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France Demands Skype Register As a Telco
jfruh writes "Skype made a name for itself by largely bypassing the infrastucture — and the costs, and the regulations — of the legacy telecommunications industry. But now the French telecom regulator wants to change that, at least in France. At issue is not the service's VoIP offering, but rather the Skype Out service that allows users to dial phones on traditional networks. Regulators say that this service necessitates that Skype face the same regulations as other telecoms."
While France has many many funny laws and ideas, many of which I think are bogus. But on this one IMO they are right. If Skype connected directly at the user to a telephone then IMO it would be a different picture. However, SKYPE acts on behalf of the user and hence they are doing the same thing as a telco, albeit not a completely telco.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Especially since Skype out is more expensive than my current voip provider, they have the money for it and interoperate with the POTS.
Tomorrow is another day...
And they are correct. You tie into the Telco, you need to play by the regulations for Telco.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Regulations designed to protect the incumbent status quo, rather than serving the needs of real users, is the kind of thing that has kept France out of the picture for innovation. France must import their innovation.
If Skype has VOIP-to-POTS gateways physically located in France, they need to follow France's legacy telecom rules. If the gateways are located elsewhere (e.g. in another EU country), France shouldn't have any standing to impose their regulations on them.
MS not offering anymore "Skype Out" in France... Who's going to lose? Well, it's the worst kind of solution, in which everybody loses something and nobody wins (not even the French VoIP providers: the greatest majority of Skype-out calls happens just because the called is not online and the caller would like her/him to join a Skype-to-Skype session. A SMS - direct or via Twitter - would achieve pretty much the same thing).
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
OK, they brought us the Minitel. Er, thanks...
I've been here for more than 20 years, and have really enjoyed being financially fucked in the ass by the France Telecom monopoly, swiftly followed by the FT/SFR duopoly, and then Bouygues came along and, tada!, we had the same old...overpriced, underserviced.
Fortunately, after years off battling the well-captured 'regulators', Free has finally got things moving somewhat in the right direction.
My point? Skype buys its out calling service from these fine, regulated companies. It is not a telco in the traditional sense, so leave it alone.
Btw, not a Skype/MS shill, although I freely admit i have found it incredibly useful over the years, and it has saved me and my family a ton of money. Right now moving to Jitsi...it's getting there. (Waiting for Android and iOs clients, please)
"France taxes the crap out of its citizens so we should have seen this coming."
which has nothing to do with this issue.
But hay, just jump on your ignorant bandwagon and toot the crazy horn.
France's person income tax is 0% to 75%..not just 75%. and with Bouclier Fiscal I don't think very many people, if any, pay 75% since it needs to be 1.2million pr more with 2 adults. Not only to the France have a different word for everything, they also have a different tax system.
Perspective:
If you were a family of 2 adults and 3 children making 100,000 Euros you tax rate would be 14%
France taxes, in the real world, are on par, and sometime less then the US taxes..and they have more services.
And of cours,e saying ;'high taxes' is pretty meaningless.
What are the service you get? whats the VALUE overall
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
That your answer to the RIAA and ASCAP's actions too? I mean, yeah I can see why it's "unreasonable" to allow other competitive business models have a chance to succeed. Hooray for crony capitalism and the autocracy of the ancien regime. Jackass.
The obvious course of action for Skype is, if the French government considers imposing regulations on Skype, to deny service to France. The French government is not powerful enough to put Skype in a disadvantageous position; all Skype has to do is pack up its bags and leave, and then France will be denied the revenue it was after and will also have to deal with a bunch of angry constituents.
Music therapy.
You both need it to take care of your issue and to learn about gov't regulations introduced now to stop competition and keep prices up, prevent (lower income) people from making income in that field.
But ifÂSB 1437Âpasses, anyone who wants to become a music therapist will face some onerous barriers: an applicant would need a bachelorâ(TM)s degree in music therapy from a program approved by the American Music Therapy Association (AMTA), at least 1,200 hours of clinical training, and 900 hours of internship experience. Practicing or calling oneself a music therapist without a government permission slip would be criminalized, with violators facing up to aÂ$500 fine and/or 30 days imprisonment.
That's what gov't regulations are all about, that and taking ppl for their money. Providing an innovating service ppl like? Ha, we are gov't, it would really be sad if you didn't pay up and something bad happened to your business.
You can't handle the truth.
France can always prevent call termination on France's POTs numbers.
Because "French taxes are high" is oft-repeated, irritating, mostly-wrong, truthiness.
Is the French taxation regime inefficient? yes, but mostly because a lot of the redistribution it is meant to produce is in the form of market-distorting goods and services instead of cash. Also, capital gains are, like everywhere else, insufficiently taxed.
But the level of taxation is pretty much the European average. Higher than the US? Yes. Better value for money? Probably.
... Says the guy writing behind the 'Anonymous Coward' placeholder name.
France doesn'r relly have high taxes.
I am defensive for several reasons:
1) the word taxes has become a knee jerk scare word. Being further seperated form services. Meaning peopel talk about cutting taxes, and everyone loves it. A politician saying that the result is loosing servcies, and everyone villifys them.
2) IT's about value.
3) France is the US's first and oldest ally. The US would not exist without France. The general anti-france meme in the US is short sight, unfair, and based in complete ignorance.
Then when people say ignorant shit like "France taxes the crap out of its citizens so we should have seen this coming."
it just general irritates me. It is used to scare people. "You don't want to be like France, there healthcare means that are taxed really high!"
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Regulations designed to protect the incumbent status quo, rather than serving the needs of real users, is the kind of thing that has kept USA out of the picture for telecommunications innovation. USA must import their telecommunications innovation.
What is the purpose of regulating telcos, and is that purpose still relevant to the proper operation of telcos and in providing fair and equal services to the citizens?
At least in the USA (which I am the most familiar), the purpose of regulating telcos is primarily twofold
1. To provide "tariff-like" access and pricing (both for customers and inter-teleco, intended to promote competition)
2. To provide for the USF (universal service fund).
Of course, there are some other requirements: emergency 911, wiretap, etc...
At least in the US, Skype is not subject to these rules. although it is widely believed that skype can be "wiretap"-ed (well, not literally). Other than taxes, there's not much to US regulation.
As to why France is pushing this, well, it's not a recent thing, they've been saying Skype has been operating illegally in France since 2007, and that is the pace of these sorts of things. It probably doesn't hurt that now MS owns Skype and thus the pockets are deeper.
You nailed it; non-productive people running a racket against productive people. Like the Mafia, but you can't legally shoot them in self-defense. Should we apply RICO to government? roman_mir, I've seen your posts, and I think they are pretty insightful, but I seriously cannot comprehend how you have the energy to deal with the legion that comes down on you every time. Right or wrong, I don't care - I just don't know how/why you continue.
The two claimed purposes are emergency calls and wire tapping. The first is quite difficult because unlike landlines or cell towers, it's genuinely not possible to know with certainty where the caller is, and so how do you route the emergency call to the 'nearest' location?
In the U.S. the FCC finally agreed that sending customer provided location info to the call center was adequate but prior to that, the incumbents did become more interested in public safety than they had ever been before or since. I don't know the exact situation in France.
As for the second, it's a bit difficult to do that when communications can happen peer to peer and Skype doesn't own or control the routers in between. Just exactly what is Skype supposed to do about that?
This is pretty much how it went down all over western Europe (Italy, I'm lookin' at you) when cell phones did an end-run against heavily regulated landlines. Sure, you could wait 6 months for phone service ... or you can have this!
Now it's euros, not time, but the song's more-or-less the same.
Tax grab, plain and simple.
The geese left in disgust.
It's France: the geese didn't leave they were eaten.
I won't comment on value, but rather just inject some harder numbers into this debate:
OECD National Accounts at a Glance, 2012
http://knoema.com/OECDNA2012
France taxes at a rate of (roughly) 51% of GDP and spends at 56%
The USA taxes at 32% and spends at 42% (2010 accounts)
UK: taxes at 40% and spends at 49%
Germany: taxes at 44% and spends at 45%
Korea: taxes at 31% and spends at 30%
France is something of a world-leader when it comes to both taxing and spending, especially least among developed nations. The USA is a big world-leader when it comes to government living outside its means.
Yet, strangely, people aren't dying in the streets from starvation and lack of tyres in France. If the "socialist minded French way" means a reasonably functional country, with happy people enjoying a decently high standard of living while working 3-hour days, why the f*** would I take advice from someone who lives in a country where typical workers grind through 40-hour workweeks (if they are lucky not to need 80 at minimum wage) and still have sucky lives?
Skype would have indeed to pay some taxes depending on their turnover, but that's not gonna change the face of the world (it's capped at 80'000€).
IMHO the real deal is that telco have legal obligations, among other things related to police investigation.
The police is supposed to be able to identify the owner of a particular number, get the bills and a log of the calls.
Skype can provide its customers with a french phone number so it should comply with that regulation.
I'm no expert on the ins and outs of IP assignment, but with dynamic assignment of IPs, it seems to me that even giving a billing address is extremely problematic. In Australia, the IP address could be owned by Telstra, dynamically assigned to your iphone, would could be anywhere in the country. Perhaps days and weeks after the fact you could look at logs and find out some better information, but I would have thought that in real time, IP address tells you precisely zero.
Right, so Microsoft should embargo France.....wait ... that would be a Bad Thing? Perhaps they should carpet bomb Paris with free Windows 8 DVD's ... that would teach the French government to toy with Microsoft and it's minions....
In other words, they're too inefficient and can't handle the competition, so they make up a stupid excuse that the right wing loonies at home will eat up.
In case you hadn't noticed, one of Europe's biggest tire makers has obviously no problems with French labour culture, so it is fairly obvious that it is Titan that has a problem, not France.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Yep. Each time the so called libertarians come out with their spiel, I am reminded of the quote "In a democracy your vote counts, in feudalism your count votes."
Essentially they want the world to go back to an era when the rich and endowed had all the power and the poor could go get fucked.
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
French telecommunication regulator is right to try to impose operator burdends on Skype.
1/ More and more people are adopting this service a primary phone service because of SkypeIn and SkypeOut feature. This means that there will be more and more case where user will need to make emergency calls. This lack of emergency call support is a shame. So the post above is ... very shortsighted. One day you may need it yourseff.
2/ VOIP Technology / Skype are more and more displacing regular phones. They play the same role so they need somehow to be regulated in the same manner. There is in France a declarative licence for small telcos, the so called "L33-1". I know a couple of medium sized company operating VoIP service that applied to this without any problem. So it is not like it is unbearable for companies like Microsoft.
3/ I am so amazed by comment like: Skype should cut skype in/out, or avoid physical presence in France (replace by country xxx if you want) to avoid any form of regulation.
Damn ! these regulations are non discriminatory and made for the common good. Its like on the road, if you have no rules, you end up with a dysfunctional traffic. I see in all these comment some kind of selfish, short sighted spirit, 'I want the lowest cost regardless the consequences" that is a worrying trend.
Just because someone sees the work "governement", "regulation" they jump to the roof, say its bad, andy freedom and they try to avoid it without even pondering the consequences or the actual need for regulation. I see this ultimately as some kind of subtul selfishness.
As much as I agree that freedom and freedom to innovate should be preserved and fostered, it should not be a the cost of forgetting the notion of common good.
You are all completely missing the argument.
The France government is desperate for cash, and will milk any cow out there.
It's not about regulations, fair-use, bla bla.
They need money, and they have people working on it. Simple as that.
We are all discussing an argument that doesn't exist. It's always about the money. Especially with the governments nowadays.
Go to impots.gouv.fr select "particuliers" then "Calculez votre impôt sur le revenu pour 2013" then "Simulateur de l'impôt 2013 sur les revenus de 2012"
For a single person earning 100k EUR in 2012:
RESULTAT
Nombre de personnes à charge 0
Nombre de parts 1
Revenu brut global ou déficit 90000
Revenu net imposable ou déficit à reporter 90000
Droits simples 23542
Impôt avant imputations 23542
Prime pour l'emploi 0
IMPôT SUR LE REVENU NET 23542
TAUX MOYEN D'IMPOSITION 26.16
Pour information
Taux marginal d'imposition (revenus soumis au barème) 41
So you pay 23542 EUR of your 100000 EUR earnings.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Obviously I screwed the URL, it's http://impots.gouv.fr/
Watch this Heartland Institute video
France Register As a Country.
Seriously, Russian government abandoned a similar idea after this video - "Hitler and Skype" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxhs8jMnC7w , which was watched at Youtube millions of times.
Hitler speaks in Russian, which just made sound as German language. The funny part is that Hitler uses a lot of F-words regarding proposed ban on Skype, but the caption translates it into correct cultured Russian language.
Tax the rich at 75%
This is my first TEST if slashdotters understand math!
Your harvest is four apples, you give me three, keep one.
This skype crap is the same thing, they NEED TO STEAL MORE MONEY to keep up the MALI adventures. (Gonna steal that 50B gold too muthafukas)
This has nothing to do with regulating power and frequency, or communications. It has everything to do with politicians pretending exponents don't exist on their Debt to GDP.
Exactly. The progression of society isn't to remain socialist...at some point the French government will not have enough money to redistribute due to either the rich leaving (as they are) or the middle class realizing they can stop working and just collect free stuff. This results in the French government taking all the earnings of everyone and spreading that around (e.g. communism). After a few decades of this and seeing the politicians living in mansions the people will rise up and you'll go back to feudalism. This has been seen at numerous points throughout history but you don't see it. It's happening in America (we're at the phase where we lean from capitalism to socialism).
To repeat AC and roman_mir above and verifying on other web sites, it does appear France has some of the highest tax rates in Europe on average.
That point (e.g. French tax rate is high) was added to my OP to show that the modus operandi of the French government is to take from the rich and give to the poor so this (e.g. taking from Skype) would not be a stretch and would fall right in line with their way of thinking.
...and France would be speaking German if not for the US...playing these games is idiotic. Both countries have done great things and both countries have done stupid things. I'm disputing the argument that Skype should be taxed and went on to say they should have seen it coming because France tax rates are very high and that's their way of thinking. Not saying it's bad (I don't like it but the French people do and it doesn't affect me so why should I care) but it should have been predicted and Skype should threated to leave.
As much as I agree that freedom and freedom to innovate should be preserved and fostered, it should not be a the cost of forgetting the notion of common good.
As a person paying $1.50/month for 911 service through my VOIP provider, I guess my main hangup is personal responsibility. I think it's great when the government steps in to correct chaos for the common good: regulate telephone poles and utilities, roads, the airwaves and other common property. I'm not as into "do this, it's for your own good". If some jackass wants to save a few pennies by skimping on 911 service, let 'em. The only reason I will acquiesce and admit that it's probably a good idea is that jackasses have children. Hell, my kid might even be playing at the jackass's house and might need help.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
As I've said before...when a country tries to extort money from a company that company should threaten to cease operations within that country so call their bluff...if they are not bluffing then the company just ceases to operate.
So national elected governments should cow to profit driven corporations. Fucking brilliant plan.
France's income tax is indeed usually lower than in the US, but that's not the whole picture.
You also have to look at sales tax (VAT), which is much higher in France at 19.6% vs around 7-8% in most US states.
Then there is the taxe d'habitation, which simply doesn't exist in the U.S. for renters.
All in all, you wind up paying more in France. The value, however, is much better in France, given all the various services and aid which are provided.
No, but there should be consequences, even if they're just minor like a services company leaving.
There's always someone with this silly logic on Slashdot! The world doesn't revolve around the company in question, it's the other way around!
Each time Microsoft or Google have been involved in some sort of legal issue in Europe - some guy like you pops up to tell them to "just" leave Europe. The problem is that Europe represents more than 50% of the profits for companies like Microsoft! Who loses then? That would be Skype, because there will always be the competition.
I imagine Skype does even better in Europe than in the US, due to the fact that there are more people in general (700 million) - and because people call across national borders and not state lines. Never mind the millions of immigrants from Africa to Asia.
Talking with people from there, I'm led to believe Canada's healthcare is not much better than America's. I rather like New Zealand's, until our government sells out our healthcare system to the USA in the TPPA.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".