France Demands Skype Register As a Telco

jfruh writes "Skype made a name for itself by largely bypassing the infrastucture — and the costs, and the regulations — of the legacy telecommunications industry. But now the French telecom regulator wants to change that, at least in France. At issue is not the service's VoIP offering, but rather the Skype Out service that allows users to dial phones on traditional networks. Regulators say that this service necessitates that Skype face the same regulations as other telecoms."

Comments

As anal as France is....

[SerpentMage]

While France has many many funny laws and ideas, many of which I think are bogus. But on this one IMO they are right. If Skype connected directly at the user to a telephone then IMO it would be a different picture. However, SKYPE acts on behalf of the user and hence they are doing the same thing as a telco, albeit not a completely telco.

Re:As anal as France is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me just state for the record. If France is on one side of an issue ...
There is about a 92.6% chance I am on the other.

And a 100% chance you can walk around the end of the issue and get behind them.

Re:As anal as France is....

[donaldm]

The internet was turned loose to the world for a free exchange of information to improve and enhance the species and our lives.

I am not sure if that is the case. It is best to study a timeline such as here , however the most interesting thing about the Internet is that it grew before Governments could put controls on it. Even today Governments are still playing catch-up, however in democratic countries it is almost political suicide for any government to put legislation in place for tighter control of the Internet although that does not stop some politicians (you know the "Holier than thou" or "think of the Children" types) from trying.

Re:As anal as France is....

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Way back when, BBS networks would sometimes let their modems be used by people to dial out locally. It's sickening that some government thugs are trying to ladle massive regulatory burden on such.

Re:As anal as France is....

[countach]

Except that Skype facilitates incoming calls only, so they are more like a foreign telco than a local one. And because they don't provide POTS to consumers, it is impossible to fulfill France's telco requirements to be able to identifiy the location of an emergency call. At best, France's laws are out of step with the 21st century. Or else, no Skype is like a foreign telco, routing incoming calls, and not a local telco, which provides outgoing calls.

Re:As anal as France is....

[TheGavster]

I've always seen the legitimizing factor in telecom regulation as being that they consume a finite public resource, either in the form of right-of-ways for wiring or spectrum for wireless operations. In exchange for exclusive access to the resources and, correspondingly, a monopoly (or oligopoly) on the service, limits are placed on rates and otherwise economically inviable services are mandated (such as rural access). In the case of Skype, while they certainly threaten telephone monopolies which rely on dedicated wiring in a right of way, I don't see any limited public resource whose consumption needs regulation. An unlimited number of providers could offer Internet telephony service and not overload telephone poles or drown each other in radio noise (assuming that there is finite demand, actual load (customers) on should be the same no matter how many buckets they're in).

Re:As anal as France is....

[TsuruchiBrian]

Except that they never actually had to install any physical telecommunications equipment. They provide an overlay network. It is a network that uses the existing phone and internet networks to provide functionality. They take advantage of the fact that communication over a phone handset is fundamentally no different than sending bits over the internet. An actual telecom company provides access to some public resource that they were granted stewardship over by a government (e.g. phone lines, fiber cables, wireless spectrum, etc). In some cases they actually own those resources. This just seems like another case of a European government trying to shakedown a rich company for money, (e.g. Microsoft, etc).

If I was skype I would just turn off access to France and let the people fire their politicians then turn it back on.

It won't be long before Europe declares wikipedia and youtube public utilities and start trying to extort money from them too

Re:As anal as France is....

[xQx]

So, we have those regulations in Australia too, and the sky didn't fall.

IP Telephony providers have had very little problem complying with this archaic regulation.

The clincher is that it's just as difficult to tell where a call originates when it's on a mobile network. You can, at best, tell what tower it is on. Not much use on a block with a high-rise apartment building.

With IP, the theory goes:
1. If the call originates from an IP Address that is fixed (eg. DSL) in location, give that location.
2. If it's not, but you know the address of the IP, give that location
3. Otherwise, give the billing address of the customer's service.

The problem in Australia is that the database isn't at all dynamic. You put the address in and in a few days it's available to emergency services - so, when someone calls from a mobile phone (that's not on the telstra network) or an IP Phone, emergency services get the billing address.

IMHO - If Skypeout is achieved by making international calls into France, then France can go jump. But if they've got a carrier interface (SS7 gateways and the like) inside the country's borders then they can put up with the same laws that the other Telco's in France (ie. their local competition) do.

Re:As anal as France is....

[kelemvor4]

Absolutely - but I suspect this is in the 8%. And their cheese isn't bad either.

They make good fries and toast! While many slashdotters have not tried it, their kiss ain't too shabby either.

Re:As anal as France is....

[femtobyte]

I see you didn't bother to read the article summary. When Skype connects users to *actual land-line phones,* they are using the same limited publicly-subsidized infrastructure as every other telco. This is the rationale for regulation, not Skype's internet-only telephony practices.

Re:As anal as France is....

[flyneye]

I'm making a knee-to-the-nuts reaction to France(not the people, the government) and any other morons who try to attach charges to emerging technologies in order to sustain their old tech(which I didn't miss, did you?). Kind of like buggywhip manufacturers whining for a tax on automobiles.
No, screw them. Phones are bad,clunky and OLD! Their business model is tired. The phone companies should be regulated till their stockholders give up, then be absorbed by newer technologies with better ideas. If this is the best the French can do, Fire them and replace them with Germans.
What good is an ally who has to HIRE their army? My first boots were my oldest, but they're far too small and worn to be of any use.
So go scratch your ass , til you figure it out.

Re:As anal as France is....

[AmiMoJo]

No, the justification is that telephony is a vital service in the modern world. You need it just to live, otherwise basic stuff like getting a job or dealing with your government is near impossible.

In exchange for being allowed to provide a vital service everyone needs and which is thus a somewhat captive market you have to meet some basic requirements.

Re:As anal as France is....

[kthreadd]

Dude, there's a lot of Americans and most of them are great.

Re:As anal as France is....

[silentcoder]

Would that include all those ideas like Republicanism, liberalism, liberty, freedom, free trade, private property, free speech and such which the American founding fathers (particularly Franklin) actually learned FROM the French ?

Would it include the independence of America from Britain (without a fortune in French funding the American revolution could never have succeeded).

Oh I know, you must have a problem with them thinking that going to war for no other reason than to make your cronies rich is unwise ?

I'm lost, I suspect you are American - so why would you not love the French, they have been America's single most helpful ally, indeed your greatest friend for centuries.

Re:As anal as France is....

[Eunuchswear]

France should turn itself over to England, who seem to be sensible and close enough to babysit these silly pricks.

The UK? That dead-end backwater. The place that is so sensible that it's planning to institute a tax on poor people who have "too many bedrooms"?

French GDP/Capita 44,007 USD
UK GDP/Capita 38,811 USD

What has the UK done since 1945?

UK electricity ~ 20% nuclear
France ~ 80% nuclear

UK high speed rail lines: 1 (which goes to France)
France: around 6

UK space effort - launched one 66Kg satellite in 1971
France - Arianespace

UK exports (2011) $479,200,000,000 (10th in world)
France: $589,700,000,000 (5th in world)

Current account balance deficit (smaller is better!)

UK (#2 after USA) 162.973 billion USD
France (#4) 117.676 billion USD

Re:As anal as France is....

[flyneye]

"What has the UK done since 1945?"
Well, their contribution to rock & roll , entertaining dialects, beer and drama still trump anything France has done in that time period.

"UK electricity ~ 20% nuclear
France ~ 80% nuclear"
France generates more Nuclear waste? England generates more wind power. Was there a discernible point?

"UK space effort - launched one 66Kg satellite in 1971
France - Arianespace"
I attend many lavish fireworks displays, but I don't feel obliged to pay for one. So France throws its money around on a space program that could be covered by others.

"UK exports (2011) $479,200,000,000 (10th in world)
France: $589,700,000,000 (5th in world)"
The U.K. seems to specialize in administration, let them administer Frances output for a higher yield. Good point.

"UK (#2 after USA) 162.973 billion USD
France (#4) 117.676 billion USD"
I believe a business deal could be struck where France is leased to China to pay off the U.K. debt.

Re:As anal as France is....

[Eunuchswear]

"What has the UK done since 1945?"

Well, their contribution to rock & roll , entertaining dialects, beer and drama still trump anything France has done in that time period

Come, on Johny Haliday and 1664 beer are much better than anything the UK has been able to produce.

"UK electricity ~ 20% nuclear
France ~ 80% nuclear"

France generates more Nuclear waste? England generates more wind power. Was there a discernible point?

The UK generates more CO2. (And lets it's nuclear waste leak all over the show instead of reprocessing it).

"UK space effort - launched one 66Kg satellite in 1971
France - Arianespace"

I attend many lavish fireworks displays, but I don't feel obliged to pay for one. So France throws its money around on a space program that could be covered by others.

Arianespace (sometimes) makes a profit.

The U.K. seems to specialize in administration, let them administer Frances output for a higher yield. Good point.

Ok, you've trumped me. That's the best joke I've heard all week.

Re:As anal as France is....

[tehcyder]

Johny Haliday and 1664 beer are much better than anything the UK has been able to produce.

Now you are just being a silly person. Johny Haliday is not exactly the Beatles and 1664 is just another moderately good lager. Go away before I taunt you.

I am all for it.

[gagol]

Especially since Skype out is more expensive than my current voip provider, they have the money for it and interoperate with the POTS.

Re:I am all for it.

[MightyYar]

You are right - I just checked mine (CallCentric), and their rate is 0.0198 USD to France, while Skype is 0.023 USD.

Re:I am all for it.

[cheater512]

Yup. Even if you made 1 call a month my VoIP provider still beats Skype.

I had a call yesterday over Skype and I found the quality absolutely awful compared to my VoIP line as well.

Re:I am all for it.

[houghi]

http://progx.ch/home-voip-prixbetamax-3-1-1.html
The one I selected I use to call my family living in another country. I just phone a local number and there I form the number. I pay nothing for the local number with my plan and then 2 euro cents per minute.
This however after a 90 days free calling after a top up. I always just pay 10EUR.
Some even have a 120 freedays. So each tinme you pay 10EUR you get to call free for 10 days to many countries, including your own (If that is possible)

Correct

[geekoid]

And they are correct. You tie into the Telco, you need to play by the regulations for Telco.

Re:Correct

[hawguy]

And they are correct. You tie into the Telco, you need to play by the regulations for Telco.

Why? Skype isn't providing traditional telephones, they are using gateways that interface with the Telco network (thus are ultimately controlled by the Telcos) -- the Telco is providing the physical telephone lines, not Skype.

If a computer-to-computer call is not regulated, why should the computer end of a computer-to-landline call be regulated? The landline side is already regulated, what makes the computer side different just because it's able to call a landline?

Re:Correct

[geekoid]

As am I; however most telco system have regulatory requirements, so it's reasonable that anyone using the phone system would also need to have the regulations. This is specifically about that features in Skype, not calls that are strictly voip.

I would suspect any Telco would do the same.

Re:Correct

[ADRA]

You give yourself a physical presence in local markets because it IS cheaper than routing over an incumbent toll carrier. Take out your hardware, and the skype out feature would cost substantially more for the feature (which is why they have hardware there to begin with). As long as France's standards apply across all competitors, then I see no problem with this.

Re:Correct

[cheater512]

Because both ends of the landline call need to be regulated. It has nothing to do with the computer aspect of it.

Re:Correct

[ADRA]

Skype in this case is taking the place of an inter-exchange carrier as described generally in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interexchange_carrier

In the US, these entities are in fact regulated, and I imagine its the same in France. If they're acting in the same fashion (but with slightly different physical characteristics), why wouldn't those same laws apply to them? If you want fully de-regulate the long distance phone providers as being telecommunications entities that's one thing, but applying one set of rules because its half tethered off the internet doesn't change the nature of what these companies do.

Re:Correct

[MightyYar]

As long as France's standards apply across all competitors, then I see no problem with this.

I see no problem with it, so long as the original reason for the regulation still applies. In other words, what would be the consequences if Skype (or other VOIP services) were to NOT follow the regulations?

Re:Correct

[hawguy]

Skype in this case is taking the place of an inter-exchange carrier as described generally in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interexchange_carrier

In the US, these entities are in fact regulated, and I imagine its the same in France. If they're acting in the same fashion (but with slightly different physical characteristics), why wouldn't those same laws apply to them? If you want fully de-regulate the long distance phone providers as being telecommunications entities that's one thing, but applying one set of rules because its half tethered off the internet doesn't change the nature of what these companies do.

I don't see it. From the article "An IXC carries traffic, usually voice traffic, between telephone exchanges." Skype isn't carrying traffic between exchanges, instead they are acting as a long wire from the point of entry to the Telco network to the end user's computer. The management of a large building may provide a long wire from the building MPOE to an office on the 55th floor, but that doesn't make them an IXC.

I think Skype is more like a CLEC (with a very large "local area"), but they aren't that either -- they buy their phone numbers and telco access from a regulated CLEC.

Re:Correct

[currently_awake]

I would very much like to see the internet regulated like the phone system. The rule about no tapping phones without a court order sounds wonderful.

Where does Skype connect to France's phone system?

[Anonymous Coward]

If Skype has VOIP-to-POTS gateways physically located in France, they need to follow France's legacy telecom rules. If the gateways are located elsewhere (e.g. in another EU country), France shouldn't have any standing to impose their regulations on them.

Possible response

[c0lo]

MS not offering anymore "Skype Out" in France... Who's going to lose? Well, it's the worst kind of solution, in which everybody loses something and nobody wins (not even the French VoIP providers: the greatest majority of Skype-out calls happens just because the called is not online and the caller would like her/him to join a Skype-to-Skype session. A SMS - direct or via Twitter - would achieve pretty much the same thing).

I live in France, and see no need for this...

[Bearhouse]

OK, they brought us the Minitel. Er, thanks...

I've been here for more than 20 years, and have really enjoyed being financially fucked in the ass by the France Telecom monopoly, swiftly followed by the FT/SFR duopoly, and then Bouygues came along and, tada!, we had the same old...overpriced, underserviced.

Fortunately, after years off battling the well-captured 'regulators', Free has finally got things moving somewhat in the right direction.

My point? Skype buys its out calling service from these fine, regulated companies. It is not a telco in the traditional sense, so leave it alone.

Btw, not a Skype/MS shill, although I freely admit i have found it incredibly useful over the years, and it has saved me and my family a ton of money. Right now moving to Jitsi...it's getting there. (Waiting for Android and iOs clients, please)

Re:I live in France, and see no need for this...

[trainsnpep]

Just to clarify for those of you who don't live in France, Free is a local utility with low cost plans. Cheap mobile (I pay about $25/month for unlimited calls within France, unlimited calls to 40 countries, unlimited texts, and 3GB/month at 4G speeds). Cheap at-home triple play.

Re:Why Silicon Valley did not happen in France

[geekoid]

the interest isn't sudden. It started as soon as skype started selling this feature in France.

Re:Then Leave

[geekoid]

"France taxes the crap out of its citizens so we should have seen this coming."
which has nothing to do with this issue.

But hay, just jump on your ignorant bandwagon and toot the crazy horn.

France's person income tax is 0% to 75%..not just 75%. and with Bouclier Fiscal I don't think very many people, if any, pay 75% since it needs to be 1.2million pr more with 2 adults. Not only to the France have a different word for everything, they also have a different tax system.

Perspective:
If you were a family of 2 adults and 3 children making 100,000 Euros you tax rate would be 14%

France taxes, in the real world, are on par, and sometime less then the US taxes..and they have more services.

And of cours,e saying ;'high taxes' is pretty meaningless.
What are the service you get? whats the VALUE overall

Re:2 words

[roman_mir]

Music therapy.

You both need it to take care of your issue and to learn about gov't regulations introduced now to stop competition and keep prices up, prevent (lower income) people from making income in that field.

But ifÂSB 1437Âpasses, anyone who wants to become a music therapist will face some onerous barriers: an applicant would need a bachelorâ(TM)s degree in music therapy from a program approved by the American Music Therapy Association (AMTA), at least 1,200 hours of clinical training, and 900 hours of internship experience. Practicing or calling oneself a music therapist without a government permission slip would be criminalized, with violators facing up to aÂ$500 fine and/or 30 days imprisonment.

That's what gov't regulations are all about, that and taking ppl for their money. Providing an innovating service ppl like? Ha, we are gov't, it would really be sad if you didn't pay up and something bad happened to your business.

Call Termination

[Frankie70]

France can always prevent call termination on France's POTs numbers.

Re:Then Leave

[SomeKDEUser]

Because "French taxes are high" is oft-repeated, irritating, mostly-wrong, truthiness.

Is the French taxation regime inefficient? yes, but mostly because a lot of the redistribution it is meant to produce is in the form of market-distorting goods and services instead of cash. Also, capital gains are, like everywhere else, insufficiently taxed.

But the level of taxation is pretty much the European average. Higher than the US? Yes. Better value for money? Probably.

Re:Then Leave

[geekoid]

France doesn'r relly have high taxes.

I am defensive for several reasons:
1) the word taxes has become a knee jerk scare word. Being further seperated form services. Meaning peopel talk about cutting taxes, and everyone loves it. A politician saying that the result is loosing servcies, and everyone villifys them.

2) IT's about value.

3) France is the US's first and oldest ally. The US would not exist without France. The general anti-france meme in the US is short sight, unfair, and based in complete ignorance.

Then when people say ignorant shit like "France taxes the crap out of its citizens so we should have seen this coming."
it just general irritates me. It is used to scare people. "You don't want to be like France, there healthcare means that are taxed really high!"

Re:Why Silicon Valley did not happen in France

[mad flyer]

This comment coming from the land of the porkbarrel project is pathetically laughable...

Re:2 words

[digsbo]

You nailed it; non-productive people running a racket against productive people. Like the Mafia, but you can't legally shoot them in self-defense. Should we apply RICO to government? roman_mir, I've seen your posts, and I think they are pretty insightful, but I seriously cannot comprehend how you have the energy to deal with the legion that comes down on you every time. Right or wrong, I don't care - I just don't know how/why you continue.

Re:Why Silicon Valley did not happen in France

[whoever57]

The more people who start bypassing the moldy old POTS network altogether and communicate IP to IP, the better off we'll all be..... Sadly they won't be able to communicate their existence to the rest of the world due to the system's complete lack of interoperability.

And be replaced by what? The closed-source, proprietary protocol Skype?

Imagine that POTS is shut down and all that is left is a bunch of proprietary VOIP services, none of which interoperate with each other. Yeah, that's really a step forward!

Re:Why Silicon Valley did not happen in France

[Solozerk]

(disclaimer: I am French)

Seems to me that France should really be embracing open source with open arms -- I bet the only thing holding them back is that so much open source material has already been created by dirty English speakers ;)

The entire French police force is slowly but surely switching to Linux and more generally Open Source software, as are all public schools (although Microsoft did and still does try its usually dirty tricks to prevent that). The entire national assembly (main house of parliament) entirely runs on Linux, from Desktop machines for the députés to servers hosting the live feed/on demand videos. Open Source projects (originating from companies as well as universities and such) regularly obtain grants/funds from official bodies (and in fact, creating an Open Source project is a very favorable point to obtain a lot of those innovation funds). Strong recommendations have been emitted to use only open and standard file formats in all administration, and several projects for laws have been proposed to enforce this, as well as the use of Open Source software in all public administration (not sure any of those were actually passed, though). Skype is also officially forbidden in high-level universities and official research organizations, essentially because it is closed source and thus theoretically prone to potential spying/security issues.

Seems to me that France is *already* embracing Open Source with open arms.

Re:Yeah so they can tax the company to feed the go

[femtobyte]

Yet, strangely, people aren't dying in the streets from starvation and lack of tyres in France. If the "socialist minded French way" means a reasonably functional country, with happy people enjoying a decently high standard of living while working 3-hour days, why the f*** would I take advice from someone who lives in a country where typical workers grind through 40-hour workweeks (if they are lucky not to need 80 at minimum wage) and still have sucky lives?

Re:Yeah so they can tax the company to feed the go

[mvdwege]

In other words, they're too inefficient and can't handle the competition, so they make up a stupid excuse that the right wing loonies at home will eat up.

In case you hadn't noticed, one of Europe's biggest tire makers has obviously no problems with French labour culture, so it is fairly obvious that it is Titan that has a problem, not France.

Re: Short sighted not to regulate

[neutrino38]

French telecommunication regulator is right to try to impose operator burdends on Skype.

1/ More and more people are adopting this service a primary phone service because of SkypeIn and SkypeOut feature. This means that there will be more and more case where user will need to make emergency calls. This lack of emergency call support is a shame. So the post above is ... very shortsighted. One day you may need it yourseff.

2/ VOIP Technology / Skype are more and more displacing regular phones. They play the same role so they need somehow to be regulated in the same manner. There is in France a declarative licence for small telcos, the so called "L33-1". I know a couple of medium sized company operating VoIP service that applied to this without any problem. So it is not like it is unbearable for companies like Microsoft.

3/ I am so amazed by comment like: Skype should cut skype in/out, or avoid physical presence in France (replace by country xxx if you want) to avoid any form of regulation.

Damn ! these regulations are non discriminatory and made for the common good. Its like on the road, if you have no rules, you end up with a dysfunctional traffic. I see in all these comment some kind of selfish, short sighted spirit, 'I want the lowest cost regardless the consequences" that is a worrying trend.

Just because someone sees the work "governement", "regulation" they jump to the roof, say its bad, andy freedom and they try to avoid it without even pondering the consequences or the actual need for regulation. I see this ultimately as some kind of subtul selfishness.

As much as I agree that freedom and freedom to innovate should be preserved and fostered, it should not be a the cost of forgetting the notion of common good.

Re:Why Silicon Valley did not happen in France

[Xest]

"I strongly suspect that in reality France Telecom complained about how Skype is sending calls "for free over our domestic network and costing us money" and this is the real reason for the sudden regulatory interest."

Actually no, there is a global push for this.

It's in large part because of all the spam and scam calls that literally millions of people in the West are plagued by from countries like India and is part of a bigger push in general. Globally there are attempts at the ITU to try and get Caller ID passed between every international call successfully so that people like me can opt to completely and utterly block all calls from places like Bangladesh and India whom I have zero interest in every receiving a call from given that they only contact me about people who have never even lived at my address and whom I've never even ever given my number out to at 2am in the morning.

Currently I just block all caller ID unavailable incoming numbers - if you can't provide caller ID, I don't want to talk to you and thankfully the international calls I do receive are from non-backwards nations where caller ID is properly passed across. This solves the problem fine for me and I suspect always will because countries like India have too much of a vested interest in hiding incoming numbers as they've tried to boost their economy based on crap call centres, rather than doing real actual useful things like China, such as manufacturing.

But for others, they may receive calls via VOIP services such as Skype and so forth, they may have some currently "unavailable" numbers they do want to talk to. This is why countries internationally and VOIP providers are being targeted because they too are major sources of these Indian illegal spam and scam operations (illegal because in many of the countries they call such as the UK they legally have to have a valid caller ID number displayed if phoning on behalf of a company). People can't do caller ID whitelisting/blacklisting unless the likes of Skype start making that possible. Again though, like India, I suspect Skype makes a lot of money from these spam/scam operations which is why they will desperately try to fight this sort of thing.

There is a good valid reason for all this and it's not simply nationalism or any such thing.

Re:Why Silicon Valley did not happen in France

[dkf]

Skype is also officially forbidden in high-level universities and official research organizations, essentially because it is closed source and thus theoretically prone to potential spying/security issues.

Actually, it's because those organizations tend to have extremely restrictive firewalls and Skype doesn't sit nicely with them. This makes collaborating with people in those organizations on joint research projects rather awkward (though the usual way of dealing with it is to ignore the French, the same as the English have done for centuries).