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Ask Slashdot: What To Do About Patent Trolls Seeking Wi-fi License Fees?
An anonymous reader writes "My company has been contacted by certified letter by Delaware law firm. They are seeking license fees for a Wi-fi patent. I believe this is a patent troll (not that this matters in relation to dealing with this issue). This is a newly formed law firm less than 4 months old. This patent is U.S. Patent No. 5,506,866. This patent covers equipment and method related to the transmission of information involving the multiplexing information into a stream of signal points (and demultiplexing the same), and related technology. They have 'offered' to license this patent with no amounts specified. Unfortunately we are a small free software company. The company is setup as a sole proprietorship. I'm not asking for legal advise from the Slashdot community. The question is where might one look for 'legal counsel' with the expertise to answer these types of legal questions as it relates to this inquiry. I would prefer to avoid legal fees, court cases, or license fees running the company into the ground. The company is registered in New Jersey."
I don't think you should be discussing a legal threat in a public forum.
Don't mess with The Phone Company. Piss them off and you'll be using two tin cans and a piece of string.
You're a free software company yes? If so then you can offer to give them a percentage of profit from each software sale you make (being zero). You'll probably have to swing that idea by a lawyer, but I say screw them.
Wwhere might one look for 'legal counsel' with the expertise to answer these types of legal questions as it relates to this inquiry. I would prefer to avoid legal fees, court cases, or license fees running the company into the ground.
You should see an IP laywer. While this won't avoid you all legal fees, you'll be able to get some basic answers for a small cost, and it will let you know if your other constraints (avoiding court or license fees) are reasonable.
What are the repercussions or ramifications of you writing back,
"Fuck you, we're not going to play this game."
Serious question.
They just showed a patent that describes any number of things. Ethernet for example. It also describes how TDM/FDM both tech from ancient history as telecom goes. It's high time we had a triple damages system in our courts. Would make a troll think twice.
You should find yourself an attorney.
1) this patent was filed in 1993, making it a 17 years from issue date patent. Based upon it's issue date of April 9, 1996, it expires (dies) on April 9, 2013. So in a very very short time, the patent will be useless anyway.
2) What is claimed is based upon side channel data in a simultaneous analog/digital signal. It is very unlikely to actually apply to WiFi, but if they can scare you into paying them, then they win. With a competent atty., it is very likely you can make them look elsewhere for victims they can frighten into settlements.
http://www.google.com/patents/US5506866
Lazy bones.
FSF
Get an aggressive lawyer who cuts their balls off, who will attack any idiot troll. But the lawyer actually needs to know IP litigation and patent stuff. Find someone you would hate to have for a dinner party. Be prepared to fight. Be aggressive. Make them back down, and publicize the hell out your fight / victory. Dont look like the weak kid.
Would Canada work for those purposes? I guess so.
See title. Also don't reply until you absolutely HAVE to. Paten runs out this year!
I doubt that you are competent enough to evaluate the patent givien that you are not able/willing to shoulder the burdon of three/four extra clicks to arrive at the relevant documentation.
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
Could someone please make this a hyperlink. I'm too lazy to copy and paste it into my url.
It's the only way to be sure.
the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
While the 3 click rule may be bunk cf. http://sixrevisions.com/usabilityaccessibility/10-usability-tips-based-on-research-studies/ making users leave your site to go search for their own info is not posting a useful story.
If you're going to post a story, post it *with* the relevant links, for everyone, not just for me.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Sometimes I wonder if patent trolls are created by companies producing related software or products to try and kill off all competition.
Everyone and their grandma knows the one of the worst trolls, Intellectual Ventures, was started by "ex" Microsoft EmployeeS, note the S. No surprise there.
Wouldn't be surprised if they were the guys behind most of Microsofts direct attacks on everyone else even remotely a threat to Microsoft.
I would like to see if any of those patent trolls have any relation to any large companies, it would be quite interesting.
Show those people a turnip and a rock.
Then tell them that while they are trying to get a license fee out of you, they should try getting blood out of the turnip and rock.
That may dissuade them from proceeding with a suit - what's the point in going after you if you have no money.
Then get the lawyers.
Now, why those people aren't going after Linsys, Netgear, etc. ... and the cell phone companies has me a little confused because they have the deep pockets - and a much better chance of a payoff.
>legal advise
>advise
Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
... and accordingly, under $other_country law, you plan to enact a plea of Incenderunt Ad Officium. Then ask them exactly *when* they'd like the five gallons of petrol delivered to their letterbox.
similar or same thing?. Maybe some ideas about approching this can be found there:
http://patentexaminer.org/2011/09/innovatios-infringement-suit-rampage-expands-to-corporate-hotels/
This patent is explicitly for PSTN modems, from the looks of it low rate V34 or V17, and is extremely unlikely to be held legitimate or even remotely applicable to WiFi if you go to court/war over it. Further, it expires very soon, so it may be best to not respond and wait for expiration. Simply looking at the diagrams included in the patent text may be sufficient to get the case thrown out, should it come to that. However, by that point, you will have wasted a ton of money.
Probably the best approach is to not respond, and do no further releases until its expiration in april so that if a suit arrives, you can say that you immediately stopped using the offending code. I don't know that I would even bother to hire an attorney given what I see in the patent, but that's up to you.
Alter Aeon Multiclass MUD - http://www.alteraeon.com
Kill their lawyer(s).
I am not a lawyer, so you should find someone who is.
Others have noted that the patent should expire this year. You mentioned that you are a small software vendor - I understand from that that you have about 20 guys at work. Could you operate without WIFI?
Seriously. Turn the WIFI radios of from all laptops and have cables on all desks and in meeting rooms. It's really not that hard.
I have no idea if that would work legally, but technically it's doable. Then you could reply that you are not using any infringing technology.
Not sure what you're asking, but I'd consider answering along the lines of not being aware of how your business, software, is --or even possibly could be-- in any way or form infringing on their patents, how any and all hardware that may possibly be subject to the patent is store-bought and therefore assumed to be properly accounted for by the manufacturer, how it is up to them to establish how what you're doing is in fact infringing, and that you're happy to assist them further for a nicely outrageous hourly rate, paid in advance, because patent law is not your core business.
Otherwise, do we really have to start buying our stuff with patent litigation indemnity guarantees or something? This sort of thing just smells abusive. Isn't there an abusive litigation law somewhere?
Or maybe you could offer to license their complete current-and-future patent portfolio for an one-off payment of some small number, like two dollarcents. Be prepared to back up how that is a reasonable number given how, well, you figure something out.
Or perhaps you could counter-sue for frivolous lititgation and wasting your time for the time it's cost you so far which ought to be a small enough number still to fit in small claims court--the one nearest to you, of course. If you choose to talk first, I'd probably at least warn them that your time isn't free and that continuing to argue will incur consulting charges.
But of course you need to talk to some lawyer type, no going around that. But you can try and find one that doesn't immediately cost an arm and a leg, like a student-run free service or something set up by the eff or something.
Can someone please phone me and read this to me, I am too lazy to read.
I'm sorry i can't be bothered providing my phone number.
What is it with the stupid questions on here? Yeah like you should ask a bunch of nerds important legal questions online where none of them are qualified to answer you and give nothing but uninformed armchair opinions. So first stop is to not ask people who dont really know anything, especially people like that online. Cause online everything believes they know everything.
Call your attorney and stop asking dumb questions.
Probably too late for you, but my first thought was: Register a corporation, sell all of your business assets to that corporation for a dollar. It may be too late though; the courts tend to frown on this sort of thing, especially for small players. Plus, you may have been infringing as your sole proprietorship all these years and still be liable personally.
I hope you have $5,000-10,000 sitting around to find out if this actually applies to you and at least attempt to make them go away.
A question, though: was the letter sent using a traceable method? You'll want a lawyer anyway, but it would be nice to have plausible deniability that you every received this communication to begin with.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Install a browser add-on that automatically makes links from text URLs. Any browser worth shit will have one.
Given the content of the patent, near-term expiration, and the fact that you were specifically targeted as a small business unlikely to have significant resources, the entire business model of this "law firm" revolves around extorting "license fees" from scared small businesses like yours. If you voluntarily agree to pay them, they win. If you tell them to buzz off, they move on to find the next sucker.
What _doesn't_ fit in to their business model is taking even one person to court. The cost of a single suit would negate the free money "licensing fees" from potentially hundreds of suckers who just went ahead and wrote a check out of fear.
I'm assuming that your company has an attorney? This is the point where they need to lean heavily on their social contacts to find someone who specializes in either:
a) Patents
b) Tech
c) Both (preferably)
Otherwise, I'd ask as many competent people that you know/trust to go through their rolodexes for "friends of friends". As a last resort, I guess you could visit some of the places where prominent opensource folk hang out. Hell, amazing things have happened on Reddit, so see if you can get some traction there as well.
Whatever you do, DON'T JUST IGNORE IT. It is my understanding that if you don't show up to defend yourself, you can get a default judgement against you even if the claims are complete bullshit.
Good luck!
Isn't it a shame that there isn't a significant, statutory penalty for filing or threatening to file a false claim?
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
The Groklaw community will give you plenty of help. Just ask!
If it's a random contact (which it probably is ... and unjustifiable, at that), they won't try twice. If it's serious, you'll hear from them again.
Call your state bar association. Explain the situation as you have here, that you believe this law firm is possibly abusing the system in an effort to intimidate small businesses like yours into paying since that would likely cost less than hiring a law firm with expertise in patent law. Ask them to recommend some options, e.g., a non-profit legal center or a firm that wouldn't end up costing you much in return for sending a response to these guys basically just telling them to back off. You might also consider calling your state attorney general's office - they may someone tasked with helping small businesses in situations like this.
U.S. patents subsisting as of the effective date of the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (June 8, 1995), or whose applications were still pending on that date, expire 17 years after issue or 20 years after filing, whichever is longer. U.S. patents applied for after that date expire 20 years after filing, plus term extensions for undue examination delay or regulatory approval delay. The last of the MP3 patents, U.S. Patent 6009399, was filed in 1997 and is believed to expire in 2017 according to the list in this article.
Petty, wannabe muggers like these pick easy marks. Acknowledge receipt of their letters, tell them you dispute the claims and refuse to offer any further information. They're not going to initiate litigation against a small company that would fold due to legal costs before the case ever got to court.
Link.
You should always answer a lawyer who sends you a letter. Even a troll. Just make sure your answer is either useless to them or can be used to stall the case.
For example you could send a letter explaining that you don't believe your company infringes on said patent amd ask for clarification on why they believe otherwise.
When you get an answer to that, your next letter should be a series of questions asking how they know stuff about your company. Ask them where they got their information from, and ask them to provide a full report on all data collected about you or the company. They may very well be legally obligated to respond to inquiries about collected data.
Finally, ask them for instructions on how they believe you can stop infringing the patent. Explain you have no desire to infringe on it, that you believe you are indeed not, but that you would be happe to evaluate any suggestions they might have regarding ways to ensure the alleged infringement.
Each time wait 7-9 days before responding.
If they get difficult ask for a personal meeting at your office and make sure to explain how busy you are when you apoligize for being unavailable until ... approx 9-17 days later.
By the time you are done with this the patent expiation date will be closer and they will have wasted a ton of time. Also should the case ever get to trial you can show that you have honestly tried to cooperate in any way possible (short on paying for the infringement you don't believe is taking place).
It is almost as much fun as fooling nigerian scammers.
Put them to work. It isn't really that hard. :-)
- Jesper
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
Once you have notice of a potential claim, it's too late.
TANSTAAFL
Just tell Bob Zeidman to fuck off. Sooner or later he'll get the message.
Sounds like a scam to me.
Rule #1 of Lawsuit club is: We don't sign for certified letters...
Since you already signed for it, you've given up on plausible deniability.
For anyone else out there ever faced with this ask yourself this question: have you ever heard of any good EVER coming to anyone anyone via certified mail?
It's only ever bad news. If you don't sign for certified/registered mail, they can't prove they served you. Just upping the ante my making them send a sheriff or other legal official to serve notice properly in person will generally make you not worth the wide net patent trolls cast.
This is NOT legal advice, this is just reasonable.
Posting anon, cuz ... maybe I've just let a certified letter go unsigned/undelivered before.
In order to be found in violation of this patent, your violation must satisfy all the claims listed on the patent.
Claims #3, #24, #37, #46 refer to an analog voice signal, not present in WiFi data communications.
Claims #23, #36, #45, specifically refer to a modem
Additionally, most of this patent seems to be algorithmic. There are a number of claims that would be thrown out based on them describing
a mathematical function.
This would not survive a re-examination, but since it expires so soon, it wouldn't even make the short list.
Change your SSID as follows
Suck_It_Bitch!
But clicking is so HARRRRRRRrrdddddd!
But if it get serious, close the company, and open again with new name.
The patent in question is for "Side-channel communications in simultaneous voice and data transmission "
Does this apply to you? How? I run a business, and I use WiFi. I couldn't figure out how the legal threat applies to me. Can you think of how exactly this applies to you? If not, you could simply ignore the letter.
And while I am not an attorney, if you are going to get sued then sole-proprietorship is kinda risky if you have significant personal assets. Think about converting to a LLC. They can still take the company, but they can't take your house
... should be the next monkey sent to space by the Iranian Space Programm.
Unless you have some significant amount of money, and unless they have some kind of significant infringement claim, if neither of those are true, then you really have nothing for them to go after, combined with the fact that the patent expires soon, this seems like a desperate act. If they won't go after a business with a large amount of money, that should say a lot. If they are only looking for a quick settlement, then I agree with some of the previous posters, hire an experienced patent attorney to send them a strong Denial + Fuck You letter. Expect to pay for some 5 hours of attorney time for them to review the patent, your company, and develop some basic strategy should you get sued in the future. The letter may need to be written with a strategy in mind. These attorneys typically cost $275 to $500 per hour, and you may need one in your state, or in the state of Delaware.
Don't ignore them, if they do file a lawsuit, you want your record to show your consistent position from the very beginning. The patent details generic principles as applied to 1980s phone modem technology, it's not exactly a slam-dunk for them and if they aren't suing big guys with deep pockets, it's because they have little go on and they are looking for guys who are scared into quick settlement. They want to make $10,000 while paying for $275 of attorney time themselves. If that's the true situation, then Denial + Fuck You is going to be the end of the harassment. If they have deep pockets and are looking for blood, you are probably one of many being sued and the attorneys will waste your time and money for months or years to come. I'd say good luck, but who the fuck wants to hear that?
But this sounds like a pure and simple shakedown as just reading the patent requires a few things:
Analog signals. Digital signals. Voice. Data. All simultaneous.
How this all works into a WiFi system is certainly questionable, and a competent patent attorney should be able to help you send a suitably nasty letter to the other company telling them where to shove their patent. The key words here are 'analog' and 'voice'. Even if you were using VOIP (to cover the simultaneous voice component of the patent), VOIP is -all digital- and thus fails the analog component of the patent claim. In fact, the whole WiFi system is -all digital- as well, thus failing the analog/digital muxing component of the patent.
Fight it. What this company is doing is trying to milk whatever they can, while they can, looking for suckers to pay them for needless and worthless patents.
Would someone please write this reply for me?
Firefox and Chrome both support highlighting the url text and opening in a new tab without addons.
The article clearly states many facts that are questioned or stated as courses of action from the respondents in this thread.
He is explicitly asking how to find a lawyer.
He is not asking for advice technical or legal from Slashdotters, only how to find a lawyer!
He is already an S Corp, that's what a sole proprietorship corporation is.
To the OP. You don't state where you are so, this is the best I can offer.
Check with the EFF.
Look at this Inc magazine article.
Do not speak to these vultures at all. Only your lawyer should contact them.
I'm curious if you are providing WiFi service, using it in your software, or simply have WiFi in your office?
If you have time and want some lulz contact The Oatmeal.
You shouldn't have accepted the certified letter.
Certified letters have to have the sender noted on the slip that you get from the post office. Sometimes the post office doesn't do this (I have to remind my postal carrier all the time), but if you return the slip with "WHO IS THE SENDER?" written on it then they will fill it out properly and redeliver it.
If the sender isn't someone you know, or with whom you have a business arrangement (and from whom you might be expecting such a letter), don't take delivery. Don't send it back "refused delivery", just don't go get it. You can claim that you were out of town, never got the note, never had time to get it, or otherwise had a legitimate excuse. They can't do anything unless they have proof of "notice of service", which means that they have proof that they contacted you for the suit.
A certified letter is proof of service (ie - you were served with the letter), and they can use this to file suit against you.
If you don't accept the letter, they have to hire someone to personally hand you the notice. This costs them money - in my area the sheriff charges $80 for serving letters. The sheriff will get to it "when he gets to it", which in practice means anywhere from 2 weeks to never.
(As a personal anecdote, some bank in NYC decided from their internal records that they had been paying my NH property taxes for the last 5 years, and "would I just enclose a check for this and send it back"? I never accepted any of their certified letters, and they couldn't be bothered to send a person out to deliver the notice personally. Eventually they gave up. I had cancelled checks going back 5 years, but couldn't convince them otherwise because "their records showed payments for the last 5 years.")
This is one way to deal with frivolous lawsuits. If the lawsuit is genuine, then these sorts of barriers won't matter and you can address the legitimate legal issues. If the lawsuit is genuine and is something that you should address, then they should have no problem sending you information in a regular letter, which isn't considered proof of service.
I know this advice will cause the real lawyers here to cringe and complain, but then again they don't have any good ways to block frivolous suits.
S Corp and LLC fees in most states are maybe $50 or $100 per year, unless you're in fucking California. Pretty good deal if you only want to lose your business and not your house. That is, unless you've mortgaged your house to finance your business.
While I'm not very experienced in US and IP law, I don't understand how a user of a commercially available product can be held liable for using something he just bought. How should one be expected to ensure that every piece of hardware you buy on the open market is legal as far as IP and licensing goes? ... including damages payments for the company targeted in this way ...
Sounds to me like it's a complete scare tactics on the side of this lawyer, and should be punishable by law
But then, when has the legal system been sane and understandable for any person with at least half a brain ...
It works for the big boys, why not for you?
I'm not asking for legal advise from the Slashdot community. The question is where might one look for 'legal counsel' with the expertise to answer these types of legal questions as it relates to this inquiry. I would prefer to avoid legal fees, court cases, or license fees running the company into the ground.
Seriously, no idea what company you're with, what you do (other than use FOSS), how a Wifi tech license relates to your mission or any specific application your company develops. No one can offer you anything other than the value of the free advice you're soliciting.
Try the Yellow Pages, under psychics.
While it might not directly apply to you, this might still be worth to consider.
http://www.ted.com/talks/drew_curtis_how_i_beat_a_patent_troll.html
Trolls want to make money, you might want to make sure that they know that they won't get money from you (you rather spend it fighting them) and that you will not make it easy for them...
Pound sand, lawyer scum! Sincerely,
if you are actively involved in free software, you automatically qualify for free assistance from the Software Freedom Law Centre. phone them up, immediately. do not hang around. also you did the right thing asking around: do more of that, and specifically ask people to find prior art. look up what newegg did. the article was on here last week.
Tell them you have leased equipment from AT&T or Comcast but tell them you'll happily provide the customer service department of whichever huge company with legal department the size of New Jersey you'd like.
What's even more interesting is that IEEE doesn't list it as a WiFi related patent: http://standards.ieee.org/about/sasb/patcom/pat802_11.html
And considering IEEE doesn't tend to mess around about these sort of things. Actually you might want to contact them on this one. If it works once it could work on bigger players as well, so there is a chance they'd actually take a look at the patent and see if it's worth anything. While I doubt it'll help, it probably wouldn't hurt to try.
based on a very quick search, you can tell them to go fuck themselves. here's the patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US5506866?printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false
it's originally by AT&T. it's a patent on the means to combine simultaneous voice and data onto a single line. the submission date is in 1993.
however, if you look at this: http://www.tutorialspoint.com/gsm/gsm_overview.htm
you will see that GSM was started as far back as 1982. GSM includes GPRS, which includes a means to combine simultaneous voice and data into a single transmission.
there will be plenty more examples like this. i recommend that you find lots of examples, but any one of those examples can be used to tell these patent trolls to go fuck themselves.
How can software be "equipment and method related to the transmission of information" until combined with something to run it on? Maybe the user of the software is infringing, but surely not the provider of the software?
It really bugs me that software developers get chased for patent violations when software by itself doesn't do anything. If every last device that could execute the software were destroyed would it still violate a patent? Many software firms provide indemnity to their users against potential patent violation, but if someone runs a free software project then they explicitly do not.
There are four kinds of people in this world: cretins, fools, morons, and lunatics - Umberto Eco
I skimmed through the answers so far and didn't see this option presented.
We don't know the nature of your business, for instance, you might be making wifi optimization software but if it is the case that you really have nothing to do with the patent more particular than using wifi or creating software that uses wifi and that there is nothing that relates you to the patent more than millions of other companies, then they are just bulk trolling. In my startup days I got some of these and after consulting with an IP-specialized attorney, we decided not to respond at all. In our case we believed that they were just paying interns to go through tech business directories and sending bulk threats. Our theory was that they were little different than nigerian scam spammers. They are just looking for a "live" address that will respond. Any responses will get escalated to a first year associate who will initiate a standard series of shakedown threats hoping for a settlement. We bet that they weren't really tracking who responded and who didn't.
Not responding to the first inquiry is a calculated risk that should be only be considered with the guidance of an experienced attorney (at a minimum, the letter puts you into 'willful' infringement but for that to matter it has to go to court). Most of the time it is NOT a good option, but occasionally it should be considered. In our case, the troll went away when we acted like no one was home.
Also, stop reading Slashdot right now and go get incorporated. Seriously.
One my ex bitches wrote me a bad check...CA law puts a lot of power in your hands if you get a bad check. However you have to contact them by registered mail with the legal document saying they owe you double the amount. The best defense? All she did was refuse the letter. You power goes out the window. Nothing to do past that but small claims court. I have yet to see a penny that is owed me.
If you don't know the sender, don't accept registered mail, there is no legal requirement to do so. Return to sender, you've never been notified of whatever is in the letter, no problem. :)
Tweet, tweet, all id10t's out of the gene pool, open swim is over.
It might be a mistake to contact them in any way except as advised by legal counsel. I know nothing of the law in this area, but someone I know was once contacted by an organization trying to collect an alleged debt of a dead person, and the legal advice in that case was that to acknowledge the correspondence could make things more difficult.
Drew Curtis had some interesting ideas on fighting patent trolls. In cases, like this, you ask the patent trolls for explicit evidence of infringement, in which case, this puts the burden of proof on them. This isn't legal advice, but could provide some direction as to fighting back. Drew Curtis How I beat a patent troll
Talk to an attorney.
Its VERY serious. You can lose a lot of money by doing the wrong thing.
Slashdot, as a community, has shown in one patent article after another than there's literally no collective wisdom, from reading and interpreting patents, to offering advice. The worst thing you could do would be to take any here that is anything more than "talk to an attorney, and stop talking about it online until you do so".
http://tinyurl.com/aslunde
"Remember, politicians and diapers should be changed often and for the same reason."
Are you enjoying...your American dream ?
Just a consideration, but patent trolls normally approach those that are in a position to pay because it is best for them to gain an income and not just kill the cash-cow. This is now an unfortunate path in business, most tech companies will receive a claim and have to defend it and the resulting costs. You will need to talk to an IP lawyer and put forward a reasonable argument. A claim however (I am sure confirmed by a lawyer which I am not) will consider the request from a legal standpoint, is it a registered formal request or just an email that in all fairness may be ignored.
Since your company is in New Jersey, you probably have yourself, or have a collegue, that has an Uncle Vito. You need to get Uncle Vito to take care of things for you. Shakespere had it right. The world will be a much better place.
Seriously, as a Gedankenexperiment imagine what might happen if the next time one of these patent trolls set up shop every single one of them was gunned down within a week of them mailing their first extortion letter. I'd be willing to bet that you'd have a lot of people who were considering this line of business suddenly decide that getting a real job looked pretty good.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
This was completely avoidable. If you had 12 old battle hardened farts on your board any one of them would have told you how to set things up to be 1) invisible to predators and 2) judgement proof. Where was your insurance agent, your banker, your controller, your auditor and your lawyer? How did you fall into this trap?
I could tell you how to fix this one problem, but I won't. You are prey. Everybody in the room knows this but you. If one predator found you, others will too. You will have more of these problems. Your whole business setup is ripe to be plucked. You are blind to all of this.
Why are you handling legal matters? Were you soldering yesterday and building a website the day before?
There is capital and labor. You produce widgets. The CEO's job is to protect the company and to produce consistent increasing dividends for the shareholders.
Why are you in business?
" we are a small free software company" Offer them 5% of gross from software sales. Agree to 10 if they reimburse you for attorney's fees. Find a good attorney who enjoys this kind of thing, they are out there!
I know I'm responding to AC, but I'll bite:
He did NOT "ask a bunch of nerds important legal questions". He asked how he should go about finding a qualified lawyer.
Reading comprehension. It's fun. Try it sometime.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
I'm going to take a stab here and say they are seeking this out of something that you produce, rather than something you use, right? I mean, if they're stating that by using WI-FI in your office space, you're in violation of their patent, and should thusly pay them. Rather than say, since you're a 'small free software company', and unless your software specifically relates to WI-FI in some matter of fact, how does their declaration even relate to you?
Yes, it sounds like they are a troll. However, as such fishing expeditions proceed, I'd first logically extrapolate HOW they could tie whatever it is you provide, or use, into their so called patent violation. And then, after a days worth of lost work doing that, go find find a patent lawyer.
To go fuck themselves. The patent expires in 2 months.
Seems to me the easiest solution would be to send a letter stating that your small business network is based around a PowerLine / Ethernet solution and does not use WiFI and therefor you are not in violation of any such patent. If this is an actual company /business and they demand to see your network, ask to see the court order and show them the couple of computers that you have recently cabled together with a PowerLine solution.
Just my two cents,
Post anonymously on Slashdot, and sue everyone on here for damages after giving you horrible advice.
IANAL. This is not legal advice. If you follow my advice it will cost you tons of money. Disregard everything stated here by me.
Many businesses are receiving letters like this. It's a fraud.
You might want to read this article:
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Cisco-Motorola-Netgear-Aim-Cannons-At-WiFi-Patent-Troll-121594
And this:
http://www.techdirt.com/blog/wireless/articles/20121009/01444620656/cisco-motorola-netgear-team-up-to-expose-wifi-patent-bully.shtml
"Last year, we wrote about a crazy patent troll, named Innovatio, who had sued a ton of restaurants and hotels, claiming that anyone who used WiFi was violating its patents. It was even claiming that individuals who use WiFi at home infringed too -- but that it wouldn't go after them "at this time." Instead, it preferred to focus on shaking down tons of small businesses, offering to settle for $2,500 to $3,000 -- which is cheaper than hiring a lawyer to fight it, no matter how bogus. We noted at the time that Motorola and Cisco had gone to court to try to get a declaratory judgment to protect its customers. "
Read this paper: Startups and Patent Trolls by Prof. Colleen V. Chien, Santa Clara University School of Law.
I am not a crackpot.
Maybe the best course of action when dealing with these types of law firms is to actually kill the principles of the firm. This will send a clear message to the legal profession: watch it or you might be next.
Additionally, most of this patent seems to be algorithmic. There are a number of claims that would be thrown out based on them describing a mathematical function.
hehe, good luck on that one. If you want to patent an algorithm, all you have to do is prepend your algorithm with this statement, "A method for......"
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I once received copies of subpoenas in the mail that had been sent to the local utilities asking for copies of canceled checks. After looking into why I had received these, I found that I had a default judgment against me for some bills that I owed. Seems they mailed a summons to me, but sent it to a previous address I no longer lived at. According to the records on the county web site, the summons was returned "refused/undeliverable" and so they simply issued a default judgment against me, and it wasn't until after the trial that they decided to start sending things to my current address.
So, it seems, not receiving the letter isn't good enough, though I certainly agree that it should be.
If the patent troll has stated exactly what patent they are exerting and on what equipment, then I would be tempted to contact the manufacturer of said equipment, since if the license is valid, then they are likely already licensees of said patent. If not, then you know you need to work out if the patent is valid
I would suggest pinging te EFF and see what thy have to say. The sad truth is thar due to the way the US legal system works, only the lawyers are likely be the winners. Patent trolling is a current form of legal extortion, where few people in power want accept something is broken.
BTW which patent are they refererring to?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
3D Printable Ammo Clip Skirts New Proposed Gun Laws
Newspaper That Published Gun-Owners List Hires Armed Guards
Smart Guns To Stop Mass Killings
New York Paper Uses Public Records To Publish Gun-Owner Map
New York Pistol Permit Owner List Leaked
Submission: Ask Slashdot: What to do about patent trolls seeking Wifi license fees?
The algorithm that chose the list of related links to post just beneath the story summary appears to have read my mind!
"In a simultaneous voice and data communication system" So what does this have to do with WIFI? Is someone somehow attaching a "voice signal" to the wifi traffic?
Can someone please phone me and read this to me, I am too lazy to read.
Wow. And I thought I was fscked up today. I didn't wake up until 1500h. You people give me hope for the week.
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit
When you absolutely positively have to defend your software at all costs, accept no substitute.
https://www.softwarefreedom.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center
Move to Russia and then sue the patent troll.
I'm pretty sure that's not right (but see my nick).
The claims are each enforceable in their own right, but typically get chained together ("Claim 2: The method in claim 1, further ...").
If one claim is not relevant, then only those claims depending on it are irrelevant.
Wired ethernet is faster and more reliable.. just sayin...
You're a small software company. How are you possibly violating a wifi patent? (I though CSIRO invented wifi...) Have they listed what product of yours violates their patent? No? No problem.
about this is they aren't just going away. They target the little guy and they want them all. If they make life difficult for you, you can make life difficult for them. You can waste their time too.
Ignore them. Using this patent (IANAL, but still) they could sue anyone using the net. Even using a protocol over a (par of) UART(s) could be a reason. If they can't be ignored, hire an IP-lawyer and counter-sue for damages (reputation, legal costs, lost revenue, etc).
Timeo hominem unius libri
Yeah, this exactly makes no sense if it's related to WiFi. And there's more than enough prior art on this one anyway just by looking at the title...
People need to stop feeding the patent trolls. People should not pay trolls a dime. In fact, people should be counter suing trolls and get the DOJ involved in this to nail their filthy hides to the underside of the bridge as a warning to other would be patent trolls. Write your Congressional critters and sign this petition:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/make-patent-trolls-pay-all-costs-associated-their-frivolous-lawsuits-if-they-lose/gWPpVYMt
Because its not, it's about a system that simultaneously transmits voice as analog and data as digital. Which wifi doesn't. It's aimed at modem use on PSTN lines (I think multiplexing it to let you be on the phone at the same time as online?)
http://www.google.com/patents/US5506866
Several big wifi manufacturers are already aware of and responding to these legal threats:
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Cisco-Motorola-Netgear-Aim-Cannons-At-WiFi-Patent-Troll-121594
I myself like the Klingon approach:
"FIND HIM AND KILL HIM!!"
End of humerous and completely non-serous comment. BAWK!
Ignore it - a lot of Americans have these revolutionary gun fantasies to compensate for the reality of them having to put up with having their balls squeezed by an authority figure each time they fly.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/index.htm
Even if we take the (rather far-fetched IMO) view that this patent is actually enforceable, how is the end user liable? Shouldn't responsibility for this be on the manufacturer of the access point and/or the controller chip contained therein?
It describes ISDN. In fact it is referenced by a later (1995) patent which mentions ISDN by name. Having actually used ISDN at one point for my network uplink it is pretty clear that's what it is talking about. (Well, maybe its that my dad wrote a bunch of the ISDN code for ATT/Bell Labs and when he heard I was getting ISDN I got details on how it works -- couldn't just go look it up in wikipedia back then!)
Unless your little OSS company produces an app which does something similar -- voice and data at once, its probably not going to be hard (but may be expensive) to defend yourself.
Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
The patent in question appears to be held by AT&T. IANAL, but presuming this law firm actually represents AT&T(it's possible they are just trying to scam you) and presuming that the idea of you violating said patent isn't laughably ridiculous(ie your product doesn't connect to any kind of network whatsoever, not just doesn't infringe said patent) you're pretty much screwed. The odds of you beating without going bankrupt are pretty near to zero so find yourself a lawyer, find out if the law firm actually represents AT&T, and find out what you need to do to either license the wretched thing or if there's a legal way for you to bin the product.
Cap the mofos.
Opera, too.
It's never so bad that it can't get worse.
I think this is a good response: http://jackofkent.blogspot.ru/2010/05/reply-given-in-arkell-v-pressdram.html
Your local ham radio (or Amateur Radio if you prefer) operator's club will quickly be able to decifer this bogus patent & provide any lawyer you may choose with valuable ammunition in fighting these trolls. This may include prior art for patent invalidation, expert testimony for hearings, & might even contain a lawyer or two. As a bonus, you may also find additional users &/or developers. For more information on finding a club or events near you, check out http://www.arrl.org/ for more information.
http://www.amberscope.com/?kcJTj5uA finds 26 potential prior art patents, I have marked up 7 candidates worth further investigation. Now to read them all...
Option 1: Agree, and pay up. However, the licence agreement you sign will probably be walled and worded so that only the one patent under discussion is covered in the settlement. When the troll comes back with another vague-sounding patent, because you paid up on the first without a fight, you are back in the same situation.
Option 2: Tell them to print a copy of the licence agreement, scrunch it up and insert it into an appropriate cavity on their CEO.
Option 3: Ignore it. The troll has probably sent out quite a few of these letters, and the best way to get their attention is to send back some kind of a response (either the "yes we will pay" or "no we will not pay" type).
Option 4: Several people have already listed a few law firms with people specialized in IP law, and asking around will typically find you one who is able/willing to take on a case like this on a pro-bono or no win-no fee basis. However, I would suggest asking what happens in the event that you win the case and the troll is required to pay your costs, but the troll gets wound up on the day of the judgement as a shell company with no assets.
One other thing - I would suggest contacting the maker of the wi-fi gear you are using. On the up-side (ideal world), they should be willing to get their legal people to deal with the issue as it will directly affect their future product sales. If they say "your lawsuit, your problem", then you know they are a bunch of idiots not deserving of your money, so you know not to buy their stuff in future.
http://www.google.com/patents/US5506866
Can someone please phone me and read this to me, I am too lazy to read. I'm sorry i can't be bothered providing my phone number.
I called to read it to you, and you sent me straight to voicemail. You ought to be more grateful and quit putting people out of their way just for your own selfish amusement, you useless tub of shit. Go fuck yourself and die in a fire.
Would someone please write this reply for me?
Hello, my name is Anonymous Coward. I hate black people and Jews and I pooped in my pants this morning and smell funny. Would you like to have sex with my mother? I'm getting really tired of having to service her ever since Dad went to jail for fucking the pitbull.
... the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram
Sound advice. Make them file an actual suit, Should they actually do so, the OP could get his lawer to file a 3rd-party complaint against his wifi manufacturers (+ other big manufactureres potentialy infringing). This would drag the big guns into the fight, see if the troll actually wants to tangle with cisco & co in the courtroom.
you have moved your mouse, please reboot to make this change take effect
http://eff.org/
THINK! It's patriotic
The New Jersey Bar Association, as many bar associations in the US, provide a Lawyer Referral Service for precisely for this reason. Persons unfamiliar with attorneys might seek referral information from a referral service (the referral service itself does NOT provide legal advice). The New Jersey Bar Association (you mentioned NJ in your post) is readily available at http://www.njsba.com/for-the-public/lawyer-referral-service.html . When contacting them, have your information organized, listen to what they ask you, provide a concise but adequate summary of facts, provide them with several contact methods for you, make sure you know what your responsibility is (e.g., do you contact the attorneys or do they contact you), and seek clarification if you are unsure about what the referral service tells you. But remember, the referral service does NOT and probably CANNOT provide legal advice.
While many SlashDotters provide amusing and interesting (from a creativity perspective) comments, the relevant advice is promptly seeking competent legal advice from a lawyer licensed in your jurisdiction.
Although I am a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
I am a patent litigation attorney. The patent holder wants money from you. They probably sent hundreds if not thousands of identical letters to other companies without any apparent regard for whether your company makes money or not. Call the lawyer who sent you the letter, explain that you are a small free software company, that you make very little money, and that you have no appreciable assets to satisfy any judgment. They will say something like "we will get back to you" and probably never call you again.
It is just business. Once they know your well is dry, they will turn their attention elsewhere.
"In order to be found in violation of this patent, your violation must satisfy all the claims listed on the patent.
"
Very wrong. If you satisfy only a single *independent* claim you violate the patent. The dependent claims (that is, the ones that refer to one above, are there for the patentee/applicant for limitation of the independent claim should that not be patentable).
You violate an independent claim if you do EVERYTHING that is in that *independent* claim. If you do, the case is clear-cut. If you don't, you ma If only it were that easy: There could be some leeway in the interpretation of the claim that makes that the claim is interpreted a bit broader.
Do mind that a patent can have more than one independent claim (three is not uncommon in the US).
If you infringe an independent claim, it is worthwhile to figure out whether more relevant prior art exists than considered during the patent procedure. A list of the prior art considered is found on the front page of the patent. There is a chance that the patent got granted broader than warranted. It could be that you don't infringe after limitation of the claim.
Bert
Patent attorney (not a lawyer; that's something different).
Kthnxbai
If they want to prove otherwise, they've got some work to do !
I fail to understand how purchasing a wifi adaptor from a third party vendor, who bought from a distributor, who bought from a manufacturer who will have had to conform and pay any patent fees applicable, suddenly becomes the problem of someone who had no part in its' manufacture.
Then again, I'm in the UK, and we haven't got quite *that* mad yet.
It's not just clicking. This UI travesty actually forces you to actually drag your mouse and then RELEASE the damn mouse button. Criminy.
Do get qualified legal help. On first glance it is specific and demands both end points be identical. If you have not disclosed the internals (whoops open source) there is no way you have violated their patent unless you have an interoperability product.
If you have shipped product you are in a different boat than just getting ready to ship.
If you have venture cap kick it their way quickly.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
That'll shut them down for good.
Your product is "open" so shutting the doors of the old company and opening a new company is one strategy.
I.e. after consulting with councle for routine reasons it was clear that the old structure was ill chosen and ....
Correctly done it is then possible to make many copies of one letter, a reply letter that the business is gone, poof, defunct....
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
Go to www.martindale.com
click on the "I want to find a lawyer or law firm."
type "patent" in the area of practice, and check the "featured peer review rated" box.
put in your city and state (or maybe just your state if not in at least a mid-sized city.)
Look through some bios for people who seem to have the right technical background, and do litigation.
This doesn't really help sort among qualified people, but you find a qualified person.
That probably puts you into the EFF's area of competence.
If they don't have continuing cases of this sort, they probably know of other people in your situation - approximate or precise - and will know who is already dealing with related cases. There's probably no need to go around re-inventing the legal wheel on this, and joining up with some other people who are being attacked by these trolls is likely to reduce individual costs and beat the trolls harder.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
It's not a question of the *burden* of 3/4 mouse clicks, it's leaving oneself open to being patent trolled for the process of making those clicks. Seriously, can we take that risk?
Nothing in 802.11 would meet the "wherein the step of transmitting further includes the step of adding to each symbol of each symbol block a signal point before transmission. " limitation (exemplary claim 1). The "signal point" is taught as, "This voice signal point defines the magnitude and angle of a voice signal vector about the origin of the signal space. The data symbol and the voice signal vector are then added together to select a resultant N-dimensional signal point, which is then transmitted to a far-end modem."
Keep shtum. If they communicate again, ask for a claim chart.