Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Surface Pro Reviews Arrive
The release date is approaching for Microsoft's Surface Pro tablet, and reviews for the new device have started appearing. The Surface Pro differs from the Surface in that it runs a full version of Windows 8 Pro, rather than the tablet-centric Windows RT. It also has much beefier hardware specs: 4GB RAM, an Intel Core i5 CPU, and a full HD display with 10-point multitouch. Ars describes it as having the expected good performance at the expected costs of heat, noise, and battery life. "This is not an all-day machine. Surface RT probably is. But Surface Pro is not." The review praises the screen and the stylus, but points out some odd scaling issues as well. The Verge's review also mentions the scaling, and notes the strangeness of dealing with issues inherent to a Windows desktop OS — like antivirus — on a tablet. BGR looks at the big picture, calling the Surface Pro Microsoft's "declaration of war" on its hardware partners. All three reviews dwell on how the Surface Pro exists at the intersection of laptop and tablet, and doesn't quite fulfill either role. Ars says, "From the tablet perspective, Surface Pro is not acceptable. It gets too hot for a hand-held device, its battery life is woefully inadequate, and it's too thick and heavy to be comfortable to hand hold for long sessions. ... From a laptop perspective, Surface Pro falls down too. The traditional laptop has a stiff hinge to hold the screen at an angle of your choosing. ... In practice, the Surface RT and Surface Pro have a bigger footprint on my lap even than my old 15-inch MacBook Pro. And if I move a little, whomp, the screen drops off the back of my knees and folds out of sight." The Verge adds, "The real dealbreaker for me was that it's just unusable in my most common position — sitting on my couch, feet on the coffee table, with the computer on my lap."
I've read the Anan review and it mentions pretty much everything that's in the summary. Though he puts a lot of positive spin on some things - the fans and the heat for example. He says you can hear the fans but it is not a problem. And proceeds to say the case hits 40 degrees but that it's not uncomfortable for it to be that hot. I have a hard time believing that.
I think the idea has some promise but a lot of problems in this current form.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Wow. That review was terrible. It also does nothing to refute the facts that the battery life sucks, it overheats, and it's a shitty tablet and a shitty laptop together. Please astroturf elsewhere
This has potential to rid me of having a separate computer and tablet. The current Pro seems like it will work as a development platform for future applications; the consumers will start buying it more once it gets thinner and lighter.
Why not buy a laptop? They weigh 5 lbs... that's light. They're usable. They run all the software desktops run because they're the same thing. Battery life can reach 6-10 hours depending on OS and model. They come with a USB port (Nexus 7 complaint).
If Google comes out with a phone or tablet it's simply fostering adoption and providing some reference for other hardware makers, if Micro$oft does it they're "declaring war" on their hardware partners. Utter stupidity.
Also, why would anyone think the Surface Pro was supposed to run on battery all day...? Clearly this is a workstation/tablet hybrid that leans farther to the tablet side.
In the longer run Intel will have move entirely into this market, and you'll find that people no longer have PCs at the office, they've got 'surface pro 3' with full blown M$ Office on it - and by that time it will run 10 hours on a charge.
Personally I thought this was going to happen sooner via systems like the Atrix phone and dock - they tried this at SIEMENS a few years back but Android was really the blocking issue, not the hardware. I love my Android phone, but as a full blown operating system it's got a long way to go.
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No, it's a heavy, non-portable tablet with poor battery life and a requirement for virus checkers, rebooting after installation, frequent security updates, and a bizarre, unintuitive OS.
The issue with the surface is, it isn't a tablet and it isn't a laptop. For the price of it, you can get an awesome ultrabook. You can also get a comparable tablet for a lot less.
I think people want a tablet that they can use a keyboard on, but I don't think that this is it. MS has tried for over a decade to convince us it's was of doing a tablet is the right way - and it has been a failure.
I haven't seen any enterprises adopting them, so I am unsure where they actually plan to sell them
I don't think the surface is a "bad idea" it is just terribly executed.
I can't help thinking Microsoft still doesn't really get design. They talked a lot ahead of the launch of this device about the fact that their goal was a design without compromise - see this for example http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/31/designing-for-metro-style-and-the-desktop.aspx
But what the mean by no compromise is entirely different from what Apple means by no compromise. Apple designed the iPad to be the a compromise-free tablet - the best *tablet* they could come up with. And it was, and is a brilliant tablet. What it isn't is a laptop. Microsoft's idea of no compromise is a device that can be both a laptop and a tablet. What you end up with is an entirely compromised product - too heavy and power hungry to be any use as a tablet, it is also impossible to use on your lap making it an entirely rubbish laptop.
Every review I've seen says the same thing:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324900204578285963270503862.html?mod=djemptech_t
"It’s too hefty and costly and power-hungry to best the leading tablet, Apple’s full-size iPad. It is also too difficult to use in your lap."
http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/05/microsoft-surface-pro-review/
"When trying to be productive, we wished we had a proper laptop and, when relaxing on the couch, we wished we had a more finger-friendly desktop interface"
http://techland.time.com/2013/02/05/review-microsoft-surface-pro-the-surface-thats-more-pc-than-tablet/
"It’s bulkier than Surface RT because its components require more interior space. Microsoft’s stated battery life is five hours, compared to eight for Surface RT. Even the AC adapter is portlier."
And it's main selling point it the fact that it's two inferior devices in one.
There's a key difference: Google devices are built by partners, though they are marketed (badly) by Google. Surface devices are built directly by MS.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
My god, I just used "it's" instead of "its". Slashdot is indeed making me dumber, just as I had suspect.
How is, "shorter battery life", "vents", "to warm to hold", "unstable on a lap" FUD? Look if you don't like iPads fine, don't like iPads. But don't go slamming the review for telling the truth. Microsoft creating this abortion of a device to try to marry two technologies, which are separate technologies. We can argue that iPads are too expensive and have other short comings. But there are plenty of Android tablets that can fill the gap. Heck an Asus is much better than this Microsoft device.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
$1,100???? My daughter just got a Lenovo, about 3 lbs, 15" screen, delivered for $350. Why would I want to spend 3x the money for a smaller screen and a worse keyboard?
I can equip most of my family with nice laptops for the price of one Surface. :headscratch:
But what's a tablet, besides a giant cell phone that doesn't make calls,is much too large to fit in a pocket, and with terrible battery life, or a tiny, unwieldy, badly crippled laptop?
I don't respond to AC's.
While you may be correct, in this case because of Microsoft's nearly 40 year history as not really being a computer hardware vendor (not talking about mice here), they are telling those they partnered with for decades that their products are inferior and Microsoft can do it better.
Google hasn't been around long enough to create that sort of legacy and has both partnered with and created their own hardware along the way.
I just don't see this as an apples to apples comparison for you to make. But hey, your opinion is as good as anyone's.
I think that's a case of semantics ;).
The Google 'partner' that builds the phone isn't making a profit anymore than the actual manufacturer making the RT and Pro, plus they aren't 'marketed badly' by Google - that's is not their purpose. Neither is it the purpose of the Surface RT or Surface Pro.
It's like complaining back when nVidia and ATI made cards that they were poisoning their hardware partners when nothing could be further from the truth (they no longer need to do this because of the ubiquity of their chipsets.)
Micro$oft is simply putting out a reference design to generate initiative.
I tell you, I'd love to find a way to dual boot the thing and get OpenSUSE on it - otherwise it's a 1080p touchscreen laptop (which is moderately cool.)
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Oh give me a break, Dynabook? Is this Microsoft "marketing" in action? Yes Yes I know the term came somewhere else, but I am doing a jab. I happen to own a tablet (Android and iPad), smart phone (iPhone and Android), and computers (OSX and Linux). The reality of the matter is that the Surface Pro is NOT a device to get things done. It is not a device to program, unless you edit with a text editor, and don't want to compile and debug. I have gone through many of these iterations and the reality is that all of these devices are separate devices. The idea that Microsoft thinks you can create an all in one is just plain stupid.
I have bought more hardware than most and owned my first laptop in 1991. And the reality is that it is like NoSQL databases, where you can have two of three attributes, not all. So you can either have battery and power, but not lightweight ease of carry. Or you can have lightweight and battery, but not power. Only Microsoft would create a half arsed job to try and create something with all three. In fact if I had to critique Microsoft it is their lunatic attitude that you can create software that follows the 80/20 rule and still be cool.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Because I'm currently using a Fujitsu Stylistic ST-4121 running Windows XP Tablet PC Edition and need to keep my Wacom stylus --- I use it for:
- annotating .pdfs
- drawing and sketching using ArtRage, Autodesk SketchBook, FutureWave SmartSketch, Creaturehouse Expression and Macromedia FreeHand
- designing fonts using FontForge
- lightweight programming using Runtime Revolution (I find drawing interface elements easier w/ the stylus)
- writing papers using LyX and WinTeXshell which are then typeset using LaTeX (I prefer to write rather than type)
- notetaking w/ handwriting recognition using Evernote
If the Surface Pro had longer battery life or a replaceable battery, I'd get one. If it's possible to run Mac OS X on it, I'd be tempted, until then, I guess I'm back to pricing a larger SSD for my current machine.
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
You're even dumber than you suspected. You correctly used "it's" in your original post, though you managed to misspell "is."
Wow. That review was terrible. It also does nothing to refute the facts that the battery life sucks, it overheats, and it's a shitty tablet and a shitty laptop together. Please astroturf elsewhere
While that may have been astroturfing, as always Anandtech produced the most informative, data-filled review of a tech product. No other source ever, ever, ever comes close to Anandtech. It's absurd that Slashdot would ever mention a hardware review and skip Anandtech.
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
TLDNR summary of Anandtech review:
As a tablet it, uh... has really good benchmark results... for a tablet. If you put up with all the heat, battery life and bulk issues it's awesome!
As a laptop it, uh... has really good benchmark results... for a tablet. If you put up with all the ergonomic problems and the crap touchpad, it's awesome!
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
My god, I just used "it's" instead of "its". Slashdot is indeed making me dumber, just as I had suspect.
Suspected.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
My big complaint with the review in the post is about how it fits in your lap.
In practice, the Surface RT and Surface Pro have a bigger footprint on my lap even than my old 15-inch MacBook Pro. And if I move a little, whomp, the screen drops off the back of my knees and folds out of sight.
It isn't a laptop and you aren't going to use it as a laptop. Sure, it has a keyboard, but if you're sitting on the couch with you feet up, you'd be using it in tablet mode. But, this is also why I don't think I'll have a laptop as my main "goof off" computer. I'm not going to post to Slashdot or Facebook or Twitter with a device that only has an on-screen keyboard (my phone has a physical keyboard for "heavier" text input). So, I'll likely still have some sort of laptop / dockable tablet so that I can input text. But I'm not going to use the Surface keyboard cover as my keyboard because it doesn't provide the laptop clamshell footprint --- which works quite well.
The rest of the complaints are fairly valid. The Surface Pro is interesting hardware, but I'm not sure they're using it the way it will really be used, so I question any usability points in the review.
I would have thought the issues with perching the Surface were obvious from the moment photos of it appeared that showed how the stand worked. It might be fine on a desk but it would be a nuisance perched on the lap, or a small lecture hall table, or a clipback tray, or sitting in bed etc. Eventually Asus transformer devices will appear for Windows 8 Pro and I think at that point people can enjoy the best of both worlds - providing the keyboard dock counteracts the weight of tablet bit and doesn't tip over.
I can't help thinking Microsoft still doesn't really get design.
Nothing to do with compromise. Its unashamedly, about using their Desktop [and Office] monopoly, to muscle there way onto mobile [smartphone and tablet] after failing have a compelling product to gain relevance in the new sector, by pretending they are an ecosystem(sic).
It hardly takes a genius to see that the a separation of both Tablet and Desktop for in both hardware and software, rather than some hybrid affair would be an improvement...but its not going to win against Android, or ironically ChromeOS.
If you're sitting on a couch with your feet on a table, you're not doing any serious work,
Because there is a mandated sitting position for serious work?
I agree and the summary is very negatively biased. I clicked through to the BGR article expecting to find a scathing summary, when in fact it was quite the opposite.
"On an island, the Surface Pro is a fantastic premium computer that is portable, versatile and capable. It is priced fairly and it offers novel features that provide clear advantages over rival devices. But in a market where interest in personal computers is declining and Windows 8 is struggling to gain traction, I fear the Surface Pro might not be the right product right now.
The Surface Pro is not good fit for everyone, but those who do purchase Microsoft’s new tablet for work or for personal use — whether they number in the thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions — will not be disappointed."
True. However you don't want a 104F notebook sitting on your lap. It makes you sweat quite a bit and is uncomfortable. It absolutely won't burn your or anything like that. But it sucks to have a machine that warm on your lap.
It's a shitty laptop and a shitty tablet. Oh and 41-43Gb of OS gobbling up your SSD is simply a frigging joke.
Nothing new here..... move along.
"TV, a medium as it is neither rare nor well done." Ernie Kovacs
Data-filled indeed. Pages of benchmark results, most of them for some obscure web benchmark (WebXPRT). The results show in so many ways that an i5 tablet is much faster than all those ARM tablets. I learned very little from that review that was not also covered in other less technical reviews. Basically Anandtech is throwing softballs at the companies that the site depends on to a large degree. I can understand that, but they do not exactly deserve praise for it. As for the Ars review, I found it excellent. The extensive coverage of the display scaling issues was the first time I ever read a comprehensive explanation of how this is handled in Windows. Very informative!
and you'll find that people no longer have PCs at the office, they've got 'surface pro 3' with full blown M$ Office on it - and by that time it will run 10 hours on a charge.
From what I've seen, I'm sure some technology execs are smoking the same thing you are. However, I see no point in the future where a tablet is going to replace my workstation. I can see myself having a tablet to augment my workstation (e.g. having manuals on a tablet instead of on paper), but the actual work is always going to be done on a proper computer.
http://blog.nexusuk.org
But hey, your opinion is as good as anyone's.
A man's reach should exceed his grasp... ;)
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dead-end for anyone who wants to write, program or get real work done
I don't think anyone is getting their best work done, on a Surface...I'm not really sure why anyone would imply real work cannot be done on a Nexus.
should have more ram or at least at upgrade choice.
4GB is small now days.
I think the idea has some promise but a lot of problems in this current form.
Unfortunately ARM solves many of those hardware problems (apart from needing a flat surface), but then that would be that other unsuccessful product Windows launched recently...the one with RT in its name.
Ballmer's Microsoft sat on a wall, Ballmer's Microsoft had a great fall. And all the Company's Fanbois and all the Company's Money, couldn't put Ballmer's Microsoft back together again. Linux be nimble, Linux be quick. Linux jumped over Microsoft's Candlestick.
Why wouldn't you be doing serious work? More real work is done in that position than hunched over a desk.
In either case your right. Despite outdated notions here on slashdot. The iPad is better choice for all tablet use cases and most laptop use cases than the surface pro.
If it indeed runs too hot to hold in hand, then no, there is no hyperbole.
Yeah, the imaginary tablet in your mind will perhaps be much better, if and when it exists, but Surface Pro, the product in actual existence, the product this submission is about, is a heavy, overheating piece of shit.
TL;DR No hyperbole, Surface pro is crap.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
The hardware is interesting. But...
-it's got the battery life of a laptop
-it weighs as much as an ultrabook
-it doesn't have a proper keyboard
-you can't balance it on your lap
-it's too heavy to hold in one hand
-it's got a full blown wasteful Windows installation that eats greatly into the available disk space
-has cooling vents
To me that reads: all the drawbacks of both a laptop and a tablet
It propably is an amazing piece of kit and I honestly want something like that more than my next breath. But I would have preferred if they had gone the way Asus went with the Transformer line. Detachable clamshell keyboard with an extra battery. No need for a sleeve. Does not tip over as easily. All the benefits of a laptop and a tablet. Should have been a winner. Maybe the next batch.
Also I'm not quite sure about the choice of CPU.
I love the convergence of tablet and laptop. That is a truly, truly great thing. But normal laptop innards conveniently rearranged will not quite cut it. We are currently moving away from the old Intel x86 architecture and into happy RISC land for a reason. My Transformer has replaced my notebook for all but heavy typing and dev work. For everything else I actually prefer the plucky little bugger and take only that with me on business trips. No worries.
20 minutes into the future
I have my shower set to around 35. My wife bumps it up to around 40 but I think she is crazy.
And I'm a mammal. So I also give off heat. I prefer the objects that I allow to come into contact with my skin to be cooler than I am or at the most to come to the same temperature I am.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
A tablet with an Intel i5 CPU, HD4000 GPU and 4GB of RAM for less money, even without the digitiser? Pray, do enlighten us.
Absolutely the quieter, cooler, more portable, with an efficient CPU Nexus 7 for a sixth of the price.
You can twist anything to be undesirable by asking questions like that. What's a car, besides a horse needing gasoline and which can't be eaten after it dies of old age? What's a hoover, besides a brush needing electricity? What's a house, besides a tent which cannot be moved as necessary?
"First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist..."
Plus, what exactly are you referring to as crap?
The hardware's not crap - although it doesn't serve my needs.
The OS isn't crap - although I primarily use *nix.
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My 2009 N900 had more disk space and (replaceable) battery life. How is this the pinnacle of the computing evolution? Could you use it today as main computer with 23-89gb of usable disk space? Did we hit Moore's law limit and bounced back?
But is the same temperature as a jacuzzi. TOTC.
I come here for the love
Because I'm currently using a Fujitsu Stylistic ST-4121 running Windows XP Tablet PC Edition and need to keep my Wacom stylus
That's OK, you have an upgrade path to the extremely reasonably priced when refurbished Fujitsu Lifebook T900. ~900 for Core i7, 4GB RAM, Win7, and combo 8-way multitouch and wacom pen. After much hemming and hawing that's what I selected as my lady's next (now current) laptop and while it's a little chunky and heavy for a laptop, it's a fantastic machine for art, and it has a replaceable battery. This would be a much better move for you than Surface, because it's much less of a ripoff and you won't be forced into such a shitty OS.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
If you're sitting on a couch with your feet on a table, you're not doing any serious work, so why wouldn't you just use an iPad anyway while you're fapping to furry porn?
Just because it's called a laptop doesn't mean it's best to use it on your lap.
You can't watch furry porn on an iPad. No Flash, you see? Also this thing is to heavy to be used with one hand. So you might have to hire some help while you hold that thing with both hands.
MS obviously has designed this thing for heavily mutated deviants. Has Flash, but you will need three hands.
20 minutes into the future
What exactly do you consider a proper computer?
What do you mean by actual work?
I have a dual hex core (24 hardware threads) 26GB dev box in my office, a new Mac Mini, and a Dell Touch screen all-in-one - I develop on all of them.
The majority of people at a company (that isn't an ISV) don't need anything more powerful than an iPad to do everything they've got to do.
The Surface Pro is going to give them an iPad-ish form factor except it will run Windows 7/8 software that already exists - That's a pretty huge win for IT departments, especially given that they can provision the devices with group policies/AD.
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If you're sitting on a couch with your feet on a table, you're not doing any serious work, so why wouldn't you just use an iPad anyway while you're fapping to furry porn?
Just because it's called a laptop doesn't mean it's best to use it on your lap.
For other people like us it's not a common position. Most of my time is spent sitting at a desk or table with my laptop, a few times I've been seen with the said laptop on my lap on the couch. I want a device like this because it's a laptop that I can work on the majority of the time and still use it to moonlight as an tablet.
If you want a tablet just buy a tablet.
did you forget to take your meds?
If it indeed runs too hot to hold in hand, then no, there is no hyperbole.
I haven't seen a review that says anything bad about heat, I've read and heard that if you lay it down on a blanket it can get hot.
Hell, I have a Macbook Air that gets lava hot if you do any OpenGL work on it.
BTW, the hyperbole was in reference to the "declaring war" sentiment.
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I should hope they are, otherwise they're going to go out of business.
They may not be making all of the profits, but if they're doing manufacturing without making any profit, they'd be idiots.
But Microsoft has typically let their partners design the boxes to run Windows, with this Microsoft is entering actually designing and selling Microsoft branded hardware. Except for keyboards and Mice, they've never actually had their brand on the hardware for the most part.
'Declaring war' might be a little strong, but Microsoft is definitely moving into competing with their former partners.
Part of their reasoning for this is that they want to compete with Apple and get the money on the hardware too, but part of it might be that the manufacturers weren't lining up to create new devices around a platform they don't know if anybody wants -- so why should they take the risks ?
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
It's why I said "any more". Neither group is getting the types of profits that would expected from a direct retail offering of their own.
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I don't want chunky and heavy --- I see no reason to haul around a keyboard and optical drive I almost never use (I have docking stations for when I want to use it at a desk at work or home) and it wouldn't fit in my favourite laptop bag which I've been using for about 2 decades now, and don't want to replace.
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Well considering that Win 8 is a hybrid OS that requires a user to have a keyboard for certain tasks, complaints about the uncomfortable keyboard positions is valid.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
How does the Nexus perform running PhotoShop? What's its multitasking capabilties like? Does it support USB 3.0? Storage expansion options? Etc. Etc.
It multi-tasks great, In fact far better than the crippled Metro interface. In fact I have a large variety of photo editing programs suitable for quick editing on the move. I do design work on the 23" screen Desktop. With which I have networked to my Nexus, Which has available about 30GB and 100GB in the cloud,...again for about a sixth of the price, and has longer lasting battery, more portable, and has more mobile applications available for it, with a consistent popular (soon to be the most popular) OS.
Given that the lowest end (12WX) cintiq is around $900, and this seems to have much of the functionality of that, without the need to lug a laptop or desktop around as well, this suddenly becomes more interesting. I'd like to see more info about it's usability in that respect.
surfaces biggest problem is marketing..
I think you need another quick look at those reviews
Haven't had anything but the MSSE loaded for, well, years. And I haven't bothered with real time monitoring of email since I moved to google apps and run from a dedicated chrome session. Am I shirking my responsibility by relying on the "cloud" and MS to do the checking for me? Well, yes, I am. And it's working exceptionally well. I'm sorry if I don't have a dozen scanners running in the background at all times. I do a point check with malwarebytes on occasion, but that's about it.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
You should go get an iPad and a capacitive stylus. It's practically as good, with inexpensive apps that can do all your creating and editing just like a styles!
**BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH**
Yeah, I couldn't stop laughing at that either. It is, imho, the most massive failure of the iPad line not to have pressure sensitive, pixel accurate input from the company that made its mark wooing creative types. I've been hoping that the Surface Pro would be enough to take over the duties of both my tablet and my netbook-sized laptop. Of course, then Panasonic showed their 20" version (A3 baby!), but they won't have pressure sensitivity, and that's a hella-fat pen they need to use.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Forget the Surface Pro - get an Atom-based Win8 tablet. I'm quite satisfied with mine (ATIV Smart PC): easily gets 10 hours of battery life during PDF annotation or OneNote (usually more - I haven't gotten it below 50% in a workday yet), sufficiently thin and light so as not to be noticeable in a bag, and Wacom stylus tech.
I'm coming from a Thinkpad X41T, which had a bit more CPU grunt than that ST-4121 of yours, and the Clover Trail Atom is quite a bit faster than the Pentium M in the X41T... so you should be fine in terms of processing power as well.
... on companies that have already been in a huge race to the bottom.
Right.
I hope they enjoy eating their own poo for a change.
"fully functional and resourced PC in a tablet form factor"
That is exactly how I would describe the Nexus. Its not how I would describe the Surface [either of them]
sure, if you wan to use totally deceptive marketspeak. yeah, technically you can compile your android apps on nexus 7.
technically.
in practice though it's not so fully resourced pc.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
It isn't a laptop and you aren't going to use it as a laptop.
But the fanboys keep saying 'hey, this is great, I can use it as a tablet and a laptop'.
Sure, it has a keyboard, but if you're sitting on the couch with you feet up, you'd be using it in tablet mode.
Unless you want to do actual work with it, as you would with a laptop.
But I'm not going to use the Surface keyboard cover as my keyboard because it doesn't provide the laptop clamshell footprint --- which works quite well.
So, uh, why buy one when there are much better tablets available for less?
iPad looks like a good reader, film viewer and game console, but a dead-end for anyone who wants to write, program or get real work done.
For the main iPad use cases, you missed "web browser" and "email reader".
The addition of a Bluetooth keyboard (which are getting better and better) moves it squarely into the sweet spot for writing.
For "programming and real work" you can use the keyboard plus some of the increasingly excellent remoting software. While it's a compromise (so is a laptop for that matter) you can use the full power of a beefy desktop or server. With a decent network connection it works well.
I like laptops as well, but the point is that even the iPad is becoming more and more viable as a laptop replacement for many people.
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
It propably is an amazing piece of kit and I honestly want something like that more than my next breath. But I would have preferred if they had gone the way Asus went with the Transformer line. Detachable clamshell keyboard with an extra battery.
Microsoft isn't the only one making these devices. There are other options available, and the Surface is just one of many. These hybrids sit on a continuum between tablet and laptop. Surface Pro is closer to the tablet side, while a device like the Samsung Ativ 700T is closer to the laptop side. If you want more laptop than tablet, go with one of them. If you're like me and want more tablet than laptop, the Surface is the better choice.
this abortion of a device
I really think (hope, I suppose may be more accurate) that you were looking for "abomination" or something other than "abortion" which is really meaningless in this context and serves no purpose other than presenting yourself as an Internet Fuckwad
it's not that bad position for serious work..
the point is that an ipad doesn't magicaly stay upright on your laps when you have your feet on the table and neither does surface pro - but a laptop does and you're free to fap on your other hand while browsing the furry gallery with your other...
and fyi this applies to using it on train, in car..
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Also, why would anyone think the Surface Pro was supposed to run on battery all day...? Clearly this is a workstation/tablet hybrid that leans farther to the tablet side.
Because carrying around a power supply is antiquated. Why would you buy a device that needs to be charged more than once a day (i.e. over night)?
Also Google only puts out hardware mostly as a reference design for their partners. They sell some but are not in it to dominate the market. MS wants to be like Apple because they see the money and control Apple has.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
And by breaking the conventional wisdom of touchscreens by using capacitive multitouch rather than the resistive singletouch that everyone of the day thought of when you said 'touchscreen', they were able to bring together those disparate technologies by making them better - the MP3 player by providing a view of all your music plus album artwork, the GPS by providing a high-rez scrollable map, and the phone by providing things like visual voicemail. Whereas I have yet to hear any argument for how the Surface or Win8 improves the experience of either a laptop or a tablet.
All you're doing is creating a nice little box with well-defined boundaries and saying the Surface doesn't fit in it. If we take the market leader, iPad, as a benchmark for portability, Surface is .1" and .5 lbs heavier than iPad. So you've constructed this nice little line that says 1.5lbs is light, 2 lbs is heavy. 0.4" is portable but 0.5" is not portable. Seems pretty arbitrary to me.
Ever hear that old joke that a camel is a horse designed by committee? Surface is the new horse. It's not quite a tablet, it's not quite a laptop, it's not quite...I don't know what the hell it is I just know I don't want one. It's too hot, it's too heavy, the battery life sucks (compared to an iPad anyhow), and it's way too expensive. If I wanted to run old Windows programs then why not just get a laptop at about half the price and not have to deal with the overheating issues? This thing is DOA.
The new atoms seem pretty much designed for Windows 8 tablets. Lower power, cooler, much cheaper, they'll fix a whole load of problems with a core i5 based tablet. It won't be as fast but it'll run office, skype, a browser, 1080p vids and angry birds.
I believe you can get an EEE Slate with an i5 and a combo digitizer, but it might be a little pricy to be worth it. Still, it's a more svelte windows/pc-based tablet with a wacom digitizer and multitouch. Naturally the 3d support is beyond pathetic, but if you don't care then it's not a problem.
I looked into this quite a while from the perspective of expecting to run Painter, so my expectations were fairly high (since I wanted it to run smoothly...) I didn't think the EEE Slate would do the job as well as I wanted to see it done. But if you're just sketching it is probably great.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It's a tablet. A tablet with a screen that bests every single tablet out there in quality, and nearly every single laptop on the market. And has a pressure sensitive stylus input like an expensive Wacom Cintiq. And you can ditch the keyboard and go full tablet mode on the Metro (when the apps store catches up) Remember that the Android app market sucked donkey balls 3 years ago, which is why I have iOS gear - because iOS was the only place to get certain useful apps. Now it doesn't matter.
Or, you can clip on a "real" keyboard and touch pad and do actual, real work - like AutoCAD or Lightroom or Office or, well, anything that runs under windows...because it has the guts to be a full blown computer.
Is the OS really ready? Well, considering that everybody seems to gush over the 1080HD panels that are on 11-13" ultrabooks and nobody seems to have a problem with the scaling there, it's hard to complain that it's a unique problem for the Surface.
Will I get one? I don't know...I'll probably skip v1, either so see a lower power processor (my current laptop is a 1.3GHz single core, and runs all my Apps fine), a larger SSD (256 please), maybe an LTE option (not necessary, but convenient)...or to see what Panasonic really does with their 20" version. Still, for a grand I might get one to try it out - it's half of what I paid for the 8086 IBM I bought when I was a freshman in college.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
... and you'll find that people no longer have PCs at the office, they've got 'surface pro 3' with full blown M$ Office on it - and by that time it will run 10 hours on a charge.
Why focus on one device, when the variety of devices will only grow. The OS can be streamed as an interactive video on to whatever device you might have, and you'll be able to use any software of any platform. The ultimate thin client will only have a screen and the necessary connectivity. Even the processing power can be outsourced and shared between devices. The wireless communication tech is not quite there yet, but it's a pretty sure eventuality that the devices become lighter, diverse in design and size - and energy efficient. Well, almost anything can act as a necessary screen too..
Please show me the ultrabook that gets 10 hours of battery life. Hell show me the laptop with an intel (not atom) chip that gets 10 hours.
The only laptops I have seen that give that kind of life all have to use an extended battery that ruins their form factor and adds quite a bit of weight.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
how light and cheap your Nexus 7 is all day long, but it doesn't fill the niche that the Surface is intended to fill, and that makes it useless for those in that niche.
The Surface is not supposed to be a niche. Its meant to be the template for all windows products, and I'm sorry even Microsoft call it a tablet...so don't be surprised when the rest of us compare it as one.
What is this I don't even...
You realize that the Surface Pro doesn't run Windows RT?
...I think customers will be equally confused :)
Going from 1oz to 2oz is a 100% increase in weight. Doesn't mean it's significant. It's half a pound. It is not some sacred threshold between portable and not portable.
I currently use a LE1700 tablet PC that weighs 3 lbs. I also own an iPad. The iPad is lighter, for sure, but the 3lb tablet is still usable. I look forward to a 2lb replacement for the LE1700.
True. However you don't want a 104F notebook sitting on your lap. It makes you sweat quite a bit and is uncomfortable. It absolutely won't burn your or anything like that. But it sucks to have a machine that warm on your lap.
And to generate all that heat requires current, which is why the batteries aren't lasting as long as they should for something like this.
Steve Jobs, for all his evils understood the concept of a complete package, get everything right (aside antennas, apparently) before rolling it out. This thing smacks of rushed to market.
Expect big sudden price drops.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Rally, I don't see any reviews saying anything like the hardware is crap. Actually most like the hardware, they just see no use for the design. If the hardware is crap then so is every other ultrabook out there.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Why would you carry around a power supply? Surface Pro is not intended for Starbucks socialites, it's intended for offices.
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I agree, and to be honest I don't think it is likely but it could happen.
Speaking only for the US here, if the fiber infrastructure was prevalent enough and bandwidth costs low enough I would think that large corporate environments would do just that - virtualized workstations for everyone, the ultimate in floating profiles.
That being said, it's a little 'utopian' in a way. ;)
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Micro$oft does it they're "declaring war" on their hardware partners.
I think it's an apt analogy, and a good thing (at least from Microsoft's perspective). The "hardware partners" have failed to deliver the mobile goods several times now; they're either incompetent or purposely delivering crap tablets/convertables to preserve their existing laptop lines. Either way, best to route around them if MS wants Win8 to have any chance at all against iOS/Android.
0 1 - just my two bits
"replace teachers with fast food service associates" and "[Bill Gat s] is the greatest, the messiah" should make it pretty simple in this particular case.
... which is why I bought mine without the keyboard :p
I find the screen much too large for regular tablet use, BTW - very nice size for inking though (allows me to put OneNote only on one half of the screen). Great for watching videos though :)
You know, this argument that "you can't enter lots of text on an iPad with the on-screen keyboard, it's a toy," would be a lot more compelling if there weren't cheap & readily available bluetooth keyboards that will pair with the iPad and let you type to your heart's content.
Also, the argument that "real work" somehow requires lots of typing is more than a little silly. Not every job is programming. Not every job is writing novels and screenplays.
Who said anything about ultrabooks? Ultrabooks are nearly just as bad...
As for regular laptops with 10-hour battery life: Many Thinkpads (the T520 I"m typing on right now gets about 12 hours per charge), certain MacBook Pro models (an older 13" was pretty astounding in this regard - can't quite remember which year it was though), any decent subnotebook...
Yes, a lot of laptops out there get much less battery life, but why settle for a mediocre machine when you could just buy an X220 (i3/i5/i7, 10-15 hours of battery life with the 9-cell, something like 1400 grams)...?
they were able to bring together those disparate technologies by making them better - the MP3 player by providing a view of all your music plus album artwork, the GPS by providing a high-rez scrollable map, and the phone by providing things like visual voicemail.
The original iPhone was released in 4GB and 8GB, when iPods at the time went up to 120GB, and music streaming services and cloud storage were less popular, so you needed all your music on board. So the iPhone wasn't the best MP3 player. The scrollable map was nice, but it lacked turn by turn directions so it wasn't the best GPS. And the phone suffered reception problems and did not support 3G, MMS, or Video recording, so it wasn't the best cellphone. But it was the best combination device and that's what drove its success. Apple tweaked the formula over time and they ended up with a winner.
I see many parallels here. The most obvious complaints are low battery, size, and weight. These are probably the easiest to fix with newer processors. Other issues like the screen and interface will change as well. Nothing here is insurmountable. Surface Pro isn't the end-all-be-all hybrid device but it's a great start.
The high temps reported were recorded when the Surface Pro was being hammered with high-CPU and high-GPU demand benchmarks. Lots of folks with Macbook Airs and other lightweight medium-performance laptops report the same problem, not surprising since there are no miracles in hardware design, only compromises. Slim form factors plus powerful CPUs run at 100% duty cycle = high case temps and short battery life. You want more space to dissipate the heat, you want more battery to last longer then you pay for it in size and weight.
They sell some but are not in it to dominate the market. MS wants to be like Apple because they see the money and control Apple has.
The way Microsoft is rolling out Surface, they're not in it to dominate either. Surface is available in Microsoft Stores, a couple retailers, and in a handful of countries. This isn't exactly a massive global roll-out of the device. Ballmer himself even said the hoped to sell just "a few million" in all of 2013.
However, I see no point in the future where a tablet is going to replace my workstation. I can see myself having a tablet to augment my workstation
No such future is being suggested by the Surface. If your work involves sitting in front of a powerful, stationary computer plugged into a wall, then stick with your workstation. The Surface is for people like me, who do not work in front of a desk and use a tablet for writing notes but also need an ultrabook to run desktop applications, and need a little more power than the average user.
non-portable???? since when is 1.5 lbs not portable. Shit, most laptops weigh more then this thing so I guess they are not portable either.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
You say "Why settle for a lower battery life when you can get a higher battery life?" and I hear "Why settle for a thinner, lighter machine when you can get a thicker, heavier machine."
The trade-off between size/weight and battery life is very direct, which is unfortunate because both are important for portability. But depending on how you use your device, size/weight may be more important than battery life.
Say what you will about Apple devices (like the iPad), their devices don't run hot and they are silent or all but silent.
So why did Apple have those things right 5 years ago, but MSFT still can't do it?
How is the surface pro a netbook?
How many netbooks have an i5 processor, how many have a touch screen, and how many have a wacom digitizer?
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
I don't believe this.
I don't see Microsoft as suddenly seeing it in its best interests to take on all the risk associated with every Windows release simply because Apple has a profitable niche market.
Everything about Surface screams "Look guys, this is our vision for how tablets should work. Now go away and make your own". It's sufficiently different from generic Android tablets to be obviously an attempt to introduce something new, while sufficiently niche - priced high, sold without encroaching on competitors - to obviously not be a sign Microsoft intends to take over hardware sales.
Moreover, it's necessary for Microsoft to do this. Google tried to do something similar when Honeycomb was released, but didn't go the whole distance, instead leaving it to third parties to produce the tablets according to a restricted specification that was compromized by having to be something every manufacturer could support. It was a disaster. The common platform appeared, but with minimal innovation (the Transformer was pretty much the only tablet that showed signs of the latter) and Honeycomb tablets sold poorly. It took Amazon, who basically told Google to go take a running jump from a short pier, to produce an Android device that actually had mass appeal.
Before this, Microsoft has only once been able to persuade a third party to do the hardware innovation necessary to create a first class platform for the software they want to sell, and in that case Microsoft was increadibly lucky, with the dominos set up right for them. That was in 1981. And IBM did the heavy lifting. There is no IBM in 2013. If Microsoft wants to popularize a new computing platform, it has to do it itself. It can, eventually, sit back and let third parties produce future Windows tablets, but right now it has to present to the world the full package, so people know what kind of tablet a Windows tablet is. And if third parties also want to produce Windows tablets, that's great and Microsoft will be happy to support them, even if it results in poor Surface sales.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Except the MacBook Air isn't a tablet. That's the point here. In the Surface Pro, you have a crappy tablet (I.e., laptop level heat) and a crappy laptop (tablet form factor, limited specs, floppy hinge that isn't, you know, actually lap friendly).
"Please show me the ultrabook that gets 10 hours of battery life. Hell show me the laptop with an intel (not atom) chip that gets 10 hours. The only laptops I have seen that give that kind of life all have to use an extended battery that ruins their form factor and adds quite a bit of weight." Exhibit A: MacBook Air 13", mid-2011 model. With the keyboard backlight off, and screen brightness at around 25%, I can get 10 hours of use out of it web-surfing and other light tasks. More typical use for me results in about 8 hours (keyboard backlight on, screen at 50% brightness). That's with an i7 CPU, 4GB of RAM, and 256GB of SSD space. I also do get over 10hrs out of my 3rd gen iPad using it to control my telescope. To be fair, that is with the screen brightness all of the way down, but never in sleep mode, and playing music the whole time. Apple, unlike EVERY OTHER manufacturer will usually exceed their ratings on battery life in real use.
OSX pwns.
Except the Surface Pro addresses a very narrow market that wants "more tablet than laptop", but not laptop enough for an ultrabook, and not tablet enough for an iPad or even so ring like an ASUS Transformer.
I, like many here, gave the Surface some interest, but realized I'd rather have a good tablet (an iPad, like most here), and not a gimped Windows. So I had hopes for the Surface Pro. But it looks like having a Surface Pro would mean constantly being annoyed that I'm not using an iPad or a proper notebook, depending on the task at hand.
"Worst of both worlds" sums it up perfectly. "No compromises" my ass!
you fap on the train?
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
Riiight, that quote really is at right use against negative review of product that clearly deserves negative review.
In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
I am not saying that it's a good or bad idea for Microsoft; I was simply replying in general as to why they were being demonized for this.
But this is slashdot, we must ignore the fact that it's a first-gen device and a unique one at that. There couldn't possibly be another, better, iteration later.
A first generation device? Well, not really.
Microsoft has tried time and again to enter the tablet market. They tried to create a tablet market way before iPhone, let alone iPad. Before iPod, really.
And every time they had failed.
Every. Single. Fscking. Time.
Microsoft’s first attempts at tablets brought a keyboard-and-mouse OS onto a crappy-touchscreen device. Wonder why that never worked out.
In the meantime, Apple happened. The iPod (which was a success from the start, and rather good for its time) brought a failed reaction in the shape of assho er, the Zune. The iPhone showed Microsoft (also in the very first try) what Windows CE phones should have been and, probably, wanted to be. But couldn’t have. The iPad was a good tablet from the get-go, and everything Microsoft’s first tablets should have been.
During all that time, Microsoft attempted to force a desktop OS and its paradigms onto devices just not built for that. Then, after both iOS and Android happened, Microsoft decided on a paradigm shift. Boy, I don’t see what could ever go wrong with that.
So what did MS do? After the Windows desktop, which had started copying from KDE in Vista and added OS X elements in 7, which finally made it fairly usable (you may disagree with that point, but I refuse to be dragged into a discussion about it), they decided to sacrifice the declining desktop market (i.e., use their monopoly on the desktop as leverage upon their entry on the tablet market) and put everything on the Metro interface (or whatever it’s called today). It is a tablet/smartphone interface forced on the desktop. At the same time, the desktop metaphor is available on (some?) tablets and tabletoid devices. Which means that their radical paradigm shift isn’t, but it’s still enough of an inconvenience.
The tablet market is not all that new. In fact, it is fairly mature, albeit with room to grow. There is an established duopoly of iOS and Android. And Microsoft just can’t afford to enter that market with sub-par devices. Because the iPad was good, and is now better. Because Galaxy Tab was good, and is now better. Because there are Nexus, Kindle Fire, Transformer Pad, and various other devices working on tried and tested platforms (alright, platform; iOS is restricted to Apple devices). Microsoft has nothing: not a good device, not an OS which people would want all that much (and let’s not get into Windows Phone), not an app store full of various applications. Nothing. They are betting on legacy app compatibility even though the current tablet market thrives without Windows compatibility and, apparently, bringing the desktop experience to tablets. And the tablet experience to desktops.
I still don’t see how that could possibly go wrong.
Ignore this signature. By order.
Ok, so basically the reviews are ripping it to shreds. Just re-read the last few sentences of the summary. That's the nice way of saying "This is total trash, stay away from it. I don't know who would want one, because either you need a tablet, or a notebook, and this one tries to be both and fails at both."
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Also, why would anyone think the Surface Pro was supposed to run on battery all day...? Clearly this is a workstation/tablet hybrid that leans farther to the tablet side.
Because that’s what tablets do. Because that’s what ultrabooks (want to) do. Because Surface Pro has a shorter battery life than many laptops.
This is a hybrid that does nothing right, taking the worst parts from both worlds.
In the longer run Intel will have move entirely into this market, and you'll find that people no longer have PCs at the office, they've got 'surface pro 3' with full blown M$ Office on it - and by that time it will run 10 hours on a charge.
And by that time, other devices will run two days on a single charge. The competition innovates, too. And much more so than Microsoft.
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I was thinking about waiting for a Surface Pro, but just bought a Lenovo Twist for my wife. Similar specs, cheaper, and you can use it like a normal laptop. I win.
She tried a Surface RT and really liked it, but MS in its infinite wisdom hasn't released Outlook for RT, which is a deal breaker for a LOT of us enterprise folks. Way to shoot yourself in the foot, geniuses.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
A big screen, a mouse and keyboard, many connectors (half a dozen USBs minimum, plus card readers, eSATA etc.), optical disk drive, ability to run software without it being signed or from an approved source, and good high-spec CPU, GPU, RAM, internal storage, and so forth. Probably more things, but that's a good starter for 10.
It may be true that you can take a tablet (such as the Surface) and make it all of these things with add on peripherals- in which case, assuming it is painless, then I'm all for it. But if it means squinting at a 7" screen trying to use a touch-screen GUI with a mouse and waiting 25 seconds every time I try to sort a column on a spreadsheet, then it isn't going to do for me.
BGR is quite positive, but as I recall they're typically quite favorable towards MS. The other two reviews are much less favorable and I think the summary's tone is pretty much in line. I mean heck, the article at Ars is entitled "Microsoft Surface with Windows 8 Pro: Hotter, Thicker, Faster, Louder" - you don't even really need to read it to get the not-so-rosy picture.
There are two reasons why x86 Windows would eat battery.
First, Intel's processors are not power savers. They eat power. They consume power to perform computations, they consume power to cool themselves down to keep from overheating when computing. Just having to translate x86 CISC to RISC on the chip before doing the computation is an additional step that uses power. Even if Atom can turn itself off when idle, it cannot avoid the x86 overhead.
Second, Windows is a resource hog. It was never a very well-coded OS. It was open, and popular (due to its DOS legacy as a result of IBM), but not written with efficiency in mind. And not only that, but with Windows running, the machine will never sit idle. It'll always be doing something in the background.
But Windows 8 isn't going to replace desktops with tablets at work anytime soon. Hell, work machines aren't going to replace Windows XP and 7 with Windows 8 at all, whether on the desktop or some other form factor. It's not that Microsoft declared war on their hardware partners. Instead, I think they declared war on the user. Their hardware partners are just collateral damage.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
However, I see no point in the future where a tablet is going to replace my workstation. I can see myself having a tablet to augment my workstation
No such future is being suggested by the Surface.
Can you please go back and read the email I was replying to, which said:
you'll find that people no longer have PCs at the office, they've got 'surface pro 3' with full blown M$ Office on it
Clearly the poster was saying that the tablet would replace the workstation.
http://blog.nexusuk.org
Do tell us more about your fapping experience on trains.
Ignore this signature. By order.
It won't burn you, but it might make you less... potent.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Say what you will about Apple devices (like the iPad), their devices don't run hot and they are silent or all but silent.
So why did Apple have those things right 5 years ago, but MSFT still can't do it?
I have a MaBook Pro that is six years old. I replaced it with a Hackintosh last month.
It became noisy about a year and a half ago, when its vents filled with much too much dust (and I’m suspecting one fan’s bearings are no longer in very good condition).
That’s after more than four years of constant work (I hardly ever turned it off).
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Passive stylus?
I had my fill of those w/ the Stylistic C-500, and Point PT-510.
Active digitizer is a requirement for my purposes.
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
All you're doing is creating a nice little box with well-defined boundaries and saying the Surface doesn't fit in it. If we take the market leader, iPad, as a benchmark for portability, Surface is .1" and .5 lbs heavier than iPad. So you've constructed this nice little line that says 1.5lbs is light, 2 lbs is heavy. 0.4" is portable but 0.5" is not portable. Seems pretty arbitrary to me.
But it is not all that arbitrary.
Y’see, we humans can only lift so much. And while I might fairly easily lift a 20 kilo box (or a CRT monitor), I would not want to hold it in my hands for half an hour.
I can imagine walking around holding a Kindle. In fact, I do that regularly.
I can imagine holding a Nexus 7 in my hand for quite long stretches of time, if only I had the cash to buy one.
But back to the Kindle. My Kindle Keyboard weighs roughly 250 grams. That’s a quarter of a kilo, which means holding a Surface Pro is like holding four Kindles at once. Yeah, that’s not very comfortable.
Our senses and our muscles work on a logarithmic scale. Twice the intensity works as four times brighter or louder. So a one-third increase in mass can be perceived as muchheavier if you try to hold it like the iPad. Your hand won’t tire in one-third less time. You’ll be lucky to hold it the same way half as long as na iPad.
Also, a new contender in the market should be better than the established competition. Surface Pro isn’t.
Ignore this signature. By order.
Apparently you missed the irony of replying on topic, but absurdly, to a clearly absurd comment.
First, it's not crap - although it's not for me.
Second, I'm not defending Micro$oft in any way, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of people trying to always make Micro$oft sound evil despite virtually every other company (Google/Apple/Et cetera) doing the same things.
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When I worked in physical therapy, 104F was the standard hydrotherapy temperature and it was too hot for many people. If you think 104F is colder than your bath, use a thermometer. I doubt you take baths in temperatures higher than 105F - much more than that is just too hot to immerse your whole body in.
Just regular old wacom tech... The stylus is passive, but I have yet to find anything better for taking notes and sketching on the go.
Say what you will about Apple devices (like the iPad), their devices don't run hot and they are silent or all but silent.
So why did Apple have those things right 5 years ago, but MSFT still can't do it?
Microsoft are scared to death that markets are abandoning them for mobile computing - i.e. tablets and smart phones, which is largely true. Dell and HP have seen sharp declines in demand for desktops and laptop computers. Most peopl never needed them, but got them because these devices allowed them to do some thing which were important to them, such as social networking, checking email, reading news, shopping, etc. Microsoft is very late to the dance and are trying to wedge themselves in the same way they have in other markets. They will likely hemorrage cash for a while and either carve out a piece or concede defeat.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I'm sure MS and Google, who are software guys, are convinced that their difficulties with mobile (phones and/or tablets) are/were due to their hardware partners slacking off. They're both wrong though: Android tablets pre 3.x (arguable, pre 4.x) didn't have much success because *android*, not the hardware, was not up to snuff. And today, Windows RT and Windows Phone are having a hard time getting traction because the *software* is not very good, probably a bit bad actually, in terms of features, reliability, and apps.
The likes of Samsung, Asus, Acer, just have to port Windows RT/Phone to some of their *existing* Android hardware for Windows to have first-rate hardware to run on. But they can't do it, because Windows RT/Mobile doesn't support much hardware, can't use regular- or high-rez screens, doesn't run on all SoCs... And they don't even *want* to do it, because Windows Mobile sucks and very few people want it: it doesn't even have an all-terrain video player that can read anything you throw at it, it has a confusing/undiscoverable touch UI, and on tablets a second, a even more confusing, Desktop UI that's only for *ONE* app (Office). And it crashes. A lot.
Again, unless MS can clean up their code, finish up their UI, get some apps, and get market traction, they're better off doing the hardware too, because if I were a OEM right now, I wouldn't bother spending R&D on Windows Phone/RT.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
The exact reason that they are only in MS stores is profit. If they sold in other stores, MS would make less as the distributors have to have their markup. Minus overhead for the store MS (and Apple) keeps more money for themselves.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
So MS cannot control their own hardware if they are not the only manufacurers? They don't have control over the entire Windows tablet market because other OEMs exist but they can control their own products. In fact, they are at a huge advantage in that they have access to inside information, pricing advantages, etc.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Our senses and our muscles work on a logarithmic scale. Twice the intensity works as four times brighter or louder. So a one-third increase in mass can be perceived as muchheavier if you try to hold it like the iPad. Your hand won’t tire in one-third less time. You’ll be lucky to hold it the same way half as long as na iPad.
Interesting physiology lesson, but I don't think it will work out that way. I regularly work with a 3lb tablet (Motion Computing LE1700) which I can use just fine for extended periods (2-3 hours at a time). A 2lb tablet should work even better. Maybe if you have to stand for 8 hours straight a 2lb tablet is no good, and in that case it may be too much, but that's not my use case.
Also, a new contender in the market should be better than the established competition. Surface Pro isn’t.
Another example of creating a box and trying to stuff Surface in it. I might just as easily say the iPad isn't up to the task of the Surface because of its slow processor, limited operating system, lack of built in ports, non-expandable memory, lack of a digitizer, and lack of a kickstand. The aforementioned make Surface more appealing to me than iPad, and no other tablet offers a package even remotely as appealing to me. Yes, iPad is thinner and had longer battery life. If those were the only aspects to consider it would win hands down. But even with the iPad there are compromises being made.
I see many parallels too:
Apple: iPod/iPhone/iPad
Microsoft: Zune/Windows Phone/Surface
Yes indeed. Many parallels.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The difference I see is that Apple didn't try to wedge in a desktop OS into a touch UI device; they created a separate UI/OS for the iPhone. It borrows a lot from OS X but has a distinct UI. MS hybridized everything.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
The whole point of a tablet is that it's more portable than a laptop. As someone who has used a nice stylus-based convertable tablet/laptop for several years, I feel confident saying that touch based input is only superior in a dual device for a very niche list of applications. Even an accurate stylus is only useful when needing to draw or write math. Even a mouse is inefficient enough that shortuct keys are ubiquitous in GUIs. Additionally, Microsoft has forgotten that blocking view of the screen is distracting and very bad UI design; this applies to both touch input and the new "start" menu.
Wacoms are active digitizers. They actively sense where the stylus is with an antenna that sits behind the screen. The stylus itself is active as well, using induction. The pen's circuitry then sends back a signal indicating its rotation, angle, and tip pressure. You can make an active digitizer draw by pressing the tip without even touching the screen, and hover actions can be used due to being able to sense the pen above the screen.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that the stylus actually needed to be battery powered to qualify as active :-)
What's the battery life on your lady's Fujitsu?
that the big fat thief , racist and ethical cheater known as bill gates lays eggs as routinely as expected.
Why is this convergence great? I honestly can't see the point of tablets myself, except as an adjunct to an existing computer. And laptops just seemed odd to me for most uses; if you're on the road all the time then they are handy, but what's the deal with everyone who sits in a cubical 99.9% of the time drooling over them? They cost vastly more than the comparable box/tower/mini, they have much more difficulty in hardware design (cooling primarily), and they are clumsy to use with tiny keyboards and no mice and ridicuously high dpi making you squint.
It's a nice device, but with PDF Annotation & OneNote both available on Android. It has competition. And you lose anti-virus, gain a future OS upgrade (if you go with a top name), have a thinner, cooler (temperature) device with days of instant standby. All for about the same cost, or less if you can handle a smaller screen size (which Android works sufficiently with).
Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
I don't know what Coda is but batch-resizing images isn't much of a workload in PhotoShop or other graphics packages in my experience even with sharpening and basic post-processing. iTunes is, I presume playing back music?
Benchmarks run CPUs up to 100% to stress-test the system and then hold them at that level for hours until the batteries run out or something catches fire. What you're doing doesn't sound like it smokes a lot of CPU cycles.
I'm not sure that's the only reason (although it may be one), since they are available in limited retail stores like BestBuy and Staples, soon to be Costco I think was rumored.
No, it's a heavy, non-portable tablet [...] and a bizarre, unintuitive OS.
Have you personally used one?
Disclaimer: I'm full-time Linux user of 8 years with a newer ultrabook and an Asus Transformer Prime tablet. I also have a friend who works at Microsoft and has a Surface Pro to show off.
I used one last weekend, and I was quite impressed. Granted, I'm not gonna buy one because of the price, battery life, etc. But the hardware feels solid; it's barely heavier than the Transformer tablet. The screen is as responsive as an iPad, and the OS feels very intuitive (Windows 8 was made for tablets, right?). I didn't realize at the time that it's as powerful as an ultrabook, but that makes it even more compelling. Rather than the optional keyboard, a dock with a proper keyboard would be awesome. Now if the OS was only POSIX-compatible...
Like what? Serious question, what do you *require* the keyboard for? I mean, typing an email or writing code using the on-screen keyboard isn't pleasant, but it's at least as good as on any other tablet's OSK. The screen is big enough that the key sizing and spacing is very nearly 100% in the default keyboard mode, although it also takes up about half the screen due to the aspect ratio.
The tablet-y stuff (what you'd usually be doing on the couch) is fine using touch alone, or touch plus stylus. For that matter, the stylus can be used for text entry pretty easily; Microsoft's handwriting recognition was meh in XP but improved substantially in Vista and was great by 7; it should be truly superb in 8.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
They're not betting on legacy app compatibility. That's what RT is all about. They're trying to hedge their bets. And there's nothing wrong with RT. The problem is that it's just too late to the game. It's like the new Blackberry. Why would you get it over what's already dominant? Unless there is something so compelling that it's irresistable. And this is where product after product fails. Windows 8/RT, Blackberry 10, Barnes & Noble Nook, HP WebOS TouchPad, etc. They all have something to offer, but not enough to push the market into a new orbit.
On the other hand you've got the new Google Chrome devices. They may not necessarily hold much appeal to a geek, but they have two features that make them compelling: 1) Tablet-like OS simplicity in laptop form - no worrying about viruses and how to install updates, no worrying about backups, it's all taken care of. 2) Price. They are ridiculously low priced.
Microsoft could've done more to make Surface a success by actually listening to its focus groups and to the clamoring of the multitudes who have been saying for months that Windows 8's desktop experience is fatally flawed (I don't personally agree but the throngs have spoken). They could've included $100 in Windows Store app allowance with every tablet purchase, which would both have fed developers and given people a reason to wade into this new paradigm. They could've offered a third "hard case" keyboard with a proper hinge and more battery that would turn the Surface Pro into a bona fide laptop similar to the Asus Transformer. They could've done more to make the Windows Desktop experience more tablet friendly (you can't even adjust the scrollbar width to the extent that you used to.) There were many things they could've done that they chose not to do because they're not used to competing on a level playing field.
I was their target market. I'm interested in getting a laptop/tablet hybrid (I used to own an HP convertible laptop). I've been excited for the Surface Pro release. And even so, they did a lot right. It's a beautiful machine. Just not enough.
There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
Since Win 8 can run legacy x86 programs, I doubt most of them were designed with touch mind.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Interesting physiology lesson, but I don't think it will work out that way. I regularly work with a 3lb tablet (Motion Computing LE1700) which I can use just fine for extended periods (2-3 hours at a time). A 2lb tablet should work even better. Maybe if you have to stand for 8 hours straight a 2lb tablet is no good, and in that case it may be too much, but that's not my use case.
If it works for you, great. But as far as comfortable use goes, lighter is better.
Another example of creating a box and trying to stuff Surface in it. I might just as easily say the iPad isn't up to the task of the Surface because of its slow processor, limited operating system, lack of built in ports, non-expandable memory, lack of a digitizer, and lack of a kickstand. The aforementioned make Surface more appealing to me than iPad, and no other tablet offers a package even remotely as appealing to me. Yes, iPad is thinner and had longer battery life. If those were the only aspects to consider it would win hands down. But even with the iPad there are compromises being made.
You might say that, but here’s the catch: the boxes are already there. I needn’t create a box because Microsoft is entering an established market. Sure, Surface brings something new into the game, but as far as pre-existing boxes go, it’s neither here nor there. And its own new box, should it create one, seems to be rather small.
Compromises are made everywhere; I’ll grant you that. However Surface is not a very good tablet, but at least it’s a rather poor laptop. It’s not an ultrabook, either. In fact, I can only define it in terms of what it’s not, or what it’s not good at. Sure, it all depends on what you need in a device, but even though your use case may warrant buying a Surface, the majority of the market doesn’t seem to concur. IIRC there were some layoffs in Microsoft due to poor sales of the box-breaking device that is Surface.
Still, I need to ask: why exactly do you consider Surface better than a full-blown laptop?
Ignore this signature. By order.
They're not betting on legacy app compatibility. That's what RT is all about.
Yes, but this is not Surface RT. This is about Surface Pro. And if legacy app compatibility isn’t one of its perceived advantages, what is? The bigger, faster, hotter CPU?
They're trying to hedge their bets. And there's nothing wrong with RT. The problem is that it's just too late to the game.
Well, there is the matter of the screen, too. Much crappier than the competition.
It's like the new Blackberry. Why would you get it over what's already dominant? Unless there is something so compelling that it's irresistable. And this is where product after product fails. Windows 8/RT, Blackberry 10, Barnes & Noble Nook, HP WebOS TouchPad, etc. They all have something to offer, but not enough to push the market into a new orbit.
Precisely. This is, incidentally, why Linux on the desktop is still a pipe dream. It’s good, in parts even really good, but just not good enough for people to switch (and lose the apps they’re used to, whether they’d paid money for them or not).
Microsoft could've done more to make Surface a success by actually listening to its focus groups and to the clamoring of the multitudes who have been saying for months that Windows 8's desktop experience is fatally flawed (I don't personally agree but the throngs have spoken).
I do agree. After using everything from DOS 3.30 and up, Windows 3.0 and up (except for Vista), Mac OS from System 7 up, CDE under Solaris and literally dozens of GUI’s under Linux, I have to say the Metro experience on the desktop is one of the most unintuitive interfaces I’d tried. Not built for keyboard and mouse. At all.
Still, I don’t understand why they even had focus groups if they’d decided not to listen to them.
They could've included $100 in Windows Store app allowance with every tablet purchase, which would both have fed developers and given people a reason to wade into this new paradigm. They could've offered a third "hard case" keyboard with a proper hinge and more battery that would turn the Surface Pro into a bona fide laptop similar to the Asus Transformer.
They could have. They didn’t. And I fear it’s a bit too late now.
I mean, the second Zune was said to have been really good. Didn’t matter one bit, did it now?
They could've done more to make the Windows Desktop experience more tablet friendly (you can't even adjust the scrollbar width to the extent that you used to.)
So you’re saying it’s not even very tablet-friendly? Because I’d only tried it as a desktop (on a 17" laptop) and it was rather dreadful. It looked rather tablet-oriented, and my colleagues who’d tried it out as a tablet were fairly content.
There were many things they could've done that they chose not to do because they're not used to competing on a level playing field.
Well, and because they didn’t want to enrage their hardware-building partners who might not have been able to compete with $100 vouchers and whatnot. They might have got the reply “Want to make devices that we can’t price match? Fine, have a nice life.” Gabe Newell, for whatever reasons, has started looking for greener pastures. How many allies can Microsoft afford to lose right now?
I was their target market. I'm interested in getting a laptop/tablet hybrid (I used to own an HP convertible laptop). I've been excited for the Surface Pro release. And even so, they did a lot right. It's a beautiful machine. Just not enough.
That’s the problem. Not good enough.
Ignore this signature. By order.
You might say that, but here’s the catch: the boxes are already there. I needn’t create a box because Microsoft is entering an established market. Sure, Surface brings something new into the game, but as far as pre-existing boxes go, it’s neither here nor there. And its own new box, should it create one, seems to be rather small.
The same was said of the iPad when it was released. The boxes were smartphone and laptop. They called it a terrible smartphone because it was too large, and a terrible laptop because it didn't run laptop apps. But the iPad came into its own.
And its own new box, should it create one, seems to be rather small.
I'm not so sure about that. In a survey of 10,000 IT professionals in 17 countries, 32% indicated they wanted a Windows tablet as their next work tablet. Combined, Apple and Android got 38%. Maybe they don't want specifically the Surface, but this is good news for Microsoft nonetheless, and it still points to the same niche of people who want a tablet but also want to run legacy Windows applications.
However Surface is not a very good tablet
Maybe for what you expect from a tablet. If you think a tablet is just a thin, light media consumption device, then yes by definition Surface is a bad tablet. I want more out of my tablets: namely raw computing power and handwriting support. In that sense iPad is a bad tablet for me.
why exactly do you consider Surface better than a full-blown laptop?
My use for Surface is three-fold: run matlab, interface with data acquisition systems, and take handwritten notes. The data acquisition system has linux and windows support, but it's all x86, and the drivers are proprietary. So I at least need an x86 tablet which takes iPad and Android (most?) out of the running. I need a tablet because they're more comfortable to use standing and one handed. 2 lbs isn't a dealbreaker here. The digitizer on Surface enables precise notes, which also takes iPad out of the running if it wasn't already. Above all once data is collected I need to analyze with Matlab, usually on the spot. There's a potential to port this functionality over to Python, but that would take a *lot* of work, when it's already in place and working as-is.
So if not for Surface, the ideal setup is either a convertible tablet, which I've tried, and which for the most part are larger and heavier; or a laptop and a tablet, which I've also tried, and which combined are heavier and more expensive.
Come on now, you can't deflate that canard so easily. How else can the fanny-pack geeky fucks casually dismiss the iPad, if you poke a hole that big in what amounts to their only objection to it?
Of course, they know as well as anybody that their objections lack any substantive basis, which is why the iPad sells more than all the other tablets on the market put together, times 2. However, again, they would have us all believe that this is due mainly to some magic mind-control waves that emanate from 1 Infinite Loop in Cupertino.
My god, I just used "it's" instead of "its". Slashdot is indeed making me dumber, just as I had suspect.
I think you meant 'suspected'
46137
This all depends on ambient air temperature.
If it's a hot, humid, summer day, those fans are going to run harder, speed-step is going to slam the CPU into minimum mode, and the battery's going to run-down real quick.
If it's a dry, cool, winter day, (it's being reviewed in winter) - then, of course it can maintain 40C under load.
Don't put it in your laptop bag while it's still running.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I even ripped a DVD about an hour ago and while I heard the fans kick in, I didn't notice any heat.
How about this metric: If it has fans, it's not a tablet. Or more accurately: If your tablet has fans, you're doing it wrong.
You ripped a DVD on a macbook air? I find this suspect...
Disagreeing with you does not make me a troll.
Tomato / Tomato. The pro is a great tablet because it does so much more than any other tablet *and* a great laptop because it's portable and well built.
You ripped a DVD with a MB Air? I knew they were magical and all but that's pretty impressive.
Oh, and I'll counter this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr8DYE6Tcks
Reboot after installing what? I can install kernel drivers just fine on windows without needing to reboot most of the time. Apparently on a Mac you can't do this. You have to reboot every time a kernel driver is installed. Crazy but true.
quite a way but seriously, this company just keeps falling further behind under Ballmer's watch. They are playing catch up and not innovating.
Tomato / Tomato. The pro is a great tablet because it does so much more than any other tablet *and* a great laptop because it's portable and well built.
It does more, poorly and at great compromise. And it's more portable by being too small and unusable on your lap (ironic, for something you just called a "great laptop"!).
With the Type Cover, it's thicker than my MacBook Pro! How is a 5 hour battery life, heavy, thick, non-LTE optional, horrendously expensive, gimped storage space tablet supposed to be a "great tablet"? Because it runs Windows? MS has been singing that song for over a decade now, and it turns out, no one wants Windows on their tablet!
And there have also been UMPCs, and netbooks, and no one wants those either! This thing doesn't even have an 11" display, and it's somehow a "great laptop"?! Almost any ultrabook is a better laptop (and those aren't generally regarded as "great laptops"), and often cheaper!
Surface Pro is compromised in all the wrong ways in order to make a device that has all the wrong features. It might sound like a good idea, but it's not. It's a dud.
Actually, the Atom tablets are on par with the Android devices in terms of battery life, and actually a bit better than most in terms of performance. The Atom blows Tegra3 out of the water (I have a Nexus 7 to compare to).
As for OneNote on Android: Last time I tried that, it wouldn't even display handwritten notes from my SkyDrive folder... let alone allow me to add any. Has this changed?
I highly doubt that the Android version has anywhere near caught up to the Windows version :). The same goes for PDF annotation - EZPDF and so on... they just don't cut it when compared to Bluebeam or Grahl.
Why do you find it suspect? Ah, because you do not know much about them and didn't realize that you can have an attached DVD via wire or wifi?
The point behind cubicle dwellers drooling over tablets is because they don't want to be sitting in the little cubes any more. And while that is just a wishful dream for many, there are many others who could be more productive by being able to move about and still have their computing resources in their hands. Not everyone is a code banger that has to be hunched over a keyboard with 2-3 27" screens and a PBX handset within reach at all times.