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Give Us Your Personal Data Or Pay Full Fare
ebh writes "Noted in an AP story about how fees make it difficult to compare air travel costs, is how the airline industry is moving toward tailoring offer packages (and presumably, fares) for individuals based on their personal information. Worse, 'The airline association said consumers who choose not to supply personal information would still be able to see fares and purchase tickets, though consumer advocates said those fares would probably be at the "rack rate" — the travel industry's term for full price, before any discounts.'"
We've established the nature of the relationship, we're now just haggling over the cost...
Or, principles are expensive...
How many data mining tokens er loyalty cards are in your wallet?
In Australia this has been mostly fixed legislatively under the 'component pricing' laws.
Amazon do personal pricing. They won't give you a price for some things unless you login. Then they give you a price that is the maximum they think you will pay. Other people see lower prices.
The aim of personal pricing is to milk you for more money to maximize profit, not for some kind of altruism. It's all about 'how much can this customer pay right now for that item'.
Now when companies get together to implement this, this is known as a price fixing cartel. It DOES NOT require them to have a fixed price, the mere act of agreeing to deceive customers on the price, is enough to be a crime under cartel acts. So if they're doing this because they've agreed to, then you look at price fixing cartel laws to see how to fix it.
But make no mistake, when they won't tell you the price for something, its not for your benefit.
Reading the article, the companies are unhappy with the Transportation Department rule that requires them to include all taxes in their advertised rates because that rule "violate their free-speech rights".
The "free speech" card is so abused nowadays that it will soon lose any meaning.
Airlines also have been cracking down on websites that help travelers manage their frequent flier accounts. The sites use travelers' frequent flier passwords to obtain balances and mileage expiration dates, and then display the information in a way that makes it easier for travelers to figure out when it makes more sense to buy a ticket or to use miles.
There is not even a quote from airlines about "making it safer for passengers" or "providing the best service". I guess there is simply no way to spin this as a good thing for customers. A rare event indeed.
I first noticed when I did a search for a media player, I clicked through and it refused to give me a price unless I logged in. I click the 'why we ask you to login' link and it made some kind of BS claim about customer service. I got my price.
Then I then logged out, tried to create a new account, and tried again and got that *same* price (same IP, I think they're smarter about covering their tracks), so I then used a works proxy with a different IP address, and created a new account and was offered a cheaper price.
They're still up to their old games, just better at hiding them.
That was only a few months ago.
I have never had an issue using fake information on those shopping member cards. I imagine trying to use fake info for air travel would be frowned upon.
Hehe, I hope you NEVER used a credit card to purchase with your "fake" shopping member card. Because once you do, the fake member card is tied to your real and verifiable info forever.
Airlines would also have your true information because you cannot even buy your plane ticket with cash (well, maybe you can - but I wouldn't recommend it nowdays). At least groceries can still be had for cash...
Once they see the contents of your wallet... they can adjust the prices they offer to you to maximize their intake of your cash and minimize those aforementioned contents of your wallet. That's the real key to profitability with personal pricing: find out how MUCH they are willing to pay for what they want. So it's only to their benefit to know how much money you're playing with (how good your credit is, how many other expensive things you've bought before, whether you're a customer they'd like to take on or someone they want to go away).
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There is NO benefit for customers from this at all that I can see.
Well of course having detected I was being ripped off I stopped using Amazon. Most people won't be able to see alternate prices for an item, so they'll never know the reason they were required to log-in was to be offered an inflated price compared to others.
I think the same is true of this airline scam. HOWEVER, the main difference here, is the airlines via it's association are showing clear signs of cooperation on this, which is a strong indicator of cartel activity.
It's not like one of them has just decided to go alone on this, it's that their airline association is declaring this.
That has CARTEL written all over it.
There is still Southampton to New York cruises available, it's a 1 week crossing, but obviously they are aimed at tourists rather than business travel so the ships are stacked to to brim with entertainment type stuff, and old people taking a retirement cruise.
These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
What the summary talks about is something that could happen based on ideas from the trade industry that covers travel agency.
Now the reason travel agencies are upset is because airlines are switching to a system where if you order your ticket from the airline web site you can purchase extra deals which are not available if you purchase some site like expedia or travelocity.
For example one airline just switched to a system where for $68 you get a luggage check on, and you can change your date and time for no additional cost. If you purchased it through the travel agency site you just have the option to pay $50 for the check luggage and if you want to change date or time it costs $150. All prices USD.
So in a way they are correct if people switch to using the airline web site to order tickets they will get to know your age, sex, address, email and travel history but the travel agencies are already collecting this.
Airlines are (and have been, and will continue to be) giving preferential treatment to their better customers. How this is even news, I don't know - frequent flyer programs have been around for what, thirty years now? And you don't have to fly to see all the advertising about how getting the airline's affinity credit card saves you from paying for that first checked bag every time you fly with them, and so on, and so forth. Flying 25,000 miles a year with them gets you that too, plus bonus miles, plus free upgrades when available, and the perks only go up from there.
Earlier this millennium, I spent a few years as a top-tier frequent flyer on an airline that has since merged into one of the remaining behemoths. I was in my 30's at the time, and had some "work" that involved a lot of international flights. (Thanks for paying your taxes, if you live in any of the twenty-odd countries whose governments were funding it.) It was even worthwhile for me to buy a membership in their lounges. Their back-end system had a formula for determining "high-value customers," and based partly on how many years I was expected to be their customer before retiring, it decided they were going to make some bucks off me, even though I always flew on the cheapest available fares.
The airline that borged them didn't have this generous of a nature, but said "wow, look at this great data-mining system!" and adopted it, not fully understanding what they were getting. A year or so after the merger, I used some miles for a free, non-upgradable ticket to meet up with my fiancée in Paris for a weekend. I got to the hub airport for the trans-Atlantic flight to Paris, the gate agent paged me, looked me up and down (yeah, t-shirt and sandals), asked if I was in fact me, looked more than a little distressed, then dragged me off to the side away from the counter and said in hushed tones, "We're not allowed to do this - but the computer says to upgrade you!"
As far as I know, this airline's computer still thinks I am a god among men, and unless they deliberately go in and tweak the algorithms, it may think that forever. I'm... okay with this. :)
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
I travel light. I don't have the time to wait for luggage once I get to my destination, and don't care much for not having my luggage out of sight, getting lost, etc. If you're going to make this rule, make stricter rules about the amount you can carry on board. I'm fine with a single cabin class bag + my laptop.
They just keep piling it on, adding reasons not to have anything to do with air travel.
Having to pay big $$$ for parking at a lot that is still a 10 minute bus ride from the terminal
Having to wait maybe 15 minutes for that bus
Having to wait maybe 15 minutes for that bus at 24 degrees or 105 degrees
Overpriced food at terminals
TSA stealing stuff from your luggage
TSA thinking they have the right to lay hands on you
TSA thinking they have the right to x-ray you (only my Dr. and dentist...)
Late planes
Late planes when you have to catch a connection
1/2 hr sprints thru big airports 'cuz your plane was late for the connection
Lost luggage
45 minutes to retrieve luggage after plane lands
Arriving 2 hrs early 'cuz of TSA
Narrow airplane seats
Fees for blankets
Fees for pillows
Fees for food
Fees for checked baggage
Fees for carry on baggage
Having to rent a car when you get there
Paying for wi-fi in the airport
Have given up flying for anyplace I can get to with my car. About the only good thing left about flying and airports is Cinnabon.
So I am a 7'2" 120 pound jewish black man with a medical condition that makes me look like I am a short fat balding white guy that eats bacon.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The rich can ride in private jets, while the poor (if they can afford to fly at all) have to put up with flying coach and submitting to invasive security theater and now to having to give up personal information because they can't afford the rates charged for not revealing that information (rates which the rich can easily afford).
You know, there's a huge business opportunity here for someone with some resources and the balls to upset the airline industry and the government.
How about a website that acts sort of like a travel/booking site and an auction site, sort of like a cross between Amazon, Orbitz, and Ebay, only the "goods" up for auction will be air-charter services. Get these small and medium charter services competing for bookings. The more that bid on a flight, the lower the price, as a charter service can charge less per passenger if they can be reasonably sure of packed flights. The more that use the service, the lower the prices for everyone.
Once businesses start using it, the game would be all but over except for the death-spasms for the current airline industry (and the TSA...hard to justify spending billions for agents to sit cooling their heels in increasingly-empty commercial terminals).
Eventually, unless government stepped in to prevent individuals from organizing together to book private flights (which would be a bugger in the details to try to prevent), the charter services would grow until they replaced the old airlines.
If the airlines and government can't or won't make air travel reasonable in price, service quality, or "junk-groping", then treat the airlines and government like censorship on the 'net, and route around the greedy, pompous, megalomaniacal, corrupt bastards.
If they won't fix the air travel industry, build a new air travel industry the way that people on the 'net are funding and creating all sorts of other things from open source software projects.to business startups.
Although it's likely the government would step in to somehow halt any such movement towards grass-roots air travel, maybe forcing it to have to do so would at least bring the topic "above the fold", to use an old newspaper term, and the popular public pressure generated would have some mitigating effect on the horrible state of commercial air travel in the US.
Or, everybody can bitch and moan on internet forums and blogs and do the same things they've been doing, and fighting the fight on their terms. That's worked well so far.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
What the value of everyone knowing what you buy actually is. If the supermarket and the airline and everyone else knows I own a dog and drive an old Camry I'm not sure what anyone thinks the spam/value-add of all of that is. As it is, most people already throw away most junk mail and junk email unopened. And since the airlines themselves never actually give discounts, just complex fee-add schemes, it's not as if they're going to successfully market to people based on that. It's not as if they're going to take an 'extra' trip to Florida this year because your quadruple platinum diamond intergalactic admiral club membership is going to waive that $25 checked bag fee. I just don't see it. I think the airlines were sold a bill of goods by marketing consultants and now they're going to create complex expensive systems that, as always, don't do anything to keep them out of bankruptcy like they do every 3 or 4 years.
I don't know why people are modding you down because you are right. All through the 80s and 90s when I flew, your carryon was limited to very specific size measurements. I had a rucksack that I could take when I flew to The Netherlands, but, every single time, upon return, KLM's carryon sizes were smaller. Occasionally, if the flight was not full, they'd let me take it on, but most of the time it had to be checked.
The last time I flew (Denver to New York) the carryon luggage was the size of regular luggage and I saw people literally punching the bags to fit into the overhead bin. I had a backpack and my netbook, both of which fit right under the seat in front of me. Somewhere along the lines, they just started letting people take whatever they wanted into the cabin and now they're forced to deal with it because it's become a huge issue.
Like you, I don't like my stuff out of my sight. I pack extremely light because of this. A good rule of thumb for people taking on carryon luggage, if you cannot personally lift it over your head, by yourself, then it's too damned big and should be checked.
What, you'd dare to go against giant corporations and the government? Are you a progressive? A c-c-c-communist!?
No, I'm a capitalist. What we have now is not capitalism. It's what's been called "crony-Capitalism", otherwise known as soft Fascism. The Progressives and communists are the ones in power in Washington, D.C. currently, and largely have been to a grater or lesser extent for decades and in both major political parties and the labor unions.
As to whether or not I'd "dare", the point is moot, as I don't have the resources to even dream of attempting something like that.
Unless, of course, you're actually Bill Gates and want to fund such a project. (Hey Bill, it *would* be a nice "in your face!" payback for all that "monopoly" stuff the government threw at you! Just sayin'. :-) )
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Stay home. No, seriously. Stay home. Think about it: no TSA, no lines, no having a fat person sitting in half of your lap the whole trip, no screaming kids, no rude flight attendents, no loss of personal information along with all your clothes, and best of all no giving 1/2 a months pay to fly somewhere where I'll spend at least just as much while I'm there. If I staycation for the next 10 years I can retire 2 years earlier. Why would I want to travel? Let some other stupid schmuck see the world. That's what I've got Internet for.
There are other solutions to beating the airline industry too, if only more companies were progressive enough to take them on. For example, http://allaboardflorida.com/
Yes, they're aiming directly at the short haul airlines. And it's not hard to see how if the FEC can turn a profit with this, other railways will see an opportunity they've been missing for nearly half a century. And if you're about to ask "What's changed that'd make it profitable now", the fact is "it" hasn't been tried before. What's been tried before is trying to produce a full service, stops every five miles, rail system that the government actively competed with. If all you're doing, like AAF/FEC, is running trains between large cities - as airlines do planes - then you stand a much better chance of pulling this off and making a mint in the process.
The biggest issue is convincing the rail companies to dip their toes in the water again. Reportedly at least one Class A is thinking in terms of running a non-Amtrak service. If the FEC can make a success of it, I suspect most of the major rail companies will jump in.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
This isn't about personal data concerning your bank balance or your religion - It's about saving your personal preferences so the systems can tailor a ticket price for you. For example, I'm a frequent business traveller with Elite status. My profile -
...this is about allowing me to create that profile so when I ask for a ticket price these details are taken into account and there are no 'suprises' in the price.
- I'm Canadian
- Try to fly carriers in the Star Alliance
- Flew 65K miles last year
- Rarely cross an ocean
- Star Alliance Gold passenger
- Prefer one-stop (or less routings)
- Credit point to Air Canada Aeroplan
- Always fly economy
- Sometimes purchase upgrade to Economy Plus on United
- Rarely check bags
- Always sit at the window
- Like to sit forward of the wing
- Usually fly out of YVR, sometimes tempted by BLI
- Don't like transiting YYZ
I'm not saying use the number on the form, I'm saying use the number at the register, don't even bother to fill out a form. Someone already did.
You get the discount and a fake account gets the credit.
I had stopped shopping at our local chain for a while and when I moved and lived next to one I'm back. My old phone number is now registered to someone else but its still active. So they can get the extra points for my purchases, I get the discount prices and the chain gets data that is skewed. I call that a win-win.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
This is why everybody I know wears a very big coat with surprisingly large pockets when flying with Ryanair.
I carry a tablet, two books, my headphones, a drink, three days clothing and a pair of dance shoes in my coat all the time, honest.
Chips are fries, and tigers are cats. But, yes, if you specifically want a tiger for your magic show, you aren't going to ask for a "cat" and hope that you get a tiger instead of a housecat.