use (not doing general computing), PowerPC is the most powerful instruction set out there. Far more so than x86-64.

Re:Good for them!

[Osgeld]

being close to a pc hardly has anything to do with anything, its not like these devs are sitting down twiddling bits in asm, they are using .NET with a target selected

An old dream

[CmdrEdem]

For years I dreamed about a Linux distro with all the fat out but the bare minimum to run games, so we can get all the power from the hardware. I really hope this can become real but I`m well aware of the hurdles they will face to get to that.

Re:An old dream

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I misunderstand what you mean with "bare minimum", but there are plenty of distros which are both lightweight (no stupid background services, you decide precisely what to install, etc) and powerful (e.g. latest and greatest drivers, kernel and libs in the standard packages).

My personal favorite when it comes to a distro which has these features and is also easy for newbies to install is ArchLinux. However, if you really want to be able to optimize the entire OS for your computer, Gentoo will always be the best way, though it forces you to actually learn how Linux works while you install it.

Re:An old dream

[QuantumRiff]

I remember the days of very, very slimmed down DOS boot disks to make your games run faster than they did with a bigger OS running on them. I often think of Linux in this context

It's a trap!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just hope that they continue with the Linux PC trend if they do go down the console route. As their management style is pretty open, I'd hope they'd extend the same courtesy with their hardware. I'm sure pressure from the big studios will curb the extent of how open they are, but hey, Microsoft was pretty gracious about the Kinect work being done, so anything's possible...

cablecard support

[nickmalthus]

If it is its own distro maybe valve could get official cablecard support. There are no linux cablecard apps for secure content and microsoft is dumping windows media center. I would love to have a better alternative to renting a five year old dvr for 20 dollars a month.

Re:cablecard support

[wbr1]

There is a better option. Stop paying the cable company. Cut the cord and all that jazz. Vote with your wallet.

Re:cablecard support

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are Americans still cheering for the silly cable card. Drop your TV, use Hulu Plus, Netflix, etc. Consume less TV in general, you'll live better.

Couldn't beat the Wii But Participate

[medv4380]

I don't really see it playing in the same ball park as the Wii U. I hope Nintendo is successful in playing in the larger ball park and thus compete, but they haven't broken out of their very lucrative nitch so I wouldn't even compare it with that. However, if you can get Steam working seamlessly on Linux, and package a box the works like a console it could contend with the PS3 and 360 games. For example, if the Next Dragon Age or Bioware game comes out on Steam and works on the Linux version then I'd put this Linux Steam Box on my Buy list. I've longed for a Console that would allow me the ability to apply mods like the PC counterparts do. It could put a lid on Windows PC Gaming though. But those are all dreams. I know what I'm asking Santa for this year.

Re:Couldn't beat the Wii But Participate

[hobarrera]

Why do you need a Windows box? Most Valve games seem to work fine with wine. At least the one I've tried and the once my friends play.

Please don't Gabe

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Steam is one thing that makes PC gaming so much better than console gaming. If you move the console that may just be it for PC gaming.

Re:Please don't Gabe

[Alex Belits]

Didn't you get the memo? Microsoft is now hell bent on destroying PC as a platform, so consumer PC applications need another class of devices.

Re:Please don't Gabe

[casings]

Agreed, it seems counter-intuitive to allow Microsoft to continue to dominate the PC Gaming OS when they already have vested interest in a completely different platform.

Re:Please don't Gabe

[Barlo_Mung_42]

No, I didn't get the memo. MS is hell bent on bringing tablets under the Windows ecosystem. Maybe that will work out, maybe not. I don't really give a shit. Steam still works just fine on my PC and there's no indication that MS will do anything to keep it from working fine. Gabe is just worried about the MS Store. He shouldn't be; that's of free - $5 app type games. Steam is still where the real games are.

This won't be the year of desktop linux

[hobarrera]

So we may never get a year of desktop linux.
But there's still a chance for a year of the living room linux.

Re:This won't be the year of desktop linux

[Ziggitz]

There isn''t going to be a year of desktop linux. It's going to be decade of desktop linux.

Re:This won't be the year of desktop linux

[rrohbeck]

I think Android is moving nicely in that direction.
Once Google's patches are in mainline it'll be possible to run Android and other distros in parallel.

"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[girlintraining]

How is it trolling to ask a question that any developer who's going to give serious consideration to this platform is going to ask? The console market thrives mostly on store-bought purchases, many of which are recycled into the used-games market a year after their release, but 95% of the games aren't pirated. The PC gaming market, on the other hand, is almost the exact opposite: Most games, especially single-player games, sitting on PCs are pirated. So to get the same profit, you'd have to sell games for this console either at about 20 times the volume or 20 times the profit margin, to make up the difference.

This is math guys. It's business. I'm making no arguments as to technical feasibility of producing such a console, but one of the reasons for the success of the PS3 and one reason so many developed for it was because it had strong DRM: If you wanted to play a game on the PS3, you either had to buy it, or go through convoluted steps or modify the hardware in ways that often left you unable to use that console online for multiplayer games. Every console marketed in the last decade has tried to follow the same business model.

Now you have Valve coming along with a new, untested, business model. The burden of proving feasibility is on them; And I really, truly, and sincerely want to know what their argument is either for limiting piracy on their platform or describing how it won't affect sales or the profitability of games developed for the console. It is not trolling to point out a legitimate concern about an untested and unproven business model in an industry where game development costs many millions and the industry itself is prone to failure. Look at the (very) long list of failed games and gaming companies. Entertainment is a risky business.

So the question has to be answered, solidly, how those risks are mitigated. Not. A. Troll.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could have just not posted, since your post didn't add anything to the conversation at all.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Anonymous Coward]

Steam is what caused me and as far as I can tell all of my friends to start buying games instead of pirating them.
Steam offer something piracy does not, hassle free installing. It also offers something buying games in stores does not, the ability to get the game right now and great deals.

Spotify did the same regarding music.

Will there be piracy, probably. Will it be rampant on the steambox? Probably not, just use your normal computer.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Mashiki]

How is it trolling to ask a question that any developer who's going to give serious consideration to this platform is going to ask?

Because /. has a very strong group think mentality these days as the number of technically minded people on the site has shifted away, leaving it a shell of it's former self. In turn, that leaves the fanboi's and trolls who disagree out for blood modding down anything they disagree with.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[stephanruby]

If you wanted to play a game on the PS3, you either had to buy it, or go through convoluted steps or modify the hardware in ways that often left you unable to use that console online for multiplayer games. Every console marketed in the last decade has tried to follow the same business model.

Doesn't Valve/Steam essentially come with its form of account-based DRM and essentially focuses more on multiplayer games precisely because of this issue you've highlighted? Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't actually have a Steam account.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Mashiki]

Doesn't Valve/Steam essentially come with its form of account-based DRM and essentially focuses more on multiplayer games precisely because of this issue you've highlighted? Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't actually have a Steam account.

The account itself is DRM, albeit a light version of it. Games are tied to your steam account currently, in the EU they're being forced to allow you to trade games I believe. I've heard a few things that there's a case doing the same here in Canada, but I couldn't actually find anything.

But nothing stops you from using multiplayer games at all, and really nothing stops you from modding your PC at all in any such form. Though there are a variety of different services to stop people from cheating such as valve-anticheat, punkbuster and so on for multiplayer and they work not too badly. There are sometimes, some nasty false positives though. Worst case is someone just gets tempbanned from the server, repeat offenders get permabanned.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[ThatsMyNick]

Touche.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Ziggitz]

Steam likely reduces the rate of piracy among PC gamers because it actually offers some really good benefits over piracy and buying in store. When you buy through steam you can always redownload the game, scratched your black ops 2 dvd? Fuck you buy another one. Your rig's harddisk failed? Redownload the game free of charge as many times as you like; I know that any game I buy on steam I will have until the service dies at which point the game will likely be freeware anyway. It offers a lot of stability as well. If I pirate a game on pc then I would have top find a new crack for the executable every time I wanted to play on the latest patch. Steam will automatically update my games for me and I have a reasonable that everything will work if I meet the hardware specs for the game and it was developed in the last 5 years.

Combine the low prices, convenience features, and permanence that physical media doesn't offer, a lot of people prefer to buy games through steam rather than pirate; At least anyone with a reasonable amount of disposable income.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about trolling but it's definitely old hat. The discussion has been had so many times it's not even funny. If you didn't get it the first 9001 times it came up... you're not gonna get it this time around either.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[girlintraining]

Will there be piracy, probably. Will it be rampant on the steambox? Probably not, just use your normal computer.

I'm not suggesting it would be rampant, just higher than on consoles. My point was -- if it's even slightly higher than other consoles, if their sales are the same, that means less profit. And my question was: Can the "steambox" be as profitable for a game developer as traditional DRM-enabled consoles? The factors to consider are development costs, distribution costs, per-unit sales, and aggregate sales. All of these contribute to the total net. My argument is because per-unit sales would be lower (due to piracy), aggregate sales would need to be higher. The question is... how much piracy can we expect on an open platform? If it's comparable to the PC market, whether steam-store or not -- it'll probably earn less in total net sales than developing on a locked-down console.

It's an untested concept -- so the question is, how much piracy can we expect on an open platform?

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[sirsnork]

Since people have been throwing around numbers of $20k just to release an update on XBLA then I would suggest even if there is more piracy, profit is probably going to be greater.

Of course, you're assuming an either/or situation when it's not. If this comes about it will be one more platform developers will need to port too, and if they don't then their profit from the platform is zero, if they do it'll be more than zero (assuming they sell in the first place.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[girlintraining]

Of course, you're assuming an either/or situation when it's not.

Umm, you're the only one making that assumption. I'm making a cost/benefit analysis and comparing it to other platforms. Whether they develop on one console and port it to others is not the question here. Everyone else seems to be making assumptions that the level of piracy won't be a problem, but nobody has provided any hard data to support this position. Let's say your game costs you $1 million to develop, and your per unit sales will be $10. Of that, $1 is spent on distribution, $1 on support, and the other $8 is income. In this theoretical example, you would need to sell 125,000 units to recover your development costs (ie, break even) if the piracy rate is zero. Let's say there are 15 million consoles out there, the average person purchases 5 games, and there are 40 other games on the market. For simplicity's sake, we'll ignore the fact that only the top 5% of games tend to make up the majority of those sales and the rest languish -- we're going to say in our hypothetical market, all games are purchased in equal numbers. That means 1,875,000 of your games will be sold -- well above break even. You're a rich game developer!

A few months ago, the Ubisoft CEO claimed the piracy rate is 93-95% on the PC platform. Now let's revisit our hypothetical market -- out of the 1.8 million people playing your game, only 112,500 have paid for it thanks to piracy. You needed 125,000 sales to break even. Sorry man, you're bankrupt.

Now, this is a highly theoretical model, and real economics are far more complicated than that, but it does demonstrate how piracy can cause development on one platform to succeed brilliantly, and the other to fail miserably. I don't want to argue numbers with anyone, I'm simply pointing out that the piracy rate will be brought up in meetings with gaming studio executives, and could be a determining factor in whether or not a game is released on the platform. Valve's statement that it'll be up to the companies to impliment DRM strongly suggests there will be no hardware-based validation method, which means we're looking at a security system that looks less like the PS3 and more like the PC. And it's been well-established for the past thirty years now that DRM on the PC is quickly broken, and products are readily and easily available with minimal effort and investment of time. The PS3, on the other hand, only very recently had all of its encryption broken, and has been on the market for many years -- which shows that while a locked-down console's security can be defeated (was there any doubt?), it doesn't have to happen quickly, which results in a greatly-reduced piracy rate.

Again, I'm not taking a position on the technical merits of the platform, or any ethical or moral arguments about an open system; I am merely stating that the piracy rate on an open system will almost certainly be higher than for a closed system, and this will be a factor in game developers' decision on whether to release on the platform. Valve's business model here is untested and unproven; In an industry that's already high-risk, they need to make a strong case that releasing for their console will be at least as profitable, if not moreso, than its competitors. Piracy is a question they can't ignore.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[girlintraining]

Because /. has a very strong group think mentality these days as the number of technically minded people on the site has shifted away, leaving it a shell of it's former self. In turn, that leaves the fanboi's and trolls who disagree out for blood modding down anything they disagree with.

Yeah. It looks like slashdot, but it isn't anymore. Malda moved on. It was sold off to the highest bidder that now quietly inserts sponsored links and is trying to monetize the site, and our editors are slowly being rotated out for people that are marketdroids instead of geeks. I mean, look at the logo? See how it no longer says "News for nerds. Stuff that matters." ? Now it's just an ever-shrinking green strip along the top with an ever-increasing number of drop-down menus. Soon they'll start adding "sponsored links" and then in short order it'll become the next "expertsexchange"... a place where blithering idiots who think they're "techie" because they have an iphone and (gasp!) once installed a video card into their store-bought computer.

It's all part of the steady erosion of geek culture, which is rapidly filling up with these fucking hipster posers and their instamatic filters. It's the same thing that happened to the title Hacker. Once upon a time, it was a title of great respect, something earned after years of service to the gods of computational competence. Now it's a term used by the media to mean "terrorist on a computer." And if there's one thing the mainstream hates, it's anyone who is truly competent, intelligent, and has earned their bona fides because it makes the posers look like cheap imitation knock-offs next to them. And let's be honest: They outnumber us by a very large number. We can't hold back the barbarian hordes of trolls, hipsters, and posers for much longer, and there's no other site for us to flee to where they can't follow us.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[dbIII]

who think they're "techie" because they have an iphone and (gasp!) once installed a video card

So?
How many of you people have used a soldering iron? :)

I get what you mean but people tend to call themselves whatever they like. The anti-science cargo cult idiots that like shiny tech but hate science (eg. the "wake me up when there's a product for sale" idiots) and the spelling fanatics really get me down but every now and again you hear from somebody doing something very impressive. For instance the article on the guy getting arrested at an airport for a weird watch resulted in some posts to links for interesting wearable electronic gear and odd steampunk art.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Mashiki]

Cheers. Your rant is perfectly spot on for my feelings on /. these days. If I knew a good place to head, I'd make a suggestion but really there isn't anywhere. Well, I'm sure something will come along eventually. Until then, hunker down carry on and kick some ass when you need to.

Oh and I'm sure it'll get much worse than iphones, after all the hipsters have figured out what an android phone is. And those are now "cool" with them, and a much more desirable status symbol. Watch, you'll start hearing them talk about how open source is awesome, and they know how to sideload apps.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[PsyMan]

LOL, You have made my morning. For some reason though I can't bring myself to delete that RSS feed , I just keep reading, hoping that things will suddenly get better. I am sure the piratebay comment system and /. could well merge soon, both are still entertaining but meaninless.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the shills. Bonch and company aren't here to give insight on technology or ask developer questions.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[GrumblyStuff]

There is one thing about Steam that pisses me off to no end: 3rd party DRM and accounts. The last thing I want or expect from Steam is to have to deal with additional accounts or bullshit installation (I'm looking at you Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet).

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Anonymous Coward]

How is it trolling to ask a question that any developer who's going to give serious consideration to this platform is going to ask? The console market thrives mostly on store-bought purchases, many of which are recycled into the used-games market a year after their release, but 95% of the games aren't pirated. The PC gaming market, on the other hand, is almost the exact opposite: Most games, especially single-player games, sitting on PCs are pirated. So to get the same profit, you'd have to sell games for this console either at about 20 times the volume or 20 times the profit margin, to make up the difference.

Wait what? so 10 000 people buy and play a console game 200 000 people play a PC game of wich 10 000 of them actually buys it... indeed, this is some seriously heavy math we got here!

you're just asuming(like the recording intustry) that every download is a missed customer..

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[smallfries]

When you refer to this hypothetical steambox as open, what makes you assume that it will be? If it is custom hardware there is no reason to assume that it will be any more open than competing consoles. Linux on the inside doesn't guarantee root access, and if they drop bios for a signed bootloader it would be difficult to get into. The DRM in the system will be derived from steam, so I would assume that online activation will be mandatory. The piracy rate could actually be lower than the currently existing consoles as none of them enforce mandatory online activiation. It could also completely kill the second-hand game market for this device, so the economics of the market would quite new. As you wrote ealier, it would be up to Value to prove that gamers would buy into this market, although I assume the studios would love it.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. You and Girlintraining are morons.

EITHER this is a problem that you need to solve via hardware DRM, and there's no point in discussing the role of the kernel.

OR this is a problem that you need to solve via software DRM like every other fucking system including Windows and there's no point in discussing the role of the kernel.

"Waaaaah, DRM!" Go fuck yourself, aight?

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a troll.

Either you want hardware DRM, in which case talking about linux is stupid.

Or you want software DRM like every platform already has, including linux now via Steam.

"But DRM!" is not an argument. It is trolling.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[Anonymous Coward]

Start something. We'll join you.

Re:"Troll"? EXCUSE ME?

[MrNiceguy_KS]

Agreed. I haven't pirated a game in probably close to 10 years now, mostly for the reasons you mentioned, but also for one big reason: Steam Sales. Every time Steam has a sale, I have part of my brain whispering, "You already have a ton of games, a lot of which you haven't even played!" and another part of my brain whispering, "But they're so cheap! At least grab a couple!" The last couple of sales, I've mostly managed to resist, but I'm bracing my willpower for the Holiday sales I know are forthcoming.

this could finally stop the debate

[slashmydots]

I really hope they make one so that those clueless moron joystick monkeys can FINALLY be put in their place! I will load up some COD and walk up and down their ass with my mouse until they throw their controller across the room and rage quit. Mice are better than joysticks for shooters!!!! This could be the first mouse or joystick supporting console and it could end the decades long debate!

That said, it better support mice! lol.

Re:this could finally stop the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm, many console shooters support M+KB input.

Re:this could finally stop the debate

[AdamHaun]

Uhm, many console shooters support M+KB input.

Examples?

Re:this could finally stop the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

Call Of Duty series.
I'm not a big console or fps fan, but my friend has a PS3 with a keyboard/mouse and playing MW3 multiplayer with that feels like you are a superhero. If you get a chance check it out, but be ready for constant accusations of cheating.

Re:this could finally stop the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

Still butthurt about being beaten by a 5 year old at Halo 3?

Re:this could finally stop the debate

[slashmydots]

I have a PS2, lol. All ACTUAL gaming is done on my PC, thanks. Only console monkeys use consoles. That's why they're called console monkeys, rofl.

Re:this could finally stop the debate

[CronoCloud]

A few from off the top of my head:

Dust514
Unreal Tournament (on PS2 and PS3)
Red Faction
Deus Ex
Half Life on PS2 (but sadly, not the Orange Box on the PS3)
Tribes (PS2)

I wouldn't say it's "common" but it's common enough that one should check. Support for mouse and Keyboard often isn't listed on the box or sometimes even the manual even if it does have it, the PS2 version of Deus Ex is an example of that.

AMen

[Anonymous Coward]

I want good games. If good story writers and gameplay experts ran the show, we'd have more original, interesting groundbreaking games, instead of 'everything's a HUD' The guys that make money off the mini platform games are the people who should be given jobs at coming up with titles in gaming. These are the guys that will get the jobs in the Valve scheme of things. Leave NBA 20XX for the next generation of minions. Cool, original titles will always have a market and I foresee Android and possible even Valve having the most to offer.

Unlikely

[frinsore]

Now is probably the best time that Valve could release a console: get first mover status in North America against MS & Sony and probably Europe as well. But valve is a software company. Their experience with manufacturing, shipping, retailers, etc is limited at best. The boxed copies of Valve games are published by one of the traditional large publishers. I love valve as much as the next fan boy but the massive operational organization that is needed to support a console launch is slightly outside of their reach. Valve could partner with a distribution/manufacturing partner but the people that have experience in the entertainment space and who would be able to accomplish the undertaking is a pretty short list. EA could probably swing it and would scare both MS & Sony as their consoles would lose EA's games but with origin vs steam on the PC side of things I see this as slightly unlikely. I'd love Sega to make a Steam box, but that's simply nostalgia talking. Sony is the most likely partner as steam is already on PS3 (for some definition of steam) and ps3 runs a version of unix, but it would probably be another wedge between Sony & retail stores.

More then likely this is probably valve's experimentation into console space. They'll probably stream line it so that it's trivial to get your home linux machine to output to hdmi at the push of a controller button. Once the home experience is as simple as it can get then they'll make a business case for releasing their own console or not based upon revenue. Look at what valve has done with micro-transactions, free to play games, crowd sourcing, and non-game software: they dip a toe into the water and then once they're confident they move into that space.

Re:Unlikely

[mathew42]

Valve could partner with a distribution/manufacturing partner but the people that have experience in the entertainment space and who would be able to accomplish the undertaking is a pretty short list.

The short list is still large enough. Any of the big PC companies would be capable of this, especially those who have experience in the server space where linux is used. Asus would probably be my pick as they have considerable linux experience with the EeePC, but Samsung is another potential candidate. Alternatively you could consider the multitude of companies that make media centres / PVRs based on linux. Those companies have ready experience in consumer electronics and would just need to upgrade the processor and video card. The Western Digital TV is an example of this.

It may be even that all Valve are looking for is to create a reference platform, in much the same way that Nexus devices are the reference platform for Android.

The big benefit I see is the potential for significant improvement in linux graphics drivers.

Re:Unlikely

[Anonymous Coward]

ps3 runs a version of unix

This is incorrect. Neither the kernel nor userland is UNIX, Linux or anything POSIX. There is some GPL code used on the PS3 but it isn't running any UNIX.

Re:Unlikely

[Ziggitz]

You know they don't necessarily have to release the console themselves. They could easily make it an open platform and let Asus, Samsung, and other PC vendors make their own consoles based on it. Given that Valves hardware department can be counted on one hand, this is likely what's going to happen. You just need to be able to optimize against commonly used hardware, optimize the opensource graphics drivers and design specifications and maybe even produce a few controllers and peripherals. They would basically just be creating the console to enable their distribution system to expand into a new market. To that end, having someone else make the hardware instead of making it yourself at cost or even a loss is a much better scenario.

Re:Unlikely

[Anonymous Coward]

Incidentally... I believe this opinion piece has an interesting perspective on how Valve could farm out hardware manufacturing to ODMs...

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/geekend/where-valves-rumored-steambox-could-go/10162?tag=content;siu-container

Re:Unlikely

[BitZtream]

And the end result would be something like Android ... not a nice target to hit and pretty much gives you all the same problems as the existing PC game market. No point.

Consoles succeed because its fixed stable hardware. Multiple variations is not what going to work.

Re:Unlikely

[mustrum_ridcully]

Indeed, let Samsung or LG do things like integrate the "steambox" within their TVs, ASUS etc can produce their own stand-alone consoles or "steambox" compatible PCs. IMHO the only important thing is to standardise on GPU a,b or c, CPU x,y or z so as to reduce the number of different hardware configurations. Too many configurations and you'll get console users trying to cope some of the problems PC gamers have to deal with - not a good thing.

Re:Unlikely

[Ziggitz]

What we might see then is a kind of hybridization of PC and console hardware, which I'm sure PC developers would love, soon everyone will want to be distributing hardware that is compatible with the "steambox specification" and developers will have to optimize their games for a lot less hardware.

Re:Unlikely

[nine-times]

But valve is a software company. Their experience with manufacturing, shipping, retailers, etc is limited at best.

There was a rumor a few months back that Valve was partnering with Dell and the official "Steam Box" would be something like the Alienware X51.

Good news for Linux

[interval1066]

Funny how Valve's attitude has changed from "Linux, meh" to fully-committed boosters in less than 2 years.

Re:Good news for Linux

[DeathFromSomewhere]

You can thank Microsoft for that. Why would someone buy from a third party when you can buy games from the store built into the operating system? Valve is running scared because they see their biggest revenue stream drying up.

Re:Good news for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8

Re:Good news for Linux

[antant007]

You can thank Microsoft for that. Why would someone buy from a third party when you can buy games from the store built into the operating system? Valve is running scared because they see their biggest revenue stream drying up.

Why? Because the last thing like this (windows live games) was a complete pos.

Re:Good news for Linux

[Microlith]

Microsoft doesn't have to deliver a great solution, just something good enough that Windows users don't look for alternatives. That's the advantage you have when your solution is included with every install of the OS and your OS is a monopoly in its market.

The question will be if Steam and other stores have enough of a following to do what Netscape could not and ride out the anti-competitive maneuvers MSFT will make.

Re:Good news for Linux

[wallbase]

Why would someone use an internet browser from a third party when you can use the one built into the operating system?

This logic was enough to get IE to be the majority browser for a time, but if the alternatives are better, people will find them and use them. I really doubt the Windows Store will be better than the ecosystem Steam supports. At worse, it's a competitor to Steam. Surely Gabe can handle a little competition. Or is that why he hates Windows 8?

Re:Good news for Linux

[grumpy_old_grandpa]

Well, there was that antitrust case which went exactly nowhere. However, 12 years later we got a the browser ballot. So, around 2024 we can expect a similar ballot for the content delivery system / market place / FOSS repository for Windows.

Add to that the UK questionnaire about adult content filtering, and by 2050 I expect the post unboxing experience of a new PC (or the equivalent of that time) to be a two hour session with all kinds choices, cross examination, iris scanning and automatic lie detection, authentication, identification, cross government DB lookups, and to keep it all in place, a completely looked down system. Pretty much what Richard Stallman warned us of in 'The Right to Read' fifteen years ago.

Re:Good news for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I look forward to when valve, who basically have a monopoly on the PC store front, complain if/when the windows store becomes successful and then the whole bundling IE fiasco will repeat.

Re:Good news for Linux

[dkf]

Microsoft doesn't have to deliver a great solution, just something good enough that Windows users don't look for alternatives.

Luckily for Valve, this is something that Microsoft has consistently failed at to date over many years. While yes, they might change, Microsoft have never actually shown signs of understanding what is needed in a non-sucky system for distribution and securing games, and they really don't appear to understand the market they're selling to either.

This again?

[Anonymous Coward]

This was already shot down earlier this year:
http://kotaku.com/5891697/shooting-down-rumors-valve-says-theyre-not-making-a-game-console-any-time-soon

Until something is ACTUALLY announced can we stop this circle jerk?

This might work.

[davydagger]

systemd has cut down boot time. a stripped system could run a UI like XBMC.

I've got XBMC installed on my linux desktop and it interfaces with console kit/polkit and DMs like any other desktop, it doesn't work tell as a desktop, but it work awesome on a TV top device UI, and even supports lirc commands(linux IR remote interfaces).

Given the plethora of USB joysticks and gamepads on the market, and linux's excellent handling of removable media(front end multi-flash memory kit), development should be really really easy.

Also remember the xbox runs a stripped down version of windows 2000 on x86 hardware.

Re:This might work.

[Anonymous Coward]

Steam already has a UI for TVs, which the title of this article is referring to and, in giant red letters on the article page, says "WITH BIG PICTURE MODE, VALVE’S DESIGNING SPECIFICALLY FOR YOUR TV"

valve will be a contender if the other 3 drop dead

[Anonymous Coward]

give it a rest.
linux is good for cheap servers.
if you keep your transactions low enough.

Duh?

[watermark]

Anyone familiar with Valve saw this coming a long while ago. There were rumors of a game console more than a year ago. A few months ago there was an an announcement of official Linux support and then there was big picture mode. Depending on how you look at it, this news is either a year old or months old.

Re:Duh?

[BitZtream]

When they make the OSX version run on case sensitive file systems, then I believe that Linux is going to get a usable version of Steam and games.

Not only does it not work because they put in a check to disallow running on case sensitive filesystems, they actively do STUPID SHIT that causes breakage, like lower casing some paths, but not all.

There are normally no code changes required to support case sensitive file systems, only when you fuck with the paths yourself (for no apparent reason I might add) do you have issues with them. Meet Value and Source, which do so.

MAME / Arcade ROMs - legally obtaining them

[Anonymous Coward]

If Valve could somehow gain a license to legally sell arcade ROMs for MAME, it would be wonderful!

I;m sick of reading article after article about emulators and reading the warning message about owning the arcade machine before you download the same game for an emulator! Why even publish articles at all if the ROMs are illegal to download?

If anybody at Valve is reading this, please consider this. Thank you.

Re:MAME / Arcade ROMs - legally obtaining them

[Anonymous Coward]

Why even publish articles at all if the ROMs are illegal to download?

Because although it's copyright infringement, no one cares and no one's trying to enforce it.

Re:MAME / Arcade ROMs - legally obtaining them

[KC1P]

For about two seconds a few years ago, starroms.com had a bunch of classic ROM images for sale, all nice and legal-like, and reasonably priced too. But then Atari/etc. sat on it for some reason (they didn't like getting royalties from zero additional effort?). It was a real shame -- that's *exactly* what should happen to abandonware...

Re:MAME / Arcade ROMs - legally obtaining them

[Anonymous Coward]

mod parent up! this would be ground breaking! (AND LEGAL!)

2013 will be the year of the Linux game console

[gtirloni]

We're almost there.

Re:2013 will be the year of the Linux game console

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it will be the year of the Steam Powered Content Delivery System which apparently runs on Linxus or some shit. Whatever the fuck those are. probably a CPU or something.

Re:2013 will be the year of the Linux game console

[Anonymous Coward]

More like 2015-2016.

Valve will probably spend 2013 working on Linux games and closely watch the number of users using Linux (new users, dual-booting users, and users moving from Windows to Linux completely) as well as comparing how much they purchase compared to Windows users. Then, around 2014 assuming that 2013 is a success, Valve and others will most likely start working on their Linux-consoles and complete them in 2015 or so. Assuming non-Valve manufacturers (Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft) are willing to release a new Linux-based console that soon after releasing their upcoming consoles (PS4, WiiU, Xbox720), they will hopefully do so during 2015-2016, otherwise there's a risk that the concept of Linux-based consoles will not get enough media attention, which will seriously hurt the popularity of Valve's console, which in turn will seriously hurt the chances of Linux making it in the console world in the near future.

Of course Steam wants this

[sootman]

Joel Spolsky coined the term "Commoditize your complements" ten years ago. Steam, who sells software, wants consoles (or PCs acting as consoles) to be as cheap as possible, so as many people as possible can afford to have hardware that will run their games.

Every product in the marketplace has substitutes and complements. A substitute is another product you might buy if the first product is too expensive. Chicken is a substitute for beef. If you're a chicken farmer and the price of beef goes up, the people will want more chicken, and you will sell more.
 
A complement is a product that you usually buy together with another product. Gas and cars are complements. Computer hardware is a classic complement of computer operating systems...
 
All else being equal, demand for a product increases when the prices of its complements decrease... why don't the video chip vendors of the world try to commoditize the games, somehow? That' s a lot harder. If the game Halo is selling like crazy, it doesn't really have any substitutes. You're not going to go to the movie theatre to see Star Wars: Attack of the Clones and decide instead that you would be satisfied with a Woody Allen movie. They may both be great movies, but they're not perfect substitutes. Now: who would you rather be, a game publisher or a video chip vendor?

Now that the cheapest hardware out there is ridiculously capable, of course Steam wants you to throw a free OS on there and turn it into a Steam appliance. Which can also browse the web, play videos, send emails, make Skype calls, etc etc etc.

Re:Of course Steam wants this

[rasmusbr]

In addition to that I think a big share of the world's installed base of computers does not have powerful enough GPUs to run even the latest casual games. A big share of new computers are also shipping with relatively feeble GPUs. I imagine that Valve and Nvidia and AMD view this as a challenge and I guess one could imagine Valve teaming up with Nvidia or AMD to make one or several cheap laptops with powerful GPUs and then try to popularize those laptops just to get powerful GPUs into the hands of more people.

Anyone remember 3DO? Valve may be next.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

Careful Valve.. If its not really needed, you may not want to do it.

Re:Anyone remember 3DO? Valve may be next.

[Microlith]

Wasn't the fact that their console cost $600 in the early '90s what killed 3D0?

Re:Anyone remember 3DO? Valve may be next.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

Yes, and it was a terrible choice, and they forced the issue when no one really needed 3do.

As it was once said:

[ArsonSmith]

I don't know what the Operating system of the future will look like, but it will be called Linux.

About Those Linux Consoles...

[vga_init]

I'm sure this is common knowledge to many of us, but Linux platforms (including game platforms) are not really all that uncommon. Many posts I'm reading on here--the general tone of the discussion--seems to regard a Linux console as an unusual or extraordinary thing.

OK, we well all know that gaming existed in some form on Linux since the beginning. In fact, I'm a little bit impressed by the number of computer games that have been commercially released for Linux in the past two decades, not to mention games that have been cloned, ported, or otherwise created in open source fashion. We've had commercial video card support for ever, and decent APIs to work with... but what about platforms?

We've had platforms too. In fact, my first Linux console was the GP2X, which I purchased upon release in 2005 (7 years ago!). Granted, it wasn't that great of a platform, but it was something. I played Cave Story on it from start to finish, and it was the best gaming experience I had had since I was an adolescent.

However, if you really want to talk about Linux gaming platforms, look no further than Android. We have scores of Android devices in the wild (probably hundreds by now), and they come with all the hardware and software support you can ask for. In fact, I was a little bit surprised just how many games--most of them commercial--have been written natively for Android, and they're not even all casual. I would take issue with anyone who doesn't consider Android to be one of the main gaming platforms today.

So, a Linux gaming console is really not that crazy of an idea. As other people have pointed out, it really doesn't matter that much what OS your console runs... games are not particularly OS-oriented applications. I'm all for free software--I use the stuff all the time, but I still play games on my PS3. Sure, I can't tinker with my PS3 games much or the platform they run on, but if developing open source games were really my thing, Linux is right here on my PC ready and waiting.

Re:About Those Linux Consoles...

[JPriest]

Not to mention Steam already exists for Android and it could run on Ouya (Android console). At this point the development environments that exist for Android are probably as rich or richer than what is out there specifically for Linux and Android is hardly slowing down.

Re:About Those Linux Consoles...

[Grieviant]

I was a little bit surprised just how many games--most of them commercial--have been written natively for Android, and they're not even all casual. I would take issue with anyone who doesn't consider Android to be one of the main gaming platforms today.

So what exactly would be a competitive (non-casual) game on Android or any mobile device? You're kidding yourself if you think any remotely serious gamer considers phones/tablets with touch screen interfaces a respectable platform for gaming.

For your point about Android being a "main gaming platform", number of devices in the wild isn't all that important to developers unless it can be translated into money for their game. At $3, you've got to sell a hell of a lot of copies (like Angry Birds number of copies) to make a profit on a AAA title.

None of this really says anything about the viability of a Linux console, I just think you picked a bad example to try to show that Linux has already been a success in the gaming arena.

Re:About Those Linux Consoles...

[vga_init]

Ah yes, the "serious" gamer.

Re:About Those Linux Consoles...

[Grieviant]

Ah yes, the "serious" gamer.

No, not really. You can take 'serious' to include any casual player who has enough intelligence to see how the input controls affect the gaming experience. It's pretty hard to argue that touch screen simply aren't up to the task for all but the most trivial of time-waster games.

On the other hand, if you discount the craptastic experience and define "main gaming platform" based only on the number of titles available while also ignoring the revenue potential that would attract better titles, you're completely right that Android is a powerhouse in the gaming world.

It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.

[westlake]

The expensive high-tech toy has to hit retail shelves no later then mid-October.

You must make your Black Friday targets because sales will tank after New Year's Day. That means the Steam console is at least a year off, if it materializes at all.

Steam has been a great success in PC gaming --- but console gaming is a very different world. More couch-casual and couch-social. You are most likely to be playing cooperatively or competitively with friends and family in your own living room then engaging with anonymous online partners or opponents.

Making your mark in hardware sales can burn through mountains of cash in no time flat with very little to show for it.

It takes guts to stay the course,

Re:It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.

[tuppe666]

Making your mark in hardware sales can burn through mountains of cash in no time flat with very little to show for it.

It takes guts to stay the course,

I really liked your post. Microsoft was able to break into the console market simply because it was one of the few companies that could afford to do this.

...but this the world post raspberry pi - a console for $40 or the OUYA for $99. [I bought the OUYA on an impulse]. Steam have already got a store, front end, brand and industry connections so those costs are covered. Its a different world.

I have no idea what form the [mythical] hardware could take. but it could simply be a reference design , or simply streamed from a PC, or simply a store on Android. The hardware costs could be bore by others.

Re:It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.

[Kjella]

Steam has been a great success in PC gaming --- but console gaming is a very different world. More couch-casual and couch-social. You are most likely to be playing cooperatively or competitively with friends and family in your own living room then engaging with anonymous online partners or opponents.

Maybe... but I know of many people who play cooperatively or competitively with people they know over the Internet using consoles. I think it'd be easier for them to aim for the PC users, offer as much as possible as a PC+Steambox purchase - if you're on a PC now, you can have your games if you move to the Steambox and if you want a beefier machin you can move back to the PC. Steam has some rather unique opportunities to bring people over to their platform if they want.

Steam?

[Dunbal]

People still use Steam? Always late with patches. Their wrapper often breaks games or adds instability. Customer service is non-existent. Yeah no there are plenty of other options for buying/downloading legitimate games online. Good luck with the linux project. I want nothing to do with Steam.

Re:Steam?

[gman003]

People still use Steam?

As of this second, three million, two hundred and fifty-four thousand, seven hundred and seventy-three Steam users are online. They've peaked over five million. So yes, a lot of people "still" use Steam.

Always late with patches.

Can you give a citation there? I've never noticed them be particularly late to patch a game - in fact, they seem to do so faster than PSN/XBox Live. It probably does vary quite a bit depending on the game, though.

Their wrapper often breaks games or adds instability.

Another citation, if you would, please? I've only noticed that (rarely) with the Steam Overlay, which is easily disabled (both globally and on a per-game basis). And even then, all it did for me was kick me off some BF2 servers as a "cheat".

Customer service is non-existent.

While I haven't personally ever needed to speak to them, the reputation of Steam's customer service seems to have improved greatly over the years. I know back around 2006 or so they had a horrible reputation, but it's been years since I heard any complaints (a sharp contrast to Origin or Blizzard, in particular).

Yeah no there are plenty of other options for buying/downloading legitimate games online.

And you're welcome to use them. But how many of them are even thinking about Linux support?

Good luck with the linux project. I want nothing to do with Steam.

And you felt the need to shout that out for everyone to hear? Makes me wonder if you ever actually used it.

Re:Steam?

[Dunbal]

And you felt the need to shout that out for everyone to hear?

Sure. That's what the internet is for. For me to voice my opinion on stuff. What, you thought it was only about you?

Re:Steam?

[gmhowell]

And you felt the need to shout that out for everyone to hear?

Sure. That's what the internet is for. For me to voice my opinion on stuff. What, you thought it was only about you?

That would make both of you wrong, when clearly the Internet is all about me. And porn. Which is redundant.

Re:Steam?

[Dunbal]

Unless you happen to be a hot porn actress... but yeah, I doubt that lol

The OS is irrelevant

[Dahamma]

Why do people care what the OS of a Valve game console is if it's going to be locked down with DRM like any other console? (and given they are the current leader in PC game DRM, that's a given).

Not sure if many people realize it, but almost every single networked BD player made in the last 5 years runs Linux. Same with almost all networked TVs and set-top boxes. And while that's great for Linux development and reducing manufacturer licensing costs, it really doesn't change anything for the end user.

The real question for this hypothetical console is, why will major developers want to support it? It's going to have to have significant market share and lower licensing costs (and probably more gross revenue going to the developer) since in the end for a developer it's a business. And I just have a hard time believing Valve is going to be willing to put the literal *billions* of dollars into building and marketing a brand, distribution channels, developer outreach, training, etc that would be required to get that market share. There is good reason there are only 3 surviving consoles in the market...

Re:The OS is irrelevant

[gman003]

It's more of "this is how Valve could make a console" than "this is how a console will run Linux".

Valve doesn't really have the manpower or the expertise to develop their own operating system. And the licensing costs to put Windows (or god forbid OS X) on their console would double the price tag, if they could even get the licensing.

But if they port to Linux, it's a short leap software-wise to making their own console.

So you're misunderstanding the story. It's "Steam on Linux + Big Picture Mode = Steam Console (maybe?)". Linux support is just one of the ancillary things.

PS: Valve generally offers developers a far larger cut of Steam revenues than is traditional (rumor has the norm being a 70-30 split, favoring the developer), and they've already spent years building a particularly strong brand identity and relationships with other major publishers. They probably have as much a chance of pulling off a next-gen console as any of the established players.

PPS: This could, however, be good for Linux gaming. As it is, Steam on Linux will only support those games that are ported to Linux, which generally isn't worth the effort. But if there's a successful Linux-based Steam console, it improves the ROI by making the port easier. It's easier to argue to a marketing exec "we've got a game for the SteamBox (50 million users), so porting to Linux is basically just testing it under a few major distros and fixing some packaging things so we can get another hundred thousand users or so." than it is to argue "we can spend three man-months porting the game to Linux and we'll probably see 50,000 sales".

Re:The OS is irrelevant

[tuppe666]

Why do people care what the OS of a Valve game console

1) Microsoft - Because they hate gamers. Halo 4 on PC Nope, Backtracked on Over 18 Games.
2) Cross Platform - No more Direct X lock-in MAC; Linux; Android; iOS gamers rejoice, with more games
3) Linux [Android] Ecosystem benefits - Drivers; Developers; Optimised for Games...not servers...not phones.
4) Linux Development environment - Free; Massive Support; Massive software library.

why will major developers want to support it?

Why won't they want to support it? Seriously The constant stories of Microsoft treating developers like shit. Steam is a brand...and a developer in its own right. Hardware costs have dropped to disposable costs. Has developers contacts...and well Linux duh! The reality is Gaming has become cross platform...and not xbox - windows PC more Android - iOS and a Linux console is a better fit than any of the current consoles...ironically other than the Ouya ;)

Re:The OS is irrelevant

[BitZtream]

(or god forbid OS X)

http://www.freebsd.org/

The portion of OSX they'd want to use is free.

Re:The OS is irrelevant

[BitZtream]

Technically, FreeBSD is a better choice than Linux in this case. You get most of the advantages of OSX/iOS already having been ported to FreeBSD or from FreeBSD natively anyway. The only real 'disadvantage' is lower levels of support for random crappy hardware, but thats not really a concern for someone making a gaming console for 2 reasons. A) they won't be picking shitty hardware in the first place B) They have one set of drivers to deal with, they don't need to support every video card. Just one. Just one network card. Just one IDE/SATA/SAS chipset. Just one processor, ect.

Re:The OS is irrelevant

[Gaygirlie]

Why do people care what the OS of a Valve game console is if it's going to be locked down with DRM like any other console? (and given they are the current leader in PC game DRM, that's a given).

How do you define "leader in PC game DRM" here? I cannot find any statistics on what DRM-method is the most used one, so it can't be that, and besides, I'd say SecuRom is used much more often. Maybe you mean in user-friendliness? That I could agree with, what with Steam's own DRM-solutions being the most benign of them all.

Not sure if many people realize it, but almost every single networked BD player made in the last 5 years runs Linux. Same with almost all networked TVs and set-top boxes.

They actually run BSD. If they used Linux the manufacturers would be bound by the GPL, but with BSD there is no such a thing.

The real question for this hypothetical console is, why will major developers want to support it? It's going to have to have significant market share and lower licensing costs (and probably more gross revenue going to the developer) since in the end for a developer it's a business. And I just have a hard time believing Valve is going to be willing to put the literal *billions* of dollars into building and marketing a brand, distribution channels, developer outreach, training, etc that would be required to get that market share. There is good reason there are only 3 surviving consoles in the market...

But you're completely ignoring the fact that Valve already DOES have significant market share, a distribution channel of their own, marketing brand, developer outreach, training and all that. There's 40 MILLION accounts on Steam, of which over 5 million are all simultaneously active any given day -- that's a huge market, and there's a good reason for why so many publishers are extremely eager to push their content to Steam. With a Steam-console they'd only be given certain hardware-specs to target for and the devs could always count on having atleast the baseline-specs available, everything else already exists.

Re:The OS is irrelevant

[Dahamma]

How do you define "leader in PC game DRM" here? I cannot find any statistics on what DRM-method is the most used one

The SecureROM you are thinking of is physical copy protection. Steam is DRM of digital downloads. DRM != copy protection, though it may be a component of it. Other examples are Battle.net, EA Origin, Games for Windows Live, (and SecureROM with extensions for online DRM, but it's not that popular). Anyway, I'm talking combined digital distribution service with DRM, which would be the point of a Steam console.

They actually run BSD. If they used Linux the manufacturers would be bound by the GPL, but with BSD there is no such a thing.

Oh, really? How many TVs and BD players have you written code for? I know through personal experience that LG, Samsung, Sony, Vizio, Toshiba, Sharp, Philips, Mitsubishi, and almost all of the small/rebranded companies (Oppo, Sanyo, Magnavox, etc) use Linux for their TVs and BD players. Also, Boxee, Roku, WD, and most other streaming devices and STBs. Panasonic is the only one I know of using BSD on *some* of its TVs (and Linux on others, for whatever reason). And as far as Linux, they are bound by the GPL, you can get the kernel source (just not proprietary drivers implemented as modules - same as Nvidia PC drivers, etc). In fact, I have also written software for the PS3 and Xbox 360 - of course, neither of them run Linux, but I do have a fair bit of perspective on game console development as well.

But you're completely ignoring the fact that Valve already DOES have significant market share, a distribution channel of their own, marketing brand, developer outreach, training and all that.

Wait, you are going from arguing against my statement that Steam is already the market leader in PC DRM digital downloads, to arguing that *is* the case? So, are you trying to make a point or just be contrarian? Because you have already stated several things that are blatantly false, here... I think a bit more research might have been in order before trying to correct me.

Anyway, yes, I understand they are big in the PC business (which is what I said!), but the current console players (Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo) are in another league, and as everyone knows they sunk billions of dollars into their console businesses before they were able to become profitable. Not to mention manufacturing, retail distribution (a console is a physical item, you can't download it of course), quality control (those other three employ armies of QA testers to make sure the games work on their consoles - on the PC it's entirely up to the developer), and other areas. I just don't think Valve has that kind of cash or interest in that level of risk.

But who knows, I'd love to see more competition, I just don't want to see them fail hard...

BEh

[Dunge]

Valve does great campaigns for first person shooter. Stay in your domain.

Re:Hmmm, you're funny!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now why do i even wast my time showing how your argument is completely wrong? First, the PowerPC's chip in the Xbox360 and PS3 are both currently being manufactured using a 45nm process, and IBM created the PowerXcell a modified Cell processor using a 65nm process and this chip was 4x the performance at .3 TeraFlops of the standard 90nm Cell. So, if Sony or Microsoft were given the choice of building there next processor on the cheep and fairly common 32nm process and achieving a performance increase by a factor of 4 while still staying in the same power envelope of less than 50-watts, software stays backward compatible, and development tools stay the same, or go with Intel's 22nm amd64 processor which would be hot as hell, greater than 80-watts, performance may be about equal to a 45nm PowerPC, change all development tools, recompile all games, pay more for each processor because its on a 22nm process, layoff all PowerPC software engineers and hire amd64 software engineers. Now come on! STOP BEING A FU*ING IDIOT!

But...

[Amiralul]

...will it run Half-Life 3?

Re:But...

[dweezil-n0xad]

yes.

Re:LOL...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right, they haven't recently released a UI for TVs, linux support, or added references to some sort of "Steam Box" in the software. A completely unfounded rumor!

Can't happend.

[Tei]

In a perfect world Microsoft would not exist, or where a different company.

But the Microsoft that exist fight standards, and create propietery protocols or closed programs, and created huge dependencies for these, so people with one of his programs must buy the others. Microsoft fiery defend other companies, but not on quality, but on poisoning the well.

OpenGL was one of the key pieces to code a game once, and play it everywhere, and Microsoft succefully made it secondary with Direct3D. It has continued fighting all standards, to destroy them, and in games have a unmitigated success. Games are a world of Microsoft libraries, and game dev's don't know how to build games withouth these libraries, and the games created don't withouth these libraries (or libraries that emulated them).

At this point Microsoft is a cerebral parasite, and removing it would kill the host.

Re:Can't happend.

[tuppe666]

At this point Microsoft is a cerebral parasite, and removing it would kill the host.

...and yet gaming platforms exist without any Microsoft - PS3; Wii; 3DS; Vita; iOS; Android. Microsoft xbox/windows gaming dominance is a think of the past, and only really existed on the desktop...and they destroyed that by sh***ng on gamers. The future [now] is increasingly cross platform gaming, and reliance on single platform technology is liability not an advantage.

Re:Can't happend.

[BitZtream]

OpenGL was one of the key pieces to code a game once, and play it everywhere, and Microsoft succefully made it secondary with Direct3D.

:/ I've been coding games (no major titles I'll admit) for about 10 years. My DirectX experience is something like 'started to look at some example code ... thought, why bother? I'm going to support platforms other than Windows anyway' and then went back to OpenGL.

Yes, it is behind in some respects, but if you look at the major titles, they aren't really that much impressive between their OpenGL and latest and greatest directx variants.

Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[dbIII]

A lack of multitasking in 2012 is a bit of a drawback, and speed issues are a bit of a problem on even relatively fast hardware like the Jetbook Color. On something where response time is a selling point you don't want something that looks like it hasn't been updated since 1998.

Re:Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[drinkypoo]

Who told you WinCE doesn't multitask? They lied, and they lied a lot.

Also, who told you to start your comment in the subject line?

Re:Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[dbIII]

Who told you WinCE doesn't multitask

The people who are not using multitasking on current platforms like the Jetbook Color, stating hard OS limitations. Do you mean some as yet unreleased version of Win CE?

Re:Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[drinkypoo]

You sound just like someone else I "know".

I have owned numerous Windows CE platforms and all of them multitask.

Oh sure, it's pretty mediocre multitasking, but they do it.

Many Windows CE interfaces offer no opportunity for multitasking, but the underlying operating system does it.

Re:Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[dbIII]

You sound just like someone else I "know".

I do not care what baggage you have. Please be mature enough to discuss things with me without throwing in mysterious insults intended for another person.

Also that article does not answer the question since it's about win7 phone, and even then there's this little bit:

Back to the question, Can Windows Phone 7 Multitask? Of course it can, it’s just not fully exposed to third party developers

So if you are a third party developer putting together a platform based on it, what's the use of a feature you cannot use. Why not use just about anything else since the original Amiga (back before most readers here were born I expect) where you actually can use the feature?

Re:Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[drinkypoo]

You sound just like someone else I "know".

I do not care what baggage you have.

No, what I mean to say is that your prior post had an incredibly douchey air to it, in precisely the same way as those of someone else I know.

So if you are a third party developer putting together a platform based on it, what's the use of a feature you cannot use

If you had said "Windows phone 7 does not permit multitasking" you would have a point, but that's not what you said. You said something which was stupid because it was patently false and came from a position of abject ignorance. We all do it once in a while, but don't compound the error by moving the goalposts.

Re:Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[dbIII]

OK, so now you are pretending my comment on you little bit of misdirection to Win7 phone is "moving the goalposts" to Win7 phone because I actually referred to your link?
Put up or shut up instead of posting some crap about Win7 phone and Silverlight that has nothing to do with WinCE.

Re:Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[drinkypoo]

Put up or shut up instead of posting some crap about Win7 phone and Silverlight that has nothing to do with WinCE.

If you were qualified to comment on this discussion, you would already know that WinCE has multitasking support, and if you had understood my link, you would know that Windows Phone 7 is just another version of Windows CE, which has had multitasking for many versions at least, if not since the beginning. I personally have three Windows CE devices of various versions predating Windows Phone 7, and all of them multitask. Only one of them offered a multitasking interface out of the box, a PDA. But there are well-known methods for adding functionality to Windows GPSes, most of which present their volumes as USB mass storage devices these days. You simply move aside the GPS application and place a launcher in its place. Some of these devices even have the original Windows CE desktop, which has a start menu on a task bar which permits you to select from the various tasks you're running on this multitasking operating system.

Now, since you neither have any experience with Windows CE beyond perhaps using some devices based on it, nor have you managed to read and understand anything relevant about Windows CE including my link, why don't you just shut your ignorant cakehole?

Re:Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[dbIII]

OK then, if I take your words at face value it appears what I was told relates to no multitasking available to people outside of Microsoft that wish to put WinCE on their devices and can now understand how "no multitasking available to third parties that want to implement an mp3 player and interactive text reader going at the same time on their device" would be shortened to "no multitasking". However that does not excuse your misdirection and now stream of vitriol when asked a direct question with a simple answer. Please adopt a more mature attitude instead of childish insults, and remember that not being an expert on a system should not be a barrier to asking simple questions about it.
Besides, I'm still not convinced since to be utterly frank, you've posted a few things that are not correct and that bait and switch with Win7 phone and Silverlight (both not likely to end up on a console) was no answer. If you were "qualified to comment on this discussion" you would be able to find some documentation on the actual thing being discussed instead of something else. I find it very difficult to believe that if true multitasking were available on WinCE it would be some sort of hidden easter egg and not a well documented selling point with easily available documentation - once again, put up something real or shut up.

Re:Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[drinkypoo]

However that does not excuse your misdirection and now stream of vitriol when asked a direct question with a simple answer

I offered no misdirection whatsoever, that was you, because you were unable to understand the citation I offered you. The vitriol is because you continue to blame me for your lack of understanding as if I were responsible for your inability to understand English. Don't blame me for your failings.

Besides, I'm still not convinced since to be utterly frank, you've posted a few things that are not correct and that bait and switch with Win7 phone and Silverlight

If you think that is a bait and switch, you are clearly too stupid to be permitted to post to slashdot. Windows Phone 7 is Windows CE. There's nothing special about it. It's Windows CE with yet another facelift to the GUI, just like WM2003 was, like WM5 was before that.

I find it very difficult to believe that if true multitasking were available on WinCE it would be some sort of hidden easter egg and not a well documented selling point

That's because you have no fucking idea what you're talking about whatsoever, and are just flapping your suck indiscriminately. Apple did it, why wouldn't Microsoft, when Microsoft is always trying to copy Apple? Answer, Microsoft did do it, and if you simply looked up some references on Windows CE multitasking instead of saying ignorant shit here you could find that out. Now, go use google to find further confirmation. You cannot tell me to "put up or shut up", because I have already put up, and you were simply too stupid and/or incompetent to understand the citation I provided which clearly states that WP7 is Windows CE). Put up or shut up? Learn to read, or fuck off. Learn something about the topic at hand, or accept that you know nothing about it and shut the fuck up.

Re:Win CE isn't good enough anymore

[tehcyder]

A lack of multitasking in 2012 is a bit of a drawback

Not for me. I do all of the following as single tasks, one at a time: watch TV programmes, watch movies, and play video games.

Does anyone seriously play a game in a window while having a movie play in another window and the web/TV news showing on a third?

you still need good threading/process management

[cheekyboy]

net based games, theres udp traffic.
many players at once, theres bluetooth controller traffic.
background downloading = more os tasks
plus because its linux, you can develop your games on a real pc too with nvidia hardware i guess.

Re:Linux based Valve game console?

[miknix]

I repeat what I said before in another post:

Not only that but if you think on it, Valve can actually create a dedicated gaming platform using Linux (with dedicated hardware or not). Steam on Linux might just be the entry point for it.

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2896153&cid=40218485

I wonder why people only now started wondering about it..

os slowww

[Anonymous Coward]

But many China mp4 players and TVs have a basic linux os, they are framelocked with sunplus chips so no drop frames. You never see the os until you hack your tv.

Android had probs though. I give it a big fail.

Live USB stick first?

[rklrkl]

Why is that the article jumps from "Linux for Steam" to "Valve will design and maybe license a Linux-based games console"? Surely the obvious step inbetween is a customised Linux distro for a live bootable USB stick (with a decent capacity to hold a few games) that can do the following:

* Check the PC meets the minimum hardware specs that Valve require. Anything below the specs is highlighted and suitable upgrade alternatives listed (Valve could have sponsored links here to hardware sites). No games can be played until the minimum specs are met.

* Login into a Valve steam account and downloads any updates to the live USB setup.

* Download any new games to the USB stick.

* Play the downloaded games.

* Shutdown and reboot back to their normal Windows/Linux setup.

This way a user doesn't have to worry about partitioning, dual boot etc. and can just take their USB stick to a friend's house and play it on whatever PCs they have that meet the minimum spec (which could even include a Mac machine?!). The only issue might trying to prevent cloing of the stick and letting it be run on two machines at once - not sure if that's doable (and some games might have more liberal licensing to let you do that anyway).

Once the whole live USB experience is refined, only *then* do Valve commission a gaming console with the (upgradeable) live image shipped in flash storage - they'll want to optimise boot times too so that it's not 1 min+ to start up.

Apple Fanatics posing as BSD Advocates

[tuppe666]

Technically, FreeBSD is a better choice than Linux in this case.

No No its not.

I'm not really sure what your post has to do with mine. I long since came to the conclusion that the only people left who support BSD, are Apple users, who profits from the one way take, and love the richest corporation on earth doing the same again. Having a quick scan of your posts confirms this sad fact again.

The reality is Linux is stellar product, technically brilliant, and has numerous contributions from its own mega corporations, with a great lead...regardless of the license its under. I see your trying to push some kind of OsX agenda!? which is kind of sad considering how Apple could have got behind cross platform gaming and OpenGL...and have done nothing.

I have no problem with Apple taking from BSD. Although Apple fanatics pretending to be BSD advocates I always find a little sickening, especially considering the reasons behind the BSD license.

Precisely

[Sycraft-fu]

Developers and publisher like Steam because it is easy to sell on, there's a lot of people that buy from it, and it gives you a larger cut of the final sale price than retail.

They are all in to Steam because it is some amazing special platform, just because it lets them get more sales and money on a platform, Windows PC, that they already sell on. For that matter, most of them will go and sell on other online distribution platforms as well, like Impulse, GameFly, and so on.

In terms of the DRM, some publishers like it and use it explicitly, releasing Steamworks games that will require Steam, regardless of where you bought them (including retail). Others could take or leave it, using it only when it is on Steam and then only because it is mandatory (some even have a loader that is the Steamworks encrypted executable, letting you run the game without Steam). Still others don't trust it, and include their own DRM on top of Steamworks. Yet others, EA in particular (the biggest publisher out there) will use Steam, but are more interested in having people use their own DD service (Origin in EA's case).

The game industry sure doesn't hate Steam, it was what ushered in DD revolution, but they are sold on it as a platform. All they care about is it lets them sell games on a platform people buy them on, that being MS Windows.

Valve can put Steam on whatever they want, that doesn't mean developers will flock to it. To see that, just look at Steam on the Mac. Here you have a fairly large platform, yet the amount of games for it is far, FAR smaller than for Windows. Steam coming over to the Mac didn't suddenly make publishers want to spend the money to port their games. Some see the Mac as being worth the cost to port to. More of them don't.

Valve is a sellout to trends, thats all.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is valves thing. They find what will get them the most attention from gamers so they will always play to a crowd. They will flip flop rapidly, they will bash others for no reason and they will always try to do what whatever they think people want.

Sony- Valve never had a problem with sony until sony started to become the cool thing for gamers to hate. Suddenly out of nowhere valve can not shut up about sony and will bash them in a very immature way every single chance they can. Gabe for years on end would use any excuse he could to bash sony in interviews, even if the interview made no mention of sony or had anything to do with them. He literally hated them publicly for years and was quite immature. And his only reason was that orange box on ps3 ran like shit so he blamed sony but it was valves fault for just letting EA do a shitty port to the ps3 and valve did not do the port themselves not to mention if the ps3 was shitty then EVERY game EVER made would run like shit on it. But! Sony starts to get popular in the eyes of gamers again and suddenly gabe is on stage to unveil portal 2 for the ps3 and he is almost sucking sonys dick and praisng sony and giving them acclodes as to what a visionary and awesome company they are. So he just said whatever he thought gamers at the time would want him to say.

He used to love windows and praised MS but now that windows 8 is out and people dont like it he is bashing it and microsoft and saying how windows 8 will ruin gaming, it will ruin the indie market, it will be the death of the pc and blah blah blah all because he thinks its what people want to hear. So now he is supporting linux because its what the nerdiest of the nerds want to hear despite the fact linux really isnt that great but he knows linux fans are like apple fans and will desperately argue for their product just because of its name and those types of fans are the loudest because they just wont shut up and will go on internet wide tyrades about what they like with no thought or reason behind so valve is playing into their hands.

Then you have all the shit like counter strike, left 4 dead, defense of the ancients 2, day of defeat and so on. Valve bills them as their games, they credit themselves and they put their name on them but the thing is, valve did not make those games. Well except DOTA2 they are making that but they didnt invent it, DOTA was just a mod they decided to rip off and make a sequel to. Most of "their" games are mods that were made by someone else but they take credit for under their banner.

Valve isnt a bad company really but they have only actually made just a few games themselves and they will say anything they can according to what popular opinion is at the time which makes them shill sellouts.

Well duh, but thanks Captain obvious.

[Barryke]

This probably isnt going to earn me upmods, but many (and afaik i even said it first) said this on /. ever since they expressed their Linux interest. Its bloody obvious.

I Don't Care

[krisamico]

about any of this crap! I want more Half Life, dammit!

Win phone 7 and Silverlight is not WinCE

[dbIII]

because you were unable to understand the citation I offered you

The citation was about using software not available for WinCE on an operating system that is not WinCE. Pretending otherwise is dishonest. Why are you doing so? If you are trying to tell us that current WinCE devices such as the Jetbook Color are actually running Windows 7 phone when there are many differences then what is you motivation for being so obviously misleading?

and if you simply looked up some references on Windows CE multitasking

I did, which is why I found things suggesting it was not available. Apparently you have real information that contradicts that other than your bait and switch. I'm still waiting for you to put up or shut up with a link to something that can be trusted instead of your own words since you've been caught out being misleading above.

Re:Win phone 7 and Silverlight is not WinCE

[drinkypoo]

because you were unable to understand the citation I offered you

The citation was about using software not available for WinCE on an operating system that is not WinCE

You're still too stupid to understand that Windows Phone 7 is Windows CE? How the fuck did you figure out how to create a slashdot account and log into it while drooling on yourself?

One last time and then, if you still don't get it, I will assume that everything you say is stupid and wrong for ever and ever. Windows Phone 7 is Windows CE, and it has multitasking capabilities because it is Windows CE. The interface Microsoft provides doesn't offer any access to these capabilities, but Microsoft still uses them behind the scenes to offer operating system services, just as they do when they offer a multitasking interface. Your inability to understand all of this marks you as a complete moron who should stop drawing breath immediately, or at least, stop posting to slashdot. That, or you're just a big fat fucking troll, and I hope you try this shit in real life so someone punches you in your stupid face.

Re:Win phone 7 and Silverlight is not WinCE

[dbIII]

Obviously Windows 7 phone is an entirely different version of Windows CE to what would be available to console developers. What is your motivation for your bait and switch?

Re:Win phone 7 and Silverlight is not WinCE

[drinkypoo]

Obviously Windows 7 phone is an entirely different version of Windows CE to what would be available to console developers. What is your motivation for your bait and switch?

You said something stupid about Windows CE, I provided a citation which contradicted it. What is your motivation for libel? That is the crime you are committing when you accuse me of bait and switch when I clearly have engaged in no such fraud. Were you born this stupid, or did it require multiple head-oriented drops in your infancy?

Re:Win phone 7 and Silverlight is not WinCE

[dbIII]

No, your citation was about something else - thus a bait and switch.
The truly ridiculous thing is it turns out I was wrong and you could have easily shown that with a link about the actual OS and not another and something available on the OS to and not silverlight which is just on the phone version, but instead you had the bait and switch and a pile of disgusting insults.
Thus defeat snatched from the jaws of victory, an epic fail, truly vile insults and now crap about "libel". Why unleash a sewer full of character flaws instead of just answering the question? What's this shit about insulting me because you remind me of somebody else?
This entire exchange has been a depressing waste of time but I suppose it did motivate me to question what I was told by a WinCE developer (ie. "it can't be done, there's still no multitasking in WinCE") and look it up for myself. You were no help at all. With your dishonesty and misdirection I was driven to not believe anything you wrote so didn't bother to look up information about the actual OS that could be put on a console until yesterday.