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U.S. ISBN Monopoly Denies Threat From Digital Self-Publishing

Ian Lamont writes "The Economist writes that self-publishing threatens the existence of the International Standard Book Number (ISBN) regimen, which is used to track and distribute printed books. Self-publishing of e-books has experienced triple-digit growth in recent years, and the most popular self-publishing platforms such as Amazon's Kindle Direct Publishing don't require ISBNs (Amazon assigns its own reference number to these titles). But Bowker, the sole distributor of ISBNs in the United States, sees an opportunity in self-publishing. The packages for independent authors are very expensive — Bowker charges $125 for a single ISBN, and $250 for ten. It also upsells other expensive services to new and naive authors, including $25 barcodes and a social widget that costs $120 for the first year. Laura Dawson, the product manager for identifiers at Bowker, insists that ISBNs are relevant and won't be replaced anytime soon: 'Given how hard it is to migrate database platforms and change standards, I wouldn't expect to replace the ISBN, simply because it is also an EAN, which is an ISO standard that forms the backbone of global trade of both physical and digital items. There are a lot of middlemen, even in self-publishing. They require standards in order to communicate with one another.'" It seems like a lot of programs/services just use ASINs (despite being controlled by a single private entity), probably indicating some deficiency with the current centralized registration regime. Back in 2005, Jimmy Wales suggested we needed something (culturally) similar to wikipedia for product identifiers. The O'Reilly interview indicates that the folks issuing ISBNs think DOIs are DOA too.

127 comments

  1. so many acronyms by yincrash · · Score: 2

    IOWANINOLS

    1. Re:so many acronyms by clanrat · · Score: 1

      I would mod parent up if I had points. Undefined initialisms and acronyms inhibit communications.

  2. Spare Me by xstonedogx · · Score: 1

    They are used to dealing with big publishers. It is no surprise to me that they can offer those big publishers huge discounts on volume pricing, because this is the type of thing that doing once has roughly the same cost as doing in huge bulk.

    So no, I'm sorry, I don't swallow the whole "very expensive" line or the "12,500%" markup bullshit in TFA. It's not markup. It's the cost. And you can get huge discounts if you buy in bulk. Just like about everything you buy at Costco.

    1. Re:Spare Me by jimicus · · Score: 1

      TBH, that part of TFA struck me as a chap who's written some basic "Learn X in 30 minutes" books, decided to go down the self-publishing route (whether he's hoping to make a business out of it or it's just a self-funding hobby I'm not sure) and is bitter about learning a lesson that cost $250.

      Considering it's very easy to make mistakes that cost ten or even a hundred times that in a small business, I reckon $250 is a bargain. It'd cost an awful lot more than $250 to hire a consultant to tell you that.

    2. Re:Spare Me by sjames · · Score: 2

      Cost? What are they using to generate the numbers, a hand cranked analytical engine?

    3. Re:Spare Me by gig · · Score: 2

      How do you know $125 is the actual cost of one ISBN? There is no market for ISBN's, only a monopoly.

      In Canada and many other countries, the cost of one ISBN is free. A whole ISBN prefix can be had for free. There ends up being no excuse not to apply an ISBN, and so all books have ISBN's, and everybody benefits.

      > Costco

      What has a private grocery store got to do with public infrastructure like ISBN's? An ISBN costs nothing to create, and you can't eat it. We put them on books not for our own private interest, but for the good of society and culture. So you can find a specific book 20 years from now. So retailers can save time and money in administrative costs and put that into better serving readers.

      A much better analogy is Social Security Numbers. You don't want to have one, but you have one for the benefit of the whole society. What possible benefit would there be to charging people to obtain a Social Security Number? We want them to have a job, we want them to be uniquely identified in the Social Security database.

      I also don't think you understand that books have multiple ISBN's. So we are talking about $250 per title. For what?

    4. Re:Spare Me by gig · · Score: 0

      I think your whole comment is a mistake. And since I have a monopoly on fining people for mistaken comments, I charge you $250 for your comment. Payable to The Smile Train, who for $250, will fix a kid's cleft palate. Don't be a hypocrite and not pay — you already said $250 is a small price to pay to learn from your mistakes.

      The Smile Train is the reason I resent the $250 per book I have to pay for fucking ISBN's. Because I would rather give that $250 to The Smile Train and fix some kid's cleft palate and restore his hearing and ability to speak and enable him to have a better life. I give a portion of every book to The Smile Train, and I give a portion of every book to fucking Bowker. Guess who deserves the money more? Yes, the disabled kids and the volunteer surgeons and nurses who fix their simple birth defect, something that no kid should even have to go begging for in the first place.

      Nobody is learning any lessons from fucking highway-robbery ISBN's. Your comment is both ridiculous and insulting.

      I also publish sound recordings, which have ISRC's. For $70, I bought an “ISRC prefix” that is unique to me, and enables me to generate 10,000 ISRC numbers per year for 100 years. So why in the hell am I paying $250 for 10 ISBN's? In Canada, you get an ISBN prefix for free and generate your own ISBN's. Maybe not “for free” — you pay $0.001 per year in taxes so that all the books published in Canada can be sold, archived, and the cultural legacy preserved with minimal waste of precious human time and effort (which adds up to whole lifetimes very quickly.)

      So ISRC's are $0.00007 each, but ISBN's are $125 each, or $25 each if you buy 10 at a time. How does that make any sense?

      ISSN's are free in the US. The Library of Congress doles them out. Why the fuck doesn't Library of Congress also dole out ISBN's for free? It would cost less money for them to do that than it does for them to deal with books that lack ISBN's (Amazon has lots of these) and books that have duplicate ISBN's (because somebody resold the same ISBN over and over to self-publishers who balked at $250 per title.)

      So please, spare ME.

      Don't forget to pay $250 to The Smile Train and fix a kid's mouth and redeem your stupid mistake.

    5. Re:Spare Me by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

      Well you're wrong. This is not about how much it costs... its about whether or not there should be a cost. This is just another example of an existing system paying existing salaries is simply going to vanish. They have a history of providing a useful service that used to actually cost money to provide. But now there is simply no reason for them to exist. They are charging fees based on old technology and systems they believe are neccessary. It may be required now, but for the large part, they offer little more then a history of function and trust. Perhaps at one time it did cost money to provide databases for integrations with users around the world. But now it simply isnt too hard to set up an accessible database for anyone in the world to access. They may be needed now simply because of all those who expect them to exist as a database reference. But in short order they will simply price themselves out of existence because they failed to meet the demands of a new paradim change. The paradim is that it now costs nothing to distribute your book. They will simply fizzle away with the physical books they depend on.

    6. Re:Spare Me by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Why the fuck doesn't Library of Congress also dole out ISBN's for free?

      What does the "I" in "ISBN" stand for?

      I'm sure that the USA's LoC could, if it desired, come up with a scheme of LoCSBNs that would be locally unique, and which might, for the present, be not-incompatible with the ISBN system. But at some point ...

      Oh, there's an XKCD for that.

      ISBN was designed for the publishing situation in ... when, the mid-1970s? The situation is now different. It sounds as if ISBN may not be an appropriate standard for the future. Which is a good reason to start thinking about the fundamentals, before pontificating.

      What is a "document"? What is "publishing"? How long might I want the new scheme to work for? How do I intend to "transmit" the "references".

      Time scale is easy - Earth is likely to be uninhabitable by anything resembling humans in a billion years, so let's design for that.
      What is "publishing" - say, any written record that pertains to one individual primarily and others only tangentially. So, your receipt at the supermarket might be a document you need to refer to in the future (to claim tax relief on your condoms, for example). So ... is it credible that a human could generate 100 million documents in a 100yr lifetime? How many people .... for round numbers, lets' choose an average of 10 billion.
      I make that 10^10 people * 10^9 years / 10^2 years/lifetime * 10^8 documents per lifetime for an address space of 10^(10+9-2+8) = 10^25
      That's 0xDE0B6B3A7640000, a 15 hex digit number. Make it 16 hex digits and you've got a good deal of room. That's not too drastic to transmit, even over the phone ; quite a few people could probably remember important ones without writing them down. Make it 9 hex digits for your personal identifier and 7 hex digits for your document identifier, and you might be onto a workable system.

      In related thoughts, the 16 decimal digits of a credit card number allows for up not far short of a million cards per person existent today. Or 1000 cards per person, for a thousand generations, assuming that the average population isn't much different to today. Is that utterly implausible? Are the numbers utterly unmanageable?

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  3. I = International by 1u3hr · · Score: 1

    Bowker may be a monopoly in the US, I don't know. . Every country has its own series. In Hong Kong the government (part of the public library system) issues ISBNs on demand, free I charge authors $20 to supply a HK ISBN if they don't want to get one themself. Amazon numbers work and are free, but of course you can only use them if you sell exclusively through Amazon. So it may not be such a great saving.

    1. Re:I = International by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Informative

      According to TFA, the ISBN is international; but for whatever historical reason 1 entity per country(no word on what happened to countries that have ceased to exist or come to exist since 1959, though those probably aren't hotbeds of writing and publishing...) was made the local monopoly distributor for that country.

    2. Re:I = International by uffe_nordholm · · Score: 3, Informative

      More or less the same applies here in Sweden: I applied for a few ISBNs, and was given two with no fuss. The total cost to me was I had to write two emails, and read some instructions. No money was involved in the transaction. I don't see why this should change should I need more ISBNs in the future.

    3. Re:I = International by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is 1 entity per country not international?

    4. Re:I = International by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      How is 1 entity per country not international?

      It is international. My comment was purely addressing the issue of why your experience in actually getting one may differ markedly by jurisdiction. They are 'international' in the sense that ISBNs are supposed to be globally unique and the data tied to them should be available across the board; but the market/allocation mechanism is a series of nation-specific monopolies with their own distinct policies.

    5. Re:I = International by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      Essentially this is a fairly standard "everything should be private and for profit" attitude prevalent in US.

      In most of the rest of the world, ISBNs are distributed cheap or even free to authors, typically at a cost of requesting them and maybe paying some small processing fee.

    6. Re:I = International by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Essentially this is a fairly standard "everything should be private and for profit" attitude prevalent in US.

      If the government is granting the monopoly, it's not "private" at all - it's a public-private-partnership (which is the new term for it - they used to call it fascism).

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    7. Re:I = International by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 1

      More or less the same applies here in Sweden: I applied for a few ISBNs, and was given two with no fuss. The total cost to me was I had to write two emails, and read some instructions. No money was involved in the transaction.

      Same in New Zealand. If you want an ISBN you go to the National Library web site, fill in their form, and that's it. No money involved.

    8. Re:I = International by Matthias+Wiesmann · · Score: 3, Informative
      It is not really once code per country, ISBN started with a code per language zone, and switched to countries when they realised it could not scale, so codes 978-0 and 978-1 are for english (this includes the mysterious lands of united kingdom and australia), code 978-2 is for french, and so does 979-10, 978-3 is for german, the followin 978- prefixes are assigned to various countries. Note that the code is not assigned to the language of the book, but the dominant language of the country / publisher. So a swiss publisher can have a 978-2 book in english.

      If prices of ISBN codes were really a problem, people could just publish in France, where ISBNs are free. Anyways nowadays ISBN are just a particular class of GTIN/EAN so I suspect one could just buy an EAN (UPC) code.

    9. Re:I = International by malkavian · · Score: 1

      Wish I could mod that informative.. Learned more about ISBN codes in that post than I have in the preceeding 40 years! :)

    10. Re:I = International by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but Sweden's communist, or something.

      'Murica!

  4. I didn't understand any of this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And I'm an ebook author!

    1. Re:I didn't understand any of this by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 0

      While assuming that's the case here is probably harsh, the fact that (s)he started a sentence with a preposition bodes ill.

    2. Re:I didn't understand any of this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      While my assuming that you know what you're talking about is probably unwise, the fact that you identified a conjunction as a preposition bodes ill.

    3. Re:I didn't understand any of this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While assuming that's the case here is probably harsh, the fact that (s)he started a sentence with a preposition bodes ill.

      Well, you started yours with a pre-supposition, how does that bode for you?

    4. Re:I didn't understand any of this by Sir+or+Madman · · Score: 1

      While my assuming that you know what you're talking about is probably unwise, the fact that you two are dickering over overly prescriptive usage and what is actually not an error bodes ill.

      Source text for next poster(s):

      While my assuming that you know what you're talking about is probably unwise, the fact that you ___________________________ bodes ill.

    5. Re:I didn't understand any of this by ynp7 · · Score: 1

      While my assuming that you know what you're talking about is probably unwise, the fact that you while my assuming bodes ill.

  5. Amazon has it covered, making ISBN less relevant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With point to multi-point sourcing from someone as large as Amazon, why pay money for the ISBN number? You can get "found" easily enough.

  6. ISBN serves a purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a standard unique identifier recognized across the publishing business. While an ISBN doesn't mean much about the quality of the book (it could be total garbage, or worse) at least it ensures that people will have to fork over cash to get one - so you won't get millions of new spam ISBNs each day for example. And if identifiers were free, you'd probably have to use some scheme like GUID (randomly generated 128-bit identifiers) which are not human friendly, as anyone knows who has ever tried to clean out their Windows registry.

    Amazon's scheme is vendor-specific, and so would O'Reilly's if Tim came up with one.

    1. Re:ISBN serves a purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ISBNs are human friendly? Since when?

  7. The Importance of ISBNs by christurkel · · Score: 4, Informative

    By putting an ISBN on your work, it is available in every wholesalers and retailer's database. Your book can be ordered anywhere by anyone. Amazon's identifier is for Amazon only.

    Authors don't have to pay that much for an ISBN when they self publish. Lulu.com for instance charges $40 for a "global distribution package" which includes an ISBN.

    --

    CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/
    1. Re:The Importance of ISBNs by fermion · · Score: 1
      You know Amazon sells something like 1 out every 3 books. It is like Walmart, big enough that things change just for it. Remember when music was being censored so Walmart would sell it?

      If I wrote a book that I was going to market so it would end up on some best seller list, and therefore in a brick and mortar store, the cost of ISBN would be insignificant. If I were publishing a book that might end up in a library, then the cost would be justified. If I were publishing a book every couple months, then the 10 pack would useful.

      But really, $125 is at least $125 books. That money could be used for advertising on google that would drive people to Google where almost every person in the developed world can order my book.

      i am not saying the ISBN is not useful, just that times are changing and some thing are not so valuable and do not demand so high a price. Firms that ignore this are not long for this world.

      Having the customer enter some data into a web page and pushing that data to international data does not cost $125. There is nothing else these people do. Registering a domain name only costs $10.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    2. Re:The Importance of ISBNs by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ISBNs aren't worth $125, and they never were. They're priced that high to discourage people from buying them in such small quantities, because doing so is almost always a mistake, and results in lots of extra overhead because of the added segmentation of the address space.

      The reason it is a mistake can be summarized by describing how I'll be using ISBNs for each of the three books I'm about to publish:

      • One ISBN for the hardcover print edition.
      • One ISBN for the paperback print edition.
      • One ISBN for the EPUB digital edition.
      • One ISBN for the Amazon (MOBI/KF8) digital edition (optional).
      • One ISBN for the PDF digital edition (sometimes optional, depending on merchant).

      So each book in my trilogy could eat up to half of a block of ten by itself. Most folks should not be buying in blocks smaller than 10, and if you're serious about writing more than one or two books, in blocks of 100.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:The Importance of ISBNs by Zenin · · Score: 2

      By putting an ISBN on your work, it is available in every wholesalers and retailer's database. Your book can be ordered anywhere by anyone.

      Except it can't.

      While the ISBN helps simplify distribution, it does nothing to guarantee it. There are thousands upon thousands of "books in print", all with valid ISBN numbers, for which it can be effectively impossible for generic book sellers to obtain for you.

      This is particularly true for niche academic books published by tiny niche publishers. Once upon a time I worked for Computer Literacy Bookshops who largely thrived on their very unique network of publishing contacts that allowed them to obtain practically any academic text available.

      Yet despite their fantastic relationship building, even CLB had a hell of a difficult time obtaining many obscure titles. For example, there are many texts...with ISBNs...that were only ever intended to be sold to a particular customer (typically a school or trade guild/union). Getting them to sell to anyone else can be impossible. There were a lot that would sell to their 1 intended client...and CLB...but absolutely no one else.

      The Internet and Self-Publishing has changed a lot of that game, but not all of it by a long shot, especially among scholars of more esoteric subjects.

      --
      My /. uid is better then your /. uid
    4. Re:The Importance of ISBNs by gig · · Score: 1

      > By putting an ISBN on your work, it is available in every wholesalers and retailer's database.
      > Your book can be ordered anywhere by anyone.

      Not even close to true.

      ISBN's are just serial numbers. Applying a serial number to a product does not magically cause it to appear in ordering systems around the country or globe. Registering a domain name does not cause you to appear in everybody's bookmark list in their browser. All that separates ISBN's from a serial number is they have to be unique, therefore there has to be some system to dole them out, same as domain names. You obtain an ISBN and apply it to your book and then — nothing happens. Nothing at all.

      You are imagining that a $125 ISBN comes with some kind of distribution component. No, it doesn't. To get your book into ordering systems, you have to actually get the book into ordering systems.

      > Authors don't have to pay that much for an ISBN when they self publish. Lulu.com for instance
      > charges $40 for a "global distribution package" which includes an ISBN.

      Well, first, Lulu.com is technically a publisher. We are talking here about self-publishing. Lulu.com can generate ISBN's cheaply because they buy them in lots of 10,000, just like other publishers. We're talking here about the fact that a bullshit monopoly is artificially inflating the cost of self-publishing. I shouldn't be driven to use a publisher because ISBN's are only sensibly-priced in lots of 10,000.

      And Lulu.com is only setup to publish Word documents, essentially. You cannot even generate your own ePub, let alone make a photo book or interactive book with audio video and so on. It is not suitable for about 60% of the books in the bookstore that can't be represented in a Word document. These are the books that are the most missing from the electronic catalog, which is why iBooks Author and iPad are so important, and why iBookstore's 70% royalty (which Amazon then had to adopt) is so important. It encourages independent grassroots book publishing like App Store encourages 1-person developer teams.

      Some self-published books are textbooks written by teachers for their own students, because the school can't afford textbooks any other way. These books should also have ISBN's. There is no money to pay a bullshit monopolist for those ISBN's.

  8. "Very expensive"? by PCM2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    $125 for one ISBN is only "very expensive" when you consider that ten ISBNs is $250. There are plenty of people who are willing to sell you an extra ISBN for cheap.

    That said, $125 for an ISBN is only "very expensive" in a country where the average person spends less than $125 for a bag of groceries. Which ain't this one.

    On a broader level, one of most baffling things to me has been how little people are willing to invest in their own futures. They'll spend $1,500 on an HDTV, but spend $125 for an ISBN -- when publishing their novel is presumably one of their lifelong dreams -- hell no! I can't afford it! It's so much money! I've listened to long harangues from musicians about how unjust the music industry is, and it turns out all they need is $2,500 to put out an album that's already been written AND recorded. I just can't understand it -- if it's that important to you, if this is what you really want to do with your life, why wouldn't you just put $2,500 on your credit card and damn the consequences? Honestly, I've made my living as a writer for well over a decade now, so I know what it's like to make no money at all ... but $2,500 is such an inconsequential amount of funds to spend on your own dreams that I just can't comprehend anybody complaining about it. In this society, $2,500 is the kind of money you don't even need to ask somebody for ... just fill out a form, they'll send you a card, and you can get a $2,500 loan -- or more -- without ever looking a human in the eye. So ... we're bitching about $250 now? No wait... we're apparently bitching about $125?

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
    1. Re:"Very expensive"? by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's very expensive when you consider that ISBNs are free in many countries. Canada, for example, just requires you to register as a publisher, and then you can get as many ISBNs as you can use from a web site.

    2. Re:"Very expensive"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's very expensive for what it is: a couple minutes of effort by the producer. And it's only that expensive since the issuer has a monopoly.

    3. Re:"Very expensive"? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      it turns out all they need is $2,500 to put out an album that's already been written AND recorded.

      Wow, where can you do that? What distribution channels does that give you access to?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:"Very expensive"? by CalRobert · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your broader point really strikes a chord - I find my friends have a hard time understanding why I would spend $500 on taking a class at a community college (after about 6 of them my career improved immeasurably thanks to the skills earned) or $1000 getting a visa to work in a different country (which is cheap, really), yet they seem fine with spending boatloads of cash on a fancier car, or eating out all the time. To each their own, and if that's what they want to do then good for them, but I don't get their surprise.

    5. Re:"Very expensive"? by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      $125 for one, $25 each for the next step up, that should tell you all you need to know. It's rent seeking.

    6. Re:"Very expensive"? by PCM2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wow, where can you do that? What distribution channels does that give you access to?

      For a lot of types of music, there is no mass market. The "distribution channels" are MySpace, Facebook, and Amazon. The role of the record label is minimal.

      I had one friend who managed to score a distribution deal with a pretty big indy distributor. It meant you could walk into any Virgin Megastore on Earth and buy his CD. But did you? No ... you didn't. Those CDs sat there for a few months and were rotated out for something else. Distribution channels aren't everything ... and this isn't the music industry of even a few years ago.

      That said, realize that all a record label really is is a bank with a lot of connections. Everything a major record label "spends" on you ... for recording, mixing, mastering, distribution, promotion ... is really just a loan. Nothing is a gift. You get paid, but not before they've made back every penny they spent on you. Putting out an album with record label backing is 100% analogous to starting a company with VC funding.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    7. Re:"Very expensive"? by burisch_research · · Score: 1

      Very insightful. Someone with mod points, mod this guy up? /aside El Reg rocks :)

      --
      char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
    8. Re:"Very expensive"? by sjames · · Score: 1

      It amazes ME how much some people are willing to pay for a 'service' that costs practically nothing to perform. Generally these things only happen where there is a monopoly (rent seeking).

      For the low low price of $1000, I will issue you your official breathing license! Why would you even hesitate? Isn't your life worth $1000? Just put it on the ol' credit card and quit complaining!

    9. Re:"Very expensive"? by KramberryKoncerto · · Score: 1

      $125 is close to the median household income in the US. In other words, it's enough to sustain an average family for one day, covering taxes, food, mortgage, petrol, other non-essential stuff, and then some change to the bank. All for a silly number (more precisely a record over an international database) that won't take much more than a phone call, and in some cases just by clicking a few buttons online - it probably doesn't even directly cost them cash, as many governments use tax money to help sustain the system.

      Then it's not the only cost to publish a book. You'd probably need to pay up front for marketing, distribution; other middle-men such as retail would at least take a cut from the final sales. It's like a store taking $1 per day just for the privilege to let a book to sit on a shelf in an obscure position. Looks cheap but it makes many paper-back books less than worthless to the author in a few days. If an author pays $125 for such triviality like an ISBN and it's "cheap", then I guess bankruptcy is also cheap. So it's got to be expensive.

      The only way they could charge even $25 per number is because they have some kind of absolute power of granting ISBNs, and take advantage of the information asymmetry against "naive authors". The ridiculous $125 price tag, on the other hand, is probably more of a way to make $25 look cheap, as a common marketing technique.

    10. Re:"Very expensive"? by KramberryKoncerto · · Score: 1
      Correction:

      $125 is close to the median household income in the US

      median household income per day

    11. Re:"Very expensive"? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      That said, $125 for an ISBN is only "very expensive" in a country where the average person spends less than $125 for a bag of groceries. Which ain't this one.

      Shrugs. For me, the question is: block of 100 or block of 1,000. My first project, a trilogy of three novels, will require at least nine ISBNs, or 12 if I assign an ISBN to the Kindle edition (which is optional), so a block of 10 would be stupid unless I plan to never create any future works. A block of 100 would probably take care of any future projects that I would want to do, but a block of 1,000 would be sufficient beyond all doubt, and costs less than twice as much as a block of 100.

      On the flip side, if everyone thought as I did, the ISBN system would break pretty quickly through exhaustion of the Bookland EAN space. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is left as a question for debate.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    12. Re:"Very expensive"? by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 1

      The biggest cost (and earn, for the publisher at least) is the promotional costs. You can do what you like to publish and distribute, but if no-one knows your album exists it's almost futile.

    13. Re:"Very expensive"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it is also extremely cheap when compared to, say, licenses for devkits to make games. (or fees you need to pay IF your game is successful, such as 50k units moved or something like that)

      $125 is like $10 a week for a year.
      Anyone who is writing small-scale or higher publications should be more than capable of affording that.
      Smaller than that is most likely local publications or those in poverty. The latter is where one problem lies.
      But as you mentioned, there are free routes to get an ISBN given some research.

    14. Re:"Very expensive"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "$125 is like $10 a week for a year."

      Hmmm ... math is not your strong suit, is it? $125 is like $10 a week for ONE FOURTH of a year.

    15. Re:"Very expensive"? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      He doesn't have very good credit, so he puts it on his "starter" credit card and pays the minimum-- some times.

    16. Re:"Very expensive"? by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      $125 for one ISBN is only "very expensive" when you consider that ten ISBNs is $250. There are plenty of people who are willing to sell you an extra ISBN for cheap.

      I had a look at UK prices, and the price structure is not quite what the article suggests.

      In the UK, you can buy blocks of 10, 100, or 1000. The first purchase is more expensive. You basically pay £50 to become part of their system, plus £70 for 10 ISBNs, so £120 for the first purchase, £70 for the next etc. 100 ISBNs cost about £220 (plus £50 if that is your first purchase), 1000 ISBNs cost about £700. I suppose the US pricing structure will be similar. All in all I'd call it a small annoyance if you want to publish your own book, but no big deal really.

    17. Re:"Very expensive"? by GrumpySteen · · Score: 1

      That said, $125 for an ISBN is only "very expensive" in a country where the average person spends less than $125 for a bag of groceries. Which ain't this one.

      Either you're using 40 gallon garbage bags for your shopping or you're buying a lot of overpriced shit. There's no way in hell you can cram $125 worth of normal groceries into a single bag.

    18. Re:"Very expensive"? by skywire · · Score: 1

      Well, aren't we fortunate to have Your Omniscience around to inform us that $125 is the right price for a monopolist to charge for an ISBN.

      --
      Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    19. Re:"Very expensive"? by Lemming42 · · Score: 1

      Putting out an album with record label backing is 100% analogous to starting a company with VC funding.

      Close, but from what I understand it's actually worse than VC funding.

      With record deals, book deals, and videogame deals you actually pay your debt (advances) out of your cut instead of off the top. That means if you get a 25% cut and owe $100,000 you won't see a dollar until the gross surpasses $400,000.

    20. Re:"Very expensive"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I quite agree - if I was writing my own novel, I wouldn't blink at spending that amount of money. If an 'author' cannot afford this amount of money, please go away and stop cluttering up catalogues.

      The only people I think this affects are those that release ebooks that are really just chapters. I wish those people would get the hint that maybe they shouldn't do that.

    21. Re:"Very expensive"? by WWWWolf · · Score: 1

      On a broader level, one of most baffling things to me has been how little people are willing to invest in their own futures. They'll spend $1,500 on an HDTV, but spend $125 for an ISBN -- when publishing their novel is presumably one of their lifelong dreams -- hell no! I can't afford it! It's so much money!

      Yog's Law: The money flows toward the writer. If it doesn't, then you're pretty obviously doing it wrong. Just how many people in other lines of work are paying to do their work? Silly me, I thought that people are usually paid to do their job.

      The publishing industry has existed for a long time and has found a way to enable people to pay the authors, without any of the parties along the way screwing themselves over. The reason why publishers pay for ISBNs is that they're the risk-takers, and this arrangement works for all parties involved in normal publishing.

      It's silly to assume that this arrangement would be most benefical for all parties in self-publishing scenario. It's silly to assume that ISBN authorities would be somehow entitled to do this same thing with self-publishing authors. And it's silly to assume that authors should be taking the exact same risks as commercial publishers do right now. The right solution would be to offer new mutually benefical arrangements and new approaches. In short, if publishing something requires an ISBN and self-publishers need it for minimal or no cost, offer them at that price. Otherwise, it's just an artificial barrier and it's plain as day that someone's screwing over someone.

    22. Re:"Very expensive"? by gig · · Score: 1

      How about if before you took that $500 college course, you had to get a special ID number for $125 from a bullshit monopolist, increasing the cost of your course to $625? How about if you needed 6 or 7 special ID numbers for that one college course (like a book that is published in 6 or 7 formats,) so you buy 10 of them for $250 and now your course is $750, a 50% markup going to a bullshit monopolist?

      I agree, investing money in schooling or professional opportunities can pay off. But that money should go to teachers and so on, not to people who are milking the fact that they for some reason were sold the only highway that leads to getting these numbers.

      The stupidest part is the Library of Congress doles out ISSN's for free, but instead of doling out ISBN's for free, they direct you to the bullshit private monopolist. If Library of Congress was doing it for free, then we wouldn't have this mess on Kindle where there are thousands of books without ISBN's — that is going to fuck up Library of Congress real bad all by itself. And we'd have more books published and grow the economy. ISBN's are infrastructure, not a private investment or private profit center.

    23. Re:"Very expensive"? by gig · · Score: 1

      You can't trust a resold ISBN to be unique. So that alone shows that the system is broken. It makes no sense at all for anyone to be selling an ISBN to anyone. That is basically just gambling. Casino economy. No product, no benefit, just money changing hands.

      Every book that lacks an ISBN on Kindle and every book that was published with a non-unique ISBN is a huge ball of pain for everybody in publishing plus Library of Congress. You're saying “game on” to that! ISBN's aren't too expensive because hey, you can buy one from a guy I know.

      So as usual, the American way is to privatize public infrastructure (ISBN's, medicine, wireless networks) and then pay more, but get less. In Canada, the ISBN's are free to publishers and it is your civic duty to assign one to your book so that you don't generate massive problems for everyone else as your book goes through its life. And every book has a unique ISBN. In the US, you pay hundreds of dollars to get ISBN's for one book (pay more) yet Amazon encourages you to publish without an ISBN, and people are buying duplicate ISBN's off the back of a truck (get less) and ultimately, Library of Congress will spend more money sorting this out than it would cost them to dole out ISBN's. It is crazy.

  9. GUID? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    Why can't publications have something like GUID?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
    1. Re:GUID? by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      That's kind of what an ISBN is, right?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:GUID? by burisch_research · · Score: 1

      No. GUIDs are free. There's the rub.

      --
      char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
    3. Re:GUID? by maswan · · Score: 2

      So are ISBNs, in many parts of the world. I guess the US has left it to the free market to decide how much the should cost.

    4. Re:GUID? by show+me+altoids · · Score: 1

      How can you say it's the free market when there is only one provider in the US and they have a monopoly?

      --
      I feel sorry for people that don't drink, because when they get up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel
    5. Re:GUID? by SourceFrog · · Score: 1

      That's what kids today call a "free market".

      --
      My other UID is three digits.
    6. Re:GUID? by gig · · Score: 1

      Because ISBN's go back many years and were done in a bureaucratic way. They are 13 digits now but used to have fewer digits.

    7. Re:GUID? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah man, you are free not to get them. Yes, that kinda ruins the whole system, but to hell with that, free market will fix that if it ever needs a way to sort and keep track of publications. They could like.. make companies pay "a tax" and then have "a government" that offers "ISBNs" for free, so every publication can get one, and it's easier for everyone.

  10. expensive by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    The packages for independent authors are very expensive — Bowker charges $125 for a single ISBN,

    This isn't expensive, do you know how much it costs to have an artist draw a cover? For an author, the biggest expense is publisher fees. If you're lucky, they'll only take around 40% of each book you sell. So if you're planning on selling more than 20 copies of your books, then an ISBN number isn't the biggest expense already.

    And that's only if you want to be picky about your ISBN. If you don't care who is listed as the publisher, CreateSpace will give you an ISBN for free.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Compared to the cost of soup, especially when made by a chef, a pinch of salt is inconsequential. Lets delegate all salt production to a monopoly and let it charge $100 per lb, and it will still be very cheap compared to a soup made by chef.

    2. Re:expensive by gig · · Score: 1

      It is expensive because doling out a bullshit number is not comparable to cover art. If the ISBN was $10, that would be $115 extra for the cover artist, or the copy editor, or someone else who is actually contributing to the book with their sweat.

      It is expensive because the print book, ePub, iBook, Kindle, and audio book all require their own ISBN's. And future revisions of the book also require their own ISBN's. In print, that might be 2 revisions — in digital, we might revise an iBook every month.

      It is expensive because in Canada and other countries, ISBN's are free. They didn't establish a private monopoly that can extort money from publishers at every turn.

      It is expensive because there is almost no money in publishing. Publishing houses are full of women because men won't work that cheap. Writers often get a tiny fraction of a book's price.

      With ISRC numbers, which are like ISBN's for sound recordings, every publisher pays a $70 one-time fee and gets their own unique “ISRC prefix,” which is the first 5 characters of an ISRC number. That prefix is to be used by only one publisher, who can then publish 10,000 songs per year for 100 years. You make your own ISRC's by going prefix+2-digit-year+5-digit-serial. That kind of approach is much better. The $70 from each publisher supports the system that doles out the numbers, but doesn't rob the publisher at every turn.

      As for cover artists, they are the lowest of the low on the food chain. Many books don't even have cover art. You pay an editor and copy editor first. If you have some money to buy some bullshit stock photo and stick it on there. So the $250 for an ISBN (because you need a block of 10 for the various formats) might actually be your whole cover art budget — the money that was going to buy a stock photo. Your book might go without cover art because you had to pay through the nose to be doled out a bullshit number.

  11. Centralized registration is always bad. by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    And unnecessary. Get rid of it.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  12. Problems, and a solution by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Funny

    With the explosion in books and book-like devices, the current ISBN scheme is insufficient. We'll soon be facing a world-wide ISBN shortage, especially in the rapidly expanding Asian publishing markets. I am promoting a new long-term solution called ISBNv6, which will provide a 128-bit-long space for book identifiers.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Problems, and a solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't give them any ideas, they only just fully shifted from using dual ISBN-10 and -13 to just ISBN-13.

      Though if they foresaw such a big need to change from 10, maybe they should've moved to something with a bit more breathing room. Hell, just add the ability to use a few letters other than X and go with hexadecimal instead.

    2. Re:Problems, and a solution by nametaken · · Score: 1

      Well played.

      We should get around to using that by the time the Enterprise D is first leaving dry dock, yeah?

    3. Re:Problems, and a solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're gunna charge you this..
      Next year gunna charge more as we have no ideas, other than charging more.. same same

      ISBN's are NOT working.
      Just try buying a book from India, where they are 1/20th the price.
      There is a very deep and deliberate attempt to distort 'one global price for all' and it extends further than books - like drugs and cosmetics as well. As for the 'price' in any public-private deal/ monopoly, there should be a clause in there about global benchmarking, and taking away that monopoly/right when certain 'lines' are crossed.

    4. Re:Problems, and a solution by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      "something something something should be enough for anybody", it's an article about books, use your imagination.

  13. Aren't GUIDs free? by istartedi · · Score: 1

    Aren't GUIDs free, and ubiquitous on Microsoft platforms, what... 20 years ago?

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    1. Re:Aren't GUIDs free? by burisch_research · · Score: 0

      For all intensive purposes,

      Ok, I've been seeing you post this for quite some time, and it's never failed to annoy me. Granted, at some point I did think this really was correct and/or valid. But it's not.

      The correct phrase is, "For all INTENTS AND PURPOSES" ...

      This makes a lot more sense, no?

      Please change your .sig. It bothers me. :)

      --
      char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
    2. Re:Aren't GUIDs free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      he's 'prolly' trying to annoy you.

      jr

    3. Re:Aren't GUIDs free? by show+me+altoids · · Score: 1

      Well, this char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);} crap isn't even a word. Please destroy it immediately. Yes, it is quite obviously a joke.

      --
      I feel sorry for people that don't drink, because when they get up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel
    4. Re:Aren't GUIDs free? by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      Off-topic, but...I've been assuming that sig is a joke, since it also misuses "begs the question".

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    5. Re:Aren't GUIDs free? by gig · · Score: 1

      I don't know about Microsoft platforms, but in bash there is uuidgen command that makes GUIDs.

  14. cryptographic hash by marvinglenn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Especially for digital books, but to be used on the digital information that a regular book is printed from... a cryptographic hash of the book is the book identifier. Decentralized, unlikely to have a number collision, and the added bonus of a mechanism to make sure that the book you received is the book you wanted. The only thing that needs to be centralized is the decision of which hash to use, how to hash the data, and how to represent the hash as to the user.

    --
    The whores get mad when the sluts give it away for free.
    1. Re:cryptographic hash by burisch_research · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Books go through many revisions. The link may be referring to an outdated version; and while it's possible you might WANT that old version, chances are that you want the most recent one. This destroys the hash argument, I'm afraid.

      --
      char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
    2. Re:cryptographic hash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. The hash will change with different editions.
      Unless they do something retarded, like republish the same book without even updating the year of publication.

    3. Re:cryptographic hash by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      With paper books, does each revision share the same ISBN? That seems like it would be really bad for inventory control.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    4. Re:cryptographic hash by gig · · Score: 1

      ISBN uniquely identifies just one book, not one book title. If you revise the book, it gets a new ISBN.

      Also, the paper book, the ePub, the iBook, the Kindle book, and the audio book all get their own ISBN's.

      So a book that is revised 3 times and ships in 5 formats needs 15 different ISBN's.

      > bad for inventory control

      Just the opposite. The way you can identify the older versions of a book is by their unique ISBN's. So you stop selling the old ISBN, and start selling the new ISBN. If they both have the same ISBN, how do you now which are old and which are new? Looking at them? We have numbers so we don't have to sort books manually.

    5. Re:cryptographic hash by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      So a book that is revised 3 times and ships in 5 formats needs 15 different ISBN's.

      Thanks for the answer. So perhaps a crypto hash isn't a bad method for indexing.

      > bad for inventory control

      Just the opposite. The way you can identify the older versions of a book is by their unique ISBN's.

      Agreed - I argued that sharing an ISBN would be bad for inventory control.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  15. I understand its purpose but... by jtownatpunk.net · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Laura Dawson, the product manager for identifiers at Bowker, insists that ISBNs are relevant and won't be replaced anytime soon

    When you have to insist that your product is relevant, that's a bad sign.

    1. Re:I understand its purpose but... by gig · · Score: 1

      They could be replaced by URL's, i.e. the identifier for “On the Road” could be jackkerouac.com/on/the/road and could lead to a website with credits and other metadata.

    2. Re:I understand its purpose but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you have to insist that your product is relevant, that's a bad sign.

      We keep telling Linux users that but they get all pissy for some reason.

  16. Hash the content by jfisherwa · · Score: 1

    Make an MD5 hash of the book's contents.

  17. You're wrong; starving artists can't afford that. by MSRedfox · · Score: 1

    These days, sure that kind of money seems like nothing. But back when I was young, I dealt with the whole starving artist thing. Money was super tight, living paycheck to paycheck. $125 for a bag of groceries? More like $20-40 for the week. And $2500 to record an album, that was more than my car cost then. A simple cheap car repair was able to devastate my budget. You're working on the basis that self-published authors have decent jobs. So yes, $125 is something to bitch about. That's a lot of money when you're scraping by and trying to get your first bits of work out there. Especially when you know that early in your self-publishing career, it's very likely it might not even sell enough to recoup that, even if the work is good.

  18. Publisher, I am by burisch_research · · Score: 1

    Well not really. I work for a company that's part of a large group, and one of the group's subsidiaries is a massive publisher of legal books. My question is: is it worthwhile to get these books onto DOI, host them online, and then somehow drive sales through this? In the DOI documentation, while I've not searched extensively, it seems there's no built-in mechanism for purchases.

    Is this worthwhile to pursue?

    --
    char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
  19. Re: assumptions, anyone? by almechist · · Score: 1

    I've listened to long harangues from musicians about how unjust the music industry is, and it turns out all they need is $2,500 to put out an album that's already been written AND recorded. I just can't understand it -- if it's that important to you, if this is what you really want to do with your life, why wouldn't you just put $2,500 on your credit card and damn the consequences?

    Boy, that's some assumption you're making there. Are you really so out of touch that you just assume every musician must have a credit card, let alone one with $2500 or more credit left on it? I wish you the best with your writing career, but you need to familiarize (or perhaps re-familiarize) yourself with the term "starving artist". It doesn't matter that you were once broke yourself, the fact remains that for a whole lot of musicians, especially those just starting out in the biz, or who come from low-income neighborhoods, yes, that kind of money is indeed going to be totally out of the question. If they do happen to have a credit card, it's already maxed out, believe me. Following your dreams is just not all that easy in modern-day America, not if you're one of the 99%.

  20. Ripoff City by pubwvj · · Score: 1

    I was in publishing for a long time. The whole ISBN system is a major ripoff designed to fatten their wallets. It is much like, but much worse, than the domain name scam. There is no justification for the $10/year cost of domain names and no justification for the $125 to $25 cost of ISBN numbers. That is, no justification other than that they have a monopoly and can charge dang well what they please. Time to crush these monopolies.

    1. Re:Ripoff City by itsdapead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is no justification for the $10/year cost of domain names

      Good domain names are a limited resource (sure there are a gazillion possible combinations but nobody wants to be kz67uip95zqtn.com or johnsmithfrompowercablenebraskabutnottheonthatlivesonwashingtonstreet.org). Until we live in some post-scarcity socialist nirvana where our disputes can be mediated by infinitely wise AIs then they will have a value. (...and even then, look at how long the names get in Banks's Culture books!)

      If domain names were free, or lasted forever for a small fee, then the cybersquatters would be busy running scripts to systematically register every likely combination of English words , and you'd all have to buy back your domains from them for whatever they wanted to charge. The domain name market is Wild West enough at the moment, thanks very much.

      At least a monopoly has some sort of accountability.

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    2. Re:Ripoff City by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      kz67uip95zqtn.com

      Dang, now I'm going to have to find a new name for my website! :P

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    3. Re:Ripoff City by ediron2 · · Score: 1

      CS101: Using live data as a primary key is bad database design in part because of the risk of two records wanting the same key.

      Yet DNS does this. Artificial scarcity (and any alternative of gloom and doom) is a byproduct of an intrinsically flawed design. Call me crazy, but names, companies, etc all manage to cope despite redundancies by us resorting to more keys than just the name.

      Inertia means DNS names being unique is a 'problem' unlikely to be 'fixed'. But don't trumpet $1.4B (ballpark -- 140M domains, $10 apiece) being charged users as a necessary evil because of domain squatters.

    4. Re:Ripoff City by gig · · Score: 1

      If domain names were free, squatters would run scripts to register every possible character combination, then sell them to the highest bidder. The price of domain names would go up.

      To be free, there would have to be rules like you have to put up a real website before you register the name, and if the server goes offline for a month you lose the name.

  21. Re:You're wrong; starving artists can't afford tha by 1u3hr · · Score: 2

    So yes, $125 is something to bitch about. That's a lot of money when you're scraping by and trying to get your first bits of work out there. Especially when you know that early in your self-publishing career, it's very likely it might not even sell enough to recoup that, even if the work is good.

    Realistically, if you have no other income than self publishing, you are dead broke and you should get a job flipping burgers and write on your time off. I know a lot of authors, literally hundreds, since I work in publishing. Only a handful make a living out of it. Most of those started as journalists. Not one could pay the rent from self publishing. And here, ISBNs are free, and printing is very cheap. It's marketing that's hard, and self publishing means you have a hundred times as much competition.

  22. Re:You're wrong; starving artists can't afford tha by 0123456 · · Score: 1

    Realistically, if you have no other income than self publishing, you are dead broke and you should get a job flipping burgers and write on your time off.

    I know a couple of dozen people making their living from self-publishing, none of them the 'best-sellers' you see stories about on the web. That's a small fraction of the number of people who've self-published, but they're doing much better than a new trade-published writer with a $5,000 advance... or the hordes of wannabe trade-published writers sending out their books for years hoping that someone will eventually give them that $5,000 advance.

  23. Years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I worked for the European branch of a US-based publisher. Head office decided that to save a few bucks they would re-use ISBNs rather than buy more. I tried really hard to explain why, given that our entire inventory, sales, royalty and accounting systems used the ISBN as the primary/foreign key on all book-related tables, this was a bad idea. They went ahead anyway.

    The choice of key wasn't mine and was too deeply embedded to change, at least it would cost a *lot* more than new ISBNs for new titles.

  24. Re:Amazon has it covered, making ISBN less relevan by _Shad0w_ · · Score: 4, Informative

    Because ISBN numbers are also a unique identifier; they fulfil bibliographic and cataloguing functions. With an ISBN number you not only know what book is being referenced, but also which edition of that book, and what format that book was in (a book published as an eBook and as a paper book will have different ISBN number for both).

    --

    Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.

  25. Amazon won't kill ISBNs, but the WWW might by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    Because ISBN numbers are also a unique identifier; they fulfil bibliographic and cataloguing functions.

    But who needs old school bibliographic and cataloguing functions for self-published books when we have URLs for citation, search engines and social networks to find new material, and any number of services that authors can use to collect payment in return for supplying an electronic copy directly?

    ISBNs are basically irrelevant to electronic self-publishers in the era of the World Wide Web, because you can supply a PDF or similar document as easily as an HTML page.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:Amazon won't kill ISBNs, but the WWW might by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      URLs change.

    2. Re:Amazon won't kill ISBNs, but the WWW might by Rozzin · · Score: 1
      --
      -rozzin.
    3. Re:Amazon won't kill ISBNs, but the WWW might by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      And books go out of print. An ISBN no more guarantees that you can find a copy of the book once published with that ID than a URL guarantees that the web site where the PDF e-book was sold will still be there. But permalink-type URLs don't change by magic any more than ISBNs do, so I'm not sure I see a huge problem here.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    4. Re:Amazon won't kill ISBNs, but the WWW might by gig · · Score: 1

      Library of Congress, for one. They need ISBN's. Every bookstore with the exception of Amazon, who are a technology company and have worked around that. Every publisher, whose systems are all setup assuming ISBN's.

      URL's are not suitable, because that requires managing the domain name and server, and paying for both. When that fails, the book becomes unidentifiable. Further, there is no standard for how to structure the URL, how to read it. How long can your book URL be?

      An ISBN is more akin to the unique identifier in a website's database than it is to the website's URL's.

      Even if you have a book URL like jackkerouac.com/on/the/road — that book is available in possibly hundreds of editions, each with its own ISBN. For example, the audio book has its own ISBN. The paperback has its own. Another paperback with different cover art has its own. How do you state all that in the URL? You can't even use jackkerouac.com/paperback/on/the/road because there are dozens of paperbacks. So you end up thinking about things like jackkerouac.com/095F013A-15A0-43A0-A384-6E2DF3301399 which is essentially a non-standard ISBN. Is the database at a book retailer setup to hold that? Probably not. Is it better than an ISBN? Probably not.

      ISBN's used to be shorter, they were upped to 13 characters. The best way forward, in my opinion, is to up them again to 32 characters and use UUID's, which a publisher can use a tool like uuidgen (ships with every Mac) to generate a unique number on their own, without any central database that has to make sure no duplicates are given out. Although it would require a lot of work to do that, it would at least solve the problem for the foreseeable future. It could be phased in as “electronic ISBN's” and apply to eBooks only at first.

    5. Re:Amazon won't kill ISBNs, but the WWW might by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can however be pretty confident that once you find the book with the right ISBN it actually is the book you were looking for. Not so with random websites, PDFs, etc. The author might have corrected something, made new version and so on.

    6. Re:Amazon won't kill ISBNs, but the WWW might by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I agree with much of what you say. I just don't see why it's relevant to someone who wants to self-publish electronically and doesn't care about formal publishers and bricks 'n' mortar stores and all the other dinosaurs and parasites in the traditional book industry. The fact that not having an ISBN makes life more difficult for those other organisations is their problem, not the author's or the immediate reader's.

      One issue that I do think is going to become increasingly important is keeping historical archives. In times gone by, when it was clear that a book had been published and your national reference library was automatically entitled to claim a physical copy, there was a socially useful function being served. In the Internet era and with the rise of self-publishing, there is no equivalent to that clear publication date and version for a lot of good material. In fact, that material doesn't even need to be a big, formal, paid-for item like an e-book or PDF; it might just be a personal web site full of great content about the author's favourite hobby or personal research interest. There are many issues with how to deal with the "digital dark age" that comes from fast-evolving, transient content that might be available only for a limited time or might be protected by some sort of DRM or trapped in a large walled garden, and I think there is a real risk that just as we are learning to share human knowledge and creative works more effectively than ever before, we might also be locking those things up so that they are lost to future generations (or even current generations in just a few years' time). But I don't think something as simple as trying to assign an ISBN to any self-published e-book is really going to solve the problem of version controlling the Internet with due respect to both authors' interests today and humanity's interests tomorrow.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    7. Re:Amazon won't kill ISBNs, but the WWW might by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Used bookstores and libraries are quite useful for finding out of print books.

    8. Re:Amazon won't kill ISBNs, but the WWW might by snadrus · · Score: 1

      Agreed. We need knowledge to be available long-term. The only reason this story feels irrelevant is because we've given-up on going to Libraries to get information. Unencrypted Epub as a standard may be a good start, but there's nothing pushing for this. The libraries were the strongest opposers of copyright extension & DRM, strangely the rise of the Internet weakened their say & let the publishing industries push copyright absurdly.

      --
      Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
  26. $11.79 for a single ISBN in The Netherlands. by CdXiminez · · Score: 2

    $125 for a single ISBN is very expensive. In The Netherlands a single ISBN is €9.07 ($11.79).
    https://portal.boekhuis.nl/isbn/informatie/tarieven

    1. Re:$11.79 for a single ISBN in The Netherlands. by Frankie70 · · Score: 2

      You are talking about mass produced ISBNs. Each American ISBN is hand made by a very skilled Artisan who puts in a lot of love and effort into it.

    2. Re:$11.79 for a single ISBN in The Netherlands. by DKlineburg · · Score: 1

      Sorry, that is the past. They are bought from overseas for cheap now. Each number has a tiny "made in china" stamp on the side when turned in a 3d direction. They just want you to believe it is Artisan, that is a hype word right now.

      --
      Memory is deceptive because it is colored by today's events. - Albert Einstein
    3. Re:$11.79 for a single ISBN in The Netherlands. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's free here in Norway.

  27. What a stupid example by Frankie70 · · Score: 0

    They'll spend $1,500 on an HDTV, but spend $125 for an ISBN -- when publishing their novel is presumably one of their lifelong dreams -- hell no! I can't afford it!

    What is the making cost of the ISBN? i.e. cost of raw materials, cost of transporting it to the customer etc?

    What if they charged 10000$ for an ISBN. Then you would say people buy a car for 15000$ but aren't willing to spend 10000$ for an ISBN.

  28. Stupid by Frankie70 · · Score: 1

    This isn't expensive, do you know how much it costs to have an artist draw a cover?

    No, it is expensive. Something doesn't become not expensive because other non-comparable stuff is more expensive.

    You are comparing the cost of something which costs nothing to make, nothing to transport with something which involves time spent by a skilled artist.

  29. stupid by Frankie70 · · Score: 1

    Hashes collide.
    There are far simpler solutions which actually don't have such problems.

  30. Get ISBNs free from Library of Congress by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    Laak ah sed. Yo ain't need no pay nobody foh ISBNs bro.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    1. Re:Get ISBNs free from Library of Congress by gig · · Score: 1

      How? Do you have a link or do you just not know what you are talking about?

    2. Re:Get ISBNs free from Library of Congress by gig · · Score: 1

      From http://www.loc.gov/publish/

      The Library of Congress does not administer or distribute International Standard Book Numbers.
      Please contact R.R. Bowker at:
      630 Central Avenue
      New Providence, NJ 07974

      Tel: (877) 310-7333
      Fax: (908) 665-2895

  31. ISBN's are free in Canada by gig · · Score: 1

    My Canadian friend got her own ISBN prefix for free, so she can publish as many books as she wants, all with matching ISBN prefix. But me, I have to pay a hundred bucks per book, and my ISBN's won't match. Typical US privatization bullshit highway robbery, just like the private cell networks and private medical care. These are not private sector pursuits, they are infrastructure that enables more and better private sector pursuits.

  32. Re:You're wrong; starving artists can't afford tha by gig · · Score: 1

    > Realistically, if you have no other income than self publishing, you are dead broke
    > and you should get a job flipping burgers and write on your time off.

    Take out “self“ and it is just as true and just as stupid.

    You're forgetting that many authors today have published both ways. There is not necessarily a bunch of self-publishers separate from everyone else.

    Print publishing collapsed for good in 2009. The cost of paper is 200% the cost of a book. There are hundreds of thousands of missing books — books that should have been published by a healthy publishing industry but were not simply because of paper costs. We published fewer and fewer books every year of the 21st century, not because people were reading less, but because paper was too expensive.

    Now, a writer can write his or her manuscript, hire an editor, drop the manuscript into iBooks Author and/or export it from Pages as ePub, and publish a book where they keep 70% of retail. A print book might be 5% for the writer, or less. And with iBooks Author, you can do interactivity, audio, video, 3D — you can for example do a cookbook that is part cookbook and part cooking show, with interactivity that asks you how many you want to serve and then does the math on the recipe so your ingredients are exactly right, and even links you out to an online service that will deliver those ingredients. That is the kind of thing that makes readers reach for their wallets.

    So even though my print books were done by a giant publisher and sold in dozens of countries and translated into 25 languages, my electronic books make me more money, and are much more fun to make, much more creative.

    There are authors making $1 million per year from Kindle romance novels. I never heard of a romance writer making $1 million lifetime in print books.

    So I sympathize somewhat with your negativity because yes, publishing as an industry is fucked right now. However, I think we are just in a transition between print and digital, and readers are sick of the tired content on the Web and more and more people want to pay a cheap price for something great rather than get something awful for free. So it is getting better and I think the industry will be healthy soon, when it takes advantage of digital instead of fighting it, and when even more people have iPads with Retina Display. Buying and reading books on iPad is easier than surfing the Web, and even with low cover prices, we can make more money than expensive print books.