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Ask Slashdot: CS Degree While Working Full Time?
An anonymous reader writes "First, some quick background: I am 26 years old and I have been working for a large software development company with more than 50,000 employees for about 5 years now. My actual title is Senior Software Engineer, and I am paid well considering I have no degrees and all of the programming languages I have learned (C, C++, C#, Java) are completely self taught. The only real reason I was able to get this job is because I spent a year or so in a support position and I was able to impress the R&D Lead Developer with a handful of my projects. My job is secure for the time being, but what really concerns me is the ability to find another job in the field without 95% of companies discarding me for lack of formal education. I started looking into local community colleges and universities, and much to my dismay, they offer neither nighttime or online courses for computer science. Quitting the job to pursue a degree is not an option, especially considering they will compensate me up to $10,000/yr for going back to school. Has anyone else been in a similar situation? Does anyone know of any accredited colleges and universities that offer a CS degree through online courses? Obviously excluding the scam 'colleges' such as Univ. of Phoenix and DeVry."
and almost everyone I've ever talked to says unless you can already pass compilers in your sleep, you're not going to make it. Start with a years worth of Discrete Math texts and if you can follow that no problem you can make it through years 1 and 2. That said, you can get all the course work from MIT, learn it, and then go get the degree as a formality. It's still hard. There's a lot to do.
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I never finished my degree as my original university seemed to delight in messing with my finances and withholding books; I also slipped into an IT/Software Dev career and am doing reasonably well, but also feel like the lack of an official degree (and some need for brushing up) is a bit threatening. I'd love to poke away slowly at a degree (I'm going to assume that, since what CS I do have is about 12 years old now, little of it will transfer into a new one.)
What prevents him from simply getting a BSc and leaving for another company with more pay?
Also, it's somewhat strange that the company should make an investment in his level of education, and yet the return will go to him (I'm sure he would expect a higher salary).
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
Western Governor's University is a fully online public college. I believe they offer computer science.
I recently finished an AS in Computer Science from a local community college here in Northern Virginia. (I'm working on continuing through a local 4 year college.) I don't know if you already have a 2 year degree but at least here, I was able to combine online classes, especially for subjects I didn't worry too much about actually learning, like history of art, with evening classes in programming (these were offered online too but I wanted to be in a real classroom setting for these).
I don't know about your home/family situation, but maybe you could find evening or weekend classes that work also?
Just my 2c....
Baker.edu
Why is it wierd? Any decent company will offer academic compensation and pays for training. Maybe you work at a company run by assholes?
What prevents him from simply getting a BSc and leaving for another company with more pay?
Also, it's somewhat strange that the company should make an investment in his level of education, and yet the return will go to him (I'm sure he would expect a higher salary).
Lots of companies do this. You seem to completely ignore the possibility that the company could be interested in having its workers be more skilled, and willing to pay for higher skill levels.
I am in your exact situation and i've gotten by fine at the age of 29. I'm on the top rung of salary for the type of development i do. The only issue is getting your foot in the door with head hunters and companies with the lack of "formal" education but i was able to fix that by getting several certifications in my field which have helped out immensely.
Dont focus on just CS degree. Most companies only care if your degree "relates" to your job. There are lots of online and night "IT" Degrees so if I were you I would look into System Administration or Network Security degrees. These degrees still require programming classes so the skills you taught yourself wont be lost just expanded upon. Hope this helps some.
If your job is reasonably secure, keep looking at community colleges. You should be able to find one with an online AS program for CS. Work your way through that first and by the time you finish that you should find that more options are available (more universities are starting online courses all the time) to finish a BS with.
You likely will find at some point you'll need to change your work hours - or save up a truckload of sick time - to take some day time courses but if you start with an AS you might be able to put that off for a while.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
You don't need a CS degree which is more likely to require lab/classroom time. I tried to the CS program and couldn't stand it. I finally ended up with a degree in Math and that's perfectly suitable for a career in programming. I was working full time and taking classes to finish that up. I imagine it's a lot easier to find on-line math classes.
Work Safe Porn
Macon State College in Georgia has a fully online BS in Information Tech that has a 4 year cost of approx 18k.
http://www.maconstate.edu/academics/online.aspx
I went to a local 2 year community college for two years then AIU for the last two. AIU I would probably classify as scummy, however the nearby 4 year university was going to force me to go there 3 years to finish up my degree. I had just finished an associates degree in two summers and two semesters, so I really didn't want to be forced to attend college for 3 full years just to make the school more money. I was working nights at the time, and it was killing my health. Back then the choices were pretty limited but today I think there are legitimate colleges you can attend fully online.
While most universities will not allow you to enroll in a degree part time, they will have no problem with you doing one or two courses. See if your employer will allow you to take off the 1 hour / day 3 days/week to do a course... this would let you do 4-5 courses / year. Whenever you do find the time to do your degree, all these credit hours will be out of the way and it will save you a lot of time.
If your employer is willing to pay for a formal CS education, it's likely they'll be flexible with your work hours. Find a quality university near you, investigate their program and their requirements, and lay out a plan for your boss to look at. They'd probably let you leave a couple hours during the day as long as you came in early/left later to compensate for the hours you've missed. I'm 24 and have a full-time salary position and am getting a CS degree part-time, and only because my employer allows me to leave for a few hours during the day to go to classes.
It's convenient, as I go to a university in a large city, bus to campus when I have them, and bus back to work afterward. Usually I try to take night classes to avoid leaving during the day.
Warning: you will work extremely hard and you won't have much free time if the University you go to is any good.
Head over to degreeinfo.com/forum.php and read up there... plenty of excellent schools that offer regionally accredited degrees online - you study when you have time. Whether you go for CS or SE, it is out there. UoP / DeVry are not scam Universities, they're for profit.. but legit (not endorsing them, just correcting you)... I completed my entire undergrad online through Fort Hays State University (GO TIGERS!) and never set foot into the classroom and there are plenty of folks on the forum who have completed undergrad and graduate degrees online to advance their careers. I'm working on my Masters now, again, through online learning - it's all good if you do your research.
The people that matter know him, obviously like him, are aware of his capabilities, and are willing to help finance his cs degree. They see a big future for him at THEIR company. If they thought he was a job-hopper, they'd kick him to the curb in a second.
I know nothing about their four-year programs, but DeVry's two-year associate degree in electrical engineering technology yields quality, skilled engineering technicians. My company struggles to fill hardware tech roles (we had one open for six months this year), but many of those positions (including at least one that reported directly to me) were filled by recent DeVry graduates. (We're growing and need a hardware tech for every 2-3 hardware engineers, plus a software tech for every 4-5 software engineers.)
So yeah... maybe the four year degrees aren't as valuable, but it's not fair to call DeVry a "scam".
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
Ha! That is so true. (sorry) LOL!
I pursued an undergraduate degree in Computer Science and a graduate degree in Software Engineering, both part time. For the undergraduate degree I took two classes per semester (most semesters), and sometimes one class in the summer. It took 10 years to complete the undergraduate degree, but at the end I had 10 years of experience, a college degree, and no student loan debt. 5 years after that I had a graduate degree, 15 years of experience, and still no debt. If you stick with it, in my opinion, it's worth it!
DeVry is not a scam it's a TRADE / TECH School but do to the old college system it's roped into the degree system.
If all you want is the piece of paper and aren't interested in learning much from your non-major classes, here's what I'd do:
1. Limit yourself to semi-reputable four-year universities. You don't need a top-tier school but you also don't want a degree from somewhere with a reputation so poor it will be only marginally more valuable than a two-year degree from Phoenix.
2. Do your research and determine which school (or schools) require the fewest hours in residence in order to grant a degree. My alma mater requires 60 credit hours (i.e. about four semesters as a full-time student) in residence. It's likely that many universities require less.
3. Do your research and determine which schools will accept transfer credit (and count it toward a degree) from either: a) online universities like Phoenix, and/or b) a community college in your area.
4. Knock out as much transfer credit as you can from online universities and/or your local community college. You want enough so that you only need take the minimum number of hours "in residence" at the school you intend to get the degree from.
5. Transfer all your credits and start working toward completing the in residence requirement. If you're going to be working full time you probably won't want to take more than two classes at a time. Though, you can also do this during the summer, meaning you can complete about 18 credit hours per year. That means it will take you ~3 years to complete the in-residence hours plus however long it took you to amass the 60-70 hours of transfer credit.
If you're dead set on working full-time during the entire affair (and I can definitely see the appeal) it's hard to imagine your being able to complete a degree in fewer than six years from start to finish. And that's a stretch.
I'd learn Ruby, forget college, that's what all the hip kids are doing.
You might consider getting a master's degree, if you already have a BA/BS. Many programs will let you take a few courses not for credit to cover any prerequisite knowledge. You may also be able to skip some of them if you have relevant experience.
Software development company with 50K employees?
If career advancement is truely a concern, by first suggestion would be to review job descriptions for higher positions in your projected career path - do the require college degrees? As I recall, MS (if that is where you work) had a couple of very senior executives without college degrees, they most likely included wiggle-room in their job descriptions to allow for alternative education paths.
Finally, you are already inside - typically the folks that care about technical issues like college degrees are in HR, and their main "contribution" is weeding out applicants - you've avoided that threat, and apparently the line managers appreciate your proven talents.
I would have a plan to complete a college degree, but only invoke it if you find that a degree is really *required* for advancement.
Ken
Corporations aren't inherently evil ;) but from the practical side, usually the tuition payback is spread out over a few years, or is done like a signing bonus where you pay it back if you leave within a certain period of time.
"Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
I'm a network engineer. My company will pay for courses and testing to earn certs (CCNA, CCNP, etc.) but if you leave the company within one to three years (depending on the level of cert) you have to pay back a pro-rated portion of the money.
There is to much put on to a degree and not real skills.
In general there are parts of the old college system that do not fit that well into the tech field
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Everything-You-Thought-You-Knew-2084356.S.91877939?qid=c1e507ec-ae91-4d61-b8b6-27c805bf7664&trk=group_items_see_more-0-b-cmr
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Badges-Earned-Online-Pose-Challenge-2084356.S.88300874?qid=c1e507ec-ae91-4d61-b8b6-27c805bf7664&trk=group_items_see_more-0-b-cmr
www.linkedin.com/groups/Can-Free-Online-Education-Land-2084356.S.95488623?qid=c1e507ec-ae91-4d61-b8b6-27c805bf7664&trk=group_items_see_more-0-b-cmr
In the Tech area Real work / apprenticeships should be Interleaving with learning / tech schools / ongoing education.
“If you study and then you wait, tests show that the longer you wait, the more you will have forgotten,”
That is what you get from setting for 2-4-6 years in a class room before getting out there and doing the real work also having to take lot's way off base classes does not help.
Also taking stuff in smaller blocks / more self-paced is the idea of the badge system
but most college time tables don't work with full time work. Some tech schools / community colleges do.
Generally, job security these days comes from having flexible enough experience and training to be able to find *another* job easily.
This means that if people want to study, then the company should be prepared to meet their employees halfway, or they will only seek to de-motivate the parts of their workforce that's are usually self-motivated.
So while assisting with training doesn't help with the bottom line directly, having a de-motivated workforce will ultimately do more damage to your business.
Well, as someone currently having their masters degree funded by my employer, I can say first they encourage and want people to further their skill set as long as it's in an area related to what we do and they hope they'll benefit for some time by my expanded skill set. Second, they require me to stay there for one year after accepting the final repayment, or else I have to pay the entire sum back.
Employee development is a stated goal of most major companies, I myself have a large oil company to thank for paying for the final year of my BA in Humanities as I worked as a mainframe operator in the late 1980's.
Well-run companies want current employees to grow into more senior positions (keeping their knowledge in-house), and offering to subsidise post-secondary education is a common way of doing it.
The typical requirements are that you need to be a full-time employee for the duration of the course, achieve a certain level of academic performance, and the annual benefit is capped at a certain dollar amount.
Ken
so if you are planning to a) stay at this place long enough to get a degree, and b) stay longer at this place they will make you sign up for for them
to pay your education bills (which is a good thing) you can see right there you will be at this place/job for quite a while more.
So at that point will you be wanting to go into a computer science position or something different?
but honestly after 10 years of real education nobody cares so much about education unless you are going to teach or do research for the govt.
get an education but think carefully about in what area.
If I could walk that way I wouldnt need cologne.
They're fully accredited and make you actually study. wgu.edu
This line of thinking is a reason we have a shortage of IT professionals. The company I work for is desperate to hire both college graduates with near term 1-3 years up to 70-90k doing work that is not out of reach for the middle of even bottom of a graduating class. We also are hiring higher end for much higher wages. For the mid-west these are solid positions.
At the end if the day less people in IT means more $$ for me to command, but I hate seeing such a supply demand issue. We now pay 2-3 off shore to do the same work as one on shore: cost is the same and we would replace them in a second. Local universities say there are almost no graduates coming down the pipe that are not H1B.
I am by far not the best java resource and I am not management friendly and with 12 years in IT and a non-CS degree I am closer to 200k than 100k in a cheap city to live in.
Not intending to be mean; I am frustrated that the jobs are there and students are steered toward other degrees that are not any better. Oh. If you are female or a minority IT is even better.
Happy Holidays
Ivy league is now all free, in your own time and 100% online now: https://www.coursera.org/ To be honest whether or not you have a degree makes no difference by itself. What you know will shine through in any real technical interview. I've interviewed CS PhDs that couldn't code their way out of a paperbag - and on the other hand many of best programmers I know are no-degree "ferrels". Anders Hejlsberg to name one. You should concern yourself with learning. Read CS textbooks and do the exercises (knuth, ullman, cslr). Compete in programming competitions. Set yourself some ambitious project work like a compiler or an OS kernel. Write And Read lots of code written by lots of different people that does lots of different things. Programming is a craft
If you can get over the degree pre-requirements some of them have, a professional master's degree in CS would be perfect for you. Look around in your area, chat with the admissions people, etc. to see if there's any flexibility. They're designed for working professionals and, while they'll cover some of the fundamentals, are much more suited to a working professional's lifestyle.
Listen well to the voice of experience. I went straight from high school to work as a programmer. Anyone who tells you that lack of a degree will not hold you back or will not get you a job - or that you wouldn't want those jobs anyway - has been fortunate or short-sighted. You need the degree for upward mobility and continued job security.
I worked full time while getting two associates, a bachelor's, and a master's (of sorts - long story). It's hard, even harder if you're married and have kids, but this is something you have to do for yourself and your family.
If you live in any sort of a big city, there's bound to be a college that offers night classes. That's the right way to do this. It won't be a diploma mill but the professors will care about you and will not be trying to wash you out or just see you as a paycheck. One side benefit is that you'll learn while going through the process. Maybe you know all there is about computers, but learning all the other courses you might think are BS, they'll help you think and speak and write.
You didn't say where your current job is, but in Chicago DePaul university had a lot of CS classes that go 6pm to 9pm, and you get a real degree at the end.
You seem to think that if the course was online things would be fine. However it is more complicated than that. Many universities have online classes you could follow (e.g. Stanford) but the dirty secret is a good student will be ahead of the material taught in classes anyway. This is done by reading the books *before* the teacher discusses the material. Then the classes are only used to hash out fine details you did not quite figure out. Teachers have after school schedules for taking questions so this does not even need to happen inside class. If you are in a CS course they will answer e-mails with questions as well. It is also a good idea to get someone else's notes from class and study those. Universities usually do not force you to attend classes. I skipped nearly all theoretical classes starting in my second year and only bothered attending labs and things like that then did the exams. I did this because it was really cumbersome for me to commute to college. Grades will suffer if you do this but it is possible to finish a degree like this. If you have the time and inclination to study by yourself. One good time estimate, in my experience, is take the time listed in the class schedule and double that.
It will be very difficult to find the time to study while you are working a full time job at the same time. The only people I know who managed to work and study at the same time had part-time jobs close to the university grounds and they lived nearby (their commutes took less than 30 minutes). If your company has 50k employees they probably have a lot of students in there and some working place close to university grounds. It may be possible also that they will allow you to take an extended leave of absence from work to study but I doubt it will be long enough to finish an undergraduate course.
If you really want an undergraduate degree just look for a college near work and stick to working part-time.
More state universities are offering online courses. You can your classes online on your own time and get the same degree as the students that went to the classroom. The universities are accredited and you'll have a degree that will allow you seek post-graduate education if you are inclined.
The few classes that aren't offered online can be taken during night or weekend sessions (usually a couple of hours on Tue and Thur night).
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
I have a BS in mechanical engineering. I was working at a large company with a small software team and had a secure job. I got an online Master's degree at UIUC and moved to a job in a company in Silicon Valley I'm sure you wish you worked for. To get into the Master's program, they "provisionally accepted" me meaning that if I had a good GPA after 3 classes they'd accept me. I took 1 class per semester, 3 times a year, so it took 3 years to finish.
More then likely the company he works for has a stipulation where if he leaves within a year of getting the money for the education he has to pay all of it back. That is what I am doing currently and I have to stay on for atleast a year from when I get the last tuition reimbursement check. Educating the workforce is always good for a company. It can allow the employee to better understand some businesses processes and adds to their critical thining skills.
If you do want advancement it might be a good idea to take some courses in English grammar. Since you're specifically talking about eligibility for hiring (and presumably advancement) then I feel justified pointing out your grammar could use some work. I don't know whether the 'editors' have even fixed up some of the more egregious problems in the post but your e-mails and resume convey a lot to people who read them. As someone who has hired programmers, I tend to get a negative impression of people who are sloppy with their writing.
Author of Enyo: Up and Running from O'Reilly Media
I had the same issue and used RIT part-time for about 6 years to complete my degree.
http://online.rit.edu/
Hello,
I am in a very similar situation to yours. I am 28 years old, have 5 years of experience as a computer programmer, and do not hold a degree of any kind. I took a few evening classes at a local community college while working full time, but unfortunately they do not offer all the classes I need in the evening, so I would have to take some during the day to complete a degree there. They also only offer an associate's degree in computer science, so I would need to go to a larger university to get a bachelor's. After spending a lot of time searching for universities that offer online degrees in computer science I finally found the University Of Illinois' online Computer Science program. You will need to fulfill some prerequisites in order to be accepted into the program, but you can probably get those at a local community college like I did. I have so far completed one semester online at the University of Illinois online and it went pretty well. I had to spend a lot of time in the evening after work and on weekends doing homework and watching online lectures, but in the end I think it will be worth it. Also, the degree you get online from the University of Illinois is not any different than the one you would get if you took classes on campus. The degree does not indicate in any way that it was earned through online coursework. Here is are a couple of URLs where you can find more information about the University of Illinois online degree programs: http://www.uis.edu/online/ and http://www.online.uillinois.edu/
Why? Well... it's GREAT to be an "auto-didact", 1st (as you have done) - why again??
Since it gives you foundations to build on (& hopefully NOT just in programming, but in the Operating System(s) + hardware you work on also).
E.G.-> That has saved MY tail, & projects that spanned into the many millions of dollar ranges with teams I've worked with professionally before that would've been dropped...
I saw things that "plain coders" could not, fixing them (& they had more education than I did, sporting Masters or B.S. CSC (when I only had AAS level going for me)).
Why do it? Well... I can tell you 1st hand: YOU WILL LEARN THINGS YOU DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE - I nearly GUARANTEE that much, & yes, they are truly helpful @ times!
I have said this before here many times: The BEST COURSE I FELT I EVER TOOK TO THIS VERY DAY? DataStructures & also SQL based coursework... the 1st is great for performance & efficiency tricks + the 2nd is VERY APPLICABLE IN THE REAL WORLD (where the greatest volume of jobs is & with many languages/tools/environments).
DataStructures can be implemented in many languages (I've taken it in JAVA but I have seen it done in C++ & Pascal also), & the most important thing to learn, IS NOT SYNTAX OF ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE, but rather instead, CONCEPTS!
* I have been SLOWLY doing the work for B.S. in CSC here as well, since I got used to working while doing the AAS part earlier & over time!
(LOL, but I do so, ONLY as time & money permit, since I am into other things now other than writing code for a living (must diversify is why))
"Chipping away @ the B.S. stone" here since 1994 (since I am long past the AAS part) but doing as YOU have - working while I do it... it's tough, & leaves little time for much else really (well, for those you love or things your own that are worth something, you have to MAKE THE TIME too, but there's only 24 hrs. in a day!)...
My brother (an officer & a gentlemen, a Major in the United States military + Bronze Star decorated hero too no less)?
He did the same for his MBA - same offer as you are getting pretty much!
(Which I helped him on a couple times & he was like "you STILL remember this stuff 20++ yrs. later?" & I was like "SURE, I paid for it, & if you didn't 'commit it'? You failed out... it got 'ground into me'")
He did the same to get his MBA, same deal as you are seeing - it's WORTH it!
(He had to offer 4 yrs. of service back to the company in return, & he was already 5++ yrs. into working with them as a shop floor foremen after his command experience with men in the military... now, for a HUGE Fortune 100 "military industrial complex" company? He's the plant manager...).
He had little time from all of it & I felt for him (been there, done that, is why & still am when time + money permit, albeit, out of my OWN pocket).
APK
P.S.=> It's also VERY WORTH IT TO YOU, for advancement purposes as well (but I will tell you that you learn FAR MORE ON THE JOB, than you do in academia, overall... that is for sure, ask ANY long time developer that. It is TRULY where "the rubber meets the road" & where you get your hands on PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS (for me it was in the business world, since I had my B.S. in Business Administration with MIS concentration also, it made sense, & hence why I noted SQL above - you know it "plugs into" most any langauge there is, & is WIDELY used for MIS type business applications worldwide, & no 2 companies' data is the EXACT same, so you have a great 'surface area' for job prospects too)...
... apk
The specific degree isn't important if you are trying to get past the HR filter. University of Maryland (UMUC) http://www.umuc.edu/students/academics/ has online programs. A lot of US military personnel take courses without ever being on campus.
"what really concerns me is the ability to find another job in the field without 95% of companies discarding me for lack of formal education"
You are 26 and working for a company with 50K employees, some of whom are both in high positions and enlightened enough to have recognized your intelligence without needing to see a "credential." Any company like that ought to have many subdivisions to choose from, so you have your own little constellation of possible new employers, all within this company.
And, should you really decide you want to look elsewhere, you have a zero-effort technique to screen out the 19 out of 20 companies that you say are not as enlightened as the one you already work for. Big win, because wouldn't you be miserable moving to one of the 19 out of 20 stupid ones?
Being a student is in itself a full time job. Therefore no.
University are not really setup for working pros the tech schools like DeVry due offer night classes. Univ. of Phoenix and others offer online.
But you have years of work skills in the field so that should count for something. Also lots of University force you to take filler and fluff classes. Some even force you to live on site at high costs.
At least at some tech schools you can test out of classes. But with 5+ years of in the field work is so far a head of what you can pick up at University and if you where to go they may even be teaching stuff that is out of date as well.
I went to a local community college for my first two years, and completed a CS associate's degree, then enrolled in UMUC and received a CIS bachelor's degree. The CS degree could probably be done entirely online as well. Not all courses were online--I took some night ones early on, and even some week-long full-time courses that I took personal leave to attend. I expect there are similar schools wherever you live. Disclaimer: The term "years" above is being used very loosely. It really took me about 10 years, because I took some time off in the middle and tried my best to juggle work, school, and family during all of those years.
1) Tax breaks. The company gets a tax break for these types of expenses.
2) There is usually a clause in the agreement that the company gets to approve of the courses that you are taking. And that you have to stay with the company for 5 years after or pay the money back.
As a manager who started as a programmer, I can say that I couldn't care less about what degree you have or don't have - the years of experience is what matters both in billing you out, and to getting the job done. So unless your company has a sweet deal - and some are out there - where they will pay you for getting the degree and let your study time count as work (that is mostly government positions), don't waste your time and effort.
As previously mentioned, a math degree would require less laboratory classes and less projects. You could do the studying to learn u/g level mathematical concepts at your own time and you would mostly have to worry about homeworks, midterms and exams and not so much about big (team) projects.
Projects in CS curriculums are extremely time-consuming. And most importantly, after all these years of s/w engineering experience, you don't need them. You have already acquired most of or more than the skills that these classes are designed to teach.
On the other hand, what you most likely lack is formal CS theory training. Being able to grasp deep algorithmic and complexity concepts, discrete math, numerical analysis, linear algebra, data structures etc would undoubtedly help you become a better engineer.
So my suggestion is a Math degree with as many CS theory courses as possible. Keep in mind that some of them will have projects, e.g., numerical analysis or algorithms, but those projects will actually teach _you_ something and are usually not as time consuming as big S/W engineering design and analysis or compilers projects.
check out http://www.online.uillinois.edu/
Have you checked the Open University? [http://www.open.ac.uk/] Not an US institution but could be what you are looking for.
A math degree would require less laboratory classes and less projects. You could do the studying to learn u/g level mathematical concepts at your own time and you would mostly have to worry about homeworks, midterms and exams and not so much about big (team) projects.
Projects in CS curriculums are extremely time-consuming. And most importantly, after all these years of s/w engineering experience, you don't need them. You have already acquired most of or more than the skills that these classes are designed to teach.
On the other hand, what you most likely lack is formal CS theory training. Being able to grasp deep algorithmic and complexity concepts, discrete math, numerical analysis, linear algebra, data structures etc would undoubtedly help you become a better engineer.
So my suggestion is a Math degree with as many CS theory courses as possible. Keep in mind that some of them will have projects, e.g., numerical analysis or algorithms, but those projects will actually teach _you_ something and are usually not as time consuming as big S/W engineering design and analysis or compilers projects.
A few years ago I was in a fairly similar position to the one you now find yourself. I had a few years experience of successfully freelancing as a web developer for small/medium business building e-commerce/CMS sites but, despite what experience I thought I had, without a degree or formal education I couldn't really secure a job interview with any development companies.
I decided the best option (for me) was to return to full time education. I'm half way through the degree course just now so I can't say yet whether it was the right choice or not, but I think I'll be better off because of it. From a technical perspective I haven't really learnt anything new or been challenged a great deal (so far) but I've certainly benefited from other areas of the course: working in a team, project management, law and legal issues surrounding software development to name a few. I wonder if these are some of the things employers value from a formal education or why they won't consider you without one? Considering how quickly things can change, half of what you learned in university regarding software development/programming may be redundant a few years after graduating.
Here in the UK we have the Open University (http://www.open.ac.uk/) which accepts international students but I don't know how they work as I've never had any dealings with them. I know I've not been a lot of help, but maybe hearing how someone else in a similar situation went about things will help you decide what is best for you.
In any case, good luck! Hopefully you choose what is right for you and it works out!
I cannot speak to which degree, but here is what I can tell you from getting a degree while working full time.
TL/DR : I'd recommend a Major you love, a Minor for work, and a life of reading and studying to keep your skills sharp - but without a Bachelor's degree, your career will be an uphill battle.
IN DETAIL -
1. It sucks
2. Interviewers seem to be impressed if you can say "I worked while getting my degree"
3. Most jobs will pay for at least some of your classes
4. A degree is an unofficial requirement for advancement - you aren't going to go far without a degree in most companies. Furthermore, you are unlikely to get hired without a Bachelor's.
I was not taught much that was useful in day-to-day coding that couldn't be learned with focused study on pluralsight.com (I recommend: Algorithms and Data Structures; Design Patterns; HTTP Fundamentals; TCP/IP for developers; and every database resource you can get your hands on).
You don't need a CS degree for 90% of the programmer jobs out there. I am biased toward them (being a CS major myself) but any Science/Engineering degree is more than enough for consideration. Hell, one of my CS Professors had his Doctorate in Chemistry.
I'd say, find an area you LOVE for your bachelor's degree and then Minor in CS. If you REALLY want to focus, then by all means, major in CS. But regardless of which you choose, you are going to be riding the wave of reading/studying to keep your skills up.
Many, many large and mid-sized companies will pay for their employees' continuing education up to and including the master's degree level. Every company I've ever worked for has had such a policy.
What they will often do, however (and this is a perfectly reasonable thing, in my opinion) is have the employee sign a contract requiring X years further service once the degree program is complete, or the employee needs to reimburse some or all of the tuition. Usually the contracts are humane (e.g., if you're laid off, that doesn't count) and the programs are always at the discretion of management so it's unlikely you'd be in a situation where you got such a deal and really didn't trust your management (or vice versa.)
My advice to the O.P. is not to worry about accredited on-line courses, but to find a local accredited college that in some way caters to continuing education students-- evening courses, on-line options, something-- but still has a physical presence. I am *not* suggesting a two year community college, but a real, four-year accredited college that has programs for working students. They do exist.
Either that, or work out alternate work hours with your local management-- 50k+ employees is a pretty big company and they may already flex-time policies for any one of a number of reasons that could be adapted for you.
I am in the same boat and work for a company with around 14,000 employees. I am a Senior Principle Software Engineer and make too much to take off work and finish up my degree.
I decided to drop out of college and go work at a startup that was bought out. After years of promotions and everyone assuming I had a degree this is where I am at. I feel stuck at my job and don't feel like I can go anywhere else and make what I do now without getting a degree.
I have looked into the online CS programs from OSU and Florida State. OSU requires you to have a degree already or you can double major, taking more time. If anyone knows how good Florida Sate is or if there are any other reputable universities that offer undergraduate CS programs, I would be very interested.
I worked 40+ hours a week while getting my cs degree in college, starting at 18-22. I was able to just put most of the college into loans and my minimum wage job basically only paid for food,gas,books. At 26 if you can not get loans to cover it , it might be much harder. You can take part time classes and spread the cost over more than 4 years, but I would only go this route if its something you really want. At 26 most companies will only let you code for a short time after anyway as old developers are looked down upon. You might want this degree in something other than CS
You don't really need a formal CS degree. Most companies don't seem to care WHAT subject is studied as long as you got a degree. Many of the most competent programmers I've met had no formal CS degree. They had other degrees and sometimes just took a couple of formal classes in programming or other CS-related subjects that interested them and sometimes not. A motivated person can easily learn what they need online these days if the goal is just to crank out code.
The fact that your current gig will pay for your education is good. Take advantage of that, even if the courses aren't directly applicable to your day to day job.
Best,
You might not need a degree as much as you think. You say you work for a company of 50,000 employees, so it's probably a well-recognized name.
I'm a high-school dropout turned tech-support --> developer. For the first 6 years as a dev I couldn't get an interview to save my life. I chalked it up to lack of degree. But once I got a lucky break and got a defense contractor's name on my resume, my phone won't stop ringing.
If you really want the degree, my advice is to do it and don't wait. I still want a degree, but at this point in my career, it would be more of an indulgence than a necessity.
I started looking into local community colleges and universities, and much to my dismay, they offer neither nighttime or online courses for computer science.
Why does it have to be so nearby? My online CS degree was like 50 miles away. Made for a long drive at finals time for the proctored exams, but its only about 3 times per year. They had procedures if you're too far away, but visiting campus provided an interesting excuse to meet the profs etc. Most non-CS classes were written essay exams (no problemo, sit down and scribble for an hour), but most CS classes were large project (exhausting endless hours). Also if your local state U 2-year college doesn't offer 4th-year compilers class or whatever, that doesn't mean a local prof won't proctor your online state-U exam. I have even been "proctored" by a secretary/receptionist. Policies might have changed over the last decade or so, but this is all how it used to be.
Also most local community state-U might not offer 4th year systems analysis class, but they offer psychology of human relations or Calc I or WTF-101 and most major U are all hybrid anyway so as long as you can handle the upper level classes remote, you can take public speaking in person at the "2-year" community-U probably without even filling out transfer paperwork. Research this carefully, of course.
One HUGE flashing light warning from a guy who's survived it, is you'll see advertising copy about 10 different curricula offered, or sub-majors, or whatever, like IT/MIS and networking and web design and software engineering and embedded and classical CS, and a small local might even offer all of the required classes DURING THE DAY but at night they only offer, say, web design, or they only offer compilers at night one semester every 3 years. That was me in 2001, running like hell from a small in-person local to a "nearby" mostly online degree.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
I'm 56. I've been in the computer business for 32 years. I have no college. I've worked for 3 companies, one very large and 2 very small. The small companies hired me for my skills which I developed at the large company. My current title is Field Applications Engineer. The 6 figure salary is not bad. YMMV.
If you want to rise in your current company, you might consider finding out what skills you need to rise to the next level on the corporate ladder and then target those skills with individual courses. For example, my Mom was a "senior programming analyst" for about 20 years. She was told that she needed personnel and project management skills to rise to the next level of project or group leader. She decided she was having fun where she was, so her continuing education focused on a couple of courses that let her broaden her personal approach to her tasks. Her decision worked in the sense that since she was at the top of the pay scale for her job, she got the max annual bonus for many years in a row, and the company did not fire her through 3 complete corporate mergers. She did have a bachelors degree in math, but her focus was programming and the courses she took were programming courses.
UCSD has extension courses that may be available for open enrollment. That's where she went. She was a Berkeley alum but I'm not sure that was a pre-req for admission to the extension courses.
For you personally I suggest courses in software engineering, rather than "pure" computer science which will touch on a wide variety of topics that may not apply. Or pick/choose courses from the CS degree program at the university of your choice, on the theory that you can learn stuff that applies to you now and can later on be applied to a degree program. But if you're already a programmer, your next step up may be software engineering and project management.
A company with over 50,000 employees has probably had a few folks who've been in the position you are in. Start with your HR resources, and ask them if they can connect you with people who've done a degree part-time.
I did both an MS and a PhD part-time, paid for by my employer. Obviously, that's different. A part-time MS is a well-trodden path. A part-time PhD is not quite so well trodden, but it's been done. (Although my adviser told me flat out that nobody finishes ... if that was meant as a challenge, it worked).
I ended up taking an unpaid leave of absence, but as I said, a PhD is different, in that there's a bigger "crunch" at the end.
In the end, whether you do this or not, and whether you succeed or not is going to depend on three people (if your large company is like mine): You, Your Manager, and Your Manager's Manager. Your first two lines of management will have to fly cover for you, and deflect criticism from above and from below. You'll need to be in a position where the expectations on your work are a bit lower, in compensation for the degree work. You'll also need to realize that you won't get great ratings, and you will probably be passing up promotions and raises for the duration.
Whatever you do, don't do a degree and bolt for another job. If you do, you're just poisoning things for the next person. If you do the degree, stay for a while and show that the company gets something out of this, then the next person won't have as much of an uphill fight. (When I started, the program I wanted to use was discontinued because of folks who went to UCB or Stanford and then immediately left the company).
I climbed up the same way you did - I'm 47 now, and I can tell you that once you've got 10 years of experience, no company (no company that you'd want to work at, anyway) will give a s*** about formal education. Companies care about the bottom line - what can you deliver, what have you delivered in the past, what sort of domain knowledge do you have, how fast can you learn. Heads down, focus on creating solutions, document every success you have, and make sure you have great relationships with the folks who hired you, and you'll have no problems at all.
Believe me, no one checks up on this stuff. Say you got a 4 year degree from some small university that no one knows too well.
BS in CS at OSU - http://ecampus.oregonstate.edu/online-degrees/undergraduate/computer-science/
BA in CS at TESC - http://www.tesc.edu/heavin/ba/Computer-Science.cfm
BS in CS at UIS - http://csc.uis.edu/
BS in CS or BS in Math and Computer Science at UIC - http://cs.illinois.edu/undergraduates/academics#ugrad
University of Maryland University College is an accredited correspondence college that the military uses. They have a degree in computer science http://www.umuc.edu/undergrad/ugprograms/cmsc.cfm
I've been in the industry nearly 15 years now. I think not having a degree has only come up maybe one or two times. Sure didn't stop me from getting recruited by Microsoft.
What I would focus on is a couple of things:
I'm not trying to knock a college education - if you want it for the education. If you want it just for the advancement, the things above are going to have a much bigger impact on your career and your ability to find employment in many cases.
Random Musings
You got a "Senior Software Engineer" title at age of 26? O.o
Sorry, pal, but I think your company had spoiled you badly.
On the other hand, KUDOS for your approach to the problem (it is instinctive? How did you realize it?)
Formal education is a need (I know, I did'nt complete my own - besides having a excellent technical formation and experience : I'm entitled to get a PMP title if I apply for it), and you're 150% correct on concerning your future. Don't let the size of your company eludes you, it appears to be not on his best shape.
(off course this is a superficial analysis based on my own experience - as always, your mileage my vary)
Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
Believe me, no one checks up on this stuff. Say you got a 4 year degree from some small university that no one knows too well.
Because if you have the bad luck of hitting one bastard that actually does the check, you're screwed up for the rest of your life.
Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
After facing a similar issue myself, I settled on Western Governor's University. It's an IT degree, not CS, but it's online and self-paced which offers lots of flexibility. I entered WGU with quite a bit of time at other universities in various majors from engineering to liberal arts, and now only have a few hours left before I graduate and have been impressed with the overall quality of education. I would recommend their programs to anyone and would hire someone with a WGU degree without hesitation. I plan on enrolling in their Masters of Computer Security program after I complete my undergrad, too. Unless you're trying to get the status of an Ivy League education, I don't think what school you graduate from matters so much -- only that you graduate. Especially since so many in our industry are self-taught. After you get your undergrad completed, you may be able to find Masters programs in your area in CS or Software that fit your work schedule better if you really feel you need it or want it, too. DeVry, at least in our area, is a very good school as well. I have worked with several DeVry grads and they've been some of my most capable colleagues.
ECU.edu, almost all their degree programs are online. You may need to get a proctor for the midterms and finals however.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
The short answer is yes you can, but it depends and there are things you could consider to make the path easier. There are a lot of things you can do to gain more information and advice on this. Some things to consider doing: 1. Talk to a CS dept adviser at a local University you're interested in. Ask their advice on this see what they suggest. 2. Talk to your company, find out all you can about education benefits and such. If can't offer you tuition assistance your boss might be willing to offer time to help with the study involved. Even a few hours a week could help. I'm a SE manager and do this for employees who seek training on their own. 3. Consider things beyond a straight CS degree. Do you need a straight up CS degree or is there something like and informatics or networking degree that will do instead. Compiler theory is great and all but most CS graduates don't really use the majority of stuff they focused on unless they go into Kernal development and such. If you're a non-java web developer there's a chance you'll use almost none of what you learn in some CS programs. 4. Consider weather you need a CS degree specifically or will any degree work. I've been a Software Engineer for years and moved into management several years ago. My degrees are in Microbiology and Pyschology. I work often with research and health information and learning the CS portion was easy enough (I already had a strong math background) and having a degree in the business or research end of what your'e developing for can be a big boost.
I am in the same boat and work for a company with around 14,000 employees. I am a Senior Principle Software Engineer and make too much to take off work and finish up my degree.
I decided to drop out of college and go work at a startup that was bought out. After years of promotions and everyone assuming I had a degree this is where I am at. I feel stuck at my job and don't feel like I can go anywhere else and make what I do now without getting a degree.
I have looked into the online CS programs from OSU and Florida State. OSU requires you to have a degree already or you can double major, taking more time. If anyone knows how good Florida Sate is or if there are any other reputable universities that offer undergraduate CS programs, I would be very interested.
I work for a large computer company and they paid for my masters while I was working. I took a bunch of undergrad and grad courses and did one or two at a time. Some classes are harder than others so those terms just take one. Bundle two "easy' classes together to save time. Some universities offer evening courses (Portland State University has some and is also a well-regarded program.) You may be able to test out of easier early classes in some cases.
For the working arrangement, if you can work out some deal like "I'll be out Tues/Thurs afternoons but will make up the time by doing X,Y" it could work out fine.
An online program in computer science by a reputable school. Easy peasey. Use the same one that every military member uses as well as several distance learners.
University of Maryland University College. Try this link to start http://www.umuc.edu/undergrad/ugprograms/index.cfm.
Note the list under Bachelors of Science degrees?
Cheers!
Not online, though. I was fortunate to live near a great school and started taking part time classes before transitioning to full time classes. A full time, daytime course load while working full time IS possible if you have an understanding employer and your work schedule can flex. I'm not going to say it was easy. Less sleep happened than I'd like and my life was basically work and school, but I got through it.
In 1979 I was 25 years old, working as a technician, and decided to go back to school. I was in a similar situation regarding educational opportunities, except I wanted to pursue a BS in engineering. I was well respected by my boss for my work, and he allowed me to work second shift while I pursued my degree, and in fact started a second shift where there had been none. Turns out some other people in the department wanted to work second shift (3pm - 11:30pm) for their own reasons, so we had a small crew of 4 or 5 which made it not so lonely. The company had tuition reimbursement for courses one passed, so the company paid for most of my degree.
I took three courses a semester each fall and spring; there were two summer sessions and I took two courses each of those, typically one course in my major and something to fill out elective requirements.
The downside: Yes, it was a grind. Nobody outside of school or work saw me for four years. In retrospect, I don't think I had enough downtime to allow all that I was learning to sink in; it is not really the best way to learn. My wife divorced me.
The upside: No student debt, a great sense of accomplishment, and my wife divorced me. Oh, and a BSEE.
... does not mean that everybody else should be too.
Other people want to be more than just average.
In this business, it's more like 95% of companies don't care at all about your education if you have experience, especially experience in the particular technologies they are currently using. Just search a job site for "equivalent experience." You won't get many hits outside software development. When most candidates can't write the simplest code in an interview, your portfolio of open source projects will count for much more than any degree unless it is from MIT, Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, or Cambridge. Most software projects simply don't need CS education beyond OOP and when to use a list, hash, or tree. I don't list any education on my resume (because I didn't even graduate high school) and nobody EVER asks (and I get plenty of interviews, offers, and contract jobs in the SF Bay Area.)
If you already have years of programming experience and are working full time then you time would be much better spent fleshing out your Github than getting a CS degree. By all means, educate yourself because you must to stay relevant in this business but don't think a CS degree makes you more marketable.
If you are born with natural aptitudes for logic and math, then you will do well as a programmer, regardless of which university you choose.
If you are not born with these aptitudes, you will never be a great programmer. I realize that genetic predetermination is culturally unpopular; we would rather believe that you can do anything if you put your mind to it. Well, as many people who tried to jump into the field in the 90's just for the money learned the hard way: you've either got it or you don't. These are the same class of people who go to college to learn how to become a programmer (but who are not already programmers) who are telling you that college is too hard. They misrepresent the level of difficulty only because they could never get it. If you are a natural, it will not be anywhere near that hard for you.
It isn't just a matter of skill either. You have to like spending hours at a stretch typing away at a keyboard, engaging your mind in the perpetual resolution of logical constructs. To some people, this task is about as much fun as doing several pages of algebra homework. They will never like doing it no matter how good they get at it, and that distaste for doing it will make college hard and work even harder.
So, if you like it and you are good at, then a college degree won't be too hard for you to get, but the only value it offers you is a piece of paper which (presumably) potential employers will respect. Otherwise, don't bother; figure out what you actually like and are actually good at, and chase that down instead.
I worked full time while I got my degrees.
NOBODY has ever asked me for my degrees.
All they care about is that I can solve their problems.
While not the right fit for everyone Harvard Extension School.
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/
At the bachelor's level they on offer a Bachelors of Liberal Arts (ALB), but they offer a great deal of flexibility in selecting courses including many interesting computer science courses. A considerable number of courses can be taken on-line, but there is a residency requirement. Although it is fairly common for people to commute from quite a distance to attend courses to meet the residency requirement, personally commuted from Virginia to complete my ALM degree.
Once you have that 'or equivalent' it doesn't matter. I never did cobble together a degree despite several years of college (changed majors a lot). I've held jobs that 'required' everything from a BS in CS to MIS and/or an MBA. Nobody ever asked questions. If you can put the experience on your resume and do the job you can get the job, with very few exceptions.
You can do a BSc entirely by distance learning through London Uni (apart from the exams which you sit at a British Council office anywhere in the world) and it is also relatively cheap.
http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/goldsmiths/bsc-computing-information-systems-bsc-diploma-work-entry-route
They have many other undergrad & postgrad courses too.
I taught myself Z80 assembly in the early 80s and got a job as a programmer. I soon found myself in your boat. I went to community college for 4 years to get a 2 year associates, then another 4 years at a regular college to get my bachelor's in Math. I took 2 classes a semester and quickly learned how to pair classes (e.g. I took a chemistry with lab with a physics with lab one semester, whoops).
I was lucky in that my boss was cool on my going to class in the middle of the day, long as I put in my 8 hours and met my deadlines.
It's been my experience that resumes listing degrees from places like DeVry, National University, and University of Phoenix are treated the same as those with no degree: the circular file.
I got a master's degree in software engineering from the University of Bordeaux, in France (a relatively good university) while working full-time in the UK.
I registered normally as a student then I told them I had a full-time job and couldn't attend classes. As a result I only needed to come for exams, which I passed without any issue whatsoever.
I got my bachelor's degree in computer science the normal way, though.
I also looked whether it was possible to do a PhD thesis quickly, and apparently it is possible to do it in a single year assuming you have strong support, and of course enough material to write a good thesis in such a short time.
... Any decent company will offer academic compensation and pays for training. Maybe you work at a company run by assholes?
Run by assholes who are self-aware and know that any sane person will quit it they have the opportunity - which a degree will give them.
There's always the risk for a company giving training to employees, and then they leave.
There's always a risk of not giving training, and they stay.
I encourage you to get your degree on line. I did an online masters with UoP back in 2004, and I am willing to vouch for the quality of the instruction I got. The only ouch with UoP is the cost: It is pretty pricey, but you get what you pay for.
I turned in work for my masters degree from a dozen different cities, and I would have flunked out of a conventional program, just based on my work schedule and inability to attend classes. The MS has been a vital tool in securing the job I now have, not because it makes me a better technical worker, but because it causes an involuntary reaction in Catbert to put the resume on the top of the stack.
Indeed, in my current work we are prohibited from hiring software engineers without a degree, which is a dern shame, because one of our best guys could not transition from the prior contract because of this peccadillo.
Universities will be the next victim of the Internet. Why bother with a Lit degree when one can download the classics from Gutenberg.org? It has been several years since I consulted any source other than the internet for CS information, so the only reason to fool around with a traditional university is the party/social scene. (That is not a bad reason to attend, by the way, but it has nothing to do with information transfer or professional development.)
You have many pathways open to you. Since you already have career experience, the prestige for your undergraduate degree is not a big issue. I know it's probably too much think about right now, but a word of advice is that the school where you get your master's degree should be more prestigious than where you get your undergraduate degree. Accreditation is key. Here is a link to the DOE source for accreditation information. http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/
1. Get an associates' degree that will transfer to a four-year college. There are many new developments in online eduction, so with this path you may find there are more choices a year or two down the road.
*Patten University is not yet accredited for the AA degree, but has applied to WASC, So this may be an organization to watch. [http://patten.edu/]
Their accreditation status: http://patten.edu/about-patten/accreditation/
2. Get a Bachelor's degree online
I think the accredited online option for a Bachelor's that seems closest is Western Governor's University. [http://www.wgu.edu/online_it_degrees/information_technology_degree_software]. This isn't a computer science degree, but could easily work for your career path.
3. Go wonky and get a non-accredited degree and bank your credentials???
Saylor University has CS online, but not accredited. [http://www.saylor.org/]
Degreed banks credentials for you [http://degreed.com/]
Hope this helps!
I agree with what many are already saying a degree in CS seems a bit redundant with your expertise. Consider Math, Physics or Electrical Engineering. Not only will a BS in any of the subjects get your foot in the door your work experience will be more or less a second degree in the eyes of your future employers. Also your expertise wont be so narrowly defined and it may open up more job opportunities. Further you may find you really love the subject that you study in school.
The quick answer - If you want to broaden your options of where you can work get a 4yr degree in any IT related program that you can. See it for what it is, an accomplishment, not an education that will make you an IT rock star.
I am an IT manager that has worked his way up the IT ranks over the last 20 years. I was very fortunate to break through the no degree non-sense as an experienced hire in the late 90's IT hiring frenzy. Then the IT crash happened in early 2000's and bam...out on my butt and in serious trouble to just get an interview. With the flood of IT candidates, HR departments took the easy route and just filtered anyone without a 4 year degree. I had seen the writing on the wall and had started working on my degree before I found myself out on the street and I stuck to it. I studied nearly every night and weekend while still working 50-70hrs in IT. I used to say "college is getting in the way of my education" as the crap I was "learning" was seriously cutting into my "nerd time" if you know what I mean. It took 5yrs since I was also working full time but it’s now out of the way, and by out of the way I mean I have opened up more opportunities for future employment. Nothing worse than finding yourself being "awesome" and out of a job but excluded because you don't have a degree - and the company that put me out on my butt - a very successful 90,000 employee at the time, 200,000 employees now, global company.
So, now that I'm a manager I have taken painful steps with my HR department to create job descriptions that do not put the degree over all else. It's nearly impossible. Our HR cannot get over the idea that IT people can pull such high salaries without a degree. They force me to consider college as a 4yr work equivalence, so if I have a position that needs 5yrs experience, a person without a degree would have to have 9yrs!? They also force me to consider years over quality which is also frustrating. They don't actually care what the degree is in, just that you have one in something. This is not a unique experience with companies that are not technology companies or are large technology companies, like say a large telecomm where I had problems getting HR to forward resumes to me that I know they had. But, again, this is still an HR problem. I’ve evaluated hundreds of resumes and interviewed nearly a hundred people in the last couple years. I see the degree as informational on the resume and I rarely give it any weight.
Btw, some of the best technology people I have worked next to came from Devry. I don’t know why Devry has such a bad rep but the people I have come across have been quality. One of the worst IT guys, and I mean flat out bad, had a Harvard degree. There are crap “universities” out there though. ITT and PCI come to mind. I had a candidate with an AS in CS from PCI that couldn’t name an operating system!? Also, I found a local college that offered adult learning that included transfers from a local community college. The degree plan also included credits for working on industry certifications. That made college a little less painful and allowed me to add more “value” to my resume even before my degree was completed.
Another thing. When I was younger I had a lot of pride in having been so accomplished without a degree. I now have just as much pride in having obtained a degree and improving my options for providing for my family.
I wish you well in your quest
While it is a little pricey, UMUC (which started out as the distance education branch of UM College Park) has some good teachers and a great Computer and Information Science Program. Comparing notes with the local "State College" the classes are harder and regardless of an percieved online stigma, I am proud of my education. Full Disclaimer, I still have 8 classes to go until graduation. CJ
"Chance favors the prepared mind." ~Me
Who needs employers? Just compete against them. Infiltrate and industry, learn how it works, then launch your own competing business. Read "How to Get Rich" by Felix Dennis and "Screw It, Let's Do It," by Richard Branson.
I've hired graduates of both. Other than the fact that they are all up to their eyes in debt they were all competent individuals that were able to complete the work required. When we're bringing on devs we go to tech trade schools first now.
That said, you're already working in the industry and have experience and skills. From a hiring standpoint, I think a CS degree would be a waste of time. I would focus your energies on a business degree with an IT focus. As a senior dev, your next move is going to be into management. Unless your company has a great management training program (most no longer do) you should focus on the education needed to make that move.
I have learned the hard way as well. What have I found out about those 95% of the companies? They are all corrupt, every single one of them. It is the 5% that matters. Any non-corrupt company looks at both history/experience and education and will have no problem hiring based on experience.
Lots of companies refuse to pay for training, because lots of people would just skill up and leave.
Besides, private business is self-interested and cheap -- they expect either you, the government, or foreign governments (through dumping of highly-skilled immigrants) to pay for the skills they require.
DePaul University in Chicago has a great online program, just completed a Masters in Software Engineering. You can do it entirely online, had classmates from Minnesota and Wisconsin. They also have game development, human interface and a bioinformatics curriculum. One of the largest IT schools in the US.
While most of my CS knowledge is self taught, the coursework will drag you into areas where you would not normally go, which broadens your education in the field and turns out to be surprisingly useful.
Corporations aren't inherently evil ;) but from the practical side, usually the tuition payback is spread out over a few years, or is done like a signing bonus where you pay it back if you leave within a certain period of time.
If you are leaving early and are supposed to pay back a tuition reimbursement ask the HR folks to waive the requirement to repay. They may agree to do so. Get their answer on paper, if email print it out with full headers shown.
It does not hurt to ask. I've been pleasantly surprised and received such a waiver.
Franklin University in Columbus, OH has a good CS program, and you can do the whole thing online.
I'm sure this has been said by many, but with your experience I wouldn't bother with the degree. There are plenty of developers in my company without a college degree, or with an entirely irrelevant one (marketing, for instance). If you've demonstrated quality work at another company your lack of degree shouldn't be an issue.
you have to assume that corporations ARE inherently evil. At any time, you can get an evil boss to make it so. Assuming evil is always safe since you don't know what you are going to get. dealing with actual people is a different story. we used to have a great CEO, who really cared. Now, all he cares about is short term gains and firing people. not the company i originally signed on to.
Every company I have ever worked for, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, has had programs in place to pay for employees who wanted to advance their education.
Every company I have ever worked for, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, has had programs in place to give flexible work hours for employees who needed to attend classes during the day. In North Texas, several companies had gotten together with the local graduate schools in engineering and science, and set up a private closed-circuit television network, so that employees could attend lectures without leaving the plant.
Admittedly, these have all been high-technology companies that intended to be around for a while, that intended to grow, that understand IN DETAIL how important it is to have well-educated employees.
If your company doesn't do this, you REALLY should reconsider whether you are working for the right company. If you own the company and you don't do this, you REALLY should reconsider the message you are sending your employees.
AND THERE'S THIS: Companies that treat their employees well, who invest in their well-being and their future, tend to have much lower turnover than companies that don't.
I just finished my university studies while also working full time, but my situation is still quite different I think. I defended my CS PhD a couple weeks ago in the US where I also work full time as a software engineer. I had a math degree from my (non-US) home country, which was/is not properly recognized. (Should be M.S. equivalent, but there are arrogant and ignorant administrators in the US. Meanwhile my opinion (that I refrained to yell to them) is that the US B. S degree is equivalent to an above average high school diploma from my home country.) So for me it was important to get a US diploma.
Work and school took very long time for me and also for others I met in the same boat. I did it because I actually like doing research and plan to keep doing it. (My software engineering job is math oriented and it is full of interesting problems like compression, boolean optimization, graph partitioning, etc.)
Here is my take: getting a B.S. in CS may help you on paper, but I doubt it will matter much more than 5 years experience and you will not learn much new useful skills getting it. Getting an M.S will take a longer while, will help you much better on paper, but you should consider finances and family situation closely. Are you sure you need a CS degree? I have many coworkers with math or physics or engineering degrees. Any other direction you may consider? Like business and marketing? Augmented with knowledge of software engineering that may triple its value.
If you intend to stick to programming for life, I would also suggest (that you consider) getting involved in some open source projects (with your company's approval) that may look quite good on your resume and offset lack of formal training and may help with networking too.
University of Illinois at Springfield
Computer Science Bachelors of Science, two emphasis Computer Security or Software Engineering..
Many community colleges offer night classes sufficient to get you an AA. Once you've finished your AA, you can transfer to a reputable 4-year school with an online CS program, like Florida State or U of Illinois.
Source: I completed an AA at a community college while working full-time as a developer/sysadmin. I am currently enrolled in the online CS program at FSU part time while continuing to work full-time.
Only if there is no opportunity for promotion or advancement. I have absolutely no desire to leave my current company unless I have to. I admit, if they let you take a degree and then keep you doing grunt work, they're probably shooting themselves in the foot.
But also be aware that as a benefit paid out, the company probably pays less taxes on what they disburse, and there may even be programs in some places which make it even slightly profitable for them to offer tuition reimbursement.
Finally, at this point, your more motivated individuals are probably going to be those who take advantage of the classes while working. Those sorts of people will look for training and educational opportunities in prospective employers, so even in a tough economy, having the option there is probably a good idea for maintaining a staff of the more motivated people out there, even if you want fewer of them overall.
I completed my associates degree in Computer Information systems while working about 10 years ago. I now have over 13 years of experience, and am completing my BS. I am going to a local state university that has a great CS program and offers many classes in the evenings. They accepted all of my previous coursework, and I now have about 3 years left at 2 classes a semester.
I want to say that the people telling you that a degree "doesn't matter" once you have experience and are offering up their personal, anecdotal evidence of continuous employment, are missing something obvious: They have no idea what employers never considered them due to lack of degree. I have a great job at a great company that cares mostly about experience. But I have seen some development at companies which not only want a BS, but want one in a hard (read: requires calculus) science such as Math, physics or CS. These jobs are involved in scientific work. I'm not saying I or you would want this job, but I fail to see how having additional options would somehow be a bad thing.
Different companies are different. Some may be "enlightened" enough to consider experience as equivalent to education. However, some companies are very arbitrary in their requirements and may not even call you if you have no degree. I think a degree opens up additional opportunities, and if you are competing against someone who is similarly qualified and not degree it can give you an edge.
Besides, if education is equivalent to experiences, working and getting your degree at the same time lets you get more "years" of experience than working alone. If you got your degree part time in 4 years, you'd have "8 years of experience" to show for it!
Oh and by the way, the knowledge itself is worth something. I just finished a course in Turing machines, computability, automata, decidability and so on. While many would say this is not "practical" knowledge, the course very much changed my way about thinking about computation and minimalism that has directly impacted my coding. Just because you don't constract DFAs every day doesn't mean that classes in how to use API X are somehow "better" then all that theory people seem to deride.
But the guy has the skill set and experience already. The majority of programmers started when they were very young and continued into their adult hood. College can't really teach programming. Programming takes time and effort, trials and errors. This country has relinquished real skill sets with a bullshit snobbish paper that says BCS on it. Colleges are corporations making money nothing more so don't waste your money or energy. I know people who knew very little about computers, networking, programming and yet they bullshitted their way into these kinds of jobs with high pay because they had a college degree while people with these skill sets but no degree had a hard time finding jobs but when they did their salaries were $30k-$33k.
BS CS programs typically make no accommodations for students working full time. There may be the odd class at 6pm but that has more to do with scheduling professors than anything else.
If your work will let you juggle your hours around a little so that you can take a class during the day and make up that time early morning, evening or weekends then you may be able to pull it off. The trick is to take as many general ed classes as you can at night. Junior colleges are especially helpful in this regard, just make sure the classes are fully transferable, double-check with the 4-year school. And of course keep an eye out for the occasional 6pm CS class.
Its tricky but if work, the 4-year and the JC are in relatively close proximity and if work can be a little flexible with hours two or three days a week it is plausible.
As long as the online school is accredited from its regional accreditation board, then you should have no fear in attending. This goes for the online, for-profit schools.
I dropped out of college in the middle of my senior year of getting a BA in Music Education to pursue a tech opportunity. Once I settled in to that job, I went back to one of these for-profit colleges to complete a BFA in Visual Communications degree. They let me transfer over most of my credits, so all I had was a year or so of major classes to complete. Before I enrolled, I make sure it was accredited by the regional board.
So while American InterContinental University may not look sexy (and in fact, I find it slightly embarrassing), it is accredited, and I did graduate Summa Cum Laude with a BFA in Visual Communications. It cost me a ton of money (much more than the not for profit schools), but I can put it on my resume with confidence that I am not going to be screened out of a job because of a lack of a degree.
And I know this for a fact because I just got a new job at a local software company. And made it to the final stretch with another software company at the same time. Neither company even asked if AIU was legit, probably because the HR manager doesn't really care. "Education listed? Check. Degree obtained? Check. Moving on..."
The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
I'm doing a part time degree at Birkbeck now, don't know if there's anything similar in the states, but they're a well respected establishment here
Employers have only themselves to blame for the "shortage". They reject perfectly good candidates out of hand, for the craziest subjective non-reasons, then complain there's a shortage. They have weird ideas about the extraneous qualities they think they want. Like, why is age discrimination rampant? They believe young coders are more easily bullied into working longer hours, and will take less pay. If they want to reject a programmer for being too old, they make up some other bullcrap excuse why, or don't even bother with that. They also desire what they call "loyalty" (while showing no loyalty themselves towards their employees), which really means they want the candidate who is not a "flight risk". They want a candidate within a "good" range of debt and desperation-- not so much that he will steal from the company, but not so little that he can afford to walk away. Evaluating that aspect of a person is very difficult, since they're not supposed to do that at all so they can't outright ask for the information they want. However, credit scores certainly help with that.
Employers are terrible at evaluating candidates. Can't tell a good programmer from a smooth talking bullshit artist. Nor, on the more subjective criteria, are they much good at telling the crazies apart from the merely desperate. The best they can do is hit prospects with a test on trivia about a particular language, the sort of stuff you shouldn't memorize but should look up in a reference. Quick, name all the reserved words in C++! If you can't do it, then you must not be an expert C++ programmer. If you try to explain why knowing that is not important, then you get that question "wrong", and are tagged as a BS artist to boot. I've had a so-called technical interview end after just 1 trivia question. They refuse to allow any time for training, demanding that new hires "hit the ground running". Candidates are expected to train themselves at their own expense beforehand.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
I'm getting my CS degree from them right now, while working full-time. It's not great for learning, but if you already know how to program, you can definitely check the box there (and probably get a 4.0 to boot).
Almost every place I worked as an employee, has offered tuition benefits. The reality is that many of the companies dropped the students before they dropped the company simply due to cut backs. It is a little weird to see the person that they just paid for a MS for be laid off or otherwise encouraged to leave.
On the other hand, it can also be a form of hidden retention bonus, since if you leave the company before a certain period of time, most companies usually expect you to repay them. That usually means that those people do actually tend to stay longer than you might expect in a tech employment situation.
Sounds like you're doing quite well already, in a large org, with a nice title. Not that titles mean a whole lot. But if you approach another company with the experience you seem to have gained already, I don't think your education is going to be high on the list of interview topics.
If you start double-punishing yourself with school, you risk fucking up your work performance and that WILL reflect on you. Unless your current job is a real shit hole, stick it out for another two or three years and then start poking around. See if you can climb any higher at your current place, too.
You're 26 and have a "Senior Software Engineer" title. I say your whole body is well inside the door by now, not just your foot. Don't worry so much.
if you already have a job as a programmer why pursue CS degree? Try something different, like a degree in engineering, biology, chemistry, math, physics, sociology, history, language etc. It all comes down to ability to understand, formulate, and solve problems and it's always good to have perspective from different angles. Furthermore education should not be way to better job and higher pay but to way of furthering yourself as a person. It goes a long way to free yourself from the tyranny of corporate slavery to reduce consumption, to live below your mean, and to find enjoyment from things that are not store bought.
They are a regionally accredited school, and have a generous transfer policy. They also award credits from courses taken/completed at aleks.com, and straighterline.com
http://www.tesc.edu/heavin/ba/Computer-Science.cfm
Most companies are heavily padded with layers of management who are very comfortable with employees who stay and never learn anything new. Innovators and learners are troublemakers.
The risk to many managers is the employee who continues learning, without leaving.
Yes, I work for a GM (government motors) OEM.
Undergrad, you're correct.
However, graduate engineering and business schools in particular are much more forgiving of job schedules, as there is a significantly higher number of people working jobs in those fields who are also looking for the Master's degree (MS, MBA) in particular.
I think one of the University of Illinois campuses does a CS degree completion, though you need some courses completed before coming in. University of Massachusetts at Lowell does an IT degree online, which is obviously not the same as CS, but you can take several computer science courses and it will get you a Bachelor's same as if you attended the school; it is not an 'Online' degree and there is no differentiation. I traveled a lot at the time so attending on campus was not an option. I was literally writing papers in airports and taking tests in hotels. I did 9-12 credits a semester like this for 2.5 years to finish up. It was pure hell, and I was a grumpy bastard since all I did is work, school, sleep, rinse, repeat, but it is worth it.
If companies want higher skill levels, they outsource or get in H-1Bs, who are usually a tier ahead when it comes to knowledge in the field. Why pay for someone's schooling when one can get someone from abroad who is far more educated in the first place?
I am posting anonymously since I too have no degree but am working in a large software development environment. I have always been completely honest about my lack of degree, but I am pretty sure that if I had not "snuck in" as a contractor first I would not have the job I do now. Once I was in, then my skills became more importatnt, but it was a tough slog.
The point I wanted to make is that in most cases the degree is mostly to get your resume past the HR screeners/recruiters. Even in technology-centric places like silicon valley the recruiters (even for the big names) don't really know how to screen for tech skills properly. Add in that they are awash in resumes and they start to grab for lifelines, and the first on they find is the degree. They can't evaluate your coding accomplishments, so they substitute evaluating the school's reputation instead. Stupid on the surface of it, but it is the best they can do.
So your goal is to somehow bypass the first screening and get your resume in the hands of the hiring manager (who can evalute your technical skills). Beyond the contractor route (fairly random, and you really have to get lucky), the best route is probably to try to impress one of the workers at the company with your work, and get them to recommend you for a job. That usually will get you past the inital screen. Note that this only gets you the interview, you still have to get the job yourself.
There are 3 great, relatively inexpensive online colleges that are regionally (RA, gold standard) accredited. All work can be done at night and weekends. No residencies.
Excelsior College
TESC - Thomas Edison State College
COSC - Charter Oak State College
from wiki -
"Excelsior College is one of several regionally accredited colleges operating on a model similar to Thomas Edison State College in New Jersey, and Charter Oak State College in Connecticut referred to in distance learning circles as The Big Three."
Sure, but that doesn't help this guy or people like him who are working toward their undergraduate degrees.
Dear AC who submitted this:
Google is useful for this kind of stuff. I found program listings from Oregon State, University of Illinois-Springfield, and MANY others.
Online baccalaureate programs. Several with the option to complete in as little as 1-3 years depending on your ability. And yes, real programs with real degrees, not just those hokey certificates from Coursera or the like.
No offense, but you're a Senior Software Engineer and didn't use at least a Google search first?
Oh my.
@Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
I found myself in a very similar situation to you, albeit I am somewhat older. I started programming on mainframes and learned C++ and business analysis 'on the job'. For years all was fine, but as more companies switched over to online application forms I started running into problems with the check box asking if I had a college degree. I asked advice from an ex-HR director and he suggested I get myself into a degree program, click the box 'yes' and note on my resume that my degree is pending.
Excelsior college (www.excelsior.edu) is online has a very good reputation for both adult learners and military personnel. It is very flexible with the number and type of credits that you can transfer in, and will work with you create a study plan. This flexibility allows you to attend community college classes in person that you feel will benefit you, and take online classes or test out on other subjects.
I have found that the older you get the less recruiters and hiring managers are interested in your degree, and the more they are interested they are in your work experience and your people skills.
Rather than doing an undergraduate degree, why not look at a Masters? You have experience, and the open university offer distance diplomas that then give you access to Masters courses. Open University - open.ac.uk
try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die
I am a distinguished engineer at IBM, 38 years old and have no college degree. I make what most people would consider a silly amount of money, get to work on some very interesting projects and honestly, most of the time when we hire in kids with CS degrees we spend at least a year teaching them how to actually write code, work with analysts, understand how to refine requirements and just generally not be dumb.
Having a degree in this field proves very little to me, and in fact most of the best people I have worked with are self taught. They might have a degree in some other area, but very few good coders will ever make it out of the bullshit that is a computer science department.
What prevents him from simply getting a BSc and leaving for another company with more pay?
Also, it's somewhat strange that the company should make an investment in his level of education, and yet the return will go to him (I'm sure he would expect a higher salary).
First executive, ""What happens if they all upgrade their skills and leave?"
Second executive, "What if they don't, and they stay?"
I was in a similar situation in 2008. I had about five years of experience but when the economy started to tank it was harder for myself and some friends to find employment without a degree (wasn't a problem in the early 2000s). I already had over 60 transferrable credits at a community college from before I left college for a good job offer, but could not find any place to finish a CS degree while working full time.
So I decided to go the online route. But I knew that UoP or Devry would be looked down on, so I needed to get my Masters as well. Plenty of colleges have great night MS programs in CS. I am in my last year at DePaul right now, and once I am finished I will not even list my Bachelor's degree on my resume.
But even my UoP degree opened doors. I obtained a job at a Fortune 100 company, and my boss told me that HR would have never even let her see my resume if I didn't have a degree. I am now a senior developer making twice what I did in 2008, and I still haven't finished my Masters to clear the stench of UoP off my resume.
You just have to be honest with yourself about what you actually want. If you want an education, buy a book (seriously, you could buy about 50 quality books for the cost of a single university class). No college course, even in my Master's program, can compete with reading a book like Code Complete or Head First Design Patterns. But if you want credentials, online schools still give you that.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Western Governor's University is an online school which is a state school in at least twenty states. So like University of Texas, UC, and other state schools, it's quite reputable and the cost is lower than private schools, if you're a resident of one of the sponsoring states. They offer several IT degrees.
I got a masters in CS from scratch (started with a BA in Psychology) while working full time. The University of Texas at Dallas had a fantastic commuter program, enabling me to take all of my courses at night. I did it when I was about your age, too. So go for it. The worst you can do is not try.
Ignoring career potential, college can be a great environment to meet similar minded interesting people. CS courses are generally devoid of women, but math classes are not so bad.
I was in a very similar situation 7-8 years ago, and I had to do school during the day like all the other non-working students. Basically my employer allowed me to work 40hrs/wk whenever I could fit them in. So each semester, I would register for the classes I needed, then look at Monday-Saturday from 7 AM until 8 PM and when I wasn't at school, I was at work. I would submit this schedule to my employer just as soon as I had it, and I maintained my regular workload at work, just working odd hours. Yes, the employer paid for all the schooling, as well. I also did 15 credits per semester, 3 semesters a year, so I could finish quickly and get a big raise, which I did.
So it is possible, and you'll be very glad you did it.
Also, as a programmer who was "self-taught" I would definitely say that school was worth it, from a work perspective. I know guys who say its just a bunch of hoops that you have to jump through because of "the system." This is largely true, but I definitely felt by the end that the formal education was 100% a benefit for me, coming from the script-kiddie, get-the-job-done mentality.
"Greedy corporations don't care about their employees" is a politically driven world view politicians feed you when they are trying to get your vote. It has no relevance to the real world, where most companies have tuition reimbursement, training programs, etc. The company I work for has an array of programs. Even the burger joint I started at, Sonic Drive-In, sent employees to the local community college to learn some math, reading and writing more clearly, etc. when needed.
I'm 26 as well currently attending a UC as a junior.I've been taking 16 units and have been able to work about 15 hours a week and still managed to get all A's.Ive chosen to focus on school right now. Since I can draw on my work experience, I probably study a couple of hours at most for each test and homework assignments are easy.Most universities will make you petition for a deficient load if you take less than 12 units, but it may be possible to get units for working.A flexible work schedule is necessary because clases will be offered at times that might not be convenient.Make sure you fill out FAFSA even if you think you won't qualify for financial aid. It might help you get a scholarship.
and do you have kids? I was nearly in the identical situation to yours...30 years ago...though luckier to have Northeastern U. programs available and a Masters CS degree program in evening division of Boston U....but that was not enough. The realities of family life include MUCH less "free" time than a bachelor with a job can devote to studies. I racked up 22 credits...most of a MS CS degree but just could not get it done in the time required...even though my employers were reimbursing my tuition.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
5 years is a good time span at any one company, anything over 2 years looks great on a resume. My personal experience was that nobody mentioned my degree after my first job, networking is far more important than a degree. Networking is also more important than kissing management butt to claw your way up the chain of command. When your co-workers like you personally and respect your work ethic in addition to you skills then you will eventually old buddies regularly calling you to see if you have any interest in a new position. Jumping ship becomes a matter of deciding when the time has come to try something different for more money.
Vonnegut was right: Of all the words of mice and men, the saddest are, "It might have been."
Go for a professional masters degree. Some universities will take your work experience as good enough to enroll in a professional masters, maybe with extra courses first. The designation varies from country to country, usually it's called a Master of Arts in IT or CS. Think MBA for IT.
Undergrad especially in STEM isn't usually setup for full time during the day people. Since your company is suggesting it, do they have a plan? They may not since this isn't the most common. The suggestion of working in classes during the day part time and keep working sometimes into the late hours is about the best. I first have a BS in EE, then went back for a BS in CS. The second one was completely on my own, I quit working and did it full time. It took three years, but that was due to not needing to retake the previous completed non-core classes and having opportunities for internships. So yes it may take a while taking say 2 at a time, but if you think you have a secure job, well some worth while things just take a while. When you are done you have a degree for other jobs should your current job not work after a while. More significantly if you should be laid off, you will already be on your way to completely your degree. If are laid off without, you might be decide you need a degree, but obviously will be take longer as a unemployed student. Sounds like the company is actually being very nice, not helping you at all means they can pay less and give you less opportunities elsewhere.
This is what I'm doing. This process is designed for people who are working full time. It's lots of work that eats most of my free time. I will graduate from the diploma in the summer.
http://www.bcit.ca/cas/computingparttime/credentials/ladder.shtml
Laddered Computing Credentials: The programs all begin with Associate Certificates, which are smaller and manageable credentials. On the path to the Diploma and Degree there are two Associate Certificates:
- Applied Software Development (ASD) (http://www.bcit.ca/study/programs/6958acert)
- Applied Computer Information Systems (ACIS) (http://www.bcit.ca/study/programs/6992acert)
These first two credentials may be completed simultaneously in two years part time, by taking multiple courses per term. You have a maximum of 5 years to complete each of these credentials:
The next three steps in the ladder are:
- Certificate of Technology (COT) - encompasses the Associate Certificates. (http://www.bcit.ca/study/programs/5500certt)
- Diploma (CST) - is built on top of the COT. (http://www.bcit.ca/study/programs/5500pdiplt)
Bachelor's Degree - is built on top of the CST Diploma. (http://www.bcit.ca/study/programs/cstbtechpts or http://www.bcit.ca/study/programs/8350btech)
After completing the Certificate of Technology (COT) in part-time studies, you may apply to finish the CST Diploma full time, or continue in part-time.
The Bachelor of Technology Degree may also be completed in full time or part-time delivery options.
Then the MBA (http://beedie.sfu.ca/mot/) by this point I should be ready to retire.
We have programming test as part of our interview process and we do training in one of the hottest highest paying Web Content Management systems as well as for two of the hottest up and coming eCommerce platforms. We do not care about age; as far as working people to death we can only bill 40 hours a week to our clients so there isn't much of a point in working much more than that. Creating turn over to get more hours is not going to make us any more money. We are a cross between a body shop in denial and a company attempting to do project work.
I am trying to figure out who these people work for that are ruthless employers. Everyone I know that works in IT have very cushy jobs, work flexible hours and many are single wage earners leaving their spouse (male of female) to raise children. They do work very hard though. Cushy and hard work at not polar opposites in my opinion. Many of these employees are life style first kind of people, meaning they put fun and personal time above work; and it works just fine.
As far as smooth talking, this is the same in all industries. How do you pick a great new attorney our of college to join your firm? Look at some grades, look at some law review articles and see if you like them. For an IT professional that would equate to having some kind of quality internship, nifty side project, half ass mobile app or any app on any platform to show off. Bring some code to the interview, that would be cool. I often ask if they are willing to send me something.
I must not be working in the same geographic job market.
I like to think of IT like being a mechanic. If you look at the shops that do mechanical work on cars the quality and pay for their employees ranges. Those guys and gals get paid well in many situations. What I have noticed is they are often the same level of unhappy as IT employees. The reality is most employees are just as unhappy and disgruntled across all fields and pay ranges.
I would recomend you do CS anyway, whether working fulltime or not. If you could call the attention of someone with your programming skills, go for it, you deserve a CS degree.
But don't put yourself in a position of looking for a senior position job after spending one year in a support position. You would be very embarrassed on interviews with a real senior software engineers, unless you are a genius and during your one year support work you understood a lot of problems that only years of work could teach you.
Give yourself a favour and look for a decent company to work for, but don't give up of your CS degree.
I am a non-degreed engineer with the position of "Senior Systems Engineer" for a tier-one mobile phone company. I am a full member of the IEEE (my competence attested to by PhD CS engineers and former university professors), and a director of an IEEE affinity group in the Chicago area. In this field, it is more of "what can you do for us" vs. "what certs/degrees do you have". So, I think that you should not waste your time with certs, but better to prove that you are just the person your company (or others) need to accomplish their technology goals. This is just my opinion... :-)
JHU has an online program for exactly the use cae you're describing: http://ep.jhu.edu/
Decent program, can get the whole degree online, and it's obviously a well known institute.
If you are an excellent programmer (and it sounds like you are), then you should have no trouble at all with about 10-15% of a Computer Science undergraduate curriculum. The "95%" of companies you refer to who would not hire you know this. Furthermore, your reason for wanting a college degree is pretty shallow, so good luck getting into a "proper" college.
And speaking of scam colleges, what makes them scams is that (a) it is possible to get a degree from them without learning anything, (b) they don't care if you do, and (c) if you actually want to learn something, they can't or won't help you. By at least (a) and (b), many fully accredited, public universities qualify as "scam" colleges. I work every day with their alumni. "Proper" colleges often differ only with respect to (c).
Ask yourself instead:
Where can I avail myself of the knowledge I seek?
What can I do to take personal responsibility for obtaining it?
Why should a "proper" college that can help me bother to do so?
And yet he thinks paid is spelled payed? I'd fire you just for that as I'm sure you spell like the current generation in all words. There for their, etc.
It took a few extra years. And you end up taking courses based on schedule rather than what interests you. Honestly, being that busy is not a good way to learn but it can be done.
Near the end, I had required classes which were not given in the evening (these were typically science classes w/lab sessions). By then I was working as a contractor and I would work summer and a semester, then quit working and attend classes for a semester. This allowed me to stay enrolled and not starve.
When I graduated I already had a great resume and zero debt.
My personal experience is that once you have 4 years of working experience and can demonstrate proficiency in the technologies you need to know to get your job done, you shouldn't have any problems. The scary part is that you may actually make out better than the people spending money at the schools, for example: I work for a government contractor near a university, where I am considered a "senior-level" developer with a very nice salary for that title. There was a discussion a couple of weeks ago of bringing on some post-doctorate students from the university, who will work for $15 an hour. That to me proves how valuable experience is in a field like software development, where there's an element of science but it's really more of a craft. If you want to ensure job security, your best bet is to find a technology with a high demand by companies, and a low supply of people skilled in it; They won't care about the degree because they will just be happy to have found someone qualified; SharePoint is one that comes to mind because I see a lot of postings for it, but a lot of developers even in Microsoft circles won't touch it with a ten-foot poll.
I'm in my late 20's and I'm currently working towards a CS degree while working full time in the field. I'm also married. I don't have the luxury of a tertiary education provider near my town and I managed to find a reputable university that would allow me to complete a CS degree entirely via distance (extramural) study.
So yes, it's entirely possible and also quite interesting (at least for me). It is, however, very hard work. In fact don't count on any spare time at all. Even some of the 'easier' papers still take time commitment to ensure that you provide answers or results that expected rather than just what you already know.
The extra ~$5K per year tuition was made up for by the fact I didn't have to commute 45 minutes each way to class several times a week. I already had 15 years experience, so the diploma was far more important than the school. Frankly, I wouldn't have had the time to finish at a brick-and-mortar school - I finished several of my courses while on assignment in Asia. This would have been impossible at a typical classroom. And some of my colleagues tell me UoPhx has the best online classroom technology. All-in-all, I would recommend online learning over classroom learning for any busy professional. At least you'll be able to finish, and you'll still be able to squeeze in some time for family life.
That's basically the story of my entry into the software development game - probably at the same company, given that there are only so many places of similar size. I'm 40 now and have held a number of high profile positions over the last 16 years and my lack of a degree has never been an issue - though I did at least take several years of university CS classes before getting hired into that first job and dropping out. Frankly, my lack of a degree is only likely to ever be an issue at the kinds of companies I wouldn't want to work at, anyway. If you're good enough to have done what you've done without the educational credentials, you aren't going to have difficulties in the job market - odds are good you've got the reputation of being the sharpest engineer on your team, already.
At some point, I simply stopped listing an education section on my resume at all, letting my work history speak for itself - since that was far more impressive than "studied 3 years of a BS in CS at a not very impressive university". I'm sure people just assume that I have a CS degree and fail to notice the omission. The reality is that the kind of self-education and drive necessary to excel enough to be noticed and invited to cross from support into development is pretty rare. It signals either an extraordinary developer or an extraordinarily observant development manager - probably both. If I see a resume like that, it will actually cause me to take a closer look precisely because it is people who can do that who can make a huge difference on a project. I look explicitly for those personalities and consider it a far greater asset than a degree.
But also bear in mind that knowing programming language syntax does not a software engineer make. The point of a CS education is to allow you to learn all of the lessons that the engineers who came before you have already learned - algorithms, data structures, operating system internals, electrical engineering, etc. There's no reason to think you have to pay a bunch of money to a university in order to acquire that knowledge (if I don't miss my guess, someone like you is all too likely to move too fast to actually benefit from classes - you're going to wind up self-educating even at university. That was my experience, anyway, and the experience of most everyone I've respected in my career). Get referrals to relevant textbooks (just read the course catalog of a good university for recommendations) and then actually read and understand them.
Good software engineering is as much art as it is science, and they don't really teach the art at universities - despite the title of Knuth's masterpiece, you can't actually acquire the art without just writing (and debugging!) many, many hundreds of thousands of lines of code - something that only happens in the workplace. I'd rather hire someone with the difficult-to-teach artistic credentials and educate them with the relatively easy to teach science than the other way around. And this is borne out by the many ph.d student interns I've managed over the years, most of whom couldn't code their way out of a paper bag. Don't get me wrong, there's often a place for the knowledge of mathematics and algorithms that ph.d's can bring to a project, but it isn't as software systems architect or lead developer.
The one caveat - the lack of an undergraduate degree will prevent you from pursuing a graduate degree, whether in CS, an MBA, or something completely unrelated to your current career. Going back to undergraduate education as a 40+ year old is a really unpleasant prospect that seems more unpleasant with every passing year. I wish I had taken the time to finish my degree some time in my 20s simply because I have so much more going on in my life in my 40s and I'd rather skip the extra couple of years of useless undergrad education that I'll have to pursue if I ever want to get a masters degree in anything else. And the price of education keeps going up. It would have been a whole lot cheaper to finish up 10-15 years ago, too.
T
Can we stop calling programmers engineers? Unless you've studied engineering, from an actual engineering faculty, you cannot call yourself and engineer. Period. Software engineering requires the knowledge of the actual sciences. If you write software for, say, robotics, for example - good. If you write generic software, sorry, not an engineer. Engineering requires a license in order to practice.
Florida State University has a fully online computer science program (I used to teach the Java class a long time ago - it's legit). I would say that it's still better to attend classes in person, as you will have more choice in the classes you can take - the online options are limited. But this is a great option for someone who still needs to work full time, and there is no difference in the degree that says it was online vs. in-person. The only thing that is some trouble is that some professors will require you to get your exams proctored at an approved assessment and teaching center. http://distance.fsu.edu/
"I am payed well considering " ...that I can't spel to gud?
However, experience is worth mote than a degree. I have both.
I don't know where you live, but here in Massachusetts there are LOTS of colleges that offer degrees at night. Here's a few off the top of my head...
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
Once you have that 'or equivalent' it doesn't matter. I never did cobble together a degree despite several years of college (changed majors a lot). I've held jobs that 'required' everything from a BS in CS to MIS and/or an MBA. Nobody ever asked questions.
Of course they didn't. Employers seldom interview applicants if they have issues with their credentials. The resume is simply tossed in the round file. Before concluding that it doesn't matter, you need to consider the employers that declined to give your an interview or even to respond to your application.
Lots of companies refuse to pay for training, because lots of people would just skill up and leave.
You're missing the point that in that case a lot of people will look for a job where there are tuition benefits.
Highly skilled, motivated people are both more likely to want continuing education, and to be able to find a job somewhere else.
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
"I started looking into local community colleges and universities, and much to my dismay, they offer neither nighttime or online courses for computer science."
I don't know where you live, but I would look into this more. I am not sure what you mean exactly either. Do you mean no local colleges have a computer science course where all classes are 100% at night or on weekends? Or that all classes are during the day on weekdays?
I would take a second look at your local community colleges and colleges and universities. They don't have any night or weekend courses? Also, how local is your definition of local? Let's say there was a college 50 miles from you where you could graduate doing weekend courses - that would be an option - you could drive an hour on a weekend afternoon, take a class, and drive back. My college is nearby, but I know people who commute a long way to get to it.
I would map out colleges and universities by distance from you, then see which ones have a CS program. Then go through their class requirements for a CS Bachelors, and see what prerequisites for each class are (some 300 level classes I took had nine prerequisite classes). Then see when classes are offered. My experience has been the initial level 100 math and CS classes tend to have more schedule flexibility (i.e. more classes are offered at more times) then some of the required 300 level classes. You may be able to get half your credits on nights or weekends before having to worry about a required 200 or 300 level class which is only offered during the week in the daytime.
I would start with one class a semester and see how that goes. If you think you can do two classes a semester and full-time work, try that after seeing how the one goes.
In 2006, I went back to school to get a Bachelors in CS, starting with night and weekend classes. Initially, one of the larger reasons for taking the classes was so that I could show potential employers that I have a Bachelors. This kind of thinking has receded as I have learned more CS and have gotten better at programming. For example, I have a side project where I write Android apps - so far this month I've made $1100 on my Android apps. I would have never have been able to do this if I hadn't learned about algorithms, data structures, Java, and so forth at college. So my thinking now is a little bit less, I need a piece of paper that I can show someone else when I need a job, and is more, what can I do with this knowledge I have gained?
... and I could feel that my opportunities were limited without a degree. Every time I would apply for a job, the lack of a degree would come up. I was studying part time and trying to slowly complete my degree. My company was also covering the cost just like yours. I was also in my 20's at the time. In summary, I was in the very same situation you are in.
I believe you are doing the right thing by steering away from schools like Devry and University of Phoenix. if you are going to put the effort into getting a degree, make sure that you get a reputable degree. You may in the future feel interested in pursuing a Master's degree and a 3-year bachelor's degree won't cut it. So I think you are doing the right thing.
Well... in my case, this is what I did: I completed the first two years of the CS program while I was working full time. During this time, I also saved quite a bit. By the time I turned 28, I quit my job and moved to Canada to complete my degree there. The schools were much cheaper in Canada and at the time the US dollar was much stronger than the Canadian dollar (not any longer though). Overall, I was able to easily afford the last two years of my degree in Canada with the money I had saved. You can probably find a great CS program in your local state university as well. I was able to do all of this without incurring any debt because I had saved in order to support myself for these two years.
Personally, looking back, I think this was the best thing I ever did. I wish I had done it sooner. Your life will only get more complicated from now on. Wife... kids... mortgage ... etc. This is the time to do it. Yes, I was nervous taking the plunge and quitting a good job but today I make more than I used to and I am much happier now. Also... having the experience of studying full time was great! I had a great time, I made many friends and I learned a lot by volunteering at some of the research labs at my university. It was a great experience and I have no regrets. You will also find that there will be opportunities for you to work on campus and make some extra money. I know it is hard to quit a good job but you are still young and this is the time to take risk. The older you get, things will only get more difficult. So my advice to you is: Save some money, quit your job, and complete your degree as a full time student.
I did it when I was about your age, but I had a friendly employer who let me take "flex" time off to attend classes. This was back in the mid seventies of last century however.
9/11 Eyewitnesses to Explosive WTC Demolition 1 of 2
You'd get way more payback putting that good energy into a very visible open source project, like LibreOffice. You'd meet people who are more interested in results than union cards, and through those connections you would have more work than you can do for the rest of your life. The basic pattern at universities is to teach teachers who then work at universities. It's a terrible, pernicious virus. The cognitive dissonance people are thrust into when they realize just how worthless this piece of paper is drives them to assign disproportionate importance to it. You don't want to work with those people, because by in large they are pinheads.
@the guy who magically doubled his pay with a degree. I can only wonder how little you must have been making before hand. In my experience degree has very little to do with pay in the real world. I didn't even graduate from high school, and I have been making 6 figures a year since the mid 90's.
I got an offer once to go work at the Ames Research center - to do compiler design for a multi processor system. I got the offer from the senior scientist after a conversation about how compression works at a cocktail party. I went all the way through the employee process and then suddenly they realized I had no degree. The HR dept. refused to hire me. So the sr scientist brought me in as a consultant instead.
Think about a degree as a union card. There are some doors you cannot get through without it. On the other hand, if you can actually do anything, you will never lack for interesting well paid work and good smart people will always open doors for you. A degree is a lame excuse for actually producing something real.
Mediocre developers go to school to get prepared to write software. Good developers just cut to the chase and write the software.
I'm in boston, have no degree, and generally get offers within 2-4 days of starting to look for job. Last time, I got something like 5 offer in 5 interviews, in about 4 days, all 6 figures.
One of my friend was a designer who decided to learn C# in his spare time...eventually got the bite for programming, decided to go look for junior positions. He was able to get several offers in about 2 weeks for double his salary as a junior designer.
Its just a matter of going where jobs are.
I would not be surprised if we're employed by the same company since the numbers with regards to tuition reimbursement and stats sound nearly identical. Unfortunately there are plenty of reputable colleges that make available 100% online MS CS degrees (UIUC, UT, and some others), but I haven't heard of any that have something similar for a bachelors. I've come across a handful of people that have been in a similar situation, so I know it can be done, but it is difficult and tiring so make sure it is the right decision for you and you have the stamina. Having said that, I don't think anybody that has gone through it has looked back and regret their decision to get the degree. Most did community college and tried to complete as many TRANSFERABLE credits as they could (part-time or full-time since a lot of courses can be done online or at night). I can't tell you how many people get burned because they didn't check what might be transferable. Once they outgrew the community college, they would complete the last 1.5 - 2 years (the actual meat and potatoes) of their program while working part-time and taking a full course load or working full-time but around a part-time course load (usually employers who have tuition reimbursement are quite flexible with schedules as long as you give them proper notice for things like afternoon finals and such). In any case, you should also try to take advantage of course offerings in the summer to cut down time-to-graduation. Best of luck!
Why would he live a company that will even pay him for getting a degree? Also, he'll probably get more pay once he finish anyway.
That's a kind of win-win situation. The company gets a well educated and happy employee, he gets a degree and a raise.
Rethinking email
I was able to do it after retiring from the navy. I did most of my lower division work through several community colleges in the area and then transferred to a state university to complete my degree. It took eight years to go this route. I was lucky because my employer was very supportive of my efforts and allowed me to adjust my work hours so that I could attend certain classes that were not offered at night.
Yeah, I did that back in 1995 to 2001. Took CS and Astronomy majors (that was one of the ways to get a B.Sc.) and started working in the profession from the first year of the university. It's different for you because you are already employed now, as you are looking to get a degree, so you likely don't need any loans, but actually I suggest you max out, get as much in loans as you can now and use the money to buy some income generating equities or property or better yet, precious metals (not income generating, but a good inflation hedge). It's basically one way to get a loan from a bank that you wouldn't otherwise get, and because of the coming changes with Obama's proposals, you won't even have to pay it back.
So get into that university, get a loan and make some money on it while getting the loan. Just one thing about universities and studying full time while working full time: spread your course work around the year, so you have a lighter semester load but it's constant, it will take you a bit longer to graduate, but you probably will be able to keep your job (or get a new one).
sig
Maybe you're just a shitty employee then. Where I work that's not true.
You already heave 5 years of experience programming? At this point in your life a degree is not required. Sure, it might mean your resume won't get looked at by some companies, but you probably don't want to work for those companies. if you are truly worried, then network. But honestly your 5+ years of experience should be enough.
but if you really want a degree, start by getting your basics out of the way, English and other non computer requirements. You can do most of these at a community college at night. But I don't think the time commitment is worth it.
How so?
For many disciplines, I might agree with you. After spending thousands of hours chasing down bugs like x= vs. x== , I'd rather hire a programer who is careful what they type. More importantly, the resume and cover letter are written. Aside from the roughly one page of bullet points you write, how you write is all that that potential employers have to go on. It might not be most important information, but it's the only sample of your work that they have in front of them.
You guys are absolutely full of bullshit. Not your own fault, you've just been force fed this horse dung about needing school. All it does is get you in debt. I've been in IT for over 10 years, self taught, and now a programmer for another 5, self taught, again. There is NO requirement except that you show an employer during an interview that you're smarter than the rest of the morons. I always ask to be put in a position where I can prove myself, whether that means working for one day, taking on a challenge or taking a good look at their business and pointing out exactly why you are better and how you would do things. Many programmers are robots, only able to take little ant paths given to them by their employers. Show them that you can think for yourself and make conscious decisions + program and you'll see how far you can go. Beware though, some companies (mostly larger ones) don't like people that can think on their own. I personally like smaller companies and you quickly get hero status and payment, security and recognition.
I am in the same situation- have been playing hooky from school but I was accepted into an online CS degree program at Florida State. One thing that convinced me I could work full time and do it was someone who was just about finished with the same degree and had less means to do so than myself. I have been working with computers since I was 18 and am now 32. No one gave me "the chance" to just develop so I have worked everyone position in between. I started in tech support, became tech support manager, have been a network engineer, worked QA for a while on a software team, became an IT manager/project manager, and then went on to do some web development before landing my most recent job doing development in C/C++/C# alongside ASP.NET. I am definitely happiest as a developer. This other guy doing the online program sprayed nasty toxic chemicals on boats full time and had two kids to support. I saw if he could do it I definitely could because my full-time job entailed sitting in a comfortable chair all day not working on nasty boats all day in one of the worst jobs the city has to offer. That guy is my hero and if he can do it you can too.
It's "paid" not "payed"
Get an English spelling course also. Take the slashdot editors also with you - there may be group discounts.
http://www.athabascau.ca/
Athabasca University is Canada's leader in distance learning. Have a look.
If you are concerned about your marketability, then put yourself on the market. Find out. Interview with some technical recruiters, or send your resume in for a few programming jobs. (You should have a few good recruiters in your network anyway -- the good ones are helpful). You don't have to actually accept the job unless it is better than what you currently do (yes, you need to be discreet about this with your current employer).
Employers are looking for people that can solve their business problems. They need people that can design, build and maintain their systems. The most convincing proof that you can do that is to have a track record of having done that before. Some employers may dismiss you, but it will be nowhere near 95%.
If the degree is a personal goal of yours, then go for it. But if it isn't, and you are just concerned about marketability, then I would make sure that the degree will indeed help with that. Also, keep in mind that careers take unexpected twists and may take you away from coding in years to come.
Degrees are overrated. No seriously. I don't have a degree, yet I've had no problem finding employment with a competitive salary. Even companies that claim to require a degree actually don't. Most companies I've worked with look for someone that has the ability to solve problems. You don't have to know everything about a language even, you just need to be able to use your brain to find the answers (as well as resources such as the internet, etc.)
It is MUCH easier to get a CS master's degree part-time than a BS, and you can start on a CS MS from any BS degree.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
There are probably lots of online schools offering degrees other than Comp Sci. Look at those.
You're self-taught in programming languages; that's good enough for programming. Your job experience as a Senior Developer is a very strong credential for getting another job.
Maybe you should think of getting a Business degree.
Get a degree in Business or Management, combined with Senior level developer experience, and you should be an attractive candidate, for a programming position, regardless of your lack of formal training in CS.
CS degree is only imperative if you would like to do advanced Science work, eg scientific research into computing, or teach at a university in the field.
Www.regis.edu campuses in Denver but has an excellent online version of their campus courses. Regionally certified which is exactly what you want.
A college degree is definitely a prerequisite for many jobs. For large companies or anyone going through an agency, the first round of HR filters will discard your resume without a second look. For most of these it will not matter how well you can do the job; you'll never even get in front of someone who can hire you. Speaking as someone who has been trying to hire people all this past year, the only resumes I saw were exactly the same with the same buzzwords. This is one of the reasons companies aren't hiring: the people with the marketing and buzzword skills to get past HR aren't necessarily the ones with the technical skills to get hired.
Actually, I'm in a similar spot. Most of the people I hire have their Master's Degree but I don't: I might never get considered for the "junior" positions I'm trying to fill. This is also a vote for doing it sooner rather than later. You'll always find reasons to put it off and they'll keep getting better. For me, I started a MS, then got laid off, started an MS then got hired out of town, started an MS, then had my first son, started the paperwork for an MS, then had my second son ...something always interrupts it.
Maybe the community colleges don't have night time programs, but "real" colleges should. In the Boston area, Boston University and Northeastern are two "real" schools with satellite campuses in the suburbs catering to people who work full time. You'll not only get a mostly online curriculum but also be able to go to real classes and speak to the actual teachers in the evenings and near work. I can't believe this is unusual in any metropolitan area.. Look at something like this.
I don't get it. Here in the Silicon Valley tons of jobs are looking for coders, and I'm sure you could even put a college degree on it, and the majority of companies wouldn't care, only really large ones that insist on ridiculous background checks. The smaller the company, often the greater the opportunity as well. Plenty of jobs coding for an entrepreneurial project are available here as well.
Thing is I work in IT and I have a business degree. Before IT, I did technical sales. The degree just is a piece of paper with no skills that translate to IT and I'm fine. I do agree that english skills are useful from college, sure math too. But I don't get computer programming at a school. I tried a class and I thought it was insane to learn code that way, vs just doing it progressively.
FSU Computer Science
If you decide to choose it, be careful, FSU has a more stringent foreign language policy than some other universities in the state university system of Florida. All degrees require 3 semesters of a foreign language or appropriate scores on a CLEP test.
I wouldn't consider University of Phoenix and DeVry scams, or even sub-standard. They are private schools, and they provide fully accredited degree programs (no small feat). Being private institutions, they have pursued a profit by catering to students with more demanding goals - such as nighttime/weekend class availability, targeted degree programs, accelerated programs, year-round classes, online classes, and other needs not adequately addressed at public institutions.
Let's not forget ... SIMPLE CLASS AVAILABILITY - how's that at public schools these days? I have family members in school right now, and every semester is a challenge to get classes that actually advance their educational goals. Remember that you cannot get a degree until you actually take the prescribed classes - I think this is where the private institutions excel over public ones.
One complaint I hear often is the cost of these private schools - detractors often describe the exorbitant costs of their degrees. Anecdotally, I would agree that they are incrementally more expensive than the state schools (I'm in California). By no means are they over-the-top, oh-my-god expensive.
To evaluate the cost of these schools (or any other), I would recommend a simple cost analysis. For example: DeVry offers a 3-year electrical engineering BS Degree, allowing students to get to work a full year earlier than with a public 4-year degree (again, assuming you can GET your classes within 4 years). Earning an engineering salary one full year "ahead of schedule" should count for something. Consider this same thing for night/weekend class availability for those working regular full-time jobs, and an incremental cost increase for your degree may well be worth it. ESPECIALLY IF YOUR EMPLOYER IS FOOTING THE BILL.
One downside to getting a degree at UoP, DeVry, or other such institution, is the perceived lack of credibility such degrees carry. Initially this may hamper the student's ability to get hired. After working and gaining practical experience, the source of the degree is less important than their career accomplishments. This is unlikely to be a factor for students with regular full-time jobs going back to school - their experience will always speak louder than their degree. The fact that they did both at the same time will be especially attractive.
*****
FULL DISCLOSURE: I received an BSEET Engineering Degree from DeVry in Phoenix in 1986. One of the best investments I've ever made in my life.
Anecdote: DeVry not only provided EE theory, but also focused on ACTUAL engineering experience in the EE program, and we were designing our own circuits within the first year. Contrast this with a UCSD EE student I had working for me a few years later: In his senior year (8th semester) he asked for help on designing a circuit, what was essentially a one-shot pulse generator. His schematic was a Rube Goldberg contraption of timers, logic gates, etc. After figuring out what he was doing, I scratched out a simple RC circuit with logic gates (just a few components) and gave him instruction on how to set the pulse width. His response: "Will this work?" My response: "Not only will it work, this is THE way to do it!" I had been using that circuit since my first year at DeVry.
DeVry is very good at APPLIED ENGINEERING. That's why General Dynamics in San Diego preferred to get their engineers from DeVry, and sent reps to our campus in Phoenix every trimester to recruit engineers.
I wouldn't consider University of Phoenix and DeVry scams, or even sub-standard. They are private schools, and they provide fully accredited degree programs (no small feat). Being private institutions, they have pursued a profit by catering to students with more demanding goals - such as nighttime/weekend class availability, targeted degree programs, accelerated programs, year-round classes, online classes, and other needs not adequately addressed at public institutions.
Let's not forget ... SIMPLE CLASS AVAILABILITY - how's that at public schools these days? I have family members in school right now, and every semester is a challenge to get classes that actually advance their educational goals. Remember that you cannot get a degree until you actually take the prescribed classes - I think this is where the private institutions excel over public ones.
One complaint I hear often is the cost of these private schools - detractors often describe the exorbitant costs of their degrees. Anecdotally, I would agree that they are incrementally more expensive than the state schools (I'm in California). By no means are they over-the-top, oh-my-god expensive.
To evaluate the cost of these schools (or any other), I would recommend a simple cost analysis. For example: DeVry offers a 3-year electrical engineering BS Degree, allowing students to get to work a full year earlier than with a public 4-year degree (again, assuming you can GET your classes within 4 years). Earning an engineering salary one full year "ahead of schedule" should count for something. Consider this same thing for night/weekend class availability for those working regular full-time jobs, and an incremental cost increase for your degree may well be worth it. ESPECIALLY IF YOUR EMPLOYER IS FOOTING THE BILL.
One downside to getting a degree at UoP, DeVry, or other such institution, is the perceived lack of credibility such degrees carry. Initially this may hamper the student's ability to get hired. After working and gaining practical experience, the source of the degree is less important than their career accomplishments. This is unlikely to be a factor for students with regular full-time jobs going back to school - their experience will always speak louder than their degree. The fact that they did both at the same time will be especially attractive.
*****
FULL DISCLOSURE: I received an BSEET Engineering Degree from DeVry in Phoenix in 1986. One of the best investments I've ever made in my life.
Anecdote: DeVry not only provided EE theory, but also focused on ACTUAL engineering experience in the EE program, and we were designing our own circuits within the first year. Contrast this with a UCSD EE student I had working for me a few years later: In his senior year (8th semester) he asked for help on designing a circuit, what was essentially a one-shot pulse generator. His schematic was a Rube Goldberg contraption of timers, logic gates, etc. After figuring out what he was doing, I scratched out a simple RC circuit with logic gates (just a few components) and gave him instruction on how to set the pulse width. His response: "Will this work?" My response: "Not only will it work, this is THE way to do it!" I had been using that circuit since my first year at DeVry.
DeVry is very good at APPLIED ENGINEERING. That's why General Dynamics in San Diego preferred to get their engineers from DeVry, and sent reps to our campus in Phoenix every trimester to recruit engineers.
I hope you are "payed" well, 'cuz you can't spell worth a goddamn...
I wouldn't consider DeVry and University of Phoenix scams, or even sub-standard. They are private schools, and they provide fully accredited degree programs (no small feat). Being private institutions, they have pursued a profit by catering to students with more demanding goals - such as nighttime/weekend class availability, targeted degree programs, accelerated programs, year-round classes, online classes, and other needs not adequately addressed at public institutions.
Let's not forget ... SIMPLE CLASS AVAILABILITY - how's that at public schools these days? I have family members in school right now, and every semester is a challenge to get classes that actually advance their educational goals. Remember that you cannot get a degree until you actually take the prescribed classes - I think this is where the private institutions excel over public ones.
One complaint I hear often is the cost of these private schools - detractors often describe the exorbitant costs of their degrees. Anecdotally, I would agree that they are incrementally more expensive than the state schools (I'm in California). By no means are they over-the-top, oh-my-god expensive.
To evaluate the cost of these schools (or any other), I would recommend a simple cost analysis. For example: DeVry offers a 3-year electrical engineering BS Degree, allowing students to get to work a full year earlier than with a public 4-year degree (again, assuming you can GET your classes within 4 years). Earning an engineering salary one full year "ahead of schedule" should count for something. Consider this same thing for night/weekend class availability for those working regular full-time jobs, and an incremental cost increase for your degree may well be worth it. ESPECIALLY IF YOUR EMPLOYER IS FOOTING THE BILL.
One downside to getting a degree at UoP, DeVry, or other such institution, is the perceived lack of credibility such degrees carry. Initially this may hamper the student's ability to get hired. After working and gaining practical experience, the source of the degree is less important than their career accomplishments. This is unlikely to be a factor for students with regular full-time jobs going back to school - their experience will always speak louder than their degree. The fact that they did both at the same time will be especially attractive.
*****
FULL DISCLOSURE: I received an BSEET Engineering Degree from DeVry in Phoenix in 1986. One of the best investments I've ever made in my life.
Anecdote: DeVry not only provided EE theory, but also focused on ACTUAL engineering experience in the EE program, and we were designing our own circuits within the first year. Contrast this with a UCSD EE student I had working for me a few years later: In his senior year (8th semester) he asked for help on designing a circuit, what was essentially a one-shot pulse generator. His schematic was a Rube Goldberg contraption of timers, logic gates, etc. After figuring out what he was doing, I scratched out a simple RC circuit with logic gates (just a few components) and gave him instruction on how to set the pulse width. His response: "Will this work?" My response: "Not only will it work, this is THE way to do it!" I had been using that circuit since my first year at DeVry.
DeVry is very good at APPLIED ENGINEERING. That's why General Dynamics in San Diego preferred to get their engineers from DeVry, and sent reps to our campus in Phoenix every trimester to recruit engineers.
From experience, I can say that all of the jobs that are posted as "requiring X degree" will totally substitute years of experience for said degree. The main reason that the job listings advertise a degree requirement is to weed out thousands of useless applicants that think they're hot-shot bad-asses. Companies don't have time to sort through so many applications, so they advertise job openings for the "ideal" entry-level applicant.
If you're at all in doubt, or you don't know where to look or who to apply with, hire a head-hunter to place you. I've never been to college, but I just landed a job with a 470,000-employee company in the tech industry because a headhunter was able to sell me to the company as a guy who knows his shit (which I somewhat am). So long as you're actually worth your salt, you'll have a job in technology.
That said, a piece of paper saying you have a formal education isn't going to hurt. I'm going to college soon myself, because a formal education is the only thing that my resume really lacks. I'll be doing something online as soon as I figure out which school I want to attend, it's the only choice for formal education in my case.
Take classes from MIT online:
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/find-by-topic/
If you can pay for the degree without going into debt, and can seriously work at it, fine.
Otherwise, Degrees in general in the age of the internet are proving to be somewhat of a scam. Incredibly expensive and have poor returns.
If you view this in light of how things are today, the 120 grand you would spend in on degree could be invested into a business of your own, or even a house and save you a lifetime of rent expenses.
120K in investments, or even traveling the world by backpack.
You would get much more out of it than spending money on a degree, and let me be frank:
1) You sit in a class room and are taught to think like everyone else, and if you do not you fail.
2) Solve problems exactly as everyone else or you fail.
3) Memorize useless facts which make no sense until they are applied, ironically in the real world because no problem in the real world can ever be as simple as the ones you find condescendingly in a text book.
Finally, above all College teaches you to OBEY. You WILL study and hand in a assignment at exactly the prescribed time for example otherwise, you can never be a good computer scientist or mathematician etc.
With all of this _CRAP_ I am surprised anyone bothers to become "educated" because that is not what you are when you go to college.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
If you are a SSE at 26 you should never consider leaving. You are not going to be at that level anywhere else at that age.
I was in the same boat as you were a few years ago, the exact boat - working as a developer, fairly established, but wanted to secure my future with a CS degree. I did the majority of it online through SUNY.
Here is the deal -- you are already established. Getting the degree is nothing more than what you are trying - ensure you keep getting hired. The degree is nothing more than an HR filter pass - the interview teams are going to be concentrating on what you are doing now for work not what you did in school or when you went to school even. If you are strictly doing it for the job, It doesnt matter how you get it, just get it and get it over with. And it will suck, and drive you nuts for years.
I also wouldnt knock UoP or Devry. People come from all walks of life and through many different circumstances and many will end up becoming better coders than you. I saw this first hand with a back to school mom when i was a junior who transferred from one of those web based deals, she was amazing, and her last job was some clerical bullshit - its about the person. Also, Devry has a very good rep, every tech or person i know that has graduated from devry has had their shit together. They do hands on shit there. Nowadays i question the traditional 4 year degrees more than i do the targeted programs, there are alot of chubby cherubs smoking weed all day at college, wereas the tech schools have people hustling that want to get in the workforce.
I disagree that employers cannot tell a good programmer froma smooth talking bullshit artist. In many large companies, it really depends on the dynamic the supervisor or manager is trying to create with the team. Here is an example:
Team of 5 - 4 bitter people, one job opening
Situation: Supervisor or manager gets shit from peers and upper managers that his team are a bunch of debbie downers
Decision: lets hire someone who may be less of a programmer but more balanced with life so i dont sit alone with these retards every christmas dinner.
Team of 5 - 4 technical people, one job opening
Situation: Supervisor gets shit that his team doesnt play well with others or fail to attend project meetings
Decision: lets hire someone who may be less of a programmer but can work with people.
Team of 5 - 4 technical people, one job opening
Situation: My four guys all want to do the cutting edge shit but none of them document worth a shit
Decision: Hire a junior who doesnt mind documenting and let him grow into the position.
Team of 5 - 4 technical people, one job opening
Situation: My four guys think their hot shit because they just got X certification and want 120k
Decision: Lets take them down a notch and transfer their work to a junior that will do it for significant less attitude.
Employers are terrible at evaluating candidates. Can't tell a good programmer from a smooth talking bullshit artist. Nor, on the more subjective criteria, are they much good at telling the crazies apart from the merely desperate. The best they can do is hit prospects with a test on trivia about a particular language, the sort of stuff you shouldn't memorize but should look up in a reference. Quick, name all the reserved words in C++! If you can't do it, then you must not be an expert C++ programmer. If you try to explain why knowing that is not important, then you get that question "wrong", and are tagged as a BS artist to boot. I've had a so-called technical interview end after just 1 trivia question. They refuse to allow any time for training, demanding that new hires "hit the ground running". Candidates are expected to train themselves at their own expense beforehand.
Nope. I can accept that things happen differently in non-technical mega corporations and/or places without a critical mass of software people, although companies where software is core in viable startup hubs don't do that with "core" defined in Moore's core vs context categorization. Context activities are things that businesses must do like E-mail but doing them better than their competitors like sending messages in 10ms not 100 doesn't impact the bottom line. Core activities are those which do - better scalability and WAN optimization lets a cloud backup company serve bigger customers which pay more.
All but one out of a dozen places I've worked over 19 years in Boulder, Seattle (plus the East Side), and Silicon Valley did not do things the way you describe. Every competent software engineer who's worked in industry for a while knows that programming aptitude can be sanity checked in an interview, that knowing trivia is orthogonal to being able to do the job, and that other competent engineers will quickly pickup a language or library they're not familiar with (which is the easy part) while not so good engineers who know a language will never gain aptitudes they lack. Decent managers leave technical hiring decisions to a potential employees' peers.
Microsoft hired me to write C# professionally although I'd never seen the language before. I worked on Amazon products written in Java although I'd seen it once professionally.
There seem to be several aptitudes
1. Thinking through problems logically, identifying their edge conditions, and expressing a solution
2. Indirection
3. Applying knowledge to engineering problems
4. Parallelism
5. Recursion
which people have or don't.
In theory all should be pre-requisites for a computer science degree although in practice that is is not the case. My favorite professor taught data structures, graded students based on how their code did compiled and linked against teaching assistant defined automated test suites, and allegedly failed 1/3 of the class. The department wasn't happy with the failure rate (presumably due to their share of tuition dollars when people were forced out of a CS major) and replaced her. Graduates I interviewed for positions in industry before the faculty change were usually worth hiring. After they had a 50% reject rate.
I ask all candidates simple questions out of the first four categories, two with code. No trick questions. Engineers which do well as employees tend to make it through the current first question in under 10 minutes and the rest under 5 after which we can talk about projects and process. When I was young and naive I caved to management and overlooked a few problems but have since learned my lesson. People you don't want to hire can spend 45 minutes on one and not get to an answer. Probably 99/100 contingency recruiter submitted candidates don't do well there (I like to think that's because the vast majority of people you want to work with already have jobs, as opposed to there being that few competent people).
When it comes to projects I don't ca
You can get a BS in CS from Florida State University: http://www.pc.fsu.edu/Academics/Online-Programs/Computer-Science It's a good program and has been great for my career.
I agree - it was a ton of work - especially the constant study group research projects. My wife was taking a Masters at a major public university at the same time, and she would only have one large group project per class per semester (if that), while I usually had one every 1--2 weeks at UoPhx. I was writing more papers with harder grading criteria in 5-6 week classes than she was in her semester-long Master's level classes.
I'm not sure where you are located. I was in the same situation, but was fortunate to be in a Tier 1 city. Applied and accepted at a major university, and was able to complete the course work. Since I was working as a developer (and having a great boss as well), I was allowed some flexibility in hours to attend class. It was hard. Very hard. Took me about 7 years, but I did get the sheep skin. Glad I did. Years later, i rose to manager, director, VP, finally CTO of a multinational systems integration company-- it's been a great ride and I wish you all the best.
Skip the CS Degree, Network Yourself, Know People
If you meet people while you are in this position, and they know how awesome you are - you won't have to cram a CS degree on your resume to be filtered by an HR.Auto.Bot.
Keep rocking your position, and make professional contacts. You already are several laps ahead of most other people your age.
Enjoy the good life, and make it better. You don't need to send yourself back to square one.
I was working full time when I got my CS degree from FSU. While the program is completely "distance" learning, meaning you never have to set foot in Tallahassee or Panama City, it's not 100% online, as exams have to be proctored. If your job will give you a little flexibility once or twice per semester to take an exam at a local CC or whatnot, it's quite doable.
It's worth mentioning, though, that the program is only for the "core" classes. Gen Ed requirements and prerequisites still have to be taken somewhere else (I was able to find night classes for Spanish I-III).
HTH
College can be an interesting experience if you went there right out of high-school with everyone else in the same age group and got to study new and interesting topics and enjoy your time socializing, otherwise it is likely a waste of time.
I.T. is the frontier of the business world so most of the time it is the experience that matters when it comes to interviews for senior level positions that actually pay good money. In my career I have been interviewed and have interviewed and the question of where did you go to college was only asked twice of me and that was in-passing by a curious interviewer at the end of the interviews, the answer that I dropped-out of high-school didn't matter to them at that point.
I have worked for Fortune 500 (2012) companies #16, #68, #80, #384 and others in various order and none of the interviewers that mattered for getting the job cared if I went to college or not due to the experience that I had and my performance in the interviews.
I sometimes have thoughts of of what my life would be like if I finished high-school and went to college but I always think that it is unknown if I would be better off with a college degree versus the 5-extra years of hands-on hardcore experience that I had gained instead and was able to lands jobs paying middle 6-figures at any of these companies through my interviews in the ultra-competitive and I.T. saturated NYC.
I am also sometimes interested in making-up some of the hard science education that I have missed in my high-school and would-be college years such as physics, calculus, advanced algebra, etc. but I always end up thinking that I would rather continue self-educating myself in what I find fun at the moment such as PowerShell and .NET Framework instead of going back to learning things that I think I might like but have nothing to do with my current and future jobs.
It's possible that if I went through the standard route of high-school then college that I might be doing something much more technical than Server Administration but I could also be stuck doing something much worse at some crappy company with college dept left to pay since I didn't have any means of attending college.
"define" is the only word that matters. It can change the meanings of everything else.
I don't get it. I've never seen a shortage in the market for someone who actually knows what they're doing. For at least 15 years now there's been a rapidly growing market for workers who have no college education, who are self-taught. Rapidly growing from one that was the majority 100 years before anyway... The idea of college actually BEING an education is antiquated. seriously.
I'm over 50 and face the same dilemma. Every time I thought of getting the degree things always worked out. But I know as I get older my luck will run out. I've been very fortunate that without a degree I have done very well. So don't make the same mistake, get the degree and never face this issue and you'll never have to worry.
I have been working as a software developer/engineer/architect since 1997. I have about 90 credit hours behind me but never got around to finishing a degree before diving into this career, life distracted me and time got away.
Some time ago, after years of being surrounded by educated people and downplaying my own shortcomings ( and feeling like a fraud ) I decided that I had enough, so I decided to pick the effort back up. It is quite tough to juggle a full time job and course work - but I enjoy learning.
My advise: By all means proceed. The effort is such that you will quickly discover if this is want you want... or not.
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
My department was in need of a solid, heads-down developer and we had a lot of trouble finding qualified candidates. Dont buy into this H1B negative talk.
If you are smart and can make things work the world needs you. Even if you are an American.
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
As the employee becomes better at the job you give him raises and change his responsibilities to match. A lot of employers screw that up but if you genuinely want to keep the employee that's what you have to do -- regardless of *how* he got better at the work.
And you do want him better at the job. The guy who is twice as productive still only consumes one set of healthcare, one office, etc. If he wants to spend his unpaid time on coursework which will make him better at the job, paying for the tuition and books is a bargain.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
lot's of good and bad advice flowing on this thread, but grammarians are universally bad bosses...
being a 'grammar nazi' shows an inability to discern value outside of arbitrary rules
obv. 'attention to detail' is good...but knowing when to apply rules appropriately and when the rules are irrelevant is the skill...memorizing and pedantically enforcing an inconsistent set of rules can be done by any moron
Thank you Dave Raggett
I don't have a good answer to OP's question, but I was teacher, a research scientist in academia, and now I'm starting my own business.
I like the Physics suggestion, thinking as an employer. He's already got the skills, adding Physics or another parallel discipline will make for a demonstrably better problem solver...and even the dumbest HR bot will respect that reasoning.
Thank you Dave Raggett
I'd add a 'maybe'...but I am glad someone threw this out there...
OP may not *want* to do things like payroll, break evens, 'business plans,' finding a location to lease, hiring employees, etc...
I'd wager that in fact he does *not*...most people prefer to fill a role in someone else's biz for the sake of consistency. 'Starting your own business' is entrepreneurship...it's a separate skill and activity requiring different abilities and time commitment.
If OP or others *want* that, by all means go for it, but I would not give a blanket recommendation to just 'start your own biz dood' to anyone asking the OP's question.
Thank you Dave Raggett
What prevents him from simply getting a BSc and leaving for another company with more pay?
Also, it's somewhat strange that the company should make an investment in his level of education, and yet the return will go to him (I'm sure he would expect a higher salary).
Lots of companies do this. You seem to completely ignore the possibility that the company could be interested in having its workers be more skilled, and willing to pay for higher skill levels.
Many companies attach commitments to the money. For example, if you leave within 1-2 years of them paying for a class then you have to pay them back.
ugh...
Diversify, diversify, diversify, but OP should keep it to the sciences (even *gasp* psychology or communications) or economics.
"Business" and "Management" degrees should be only as a 'minor' or combined with a letters or scientific degree. They are not academic disciplines. They are a construct of the trend in academia to make degrees that are more 'practical'
The only valuable coursework will be the cross disciplinary classes like psychology, accounting, or maths (if biz majors even have math pre-req's anymore).
As for the 'business' and 'marketing' distinctives? Well, they teach you how to 'bullshit'...and I think we'd all agree there are better places to learn how to do that ;)
Thank you Dave Raggett
When I realised I was too accomplished to get an entry level job. When you hit 30, education won't matter, and the fact that you can do your job will.
Keep on knockin'
https://robbiecrash.me
There is Baker College in Michigan. They offer a online program to get a BS in Computer Science. I started there, and it was actually quite a bit of work, but I eventually got a scholarship and as able to go to a local University. I know people complain about the College VS University thing, but if your doing it more for a formality.
Program Offerings:
https://carina.baker.edu/PGMSOLU?DEPT=ONL
CS:
https://carina.baker.edu/MSTSTPO?DLV=U&LOCNO=&DIV=CIS&DEG=BCS&CON=CSO&CVER=2012A&VER=2012A&DIVTTL=Bachelor%20of%20Computer%20Science&PGMTTL=Computer%20Science&PGMTTL1=&OFRTTL=THIS%20PROGRAM%20IS%20OFFERED%20AT%20THE%20FOLLOWING%20BAKER%20COLLEGE%20CAMPUS%3A&CMPOFR=Online&DEPT=ONL
General info:
http://www.baker.edu/bakeronline/
FTFY, chances are. (Not you personally but your employer's HR department.)
Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
If I were an employer, I'd love to pay for investments in my employees (education, training, etc.). The one thing I would ask in return is that they stay with the company in order to preserve institutional knowledge. Making an investment so a competitor can benefit would be horrible.
Maybe the answer is long term (8 yrs) contracts like the Army has.
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
The New Jersey Institute of Technology (https://www.njit.edu) has a distance learning CS degree. You can pretty much take every class online with the exception of some of the non CS electives, Physics, and Math requirements.
You arent a Scientist, youre a Tech So why to get a CS degree ? Get Certifications instead. CS is very about math & statistics theoretical ,formal and academic definitions ,not about hands on computers,networks or programming languages, thats what you do and is well paid for.
I was in the same boat except that I was 29 and a systems admin. While my job was pretty good and the pay was enough for me to live comfortably, I decided to go back primarily because I did not want a management position to be jeopardized for not having the degree.
Here's what I did:
1) Pick the school that works best for you, with the major you want. I decided on University of Texas at Dallas because it has historically been a commuter school and offered a lot of even classes. Also, the campus is along my commute from work to home.
2) Find a local community college that offers as many transferable classes as possible. I decided to start at the community college level because the tuition reimbursement at my job isn't all that great. I wanted to use more of the money available in the later stages of my education. Also if I decided that i couldn't handle school and work, I wouldn't be out that much money. Also community colleges usually offer a lot of evening courses. Some community colleges offer the ability to retroactively award an associate degree if you complete the course load at a four year school.
3) Pick your class load. I decided that slow and steady wasn't going to work for me. I went full time, year round. At the end of 2 years, I had an associate degree that no one can take away.
4) Move on to four year school and do as well as you can. I have the advantage of already knowing that I have a really good job and have enough work experience to back it up in case I do need to look for something else. Having a high GPA is nice, but it really doesn't mean much when you already have a job and plenty of work experience. I have done as much as I can to pass classes with out much effort. With one exception (I had to take Calculus II four times before finally passing it.), I passed most of my classes with A's and B's. Now I'm about a semester and some change from graduating.
Unless you are already a super math genius, I would definitely bone up on your algebra and calculus prior to taking them. I had a 15 year gap in my math education that was really hard to overcome. Especially for CS. You might as well take a few extra maths and get a math degree as well.
Columbia College - Home Campus Columbia, Missouri
I am currently finishing up my degree(s) here in Computer Information Systems and Computer Science. They off their Computer Information Systems degree online and I have taken several of the courses myself. It is a fully accredited school that you should look into. They also are ranked one of the most affordable schools in the state.
I worked for a big financial and they used to offer 5K per year academic compensation. Prior to me leaving they cut that down to 2.5K per year. For graduate school I was paying near 13K per year (at a public state school for 2 classes in fall/spring and one over summer). While I am grateful for the help, really I paid out more than double.
My first job was even worse only offering 2.5k per year for compensation. Additionally having had 5 jobs so far (beginning job #5 in a few days)...none of them paid for training. Two of them said they would pay for a conference when the economy is better and if they have spare cash....but the economy is not better...so you are SOL. At least the job that I am leaving now would buy paper books and put them on a community bookshelf in the office.
Having used tuition benefits, usually you don't just get them for free. Generally you have to work for the company x amount of time after payout or you pay the money back (they won't wait for you to mail a check, most of the time they'll take it right out of your final paycheck(s)). And since the payout tends to be at the end of the semester, they are pretty much keeping you for x amount of time after your training to benefit. At the two jobs I have had which had that benefit, the duration was 1 year. So basically they get the benefit of your "enhanced skill" for 1 year or their money back. Additionally some places have limits that you can only use the benefit after z amount of time employed with the company. So if you figure a 2 year Masters program the employer is probably going to have you stick around for 3-4 years which for some professions (like software developer) is well above the normal length of an employee staying.
Check out Baker College. www.baker.edu Their program is regionally accredited and delivered online. I finished up my degree through them about four years ago and it has opened a lot of doors for me.
Background: I worked as a Data Analyst for a small Healthcare company for about 8 years. I learned computer languages (perl), MS-SQL Server, Access, etc. I built a data warehouse from the ground up with only a book, which I lost and it was a great book on data warehousing. I quit that job to be with my partner. His job moved him to a new state and new city. I was unable to get a job doing what I was doing regardless of my experience. I wouldn't get in the door because of no degree in CS or CIS.
Now, I'm 44 and entering a four year university as a Junior. I have spent the last couple of years working hard full time for a bank, and going to community college. I graduated with my Associate's Degree. I've used it to transfer to the university. It was hard. I had to adjust my work schedule, a tweak here and there. Started later, and went home a bit later, and studied my a** off. I worked hard at both of my jobs. Work and School. The result, I'm happier, I was able to find a better job at the bank, using my experience and the fact that I have just an Associate's Degree. It was the combination that helped. And work is still working with me. It is to their advantage that I continue my studies and receive I higher degree.
If they value you and will help you with a degree with tuition reimbursement then they should work with you as you go to school. You may not be able to do more than a couple of classes at a time per semester and it will be hard. It will also be more rewarding than you can imagine. First talk to your employer and let them know your dilemma. Work with them towards a solution, and then apply to school and go. You won't regret it.
Save Pangaea!! Stop Continental Drift!!
http://www.bestcomputersciencedegrees.com/top/online-programs-in-computer-science-and-it/ has a list ... suggest verifying with this new tool called 'Google'.
I never got a CS degree, and that made it hard to get the first job, but once you have real-world professional experience, I doubt "95%" of companies will pass you over based on the degree.
It's not that it's a bad thing to get the degree, but I think you're overestimating the importance of the degree in comparison to real professional experience and/or reputation.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
Not sure how things are in your part of the world, but in the UK, formal education - at least for people with relevant experience, isn't in my experience a major concern. I speak from both sides of the table - having no degree myself but having plenty of pertinent experience and a solid work history, and regularly having to interview potential candidates.
I contract - out of preference, and don't even list formal education on my CV. My work history speaks for itself and I list job title, a brief description of the role, and then go on to list the major achievements, for example the delivery of a project in which you took a leading role, some efficiency gain or whatever. Add enough detail that shows why you're a better bet than the next bloke. Don't bullshit, but do spin it the most positive way you can. Perhaps put in a little work understanding the market segment you're in from the business perspective. A couple of months of study on the business side can really compliment technical skill (consider a coder working in banking. One conversant with derivatives, fx trading or debt markets is a better bet that one with a CS degree)
It helps perhaps that I work in a relatively niche industry (security) and it's small enough that you almost always know someone who knows someone that knows you for out of band verification, but this approach has worked for me.
If no-one else has already suggested it, apply for a couple of likely sounding roles and see what happens. On a couple of occasions where I've been in a position for an extended period and I'm worried that I've lost my interview edge, I've applied for and attended interviews just to stay sharp - even if I've no real motivation to leave. If you get interviews, or better yet, an offer, you've answered your own question. If you don't, consider what you've got in your resume, retry and if still nothing, you probably have your answer.
Good luck
If you have the work experience, you might consider going straight to a masters. DEN from USC and Purdue's distance education among others offer online master's degrees and might allow you to start as a limited student to allow you to demonstrate your ability before full admission. A bit pricier than those suggested above.
I was in a similar position with an AA in an unrelated field, working in a well-paid job with no upward mobility. A move up is a move out.
I enrolled at SUNY Empire State College and completed a BS in Information Systems in one year, seven courses. I've been in my field about 12 years and managed to get 40 prior learning credits (think "life experience") via essays and interviews. The coursework is all online, has sufficient rigor for me, and is offered through the State University of New York which is anything but a diploma mill. Costs are about $10k per annum including tuition, books and fees.
The school offers a CS degree, although IS is probably just as relevant to your resume so I'd investigate it too. Here's the CS link:
http://www.esc.edu/degrees-programs/undergraduate-aos/science-math-technology/detailed-guidelines/smt-concentration/computer-science/matriculated-after-2009-jan-1/
All in all, I've found that my work experience is more valuable than the education I've received, but the degree is a base qualifier that keeps your resume from hitting the circular file. If you were in another line of work that may be a different story. Best of luck!
I got my BSSE [Bachelor's of Science in Software Engineering online in 2005 from ctuonline.edu [Colorado Technical University] which is a FULLY accredited college w/Federal Student Loans available.
It may not matter how good you are if you don't have a degree. I've seen it happen to some very sharp people.
I've seen some places put a payback requirement on the reimbursement if you leave within 6 to 12 months.
Generally, though, if you treat the employees well and have interesting work for them, you won't lose them. And if you're likely to lose them after, it'll be obvious in their attitude before you make the investment.
Think of it like buying off ebay: sure, some small percentage of the transactions will be fraudulent. You come out so far ahead on the ones that aren't that it doesn't matter.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Hi,
There are high quality Australian institutions with well established international reputations that provide extremely cost effective online courses, and you might get to take a holiday in Australia too. Do an online search with distance learning and computer science/software engineering
Here is a link. http://fastfound.com/study-in-australia/computer-science-degree-at-australian-universities/
Some of the most prestigious world leading comp sci scholars are currently based in Australia. We have exceptional weather, environment and low cost of living in many cases. Also, living a long way away from the rest of the world, we have awesome distance education courses.
All our universities are accredited, and all but two are federally funded. You can't really get a bogus education here if you stay inside a public institution.
Kindness
Danuta
Oregon State University *seems* to have a nice ecampus option...
http://ecampus.oregonstate.edu/online-degrees/undergraduate/computer-science/
It seems their computer science degree piggy backs a bachelors of another major, which can be done all online.
Right now finding good online colleges takes a lot of footwork because initial web searches turn up the many junk sites promoting crap online schools.
Then, if you find some potentially credible colleges, the always have terrible choices for majors.
And then, who's to say some University's new ecampus is actually worth anything? Can only read up and try to find out, after all it's a new trend.
Apparently there are some other state universities that offer online courses as well:
University of Illinois Online Computer Science Bachelor’s Degree
University of Atlanta Bachelor of Science in Computer Science
Regis University Bachelor of Science in Computer Science
University of Maryland University College Bachelor of Science in Computer Science
University of Florida BA or BS in Computer Science
Alternatively, maybe people would be impressed by a combination of your work experience and professional certificates (indicating you can hack it in the academic world: http://scpd.stanford.edu/certificates/professional-education-certificate.jsp )
Give Your Job Search A Restart
Job searching is not a simple process. It includes lot of stress and tension. During the job search process, people usually make several mistakes that in return reduces the chances of getting the required job, and repetitive failures in spite of countless efforts also has a great impact on the confidence of an individual. In order to get the right job, you need to overcome the issues that most likely create hurdles between you and your career. Some of the problems are discussed below along with the possible solutions that will help you in drafting a strategy for your job search in a better way. This will ultimately lead you to the best job.
The first problem is that job seekers spend only thirty minutes every day in job search, which is wrong. No matter if you have a job or out of a job, searching for the right job takes the maximum amount of time. According to research in the United States, people looking for a job only spend 30 minutes per day on average. This study shows that this amount of time will not leadto outstanding results. To get the best job, it is important to spend more time on searching than on TV. If you feel that you do not have ample time for this task, then it means you are not actually considering it seriously.
http://www.wiseguysjobs.com/
It took me a while, but I got my degree while working full time.
A lot of it depends on your employer. Your employer NEEDS to know that there will be times when you need to be heads down studying. Fortunately, the syllabuses should give you advance warning, and you should be able to give your employer advance warning.
All night classes are mostly impossible to fulfill a degree, so are online only. You will need to take time off during the day, so it's best if your school is quick commuting distance from work. Your work should be ok with this. I made up my work time on weekends and at night when I didn't have assignments blocked.
Finally, be very careful about moving beyond 12 credits. Any time I did my grades suffered depending on how many extra credits I took. Working full time will slow you down, but in my case, was the best way to afford college.
Many classes can be done online, others are done in clusters - brought to your town on evenings and weekends. You may have to do capstone on campus (for my MBA it was one week long class in Ft Lauderdale). So you save up vacation for the capstone... (I saved vacation, then my boss gave me the week as a training week - great boss).
I hear Webster is geared on the same model, but don't have the actual knowledge of them - you may want to investigate.
Agree with Phoenix being scam school. I actually looked into teaching for them once.... Not enough knowledge of DeVry to state about them.
If your aid is being reduced because of the money you already are earning, but you want to take full time classes at the community college during the day; you may try writing an appeal to your financial aid office. You can tell them that you're going to be ending your job, and they will adjust your EFC accordingly. I'd imagine it'd be zero.
I know the community college in my area gives out about $5600 per quarter when you've got a zero EFC
By being fired for lying in the CV. of course!
You see, your former employer it's not allowed (by law) to talk badly from you if someone calls him for references, but this doesn't apply on the table of a bar neither prevents him to refuse to answer the right question.
"Your former employee is trustworthy?"
"I won't answer this question..."
Don't think managers and H/R people don't have social life nor circles of friendship on different companies.
Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
I was able to start studying for Masters degree in University of Liverpool, even without finishing my Bashelor. They just wanted to see 10 years of Software Engineering experience. You can apply online and study remotely. The costs are also reasonable about 17k GBP for 2 years+ of courses.
Seriously. I got my BSEET from DeVry 20 years ago and have had, by any measure, a successful career as an engineer in the semiconductor industry. I've always been valuable enough to my employers that I've never been layed-off and have enjoyed excellent compensation. The degree had exactly the same accreditation that the local state university had (Arizona State) for it's engineering college. Furthermore, I feel that the education I received from DeVry was far more practical and useful in my career that what I saw from the traditional school and from what I see in new college grads, today. Moreover, the smaller class size and year-round trimester system closely matched my desire.
However, your perception is not unusual and that general perception held me back early, one time in the last 20 years when I was looking for a new job. Also, I am a naturally curious self-learner so my personal characteristics may have had more to do with my success than my degree.
The fact is, a few years out of graduation, your degree will matter not a whit. It is your experience and capabilities that will provide you security. Having had to hire many people into engineering over the years, I have this to say. Don't get a Bachelor's of Science degree because engineering or computer science pays well, get that degree because that's what you are or what you want to be.
In your specific case, all you need is a piece of paper that says you stuck out a degree program to satisfy your need and that of those who might hire you. If you describe yourself accurately, you won't get much from any undergraduate degree program.
There are only 6,863,795,529 types of people in the world.
Employers have only themselves to blame for the "shortage". They reject perfectly good candidates out of hand, for the craziest subjective non-reasons, then complain there's a shortage. They have weird ideas about the extraneous qualities they think they want. Like, why is age discrimination rampant? They believe young coders are more easily bullied into working longer hours, and will take less pay. If they want to reject a programmer for being too old, they make up some other bullcrap excuse why, or don't even bother with that. They also desire what they call "loyalty" (while showing no loyalty themselves towards their employees), which really means they want the candidate who is not a "flight risk". They want a candidate within a "good" range of debt and desperation-- not so much that he will steal from the company, but not so little that he can afford to walk away. Evaluating that aspect of a person is very difficult, since they're not supposed to do that at all so they can't outright ask for the information they want. However, credit scores certainly help with that.
Employers are terrible at evaluating candidates. Can't tell a good programmer from a smooth talking bullshit artist. Nor, on the more subjective criteria, are they much good at telling the crazies apart from the merely desperate. The best they can do is hit prospects with a test on trivia about a particular language, the sort of stuff you shouldn't memorize but should look up in a reference. Quick, name all the reserved words in C++! If you can't do it, then you must not be an expert C++ programmer. If you try to explain why knowing that is not important, then you get that question "wrong", and are tagged as a BS artist to boot. I've had a so-called technical interview end after just 1 trivia question. They refuse to allow any time for training, demanding that new hires "hit the ground running". Candidates are expected to train themselves at their own expense beforehand.
Krugman said it best, there is NO actual shortage of skilled candidates. What we have are employers who want people to work at graduate level for minimum wage and complaining when they can't find it that they need more H1Bs to drive everyone else's wages down. It's all a major scam.