Slashdot Mirror


US Government May Not Be Able To Fix Cell Phone Unlocking Problem

An anonymous reader writes "We recently discussed what appeared to be a positive response from the Obama administration on the legality of cell phone unlocking. Unfortunately, the Obama administration may not be able to do anything about it. It has already signed away our rights under a trade agreement with South Korea. Lawyer Jonathan Band, who works for the Association of Research Libraries, wrote, 'The White House position, however, may be inconsistent with the U.S. proposal in the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP) and existing obligations in the Korea-U.S. Free Trade Agreement (KORUS) and other free trade agreements to which the United States is a party. This demonstrates the danger of including in international agreements rigid provisions that do not accommodate technological development.'You can read more about this issue in a short eight page legal primer by Jonathan Band (PDF). An interesting, related note that the U.S.-KOREA FTA is possibly inconsistent with our domestic patent/drug law in the Hatch-Waxman Act as well. The trade agreement requires us to grant injunctions until the patent is invalidated as opposed to thirty months under current domestic law."

142 of 203 comments (clear)

  1. IANAL by vikingpower · · Score: 2

    There. All is said.

    --
    Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
    1. Re:IANAL by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No need to be AL. The TPP is being forced down many countries throats despite many anti-democratic problems by, you guessed it, US special interest groups, their lobby mouthpieces and owned politicians. The US elite feigned "positive response" to our concern over cell phone unlocking only due to the enormous amount of people who cried out - to many to just ignore this time round. Now they are using the TPP stick that they crafted to beat our demand for democratic review of the law down, and put the masses back in our place. Oh, but sure they had no choice... yeah, right.

    2. Re:IANAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'd commented earlier that the executive branch had seemed to cave in to the people too quickly on this. Now we know why. They already knew this would be the result.

      It's plain how this needs to be responded to; masses of people unlocking their phones, whether it really benefits them at the moment or not, as a form of passive aggressive protest.

    3. Re:IANAL by phorm · · Score: 1

      Except IIRC you *can* unlock your phone, it's just that nobody can legally provide the service/tools to do so (so you can't, unless somebody else is breaking the law).

      So on your part there's not really much you can do unless you're willing to risk penalty for unlocking somebody else's device.

    4. Re:IANAL by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      I see the rise in very expensive coffee, where cell phones are unlocked while you wait, for free.

    5. Re:IANAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It may come as a surprise for you, but you are not the only one with a functioning brain on the planet, which is why this sort of thing is illegal. It's the same reason you can't buy an OEM Windows disc standalone, so when they are resold, they are sold with an IDE cable or something as a 'builder bundle', and it is illegal to sell such a bundle for more than the price of the cable, even though everyone involved knows you're really buying the disc.

    6. Re:IANAL by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      "The TPP is being forced down many countries throats..."

      BUT... the TPP is not "an agreement" yet, if it ever will be. It is only a proposal (one which the United States actually refused to follow itself, after a bunch of public outcry). So, since it is not yet an "agreement" or treaty, it does not actually block the unlocking of cell phones.

    7. Re:IANAL by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I should add that even if it were a treaty, it is pretty hypocritical of the government to use that as an excuse, since drone killings violate treaties all over the place.

    8. Re:IANAL by phorm · · Score: 1

      It is illegal to sell such a bundle for more than the price of the cable

      What law makes this illegal? I ask because I've seen this done before, though in Canada

    9. Re:IANAL by slick7 · · Score: 1

      There. All is said.

      But they sure know how to fix their Vatican bank accounts, retirement accounts, and their non-Obamacare health accounts. All these CONgressMEN seem to be no accounts. Next election, vote for Bozo the clown, someone qualified to do the job.

      --
      The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
    10. Re:IANAL by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      I call it value based pricing. Most high end restaurants charge for a lot more than the cost of the food and labor.

    11. Re:IANAL by davester666 · · Score: 1

      It's business. They are citizens. They tell us what to do, not the other way around.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  2. So what happened? by Jack+Malmostoso · · Score: 1

    The US Government has been out-lobbied by Korean lobbyists? Or is Samsung's plan much bigger than Apple thought?

    1. Re:So what happened? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Treaties occupy a special place between the Constitution and the rest of United States law. This is why there's a big deal about the Senate confirming them.

    2. Re:So what happened? by Xest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What happened is the US government found a good excuse for saying one thing and doing another to make it appear like it was on your side without that actually being so.

      Welcome to politics.

  3. I do not see a problem by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Interesting

    KORUS does allow for administrative procedures like the DMCA's rule-making to adopt temporary exemptions, but not permanent ones. The challenge before Congress is to devise a permanent exception for cell phone unlocking that does not breach the obligations under KORUS and other similar free trade agreements

    The US constitution allows temporary copyrights; Congress has managed to ignore the spirit of the constitution by extending copyright terms 20 years every 20 years. How about we just do the same with DMCA exemptions?

    --
    Palm trees and 8
    1. Re:I do not see a problem by characterZer0 · · Score: 2

      Or why not just make a temporary exemption that only lasts until unix time overflows 64 bits?

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    2. Re:I do not see a problem by rvw · · Score: 1

      Or why not just make a temporary exemption that only lasts until unix time overflows 64 bits?

      Because those DMCA servers don't run on Unix time you stupid! ;-)

    3. Re:I do not see a problem by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      The US constitution allows temporary copyrights; Congress has managed to ignore the spirit of the constitution by extending copyright terms 20 years every 20 years. How about we just do the same with DMCA exemptions?

      Technically it is still temporary. You just disagree on how long is temporary. Sort of like those "temporary" portable buildings at schools and the "temporary" Bush tax cuts, you never know how temporary it actually will be.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    4. Re:I do not see a problem by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What's the problem? Since with the next update of the phone the unlock is removed as well, it's just temporary anyway.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:I do not see a problem by idontgno · · Score: 1

      Of course it's temporary. Everything in the universe is. If nothing else, the impending heat death of the universe puts a hard cap on copyright duration of no more than 10^1000 years.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    6. Re:I do not see a problem by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 2

      Because congress is full of 2-bit politicians.

  4. IP legislation is a monster by mangu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It seems that these days IP legislation tries to swallow everything. Nothing is safe from IP laws.

    It's time to reverse that trend, most of the DMCA should be considered unconstitutional anyhow. If someone sold me a device, why can't I tear it apart to see how it was built?

    Patents and copyrights exist for making sure no one needs to keep trade secrets. The intent of those laws is to let people learn about the technical details behind the technology.

    Having laws that restricts the liberty of learning goes against every principle of a civilized society.

    1. Re:IP legislation is a monster by Evtim · · Score: 1

      Who says we ever lived in one?

    2. Re:IP legislation is a monster by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.
      -- Oscar Wilde

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:IP legislation is a monster by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

      Patents and copyrights exist for making sure no one needs to keep trade secrets. The intent of those laws is to let people learn about the technical details behind the technology.

      Not quite. Patents exist in part to encourage people to share the details behind their inventions, at least in theory. They grant a monopoly in exchange for that. People would share the details anyway where it's self-evident, so it's like we're giving a free monopoly--except you still encourage innovation by paying for development costs. The problem is the monopoly can be disproportionate to the investment and can retard progress and the development of knowledge. In any event, though patents are fundamentally at odds with trade secrets--where people keep secrets as long as they can, there is no limited life on the monopoly, and anyone who figures it out can do it--patents definitely don't exist to make sure that no one needs to keep trade secrets. It's just two very different choices, with different benefits and consequences to the innovator and the public.

      Copyrights exist to limit the ability of duplicate printing presses (e.g. the pirate bay) to run off works without compensating the original author.

      The problem is that the near-absolute control copyrights and patents give comes at a monopolistic cost, which sometimes costs more than it benefits society, mostly due to a collective action problem. (We might individually pay $2 for a hit song, but collectively we would pay much less and the remuneration for it would be more in accord with the Lochean earned income theory of labor, i.e. more fair.)

      Having laws that restricts the liberty of learning goes against every principle of a civilized society.

      I mostly agree, but it depends on the meaning of civilization. Most people are happy lying, keeping others in ignorance, and restricting knowledge. They tend to rationalize it, and they certainly don't think of it that way.

      I disagree with regard to a few specialized issues--I don't mind putting restrictions on certain data related to weapon construction, for example.

  5. The American Way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Nobody is ever responsible for anything and eveyone's hands are always tied, that's the American way.

  6. other countries have laws that phones must be unlo by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    other countries have laws that phones must be unlocked or the carriers must give out the unlock code.

    We need to end carrier only phones and phones with all the carrier software forced on you that you have to hack your own phone to remove it you should have the choice of how much of the software that you want. Visual voice mail (good), a app that let's you see how many mins / data / txt of your plan that you used and uses there meter (good) other apps not so much.

  7. Sold out by corrupt politicians. by fredrated · · Score: 4, Funny

    Who would have guessed?

    1. Re:Sold out by corrupt politicians. by ChemGeek4501 · · Score: 1

      I would not go has far as to say "corrupt" in this case. Ignorant of the unintended consequences of the law, perhaps. But I don't see this (yet) as a example of abject corruption. More time/data needed for the corrpution charge.

    2. Re:Sold out by corrupt politicians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If lobbyists were involved, it's corruption. Lobbyists have no legitimate function and are just vectors of corruption.

    3. Re:Sold out by corrupt politicians. by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      It's not unintended consequences if the consequences are intended. In this case, they certainly were.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  8. Why not just ignore people who break the law? by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's a lot of laws on the books that are never enforced. There's roads where everybody drives 15 miles per hour over the speed limit and nobody ever gets a ticket because everybody knows that it's perfectly safe and that the limit is just set too slow. There was recently a law passed in Florida where all non-US citizens had to have an international driver's license to drive in the state. They forgot about all the Canadians who go there every winter. Once they realized the problem, they told all the cops to just ignore the law. This is just without even mentioning the completely ridiculous laws that are still on the books from hundreds of years ago. Just because a law is on the books, doesn't mean they have to enforce it. If there's no mandatory minimum punishments required as part of the trade agreements, judges could just let people off with a very small fine, and cops would learn that it wasn't worth their time to charge anybody for breaking the law.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    1. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by Aboroth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is a perfectly pragmatic viewpoint, and I would take it as well, if the world were sane. Actually, it doesn't only take stupid or crazy people to mess up a system like you describe, it just takes well-meaning people with messed up priorities.

      There are already more laws than anybody could ever know about. We are already at the point where it is easy to be breaking multiple laws without knowing it. The police, even good police, like having this situation because it lets them arrest anyone they want at any time, if they can just figure out one of the many laws they are breaking, even if it is a stupid one. Of course they like this situation because it makes their jobs easier, and they think that their "gut feelings" are 100% correct 100% of the time.

      Do you really want to live in that kind of world? Well, whatever your answer, you already do. But do you want to make it worse?

    2. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your naivete shows.

      Silly traffic laws are enforced when it suits the police to enforce the laws. Haven't you watched "Law and Order" where laws are stretched to fit people ADA Jack McCoy wants to persecute? Police do this also and use the silliest of laws to facilitate their harassment.. Every regulatory entity does this. To think that they don't is quite pollyana-ish.

    3. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by richlv · · Score: 2

      isn't that one of the basic rules of a police state ? everybody is always guilty. say something wrong, and you get prosecuted.

      any incorrect or unfair law should be removed or fixed as soon as possible.

      --
      Rich
    4. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by geoffrobinson · · Score: 3, Informative
      --
      Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    5. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by realsilly · · Score: 3, Informative

      Here is the link to the article or law that CastrTroy noted.

      http://news.tripwheels.com/2013/02/11/international-driving-permit-required-for-florida/

      --
      Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
    6. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by houghi · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, except for the small fine judges could give.
      What they should do is completely ignore it. Not even let it get to the judge.

      In Belgium I have seen letters (a few years ago) from the court not to bother them with these minimal claims and if they did, they would hold them responsible for obstruction of the law, because it would take precious time away from serious cases.
      However, they wrote, they would be willing to help if it was about people who made money from it.
      This was around the year 2000 and the letter was to the Belgian MAFIAA.

      They have a similar thing with soft drugs. If it is for personal usage, they will ignore it. They could still charge you, but they don't. That way they did not offended the French who did not want to see it being made legal.

      So no fines whatsoever and make it clear to the cops, so they don't stop you and harass you about things just because they can. In Belgium they could get reprimanded and ivestigated by Comite P.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    7. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

      so that international license thing was a new law? THAT's why there was such a fuss.. well I'm pretty sure for the record they recently took care of that.

      --
      Just another second banana
    8. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 2

      Florida's international drivers license requirement is an unenforceable law. Florida can't legally make it a requirement because it violates the Genova Convention on Road Traffic. While the law is unenforceable, it is still on the books and can cause grief for international travelers who may want to get a rental car within the state of Florida.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    9. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by ryzvonusef · · Score: 1

      You can also visit their website for some interesting examples:

      http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx

      --
      I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
    10. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by himurabattousai · · Score: 1

      The United States is not a contracting party of the Geneva (not Genova) Convention on Road Traffic. Therefore, yes, they can pass and enforce that law. That doesn't make it a good law, mind you, but since we aren't a part of that treaty, its terms mean diddly-squat to us.

      --
      "osake no hou ga, biiru yori ii" to omotteiru.
    11. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      ...he put lower emphasis on enforcing immigration laws before the election to get more votes
      FTFY

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    12. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by chakan2 · · Score: 1

      Which is fine...until our corporate overlords want to make an example. The people jail breaking phones is a fringe group right now, but if it becomes common place and easy (say like, napster), there will be extreme examples of people being punished.

      Thus, ignoring them is a solution, but it’s a skeleton in the closet to be pulled out when cost effective for the big tel-cos.

    13. Re:Why not just ignore people who break the law? by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Strange. The linked page shows that the United States ratified it in 1950. So yes, it is a party to the treaty.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  9. It's not that difficult by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Congress can pass the law; they have that power, and no mere treaty can take it away.

    What happens, if Congress passes a law that is in conflict with the treaty is that the most recent of them is in effect in the US.

    As for our international obligations, we have a few choices: We can withdraw from the treaty. We can seek to renegotiate the relevant part of the treaty. Or we can ignore the conflict. If we ignore it, there may be some enforcement mechanism intended to encourage us to do something, but depending on what it is, we may be able to ignore that too. After all, the US is in violation of the Berne Convention and we've ignored that successfully for over a decade now.

    --
    -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    1. Re:It's not that difficult by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Congress can pass the law; they have that power, and no mere treaty can take it away.

      The problem is, if congress ratifies a treaty, it becomes the law of the land. You want them to pass a new law which conflicts with it? No, they'd either ignore or renegotiate the treaty. More likely though, they will simply observe it. They don't REALLY want to give us unlocking.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:It's not that difficult by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is not clear to me from the article if the treaty specifies the list of exceptions to "circumvention prohibition" as the only exceptions allowable (which happen to be the same as the list in the DMCA) or if it merely specifies the list given in the DMCA (although my reading of the article causes me to believe it is the former). If by some chance the treaty is written in the latter manner, then it is simply a matter of Congress amending the DMCA.
      Actually, under U.S. law, the KORUS free trade agreement is not actually a treaty. It is instead a "congressional-executive agreement". That is, rather than being signed by the President and ratified by a two-thirds majority of the Senate it was passed by simple majorities of both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Which means that under U.S. law it is no more binding than any other law. Congress may pass a law changing it at any time (as far as U.S. law is concerned).
      I will restate this. The KORUS free trade agreement is not a ratified treaty, which would be negotiated by the President and ratified by a two-thirds majority of the Senate. It is no more "the law of the land" than any other law passed by Congress and, under U.S. law, may be amended by Congress at any time (subject to the same provisions as any other law). If Congress passes a law modifying the agreement (which is what this is, it is not actually a treaty), that modification supersedes the previous law (agreement). If South Korea was unaware of this, they should pay closer attention to U.S. law before signing an agreement with the U.S.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    3. Re:It's not that difficult by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      No treaties are binding on Congress such that later-passed legislation doesn't supersede them. The most a treaty can manage is to stand at the same level as federal law, below the level of the Constitution.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    4. Re:It's not that difficult by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The repeat was not for you. I figured that you would understand what I had posted in the context of what you had posted. However, I have frequently had people other than the poster I replied to take issue with something I have posted because they have ignored the context created by the post I replied to. I attempted to preempt such things by restating my point in a way less reliant on the context of your post.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    5. Re:It's not that difficult by jbengt · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but the only way for Congress to override a treaty is to rescind that treaty, and that wouldn't take place without the cooperation of the executive branch and the lobbyists. Treaties even trump the US constitution.

    6. Re:It's not that difficult by jbengt · · Score: 1

      No treaties are binding on Congress such that later-passed legislation doesn't supersede them. The most a treaty can manage is to stand at the same level as federal law, below the level of the Constitution.

      That is just wrong, treaties supercede the Constitution.
      However, Attila Dimedici noted that the KORUS free trade agreement is not really a treaty, so Congress may be able to override it easily, if they want.

    7. Re:It's not that difficult by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Please read up on the Eli Lilly NAFTA tribunal dispute with Canada. FTA's provide for direct action by companies against countries. We have the Investor State disputes which are worth billions of dollars. Countries lose most of the disputes and this is becoming a serious problem for most FTA's. These provisions are not like the other treaties. They have sharp teeth and they bite. Corporations are happy to arbitrate before a three judge arbitration pannel. Most arbitration judges are arbitrators who have been fed and brought up in arbitration proceedings where the biggest players are corporations. If you have worked all your life for corporations and you are brought in to decide a case between a Country and a corporation where do your loyalties lie? It's a specious argument that the congress can do what it wants on a treaty.

      On a second and serious note even with inter country arbitration US has been on the losing side many many times at WTO. We don't even have a corporation on the other end in WTO arbitration!
      http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/assets/pdfs/eli-01.pdf

      On a third related note. US customers are going to pay more for all the protectionist IP measures we are legislating/ dealing with under treaty law. More than half of the IP in the world is generated by foreign corporations and foreign nationals. 50% of patents in America are foreign owned and 80% of copyrights in America are foreign owned. It's a study by the information justice project. There are contributors from Columbia university and American University in this information justice project.

      A recent study by infojustice on IP ownership and nationality concludes: "IP policies adopted by [the US] Congress and the [US] Executive Branch may benefit foreign corporations at the expense of US consumers." and " There is absolutely nothing sinister about foreign ownership of firms in IP intensive industries, including foreign ownership of companies originally established in the US. This is to be expected in a globalised economy with multinational corporations and complex cross-border supply chains." and "In such a globalised economy, US policymakers should no longer assume without reflection that the beneficiaries of protectionist IP policies are US firms and, by extension, US workers and shareholders."

      http://infojustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/foreignownrep.pdf

      On a fourth but related note. Read why the FTA's are not treaties under the US constitution but are binding under international law.
      http://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/research/34/

    8. Re:It's not that difficult by operagost · · Score: 1

      No they don't. If the judicial branch invalidates something in a treaty because of constitutional concerns, it's dead.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    9. Re:It's not that difficult by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      According to Thomas Jefferson that is not the case, "...stipulations by treaty are forever irrevocable but by joint consent." That is, agreements such as the KORUS free trade agreement may be dropped by either party whenever they become inconvenient, but an actual ratified treaty may only be changed by mutual agreement between the two countries.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    10. Re:It's not that difficult by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2

      No, treaties are inferior to the federal constitution. The constitution says so, in Article VI. Treaties are superior to state constitutions, however. (Also according to Art. VI)

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    11. Re:It's not that difficult by Skapare · · Score: 1

      Just pass a new law that undoes some or all of a previously passed law. There are lots of people in Congress trying to undo Obamacare. Do it that way.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    12. Re:It's not that difficult by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      No, they don't. They trump state laws and state constitutions, but there is no power for the adoption of a treaty that is in conflict with the Constitution.

    13. Re:It's not that difficult by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Yes, and those are extremists, they're not going to succeed as Obamacare is incredibly popular and going to get even more so when the last provisions go into effect.

      It's mostly the far right that decries anything that might help the working classes that's opposed to it.

    14. Re:It's not that difficult by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      The Supreme Court said:

      A treaty is primarily a contract between two or more independent nations, and is so regarded by writers on public law. For the infraction of its provisions, a remedy must be sought by the injured party through reclamations upon the other. When the stipulations are not self-executing, they can only be enforced pursuant to legislation to carry them into effect, and such legislation is as much subject to modification and repeal by Congress as legislation upon any other subject. If the treaty contains stipulations which are self-executing -- that is, require no legislation to make them operative -- to that extent they have the force and effect of a legislative enactment. Congress may modify such provisions so far as they bind the United States, or supersede them altogether. By the Constitution, a treaty is placed on the same footing, and made of like obligation, with an act of legislation. Both are declared by that instrument to be the supreme law of the land, and no superior efficacy is given to either over the other. When the two relate to the same subject, the courts will always endeavor to construe them so as to give effect to both, if that can be done without violating the language of either; but if the two are inconsistent, the one last in date will control the other, provided always the stipulation of the treaty on the subject is self-executing. If the country with which the treaty is made is dissatisfied with the action of the legislative department, it may present its complaint to the executive head of the government and take such other measures as it may deem essential for the protection of its interests. The courts can afford no redress. Whether the complaining nation has just cause of complaint or our country was justified in its legislation are not matters for judicial cognizance.

      Whitney v. Robertson, 124 US 190, 194 (1888).

      It's nothing to do with conservative or liberal courts; the Supremacy Clause is very clearly written, and the last in time rule is well established.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    15. Re:It's not that difficult by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Obamacare popularity is under 50% and dropping. I'd hardy call that "incredibly popular", except that it stretches credibility that anyone supports it. Moreover, it is a hideous violation of rights and an act of tyranny.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    16. Re:It's not that difficult by Skapare · · Score: 1

      I'm not commenting about Obamacare (yet). Just saying, use the mechanism they are trying to use ... repeal legislation.

      But since you seem to want comment ... I'm opposed to Obamacare because I want true, genuine, real socialized medicine ... at least like what Sweden has. There, I said it. Now back to unlocking the phones.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  10. What? Yes it can. by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 4, Interesting

    >US Government May Not Be Able To Fix Cell Phone Unlocking Problem

    The U.S. (FCC/FTC?) can STOP the problem of locked phones by issuing an order saying that locked phones cannot be sold starting 5 minutes from now. The phone manufactures will starting doing back-flips unlocking new and current phones so fast the earths spin might slow down some.

    1. Re:What? Yes it can. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      What law gives the FCC or the FTC (or any other administrative agency) the authority to issue such a rule? (I'm not saying they do not have the authority, but your assertion that they do does not make it so).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:What? Yes it can. by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I like this idea. You can't make it legal to unlock phones, but you can probably make it illegal to sell locked phones in the first place. I already stated elsewhere in these comments that it's unnecessary to lock phones in the first place since there's already a contract with fees for breaking it, and the have the technological capability to blacklist phones that are still under a contract.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:What? Yes it can. by hedwards · · Score: 1

      The FCC decides what carriers are and are not licensed to use the spectrum in the US, they could easily demand that phones not be locked to a given carrier if that carrier wishes to retain its license to use the spectrum.

      The FCC does not require any justification for taking back spectrum as the licensees are not to claim ownership over it.

    4. Re:What? Yes it can. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The FCC does not require any justification for taking back spectrum as the licensees are not to claim ownership over it.

      I am pretty sure that the courts would disagree with that, at least I hope so. Because if the FCC does not requite any justification for taking back spectrum that means that they could shut down a carrier because it failed to sufficiently support the political agenda of those running the FCC.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    5. Re:What? Yes it can. by hedwards · · Score: 1

      No, it's true, the people own the spectrum and the broadcasters just license it. In practice, the FCC tends to be staffed by appointees that don't want to press the point, but the FCC can take back the licenses at any time.

      And tha'ts a load of hogwash, not requiring a reason is not the same as having an unconstitutional reason.

    6. Re:What? Yes it can. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I know that it is true that those who make use of spectrum are considered to merely license the use of it from the government. If the FCC can under current law take back the license at any time without having a reason, than they can take back the license for what you called an "unconstitutional" reason. How would you prove that they had a reason, since you said that they did not need one? Let alone prove that the reason is unconstitutional?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    7. Re:What? Yes it can. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The ICC could probably do the same thing.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    8. Re:What? Yes it can. by Solandri · · Score: 1

      I like this idea. You can't make it legal to unlock phones, but you can probably make it illegal to sell locked phones in the first place.

      I don't understand why this is even an issue. It never should've been about "allowing" us to unlock our phones in the first place. I bought it, and once my contract is up (subsidy paid off) I've fully paid for it. It's mine. The carriers have absolutely no business saying what I can or can't do with it, and it should be illegal for them to keep it locked.

      That is the real issue here - whether a seller can place usage restrictions on something entirely bought, paid for, and owned by someone else (as opposed to leased, rented, or licensed). If you let the carriers have their way with this, you're opening the door to car companies requiring you to buy gas only from their partner gas stations, grocery stores prohibiting you from mixing food bought at their store with food bought at a different store when preparing a meal, PC hardware manufacturers saying you're not allowed to install Linux on their systems, etc. We already went through all this with the Cue Cat (which was ostensibly licensed, so they had more of a legal leg to stand on than the carriers in this case).

    9. Re:What? Yes it can. by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      I like this idea. You can't make it legal to unlock phones, but you can probably make it illegal to sell locked phones in the first place. I already stated elsewhere in these comments that it's unnecessary to lock phones in the first place since there's already a contract with fees for breaking it, and the have the technological capability to blacklist phones that are still under a contract.

      Unlocking phones is not the problem; unlocking it by circumventing DRM is the problem. If the manufacturer or carrier unlocks it, they are not circumventing anything. So this treaty may make it impossible to allow _you_ to unlock your phone by circumventing DRM, but the carrier can unlock it, and a law that _requires_ the carrier to unlock your phone wouldn't be against this treaty either.

  11. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I really don't see why phones are locked in the first place. You're already tied to the carrier with a legal contract. There shouldn't need to be a technical measure in place to make sure you don't take the phone to a different carrier. If you try to leave before the contract is over, there's already high fees for breaking the contract. If you choose to not pay those fees, it would probably look bad on your credit rating. After your contract term ends, you should be free to do whatever you want with the phone. Actually, If they now have the system in place to block stolen phones, the major providers could probably place the phones from non-paid contracts on a list where they would refuse to allow the phone be used until the contract is paid in full.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  12. Bullshit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Invade another country? "No problem. We'll just have to change the rules."

    Make it legal ( again ) to unlock phones? "We want to do it but our hands are tied."

    Of course it is bullshit!

    They are not doing it because their corporate owners don't want them to. They just want to make it seem like they are on our side. If they are, then who is this mystical other side that makes this impossible. This is bullshit.

  13. Free Trade? Yeah right. by kramer2718 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I find it really ironic that it is a "Free Trade Agreement" that is preventing an activity that fundamentally is "Free Trade" (you can sell an unlocked phone to someone on another network).

    I believe it comes down to the fact that governments support business at the expense of small business and DIYers. Probably because small business can't aford lobbyists.

  14. This has nothing to do with the carriers by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is the carriers which are responsible for the locking. The suppliers don't give a rat's tail about whether a phone is locked or not. The carriers make the requests and the suppliers deliver on that request. Suppliers have no dog in the fight over locked vs. unlocked beyond the mild fact that a locked phone will likely stay in the region in which it was procured. But people who relocate and wish to take their phones with them are an insignificant minority.

    I get the feeling this is a blame and information deflecting piece intended to point people in directions which are not relevant.

    1. Re:This has nothing to do with the carriers by Somebody+Is+Using+My · · Score: 2

      Arguably, it is to the supplier's advantage if the phone is locked and can never be unlocked because then that phone is irrevocably tied to one carrier. If the end-user wants to go to another carrier, they /have/ to buy a new phone; they can't unlock their existing phone and take it with them. This means an additional sale for the supplier.

      In actuality, I'd guess that the number of end-users who actually DO bring their phones with them to a new carrier is such an insignificant amount that it's not worth them getting involved.

      I'm not entirely sure what the advantage to the carrier is, however. The end-user is already tied to the carrier by a contract and the costs of said contract more than subsidize the cost of the phone. Is it the worry that at the end of the contract the end-user will take the (over)paid-for phone and switch to another carrier? The fact that the phone is already locked doesn't seem to be stopping this; anecdotally, I know people who purposely switch (or take a new contract with the same carrier) just to /get/ new phones. I'd reckon most people who stick with a carrier past the length of the initial contract do so because of a lack of viable options or because the inconvenience of switching outweighs the benefits.

      Or is there a significant number of people who exit the initial contract prematurely (either paying off the fine or trying to get out of it entirely), signing up /only/ to get a "cheap" phone? Frankly, given how upset so many of the customers are over this issue, this would be an easy way for the carriers to garner some good will; announce that in future all cell phones are unlocked from the start (with appropriate small-text notice that, yes, you are still liable for the cost of the phone if you try to sneak out of your contract).

    2. Re:This has nothing to do with the carriers by tgd · · Score: 1

      It is the carriers which are responsible for the locking. The suppliers don't give a rat's tail about whether a phone is locked or not. The carriers make the requests and the suppliers deliver on that request. Suppliers have no dog in the fight over locked vs. unlocked beyond the mild fact that a locked phone will likely stay in the region in which it was procured. But people who relocate and wish to take their phones with them are an insignificant minority.

      I get the feeling this is a blame and information deflecting piece intended to point people in directions which are not relevant.

      The carriers want the lock to preserve their exclusivity to a device, not to lock the customer in. The manufacturers want the lock because they get kickbacks in exchange for the exclusivity.

    3. Re:This has nothing to do with the carriers by houghi · · Score: 1

      Locking is interesting for the supplier, because it means that people will have to buy a new phone. With a bit of luck they will buy one of theirs.
      They do not even have to do anything t make the phone obsolete. The phone just stops working.

      This is not even about people relocating. This is about people who get a new plan. Not sure if it happens the same all over the world, but I have seen that they just offer e new phone and by accepting that new phone, they signed up for a new 2 year plan. After 18 months, they will get the next phone.

      If you accept it, what are you going to do with 18 month old phone? Sell it? You can't, because it is locked.

      What would make sense is having a law AGAINST locking. From a end user point of view there is nothing good about it.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    4. Re:This has nothing to do with the carriers by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      I'm not entirely sure what the advantage to the carrier is, however. The end-user is already tied to the carrier by a contract and the costs of said contract more than subsidize the cost of the phone. Is it the worry that at the end of the contract the end-user will take the (over)paid-for phone and switch to another carrier? The fact that the phone is already locked doesn't seem to be stopping this; anecdotally, I know people who purposely switch (or take a new contract with the same carrier) just to /get/ new phones. I'd reckon most people who stick with a carrier past the length of the initial contract do so because of a lack of viable options or because the inconvenience of switching outweighs the benefits.

      Besides phone "exclusivity", it's profits. 10+ years ago, carriers made huge profits on voice calls, but competition eroded that, so texting was the large profit center. Then the iPhone came out with its insatiable desire for data (oddly, despite Android being 3:1 to iOS, iOS data usage is 2-3 times as much as Android - web, video, whatever), which gave carriers a whole new profit center to ding people with. So much so that unlimited voice/text plans have tumbled in price.

      Of course, what has ALWAYS remained a nice profit center is roaming - $1/minute plus long distance charges (another $1/minute unless you have a long distance plan), roaming text and roaming data.

      Guess what? If you have a locked phone and travel, you'll either have to buy and carry another phone, or put up with the roaming charges. If the carrier unlocks their phone, well, there goes that nice roaming revenue.

      So yes, carriers do benefit because the number of people who roam is enough to make tidy profits off of. And yes, they make tidy profits - when you see them write off $20K+ data bills as if it was nothing...

    5. Re:This has nothing to do with the carriers by erroneus · · Score: 1

      /sarcasm>

      {sarcasm} sorry... {/sarcasm}

    6. Re:This has nothing to do with the carriers by jonwil · · Score: 1

      The thing people are forgetting is the massive number of prepaid phones sold in the US, most (if not all) of which are sold below cost with no further payments required.
      The carriers (including prepaid only carriers like TracFone) can get away with this because they know that the prepaid phone you just bought is locked to them and will only work with their network, forcing you to buy service through them.

  15. Re:Lame Excuse by EzInKy · · Score: 1

    Too many people hate on Obama for him to accomplish much.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
  16. Secret Treaty? by hawguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is the most worrisome part of the story:

    The draft text for TPP is secret, but the U.S. proposal for the IP chapter was leaked two years ago. The leaked proposal contained KORUS's closed list of exceptions.

    How can the US sign a treaty that is secret from the citizens of the US? The government shouldn't be allowed to sign (or even consider) a trade treaty with secret terms. How else can the people know if they want to be party to the treaty?

    1. Re:Secret Treaty? by Lumpy · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Welcome to how the Republicans and Democrats operate. They are both utter scumbags.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Secret Treaty? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It isn't secret anymore -- when they actually vote on it. But then there's no time to examine it, much less get public commentary, much less habe 6 months for people to think it over.

      These are the same people who brought you the "we have to approve the health care bill to see what's in it."

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    3. Re:Secret Treaty? by jbengt · · Score: 1

      Treaties are often negotiated in secret. It would be hard to get some parties together without that. Still, it seems daft to keep a trade negotiation secret until just before voting on it - under whose authority are they negotiating, anyway, if not the people from whom they are keeping the negotiations secret?

    4. Re:Secret Treaty? by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      You neglect that the terms of most treaties historically HAVE been secret; the precise terms of a treaty requiring mutual defense, combat forces, etc are almost invariably secret as the uncertainty gives the treaty extra 'reach' diplomatically.

      Hell, many mutual defense treaties though the 19th century THEMSELVES have been secret - ie the public, and even other states don't even know they exist. (I'm looking at you, Bismarck.)

      --
      -Styopa
    5. Re:Secret Treaty? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      It isn't secret anymore -- when they actually vote on it

      Although secrets may be difficult to keep, there's no good reason to believe that secret laws haven't been passed many times and kept out of the Congressional Record (and whatever the Senate's equivalent is called.) That's especially true of treaties.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    6. Re:Secret Treaty? by rsborg · · Score: 1

      It isn't secret anymore -- when they actually vote on it. But then there's no time to examine it, much less get public commentary, much less habe 6 months for people to think it over.

      These are the same people who brought you the "we have to approve the health care bill to see what's in it."

      You think the healthcare bill was bad? The same shit was pulled back in 2001 with the Patriot Act, you know, the one that basically shredded the constitution? The "surprise legislation" and "pass major bills through must-pass budget bills as amendments" are just two of the sleazy things "lawmakers" use to strip-mine our rights for their funder's profit

      My all-time favorite sleazy trick is the last-minute amendment that changes the entire nature of the bill, sometimes a 180-degree reversal.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  17. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because, fuck you, that's why.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  18. No problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Remove U.S. troops from South Korea. North Korea invades South Korea. One or the other will win; either way, there's no longer an entity called "South Korea", so the treaty is void.

    Sure, deaths would be in the millions, but we'd be able to move from carrier to carrier then. And isn't that the most important thing?

    (for any morons reading; yes, this is just humor, not an actual avocation of war to fix our unlocking problem)

  19. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by wbr1 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    This is already done. All carriers keep a list of phones with bad ESN/MEID numbers. THey become bad through being reported lost or stolen, or having an outstanding balance. This even keeps sales of phones between customers of the same carrier down. You cant just buy a sprint phone from someone and expect it to work on sprint, if the ESN/MEID is blacklisted its a no go.
    Carrier lock is simply a way for them to try to abduct more customers. I use abduct very purposefully here.

    abduct [ab-duhkt] verb (used with object) 1. to carry off or lead away (a person) illegally and in secret or by force, especially to kidnap.

    There is no technical or contractual reason to keep you locked. The OP is correct in that you sign a binding legal contract when entering a contract with a mobile carrier, but when that contract is up, they want you to stay, not run off to some n-contract or other carrier with the phone you purchased (albiet at a subsidy) from them. If their contract did not cover the subsidy discount on the phone, then they need to redo their math and stop devices that are now legally owned by others hostage.
    In addition to this however, there is no incentive for handset makers to push to change it. If you cannot continue to use your phone on a carrier you like, what do you do? You purchase a new phone and the handset maker profits as well.
    None of this fosters competition or aids the consumer. It is solely a self serving policy by those in (capitalistic) power.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
  20. Different jurisdiction by Freddybear · · Score: 1

    IANAL but why would a treaty with Korea have any bearing on a contract dispute between an American consumer and an American cellphone service provider? Sure the provisions of the law may appear to be in conflict, but they apply to different jurisdictions.

    1. Re:Different jurisdiction by gary_7vn · · Score: 1

      Signed and ratified international treaties are US law.

    2. Re:Different jurisdiction by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Because of the supremacy clause in the Constitution:

      "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."

    3. Re:Different jurisdiction by Freddybear · · Score: 2

      All that says is that treaty law supersedes state law. It says nothing about whether a treaty can alter domestic contract law.

    4. Re:Different jurisdiction by Freddybear · · Score: 1

      Indeed they are but their scope is international, not domestic. Korea would not have standing in a case between ATT and Freddybear in the matter of my unlocking my Samsung phone.

    5. Re:Different jurisdiction by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      There's a hierarchy there that has been affirmed by the US Supreme Court, that ALL parts of the US Constitution (with more recent amendments overriding older parts) are superior to everything else.
      The second amendment needs no "solution", because it is a solution to tyranny.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  21. Treaty? BFD... by Aaden42 · · Score: 1

    As if the US has never unilaterally ignored provisions of a treaty when it suits us? Not seeing why this should stop the POTUS, assuming he really gave a damn about the rights of anyone making less than $1mil a year.

  22. US Government can do plenty by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even if a treaty forbids Congress from correcting DMCA, it should be easy to do something about it. FCC could ban the manufacture, sale, and trafficking in devices which transmit on licensed spectrum, if those devices require DMCA violations in order to repurpose.

    That wouldn't be as good as repealing DMCA, but it would make DMCA irrelevant to this narrow case. Can't unlock iPhones? Ok, unlocking iPhones will remain illegal. But it'll also be illegal to sell locked iPhones. If someone wants a locked iPhone, sell 'em a locked iPod Touch instead, implement the phone functionality using wifi.

    Of course: fuck the treaty. Repeal DMCA instead. And fuck all these narrow DMCA-amending proposals which are limited to "wireless devices."

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  23. Not a treaty by mbone · · Score: 1

    These are agreements, not treaties (the pesky "A" in the KORUS FTA). They have not gone through the Senate as treaties. There was legislation to approve the agreement, which says

    “No provision of the [KORUS] Agreement, nor the application of any such provision to any person or circumstance, which is inconsistent with any law of the United States shall have effect.”

    These agreements themselves are, as I understand it, the equivalent of a Presidential executive order; subject to being canceled at the stroke of a pen.
    If they limit the President, it is an excuse, not compulsion.

    I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

    1. Re:Not a treaty by mbone · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as international law, except through treaty obligations. The US has no obligation to comply agreements. This agreement has the same status as an executive agreement, the President can void it at will. Note that the enabling act does not refer to "pre-existing" laws, but to any law. Congress can void this at will too, or pass laws that render parts of it moot, even over a Presidential veto if they so chose.

      That is why the Constitution set up a treaty mechanism. Treaties are laws of the land. Agreements are not. Now, the US may chose to act as if this is in force - it is an agreement, after all, between the parties - but to say that the President or the Congress "cannot" do something because of it is simply false.

  24. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

    That's what the two-year contract is for -- to amortize the cost of the $600 phone over 2 years while still giving them (Verizon, et al) service profits.

    Fair enough, if that's how the cost plays out so you don't have to pay for a laptop equivalent up front. But you are still buying it, so it should be yours at the end.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  25. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by wbr1 · · Score: 1

    My point exactly about the subsidized phoned. And if for some reason they have not recouped their costs for providing the phone at a discount through their contract, that is a failure of their MBAs, not the customer. They chose the terms, not the customer.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
  26. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by tgd · · Score: 1

    I really don't see why phones are locked in the first place. You're already tied to the carrier with a legal contract. There shouldn't need to be a technical measure in place to make sure you don't take the phone to a different carrier. If you try to leave before the contract is over, there's already high fees for breaking the contract. If you choose to not pay those fees, it would probably look bad on your credit rating. After your contract term ends, you should be free to do whatever you want with the phone. Actually, If they now have the system in place to block stolen phones, the major providers could probably place the phones from non-paid contracts on a list where they would refuse to allow the phone be used until the contract is paid in full.

    It has nothing to do with the contract with you, it has to do with the contracts they have with the manufacturers. Locking is about tying the handset to the carrier, not you to the carrier.

    Example: you could unlock the iPhone as soon as it showed up on other carriers. Even ATT would do it while you were still on contract, if you asked.

    Phones that are still on exclusive contracts tend to be non-unlockable.

  27. Selective Enforcement by Comboman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Having "unenforced" laws on the books that everyone breaks is dangerous because it allows police to selectively enforce those laws when they need to punish a specific individual or group (cracking down on homeless people for loitering for example, or the overly broad "computer hacking" law which was used to go after Arron Swartz).

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    1. Re:Selective Enforcement by alexo · · Score: 1

      Having "unenforced" laws on the books that everyone breaks is dangerous because it allows police to selectively enforce those laws when they want to harass a specific individual or group

      FTFY.

  28. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by houghi · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Even before the contract ends,. you should be allowed to do whatever you want with the phone. If I sign the contract and decide I want to use my Nokia 3110. I should be allowed to do that.
    The phone that I got with the deal I should be allowed to give to my kid to play games on. I should be able to sell it.
    If I make more money on selling the phone then I did by paying you, then that pricing policy of yours is YOUR problem, not mine.

    It is not just locking. Bundled sales is the other part that is bad for people.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  29. Easy solution by michelcolman · · Score: 1

    Just make it legal to unlock phones that were not made in South-Korea, and keep it illegal to unlock South-Korean ones. There, problem solved, everybody happy.

    1. Re:Easy solution by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      D'oh, why is Apple still using components from Samsung?

  30. Cell phone unlocking is legal in Canada by mark-t · · Score: 1

    Barring a contractual agreement that is made with your cell phone provider that otherwise prohibits it (which is good for 2-3 years), it is explicitly legal in Canada to unlock a cell phone.

    So why can't the USA adopt a similar solution to this problem as their neighbors to the north?

    Otherwise, I can foresee a booming business in Canadian border-towns for people living in the states that are also near the border, where they could entirely legally unlock phones for people visiting from the USA (for a price), since it is evidently not illegal in the USA to own or possess an unlocked cell phone, and you cannot, in general, be held liable for doing something that happens to be against the law in one specific jurisdiction when you are not actually in that jurisdiction (or else, for example, people from California who gamble in Las Vegas could get arrested when they return).

  31. the fuck by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

    Who is so fucking stupid at this point to say "oh, Obama may not actually be able to do anything about it anyway"? This is the administration which has essentially defined saying they'll do one thing, and not doing it. It's also the administration which has said they think it's cool to drone strike its own citizens.

    Why the fuck do you think they'd do anything more than placate people at this point? Asinine.

    --
    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  32. Just abrogate the treaty by gary_7vn · · Score: 1

    It's done all the time. *see: Geneva Conventions

  33. Re:another reason by Custard+Horse · · Score: 1

    You should choose another Korea..

  34. Treaties are subordinate to laws, not the reverse by gurps_npc · · Score: 3, Informative
    Treaties are LESS powerful than Law, not more so. No treaty can make us do anything at all - countries break treaties all the time (see North Korea).

    It is perfectly legal for the President to signa treaty that says "We will send all of our mushrooms to Canada."

    Then Congress can pass a law that says "We will not send ANY mushrooms to Canada."

    In such a case than it is illegal to send mushrooms to Canada, no matter what the treaty says. Canada can sue us in international court, and that court may assign sanctions to us, but they can not force us to send them all our mushrooms.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  35. Sorry Korea by Skapare · · Score: 1

    Change the treaty terms. Tell South Korea to agree to the changes or the whole deal is off. Oh, and about those troops we have in your land ...

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  36. NO IANAL! by Greyfox · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Right, none of that!

    Congress can fix this problem. Congress just doesn't want to fix this problem. See the difference?

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  37. Re:Treaties are subordinate to laws, not the rever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Absolutely incorrect.

    You really need to learn the difference between self executing and non-self executing treaties. Many treaties themselves are most certainly be law, without subsequent legislation.

    Also, they are broader in purview even than federal statutes. Take a look at Missouri v. Holland

    Yes, IAL

  38. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by lordbeejee · · Score: 1

    Are there no phones for sale in regular electronic shops in the US? Over here we have some carriers with locked phones in combination with longterm contracts but most people just buy the manufacturer labeled phones (these are pretty clean installs with the usually manufacturer skins) since the "subsidised phones" are just expensive loans.

  39. Alter the TPP discussions by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    There's no reason the TPP treaty can't be amended to require signatories have no anti-circumvention laws. The president has the power to get on this right now. He could do it today. It would be a totally legitimate political decision, too. "The people are saying this sucks. Let's try to not suck."

    If such a change makes the agreement unacceptable to the other parties, then I guess "free trade" isn't very important, so I don't want to hear any more excuses about how these treaties are a vital priority.

    If such an agreement is accepted and conflicts with earlier agreements, then you go resolve the earlier agreements which would then have become out-of-date. The fact that it's incompatible with old treaties or a not-yet ratified treaty is irrelevant. If someone had said the people didn't have the right to pass the 21st Amendment based on the argument that it conflicted with the 18th Amendment, they would have been called out as absurd.

    If the president uses the free trade agreements as an excuse for not pressuring Congress to repeal DMCA, he'll get away with the inaction, but nobody should let him get away with this sort of rationalization for it. It'll be a lie, and everyone will know it, and we'll call him on it. Mr. President, don't do it unless your goal is to discredit yourself.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  40. Re:Treaties are subordinate to laws, not the rever by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    You really need to learn the difference between self executing and non-self executing treaties. Many treaties themselves are most certainly be law, without subsequent legislation.

    Even a self-executing treaty can be overridden by a federal statute, though the Court generally won't read a statute as having this effect implicitly, only when the statute expressly states its intent to override the treaty provision.

    While GP was incorrect to state that treaties are "LESS powerful than Law", they still are not akin to the Constitution which cannot be overridden by statute, so the idea present in TFS that the existence of the treaty commitments makes it impossible for the unlocking problem to be addressed by the US government remains wrong.

  41. Please. by endus · · Score: 1

    Does anyone actually think the administration had any intent of following through on what it said? This was a PR stunt to try and look like good guys. They knew very well that there were hiccups because of the treaty but, more importantly, that the change would never get past congress in the first place.

    Why are people still so naive about how the government in this country works? Maybe I'm overly cynical, but I have a preeeeeeeeetty solid track record of predicting how these things will work out. The majority of people seem to think that these things are still decided by law and principle and opinion. They're not. They're decided by money and political wrangling.

    Who would benefit from the ability to unlock phones? Consumers/voters. Who would lose? Cell Companies. Which is more important, looking cool to voters, or continuing to get the truckloads of money that an American politician must have to have even a ghost of a chance of winning an election? The answer is obviously the money, because without the money you can't get in the game in the first place. This form of corruption is so widespread that there really isn't a significant body of lawmakers who are really making an issue out of things like this, so why take a stand on something that you will never have to answer for in an election and will absolutely 100% lose you money that you need to win the election in the first place?

    1. Re:Please. by Isaac+Remuant · · Score: 1

      You're right but they still got what they wanted.

      A) People praised them for "defending our rights"/"doing the right thing"

      B) Many people "are disappointed but understand" or choose to blame an external factor so it was all image benefit and no loss.

      I keep repeating. Do NOT listen to what a politician has to say. He will ALWAYS say whatever favors him politically. Instead, closely monitor his actions and you'll see the real deal.

      --
      "Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
  42. Re:Treaties are subordinate to laws, not the rever by mbone · · Score: 1

    Absolutely incorrect.

    You really need to learn the difference between self executing and non-self executing treaties. Many treaties themselves are most certainly be law, without subsequent legislation.

    Also, they are broader in purview even than federal statutes. Take a look at Missouri v. Holland

    Yes, IAL

    Then you should be aware that KORUS FTA is not a treaty.

    To the original poster, read the Constitution (Article VI, in this case)

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

    The crucial thing is that you left out the part about ratifying treaties (Article II, Section 2)

    He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur;...

    That is a high bar, but it's what you have to do to have a Treaty become law. Once that happens, the President and Congress cannot ignore it. If it is just something the President signs, then he (or a later President) can sign something different.

  43. such bullshit by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    "...U.S. proposal in the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP) and existing obligations in the Korea-U.S. Free Trade Agreement (KORUS) and other free trade agreements to which the United States is a party."

    1) the TPP is merely PROPOSED. It's complete bullshit to say we can't just CHANGE OUR PROPOSAL. Jesus.

    2) US Law > treaties (at least within the US). Congress has to basically pass a law authorizing any treaty. That law can be rewritten, struck, etc just like ANY OTHER US LAW, as far as its applicability to US citizens.

    Simply, the administration's position on this is an outright, simple, lie.
    You know, government has been full of crap for at least the last 70 years, but within the last couple of administrations they aren't even bothering to try to conceal it anymore, they just state what they want us to believe. Their partisans cheerfully man the barricades to defend (whatever it is, even if it contradicts their party's basic premises), while the opposition fulminates pointlessly all over the web - in the meanwhile the government goes back to whatever it was doing anyway, uncaring.

    --
    -Styopa
  44. Treaties, schmeaties. by czth · · Score: 1

    I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.

  45. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They chose the terms, not the customer.

    Yet they still call such an unnegotiated, single-sided agreement a "contract"...

  46. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

    That's what the two-year contract is for -- to amortize the cost of the $600 phone over 2 years while still giving them (Verizon, et al) service profits.

    So why doesn't my mobile bill drop to half or less after the amortized phone is paid off?

    --
    'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
  47. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by mrbester · · Score: 2

    For the same reason petrol isn't reduced in price at the pump the day crude prices drop but is increased the day crude prices go up: fuck you

    --
    "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
  48. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

    That's what the two-year contract is for -- to amortize the cost of the $600 phone over 2 years while still giving them (Verizon, et al) service profits.

    Fair enough, if that's how the cost plays out so you don't have to pay for a laptop equivalent up front. But you are still buying it, so it should be yours at the end.

    You are almost there...

    The carriers are not amortizing the phones. From a legal perspective, the ownership of the physical device is transferred at the start of the contract when the person pays the agreed upon price. Sales taxes on the phone are paid at the beginning, and any future payments are against the service being provided, not the phone itself.

    Therefore, the phone is yours at the beginning, regardless of the terms of the service contract.

    For the phone to be yours at the end, you would have to be paying against an amortized debt, and you would be gaining equity in the property until the debt is paid in full. The carriers do NOT want to do it this way because such a transfer incurs a different set of laws and obligations.

    --
    Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
  49. beg to differ by Chirs · · Score: 1

    While it may not be true in the letter of the law (IANAL, so I don't know) it's certainly true that *in spirit* you are amortizing the cost of the phone over a multi-year contract.

    Thus, if you cancel the contract before the phone subsidy has been paid off, you are on the hook to pay an extra penalty to cover the cost of the phone subsidy.

    Of course, the extra fees and requirements for data plans and such mean that the carrier generally makes *far* more than the equipment subsidy over the length of the contract.

  50. Many people misunderstand the supremacy clause. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Many people misunderstand the supremacy clause.

    The clause reads:

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

    This is often misread as putting treaties on a par with constitutional amendments and making them trump federal law.

    In fact the clause puts treaties on a par with federal law, below the constitution, and makes the whole set of three (constitution, law, treaties) trump state law where they conflict with it.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  51. This is just insane by fa2k · · Score: 1

    The anit-circumvention rule has gone off the rails. One thing is breaking e-book DRM for the blind to read them, or ripping DVDs for backup. Then you are actually copying something.

    Now phone unlocking is different: you are not actually copying *anything*. This should not be a copyright issue at all. It's one thing if they want to make a rule to let a manufacturer limit what you can do with a product you bought, for their business interests. Try to get that law to pass, etc. I'll hate you, but less. Sneaking it in through copyright, however, is just dishonest and disgusting. It also demonstrates how the world of copyright is much more restrictive than the laws that govern the physical world.

    I also wonder if I took the ROM and flash chips out of an iPhone and overwrote the content with my own OS, if that would still be legal. Is the tenuous copyright argument tied to the OS & software, or do they not even bother trying to point to a copyrighted work?

  52. So an activist Supreme Court could... by Eugriped3z · · Score: 1

    ... choose to ignore your rights when Congress fails to respect them?

    "A public interest coalition known as Citizens Trade Campaign published a draft of the Trans Pacific Parnership chapter on “investment” revealing information about the “international tribunal” which would allow corporations to directly sue governments that have barriers to “potential profits.”

    This is exactly the type of domestic situtaion that allows real estate developers to sue state or local governments for inflated valuation based on the claim of 'lost future profits' when eminent domain is used to condemn property, even though the purpose requires that the action be in the better interest of the general public. I've never understood why the courts don't make it clear that an investor's freedom to risk does not imply an inherent 'right' to expect a profit, but now the Obama administration appears likely to codify it for transnational corporations?

    Additionally, I've never been able to fathom the short-sightedness of the U.S. ratifying trade agreements that allow companies in other countries that lack the same environmental protections, equivalent to our Federal EPA's, to import goods here without meeting the same standards or suffering economic sanctions that would offset the advantage. If we made international polluters pay for the access to our markets, we could use the fees to support clean development overseas. Unfortunately, if we subsidize clean operations here, other countries can argue for the right to sanction us under the rules of the WTO treaty.

    These international treaties, that promote commerce while diminishing respect for environmental justice, hurt us all in the long run. It makes the task of promoting social justice harder as well. Focusing on trade while subordinating the health of the environment makes it easier for governments to avoid the inevitable questions of sustainability or population growth.

    We already live in a world where the West promotes the futility of population control because it's just to difficult to imagine trying to convince people that we're actually subject to the same constraints that science, religion or globalization are exacerbating for the rest of the life.

    I wonder who will die last, with all the toys... the lucky stiff.

  53. FTAs are evil by cas2000 · · Score: 1

    This demonstrates the danger of including in international agreements rigid provisions that do not accommodate technological development.

    no, it demonstrates the danger of allowing corporations to limit national sovereignty by lobbying for and getting so-called "Free Trade Agreements".

    Every single one of them is designed not to promote or encourage trade but to restrict the ability of governments of the signing nations to make laws or policies that interfere with corporate interests.

    which is why they're giving nice-sounding names like "Free Trade Agreement" rather than "Stealth Takeover of Government Act"

  54. Antitrust solution by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    The ultimate solution is to forbid wireless carriers from selling phones. Does Comcast/Time Warner sell televisions? Do they sell laptops? No, that would probably violate antitrust law. Yet we allow wireless carriers to sell phones.

    We don't need new laws to make locking/unlocking legal. We need to remove the monopoly incentive that makes the practice profitable.

  55. Re:other countries have laws that phones must be u by TheSeatOfMyPants · · Score: 1

    We need to end carrier only phones and phones with all the carrier software forced on you that you have to hack your own phone to remove it you should have the choice of how much of the software that you want. Visual voice mail (good), a app that let's you see how many mins / data / txt of your plan that you used ...

    The best way to do that for now is for people to quit choosing the carriers that require contracts, stuff phones full of crap then lock them down. If enough people stopped "voting" with their wallets in favor of those practices, the big companies would eventually change their tune.

    It does mean (as in my case) going with what the person can afford rather than the absolute latest technology... However, IMHO it's more than worth it knowing I fully own my phone, I'm not locked to a contract or charged for a bundle of data/txt/minutes I'll never use just to get what I do need, and my funds support a company (in my case Ting) that favors our freedom rather than the ones that favor only whatever gets them more money. Complaining about how our nation's government-corrupting cell companies shaft their customers, then giving them money to continue doing it doesn't make a lot of sense in my book unless there are no other options whatsoever.

    --
    Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
  56. Re:Treaties are subordinate to laws, not the rever by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
    You might be right when discussing countries other than the United States of America. But I am absolutely CORRECT and you are wrong if we are talking about the USA. You need to actually read the wiki on the case you sighted.

    Missouri v. Holland said that a STATE law can't over-ride a federal law.

    Yes, the state department then went and made a treaty to convince the SCOTUS that the Federal government had the right to pass that law. But the treaty was supporting the law, not the other way around.

    As for your mis-formed idea of self-executing treaties, they only exist in cases where previous LAWS were previously passed to give the federal government the right to pass that treaty.

    As in, law over-rides treaty.

    At heart your opinion fails to understand the basics of American separation of powers. The people amend the Constitution (highest authority). Congress passes the laws under those Amendments. The Executive Branch administers the laws. Courts judge the laws (against the Constitution),

    The President can not over-ride Congress by signing a treaty.

    If your rather twisted version of government applied in the US, then Barack Obama could for example, make assault weapons illegal simply by including a paragraph in a treaty with Mexico.

    No, he can't do that, because there is NO such thing as a 'self-executing treaty" unless congress has already explicitly passed a law allowing it.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  57. But... by Meski · · Score: 1

    Fixing cell phone locking is a technical problem, not a political one.

  58. Re:Treaties are subordinate to laws, not the rever by redlemming · · Score: 1

    More to the point, if the treaty invalidates the Bill of Rights, an open-ended document due to the presence of the 9th Amendment, the treaty would not be valid in the first place. At least some applications of unlocking phones would have to be considered an exercise of reasonable conduct rights arising under the 9th Amendment.

    We know from history that treaties can not infringe fundamental rights. Consider the following:

    Two states refused to ratify the original Constitution. Other states only ratified after men of honor such as James Madison, whose promises were trusted, promised to add a Bill of Rights. All of the states knew that they could withdraw at any time, should these promises not come to fruition, as it was neither militarily nor politically feasible (at that time) to force any state to be part of the Union.

    If these states were prepared to trust the authority of the federal government, including the authority granted by the treaty power, then there would have been no need for a Bill of Rights. However, the history shows that the states felt a strong need for a Bill of Rights, and hence they were not prepared to trust the federal government with the powers granted in the original Constitution.

    This history clearly shows the authority of the Bill of Rights is intended to trump the powers granted in the earlier parts of the Constitution, including the treaty power.

    Simple logic confirms this (essentially a proof by contradiction argument): if the treaty power could trump the Bill of Rights, then any right could be infringed merely by writing a treaty to do it, and no rights would exist. However, the Bill of Rights provides for the existence of rights (and in fact makes the list of possible rights open-ended), we have a contradiction, and the original assumption that the treaty power trumps the Bill of Rights is shown to be invalid.