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Schneier: Security Awareness Training 'a Waste of Time'

An anonymous reader writes "Security guru Bruce Schneier contends that money spent on user awareness training could be better spent and that the real failings lie in security design. 'The whole concept of security awareness training demonstrates how the computer industry has failed. We should be designing systems that won't let users choose lousy passwords and don't care what links a user clicks on,' Schneier writes in a blog post on Dark Reading. He says organizations should invest in security training for developers. He goes on, '... computer security is an abstract benefit that gets in the way of enjoying the Internet. Good practices might protect me from a theoretical attack at some time in the future, but they’re a bother right now, and I have more fun things to think about. This is the same trick Facebook uses to get people to give away their privacy. No one reads through new privacy policies; it's much easier to just click "OK" and start chatting with your friends. In short: Security is never salient.'"

284 comments

  1. Obligatory car analogy by qbast · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It demonstrates that car industry has failed. We should be designing systems that don't need seatbelts and don't care if user decides to slam into a tree at 100km/h. Whole concept of secure driving is just an abstract benefit that gets in the way of enjoying driving.

    1. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Cat_Herder_GoatRoper · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Employee awareness training is inexpensive and I bet "Security guru Bruce Schneier" will provide training to your developers that is not inexpensive.

    2. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Automatic breaking, collision avoidance systems, completely automatic cars, ...

      Yea, I'd say that's actually the direction we're heading.

    3. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      but would you download a car?

    4. Re:Obligatory car analogy by mwvdlee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To stay closer to the original analogy...

      Would you drive a car randomly left by the side of the road with big stickers on it saying "You may be eligable to win $1mln if you drive this car!!! (paid for by Soilent Green Corp.".

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    5. Re:Obligatory car analogy by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, he's saying that we should be adding seat belts and anti-lock breaks and eventually self-driving cars to eliminate the need for the user to focus on safety in driving. He's arguing that the safety should be built into the system, and not rely on the judgement of the user. That's the exact opposite of your example.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    6. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Driving a car is a far more focused task, with more salient dangers. Even without safety training people understand that driving erratically, or at high speeds can be dangerous. Using a computer or the internet is more like watching TV or reading an article and determining if what you're watching is fact or fiction; it requires judgement and motivation.

      Given that many adults don't have these skills and importantly that the effects of failure extend beyond the individual involved what Schneier is proposing makes sense.
       

    7. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      self-driving cars

      We already have those. It's called a bus, and it's a very effective way of getting people to buy a non-self-driving car.

    8. Re:Obligatory car analogy by jewens · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The training itself may be inexpensive, but the lost time for "all" employees forced to take the course/class/lecture is not. Not to mention the burden on your staff in tracking attendance compliance etc.

      --
      That group of bovine standing over there appears quite portentous. That's right it's an ominous cow herd.
    9. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Ardyvee · · Score: 1

      Except self-driving cars remove the fun of driving (not the fun of moving around, but you know, some people like to drive themselves). But yeah, you're right. That's what the guy meant if you were to make an obligatory car analogy.

      --
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    10. Re:Obligatory car analogy by philip.paradis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bruce is right. In many environments, information awareness training is an attempt to solve the problem at entirely the wrong end of the failure chain, and is frequently ineffective. It may be difficult to hear for some, but the fact is that such training simply doesn't have a great track record of producing significant overall gains in organizational security, largely owing to the difficulty of mitigating widespread stupidity on the part of human operators. Most companies are not wholly staffed by information security experts, and any perceived near term security gains following training sessions quickly erode as employees revert back to an attitude of "I just want to do X, Y, and Z, and I'm too busy to keep thinking about those scary stories portrayed in last week's training."

      Even military environments suffer from these training challenges. The difference in a military unit is the very real possibility of going to prison for merely mishandling cryptographic material on accident. On the "low" end of the punishment scale, there's more than a few senior enlisted military comms folks out of a job because of such process failures. I served with one such person.

      It's worth noting in closing that you might want to spend a bit of time looking into who Bruce Schneier is before framing him in any additional snarky quote marks. To say this is a man who typically knows what he's talking about is an understatement.

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      Write failed: Broken pipe
    11. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? The fuel tank is installed such that it will blow up in almost any type of accident? Invest in more 'security awareness' of the drivers!!
      Such was the mentality of the car industry before independent safety tests became mandatory.

    12. Re:Obligatory car analogy by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Funny

      What's so fun about driving? That's like saying a Roomba takes the fun out of sweeping the floor.

    13. Re:Obligatory car analogy by philip.paradis · · Score: 1

      Here's a better car analogy. You're driving down the street on four bald tires, and a guy driving a truck for a tire shop happens to pull up next to you at a red light. The guy remarks on your crap tires, and now you have two choices. You can listen to him because he probably knows what he's talking about when he tells you you're running a serious risk of dying on the highway when one of those tires fails catastrophically, or irrationally ignore him because you perceive that he's just trying to sell you something.

      All the driving skills and seat belts in the world won't beat physics when one of those tires blows out at 80 mph and you flip the median into an ongoing semi.

      --
      Write failed: Broken pipe
    14. Re:Obligatory car analogy by dinfinity · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No. TFS is a terrible representation of TFA.

      This is a more fitting excerpt:

      The whole concept of security awareness training demonstrates how the computer industry has failed. We should be designing systems that won't let users choose lousy passwords and don't care what links a user clicks on. We should be designing systems that conform to their folk beliefs of security, rather than forcing them to learn new ones.

      Even though TFA is pretty crappy itself with its myriad of bad analogies, the idea of trying to craft effective simplified 'folksy' models makes sense. My favourite metaphor for internet security is regarding the internet as a square in a foreign city center. It gets the message of what to trust and what not across a lot better than trying to explain Javascript, cross-site scripting, or what an executable is.

      In addition to this approach to raising security awareness, a case is (sort of) made for designing systems to support users in security related decisions in a way consistent with the above. I'd say that a green colored address bar in a browser is an example of how to do it the right way and the blanket statement 'this file may harm your computer' one of how to do it the wrong way.

    15. Re:Obligatory car analogy by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Yea, I'd say that's actually the direction we're heading.

      True, which is why we need to step back a bit. Yet another car analogy might apply here. We would all be safer drivers if we were strapped to the front of our cars like Aztec sacrifices [a virtual beer for anyone cool enough to spot that reference]. Similarly, an appropriate modicum of paranoia in our online behavior would prevent a bucketload of grief.

    16. Re:Obligatory car analogy by LaggedOnUser · · Score: 2

      Have you forgotten about air bags? They are there precisely so that you don't have to remember to use your seat belt...

    17. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Sique · · Score: 2

      But Pontiac was an Ottawa chief and not an Aztec.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    18. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... you really don't know who Bruce Schneier IS, do you?

    19. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your car analogy is completely off.
      The correct one would be: Bruce Schneier says it's better to spend money on putting seatbelts in cars, in making cars that the user can't push over the safety limit, that can not be driven off road, etc than to spend money on educating the drivers to drive safely.

      The analogy is also not relevant because driving a car recklessly poses a danger to the drivers life, and even if there is no immediate death threat, the driver may be arrested by police if he does not follow the rules.
      There is no police that will arrest you if you don't use strong passwords, and there is no life threat. So the approach must be different with computer security. Unless we are prepared create and pay for the "strong password police force", or set computer security practices into law.

    20. Re:Obligatory car analogy by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Sorry, been in PC retail for nearly 25 years and I can tell you training the grunts? NEVER works. Now training the IT staff? Sure send 'em to blackhat, pay for security classes, those ARE good investments that will see return, but Sally the secretary, that sees the PC as a magic black box that lets her do her work? Sorry but its gonna go in one ear and out the other.

      It would be like trying to teach me how to rebuild cars, i don't like cars, never cared about what model I drove, I just don't give a damn as long as it gets me from A to B and THAT is how many of your employees see the PC. They don't want to know about the thing, couldn't care less what its doing as long as they can get their work done and punch out, they have not the slightest interest in PCs which if you don't have any desire to really learn? Not gonna stick.

      So i have to agree that paying to train the regular staff is just a waste of time and energy. Much better to make sure you have well trained IT staff that can minimize the risk that your end users will have because frankly you are just wasting your breath when you try to teach somebody who doesn't care about PCs how to securely use one.

      --
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    21. Re:Obligatory car analogy by milkasing · · Score: 1

      That. Every system can only do so much. Ultimately, even the best designed system depends on having people do the right thing, and accept changes that makes the system more secure
      What use is it if you build a closed environment, with restricted access and rely on two factor authentication, if some CxO gives his RSA token and password to his unvetted summer intern to do some trivial task without supervision?
      Is security awareness training the end all of IT security? Of course not. But frankly, it is a trivial part of a security budget and it does have real benefits.

    22. Re:Obligatory car analogy by JustOK · · Score: 2

      Only if the blinkers were on.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    23. Re:Obligatory car analogy by JustOK · · Score: 1

      Some androids enjoy ironing.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    24. Re:Obligatory car analogy by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Employee awareness training is inexpensive and I bet "Security guru Bruce Schneier" will provide training to your developers that is not inexpensive.

      Training only goes so far. Even the best-trained user will make a mistake.

      "Oh, I didn't mean to click that".

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    25. Re:Obligatory car analogy by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Actually it's closer to a taxi. Which most people have cause to use from time to time. They're particularly useful in cities.

    26. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a lot of respect for Bruce, but I don't agree. When you specialize, you tend to view all problems through your expertise. I have a network background so when a problem comes up I tend towards technology solutions.

      This discussion is a classic view of the CIA triad. You can always adjust CI and limit A. Built-in security will only take you so far as long as you require user functionality.

      One of the other posters describes adding seat belts to build on the car analogy. Sure you can add seat belts, but the user still has to use them, it's not auto-enabled. Builtin security isn't going to prevent people from leaving their passwords/smart cards/biometric data exposed.

      I'd say that organizations and especially organization leadership don't have a strong history of punishing malefactors unless they happen to be mid-lower level employees. If executives start losing financially from security compromises under their watch, then more would get done to up the security posture of the organization. Uptraining the IT staff is basically bastion hosting your organization and hoping nothing gets past your non-layered defense.

    27. Re:Obligatory car analogy by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      No beer for you. Sorry.

    28. Re:Obligatory car analogy by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Driving can be fun. When you get away from it all, and there's an open road, through nice scenery, with lots of nice swooping corners.

      However, most of the time, for most people, it's being stuck in heavy traffic, on a dull road. The same road, every day. And few people find that fun.

    29. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It demonstrates that car industry has failed. We should be designing systems that don't need seatbelts and don't care if user decides to slam into a tree at 100km/h. Whole concept of secure driving is just an abstract benefit that gets in the way of enjoying driving.

      No, the correct analogy is systems like the ABS, TCS, etc, vs "Safe driving awareness" trainings to teach drivers how to avoid locking their brakes or maintain proper traction to avoid spinning out of control.

      For professional drivers, sure, they will learn those techniques and would do better with all those systems turned off. For the usual Joe driver, however, ABS, TCS, air bags, etc, are the correct answer.

    30. Re:Obligatory car analogy by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      In many ways computing today is like not having seatbelts.
      Passwords are just not good for security anymore. Most hacks go around them, or just use someones elses password list and give it a shot. or the person just keeps it fairly visible. Passwords are more like Anti-lock mechanism to your breaks then like seat belts. They will prevent some of the minor problems but not help protect in the case of a major problem, and sometimes cause problems where it didn't need to happen.

      The real issue there is little to no planning for a lot of these organizations on isolating their networks so systems that do not need to talk to other systems are restricted, not every system on your network needs access to the internet, and if it does, it should only be connected to sites it really need to connect too.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    31. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct. Humans shoudl not be allow to drive cars. We should be attempt to fix this major problem and replace humans with safer systems. Humans are fundamentally incapable of safely operating an automobile.

    32. Re:Obligatory car analogy by invid · · Score: 1

      It demonstrates that car industry has failed. We should be designing systems that don't need seatbelts and don't care if user decides to slam into a tree at 100km/h.

      Considering the close to 2 million deaths per year due to automobiles, you could say the car industry has failed by relying too much on individual training and responsibility. Not that available technology gave them much of a choice. The solution, of course, is to completely take humans out of the equation, which Google is working on.

      --
      The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
    33. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Chas · · Score: 1

      The training itself may be inexpensive, but the lost time for "all" employees forced to take the course/class/lecture is not. Not to mention the burden on your staff in tracking attendance compliance etc.

      And, compared to the cost of cleaning up an incident, it's STILL infinitesimally small.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    34. Re:Obligatory car analogy by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      You need some schooling on Bruce:

      http://www.schneierfacts.com/facts/371/

      --
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    35. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Most companies are not wholly staffed by information security experts, and any perceived near term security gains following training sessions quickly erode as employees revert back to an attitude of "I just want to do X, Y, and Z, and I'm too busy to keep thinking about those scary stories portrayed in last week's training."
      ___
      I would put the blame on management, not the employees. If your manager says take this security class, then make it secure, that's what happens. If your manager says I want it yesterday, security goes out the window.

    36. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While that is true, having white hat developers trained on secure coding doesn't stop joe user from running (as root or administrator) some_codec_pack and installing something coded by a nefarious developer. If you don't get to both sides of the problem (somehow prevent users from running bad code without violating their right to use their machine with whatever software they want, AND get developers of non-nefarious code to develop programs with fewer security flaws) you are still asking for trouble. This is a hard problem. Just look how /. erupts in horror and indignation whenever someone tries to bring trusted computing to market. OMG, they are blocking Linux. Or OMG they are blocking apps I want to run - I need a jailbreak. But without having trusted computing someone needs to train the damn user or expect them to keep running that wonderful malware disguised as moar_boobs.exe.

    37. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Idarubicin · · Score: 5, Insightful
      You really, really, really don't know who Bruce Schneier is, do you?

      Moreover, you really couldn't even be bothered to do a simple Google search before you shot your mouth off, could you?

      In a way, you're actually making Schneier's point. Posting a snarky Slashdot comment is easy and instantly gratifying; doing the least bit of research is a little bit harder and doesn't pay off immediately -- so you can see which happens more often.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    38. Re:Obligatory car analogy by philip.paradis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This isn't merely a problem of specialization limiting perception. You're expecting average users to consistently conduct themselves in a manner they're demonstrably incapable of, at least the majority of them. Terminating the employment of those who fall victim to attacks through their own inaction or outright carelessness isn't a long term solution either, as it merely results in churn and a significantly higher bar in terms of what sort of person may be employed at a company. Money is limited, and organizations have to make decisions on the most effective ways to spend that capital with an aim to improving overall organizational security. That money is best spent on incrementally improved and frequently reevaluated security infrastructure and processes that inhibit improper access or information disclosure without overt reliance on human operators to make correct choices in terms of security posture, because those operators will often fail.

      I've spent years dealing with problems in this area, and I strongly dislike the reality of the situation. Unfortunately, my disliking it doesn't make it less true.

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    39. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Idarubicin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It demonstrates that car industry has failed.

      I would say that the car industry had failed if listening to the wrong radio station - tuning 92.3 instead of 92.5, say - allowed a malicious broadcaster to arbitrarily incinerate the contents of my trunk or assume remote control of my vehicle.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    40. Re:Obligatory car analogy by philip.paradis · · Score: 1

      Automatic breaking

      Yeah, that does describe a lot of IT deployments from a security perspective.

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      Write failed: Broken pipe
    41. Re:Obligatory car analogy by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 1

      free car!!!

    42. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how was this modded insightful? funny, maybe, as i thought it was a joke at first. cars and the internet are two very different things.

    43. Re:Obligatory car analogy by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

      Driving can be fun, sometimes, but never when it's commuting (and guess where I do most of my driving?)

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    44. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes...Let Them Eat Cake...

    45. Re:Obligatory car analogy by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Actually it's closer to a taxi. Which most people have cause to use from time to time. They're particularly useful in cities.

      Yes, good point - but extending the benefits of taxis beyond the cities. Every wealthy man has a driver, or hires one on demand, but the non-wealthy people don't get that.

      Heck, when I have a self-driving car, I'll see my extended family more often. They're "only" 8 hours away, but that's two full days of driving with a stack of children in the back seat. When I can tuck the kids into their car seats and nod off while the car brings me to my destination, I'll do it more often. Alright, they'll probably be banned by the politicians as soon as there is a single accident and my kids will be adults before the luddism subsides, but "in theory" this is true.

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    46. Re:Obligatory car analogy by delt0r · · Score: 2

      Don't worry, these things will be fixed with driverless cars.

      --
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    47. Re:Obligatory car analogy by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      And Schneier isn't asking for companies to stop teaching their drivers to drive safely before the seatbelts, airbags, and automatic cars are ready - he's just outlining that as the better goal than only relying on safe driving.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    48. Re:Obligatory car analogy by jewens · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree, the point I'm asserting is that the cost, to the company, is greater than the simple cost of the training. However that cost is not representative of what the company is directly willing to spend on security. Which only adds to the argument that the security ROI might be better with technological measures rather than a time-consuming training regime.

      --
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    49. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      It would be like trying to teach me how to rebuild cars, i don't like cars, never cared about what model I drove, I just don't give a damn as long as it gets me from A to B and THAT is how many of your employees see the PC. They don't want to know about the thing, couldn't care less what its doing as long as they can get their work done and punch out, they have not the slightest interest in PCs which if you don't have any desire to really learn? Not gonna stick.

      Back to the car analogy - new/inexperienced drivers are given a restricted license that prohibits them from going on dangerous roads or for driving alone. Such drivers are highly prone to do common mistakes, including attempting to drive with the parking brake active. They also do silly things, like alternate between moving and brake on a flashing green light (and the proper procedure is shown in any official manual for driving),

      They only receive permission to drive by themselves after they've proven they're safe drivers (even if the threshold is lax.)

      Concerning computers - the ones that are reckless with security are generally the ones who do stuff without thinking (i.e. click on everything) rather than follow expected procedures to do stuff. They will download viruses/malware without concern on what will happen, and do silly stuff like trying to open a Microsoft Excel document within Powerpoint.

      The carpenter analogy is trying to saw a board in half with a hammer. It technically becomes two pieces, but...

    50. Re:Obligatory car analogy by dywolf · · Score: 2

      anyone who knows anything abuot computers and has ever been forced to take the DOD IA Awareness Training online course thing (its shockwave flash!! *shudder*) knows just what a joke and waste of time it is.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    51. Re:Obligatory car analogy by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      It demonstrates that car industry has failed. We should be designing systems that don't need seatbelts and don't care if user decides to slam into a tree at 100km/h.

      This analogy is flawed because car safety mechanisms are constrained by the hard limits of physics. If someone slams a car into a tree at 100km/h, that kinetic energy has to go somewhere; car manufacturers already try to ensure that as much as possible is absorbed by the crumple zones, and protect the passenger compartment with airbags, but there's only so much they can do in the face of this kind of catastrophic failure.

      On the other hand, the fact that malware is so rampant in the IT world has nothing to do with the laws of physics; it's due to poor legacy design decisions and bad coding. We could design a system that is secure by default, but for the most part we don't.

    52. Re:Obligatory car analogy by JDG1980 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And, compared to the cost of cleaning up an incident, it's STILL infinitesimally small.

      All it takes is one single employee to ignore or disregard the training, and you'll still be paying that cleanup cost. That's Bruce Schneider's point: it's a structural problem, not one that can be fixed by placing more burdens on end users.

    53. Re:Obligatory car analogy by xenobyte · · Score: 2

      Training only goes so far. Even the best-trained user will make a mistake.

      "Oh, I didn't mean to click that".

      It will happen - but doesn't have to. There are three factors at play here: The training, the setup and the users themselves. The right kind of user doesn't need training as such, just some basic on a piece of paper (or similar electronic analogy).

      I will use myself as an example.

      I have been in IT since before the first virus or worm. I have been exchanging emails for several decades. I've pirated PC-games and downloaded cracks and keygens. I've used (among others) Windows since version 3.11 daily. I websurf for several hours each day, often venturing deep into black hat territory, but I have never ever been infected with anything. A good firewall, proper updated anti-virus and consistent patching, a real browser (= not MSIE) plus obligatory use of NoScript and AdBlock, have kept my machines clean over the years. It's really not that hard.

      I'd venture out to say that some users are just too naive or dumb to be allowed on the Internet. I've seen countless of installations where dozens of toolbars take up 90% of the available browser-space and yet the user still installs more when some stupid ad or 'free'ware program offers it. The user simply believes everything on the screen and think every offer is a gift. Such users are completely impossible to train, no matter what. And they are abundant out there.

      Most users are not quite that stupid; most have some common sense (which isn't exactly common) but will still fall for some tricks. These users cannot be trained either but should be restricted in what they can do. Trojans that open a reverse shell or similar are very common and they rely on these users to be tricked into installing the trojan. These users often sit behind firewalls that usually will protect them against connections from the outside, but not from other machines on the local network and not against evil stuff on their machines connecting outwards. So one wrong click and the hacker owns the LAN and soon all the machines on it.

      So picking the right kind of people and having a secure setup will go a long way. And this kind of users rarely need long expensive training; they just need to be informed and then they'll do the right thing. Even if they do make a mistake it won't matter much - maybe a workstation needs re-installing at worst, and that can be a simple thing, provided the setup is right and proper backups exists.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    54. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ROTFL! Not wearing your seatbelt when air bags are in place is a recipe for a very bad day in the event of a collision at any speed. The air bags are counting on the delay from the seatbelt. If you slam into the air bag compartment before it explodes, you will not enjoy the results when it opens in direct contact with your body.

    55. Re:Obligatory car analogy by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      What's so fun about driving? That's like saying a Roomba takes the fun out of sweeping the floor.

      Ever drive a 400 horsepower car? It's not for everyone, but I like to just go out and drive around. When I get somewhere, I'm always a little disappointed because I have to stop driving. I love driving; it's fun.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    56. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Say the average cost of a security incident is 1,000,000. The average HR cost (not just salary) of a typical organization is $80,000 (actually more, but let's go with this). The amount of hours these individuals work is roughly 2080 hours less 80 for vacation, 80 for corporate holidays, sick time, etc. so you're looking at around 1800 hours per year. So the hourly cost of an employee average is $44. For a 25,000 employee organization to sit through an hour of training every year, the cost is over 1,000,000.

      So no, compared to the cost of cleaning up an incident, it's NOT small. And as another poster pointed out, just because they went through the training doesn't mean it A) stuck and B) guarantees no incidents.

    57. Re:Obligatory car analogy by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      sorry I disagree, bad analogy. I can open the engine compartment of my car, do mods on the engine if I want. Many computer systems and virtually all software you cannot open. As EFF says, "If you can't open it, you don't own it." I avoid crashes by paying attention to my driving, I avoid computer crashes with important systems by not connecting them to the internet. Really, I have an XP that has been running for years without ***crashing*** but I have another I use for the internet (it crashes frequently).

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    58. Re:Obligatory car analogy by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Take it to the race track where you can use those 400 horses. You realize that it's not horsepower that puts you back in your seat, but torque? There's no way to use 400 horses on a public highway.

    59. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just users - developers fail at security, too. Application security needs to be addressed at a lower level. Yes, there will always be ways to screw up security, deliberately or otherwise. That doesn't mean it's not worth the effort to build protections into the system.

      The systems we're building are increasingly responsible for keeping the world around us operating. Fixing the security problems plaguing the software industry is critical. The underlying framework for application development should be made as secure as we can, because trying to educate developers to use insecure tools in a secure fashion has absolutely failed.

    60. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Bigby · · Score: 1

      The analogy would be to design vehicles where it is not possible for a driver to decide to drive into a tree. That would mean the driver shouldn't even have that decision as an option.

      In the case of a car, you change the whole concept. You could chop down all trees as one solution. Or you can make it impossible to drive "off road". Then you are in the realm of rail-like vehicles. Then there is the issue of falling off the rail. That can be addressed with roller-coaster like locking onto the rail...or automatic speed limits on turns.

      This could go on and on and on...but the point has been made. It is true that there should be no reason why we need seat belts. And it is true that they are an invention because of the lack of safety design.

    61. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      How about letting the user decide? You may choose: Locked down device and implied security, OR open device and take fuckin' responsibility for your actions!

      Either is fine by me. If you sold me a locked down device that can only run software you waved the dead chicken over, then YOU and ONLY YOU take blame if anything happens and YOU and ONLY YOU will pay for any damage caused by it. You sold me this device as safe and sane under the pretense that I cannot even do anything that could cause harm, so YOU and ONLY YOU are at fault.

      Or I opt to get an open device that I decide what to run on, how and when. Then I, and ONLY I, have to take care that this device causes no harm and I and ONLY I am responsible for the damage if it does.

      In a nutshell, he who gets the power also gets to carry the burden of responsibility.

      The problem is, both sides of that game want their cake and eat it too. Apple et al want to lock down our devices so we can only run what they deem "appropriate", but if their approval process lets a trojan slip, you're on your own. And in turn you have people crying for jailbreaks on everything but if they manage to fuck it up royally they whine how they were supposed to know that this cute dancing_bunnies app could cause damage.

      If you want power, take responsibility for it. That goes for both sides of this argument.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    62. Re:Obligatory car analogy by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      Well actually... yes.

      We should be designing cars that don't require the user to belt themselves in... maybe the car automatically belts you in?

      We should be building cars with the technology that avoids crashing into a tree at 100 kph...collision avoidance systems are starting to become a reality BTW.

      Now in the case of a car, we can arguably say that the technology has not been there YET to make sure driving is safe and thus we must rely on humans to be trained properly. In 100 years time (probably earlier) when we have computers capable of self-driving, we will probably prefer to focus on automatic driving systems, instead of improving human driving ability.

      In the case of the computer, it is not a matter of technology and more a matter of implementation and organization that makes the web insecure. Poor programming practice, lack of standards, varying browser ability, lack of rule of law regarding storage of user data...

      Money would be much better spend education developers, law makers... on security and rightfully so.

    63. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Lazy bums aside, employees are most concerned with getting their work done. Security is usually one of the things that gets in the way of this. I'm often appalled by the way quite a few companies handle security (I tend to see more than my fair share being a security consultant), it often seems they have some CISO who needs to build a monument for himself, showing off how much he works by making sure EVERYONE knows about it by the sheer number of hoops that they have to jump through. That's how you get amazingly stupid setups for passwords like "at least 12 characters, no 3 characters of the alphabet in consecutive order, at least 2 numbers not at start or end and not next to each other with at least 2 special characters ....yaddayadda".

      If you see anything like this, start flipping keyboards and count the ones that contain post-it notes with the passwords du jour (because of course they need to change every other nanosecond, too).

      This has nothing to do with security, people, this is what I dubbed "Monkey Island Security". You remember Monkey Island? Where Guybrush gets jailed by those cannibals and they start putting up more and more elaborate doors every time you escape through the wall? That's what some do in IT security, we get more and more elaborate and time consuming hoops our employees get to jump through while those that want to bypass security can easily ignore that because the problem lies elsewhere.

      NO, and I mean ZERO, security breeches that I have been aware of in the last two decades can be traced to password guessing. It is amazing, though, how more and more breeches that can be blamed on personnel blunders can eventually be traced to them trying to cope (yes, cope) with security. Post-its containing passwords. Security measures unhinged or bypassed by employees because it actually kept them from doing their work. And so on, so forth.

      Security does NOT mean annoying your employees. Perfect security would actually be nearly invisible to your employees. Because that would also include them not being part of the security system, hence, not being able to fuck it up!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    64. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a 25,000 employee organization to sit through an hour of training every year, the cost is over 1,000,000.

      Not if you make it a lunch meeting. The employees weren't gonna work during that hour anyway. So instead of being out $44 per employee, you're out the cost of lunch per employee, which is significantly less.

      Unless you're one of those jerk-wads that expects employees to work during their lunch.

    65. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have been in IT since before the first virus or worm. I have been exchanging emails for several decades. I've pirated PC-games and downloaded cracks and keygens. I've used (among others) Windows since version 3.11 daily. I websurf for several hours each day, often venturing deep into black hat territory, but I have never ever been infected with anything.

      That you know of. Antivirus software only catches the known stuff. Unless you're running your keygens on a throwaway machine (one you constantly reinstall the OS on), you've probably gotten malware at some point.

    66. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      When I was responsible for application development security a while ago, one of the first things I made sure of was that our users knew that I would not be pissed at them but HAPPY if they manage to fuck the system up somehow. Because they should not be able to, them being able to fuck it up accidentally meant that someone could fuck it up deliberately at least as easily.

      Never blame the user for fucking something up. It is not his job to use your tool correctly, it is your job to create a tool he cannot use incorrectly.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    67. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Solving social problem through purely technological means is doomed to failure.

      I suppose being a "guru" makes one too spiritual to understand that.

    68. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And this is exactly what Bruce meant here. The developer should be trained to identify where a user mistake can happen that results in confidentiality, integrity or availability problems and put safeguards against it in his application.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    69. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, since the training is work - you're the jerk-wad making them work through lunch!

    70. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love driving; it's fun.

      I love riding horses. That doesn't make me want to commute to work or go grocery shopping with them.

      Your 400 horsepower car is not a practical vehicle for transportation in a world with self-driving cars. It's just a toy, like my horses. There will come a day when the rest of the population no longer wishes to subsidize your entertainment and kicks you off the public roads. You will need to find a private place to play with your toys, just like me. If you haven't saved your pennies to be able to afford a private playpen (or if you are to daft to see which way the wind is blowing), you will be very unhappy.

    71. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Driving a car is a far more focused task, with more salient dangers. Even without safety training people understand that driving erratically, or at high speeds can be dangerous.

      You're OBVIOUSLY not from California...

    72. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, someone on Slashdot who isn't aware of Bruce Schneier.

      I'm imagining you doing air quotes when you say "security guru Bruce Schneier", which would be like doing the same for "movie director Steven Spielberg" or "operating system programmer Linus Torvalds".

    73. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Ok, now it gets ridiculous. 'though some of those are really witty.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    74. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      No. But I'd dismantle it and sell the parts.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    75. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      In other words, computers would be heaps safer if you could kill people with them.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    76. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And that's exactly what's wrong with security these days. It seems to me CISOs think that everyone thinks they're lazy if they don't put up as many obstacles for productivity as possible. And that's actually about the WORST thing they can do.

      Security is perfect when it does not bother you, actually more, it is perfect if you do not even notice that it's there. Because if you don't notice it, as a user, you are not one of the parts that are necessary to its function, and that means you are no longer an item that can (intentionally or accidentally) fuck it up.

      Why you would deliberately go out of your way to mess up your company's security? For exactly this reason, it gets in your way. And I don't even mean that you can't access your beloved Facebook account or check whether someone added some lolcats to your favorite collection page, I mean that security in some companies is so fucked up that it keeps people from doing their work. An example. A company that shall remain nameless here (those subject to its horrors know what I'm talking about) has some ridiculous restrictions that appear quite sane at first glance. No downloading of executable code, no executable code in attachments, etc. Appears sane, until you notice that one of their developers needs to update his dev suite on a nearly daily base and it HAS to run the latest version due to contract requirements. Now, since it is not a standard software bit, IT cannot be assed to handle the issue (yes, they have internal contracts with their own IT and that contract says nothing about babysitting updates that are not part of the standard office software package).

      What did the dev do? The only thing he COULD actually do in such an environment, he broke through his own company's security. Which wasn't that hard, because they had more an eye on bureaucracy than security, but that's a different matter.

      That's a prime example where users have to fight the security system of their own company, not out of malice or spite, or because they want to slack, but simply because they want to WORK.

      And that's what's insane in itsec these days.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    77. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Or finally write a virus that fries the dork clicking on the dancing piggy.

      God, how I wish for the computers they have in Star Trek. The slightest thing going wrong and the thing blows up in your face...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    78. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      While we're at bad analogies, passwords are much like the locks on your car's door. Sure, they keep any idiot out, unless he knows how to work a coat hanger...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    79. Re:Obligatory car analogy by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      And you would trust THIS government, the same ones that refused to arrest the AG for pulling a false flag that got Americans killed, you are gonna trust THESE clowns with who is allowed to use the net and computers and who is not? FUCK THAT BULLSHIT I'd take a million infected boxes over giving our government who already dreams of jack booted big bro bullshit that kind of power. never ever even fucking joke about giving these clowns that kind of power, EVAR.

      I would be saying the same thing about that corporate lackey Dubya BTW, the net is one of the last places where we can have true freedom of expression, no fucking way would I let the government decide who can and who can't be here, because if you think political correctness sucks now, you should see it after they get done. The final test would end up with more questions about whether you kiss the ring than whether you know WTF an antivirus is, oh fuck no.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    80. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Chas · · Score: 1

      Okay, say the average cost of a security incident is a million bucks.

      And I'm not sure where you're getting an average hourly wage of $44 from, but even with your $44/hour average is

      http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/best-companies/2012/pay/hourly.html.

      Median for the top 88 companies with the best pay is $54,300 a year.

      For the mathematically challenged, that's $26.11 an hour.

      And HR costs are NOWHERE near 70% of salary (try 40%, though it's actually inversely proportional to a higher salary).

      $36.55 * 25K = 913,850

      And that's assuming all employees are primarily trained in a single year, and an entire hour for training upkeep is required of each employee every year after that or that ongoing forms of employee awareness training will cost a similar amount.

      AND it also assumes that the company is kept to a single incident in a year.

      If number of incidents is anything exceeding 1...

      Simply investing in a technological solution and hoping it'll magically solve all your security issues is lazy and stupid. Worse, it means you've started believing the line of bullshit your vendors are feeding you.

      Security is not a "product". It's a process. And the stronger each link in that process chain is, the harder it'll be to breach it.
      Security hardware isn't the be all and end all.
      Security software isn't the be all and end all.
      Security personnel aren't the be all and end all.
      Security testing isn't the be all and end all.
      Security policies aren't the be all and end all.
      Security processes aren't the be all and end all.
      Employee education (and ongoing awareness raising) is not the be all and end all.

      All of them should be working together in lock-step or you have a vulnerable point someplace. And someone WILL figure out how to exploit it.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    81. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      AG for pulling a false flag that got Americans killed

      Add that to Snopes. If you consider Snopes to have liberal bias, then create a conservative equivalent.

      Also, I never mentioned requiring the government to enforce computer use. It's more than trivial to have industry do it instead.

    82. Re:Obligatory car analogy by jewens · · Score: 2
      That's a great idea for an app. Got a few wrinkles in your suit and have that big meeting in 15 minutes. Just download the iRon app to your phone, max out your processor for a few minutes and get to it.

      PS: Sorry, I know your original idea was for an Android, but the "iRon" joke works better on Apple. Maybe someone in the FOSS community can whip up an open source version for you.

      --
      That group of bovine standing over there appears quite portentous. That's right it's an ominous cow herd.
    83. Re:Obligatory car analogy by JustOK · · Score: 1

      I was thinking of the series 4000

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    84. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Byrel · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure this is a reference to the Vagaari in Outbound Flight.

      Make it a nonalcoholic virtual beer. :P

    85. Re:Obligatory car analogy by robcozzens · · Score: 1

      A lot of car safety engineering IS designing the car so that the passengers will survive an accident. Car manufacturers are not relying on drivers being safe to claim that their cars are safe.

    86. Re:Obligatory car analogy by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      There is indeed often a tradeoff between security and utility, and sometimes increased security incents people to bypass rather that comply. The trick is to meet both goals at the same time -- sometimes that's possible and sometimes it isn't. But in the end, like sensitivity / ethics training, security training isn't really about reducing the incidence of events -- it's about CYA on the company's part, so if there's a situation they can hold the employee accountable rather than having him/her weasel out with a "oh gee I didn't know" defense.

    87. Re:Obligatory car analogy by lgw · · Score: 1, Redundant

      To put all of the above simply: effective security is the ratio "how hard is it for an attacker to gain access" / "how hard is it for the authorized user to gain access".

      Anything you do that makes it harder on the authorized user reduces security in practice, and is only good if it causes a disproportional difficulty for the attacker. Or, in physical security terms "any locked door between where your employees work and the smoking area will be propped open - design around that".

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    88. Re:Obligatory car analogy by lgw · · Score: 1

      You've missed Bruce's entire point. If you're trying to drive from point A to point B, hitting a tree along the way is a serious inconvenience. Users avoid inconvenience. Driving reasonably safely helps you get the job done. "Safe computing" is a hindrance to getting the job done. That is why user security training is pointless.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    89. Re:Obligatory car analogy by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      What the fuck do you think industry is dude? Its the same fucking thing now, we have 4 lobbyists for every member of congress, you got corps writing laws and just handing them to the congress critters, hell look at how quickly the entire MSM tripped over themselves to change the conversation from the actual DATA that Wikileaks had to "Is Assange an asshole?" because God fucking forbid they do anything to hurt mommy government, after all the same companies that own big media own the defense industry.

      From SOPA/PIPA to AT&T making backrooms for the NSA you see industry and government working hand in glove together to maintain the status quo and gain more control over the people, this is why I have argued against dumb laws for ages because governments NEVER get more free only LESS free and once you get a bullshit law passed good fucking luck getting rid of it. Remember how laws like PATRIOT were ONLY supposed to be used against foreign terrorists and ended up being used against groups like occupy? Well what do you think would happen if you gave corps and by extension the government the right to ban free speech on the net?

      And fuck Snopes, somebody creates a website and says "this is true, this is not" and we are supposed to believe them? Fuck that, I tust them about as much as Wikipedia, IE none. All I need is the fact several feds testified that it was a false flag op, if the guys actually implementing the order think its a false flag? Its a false flag. And remember this is the same government that murdered 56,000 of your fellow Americans for a false flag called the Gulf Of Tonkin Incident which whoops, never happened, so trust these clowns? When hell freezes over. If they put on trial those that had previously lied, like Bush and his aides showing the obviously faked yellowcake docs? Then maybe, but right now if they said it was raining I'd want a second opinion.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    90. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buckling up when we get into the car is a single simple thing to do at a specified time, and it's easy to make it a habit, particularly when the car automatically reminds me. I'm not thinking of comparable computer security actions; even updating regularly is harder to remember than that. It's much, much harder to convince somebody to deliberately drive into a tree than to convince them to install a dancing pigs program, and auto manufacturers do include technological measures to reduce the chance of somebody accidentally slamming into trees. Moreover, if you talk one car user into unbuckling and driving head-on into a tree, you've taken out one car and driver. If you get one computer user downloading the free "virus checker", you get entry to a corporate LAN.

      Sorry, but this analogy just doesn't work.

    91. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      That is true, although most cases of unsafe computing I'm aware of involve being actively unsafe. These are on par with the "ILOVEYOU" virus, which is easily avoided by not running the virus (i.e. driving into a tree).

      The form of safe computing that slows down users is different. Those are annoying even for me, especially when they demand my randomly generated password must contain a capital letter, a number, and punctuation (or can't contain those - depending on the system). While blocking the world's most common passwords is fine, crazy "safe computing" stuff should be nuked from orbit.

    92. Re:Obligatory car analogy by sjames · · Score: 1

      One might think so, but in practice, the air bag itself can severely injure you if you aren't wearing a seat belt when it goes off, even in low speed collisions where you would have been OK otherwise.

    93. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      They know. That's actually part of the problem. The employees know that they do "something wrong" when breaking your security, but at the same time they do not feel bad about it because they don't do it for personal gains but for the "good of the company" when they break past your security protocols to get more work done.

      Of course, there are cases where you cannot avoid "standing in their way" with security. Such cases must just be rare and they may not be road blocks. Sadly I have to say a lot of those cases where people break their own company's security stem from laziness on the ITSEC part. It is after all easier to simply block all downloads than to limit it to the necessities and decide on a per-case base. And it is of course easier to just disallow attachments in mails than to create rules who may receive what.

      I'm not a big fan of CYA tactics. I've written my share of CYA papers in the past. They don't solve a problem. They just make sure that my ass isn't on the line when (not if, WHEN) the fuckup occurs. That's no way to handle security.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    94. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      This is a pretty good physical example, I'd like to ask for permission to use it in my next paper.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    95. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with Mr S, and have made it my mission these last two years to work more and better security and passwords into my online presence. I use randomly generated passwords kept in a secured/encrypted password locker that I keep in my USB flashdrive. I have a backup of that drive in another external drive. I use two factor authentication for my google accounts and have created security question answers that are wrong, and just wrong enough that I can remember the wrong answer with the question prompting me for the right answer which triggers my memory of the wrong answer, which is the correct one.
      I have slowly over that time moved my wife and son to the same system by getting it right for myself and then moving them on to it. It was a bit of a long and sometimes tedious trip, but it worked and now we use simple firewall rules (rather than trying to manage a PITA firewall, which i tried and hated), free and unblocked internet use as well as a sense of security (for my wife and son, i am still paranoid, it's my job) as they crash and bash their way around the interwebs.
      Yes, I use AVs on everything, we run Fedora 18 on all 4 computers (including a media server), and have double redundant backup. All this will be seen by some as useless or foolish, but it works for us. I'm not telling everything I'm doing, but it should be clear that i try to cover most of the bases. The nice thing, for me, is that it costs almost no time at this point. Everything is automated. The users all find that a random passwd generator actually helps them and the passwd locker makes it simple to keep up with everything. I run a backup once a day on the main file server, once a week on the media server and once a month on the other two computers, just for the home folders. Compared to what I had to go through with both Win and Mac life is very good.

    96. Re:Obligatory car analogy by lgw · · Score: 1

      Sure, especially if it's a paper on the importance of closing HTML tags.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    97. Re:Obligatory car analogy by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Didn't even notice, it was important enough to warrant the bold tag for the whole deal.

      Thanks, I'll make sure to give credit (even though it will just be for "Igw from /." :).

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    98. Re:Obligatory car analogy by jschottm · · Score: 1

      NO, and I mean ZERO, security breeches that I have been aware of in the last two decades can be traced to password guessing.

      I really hope you don't work for any company I'm affiliated with.

      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/07/twitter_hack_explained/
      http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/twitter-hacked-again--with-a-guessed-password-1748730.html

      Guessed passwords are used every day to get a foothold into servers and applications.

      Weak passwords are very problematic. One of the first things that an attacker is going to do if they can get access to the password hashes is run them through JtR or the like. You do know that password hasehs under a certain length in non-AD Windows aren't salted and can more or less instantly be cracked using rainbow tables, right?

      But users do have problems with long and complex passwords which is part of why two factor authentication is increasingly important.

  2. Well, duh.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Users can screw up because they are just as human as you. So live with it. Design around it. Make it safe regardless.

    I've only been saying that since, mwah, 1999 or so.

    Policies are OK, but rules that assume perfect compliance to work are really only there to cloak the failure of engineering in some fault tolerance in system architecture and user UI design. Glad someone finally caught on..

    1. Re:Well, duh.. by 3.5+stripes · · Score: 1

      Sure, humans can screw up, can't the people engineering make mistakes as well?

      Most software designers don't leave security holes in their software by design, one would hope.

      --


      He tried to kill me with a forklift!
    2. Re:Well, duh.. by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      I've only been saying that since, mwah, 1999 or so.

      1999? That was only the day before yesterday. Get off my lawn, whappersnipper. ;)

    3. Re:Well, duh.. by ATMAvatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They don't intentionally do so, sure. However, most software designers are not trained to develop secure software, are not paid to develop secure software, and in fact, would probably get a heated talking-to by management if they spent the extra time to make their software secure without explicit instructions to do so.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    4. Re:Well, duh.. by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      Active-X?

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
  3. Obligatory quote by Krneki · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

    --
    Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    1. Re:Obligatory quote by gblackwo · · Score: 2

      -Douglas Adams (And I do not believe the original quote was past tense)

    2. Re:Obligatory quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Security awareness = nerd religion

    3. Re:Obligatory quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I fought the fool, and the fool won!

    4. Re:Obligatory quote by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      Good old Douglass Adams! What's to stop some idiot who we now force into using a strong password from writing it on a PostIt note and sticking it to a monitor!

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    5. Re:Obligatory quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Way back in the very early days of computing we had written a simple accounting program for the family business (early 80's). It was a simple general ledger program with the ability to print checks. The office secretary would get frustrated when the program wouldn't let her write checks due to insufficient funds so she would make fake deposits in the program so that it would let her write checks. As dumb as that was, she didn't even make the fake deposits distinguishable from real deposits so when she forgot to clear them out there was no way to tell what was real and what wasn't without manual reconciliation with bank records. Her motivation was pay, of course. She was supposed to be paid $X per year, so she cut herself a check every two weeks for a half-month's pay. The reason she would run into a problem with insufficient balances was because she was paying herself every two weeks when it should have been semi-monthly. We couldn't explain to her the difference between the two.

      In short: people are stupid and training won't change that.

    6. Re:Obligatory quote by mianne · · Score: 2

      Yes, but many corporate networks *still* require a user to enter a password containing alpha, numeral, and special characters, and have the passwords expire after 2-3 months. Eventually, the users get the beat down by the boss or IT about writing it on a post-it stuck on their monitor. IT therefore has successfully trained most users to write down passwords in a notebook or a desk calendar. Indeed! The users have grokked the corporate mantra toward information security: Security through Obscurity.

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  4. Invalid comparison by Aethedor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He's comparing security with health and driving to 'prove his point'. Security is not the same as health or driving. So, any conclusion from making a comparison is a false one.

    Second, you don't have to choose between completely ignoring security awareness training and spending lots and lots of money and time in it. There is a very good choice somewhere in between. I agree with him that the information systems have to be secure and shouldn't offer dangerous actions but no matter how secure you make your information system, it will all fail if the user has no clue about what he or she is doing. And giving empolyees a basis level of security awareness doesn't have to cost a lot of money but will still help you prevent a lot of trouble.

    --
    It doesn't have to be like this. All we need to do is make sure we keep talking.
  5. I totally agree with Bruce here by tlambert · · Score: 2

    I totally agree with Bruce here

    We should be designing systems that won't let users choose lousy passwords

    It reduces the search space I have to look at in order to brute force things, and that's a good thing...

    1. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by iapetus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sorry, but your approach is inefficient. Since the system now requires users to choose passwords that aren't memorable (and probably to change them regularly as well) a large number of them will have them written down on post-it notes stuck to their monitors. That reduces the search space even more. :D

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      ++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
      Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
    2. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Loki_666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Damn my lack of mod points today. +1

      Force users to chose complex passwords they write them down or learn what the minimum requirement is and create something stupidly simple anyway. Or they constantly forget their complex passwords and are bugging the admins to reset their passwords every 5 mins. Final variant is they use the same complex password for all systems. So, its fairly secure from brute force or random guessing, but once a hacker has one password, he has them all... one password to rule them all etc.

      I've used systems with ridiculous requirements where i've not been able to remember 1 hour later what the hell i used. Something like requiring at least one capital, one number, one punctuation mark, no more than 2 consecutive characters, and no less than 12 characters. I ended up with something like this: Aabbaabbaabb1!

    3. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Since the system now requires users to choose passwords that aren't memorable

      Not really. There are lots of ways of constructing a strong password while still making it memorable. For instance, one can take one of the (arguably) most memorable opening lines in a novel:

      It was the afternoon of my eighty-first birthday, and I was in bed with my catamite when Ali announced that the archbishop had come to see me.
      (
      Anthony Burgess, Earthly Powers)

      ...and use that as Iwt4om81stb,aIwibwmcwAattahc2cm.

      This is not one of my passwords, and it does seem pretty cumbersome, but I just pulled it out for effect. If any computer is sufficiently literary to deduce that password, it well and truly deserves the privilege of accessing my data.

    4. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by invid · · Score: 1

      Obligatory xkcd.

      --
      The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
    5. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by TheAlgebraist · · Score: 1

      I have one service that doesn't allow dictionary words of 3 or more characters anywhere in the password along with requiring numbers/symbols. Your password would probably not be allowed as "baa" is the sound that sheeps make.

    6. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by TheAlgebraist · · Score: 1

      Or even better: Allow the whole sentence. Give people 128 characters for their passwords and they can craft lots of memorable secure passwords. What really gets me is when I am required to have an ungodly complex password but limits it to 8 or 12 characters. There are hardly any valid passwords left if you force a number, punctuation, lowercase, and uppercase, and disallow dictionary words and runs of numbers.

    7. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by delt0r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And for many people this is more secure. Instead of any script kiddie with a laptop breaking into your email account from anywhere in the world. They have to break into your office first. For 99.99% of us this is not a credible threat.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    8. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by iapetus · · Score: 1

      That would be the 99.99% of us whose offices are never cleaned, have no windows, and have rigorous security preventing anyone who isn't cleared from entering the building?

      --
      ++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
      Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
    9. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by delt0r · · Score: 1

      So in this threat model where they can read stuff off/in your desk, but won't say steal your wallet or computer or whatever? Or read your trash? Also a few cleaners is a *lot* less people than the entire connected internet. Also they are not known for their hacker skills.

      Consider the threat model. Written down passwords are better for many people. Even BS says so. So it must be true.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    10. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > they write them down or learn what the minimum requirement is and create something stupidly simple anyway

      This is a problem when the users 'cheat sheet' is physically available, e.g. to a coworker.

      It still solves the [I argue larger] problem of remote attackers having to crack a complex password. Even your example of Aabbaabbaabb1! is not obvious to an attacker and not easily cracked.

    11. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by saltire+sable · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure Bruce Schneier writes down his complex passwords. He keeps them in his wallet, with his credit cards.

      I think he also uses this in combination with KeePass, which is a "one password to rule them all" type strategy.

    12. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by mianne · · Score: 1

      And a hacker would never, ever be able to bribe an undocumented janitor with a C-Note, 6-pack, and/or weed to take pictures of any monitor with a post it note stuck to it. It'd be positively unthinkable for a worker to take note of co-workers passwords in hopes of wreaking havoc should they be terminated...

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    13. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Bigby · · Score: 1

      Now remember 50 phrases from 50 memorable novels and make sure you pick the right one for the right system.

    14. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      It still solves the [I argue larger] problem of remote attackers having to crack a complex password. Even your example of Aabbaabbaabb1! is not obvious to an attacker and not easily cracked.

      Not at all. These days, you have to assume that your connection to the Internet is compromised, and so is the computer that you're using to connect. Odds are good that a remote attacker has already installed a keylogger on your machine and doesn't need to crack the password. Any real security absolutely requires a robust two-factor scheme in which one of the factors has no Internet connection, in which a new authentication token must be generated for each potentially dangerous operation (e.g. associating a new bank account for money transfers), and in which that second factor communicates over a very simple, but secure protocol (no side channels, simple data format, protected by PK crypto, etc.) so that the device cannot readily be compromised, but can present enough information so that the user can adequately determine that the operation should be allowed.

      For example, you might have a USB dongle that communicates using a simple shared buffer, and each request for authentication is signed by the company's servers, and is verified by the USB dongle. It then displays the text of the message (if the signature passes) to tell the user what he/she is agreeing to, and if the user chooses "Agree", then it provides a one-time-use token back to the computer so that it can pass it back to the company's servers, which then verify the signature on that token.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    15. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by CCarrot · · Score: 2

      This is typically sufficient.

      Create a random, nonsense but memorable phrase composed of *gasp* dictionary words, pepper a couple of punctuation marks if you like (is a space considered punctuation for password verification? IDK) and vary the capitalization if that's one of the requirements for password verification. e.g., "correct, horse...battery staPLE!" I'm sure as you read that, the associated verbal emphasis is resounding in your cranium, making it easy to remember where the punctuation and capitals go, while making it very difficult for an attacker to brute force even with a dictionary attack.

      Trouble is, there are too many crap password verification systems that either don't allow spaces, or don't allow passwords longer than, say, 12 characters. If you are artificially restricted to such a ridiculous degree, then it becomes incredibly hard to fashion a password that is both easy to remember, but hard for others to guess. In that case I will keep in mind your method, it may come in handy, thanks!

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    16. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      Or even better: Allow the whole sentence. Give people 128 characters for their passwords and they can craft lots of memorable secure passwords. What really gets me is when I am required to have an ungodly complex password but limits it to 8 or 12 characters. There are hardly any valid passwords left if you force a number, punctuation, lowercase, and uppercase, and disallow dictionary words and runs of numbers.

      This! You know, the bank I used to use had something even more ridiculous: online passwords had to be exactly 6 characters or numbers, and they basically corresponded to the letters or numbers on a phone keypad, so your online and phone banking password were the same. So I could use 'tarzan' as my online password, but a hacker only has to guess '827926', or even 'vaswam' and they had an equivalent 'password'.

      They said they used other forms of verification, such as trying to log in from a strange IP would generate a further challenge question that the user had to answer to proceed, etc., but I wasn't buying it. Their other methods are probably effective enough, since I haven't heard anything in the news regarding wide scale security breaches, but there is no reason why they couldn't have implemented those additional measures in combination with a secure password policy. I let them know exactly why I was transferring my business as I was moving my accounts, so it could be that they've changed their policies since then *shrugs*. Don't know, don't care, that one boneheaded decision was enough to lose this customer's trust.

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    17. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Definition of "lousy" isn't just abcde12345. r%ndLsaqQ$_'ra is just as bad a password (and not just because that % and ' might fuck up your unsanitized database input) because it's freakin' IMPOSSIBLE to remember that. So what do people do? Write it down, of course.

      What I did for the longest time was to use the serial numbers of various items as the password of the month. They usually conveniently include letters, numbers, a few dashes and slashes, it's all there. All I needed to remember was which tool contained my password. And since that sticker was there anyway, it wasn't obvious for someone looking for my "password post-it" either, even if using an item that was sitting there on my desk. Of course, now that it is known that I did that, this method certainly isn't even remotely secure anymore (it never was really secure in the first place, but then, someone getting into my office without me knowing would already have constituted a severe security breech, so...).

      The point is, that everyone who is subject to password rules that rule out password you could possibly memorize will resort to something like this, some techniques being more "clever" than others, but one thing is certain: Such passwords will ALWAYS only be usable by people when written down.

      All this accomplishes is shifting the security paradigm from "what you know" to "what you have". Neither is really a solution for the problem at hand. I essentially did the same thing, just that I didn't need to write down the serial number of an item because it was already there.

      The solution certainly isn't more harebrained, ridiculous password requirements. If you are at the point where you require passwords nobody can remember, a change of paradigm is in order.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      From my experience, post-it notes are a much bigger threat to security than "weak" passwords. I do not know of a single documented case in the last 1-2 decades where a security breach was due to some hacker sitting down and going password guessing. First of all, the usual standard procedure is already a "three strikes and you're out" rule for login attempts. That's pretty much the basic standard and ALL companies I did a security audit for so far had this or a similar rule in effect. ALL of them. So unless you somehow get a list of the password hashes for offline cracking, even any combination of four digits is already a very good shield against this. For reference, ask ATMs. I would be very surprised if ATM code guessing was a viable way to get some money out of stolen ATM cards.

      And if an attacker somehow gains access to the pass hashes, you have much bigger security problems than the question whether your users use passwords with more than 8 letters.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    19. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure he does not.

      I'd say writing down the encrypted version and decrypting it in his head is more his style. :) But jokes aside, I'd guess he uses more secure methods than passwords.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    20. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      This reminds me of the only time I saw a Bible put to good use. One of my former bosses used it as a source for his passwords. He had a calender with Bible quotes hanging on the wall. We thought he's religious, then we found out he was an atheist. But it sure was a good source for passwords. Depending on the month, take the first, second, third... letter of every word, string them together, throw in the numbers from the quote index and presto, instant password that satisfies the security requirements.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    21. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Anyone know the copyright handling of xkcd? I'd like to use that as a slide for my next presentation.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    22. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Actually, the threat is bigger than any script kiddy.

      The guards against outside intruders are usually pretty good. At the very least, every company I audited so far had something like a "three strikes law" in effect on their logins. 3 failed logins and you were out. The more security conscious of them went to even greater efforts and had a system in place where repeated "three strikes" would set off an alarm with their IT security (two "people" failing their three login attempts in short order is quite a dead giveaway of a break in attempt). So the chances of you actually getting past the security with brute force is practically zero by now.

      On the other hands, a lot of people meet their customers or business partners in their office, because office space is scarce and meeting rooms often overbooked. And few are so important that they have their very own representation space, so whoever you invite will almost invariably get a peek at your PC. And these people are usually also the ones that are actually interested in what files they could swipe. You think your customer wouldn't be interested in your internal price calculation to check how far he can press on the price before you have to crack, no matter how many "last offers" you make him?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    23. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by saltire+sable · · Score: 1

      http://www.schneier.com/news-101.html
      http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/06/write_down_your.html

      But yes, when he writes them down he encrypts it through Blowfish on the fly. And his wallet doesn't open without a 65536-bit key.

    24. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen my office cleaners, and I'm pretty sure they're not hackers.

      If you want to look through the windows, you're going to have to be about 40' off the ground to start with, and then you'll have to deal with reflections from the glass and the contrast inside between the lit screen and the dark post-it note below.

      As for rigorous security - well yeah, it's not too hard to get through the door downstairs, and I guess you can wear something over your head to avoid the surveillance cameras when you enter the office - but seriously, we're already talking a lot more effort than sitting in your basement in Nairobi or somewhere and running a few downloaded scripts.

      No security is airtight, but a reasonable goal is not to be the lowest-hanging fruit. That is, make sure that there's someone else the bad guys could hit, for greater profit, with less effort.

    25. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by iapetus · · Score: 1

      Can't encourage that sort of thing, though - it would be security awareness training. And we know *that's* a waste of time.

      --
      ++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
      Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
    26. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that describes my old office at the Air Force Research Lab. Especially the part about never being cleaned. The only viruses we got were brought in by the managers on a disk.

      Of course we had CAC cards, combined with the password-you-have-to-write-on-a-sticky. Negating that, was the requirement to use Windows instead of Linux.

    27. Re:I totally agree with Bruce here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also agree with Bruce. The only problem is convincing management that turning on such features is needed. The last place I worked I had a running problem with the IT manager and the Infrastructure team lead who both thought users were too stupid to remember secure passwords, and they decided that on a weekend that we were cutting over to a new system that the users should be able to come in on the following Monday and just type in their username and not need a password. And when they did eventually have to chose a password that it be allowed to contain just letters (like an 8 character word), and not have to include numbers or capital letters of a non-alpha-numeric character. They refused to believe that this was insecure. I tried explaining that someone could come in very early on the Monday and login as the HR manager or payroll and get access to all the information regarding peoples pay rates an other personal data. They didn't see it that way as they couldn't fathom an 'internal threat' like that. Anyway, they solved the problem by getting rid of me. (Went on holiday, returned to find someone else sitting in my chair, my job title got changed to something I'd never seen before and I was made redundant as they didn't need someone doing whatever that job title was). I keep hoping they get hacked for their stupidity, but they'd probably find someway to blame someone else (which was their standard operating procedure).

  6. Tick the box exercise for auditors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Security Awareness training is a tick the box exercise most companies do to get auditors off their back.

    Apparently, users are supposed to be "trained to recognise phishing emails and other Internet frauds". IT has enough trouble these days trying to recognise them, and somehow our ordinary users are supposed to recognise them too?

    Users have to be "trained to pick good passwords". This should be system designed to prevent users from picking bad passwords in the first place.

    Users should be advised to "pick strong passwords and change them regularly". Two contradictory statements, no-one can remember a new complex password that changes regularly unless they write it down. Oh, users should be told "not to write down passwords".

    Awareness training is pushed because there are a number of so-called "security consultants" who have no real technical skills, yet have made a living pushing this snakeoil. They unfortunately are also good self-promoters and have the ear of regulators and auditors.

    If you are relying on security awareness to protect your infrastructure, you're screwed. Most users don't care, and even those who do care cannot possibly be expected to remain aware of the myriad of threats that exist. Often, their attempts to remain secure achieve the opposite purpose ("I heard you tell me email was insecure, so I use dropbox now to transmit files to customers").

    What galls me most is I have to spend part of my IT budget this year spending money on this stupid notion because it is expected by auditors. This means I have to cut back on the security projects that make a real difference.

    1. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how do you change the way a corporation works so that it can't be social engineered by a hacker but still work well for legitimate users and customers? And do it all without providing any "security awareness training" to the employees.

    2. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by rbrightwell · · Score: 2

      You said: Users should be advised to "pick strong passwords and change them regularly". Two contradictory statements, no-one can remember a new complex password that changes regularly unless they write it down. I di$agr33WithY0uWh0leH3art3dly&&.

    3. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really think that replacing E with 3 and O with 0 makes passphrases stronger?

    4. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So how do you change the way a corporation works so that it can't be social engineered by a hacker but still work well for legitimate users and customers? And do it all without providing any "security awareness training" to the employees.

      Think about the ways social engineering occurs. If you have, say, a call centre operator who gives out sensitive information to someone who is not who they say they are, there may be two failings:
      1. They have deviated from the security procedure, or
      2. The security procedures were insufficient.

      In the case of (1), retraining. In the case of (2) redesign. Expecting the call centre operator to think back to some "social engineering" training is a ridiculous control notion, you instead tell them not to ever deviate from the security procedure.

      If someone receives an email, that has managed to evade the spam and AV detection, and they then click through to a third party website, which again evades AV detection - whose fault is that? Do we expect users to identify sophisticated phishing sites? If you're relying on users to do that, at best you have an extremely weak control. Instead, we should be pushing the AV vendors to do better and come up with new solutions, we should be investing in technologies such as DLP and deep packet inspection, and we should be investigating in technologies that detect password misuse or the unauthorised install of software on a user's PC.

    5. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by jewens · · Score: 0

      What galls me most is I have to spend part of my IT budget this year spending money on this stupid notion because it is expected by auditors. This means I have to cut back on the security projects that make a real difference.

      Have you tried getting your humar resources department to add it to their list of recurring mandatory-for-employment training; along with sexual harassment, EEO and all the other CYA events they are expected to cover?

      --
      That group of bovine standing over there appears quite portentous. That's right it's an ominous cow herd.
    6. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by deoxyribonucleose · · Score: 1

      Security engineering and awareness training aren't mutually exclusive: what's needed is a pragmatic balance between the two. Never try to use technology to solve people problems.

      For instance, fraud detection is something people always will have an edge in, thanks to several millennia of social evolutionary pressures. But they won't be infallible, and will be more efficient if technology can filter out the worst distractions. Neither is complete without the other. The question is where we get the most bang for the buck realistically, and there Bruce has several points, without having shown the utter futility of any kind of end user training.

    7. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by rbrightwell · · Score: 1

      It helps, but if that's all you noticed about my password then you failed at understanding that it strikes a balance between memorable and secure. This password includes numbers, symbols, upper and lower case, and is longer than most while still easy to remember.

    8. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      di$agr33WithY0uWh0leH3art3dly&&.

      You think this is memorable? Take a typical company where users are forced to change a password every 30 days.

      They have to remember a new passphrase.
      They have to remember that the start of words are capitalised, except the first word.
      The have to remember to turn s into $, 3 into E etc. In case you're wondering, this is a basic reversal that password crackers find trivial to crack, so you haven't really added two extra character sets - it's security theatre.
      They have to remember to add "&&." at the end.

      As the saying goes, you've created a password that is hard for a user to remember, and easy for a computer to guess.

    9. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The weakest link in any system is the user. You can't make it secure without educating them.

    10. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I'm interested to know how you design a system that works around the weakest link in security being the user? Every system that has been envisaged has been design to authorise the user. The attacks on security aren't attacks on security but rather an attack on the common sense of the user to not let others in.

      The only way around this system is to prevent the user from being able to log someone else in, and the typical way that happens is at the incredible inconvenience to the user, i.e. tying his login to the specific IP address of his computer.

    11. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Oh, users should be told "not to write down passwords".

      I disagree, they should pick a strong password, write it down, and keep it somewhere secure, like their wallet.

    12. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by bickerdyke · · Score: 2

      Apparently, users are supposed to be "trained to recognise phishing emails and other Internet frauds". IT has enough trouble these days trying to recognise them, and somehow our ordinary users are supposed to recognise them too?

      That's because your users should have the one thing that the best malware filter/firewall/virus scanner hasn't: Common sense!

      --
      bickerdyke
    13. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Raumkraut · · Score: 1

      Think about the ways social engineering occurs. If you have, say, a call centre operator who gives out sensitive information to someone who is not who they say they are, there may be two failings:
      1. They have deviated from the security procedure, or
      2. The security procedures were insufficient.

      In the case of (1), retraining. In the case of (2) redesign. Expecting the call centre operator to think back to some "social engineering" training is a ridiculous control notion, you instead tell them not to ever deviate from the security procedure.

      But surely, if it is even possible for (1) to occur, it is a failure of the system storing the data; that sensitive information was disclosed without the security procedures being enforced.

    14. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by vulcan1701 · · Score: 1

      Security Awareness is a part of a security infrastructure. Since it is on the surface, and apparently everyone must do it, it gets the most exposure. In reality, it is a minor part designed to protect against the potential unknown, zero-day, social engineering or unintended privilige escalation.

      An AUP along with three 5-to10-minute videos covering external storage, phishing and social engineering should be sufficient.

    15. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Users should be advised to "pick strong passwords and change them regularly". Two contradictory statements, no-one can remember a new complex password that changes regularly unless they write it down. Oh, users should be told "not to write down passwords".

      This. The idea that randomly changing your password is by any means a good thing is absurd. Has your password been brute forced? Then you're hosed - the damage has already been done, and an aggressor of any talent will have your shiny new password delivered into their waiting hands. Has it not been brute forced? Then you might have just made it easier to brute force.

      Can it be brute forced? That's the real question, isn't it? Programmers who allow for brute force attempts (without compromising a box and grabbing the actual encrypted/hashed passwords out of the requisite file or database) should be taken out to the nearest field and shot. Or demoted to home and small office support. It depends on which qualifies as a war crime. Go with that one.

      Let's not talk about stupid pass 'words' are in the first place. It's 2013; there's no excuse for me to not be able to type an entire sentence into the goddamned form. Correct horse, verily. Argh, I'll stop ranting now.

    16. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by rbrightwell · · Score: 1

      My point is that you can make up a few rules which you can remember, think of a *long* phrase which you can remember, and have a passphrase which is easy to recall and better than 99% of the passwords in use today. This is good enough for most password situations.

      And yes... I do find that password easy to remember.

      Do you have a better solution for memorable passwords?

    17. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Sique · · Score: 1
      But you can reduce his influence by designing systems more securely.

      If your input field doesn't accept ); anymore, the probability of an user starting an SQL injection attack intentionally or involuntarily sinks drastically.

      If you replace the door to the secure vault with a man trap, inadvertedly leaving the door open to the secure vault doesn't happen anymore, and so does tailgating.

      You rightly identified the user as the weakest link, but your solution is disputed by Bruce Schneier.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    18. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      I have my doubts about the usefulness of changing passwords often. If your password is sufficiently strong, and there is no likelihood of inadvertently passing it on to a third party, you shouldn't need to change it that frequently. If the password can be scraped from the target system at any time, then you're fucked in any case. This is simply a reason to have an array of memorable (but strong) passwords for ranges of sites, where the smallest range is for critical things like banking(*) and the largest range is for inconsequential sites like Slashdot. ;)

      * Ironically, banks always seem (at least here in .au) to have the servers supporting only the weakest passwords, limiting the number of characters and not accepting punctuation or whitespace.

    19. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by babywhiz · · Score: 1

      "Expecting the call centre operator to think back to some "social engineering" training..."

      If the training for Social Engineering stopped at the call centre, then the training plan is flawed to begin with. Everyone in IT better already be familiar with Social Engineering tactics and better know how to recognize them without thinking twice. That is just part of the job. If it's not where you work, then it should be. We require people that work in our IT Dept to know how to spot most Social Engineering attempts, and have read at least one Kevin Mitnick book. We work in Aerospace manufacturing, so we have to keep a closer eye on WHO has access to what.

      The hard core, effective training at that point should be at the receptionist, the person that is answering the phone when the user presses 0 on their phone, and the people allowed to open the door for someone on the outside. That is the very first line of defense for Social Engineering attempts.

      Kids these days....Get off my lawn.....

    20. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Annirak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, I do. The problem is that passwords are fundamentally broken. They are broken in several ways.

      1) The password must be hard to guess. This, generally, makes it hard to remember.
      2) Many implementations restrict the number of characters that I can use for a password. This is downright stupid, as it prevents xkcd/936 compliance.
      3) Every service which uses a password must have a different password to prevent password reuse attacks. This exacerbates 1).
      4) I need a way to recover the password if I lose it. This exposes a secondary attack vector on my password.
      5) There needs to be a guarantee that the password will never be transmitted or stored unencrypted.

      OAuth fixes 3) and mitigates 5) and 2).
      Two-factor authentication fixes 1): guessing my password can be easy provided that attacks on my service provider are slow and that I can report my token lost/stolen in time several orders of magnitude lower than the time required to guess the whole solution space.
      Biometrics can be used to mitigate 1) and 4), but they expose additional flaws, such as lack of revocation. If someone ever gets your fingerprint, they have access to all your fingerprint secured data/possessions, unless they are additionally secured by something else.

      Using most OAuth vendors, however, exposes an additional security hole: tracking by the OAuth vendor (see Google, Facebook privacy concerns).

      Ultimately, it seems to me that the solution is probably private OAuth vendors with support for smartphone-based secure keys. The problem is getting service providers, such as banks, to implement OAuth via a username + domain (OAuth vendor) + token approach.

      This should allow users to choose their OAuth vendor, thereby allowing flexibility in the market when a particular OAuth vendor does Bad Things with users' data. This makes the required password complexity minimal. If the engine which processes the token and password were rolled into a secure smartphone application and transmitted to the OAuth vendor via a back-channel, it would also prevent password scraping.

    21. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by tofarr · · Score: 1

      That password is not much more secure than "idisagreewithyouwholeheartedly" (And I would argue much more difficult to remember) - brute force systems have long ago incorporated the "leet" dialect.

    22. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by rbrightwell · · Score: 1

      You are right about leet. Leet was used in my example to make it human readable, so people would understand my comment. I would use different rules for character substitution and insertion. My rules would stay the same and therefor be easy to remember from one passphrase to the next. This has been the best way I've found to create relatively secure passwords I can change every few months and which I can remember off the top of my head.

      Ultimately passwords are problematic. Password vault software helps, but for those passwords I use 15 times a day this method works pretty well. From what I've seen its waaaaay more secure than what other people are using.

    23. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      Not allowing ");" in an input field is not a good way of preventing a SQL attack. What you should be doing first is using parameters in your sql and then you can try to play whack-a-mole with validating the input fields (bear in mind you'll need to allow for all those tricky unicode ways of hiding characters).

      I'm also not convinced that a man trap is a secure alternative to a door as it's easy enough to fashion a hook on a pole to remove items without setting off the man trap. I'd rather have a reasonably secure door and if necessary, a trained security guard keeping watch on the safe as well.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    24. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by rbrightwell · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Passwords are problematic. Two factor authentication and OAuth are improvements and we should use these when we can. However, 97% of the places I authenticate don't support these. So my question is, what's the best way to create a memorable password for all the rest?

    25. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      If it's a password that they use every single day, any user with a brain larger then a goldfish can remember it after a week or two. Those who can't - should probably be working the checkout line at the local grocery store and not handling sensitive data.

      However, this means you should not be requiring them to change the password without good cause. Weekly/Monthly/Quarterly resets are not a good enough reason to force a password reset.

      We give our users the instructions to put the password on a folded slip of paper in their wallet/purse with no other identifying information on it. People are generally pretty good about keeping track of their money and not letting unauthorized people access to it. So you may as well take advantage of that during the period that it takes the user to remember the password.

      The bigger problem is passwords which are used for sensitive systems, where the user accesses them on an infrequent basis. Storage of those passwords is a big problem because users have a hard time remembering them.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    26. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      2) Many implementations restrict the number of characters that I can use for a password. This is downright stupid, as it prevents xkcd/936 compliance.

      Worse, it implies that the password may be stored in the database in clear text (since if they're storing a hash, why would they care what the length of the input password was?)

    27. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      It helps, but if that's all you noticed about my password then you failed at understanding that it strikes a balance between memorable and secure. This password includes numbers, symbols, upper and lower case, and is longer than most while still easy to remember.

      Here's a monthly password list that's "secure" and "easy to remember" you can use:
      January!2013
      February@2013
      March#2013 ...
      November-2013
      December=2013

      Capitals. Numbers. Symbols. Easy to remember.

      Check!

    28. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      If your input field doesn't accept ); anymore, the probability of an user starting an SQL injection attack intentionally or involuntarily sinks drastically.

      Or you could use parameterized queries, and then it won't matter if you forgot one of the possible escape sequences, since the whole input string will be treated as data rather than code.

    29. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do not think that phrase means what you think it means. A good example of a man trap is a revolving door that requires authentication to pass/spin and moves only two sections forward before locking again.

      Please explain to me how to bypass this man trap with a hook or a pole when the door goes from floor to ceiling and wall to wall.

    30. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      Sorry - I was thinking of animal traps that snap two jaws together when you tread on them (e.g. bear trap).

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    31. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Kwyj1b0 · · Score: 1

      If it's a password that they use every single day, any user with a brain larger then a goldfish can remember it after a week or two. Those who can't - should probably be working the checkout line at the local grocery store and not handling sensitive data.

      Two things: (1) The password might have no relation to how well I can do my job ONCE I have access to the necessary information, and (2) You seem to imply passwords is like the keys to the vault - very few people have it, and anyone with the right password should be allowed to access the vault.

      The truth is, a person might be great at marketing or sales or design or whatever, but they are forced by the system to do things (like remember passwords) - which they might have no interest/aptitude for - just to access information for their job. Computers have become so common, and everyone is forced to do things that they would rather not. I'm sure there are very smart people in lots of areas who can't do the simplest things with their computers - that doesn't make them lousy at their main job, it just means that the technology is preventing them from doing it.

      The problem is, passwords have become a form of identification - kind of like a social security number. They are more like keys. A bank won't agree to give me money if I just show up without picture identification that matches my account details. The password => person is flawed, because that is simply not true. That would be like someone showing up to your bank with your house key and claiming that they now have access to everything you own. What is worse is that we know passwords are not person identification tools, and our solution is to make passwords harder.

    32. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Apparently, users are supposed to be "trained to recognise phishing emails and other Internet frauds". IT has enough trouble these days trying to recognise them, and somehow our ordinary users are supposed to recognise them too?

      Actually, phishing emails are trivial for humans to recognize. They all have a single characteristic: they contain at least one link that the user is likely to click, linking to a site other than the site that the email is about. Any email that meets those criteria should be considered phishing (with the possible exception of innocuous things like "Rate this merchant", which are spam, not phishing).

      They're hard to recognize programmatically because the software can't easily know that the email looks like an email from your bank. But once you have identified that it looks like it came from your bank, if the links go anywhere other than to your bank's website, there's a problem.

      That said, ultimately, I blame the banks. They are, or at least should be, well aware that email senders are trivially forged, and they have not taken steps to sign their emails even though they are an obvious example of something that should be signed.

      Further, banks should also know that users are likely to click links in email messages, so if they really want to prevent phishing, they should never include links in email messages. If a bank makes it clear that their policy is "We will never send you an email containing links to our website," and if users start getting emails from their bank that say, "Go to our website for more details," with no link, at first they might be slightly annoyed, but once they get used to that, an email from that bank with a link (any link) will immediately jump out at them as being dubious, which is exactly the correct response.

      Unfortunately, the marketing people would have a cow, because they think that security is less important than being able to accurately measure the response to email campaigns using click-through rates. Ultimately, the MBAs and MarCom majors of the world are the reason that phishing is so easy, and that so many people are fooled by it every day.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    33. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Ok. BEING such a snake oil peddler, I cannot help but reply.

      And sadly, what you say is true. It hurts me in more ways than just in the reputation we have from people who cling religiously to some idiotic tick box crib sheet. What hurts me more is that these are actually the people who "do it right". At least when "right" is defined by "what is requested by your customer".

      Just to clarify, what you describe here is EXACTLY what happens, but not because we want to sell you that. Far from it. It is what your CEO wants from us. Because it's the quickest and easiest way to get that godforsaken ISO sheet for his wall. They don't give a shit about security. I'd even lower my rates if they did, because I do actually WANT to sell security and not a fucking framed piece of toilet paper.

      Real security costs more. It requires some rather in-depth training of your IT staff so they could take over for your users and design security in such a way that the users do not only not have to heed some security protocols but can't even NOT heed it because they are no longer part of the whole process. Yes, it IS possible to take the user out of the security paradigm (almost) entirely. BUT it also requires a LOT of restructuring. And that costs money. If you develop software in-house, it also means a load of money for dev training, another thing that's not really easy to sell to the average C-level tie rack.

      What's cheap, and hence very popular with C-levels, is tossing a security regulation the size of a phone book at your users and tell them to heed it. Sadly, that's enough for the toilet paper for the wall.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    34. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Nearly everything can eventually be traced to a fault in the security process.

      If (1) occurs, then the security process didn't include screening for personal weakness in the user failing to uphold the security standard, or if it existed its method is faulty and needs to be refined.

      If a user handing out his password to an untrusted person is a problem, then the fault is also in the security process relying on a security paradigm that doesn't sufficiently uphold the CIA of the information. In such a case, a shift to another paradigm is in order. Replace passwords with key cards or biometry, i.e. something the authorized user cannot easily pass on to an untrusted entity without them being physically present. Also, users are way more wary handing over physical objects than telling passwords. It's a human thing. We have no problem sharing, but we don't really like giving someone something without us still having it.

      As for your last example, this is a classic example of faulty security. There are multiple points at which security could have interrupted the illegal operation, from spam filter to click through to the webpage not noticing it is being MITM'ed. They all failed? Time to fire your CISO and replace him with someone who doesn't only build speed bumps for users.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    35. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      How successful attempts at SE are depends on management. No, seriously. I've done my share of SE during audits (that's one of the job perks if you ask me), and what makes or breaks it is usually how far my threats take me. If I can somehow con the employee into believing me that he gets into trouble if he does not let me in DAMN RIGHT NOW, I'm in. And whether he believes me this depends highly on how management handles such cases. A statement like "you won't get into trouble even if you stop the POTUS here and tell him to get a seat and one for his ego, but God help you if he comes in here without me knowing it" can work wonders here.

      Likewise, if it is known that you can draw the ire of some C-level by keeping his spoiled brats from terrorizing the office, SE becomes too easy to even be interesting.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    36. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's prone to a dictionary attack.

      Cracking dicts with l33tsp33k are pretty much a standard today.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    37. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Yes. The Bible. The only use I actually have for the good book since I replaced that table with the short leg.

      It comes with everything you need. First, there are SO many different versions out there that even telling you which Chapter and Paragraph I'll use won't necessarily allow you to get in with the three attempts you have. Second, nobody questions you having a Bible in your briefcase (especially if traveling is part of your job) and certainly nobody DARES questioning when you read it every morning briefly before work. Depending on your boss, it might even be looked at favorably. Now pick your paragraph of the month (It's fairly easy to come up with a system that lets you "calculate" one), take every first, second or whatever letter of that paragraph and you have a pretty neat password.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    38. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Actually, changing it often is more sensible than making it longer and more convoluted. Password brute-forcing is a thing of the past, especially with limited login attempts being omnipresent. At least I didn't encounter a single successful brute force confidentiality breach (though, as a funny twist, the way it was set up with one company that I know of it turned out that it can easily become an availability problem when they set it so that a detected brute force attempt shut out EVERY other attempt... classic successful DoS due to the security mechanism gone wrong).

      And banks having seemingly no use for sensible, strong passwords isn't limited to .au, you have the same crap going down in Europe (no whitespace, no non-standard alphabet characters, no ', 10 letters maximum...).

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    39. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Doesn't satisfy the "not found in a dictionary, in whole or part" clause found in most password security requirements.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    40. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You can, if you take his ability away to fuck up. It may be prohibitive expensive to do, though, and some things may not be allowed due to workers rights in some countries. For example, I may not strip search people here to make sure they don't carry USB sticks in or out.

      There is, though, a technical solution for nearly every "human" problem.

      How to keep people from telling passwords to others? Replace passwords with keycards or biometry.
      How to keep people from letting anyone into the office? Hire a bouncer and give him clear rules (at the very least reduces training to one person instead of 100s, plus he is focused on this job and this job only).
      How to keep people from sneaking data in or out? Disable the use of data devices not approved by the company and track the position (i.e. sound an alarm if someone tries to carry one out the door) of the ones people may use.

      The solution is not to educate the user. The solution is to take him out of the equation. Not only does it improve your security, it also improves your productivity. Security is often seen as a productivity killer, but that's mostly due to security being handled the way you demand here, by dumping the burden on the user and requiring him to jump through a more and more ridiculous set of hoops. Perfect security is achieved when the user doesn't even notice security anymore (as long as he doesn't deliberately try to circumvent it) because he isn't part of the security process anymore.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    41. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's a paradigm shift. From "something you know" to "something you have". And when you allow that in your company, you can just as well go all the way with it and issue key cards.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    42. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It's time we shift away from authorizing the user but instead authorizing resources. The main flaw in most security protocols these days is that the creed is "once you're in, do what you want". Not only are most security systems designed that way, most security officers think that way, too. You have all sorts of access restriction protocols and authentication procedures in place... until someone is eventually logged in to the system. Then, all of a sudden, this all doesn't matter anymore. He's authorized to do whatever he pleases (or rather, whatever the permissions associated with his user account allow).

      What I think should happen is that we start looking at the resources a user wants to access and grant access depending on his normal workflow. He may have access to all contracts dealing with a client, but he does not need to read (or even copy) them all at once. If he is looking for a specific one, this can be done without him having access to all the contracts, instead of him reading all contracts, have him tell what he is looking for and present him only the resource that satisfies his need.

      TL;DR version: Users may have access to many confidential files, but there is rarely a reason to need them all at once.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    43. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Sadly, common sense is, despite the name, a rather rare resource.

      Also, don't forget that most users have other things on their mind than "that stupid computer stuff". They want to do their work. And usually they got enough at their hands with that as it is.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    44. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Or demoted to home and small office support.

      The 8th amendment will not look nicely on that one...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    45. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by PuZZleDucK · · Score: 2

      xkcd/936 compliance

      I hope this terminology catches on to be the next "RFC"

      New improved FooBarX_2... now ISO, POSIX and XKCD compliant.

      --
      Can a person program a new solution to a problem? Why should anyone be able to stop such a thing? -Richard Stallman
    46. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      Sadly, common sense is, despite the name, a rather rare resource.

      Also, don't forget that most users have other things on their mind than "that stupid computer stuff". They want to do their work. And usually they got enough at their hands with that as it is.

      Yes, but keeping your machine clean is a vital part of the "getting your work done". And it's not some active task. It's just being alert and keep critical thinking turned on. If it sounds to goog to be true, it probably is. Microsoft is NOT donating an iPhone to an orphan each time an email is forwarded.

      Beware! Car analogy: ignoring computer security for "getting work done" is like ignoring speed limits because you're busy getting from A to B.

      --
      bickerdyke
    47. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Key cards for every machine and every employee could get expensive, but pencil and paper are practically free.

    48. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      ...and a security hazard.

      What you get that way is an OR clause between the two security paradigms of knowing and having something. Also, losing the piece of paper becomes a security issue. It is trivial to reproduce. A loss is not necessarily reported but may be used by an untrusted party.

      It is one more thing I have to trust an employee with. Whether that's cheaper than issuing key cards is debatable.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    49. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And as you might have noticed, people still do it. Because everyone is of course a good enough driver that stupid mistakes and accidents won't happen to him.

      Why do you think this behaviour does not apply to something where their life is not at stake if they fuck up?

      People will gladly ignore and circumvent any kind of security that gets in their way of doing their work, and they will not really see anything wrong with it because after all they do it not for personal gains but for the "good of the company". Telling them it's not so will at best make them think you're some high strung idiot who is full of himself and who needs to justify his existence on the payroll. It certainly will not make them heed security requirements.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    50. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      People will gladly ignore and circumvent any kind of security that gets in their way of doing their work, and they will not really see anything wrong with it because after all they do it not for personal gains but for the "good of the company".

      That's a slightly different thing. I already gave an example somewhere in this thread that often enough, "in the name of security", processes are in place that interfere with the work at hand.Security has no clue of business and management relly acts like PHB.

      --
      bickerdyke
    51. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      What you get that way is an OR clause between the two security paradigms of knowing and having something

      No, it's still knowing something. If you lose the paper, it's nothing but a random string of characters to anyone finding it. It could even be disguised as something else, like a street address or a shopping list. I will agree that writing down "work email login LSD486 pw $ed7VXr7&f" would be stupid.

    52. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      All depends on who finds the wallet.

      It's like when you find a key. Yes, you need additional information to make use of it. But you cannot control who finds it and where. If I KNOW it is your key and I know you, I can already start excluding the areas where it would probably fit.

      The real area of threat is in such a scenario less the random thief that pulls your wallet out of your pocket. The threat is in a targeted attack by someone who knows what he's looking for. The real threat is in the ease of copying the access information.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    53. Re:Tick the box exercise for auditors by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That is a problem, but more one of self absorbed CISOs who feel the need to build a monument to their own greatness than one of ITSEC itself. Perfect security isn't one that you stub your toe on with every step you take, perfect security is the exact opposite: Completely transparent for the user and not even noticeable anymore. Mostly because if you can't notice security, you cannot fuck it up, neither deliberately nor accidentally.

      Security that interferes with your work is a security hazard because it involved employee interaction and more importantly it keeps the employee from doing his work, which often (ok, nearly always) causes the reaction from the user to try to circumvent, disable or otherwise destroy this roadblock, and not even with any qualms or problems with their conscience, they don't do anything wrong in their books, after all, they just do it to get their work done. They don't do it "against" the company by breaking a rule, they do it FOR the company because they need to do it to get work done.

      This is about the WORST case scenario for your security! You then have an employee who not only disables your security, you also have one who will not come to you, his CISO, when something goes wrong. I mean, do you really want to call the police if you cause an accident because you broke the law? Even if that act of trespassing was done with the intention to do good?

      Security MUST NOT stand in the way of productivity. If it does, you fail as a CISO.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  7. Not news by Tom · · Score: 3, Informative

    Nice to hear it from someone with a big name. I'm an IT security specialist, giving talks every now and then, and I've basically been saying the same for years now. It is one of the topic where I face the most fierce opposition, usually from (big surprise) consultants and other people who offer security awareness trainings.

    I've been doing this for so long that I can sum it up in one sentence by now: If security awareness trainings would work, don't you think we would be seing SOME effect after doing them for 20 years?

    Of course, I am exaggerating a bit to make the point. I do think that training to make users familiar with specific security protocols is useful. I don't think general security awareness is. There is a plethora of reasons why it's a failure, from the context-specific nature of the human mind to the abstract level, but the main reason is that we have enough experience to show that it really is a waste of time and resources. Putting the same amount of money and effort into almost any other security program is going to give you a better ROI.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:Not news by gmack · · Score: 1

      While I agree that the system should do what it can to prevent intrusions and bad passwords, there are some things that users are just going to have to know not to do such as not writing their passwords on a sticky note or replying to some random email with their bank login or social security number.

    2. Re:Not news by Bongo · · Score: 1

      Maybe a picture is, user awareness is the very last line of defence. If the terrorist is on the plane and armed, the passengers are the last line. But it was the failure of everything before that point that's to blame. Gee we really should increase passenger awareness of how to spot terrorists -- he has a big beard, no wait he doesn't have a beard, no wait he's dressed ordinary but is reaching into his bag, no wait he's taking off his shoe, no wait he's actually a she and young, etc.

      We all know there are "bad guys" out there. And we can alert people about specific attacks occurring today. "A man in a blue T-shirt is walking around and police say he has a record and probably looking to steal equipment". People will listen to that. But indeed, general vague "you should be security trained" is not much use, it seems; you have to tell people exactly what they can and can't do and that list is too long and complicated and keep growing.

    3. Re:Not news by serviscope_minor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nice to hear it from someone with a big name. I'm an IT security specialist, giving talks every now and then, and I've basically been saying the same for years now. It is one of the topic where I face the most fierce opposition, usually from (big surprise) consultants and other people who offer security awareness trainings.

      Of course, I am exaggerating a bit to make the point. I do think that training to make users familiar with specific security protocols is useful. I don't think general security awareness is. There is a plethora of reasons why it's a failure, from the context-specific nature of the human mind to the abstract level, but the main reason is that we have enough experience to show that it really is a waste of time and resources. Putting the same amount of money and effort into almost any other security program is going to give you a better ROI.

      I am honestly surprised by this. I really do not see how you can avoid security awareness training.

      Forcing the users to pick non-lousy passwords is simply not enough if the users will happily repond to an email from email.admin@scamsite.ru (Re: YO'RE ACCOUNT IS SOON EXPiRE!1) with their username, passowrd, SSN, date of birth and random security questions.

      OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but users do happily respond to really poor phishing attacks and will tell their password to someone they assume is an email admin because the email comes from an account with admin in the name.

      Security is as much as a social problem as a technical one, and you simply cannot ignore the social aspect. And for that people have to have some understandings of basic security protocols: e.g. the admins will never ask for your password.

      In fact, I would go as far as to say that security is very much a social problem. Technology will only get you half way. If your system is not easily hackable from the outside, you have reached the minimum standard. The trouble is that "social engineering" is really easy.

      Even if you switch to 2 factor authentication it won't help enough: if the user believes that an admin has contacted them, then they will do ANYTHING to help that admin and will even follow detaile dinstructions to bypass as much security as possible. For some reason people being scammed are way better at following instructions than when they're not being scammed.

      As someone else quoted earlier: never underestimeate the ingenuity of complete fools.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    4. Re:Not news by Tom · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I really do not see how you can avoid security awareness training.

      To use a metaphor from my most recent talk: If you need to write "push" and "pull" on your doors, then they are designed badly. Same for security awareness. Improving the security tools is better than telling people how to safely handle broken tools.

      but users do happily respond to really poor phishing attacks

      Yes, they do.

      And all the security awareness training we've been doing for two decades has made which sustained change, exactly? That is the point. Not that we don't have a security problem, but that security awareness trainings are not a good way to solve them.

      Security is as much as a social problem as a technical one, and you simply cannot ignore the social aspect.

      I don't. On the contrary, I believe the security awareness training advocates do. They think that just telling someone solves the problem, when overwhelming evidence to the contrary proves them wrong.

      I believe the solution lies in asking a) why and b) how the users break security protocols and then tackling those issues, instead of telling them "don't do it" and thinking you've solved the problem.

      As someone else quoted earlier: never underestimeate the ingenuity of complete fools.

      I believe calling the users dumb and fools and "lusers" and such is a cop-out. It's an easy pseudo-solution to avoid the real problem, which is not so trivial. Redesigning your concepts, protocols, hardware and software to be fail-safe (or idiot-proof, if you want) is hard. Much harder than shoving everyone into a room to listen to a boring lecture, 90% of which they'll have forgotten as soon as they're out the door.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    5. Re:Not news by Tom · · Score: 1

      And I believe that even these "simple" seeming user mistakes have underlying root causes.

      For example (because I gave a talk about that, I've done the research) - why do people write down passwords? Could it be, at least in part, because we ask them to remember crap like [|+DU%:,9}v2 -- actual output from an online password generator!

      Nobody who has other hobbies can remember that, much less 20 of those (because we also tell people to not re-use passwords).

      Solution: Write it down.

      Here's how I solved this problem when I wrote the security policy for a medium-sized company last year (yes, you can hire me): People are allowed to write down passwords into secure tools dedicated to this purpose, the IT will supply you with a list of tools they approve of for your mobile phone.

      Perfect security? No. But much, much better than post-it notes and something you can actually teach employees. You don't need an awareness training for that. Everything the user needs to know fits on a nice list that fits on one page of paper.

      ob-xkcd:
      http://xkcd.com/936/

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    6. Re:Not news by Riceballsan · · Score: 2

      well I suppose the real question should be, what tool should be used to protect from the hundreds of weak vectors in a company's users. Requiring stronger passwords, or forcing regular changing etc... increases the likelyness of post it notes etc... and well phishing? we are pretty much SoL for, the only thing I can possibly think of for phishing, would be an IT organized internal phishing test. IE the IT officials intentionally permit an account they created, say "companyadmin@gmail.com" to send a mass e-mail to a random person a day. Everyone caught gets pooled into a very boring company meeting (whether they learn anything from the meeting is irrelevant, they will b*ch and moan about what happened to the entire office, creating a huge increase of skepticism throughout. A boring meeting that they have to go to no matter what, isn't going to accomplish much, but a boring meeting they could avoid if they don't screw up, that might actually be workable.

    7. Re:Not news by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I believe calling the users dumb and fools and "lusers" and such is a cop-out.

      The full quote is more or less: the trouble with making something foolproof is that one underestimates the ingenuity of fools.

      It's not so much calling users fools as calling into question the concept of foolproof. Users can and will do all sorts of strange things half of which you would never imagine. It is very hard to defend against things which you cannot think of.

      Redesigning your concepts, protocols, hardware and software to be fail-safe (or idiot-proof, if you want) is hard.

      Or, it's impossible. It is not possible to distinguish Bob User accessing the system for himself, or the exact same physical Bob User accessing the system on behalf of Sergi R Scammer from scamsite.ru because Bob User received a convinving looking email from "admin".

      I do not see how it is remotely possible to solve the above in a technical manner.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    8. Re:Not news by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Everyone caught gets pooled into a very boring company meeting (whether they learn anything from the meeting is irrelevant, they will b*ch and moan about what happened to the entire office, creating a huge increase of skepticism throughout. A boring meeting that they have to go to no matter what, isn't going to accomplish much, but a boring meeting they could avoid if they don't screw up, that might actually be workable

      Now, that's an interesting idea.

      Bonus points if you make it in some shithole town that is an irritatingly long commute to, and to start at some irritating time in the morning. It must be one of those run-down conference places with faded tattered furniture, horrible old fluorescent lights on low ceilings with slight flicker and an annoying buzzing sound, inexplicable stained and broken ceiling tiles and one of those notice boards where nothing sticks on quite straight. All signs are bad B&W photocopies of colour inkjet printouts.

      Oh, and make sure the available coffee and available food is terrible. It must taste of cheapness and dispair. Oh and of course have the mid morning to lunchtime session over run horribly until about 2:30 so people are in a truly foul mood when it's done.

      People will have phones, so make free wifi available. But nasty unpleasant wifi. Randomly fast, randomly time out connections. Every so often make it go randomly back to the authentication page. But just good enough to make people use it instead of a data plan, but bad enough to make them depressed and irritable. Turns out a displeasing free thing is worse than nothing at all.

      And make it dull. Hundreds and hundreds of nasty drony graph filled powerpoint slides in the default style with clipart. All presented by a drony balding slightly overweight 50+ year old guy who has apparently lost all joy in life. Combover is optional but recommended.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    9. Re:Not news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Immutable Law of Security Administration #2: "Security only works if the secure way also happens to be the easy way."

      Make it the easy way and users will train themselves. But making systems easy to use is more difficult than many people can imagine even without the extra burden of security, and it's expensive. It's easier to build unusable systems in the name of security, provide ineffective training, and then blame users' inability to learn when the inevitable breach due to user error occurs.

    10. Re:Not news by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I think I can at least answer the why and how users break security protocols. I've also seen my share of companies (both as employee and as consultant in the ITSEC field) and there is actually a pattern. And even more interestingly, nearly all of them I can trace to a problem with the protocols in place, either directly or by the way they interact with the humans that have to follow them.

      First of all, an important distinction must be made between deliberate and accidental protocol violation. A deliberate violation happens for one of two reasons: Personal gains or workflow issues. And despite what some C-levels think, violations for personal gains (to run his private business at company time or to access blocked pages for leisure) are fairly rare. And quite easily dealt with: Warning to cease and firing if he doesn't. This is also the ONLY time you can actually peg the problem on the user. Every other kind of violation eventually, somehow, happens due to other factors that are beyond the user's control.

      Much more problematic are deliberate protocol violations that happen because the user needs to do it to get work done. And while it may sound odd, it is more prevalent than one may expect. I'd even dare to say, it happens in every company to some extent. It usually happens when badly designed security limitations inhibit the workflow or even make it impossible to perform work critical tasks. Like, say, disallowing users to download executables or receive them in emails, but at the same time having a developer who needs to update his own development environment and who has to do this so often that the bureaucratic process of channeling it through IT becomes unfeasible. Or limiting the attachment space of mails while users somehow need to receive mails with big images attached. Both limitations certainly have their right to exist and they have certainly not been put into place with the idea to get into someone's way, but they do.

      What makes matters worse in this context is that users are usually on their own when it comes to solving this problem. And this opens a completely different can of worms, too. Not only are they now pissed at security because they not only "do nothing for me", no, they even get in my way. I could do my work just fine, if it wasn't for those useless security dorks. The much bigger security problem is now that these people know that they "break the law". And, well, if you do, the last one you'll call when you have a problem is the police. Or, in other words, don't expect them to come to security if they happen to run into a security breach. Especially if this breach is due to their circumvention of the security protocols.

      And that is about the WORST thing that can happen. Because the vicious cycle starts turning. People don't report security issues, so management spends more resources on surveillance to get that information, which destroys trust in security, they are no longer seen as working "for me", the user, but working "against me" and just waiting to rat me out upstairs. And then the old joke becomes truth: If you see in the packed cafeteria two people sitting alone at a long table and even they don't talk to each other, you know where security and controlling are placed.

      Accidental protocol breaches in turn instantly makes me ask the question how it could happen in the first place. If a user has the "power" to actually cause a security leak, the most efficient way to fix this is to remove this power from the user. What a user cannot fuck up, he cannot fuck up. If handing over passwords is an issue, replace them with keycards. People do not like to give something away without good reason. It's a human behavior problem, users usually have little qualms when it comes to telling you something, but giving something away, they wonder why. And most of all, they want it back, and soon. They cannot forget about it, while they quickly forget if they tell the password to someone.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:Not news by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      No, he's right. If you treat people like fools, they will behave like ones. Not only that, but you create an "us vs them" situation, and in security the very LAST thing you really want is to be distrusted by the users. You depend on them informing you of security issues. You can't be everywhere, and depending on your local work laws you may not be allowed to snoop into their files and their mail. And, bluntly, who has the time and will to sift through security logs looking for oddities that can hardly be automated (if they could be automated, they couldn't happen in the first place).

      I want my users to trust me, all the time, no matter the problem and no matter what fuckup (as long as they don't go out of their way just to mess with me). Working means making mistakes, making no mistakes means you don't work. So you better make mistakes, buddy, I have no place in my heart for slackers! :)

      But back to seriousness. It is indeed nontrivial to determine whether what the user DOES is actually what the user WANTS to do, this is maybe the single biggest problem in security. Solve it and you have found the holy grail of ITSEC. Plus, I'm fairly sure a lot of banks would pay quite a shiny buck for that miracle because it would finally mean dead secure online banking. But I digress.

      There are ways, though. I think we should abandon the "all out" paradigm of security. The "you may or you may not" approach. Currently, once a user is authenticated, he's in and may do as he pleases (within his permissions). He can open every file he has access to at the same time without the security system wondering why the hell he would possibly want to do that. Sure, he maybe has access to all client contracts, but is it feasible that he really needs to open them all at once? I think a shift to resource based security could be a step forward, but we're far from this approach being anything remotely necessary to get some framed toilet paper for the wall. And as long as something ain't a ISO27k necessity, you'll see very few companies ponder implementing it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:Not news by Tom · · Score: 1

      Parent is correct in everything.

      Here's another piece of the puzzle: Mobile devices, or rather: The data on them. At the last contract I worked, I went some distance with the CTO to get language into the security policy that assures users that nothing bad will happen to them if they lose hardware or suspect its stolen, and really, really need to report such immediately. Even if they just suspect it's lost. Better report as stolen and find it the next day then give the bad guys a day to use it.

      That is why I'm an enemy of the whole security awareness and user training and other stuff that basically makes the users responsible and still has this 1990s attitude of "the user is the biggest security problem" attached to it.

      Mind you, I've been part of that crowd before I wised up. So I think I can tell them in no uncertain terms that that's fucked up, because I used to make the same mistake.

      But you can not expect user cooperation and call them lusers, noobs, security problems or PEBCAK at the same time.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    13. Re:Not news by Tom · · Score: 1

      You are correct that nothing is ever 100% safe against accidental or intentional mis-use.

      That is not a reason to not make it 99% safe, however. Or as close to 100% as you can be.

      Would you fly in an airplane if nobody had thought about making sure it doesn't explode in mid-air or the wings fall off? Of course not. But you probably know that airplanes aren't 100% safe, and a number of them crash every year.

      Same with security. We never get 100%, but we try to be as close as we can manage. And making systems fool-proof is of the same category. There will be something you missed. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    14. Re:Not news by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I am misreading your comments here. It seems to me that you are espousing the idea that educating people about dangers does not help in mitigating dangers.

      If this is what you are arguing, I disagree.

      There are dangers that no amount of technology can alleviate. It is true that educating all users about these dangers will not prevent all people from stumbling across these problems. It is also true that educating all users will prevent some users from stumbling across these problems. I conclude that minimizing risk is valuable enough to perform security awareness training for all users.

      Example of a danger that can not be avoided: Phishing email from an internal attacker (another employee) asking for their logon credentials to a certain system.

      I assert that training users to never expect anyone in the company to ask for their logon credentials will help in preventing this sort of attack. The attacker will not know who will report the incident and is less likely to even try it for fear of being discovered. It is also less likely that if the attacker does try it that the user targeted will fall for it.

      In short, security awareness training is valuable but I agree that it is not a "patch" for broken systems (don't click on that URL). Would you agree?

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    15. Re:Not news by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The user actually IS the biggest security problem in many companies. He is turned into it by management and security policies.

      When you punish people for mistakes, they will not stop making mistakes. People don't go out and WANT to make mistakes in the first place. If you are plagued by employees that deliberately make mistakes to harm your company, you have way bigger problems than ITSEC can fix!

      No employee wants to lose his laptop. Employees even don't become careless if they know that losing it doesn't mean they get fired. The hassle of getting a new one and then getting it to the point where it works and looks like the old one alone is enough motivation for them to make sure they will guard it like a hen guards her nest. Smartphones are even less an issue, especially if they need to be reachable inside and outside for their job. Losing that often means losing important information or even losing a contract, they will already do what is in their power to keep this from happening for simple self interest.

      So adding punishment for losing items is not going to help. Actually, it adds to the security problem. Because if he knows he will be punished for it, he will delay reporting the loss for as long as he possibly can. He will instead go look for it and hope he finds it, and here's where about the WORST CASE can enter: He does find it, but before he does some attacker could tamper with it. Then you have a compromised system on your hands and nobody knows about it. The only one who could know about it will also be the very last one to report it, essentially, your policy made the employee become the attacker's unwilling accomplice.

      It is interesting how the security paradigms of companies often ignore the human factor. In more than one way, not only that humans don't like to be punished, but also that humans will pit their intelligence AGAINST your security when it gets in their way. And that's another thing I try to get across in my talks: Rigid security policies lead to people working around the rough corners that they rub against. An example.

      Not long ago, I was CISO of a moderately sized company (roughly 10,000 employees). Shortly after my arrival I was by pure chance in the IT room in the morning when some old guy came in, talked to one of the techs about "his password", got a sheet of paper, dropped off some muffins and went. After some interrogation I found out what was going on. He couldn't remember his password and needed a new one. Every single day. Now, he was one of the smartest people there, but just not a technical person and somehow unable to remember passwords that followed the (admittedly quite over-the-top) standards my predecessor put into place. At least he was smart enough to NOT do what a lot of the other employees did, write it down. What he did instead is strike a deal with IT, they reset his password routinely every morning, printed it out and gave it to him, and they got fresh muffins from his wife in return.

      After I recovered from the near heart attack, I traced down the whole deal and it was a surprisingly secure system they had designed (well... aside from the fact that IT knew his password, but let's assume for a moment that someone with root access to everything and no need to cut off the hand that feeds them... ya know). He took the paper to his office, typed in his password and shredded the paper. He kept his office locked religiously and there was only one key for it. It's not something I could really enjoy, but considering the problem they faced and their options, this was the ONLY solution they could implement that still retained at least as much security as possible. I was quite impressed at the ingenuity.

      The solution was in the end that I got him a laptop with finger print sensor which also solved the problem, but was out of reach for their potential.

      Now, of course this could not possibly be a solution for a larger group of people. Imagine 10,000 people queuing up in front of IT to pick up their password of the day. But that'

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    16. Re:Not news by Tom · · Score: 1

      Couldn't have said it better. You and I should exchange notes on some of our talks one day. :-)

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  8. Fine to a certain point... by gnalre · · Score: 1

    While I agree with him to a certain point, there is a limit to how far security can be imposed on a user. Security always introduces overhead to doing a job. A user will accept that to a certain point if the reason is explained, however there is a point where putting more onerous security restrictions on a user is counter productive.

    For example, if the IT policy is that passwords must be changed every week, be 80% different, be a combination of letters, numbers, upper and lowe case and cannot contain any part of your userID. That sounds safe,however it puts a great issue for users to generate and remember passwords. so what happens? They write them down and security is compromised.

    Using the car analogy, the reason that driving is safer now is that the work of driving safely is hidden. Users do not need to work to drive safely, items like anti-lock brakes mean that users are safer without additional workload. What we need in security is ways to make things secure while at the same time reducing the effort to keep secure, for example bio-metrics.

    One example is Spam. Spam as basically been defeated not by making but more onus on the email reader but having better spam detection which means 99% of the time users are not aware spam has even arrived

    --
    Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
    1. Re:Fine to a certain point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with your argument about spam is that 1% gets through, and of that about 1% gets a response. It costs the spammer about $0.00 to send each email, and they send millions. If they get a handful of suckers then they are ahead.

      Security is like that. Attempt to engineer theuser 100 times and invariably 1 of them will bite. Try 1000000 times and that's a fair number of bites.

  9. Yes but no by Clovert+Agent · · Score: 1

    I think I understand his point, and I agree in part, but I also disagree. I think security awareness is good, but I think relying on it is bad.

    First of all, I think there will always be situations where the security technology fails - social engineering is an obvious example - and ultimately the final barrier is the security smarts of the target. Anything which raises that barrier, even a little, is a good thing. The question, obviously, is whether the benefit is worth the cost of the training.

    And secondly, I think in general that making people more aware is always good. People are way too trusting, and that covers the gamut from clicking dodgy attachments to falling for Ponzi schemes. I think it's good to teach people to question more, to think critically, and to be risk-aware. And by "teach people" I mean "starting in primary school".

  10. Security training is more than systems by Chrisq · · Score: 2

    Its about things like the call-centre operator who gets a call saying Can I check my balance ... yea hear are the details... and while you are on can you tell me my wife's balance too. Its about the shop assistant in a phone shop who has someone asking for a replacement for a phone they just flushed down the toilet - they're desperate, miles from home and have no ID on them but expect an urgent call from their aunt in hospital so need a replacement on the same account. Its about the middle level IT manager who gets a call from a very annoyed board director who says his password doesn't work and you better reset it now or head will role. Its about not lending your access card to a visitor so they can go to the canteen and you are too busy to take a break.

    Security training is very important, but it needn't concentrate on systems.

    1. Re:Security training is more than systems by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      Its about the middle level IT manager who gets a call from a very annoyed board director who says his password doesn't work and you better reset it now or head will role.

      Similar situation in a previous job: I was a tech for a secondary (high) school. The Headteacher (Principal) called while off site and asked for the local admin password for the laptop as he'd forgotten the password he'd set on the user account he was given. I, being an employee, gave it to him and thought nothing of it.

      The next day I explain the situation to the network manager and he goes MENTAL at me about data security and all manner of other policies, stating that the local admin password was also used in other places and it was a massive problem to reveal it.

      He didn't like me pointing out that password reuse was far worse than allowing local admin access to the machine (it was a loner and would be re-imaged before being sent out again). I was performance managed out of that job.

      TL;DR: We could all do with taking our own advice once in a while and ensuring that what we give as instruction passes basic sanity checking for every day use. Otherwise systems will be subverted or compromised just to get the job done.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    2. Re:Security training is more than systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its about things like the call-centre operator who gets a call saying Can I check my balance ... yea hear are the details... and while you are on can you tell me my wife's balance too.

      This is exactly the scenario where the SYSTEM should prevent. The call-centre system should have authenticated YOU directly based on the PIN you entered on the phone, and with that, the operator will ONLY be able to access YOUR accounts. Ta-da.

      No training needed for the operator at all, what he cannot do, he need not be trained not to do.

      Its about the middle level IT manager who gets a call from a very annoyed board director who says his password doesn't work and you better reset it now or head will role.

      Again, what one cannot do, one cannot be threatened/tricked to do. The middle level IT manager should NEVER have the rights to reset C-level account's password (else he could have done it and wreck havoc while any C-level person goes on extended leave).

      Only someone working through a system that requires the appropriate control (e.g. for resetting passwords for C-level accounts, approval from another C-level users, or two lower level users required, or even more middle level managers, all done through the system itself) can do it, then no amount of threatening will trick the IT manager. Another "security awareness training" made obsolete.

    3. Re:Security training is more than systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those aren't training issues, those are procedural issues. If you're in those businesses, your standard procedures should cover all of those scenarios and many more. That sort of decision should never be left to the judgment of the individual employee on the ground, no matter how highly trained.

      Everyone has off days/makes bad calls sometimes.

  11. The worst thing by drolli · · Score: 4, Insightful

    is that many companies are too lazy to even get the most fundamental things right. Why on earth would you not distribute your own CA fro your internal web services? Do you really want to train yout employees that clicking on the "accept certificate" button is an everyday thing to do? Why dont you manage to get the security settings in a way that "content from an unknown source" is not "content from you own file server"? how the hell shoud the office assistant know that this is dangerous and theoretically unusual if in everyday work the instruciton says to accepti it several times per day? why yould you enable macros in office documents for no reason and not sign the document?

    All security training, hints like "be careful when opening attachements from unknown sources" are anihilated if you train your employees everyday to do the exact opposite thing, namely constructing worflows and selecting toolsets which are requiring exactly that.

    My 2 cents on this

    a) If there is a "do not use/do x" in your security education, then something is wrong. The right way is "use/do y"

    b) Construct your standard processes in a way that your users/employees can work secure *AND* efficient.

    c) If there are new tools and your users demand these, keep an open ear! Note to the management: reserve some bugdet for it. If users find dropbox an efficient service, the right way is not to forbid it but to ask yourself why you cant provide any decent file sharing on your own servers.

    1. Re:The worst thing by gnalre · · Score: 2

      James Lyne once said that he changed to standard security certificate dialog to say "by cllicking this you kill 1000 kittens".

      No one raised an issue, not even IT.

      Which goes to show how pointless the dialog is and how far it goes in adding security

      --
      Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
    2. Re:The worst thing by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      d) if you set up security policies, ENFORCE THEM!

      Or Hire "security aware" people and trust on them.

      That's related to your point where employees are used to processing files from untrusted sources, but receive training not to do so.

      Tools is a good example for that. 2 out of 3 companies I worked for had a whitelisted set of tools you were allowed to install. It never contained either a the full set of tools you needed to do your work, nor the newest versions. So you were completly left in the dark if you were allowed to accept this auto-update or not.

      The third company went along the lines of: We've hired expert developers, they all grew up with PC, have their own machines at home - who if not them should be trusted to know what tools they need and to discern usefull tools from BonzoBuddies.

      So make up your mind. Set good, enforceable rules that work without exceptions (and go all the way and invest in a software deployment system!) or train & trust the users judgement.

      --
      bickerdyke
    3. Re:The worst thing by drolli · · Score: 1

      the dialog is pointless becaus nobody does it right. The people would pretty quickly learn that it does not kill 1000 kittens in average.

      Correct would be to write: in one of hundred times, clicking on this will cause a malware infection. If it does, it department will send 1000 killed kittens via in-house mail to your table. That's 10 kittens in average per click. Good luck.

      I am sure after one or two times burying the desktop of some office assistant under dead kittens and posting it on the companies homepage you may have your employees attention.

    4. Re:The worst thing by packrat0x · · Score: 1

      You need both methods.

      2 out of 3 companies I worked for had a whitelisted set of tools you were allowed to install. It never contained either a the full set of tools you needed to do your work, nor the newest versions. So you were completly left in the dark if you were allowed to accept this auto-update or not.

      This is the setup for employees who do not handle files from the outside world and only need internal networks.

      The third company went along the lines of: We've hired expert developers, they all grew up with PC, have their own machines at home - who if not them should be trusted to know what tools they need and to discern usefull tools from BonzoBuddies.

      This is the setup for employees who regularly work with outside files.

      --
      227-3517
    5. Re:The worst thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right. But note that you are not mixing the concepts for a single employee.

    6. Re:The worst thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The worst thing is that many companies are too lazy to even get the most fundamental things right.

      Remember the people who keep saying there's no shortage of IT talent in the US? They're the people who have trouble getting hired at companies with IT standards that low.

  12. You're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    His examples are about forms of security or safety in different areas, but that really isn't that important for the point he's making, which is not about the type of technology involved, but about human behaviour. If we recognise short or medium term consequences we're far more likely to adjust our behaviour than if the consequences only affect us in the long term or if the link between cause and effect isn't clear. With the current state of IT the link is unclear, so training people will not be very effective. Energy is better spent on adapting the technology to the limitations humans have.

    1. Re:You're missing the point by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 2

      Also in computer security, there's a lot of false-flag type attacks going on: in the modern day, something tends not to look obviously unsafe, but winds up being so (browsing the web "safely" shouldn't even be a problem, when you get down to it the browser should be keeping things thoroughly "on the web only").

  13. That balance between usability and security by erroneus · · Score: 1

    These are invariably give and take.

    People simply need to be smarter. They aren't. No amount of precautions which do not inhibit functionality will help. People want to do what they want to do. The weak link is almost always the people and you can't control them with computers. You can limit what they do, but now you're encroaching on usability.

    1. Re:That balance between usability and security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Best personal example, limiting the users from picking bad passwords by the system. Every computer where I work has a post-it note for the group login because the employees don't want to make the effort to remember it. The password? Company's three letter initials and 123, so if we were IBM it'd be "ibm123". I tear these down every time I see them, but they keep coming back up. In one case a manager had stickers ordered to be affixed to the monitors so he wouldn't have to deal with "I can't remember the password" calls from the night shift.

  14. somebody needs training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The end user training may be a waste, but we definitely need security training for management. More than once I have implemented systems that require strong passwords, hash those passwords, and perform strict certificate validation only to have the customer demand no password requirements, clear-text stored passwords, and lax certificate checking because they are lazy and their IT people are incompetent.

  15. Exactly correct by AdmV0rl0n · · Score: 2

    He is correct. User training is largely a waste of time, and both in development, and deployment, the systems are not designed or setup for security. So yes, users clicking a link is not safe, and it should be. Users opening an application and reading data should be safe, but isn't.

    These problems have to be engineered out. They cannot be socially controlled out, the audience has neither the inclination, knowledge or interest in resolving this. And even after training, once its established how you've trained your monkeys, a new method will be established that undoes the training.

    The whole industry is still in its infancy. Its building bridges that are made from cardboard, and without any form of certification or regime. This will only be resolved when it becomes apparent that software providers cannot ship things like 'our software cannot be held accountable for anything, have a nice day'. Nobody in the world making bridges gets away with 'if this bridge falls down, we are not accountable'.

    The Adobe and Java scenario is exactly like this. Both are wholly unaccountable, and yet frankly directly responsible for perhaps billions upon billions of dollars of data loss, theft, security breaches, and so on.

    There is no_fundamental_reason why people should even bother to make their software secure - so they only ally a baseline effort to the task. Until this is addressed, the rinse, shampoo, rinse, shampoo will repeat. And its actually why the security landscape is degrading. Things like Metasploit may have seemed to help. But fundamentally the white hat hacking and info security folks have ultimatly not helped. Its only highlighting how bad things are, putting guns in hands that should not have them, and making things globally worse. The vendors have not changed by very much.

    --
    We`re all equal .. Just some of us are less equal than others.
    1. Re:Exactly correct by Inda · · Score: 1

      So what happened to "Security: it's not a piece of software or hardware. It's a process."?

      It's a process and that process must be taught.

      If users are taught that giving their passwords away is wrong on every level, even to IT professions who are upgrading their work PC (happened!), and yet they still do it, they need more training. If that training involves sleeping rough for a week because they lost their job because they're too stupid to learn and follow a simple rule, so be it.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    2. Re:Exactly correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Security is a ongoing process that begins at the design level of every new services and is present in all changes to services.
      Keeping one-time "security awareness" at the hiring process is not an ongoing process, and is only the fool digging herself a grave of her own.

    3. Re:Exactly correct by AdmV0rl0n · · Score: 1

      So what happened to "Security: it's not a piece of software or hardware. It's a process."?

      It's a process and that process must be taught.

      If users are taught that giving their passwords away is wrong on every level, even to IT professions who are upgrading their work PC (happened!), and yet they still do it, they need more training. If that training involves sleeping rough for a week because they lost their job because they're too stupid to learn and follow a simple rule, so be it.

      We've just established that Bruce, and to most degree's 'I' - don't believe user training works. And the first thing you say is 'If users are taught'.
      You can teach monkeys not to do something. Which is fine. You can, really. The problem is thats not really training, its simply repetitive rinse, repeat. Once this is understood, the next social engineering attack will process the new method of countering this, and go through the flawed engineering in any case.

      I'll give you an example. You teach your monekys not to click links in email.. You rigorously enforce and train your monkeys again and again, until you are old and grey, and you hit 100% success.
      The hackers comprehend your switch. So instead of providing a clickable link, they simply provide a text string - and let the users know to copy this to the browser. And make sure to emphisise the fact that its not a link and is totally safe (yay) to paste into a browser. Monkey now has a process problem. This is not a click link. Cue robot human stupid - its a process I don't understand. I know, lets paste into the browser and que boom-baddabing-baddaboom.

      You cannot 'train' people as the solution to fundamental breakage or engineering issues. Well, you can, but your failure rates will be high, and your success rates are low. And the fact is hacking and entry is not a percentage game. Its not as portrayed as being a risk question where if the risk falls to a sort of low amount - its all ok. Hackers need single entry at high enough priv. Its a zero/ or a one digital divide. You are either compromised, or you are not. Its ruthless Its brutal. And its combatted by utter bullshit and fantasy that if you have some training, or some security, or some product - that you are OK.

      I don't blame anyone who argues with Bruce. Thats a choice and a viewpoint people hold. But as I said earlier, the real world out there is operating with eggs all in backets and the fixes are sticking plaster stupid. And the engineering is piss poor and you can do piss poor engineering because there is no real price for doing it. The bridge can fall down, and everyone shruggs. All bridges are like that. Its no one's fault. Its just how the world is. Right?

      --
      We`re all equal .. Just some of us are less equal than others.
    4. Re:Exactly correct by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Erm, partially correct.

      User security training can NOT be implemented in a way that will mitigate the effects of insecure software. This is what you are arguing and it is correct.

      Where you are incorrect is that security awareness training actually IS useful for the social aspect that secure software and processes can never fix.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  16. in a perfect world..... by Blaisun · · Score: 1

    This is a rose colored glasses view. If everything was perfectly designed, perfectly implemented, and used by knowledgeable users, sure that might work. We live in an imperfect world run by lowest bidder wins, quickest product to market, "good enough" security to not get us sued. This will not change. as long as the focus of a product is to make someone money, it will only be done "good enough" with the focus being minimum invested for maximum return. I believe the security of products are getting better all the time. But the majority of the time, the weakest link in the chain of security is the user. Why do you think that Social Engineering is so widely used? Simple really........ BECAUSE IT IS EFFECTIVE. why go through all effort necessary to exploit a system when a simple phone call can net you the same result? Technical Security can only protect you so far... you have to involve users in your security plan or you are simply keeping your head in the sand....

  17. Shit or get off the pot Bruce... by RocketRabbit · · Score: 1

    What's this we shit? Why don't you practice what you preach and design a system from the ground up with enhanced security in mind?

    I mean, it's not as if you are saying anything that hasn't been said for what, almost 20 years now. I know all the flitting back and forth to conferences and whatnot is exhausting, but to me, Bruce, you are becoming more of a Pt Barnum of security and crypto every day. Self promotion and loud noises / flashy things but in the end it's all just rehashes of what other people said before.

  18. Because software can stop human stupidity. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By far, the weakest link in almost any programme nowadays is the user. Most times people claim their account has been "hacked" is because they fell for a phishing scam. While I'm sure some companies are doing it hideously wrong, but if a couple hours of training stops even one user from giving up their password, it could save hundreds of hours of work, nevermind all of the other wonderful legal consequences.

    But no, let's just give up entirely, and let the scammers win.

  19. Completely useless? by Dereck1701 · · Score: 1

    You'll never make a computer system completely idiot proof, a more impressive idiot will ALWAYS come along. "Security Awareness training", or at least some pamphlet or something handed out to the departments is only going to help. While it is very true that the primary focus should be on securing the system as much as possible, letting the users know some of the simple rules to follow to help keep it secure is always a plus.

  20. Don't use passwords by zaax · · Score: 1

    The main failing of passwords are passwords - so get rid of them simples.

  21. So in a perfect world we wouldn't need it? by Njovich · · Score: 1

    I read the points he is saying, and I respect Scheier, especially in terms of the work he did earlier.

    He makes some interesting discussion points, but it mostly seems to boil down to that we have to fix things from an engineering perspective, and let the rules of thumb about security spread by osmosis.

    I would say, while there are still gains to be made at the engineering level, for many organizations serious about security, the low hanging fruit has already been taken care of mostly. Going further would often require complete reorganizations of the way they work, all their applications, and their network infrastructure. That is simply not an option that's on the table right now for most organizations. Also, a lot of the current weaknesses come with at least some level of social engineering. Making sure people properly notify the right people of fishing attempts, pointing coworkers to not wearing their badge, or keeping security basics into account, it is something people will only do if they believe it has some importance to them. A proper security awareness training can give them that. Yes, you can not teach everything there, but if done properly, you will give people more willingness to do something. And that can make a lot of difference when you deal with advanced threats (I hate the APT term, but have yet to come up with something more appropriate).

    Yes, 95% of security awareness trainings suck, but lets face it, 95% of everything sucks. That doesn't mean that there is nothing useful to convey.

    Perhaps Schneier has always seemed a bit out of touch with the reality in organizations, so it's amusing to read from him (from TFA):

    To those who think that training users in security is a good idea, I want to ask: "Have you ever met an actual user?" They're not experts, and we can’t expect them to become experts.

    Well, I have met actual users, and I would say they could learn about some basics like 'dont give your password in exchange for a chocolate bar offered by the coughing guy in the trench coat on the parking lot'.

    1. Re:So in a perfect world we wouldn't need it? by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      I doubt that BT security are quite so sanguine about security - I suspect that someone might be having a word :-)

      For those of you who haven't worked for BT (Bruce's employer) the Internal security team in British Telecom have a reputation for being a little intense.

  22. Partially Disagree by Evil+W1zard · · Score: 1

    Security training is a necessity, but its almost always done incorrectly. As much as it shocks us there are still hordes of workers who have no idea what spearphishing is or why anti-virus doesn't wholly protect their computer.... My belief is that once a year and at start date of the employee you have an online brief going over basic security/what to look for, reinforce the fact that the network and individual systems are monitored and let them know what the penalties can be for not practicing what they are learning. You make it so you have to click a question every 2 or so slides so they cant just click through and then the kicker is if they dont pass they dont get to take the test again. Everyone who fails has to go to an in-person briefing with security and corporate leadership.... Guarantee more attention is paid to the content when the possibility of looking like a dummy in front of the bosses is there (and yes I know the bosses will probably fail too...)

    And of course everyone should agree better security implementation within systems, networks, apps, processes and etc... should be accomplished. Thats a no brainer. But by no means should we just disregard trying to ensure the user base who has never heard of half the shit talked about on Slashdot have some kind of basic knowledge of what can go wrong when they open up furry_kittens.flv on their work machine...

    --
    News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
  23. how to get along with the job-creation rethoric? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Schneier is right, but such wise advices don't play well with the industrial rethoric of "creating jobs". Its harder and less lucrative to make good developers than sending cops to patrol and having users to buy silly security patchworks. The problems of the security industry are buried deep into its own reasoning and opportunistic behaviour.

  24. Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But some people really are security idiots who click on phishing sites!

  25. Targeted Ads at their best by JSC · · Score: 3, Funny

    And what do I see just to the right of the lead-in about how Bruce Schneier says security awareness training is a waste of time? An ad for Kevin Mitnick's Security Awareness Training.

    --
    Time's fun when you're having flies. - Kermit the Frog
    1. Re:Targeted Ads at their best by obtuse · · Score: 1

      To be fair, Mitnick's Security Awareness Training is directed at IT people & management, & so is part of Schneier's solution of helping us keep the user out of these situations in the first place. It is the sort of thing that helps us as IT professionals avoid these situations, and it's engaging. I got a quickie session, and it was very informative, and a hoot as well.

      --
      Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
    2. Re:Targeted Ads at their best by antdude · · Score: 1

      What ads.? [grin]

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  26. It's all about presenation by Quakeulf · · Score: 1

    It's all about how you present the security awareness. Start by asking a simple question: "Do you care about your profile/account/access?" Then keep it simple from there. Just one or two one-lined paragraphs or bulletpoints, or a video lasting max 30 seconds. Use emotions and feelings and pack it all up with kittens and upbeat indie music. That is how you get it into the skulls of the mediocre masses.

  27. If we could just..... by danskal · · Score: 2

    This point of view smacks of "if we just worked a bit harder/longer we'll be able to build a perfectly secure system".

    It aint gonna happen. Not for a system as sprawling as the internet, not for a system with as complex requirements as an operating system.

    The more you know about security, the easier it seems to do what is required to improve security - but you have to have very tight control of platforms to be able to follow through on implementing that security. And tight control prevents innovation. Often, security reduces the usefulness of a product.

    Convincing everyone in the IT world that they need to spend $ on educating developers and implementing security features is an insurmountable task - and even if you manage it, you still won't be done, because the security issues we understand now and have fixes for are only a subset of all security issues. New types of holes will be found continuously.

    Of course, end user training might still be a waste of money - I can't deny that.

  28. Yes, and no. by asdf7890 · · Score: 1

    systems that don't care what links a user clicks on

    Definitely. As far as is possible we should stop users accidentally doing something stupid by making sure that they can only do the right things. This is not always practical though as for a start there are factors outside our control (for the password example we can't control how the user might store and potentially distribute their credentials in other services (password managers) or in the real works (bits of paper)).

    systems that won't let users choose lousy passwords

    I can't see a way that could be implemented which is not essentially an attempt to enumerate the bad, which is never a good idea. Even if it was for the most part, some of the things that make lousy passwords are again well out of our control: there is no way in software "don't use the same credentials for everything" can be enforced.

    Security awareness is a lot more than just properly managing passwords and such - there are real world interactions that users need to be aware of so some training is definitely needed no matter how close to perfect the security in your applications is.

  29. Potentially unwanted programs by tepples · · Score: 1

    we should be investigating in technologies that detect password misuse or the unauthorised install of software on a user's PC.

    Unauthorized by whom? There are plenty of tools for web development, remote assistance, and accessibility that show up as "potentially unwanted programs" in certain spyware checkers. A web server could have been installed by a web developer testing his own web application, or it could have been installed by an intruder to serve up kid porn.

  30. does not cover social engineering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure - I agree, the system should prevent the user from picking bad passwords or clicking phishing links... but what about the social engineering attacks? thats way more of an issue.

  31. Wall to wall Schneier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've seen Schneier all over the place recently - does he have a new book coming out or something? Why is he suddenly so visible?

  32. What I don't get... by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    What I don't get... is why we even still have passwords. Why don't we all have Read only USB security dongles that confirm our identity? For banks, for work, for your medical records? The rest of the sites... Slashdot for example, who gives a crap. But a universal HARDWARE standard for sensitive info seems like a rather simple solution to do away with all this password nonsense.

    1. Re:What I don't get... by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Why don't we all have Read only USB security dongles that confirm our identity?

      Because it's probably easier to steal your identity dongle than find a good wrench for $5.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  33. consequences by nten · · Score: 1

    Telling people what they need to be doing, and then never punishing them won't work. If people start getting fired for failure to follow security practice, it would stick more. And communicating good security practice doesn't require a consultant or speaker. There are videos out there; examples of what to look for. I agree hiring a big name to train everyone at your company who uses a computer is a waste of funds better spent, but ignoring the human element is willful ignorance. It is disingenuous for someone with a security background to even hint that technology could ever reach the point that it could prevent users from insecure behavior. The fleshy computers have to get patched too, and when they stop accepting patches, you ditch them and get new ones. You find out if the patch was installed by testing them.

    --
    refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
    1. Re:consequences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people start getting fired for failure to follow security practice, it would stick more.

      Spot on. I've found that no matter what I tell users, no matter how much easier my advice might make their day, they will ignore me. As an IT person, I'm simply impotent. Why? Because the user can always go to their boss with "WAAAH ITS TO TECHNICAL" and I lose. If the user gets phished? According to Schnier and the average user, it's my fault because I'm the expert and I have no enforcement. I can say, "It's your fault because you gave out your password." But "WAAAH ITS TOO TECHNICAL" wins every time.

      Car analogy. I'm driving along and the engine seizes up. I go to the mechanic. He tells me that my car was out of oil and that I'm the one responsible for checking the oil every now and then. "WAAAH TOO TECHNICAL GIVE ME NEW CAR." Then I get a new car for free. Then one day my engine seizes up. Again, no oil. "WAAAH TOO TECHNICAL." And what do I care? All I have to do is go "WAAAH TOO TECHNICAL" and I get a new car for free no matter how bad I screw up.

  34. The ID-10-T problem by Stolpskott · · Score: 1

    The security of a computer is only as strong as its weakest link, and that weakest link is almost always the 6 inch gap between the ears of the computer user. And because the compromise of an entire network is easier to achieve once a single computer on the network is compromised, that makes the security of the corporate network only as strong as the weakest link... and every time you think you have found your company's dumbest user, you find another one who makes your previous candidate look like an IT geek.
    So you almost have to plan for "when we have a breach, how are we going to mitigate it and recover" instead of "if we have a breach, how do we hide the evidence", while knowing that the company management will almost certainly shoot down your plan on cost grounds and then fire your ass when the breach occurs. :)

  35. Institutional security doesn't work either.. by BVis · · Score: 1

    Because the problem with IT security in most organizations isn't training the rank and file, or building more-secure systems. The problem is that you can have all the IT policies in the world (coding standards, complex passwords, granular access), if they're not enforced with real consequences for ignoring/avoiding them, then it's all useless. Case in point: I once worked in a Fortune 500 company that had a pretty strict password policy (change password every 90 days, upper/lowercase/special characters required, etc). Everyone was required to adhere to the policy... except senior management, who felt it was too inconvenient. The CEO's password was the name of the company in lower case, and it never expired. Suggesting that they be required to adhere to the same policy as everyone else was a terminable offense.

    Unless people get fired for violating IT policy, the policy might as well not exist.

    --
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
  36. Other Wastes of Time by wcrowe · · Score: 1

    Other wastes of time:
    Driving School
    Hunter Safety Class
    Swimming Lessons
    First Aid Course
    Condoms

    --
    Proverbs 21:19
  37. An ORDER... like layer... like engineer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not enough to train programmer.

    We need to have a serious code of ethic and severe punitive if we don't abide by it.

    Like layer, like engineer, our job can bring disasters if we are "forced" to make it in a way that is against the code of ethic. And God knows how many time our patron ask us to do things that we are not suppose to do in our "field".

  38. Reminds me of Basic Training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You nailed and your scenarios take me back to Air Force basic training. There was a "dorm guard" appointed who had to watch over the door and ensure that no unauthorized individuals were let in. An instructor would walk up to the door and show his ID; we had to check it against a list to see if this guy is allowed in, even if it's somebody you know and trust. "One white common access card....Sgt. Jones" *looks over at list* "One white common access card....Sgt. Jones. Access granted. Please stand clear of the door sir." The instructors would do crazy shit like flip up a picture of Mickey Mouse then demand to be let in, yelling and screaming etc. Random instructors would show up out of uniform and demand to be let in for some plausible sounding reason. If you fell for any of it though and violated protocol they would tear your ass to shreds.

    Maybe we should computer users off to IT boot camp? lol.

  39. A dose of reality by doubledown00 · · Score: 1

    'The whole concept of security awareness training demonstrates how the computer industry has failed. We should be designing systems that won't let users choose lousy passwords and don't care what links a user clicks on,'

    ----

    Uh huh. And when the owner / C level individual comes over and says he wants his password to be "airplane" because that's the only one he has ever used and he's not remembering a new one, what would Bruce Schneier tell them? No? Fuck you?

    1. Re:A dose of reality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about, "We converted to 2-factor authentication, so we don't use letters any more. However, if you like you can set your pin to 24775263."

    2. Re:A dose of reality by doubledown00 · · Score: 1

      Eh. Being "gainfully employed" is overrated anyway lol.

  40. I was with him until... by ternarybit · · Score: 2
    ...he said this:

    Microsoft has a great rule about system messages that require the user to make a decision. They should be NEAT: necessary, explained, actionable, and tested.

  41. It soudns to me like they are using bad training. by gurps_npc · · Score: 2
    Here is what I consider good training:

    1) Tell people about social hacking/engineering.

    2) Tell people about common tricks like infected flash drives being dropped in parkways, calling and requesting a password, etc. etc.

    3) Warn them that sometime during the year, YOU WILL TRY TO HACK THEM.

    4) Tell them if they fall for the hack, they will not get a bonus that year. (It helps if you actually give out yearly bonuses - even $100 will be fine)

    5) Actually test them two months later.

    6) If they fail the test, send them an email and require that they take your 10 minute class again.

    I have found that if you do this, then people learn. The threat of losing even $100 bonus a year is more than enough to get people to stop being stupid.

    Note, this will not stop people from downloading things from the internet and/or playing games. But it will stop them from picking up random flashdrives and using them - as well as stop them from giving out passwords over the phone.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  42. Schneier's view is overly simplistic by tokencode · · Score: 1

    I'm surprised so many slashdotters agree with Schneier, when this view of security is overly simplistic idealism. To continue the car analogy... As with the safe operation of a motor vehicle, some responsibility lies with the operator of the vehicle and some lies in proper design and maintenance of the system. The average driver no nothing about how the air bag is designed or how crash zones work. They may know nothing about routine maintenance such as changing the brakes. If these are not done properly, no matter what actions the driver takes the car is not safe. Conversely a perfectly designed and maintained vehicle can be operated in an unsafe manner by an operator. A computer operator, as the driver a car, will always be able to operate the equipment in an unsafe manner. You might be able to make a user have a secure password, you can never prevent them from logging in their friend or falling victim to social engineering. Schneier's inability to recognize that a good security policy INCLUDES staff training brings into question his judgment.

    1. Re:Schneier's view is overly simplistic by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      It's overly simplistic, perhaps, but we already have a pretty good idea how to do it. It's just enough of a pain in the backside that nobody has bothered yet.

      One requirement for security is a human being whose job it is to reduce fraud. For example:

      • If anyone attempts a password reset, require that they authenticate themselves either in person or through two or more unique and hard-to-forge factors. For example, email and a land-line phone is hard to hack. Email and a cell phone is trivial, so that's one factor. Email an an answering machine is weak. Insist on finding the person at home. Or an in-person visit.
      • Before you accept that $20,000 EFT, call the person up and ask if they're really wiring 20 grand to Nigeria.

      And so on. The more automated things get, the more trivial fraud becomes, because there's no human being looking at it and saying, "You know, this doesn't make sense."

      Another requirement is a nearly unhackable device whose job is to present a transaction to the user, that only authorizes the transaction in response to a physical user action. This cannot be securely done in software on general-purpose devices because the system on which they are built is simply too complex, and too likely to contain bugs that allow an attacker to compromise the underlying OS, at which point the software becomes untrusted. Think "small secondary LCD panel just above your keyboard that is controlled by separate CPU with very minimal software", and you're in the right ballpark.

      However, even with all of these things, there's no such thing as absolute security. One rather ironic problem with security is that the more secure you make your system, the more complacent users get about security. The simpler something is to use, the less users are willing to think. And so on. This poses very real problems for any security in which the user plays any significant role in decision-making. In other words, even if you have the dongle or second screen or whatever, if the user gets used to assuming that they should click "Authorize" every time, you have a problem.

      To this end, it would actually be moderately useful for OS vendors to periodically present bogus requests to their users as though they were real. If the user fails, they would get an email that says, "Thank you for transferring ten million dollars to our account in Croatia" or whatever....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  43. Both sides need to contribute by ScaledLizard · · Score: 1

    Buffer overflows, heap corruption and many similar bugs are found easiest by someone who has access to the source code and can understand it. However, not all problems can be laid on the developers. Phishing is a problem that developers that can hardly prevent. Also, users need to understand URLs (http://www.google.com.somewhere.else). At some point, users are always forced to trust software they did not write, and on a modern computer that has been used for a while, no one can assure that no malicious code has been installed, whatever antivirus vendors say. However, users need to be able to detect signs of infections.

    Despite all that, clearly more security by design is needed. Reading about all the patches for Windows, Flash, Adobe Reader and Java makes me sick -- instead of building new features that are rarely needed into these systems, security should become a top priority for high-profile software. Simple mishaps put millions of users at risk. While Microsoft has at least instated measures (secure development lifecycle), similar efforts by Adobe, Oracle and Apple seem to be lacking.

    1. Re:Both sides need to contribute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Phishing is a problem that developers that can hardly prevent

      Depends. Which kind of phishing are we talking about? And more importantly, is phishing really the problem?

      Somebody phishing your address, then pays you a surprise visit: Yeah, hard to prevent. But how often does this really happen?

      Somebody phishing your bank account or credit card number: I'd say the problem that developers need to prevent here isn't the phishing. It's taking money out of the bank with basically ZERO authentication. If banks cared more about security, knowing the account or credit card number would be useless for anything but transferring money TO the account. No, the card expiry date is not a password. And the three digits on the back of the card is the worst password I've ever seen (even the one an idiot would have on his luggage is four digits).

      For something like a bank transfer, a digital signature should be the absolute minimum. Look at the German ChipTan system. A hardware device with a small screen. You use your computer to specify the transfer, enter account numbers, etc, but to authorize the transfer, you need to use the hardware device. The data is transferred to the hardware device, which shows it on its own screen, and when you enter your pin, it generates a signature for exactly that transfer. If malware changes the transaction before it is sent to the hardware device, the wrong transaction will show on the screen. Hopefully you'll notice when it says $1000000 instead of $2. If it changes the transaction after it is sent to the device (so you will see the correct transaction and enter your pin), the signature won't match, and the bank will give an error.

  44. If computers were cars? by dgharmon · · Score: 1

    01. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.

    02. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.

    03. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull over to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason, you would simply accept this.

    04. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.

    05. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive -- but would run on only five percent of the roads.

    06. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single "General Protection Fault" warning light.

    07. The airbag system would ask "Are you sure?" before deploying.

    08. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.

    09. Every time GM introduced a new car, car buyers would have to learn to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.

    10. You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off. link

    --
    AccountKiller
  45. Amen to that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Also, we have an entire antivirus industry just to pick up the badness left in the wake of broken software.

    Why don't we...y'know...fix the broken software first?

  46. Three words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Defense in depth.

    User awareness enables to a certain degree users to be more vigilant. Whether this 'control' is effective most of the time is the issue.

    When it comes to money and investing in controls, the argument can be made that it should not be prioritized on security awareness, but it shouldn't be abandoned anyway.
    Just like antivirus, useless for the most part against signature evading threats, but those common, basic, yesteryear threats are still there, and the case can be made that AV should still be around, although it is definitely not seen as the primary protection layer it once was thought of.

  47. with a test drive and credit approval but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    with a test drive and credit approval but it's just a way to get in front of a high pressure salesman.

  48. I'll "2nd that motion" (to an extent)... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Especially your noting PERSONAL interest - that's everything, more than anything. IF you "give a hoot" about something & find it interesting, you'll become involved in "how it works" as best you can @ the nuts-N-bolts levels. Otherwise, you're wasting your time (and won't do well in it either, or as you put it, "in 1 ear & out the other").

    HOWEVER: When you DO have someone that's genuinely interested (in anything really, just using a concrete specific example from my own experience in this very area - showing others how to TRULY secure a Windows NT-based OS as best as is currently possible)?

    THIS is the kind of results you get & this is a discrete example of it by quoted testimonial from THRONKA below:

    To "immunize" a Windows system, I effectively use the principles in "layered security" possibles!

    http://www.bing.com/search?q=%22HOW+TO+SECURE+Windows+2000%2FXP%22&go=&form=QBRE

    I.E./E.G.-> I have done so since 1997-1998 with the most viewed, highly rated guide online for Windows security there really is which came from the fact I also created the 1st guide for securing Windows, highly rated @ NEOWIN (as far back as 1998-2001) here:

    http://www.neowin.net/news/apk-a-to-z-internet-speedup--security-text

    & from as far back as 1997 -> http://web.archive.org/web/20020205091023/www.ntcompatible.com/article1.shtml which Neowin above picked up on & rated very highly.

    That has evolved more currently, into the MOST viewed & highly rated one there is for years now since 2008 online in the 1st URL link above...

    Which has well over 500,000++ views online (actually MORE, but 1 site with 75,000 views of it went offline/out-of-business) & it's been made either:

    ---

    1.) An Essential Guide
    2.) 5-5 star rated
    3.) A "sticky-pinned" thread
    4.) Most viewed in the category it's in (usually security)
    5.) Got me PAID by winning a contest @ PCPitStop (quite unexpectedly - I was only posting it for the good of all, & yes, "the Lord works in mysterious ways", it even got me PAID -> http://techtalk.pcpitstop.com/2007/09/04/pc-pitstop-winners/ (see January 2008))

    ---

    Across 15-20 or so sites I posted it on back in 2008... & here is the IMPORTANT part, in some sample testimonials to the "layered security" methodology efficacy:

    ---

    SOME QUOTED TESTIMONIALS TO THE EFFECTIVENESS OF SAID LAYERED SECURITY GUIDE I AUTHORED:

    http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=672ebdf47af75a0c5b0d9e7278be305f&t=28430&page=2

    "I recently, months ago when you finally got this guide done, had authorization to try this on simple work station for kids. My client, who paid me an ungodly amount of money to do this, has been PROBLEM FREE FOR MONTHS! I haven't even had a follow up call which is unusual." - THRONKA, user of my guide @ XTremePcCentral

    AND

    "APK, thanks for such a great guide. This would, and should, be an inspiration to such security measures. Also, the pc that has "tweaks": IS STILL GOING! NO PROBLEMS!" - THRONKA, user of my guide @ XTremePcCentral

    AND

    http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=672ebdf47af75a0c5b0d9e7278be305f&t=28430&page=3

    "Its 2009 - still trouble free! I was told last week by a co worker who does a

  49. Pretty obvious really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Security Awareness Training" == "Working hard today to prevent yesterdays problems tomorrow"

    Which also happens to be the TSA's motto.

  50. Re:It soudns to me like they are using bad trainin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes. That is the goal of security training. Not to fill in the security blanks left by bad programming and design.

    I have seen appropriate training stop attacks before they caused serious damage because the primary message was "If you see something odd, speak up."

    Similarly, most people do not understand how the criminal underworld works. A few stories about fraud or attacks that affect business in your sector and you have a far more cooperative employee base.

    The goal is not to make every employee part of the security staff. The goal is to help the employees understand how their behavior can affect the business and them personally.

  51. PERFECT MOMENT by Stubbyfingers · · Score: 1

    The story is Bruce Schneier slamming security awareness training--but the banner ad is for Security Awareness Training with Kevin Mitnick.

    I'm going to go have a ROFL fit now.