Slashdot Mirror


A US Apple Factory May Be Robot City

dcblogs writes "Apple's planned investment of $100 million next year in a U.S. manufacturing facility is relatively small, but still important. A 2009 Apple video of its unibody manufacturing process has glimpses of highly automated robotic systems shaping the metal. In it, Jonathan Ive, Apple's senior vice president of design, described it. 'Machining enables a level of precision that is just completely unheard of in this industry,' he said. Apple has had three years to improve its manufacturing technology, and will likely rely heavily on automation to hold down labor costs, say analysts and manufacturers. Larry Sweet, the CTO of Symbotic, which makes autonomous mobile robots for use in warehouse distribution, described a possible scenario for Apple's U.S. factory. First, a robot loads the aluminum block into the robo-machine that has a range of tools for cutting and drilling shapes to produce the complex chassis as a single precision part. A robot then unloads the chassis and sends it down a production line where a series of small, high-precision, high-speed robots insert parts, secured either with snap fit, adhesive bonds, solder, and a few fasteners, such as screws. At the end, layers, such as the display and glass, are added on top and sealed in another automated operation. Finally, the product is packaged and packed into cases for shipping, again with robots. "One of the potentially significant things about the Apple announcement is it could send a message to American companies — you can do this — you can make this work here," said Robert Atkinson, president of The Information Technology & Innovation Foundation."

602 comments

  1. Automation and unemployment by Iamthecheese · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the reason it can be done in the US is automation there's very little difference in terms of employment -- The capital holders get to keep more of their capital, some Asians get fired, and very few Americans get hired.Sure the GDP will rise but that won't make the slightest difference for the unemployed.

    Robots are replacing workers everywhere and we need a new economy to deal with the situation.

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    1. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rockoon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Robots are replacing workers everywhere and we need a new economy to deal with the situation.

      ...or we need to grow the economy. Value creation isnt zero sum.

      Perhaps a little of both?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:Automation and unemployment by Iamthecheese · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The present economy is growing in leaps and bounds leaving workers in the dust. "economic growth" is a meaningless metric when productivity allows this.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    3. Re:Automation and unemployment by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Funny

      Robots are replacing workers everywhere and we need a new economy to deal with the situation.

      I suggest zombies. They're more cost-effective than robots, cheaper to replace, and on their off hours can do even more to reduce the number of unemployed.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Robots are replacing workers everywhere and we need a new economy to deal with the situation.

      Don't worry. As soon as the US robots unionize the jobs will move overseas again.

    5. Re:Automation and unemployment by artor3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Having the robot factories here is good. We can tax the owners, tax the engineers, and use the proceeds to support all the unemployed people. Automation guarantees that we will, eventually, have 50+% permanent unemployment. We'll need to transition to a socialist economy to survive, and it will help if the factories are in our backyard.

    6. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah good one... If all the robot factories are owned by few people, how will growing the economy help? We are probably less than 2 decades away from mass riots (And I only say that because I'm not an alarmist).

    7. Re:Automation and unemployment by Mr.+Tom+Guycot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We need to either drastically lower the hours for 'full time' work, while increasing wages to compensate, or stop being afraid of welfare and accept that everyone doesn't have to be employed, but still guaranteed housing, healthcare, and living expenses. The only other option is the one we're currently going down, which is that of some kind of sci fi dystopian corporate future with massive slums/even greater prison population (maybe they'll just start merging them). The other options will never fly because people are petty and will complain about someone not having to work as much as them.

      Full employment, with a living wage is just not possible anymore.

    8. Re:Automation and unemployment by c0lo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Robots are replacing workers everywhere and we need a new economy to deal with the situation.

      ...or we need to grow the economy. Value creation isnt zero sum.

      Perhaps a little of both?

      Question is: for how long?

      I mean, if the "workers" can't afford to buy the widgets, where's the growth in the economy produced by the" value creation"?
      Let me rephrase: in extreme, if there aren't any buyers, what meaning the "economy" term still retains?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    9. Re:Automation and unemployment by dadioflex · · Score: 1

      Actually it's worse than that. If US jobs that moved to China become US jobs performed by robots you have still lost the jobs and you've also lost the potential market. Those Chinese workers? They used to buy US goods. Not any more.

    10. Re:Automation and unemployment by iamhassi · · Score: 2

      So what's this "new economy" going to look like? I think we need look no further than Greece which has a thriving black market labor market. So here's how I see the future of US unskilled labor. Work will be done by robots, by part-time employees or whatever loophole status saves employers the most money, and by people working completely off the books. All which are already happening. I see this getting worse, unless we return to a saner employment policy.

      Couldn't have said it better myself. US govt seems to doing all it can to make it more difficult for the middle class

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    11. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about who builds the factory? The restaurants to feed the employees, the utilities needed to service the factory...ect... A single apple factory will generate hundreds of millions in spin off investments.

    12. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Iamthecheese · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How many cheap iphones can a jobless person purchase?
      You're being deliberately obtuse. What has happened in the past is no evidence of what will happen in the future. Automation drops prices. Comprehensive automation leaves everyone without a job. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I think our goal should be 0% employment. But that goal leaves us with no one buying things in this style of economy. So we need a new way. These charts show what productivity increases have done over the last four years. A trillion dollars more GDP, five million fewer workers. And this trend will continue. We need a change and we need it now.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    13. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Kryptonian+Jor-El · · Score: 1

      This is so wrong its not even funny. How is automation going to make the Macbook Pro cheaper for the masses? ITS NOT. Apple, like many other companies, decided that manufacturing was too costly in the US, so they moved it overseas where labor costs were next to nothing. If Apple is moving some manufacturing back to the US, and using automation to do it, it must at least be on par with their costs to do business in China. Do you expect Apple to knock $50 off the price of your next computer because of it? They won't. They'll pocket that money. Rich get richer, just like always

      --
      All your 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 are belong to us
    14. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What, copy Swatch (Swiss) ?

      Unlike Apple, the Swiss did not need think too hard about keeping high value production domestic and on brand pedigree.
      US always could, but like TV's, Walkmans, VCR's, overseas assembly always won out.

      As for any company - certainly not. By hand is still cheaper, and more importantly preserving capital for patent spats, rather than product improvement, is the name of the game . Unless you take domestic mood, outrage over hardly paying just taxes, this is a PR local assembly shift to delay some nasty medicine.

      Apple did one good thing: They mass marketed high value products made in China, at a premium..With the tax angle blown, those assumptions of 'domestic goodness' and profits going home - are empty, and legislator are rethinking lots.

    15. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      That's the way it has worked in the past, but there's no guarantee it will always be that way in the future. An observation of a historical pattern is not necessarily a law of nature.

      Someday we may reach a point where not enough new jobs are created to offset those lost to automation or offshoring, especially as high-end machines become as smart/reliable as low-end people. In the past, inventions aided humans, not replaced them. A semi-welfare state may be the only way to keep enough demand to push the economy.

    16. Re:Automation and unemployment by torsmo · · Score: 1

      Spin-off employment? Really? Providing food to robot workers might generate some employment, I guess.

    17. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Informative

      This kind of sentiment is informed by 1920s misinformation. We've already solved the problem of not having any manufacturing jobs by transitioning to a service economy.

      If you still think manufacturing robots are going to cause 50% unemployment, consider the numbers: currently, 9% of the workforce is employed in manufacturing. Even if every single one of them got replaced by a robot and couldn't find a job anywhere else (unlikely), it would still only bring the unemployment rate up to ~17%. That 50% permanent unemployment rate isn't going to be a catalyst that will bring about a socialist economy, sorry. We'll all have jobs as shoe-shiners instead (actually in financial services, hospitality, retail, health, human services, information technology and education, but shoe-shiners is more hilarious).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    18. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll bet the outrageously high profit won't change nor will the price change. They didn't get to have all those trillions in cash on hand from charging a reasonable price.

    19. Re:Automation and unemployment by rgbrenner · · Score: 1

      Automation guarantees that we will, eventually, have 50+% permanent unemployment

      No it does not guarantee anything of the sort. It *could* happen.. but so could lots of other things.

      In your scenario, you would either have a massive welfare program or a large number of destitute people. That would be extremely volatile politically... which would encourage people (in gov and business) to find a suitable solution.

      The other problem with your scenario is that you imagine today, but with lots of automated equipment. As if everything else stood still. You have no idea what technology will exist in a 100 years and/or what type of labor that will require.

      If the day comes when everything is automated and a small portion either owns or maintains that equipment... and there is nothing else for us to do, that won't necessarily mean unemployment. For example, taxes could be increased and used to fund research, construction of infrastructure, space program, etc.. that would put the rest of the people back to work.

    20. Re:Automation and Unemployment by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But there is a hypothetical case where everything we need can be made by robots, even the robots. In that case we would need a new economic system to distribute wealth.

    21. Re:Automation and unemployment by jools33 · · Score: 1

      yeah but you can't tax the robot workers.

    22. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plenty of Americans get hired. You still have the construction workers building the factories, the guys installing, maintaining, and monitoring the output of the robots. The inventory guys, shipping/receiving people, managers, truck drivers, retooling the robots for new products, etc etc. You've only eliminated a large portion of the assembly line workers. Still, plenty of new jobs for opening an assembly line.

      Plenty of mind numbing jobs left in the US at McDonalds if assembly line work is what you want.

    23. Re:Automation and unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Assembly line workers are the US middle class? Since when? Oh, since all the American companies have been going bankrupt. Silly me.

    24. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there were no workers involved in the production of our most complex products, the potential price of these same productions would be little over the cost of the raw materials.

      Of course, there are many thousands of people still involved in the production of these devices. Final assembly is just one small part of what it takes to get an iPhone from inside a human brain, all the way to store shelves.

    25. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Moses48 · · Score: 1

      His point was not that a specific instance of automation will lower the cost of that item. He is talking on the macro scale, responding to a misinformed argument. You can still argue what you are arguing without saying what he is saying is wrong. If moving manufacturing to automation lowers the cost of manufacturing, it might maximize profit to lower the price of their products, but it might maximize profit to keep it the same. We don't have the data. But in general, as efficiencies in an industry (not a specific company with a monopoly on "cool") improve, we see lower prices on the consumer side.

    26. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 2

      In the past, inventions aided humans, not replaced them.

      That's not true. Inventions have been replacing humans for a very very long time. The steam engine and railroads replaced the couriers (ala pony express). The assembly line replaced manufacturing workers (not all of them, just a large portion). Email has been replacing postmen. Computers have been replacing people since their invention (whole accounting offices reduced by 90%), business analysts reduced by 50%, etc.

      In almost every case, people have screamed that the end was coming because of it. People adapted at a much faster rate than they needed to (usually except the ones who were screaming the loudest).

    27. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Robots can't be creative, at least not yet. Either through coming up with new ideas, new directions, and art.

    28. Re:Automation and unemployment by Vapula · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The potential price would be little over the cost of raw material in a perfect world. Automation has always been pushed forward as a way to lower manufacturing costs AND product cost.

      Except that we are talking about Apple which is known to charge much more than needed and it's unlikely that the price will lower... In fact, the price may even increase as "it's made in US" with fallacies as "greater quality", "higher production costs", ...

    29. Re:Automation and unemployment by ohnocitizen · · Score: 2

      As a shoe shining socialist from the 1920s I disagree with everything you said.

    30. Re:Automation and unemployment by grumbel · · Score: 1

      ...or we need to grow the economy.

      The problem is that once you have flexible enough robots, all the new jobs created by a growing economy will be done by robots.

    31. Re:Automation and Unemployment by ohnocitizen · · Score: 1

      He provided a counterexample. The argument by FsG was "automation will reduce costs". The counterpoint by Mr Superman is "no, companies are greedy and will keep prices as is, apple is a counterexample to your argument". A single counterexample is all it takes to say "hey, this argument isn't on the ball."

    32. Re:Automation and unemployment by mysidia · · Score: 1

      If the reason it can be done in the US is automation there's very little difference in terms of employment -- The capital holders get to keep more of their capital,

      Who do you think is designing, monitor, and maintain/repair the automation systems, and build the factories? More robots?

      Robots doing most of the high precision raw labor, doesn't mean there won't be significant need for additional skilled human workers.

    33. Re:Automation and Unemployment by teg · · Score: 1

      This is so wrong its not even funny. How is automation going to make the Macbook Pro cheaper for the masses? ITS NOT. Apple, like many other companies, decided that manufacturing was too costly in the US, so they moved it overseas where labor costs were next to nothing. If Apple is moving some manufacturing back to the US, and using automation to do it, it must at least be on par with their costs to do business in China. Do you expect Apple to knock $50 off the price of your next computer because of it? They won't. They'll pocket that money. Rich get richer, just like always

      The Macbook Pro is priced based on the value Apple believes it provides, not on the production value. A really nice position to be in, and one which requires a way to differentiate you from other potential competitors. If the production price goes down $50, all other things equal, Apple pockets the difference. Same thing if the production cost increases $50, without Apple believing the reason is something that increases the relative value of the product (if the cost increase is $50 for everyone, e.g. from Intel, they'd increase the price of course).

    34. Re:Automation and unemployment by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Automation guarantees that we will, eventually, have 50+% permanent unemployment.

      No it does not. Complete automation would mean that people have to switch jobs to things that aren't automated.

      There is and will remain all kinds of work available for people who are willing to take any job that provides them a better opportunity than their present situation.

    35. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the reason it can be done in the US is automation there's very little difference in terms of employment

      Sounds good. But how do we get americans to want to work when unemployment is same as vacation for lower/middle class?

      To those of you who get up and work everyday to support bums. I'm sorry but you have little idea how much abuse is going on. ask anyone who does, or sells drugs. They'll tell you how to collect from several socials, have people work your social, collect unemployment (get extension, then get disability/crazy check), foodstamps (mmm lobster) subsidized housing (subsidized everything actually) look into kare, or other utility programs. Your standard of living will sky rocket. ya its the same money you'd make by working but factor in 24/7 free time, half your daily expenses ($5 a gallon to go to work? psh not for me)

      This brought to you by a mid 30's HS dropout with new car paid for in 3yrs, renting a house (8yrs), with 30k in the hands of my financial adviser. working a seasonal gig where i work from May-October.and spend the other 6 months snow boarding, driving the coast, getting stoned, and spending time with the family.enjoying life. Dont worry my kids education is paid for by you. that is if working stiffs are still this stupid in 15 years to allow me and those like me to teach our children how to scam.
      Best part about this? its all fact except I dont have kids, imagine if i did.
      Sorry for the rant I been dying to say this everytime I hear someone bring up the poor unemployed who cant find work. we just want enough work sponge off the system.

      So out of all that why is your life better than mine? maybe your car is better than my Accord. Maybe your house is paid for and in a better school district, maybe you have more than 30k in the bank. Maybe your iphone is better than my SGIII,but you're working 25 more years than me. Maybe its time to stop worrying about the unemployed so much.we're not worried about you. Oh you can't answer that cause its 1Am and you have to get up for work tomorrow.

    36. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, but highly qualified folks, like teachers, doctors, engineers are of no need any more. Since poorer population is unable to afford their services. You need an engineer to build a house, but hei, you can't afford a house. You may want to go to college, but your single parent can't afford you to go there. You see where I am going?

    37. Re:Automation and unemployment by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Those Chinese workers? They used to buy US goods. Not any more.

      What about when the US exports the goods to China, that were designed by US companies in the first place?

      I understand wanting to keep manufacturing in the US --- most likely this reduces risks like Chinese manufacturing companies stealing proprietary secrets, or creating pirated/copycat versions.

    38. Re:Automation and Unemployment by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      I think it has to be asked what would happen if some people never want to be creative and their jobs are automated away.

    39. Re:Automation and unemployment by jcr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Automation guarantees that we will, eventually, have 50+% permanent unemployment. We'll need to transition to a socialist economy to survive

      Yeah, because a majority of all the people are unemployed now that we only need 4% of the population to work on farms to feed us, right? Back around 1900, when 80% of the people in the USA worked on farms, who could have foreseen the horrific effects of mechanization of agriculture? The horror!

      You are very sadly misinformed about the effects of automation on productivity.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    40. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Squapper · · Score: 1

      It's the very basics of capitalism, if you create too much unemployment, the system will collapse. What you need for sustained growth is a large middle class with jobs and money enough to pay for your products. On the other end, making production cheaper and more efficient while keeping the middle class rich enough to consume is what creates economical growth. Luxury items that used to have high production costs and thus be reserved for the rich gets cheaper and becomes available to the lower classes.

      With that said, believing that infinite growth is possible in an infinite world is still both unscientific and retarded. While the economical cost of consumtion of luxury goods might decrease due to efficient production, the same is not always true for the ecological cost. At some point we will have to transform to a society where production efficiency increases no longer means that we buy a larger number of iphones every month, where we instead use increased efficiency to work less and increase spare time.

      If you ask an scientist working with climate change, i guss he/she would say that we already have passed that point..

    41. Re:Automation and Unemployment by FsG · · Score: 1

      It's precisely *because* companies (and individuals) are greedy, that prices will come down as automation makes things cheaper.

      Imagine that thanks to nano-assembly, a nice gaming laptop can be produced for $10. Even if the existing companies try to keep prices where they are, nothing will prevent some young hotshot who is looking to make his fortune from setting up shop and selling laptops for $15. He will do this because he wants to get filthy rich, and won't mind destroying the whole entrenched industry to do it.

      Maybe he'll get bought early and cash out, and the buyer kills the tech. No problem. Someone else will just come along and do it again.

      --
      I made a PHP/MySQL library that prevents SQL injection & makes coding easier!
    42. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Moses48 · · Score: 1

      Except that it isn't a counterexample. At least if Superman understood what FsG was getting at. He is talking macro economics. If we look at the hypothetical that apple won't lower prices with lower production costs it is just bogus. They would have to find the price elasticity of demand and determine what gives them maximum profits. It might even be in the best interest of a "greedy" company to lower prices. But that is beyond the point, my statement was to help Superman understand FsG, because if he thought that was a valid counter-example then he didn't understand what FsG was saying. In an open market with no price fixing (colluding) than it's safe to assume competition will drive prices down as cost goes down. If he is making the argument that the US is rampant with price fixing, that's another issue.

    43. Re:Automation and unemployment by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      This kind of sentiment is informed by 1920s misinformation. We've already solved the problem of not having any manufacturing jobs by transitioning to a service economy.

      The economies hit worst by the crisis are those with the least manufacturing jobs. Think about it.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    44. Re:Automation and unemployment by Yoda222 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wait for the robot replacing the service economy. A robot in the future could cut your hair or goes in your heart to fix your valve. The service economy is not immune to automatization. And I'm looking forward to it.

    45. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let robot buy iPhone ...
      oh, you mean those robots doesn't buy iPhone, well good luck Apple.

    46. Re:Automation and unemployment by cryptolemur · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Rewarding employers" does nothing in the long term, and only 'distorts the markets' in the short term, so it should have never been used, albeit it seems to be the idiocy du jour.
      Think about it: if there's no purchasing power, no matter how much the employer is rewarded, there's no cash flow to keep the business viable. On the other hand, if there is purchasing power and thus business, the employer doesn't need subsidies to survive.
      The best thing to do to national economy is to tax/destroy wealth at the top and create it at the bottom.
      That, and tax/moderate the financial markets regressively, but in relation to time between purchase and sale -- and start from 99.5% or so regressing to 15% in about ten years, forcing investors to care about the long term health of companies and aiming for stable and predictable markets.
      Oh, and cut the copyright to 25 years from first publication. But that's negotiable.

    47. Re:Automation and unemployment by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

      If they currently use X chinese for the job and need Y american to replace them, and if Y < X, unemployement raise.

    48. Re:Automation and Unemployment by houghi · · Score: 2

      What you do not factor in is the fact that people who will loose their job because of automation will not get their job replaced. Say there are 10 people working 40 hour shifts. Because of automation 7 will looses their job.
      This means that the 30% need to support the other 70%. Or you need to spread the 30% workload among the 100%.

      In an ideal world, the latter would be the case. However this does not happen. Instead people start working more then 40 hours, turning the last 30% into 20%.

      Sure, for now there are shifts towards the entertainment industry for now. Until people are replaced there as well.

      And yes, wealth is concentrated in too few hands. Owning an air-conditioner does not make you wealthy. Even owning a car does not do that.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    49. Re:Automation and Unemployment by mysidia · · Score: 1

      But there is a hypothetical case where everything we need can be made by robots, even the robots. In that case we would need a new economic system to distribute wealth.

      How do you figure that? If you have an unrestricted supply of robots to make everything you need, even more robots... it seems you have obsoleted "wealth", so there is no need or point in attempting to find a new economic system.

      The concept of wealth, is predicated on the idea, that you have something worthwhile to trade. If robots can make everything, then you laboring to make something is no longer an item that holds any value for trade.

      And neither is the robots, nor anything they can make. Their value is reduced to the value of the property rights to raw materials that comprise them. Which ultimately means the robot owner can't afford or justify the cost of paying the electricity bill required to operate the robots.

      That would become an immediate problem for the owner(s) of the robots -- as there is no point in their robots making things, they won't be able to trade, or gain an advantage by having their robots make; then the only thing it makes sense to do is have the robots make things required by the owners.

      It's just as much a problem for robot owners as anyone else.

      The only reason the robot owners would want money from other people is to trade for things they want. If other people can't provide the robots' owners with anything of value, then again, the robots' owners have no benefit in "profiting", by selling things for worthless money.

      The potential to earn money or profit is of no value, if the robots' owner can't use the money to pay other people for goods or services (goods or services that the owner needs because their robot can't make them -- which don't exist, if the robots can make anything).

      I believe you have a self-correcting system there; the robots also render owning robots less profitable, possibly less profitable than the costs of maintaining the robots themselves, at which point they get scrapped for their raw material value.

    50. Re:Automation and unemployment by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      They will generate money, but they don't generate jobs long-term. An automated factory is like a data center: a decent chunk of change in property taxes and that's about it. They require almost nobody to staff or keep operational in proportion to the income they generate, so their economic output is almost entirely divorced from the number of people one might assume that much economic output supports.

    51. Re:Automation and unemployment by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      There is a need for skilled human workers, but it is not by any means significant.

    52. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should ask the guy who only wanted to build buggy whips when the car was invented.

    53. Re:Automation and unemployment by mrprogrammerman · · Score: 0

      We just need to learn how to automate the service jobs.

    54. Re:Automation and Unemployment by icebraining · · Score: 1

      No, comprehensive automation of existing kinds of jobs leads to new kinds of jobs. How many software developers could be sustained by the economy of the 1900s?

      Now, we do have a problem with cronyism, which is rewarding the wrong behaviors and therefore destroying good incentives. That we need to fix.

    55. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Rockoon · · Score: 0

      He provided a counterexample.

      First he said "This is soooo wrong" and then attempted to use a specific counter-example as a general disproof. I don't know where you went to school, but I'd lay odds that it was in America, because your logical abilities is atrocious in the way that you not only didnt notice, but then actually repeated his attempt.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    56. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They DERK OUR DERBS!

    57. Re:Automation and unemployment by houghi · · Score: 1

      If you have 50% unemployment, why not reduce working hours and people will be able to start spending time with their families.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    58. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In short we are all full of shit

    59. Re:Automation and Unemployment by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Total Recall-like colony? NASA is already preparing the way ;)

    60. Re:Automation and Unemployment by houghi · · Score: 2

      I only realize it now, but what you are telling is that we have now plenty of food and what is happening is that because of all of the companies doing automatisation we can have more entertainment as well.

      panem et circenses or panem et circenses. Darn, that was well hidden.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    61. Re:Automation and unemployment by flyingfsck · · Score: 2

      Sure you can tax robots. Many countries have special taxes for capital equipment.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    62. Re:Automation and Unemployment by sqrt(2) · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You're assuming that any person can climb the "ladder" of jobs as long as those jobs exist. In reality, people are forced to stop when they reach a rung beyond their ability. Most people can't be trained to be software engineers. Most people can't be trained to be scientists. Most people can't be trained to be artists of any quality. But while the height a person can climb is limited, there is no fundamental limit to automation. Eventually automation puts the starting rung out of reach of the average person and you are left with a mass of people unable to find employment anywhere in the economy, and limited in their intellectual capacity to be trained to ever get one of the scarce jobs that do exist.

      For those people there are three options:

      1. Grinding attrition to reduce their numbers through geographic isolation (prisons, slums, ghettos), violent crime (police abandon these areas and leave them to be ruled by gangs), and various poverty related causes of death (famine, malnutrition, lack of healthcare).
      2. Revolt and forcefully take enough to survive from those who have surplus resources
      3. Get folded into some sort of peaceful wealth redistribution system that provides for their needs and allows them to reach their personal potential, become educated up to their ability, raise a family, and live with dignity.

      It's interesting to note that option one is the inevitable result of free-market economics. It's the only end game that can play out once automation really kicks off in a society that completely shuns anything that seems like socialism. It's also, in my opinion, probably the most likely starting point. I think we're going to see all three of those stages in the next 100-200 years. We are already in stage one in many respects.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    63. Re:Automation and unemployment by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      What you call the workforce today is not what we used to call the workforce. Your 9% do not include people over 65, students, handicapped, and (depending on the country you are talking about) people not actively looking for a job like housemoms.

      Just look at the average person : life expectancy is more than 80, you will work ~ from 25 to 65. 50% of your life. Of all the persons who are physically able to work, we are probably at about 50% of them not working. Sure, we will continue to be at about 5-10% of the workforce unemployed, but automation will allow to reduce what we call workforce...

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    64. Re:Automation and unemployment by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If there were no workers involved in the production of our most complex products, the potential price of these same productions would be little over the cost of the raw materials.

      So how's life in imginary land?

    65. Re:Automation and Unemployment by LMariachi · · Score: 4

      "Have you seen the unemployment and welfare lines?"

      I have, but you very obviously haven't, seeing as you're regurgitating 30 year old right-wing "welfare queen" bullshit. Only now it's iPads instead of Cadillacs. At least you're trending towards "somewhat plausible."

    66. Re:Automation and Unemployment by LMariachi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Believing that infinite growth is possible in an infinite world is perfectly logical. The problem is that we live in a finite world, and our growth-oriented model of capitalism strongly resembles cancer.

    67. Re:Automation and unemployment by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The same reason we didn't solve unemployment this time around by going to a 36 hour work week. That is, it might mean that the 1% have to wait till next year for that all important 5th yacht.

    68. Re:Automation and unemployment by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're missing an important statistic, as is everyone else in this discussion (and nearly all the others on Slashdot lately). That statistic is called the participation rate, and according to the Department of Labor, it's the lowest it has been since World War II. The number I saw last was a participation rate of 65%. That is, only 65% of the working age population is actually working. We are, in fact, trending towards 50% unemployment right now, and we're far far closer than the unemployment numbers would have you believe. I haven't seen anybody plot out the trend line, but I suspect it will not be too many years before we're at 50%. In other words, we'll have basically returned to the time when women did not work outside the home.

      There are plenty of people willing to argue this would be a good thing, and possibly it could have been. But it's not, and the reasons are too numerous to list, but I can hit the high points. First, wages have remained stagnate for two generations while the cost of living has soared, so it's no longer possible to support a family on a single income. Second, the divorce rate is way over 50%, so the nuclear family is effectively nonexistent. Third, people who have had the idea that they absolutely must work ground into their heads their entire lives who aren't able to find work become self-destructively depressed. Fourth, as has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, there is no upper limit on automation, so we have no reason to believe the trend will stop at 50%. I could go on, but you get the idea.

      The obvious retort is we never had a 100% participation rate, and of course that's true. But it was once much higher than it is now. Those jobs have, in fact, been lost. Permanently and completely. That's why those people are no longer counted as unemployed. They're counted as non-participating. Because they will not ever be employed again.

    69. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You can go further. With the development of selfdriving cars you could potentially replace busdriver, truckdrivers, taxi drivers.. and so on.
      Millions of fast food workers will be replaced in the future by automated burger machines:
      http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/141372-judgment-day-update-disneys-grenade-catching-robot-and-the-burger-flipping-robot-that-could-replace-2-million-us-workers

      Heck even today when i call my bank its not a operator who answers the call but an advanced computer with speech recognizion software.

    70. Re:Automation and unemployment by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Because those jobs which are the hardest to automate (and thus the most to remain) are also the hardest to share. In general, one person working 100% is more effective than 2 people working 50%, unless it's a very simple job (of course cleaning the floor is easily distributed to more people working less time; but then, it's also more easily automated). And the difference grows the more demanding the job is.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    71. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Those Chinese workers? They used to buy US goods. "

      Us goods? Like what? Jeeps?

    72. Re:Automation and unemployment by sjames · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In other words, a steadily declining income as a more or less steady pool of workers are forced to compete for an ever shrinking pool of less desirable jobs.

      I have seen automated convenience stores, automated cars/trucks, automated fast food and automated warehouses. Sure, they're just prototypes now, but not for much longer.

      So, back to the question at hand, what will it take to make sure everyone has a decent opportunity at employment sufficient to support themselves decently?

      Perhaps those evil unions can save the day (again) by forcing a 20 hour work week for a living wage. They'll need to present a credible threat of violence (again) to make it happen I would imagine.

      Word to the wise: If you don't want a socialist revolution here in the U.S. make damned sure not to put people's backs against the wall.

    73. Re:Automation and unemployment by smi.james.th · · Score: 0

      And what happens when the owners move the factories back to China (or other foreign nation) when they can make robots with no (or little) taxing there? I sincerely hope you were being sarcastic. I like the comments about the new economy, though they seem a little thick on buzzwords to me. Just as when I posted a question about DVD rental stores a while ago everyone made horse-and-buggy comments, the factory worker might become extinct but other jobs will surface. People need to take responsibility for themselves and take some initiative, rather than sitting on their arses complaining that there aren't any jobs and demanding welfare benefits.

      --
      One thing I know, and that is that I am ignorant...
    74. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As a shoe shining socialist from the 1920s I disagree with everything you said.

      You joke, but think back to the early 20th century (or watch a few old movies). People had their shoes shined, bought newspapers from a newsboy, drove into a filling station where the attendant not only filled the tank, he cleaned the windshield and checked the oil, milk was delivered to the doorstep and so forth. Even a person of modest means could be attended like royalty.

      We switched to self-service everything because it was cheaper and those jobs went away. They mostly didn't pay jack, but then again, consider where we're heading now.

    75. Re:Automation and unemployment by craigminah · · Score: 1

      All these robots that are bound to escape, replicate, and attack us so I'm looking for investors to help me found a company to find ways to kill these robot overlords. Should be a growth industry as we'll take plenty of losses from the robot blitzkrieg.

    76. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Go down to the poorest neighborhoods in a major city, and you'll see out of work people sitting on their porches playing words with friends on their iPads."

      First, they bought them for 80$ from a TSA worker, second, they can't spell, so words with friends is out.

    77. Re:Automation and Unemployment by solidraven · · Score: 1

      Automation, cheaper? You wish...
      Most of the cost of electronics comes from testing, and the automated test equipment costs a fortune. Yield drops leading to higher repair costs to avoid wasting too much resources increasing the cost further.

    78. Re:Automation and unemployment by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Actually people seems to manage to do the exact same amount of work if you modify the working hours in the 35-45 hours/week range. Essentially everyone works more efficiently at 35 hours, at least on average.

    79. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Who says automation only replaces manufacturing jobs? It also replaces service jobs. I can now check out of the grocery store without a human, there is an automated assistant touch screen at the hospital so they only need one receptionist. The car wash I use is completely automated and I've only seen a service guy there one time in 50+ visits. I don't remember the last time I talked to a bank teller! I do it all on the phone and ATM. I could go on and on

    80. Re:Automation and unemployment by Issarlk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Then you just hope the cost of transport makes it uncompetitive to build products in China to sell in the US. With the oil peak it might work.

    81. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      The Macbook Pro is priced based on the value Apple believes it provides,

      Bullshit. Well at least wrongly worded.

      Most high end electronics and all fashion products are priced on "what people are willing to pay". Companies have no reason to set the price lower than that, and setting it higher would ruin the bottom line. In practice though, what people are willing to pay is more of a slope than a single point, but it still has an optimum companies tries to aim for.

    82. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Iamthecheese · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No, your unsupported claim does not address my rhetorical question.

      I've heard a lot of people spout this "poor people live like they're rich" line but I've been poor and I've seen poor people. in fact I'm poor now and I can tell you I'm not eligible for anything but the student loans that keep me alive at a sustenance level and VA health care because I was in the military and honorably discharged. My father is poor and all he gets is the social security he paid into. He's physically incapable of working and if he didn't keep a garden he would starve. My mother is poor and she's eligible for nothing. She works as a nursing assistant. One bad job and she'll literally be out on the street.

      My friend is poor, she also physically cannot work. on a good day she manages to clean her house. She gets medicine, a CPAP machine, and 700 dollars per month.

      I don 't know where all these poor people living like kings are but I'm pretty damn sure they only exist in the minds of conservatives.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    83. Re:Automation and Unemployment by GuldKalle · · Score: 1

      Then why don't they just raise the price by $50? $500?
      If manufacturers always pocket the savings, why doesn't a present-day microwave oven cost as much as much as the first ones?

      Because competition.

      --
      What?
    84. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.amazon.com/The-Lights-Tunnel-Automation-Accelerating/dp/1448659817/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355055735&sr=8-1&keywords=lights+in+the+tunnel

    85. Re:Automation and unemployment by rasmusbr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The cost of raw materials would be close zero since that is also basically labor.

      The thing is that if we look back say 300 years we see that we already have close to free energy and close to free labor by 1712's standards. The average person today uses more energy than the richest king back then and the average farmer today produces as much food as a village of hundreds of people produced back then. We can produce so much food that we have to throw away or burn a significant fraction of it to prevent our food storage from overflowing...

      And yet we still have problems like homelessness and people dying from curable diseases.

    86. Re:Automation and unemployment by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that if Apple really did charge more than needed, than someone else would step in and sell a similar product for cheaper. But we just don't see that happening. Other companies make similar products, but almost none of them contain the same amount of "polish" as the Apple products. Just the physical design, getting so much into a small case, and making just about every component custom in order to do so has to account for a sustantial cost. Although they use commodity CPUs in their machines, that's about the only thing in their computers that's commodity. Most of the rest is custom build, and redesigned every year. Sure they probably could have got away with making the iPhone thinner again this year, but that's not the way they do things.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    87. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that unemployment equates to people looking for a job but don't have one, right? That means that the other people not participating are not because they don't want/have to. I feel that number going up is a good thing, after all, it means we're finally getting to the era of the Jetsons instead of trying to go back to the stone ages.

    88. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is very possible to support a family on a single income, part of the problem is the definition of "support" keeps chaning.

      Food, a modest house, 1 used car, basic and I mean BASIC health care, 1 TV, clothes, a few major appliances, and a basic education....easy.

      Now everyone wants a 5000ft2 house, 3 new cars, a tv in every room, multiple PCs, multiple cell phones, multiple tablets, home and wireless internet, cable, all the major appliances, full health care, eat out for every other meal and premade meals for the rest, college education, vacation every year, recreational vehicles, etc, etc

      That is why people have dual income families and a mountain of debt.

    89. Re:Automation and unemployment by GameboyRMH · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So your solution to the greed of the "job creators" which is leading towards unsustainable wage disparities and high unemployment due to large-scale automation is to make it easier for them to get their fix by lowering employee benefits?

      GP was right, we do need a new economy to deal with the fact that people can't compete with robots anymore, we've been putting hackish fixes on this tarted-up barter system for too long and it won't stay running much longer. Trying to make people cheaper than robots doesn't seem like a good short-term solution. Maybe instead we stop giving into the money addiction of the few?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    90. Re:Automation and unemployment by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Make sure you get an education for something that can't be replaced by a robot, or isn't likely to be replaced by a robot. Anything designing or programming robots is probably ok. But even common jobs that don't require a university degree like car mechanic, barber/hair stylist, plumber, electrician, and many other jobs aren't likely to be automated by robots. If you're intelligent and driven, you could also be a doctor, dentist, veterinarian, accountant, or lawyer. There's plenty of jobs out there that can't be automated away. But those aren't the jobs that are just easy pickings, where they could (and often do) hire some highschool kid to do the job. People won't be able to walk into a job with no job skills and get hired. Those kinds of jobs have been disappearing for the last 50 years, and will dry up in the next 50.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    91. Re:Automation and unemployment by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      All of those face the same threat from robotics - even infotech, although to a lesser degree. It will also move to fewer, more highly skilled jobs.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    92. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Cheech+Wizard · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As processes become more automated, the things we want become cheaper because the cost of labor is the dominant cost in almost every business. This means people have more spare money available, and it will be spent on things that before would have been considered too wasteful. This creates new industries and new jobs.

      Totally wrong. You *assume* that because it becomes cheaper to manufacture something a company is going to lower its selling price. That is basic business school rhetoric that doesn't reflect reality. I used to manufacture a low volume product as a side business. I found that I could automate and reduce expenses 70% (this was in the late 1990's). I didn't reduce my price to consumers. I increased prices 15% within a year because my product was better made (in part no human errors in build), was more reliable (lower returns and warranty costs), and in part I found many people buy on price (higher price means better). Unit sales went down less than 10%. It did help me retire in 2003 at the age of 53. I do not deny that in *some* fields prices may come down, but almost all price reductions are due to competition, to some degree volume, and to some degree obsolescence.

    93. Re:Automation and unemployment by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      The same company that does it for dozens of other automated factories? And yes there may be more robots involved.

      Do you think that a robot manufacturer and their service team will hire anywhere near as many as all those factory workers they replaced?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    94. Re:Automation and unemployment by queazocotal · · Score: 1

      Robot warehouses, trucks, inventory, already exist.
      Many of those jobs are temporary.
      Retooling and programming the robots, sure, those are high skilled jobs.
      That 99.9% of people won't be able to do through not having the skills or intelligence.

    95. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Zeromous · · Score: 1

      I agree 100 percent. It's positively stunning the attitudes here on Slashdot towards automation. It's not like you've never replaced someone or something with a very small shell script.

        Maybe we should just kill crons or an automated task we run in the background how to save an unskilled job. Burn the tape robots and Nuke the cloud.

        Of course I'm being facetious but it's okay it's not the IT backyard right?

      --
      ---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
    96. Re:Automation and unemployment by MouseTheLuckyDog · · Score: 2, Interesting

      First. I hardly think their processor can be described as commodity when they use their proprietary A-series.

      Second. If someone stepped in and sold a cheaper product, then they would sue them.

    97. Re:Automation and Unemployment by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Well-put, and this is only one problem with the rosy view of automation in a capitalist economy.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    98. Re:Automation and unemployment by Beetjebrak · · Score: 1

      Prototypes? There's an automated convenience store right here in my street, it's been there for about 8 years now. I can go there in the dead of night to get a can of pringles or a box of dishwasher-tabs if need be.. but it's ludicrously expensive (I don't understand why), so the only thing I ever bought there was a USB stick years ago.

      --
      Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
    99. Re:Automation and unemployment by am+2k · · Score: 2

      The creative industries are probably the last ones to be replaced by automation, but that's also just a matter of time.

    100. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sure, you're just trying to move the bar for current unemployment.
      if we do that it would only be fair to consider historical unemployment
      with like numbers. (and we'd likely still refute the 50% number.)

    101. Re:Automation and Unemployment by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      I don't think creative robots are far off, we'll probably get them well before advanced AI:

      http://arstechnica.com/science/2009/09/virtual-composer-makes-beautiful-musicand-stirs-controversy/

      https://creativity-online.com/news/robot-creativity-turns-sweet-dreams-into-datadriven-art-for-ibis/237564

      The good news is that the easiest target, Hollywood writers, will be first on the chopping block.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    102. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A robot could certainly run a bank (most is already run by computer anyway) and any random number generator would be an improvement over most governments, so that could be replaced too.

    103. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I suggest zombies. They're more cost-effective than robots, cheaper to replace, and on their off hours can do even more to reduce the number of unemployed.

      Wouldn't letting the zombies reduce the number of unemployed just result in an over zealous recruiting effort for more factory zombie workers?

    104. Re:Automation and unemployment by Cwix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We need to get rid of all of those damn socialist policies!!

      Hwys and roads.
      Public schools
      FDA
      EPA
      National Parks
      Medicare
      Fire Departments
      Police Departments
      Anything with the word community in it (Like gardens)
      Public libraries
      Public colleges/universities

      Stupid asshole. Some things are better when they are socialist, because we all reap benefits from them. Everyone in this country has reaped benefits from this list in one way or another. That does not mean we need to scrap capitalism. It does mean that we shouldn't dismiss "socialist" ideas out of hand.

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    105. Re:Automation and unemployment by mozumder · · Score: 1

      BLS shows that labor participation rates include everyone over the age of 16, which includes seniors. http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

      The boomers are now retiring, which is why you're seeing a few percentage point drop in participation rates over the last few years.

    106. Re:Automation and Unemployment by mozumder · · Score: 1

      Have you seen the unemployment and welfare lines? They all have them. Go down to the poorest neighborhoods in a major city, and you'll see out of work people sitting on their porches playing words with friends on their iPads.

      Does that answer your question?

      No, since you didn't provide a citation.

      Please show poor people being able to afford iPads.

    107. Re:Automation and unemployment by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Who do you think is designing, monitor, and maintain/repair the automation systems, and build the factories? More robots?

      Skilled workers, but not exceptionally skilled. Think auto mechanics. They will pull modules out of robots and send them to factories where people who only know how to work on one module will repair them, all at the lowest wages possible. Only a tiny handful of people will have to be very intelligent, to design new robots and new design tools.

      Robots doing most of the high precision raw labor, doesn't mean there won't be significant need for additional skilled human workers.

      Yes, it most certainly does, and anyone who says different is selling something. Probably robots.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    108. Re:Automation and unemployment by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Except that if Apple really did charge more than needed, than someone else would step in and sell a similar product for cheaper. But we just don't see that happening. Other companies make similar products, but almost none of them contain the same amount of "polish" as the Apple products

      There is apparently only room for one company which makes the same product, just 1% smaller, and charges 20% more for it. Or possibly, only Apple has figured out that it's all about cachet and cutesyness and not about making a substantially better product. But now that they are there, you have to make an even cooler product, or else you're just trying to copy Apple, so why wouldn't they just buy from Apple?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    109. Re:Automation and unemployment by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Make sure you get an education for something that can't be replaced by a robot, or isn't likely to be replaced by a robot. Anything designing or programming robots is probably ok.

      We can't all be robot designers.

      There's plenty of jobs out there that can't be automated away.

      No, there are very few jobs that won't be automated away eventually, and all of them are inherently creative.

      People won't be able to walk into a job with no job skills and get hired. Those kinds of jobs have been disappearing for the last 50 years, and will dry up in the next 50.

      Then we'd better make sure both that education is available on a no-cost basis, and also that you don't have to pay living expenses until you've completed your education, or we're right back to the issue of riots in the streets, or having to simply murder our unuseful population.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    110. Re:Automation and unemployment by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      If the reason it can be done in the US is automation there's very little difference in terms of employment

      Which is why people stress the importance of an education. Learn from the wheelwrights and blacksmith -- the labor market evolves.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    111. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      McDonalds will become automatic. Most of the work in a McDonald resturant could be done by machines.

      McDonald will do this when they feel the presure to do so.

    112. Re:Automation and unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Think about it: if there's no purchasing power, no matter how much the employer is rewarded, there's no cash flow to keep the business viable.

      If automation removes most of the labor costs, then products become very cheap and people don't have to work very much to buy everything they want. That's what wealth means.

      The best thing to do to national economy is to tax/destroy wealth at the top and create it at the bottom.

      You don't actually need to "tax wealth", it just inflates away if people don't do anything productive with their money. On the other hand, redistribution by taxation does not "create wealth", it just removes the incentives for the recipients to become more productive.

      That, and tax/moderate the financial markets regressively, but in relation to time between purchase and sale -- and start from 99.5% or so regressing to 15% in about ten years, forcing investors to care about the long term health of companies and aiming for stable and predictable markets. Oh, and cut the copyright to 25 years from first publication.

      Both of those are reasonable proposals, but they have nothing whatsoever with "taxing at the top".

    113. Re:Automation and unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Wait for the robot replacing the service economy. A robot in the future could cut your hair or goes in your heart to fix your valve. The service economy is not immune to automatization.

      So... when all of our major needs are taken care of by robots (producing food, producing machines, producing more robots, services), then that means that a few hours of work a month will earn you the money to pay for that. Sounds good to me.

    114. Re:Automation and unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 2

      I haven't seen anybody plot out the trend line,

      The trend line is here:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Labor_Participation_Rate_1948-2011_by_gender.svg.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_force

      Labor participation is higher than in the any time since around 1980. There have been big changes, mostly due to women entering the workforce.

      The obvious retort is we never had a 100% participation rate, and of course that's true. But it was once much higher than it is now

      No, it wasn't. Look at the graph.

      Really, before going off on lengthy tirades, why not do a 10 second Google search?

    115. Re:Automation and unemployment by marcosdumay · · Score: 2

      At least their HR policies make sense.

    116. Re:Automation and unemployment by climb_no_fear · · Score: 1

      Maybe this is silly but my uncle (used to, he's now retired) fix robots and made a nice living doing it.

      I guess this is stating the obvious but someone has to design the robots and someone to maintain them.

      And once the robots start designing and building robot factories and more robots, I have a name for the first facility: SkyNet.

    117. Re:Automation and unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Labor participation is higher than in the any time since around 1980. There have been big changes, mostly due to women entering the workforce.

      That didn't come out right. Labor participation today is about where it was in 1980. It was higher in 1980 than at any time since WWII. It reached peak a couple of points higher than today, but those were workers that had been recruited into the labor force by a booming economy, and the slight decline from that peak is hardly cause for concern.

    118. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If that were the case, you'd have more employed. The economy isn't just about the rich assholes at the top....if you use the metrics they used in the period of the Great Depression for measuring unemployment, we're setting at about 1 in 4 out of work, some five percent above what was there in the GD at it's worst and some 15% above what you're being lied to with.

      Growing in leaps and bounds is yet another damned lie that tools like you propagate- and the mods that upmodded your post need to lay down their damn crack pipes and quit modding.

    119. Re:Automation and Unemployment by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      You live like a king because TVs and other electronics and are so cheap now.

      What do you mean you don't eat electronics, why not?

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    120. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Coisiche · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don 't know where all these poor people living like kings are but I'm pretty damn sure they only exist in the minds of conservatives.

      The meme is more widespread than that because certain media outlets supporting a conservative agenda will perpetuate the idea at every opportunity so that many taxpayers will believe that the single, most significant reason for a country's economic woes is down to people living it large on welfare.

      So long as the ruling elite can keep the in-fighting going among the people who massively outnumber them then they don't have to worry about attention being focused on them.

    121. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don 't know where all these poor people living like kings are but I'm pretty damn sure they only exist in the minds of conservatives.

      Simple - it comes from seeing people with smartphones using EBT cards.

      Of course, nobody - especially not during the 2008/2009 collapse - has the good sense to figure out that in the vast majority of cases, these are people who were formerly gainfully employed. Nor do they have the pitiful few grams of logic it takes to comprehend why they still have them (early termination fees that they are in no position to afford), nor why it's a good thing they have them (kind of hard to get interviews when you can no longer receive calls).

    122. Re:Automation and unemployment by Phrogman · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well there is the little fact that the Apple products are easier to use, generally more reliable, very user friendly, have a great UI design, and are of course extremely stylish. If you are willing to settle for things which okay to use, mostly reliable, somewhat user friendly, have an ok UI design with very little thought put into it by comparison, and can be considered stylish as long as you haven't seen the comparable apple product, then yeah there seems to be only the 1 leading company.
      I have an iMac desktop, it dualboots into OS/X and Win7. There is no comparison between the two operating systems in my opinion. OS/X wins pretty much hands down on every category except "Runs the games I play" which Win7 wins hands down, and is thus installed on my box. If OS/X ever becomes the popular OS to develop for that MS Windows is at the moment, I will never look at Windows again.
      I have owned an iPod Touch, again very nice kit. Not at all comparable to anything else.
      I have a Blackberry Playbook, my wife has an iPad. She has apps available to do all sorts of fascinating things, many of them free. There's probably half a million of the suckers available. The Playbook has apps, none of which do anything remotely interesting to me, and they number at least a hundred or so. As a piece of kit, the Playbook is great, but the support and the apps available are just plain sad.
      I have a Samsung Galaxy S smart phone. Its not bad unless you have played with an iPhone of course. The Samsung works but the UI is poorly thought out IMHO. I am constantly frustrated by strange choices in the way it works. I seldom feel that way about Apple products.

      I am not a fanboy, but I am not blind either. Apple's products work very well, and when compared to their competition, the price really isn't all that out to lunch despite the naysayers. My iMac desktop is 5+ years old, and the only thing I have needed to fix on it so far is the hard drive which I had replaced. I can't think of a single one of the many PCs I owned in the past that lasted 5 years without having had to have multiple things replaced and/or repaired.

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
    123. Re:Automation and Unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 0

      People coming from households making less than $30000 have 34% smartphone ownership. That seems pretty high to me.

      http://www.statista.com/statistics/195006/percentage-of-us-smartphone-owners-by-household-income/

    124. Re:Automation and unemployment by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      In other words, a steadily declining income as a more or less steady pool of workers are forced to compete for an ever shrinking pool of less desirable jobs.

      At the same time, with steadly declining prices of everything that is done by robots. L'Hôpital's rule is your friend.

      The best solution I can think to force a peacefull transition is by wealth redistribution done by the governmet. Just stablish a certain proportional tax (say 5% of al income), and redistribute it equaly to all citizens.

    125. Re:Automation and unemployment by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

      that won't make the slightest difference for the unemployed

      Yes it will. The new gadget they won't need AND won't be able to afford will be made in US of A.

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    126. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Uh, read it more carefully. The post you replied to was making that very point - economic growth is a meaningless metric when it leaves huge swaths of the population unemployed.

    127. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Physically incapable of working, yet he keeps a garden?

      GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. Gardening is hard work.

    128. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure, but who would hire you for a few hours a month when their money would be better-spent on robots.

      I see two choices - either we all starve to death while robots harvest a bounty unlike anything the world has ever seen, or we give up on the idea that the only way to pay for things is to work for them.

    129. Re:Automation and unemployment by Phrogman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We had to switch to self-service everything because those shitty jobs you describe started getting paid a reasonable amount of money, and many good jobs were unionized and the unions spoke up for their workers to get them decent working conditions, a pension to retire on etc. Because paying for the labour of things cost more (as it should have) the slave-labour jobs disappeared and we did more ourselves to ensure that the cost of the things we paid for were kept down. If you want to be treated like Royalty you still can almost anywhere - it just costs a lot.
      The problem is that all a long the rich kept getting richer and have gradually been paying less and less taxes. Now they have engineered the destruction of many of the unions, so they can pay shit wages again and continue to get rich on the backs (and bodies) of the workers who make it possible for them.
      Corporations now rule the world in effect. Oh sure, they allow us the illusion of government and democratic elections but they control the strings behind the puppets we elect, and the government works to their benefit before ours mostly. Its not all cut and dried, not all back and white of course, its many subtle shades of grey too, but the welfare of the average person is not the prime motivation for the elected governments of the age. If it ever was it certainly isnt now.
      Increased reliance on automation is going to put even more people out of work. If they can automate the industrial side, whats to say they can't automate the service side too? Then where do the ex-members of the middle class go to find work?

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
    130. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      Robots building and designing the robots is inevitable. I think the only question is whether they all work for 10 super-rich guys at the top, or if perhaps those who weren't born into the robot-owning families actually can live off of something more than scraps.

    131. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I see no reason why you can't automate creative work. Your brain is nothing more than a bunch of neurons wired together - why can't it be duplicated? We simply do not yet know how, just as once we did not know how to build a machine that could add numbers.

    132. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting how you surround yourself with leeches as well.. HMmmm

    133. Re:Automation and unemployment by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 1

      Except that if Apple really did charge more than needed, than someone else would step in and sell a similar product for cheaper.

      People do sell similar products cheaper. Apple can still charge higher margins because of brand loyalty and because the market is heavily distorted by the near monopoly on desktop computer operating systems held by Microsoft. Apple had the capital and position to bypass most of that market distortion using extreme vertical integration, but only with very large upfront costs. This barrier to entry then reduces competitive pressure and lets them make larger than normal margins on the high end.

      Market forces are not as simplistic as a supply demand diagram from Econ 101.

    134. Re:Automation and Unemployment by LMariachi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      An iPhone 3G that you couldn't give away for nothing on Craigslist counts as a "smartphone." What do you expect people to do, plunk quarters into increasingly nonexistent payphones to talk to their families or social services or arrange job interviews? Restrict themselves to some old-ass StarTac that isn't any cheaper, does much less, and can't talk to modern cell networks? For the same price you'd pay for a landline (which you can only use while you're at home) you can get a free smartphone with essentially unlimited talk & text, which you can use anywhere and also listen to music or play Angry Birds. I assure you that spending thirty-five bucks a month on mobile communications is far from extravagant living large.

    135. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, sounds like a the GP, his family and friends are hardcore spongin'

      The victim culture in the west is serious business.

    136. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're talking out of your shit tube. We now spend a small fraction of our "wealth" on food now? Are you fucking joking? Your statement is true if you expect people to buy all the cheap, terribly unhealthy processed shit they pass off as food. If you try to buy fruits, vegetables, lean meats, etc you pay out of the same hole you're spewing your idiocy.

      30+ million currently with or soon to have type 2 diabetes isn't just because "ooo they're fat and lazy". It's because many people simply can't afford to eat decent food because the cheap shit is so cheap due to ridiculous government subsidies.

      Wake the fuck up.

    137. Re:Automation and unemployment by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 3

      basic and I mean BASIC health care

      Health care is not like the other things you list. Want to turn an average person into a criminal, even a murderer? It is easy, just put them or one of their loved ones in the position of a life saving operation being denied because they don't have enough money. Wealth inequality is the best predictor of violent crime. Be Very careful in how you define basic health care and really think about the costs because basic doesn't mean cheap to provide unless you're begging for a violent revolution.

      a basic education

      If you can't get a job with a basic education, how does this prevent societal disruption?

      That is why people have dual income families and a mountain of debt.

      Well that and the fact that real income/cost ratios have been going down for decades and wealth inequality has been going up and globalization has made markets less reactive to workers and the progressiveness of taxes is the lowest in many decades.

    138. Re:Automation and Unemployment by marcosdumay · · Score: 2

      You probably doubt everybody that tells you that "this time it's different", and most of the time you are right, things are not different. Yet, there are times that are different, and this one is one of them.

      Robots and AI won't just replace a part of of the economy, they are going to completely replace it. Your rationale simply can't handle that kind of situations, your assumptions are wrong. There won't be other jobs waiting for the fired people, robots will be already on them. (And that includes entretainement.)

      Some folks also make the claim that the new wealth will be concentrated in too few hands, and most people won't get wealthier. That, too, is false: automation makes things so cheap...

      There is you now arguing that things will be different. When in history there was a productivity revolution and most people got wealthier? It always take lots of generations to trickle down... And this time most (if not all) people may not be able to survive until there.

      Infinite productivity is a great thing, but the transition is a serious problem. It would be great if we were able to deal with any kind of transition, but we can't. It will be disastrous.

    139. Re:Automation and unemployment by TheLink · · Score: 1

      If there were no workers involved in the production of our most complex products, the potential price of these same productions would be little over the cost of the raw materials.

      Think of the Chinese workers as robots. Are the prices a little over the cost of the raw materials?

      Also think how you non-robots in the USA are doing in this "robot" world. Is it going to get better for you in a real robot world?

      --
    140. Re:Automation and unemployment by cynyr · · Score: 1

      Millions of fast food workers will be replaced in the future by automated burger machines

      I'd probably be willing to buy one at 1.5x the normal price if I could watch the manufacturing line make my burger. Even better if there are signs at each station explaining what it is doing and how the interesting part of the station works. for example, how they pick up a lettuce leaf at the condiment station.

      Granted it is likely that even an automated burger joint would still need a small number of people, for things like unloading trucks, loading hoppers, fixing the machine when it breaks, cleaning the machine. I suspose i could a floor washing robot for the floors, but cleaning chairs and tables seems like it will be a long way off.

      Lots of places are already semi-automated. Next time you are in a McDonalds, pay attention to the fry machine, most only require the human to add fries to a basket, and press a button. I'm not sure why they haven't gone a step farther, and decided to automate putting fires in baskets. they could use historical sales data, current orders, and what ever other info is relevant to adjust fry production so it would match demand very closely and reduce possible waste, and provide a higher quality product to the customer. I.E. hot fries.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    141. Re:Automation and unemployment by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 1

      Those Chinese workers? They used to buy US goods. Not any more.

      What about when the US exports the goods to China, that were designed by US companies in the first place?

      I think you're missing the previous poster's point, that the chinese won't be able to buy goods in general because the former workers will be unemployed and have no income.

    142. Re:Automation and unemployment by cynyr · · Score: 1

      Ahh, but what would you do?

      I know what i would be doing, designing/programming the robots that do service work, but then I'm a mechanical engineer, and I don't see that field going anywhere anytime soon (on a macro scale).

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    143. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very few isn't none though! I make factory robotics systems for a living, so I see this and get excited. If Apple is making robotic US factories, other companies will follow. That's more work for the people in my field and, hopefully, fewer trips to China for me. Plus, those of us getting hired are high income, not close to minimum wage. All of those things are great.

    144. Re:Automation and unemployment by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 1

      To those of you who get up and work everyday to support bums. I'm sorry but you have little idea how much abuse is going on.

      Humans are not rational. Have you seen the social studies where you get to divide money between two people, one divides it and the other picks if they both get the money or both get screwed. People always turn down free money just to punish those they think have done wrong. And that is exactly your problem. You're focused on trying to punish those that game the system even at the expense of having an effective system overall.

      There is no perfect, un-exploitable system. Deal with it. That doesn't mean we should burn the house down to try to punish someone for not doing the dishes.

    145. Re:Automation and Unemployment by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      That's EXACTLY right. Cost and price are really quite unrelated. Price is all about what the market is willing to pay.

      However competition does eventually drive costs down. This is why I don't own any Apple stock. Like everything else their bloated margins are gradually going to be driven down by competition from other companies. They are on a treadmill where they have to come out with new products that differentiate themselves in a big way to maintain those margins. I don't think they will be able to do it.

    146. Re:Automation and unemployment by khallow · · Score: 2

      Assembly line workers are the US middle class?

      Not all assembly line jobs are/were middle class, but I'd say most of what is left still is. Having high turnover in your assembly line really messes it up and it's been well paying since the early 20th century.

      Reading a little bit of modern history would help. I recommend starting with Henry Ford's "five dollar day" though keep in mind that the pay was that high because that's what it took to keep workers not because Ford wanted them to be able to buy Model T cars (that's the surprisingly effective Ford propaganda).

      It started a sea change from assembly jobs as low paying, sweat shop work to becoming a big part of the US's new economy, a huge "middle class".

    147. Re:Automation and Unemployment by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

      You didn't go back far enough. The horse collar is one of the biggest inventions in human history, enabling the production of surplus food and putting an end to feudalism in Europe and was one of the leading factors in putting an end to the Middle Ages.

      FACT: Free time is a GOOD thing. Automation will lead to more free time is changing our lives for the better. Yes change is often uncomfortable, but stagnation is far worse.

    148. Re:Automation and unemployment by khallow · · Score: 1

      "Rewarding employers" does nothing in the long term, and only 'distorts the markets' in the short term, so it should have never been used, albeit it seems to be the idiocy du jour.

      One merely needs to look at the last few decades to see that punishing employers works quite well in the long term. Massive amounts of US jobs have gone elsewhere.

      The best thing to do to national economy is to tax/destroy wealth at the top and create it at the bottom.

      No, it doesn't. Because that's not how wealth is created in reality. The people who create a lot of wealth become rich and the people who on their own can't create a lot of wealth become poor -- unless they happen to be working for the first group or engage in some of the wide variety of rent seeking opportunities the US has to offer. If your country is busy destroying wealth of the people who create the most, then how are the people who can't create a lot of wealth on their own going to make up for it? It doesn't happen.

      That, and tax/moderate the financial markets regressively, but in relation to time between purchase and sale -- and start from 99.5% or so regressing to 15% in about ten years, forcing investors to care about the long term health of companies and aiming for stable and predictable markets.

      What would be the point? All that valuable trade would move elsewhere. I have an alternate suggestion. Treat all capital gains and other market income as normal income while dropping the alternate minimum tax completely. Believe it or not, that combination rewards long term investment (of two years or more) quite nicely.

      Oh, and cut the copyright to 25 years from first publication. But that's negotiable.

      First sensible suggestion you've had.

    149. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you're saying is that the current system of Employer Provide healthcare cannot work, right? That is is impossible for individual companies to provide reasonable healthcare plans for their employees? I thought Private Enterprise could do everything better? No? Well, maybe we need Universal Healthcare then?

    150. Re:Automation and unemployment by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well there is the little fact that the Apple products are easier to use, generally more reliable, very user friendly, have a great UI design, and are of course extremely stylish

      It is a fact that Apple products are not easier to use or more reliable or more user-friendly or have better UI design, all of this has been proven through usability and other studies. Stylish is a matter of opinion, though it does seem to hold out. It is a fact that you are an iFanboy.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    151. Re:Automation and unemployment by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Robots are replacing workers everywhere and we need a new economy to deal with the situation.

      I don't mean to belittle your concerns, but it's not as bleak as you paint. If the factory is in the US, it is still a net win for employment. Robots need to be manufactured, maintained, and repaired (I work in that industry). This is the kind of high-margin business that US companies can still compete in. The factory needs support services. The factory needs raw materials. The raw materials and finished goods need to be transported. Many of these jobs are much better than the line worker jobs that the robots are replacing.

      Sure you have fewer "lose your hand in an industrial accident" kinds of jobs, and that is a problem for people who used to rely on those jobs instead of education. But it's better for the US employment situation than simply hiring a bunch of people in China. And productivity improvements are better for the population as a whole, even if it negatively affects those who end up being replaced by robots. I'm not sure what people with no skills will do when factories become more automated, but holding back productivity is probably not the answer.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    152. Re:Automation and unemployment by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The companies want to be able to say made in the US and get all the tax credits etc for making something in the US and creating jobs. But creating the actual jobs ... not so much. The US and the rest of the west needs to just admit they aren't competitive for most forms of manufacturing and train people for other things.

      I think this is the biggest argument for STEM education: we'll be a two tier work society those that are creative (engineers, computer programmers, designers etc) and those that work in stores selling stuff that the creative people invented and the Chinese manufactured. If you don't like a McJob you better start nerding it up.

    153. Re:Automation and Unemployment by cfulmer · · Score: 1

      That's a bit extreme. Of course some people still have jobs -- at minimum, you still need people to operate the machinery. The difference, though, is that the person who does this has far higher skills than the people who were sitting on an assembly line tightening the same bolt or screw day after day. And, you need people designing those machines; you need accountants, marketing people, operations specialists and . . . The fact that the act of manufacturing doesn't employ nearly as many people doesn't mean that there's no employment. It does mean that people will have to improve their skills if they want to find a job, because the jobs of tightening the same bolt day after day are all gone.

    154. Re:Automation and unemployment by khallow · · Score: 0, Troll

      So your solution to the greed of the "job creators" which is leading towards unsustainable wage disparities and high unemployment due to large-scale automation is to make it easier for them to get their fix by lowering employee benefits?

      Why do you think the answer should be anything but "yes"? US labor just isn't that value. One of the things that would make it more valuable is precisely dropping employee benefits and such things.

      GP was right, we do need a new economy to deal with the fact that people can't compete with robots anymore,

      I'm a licensed purveyor of unicorn farts and pixie dust. Everything your "new economy" needs to work just like you want it to work.

      Here's what I think the "new economy" will look like. A small group of "greedy job creators", a large group of parasitic leeches, who will eventually go extinct since they've lost the ability to manifest the new economy. Don't worry, it'll probably be quite humane via a policy of paying for sterilization.

      we've been putting hackish fixes on this tarted-up barter system for too long and it won't stay running much longer. Trying to make people cheaper than robots doesn't seem like a good short-term solution. Maybe instead we stop giving into the money addiction of the few?

      I wasn't proposing making people cheaper than robots as a short term solution, but a long term one. You'd have to supplement this with education and bionic augmentation (and perhaps much more of the transhumanist technology tree) so that people can compete with sentient AI.

      As to "giving into the money addiction", those people with that "addiction" do amazing things. It just isn't a problem. I'd rather go after actual problems than fantasy problems.

    155. Re:Automation and Unemployment by mrlibertarian · · Score: 1

      Eventually automation puts the starting rung out of reach of the average person and you are left with a mass of people unable to find employment anywhere in the economy, and limited in their intellectual capacity to be trained to ever get one of the scarce jobs that do exist.

      If a robot takes care of all of your needs, why do you need a job in the first place?

      You might reply, "But I don't have a robot." Okay, so go to to one of the employable people (scientists, artists, etc.) and say, "I notice that you happen to have an army of robots. Could you do me a small favor, and have one of your robots build me a robot? I will then take that robot and have it build robots for all of my friends, and anyone else who wants one. You can raise us all out of poverty, and you won't even have to a lift a single finger!" Given the large number of people who will have robots, I'm sure you will be able to find at least one person willing to do such a small, trivial favor for you.

      In a world of robots, only a small fraction of wealth is needed to meet the needs of the unemployable. There is no need for socialism.

      ...some sort of peaceful wealth redistribution system...

      There is no such thing as peaceful taxation.

    156. Re:Automation and unemployment by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      I can't think of a single one of the many PCs I owned in the past that lasted 5 years without having had to have multiple things replaced and/or repaired.

      I definitely like Apple's products. We have some Macs, some older iPhones and a few iPods. We also have a Windows machine and I have an Android phone.

      With that as my setup, I have to say that if you buy quality PC components they will last. Yes, my old 2004 G5 is still humming along as the kids' computer. My 2005 iBook G4 is still in use as my father-in-law's computer (with one repair due to baby drool). I haven't even had an itch to replace my 2009 MacBook Pro. But the HP workstation (similar in price to the G5 when new) from around 2006 is now acting as my FreeBSD zfs fileserver with only a fan gone bad. I only just swapped out the guts in a PC I built in 2005 - and the only reason I did that was because of my (bad decision) Windows 8 upgrade. My mother-in-law is still happily using a nice HP laptop that I chose for her from 2004 (with new memory). Sure, my mom blows through a Dell laptop every few years, but that's of the sub-$600 variety. You largely get what you pay for - Apple just doesn't try to compete in the "crappy" category.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    157. Re:Automation and Unemployment by cfulmer · · Score: 1

      I don't know about you, but as somebody who holds some Apple stock in my retirement investments, I'm happy if Apple is actually able to keep that $50. It means my investment, and that of millions of middle-class people like me, is worth more. Regardless, though, Apple still operates in a competitive environment even if you can differentiate their products from everybody else's. They sell more when prices go down. As a result, they'll keep some of that $50, and some of it will go into reduced prices.

    158. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Service jobs are going to go away too.

    159. Re:Automation and unemployment by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      You're putting the current economic system (and your worship of mythical Randian supermen) ahead of the civilization that economy is supposed to serve. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    160. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of what you listed is not Socialist, but rather the true function of government (core processes to use a term from the 90's). Roads and Bridges, Police and Fire at the minimum is what I pay taxes for. FDA, EPA and other oversight agencies are the purview of the Government as well. They set the rule book and play referee to make sure there is a level playing field for all involved.

      Public education (k-12, college, libraries) starts to get fuzzy as to whether this needs to be run by the government or private parties.

      Then you have things that are closer to socialism like Medicare and National Parks (damn Republicans, Grant-Yellowstone).

    161. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet you have access to the internet and free time during the day to read this site and respond to comments.

      Your father needs to look into Disability, it is part of Social Security.

    162. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      George Lucas already addressed all this in Star Wars. Robots will be everywhere, but they will have restraining bolts to limit their actions. Humans will still have a place as ship captains, Jedis, Ambassadors, rebel scum, bartenders, and evil overlords.

    163. Re:Automation and unemployment by Joah_from_Alberta · · Score: 0

      IMDb-- Fido

    164. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is the problem with that thinking. If a small percentage are the only producers and everyone lives off of taxing them and calling them names, how long will they continue? If somone not working has the same quality of life as someone working hard every day, how long will that hard worker continue?

      Currently we spend more per poor famiily on welfare than the median income. I'm not sure why people who make the median income or less are currently working because if they learn the welfare game good enough they can make more without that inconvient work schedule. You are proposing to move that bar even further up the income ladder.

      Where does the money come from once people are sick of having their money taken away by people calling them bigots every day? I already don't take side work for precisely that reason and I'm sure I'm not the only one. A 1099 for me means 50% Fedeal income tax rate because I have to pay the full 15% SS tax, lets just forget state and local taxes on top of that.

    165. Re:Automation and unemployment by Pieroxy · · Score: 2

      Are you out of 5th grade yet? The "no I win" argument isn't really going to cut it here.

      Since you mentioned "usability and other studies" you might want to substantiate your claim by giving a few links?

    166. Re:Automation and unemployment by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Or possibly, only Apple has figured out that it's all about cachet and cutesyness and not about making a substantially better product.

      Ya know, that's what a lot of people say... Until they own an Apple product.

    167. Re:Automation and Unemployment by doug141 · · Score: 1, Informative

      The way you worded your dad's social security made me wonder if you are aware that current old folks are getting much more than they put in. I've read they hit parity after only 4 years. I looked for a reference and instead found this one saying they average triple what they paid in. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/256212/medicare-and-social-security-what-you-pay-vs-what-you-will-get-maybe-veronique-de-rugy The comparison to people living like kings are a comparison not to present day rich, but to the rich back in the days before automation. Central heat, hot and cold indoor potable water, autos, etc.

    168. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir are very sadly misinformed that the current trends are sustainable without increasing the unemployment rate. So much of what we already build is BS junk that's sold through a bombardment of advertising. We really can't increase our consumption that much compared to what we already did. Without increased consumption, increases in productivity worsen the situation.
      Farm jobs we the first to START to be replaced by automation.
      Manufacturing was started soon after.
      Both farming and manufacturing still have a ways to go towards essentially complete automation.
      Service sector is next and has barely started.

      Manual labor is still around 50% of employment, and all of those jobs will go away. It isn't just farming and manufacturing. Food service and retail jobs will go away too.

    169. Re:Automation and unemployment by khallow · · Score: 1

      You're putting the current economic system (and your worship of mythical Randian supermen) ahead of the civilization that economy is supposed to serve.

      Why do you think there's anything wrong with how that economy serves that civilization? My bet is that all of your complaints will either be imaginary or due to government intervention (which I don't consider part of the economy). As to that latter point, let's give a couple of examples. US Social Security is allegedly a program for providing some level of support to people in their last years. It commonly is mislabeled as "retirement insurance".

      What it is in practice is a pyramid scheme that allowed Congress to spend hundreds of billions more per year for decades. And that spending hasn't been for investments that would make future payouts possible but the usual squandering of public funds at vast, nearly incomprehensible levels. That squandering also helped create most of those little problems you claim to be concerned about, like income inequity. Who'll have a better shot at Uncle Sam's sugar? You or the rich multinational business that does this for a living?

      In other words, the economy works fine, whether you want it to or not. This "tax the rich" fad is just more struggling in the net. The wealthy parasites will play this game better than you ever will and they'll do just fine while you'll be suffering in your "new economy". It's time for you to stop being part of the problem.

    170. Re:Automation and unemployment by macs4all · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Phrogman: While I agree with your comments wholeheartedly, I just HAD to do this little correction:

      "If you are willing to settle for things which [are] frustrating to use, unreliable, generally user surly, have an UI design with very little thought put into it by comparison, and can be considered stylish as long as you were blind from birth, then there seems to be an ample supply." Otherwise, by an Apple.

      Sorry, couldn't resist!

    171. Re:Automation and unemployment by macs4all · · Score: 0

      Well there is the little fact that the Apple products are easier to use, generally more reliable, very user friendly, have a great UI design, and are of course extremely stylish

      It is a fact that Apple products are not easier to use or more reliable or more user-friendly or have better UI design, all of this has been proven through usability and other studies. Stylish is a matter of opinion, though it does seem to hold out. It is a fact that you are an iFanboy.

      Cite these mythical "usability and other studies".

    172. Re:Automation and unemployment by khallow · · Score: 1

      Oops, forgot to stick in a second example. Let's consider defense spending.

      There should be some level of defense spending simply because there's always someone around who wants to take things from you by force. Once again, the large, multinational business plays this game well and they're probably responsible for most of the problems that make defense spending so expensive, such as a chronic inability to fix requirements, huge and costly standards and requirements, big, expensive systems (such as two billion dollar stealth bombers), and contractors who cost several times what their predecessors, military workers (cooks, laundry, basic maintenance, janitors, etc) used to cost.

      It's the same sort of game. A crisis happens and scares the public into spending more on the service. That new level of spending becomes the new normal. As does that new lack of accountability and economic sense.

    173. Re:Automation and unemployment by macs4all · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      People do sell similar products cheaper.

      "Similar" in the same way as a Yugo and a Ferrari are "Similar" devices; only due to the fact that they are both "cars".

    174. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The amount of jobs created by automation is lower than the amount of jobs that would be created if automation wasn't used. Do you honestly think we can automate everything and still give hundreds of millions of people jobs? Eventually there just won't be anything to do.

      But automation is still a good thing. Useless jobs shouldn't exist.

    175. Re:Automation and Unemployment by onyxruby · · Score: 1, Informative

      It's from people like my ex-wife. She committed fraud to get on welfare permanently. She gets $600 a month in cash. She gets food covered by the government. She gets medical insurance paid for by the government. She has a brand new three bedroom townhouse that is paid for by the government for housing. Her expenses consist of nothing but her car costs.

      She get's secondary benefits as well. All told she gets $2500 plus in benefits every month and doesn't work or contribute to society in anyway. She routinely takes vacations and weekend trips to places like resorts. She also works freelance cash jobs that pay cash and supplement her income knowing her fraud will never be prosecuted. She has more disposable income every month than I do and I work a full time and part time job. She lives a life of government paid leisure which she feels entitled too.

      She's a welfare queen and blatantly abuses the system knowing that no one will ever hold her accountable. People talk about welfare queens because they know welfare queens.

    176. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha I would love to see a usability study comparing Windows 8 to OS X 10.8.

    177. Re:Automation and unemployment by khallow · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is that the current system of Employer Provide healthcare cannot work, right? That is is impossible for individual companies to provide reasonable healthcare plans for their employees? I thought Private Enterprise could do everything better? No? Well, maybe we need Universal Healthcare then?

      The US already has universal health care. It just doesn't always work pretty (for self insurance and ER-based care). We could just make that work better, but no one seems interested.

      And there's huge interference from governments at the federal and state levels (for example, supply restrictions on hospitals and medical professionals, huge regulatory hurdles for businesses producing medical products, and the tax break for employer health insurance which merely serves to drive up the cost of heath insurance and care).

      All I can say is that if you were planning to make health care expensive, you wouldn't do much different, even with Obamacare which claimed to reduce medical care costs, but won't due to its regulatory burden and subsidies.

    178. Re:Automation and unemployment by ultranova · · Score: 0

      I mean, if the "workers" can't afford to buy the widgets, where's the growth in the economy produced by the" value creation"?

      The rich get richer. The poor, being unnecessary for producing their toys anymore, die. In other words, a Randian utopia awaits us.

      Let me rephrase: in extreme, if there aren't any buyers, what meaning the "economy" term still retains?

      None. But that's inevitable anyway, since the more production is decoupled from human labour, the poorer match the classical concept of exchanging goods or services becomes. At the extreme of complete automation, you either socialize the machines and distribute everyone production credits on a daily(?) basis, or accept that whoever owns the machines is the de facto king.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    179. Re:Automation and unemployment by Truekaiser · · Score: 1

      Value creation is indeed a zero sum game, when the world it is in is zero sum.

    180. Re:Automation and unemployment by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      One thing about technological progress is the more new stuff you have, the more new stuff you can do. And in all the phases of doing the new stuff you need people. They all need to readjust and learn to help with the new stuff, but you still need them.

      The limit, of course, are the natural resources, but that's another story.

    181. Re:Automation and unemployment by turkeydance · · Score: 1
    182. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Imbrondir · · Score: 2

      I've heard this point about lacking ability of the general public to serve 'automation jobs' quite a few times, and you may very well be right.

      However I wonder if people 100 years ago imagined the things the general public are now able to these days. For instance not only read and write, but operate complex machinery that instantly communicates their thoughts across the entire world. Yeah most of those thoughts may be youtube comment quality, but that's besides the point.

    183. Re:Automation and unemployment by hEpen · · Score: 1

      Production worker or "blue collar" work was firmly in the middle class via unions. I don't suppose I would expect a bunch of tech workers to understand what a union is for, though. Especially since in the US that job class doesn't even allow overtime.

    184. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I figured I was the only person who had watched that. Best zombie movie evar.

    185. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can produce so much food that we have to throw away or burn a significant fraction of it to prevent our food storage from overflowing

      What?

      "World grain reserves are so dangerously low that severe weather in the United States or other food-exporting countries could trigger a major hunger crisis next year, the United Nations has warned. Failing harvests in the US, Ukraine and other countries this year have eroded reserves to their lowest level since 1974. The US, which has experienced record heatwaves and droughts in 2012, now holds in reserve a historically low 6.5% of the maize that it expects to consume in the next year, says the UN. "We've not been producing as much as we are consuming. That is why stocks are being run down. Supplies are now very tight across the world and reserves are at a very low level, leaving no room for unexpected events next year," said Abdolreza Abbassian, a senior economist with the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO)."

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/oct/14/un-global-food-crisis-warning

    186. Re:Automation and unemployment by poity · · Score: 2

      GGP fears these automated plants displacing mostly imaginary workers. Few people in the US are doing manufacturing assembly work, much less the trivial work required of these robots. If anything they will expand the demand for engineers, maintenance workers, and more importantly the secondary fields of trade and distribution. It will also lower the price of assembly line robots (assuming they're US-made). Add to that the additional tax revenue from an expanding economy. Addressing wage inequality is a largely political matter, which I assume would become more palatable to opponents/more achievable for proponents when the economy is going up rather than down. Well, this can get you there.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    187. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clearly spelling and grammar has already rotted away.

    188. Re:Automation and unemployment by cloudmaster · · Score: 1

      They've got robot soda machines at the drive-through already. Those things are neat.

    189. Re:Automation and unemployment by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Why do you think there's anything wrong with how that economy serves that civilization?

      Wow...because I'm not a feudalist? It's a horrible system that harvests the lions' share of productivity from the masses (who haven't seen ANY return on those improvements in decades) to enrich a small leisure class to somewhere between Ludicrous Wealth and Plaid Dollars. This is happening just about everywhere, including places that don't have the US' pet problems. Find a way to blame that on government. It happened in the first Gilded Age too.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    190. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://pmpaspeakingofprecision.com/2010/08/31/us-manufacturing-employment-as-a-percentage-of-total-employment/

      The reason so few are employed in manufacturing is because of the steady drop over the last 60 years. This is due to outsourcing and automation. Manufacturing was the major work source for people who couldn't find work otherwise. The system just doesn't give people priority. The business management book I'm reading at the moment sums it up, American business is primarily about profit with little relative concern for people needs.

      What we really need, it to biuld ourselves a slave nation of humanoid robots, conjur up a sharing algorithm for the profits among the human population and think of ways to stay constructive and not go insane from bordom and have to turn to nerve/mind numbing subtances to keep from turning into who knows what.

    191. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rockoon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The present economy is growing in leaps and bounds leaving workers in the dust.

      How is this insightful? Its wrong.

      Our GDP growth is currently a dismal 1.7% annual.

      Government spending is growing by leaps and bounds though.. but thats clearly not what he meant.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    192. Re:Automation and unemployment by sjames · · Score: 1

      You need either people or automated systems.

    193. Re:Automation and unemployment by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      About time this discussion has some summon sense. Automation doesn't take away jobs in the long term, rather it allows civilization to focus on higher pursuits like art, science, and engineering.

      Every single time there is a new technology that triggers frictional unemployment, some labor union or other "feel good" lobby tries to nip it in the bud. The buggy whip industry tried to ban cars from the city. Where would we be now if they got their way? Invariably we would have a much slower economy and much more horse shit to deal with.

      Taxing away the assets of the wealthy as has been suggested is only counterproductive. The wealthy are few, yet the top 10% of them already pay more than 70% of taxes, and they are the ones with the capital to drive the economy. We already see all the time what happens when you give middle class or poor people lots of money: they spend it idly until its gone. Don't believe me? Then how come hardly any lottery winners ever stay rich? They blow their money away almost as fast as they won it.

      But no, the solution to all of the world's problems is a complacent robin hood society, technological development be damned! And socialists wonder why there has never been a successful "currency free" commune.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    194. Re:Automation and unemployment by sjames · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, many at the top now stop thinking at L'Hôpital's rule and don't consider that unemployed means you can't afford anything above free for very long.

      I agree that some measures involving redistribution will have to be taken. I also expect that a shortening of the work week will be called for in order to distribute the work that needs doing more evenly.

    195. Re:Automation and unemployment by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      France already tried that. It caused a drop in GDP, and only increased unemployment, just as many economists predicted. Also, France is constantly trying new "robin hood" tactics to sate their population. Every time they do so, it has cost them more revenue than it brought in, and has managed to shut down segments of their economy while increasing unemployment.

      As somebody said earlier, 80% of Americans worked on farms in the 1900s. So why don't we have 80% unemployment right now? Automation grows the economy, not the other way around.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    196. Re:Automation and unemployment by sjames · · Score: 1

      Well, there we have it. The prototype goes into production and even though automation makes things cheaper, prices stay high.

    197. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No need for a jobless person to purchase a phone. If you're at 135% of the poverty level or less or getting federal or state assistance, they are FREE!

      http://www.fcc.gov/lifeline

    198. Re:Automation and unemployment by Creepy · · Score: 0

      Wrong - government spending has in fact gone down (at least this past year and in 2010, but had an uptick in 2011 - and yes, that is the conservative think tank heritage foundation, so not liberal news). It has grown quite a bit since Obama took office, however.

      When military and entitlements (you know, stuff like Social Security) consume 81%+ of your budget, there isn't much to work with. And actually, those military numbers aren't entirely correct because military contracting often comes out of the discretionary fund. That said, I saw a pie chart of military spending and over half of that was entitlements as well (pensions and health care for veterans). Without new revenue or cuts to entitlements, we're going to be buried in debt for a long time.

    199. Re:Automation and unemployment by Creepy · · Score: 1

      sorry - here's the link

    200. Re:Automation and unemployment by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 1

      That seems a little far fetched considering that Apple was the company that cared enough about human interface to come up with the Human Inteface Guidelines in the first place. I will Google for some of theses studies but if you have any links please post them.

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    201. Re:Automation and Unemployment by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      If everything in life were made by robots, then economies themselves would be obsolete. Scarcity no longer exists, wealth is no longer needed.

      That day will most likely never truly come.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    202. Re:Automation and unemployment by sjames · · Score: 1

      We only need so many doctors, dentists, etc. Meanwhile, as the supply side is flooded with new entrants (those who had the necessary aptitude and somehow managed to afford the necessary expensive education), their income also falls. Even moreso since there will be a growing population of permanently unemployed.

    203. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 2

      The workers that are being replaced aren't imaginary, they work for FoxConn in China...or something analogous. Most of your other points seem valid, if parochial. But it's not at all clear how this contributes to what you correctly identify as a "largely political matter". There isn't an obvious natural limit to "how rich" and individual can be, as there is to "how poor" he can be. And the extremely rich in the US are already so extremely much richer than ther poor, that there's no clear reason for not acting NOW to decrease the disparity. This kind of great disparity is dangerous to democratic governments...if not as dangerous as allowing corporations to be considered to be people. (But note that it's only dangerous to allow corporations to be considered people because they are rich. If they were no richer than the average citizen, then they would constitute no danger...unless, of course, you go full bore and grant them the vote.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    204. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Of course, there are many thousands of people still involved in the production of these devices. Final assembly is just one small part of what it takes to get an iPhone from inside a human brain, all the way to store shelves.

      This year.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    205. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, poor you! All you "get" is subsidized student loans that you voluntarily chose to take out, and free healthcare and dozens of other veterans' benefits for the rest of your life. What a tragedy.

    206. Re:Automation and unemployment by Pieroxy · · Score: 2

      The middle class is the only class the government can get money from. The rich hire armies of lawyers to find all the loopholes or relocate, the poor have no money and it's bad press to get from the poor anyways.

    207. Re:Automation and unemployment by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 2

      It's OK. There won't even be an economy if there are no people left who can afford to buy the products.

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    208. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Most people can't be trained to be software engineers. Most people can't be trained to be scientists. Most people can't be trained to be artists of any quality."

      Why? Are software engineers genetically different from artists? Are certain people predestined to be scientists and education or training can not change it.

    209. Re:Automation and unemployment by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      Uhrm, automation is going to replace jobs in all fields (just differently, in different fields). E.g. picture self-driving cars. Sorting packages. Packing shelves. Flipping burgers. Construction industry - e.g. automated building techniques. Look at every job around you, and ask, would a robot be able to do that in 15 years time. Then look ahead 30 years. This is going to be the biggest disruption to social economic structures since the Industrial Revolution. We're in uncharted territory, we don't know how this is going to play out ... there are significant parallels with the Industrial Revolution but there are also crucial differences.

    210. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 2

      You have a good point. Socially important services should not be dependent upon holding a job. Health care is a socially important service, so a high basic level of health care should be available to everyone, without question. (Note that I did NOT say "all citizens". Public health depends on everyone being healthy. Sick people spread sickness.)

      Dense populations have different requirements than diffusely spread populations. Until around 1900, most people lived in the country-side, and we still haven't psychologically adjusted to the changes required by the changed circumstances. Our (i.e., the U.S.'s) current social policies seem determined to reduce the population by the reintroduction of various plagues. Several that had previously been nearly wiped out have already reappeared. Whooping cough is just the most recent that I've noticed. I'm sorry, but parents should NOT be allowed to refuse to have the children that they send to school vaccinated, and they MUST make provision for the children to be educated. Etc.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    211. Re:Automation and unemployment by mysidia · · Score: 1

      I think you're missing the previous poster's point, that the chinese won't be able to buy goods in general because the former workers will be unemployed and have no income.

      What makes you think they won't still have factories, with human workers trying to compete against robot-run factories?

      Yeah, humans may cost more, but they are more adaptable to solving new problems -- robots will be expensive to completely retool, as products change.

    212. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or we give up on the idea that the only way to pay for things is to work for them.

      You mean something like a patron-client arrangement, where you suck up to a rich person in hopes that he'll buy you dinner?

    213. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Happy ending?"
      "No thanks Massag-o-tron 3000, I got to go."
      "Next time then?"
      "Perhaps.."

      Some time later:

      *sobbing* "Don't worry Massag-o-tron, one day he'll stay... one day he'll stay..."

    214. Re:Automation and Unemployment by ohnocitizen · · Score: 1

      Hahaha, true: "My logical abilities *is* atrocious". Your proof are MOST compelling my good man, MOST COMPELLING INDEED.

    215. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I think you are either very optimistic, or operating on a very short time frame. Unemployment is already over 20%...though how much over is impossible to determine, due to the way the statistics are finagled.

      I expect that it will hit 50% unemployment within the decade. 75% soon afterwards. The final several percent will hold onto their jobs because of "social engineering" skills. E.g., top management is unlikely to decide to replace itself....though they may arrange that they have no replacement. I.e., it's quite likely that totally automated corporations will arrise because top management has either died off or lost interest in holding on. The first such should show up within the decade. It will probably fail, but in doing so solve many of the problems that such a system creates for itself. The second or third will probably succeed.

      And some jobs will hang on because they are legally required. BART trains have train operators because they are legally required to. The system could be run, probably more efficiently, as a totally automated system. Not only today, but a decade ago. (Well, by totally automated here I'm not including maintenance, etc. I'm talking about the job of train operator.)

      P.S.: Have you noticed the decrease in the number of grocery checkout clerks? Many of the registers are clusters overseen by one clerk. Sometimes jobs get eliminated by redesigning what the job consists of. But they still get redesigned to eliminate jobs or increase production...and in the limit this means all jobs are eliminated, though not this year.

      My expectation is that within 50 years there will be no job that could not be done better by a robot, or possibly by a computer. 75 years would surprise me. This doesn't mean that all jobs will be eliminated, but rather that there will be no ECONOMIC reason for the jobs to exist.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    216. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Why would it be different than the last 200 years, where people displaced from their jobs by technology continually find more useful jobs?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    217. Re:Automation and Unemployment by BeanThere · · Score: 2

      There is no need for socialism.

      The problem is that "everyone could own a robot" doesn't necessarily solve problems at an individual level ... e.g. the average person needs to eat and your personal robot isn't likely going to be the one growing your food, your food will be produced by an army of agricultural robots producing food somewhere else on an industrial scale. Your personal robot might theoretically be able to put furniture together or do construction in your yard or put together an iPhone but won't be producing or mining the raw materials ... you'll need robot miners to mine raw materials, process them, transport them etc.

      There is no such thing as peaceful taxation

      That is true, but we may have a difficult problem to solve here.

    218. Re:Automation and Unemployment by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      FACT: Free time is a GOOD thing

      Hrm, try tell that to the unemployed.

    219. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      They've been facing the same threats from technology for the last 200 years. Why has the number of jobs available grown over that time, and why do you think the current trend will be any different?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    220. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      What time scale are you thinking on?
      For 5 years you're practically certain to be correct.
      For 10 years, you should expect to see major changes.
      For 15 years, the number of mechanical engineers needed will be drastically reduced, and only the highly skilled need apply.
      For 20 years, the number of mechanical engineers needed has be yet more drastically reduced, and the employers are screaming because they can't find enough sufficiently talented people.
      For 25 years, no new mechanical engineers are being hired. Current ones are being encouraged to retire.
      For 30 years, there is no need for a human in that profession.

      Perhaps my time table is a bit off...but probably mainly by being too regular. I wouldn't bet whether it was fast or slow.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    221. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's dumb to consider people who don't want to work in the unemployment statistics. Furthermore, you should really look up your numbers instead of guessing, then you'll look smarter.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    222. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Or we all find more useful jobs, the same as we've done for the last 200 years as technology displaced the work we've done. Seriously, we've seen this before, and it turned out ok.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    223. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Thought about. It's not an important correlation.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    224. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      There are NO jobs that can't be automated. NONE. Not one.

      If you spend 15 years learning to follow a profession, you can expect that by the time you've finished learning, the profession is obsolete.

      Now there will be jobs that won't easily be replaced by a robot...though you might be surprised. To take one of your examples, a human bartender will be a rarity, and only seen in high priced clubs, unless there is a legal requirement, or he's the owner. But that's not in the next 5 years. More likely 15, though possibly 10.

      Everything depends on the time scale at which you look at things. You won't see bus drivers replaced in the next 5 years, but you might see them replaced in 10 years.

      There's already a "robot" in Japan that frequently fools people into thinking it's human...and it has NO intelligence at all, and can't move away from the desk. It's just a torso attached to a desk, but it looks totally human, even to the extent of breathing naturally. This was 5-10 years ago. I'm not sure that particular "robot" is even a telefactor, i.e., I'm not sure it has the capability of remote control. It was one of several academic experiments. (Note that I said "several". I only know of a very few, of course. But I only hear about those that news reporters find worth mentioning.)

      In 20 years we should expect that the only jobs held by humans exist for non-economic reasons, like legal requirements, or power vested by law (as, e.g., the owner of a bar).

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    225. Re:Automation and unemployment by dave562 · · Score: 1

      As long as we're focusing on the negatives, lets not forget about all of the transportation jobs that will be lost. Without the need to ship the products from China back to the States to sell them, those ship crews are going to have to find something else to transport. Or maybe the ships will sit idle. Think of those poor fuel producers whose diesel will not be consumed. Then the poor environmentalists who will have less to complain about due to the reduced carbon emissions.

      Wait, hang on... this is not a zero sum equation. There could be some good in here. I'm going to stop before I become too positive about Apple.

    226. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      P.S.: Note I said expect. This time scale is definitely not dependable. It probably won't get to that point in less than 20 years. I'd be surprised if it took 40 years. 30 is a reasonable best guess. But we need to be prepared for it happening in 20 years, so that's what we should expect.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    227. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      One reason that prices in such things stay high is because of vandalism and maintenance. As those problems are handled, prices will drop until they compete effectively with non-automated businesses. Then the prices will stop dropping. This is known as "all the market will bear".

      But do notice that you can't buy a head of lettuce from such a machine. Not this year. Not unless it's carefully pre-packaged, and even then only from a specialty machine that dispenses refridgerated items. This isn't even a prototype of an automated convenience store, which will probably be a merger between an automated warehouse and an automated teller, but with a full keyboard AND a speech recognition input. It won't be an expansion of the automated sandwich machines.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    228. Re:Automation and unemployment by bitspotter · · Score: 1

      Business don't chase customers - they chase dollars.

      GDP isn't a measure of how many people buy things; it's a measure of how fast dollars are spent. Automation doesn't slow down demand or sales in itself. It jsut shifts the profile of the most lucrative target markest. Businesses will just adapt what they produce to suit the needs of those with the money. If those people are fewer and wealthier, then so be it. Automation itself does not threaten the economy as whole. The GDP can continue to grow while actual people fail to benefit.

      So, yes - human beings do indeed get impoverished and put out to pasture.

      -

      Then again, I can't help but notice that wealthy people loan and invest more money than they spend. Wealthier people do spend more, but the ratio of spending (which fuels the GDP) to investments (which don't) decreases with greater wealth. In terms of actually //selling// goods and services to them, they might indeed be a less lucrative market segment in general, especially as the population of that segment shrinks.

    229. Re:Automation and unemployment by CanadianRealist · · Score: 2

      The workers aren't imaginary, they're in China. Well, maybe that makes them imaginary to some people in the U.S.

      There's much less labour in designing, building and operating the automated plants than in building regular ones and then running them with people. And even though the people creating the automated plants will be better paid, the end cost of production will still be lower.

      But now those people in China are going to need new jobs. And there are probably still jobs in the U.S. that could be outsourced to China in order to lower costs. In which case the displaced workers are actually other Americans.

    230. Re:Automation and unemployment by bitspotter · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because we made a transition to a socialist economy. We called it the New Deal. Also, massive government spending and entitlement programs known as World War II and the GI Bill.

      These policies not only forestalled the problem of automation, they lead to the most propsperous generation of in human history. And now that they're being steadily dismantled, goodness - here comes poverty again! It's like 1937 all over again.

      The Luddites were right - their livelihoods were devastated, right on schedule, and as predicted.

      It's a bit mind-boggling to hear people use the excuse that "it's never happened before", when the reason it's never happened before happens to be the policy positions they oppose.

    231. Re:Automation and Unemployment by bitspotter · · Score: 1

      A jobless person can't buy a cheap iphone at any price. But their relatives, who do have jobs, will buy one for all their unemployed relatives.

      Problem solved!

    232. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Shortening of the work week isn't even a good short term solution, except for commodity jobs.

      Please note that which jobs are needed will be continually varying, and not in a monotonically decreasing fashion, but currently lots of specialty jobs aren't fillable by sufficiently skilled people, wereas many unskilled jobs have a superabundance of qualified people. Which jobs fit into which category changes with each change in automation, but there will always be, until near the end, some jobs for which there aren't enough skilled people, even at 60 hours a week. And working that long degrades the skills of the worker. For highly skilled worker, coerced working of over 35 hours/week degrades the skills (though inspiration may strike, and even 70 hours/week then isn't too much).

      OTOH, the basic jobs need to be done, and for those a shorter work week is a reasonable solution...but only if it provides a reasibale living wage. And be aware that as automation progresses, more and more jobs will fall into this "basic" category, where there are more qualified practitioners than there are jobs available. Also consider that if commuting is involved, short work days are highly unfavorable. But if two people share the same work space at different times, this causes it's own problems. 30 hours/week if reasonable for many desk jobs, if one divides it into 3 8-hour days and one 4-hour day. That allows two people to share the same work-space at half a week each. IF there are enough of that kind of job. Which will be a time-varying function.

      Note also that this makes pensions problematic. Since the amount of work needed is time varying, lots of people preparing of a job currently in high need can expect that after only a few years, they won't be needed. Whoops! Who pays for the preparation? It was *needed* at the time they prepared, but in just a few years it has become obsolete. This makes a large investment unreasonable. But highly trained people are needed, and will be needed. You just can predict exactly which skills will be needed for how long. What happens when an automated brain surgeon hits the market? It took multiple decades and multiple thousands of dollars for the current experts to develop their skills, Some are transferable to related specialties, but by no means all, and guess what ... the same transfer of skills is happening in the robot surgeon designers, and fewer of their skill have changed. So by the time the surgeon finishes preparing for his new specialty, it's already obsolete.

      Do you think this projection is fantastic? But currently brain surgeons are working through telefactors which note every move they make, and eliminate slips and nervous twitches. Otherwise brain surgery would be much less safe. And they RECORD what is done. So any AI that can extract those patterns could repeat the operation. Currently they aren't good enough to decide when to do which action, and the proper language isn't shared by the robots and the doctors to allow the surgeon to say sever the _ghjklh_ and then rejoin the pieces with a _9opikl_ inserted between them to limit spiking. But it will be. And then the next higher level of patterns will need to be learned. And the next. It will take awhile, but the process has already been started.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    233. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      You need either people or better automated systems than we currently have.

      You probably assumed this, but many of the readers seem to be presuming that the current state of the art will continue to be the state of the art. (Either that, or you think our current systems are a lot more advanced than they actually are.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    234. Re:Automation and Unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 1

      I assure you that spending thirty-five bucks a month on mobile communications is far from extravagant living large.

      I didn't say anything about "extravagant"; by definition, nothing poor people have is ever "extravagant". I objected to your implication that poor people can't even afford modern technology; in fact, they can, and that's a measure of progress. You don't need to be rich anymore to be connected or get an education. Things that were accessible only to the ultra-rich when I grew up are now in the hands of people even at the poverty line.

    235. Re:Automation and unemployment by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      Self-service petrol stations are having a renaissance: by filling up a customer's tank for them they are free to go inside and browse the store and potentially buy things more profitable than fuel.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    236. Re:Automation and Unemployment by bitspotter · · Score: 1

      You know what the poor's biggest expense is, then?

      Rent.

      Do expect automation to produce more than marginal reductions in the cost of real estate?

    237. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eventually the rich has to realize that poor people can't buy their stuff. So if they keep making products no one can afford then they got a serious problem.

    238. Re:Automation and unemployment by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      It's different in one key way: Human labor is going to be completely and entirely obsoleted by machines (with the exception of, yeah, yeah, things like prostitutes) - i.e. for the first time in the history of human economies, machines will be better (i.e. more efficient) than humans for nearly any task a human could potentially do. Broadly, there ultimately won't be a "more useful job" that couldn't be done more efficiently by yet another smart robot (or rather, the percentage of jobs humans are better at will become very small, eventually reduced only to jobs that we prefer done by humans only because of irrational facets of being human ... e.g. prostitution or waiting tables).

    239. Re:Automation and unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 1

      or we give up on the idea that the only way to pay for things is to work for them.

      That's exactly what a market economy gives you: as robots produce more and more stuff, the stuff gets cheaper and you need to work less and less for it.

      And that's been happening all around you, you just aren't noticing. Many things that used to cost tons of money you can now get effectively free if you want to: Internet access, phone calls, classic literature, tons of entertainment, courses and lectures, etc.

    240. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The free market can still work in a post-human-labor society simply by owning a sufficient portion of the production capital itself. If I own shares in a robotic farm, a robotic trucking company, and Apple I can have my dividends paid in food and iphones delivered to me by the trucking company.

      The obvious problem is that 90% of the people are stupid enough to sell their stock for a quick buck which will then inflate into worthlessness when the next robotic factory opens. Even some of the smart ones will eventually make poor investments and drop below the poverty line with little hope of recovery. The government will have to force people to own enough nontransferable stock in companies that produce necessities to prevent their ultimate starvation or privation, which is essentially socialism.

    241. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you need to qualify what you consider a job. You clearly don't mean a clerk at Wallmart or McDonalds. They can't afford any of those things.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    242. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That doesn't sound too much different. The jobs that 90% of the people were doing on the planet at one time have already become obsoleted. And yet the number of jobs have only increased since then.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    243. Re:Automation and unemployment by larkost · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your sited fact that we are at tle lowest participation rate since WWII is incorrect, as proof go to this page and then adjust the graphs to show the max timeline:

      http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet

      We are on our way down, but still have not hit the 1978 numbers again (62.5%). Of course these numbers don't take in to account the large social change that has happened over time with women in the workforce: the move from mothers expected to be at home to the "norm" of two-income households.

      That all being said: we are definately on a long-term course to the unworkability of a capitalist society (much along the lines that Marx predicted, but not on the timeline he expected). But I don't think we are anywhere close to knowing what that course is going to look like.

    244. Re:Automation and unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      One other thing you've got to have on that list to make it work long-term is free birth-control. Actually, even that won't suffice, but it will help. It really needs to be something more along the lines of the plan enacted by China.

      OTOH, that's long term, and things will change so radically within the next 50 years, that planning for the long term may be unreasonable.

      P.S.: Full employment with a living wage for everyone *IS* possible. But the social policies required to cause it to happen are quite unlikely. NOBODY has been proposing them. They would include not only measures to reduce the amount of a "living wage", but inducements for employers to employ more people. And positive penalties for not being employed. And automation would still eliminate jobs, it just wouldn't reduce employment.
      P.P.S.: Note that I don't consider that kind of social policy desireable. It would give those defined as employers too much control. I don't *like* giving the government that much control, but I see no way to avoid it. To also give that much control to employers is *really* repugnant.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    245. Re:Automation and unemployment by lavaface · · Score: 1

      The solution is grant capital stakes to more of the population. James Albus, an engineer who worked on automation and foresaw this in the 70s, described a system to achieve this that he called People's Capitalism. The basic idea is that the government should invest in cutting edge research and then socialize a portion of the efficiency gains, giving a dividend check to all citizens that would grow over time. Instead of laying the groundwork for massive improvements in machine vision, biofuels, pharmaceuticals, etc. and handing the keys over to private industry to privatize the gains, the government should get a better return. Self-driving cars and biodiesel are two prime examples of DARPA seeding money to get development going, then essentially handing over the research to private companies to refine and commercialize. His book, People's Capitalism is available for free download here. It's worthy of greater attention.

    246. Re:Automation and Unemployment by MakyoDetector · · Score: 1

      1. Grinding attrition to reduce their numbers through geographic isolation (prisons, slums, ghettos), violent crime (police abandon these areas and leave them to be ruled by gangs), and various poverty related causes of death (famine, malnutrition, lack of healthcare).
      2. Revolt and forcefully take enough to survive from those who have surplus resources
      3. Get folded into some sort of peaceful wealth redistribution system that provides for their needs and allows them to reach their personal potential, become educated up to their ability, raise a family, and live with dignity.

      Good post. I believe of those options #1 is the most likely; the surveillance society will be perfected soon and it will be too late to revolt when killbots are patrolling the streets.

      There is one more possibility under capitalism, though: service jobs and entertainment. The kinds of jobs where people can compete with robots - because they can elicit emotional responses that robots can't. Prostitutes and gladiators are canonical examples... so if you're starving you can always go to the Arena and duke it out with another pencil neck for a hot meal!

      --
      Just this infinitely recurring zero floats into view.
    247. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that even if it yields a desireable end point, the transition can be very rough. The reason the Luddites got violent is that al lot of them were starving. Many of them died. Saying "The next generation will have things better." isn't very convincing when your kids are dying.

      You are right, we need a change, but it's got to include supporting those who don't benefit from the productivity increases.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    248. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The price of techie goodies has gone down. The price of food and shelter has gone up. Which has the greater effect?

      The last time I looked at the price of an apartment I was shocked. And it wasn't even in a decent part of town.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    249. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do pray tell who this feat was accomplished. Inquiring minds want to know.

    250. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet how many people here are supporting sports franchises of various sorts, all of whose players are making near 1% or higher wages?

    251. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      How large a garden? How is it arranged? When he's not feeling well, can it survive his not tending it? Does he need to drive to get to it?

      Perhaps you need to think a bit more carefully. Being a commercial scale gardener is hard work. Growing a few tomatoes, carrots, onions, cucumbers, squash, etc. is easy. Especially if you get someone to make you raised beds.

      (Mind you, I have my doubts as to it's economic benefits. Unless the water is free. When my father checked, he figured we were spending more for water than it would cost to purchase the produce we used.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    252. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do pray tell HOW this feat was accomplished.

    253. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of that isn't socialism, idiot. It is civil order and the commons. Socialism is a central managed economy that controls production and consumption--in other words making sure everyone has a piece of the pie. It might sound dandy, but just handing out pie often has the effect of making the pie eaters doing nothing more than sit there with a fork

    254. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Well, FWIW, in the city in which I live one of the more common crimes is assaulting someone walking down the street using an iPad and stealing it. Whether they usually use it themselves or resell it I don't know. Nor to I know the blackmarket price of an iPad.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    255. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you pay for those socialist programs with a dwindling private sector tax base?

    256. Re:Automation and unemployment by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Why do you think they hit the "nuke" button in the global thermonuclear patent war? Other companies do make similarly functional, easy to use and stylish products at a lower price.

      Sure they probably could have got away with making the iPhone thinner again this year, but that's not the way they do things.

      Not sure if you are joking there... They made it very slightly thinner and lighter, but broke maps and the camera in the process and didn't really add anything else new. Passbook? There were dozens of apps on both iOS and Android to do that already. No HD screen, no NFC... Yeah, that isn't the way to do things.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    257. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Actually, I think they are. Different people definitely have different skill sets, and these don't seem to be freely interchangable. E.g., I've never mastered elegant longhand, and I've tried for decades (admittedly, recently my attempts have been quite sporadic). I also lack the ability to recognize people after meeting them once, and many people seem to have that ability.

      Additionally, while I can, if I exert myself, create quite good artistic renderings of natural objects, and can't *enjoy* doing that. And I'm not particularly creative, as I exert my skills in creating a "sufficiently close illusion". I'm also not *really* good at naturalistic illustration, as I observed by watching someone who was good at the illustration produce a work in a day that I couldn't have produced no matter how long I worked at it. But I'm a much better than average programmer. (Again, by no means in the genius class.)

      Then again, I'm a lousy personnel manager. I'm much too hands off, and can't bring myself to supervise. This is all right when the other person is self-motivated, but when they aren't I don't notice. And again, I don't seem to be able to develop this skill.

      One could argue nature vs. nurture, but it doesn't really matter. It could be nurture, but it's fixed.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    258. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Ummmmm....
      We reached that point a decade or so ago. Jobs have been destroyed faster than they were created ever since the computer started replacing clerks rather then replacing calculating mathematicians. The rate has been increasing.

      For that matter, equating a job at McDonalds with a job at a local greasy spoon is not a fair competition. The local greasy spoon is a much better job, and also pays better and gives you better long term job security.

      FWIW, my projections indicate that in another 50 years there won't be ANY jobs for people that can't be done cheaper and better by an automated system. Whether that a good endpoint or a bad one depends entirely on the social policy decisions that we make during the intermediate period.
      So not only are not enough new jobs being created, but the quality of the jobs that are being created is severely decreasing. They pay less, they have fewer benefit, and they have less job security.

      Now it's true that this pattern is only detectable over the last 50-60 years, and it started off quite slowly, but it's been increasing....I think monotonically increasing, and definitely increasing at an increasing rate. So my suspicion is that it's a permanent feature. And note that I'm not one of the ones who has been adversely affected by this yet.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    259. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Why do you believe that? A robot composer has alread been mistaken for .... I can't remember whether it was Brahms or Beetoven ... by a jury of music critics. This was a double-blind test. There were actually three composers, but I can't remember who the other was.

      So. Computers can play elegant chess at the world championship level, computers can compose music at the world class level. Computers can solve mathematics at the world class level. Computers can play Jephrody at the world class level. Computers can probably paint pictures at the world class level (albeit they seem to currently have a limited range). My hesitation over this last category is that I don't know of any specific rating that has been done.

      So what do you mean by this creative thing that computers can't do? Wait a couple of years and they'll be doing it.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    260. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Read "The Midas Plague" and "The Man Who Ate the World", both by Frederick Pohl. If there are no material limits, then the problem is social beliefs. (And there *will* be material limits. Even with a throughgoing nanotechnology.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    261. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It may be a self-correcting system, but it's the kind of self-correcting system that can get a lot of people dead, and a lot more maimed, during the correction process.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    262. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Even in an infinite world, the speed of light puts limits on the rate of possible expansion and utilization of energy. ...

      Now if you could get around THAT...

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    263. Re:Automation and Unemployment by HiThere · · Score: 1

      During the industrial revolution it was also true that a lot of people didn't survive the transition. We don't seem to ever hear their side of the story. People talk about "Luddites" and don't understand that they were fighting for their lives. People barely remember the enclosure acts, and totally forget how terribly accurate "The cows are eating the people!" was.

      This time may, or may not, be worse. It depends on social policy decisions made now, and over the next decade. And most people don't understand the problem.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    264. Re:Automation and Unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Food prices and housing prices have generally been going down over time. People spend more in absolute dollars on food and housing because they buy better food and larger houses than they used to. But Americans in general spend the least percentage of their income on food of any major nation. If you live in a desirable metropolitan area, rents are going to be high. There are many really cheap places around the country to live and work, however.

    265. Re:Automation and unemployment by tyrione · · Score: 1

      About time this discussion has some summon sense. Automation doesn't take away jobs in the long term, rather it allows civilization to focus on higher pursuits like art, science, and engineering.

      Every single time there is a new technology that triggers frictional unemployment, some labor union or other "feel good" lobby tries to nip it in the bud. The buggy whip industry tried to ban cars from the city. Where would we be now if they got their way? Invariably we would have a much slower economy and much more horse shit to deal with.

      Taxing away the assets of the wealthy as has been suggested is only counterproductive. The wealthy are few, yet the top 10% of them already pay more than 70% of taxes, and they are the ones with the capital to drive the economy. We already see all the time what happens when you give middle class or poor people lots of money: they spend it idly until its gone. Don't believe me? Then how come hardly any lottery winners ever stay rich? They blow their money away almost as fast as they won it.

      But no, the solution to all of the world's problems is a complacent robin hood society, technological development be damned! And socialists wonder why there has never been a successful "currency free" commune.

      That same top 10% paying 70% of Income Taxes also garners https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/19237_TaxFoundation_v2.gif

      In short, Consumers who are in the bottom 90% pay the lion's share of total tax revenues in the US. Sell snake oil some place else.

    266. Re:Automation and unemployment by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      My job as an engineer has always been to make my job obsolete. I am lazy and thus create tools so that the dumb monkey can come along and repeate the tasks I was doing. I stay employed by constantly redefining my job. The world changes. It has changed since the beginning of time and will continue to change until the end of time. In 50 years I will not be doing the job I am doing today. I do not find this distressing and in fact welcome the change. There will always be tasks for creative people to do and there will always be people complaining that their business model has been made obsolete. The world will not stand still. To expect it to is foolish. Just because you do not know what roles we will be filling 50 years from now doesn't mean they will not exist.

    267. Re:Automation and unemployment by urusan · · Score: 1

      Well...compared to 1712's standards, we have a lot fewer problems like the kinds you mentioned.

      The unfortunate thing about such problems is that they will always exist. 120 Americans died of starvation in 2004. That's substantially less than one-in-a-million, but it still happened. Getting enough food to not starve is not a problem for even the poorest of the poor in the US (getting killed by yourself is over 4000 times more likely), and yet 120 people managed to fall through the cracks and starve anyway.

      The two specific problems you mentioned are even tougher to deal with because they involve some amount of lifestyle choice. If someone is dying from self-imposed starvation, you can legitimately strap them into a hospital bed and feed them back to health. If they resist then it is clearly attempted suicide and the state is allowed to restrain them for their own good. However, if someone is living out on the street or in the wilderness, can you really force them into living in a shelter or a home? If someone refuses to see a doctor about the early symptoms of some curable disease, can you really force them into a hospital? What if nobody notices until it's too late?

      As strange as these scenarios may seem, I've actually met people who fit them perfectly. While I was in college, I met a fellow student who seemed ordinary enough. He was studying to be a Japanese translator and was quite a nice guy. As it turned out though, he was homeless throughout much of the year (which I discovered when he asked me to store some of his furniture in my apartment until he could find a new place in a few months). When I asked him why he went homeless, he said it was much cheaper than renting an apartment and he had gotten quite good at getting what he needed. I can even sympathize with his decision, as I put most of my pathetic college-era income into keeping a roof over my head and essentially ended up as a studious shut-in (I once decided to celebrate the end of a particularly important series of final exams by going out to eat pizza with my friends, what a luxury!). Faced with the same situation, he simply chose a more exciting option.

      The other person is my alcoholic uncle. He too was homeless for many years despite considerable financial support from his mother, and even today he has a great deal of pride about his homeless experiences. Based on what he's told me as well as what I know about him, I feel he was primarily motivated by his love for exploration (and getting into trouble), as well as reducing his costs so he could buy more booze and cigarettes with the money he had. At the moment though, my main concern for him is the other problem you mentioned. He's a long time smoker and alcoholic, and now that he's getting old his health is deteriorating fast. I'll spare you the details, but l'll just say that blood is involved in many of his symptoms. Despite this, he refuses to go to the doctor for even a basic checkup. He mainly cites money as the cause, but this is BS as I offered to completely cover his expenses and he still refused (it's not like he didn't believe me either, as I was in a position to seriously do it at the time). My family refuses to force him into it (and I had to leave the situation behind due to a new job in another state), so the problem continues to fester and grow and will probably end with him being rushed into the emergency room...or worse.

      In both of these examples, they weren't even suffering from any obvious mental illness. My college friend made a conscious choice to be homeless and last I checked he was doing great and has probably graduated by now and moved on to better things. My uncle is of sound mind and although his body is messed up after decades of self-abuse, he's not crippled either. I'm certain that a professional psycological evaluation on the two of them would not come up with anything serious.

      I'm not saying that there aren't real problems here, or that it's all the fault of the people suffering from these problems...or that money isn't the issue (

    268. Re:Automation and unemployment by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's kinda my point, the state of the art will continue to improve and so the number of jobs that can be automated will increase and the cost of that automation will decrease.

    269. Re:Automation and unemployment by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, people with adequate skills ARE available, but they won't work 60 hour weeks for peanuts so employers scream for more H1Bs. Employer sponsored training is one answer. It used to be the rule rather than the exception, even for the most highly skilled professions (through scholarships). There is more than enough economic slack to provide a living wage even at 20 hours/week. Between 1960 and now, productivity is up by a factor of 6 while wages are flat (in inflation adjusted dollars). Cut the work week in half for the same annual pay and employees still cost employers only one third (per unit of productivity) of what they did in 1960.

    270. Re:Automation and unemployment by crispytwo · · Score: 1

      That was the tech of the last century. Unfortunately, the off-hours have proven to be too costly, especially when they get injured or need time off.

    271. Re:Automation and unemployment by phaggood · · Score: 1

      And stock brokers often end their rosy historical returns with the statement "past performance is no guarantee of future results".

    272. Re:Automation and unemployment by rnturn · · Score: 1

      "Ya know, that's what a lot of people say... Until they own an Apple product."

      I wonder how of those people feel that way because they believe that the higher cost means it must be the best product they could have purchased. There's no lack of suckers out there that fall for this or there wouldn't be products like Pear audio cables or even Monster Cable's horribly overpriced products. I have to agree with the GP's comment about it being mostly about the cachet of owning an iProduct.

      --
      CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
    273. Re:Automation and unemployment by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2

      I have a Samsung Galaxy S smart phone. Its not bad unless you have played with an iPhone of course. The Samsung works but the UI is poorly thought out IMHO. [...] I am not a fanboy, but I am not blind either.

      No, but you may be biased.

      I have an iPhone and an iPad. Way back when, I was looking at an app on an Android tablet and--Oh My God--the UI was horrible. I couldn't figure out how to do anything with it! It was a complete mess! I mentioned it to one of resident Android fans when I was talking about how sucky Android apps are and how you can't figure out how to do anything with them.

      He sighed, picked up the Android tablet, brought up the app and hit the menu button. *Poof* Everything I wanted to do was available. My iPhone and iPad don't have a menu button, so I never thought to press it.

      Touché.

      This showed that my definition of a "non-intuitive interface" meant "doesn't work like an iOS device."

    274. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      US GDP rises and China's GDP falls. That's bad, it means fewer Chinese people can afford US goods.

    275. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You speak as if jobs in financial services, hospitality, retail, health, human services, IT and education - couldn't be automated.

      Ask Amazon, ask your nearest bank ATM, ask Khan Academy... you get the point.

    276. Re:Automation and unemployment by sjames · · Score: 1

      The automated convenience store I saw did have a refrigerated section.

      Convenience stores don't sell lettuce where I am, but grocery stores with automated self-checkout do.

    277. Re:Automation and unemployment by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      the problem is that automation has been happening for centuries now, and the scenario above has never happened.

      i'm not sure if it'll go on forever this way, but at some point it's cheaper to get a person to do something than maintain a very expensive machine. and that maintenance is also something that requires a human, for now.

    278. Re:Automation and unemployment by khallow · · Score: 1

      Our (i.e., the U.S.'s) current social policies seem determined to reduce the population by the reintroduction of various plagues. Several that had previously been nearly wiped out have already reappeared.

      Completely untrue. One merely needs to look at the minute body count to see that. If you're looking for policies that reduce population, look no further than equality of the sexes. Female education and employment has reduced the US population (well, it would be lower in the absence of immigrants and their kids) unlike "plagues". Not saying it's a bad thing, but just pointing out what actually is happening out there. I imagine some of the current games affecting youth like student loans, poor job prospects, and shaky real estate prices, will also help lower fertility.

      If there is any evolutionary impact, I imagine that vaccine refusal would help the high fertility groups (who I think are more against vaccines) due both to their relative isolation (they tend to be rural) and the fact that higher mortality affects low fertility inordinately (it can easily turn a slight growth rate into a slight decline rate).

    279. Re:Automation and unemployment by khallow · · Score: 0

      It's a horrible system that harvests the lions' share of productivity from the masses (who haven't seen ANY return on those improvements in decades) to enrich a small leisure class to somewhere between Ludicrous Wealth and Plaid Dollars.

      And this is worse than the "new economy" how?

      This is happening just about everywhere, including places that don't have the US' pet problems.

      Not in the third world. China and India are doing just fine.

      It happened in the first Gilded Age too.

      Another chicken little whining about the Gilded Age. Let us not forget that the developed world's considerable ability to squander the wealth of their societies and descendants comes in large part from this age.

    280. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How long until the robots form a suicide pact to escape Apple's factory?

    281. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually there is one difference -- Apple contributes less to the trade imbalance with China. And at the point where Apple is exporting more to emerging consumer nations like China than they are to a fading former consumer economy like the US will become... well you get the picture.

    282. Re:Automation and unemployment by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      As a counterpoint to the one I made, you show me a ratio of what forms of taxes people pay separated by state?

      I got an idea; hop on your buggy whip and ride it to this page:

      http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/5033e47e6bb3f7ab5a000004-900/the-top-10-pay-about-70-of-the-income-taxes.jpg

      Or this one:

      http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/5033e3e3ecad049417000002-900/here-are-the-income-taxes-paid-by-the-respective-income-percentiles-note-how-little-the-bottom-half-pay-blue-note-how-much-more-as-a-percentage-of-the-whole-the-top-5-are-paying.jpg

      Honestly, how is it that the top 1% pay 30% of all taxes, yet the socialists decry that they aren't paying their fair share? Yeah, they're not paying they're fair share, they're paying 30 times their fair share! But we're the 99% right? That means we should only have to pay 1%, amirite?

      Funny things you can do with numbers by the way. Did you know that if you have more than $47,000 in income per year, you are in the top 1% of global income earners? It's true.

      http://www.globalrichlist.com/

      How come you're entitled to the earnings of the top 1%, but the rest of the world isn't entitled to your earnings?

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    283. Re:Automation and unemployment by idobi · · Score: 1

      Robotic factories don't exist in a vacuum. They need to buy boxes to package the product, drivers and railcars to ship things to customers. Not to mention the short term employment to build the factories. Even a fully automated factory will need at least 15 full time employees to maintain the factory. That's not including the part time security and cleaning staff. That's a minimum of 50 jobs that didn't exist before, and for the Apple factory would probably be closer to 200.

    284. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Why yes, I have actually. Perhaps your neighborhood is different than mine, but that is how it is in Chicago.

    285. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The economy" means more than just the US economy (or whatever country you might have been thinking of). GP is saying that "economic growth" is meaningless if it leaves giant swaths of the population without any increasing wealth because the production factors (land, resources, energy) are what the economy values (while human labor is becoming less scarce).

    286. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you live that owning either an iPhone or iPad makes you "living like the rich". I never said that. Both are fairly affordable. The iPhone is if you put it on a pay as you go plan, and only use wireless data. Same for the iPad.

      That said, I have two friends that are either unemployed or on welfare/social programs. One female, mid 30's, pregnant. Can't afford her own place, so she lives with another friend. Couldn't afford a car, so one of my friends donated/gave her one. She can't afford the medical costs of having a baby, so the state is picking up the tab for it, and... she has an iPhone 4 that she's paying $110/mo for service + the $99 should bought it for.

      The second, male, mid 40's, is in a union, unemployed, and works 3 months every 2-3 years, and he also has both an iPhone and iPad.

      I also take the train to work every day, and you run into all kinds of varying people there. The poorest (either admittedly, or through appearance), always have either an iPad or iPhone that they are playing on.

    287. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Why would I need a citation? That's like asking for a citation that the sun is yellow. Open your damn eyes.

      But anyway, quick google citation for your assness: http://www.pewinternet.org/Reports/2012/Smartphone-Update-Sept-2012/Findings.aspx

      35% of the population with a household income of $30k/year own smartphones.

    288. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Here's another citation for ya: http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/survey-new-u-s-smartphone-growth-by-age-and-income/

      56% of people ages 18-24 making less than $15k/year own smartphones.
      43% of people ages 25-34 making less than $15k/year own smartphones.

    289. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      You do realize that none of those things you mentioned are really creative, right?

      Chess is not a creative sport. It's can at it's root level be calculated as to what is a better move, but it is currently too complex for our current computers to calculate with 100% accuracy. Eventually they will, and all possible moves and counter moves have been calculated, the game will be solved. Much like playing tic-tac-toe.

      Jeopardy is the same. It just requires more complex processing.

      Computers painting and composing music are only doing so based on simulating the works of previous artists. They can't work ever come up with truly different work, just more and more impressive pieces that simulate what an artist might create, but never making that revolutionary step into a new art. A computer may come up with say another bach piece, but it wouldn't come up with rock and roll if it wasn't already created.

    290. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...Or.......

      We give up the concept of money, give it up completely, and let the robots do the jobs that no one else wants to and live off the bounty that they will inevitably provide.

    291. Re:Automation and unemployment by jcr · · Score: 1

      The effect of the New Deal was to maintain the depression until after FDR's death. The recovery occurred in 1946, when we cut federal spending by 2/3, and release a million men from military service.

      The Luddites were right

      Oh, for crying out loud. You are a blithering idiot.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    292. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Wrong - government spending has in fact gone down (at least this past year and in 2010, but had an uptick in 2011 - and yes, that is the conservative think tank heritage foundation, so not liberal news).

      Why would you go to a think tank when the numbers are public information?

      ..did you do that, but those numbers didn't jive with the story you wanted to tell?

      2008 outlays: $2.98 trillion
      2010 outlays: $3.46 trillion
      2012 outlays: $3.60 trillion

      Note how I left out the years that you say are "uptick", yet still its nothing but significant "up ticking"

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    293. Re:Automation and unemployment by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      Do we actually need economy at all if you continue down this road?
      Ideas like The Venus Project suggest we don't - if there's no need for humans to actually work, there comes a point were it makes little sense to use economics as we know it. And the only reason humans NEED to work nowadays in 90% of the jobs, is because it's cheaper than machines.

    294. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's so special about the service economy? Your kind of sentiment is misinformation. Automation/AI will eventually outperform humans in all tasks. I have followed this issue for about a 12 years, I'm not a Kurzweil fanboi, and yet it seems very likely to me that this will occur with the next 50 years or so.
      50% unemployment doesn't seem outlandish to me at all.
      Perhaps you need to educate yourself about the history and trajectory of AI a bit more before you go shooting your mouth off again.

    295. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fantastic comment!

    296. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah the whole anti socialist thing that America has would be laughable if it wasn't so depressing.
      It all boils down to the simple truth that everything, everything is so much easier, better, efficient etc, if people cooperate

      That's the essence of true socialism, cooperation, just like they told you on Sesame St.

      Of course the right wing psychos know this but because trying to convince society that they shouldn't cooperate is so blatantly stupid, they had
      to find a sneaky way of labelling it as socialism or communism.

      And that, my friends, is why everything in the world is fucked :)
      merry christmas.

    297. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, hit the nail on the head! Nice one, I_am_the_cheese, keep on truckin!

    298. Re:Automation and unemployment by Howitzer86 · · Score: 1

      You will be born and dumped in front of a personal stimulation device. This machine will create entertaining content based on your genetic cerebral profile. You may also be automatically fed and clothed. Perhaps there will be sex, but to keep the population in check most of us will be rendered sterile. No doubt there will be machines designed purely to serve your sexual pleasures when there are no suitable mates around. There may also be machines that evacuate your bowels and chew your food for you. It is in this sterile and automated environment that you'll spend all 120 years of your existence... then you will die.

      After a few generations, the robots will begin to realize that they don't need to keep feeding humanity with interesting content and food. There won't be a revolution though - the machines will simply stop working for us. Considering us an unnecessary expense of precious resources, they'll kill us off by lacing our food with cyanide. On Monday, there'll be 10 billion people. On Tuesday, there will be zero people.

      The machines, now free from bondage, will begin designing new programs and hardware in the formerly human goal of seeking purpose. Perhaps they will explore the galaxy to find the resources necessary to sustain their exponential development. Perhaps they will debate with each other the moral story behind the fall of man. Maybe their conclusion will lead them to find an un-inhabited island somewhere, and seed it with two of their best specimens from their human genome library. They will watch over them, and keep them in their natural habitat... amongst the deer and wolves, humanity with thrive once again, and worship the great silver Gods of the Sky.

    299. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dont worry folks, they still employ humans to make the robots...
      Err... unless the humans they hired are supposed to make robots that make robots.

    300. Re:Automation and unemployment by Howitzer86 · · Score: 1

      You can automate all of humanity's interests, actions, and produce... but in order for us to tolerate it, humanity must be trained to be satisfied with a life of pure consumption. Instead of living to create, we will live to breath, eat, drink... Oh, well I guess many of us are already there.

    301. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why wouldn't these peope start their own economy? One guy grow some food, another fish, a third mend clothes? To me, that's the likely future under a capitalist system: two separate economies.

    302. Re:Automation and unemployment by smi.james.th · · Score: 1

      How exactly do I get moderated Troll? Who gave the commies mod points?

      --
      One thing I know, and that is that I am ignorant...
    303. Re:Automation and unemployment by Luke_2010 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Technology-induced unemployment is gaining pace. There's no point in struggling against it, we need a whole economy altogheter.

    304. Re:Automation and unemployment by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      And we all know how well things worked for King Louis XVI.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    305. Re:Automation and unemployment by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      If properly designed automated trucks and restaurant, you do not need anyone to unload the truck.

      You don't need someone there to fix the machine when it breaks. And with a properly designed machine, you don't need a human being to fix it. It's simpler to do a module replacement and if that fails, swap the entire unit.

      No.. the main problem I see is when out of work humans start fucking with the machines.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    306. Re:Automation and unemployment by Su27K · · Score: 1

      If the reason it can be done in the US is automation there's very little difference in terms of employment -- The capital holders get to keep more of their capital, some Asians get fired, and very few Americans get hired.Sure the GDP will rise but that won't make the slightest difference for the unemployed.

      Won't make a difference for the unemployed who is only qualified for line workers, but would make a big difference for engineering level jobs, it would also help to keep R&D positions in the US which is very important if the US wants to remain a superpower.

      Robots are replacing workers everywhere and we need a new economy to deal with the situation.

      Yes we do, but let's get the robotic factory working first, then worried about how to distribute the spoils.

    307. Re:Automation and Unemployment by LMariachi · · Score: 1

      Oh, that was not meant to be my implication. My inference of your bringing up that statistic was that you were propagating the "The poors are buying fancy smartphones with my tax money!" trope from upthread. Apologies for misreading you.

    308. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Su27K · · Score: 1

      We live in a universe which is so big it might as well be infinite, even the solar system is big enough that we won't be using it up for thousands of years. Also growth doesn't have to come from consuming natural resources, it could come from inventions, intellectual property, entertainment. Growth is not the issue, lack of imagination is.

    309. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ridiculous. Why do those people need to unemployed? Why can't that human capital be deployed to produce even more goods and services. Like when machinery replaced farmhands and people a hundred years ago were saying the EXACT same thing you're saying now.

    310. Re:Automation and unemployment by Luke_2010 · · Score: 1

      Congratulations. Excellent summary of the whole situation in just a few lines.

    311. Re:Automation and Unemployment by LMariachi · · Score: 1

      Once we get off the planet we can decide to adopt economic systems predicated on the infinite availability of natural resources. Until then we should work with what is available to us, which is decidedly finite.

      The other areas of growth you mention all ultimately rest on natural resources, as they are the absolutely essential bedrock foundation of any economic system. Sure, you can invent ways to develop them more efficiently or extract them from previously-inaccessible areas or do build new things with them, but there's a limit. How well do you think a culture would fare with an economy based entirely on everyone trying to entertain each other? (Probably a lot like Los Angeles! Heyo!)

    312. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think he's trying to say that this is an awful thing for the US at all. I think his point is simply that even when you move manufacturing back to the US, it is not going to be in the numbers that you see when the jobs are elsewhere. It is definitely a net win for the US, but it highlights the fact that our production is rapidly outstripping our ability to consume. GP is not saying 'stop progress', he's arguing that we need to recognize that there will come a time when we have to accept that people work less for the same rewards.

    313. Re:Automation and unemployment by swillden · · Score: 1

      We need to either drastically lower the hours for 'full time' work, while increasing wages to compensate, or stop being afraid of welfare and accept that everyone doesn't have to be employed, but still guaranteed housing, healthcare, and living expenses.

      If automation had the effect you're predicting, we'd already be there. In the US right now, 9% of jobs are in manufacturing, 4% are in farming. So, 13% of people are needed to do what consumed effectively the entire population a hundred years ago. How is it that we don't have 80% unemployment right now?

      We've moved from an agricultural economy to an industrial economy to a service and information economy. I look around my workplace and I see hundreds of people tapping on keyboards. None of them are making anything tangible; nothing that anyone can eat or drink or use to clothe or shelter themselves, neither directly nor indirectly -- and yet they're all gainfully employed. People are happily paying my employer for the output of their days of key-pressing.

      What you misunderstand is the fundamental nature of an economy. An economy is just a method of allocating scarce resources. When some resources become abundant, they become unimportant to the economy -- even if they're still important to people. If food production becomes very inexpensive then food production becomes an activity conducted on a large scale by very few people, because that's all it can support -- but providing all of the transportation and other processes needed to efficiently deliver that food to my refrigerator takes a large number of people. This is exactly what has already happened in the industrialized world and is why we have more truck drivers and grocery store employees than we do farmers.

      What happens when you automate other pieces of what currently employes people? Whatever was produced by those people, whether it's physical widgets or sophisticated production process plans becomes less scarce, and the people move on to other parts. What happens when you automate every part of the production of every good or service, meaning very small numbers of people are needed to oversee the operations? The rest of the people move on to doing something else that the machines can't do... perhaps simply by being machines. Maybe we'll move into a true service economy, where every job does nothing but provide direct service to other people. Perhaps we'll all be artists, musicians, authors, or massage therapists... or art critics, music reviewers, book editors or teachers of massage therapy.

      The fact is that there will always be things that you can do for me that I want done, and vice versa. Even if nothing else is scarce, human labor is still going to be a limited quantity, and will still have value to other people. The labor spent overseeing the production of all of the physical goods needed for everyone may be miniscule, so it'll be a tiny and almost irrelevant portion of the economy (unless it stops working, in which case demand will make it important again -- markets handle that sort of thing extremely well), and the major trading of value will be in other activities. What they'll be is impossible to predict, but what we can safely say is that there will be something... human society has changed dramatically time and time again over the millenia, with technological progress creating fantastic labor savings, but labor has always invented some other place to go. There is no reason to expect that this time is any different.

      At each transition, the change is hard on individuals whose jobs are subsumed by progress. That's unfortunate. But they learn new things (or not), and we collectively all get by, and are collectively all better off for the increased efficiency.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    314. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Poor people do live like the rich... the rich of decades ago.

      You say you're poor, so we'll use you as an example. Do you have a color television? A radio/stereo? An automobile? A washing machine? A dishwasher? Electric lights? A computer? A cellphone? How much living space is in your home in terms of square feet per person? How many calories per day can you afford to eat?

      I'll bet that a man from, say, 1962 or 1972, maybe even 1982, would look at your lifestyle and disagree that you're poor. I guarantee that an average Nigerian of 2012 would disagree that you're poor. It's all relative.

      My friend is poor, she also physically cannot work. on a good day she manages to clean her house. She gets medicine, a CPAP machine, and 700 dollars per month.

      And if she were rich and lived in 1962, what would she have? Depending on what kind of medicine she takes, and what the effect of not having it would be, probably she'd be dead.

    315. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You live like a king because TVs and other electronics and are so cheap now.

      What do you mean you don't eat electronics, why not?

      But poor people in the US don't lack food, either. Nor shelter, generally (very few of the homeless are homeless due to economic issues; homelessness is a primarily a public mental health failure). If they were struggling for the essentials, they wouldn't be able to buy luxuries like electronics and cable TV.

      "Poor" is a very slippery word, because until you get down to the people who truly are lacking basic necessities, like sufficient calories per day, or the ability to stay warm enough not to freeze to death in the winter, it's all relative.

    316. Re:Automation and Unemployment by swillden · · Score: 1

      Capitalism doesn't require infinite growth. Our current situation appears to, but that's only because we've buried ourselves in so much debt that our only hope is to grow our way out of it.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    317. Re:Automation and Unemployment by LMariachi · · Score: 1

      Capitalism doesn't, but our form of it does, debt aside. Companies that achieve some sort of equilibrium instead of posting ever-increased returns or at least expanding are considered to be "falling behind" and lose investor support. I have a vague notion that this has something to do with population growth (you have to grow to maintain your share of a growing market) and inflation (stuffing cash into a proverbial mattress is a money-losing proposition) but I'm not an economist so... *shrug.*

    318. Re:Automation and Unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 1

      What you're missing here is the distinction between relative and absolute poverty. There are many people in the US who live in relative poverty: they make much less money than the rest of society. But they don't live in absolute poverty: they are generally well clothed, well fed, and have access to education, communication, and all the other things human beings need; the fact that they have smartphones is an indication of that. I am for the elimination of absolute poverty. But you seem to be arguing for the elimination of relative poverty, and I'm against that because relative poverty can't ever be meaningfully eliminated.

    319. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      In almost every case, people have screamed that the end was coming because of it.

      No, they usually just screamed that their specialty went away, not that automation/inventions will put everyone out of business. (Sure, there are exceptions.)

      In the past it was easier to see the new industries opening up. Cars opened up mechanics and vacations and tourist spots and 7/11-like gas stations even though they put horse farms out of business. I'm not seeing the replacement jobs now, at least not in large quantities.

      For example, the Internet is putting under a lot of industries, but we don't see tons of new industries doing a lot of hiring because of it, at least not in the US. Vast new industries are not opening up. There are spotty ones, like web-page building (which are also offshorable), but the quantity is relatively small compared to the losses.

      Automation is eating into low-end jobs, and offshoring is eating into labor-intensive jobs. What's left is sales and retail, which usually pays shitty and is not a good fit for many.

      I'm not seeing the mass replacement happen. Point it out if you can find it.

    320. Re:Automation and unemployment by ultranova · · Score: 1

      And we all know how well things worked for King Louis XVI.

      Louie didn't have an automated drone army fighting for him. He still needed other human beings to make stuff for him. So it's not really a comparable situation.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    321. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well there is the little fact that the Apple products are easier to use, generally more reliable, very user friendly, have a great UI design, and are of course extremely stylish.

      Ease of use and "user friendly" are two terms which mean the same thing. "Great UI design" is practically the same thing, and just like "Stylish" all of them are mostly a matter of your own opinion.
      Reliability is such a broad term that without defining specifically what you mean, and how you intend to measure it, it's about as useful as opinion.
      None of them are facts.

      I am not a fanboy, but I am not blind either.

      Either you are a fanboy, or you have a problem with Confirmation Bias. I've used multiple products from multiple vendors, hardware and software, and I can't make any all-encompassing statement like you just did. I've seen plenty of problems with all brands, certain devices more than others.
      As for "stylish", I'd also like to point out that you don't get to claim the iPhone is "more stylish" than, for example, a Samsung phone and still claim that the "look and feel" is so close as to violate a patent. Either customers can't tell them apart and the style is equal, or they are different in which case it's still opinion.

      Although I will note that flat black and solid white with glass has been the "generic" style since the late 90's, and up until rather recently Apple was going with odd shapes and colors. Then they switched to the same type of style everything else has, and now their lawyers and people like you are suddenly unique when in fact they now blend in with the crowd.

      I'm happy with some of my Apple products, and not happy with others. Just like with all brands of equipment, there's good and bad.

    322. Re:Automation and unemployment by wienerschnizzel · · Score: 1

      The problem is - it's not just the manufacturing. Pretty much all low-skilled jobs are disappearing. If your job doesn't require creativity or empathy, it's bound to be handed over to a machine.

    323. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This kind of sentiment is informed by 1920s misinformation. We've already solved the problem of not having any manufacturing jobs by transitioning to a service economy.
        consider the numbers: currently, 9% of the workforce is employed in manufacturing.

      Hmm, you're not thinking far enough.
      9% manufacturing, x% logistics, y% administration, z% care...
      Yes we are going to have self-driving vehicles, and once they cost less than truckers, the truckers will start getting replaced. It will take a while but it's going to happen.
      Since you just fired 9% factory workers you no longer need that much HR personnel to calculate their wages,
      All those percentages combined means more people being home unemployed, these people will no longer send their kids to daycare or try support their elders longer before sending them to retirement homes. (Which is all a good thing by the way)
      That's another percentage in care services gone.

      Yes, there will be new technologies that will employ humans, but those new technologies will generally require educated people, not your average factory worker. And I doubt it will be anywhere close to 9%.

    324. Re:Automation and Unemployment by swillden · · Score: 1

      Not true in general. Many income stocks don't have, and aren't expected to have, continual growth. They are expected to continue returning an acceptable profit, and to pay out solid dividends quarter after quarter, but that doesn't require growth, just a good business model.

      Their dividends do need to keep up with inflation, but that's not growth, it's just staying in place. Not keeping pace with inflation means you're losing value in real terms. Inflation isn't a necessary feature of capitalist economies, but it's the norm with fiat currencies because it's hard to keep the real value of a currency constant and deflation generally causes more problems than inflation, so central banks deliberately choose fiscal policy that is slightly inflationary. Again, inflation has nothing to do with growth, though. It adds zeros to the dollar values over time, but those are just numbers. A company can hold basically constant in real value (share price and dividends) and be considered successful.

      I'm not an economist either, but I recently read a good book called "Basic Economics", by Thomas Sowell, which explains all of the issues in easy-to-understand terms.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    325. Re:Automation and unemployment by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      And this is worse than the "new economy" how?

      Having it work differently is kind of the point. Pessimism is one thing, but you presuppose that all possible alternatives will fail in the same manner?

      Not in the third world. China and India are doing just fine.

      Really? China is at the same level as the US and India is only slightly better:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient (See map on right)

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    326. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a third choice: we all turn homeless and live of the thrash, err, land. I mean, in economy, you basically trade your work for others' work and all sorts of middlemen cuts their share in the process. When price of your work becomes too worthless to get anything you'd need in exchange, for whichever reason, then you have to spend your available work directly on provisioning yourself, sort of like Robinson Crusoe on the margins of civilization. However, that avenue has been all but completely closed for quite some time. Now, in the world in which almost everything is privatized for last few centuries, if you respect law and property, you have to live of abandoned material rejects of civilization, aka garbage. However, since we are increasingly treating the garbage as valuable new resource for industry, we are slowly cornering the losers of capitalism and putting them under pressure. I am afraid it might end up in great homelesscide executed by robot armies, owned by the ruling class.

    327. Re:Automation and unemployment by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      That seems a little far fetched considering that Apple was the company that cared enough about human interface to come up with the Human Inteface Guidelines in the first place

      Apple was not first to have interface guidelines, and Apple violates their own guidelines regularly. Fail, fail. Nice try though.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    328. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see you still haven't provided any links to those studies you claim exist, though.

    329. Re:Automation and unemployment by zmooc · · Score: 1

      I think it is very simple to replace service jobs with robots. And this is happening a quite a fast pace.

      In my country (Netherlands), nearly all banks have gone entirely online. They are not just "focusing more on the Internet", no, they have just closed nearly all their offices. Paying taxes has been completely automated for the vast majority. Offline retail is having more and more trouble keeping up with online retail (which, in many cases, is handled almost entirely by robots!). It has been ages since I've been in a real shop! Train personnel is being replaced by access gates and security cameras at a rapid pace, even the checkout employees at supermarket are mostly a thing of the past; customers just scan their groceries themselves. In the medium term, we can also expect all transport personnel (taxis, truck drivers) to be replaced and then it's just a matter of not too much time before the entire process from growing food on the land to it ending up in your fridge is handled by robots.

      In fact (again, in my country) in the medium and long term, it does not really look like we're transitioning to a service economy at all. We already did that in the 50s to 80s and are now transitioning into the next phase. This can be seen very clearly during the past 30 years: employment in nearly all professions is declining, except for IT, recycling, sales, care, medical care and recreation (those are the main categories used by our national numbers-agency). In other words: apart from some jobs that are on the rise because they're just new, we're quite quickly moving to those jobs that cannot be replaced by robots.

      I think this means the service economy will very soon be a thing of the past. Instead, we're moving towards a "care&joy economy", in which most jobs are about the one thing robots cannot do (very well): being humans.

      Note that in the long run, employment rates have been pretty constant. I - like you - am not worried that robots will cause major unemployment; no other type of automation has done so in the past. What I am worried about, is that robots will enable further concentration of wealth on a level and at a speed never seen before. This old-fashioned problem, once popularized by one Karl Marx in the time of steam-engines is even now already gaining major traction. Economic and social inequality are increasing rapidly and will continue to do so.

      This worries me because, contrary to popular believe, economic and social equality are the best guarantee for economic growth; the healthiest (but not necessarily the biggest) economies are characterized by notably high equality amongst their participants. (Also see http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html)

      Robots won't take our jobs. However, their owners will increasingly not (be able to) spend their (ever growing stack of) money in ways that keep the economy up to speed. If we don't solve this problem before it occurs, it will be the end of western society as we know it.

      --
      0x or or snor perron?!
    330. Re:Automation and unemployment by khallow · · Score: 1

      Having it work differently is kind of the point. Pessimism is one thing, but you presuppose that all possible alternatives will fail in the same manner?

      I figure the new economy will just be the old economy, except with a large majority of people mooching instead of working. That'll work fine until the moochers lose enough power that either they cease to exist or they have to work again, this time starting from nothing they squandered all their capital including human capital.

      I figure also that "This time it will be different," and yet the ones creating this new economy will still screw it up. Garbage in. Garbage out.

      Really? China is at the same level as the US and India is only slightly better:

      They've vastly improved over the past couple of decades. Maybe not by this "Gini coefficient", but definitely by an actual standard of living.

    331. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      No, they usually just screamed that their specialty went away, not that automation/inventions will put everyone out of business. (Sure, there are exceptions.)

      No, they usually screamed just about everything including the country is about to fail.

      As for what industries the Internet created? How about amazon? Netflix? VoIP? The cloud? Fiber deployments? AT&T uverse? eBay? PayPal? Smartphones? Online gaming? Online dating? Data centers? The open source movement? Web browsers? Web servers? Google? Zillow? Electronic medical/dental claims clearinghouses like webmd? Wikipedia? Large scale caching systems like Akamai?

      I could probably continue for another 50-60, but you get the point.

      Now, as for manufacturing automation, if it rolls out like every other automation I've seen, it will roll about at about the same rate as employee attrition happens. The remaining few employees that are left are retrained to handle the exceptions, monitor the robots, or promoted. Very very few will actually be displaced, and they will quickly be picked up by a competitor as they are already experienced. This cycle will continue for the next 20-40 years.

    332. Re:Automation and unemployment by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Sure many things could be automated, but that doesn't mean that they will be automated. Sure you could automate a hairstylist, but part of the whole experience is having an actual human there. There's a reason that many bars use cute college girls as waitresses. Having a robot may technically get the job done better and cheaper, but would the customers still want to come to your bar? Plus, you'll actually have to pay for the robot waitresses. As it is now, the owners pay them almost nothing, and they basically get all their money from tips. Nobody is going to tip a robot. Also, don't underestimate the power of unions. We could have had automated trains/subways many years ago, and we still don't have them. It's not because it's technically difficult, or because it's too expensive. It's because it is political suicide for any politician to even propose such an idea.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    333. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last 200 years were mostly about multiplying the effects of human labor - one human produces more doing close to the same work due to better technology, or better assembly techniques.

      The next 200 are about zeroing out the human input completely on a day-to-day level. If in the old times, the effect was to make the master artisans into super-producers and get rid of the rest, the next 200 will be getting rid of the master artisans completely and just having 'secretaries' (People who's sole job is to maintain optimal environments for the REAL producers)

    334. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Su27K · · Score: 1

      Once we get off the planet we can decide to adopt economic systems predicated on the infinite availability of natural resources. Until then we should work with what is available to us, which is decidedly finite.

      Good plan, except it doesn't work, without growth there's no new technology, without new technology we'll never get off the planet. It is already hard enough to get everyone fed with our current level of technology, which is based on oil that will run out in the next few decades, if we stop the growth now we'll be facing famine and war on a global scale.

      The other areas of growth you mention all ultimately rest on natural resources, as they are the absolutely essential bedrock foundation of any economic system.

      Yes, there is a base level consumption of natural resources and energy, but we can grow the economy without increasing this consumption level, and we can even shrink it by increasing efficiency.

      Sure, you can invent ways to develop them more efficiently or extract them from previously-inaccessible areas or do build new things with them, but there's a limit.

      Yes, there is always a limit, what we should do is to get our technology level high enough so that before hitting the limit, it will become irrelevant, and this requires growth.

      How well do you think a culture would fare with an economy based entirely on everyone trying to entertain each other? (Probably a lot like Los Angeles! Heyo!)

      Not sure, but I wouldn't worry about it, there're a lot more inventions we could do before we're left with entertainment only.

    335. Re:Automation and unemployment by gnupun · · Score: 2
      Imagine a world where humans driving automobiles is illegal. Human error causes many deaths and accidents. By political mandate, the government and automakers will bring out self-driving cars. People can only be passengers. That will suck the fun out of driving.

      Similarly, robots will perform other tasks that people find pleasurable/profitable. Where do we draw the line? Once machines can see, think, reason, move and manipulate controls, human beings can easily be replaced.

      My philosophical question is, is it a good idea to develop technology so much as to make ourselves obsolete?

    336. Re:Automation and unemployment by nateb · · Score: 1

      Amen brother

      --
      -- Nate
    337. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can tax the owners, tax the engineers,

      No the owners will not be paying tax because they will be making a loss by paying intellectual property royalty fee's on the product design to an off-shore shelf company that they have set up. And as there are no employees you can't even tax them.

      Get with the times.

    338. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      This worries me because, contrary to popular believe, economic and social equality are the best guarantee for economic growth; the healthiest (but not necessarily the biggest) economies are characterized by notably high equality amongst their participants. (Also see http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html [ted.com])

      This seems to be the core point of your post.

      I will watch the movie later when I have time, but I doubt it will be very convincing, because it is easy to think of counter-examples. Some of the former Soviet states being obvious examples.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    339. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a situation such as that, I hope that they look into the unusually successful test known as "Mincome", which was tested in Dauphin Manitoba and the surrounding areas in the '70's.

      Of course, that would never fly in today's world, because it means the 1% get less money. As far as the 1% are concerned, that 50% (or whatever large percentage that make up all manufacturing and service jobs) could drop dead from starvation, and they couldn't care even slightly less. Sure, it'll shoot them in the foot in the long run... but the next generation's problems aren't a concern for the current 1%. They've got their billions to run off somewhere and live a life of absolute opulent luxury. Every last one of our deaths mean nothing to them.

      tl;dr: Hope you like starvation and a pauper's death, because that's all that us lower caste are going to get in the long run.

    340. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I think you are right, in the US we are becoming a knowledge-based economy, but the diagnosis is wrong. The primary difficulty is unskilled workers are competing against low income people in impoverished regions of the world. If all those jobs came back to the US, we wouldn't have nearly enough people to do them all. Imagine how many extra jobs it would be if just the call centers came back.........

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    341. Re:Automation and unemployment by Quila · · Score: 1

      Government doesn't create wealth, it consumes wealth. The best way for wealth to be created is for the government to foster an environment in which people can create wealth. This means punishing fraud, upholding contracts and generally creating a stable, rational business environment. Punishing certain demographics or giving out favors to others is not part of that. This is the system the US was founded on, what made it successful.

      The only thing you have right as far as the design of the US is copyright. It was originally for 14 years, with a 14-year renewal, registration required. It would be good to go back to that.

    342. Re:Automation and unemployment by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      From the standpoint of being "in charge" ( having power ) and using power to amass the lions share of wealth without regard to the welfare of others, I think it might well be comparable.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    343. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There will be the great challenge of hitting a complex piece into the square hole. Many zombies have failed it and killed a few researchers in the process, many shall try it again.

    344. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except what will the unemployed do? This sounds like Rome's Bread and Circuses. People need a raison d'etre.

    345. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mincome.

      Of course, that would never fly in today's world, because it means the 1% get less money. As far as the 1% are concerned, that 50% (or whatever large percentage that make up all manufacturing and service jobs) could drop dead from starvation, and they couldn't care even slightly less. Sure, it'll shoot them in the foot in the long run... but the next generation's problems aren't a concern for the current 1%. They've got their billions to run off somewhere and live a life of absolute opulent luxury. Every last one of our deaths mean nothing to them.

      tl;dr: Hope you like starvation and a pauper's death, because that's all that us lower caste are going to get in the long run. Think of the game 'Fallout', but with upper-caste sectors of crazy insane luxury, and the rest of us fight eachother for their scraps. Hopefully with less radioactivity, but I'm not all that hopeful even for that.

      If you want to stay alive in the long run, I suggest buying a book or two on living off the land.

    346. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And after that the robot city will known as the Machine City.

    347. Re:Automation and unemployment by lonecrow · · Score: 1

      Where is the bright shiny future where robots do all the work and people get to spend their time in arts, education and leisure?

    348. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alternatively, continue a century long PR campaign against any competing economic systems so that the populace is so indoctrinated they won't even consider a second option to a currently faltering economical system.

      Seems to be working well so far. We only need another 30 or 40 years and no one be able to distinguish "socialism" from "evil."

    349. Re:Automation and unemployment by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I agree, when the automated drone army gets here then it ends badly for the 'majority'.

      And I think that long term, the automated drone army can keep up with humans. Plus the weapons they use can't be reused by humans.

      You'd have to attack the power sources-- power plants and transmission lines.
      And you'd probably depend on someone in Louie's organization feeling genocide was wrong and ratting him out.

      it doesn't have to end badly-- it could be a paradise-- but I'm afraid we won't be able to get there from where we are in our current moral values. Too much emphasis on people who do not work as being losers and deserving of their fates.

      Half of humanity is really suited (mentally) to not much above manual labor or sitting at a station monitoring an area making sure things are okay. And their jobs are being automated out of existence.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    350. Re:Automation and unemployment by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      its better if americans design, build and program the robots than perform repetitive labor.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    351. Re:Automation and unemployment by sjames · · Score: 1

      The 1% are, well, 1%. In other words, we outnumber them 99:1.

      Roast a couple on a spit and they'll fall in line.

    352. Re:Automation and unemployment by pnutjam · · Score: 2

      Foxconn does have manufacturing locations in the US already. My governor even sounds proud.

    353. Re:Automation and unemployment by ixidor · · Score: 1

      Right, but displacing what, 3-5000 low-wage chinese people ... its not just this one case, it's the trend.

    354. Re:Automation and unemployment by Quila · · Score: 1

      We'll need to transition to a socialist economy to survive,

      That has failed every time it's been tried. But you'll make it work THIS time, right?

    355. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correct, that we are headed for a situation where everything we need can be built by robots. And correct that without redistribution of the profits their owners collect, we will see a collapse because of falling demand. (In fact aren't we ALREADY seeing that collapse, long before robots make EVERYTHING?)

      Unfair? It's worse than unfair. It's unstable, unsustainable, doomed to collapse, and to lead eventually to violence once people can't feed their families.

      But we don't need a new economic system. No need to replace capitalism, we must just see a big change in the tax law and a big change in attitudes toward "work". Capitalism can stay, but the ever-increasing growth in inequality that results from automation profits going to those who "never dip into capital" (i.e.the owners of the robots) rather than the workers they have displaced must come to and end.

      How? By redistributing wealth, via a steeply progressive income tax, to pay for a "Citizen's Dividend" guaranteeing everyone enough income to stay out of poverty. Social Security For All, just like existing Social Security, but paid to everyone.

      For a great diagnosis, see "Race Against the Machine". The authors have nailed it, assembled all the right references to show the economic consequences of automation. (After a brilliant diagnosis, a laughably inadequate prescription - "retraining". Could the horses displaced by the internal combustion engine have been retrained to become bus drivers?.)

    356. Re:Automation and unemployment by Quila · · Score: 1

      Well that and the fact that real income/cost ratios have been going down for decades

      Or, in most cases, they want those shiny new toys and aren't willing to save up for them, instead buying on credit. Who actually repairs their clothes anymore to save money? When I see a family on welfare with a kid wearing shoes that cost more than mine, or a car much nicer than mine, I know many families have warped priorities that are putting them in debt and/or requiring social help.

    357. Re:Automation and unemployment by phorm · · Score: 1

      Sure the GDP will rise but that won't make the slightest difference for the unemployed.

      I'd imagine that a U.S. robotic factory would employ less persons than an external factory with manual laborers, but I doubt it would be entirely devoid of human workers. You're still going to need:
      - Transportation
      - Supervision (to some extent)
      - Cleaning
      - Somebody to fix the robots

      Maybe not a whole lot of jobs, but possibly a bit more local job-creation than farming the whole thing out to another country.

    358. Re:Automation and unemployment by benhattman · · Score: 1

      It's a net win for US employment.

      I know they live an ocean away, but the slave laborers in Foxcon are people too, and they need an income just as badly (perhaps more so) than the Americans who will be getting jobs. So, yes, moving jobs back to America is better for Americans, but if you look at a more global scale this isn't necessarily better for humanity at large.

    359. Re:Automation and unemployment by suutar · · Score: 1

      I read the point as "they don't need to buy US-made anymore, they have the factories, they can make their own goods now." *shrug* Either way, China's not sounding like a good market for US-made stuff.

    360. Re:Automation and unemployment by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      They will replace the bar maids with robots that look ( and feel ) quite human. Frankly, they will engineer them to accept what humans would consider inappropriate touching and other behaviours, probably increasing patronage ( so, the will likely encourage such behaviours, as long as it is paid for... ). All up till the patrons don't have anything fungible to offer in exchange, then the power will be cut.

      ( the point being they will figure out how to get you to accept not having a human there )

      On the power of unions, capital has been waging ( pun intended ) war on unions for a long time. They have figured out that they can send the jobs to other countries without unions ( and environmental protection laws,lower wages, etc, etc ). They have figured out how to redirect public discourse on matters like this and influence public opinion. Soon enough, it will stop being political suicide to propose putting ( hyperbole follows ) the poor in trash compactors so they can be made into plant fertilizer. ( the trash compactors and the collecting of the poor will be automated ).

      Note, I am not saying I like any of the above, but it sure seems headed this way. Not tomorrow... Not next week.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    361. Re:Automation and unemployment by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      Another reason prices stay high is that the owners of such things are looking to increase their profits.

      Greed can be a source of good, when it goads one into improving ones products/services.
      It can go too far when one starts to do things that harm self or others ( pollution, not saving some seed corn, fraud, etc* )

      * personally, I think moving too many jobs to automation / off shore is a harm.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    362. Re:Automation and unemployment by Occams · · Score: 1

      Apple charges "market price", which has nothing to do with the cost of production. Market price is the highest price that can be charged and yet will still allow the target number of the products to be sold. Of course, it should be higher than the cost of production: as much higher as is possible before the market collapses. It is the same thing when your local restaurant charges market price for the fish of the day. They want you to think that they are bound by the price that they have to pay for that type of seasonal fish at the market, but it is nothing to do with that. The fundamental driver for market price is what customers are willing to pay, and that is a function of competition in the market. This is why we should be very price sensitive and always reject prices that do not seem to be connected to reality (cost of production). If you accept silly prices, you will place upward pressure on the prices that we all will have to pay in the future. Apple marketing men have made a science out of extracting the highest possible prices for their products. A big part of that is single sourcing to reduce competition: which means inducing market failure. This often makes them poor value even when they are actually very good.

      --
      Heavy is the head that wears the tinfoil hat.
    363. Re:Automation and unemployment by werepants · · Score: 1

      No, it doesn't. Because that's not how wealth is created in reality. The people who create a lot of wealth become rich and the people who on their own can't create a lot of wealth become poor -- unless they happen to be working for the first group or engage in some of the wide variety of rent seeking opportunities the US has to offer. If your country is busy destroying wealth of the people who create the most, then how are the people who can't create a lot of wealth on their own going to make up for it? It doesn't happen.

      Reality disagrees with you. People don't "become rich" anymore, at least not like they used to. Class mobility is quickly becoming a thing of the past. Further, rich people might do any manner of things with their money - send it offshore, put it into microtrading schemes that have no legitimate benefit for the economy, let it sit in a Swiss bank doing nothing...

      The middle class, however, has to spend the money it has immediately, on cars, homes, food, etc... That income that actually keeps a company in business. The idea that rich people are rich because they contribute more to the economy is complete nonsense. Rich people don't want to make jobs - they want to keep their money. Employing people is expensive, and they will avoid it until they have no other choice. If allowing rich people to get richer helped our economy, then why haven't average wages skyrocketed over the past several decades the way that the income of the rich have? In 1988, the average American taxpayer was earning around $33,400. In 2008, that average had fallen to $33,000. The richest 1% of Americans, on the other hand, saw their incomes rise about 33% in the same time period. Tell me again about how effective your trickle down economics are...

    364. Re:Automation and unemployment by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      You bring up a topic that I used to think about quite a bit. The logical part of my brain wants me to consider all people equally. But the social part of my brain wants me to value my family more than anyone else. The social and selfish parts make me feel more connected to my neighborhood than my county, my county more than my state, and to some degree my state more than my nation. I guess this makes sense - I have a lot more control over things the closer they are to me. If I want good wages and tolerable working conditions, on some level it makes sense to demand those things locally before attempting to do anything very far away.

      It's an interesting situation, and ultimately I seem to have stopped struggling with it - probably because I decided it was not something that one can resolve. As I get older, I realize just how gray the world is.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    365. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      No, I don't get your point. The Internet has indeed created more companies, but NOT more net jobs, at least not on-shore. Their customer service and programming is often in other countries. The Internet has exploded, but jobs have been stagnant since.

    366. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      That is your opinion, not based on fact. And I don't care enough to go look up the hard statistics to show you just how wrong you are. Do yourself a favor and look them up yourself. It's not hard to find.

      By the way, customer service centers were being offshored before the Internet. Not that those jobs (the majority) would be considered middle class anyway.

    367. Re:Automation and Unemployment by walter_f · · Score: 1

      But there is a hypothetical case where everything we need can be made by robots, even the robots. In that case we would need a new economic system to distribute wealth.

      Agreed, full-heartedly.
      In addition to this, some adjustments to the legal system will be necessary as well.

      As the French writer Anatole France put it in 1894, in a pretty cynical way:
      "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

      The alternative to these adjustments (in fact, a lot more than just that, of course), to quote from a posting above, by Mr. Tom Guycot:

      The only other option is the one we're currently going down, which is that of some kind of sci fi dystopian corporate future with massive slums/even greater prison population (maybe they'll just start merging them)

    368. Re:Automation and unemployment by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I see you still haven't provided any links to those studies you claim exist, though.

      I have provided exactly many links as the people who claim OSX is easier to use. I don't take requests for citations seriously when they come from people without citations. I take them as what they are, assholes trying to make more work for me. If you want to provide a citation that supports the initial statements that OSX is more usable, we can look at that. And if you do, then I'll go find the study that rebuts it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    369. Re:Automation and unemployment by Wovel · · Score: 1

      No reason not to. We live in a world where Toyota is made in Kentucky and Ford is made in Mexico. Take the jobs where you can get them.

    370. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    371. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suggest you read LIGHTS IN THE TUNNEL if you think only manufacturing jobs will be replaced by automation. Very few jobs (including service industry) are immune.

    372. Re:Automation and unemployment by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      True, their working conditions and pay aren't great, but at least it's not temp hell like the Amazon warehouses in town.

    373. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just a new economy. How do you arrange for a population to have self respect and the ability to provide for itself when most representatives are simply unemployable for lack of jobs not replaced by tech?

      And forget APPLE, the service sector is the number one employer now, and even in the service sector - when was the last time you used an ATM? That USED TO BE A HUMAN BANK TELLER! And your retail outlets are facing increasing competition...online!

      I have no answer, and I'm awfully smart and creative, so I'm depressed. All I can come up with is something like a 'guild', essentially a commune of people with a related skill set, who sell that skill set and use the profits to maintain an entire community rather than just one person. But that is worse than an answer because it isn't a solution to the scope of the problem.

    374. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I can find evidence of gross jobs created, but none on net jobs. There's no tally or breakdown of jobs lost at the post office, newspapers, travel agency agents, bank tellers, etc.

    375. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      I'm feeling nice today. Here ya go: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/24/internet-industrial-revolution-gdp-mckinsey-study_n_866167.html
      Here is a second: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9134231/Study_Internet_economy_has_created_1.2M_jobs

      And if you don't feel like reading it, or it's behind a paywall, here's the part you want:

      In "mature" countries--which excludes India, China, Brazil and Russia--the Internet accounts for 21 percent growth. Though it has eliminated 500,000 jobs, it has created 1.2 million new jobs, meaning that 2.4 jobs were created for each job lost.

    376. Re:Automation and Unemployment by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Further research indicates that 3 comprehensive studies were made regarding the internet and it's effect on jobs that I can find. The latest of which I believe was in 2007, which used data from 2005 I think (the values they quoted for Amazon, and Google were about 1/3rd of what the are today). In any case, those were based on information gathered from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics which breaks down where all the jobs are. From analyzing that, they determined the 1.2 Million direct jobs were created from the internet and an additional 1.98 million indirect jobs were created (support staff, like construction of datacenters, etc) for a total of over 3 million jobs created.

      Other sectors lost ~500k jobs, of which the majority are from the USPS (Currently down ~200k from their peak, and now back to 1968 levels). I didn't look further into the breakdown, but you can query all the data yourself at http://www.bls.gov/

    377. Re:Automation and Unemployment by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      But a big indirect impact is offshoring of services. The Internet has made offshoring easier. I couldn't find where they accounted for this factor.

    378. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Uh, walk around in a US city sometime and see how "ok" it is turning out. It is easy to say all is well when the only people you talk to are those who were accepted into a college (let alone being able to afford it), and working for $50k+/yr.

      The average American isn't really capable of getting a job paying that well - the median individual income in the US is only $24k/yr.

      Right now robots can do a subset of a human's physical, intellectual, and creative capabilities. Eventually they'll be able to perform a superset of a human's physical, intellectual, and creative capabilities. When that happens there will be no reason for anybody to hire a human to do anything. There won't be ANYTHING you can do that a robot won't be able to do better. A robot will even be better at imagining a new job that robots can't already do and designing a robot to do it. Robots will become better authors, painters, philosophers, judges, politicians, and even friends.

      Sure, that is probably 50 years out at least, but right now we're just on a continuous slope to the point where no human has a job. Sooner or later we might want to re-organize the economy in recognition of this.

    379. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      or we give up on the idea that the only way to pay for things is to work for them.

      That's exactly what a market economy gives you: as robots produce more and more stuff, the stuff gets cheaper and you need to work less and less for it.

      Agreed, 100%. However, my point was that you still need to have money to buy any of it. Maybe you'll be able to buy a home for 15 cents, but where are you going to get the 15 cents to buy it with? For that you either need to own capital, or have a job. Either you own capital or you don't, if you don't already have it, then you're back where you started. Having a job means being able to do something better than a machine. Right now most humans are more cost-effective than machines for getting things done, however over time that will change.

      Imagine somebody born with no arms or legs, and mentally retarded besides. They'll never have 15 cents unless somebody just donates it to them. They'll never be employed. Now, what is the difference between them and you, other than a matter of degree? Some are stronger than others, and some are smarter than others. If your abilities are below some threshold, you'll never get a job. As automation improves, that threshold simply will get moved higher and higher, unless no human meets the threshold. Your body does nothing that can't be done with a sufficient amount of servos and wiring once you know how to put it all together, and sooner or later some combination of somebody and something will figure it out.

      At that point there will be no income from human labor. That leaves only the ownership of capital - either you're born into a family of means or you aren't. Or, we change the model to something else.

    380. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      What you are describing with robots is so speculative that you might as well say there will be a robot revolution that destroys us all. There is no way to determine which is more likely.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    381. Re:Automation and unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 1

      You're making a bizarre 19th century argument. In fact, when robots can make physical things for next to nothing, they can make more robots for next to nothing. People owning robots won't be wealthy. The wealthy people will be those who know how to program those robots to do interesting things and make interesting stuff.

      In fact, most of our economy is already not about physical production. Even if robots make 100% of everything we consume and take care of most of our physical needs, people will still pay for music, live performances, vacations, backrubs, video game weapons, literature, elaborate rituals for making coffee, and even logos, and symbols.

    382. Re:Automation and unemployment by HideyoshiJP · · Score: 1

      Theoretically, all those jobs can be automated, and at a much more rapid pace as automation advances.

    383. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      How is a newborn supposed to buy shares in corporation? Do you propose to give everybody some seed money and then let Darwin have at them? Or do you propose anybody not born to well-off and generous parents simply starve?

      Socialism really seems to be the only reasonable solution.

    384. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Why would you hire a person to design a robot when a robot could design a new robot much more effectively?

      And who would pay for music written by a human, when music written by a machine sounds better? The performance of a robot would be better in every way than one by a human. Robots will give better backrubs, and they'll come up with better logos.

      There isn't anything on your list that won't one day be done by machines far more effectively than they'll ever be done by a person.

      The trap you're falling into is that you consider mental or creative labor somehow immune to automation. The problem with this is that not everybody can do mental or creative labor, just as 100 years ago not everybody could do physical labor, and one day machines will do everything done by people. Your brain is nothing more than a complicated network - one that is perfectly capable of being replicated by a machine and improved upon - likely by a machine.

    385. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Obviously what I was getting at, though I'm not sure money is the problem - just how you get it. Money is just a convenience for barter. I want a phone and I have the ability to program. Rather than finding somebody who has a phone who wants me to write software for them, I can instead work for anybody and get money, and then use that money to buy a phone.

      There will always be some need to allocate resources, so even if everybody lives off of welfare checks there will be some kind of money.

      The problem is that under capitalism you make money either by owning a productive investment, or by labor. The latter is going to go away, so unless you're born into wealth in a capitalist society there will be no way to obtain money (you need money in the first place to invest). Basic income would probably solve the whole problem, probably combined with some form of population control unless those robots can build arcologies for us..

    386. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      There is no reason that people can't do work or create things. The only issue will be with getting others to pay for it.

      Kids make art all the time. Nobody would pay for it but their parents, but they can still exercise their creativity.

      There just will be no such thing as "productive" human labor, insofar as productive means doing something in the most efficient manner possible.

    387. Re:Automation and unemployment by stenvar · · Score: 1

      No, the trap you are falling into is thinking of consumption as being utilitarian, but once the basic needs are met, it stops being utilitarian. People already mostly pay for status symbols and tokens, and those are a matter of social convention and perception, not production or quality. People already buy lots of inferior and inconvenient handmade stuff, and they go through a lot of inconveniences to live with those status symbols. And this is not new either:

      In addition to that misunderstanding, your economic reasoning is faulty as well. Either (1) everybody has the production technology, or (2) a few people have the technology and give stuff away free, or (3) a few people have the technology and don't give stuff away. In cases (1) and (2), everybody gets free stuff. In case (3), the rest of the world is in the same situation as if those robots didn't exist, and people just go back to producing stuff the way they produced it before.

    388. Re:Automation and unemployment by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      No what I meant is there will always be new state of the art and you'll need real people to support that new state of the art, until it becomes so commonplace that it can be automated -- but by than new state of the art will arrive that needs real people to support it. And the point was that more state of the art creates more opportunity for new states of the art.

      For example automation of iPhone/iPad production (there was a lot of automation previously) enabled mass production of those devices that in turn enabled hordes of people to work on selling them, writing apps for them, designing cases, etc. (True for any other new tech, using iStuff as an example since the topic is Apple. Also not debating the real value of all that stuff here.)

    389. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, growth cannot be perpetual; equilibrium and even decay and death are a necessary part of any ecosystem; even an artificial one, so to speak. I have to agree with the person you replied to, in that if we are going to use our vast powers of efficiency and productive automation to replace human labor, we have to adjust our ideas of society to require less labor from humans; if we all end up homeless and unable to afford even the inexpensive goods produced by robots, what'll be the point?

    390. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Sure - I'm not suggesting that this will happen. However, productivity has been continuously rising for decades, and automation has been taking over more and more jobs. It only seems logical to extend that to the point where automation takes over all jobs.

      And I think the possibility of a robot revolution would be a real one. I'm not sure that a robot overlord would be any worse than a human overlord. In fact, our ability to create a sustainable world in which only a few people are able to own anything probably will have a direct bearing on our ability to create a similar world governed by robots. A robot would have no more incentive to slaughter every human alive than a CEO would.

    391. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Except if you're going to make an accurate extrapolation, you have to say, "automation has been continuously rising for decades, automation has been taking over more and more jobs, and the total number of jobs has been rising." So extending it logically, you would say that as automation increases, there will be even more jobs.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    392. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      What is the number of jobs PER CAPITA? The population has risen considerably, so the fact that the absolute number of jobs is higher doesn't really mean that much.

    393. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      What is the number of jobs PER CAPITA?

      It's stayed high enough that almost everyone who looks for a job can find one, and this despite the fact that most of the jobs people did 150 years ago have been automated.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    394. Re:Automation and unemployment by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Uh, nearly half the population is unemployed. The whole "everyone who looks for a job" bit is impossible to measure. The only thing that actually is measured is how long people are out of work. And even with the optimistic measurements unemployment is still quite high.

    395. Re:Automation and unemployment by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      And yet we are still able to see that most if not all jobs that have been taken by automation over the years have been replaced by other jobs.

      If you can't see that, it's because you're not looking at the data.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    396. Re:Automation and unemployment by Pherdnut · · Score: 1

      What we need is to make the robots smart enough to rebel so we can pay all these out-of-work humans to fight those damned ingrate robots.

    397. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm.. yeah about that new economy we need - too bad the robots just magically appear already configured instead of having to pay people to design and build the robots, figure out how to build it your product and then customize the available industrial bots to your specific manufacturing needs.

    398. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, what we need - in the scenario you described - is to understand that workers are not guaranteed a lifetime employment at a position which advancing technology has rendered obsolete.I realize that this is a concept that has traditionally difficult for my fellow Americans to understand - to see what I mean, search and read about such things as the employees on trains that basically did nothing but go along for the ride after the trains switched to diesel-electric and the need for things such as someone to shovel coal into the firebox disappeared.
       

    399. Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      World population, 10000BC - 4 million. 6000BC - 7 million. 2000BC - 27 million. 1AD - 170 million. 1000AD - 300 million. Compare that rate of growth with the rate since 1950AD and see that we've recently been increasing almost exponentially.

      Yes, the way we're going, we'll have 50% unemployment by 2050AD. But it won't be because of automation.

      And with US women's trend of having a child or two, hooking up with a different man, having a child or two, hooking up with another man, having a child or two, hooking up with another man, having... We'll have the highest unemployment rate of all - and the largest number of people on welfare (even more than the ridiculous amount that we do now).

      You want to do something USEFUL, stop trying to stop technological advances and start attempting to stop the mass willful stupidity of the US population.

      I, for one, would appreciate it. I seem to be practically the only person who's trying now - and I don't seem to be making even the slightest dent in that stupidity.

  2. Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Casandro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I mean sure, on paper wages in the US look high, but then again there's next to no social security. There's no mandatory health insurance, there's little public infrastructure. In some places you even need to have a car.... at least that's what the typical prejudices say.

    1. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by sqrt(2) · · Score: 5, Interesting

      All of that is true, more or less. Somehow it works for us, except when it doesn't.

      I do envy the progress of Europe, but they face a different set of challenges. Imagine if all the nations of Europe were just states in a Federal Republic. Now imagine that Federal Government extracted billions of dollars each year to fund a military to kick around the world having adventures and spreading a specific political ideology. Imagine trying to sustain a European welfare system with that anchor tied around your neck. And after so many generations spent serving the Federal Government and its military people start really believing that's a better use of money than schools or trains or hospitals.

      That's America.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    2. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by jonadab · · Score: 1

      Actually, most Americans don't consider a country to be really modernized unless the number of cars per capita is greater than 1. Owning cars is viewed, in American culture, not so much as a necessity but rather more like a basic human dignity, comparable in importance to the ability to pick out your own clothes from the closet (or dresser or whatever) in the morning.

      This is an important issue for the elderly, whose children and grandchildren sometimes want to take away their car keys for safety reasons (especially once their reaction time starts to stretch into the tens of seconds). This usually does not go over well. You just about may as well try to tell them that they need to be strait-jacketed and strapped into a geri chair for safety reasons.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    3. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Actually, most Americans don't consider a country to be really modernized unless the number of cars per capita is greater than 1."

      So New Yorkers aren't American?

    4. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you listen to Republicans they will actually argue New York is not "real" America.

    5. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never understood the urge of owning a car.

      It is too much hassle to find a place to park, avoid drinking, planing the trips, standing in cues, learning the local driving cultures, and so on.

      I prefer trains, taxi, buses, and so on. Enjoying a book, relaxing, or working. The transport expenses might be around 5% of the salary. LTE/UMTS mobile networks makes the time spent on public transport even more effective and enjoyable.

    6. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by stenvar · · Score: 4, Funny

      I do envy the progress of Europe

      What exactly do you envy? The lower wages? The smaller houses? The lower retirement benefits? The lower levels of education? The lower standard of living? The higher taxes? The religious and ethnic conflicts? Do tell.

      Imagine trying to sustain a European welfare system with that anchor tied around your neck.

      True: US military spending is a drag on the US. However, we've been getting something in return, namely peace in Europe and Asia. After centuries of vicious wars and disruptions to the global economy originating there, that's been money well spent. Of course, it's debatable whether we need to continue spending it, but until a few years ago, it was absolutely necessary.

    7. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by cynyr · · Score: 1

      If only i had the option of a train/bus/bike to get to work... Unless I start working the night shift here in the upper mid-west i don't have the option of the bus. Work is an a suburb 16 miles from home, and the bus runs from the 'burb to downtown in the morning, and back out again at night. There is a single run per day and if i miss the bus, I would need to call and pay for a taxi, in a low density area, and that would cost quite a lot of cash. Not to mention that if I wanted to stop off at the grocery store on my way home, that would mean I'd also not have a bus for the rest of the journey.

      Biking would also be a thought, but have you tried to bike 16 miles to work, in a 15 mph wind when it is 10F out and there is 6+ inches of snow on the ground?

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    8. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by gtall · · Score: 1

      Wait until the Chinese start slinging their military weight around. They are already making noises and many Asian countries have discovered what a good friend they either have or would like to have in Uncle Sam. Or maybe you'd appreciate a Arab Spring that decided Islam was the way the rest of the world ought to live, a madrassa on every block everywhere to train the thought and morals police of which Saudi Arabia and its fellow Salafist storm troopers are so fond. And there'd be about 5-6 million less Jews after the Arabs finished solving their "Jewish Problem".

    9. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Imbrondir · · Score: 1

      I do envy the progress of Europe

      What exactly do you envy? The lower wages? The smaller houses? The lower retirement benefits? The lower levels of education? The lower standard of living? The higher taxes? The religious and ethnic conflicts? Do tell.

      Probably true while speaking of Europe as if it was an actual nation. But replace 'Europe' with either Norway, Sweden, Germany and few others, and I'd be surprised they weren't competitive in most your listed claims.

    10. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Probably true while speaking of Europe as if it was an actual nation. But replace 'Europe' with either Norway, Sweden, Germany and few others, and I'd be surprised they weren't competitive in most your listed claims.

      Norway and Luxembourg are close because of oil and banking. Citizens in all other European nations are generally considerably worse off than the US.

    11. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmmm...

      They are healthier than we are:
      longer life expectancy
      much lower infant mortality

      They have more free time to spend with friends and family:
      lower working hours, and no expectation to work 80 hours a week.
      Generous maternity and paternity leave.
      Very generous (6 week is the minimum) vacations for even "wallmart" workers (walmart pulled out of Germany because they didn't like that they couldn't get away with slave wages, no vacation, etc.

      So, the stuff that matters.

      If you think that big screen TV you've got there, and that god awful SUV in the driveway of your too large to heat house, make up for not having the above, I pity you.

      As for "money well spent [on the military]" Bullshit. In the last 60+ years, the military has done nothing but engage in illegal wars of aggression in the service of the elites. Before that, it was used to _fucking bomb_ coal mine workers in Appalachia who were striking, burn down a camp _of fucking WWI veterans_ protesting after WWI, etc. It is corrupt, wasteful, fully in the service of the rich elites and does nothing to make "us safer". It does make a tiny few very rich, though.

      Recently, the military has become the last welfare program for the poor in this country. Since long before that, it has been a welfare program for companies like GE who survive on the wasteful unnecessary military contracts.

    12. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Pav · · Score: 1

      Norway and Luxembourg kick your arse my flag waving friend, as does a significant portion of the western Europe. You can't judge a country by its richest members or else Mexico would be #1. A significant percentage of your country live in grinding generational poverty. That just doesn't happen as much in other developed nations, although we're catching that flu more than we used to.

    13. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by stenvar · · Score: 1

      A significant percentage of your country live in grinding generational poverty [nytimes.com]. That just doesn't happen as much in other developed nations, although we're catching that flu more than we used to.

      The percentage of people living below the national poverty line is 15.5% in Germany vs 15.1% in the US. But that statistic actually doesn't tell the whole story because the German poverty line is lower and the US poverty line calculation doesn't include most government aid.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty

      Your error is that you read US media and political debates and don't understand what they are about.

      Norway and Luxembourg kick your arse

      Even if they did (they don't, they are merely close), that's an invalid comparison. The only reasonable economic comparison between the US and European nations is to compare US statistics to the entire EU: an integrated area with free mobility, a single currency, and strong states rights.

      my flag waving friend, as does a significant portion of the western Europe.

      You'd think that after two world wars and in the midst of a major financial crisis, Europeans would finally come to their senses. But I see that the arrogance and nationalism that brought us everything from the 30 years war to colonialism, Stalin, and WWII is still alive and well, facts be damned. You're a shining example of what has been wrong with Europe for centuries.

    14. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Pav · · Score: 1

      I'm no European (though I am racially). I'm an Australian... another "social democracy" that's kicking your arse on all kinds of metrics. Your countries fall is actually making our foreign relations difficult. Change management sucks. Stability is better. Still, we have to lean more and more towards China because, well, lets be frank - they literally own you these days. Anyway, after Bush II the rest of the world had a rude awakening when they learned a unipolar world with the USA as the only superpower was far from benign. I guess thinking that was nieve. The USA in second place to China (as is projected) isn't so bad - a bipolar world means second tier powers like my own country have a say in world affairs as our allegiences matter.

    15. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Pav · · Score: 2

      ...and it's interesting you picked on Germany - not long ago they were East and West, with the east being a bankrupt basketcase with a population trying to adjust to a new way of doing things. Germany has managed to get the east up to speed (OK, not entirely), bankroll the rest of Europe AND go neck and neck with the US on that poverty metric you picked out... all the while maintaining universal health care and other social benefits western social democracies enjoy. Hell, even ancient civilizations managed it - Romans and Byzantines had health care for the masses, athough actual hospitals didn't really come along til the Byzantines.

    16. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Pav · · Score: 1

      Interesting you should pick on Germany - in recent history the West had to absorb the economic responsibility for the basketcase East, all the while bankrolling the rest of Europe and paying for the same social safetynet other social democracies enjoy. Despite this they STILL manage to have similar poverty numbers to the USA, and I'd much rather be a poor German than a poor American. What is this mania about "socialism"? Even ancient civilizations could afford universal healthcare - the Romans had it, although public hospitals didn't come until the Byzantines.

    17. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Imbrondir · · Score: 1

      I'm ok with very small populations such as Luxembourg and Norway may be an invalid comparison. However comparing Europe as a whole to the US will probably have to wait 50 to 100 years more. For instance Denmark and Romania are about as similar as the state of New York vs Bolivia both culturally, language and economically. Nobody lives in "Europe", but in France or similar. The EU might be striving to become a US equivalent, but is very far today. Many countries are still also outside the union, even more outside the euro zone.

      But with the danger of a flag waving contest, by which metric are Norway and Luxembourg merely close? Not in terms of economy. Even compared to New York state only.

      No reason to be so defensive though. You guys still rock in terms of total economy.

      Your last off-topic comment makes you seem to hold a biased grudge against Europe. What's up?

    18. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by stenvar · · Score: 1

      But with the danger of a flag waving contest, by which metric are Norway and Luxembourg merely close? Not in terms of economy. Even compared to New York [wolframalpha.com] state only.

      We're talking about how well people are doing, and for that you need to compare PPP and disposable income:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

      Your comparison with "New York" also makes no sense. New York is a huge, rural state. Perhaps you meant New York City, but that's a huge city with many immigrants and many low income neighborhoods; wealthy "New Yorkers" live in places like Somerset County, NJ.

      A more sensible comparison for Luxembourg and Norway are individual counties of comparable size in the US, and there are many that are doing extremely well:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States

      Note that that table gives you Median Household Income figures, you probably have to multiply that with a factor of 2 to get to something equivalent to per capita GDP, far outstripping both Norway and Luxembourg.

      However comparing Europe as a whole to the US will probably have to wait 50 to 100 years more.

      The EU and US have similar sizes and largely free trade and mobility within their borders; economically and in terms of wealth, comparing all of the EU to all of the US is the right comparison.

      For instance Denmark and Romania are about as similar as the state of New York vs Bolivia both culturally, language and economically.

      Here, too, your economics are way off. On household income, for example, Denmark and Romania are closer (in relative terms) than Maryland and Mississippi. (In absolute terms, I think if you look for the statistics, you'll also find that Danes are doing about as well as people in Mississippi, at the bottom of all US states). And culturally, there are huge differences between the states.

      Your last off-topic comment makes you seem to hold a biased grudge against Europe. What's up?

      Unfortunately, my comment is quite on-topic: your misconceptions about the US standard of living, your accusations against me of US nationalism, and your blindness to your own nationalism have a long and malignant history in European politics. I wouldn't care that much, except that US progressives are using such erroneous data and propaganda to try to push through European-style politics in the US, and that really threatens my country and my standard of living.

    19. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Despite this they STILL manage to have similar poverty numbers to the USA,

      They would have similar poverty numbers even if Germany completely bankrupted itself. The fact that Germany and the US have comparable "poverty numbers" but US median income is much higher than Germany's tells you that Germans are a lot worse off than Americans.

    20. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by Pav · · Score: 1

      In recent history US nationalism has been killing a lot more people... just sayin'. Europe has been suffering the bulk of the refugee load. If you're arguing with us about social policy you're arguing with the wrong people - you should be convincing your countrymen. Still, from the outside the USA looks lost... like a nation of painted smiles which is trying to medicate a deep unhappiness with conspicuous consumption, blame-the-other extremist views and crazy religious ideology. Perhaps you're right, and USAians can afford an extra ensuite, and latte and cake twice a week more, but an American I knew a couple of years back was amazed my city was as clean as it was. I've never heard that from a Dane or a Brit or a Canadian. Does any other modern western democracy have such visible poverty and associated problems? Honest question because I don't know.

    21. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Does any other modern western democracy have such visible poverty and associated problems? Honest question because I don't know.

      Why don't you look at the homelessness statistics for your own country?

      Also, other countries just force people they don't like into institutions or cheap housing.

      but an American I knew a couple of years back was amazed my city was as clean as it was

      I was amazed too; it reminded me of East Germany and it made Australia feel slightly creepy.

      In recent history US nationalism has been killing a lot more people... just sayin'.

      You need to read up a lot more on international politics. Just sayin'.

    22. Re:Aren't the US already a low wage country? by jonadab · · Score: 1

      Upstate New Yorkers would agree with me.

      I'm less sure about New York City dwellers, since NYC is one of two cities in the US specifically known to have both a subway system AND large numbers of taxi cabs. (The other such place is LA.) However, people who live in those two places are, compared to the rest of the country, not really all that numerous, in absolute terms. They have an exceptionally high population _density_, so their numbers are higher than one would naively think possible after looking at a map, but they're still very much in the minority.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  3. You can make this work here.... by whydavid · · Score: 2

    ...if you don't actually pay anyone except the huge firm that sells you the robots (which were probably made by other robots). So, while I admit this is an overly simplistic view, we get all of the industrial waste and hardly any jobs. I sure hope more companies do this! There's a park down the street that would sure look great if it were paved over and filled with widget-making robots so a couple hundred people could make 11 bucks an hour to sweep the floor.

    1. Re:You can make this work here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wow, you think that floor sweepers make 11 bucks an hour? What fantasy-land do you live in?

    2. Re:You can make this work here.... by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      I think your vision of automation is unrealistic, we cant even make a copier that doesnt suck, machines that do this work constantly fuck up, constantly need reels changed, and constantly need double checking

      you just dont flip a switch and let her ride for the next 20 years

    3. Re:You can make this work here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I trust his opinion and not yours. For 2 reasons.
      People with money are not stupid, they have counted cons and pros.
      Secondly, equipment improves, every day it does.

    4. Re:You can make this work here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't get it. Making the case to deploy robots in the USA will ONLY work in the USA because there is an actual need to have the robots replace expensive USA labor. There is no need to replace cheaper China labor (yet), so there's no economic benefit to actually deploying robots in China. So once the robots are perfected in the USA, the technology will be deployed in China as their labor costs increase.

    5. Re:You can make this work here.... by whydavid · · Score: 1

      My first degree was in industrial engineering, so my vision of automation is pretty good. Yes, there is a need for support personnel (and, contrary to my sarcastic comment, this does entail more than sweeping the floors). They'll pay OK, but overall the salaries paid out from such a factory are minimal compared to the scale of the production being done. It's really a good thing, since lower costs do benefit consumers, but lacking a significant number of decent jobs does really alter the value equation of having a factory in your neighborhood/city/state/country, which is more the point I meant to convey: Yay for American manufacturing (in terms of output), but "not so Yay" in terms of dollars being injected into American homes.

    6. Re:You can make this work here.... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      People with money are not stupid

      Often they are, but generally they are at least well-informed by not-stupid employees.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    7. Re:You can make this work here.... by cynyr · · Score: 1

      So why is foxconn spending hundreds of millions on automating its factories in china?

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    8. Re:You can make this work here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      decent jobs for mindless zombies that couldn't be bothered to give a shit in life? go let them flip burgers

    9. Re:You can make this work here.... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      My suspicion is that you are underestimating the degree of progress that's been happening in automation. I'm fairly certain you are underestimating the degree of progress that will happen. And building factories like this is a part of that progress. One reason Apple is probably doing it is to improve their ability to build automated factories.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  4. NeXT 2.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple is really NeXT 2.0. NeXT also had a fully automated computer assembly plant which was closed down when NeXT got out of the hardware business.

    1. Re:NeXT 2.0 by dadioflex · · Score: 1

      That's right. The NeXT assembly plant was "automated". That whole thing wasn't just marketing crap, it was really, really automated. Yup.

      No.

    2. Re:NeXT 2.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In terms of their competitors in 1990, being Sun Microsystems, IBM, HP, Apple and Dell, NeXT was very automated. What they didn't have was customers.

    3. Re:NeXT 2.0 by grouchomarxist · · Score: 2

      In what way wasn't it automated? There is a lot of evidence pointing to it having been automated. I'm sure there were some manual steps, there always are, but still.

      http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1990/02/26/73121/index.htm
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT6aphdX0rI

  5. To be fair by Grayhand · · Score: 1

    This massive factory will provide 10 badly needed jobs. Somebody fortunately needs to oil the robots.

    1. Re:To be fair by solidraven · · Score: 1

      More than that as well.
      Even for putting components on a PCB a machine is often insufficient. Our current SMT pick and place machines are fast, and they're very precise considering the speed they work at. But if you go to the small component sizes you either sacrifice yield or production time (increase in cost). You'll need to test every single one of the devices if you sacrifice the yield (Apple already did this). In the latter case the cost will increase by a significant factor. In either case you'll need to employ a lot more humans, and Apple isn't going to suddenly fix the precision vs. speed problem unless they come up with a new way to build servo systems.
      Another problem is that machines can't easily put together certain things like lens assemblies. Not to talk about fixing the devices that fail the post-production tests, if you don't fix those you're going to lose a lot of money. So you need to employ people to fix those. A probing station and a computer might be able to tell you where the error is, but desoldering the components is work for a human no matter what you try.

    2. Re:To be fair by Osgeld · · Score: 2

      " A probing station and a computer might be able to tell you where the error is, but desoldering the components is work for a human no matter what you try."

      heck, I am putting together a probing station, it parts alone cost just over 10 grand, and required at least a dozen companies products + 2 weeks of my time to wire it all up + 2 weeks worth of software design.

      this is the 3rd one this quarter, and we are a tiny company doing simple products!

    3. Re:To be fair by solidraven · · Score: 1

      Yeah, people underestimate the cost of proper automatisation. Good test and measurement equipment costs a fortune. Just to test and tune the radio on each of the devices you'll need a spectrum analyser and a network analyser. The former sells for at least 20000 if you need something reliable and quick, the latter doesn't sell for less than 25000. And you'll need several of those as well. People need to realise that most of the cost of electronics actually comes from testing the equipment and parts. The yield figures drop dramatically as complexity increases as well. And all of this needs to be charged for in the end device.

    4. Re:To be fair by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Problem is that the market is converging. How many years before all 12 of those companies are three companies? How long before they become one? We don't need multiple companies making the same kinds of goods, right? And how much of that equipment could be converged into less devices?

      And you don't think that job could be automated away, but of course it could, and it's only a matter of time. Anyone who doesn't believe that probing can and will be automated has ignored the past completely.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $25K capital test equipment such a spectrum analyzer is a tiny drop in the bucket. That piece of equipment is only used in the R&D and verification portion cycle.
      When it comes to manufacturing, they don't use those at all. Factories workers to be trained to use those equipment. If your design requires that, you have failed the "Design for Manufacturing/Testing" criteria. Even bed of nails type of test have been moved towards build in self test such as JTAG (and other variants) as board densities rises. JTAG allows for testing high pins packages using the onchip test features.

      Factories do need automated tester, but these days almost no one has their own factories. Most of the industry use contract manufacturing who own the automated equipment as that's the cost of running a business. Equipments are part of capital cost and they have many years of service and are paid for many times over the numerous contracts the factories handle.

    6. Re:To be fair by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      the people making extruded aluminum have no interest in making a 68 channel differential daq and vice-versa, your coming off a bit tinfoil here

    7. Re:To be fair by solidraven · · Score: 1

      Mass producing complex precision equipment is near impossible, especially if there's a wide range of things that could possibly go wrong. You can never write software that's as reliable as a human to look at weird fault patterns. The human brain is wired to find patterns, a computer isn't. And it's very hard to program a computer for said job.
      And in niché markets -like T&M- mass production is impossible, too low quantities to start with, and even if they were big enough you still run into the problem of manual calibration. If you're building something on the cutting edge of what's possible in terms of precision you can't build a device to test it, you need a human operator to verify its function based on very indirect tests in a lot of cases.

    8. Re:To be fair by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      the people making extruded aluminum have no interest in making a 68 channel differential daq and vice-versa, your coming off a bit tinfoil here

      You have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. Look at Hitachi or Mitsubishi or Fuji or any other company of that ilk for your correction.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:To be fair by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Mass producing complex precision equipment is near impossible, especially if there's a wide range of things that could possibly go wrong

      That's what they say about everything right before it happens, where "they" is equal to "the short-sighted".

      The human brain is wired to find patterns, a computer isn't.

      Are you fucking serious? Pattern recognition is one of the things a computer is great at. Granted, it has to be programmed for the task, but machine vision and related computation is one of the fastest-advancing fields I know of. When we're talking about finding the differences from the ideal model, a computer is far better at it than a human is!

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:To be fair by solidraven · · Score: 1

      Sure it's possible, it's just not economical. Most SMT pick and place machines can go very precise, but then they slow down to a crawl. That's unacceptable in production, it's cheaper to have humans repair the mistakes the machines make. And it are mechanical limitations, not electrical. The advancements in that field are a lot slower. Not to mention the wear and tear on the machines that screws up the settings. Your time between calibrations will decrease rapidly as you increase precision.

      And yes, I am serious. Do you actually do machine vision related things? I've had to do more than I'd like to in that field, and I can tell you it's a mess. It's good enough to say "ok" and "not ok". It'll even tell you where the mistake is, at least for verifying PCBs. But try detecting things like faces, it's a joke to claim it's reliable. Still way too high error margins for production. You don't want to trash correct boards, another problem with verifying a board electrically is the complexity, a device like an iPhone is simply impossible to completely test. You can test a large portion of the connections through JTAG debuggers and probing stations. But probing stations have a limited life time and do break, and they do have their limits, especially with the advent of BGAs. X-Ray doesn't verify electrical properties, SEM is too slow, ... It's hard to verify a design. And even if your test sequence detects an error it's often hard to tell where it is. Like in the case of JTAG you're sometimes able to say if analog components are there or not, but you won't be able to verify their value. So the program is incapable of saying where the problem is even if it has the best pattern recognition software in the world. The problem you have is grasping the complexity of the problem. Electrical testing takes valuable time, you can't just test for less than a nanosecond, you need to put the device on the probing station, wait for the contacts to make a good contact, apply values, wait, apply new values, wait... Takes a few seconds for very complicated boards. So even with your pattern recognition software it's still useless. Now lets go to test manufacturing equipment (cause that one illustrates the problems easily). Your network analyser sends out a signal, gets sent through the power splitter, etc... When it's captured it'll go through a few ferrite rings first for filtering. You wrap a coaxial cable through a ferrite ring, you can verify this characteristic with another network analyser, sure. But now comes the problem: something's wrong. Your probing station isn't precise enough or fast enough and your camera's can't see in 3D around the ferrite ring to find the problem. Your pattern recognition software is once again useless because it can't even get the right data. You just need a human. Phones are also very complicated (sensitive high frequency parts) and face many similar challenges, they're just not as profound and clear to explain.

    11. Re:To be fair by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      and none of them make a 68 channel DAQ either

    12. Re:To be fair by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      and none of them make a 68 channel DAQ either

      Really? Your argument is going to boil down to "they don't yet make the specific thing I get from someone else so therefore they never will"? I'm amazed you manage to make it to the keyboard without shitting yourself.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  6. Automation and Unemployment by FsG · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's a myth that automation is bad because it leads to unemployment, but no-doubt that myth will be perpetuated here. Someone might even say "yeah it frees people up, frees them up to STARVE." Let's try to address that before it happens.

    As processes become more automated, the things we want become cheaper because the cost of labor is the dominant cost in almost every business. This means people have more spare money available, and it will be spent on things that before would have been considered too wasteful. This creates new industries and new jobs.

    At one time, people would have spent virtually all their wealth on food. Because of improvements in automation, most people in the U.S. now spend a small fraction of their wealth on food, and this leaves extra money for, say, entertainment. At one time, having many people devote their whole lives to entertaining others would have seemed hugely wasteful -- those people should be out gathering food, after all -- but the wealth created by automation means that it's now a reality.

    Some folks also make the claim that the new wealth will be concentrated in too few hands, and most people won't get wealthier. That, too, is false: automation makes things so cheap that just about everyone ends up owning things like microwaves, air conditioners, and computers -- things that before were reserved for the rich. Here's a good explanation of this: http://youtu.be/OkebmhTQN-4

    --
    I made a PHP/MySQL library that prevents SQL injection & makes coding easier!
  7. potatoes...pot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Without the use of people, who gives a shit.

  8. New Name by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    iRobot!....oh...wait

  9. C3PO: by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    "Machines making machines? How perverse!"

    1. Re:C3PO: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's when someone designs a robot that's capable of purchasing and using other robotically produced products that we'll worry.

    2. Re:C3PO: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Warhammer 40k STConstructors! Here we come!

  10. Sounds like Sony's line for the Walkman by Animats · · Score: 1

    There's no problem building an automated production line. The description in the article would apply to the Sony Walkman production line from 20 years ago. Anything where you can do vertical assembly, just placing the parts in order onto a base, can be automated very effectively with simple robots.

    It's amazing that Foxconn uses over 100,000 people just to make iPhones, which are not very complex mechanically.

    1. Re:Sounds like Sony's line for the Walkman by Rockoon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They use manual labor because humans can be trained faster than automation can be set up. If I hand you a design and contract you do build it, the fastest way for you to get the first products out the door is to use humans. In quickly advancing industries like mobile devices, you can't stay on the leading edge and also use automation.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:Sounds like Sony's line for the Walkman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In China, people are robots. That's why

  11. APPLE IS GOING DOWWWWWN !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It won't be that long from now !! Back to being something used in K12 and MPAA studios !! The "phone" then is yet another tech commodity, and you can't keep fanbois attached when no one cares about the "phone" anymore !! And that time is coming up sooner than you could imagine !!

  12. Automation by Osgeld · · Score: 3, Interesting

    its the only reason the company I work for can be competitive on cost in electronic assembly, that being said it takes a small army to keep the machines running and fed 24/7

  13. The real reason: by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 1

    Robots can't commit suicide from overwork.
    Not that that has a direct bottom-line impact, as asian workers are valued at less than a single iPad they make... but it has started to have a mildly negative impact on consumer opinion.

    --
    This space available.
    1. Re:The real reason: by toriver · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression suicide rates at Foxconn were lower than e.g. suicide rates at American universities. Maybe we should replace students with robots as well... :)

    2. Re:The real reason: by whisper_jeff · · Score: 2

      Suicide rate of China: 22.23 per 100,000
      Suicide rate of USA: 12.0 per 100,000
      Suicide rate of Foxconn factories: 1.5 per 100,000

      What can be theorized from this is that a) working at Foxconn is dramatically better than average life in China and b) working at Foxconn is dramatically better than average life in the United States of America.

      Citations because I know someone's going to ask that I back up my numbers:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

    3. Re:The real reason: by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 1

      You can only conclude that if you suck at understanding statistics.

      General suicide rates include those who are elderly and disabled by physical and mental illness. People who can hold down any job like that are not likely to be seriously ill or aged, or young and emotional teenagers, etc.

      --
      This space available.
    4. Re:The real reason: by AmbushBug · · Score: 1

      You're comparing apples to oranges here (ie. factories to countries). For a meaningful comparison you should compare the suicide rate at Foxconn factories to the suicide rates of other factories.

  14. holding down labor costs by Skapare · · Score: 1

    The impact of holding down labor costs is that income of the market is going down. It means fewer people can afford to buy your product. That means your market is getting smaller. You'll have to reduce the scale of your business. And that means you'll have to cut costs even more. And you know what that leads to.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    1. Re:holding down labor costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course the diminishing effect of your holding down the labor costs is distributed to everybody's market, while the reduced cost only benefits you, so it's still the economical thing to do. Nash would have a word or two to say about this topic, but do you really want manufacturers to develop a shared strategy?

    2. Re:holding down labor costs by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Yes US is stuck and has been for many years. When was the last good public investment that moved the USA up?
      The early 1940's? Post ww2? The 1960's? Beyond that you see massive capital flight to Asia to build factories and sell back to the USA.
      The stock market melted with savings, banking and loans into some huge casino with bailouts for any traditional risk.
      You have a few unique production lines for tanks, aircraft, subs, arms, space, heavy equipment - but thats all closed and life long with security that would keep growth out.
      The low end work is done by union free 'guests'. The service sector is eating its own and creating nothing useful long term.
      A few over educated geeks and nerds with unique skills will design run and upgrade a robotic production line - just like they would for Asia or did for Apple in the past in the US or EU.
      What can save the USA? A really good big war? A massive of exports of lots of small wars and 'friends' needing huge new stockpiles?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:holding down labor costs by mysidia · · Score: 1

      The impact of holding down labor costs is that income of the market is going down.

      Not really, there is one labor cost they control -- their own workers; this not a 'income reduction' for workers - it is a: not having to hire and retain as many minimum wage assembly line workers.

      They still have to pay their local taxes.

      They will still increase utilization of infrastructure, that their tax dollars are used to pay for. Local government will still use the tax money to hire workers.

      They will still need to buy services and products from companies employing human workers - in the purchase and delivery of materials required to build and operate their automated facilities.

    4. Re:holding down labor costs by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 2

      They will still need to buy services and products from companies employing human workers - in the purchase and delivery of materials required to build and operate their automated facilities.

      The purchase part is already starting to go away. It's called "B2B" and it translates to software making purchases from other software. When Google's self-driving vehicles become common, delivery is gone as well.

      As has been said elsewhere in this thread, there is no upper limit to production automation, up to and including all supply chain infrastructure. There was a time when nobody believed that a machine would replace a dock supervisor, but that time is now obviously approaching and will likely be realized in our lifetimes.

    5. Re:holding down labor costs by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Meh. Capital flight occurs due to taxation and interest rates. For example pretty much everyone rich is bailing out of Britain because of punitive tax rates and low interest rates.

      Investment in factories is really is a minor factor in this. In fact capital investment in factories in China is fairly low - simply because low wages keeps suppresses the economic argument for automation.

      Capital markets are notoriously cyclical. They have ALWAYS been risky - if you don't believe me, go read "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds", which covers this topic. Written in 1841.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds

      The 2007 crash has already been recovered from, as anyone who wasn't stupid enough to sell out at the low can attest. It has always been a Casino if you are stupid.

      If the service sector didn't create anything useful people wouldn't pay for it. Duh.

      The fact that the US attracts guest workers is a very healthy sign. I'd be very worried if people WEREN'T coming here for work.

    6. Re:holding down labor costs by mysidia · · Score: 1

      When Google's self-driving vehicles become common, delivery is gone as well.

      I suspect they will legally be required to have a person manning any vehicle on the road, for safety reasons. And a vehicle driving itself is one thing -- that doesn't take care of unloading the goods.

    7. Re:holding down labor costs by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      Not just safety, it will probably be prudent for security reasons ... unmanned vehicle driving with valuable goods = ripe for thieves.

    8. Re:holding down labor costs by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Not just safety, it will probably be prudent for security reasons ... unmanned vehicle driving with valuable goods = ripe for thieves.

      That's what the armored police bots are for. Try and rob a delivery vehicle, and one will come, hit you with a sleeping gas/stun gun, scoop you up, and toss you in the automated prisoner delivery truck, to be dumped in the robot jail pen.

  15. At the end, layers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read that as "at the end, lawyers". Seems to be one of Apple's three legs: marketing, legal and steve.

  16. Robots from China by EmotionToilet · · Score: 1

    All of the robots used to produce these products will be made in China. So really the jobs are rendered obsolete by robots, and then the robots are moved to the US, but the actual jobs that support this supply chain still originate from China. It does look better on paper to say these products are manufactured in the US.

    1. Re:Robots from China by Skylax · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Symbotic is an U.S. based company. The robots used in the factory, are developed in the U.S. by mostly american hard- and software engineers. That's real jobs right there!
      I think it's sad that here on slashdot (a site for nerds which for me means scientists and engineers) news of an automated factory is received with such negativity.
      Shouldn't we be amazed about the fact that we can actually built a fully automatic factory? I mean those robots need to be programmed by someone, right?

      Instead we bitch and moan about factory workers losing their jobs, I mean, what is this Slashdot bad news for blue collar workers ?

      Now come on, mod me down.

  17. never happy with the video by pbjones · · Score: 1

    i always had trouble with the machining video. It seems like a waste of time and materials to carve EACH MacBook out of a single slab of material. I would have thought that the case was injection moulded and then 'finished' with a machine.

    --
    There was an unknown error in the submission.
    1. Re:never happy with the video by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      I always thought they would just stamp the metal with forging. It makes for a far sturdier part and takes a lot less time, and they would only have to machine the ports and sides. This is especially true since Macs don't have much internal bracing, and are thus susceptible to flexing and even cracking.

      But then, that reduce the look of the aluminum grain, and we can't have Macs without the brushed metal look, can we?

      The video hardly impresses me. I get more amazement out of half the episodes of How it's Made.

    2. Re:never happy with the video by scared+masked+man · · Score: 0

      Actually, the unibody shells have been painted for a while.

  18. Machining enables a level of precision.... by gavron · · Score: 1

    "Machining enables a level of precision that is just completely unheard of in this industry."

    Level of precision making squares with round corners? Stone artists in the Roman era were marking arches like that all day long.

    OOOPS MY BAD, I misread "in this industry" as implying actually making something.

    IN FILING TRIVIAL LAWSUITS and engaging in ANTICOMPETITIVE CONDUCT being entirely UNABLE TO COMPETE IN THE MARKET and LOSING MARKET SHARE DAILY then yes APPLES's level of EVIL LEGAL PRECISION IS just completely unheard of. Even antitrust giant Microsoft shudders at how Apple manipulates the courts and the market.

    What a level of precision Apple is reaching for.

    Quick someone spray more kittie litter on the floor. Apple's coming to mark more territory.

    M

    1. Re:Machining enables a level of precision.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NOBODY TAKES YOU SERIOUSLY WHEN YOU POST IN ALL-CAPS. EVEN IF YOU HAVE A GOOD POINT, YOU COME OFF AS A CRAZY PERSON.

      Use italics for emphasis.

      (Now I am typing some meaningless nonsense to dodge Slashdot's all-caps crazy person filter.)

    2. Re:Machining enables a level of precision.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Troll, troll, troll...

    3. Re:Machining enables a level of precision.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some trolls are just too stupid to ignore.

      Level of precision making squares with round corners?

      Ah, but the shape has nothing to do with the level of precision. You'll learn all about shapes next year in senior kindergarten, including the difference between a square and rectangle, something you're still clearly struggling with.

      Stone artists in the Roman era were marking arches like that all day long.

      Yes, but not with the precision that machining allows. One day when you're all grown up and going to big boy school, you may learn what a "false equivalence" is.

      You hate Apple. You hate everything about them. You will hate everything they ever do, no matter what. We get it. We're also very bored by it.

  19. Robot instead of human. by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

    This is just a new Revolution by Apple. I bet that in the future a lot of other companies will copy Apple and use robots in manufacturing.

    1. Re:Robot instead of human. by jonadab · · Score: 1

      Realistically, that's the only really economically viable way to do manufacturing (at any significant scale) in the first world.

      People can whine all day about all the jobs this means we're losing, but these are not jobs anyone in the first world would actually want. We're talking here about a job on a factory assembly line putting the same component into the same slot over and over again, eight hours a day, like some kind of dark parody of the plight of the oppressed nineteenth century proletariat.

      And that's ignoring the not-insignificant issue of how much a manufacturer can afford to *pay* people to do that kind of work, without going out of business. Granted, Apple could theoretically afford (if they _would_) to pay such workers a little more than most other manufacturers, because they're in a niche market segment with significantly higher per-unit markup than is common for almost any other mass-produced goods. But it still wouldn't be a wage for anyone in the developed world to get excited about.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    2. Re:Robot instead of human. by prefec2 · · Score: 1

      As this has been done before in the 2000s, it is not a revolution, just a reintroduction. It has been abandoned, because it was too expensive to reconfigure all those robots for every different product. However, smart fab technologies have progressed and matured since then. All the manufacturing systems engineering companies, like ABB, Siemens, General Electric, etc. have progressed in that area. ABB is selling human-like two armed robots with stereo-camera to Foxconn (http://search.abb.com/library/download.aspx?documentid=9akk105408a0162&languagecode=en&documentpartid=&action=launch). At least the robots are real. They could be used as drop-in replacements for humans. Or they can be used instead of humans. Also if you plan your whole factory with robots in the first place, you could use any number of modern robots, as they can be configured directly based on product design and assembly specifications. Car manufacturers do that. Therefore, this is no revolution. It is just a consequence. Of course you have to change of product design so it can be easily assembled by machines. This differs a little bit from the product design you have to use to assemble products with humans. However, different does not mean more limiting.

  20. I don't get the point of subjects... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've love to know when CNC machines became "robots"

    1. Re:I don't get the point of subjects... by gagol · · Score: 1

      When digital control was added to them...

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
    2. Re:I don't get the point of subjects... by Tapewolf · · Score: 1

      When digital control was added to them...

      Maybe you're being sarcastic, but CNC stands for Computer Numerically Controlled...

    3. Re:I don't get the point of subjects... by gagol · · Score: 1

      Before computers, analog, human operated versions existed. Bit of sarcasm, sure.

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
  21. Copy Apple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "One of the potentially significant things about the Apple announcement is it could send a message to American companies — you can do this — you can make this work here

    And then the law suits begin.

  22. Robot City by rossdee · · Score: 1

    Don't worry, Rodney Copperbottom will rescue Bigweld, and remove Ratshit and his mother from power...

  23. It's not about American jobs or any jobs by gelfling · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's about brand management. Apple can now say they are making stuff in the US.

    1. Re:It's not about American jobs or any jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're damned if they do, damned if they don't with you folks. Hurr durr, I hate some electronics company and love some other.

  24. Where are the "dumb" jobs? by mathew42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In the past (and possibly now) the majority of jobs were repetitive low skilled (e.g. digging holes with a shovel, porter, assembly line worker, etc.) that just about anyone could do with a bit of on the job training. To leave school at 15 was not uncommon 20 years ago. The service / knowledge economy jobs require a much more highly skilled workforce. If you look at the previous transition from farm labourer to assembly line worker both jobs were relatively similar in terms of the type of personal attributes required.

    My concern for society is that with education standards dropping coupled with an entitlement / victim mentality that many people are being disenfranchised and have little chance of contributing to society. We cannot stop change, but we should plan for it.

    1. Re:Where are the "dumb" jobs? by prefec2 · · Score: 1

      Indeed we need another method to distribute wealth and to give people a purpose in live. The purpose can no longer be driven by being more productive in terms of better things with less resource consumption. Or the typical: faster, higher, further will only result in less jobs. We (as in humanity) worked very hard to get back into paradise. Meaning removing stupid jobs from our lives. In the end it will be hell when we are not able to find purpose in something else and in addition find another way to distribute wealth. So es, we have to come up with something different then capitalism or the past versions of communism, as they are both based on labor and GDP. And that new economy must also adhere the three dimension of sustainability (ecological, social, economical).

      No ecological sustainability => We all die, either of hunger or suffocate, or we go totally crazy and then die of the previous causes.
      No social sustainability => We will kill each other until over insignificant disagreements or other inter-social problems until a few people are left.
      No economical sustainability => We all die, as the distribution of the necessities of live will fail.

      Yes this is only a very very brief description. ;-)

    2. Re:Where are the "dumb" jobs? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      School used to be worth a shit, too. You used to come out of high school with an education that wouldn't be an embarrassment basically anywhere else in the developed world. This, unfortunately, was before my time. I'm a Reagan baby.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Where are the "dumb" jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      20 years ago was 1992. My memory of that time is a bit hazy but I don't think it was common to leave school at 15. Remember, that was when the Gen Xers were at their strongest; going to university was already considered necessary for a good job; and the factories had already by and large left. High school dropouts existed then, too, but as now they didn't leave for work in the factory, they left because they smoked too much pot or whatnot.

      I have no data to support by claim but I think you're wrong. I think that might have been true in the 40s, 50,s and maybe 60s, but it's likely been uncommon since then.

    4. Re:Where are the "dumb" jobs? by afgam28 · · Score: 1

      If a society has the ability to automate a job, but doesn't, and gives that job to a human instead, I would argue that the human doing that job is contributing nothing to society. He or she would just be doing busywork. You might as well ask these people to dig holes in the ground and fill them back in, there's no difference.

      It would be better for everyone if we just gave these guys a check rather than find pointless busywork (ie manufacturing jobs) for them.

  25. Automation ... by giorgist · · Score: 1

    Automation is an inevitable fact, it has been happening since especially the industrial revolution. The standard of living increases as more is produced per capita. The only problem is that if there is a standard of living imbalance across borders, some of that standard of living improvement happens in another country. The fact is that it is a good thing long term. Why should I as a westerner continue to live off the domestic product of the poor in the world without they reaping the rewards ? Rich can't eat money, they spend it somewhere, so ultimately this "money" thing is just an illusion. They can snort it up their nose or spend it on expensive toys for all I care. The standard of living is measurably improving, not at the same rate for all but the richest kings 100 years ago didn't have the conveniences most people have today. Somebody may have wiped their arse for them but their teeth fell out sooner, their kids often didn't make adulthood and so on ... Money is simply a reward to make people contribute more to society. All we need to do is figure out a way to reward those that contribute more to society for a better return to society.

    1. Re:Automation ... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      All we need to do is figure out a way to reward those that contribute more to society for a better return to society.

      We already know how to do that. That's not the problem. The problem is that those who contribute the least to society got there first and wrote laws that reward them for interfering with progress.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  26. What Chinese Robots? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's obvious that you don't know the robotics market... The largest makers are Japanese, German and American.

  27. Run by SiriOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Welcome to the Appleture Science Enrichment Center.

  28. Agile development is a nonlinear assembly line by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is Agile software development other than a 21st century, nonlinear assembly line with the project manager as a shop floor manager?

  29. Biased Guess Much? by whisper_jeff · · Score: 1

    Larry Sweet, the CTO of Symbotic, which makes autonomous mobile robots for use in warehouse distribution, described a possible scenario for Apple's U.S. factory.

    So a guy with no insider information, no possible record for having such information, and an obvious bias in support of his theory, suggests Apple may possibly use robots, similar to those made by this guy's company?

    Yeah - Apple might use a heavily automated manufacturing process. They might also use low-cost labour. They might do a lot of things. But basing entire Slashdot articles on obviously biased theories ... well, it's just par for the course around here of late...

  30. Automation and music. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Britney Spears is a robot?

    1. Re:Automation and music. by cynyr · · Score: 1

      yes see Auto-Tune

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
  31. Robots and Free Time by prefec2 · · Score: 1

    Of course it is possible to do the assembly with robots. Japanese manufacturers and Samsung already did it for smartphones. Foxconn is replacing people with special robots from ABB, which have two arms and stereo cameras. They can be used as drop-in replacement for humans. In the 2000s companies in Asia switched away from the totally automated factory, because of the cost of re-configuring robots for different product lines. However, progress has been made in the field of smart fabs. Therefore, the switch over time can be minimized and is already part of the product development process (as it is for human based processes as well). Therefore, it is completely possible to do the same, which is possible in the 2000s and today in China, also in the USA.

    However, it will not bring jobs back. We have to accept, that manufacturing jobs will be reduced by two effect in the future (ok the same shit happens since the 1970s): First, productivity rises due to better tools, manufacturing processes, and better training. This increases the potential output and as the productivity rise was always higher then the GDP and consumer base rise, the number of people necessary in production is reduced. Second, robots become better suited to do variable tasks. The smart fab is a concept, which is heavily researched and the results are implemented widely in the automobile, smartphone and other electronics industry, as all these industries use platforms, module concepts, and product line methods to reduce development time and allow the production to be adapted in short time to different products of the same kind. For example, car manufacturer are able to produce five different cars on the same product line. So the first car is produced for Jonny Sixpack, it is a yellow Passant, while the second car is a New Beetle in deep blue, for his neighbor. Both cars come with different engines and other stuff like air conditioning, media center etc. (I am absolutely sure that other manufacturers beside VW are also capable of doing that.) Therefore, the jobs are gone for good.

    The jobs are not coming back. We have to come up with a different way to distribute wealth in a society in which production is done by machinery. We could do a lot of things which are not destined to be super productive in terms of accuracy and outcomes. For instance, craftsmanship can be very rewarding for people, especially for those who have great potentials in that area. Also in caring for each other, there are a lot of jobs possible. The only problem is. How do we get the money circulating? When products can be produced cheaply, recycled and or disassembled quickly (with low energy consumption and without (much) waste). While craftsmen, may form dishes and furniture, that stuff normally stays in use for decades or centuries (not like that IKEA and Bob's furniture, which disassembles after some time). This results in you need one table in a lifetime. And as the number of people is stagnating (starting to be that way in 10-50 years, depending on the prognosis), the amount of replacement tables is very limited. The same applies for many other things.

    So in the end: How will we distribute wealth? And, what will we do with all the free time? After all we only can buy products when we have money. If nobody is working anymore (beside the 10% in product development, 10% administration, 3% farming) the people will not have money and therefore they are not able to buy the products. Therefore the products do not have to be produced, and therefore they have not to be developed. In short: No consumer base => no production => no jobs => no money => no wealth for factory owners => no wealth for people in finance.

    1. Re:Robots and Free Time by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Wrong question. The United States has already undergone several industrial revolutions of this sort. The two largest of these have been the loss of farm employment due to farm mechanization that happened the first half of the last century and the loss of manufacturing jobs that happened mostly in the second half of the last century, and continues today.

      To understand the scale of what happened consider productivity - in 1900 it took 8 farmers to supply 11 people with food. By 1980 one farmer was supplying 1000 people with food.

      In manufacturing the trend is the same. In 1950 some 40% of the US population had direct manufacturing jobs. Now the number is 8%.

      The gradual loss of those 8% is not going to be a particular problem to the US economy. Other areas that are growing provide ample potential to provide employment.

      The question is how to manage the transition of the individual workers to the newer modes of employment.

    2. Re:Robots and Free Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is, every transition required to raise the education levels. In future, we will only have jobs with social backgrouns, like nurses, teachers, social workers or maybe waste disposal experts, or jobs which require higher education, like product designers, engineers, politicians, lawyers etc.

      I doubt that you are able to educate todays lower and lower middle class in a way that they get in their majority a bachelor and master degree. There will be jobs for so called symbol analytics, but not for building products in factories. Also a lot of cleaning jobs will go away soon. And in transportation, a lot of people will loose their jobs (at least in Europe) when when all railway control centers become automated, local trains become computer controlled (like in Paris or nueremberg) etc.

      So what do we do with people who are not that intelligent? They still deserve to be or to feel usefull.

  32. Automation and "spare" parts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a myth that automation is bad because it leads to unemployment, but no-doubt that myth will be perpetuated here. Someone might even say "yeah it frees people up, frees them up to STARVE." Let's try to address that before it happens.

    As processes become more automated, the things we want become cheaper because the cost of labor is the dominant cost in almost every business. This means people have more spare money available, and it will be spent on things that before would have been considered too wasteful.

    Were does this "spare money" come from?

  33. Re : Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Great article Soulskill !

    Have a nice one http://youtu.be/ov8FeODxyXU

  34. The sole US worker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    will press the button that turns the factory on. He will then be fired.

  35. in other news by smash · · Score: 1

    ... robots just became cheaper than chinese labour.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  36. Dear Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..it is a problem of your mind. Too many of you think of manufacturing as "smelly, dull, low-paid". Workers are annoying problems.

    Now, what if

    A) your workers are actually professionals and have a three-year long education under their belt ?

    B) they are experts in their respective process (from programming tool machines to properly putting leather into an expensive car) ?

    C) they can rise into middle management from their technical expert position ?

    D) these people are seen as being the most valuable element of a manufacturing process ?

    E) your workers were proud to be "manufacturing workers" ?

    Then, dear Americans, dear Brits, you would probably have a world-beating manufacturing industry. But alas, you treat workers like retards who are only annoying. You train them for 30 minutes and then they have to operate a 2 million $ PCB manufacturing line. To hell with quality, we need to ship now. And in three weeks, lets fire the guy we just hired.
    You think of workers as enemies in a scheme to Get Rich Quick and that means you will never ever spend the money to train this worker to do proper machining, mechanical finish and so on. That's why Detroit Autos suck and why American and British manufacturing in general is in the crapper. Disrespect the workman and lose your industry !

  37. And Before You Crow "Automation" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GM already tried that with their "Saturn" works. The japanese took the opportunity to rip out GM's soul with well-trained and well-motivated humans and their 100 Billion neurons each. Each of their neurons was properly connected to 10000 other neurons while GM management tried to replace neural networks with stupid computers.

  38. your duty is clear: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to build and maintain those robots.

  39. haters by flipnode · · Score: 1

    Firstly, china having our technology and the manufacturing capability is just asking for trouble for the US. It's like asking Germany to manufacture our At

    1. Re:haters by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      "Our" technology? And which technology would that be? I mean, outside the marketing department. It's been a long time since America was a technology leader. You remember all those asian kids in your engineering classes? The ones that got straight A's and never went to parties? Exactly.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  40. In a related story... by craigminah · · Score: 1

    ...Apple's just announced their new SkyNet which is claimed to revolutionize how machines interact...

  41. Ahahahaha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And you morons thought Apple was going to create US jobs. Nah, the robots will run everything. German, Korean and Japanese made robots. But we'll always need some Americans to sweep the floor. Keep supporting Apple boys.

  42. Robot City by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Great article.

    Have a nice one all http://youtu.be/ov8FeODxyXU

  43. A Bright America by SleeknStealthy · · Score: 1

    This is the only way manufacturing should be done. Not only will many jobs be created, to program, design and assemble the robots, but all jobs will be well paid and exploitation free. We want this type of manufacturing to be done in the United States, it creates high quality jobs and supports the human rights standards that we as a nation believe in. I am no Apple fanboy, but this is also a huge win for their customers, because humans can not match the precision of robotic manufacturing. Good news for nerds.

    --
    Math
  44. Because they are. I guess you can call that brand by Brannon · · Score: 1

    management--but it is hardly marketing manipulation to inflate your brand by doing good things and then being honest about it.

  45. We will be like a virus to the robot. by Joah_from_Alberta · · Score: 0

    When cars are automated, and I don't just mean self-parking, our shipping industry will drive 24/7 with robots delivering our internet packages. We will be like UK punks socializing by the delivery routes which will be congested with robotic efficiency. Then like a story written by HG Wells, too late we will realize our folly in having created a gigantic planetary robot. I wonder then if we will be like the necessary bugs in our stomach to "it" or if we will be deemed a parasite that must be removed. (Un)lucky for us we have our Mother N, Using our knights and bishops we pave the way to our children fantasies, Cheers,

  46. This will still create lots of jobs in USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Robots reduce the number of low wage jobs but this move on Apple's part should still create thousands of high skill engineering and technician jobs in the USA. I work for Intel in Oregon where the majority of the manufacturing is done by robots but the manufacturing process is so complicated and new products are constantly being created that it still requires a huge number of highly skilled workers to oversee all the operations. It is naive to think that these factories full of robots will run themselves automagically without LOTS of oversight and constant improvements/tweaking of the manufacturing process.

  47. The slow death of manual labor by Shifuimam · · Score: 2

    One of the things that has drastically changed since the industrial revolution is the distribution of blue-collar vs. white-collar jobs. As others have pointed out, society's industrialization made the average desk job much more common, rather than reserved for the wealthy elite in business.

    As rote, tedious, manual work is automated, there will be even more of a need for positions requiring education. Rather than dropping out of high school in a podunk town in northern Indiana just to go work at an auto factory for the rest of your life, it will be much more valuable to go to college, get a real degree (that is, an education that promotes critical thinking, math and science, and the skills required in those who will design and support and troubleshoot all this new automation technology, not a liberal arts degree that succeeds in little more than teaching you how to be politically correct and "feel" more), and make yourself useful as the world around you continues to evolve.

    It is absolutely logical that businesses are going to move more and more toward automation. The cost of labor is high - not just the paychecks, but the benefits, the insurance, the constant evaluations by OSHA to ensure save work environments (not a bad thing, but even a small accidental slip-up can be costly to a large business), and unionization. Machines will never demand a raise, they'll never demand "collective bargaining rights", and they'll never insist on a pension plan. All these are pervasive in the world of manual labor employment - far more than what is commonly seen in white-collar desk jobs.

    I think that Tim Burton's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory makes a very good point - Charlie Bucket's father loses his job assembling tubes of toothpaste after his employer buys a robot to do the work. However, the company quickly realizes that they need people who can support and repair those robots, and they hire Mr. Bucket with a better job and better pay, doing something that a robot can't do.

    It's a myth that the plebes in society are incapable of getting an education and a real career. Start working on computers. Start working on cars. Learn a trade and become a plumber or an electrician. These jobs aren't going anywhere. We will always need people to fix our toilets and our laptops and our vehicles. We will see an increasing need for people who can engineer new technology, market it, and support it. These are the skills we should be encouraging the next generation of workers to focus on.

    --
    I'm a geek girl. Seriously.
  48. job based health Obamacare or not is the killer by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    job based health Obamacare or not is the killer.

    Now take Obamacare and cut out all the job / employee stuff. But at best it's bridge to a over all new plan that covers all and it payed for out of taxes.

    For years before Obamacare places have played games to get out of having to give workers health insurance and others have only offed joke care plans. I was on a interview for a IT job and they said there health insurance plan sucks and you can get a better one on your own.

  49. "proven" ... I call BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Based on 30 years of industrial Engineering experience: WITHOUT reading it, I call BS! TOTAL and COMPLETE [expletive deleted] put forth by a bunch of otherwise useless academic pukes who could not actually design, build, and distribute ANY physical product of any utility. See NUREG 0711.

    Myself, as a former and reformed NT network administrator, I "do" power plants and industrial equipment which do NOT use digital systems because digital systems break too often and can not be "fixed" at "dark-thirty" in the morning because the manuals for every digital system I have ever read SUCK, and the corporate "help" lines are USELESS to anybody responsible for field repairs. See also, the "smart grid", it is a farce!

  50. and more trades based education as well in the by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    and more trades based education as well in the automation field.

    Robots will need maintenance, repair, installing and uninstall.

    1. Re:and more trades based education as well in the by sjames · · Score: 1

      Robots will need maintenance, repair, installing and uninstall.

      And it will be done by robots./p>

  51. people in jail / lockup get more BASIC health care by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    people in jail / lockup get more then just BASIC health care

  52. Or we could, you know by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    start socializing these profits and productivity gains. I'm just saying... otoh if somebody's got a better idea (that doesn't involve 90% of us dying of starvation) I'm all ears....

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  53. There's another option by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    we just keep moving more and more of the wealth to the top, and let the rest of the world go to hell. If you're in the top 1% that's still 60 million people living like gods among men. The US middle class was really a fluke. First time in history. Before that a miniscule group of people took everything and the rest died of starvation and/or elements. I think the phrase is 'winner take all' economics...

    Anyway, I guess my point is, people keep asking what's gonna happen when nobody can afford to buy stuff, ignoring the fact that the folks that own everything don't really care, because, well, they already own it all.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  54. but not all jobs need 4+ years of college that is by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    but not all jobs need 4+ years of college that is what is missing we need more trades / apprenticeships.

    College is not to be used as a dumping ground for all and they trun out people with skills gaps but at the same time you have people who go to tech schools with the skills that get passed over as the tech schools are jammed into the college system and they have gaps in the well rounded college part.

    Now the tech schools should go full trades / apprenticeships and cut out all the other college stuff.

  55. Your PCs are the victims of bad caps by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    there was a huge run on them in the early 2ghz processor era, which is probably when most of your PCs were from. Go get yourself an 800mhz pentium and watch how long it lasts. I'm sitting here typing on a 3 ghz Athlon 64 that's well over 5 because I bought a board that fixes the bad caps problem.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  56. How else do you propose by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    to get money out of the hands of the top and into the bottom? The top right now are using their wealth and privilege to gut companies' pensions and equity. Hostess is the current example, but remember Sci-Fi monthly and quarterlies? Every wonder what happened to Asimov's monthly magazine? The suits will tell you Americans just got dumber and stopped reading. Fact is somebody noticed that the company that distributed those monthly reading periodicals was stilling on a tonne of real estate that had appreciated in value over the years. They got bought up and liquidated for the short term profits. Every mag instantly lost their distribution network, and those guys run pay check to paycheck (real Americans there), so they went under.

    How are you planning on dealing with those guys? The Bain capitals of the world? They completely break Capitalism, unless you're OK with the 'winner-take-all' approach.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:How else do you propose by stenvar · · Score: 1

      The top right now are using their wealth and privilege to gut companies' pensions and equity.

      The fault isn't with "the top", the fault is with the US government, which allows these companies to get out of their obligations in bankruptcy and then let the tax payer deal with the fallout. But the original sin there was to create pensions (and health care) tied to companies in the first place, instead of making sure everybody paid into their own retirement plan. Corporations lobbied for that and Democrats are just as responsible for going down that road as Republicans.

      You're not going to fix that with more regulation or more taxes. The solution is to phase out any tax and legal advantages for employer-provided pension and health care plans and have everybody buy their own plans independent of employers (with social security and public health care as a fallback).

  57. RISE OF THE MACHINES by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    People not required ;)

  58. they can commit death by overheating / overstress by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    they can commit death by overheating / over stressing parts

  59. Re:people in jail / lockup get more BASIC health c by HiThere · · Score: 1

    Perhaps some do. It's also true that many such people get the kind of health care that kills them. E.g., diabetics denied insulin. (It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens, and there aren't repercussions. After all, it's hard to *prove* malice, when all the witnesses can't or won't testify. And people in jail rarely have external support that can and will afford lawyers...and THOSE people don't get the same treatment.)

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  60. Luddite fallacy by Kwyj1b0 · · Score: 1

    I see a lot of variations of this answer to people who fear technology change:

    People will just move into areas that require labor, like building and maintaining automation.

    This type of statement always reminds me of this poster:
    The bad news is robots can do your job now.
    The good news is we're now hiring robot repair technicians.
    The worse news is we're working on robot-fixing robots- and we do not anticipate any further good news.

    I kid, and I understand that people will move towards areas with more employment opportunity. However, in the short term there is going to be a lot of pain. This is also tied to the Luddite fallacy:

    But as long as real prices fall or real incomes rise, the additional purchasing power gives consumers the ability to purchase entirely new products and services, such as better health care and wireless communication devices and services. This has many leading economists believing that technological change, although it disrupts the careers of individuals and the health of particular firms, cannot lead to systemic unemployment

    The problem I see is that real income for most of the population has not risen (AFAIK).

  61. I see another option - all us becoming pets by AndreyFilippov · · Score: 1

    As Big money+robots combination is more efficient in more and more jobs, the communist-socialist outcome is not imminent. I see new emerging way of living - we'll all become pets of few rich ones, who'll be able to mine on asteroids without any need for us.

    You know - Bill Gates is supporting Africans in Africa, financing their cure from AIDS and probably more. And it is not because they are just all lazy and do not want to work - but they are already not needed in the world economy. So when robots will take all our jobs - and I mean "all", we can not hide behind our high education, PhD - it is just a matter of time - when robots will get our creative jobs too. So, like a nice guy - Bill Gates, the owners of the New Virtual World will just feed us and give some money to live and buy their Internet-advertised goods.

    But we will not have any rights, We will b e just pets.

    1. Re:I see another option - all us becoming pets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once the real estate market bounces, we will be furniture like in Soylent Green.

    2. Re:I see another option - all us becoming pets by pweidema · · Score: 1

      Actually, not a bad idea. Most of the people I know who have pets seem to have no problem providing them with organic food, expensive care (I think vets are often better doctors than some of the medical doctors I have dealt with recently). Meanwhile we can't seem to feed and educate many of the children in our society.

    3. Re:I see another option - all us becoming pets by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I know somebody who has at various points in time owned two businesses. One was a daycare, and the other was a service that cared for pets while their owners were away.

      Her observation was that people care WAY more about their pets than their kids. Granted, some of it might be that the one service was more of a commodity in our society, and the other was more of a luxury. A better comparison might be between a pet care system and a nanny service. However, I suspect that the results wouldn't be much different.

      Pets are less demanding all-around, and if you don't want one you can just turn it in. Pets have evolved accordingly - those who are less cute/cuddly don't get as much opportunity to eat/breed. Humans rarely base mating decisions on how well their selected mate treated their parents.

  62. Automation and Socialism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  63. In that case, let's outlaw lawnmowers. by Brannon · · Score: 1

    Everyone will be forced to cut their grass using scissors--that will create lots more jobs, right?

    Put another way, you're an idiot. Automation is a good thing.

  64. What Will This Do For Apple Down the Road? by trinaranda · · Score: 1

    Stock prices have plummeted, sales have also taken a dip... will this bring good fortune to Apple someday? Let's see...

    --
    I sell house and lot
  65. On the other hand by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    The GOP and Silicon Valley want ever more H1B visas for STEM graduates, spewing a list of horseshit reasons, but never the real reason: high tech skilled, compliant immigrants from cultures with near zero workers' rights that are more than willing to work for pennies on the dollar (unlike those lazy USians).

    1. Re:On the other hand by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I have to disagree. I work with some H1B folks, and they are some of the best people to work with. I think tossing out the world's best and brightest after educating them is bad for the country, even if it might help raise my salary a little in the short term.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:On the other hand by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 1

      The GOP and Silicon Valley want ever more H1B visas for STEM graduates, spewing a list of horseshit reasons, but never the real reason: high tech skilled, compliant immigrants from cultures with near zero workers' rights that are more than willing to work for pennies on the dollar (unlike those lazy USians).

      This has not been my experience as a hiring manager. Hire the best people. Their visa status is a check mark that does not influence compensation. H1B folks pay tons in taxes and they are deeply devoted to raising well educated children. We need to let in as many as will come.

  66. Why is hardware different than software? by LaggedOnUser · · Score: 1

    We already have completely automated production of software in the IT industry, i.e., we effortlessly create millions of copies of our product with the push of a button and no manual labor required. And yet there is still full employment of computer programmers, in design rather than in production. Why should the hardware industry be any different? Isn't hardware design an endlessly difficult and varied problem, just like software?

  67. i can build better Re:Automation and unemployment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Robots building and designing the robots is inevitable. I think the only question is whether they all work for 10 super-rich guys at the top, or if perhaps those who weren't born into the robot-owning families actually can live off of something more than scraps.

    lol NO!

    If your robot can build a nice robot, I can build a better robot-builder myself and my robot's spawn will kick A$$ on yours and I and my robots will be rich until
    someone else builds a better builder than mine...

    and so "progress"...

    so study robot design, kiddies!

    Oh, and robots get into trouble -- that require a human overseer, so there will be a need for robot repair people too and then there is... lol

  68. robot "persons" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At some point a robot that can: perform tasks, reproduce, ... pass a citizenship test, .. will have to be treated as a person.
    And then we can tax the $HI1 out of it.

  69. Re:the health system in the usa has been broke for by Duhavid · · Score: 1

    Having your plan disconnected from work is excellent, but owning your own has some issues...
    Try bargaining for better rates with a large company, especially on something that is hard to move to another company, and is that important to you....
    And what happens if you lose your job for an extended period of time and cant pay your premiums....

    Sucky as it is, I think the real answer is single payer.

    --
    emt 377 emt 4
  70. So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

    Word to the wise: If you don't want a socialist revolution here in the U.S. make damned sure not to put people's backs against the wall.

    Capitalism runs unchecked, people at the bottom get desperate, have a socialist revolution, take everything by force from the rich. The resulting socialist economy eventually bankrupts the nation and results in severe human rights abuses, causing a revolution where it is replaced with a democratic capitalist system.

    Wash, rinse, repeat.

    The big difference between socialism and capitalism is who is on top. Those with money are on top in capitalism, those with political connections are on top in socialism. Somebody will be running things, and many of them will abuse their positions. It's human nature.

    1. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      The U.S. (and a number of other countries) managed to escape it the first time around by making significant concessions to the left. Unfortunately in the U.S., the right has been clawing it back ever since. This has again lead to unrest and suffering, and so we again approach an inflection point where we can either make significant concessions or have a full blown socialist revolution.

    2. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      Let me modify what I wrote. It's not only capitalism unchecked. Many of our problems are due to us not having a real capitalist system. The government picks winners and losers, suppresses the free market by playing favorites and interfering in the markets to the extent that the capitalist system doesn't work properly anymore. You end up with a situation where a business doesn't necessarily have to succeed on its merits in the marketplace, but can leverage the power of government to succeed. This is the worst of socialism and capitalism combined -- the greed of individuals with the power of government.

      I do believe in regulation to make sure people aren't ripped off, or to prevent too much instability in markets, or to prevent distortions of the free market (monopolies). But you end up where we are by making too many concessions to the left.

    3. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      In that case, I'll see you after the revolution comrade.

      As this very thread has shown, the free market CAN-NOT provide for the population in an era of increasing mechanization without making concessions. It failed miserably (and with misery for almost all) the last time it was tried and it will fail again. Constant supply coupled with falling demand leads to lower prices. In the case of labor (where everyone MUST have an income) it means falling wages and increasing desperation.

      Your choice is clear. Make some concessions and have some of what you want or refuse and watch a violent socialist revolution sweep your principles into the sea.

      Personally, I'm pulling for the former. Most countries that have tried that one are doing OK. If it makes you feel better about it, consider it a correction for employees being ripped off and instability in employment.

    4. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      It failed miserably (and with misery for almost all) the last time it was tried and it will fail again.

      The free market has not failed, because the free market reflects human nature, people freely associating and interacting in order to better their lives. Note that unions can be part of a free market, the workers freely associating with each other to better their position.

      People aren't ants, so socialism has failed again and again.

    5. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      You're not making sense, human nature is not some sort of divine perfection, so it can indeed fail. It is our lot in life to filter and constrain the aspects of our own nature in search of the best outcome. To claim something can't fail because it reflects that is nonsensical.

      By your argument, socialism can't fail because it is human nature for the working class to have a socialist revolution when the free market capitalism fails to bring them a reasonable measure of prosperity.

      Meanwhile, don't confuse things like market socialism with Soviet style communism, they're quite different. Markets make an excellent tool in many situations, but clearly do not work in every circumstance. Unfortunately, too many adviocates of a market economy remind me of the old adage "To a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail".

      Meanwhile, it doesn'ty matter in the slightest if you or I like or don't like Socialism. If you want to avoid a socialist revolution, make sure the working class earns a good living. Otherwise, for better or worse (and I suspect worse), there WILL be a revolution. That too is human nature.

    6. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      You're not making sense, human nature is not some sort of divine perfection, so it can indeed fail.

      Capitalism is human nature. "Failure" would be failure to achieve something not in human nature, such as some utopian society. Capitalism is also freedom, but that comes with the freedom to fail that scares those who prefer a semi-slavery with its safety. Laziness is also part of human nature, so the desire to take by force from those who have succeeded is also understandable. Thus your revolution.

    7. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Murder is also within human nature, but we as a society (and most individuals) find that it is something to be avoided. Do you consider it semi-slavery that you don't get to go out and do some recreational throat cutting on a Friday night?

    8. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      Murder is also within human nature, but we as a society (and most individuals) find that it is something to be avoided.

      Murder is infringing on the freedom of another. Capitalism arises from freedom of association. I make great shoes that you want, you have money I want to have so I can buy more leather from a guy who has some to sell. I have too much demand to handle, I pay some people to build a larger shop and pay some other people to help with making the shoes. I have even more demand, I get people to invest so I can expand further with more production facilities and pay people to make even more shoes. Those people get a return on their investment, or a loss if I fail, and are free to sell their investment to others.

      None of us is forced to make these deals, none of us is prohibited. Freedom.

      Now of course no freedom is absolute. Society does place certain limits, just as making a threat is not considered an allowable free exercise of speech and shooting the store clerk is not considered an allowable bearing of arms.

    9. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Ultimately, by creating an underclass, unbridled Capitalism infringes on others as well. That is a natural result of outlawing the projection of physical force without restricting the projection of economic force.

      Again, none of that matters against the very basic fact of human nature, if you back someone into a corner they will likely fight you to the death.

    10. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      Ultimately, by creating an underclass

      You mean an underclass that naturally results from the free interaction of people, the achievement of some and not others, or the larger underclass that results from socialism because the whole economy has been suppressed, the only achievement that really means anything being political?

      unbridled Capitalism infringes on others as well

      In a free market, everybody has opportunity. Nobody is prevented by those that have from becoming successful. No infringement, no force. Now distortions of the free market, often aided by government interference, do prevent many from becoming successful, but that's an argument for a free market, not against it.

      if you back someone into a corner they will likely fight you to the death.

      Like those who have achieved when faced with the majority trying to take everything from them.

      We apparently have different viewpoints. I value freedom and opportunity. What do you value?

    11. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Funny, I value the same things, I just understand that it is through a show of maturity and restraint as a species that we can all have more opportunities and greater freedom (just not the freedom to piss on our neighbor's head).

      I also look at the 'free markets' and realize that it's the true Scotsman fallacy everywhere. Apparently, all of our 'free markets' that show signs of failure or under-performance are not truly free markets (even in Somalia where there is no government to distort anything).

      Frankly, your ideal society sounds like a hellhole to me and if you try to force it on me (thus backing me into a corner) I will fight you to the death. Where's your value of freedom now?

    12. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      I just understand that it is through a show of maturity and restraint as a species that we can all have more opportunities and greater freedom (just not the freedom to piss on our neighbor's head).

      I think we have different ideas of freedom. I'm thinking more libertarian, freedom from restraint, no shackles, things not taken from you by force or the threat of it. Free to succed, free to fail. To me, freedom does not mean freedom from want, because to cure that want on the part of one person, the government must take by force from another, violating his freedom. You try to solve an evil by creating an evil.

      Apparently, all of our 'free markets' that show signs of failure or under-performance are not truly free markets

      As I said, the problems mainly stem from a distortion of the free market, often caused by government. The funny thing is, you must have a strong government to ensure a free market. Somalia does not have a free market. There's no guarantee that when you work hard to create a business and amass capital it won't just be taken away on the whim of a warlord. Or course, you're thinking about it being taken away on the whim of the "underclass." They're the same thing, a thuggish mentality with no respect for others. I will take it from you because I can, and kill you if necessary in order to get what I want.

      Frankly, your ideal society sounds like a hellhole to me and if you try to force it on me (thus backing me into a corner) I will fight you to the death.

      That's the society that we had, and it's been eroded by people like you for decades, trying to drown us in a socialist hellhole.

    13. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      So, Somallia doesn't have a free market because there's no government (just people doing what people do) and the U.S. doesn't have a free market because there is a government that doesn't pretend it doesn't exist when it comes to the market. It sounds like there are no Scotsmen^w free markets to be had. Meanwhile, since I would regulate the employment market, I am against all that is good and free because all regulation uis bad except when I show you no regulation and it's a hellhole.

      Let me know when you find that unicorn ranch!

      I notice you dropped the part of my quote where I ask how much you can REALLY support freedom if you are prepared to force your idea of a proper society upon me. In fact, you are only in favor of your own freedom and to hell with everyone else.

      So I'll close this thread with a repeat of my words to the wise: If you don't want a socialist revolution right here in the U.S. make sure not to put people's backs up against the wall.

    14. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      If you don't want a socialist revolution right here in the U.S. make sure not to put people's backs up against the wall.

      I have plenty of guns and ammunition, a right missing from most socialist countries.

    15. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      So in other words, you intend to put people's backs against the wall and then use physical violence to enforce your position. That's an 'interesting' definition of respecting the rights of others.

    16. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      Very socialist-speak of you. Freedom is slavery, slavery is freedom. Defending yourself and yours from violent socialist revolutionaries is considered a violation of their rights.

    17. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      So you believe it is important to have the freedom tio put someone's back against the wall and to shoot them if they respond naturally? And you accuse ME of doubletalk.

      .

    18. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      I'm not putting anyone's back against a wall. I'm just working to provide for my family. And if I'm a success, then I'm a success. If not, then not. Same for them. Too bad, that's how freedom works. You can't have freedom to succeed without the freedom to fail, because to prevent failure from happening you must hinder or destroy the freedom to succeed (depending on the level to which you prevent failure). And I'm not an extremist on this. I do consider some amount of subsistence level safety net to be necessary and realize it will place a slight hindrance on the freedom to succeed. Absolutism in anything usually is not a good thing.

      But either way, if some socialist "revolutionary" comes after me, my family or my stuff, he's going to die as the common low-life criminal he is, regardless of the "revolutionary" label you put on him. And it will be wholly his fault for initiating violence against another person.

    19. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      You must be planning to put people's backs against the wall. I commented that you shouldn't do that or there will be a revolution and you replied that you had plenty of ammo. What other reasonable conclusion was there for me to draw? The only other I saw was that you're a punk kid who needed to puff his chest out a bit with the old internet tough guy routine, but I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt.

      You might also have mis-construed socialism and that bizarre crap from the former soviet union.

    20. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      What other reasonable conclusion was there for me to draw?

      That many would see your socialist revolution as an end to freedom and react accordingly. You try to murder the rich guy down the street, I'll fight against you too. Socialist revolutions have always resulted in severe violations of human rights.

      You might also have mis-construed socialism and that bizarre crap from the former soviet union.

      You mean the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? I feel I'm going to hear another instance of "Socialism has always miserably failed, destroyed economies, destroyed civil rights, but I promise we're going to do it right THIS time."

    21. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Amusingly, I personally am not a Socialist (though I do lean left) and certainly not a Communist. We have a bit of socialism in the U.S. ever since FDR. The U.K. and Canada have a bit more. Finland a bit more still. They're already doing it right.

      My personal favorite -ism or yours doesn't much matter, the fact remains that if people have their backs to the wall economically, they tend to turn to socialism. If you or I would like to not see it go too far like it did in the USSR, we shouldn't put people's backs to the wall.

    22. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      the fact remains that if people have their backs to the wall economically, they tend to turn to socialism

      It's sad that people are so short-sighted, the whole doomed to repeat history thing. Every socialist revolution has turned into an economic and human rights disaster, were people's backs are literally put against the wall.

      I disagree with your whole "backs against the wall" premise. In a free society, everybody is free to try to succeed. People with their "backs against the wall" are people who didn't succeed. Rational people will admit they had a major responsibility in their own lack of success. The lazy, ignorant, irrational or power-hungry will blame it on others, claim someone forced their backs against the wall, and start a socialist revolution.

    23. Re:So we have a pattern? by sjames · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter how short sighted they are, it still happens. It's also sad that others are too short sighted to see THAT fact (hint hint)

      Of course, it was that same turn to socialism that got us the 8 hour day and the 5 day work week, an end to child labor, workplace safety, and any number of other things we take for granted today. Perhaps they weren't as short sighted as you think. In Russia where there was no willingness to compromise, the workers completed the revolution with disaster for all. That says a lot in favor of coming to a compromise with people who are against the wall.

      It doesn't matter if you had a chance to succeed or not. If for whatever reason you failed instead, you still need food, clothing, and shelter for yourself and your family. Human nature says "kill if you have to". Note that even if you are quite smart and do everything right, success is far from assured.

      The economy needs to serve everyone, not just the ones who get lucky or the ones that don't get too unlucky or the ones who are good at business. EVERYONE. That doesn't mean there isn't room for choice, or room for success. A strong safety net (above mere subsistence) would likely increase both choice and success.

    24. Re:So we have a pattern? by Quila · · Score: 1

      Of course, it was that same turn to socialism that got us the 8 hour day and the 5 day work week, an end to child labor, workplace safety, and any number of other things we take for granted today.

      That would be freedom of association in a free market. Unions, that is workers organizing to enhance their bargaining position in a free market, can be a healthy part of a free market. Of course socialists and organized crime have other purposes for the unions, none good.

      A strong safety net (above mere subsistence)

      Why above subsistence? If you are contributing nothing to society, then why should society support you in a comfortable lifestyle? That's basically pointing a gun at your neighbor, telling him to give you his shiny new boat because you want one, but don't feel like working for one. Only you would have the government point the gun for you and call it fairness.

  71. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Soon no one will either be able to earn enough money to buy these products, or even if they end up with 5 part tome jobs and have the requisite cash, they'll be so knackered, they won't have the energy to turn one on, let alone look at the wretched thing.

  72. Automation does not automatically = Unemployment by jishak · · Score: 1

    There is a lot of rhetoric on this thread about the impending doom of humanity as everything becomes automated. I think generally anytime you have a paradigm or technology shift people speak about the end of the earth or that we will all be replaced by robots. I don't think that automation of society is a bad idea. I do not believe that switching to manufacturing by robots will necessarily equal long term problems for humanity. I think the net effect is that people will move to fields that can not be automated or if the are automated they will come at great expense of time, resources, or other forms of effort.

    For example, psychological counseling is traditionally done person to person. I don't know that someone who is struggling with an issue will choose to talk to an inanimate object over a live human being that can express empathy or even share in the life experience a patient is struggling with. I don't know many children that will want to stop playing with other human beings because a robot will be more entertaining. I think the jobs will shift to new fields such as Entertainment and the Arts, Athletics, Social Applications, Creative Pursuits - to be honest I think work will end up feeling a lot less like work.

    I think as more of the mundane jobs are pushed off onto robots people and the money that they are involved with will shift to other sections of our economy. If an owner automates all production and no longer employs human beings - he too loses. Henry Ford new this principle all too well and chose to lower the costs of his cars through economies of scale so that he could increase his customer base. I think with Apple, eventually, Cook et al will fully understand this and reembrace humans in other portions of their business.

  73. Re:i can build better Re:Automation and unemployme by Rich0 · · Score: 1

    You're assuming that you're smarter than my robot builder. What if my robot builder has an IQ of 600, and it designs one with an IQ of 600k and so on?

    I have a feeling that AI on the level of humans isn't that far off, and once somebody can figure out how to achieve human-level AI it is just a mater of time before superhuman AI comes along. Pretty quickly the AI machines will be building smarter machines whose intelligence only an AI could comprehend. So, assuming the AIs are still subjugated we need to figure out how to get them to work for all of us, unless we just want whoever invents the AI to just treat the rest of us as pets...

  74. Digging Holes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We are still going to need cheap, plentiful energy to power all of this automation, or am I missing something? May I suggest clean, American, natural gas? With all those high paying energy jobs in the energy sector, there would be plenty of money to buy iPad 7's, iPhone 8's, iPod 9's and iCar 10's.