Windows XP Drops Below 40% Market Share While Windows 8 Passes 1%

An anonymous reader writes "Just three months ago, we reported how Windows 7 had finally overtaken Windows XP in terms of market share. Now it's time to see how long it takes Windows 8 to succeed its predecessors. Between October to November, Windows XP fell to 39.82 percent while Windows 8 jumped to 1.09 percent."

Comments

I Wonder?

[lister king of smeg]

I wonder if win8 will ever pass the xp market share

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh boy, I sure can't wait to install an OS with a phone interface on my desktop/laptop, that makes so much sense!

Re:I Wonder?

[kthreadd]

I hope so. I especially hope that Windows XP usage drops significantly up until April 2014 when the support ends. By then at least all companies still using XP should have moved, they usually care about those things.

Re:I Wonder?

[kthreadd]

Oh boy, I sure can't wait to install an OS with a phone interface on my desktop/laptop, that makes so much sense!

So use the desktop interface then. It's still there.

Re:I Wonder?

[epyT-R]

yah the same way freedom 'is still there' in current US domestic policy!

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

That way there's no cognitive effort when switching between your phone and your desktop.

I'm looking forward to the Microsoft car, which will have a bicycle seat and controls.

Re:I Wonder?

[vistapwns]

Who'd a thunk that all the grievance industries are interrelated.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh boy, I sure can't wait to install an OS with a phone interface on my desktop/laptop, that makes so much sense!

Don't forget that it is a phone OS from a company that nobody buys phones from.

CAPTCHA: horrible

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

99% of companies get minimal support from Microsoft today. Automatic updates may close some security holes every now and then, while opening others. Most security holes are in (Microsoft) applications, which still should receive the updates. So why would they care about dropping support, let alone be a reason to throw away all there hardware and most incompatible software, and invest a lot of money (form where?) to build a new system ?
Most small and middle companies run on OEM or retail licences, which remain perfectly valid after support has dropped. (Volume licensing is only an upgrade on top of an OEM or retail licence.)

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope so. I especially hope that Windows XP usage drops significantly up until April 2014 when the support ends. By then at least all companies still using XP should have moved, they usually care about those things.

More likely they'll switch to windows 7 and then wait for 9 or whatever (or say 13 if Microsoft are serious about having a new version every year). At work we couldn't even get it to support multiple monitors properly before giving up in disgust.

Re:I Wonder?

[Keruo]

Volume licensing is only an upgrade

Or downgrade.
If you have active SA on machine that has pro/ultimate sticker, it gives you permission to run W8, W7, Vista, XP, Windows 2000, NT4 or DOS6.22 & W3.11.
Yes there's also 2 and 1 but all applications on them run on W3.11 anyway.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

The guy did NOT have NO gun? So what are you trying to tell us what what relevance does it have in this discussion?

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

I ain't the other AC, but there ain't no explaining nothing to you. ;)

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well. That escalated quickly.

Re:I Wonder?

[H0p313ss]

Oh boy, I sure can't wait to install an OS with a phone interface on my desktop/laptop, that makes so much sense!

That's what I said too. But as a technologist I need to keep my hand in with operating systems so I installed Win 8 on my mac through bootcamp.

It's kind of rough around the edges, but it's still better than most Linux desktops, and better in many ways.

I'm not convinced that the general public will pick up on this, but Win 8 is probably a better fit for inexperienced users than anything else out there right now.

Re:I Wonder?

[penix1]

I wonder if win8 will ever pass the xp market share

Microsoft's biggest competitor has always been itself. This is an effect of having the software pre-installed and aiming for the unwashed masses who don't go beyond what they got with the machines.

As a side note, for shits and giggles I just ran the Windows 8 upgrade assistant and it informs me I will have to dump almost a quarter of the applications I use daily and that my screen resolution was too low for snap (whatever that is). It also informs me the touchscreen I have (HP Tx2Z) isn't compatible and that gestures won't work right. Now the question is why I should update and lose perfectly good software I purchased and is working right now as well as system functionality that is working right now just to have the "latest" version of an OS? Why should I go through the pain of the update when I don't need to? That will always be the Microsoft fight and why XP is hanging in there for so long.

Re:I Wonder?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Oh boy, I sure can't wait to install an OS with a phone interface on my desktop/laptop, that makes so much sense!

Of course it makes sense . . . for Microsoft. You see, you're not supposed to use a keyboard or mouse to interface with your Windows 8 desktop/laptop. You're supposed to use your Windows 8 Phone, connected to your desktop/laptop, as your interface. Your Windows 8 Phone is the keyboard and mouse. This means that every Windows 8 desktop/laptop user will need to buy a Windows 8 Phone, as well. Microsoft is doing this because their Nokia subsidiary is not doing so well, because Nokia is selling Windows 8 Phones, instead of iPhones or Androids. Or Blackberries.

So you don't need to worry about installing a phone interface on your desktop/laptop. You will be using your Windows 8 Phone to interface with it anyway.

Does that sound bizarre enough for a Sunday morning?

Re:I Wonder?

[RobertLTux]

but the problem is you get Metro going MEESA IMPORTANT LOOK AT MEES NOWZ!!! every five minutes or so

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm... Did Vista ever pass Windows XP? It appears not, but I'm not sure if there was a point where it historically passed it before waning.

Wait, I just noticed the same data means Win 8 hasn't passed Vista yet. I guess that will be the first milestone.

Re:I Wonder?

[Lumpy]

I know of systems that are making $1500 an hour that still run Windows 2000. OS Vendor Tech support means nothing to most companies.

Re:I Wonder?

[jbolden]

1) Nokia is not a subsidiary of Microsoft.
2) You don't connect your phone, I'm not even sure Windows 8 supports phone input at all. What you should be doing though is buying a touchscreen monitor

Re:I Wonder?

[kthreadd]

Sounds a bit irresponsible to run such important systems on operating systems which no longer receives security patches.

Re:I Wonder?

[Nyder]

Oh boy, I sure can't wait to install an OS with a phone interface on my desktop/laptop, that makes so much sense!

So use the desktop interface then. It's still there.

No point. I'll stick with Windows 7 myself. It works just great, no point in upgrading.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

This means that every Windows 8 desktop/laptop user will need to buy a Windows 8 Phone, as well.

Making every iPhone app developer buy a Macintosh has worked out very well for Apple.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the common fantasies of the anti-Windows crowd is that Windows users are poor ignorant fools who don't know any better. In fact Windows is almost universal in corporate America. Just go to your local bank branch and open your eyes.Incidentally fooling around with OS upgrades is nearly exclusively a hobbyist pastime neither the typical home nor corporate users ever upgrades their OS

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean downgrading.

Re:I Wonder?

[rtfa-troll]

So use the desktop interface then. It's still there.

You should have a look at this usability report which will help you understand it better. Basic summary: applications are written for either the desktop or the Metro interface. Where the apps are written for a particular interface you have to use that interface to use the app. There are some places where two different apps have the same name on both sides (for example "Internet Explorer" exists as both a Metro and a Desktop app) but you can see that they are separate from the way that they don't show the same Window list. Imagine the confusion which can happen if you use "Metro Internet Explorer" started from another metro app and then a desktop app also opens "Classic Internet Explorer".

All this confusiion adds up to an interface which very much slows down and confuses the user.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's not connected to the internet, what's the problem?

Re:I Wonder?

[rtfa-troll]

on this, but Win 8 is probably a better fit for inexperienced users than anything else out there right now.

Please remember that it's for usability it's better to go with testing with multiple users than opinion since what seems to an technology expert to be good for a beginner might not actually be. In this case the testing has been done and a summary is avialable.

having two environments on a single device is a prescription for usability problems for several reasons

• Users have to learn and remember where to go for which features
• [..]
• Switching between environments increases the interaction cost of using multiple features.
• [etc... ]

Read the full report to get the rest. Basically added to an interface which has been designed for graphic effect rather than usability:

the new look sacrifices usability on the altar of looking different than traditional GUIs

this all adds up to a system which will take much longer to learn and have much higher training costs than other UIs which exist currently, including Windows 7.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure how productive you are with your computer, but if I had to keep my arms stretched out in front of me all day to use my computer, which is only capable of showing me one thing at a time, I would go completely insane and would probably have sore arms and shoulders. No thanks... I hope MS realizes that people are actually getting smarter when it comes to computers and not dumber as they seem to be designing for. One size fits all absolutely does not work in this case. I have tried windows 8, and I can tell you that it might work ok for a phone or touchpad, but as a laptop/desktop interface, I would be significantly less productive and would switch to ANY other OS at any cost.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just got a shipment from newegg. Enclosed was a flyer for a "Windows 8 Game" whereby one could win a copy of Windows 8. I smell fear.

Re:I Wonder?

[jbolden]

People are actually getting dumber. The accumulated traditions are becoming a problem. Computer literacy has been declining for a decade.

And you don't keep your arms stretched out all the time. You lift your hand from the keyboard to hit the screen once in a while, the same way you lift your hands to hit the mouse.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why did you skip 7?

Re:I Wonder?

[NibbleG]

There are many tools to make Win8 look and feel a lot like 7 here are links to them http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33642_7-57496506-292/how-to-get-the-start-menu-back-in-windows-8/ . I am sure many of us here are familiar with ninite.com , there is a installer for the Win8 Classic shell for even easier installation.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

And this is why I love the nib/nub or touch pad when working. A mouse is for playing games where one hand stays on the mouse and the other is on the keyboard (or if looking at porn, other periperhals). With a nib I can physically keep my hands skill, just my fingers move, which greatly reduces the strain on my arms, shoulders, and even back. It may not seem like much, but doing anything for 8 hours will cause tiredness and soreness (even if you have trained enough to not notice it, but the damage is occurring).

It always amazes me how many computer programmers and IT people complain of back and neck problems, buy very expensive chairs, and even have special seats to relieve it, but never make a connection between the arms and neck movements while using their computers. Two things which I believe can help significantly (and I have seen it help for a few cases):
1. If you have neck problems, try reducing your monitor size (unfortunately, this is like penis size for computer people) so that you don't have to move your head around to see everything on the screen(s).
2. Back pain, sit properly, get a nib/nub based keyboard so you don't have to keep twisting your arms, shoulders, and back to reach the mouse (which, if you are right handed, is quite a distance away from the keyboard thanks to the numberpad and the large keyboards computer people tend to get too (is this becoming another penis size thing too?)).

Re:I Wonder?

[LordLimecat]

Its a huge pain to deal with Metro constantly lurking in the shadows, only to pounce on me when I least expect it.

Incidentally, I still cant figure out where Im supposed to go to launch non-pinned non-metro apps. Hooray for useability!

Re:I Wonder?

[hairyfeet]

Actually if it does MSFT will be VERY unhappy, as Ballmer wants fragmentation up the ass, why? Because it took 7 years of sales to get XP that high and Ballmer don't want ANY product in the channel longer than 3 years. Also by getting lots of churn he can have the OS push whatever he wants to sell, this time its appstores, next time may be games or streaming media.

Personally with all the backlash i'm seeing against Win 8 here at the shop I'd frankly be amazed if Win 8 ever breaks double digits, too many people just hate the hell out of Metro for it to end up at 40%+ like Win 7. Although I am pretty shocked that Vista seems to be locked at 5%, it looks like there are some die hard Vista fans that just aren't gonna let go of it.

Another telling metric is the fact that despite the hatred of Metro it looks like Linux is doomed to stay under 2%. Personally I blame the devs and distro packagers for this, because every time it looks like Ballmer is gonna crap out another turkey they have to shoot themselves in the foot by throwing away working designs for alpha quality crap, see the mess that is Pulse, or KDE 4 and Gnome 3 shoved onto the public when they weren't even at alpha quality yet. It just seems the devs can't leave well enough alone and if the distro isn't so bleeding edge the CDs have stigmata and the software so alpha it crashes if you look at it funny then the devs just aren't happy.

Re:I Wonder?

[MaWeiTao]

Why wouldn't it make sense? Have you used Windows 8? I have and it's far more intuitive and efficient than I've ever found Windows to be. The smartest thing they've done is bury all the technical stuff. It's still there, just like desktop mode is still present. But as has long been an advantage of OSX users don't feel like they're fighting the OS. Except that Microsoft has gone the extra step and not only offered excellent integration with online media but they've evolved the desktop environment. And for all the emphasis on touchscreens it works incredibly well with an conventional mouse and keyboard setup.

Sure, it might not be ideal for some, although I don't see why that would be the case as the desktop is still there. But regardless, just because miners need dump trucks doesn't mean that all drivers should own one.

Of course, if Microsoft had given us a rehash of XP for Windows 8 many here would be decrying the lack of innovation and progress.

Re:I Wonder?

[MightyYar]

It certainly cut down on the crapware. Not as much as is needed, but the Android market has some real gems. (I'm an Android user.)

Re:I Wonder?

[jbolden]

Good advice.

Re:I Wonder?

[MightyYar]

Incidentally fooling around with OS upgrades is nearly exclusively a hobbyist pastime neither the typical home nor corporate users ever upgrades their OS

That is only true with Windows. Apple users seem eager to update the OS on their various devices.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anne Thwacks]

But as has long been an advantage of OSX users don't feel like they're fighting the OS.

My mum has a Mac, and I have to say that, on the few occasions I have attempted to use OSX, ido feel like I am fighting the OS.

Sure its better than DOS 3.1, but I prefer fvwm95. I think I will go on using KDE on OpenBSD, and keep my Geek card, thanx.

Re:I Wonder?

[MightyYar]

It is "present". So is a whole separate interface, and the two are mostly unaware of one another. It's like a free virtualized tablet stapled to Windows 7, which would be forgivable if you weren't forced to switch to the virtualized tablet to launch applications.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anne Thwacks]

Please drink up you Koolade, It seems you already need an extra helping.

Re:I Wonder?

[westlake]

I wonder if win8 will ever pass the xp market share

I wonder if Linux will ever pass Win 8's market share.

---- and by "Linux" I mean the traditional community oriented Linux distribution, not Android.

Android is defined by Google and the manufacturer or distributor of the Android based device. The FOSS oriented geek may hack the device and side-load apps. But the FOSS oeienred geek is not by any stretch of the imagination a significant force in this market.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that's what i want to do, keep touching my laptop screen while working. All those fingerprints just make this shinny screen so much better.

And i would say nokia is a subsidiary of microsoft, it may not be that in the official books, but nokia has nothing else left.

Re:I Wonder?

[Alex Belits]

I'm looking forward to the Microsoft car, which will have a bicycle seat and controls.

With Microsoft design philosophy I would rather expect a motorcycle with a cat seat and a steering wheel.

Re:I Wonder?

[MacGyver2210]

That's not even true with Windows. Many many users, particularly gamers, update their OS regularly. You need to do so to keep up with the newest cutting-edge games and their frilly-but-unnecessary features(ahem, DX11). It also helps with things like hardware management(a-la >2-3 GB ram requiring a 64-bit capable OS, disk size, etc).

Windows 8 might be the exception, though. It really offers nothing over Windows 7 besides the Metro UI, which many capable users are going to find is more of a hindrance than a help. Having to navigate between these modes is a nightmare for me thus far, and software/hardware compatibility is WTF lacking compared to Windows 7. Why would you make a touchscreen-capable OS that doesn't support a great many touchscreens? Why would you require a resolution above the current average resolution? I get that we need to start upping the resolutions on computers in general(1024x768 max res, seriously?) but this is just driving customers and potential customers away.

It's also fair to point out that what passes for an 'upgrade' with OSX is actually what MS called a Service Pack for ages. Apple just loves to charge you every chance it gets instead of helping you be productive with what you have. Lion is a bit of an exception, in that they did a major UI overhaul, but it's still not as extreme as XP vs Win 7 or Win 7 vs Win 8.

Re:I Wonder?

[lorenlal]

If we're discussing anecdotes:
I upgraded my gaming rig... Because I figured I might as well get used to using Win 8. My conclusion in using it since the end of August, is that Metro is a glorified start menu. I personally spend less time in the Metro interface than I even spent in the start menu.

Now, in some ways that's good. I'm finally forced to use the search function to find the program I'm looking for. Instead of Start->All Programs->Vendor->Program, I now hit the windows key, and start typing what I'm looking for (which is pretty quick) and I just click that. I feel it's slightly quicker than going through the main start menu. No gain if it was commonly used and I had it it on quick launch. Overall, my keyboard usage in Windows is way up, and I do more switching between keyboard and mouse.

It's also bad because I'm not using Metro Apps at all. I don't use IE. I don't use the "store." If anything, I'm now encouraged to just create desktop shortcuts for the few things I use on a regular basis. I may just be stuck in fallback mode, but that works really well for me. I don't care for the Metro interface on my PC. I don't hate it, I just don't use it. I think the value-add for me was minimal, and in fact I even think Win 8 is a slight loss for me... Not enough to switch back, but on the next rebuild, I might just stick with 7.

Windows 8 on my laptop resulted in formatting and becoming Ubuntu only. I liked it even less, and with the realization that I'm not gaming with that Intel integrated card, I finally felt enough motivation to just abandon Windows on it. I gave it a fair shake... I gave it one month. I'm much happier with Ubuntu.

I get the feeling that most businesses will just stick with 7. I don't think 8 will ever pass 7 in the business environment. The business cost of moving to 8 to gain... Metro?... I don't see it. The costs of doing proper testing vs a benefit I don't see is why I feel this way. If anyone knows of ways that Windows 8 can actually increase productivity vs. Windows 7, I'd love to hear.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, a motorcycle is too lightweight and fast.

Re:I Wonder?

[timeOday]

That is only true with Windows. Apple users seem eager to update the OS on their various devices.

My Macbook Pro is still running Snow Leopard for the same reason I'm disinterested in Windows 8 - later releases of OSX seemed to revolve around cellphone integration and fullscreen apps, i.e. serving Apple's interests in ecosystem lock-in. Pass.

Re:I Wonder?

[MightyMartian]

Translation: I need to make an ad hoc rhetorical barrier to win this argument.

Re:I Wonder?

[wvmarle]

1) Nokia is not a subsidiary of Microsoft yet.

FTFY.

Current strategy seems to be to make Nokia as a company lose a lot of value so they're easier to buy out later.

Re:I Wonder?

[fustakrakich]

That will all change when your new computer that you will eventually have to buy won't run Windows 7. And if everything goes according to plan, Microsoft is going to speed things up a bit

Re:I Wonder?

[penix1]

Who said I skipped 7? That is what I am running. 64 bit to be exact. The thing came with Vista and I upgraded to 7 for stability issues. Besides, 7 handles multi-gesture better than Vista.

Re:I Wonder?

[graphius]

other than the *many* shills, most people seem to be saying Win8 is fine if:

1) you ignore "Metro/Modern/whatever UI and the associated apps and only use the desktop
2) you install a start menu replacement

In other words, if you change Win8 to work the same way as XP/Win7 it is ok. So why again do I want Win8 on my desktop?

(Of course this is ignoring touch, which is a whole other conversation)

Re:I Wonder?

[silviuc]

So basically you pay money to upgrade to Windows 8 and then you pay more money to get back the functionality of Windows 7 and to make windows 8 look like windows 7. Yup, that makes a whole lotta sense.

Re:I Wonder?

[silviuc]

Well, there's the key: linux desktops. Plural. As in there is quite a few to choose from. Some may suck, some suck less, some may even fit like a glove. No such luxury with Windows 8 though.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone knows of ways that Windows 8 can actually increase productivity vs. Windows 7, I'd love to hear.

With Windows 8 less time is used to play solitaire as it's only installed through giving a human soul to Microsoft and partners.

Re:I Wonder?

[Alex Belits]

I meant car seat, of course.

Re:I Wonder?

[__aaqvdr516]

To quote LouisCK "Everything is amazing, and nobody is happy"

If you're still supported and everything works the way you want, then there is no need to update. If you feel that you *must* update your system because everyone else is, then you're very susceptible to groupthink.

Re:I Wonder?

[norite]

Just grab classic shell from sourceforge. It's free and the latest version bypasses metro altogether you you don't even get a glimpse of it when you log in :0 When i was testing win8 this little program made it quite bearable. I suspect a lot of people will install one of these 3rd party apps for their friends on win8 just for a bit of piece and quiet :)

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's kind of rough around the edges, but it's still better than most Linux desktops, and better in many ways."

bullshit.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

You suck with analogies. Microsoft put the UI of a small device (tablet) on a large device (desktop), not the other way around. AC got it right.

Re:I Wonder?

[NibbleG]

They are all free actually, and Win8 has better multicore support and what not

Re:I Wonder?

[NibbleG]

Ok, to be honest I didn't look in to ALL of them, but AFAIK they are free...

Re:I Wonder?

[nschubach]

Then you clutter up your panel with icons... that's valuable space that tasks could be using.

Re:I Wonder?

[jawtheshark]

Although I am pretty shocked that Vista seems to be locked at 5%, it looks like there are some die hard Vista fans that just aren't gonna let go of it.

No, it's much simpler than that. There was a time where the only thing you could get from OEMs was Vista. Well, sure the "Business" version has downgrade (to XP) rights, but the others don't. Ever for the downgrade rights, you need a XP OEM CD and if you don't happen to have one, you're not good. Microsoft does not let you download ISOs where you can re-use your key (a grave mistake in my eyes). So, normal people, who bought a PC in the period from about January 2007 to July 2009, got Vista. The exception being netbooks, as Vista couldn't cope with that emerging market. I know you hairfeet, I know you sell computers. I'm sure, you have customers that are not nerds. You know as well as me that many people will buy a laptop (usually, it's a laptop) as an investment and use it as long as possible. With laptops that three to five years, but it might become longer because the power-requirements of normal users have plateaued. Now, funnily enough, these are also people who don't upgrade operating systems and keep what's on their machines. That 5% will go down, very very very slowly, as these machines die of old age.

That's what you're looking at... That's the 5%. People who have a computer, think it was too much of an investment to replace, swallow down the problems they have and will replace the machine when the time comes. Then, they will get a new computer with whatever operating system is current then.

These are also the users that, upon seeing my desktop, ask me with a puzzled face: "Hey, what kind of Windows is that?".

If technology isn't the center of your life, operating systems are not interesting, and they probably simply consider their Vista laptop a lemon...

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

I updated IOS on my iPad and it is horrible, choppy, junk. Worked better before, but going back isn't an option in the walled garden of the apple orchard.

Re:I Wonder?

[SScorpio]

Open the start screen. Right click with your mouse and choose "All Apps". This will list everything that was in the start menu.

Alternatively, open the start screen. Then just start typing on your keyboard and a filtered list of apps will appear just like they did with Vista and 7's start menu.

Two really handy shortcuts are:
Win + D will drop you out of any Metro app and back to the standard desktop.

Win + X will pop up an Administrative menu that will give you access to most of non application things you'd dig around the start menu for.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, shooting a guy in the back is bad, but not nearly as bad as using a double negative.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

I always get the same stupid answer.... No things like classic menu are only part of the solution. Try to get something stick to the menu, it isn't as easy in windows 8 as in windows 7. The options are just missing...

Further all shadows are gone, back comes a flat interface. If you like it, so be it. I don't like it.

Look at office 2010 in comparison with office 2013. (I'm still using 2003, don't like the ribbons). Office 2010 looks very beautiful. Office 2012 looks ugly. Visual Studio 2012 or so, same problem it looks very ugly (in comparison with Visual Studio 2010).

I don't understand why people want to use windows 8 than configure a lot to make it more like windows 7. Why not add a few things to windows 7, that we like from windows 8. Like a better taskmanager.

Faster booting is nice, but most of the time I'm not booting my pc....

I haven't said anything about usability yet...

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm looking forward to the 'apple' car.

Re:I Wonder?

[Tastecicles]

I've not even looked at Win8 yet, I've had no urge to. What I've found with 7 as *the* feature to have, is what OSX has had since the year Tet: integrated taskbar/quicklaunch. Although, I do think with a little tweaking*, Microsoft have actually done a better job.

*By "tweaking", I've taken down the pretties so it's basically the Win2K look but maintained the taskbar/quicklaunch integration. Now I have three rows of buttons and instant access to every app on my laptop. I can't remember the last time I hit the start button. My wallpaper is clutter-free and I get to enjoy my Battlestar Galactica slideshow unimpeded by program icons.

Re:I Wonder?

[Tastecicles]

what, 7? I just plug the damn thing in and it worked. Hell, I plugged in a USB VGA dongle and that just worked. You must have some weird exotic graphics card or monitor for it not to...

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft just released an app on Android that allows your tablet/phone to act like your Windows 8 touchscreen. They're gonna release an Apple app also if they already haven't. Basically just a RD(Remote Desktop). There's no vendor lock in or anything like that, you want the extra sync options a windows 8 phone offers than go ahead.

Re:I Wonder?

[Lumpy]

Only for people that cant understand private networks.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 might be the exception, though. It really offers nothing over Windows 7 besides the Metro UI,

There is native 4k disk and usb3 support, if the graphics switch bait is ignored. Too bad many drivers are still in beta and compatibility with special software is still not known.
    I got the system unbootable by simply disabling a driver which didn't run anyway and had to use system recovery. Some drivers report race condition related problems, one of my hard drives is recognized as a portable device while others aren't, the search initiated from the management console about items in the system log seems to be nearly unusable, some built-in Windows Store apps suffer from acute inability of updating and installing for certain local users, and some of the tricks with worked taming Windows 7 using group policy and register settings don't work any more. There are still issues.
  I don't even think about touch screens and actively avoid thinking about them while using the system and increasingly choose to use an actual websites instead of a metro application for that better user experience.
  The upgrade pricing is the killer feature of Windows 8, I would say, if you upgrade from XP or Vista. Local store upgrade price is 266,90 EUR ($344.30) for Windows 7 Professional and 55,90 EUR ($72.11) for Windows 8 Pro.

Re:I Wonder?

[arkhan_jg]

I've switched to win 8 on my gaming PC because it boots much faster with my uefi board and ssd - about 20 seconds to desktop. That, and the much improved copy progress status dialogue are the main reasons I've not used the 7 install on the same box for a bit now. Metro is irritating, but after getting rid of all the metro apps and putting my game shortcuts and common apps, its bearable. There's still pointless irritations, like not being able to pin certain shortcuts, and not being to launch the desktop version of the default browser at all from metro if it has a metro mode, and of course the stupidly hidden shutdown.

Win 8 desktop mode is a definite speed and usability improvement over 7 - it's just such a goddamn shame they rammed metro down our throats, it needs some serious work to even be as good as a basic start menu replacement.

Re:I Wonder?

[penix1]

There are two reasons I ran the test. First, as I said, for shits and giggles. To see what it would break if I was forced to update like the poor sods stuck on XP for whatever reason. Second, because we are already seeing things for Windows 7 beginning to die. An example is the gadgets. Going to: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/downloads/personalize/gadgets reveals what we will see more and more.

Re:I Wonder?

[Mashiki]

Oh boy, I sure can't wait to install an OS with a phone interface on my desktop/laptop, that makes so much sense!

Well that's really the only problem with Win8. Toss on Start8 or Classicshell or one of the dozen other startmenu knockoffs and it's no problem from there. Once metro is toast, it's a good improvement over Win7. I do like it, I've been using it for nearly a month now both on my gaming machine and on my sidebox programing rig. It's faster, leagues faster than Win7, stability is better, hell even crash recovery is better.

Stuff I don't like? AHCI driver switchovers are still a pain in the ass. Especially in upgrade scenarios, or new builds if you forget to make the change in the bios. Temperamental 'charms' bar. Well metro I already mentioned above. Bunch of other small things that aren't worth mentioning. It'll still occasionally revert and break custom shell menu software, though that could be a bug of the software itself not working properly. Haven't looked at that fully.

Stuff I do like? Better backwards compatibility with older software. Stuff that wouldn't run with blood sacrifices on win7 will work now, and stuff that wouldn't run at all on WinXP run flawlessly. Especially games. New taskmanger is nice, especially the breakdown in to groups, and 'who's running what' doesn't beat process explorer but it's better. And if you're in simple mode, it doesn't overload some people when you're telling them what to do. Much better searching, despite the naysayers MS actually did get some improvements in there. Better backup and recovery is nice as well.

Best thing? Self-repair, and the ability to fast restore the machine to a state before it was unbootable. Already used it. I was impressed, I deliberately trashed the registry, and corrupted core driver files and it was able to fix it--something that Win7 couldn't do outside of recovery mode, and something you needed the recovery console to do in XP. So I trashed it harder and it couldn't. So I used the restore to new state, it took 10minutes.

Re:I Wonder?

[AK Marc]

If you want to spend lots of time customizing your desktop, then it's great. I was never one of those people. A few keyboard shortcuts, and it's the same as 7. Though I already extensively used the quickstart bar, otherwise, it'd be painful.

Re:I Wonder?

[tstrunk]

My Macbook Pro is still running Snow Leopard for the same reason I'm disinterested in Windows 8 - later releases of OSX seemed to revolve around cellphone integration and fullscreen apps, i.e. serving Apple's interests in ecosystem lock-in. Pass.

Is Snow Leopard still supported with security fixes? Previous evidence pointed otherwise, which would also force you to upgrade quite soon. See here: http://www.sture.ch/node/196

Re:I Wonder?

[Hal_Porter]

Jar jar is a pretty good analogy for Metro actually.

Re:I Wonder?

[chromas]

Pinned applications become task buttons when opened, as in the Apple dock but less pretty.

Re:I Wonder?

[AbRASiON]

STOP DOING THIS PEOPLE.

Microsoft don't see the sales / activation figures and think "Gee so many users using Win8 but dropping the UI to Win7 / classic mode?! sheesh" they simply see a sale and assume they are doing the right thing.

Don't support this idiot behaviour in the first place. The desktop is a desktop is a desktop for a reason, sure it could be improved but hamfisting a phone UI on top of it isn't goign to help anyone.
Stop fucking giving them damned money. Just because it's 'only' $40 doesn't make it a deal. I can give you AIDS for $40 too, is that a deal?

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. Apple user still on 10.6 here. I want nothing to do with the new finder NOR "natural" scrolling. Yes, I know I can turn that off. I see no reason to update until my applications stop working.

Re:I Wonder?

[NibbleG]

Calm down... its just software, you don't need to buy it.

Re:I Wonder?

[jbolden]

Whose current strategy? I think there is a lot of Finnish paranoia about Nokia, where a lot of people aren't willing to accept the explanations that seem rather clear: the pieces of the Symbian -> MeeGo strategy were not getting done fast enough and Nokia was in a box they could not get out of. What Elop managed to do was get a lot of money for an OS conversion he was going to have to do anyway. I think he saved the company from bankruptcy.

As far as burning value, things haven't gone well. Nokia's execution is still terrible but that has been to Microsoft's detriment not advantage.

Re:I Wonder?

[Waccoon]

Just what I always wanted. An OS with a mandatory ad browser attached.

Re:I Wonder?

[KingMotley]

I'm not sure why you would want to install a start menu replacement unless you really really hate change that much. The start screen is just like a start menu, but instead of it taking up a very small part of your screen, it now expands to fill your entire screen, which makes sense. If you are actively trying to start an application, why wouldn't you?

Re:I Wonder?

[hairyfeet]

Uhhh...you're right, I sell computers, and I actually had many customers just as you described....they bought the $50 Win 7 HP upgrade and that was that. hell if you haven't tried a Vista to 7 upgrade its the most painless thing in the world, you didn't even need a guy like me as long as you were replacing like with like, like 32 bit for 32bit, because it would transfer your docs and setting on the upgrade so it was pretty damned painless.

And believe me I know about the long tail in laptops,l i still have customers running Turion singles and first gen core from over 6 years ago. Hell even my netbook is pushing 3 years old but I have to give Asus credit, the AMD EEE still types nice, has a responsive keyboard, I still get a little over 4 hours on the battery. Barring anything happening to it I could see myself using this 5 years from now because the kind of work I have when out on a call just doesn't need a powerhouse mobile unit.

But that still don't explain to me why in all this time they wouldn't have taken the Vista system to a local shop to ask for advice, hell most of us are happy to hand out advice for free and I would have told them to grab a Win 7 OEM and either DIY or have me do it, hell its such an easy job to do I don't even charge full OS install price for a Vista to 7 upgrade since I don't have to do a bunch of data backup first. Maybe they like it? You know the rule EVERYTHING will find somebody that loves it, they have Zune fan clubs ya know. I had one customer that hung onto fricking WinME until 2009, he had one of the very few systems released that had ONLY WDM drivers and for him it was rock solid stable and for the basic jobs he had it worked just fine. I have met exactly ONE, just one mind you, that actually prefers Vista, and that is a little old lady with a laptop. Since all she does with it is surf she never sees a UAC prompt, and she is using so little of the C2D that is in the laptop that Vista can be as piggish as it wants and she'll never know it, all she ever does is have a single Google Chrome tab open on the thing anyway.

So who knows, maybe that 5% is just like her and their usage patterns mean none of Vista's weaknesses affect them, considering how many PC users are out there I'd be the first to say this is very possible. Heck it took me ages to get my GF off her late model P4, because with her only checking her email and going to FB a 3Ghz P4 with WinXP worked just fine for her. That low end Athlon triple I built for her will no doubt be her main system in 2020 when Win 7 is EOLed and if we are still together then i have no doubt I'll simply slap Win X on it as its several times more powerful than she really needed but frankly it was cheaper to build than something weaker.

Re:I Wonder?

[graphius]

because you have to search through too much clutter and crap to find what you want. I have said for years that Microsoft's start menu needs work, filing programs by manufacturer just doesn't make sense, but you could always reorganize it (Most Linux distributions have a more sane organization, filing graphic programs under graphic programs, for example) Now the MS "menu" is an even worse clusterfuck. Nothing is organized, too many programs are listed, while the one you want doesn't seem to be there at all. It has become a Where's Waldo that takes over your entire screen. And no, taking over the entire screen just to look for a program does not make sense, unless your screen is too small, like on a phone or tablet...Oh yeah right, the desktop is dead...

Re:I Wonder?

[Little_Professor]

Instead of Start->All Programs->Vendor->Program, I now hit the windows key, and start typing what I'm looking for (which is pretty quick) and I just click that.

You could do that in Windows 7. You could also use the same method to launch any documents, songs or videos on your drive, without needing the extra step of pressing the down arrow to select the "files" lens.

Re:I Wonder?

[mysidia]

If you are actively trying to start an application, why wouldn't you?

Because you are multitasking, and watching an open window for any changes, while you go open a command prompt to start another continuous ping running to something.

Re:I Wonder?

[mysidia]

I'm looking forward to the Microsoft car, which will have a bicycle seat and controls.

That's only what you get when you first step in. You can pull the big red button that says "Do not push"; and you will immediately have your traditional dashboard and steering wheel back

The only thing missing will be the PRNDL and turn indicators. Which will now be replaced with a blank space on the steering wheel. To access those, you will need to push the new "Home" button, which will bring up the old controls

Just be careful about using it while in motion, as your entire dashboard will be temporarily obscured by the full dash 'command menu' until you choose the action you want to take

Re:I Wonder?

[Alex Belits]

It's still possible to drive a car with bicycle controls and seat, however motorcycle with car seat and steering wheel will be more comfortable while standing still but fall when anyone tried to ride it.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

other than the *many* shills, most people seem to be saying Win8 is fine if:

The only thing stupider than the obvious 'shill' comments is morons like you who are too stupid to realize they are just being trolled.

In other words, if you change Win8 to work the same way as XP/Win7 it is ok. So why again do I want Win8 on my desktop?

So just to clarify, your understanding is that there is virtually no difference between Windows 7 and Windows 8 if you ignore the MetroUI/Start Screen?

Re:I Wonder?

[timeOday]

Dang, is it that old already? This is in a corporate environment, so they'll force me to upgrade when it becomes unsupported.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

right click in the bottom left hand corner and select 'Command Prompt' from the context menu.

Re:I Wonder?

[KingMotley]

Then hit Win-R

Re:I Wonder?

[antdude]

For me, XP Pro. SP3 until 2014 when its support end. Then, I will go to 64-bit 7 or something else beside Windows 8. Maybe W9 will be out that is correctly designed like Vista to 7.

Re:I Wonder?

[symbolset]

Corporate America is waking up to the notion that kicking the Windows habit has costs. And that you only have to pay those costs once.

Re:I Wonder?

[exomondo]

So is a whole separate interface, and the two are mostly unaware of one another.

It is a replacement for the start menu, they have the same awareness of eachother as the start menu and desktop do in Windows 95-7.

It's like a free virtualized tablet stapled to Windows 7, which would be forgivable if you weren't forced to switch to the virtualized tablet to launch applications.

How are you 'forced' to switch to it to launch applications? You can't pin them to the taskbar? Or create a desktop shortcut like just about every application asks for when it is installed?
How often do you actually use the start menu? I don't really use desktop shortcuts on Windows or OSX, i pin stuff to the dock/taskbar, but anything else i launch by using the search, which means hitting the Windows key in Windows or (Cmd+Space in OSX) and start typing...which of course works the same in 8. I never end up clicking through the start menu to find things, it's far more efficient to type what i'm looking for.

Re:I Wonder?

[symbolset]

Today in response to a market that recoiled from Windows 8 in horror Microsoft kicked off a new marketing campaign. It's the "Hey, wait! You can still get Windows 7" campaign. Look for it in about 500 syndicated news articles and captured "trade" mouthpieces throughout the next week.

Re:I Wonder?

[Ol Olsoc]

like you morons that claim you cant use linux or gimp...

A pity that you were modded to oblivion, AC. Because you do bring up a very good point

Re:I Wonder?

[exomondo]

Well we've been hearing about how this is a golden opportunity to switch to Linux since there is going to be a re-training cost with Windows 8 anyway, many companies could probably avoid machine upgrades with a switch to Linux as well. So i think it's a legitimate question, a common argument to justify the lack of consumer and corporate adoption of Linux on the desktop has been that people are averse to change (and we've certainly seen that manifest itself as vocal opposition to the start screen) and this is why many people avoid a switch from familiar Windows to unfamiliar Linux, but now it's unfamiliar either way.

Re:I Wonder?

[slashmydots]

I wonder if win8 will ever pass the xp market share

It won't even pass Windows 7. Windows "blue" aka 9 is coming out in under a year.

Re:I Wonder?

[shutdown -p now]

There isn't really much to customize in Metro. Okay, so you get to rearrange tiles around, and make some of them bigger. And? You don't even get to set a pic of your choosing as the background - you can only choose out of several dozen built-in ones.

Re:I Wonder?

[shutdown -p now]

The start screen is just like a start menu, but instead of it taking up a very small part of your screen, it now expands to fill your entire screen, which makes sense.

That's precisely the part that doesn't make sense. It's very distracting to have your entire screen flash in front of you and be obscured by something else.

Re:I Wonder?

[shutdown -p now]

and not being to launch the desktop version of the default browser at all from metro if it has a metro mode

The browser is supposed to allow you to choose desktop-only, Metro-only or context dependent in settings. In IE, it's in Tools -> Options -> Programs.

Re:I Wonder?

[shutdown -p now]

Start8 is the only one worth installing, and it's not free. But then it's, what, $5?

I wonder how much Stardock makes off it, though. It could well become their most purchased app.

Re:I Wonder?

[shutdown -p now]

Basically added to an interface which has been designed for graphic effect rather than usability

This is very much arguable. The whole point of Metro, if you read its design documents, was to be different for the sake of usability. Subjectively, I think it is more usable on touch devices than the traditional icon-centric touch UIs. My limited experiments with a few casual users seem to confirm that it's easier to learn, at the very least.

Re:I Wonder?

[clarkn0va]

I've switched to win 8 on my gaming PC because it boots much faster with my uefi board and ssd - about 20 seconds to desktop.

My desktop computer boots to a desktop in around 10 seconds in Ubuntu or Windows 7. My laptop (Core i3) in under 20. I'm not trying to get into a hardware pissing contest, I just don't see anything attractive about your claim for Windows 8, unless you have a specially slow computer. Maybe if you told us how long it takes to boot into Windows 7 by comparison we might see some comparative benefit.

Re:I Wonder?

[clarkn0va]

if you haven't tried a Vista to 7 upgrade its the most painless thing in the world, you didn't even need a guy like me as long as you were replacing like with like, like 32 bit for 32bit, because it would transfer your docs and setting on the upgrade so it was pretty damned painless.

Lucky you. My first and only attempt to upgrade Vista to 7 resulted in the upgrader puking up something to the effect of "Upgrade can't continue. Sorry." At this point the upgrade was essentially finished, it merely failed to restore the user settings, resulting in me spending a buch of time digging user files out of buried folders with obscure names and plopping them back in their correct locations on the new system.

This was nothing complicated either. I build and installed the Vista system just weeks before 7 came out, and did the upgrade as soon as the free media was available. The customer was a light user and didn't know how to check his email when I delivered the thing, so it's not like he was in editing the registry or something. The whole thing had hardly been touched.

Anyway, I don't doubt that you've had good experiences with it, but it's not something I'll try again.

Re:I Wonder?

[jawtheshark]

Perhaps your customer base doesn't really intersect with the people I had in mind. I actually think of the people that get their computer at a big box store and wouldn't see the difference between Vista and 7 (at least superficially). They don't go for advice to the shop where they bought it. Yes, they might have a nerd/geek which they could ask, but often they don't because they really do think it's "normal" and don't want the deluge of explanations given. I recently just met a whole family (with PCs, a couple of iPhones and iPods) that has access to no geek whatsoever. Heck, they were using POP3 on both the iPhone and the computer to check their ISPs email. You obviously know what effects that has, and it came up one day, just by the remark "Say, couldn't you look at our email, we keep losing it...". That's the people...

Then there are also those, as you correctly identified, that know 7 is there but really don't want to throw money at a problem that should not exist (and they're right no?) I basically have had one, falling in that category, tell me "Reward Microsoft for giving me something that doesn't work well? Never!". That's the sentiment Microsoft got from putting out Vista as it was. Do keep in mind that man is a computer power user, but he also knows that upgrading is best done by reinstalling. You say upgrading Vista to 7 is a cakewalk, but I personally wouldn't trust it. It's called experience. Since he's a business owner, and his laptop is a very important working tool, upgrading is a guaranteed way to have it "down" for a day or two. The risk remains that there are unforeseen consequences. The best option for these people is to buy a new machine and migrate slowly. However, again, he's a business owner: I don't know how he amortizes his machine, but that's probably 3 years. I guess, he's bound to get a new one soon, but that's going to be Windows 8. That's going to be fun....

All in all, I think you underestimate the willingness of "normal" people to stick with what they have until it's time for replacement. Heck, look at me: I still use my 83cm 16:9 CRT TV bought in 2003. It works fine, I ain't gonna replace it. Is there better? Sure, but the CRT has good image quality, works fine and cost a lot of money back in the day. Unless it breaks, I'm not getting a new TV. (The difference with Vista, being that my CRT TV is actually *good*)

Oh, and if I said "I know you", it just means that when I read comments I never look at the username, but by now, I recognise you by writing style. I say, "Oh, that's surely hairyfeet", scroll up a bit, and I'm pretty much always correct.

Re:I Wonder?

[LordLimecat]

Then just start typing on your keyboard and a filtered list of apps will appear just like they did with Vista and 7's start menu.

AFAICT that only shows metro stuff. For example, when i type "Windows update", it does not bring up windows update; likewise typing "notepad" brings up no results. I tried it as well with a freshly installed program (I think firefox?) and that did not appear either.

To launch the non metro version of one of those progs I ended up browsing to program files, which is kind of obnoxious.

Re:I Wonder?

[unixisc]

sans the Start button, and in any way that one is familiar w/

Re:I Wonder?

[MightyYar]

It is a replacement for the start menu

No, I'm talking about how the Metro apps don't show up in the taskbar and the desktop apps don't show up in the super-secret Metro taskbar.

You can't pin them to the taskbar? Or create a desktop shortcut like just about every application asks for when it is installed?

I am a big fan of pinning to the taskbar. I even got on the jump menu bandwagon recently. Desktop shortcuts are just clutter to me and do not fit in to my workflow. Hitting the show desktop button is just as complicated as going to a separate Start Screen. Tapping the Windows button and typing a name still works, but not as responsively as in Windows 7 and it no longer lists recent documents without additional keystrokes.

Seldom-used stuff, I still have to browse for in the Start menu/screen.

Re:I Wonder?

[helix2301]

Well I think issue with 8 is people are not desperate to get off 7 like they were vista. Twit talked about this the other day and even said that 8 is not the break out OS Microsoft expected it's not a failure but not what Microsoft expected. I am surprised to see the popularity of the Windows Phone taking off a lot of young kids enjoy the block style constantly updating with there friends social media streams.

Re:I Wonder?

[flirno]

It should be faster than that. My win 7 box is done booting and loading the os in about 12 seconds. Granted that is with 2 SSDs, 1 velociraptor and a slower 2 tb drive for mass storage.

Re:I Wonder?

[flirno]

Hampster wheel.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically you pay money to upgrade to Windows 8 and then you pay more money to get back the functionality of Windows 7 and to make windows 8 look like windows 7. Yup, that makes a whole lotta sense.

Nope. You pay money to upgrade to Windows 8 and then you get back the functionality of Windows 7 for free; big fucking difference. Because if you look at the link posted by GP you will notice that free (as in beer) applications are listed there. You must be new here, posting flamebait like that without checking the facts first. Or then again, maybe I must be new here, expecting somebody to write a coherent and well thought out reply on this website (especially when said reply is Micro$oft bashing oriented, towards which /. tends to be extremely permissive).

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

I like it. I'm using it at home and at work. At work I never see the start screen since all my programs are pinned to the task bar anyway. The few times I use it it's the same as windows 7 - Hit windows key, type the first letter or two of what I need to run, hit enter. No change.

At home I also rarely see the start screen but I do it's generally useful. Small things like hitting winkey to quickly check the weather or my calendar. I'm also a big fan of using the app splitting thing to have AllRecipes and One Note up. Being able to search AllRecipes using Bing is also handy in that instance.

I haven't used Win8 on a touch enabled device yet but so far it hasn't hindered me with mouse and keyboard or on my laptop with just a touch pad. It certainly hasn't made anything more difficult/complex and there are some things I'm genuinely enjoying. My use of keyboard shortcuts has increased significantly over Win7 (although I'm not sure exactly why) and I consider that a good thing.

At worst you can say Win8 doesn't offer any compelling reason to move from Win7. I've read the critiques of the Win8 interface and I'm just not seeing the hate.

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

I did the same - installed slackware and kissed Windows for goodbye and will try to run old Windows games with Wine. I bet - Windows 8 will have some backward compability problems, just like it was with previous Windows versions. I couldn't run MOO2, and Civilization 2 on Windows 7 and couldn't find anything to replace these games. I can perfectly run Minecraft on Linux - why should I care about Windows 8?

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget that it is a phone OS from a company that nobody buys phones from.

Because they don't make phones.

Re:I Wonder?

[lorenlal]

Which is why I included the "I'm finally forced to use the search function to find the program I'm looking for." I was well aware of the search function in 7, I just never cared enough to use it.

Thank you though.

Re:I Wonder?

[purpledinoz]

Windows 8 is really confusing, until you install Classic Shell to bring back the start menu. I never use the Metro UI for anything.

Re:I Wonder?

[SScorpio]

I'm not sure what the issue is with notepad, I see both Notepad and Notepad++. But Windows Update isn't a program. You'll find it under settings when you search.

Windows 7's start menu included every type of time in your search be it a program, setting, document, or email. Windows 8 will only search a specific type which I've found will speed up the search since it's not digging through email and file indexes when I'm looking for a program and vice versa.

Finding the non-Metro Windows Update can be tricky because the only item listed as "Windows Update" is the Metro version. But you should also see the view install history which will also open it. The problem is that Windows 8 tries to hide updates from the user and perform them in the background.

But when I see the start screen and start typing, it will start filtering through every application I have installed on my computer, not just Metro items. I actually don't see a way to only search for Metro apps from that list.

Try opening the charms menu, and choosing to search, then choose "Apps". Are you only seeing Metro apps?

Re:I Wonder?

[hairyfeet]

Did you run a test on the hardware? Because i have seen an install puke (Not a Vista to 7 upgrade, both other OS installs) when it hits a bad sector on the drive or has a bad bit of RAM and you'd be surprised how often a problem like that can allow the machine to run for ages until you hit just the right conditions to trigger the problem. Had to change out the CPU in my former landlady's PC once because when she would launch her email it would BSOD but ONLY on email. Ran a CPU test and sure enough it was throwing errors but for some reason it just never threw enough errors to crash the system EXCEPT when she launched her email. Its weird but you work on PCs long enough you'll see anything at least once.

So I don't have any doubt it puked on you, but if it were me it would drive me up a wall until I found out WHY it puked, hardware? Bad media? I would just have to know what caused the freak out before i could let it go. Heck I had one customer whose desktop would crash every 3 to 5 hours on the dot, drove me nuts as it wouldn't do it for me so I had him write down everything he did from the time it was turned on...the culprit? It turned out he watched a lot of videos and his GPU would get dodgy when the hardware acceleration heated it up, since I wasn't watching videos on a customer's PC I never heated it enough to cause the problem.

Re:I Wonder?

[hantms]

Incidentally, I still cant figure out where Im supposed to go to launch non-pinned non-metro apps. Hooray for useability!

To launch non-pinned legacy apps, you either just start typing the name (that was also supported in Win 7) after hitting the Windows key to open the start screen, or you go to 'All Apps', which means swiping up (or right-clicking) and hitting 'All Apps'.

Not sure why you would ever un-pin an app from the start screen though. That's the same as removing it from your Start Menu's 'All Programs' list in Win 7. Nobody does that unless they were actively (and ineffectively) trying to hide an app.

Re:I Wonder?

[hantms]

That way there's no cognitive effort when switching between your phone and your desktop.

I'm looking forward to the Microsoft car, which will have a bicycle seat and controls.

And swipe up to brake.

They do have a tendency to hide some of the most used functions, requiring a swipe.. (Move message in the mail app comes to mind)

Re:I Wonder?

[hantms]

You see, you're not supposed to use a keyboard or mouse to interface with your Windows 8 desktop/laptop. You're supposed to use your Windows 8 Phone, connected to your desktop/laptop, as your interface. Your Windows 8 Phone is the keyboard and mouse.

That statement makes no sense at all. Who told you that? AND it gets modded up to interesting?

(Well it IS interesting I suppose, just no relation to anything in the real world.)

But yes, the mouse is clearly a thing of the past in the Windows world. Using a mouse with Win 8 is similar to trying to only manage with a keyboard in Win 3.1.. sure it works, but you can't help but notice that you're doing the equivalent of eating soup with chopsticks.

It's designed for touch, with productivity / text entry happenign the usual way with a physical keybaord.

Re:I Wonder?

[linuxgeek64]

Start screen --> app bar --> all apps

Re:I Wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

but the problem is you get Metro going MEESA IMPORTANT LOOK AT MEES NOWZ!!! every five minutes or so

I don't understand what you're talking about, I don't get any fullscreen notifications.

Re:I Wonder?

[clarkn0va]

At the time I just chalked it up to bad tools and moved on. Three years on the customer continues to use the same Windows 7 install with no complaint.

Re:I Wonder?

[hairyfeet]

Well like I said maybe he or she isn't hitting the exact conditions that caused the bug. Look at the Phenom I TLB bug, everybody had a fit about that but I sold those chips like mad because in my own tests doing average jobs frankly you'd have better odds hitting the powerball than hitting the TLB bug, and this was with a known issue. You work in a PC shop long enough and you see everything at least once, I have seen systems with a bad RAM stick or spotty hard drive run for years because what the user was doing just wasn't tripping over the bad place, then they happen to do that one task that hits the bad part and it falls down like a house of cards. Its weird but it happens which is why i was curious if you found out what caused it to choke.

Re:I Wonder?

[clarkn0va]

Haven't seen a problem with this system since, nor do I recall the specifics of the error today, just that the upgrade process failed at some point after Win7 was installed, but before user files were restored. In fact, I don't specifically remember running the upgrade adviser at the time, so all the interesting details are lost at this point.

Re:I Wonder?

[xkpe]

I don't think that's what GP meant.
In my experience with windows 8 the metro panel gets cluttered with all sorts of files from installed apps.

I really don't like Windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

I really don't like Windows 8. No one can tell me relevant advantages about Windows 8, it has new problems and the interface s.ucks.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[jones_supa]

There are few advantages, such as minor performance improvements and some of the Metro apps are actually quite nice for a notebook or tablet: IE10, Windows Mail, the 3rd party Wikipedia and Khan Academy apps. That being said, I felt that the constant flicking through Start screen, Desktop and Metro apps was ultimately rather painful. They really are like two worlds that don't integrate at all. Also, the graphics are crappy. You could say it is minimalism, but I see it just as having no style at all. Just look at the startup logo or the volume indicator popup as examples. As a little side issue, I experienced audio buffer underruns which does not happen under Win7 with the same laptop.

For a Joe Sixpack machine, I suppose Win8 is just fine. For a power user desktop, it's a turd.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[H0p313ss]

For a Joe Sixpack machine, I suppose Win8 is just fine. For a power user desktop, it's a turd.

I wouldn't say a turd, but it's certainly not aimed at power users. If Joe Sixpack and his woman spend all their time in Facebook and Hotmail it might just be the best thing since Spiced Ham.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[Lumpy]

Then why buy an overpriced turd machine with Win8? A $199 Chromebook will be better for them.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[StormyWeather]

so as a power user you actually navigate to what you want to run instead of just hitting the windows key types the first few letters of the app and hitting enter?

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

No, as a power user I run more than one thing at a time. Let me give you a simple example. For several years I have used Windows 7 and done this simple thing: Watch a webcast from a site like twit.tv and play a game of freecell while watching it. This worked great on Windows 7. On Windows 8, Freecell is not built int - but you can get it free from MS in their Windows Store. It is a huge (196 MB) download, but it installs fine. Every time you launch it, it asks you to sign in to xbox live (I guess MS forgot that solitaire means "alone"). There is no setting to make it stop asking. Then, it is FULL SCREEN. On my 27 inch monitor. There is no way to make it anything but either 100% or 80% (with that Metro Snap thing where you can put a tiny strip of a second metro app up next to it). No webcast I have seen fits in the 20% space without being too tiny to watch. So that simple workflow: watch a webcast while playing freecell no longer works unless you hook up a second monitor. I've been using Windows 8 as my primary OS for 9 months now and I still hate it. Whoever thought that apps should always be full screen on large monitors is an idiot.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Are you saying you can't do that on win7 because i can on win7 home basic ... winkey fire enter = firefox, stea = steam etc

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is, this would have been a good idea 15 years ago, when we started training everyone to be power users.
Now everyone is trained in the windows method, microsoft has had to go and changed the whole lot. This is not good for microsoft, as the reason business kept using microsoft was that people didn't need to be retrained and old software tended to work.
If everyone has to be retrained from XP/win7 to win8, and legacy apps don't work, how many business will ask "what else is availiable?"
If you have to rebuy, retrain, and reprogram anyway, why stick with a system that is proven to require this?

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

So as a power user, the only game you can play is Free Cell in metro?

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[MightyYar]

It was an example. What happens when you want to run a program and it is only available in metro? Drag and drop to Word? Nope.

Here's another example. I often have documentation opened up in a PDF reader while I program. I alt-tab back and forth. Windows comes with a PDF reader, but it runs in Metro-land. Metro land automatically closes applications when it decides you are done with them, including my documentation. Oh, well, back to a Desktop-land PDF app.

It's just a pain in the ass for no good reason.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[MacGyver2210]

No, not quite.

A turd implies some sort of cohesion. This is more like pure liquid diarrhea.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[timeOday]

You had me at "Freecell is a 196 MB download."

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[jones_supa]

so as a power user you actually navigate to what you want to run instead of just hitting the windows key types the first few letters of the app and hitting enter?

You can do exactly the same in Windows 7, and for that purpose the small Start menu is still nicer to use than the full screen one.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that "training" here is a15 minute tutorial. If I can't turn a windows xp/7 power user into a win 8 user in 15 minutes then they are barely competent to begin with. (That said, I had to teach my ex-wife how to multi-select yesterday....)

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[shutdown -p now]

Metro land automatically closes applications when it decides you are done with them, including my documentation.

It doesn't close them, it suspends them. When they resume, they're supposed to restore their state to exactly what it was when they were suspended. Same as iOS and Android app life cycle, more or less.

If some app doesn't do this for you, and silently loses state when you switch away from it and back, then that's a bug in the app. If that happens in the PDF reader app that ships in the box, then that's a Windows bug, since the app is a part of Windows.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[MightyYar]

Well, then when they are "suspending" they are disappearing from Alt-Tab.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[MightyYar]

I found the documentation here:

But Windows can also terminate a suspended app at any time to free up memory for other apps or to save power. When your app is terminated, it stops running and is unloaded from memory.

So I'm not crazy :)

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[shutdown -p now]

They shouldn't. If an app does that, then it crashed upon suspending (which would also explain why the state is reset when you relaunch it). Definitely a bug.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[shutdown -p now]

No, you're not crazy. But, as described on that page, suspending is not something that "just happens" to an app. It gets the corresponding event, and it gets some time to put things in order and save the state; and when it's resumed, it again gets an event to know to restore the state.

Re:I really don't like Windows 8

[MightyYar]

Right, the problem is that sometimes I'm keeping an app open for reference, like a PDF or a web site with the command reference. Then, it auto quits and no longer shows up in Alt-Tab, so I have to go back to the start menu again to get it to fire back up.

It is a colossal PITA - enough so that I decided to stop trying to use Metro for things that need to stay open. I reverted to a Desktop-based PDF reader. The built-in email app does the same thing, only it doesn't suspend properly so if you were drafting an email it brings you back to your inbox when you resume. Gah.

Good going

[cognoscentus]

39% market share ain't bad at all for a nearly twelve year old OS. Glad to see that a superior product (albeit rather bloated by default) has already overtaken it though.

Re:Good going

[MacGyver2210]

10 minutes, msconfig, and task manager, and you will be back to a non-bloated 12-year-old powerhouse.

Photoshop angry birds

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally!
I can Photoshop Angry Birds! You don't know how I've been missing the feature to be able to run Angry Birds AND full blown photoshop, and all for the bargain price of $999.99!

Plus I get to use Active Directory, letting me leverage my work network for printing out all those Word documents on the exciting ribbon interface.

Sometimes on a cold morning, I miss the warmth of a Pentium, I'd sacrifice some of my battery to make, say, some sort of leg warmer, maybe even with a fan to blow the warm air! If only somebody would make me one of those tablet thingies with a lap warmer, I'd be happy!

Re:Photoshop angry birds

[Drakonblayde]

Your enthusiasm has convinced me, even if I still harbor doubts as to your sincerity! I must have one of these things as well!

Re:Photoshop angry birds

[Anonymous Coward]

I can Photoshop Angry Birds! You don't know how I've been missing the feature to be able to run Angry Birds AND full blown photoshop, and all for the bargain price of $999.99!

Speaking as someone who has desktop linux and Eclipse installed on a SGS3, I missed the humor. I was going to point out Angry Birds is available in an HTML5 version for desktops already.

WinXP and FLP live on...

[bmo]

...in virtual machines, because honestly, everything Vista and above is so freakin' huge.

And to what benefit all that resource suckage adds up to, I'm still not sure.

--
BMO

Re:WinXP and FLP live on...

[Anonymous Coward]

Also thanks to this little open source effort.

Re:WinXP and FLP live on...

[gagol]

And to what benefit all that resource suckage adds up to, I'm still not sure.

-- BMO

I like to believe it benefits storage vendors...

Re:WinXP and FLP live on...

[MacGyver2210]

And RAM vendors, and Intel/AMD...though not as much AMD lately.

Our way or the FLOSS way

[sqrt(2)]

I support a lot of XP machines and in general the owners still love the OS because they are familiar with it. It's going to be around for a long, long time. I predict marketshare will continue dropping as it has until it reaches about 10% where it'll stabilize for a couple years despite being completely unsupported, losing perhaps 1-2% per year after that until completely dropping off the radar.

MS is in a unique position with their OS because in general all new PCs ship with the newest version of Windows. So they can force Windows 8 into the market just by refusing to license it to OEMs for default installs and then waiting long enough for consumers to upgrade their hardware. That takes years, but as we saw with Windows 7 it's a predictable and regular process.

The only question is, will MS stick to their guns and force this paradigm shift, or will they relent like they did with Vista and make Windows 8 a short-lived intermediate OS for whatever comes next? Maybe the next version of Windows will see a return to a more classic desktop paradigm similar to Windows 7, with metro being entirely optional. Maybe the next version will split into two, metro being aimed at consumer and tablet hardware and a Windows 7 style OS to keep corporate users happy. Sadly, I think the most likely outcome will be the first one. MS isn't going to relent. This is what they want their OS to be and that's the last word. "Corporate world, you better get used to it. You know you can't ditch Windows, Office, and Exchange." They're betting on the pain of switching to Linux or OS X (which strangely could now provide a more familiar experience to Windows users than MS's newest offering) being worse than the pain of learning this new family of software. And I think they'll get away with it just by shear momentum. To hurry adoption along even more I expect them to be more aggressive with Windows 7's EOL schedule than they were with XP, which was generous to start and then extended.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[bogaboga]

To hurry adoption along even more I expect them to be more aggressive with Windows 7's EOL schedule than they were with XP, which was generous to start and then extended.

Here's what they'll do:

Announce a critical "newly discovered" bug in Windows XP whose only remedy is one of the following: -

(1) Upgrade to the newest and greatest OS,
(2) Take the system offline, or
(3) Run an update, which degrades previously running applications.

They will add that option 1 is the safest. When this happens, all those 10% remaining holdouts will `toe the line`, so to speak.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

I'd find it rather odd if either Apple or MS put much more effort into the classic desktop, they'd be going against progress and the market. Whether you like it or not, the classic desktop is magnitudes more difficult to operate for the vast majority of humans than the task-based interfaces we're getting with touch devices. I just don't see a file-based system having a future in any major OS other than Linux. We're on the verge of AI based agents being a common interface using natural language processing and this will be even easier to use, which means complex file-based systems will look even more ancient and complex for someone used to just speaking to a computer (See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kTVZiJ3Uc)

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[dbIII]

A few weeks ago I upgraded a guy that was on XP with the Win2k style desktop theme to Win7 with the Win2k style desktop theme. While a few things have moved he's using it about the same way he used XP, and he was already on the "ribbon" version of MS Office.
Going from a hard drive made in 2006 to a SSD may have made up for any annoyance about differences :)

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[digitalchinky]

You have a source for your claim that the classic desktop is magnitudes more difficult to operate? From my purview, which is no different than yours, the world wants their old interface back, be that classic Gnome or Windows. A vast generalization, but the desktop PC creates, the future you imagine involves consumption and finding abstract buzzwords to describe the same old file system that'll be with us for a few more decades yet.

Get back to me when you have an AI agent that can facilitate writing code more accurately and faster than I can type it.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[kestasjk]

Speaking your commands is definitely the way of the future, but I think they also need to make the window manager 3D if they want to stay ahead of the game.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Kjella]

The only question is, will MS stick to their guns and force this paradigm shift, or will they relent like they did with Vista and make Windows 8 a short-lived intermediate OS for whatever comes next?

How did Microsoft in any way "relent" with Vista? It was their leading platform for 2.5 years and people were refusing to upgrade from 5+ year old XP installs. If people act in the same way towards Win8 their sales will be weak for many years until they can finally push Win7 so 2015-2020 or so.

To hurry adoption along even more I expect them to be more aggressive with Windows 7's EOL schedule than they were with XP, which was generous to start and then extended.

The end of sales date is not set, but the EOL dates for Win7 are:
Mainstream support: January 12, 2015
Extended support: January 14, 2020

Anyway, their extension was actually pretty much according to their stated support policy:

Mainstream Support for Business and Developer products will be provided for 5 years or for 2 years after the successor product (N+1) is released, whichever is longer. Microsoft will also provide Extended Support for the 5 years following Mainstream support or for 2 years after the second successor product (N+2) is released, whichever is longer.

For some reason Windows goes under this clause with extended support, even the home versions of XP, Vista and Win7. Since Vista was not released until January 30, 2007 the mainstream support must be at least to January 30, 2009 and the extended support then to January 30, 2014. The actual date is in April 2014. So it's not kindness from Microsoft, it's following their own stated policy.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, not!
There already is an appreciable fraction of those remaining XP installs that have stuck to SP2 or lower, either because they have a pirated serial number that cannot install SP3 or because the owner heard that SP3 causes problems so you better not install it.
Do you think they care if they are rooted?
The computer is just an appliance for them, and budget precludes buying a new one whenever Microsoft likes them to.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

From my view the world is using smartphones, and hence task-based OS, much more than file-based. Perhaps you hang around too many other IT enthusiasts rather than an array of backgrounds? Sure it could be the same old file system, but the overlaying interface won't be the same old file-based view.

Where did I say anything about coding? I'm a developer and I know I'll be one of the last to abandon the desktop because it's the only one I know how to code on. The vast majority are consumers not creators, you should keep that in mind.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[jones_supa]

It's just that using the Windows 2000 theme turns off desktop compositing.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[jbolden]

I don't think they will relent. They absolutely positively must have a system capable of operating in the new form factors like tablets and phones. If they didn't sell a single license during all of 2013 it would be worth it to force the paradigm shift.

Further Windows 8 on Windows 8 hardware is good and people like it. So there is no reason to relent. The pain so far is:

a) You have to (really should) replace your hardware
b) You have to change multiple application workflows.

For Small Business / consumers changing hardware and changing OS are the same thing so (a) isn't a problem. While for enterprise desktops aren't a huge percentage of expenses. (b) is an issue but switching to Linux or OSX is going to be more traumatic, most likely.

I don't know if they EOL Windows 7 when. Windows 7 for enterprise, Windows 8 for SB / Cons is a nice line up. They enterprise side is not in as much danger of being disrupted by iOS and Android so they can afford to more slowly.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[jbolden]

He's right. Computer literacy has been dropping for about a decade now among kids. The accumulated historical traditions is getting too much for kids to adapt to.

Take your filesystem. The application / open / use / save / close motif is great for dual floppy. It is a terrible paradigm for single SSD. The majority of people don't understand that filesystem is a "where" type question. I can't understand how that's possible but yes the poster is right, people suck at traditional desktops and the problem is getting worse each year as the young are more distant from the system for which are paradigms are designed.

In terms of what is underneath the interface, I suspect that we are going to move towards database filesystem like you have on minis and mainframes and away from the filesystem being as naive as it is.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Luckyo]

I'm betting a fad wad of cash that very few of them are rooted in the grand scheme of things. I had an XP machine that couldn't update to SP1 (installer always crashed, as did windows update for some reason) so no updates, not even critical ones.

I ran that machine for over two years. Sane software firewall with tight rule set and constant updates, antivirus, browser, mail client, irc client, games, office suite, etc and user that doesn't download porn as executables. Apparently it didn't matter one bit that OS didn't get any critical updates for years, in spite of being on a public fixed IP address.

At some point I finally broke and got a slipstreamed SP2 torrent off piratebay eventually and installed it with my key. Worked fine and I could update. Funnily, I forgot to unplug it from network when installing it, so it got rooted within about a minute of finishing installation (it was on fixed public and open IP address). By the time I had installed firefox, which was among the first things to get into the machine after drivers, it opened a shitload of advert windows for porn, gambling and so on. Which pretty much spelled out to me what happened.

So I re-formatted the drive, unplugged the ethernet cable, reinstalled windows, installed my good old firewall with same rule set as the vanilla XP machine. Then just did the updates. No problems since. The damn thing is still trucking, through I gave it to my parents.

I am willing to bet people like me are plentiful, and pirated or not, OS itself doesn't need even critical updates if firewall is functional and has a sane ruleset, browser and other software that you actually allow into the internet is updated and you don't do stupid shit like download executables called "awesome porn.exe"

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Luckyo]

The reason for this is exceptionally small screens on these devices, that do not allow for efficient multitasking.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[MacGyver2210]

Never going to happen. I have a copy of XP that I have been using for nigh a decade, and I don't plan to stop over some bogus 'gotcha' bug. I might be one of the few people who actually reads the hotfix and patch/upgrade notes before just blindly accepting Windows Updates suggestions, but I can tell when it's a nonsense update and I have rejected quite a few in the last 8-10 years because they didn't seem necessary.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[b4dc0d3r]

You're asking the wrong question.

The only question is, will MS stick to their guns and force this paradigm shift, or will they relent like they did with Vista and make Windows 8 a short-lived intermediate OS for whatever comes next?

MS has already announced plans to merge the desktop and phone SDKs (with little detail on exactly what that means). And, plans to do yearly releases like Apple does, for a minor upgrade fee.

If developers refuse to make Metro versions of their apps, the desktop will stay around. I can think of only a handful of apps that require a desktop mode - development environments being the biggest. Possibly finance related apps like QuickBooks and Excel. And if it's still available in the background, a gesture-interfaced Photoshop Metro is entirely plausible. Difficult due to the huge number of menu options available, but it could be done well.

So the question becomes, how many app developers will see the need for desktop mode for themselves, but make Metro apps? And then, will Microsoft branch an SDK OS for development, and a user OS for the general public?

Tablets and netbooks are all the rage, and Apple has changed course to supporting it. General usage of tablets and smart phones will make Surface/Metro make sense to most people, eventually.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[0123456]

Tablets and netbooks are all the rage, and Apple has changed course to supporting it.

So why, in real life, do I see hundreds of times as many desktop systems and full-size laptops as tablets and netbooks?

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like an uncracked copy since Windows Updates is avoided by pirates due to anti-piracy updates.
For the minority in that situation using it as a home OS, I am marveled that MS never killed the activation servers to force adoption of Vista, especially with how badly they wanted people to buy it. I always thought that MS would pounce at the newly implemented opportunity to killswitch legit re-installs with some error saying that your license to Windows must be upgraded by a new purchase. Surely, their low-key rental-OS trials in small parts of the world will try and fix the current "lenient" model in their favor sooner or later.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Anonymous Coward]

Young people aren't the worst part --they at least have hope of learning through their obligatory educational system. What has dashed my hopes is how as a volunteer tutor the filesystem has been impossible for my elderly family and friends to grasp. Only my father succeeded, given his affinity for science and logic.

I've since done countless one-on-one for emails and facebook uploads, but my 3 other pupils in their sixties can't handle a simple file attachment after years of effort, even with clearly written instructions. I find it annoying that they want auto-uploader tools or smartphone GUIs, because the second they're deprived of them, they must call me for support. I've made it a point that I'm not helping those who refuse to learn. Crunchtime does not count as a learning experience, so person X having an resume emergency right now will pretend to care but never learn where "My Documents" is to look at it on their own. So "youngsters" are the ones actually learning about the filesystem on their own and helping perpetuate the willful ignorance of our elders by being available during their self-inflicted crunchtimes.

The worst part is that nobody wants to go to specialized schools, and elders can't be expected to learn by osmosis if they never have to touch a PC at work. They also won't have obligatory schooling, feel ashamed or too proud for taking courses with adult strangers. They also are impossible to "threaten" to learn, which we easily do for our youngsters' good successfully all the time. At some point humanity began hating the CONCEPT of voluntary education beyond mandatory schooling. Because after highschool you can just make money and pay someone else, or hit people up for favors for anything you can not be bothered to learn.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Anonymous Coward]

My tin-foil hat tells me they will coordinate with FBI, NSA, DHS, CIA, and other three-letter agencies to introduce a worm (Blaster to force service pack adoption?) that only targets XP/Vista/7 and cannot be stopped (via colusion with AV vendors).

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Billly Gates]

Go to an airport or college campus? Real people and business travelers are switching. The office is very outdated an authoritarian and is conservative. THey are always last to adopt and even they are changing slowly with BYOD and netbooks for the sales team and executives.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[couchslug]

"or will they relent like they did with Vista and make Windows 8 a short-lived intermediate OS for whatever comes next?"

Vista DID sell a lot of PCs when 7 came out. Might be a new marketing strategy...

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

I think it's more from the simplification but let's say your right then the small screen still has a big future to play thanks to augmented reality. AR which will be controlled via the user's smartphone, which is a task-based interface.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Luckyo]

Anyone who thinks AR is going to flourish on the small screen in the future needs to have their heads checked. Their disconnection with reality combined with blind belief in marketing is astounding.

The place where AR may indeed flourish is some sort of a HUD, like google glass. Small screen AR interfaces are usually just toys, because they're actually quite uncomfortable to use.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

That HUD in google glass isn't a small screen!?

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

Oh and you completely missed the part where the small screen of the smartphone will still be the primary control mechanism of AR. I too believe that AR will flourish as a HUD, in fact I hold that be the end of the decade it'll experience a growth beyond what smartphones achieved and be the fastest technology yet to reach mainstream usage thanks mostly to it's low cost as it piggybacks off more expensive smart phones.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Luckyo]

Nope, it's a projected HUD. Current generations of smartphones, which is what you referenced are small screens.

Let's not be obtuse.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Luckyo]

Current small screen smartphone can be the primary control mechanism for a movie theatre projector through HDMI interface, feeding 1080p video.

Did you have a point there?

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

Well if you were keeping track of our conversation, it was that task-based interfaces, aka the smart phone, are surpassing file-based interfaces in the mainstream.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

Err wouldn't you be the one being obtuse? That projection has to hit something.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

> small screen still has a big future to play thanks to augmented reality. AR which will be controlled via the user's smartphone....

Hmm, nope, didn't reference small screens being USED in AR devices. We're not going to overlap the real world via camera feed onto a "small opaque screen". I guess I should have assumed less.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

I guess you would then use my next reply that does say google glass isn't a small screen, so now we can skip this line of conversation and get back to the original argument of file-based vs task-based.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Luckyo]

Correct, and these are functional only on small screens. HUDs are generally build with multiple simultaneous functions of completely different nature (i.e. applications).

One of the biggest promised features on F-35's HMD for example is the enhanced replication of multi-functional display system from current fighter interface. Because when you project across entire field of vision, you can fit a lot of stuff in. On the other hand, when you're displaying on small smartphone that doesn't even fill tenth of person's vision's focus, yeah. No go.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Luckyo]

Yes, like a huge display that covers nearly 100% of person's field of view (from person's point of view) in front of him?

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

The Oculus Rift has a 5.5" screen covering almost the entire person's field of view, they even mentioned last week to backers that they upgraded to a 7" screen (due to their original screen no longer being available) but it would only result in a negligible increased FOV. Seems to me we'll be concentrating on smaller and higher res screens as we reach for getting AR/VR in contact lenses.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Tagged_84]

But why would we be going back to moving files and folders with these HUDs? I just don't see the logic in it. The smartphone won't be displaced for AR until we get neural interfaces working and I can't see consumers wanting to remember where they put a file rather than the computer/AI keeping track based on context so a user only has to think of a task.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Luckyo]

if humans had field of vision that could be filled with a 5.5" object that's not stuck right in their faces, we'd be extinct long ago.

Re:Our way or the FLOSS way

[Luckyo]

Efficiency.

The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[ndogg]

8?

Truly, 2013 will be the year of the Linux desktop!

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me know when Ubuntu can do something simple like change the amount of lines scrolled with the mouse wheel.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux already exists and thrives on over 100 million smartphones/tablets. Game. Set. Match.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

8?

Truly, 2013 will be the year of the Linux desktop!

or the year of no desktop ? Both Intel & MS have abandoned the desktop. Android (Linux under the hood) has won on the current hot platform (smartphone) & apparently the next predicted hot platform (Vusix / Google Glass).

Disclaimer: I am an MVP with 15 years experience of software engineering skills wasted on MS products going down the toilet.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[lannocc]

Each application captures the scroll events and handles them on their own. There is no system-wide setting. Perhaps a hardware abstraction layer could be written.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Teun]

Ubuntu offers a fully configurable experience in the KDE desktop, just an apt-get away!

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[bmo]

>Let me know when Ubuntu can do something simple like change the amount of lines scrolled with the mouse wheel.

http://i.imgur.com/tfca6.png

Look how silly you are. Look.

--
BMO

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me know when zoom using the scroll wheel can be made to work in Autocad on Winodws 7 Dell laptops, without (regularly) disabling the scroll-bars.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[kestasjk]

Pfft.. 2013 is the year when Windows RT/8 on Surface will force Linux to retreat out of tablets/smartphones and back onto Chinese "smart-fridge" interfaces and escalator firmware where it belongs.

Disclaimer: I am a Red Hat Certified consultant with 20 years UNIX experience looking on in terror as Microsoft renders my life obsolete.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[jones_supa]

Let me know when Ubuntu can do something simple like change the amount of lines scrolled with the mouse wheel.

KDE allows configuring this.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[jones_supa]

He was talking about the year of Linux desktop. The Linux kernel has been doing fine for a decade and is widespread on various embedded devices. And the kernel itself is not anymore a bottleneck to build an awesome desktop upon, either. It's all about the GUI stuff on top of it now.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Lumpy]

Let me know when windows can do the same. Because under windows 8 that behavior is NOT consistant.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Lumpy]

Why would you want to use a desktop? You either use a tablet or a workstation. the desktop is dead.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

That reminds me of my favorite Windows gripe, having to specifically focus a GUI element with a mouse click before I can scroll it with my mouse-wheel..

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, Windows 7 is the new XP. Just add 10 years.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[LinuxIsGarbage]

Let me know when zoom using the scroll wheel can be made to work in Autocad on Winodws 7 Dell laptops, without (regularly) disabling the scroll-bars.

Assuming you're trying to zoom/scroll using the touchpad, this is a problem I've fought with the Synaptics driver for years. I came across this solution:
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1524405

Where using

taskkill /im SynTPEnh.exe

added to startup fixes the problem.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

The desktop is dead? Nope, not at all. That's a lie spread by Anti-Microsoft trolls and FOSS zealots. Tablets and smartphones are a welcome accessory, but the desktop will be with us for a long, long time. You're likely to be dead before the desktop is.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

>Let me know when Ubuntu can do something simple like change the amount of lines scrolled with the mouse wheel.

http://i.imgur.com/tfca6.png

Isn't that for KDE only?

By default Ubuntu and most Linux distros I used definitely don't have that.

Re:The Linux desktop beating Windows...

[bmo]

> Linux distros I used definitely don't have that.

Then it's time to stop faffing around with shitty non-configurable desktop environments and sudo apt-get install kde-full in Ubuntu.

Linux is about choices. Make them instead of whining.

--
BMO

You've never tried Windows 8 then

[Sycraft-fu]

It works quite well in 512MB in a VM. Try it on a hypervisor that can do dynamic memory some time (Hyper-V and ESX can). Set it to 512MB minimum and a plenty high max. Fire it up, watch it drop to 512MB used.

Also if you are planning on using XP in VMs you'd better either plan on taking them off the net or plan on moving to something else since support for it ends in 2014 and running a networked OS that doesn't get patches is a bad idea.

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[bmo]

Well, that's the advantage of virtual machines.

Severe bondage and discipline for Windows OSes with no safeword.

--
BMO

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[dbIII]

Just put it under the adult supervision of an OS that can handle networking properly (with the right firewall settings this can be a recent one from Microsoft), or have one between you and the internet. If the application that you are bothering to run the WM with XP on it for doesn't even look out on the network it's a non-issue anyway. It's not as if people are going to be using IE6 or some elder horror as their main web browser.

About all I can see these things communicating with is some network drive shares. After all, the point of running a legacy OS in a VM is to run legacy software that won't work on Win7. Thanks to DLL hell and various other annoyances there is plenty, especially Visual Basic stuff or things designed to get the moving target of MS Office to do the heavy lifting. Most of it could be argued as not being Microsoft's fault and due to third party software that is really utter crap even if it gets the job done, but I'm not looking to blame, I'm just rambling about some situations where XP (or Win2k) in a VM makes sense and network security can be handled externally.

At one point I was trying to run something in an old version of Solaris (SunOS5.5!) on Sparc in a VM on x86 via an emulator - lots of things would run but not the legacy app. Sometimes it's worth giving up, shelling out for the cheapest hardware that will run the app, and just letting a dedicated machine do the job. In that case Solaris10 on Sparc with zones did the job a hell of a lot better than a VM would - sometimes a virtual machine is just a hack for when your operating system is not mature enough to be able to properly separate things and can't be tweaked to provide true backwards compatibility without breaking current applications. The abandonware in question (from back before a simple vector graphics print spooler app was rewritten around a database and the rewrite was never really completed), THINKS it's running in SunOS5.5 with the hostid of a computer built in 1992, but it's really running on something that is now doing other stuff in Solaris10 and just has that app running in a zone thinking it's on SunOS5.5. Solaris11 can do the same thing but I set that box up before it came out.

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[Anonymous Coward]

512MB? Are you fucking kidding me?
A updated XP SP3 with default services running idles at < 100MB...

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[Archimonde]

If it runs so well, how do you explain that those metro programs are total pigs in terms of running them? I have a fairly fast computer with SSD and even microsoft's metro apps take 10 seconds to open. On the same computer, photoshop takes 3.5 seconds to open. It just painful to watch those those full screen loading screens for applications which are gui-wise not much complex than win3.1 programs.
 

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[MMC Monster]

Off the net is perfectly fine for some of us.

I run Win2K in a VM to run those rare MSWindows-only applications. They may dial up to get updates, but they're effectively behind a couple NATs so I'm not expecting them to get infected.

And if they do get infected, just reimage it.

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[WD]

It works quite well in 512MB in a VM. Try it on a hypervisor that can do dynamic memory some time (Hyper-V and ESX can). Set it to 512MB minimum and a plenty high max.

So what you're saying is that it does not work with 512MB?

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[MacGyver2210]

Set it to 512MB minimum and a plenty high max. Fire it up, watch it drop to 512MB used.

I did try Win8 on a VM. The simple fact is, it's slow as shit. I did as you said, and tried setting it to a 512MB minimum. The only time it ran at 512MB was when I wasn't using it, when I had switched to something outside the VM with nothing running under 8. As soon as I even moused over something in the Win 8 VM the RAM usage skyrocketed to about 800MB. Then, when I launched Notepad, it went over a gig.

Not sure how that is as efficient, considering on XP I can open a web browser and still sit under 400MB while using it.

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[Anonymous Coward]

My Ubuntu 12.04 with all updates (except the latest distro) currently runs at ~250MB of ram. That's with no swap file either. How can Win8 be such a pig??

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironically, the problem here is too many "layers"... and not Photoshop ones. Speed is one of the prices to pay to load whatever Java-like, relatively unoptimized environment for the apps.

MS is never happy to just do plain old native Win32 code anymore, as we could see with their desperate launch of Dot Net and C#. For a quick case study on how inefficient things are despite the expected obligatory maturity of code, let's visit Windows Sidebar, shall we?

It's old enough to have "refined" to the point of getting renamed to MS Gadgets. It first shipped with Vista in Jan 2007, virtually 6 years ago. However, even in Windows 7's supposedly enlightened and low-resource environment in comparison to Vista, the underlying sidebar.exe takes 20MB for just 4 default widgets: analog clock, calendar and 2 weather widgets. In perspective, 16MB is at least 4x > your average Windows 3 PC's total RAM allocation back in 95.

So rather than expecting Metro's slowness to be fixed by engineers, it's more likely that it must be out-hardwared. The problem is that just like you aren't expected to be running the same "fast" version of Photoshop in the future to guarantee that 3.5 seconds will get halved, you'll probably be lugging other ball and chain runtimes that they'll come up with for Windows 9, expected to be out in Fall 2013.

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[Anonymous Coward]

Definitely something wrong on your end. They open instantly on my machine.

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[KiwiSurfer]

Metro apps open in seconds for me and that's on a laptop with a 5400RPM hard drive. YMMV I guess.

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[couchslug]

"Also if you are planning on using XP in VMs you'd better either plan on taking them off the net or plan on moving to something else since support for it ends in 2014 and running a networked OS that doesn't get patches is a bad idea."

All the more reason to Snapshot those installs.

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[Anonymous Coward]

ok, then just give it 100MB minimum, then, it looks like 512 was a fairly arbitrary number.

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, don't install Win8 on your 12 year old self-built Pentium 3 that you're sill rocking as a desktop, then. herpderp.

What kind of x86-based desktop or laptop made in the past 5 years and is still functional has only 512 MB of RAM?

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[Anonymous Coward]

Fire it up, watch it drop to 512MB used.

So what you're saying is that it does not work with 512MB?

He said nothing of the sort, he said it will drop back to 512 MB used after starting. So if you have 512 MB your starts may be slower. And to say it likes to use more than 512 if available through the dynamic memory function of a hypervisor is not the same as saying it doesn't work in 512 MB.

Re:You've never tried Windows 8 then

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds more like network latency than anything else. My Photoshop load time is similar to yours, with metro apps kicking around the 1-4 second mark depending on what they are. I have a feeling many if not all contact the store in some way whilst loading.

It's just a start screen

[Anonymous Coward]

It's similar to OSX's Launchpad or even Wii's "channels". For the haters there are over 9000 start menu replacements, just like Cinnamon, MATE, LXDE, XFCE and RazorQT are replacements for Gnome3/Unity. I like Windows 8 and I'm a neckbeard who knew how to install Gentoo before it became a /g/ meme.

Vista never cracked 19% let alone challenge XP

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone truly beleive 8 is going to do much better? http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

Charmingly Simple ?

[burni2]

Hi,

just my 222 cents,

Windows NT 5.1 (or WindowsXP like most of you like to call it) has except the Luna theme many good traits from windows NT 5 (2000) which from the point of Windows XP was and is also excessivly used.

For WindowsXP it was easy to kill Windows2000 later because the people found out the ways to make it look like windows2000 and btw. they found the windowsXP "gold key" that gave them till 2-3 years ago to use the update service without installing virus infrested 40 day crack resetting tools. Well Microsoft closed that golden oportunity for a reason, to make it easier to kill windowsXP. Also the release of ServicePack 1 and later ServicePack 2 fixed many serious issues.

With Windows2000 having reached Service Pack incarnation 4 and Windows XP having reached Service Pack incarnation 3 (we should just count 1 or 2 up, because when updating from SP3 it's around 300-500 mb that equals to 2 ServicePacks)

You can now tell how hard it was for Windows 7 to battle the persitence of WindowsXP.
Windows7 gained acceptance just shortly in the corporate world, that will make Windows8 perhaps the new Windows Vista

Microsoft should go back to it's roots (Windows2k/XP)
And Linux/GUI devellopers and LibreOffice Devellopers should not jump the ribbon,
Windows2000/XP(w/o Luna) and Office 2k/XP/2k3 had from MPOV the neatest look and best working experience, except for Excel we can't have more than 16-bit rows data .. sorry Stuck in the 16-bit World.

Re:Charmingly Simple ?

[LinuxIsGarbage]

they found the windowsXP "gold key" that gave them till 2-3 years ago to use the update service without installing virus infrested 40 day crack resetting tools. Well Microsoft closed that golden oportunity for a reason, to make it easier to kill windowsXP.

XP is still a breeze to install illegitimate versions:

-Many volume keys were blacklisted, but that is easy to fix. Considering for the past 10 years almost every workplace, school, university, and public library has been running a VL version of XP, it's easy to obtain genuine VL keys.

-A tool, AntiWPA, makes it easy to install an OEM version, use an OEM-SLP key (which will never be blacklisted), and then disable activation check. Reports as genuine.

Probably Never

[Tridus]

Vista never got close, and it was because corporate users ignored it en-masse. Microsoft still counted sales because new PCs came with it, but they were immediately reimaged back to XP so never showed up in the usage stats. 7 is now passing XP because companies are now shifting to 7 (gradually). Few of them have any interest in switching to 8 due to the expense, retraining, and general lack of things making it worth doing for a large company.

On top of that, with Microsoft's new plan to go to more frequent, smaller OS updates, "8" will only be on sale for a comparatively short period of time before the next update. Are they going to call that update Windows 8? Probably not. 8's reputation isn't exactly stellar in many circles, and they can polish up the rough edges and use the update for a rebrand.

Re:Probably Never

[tompaulco]

Windows 8 is to Windows 7 as Windows Vista is to Windows XP.

Re:Probably Never

[MtViewGuy]

Actually, Windows 7 IS becoming hugely popular in the corporate world because of the reasons;

1. It's well-tried and very stable--even if it crashes, it recovers very gracefully.
2. Just about all the new commercial software out there will run under Windows 7.
3. The hardware needed to run Windows 7 in 64-bit mode is dirt-cheap nowadays.

I myself run Windows 7 with Chrome 23.0.1271.95 on my laptop and Firefox 17.0.1 on my desktop with no problems.

wtf

[trifish]

Where do those stats came from and how old are they?

Latest stats from two well-known sources show quite different numbers:

NetApplications - North America + Europe:
Win7 43%
WinXP 21%
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=10&qpaf=-000%09100%090%0DO000%09100%091%0D

Statcounter - WORLDWIDE
Win7 53%
WinXP 26%
Source: http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-201111-201211

Re:wtf

[Patch86]

RTFA. It is from NetApplications, no location filters:
http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0
Win7 = 44.71%
WinXP = 39.82%
Win Vista = 5.70%
Win8 =1.11%

Re:wtf

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares about China, India, Africa?

Re:wtf

[Anonymous Coward]

The stats reported are the average November stats from HItslink. According to Hitslink's weekly stats, Windows 8 passed 1% the first week in November. The most recent stats they have (11/25) show it at 1.27%. Statcounter largely shows the same data, but has more recent stats including post Black Friday numbers. Statcounter has W8 at 1.9% Worldwide and 3.48% for the US.

Re:wtf

[Patch86]

Yeah, who cares about half of the world's population? Who needs them as customers, anyway? Isn't it unpatriotic to sell things to non-white people, anyway?

Before anyone says "piracy", that actually makes the figures even more interesting. People who pirate software can usually be trusted to use the software they want to use- because what other motivations are there? Legitimate customers (whether consumers or companies) have other factors at play; for example, the fact that their local Best Buy now only sells Windows 8 computers means that they'll definitely be using a Windows 8 computer. If the person who is willing to steal anything can't be persuaded to "upgrade" to your newest product, you should probably worry about the appeal of your newest product.

What? XP still near 40%?

[demon driver]

After Microsoft stopped to sell it four years ago? With that-what-must-not-be-named, which was intended to widely replace it, having become available nearly five years ago from now? And with even Windows 7 now being around for more than three years?

I'd say, that's the important message behind the headline, and it's a good one, because it's continued proof that even Microsoft users, even when "the company is doing everything it can to get its users off Windows XP", as TFA says, don't eat every shit they're getting served. And, with Windows 8, there's good hope that Microsoft will be the ones who are going to choke on a new version of Windows, again.

Re:What? XP still near 40%?

[grantspassalan]

I still use windows XP to control some legacy hardware. However that old computer is not ever connected to the Internet, so it is not going to show up on surveys of net connections. It is likely that there are still quite a few computers using XP that are used to control specialized hardware which the manufacturers thereof have never updated to a more recent version of Windows or who have long gone out of business. Therefore, the number of copies of Windows XP in use could still be considerably higher than stated in the article.

Re:What? XP still near 40%?

[LinuxIsGarbage]

I still use windows XP to control some legacy hardware. However that old computer is not ever connected to the Internet, so it is not going to show up on surveys of net connections. It is likely that there are still quite a few computers using XP that are used to control specialized hardware which the manufacturers thereof have never updated to a more recent version of Windows or who have long gone out of business. Therefore, the number of copies of Windows XP in use could still be considerably higher than stated in the article.

Then there's XP Embedded. XP Embedded installations are all over the place. ATMs, Ticket Kiosks, time display screens at airports, train, and subway stations, animated ad / menu screens at fast food restaurants, and point of sale machines.

A little piece of me died at work because the migration path to replace some horribly obsolete machine control panels at work is an XP embedded machine which can run these screens using software designed for NT4, though the software is mostly 16 bit. The vendor is expecting to be able to support these for 10 years.

Re:What? XP still near 40%?

[petermgreen]

After Microsoft stopped to sell it four years ago?

Depends what you mean by "stopped to sell it"

Sure you can't buy a retail box that says "windows XP" on it or a computer whos license sticker says "windows XP" unless you find it old stock but you can still get OEM copies and volume licenses that include downgrade rights (though IIRC the OEMs are no longer allowed to sell it pre-downgraded, you have to downgrade yourself) and i'm pretty sure you can still buy XP for inclusion in embedded setups too.

Win XP is still the best

[Anonymous Coward]

Many year after first buy Window XP, I still use for playing games. It is EXCELLENT and FABULOUS. Window 8 is confuse me and have no desktop, so can't play game at all. Also, corporate softwares no work on Window 8. Must have Internet Exploring 5 to work.

Stay with Window XP forever. Micro$oft is scam. Would use Linux before use Window 8.

This post sponsored by Apple.

Re:Win XP is still the best

[Anonymous Coward]

Many year after first buy Window XP, I still use for playing games. It is EXCELLENT and FABULOUS.
I agree.

Window 8 is confuse me
I think you have bad english? Part of the problem?

  and have no desktop,
Welp English or no english, you figured it out! Bravo! Yeah let's run adobe after effects, and several "apps" and see if we can switch back and forth productivity wise. Sure that cute little girl with her dad art thing is CUTE, but it ain't reality.

so can't play game at all.
Heh I hear ya. I said that going into XP!

Also, corporate softwares no work on Window 8.
NAME NAMES. But I agree. Lexicon, dunno about ProTools (I ain't CHECKED ANYMORE, maybe they fixed it?)

  Must have Internet Exploring 5 to work.
Yeah, for some old software apps. I have one. I WILL NOT MENTION THE NAME

Stay with Window XP forever. Micro$oft is scam.
100% Correct, except in the situation with new hardware, there they have us. There is specific hardware they exploit and make it kick ass over everything else. There IS a reason windows 8 has that shit in it. It don't make it good for fuckers like us who want to produce shit

Would use Linux before use Window 8.
NAAAAAAAAAAAAA WRONG. USE WHAT WORKS FOR WHAT YOU NEED. PERIOD

This post sponsored by Apple.
Liar. But we still love you, now go comment on my FUCKING POST!!
"AS THE MOST DIEHARD XP GUY ON /." Load the comments, FIND my post and DISCUSS. GOd damn it.

Revealed to the world: It's all me

[TheRealHocusLocus]

Yes, despite not being in the IT business for years, I am the one my friends call when their desktops and laptops take 10 minutes to boot, clog up with viral effluent of try to VM-swap in too little physical memory.

But I try to head it off. Whenever I spy someone who's just acquired -- or is just starting to grapple with -- some Windows 7 or Vista computer I suggest, "hey, bring it over and I'll take a snapshot of the disk, then clean it and load XP onto it. If it doesn't work out I'll restore the image and we will at least have tried..."

About 40% of them take me up on the offer. 60% don't, and I do not hear from those again until things have gotten really out of hand. And if I had made the offer and they turned it down I'm inclined to suggest maybe it's time to invest in a new computer.

So they buy a brand new one, Windows 7/Vista raises one more point in market share, they 'donate' their old machine to me (and I slap XP on it right-quick) and all is right with the world.

Though in the years since Vista was introduced in '05, I seem to have experienced an overall 60% reduction in friends. Time to buy some more on Facebook!

Re:Revealed to the world: It's all me

[Billly Gates]

Why are you installing 11 year old operating systems that are insecure and about to loose support? Most people I know may prefer XP familiarity as it is what they know, but also are aware of its age and do not want to invest all this money in a new shiny box only to cripple it by living in the past.

Perhaps those who think like this already left XP a long time ago??

Unless they have some ancient software or need IE 6 compatibility there is no reason in 2012 and you are doing them a great diservice. I used to work part time in a computer shop in 2010 and we were all XP because we dealt with older systems and people would go big box retailer for a newer system so we dealt with re-imaged hand me downs for kids or a 2nd computer or poor folks.

Windows 7 can not take care of all of that.

As opposed to one WHICH NEEDS THEM?

[Anonymous Coward]

As opposed to running the latest OS with all the holes waiting to be discovered? All that new code, yet to be field tested, all those new holes to be tested out in the wild LIVE, with YOUR production system?

Patches are failure you know. They have unwanted side effects that break production systems. The best thing you can get is a system so thoroughly attacked that it no longer has new vulnerabilities against it that are viable. Then don't upgrade.

Re:As opposed to one WHICH NEEDS THEM?

[Alex Pennace]

Patches are failure you know. They have unwanted side effects that break production systems. The best thing you can get is a system so thoroughly attacked that it no longer has new vulnerabilities against it that are viable. Then don't upgrade.

While this theory has some merit, in the context of Windows 2000 it is not applicable. There is at least one known vulnerability in Windows 2000 that was not patched: http://securitywatch.pcmag.com/top-threat/284393-microsoft-not-patching-tcp-ip-vulnerabilities-on-windows-2000-and-xp and http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/bulletin/MS09-048#section3

Not sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

> Windows XP fell to 39.82 percent while Windows 8 jumped to 1.09 percent.

Not sure if submitter is M$ shill or sarcastic.

My 2-year old "jumps" higher than that. 8-/

Re:Not sure...

[Tridus]

It's not 1% of sales, it's 1% of traffic. Considering how massive the installed base is, 1% in a short period of time isn't bad at all.

Nobody's going to say that Windows 8 is burning up the charts at all, but it was never going to get to 10% in two months.

Re:Not sure...

[wvmarle]

1% in well over a month - and pretty much all new systems come with it (MS probably made that mandatory).

At that rate it's going to take well over three years to reach the 40% mark. Mmm... Hard to believe that over a three year period only 40% of the world's computers are being replaced. Oh well, time will tell.

Re:Not sure...

[0123456]

It's not 1% of sales, it's 1% of traffic. Considering how massive the installed base is, 1% in a short period of time isn't bad at all.

But the fanboys keep telling us what a success Windows 8 is because it sold 40 MIlLLION COPIES IN A MONTH! Either there are four billion Windows PCs in the world (possible, but seems unlikely), or few of those copies are actually installed on a real computer that people use.

Re:Not sure...

[imsabbel]

Back in 2007, there were an estimate of 1 billion Windows PCs in the world. I am pretty sure with 200 million Notebooks being sold each year (not to mention desktops, etc), this number has ince increased.

Also, if you look at the raw stats:
http://www.netmarketshare.com/report.aspx?qprid=11&qpaf=&qpcustom=Windows+8&qpcustomb=0
There is quite a curvature upwards, so maybe there is some sale to use latency?

Huh?

[QuietLagoon]

Now it's time to see how long it takes Windows 8 to succeed its predecessors.

You really need to get a life....

Market Share?

[Anonymous Coward]

Market Share =! Installed Base. I would *hope* that they SELL more Win7/8 than XP???

Monopoly at 1% after a month.

[Anonymous Coward]

The managers in charge of it should be shot. People line up in stores for days when the new Apple OS launches. The peasants basically revolt when microsoft tries to release a new OS, (hell, if I had a pitchfork, and thought I could stop Vista, et al. from being released, I'd be willing to do that literally). People would PAY to "downgrade" to XP, (and still will, if vendors played ball).

How catastrophically bad do you have to be when the OS monopoly barely scratches 1% a month after being released. Can't you see the signs, Microsoft?

On a guess?

[Anonymous Coward]

"If it runs so well, how do you explain that those metro programs are total pigs in terms of running them? I have a fairly fast computer with SSD and even microsoft's metro apps take 10 seconds to open. On the same computer, photoshop takes 3.5 seconds to open. It just painful to watch those those full screen loading screens for applications which are gui-wise not much complex than win3.1 programs." - by Archimonde (668883) on Sunday December 02, @07:09AM (#42160513) Homepage

It's like how VB apps were early on (since you noted Win3.x) - interpreted SLOW CODE showed through on those slower systems (think 386 -> 486). Later, it was much the same with JAVA driven applications.

What stopped or rather, lessened this? FASTER HARDWARE... specifically CPU's &/or memory types + better/wider busses!

In fact?

I'd say that I *think* Microsoft is betting on CPU speed increases as well as those on the memory bus (SSD's took out latencies on seek/access for loads though already), to "make up for" what you're seeing... eventually!

It's happened before as I noted above's all!

* Only a guess though!

It's just that I've seen this before, so has any "oldsters" (purely relative term here) that've seen what I described above...

APK

P.S.=> I know 1 thing though - I won't TOUCH Windows 8, personally, unless I absolutely HAVE to (I just don't like what I've been seeing & yes, I feel MS has made a mistake this round in *trying* to FORCE a phone/tablet interface onto those that use PC Desktops (bad move - folks aren't USED TO IT THERE)...

... apk

Arbitrary statistics FTW

[wonkey_monkey]

Forfty percent of all people enjoyed reading this submission.

Is that just like Windows HPC was taking over?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or how WP 7 was going to save Nokia?

Or how MS Server xxxx is going to take over Google?

Or how MS desktops are taking over Germany?

Maybe it has something to do with the 25% loss MS is having in sales... along with a 15-20% TCO cost increase.

Old news

[kenh]

The report is from September of the August results - last I looked it is now December.

Also, why wasn't Linux even given passing mention? Has it's market share been reduced to a mere rounding error?

Re:Old news

[graphius]

Funny that Linux has higher market share than Win8.

so

[CHRONOSS2008]

a russian tank with a cat seat

Re:so

[Alex Belits]

...would still beat Georgia.

just bought new pc

[CHRONOSS2008]

made sure win 7 64 bit was on i t not win 8
in fact i stayed right clear of any win 8 pc's for sale.

What's it with USA'ians and numbers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not enough to do? No sense in life? No sense of purpose?
Doesn't matter much, people will use what they have and they're comfortable with.

People still use Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought everyone is using Linux, Apple OS X Mountain Lion or Windows 7/8. Just asking. I upgraded my operating system from Windows XP to Windows 7 because some computer programs and games refuse to run on my old Windows XP computer.

Microsoft is ending support for Windows XP is on April 8, 2014.

Re:People still use Windows XP?

[Tridus]

Tons of people use XP still. Where have you been?

MyCleanPC is not a virus ... it is a SCAM

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing but fear mongering to get you yo pay for the fake cleanup.

Different use case

[graphius]

In my experience I notice most people for most situations use the mouse way more than the keyboard. They rest their right hand on the mouse, and use their left for keyboard shortcuts. For me, I only put my right hand on the keyboard when I am typing (like now).

When I am working in Photoshop (or Scribus, or Inkscape, or any graphic program) I use a stylus on my Wacom tablet along with keyboard shortcuts. I still do not want a touch screen for the simple reason that I want to see the screen as I am working. I do not want to block the screen with my hand.

Even much of the time when surfing the net I use bookmarks and links way more than typing addresses...

Re:Different use case

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not want to block the screen with my hand.

A 3D user interface (holograms or something?) could solve that problem. Or a touchscreen that you operate from the back side, instead of front side. The current touch screens are just one point in the evolution of the user interfaces. Keyboard most likely stays in one form or other. Mouse might get replaced, but obviously not by touchscreens.

Re:Windows 7 had 400% more users

[Billly Gates]

More data that shows now vs 2009 from statcounter.

However what is diferent is many of these users were running Windows 7 6 months or more before release as Microsoft made a deal where the RC users could purchase a permanent key and Windows Update will turn it into an OEM. BUt still no one bothered to do that with Windows 8.

There are more computers today in 2012 than 2009 as China and Eastern Europe are still buying 1st time computers compared to west where slashdotters have had them for awhile. THis also shows just how slow WIndows 8 is and how great Windows 7 was.

How are performed the statistics ?

[e70838]

All the newer computers at my society have the win7 license sticker (because new computer have that by default), but they are all reinstalled with windows xp pro. I am pretty sure many societies have the same policy and are probably (I guess) not correctly counted in the statistic.

Bucking the norm

[TheRealQuestor]

In a few words, I like it. I actually like it a lot. I don't own a tablet or laptop, just a bunch of desktops, and I like it. Do I care for Modern UI or whatever metro is called now? No, not really. I paid the 5 bucks and bought Start8 so I don't even have to know it's even there. [yes I KNOW there are free alternatives, but free to me doesn't always equate to better]. I got used to the "no glass" aero and actually prefer it now. I find it faster and even more stable than 7 [though 7 is rock solid too so it's kind of hard to quantify that last part].

Thing is I have not been a "start menu" user for a long time. I have 3 big monitors and have always just pinned icons to my desktop of most things I use and it never clutters up my primary screen.

I also noticed something, Back when I beta tested NT4, when the beta was over I stayed running 4. When beta testing 2000 and it finished I stayed in 2000. When beta testing XP and it was over I went back to 2000. When beta testing Vista and it was over I went back to XP. When beta testing 7 and it was over I stayed in 7 and with this BS public beta testing in 8 I actually stayed in 8. So many of these self entitled cry babies killed MS beta testing. "WHERE'S MY FREE COPY BOO HOO". Anyways

8 is not a bad OS at all, and unlike Vista does not deserve the bad rap everyone is giving it. If you don't like Modern, then don't use it, it's that simple. Plenty of other good things TO like about it,

Testing with multiple users

[Kupfernigk]

So are you suggesting testing not-metro with multiple users and keeping only the ones that like it?

Who gives a fuck which WinOS is bundled?

[couchslug]

This is Slashdot. If you can't replace OS in your sleep, fucking LEARN.
(This site was once good for such things.)

Seriously. I don't give a shit what OS is on any PC I buy, because I put what I want on it and that's trivial to do as well as free. If I paid for "Windows", I feel free to drop any version on that hardware and those who disagree are welcome to devour my hot, hot shit.

So what if 8 sucks? In a few minutes you can be running something else, and should damn well know how to do that for your own benefit!

Re:Who gives a fuck which WinOS is bundled?

[mysidia]

This is Slashdot. If you can't replace OS in your sleep, fucking LEARN.

It costs money to switch to an earlier (or newer) WinOS, unless you have a Pro VL or Retail license of Windows 8 with downgrade rights.

You can't take a Windows 8 Home OEM license, and downgrade that to Windows 7, without an additional Windows 7 license, not legally anyways.

So yeah, it matters

Re:Who gives a fuck which WinOS is bundled?

[couchslug]

"not legally anyways. "

The law is by and for the masters. If you are not one there is no reason besides coercion to respect it. If you respect it, pay the fee for being a chump.

Windows 8, Just another Windows ME and Vista

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh
Windows 8 will get that same Vista 6% from the people who are forced to take it with new computers they buy and don't know how to put 7 on.

Very Cool

[elabs]

I can't wait for Windows 8 to gain more and more market share. The more market share it has the bigger the potential for app developers.

Forced to buy - later

[Anonymous Coward]

Seeing as the average computer purchaser is forced to buy a copy of MS, why should they pay to upgrade an old computer. Simply wait till it is time to upgrade computers and get the new OS then. Business models can both help and hurt.

Use compare of Win 7 to 8

[frankjg2]

I just bought a new pc with 8 on it and have been using it for 5 days. Before this I have been using 7 on my other 4 computers. It appears that Microsoft just wanted something for their people to do. After this period of time I have removed 8 and installed 7 on the new machine. 8 is just to confusing and difficult to use. I think the best comparison is Win 8 and Vista. Sorry Microsoft but Win 7 is great and easy to use.

It's called POSReady 2009.

[Anonymous Coward]

Merry Christmas:

http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/40191-Windows-Embedded-POSReady-2009

And just so you don't have to click the link (in case of non-interest):

"POSReady 2009 is pretty much a normal Windows XP Pro SP3, the only limitation I've found really is that it can't run the Office suite due to licensing limitations...

But it must be just a paper limitation, as Office 2007 Portable (created by Spoon) runs fine

Extended support until April 2019 [Mainstream support until February 2014]"

Enjoy your Windows XP with support until 2029 :)