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USPS Discriminates Against 'Atheist' Merchandise
fish waffle writes "Suspecting that their strongly branded 'Atheist' products may be treated differently by more religiously-oriented postal regions, Kickstarter success Atheist Shoes conducted an experiment. They sent 178 packages to 89 people in different parts of the U.S., each person receiving one package prominently branded as 'Atheist' merchandise, and one not. The results: packages with the atheist label were nearly 10 times more likely to be 'lost,' and took on average 3 days longer to show up when they did. Control experiments were also done in Europe and Germany — it's definitely a USPS problem."
Maybe they are simply falling prey to Acts of God.
What the hell is an atheist product? Practically everything is an atheist product.
Yeah omnipotent beings can't do that on their own. Well, they could if hey existed.
Need to post some boxes that say 'contains god' and see if it gets there quicker than the control.
"XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, use more." - Anonymous Coward
Jesus didn't wear shoes -- why should you?
Their experiment is not correllation/causation.
They have identified something which is painfully obvious. The samples in this experiment are large enough to prove that the atheist branding has affect on the delivery and that it only happens like this in the US.
This detail difference is a strong indicator as to the motivations behind what is going on. In short, "unprofessional behavior." With all the troubles the USPS is having, these professionals should be more concerned about delivering value in the service they provide. Instead, the political affiliations (religion is politics, don't kid yourself) of participants entrusted with delivery are affecting how well they do their jobs.
When they are at home or in their groups, let them say and think whatever they want. Let them march and protest and hold up signs expressing themselves. But when they are out there delivering things? Now they are interfering with commerce. Sorry, hommies, but government doesn't play dat.
Sorry, hommies, but government doesn't play dat.
I'm thinking that results of the experiment disagree with you.
Sounds more like a USA problem than a USPS problem, this being an outlier of religious beliefs among wealthy nations. Atheist Shoes needed to send packages via FedEx and UPS in the same way to actually test this, and apparently didn't.
A true study would have equal numbers marked and unmarked. Also, did they change their origination point? If not, that could also skew the data.
If I had a dollar every time an atheist cried like a little bitch.....
I guess not reading the article makes you ask stupid questions.
Equal number of marked & unmarked packages. both sent out at the same time. both sent to the same address. They did this with 89 different people.
Be seeing you...
Does that mean ... they have no sole?
I'm sure there's a passage in the bible somewhere about delaying the goods in transit belonging to the non-believers. Probably in Levictus, alongside the bit about giving them bad haircuts if you're a barber.
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
Now repeat the experiment with labels saying things like
'porn'
'lots of money inside'
'this package contains: newest iPhone'
I'm really interested in the outcome.
New theory: people love atheist products, so they get snatched more often by the postman.
It would be really interesting to do this experiment with tracking devices that logged their GPS locations periodically over 3G, and had multiple week-long battery life. The 'lost' packages could be tracked and it could be determined where they ended up. Mail fraud is a federal crime, but if it became a big national story with media shining light on the person(s) who were caught doing it, then it would likely result in some change, people going to prison, and the system improving to better serve the recipients of packages.
shoes cant believe in god silly, they have no soul
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
The samples in this experiment are large enough to prove that the atheist branding has affect on the delivery
Large samples? 1 non-branded and 9 branded articles went missing. That's not a huge number of cases to examine. The "3 days longer" statistic seems to be massively skewed by a single non-representative parcel that took 37 days later than its counterpart. And even if their statistics were correct, all they have demonstrated is that branded parcels took longer than unbranded - they should have also sent parcels with "God is great" on them, or some such if they wanted to demonstrate the nature of the bradning was decisive.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
RTFA
each person receiving one package prominently branded as 'Atheist' merchandise, and one not
So equal numbers marked and unmarked. Can't get more equal than 1:1 ratio. (actually this was in the summary, so RTFS).
They all left Berlin
The "origination point" was outside the US. Packages that did not go through the US were not delayed or lost. Wherever in the US the problem is, the problem is at the USPS. Whether some locations in the US may or may not treat marked "atheist" mail better or worse does not make the general issue any better.
If I had a piece of earwax every time some religious person tried to make up excuses for his fellow religious men, I'd have more dollars worth or earwax than you would have.
FWIW, one of the 89 unmarked packages was lost too, so USPS is doing a bad job either way.
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This detail difference is a strong indicator as to the motivations behind what is going on. In short, "unprofessional behavior." With all the troubles the USPS is having, these professionals should be more concerned about delivering value in the service they provide. Instead, the political affiliations (religion is politics, don't kid yourself) of participants entrusted with delivery are affecting how well they do their jobs.
Unless the "lost" packages are the result of "concerned citizens" swiping them off of porches/out of mailboxes and tossing them in the trash (or into the book-burning-mobile). I grew up in a "religiously oriented" part of the US and had so many Darwin fish vandalized or removed from my pickup that I eventually switched to sticker on the inside of the rear window. After that I just got nasty notes and middle fingers from other drivers.
Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
Is Germany suddenly no longer part of Europe?
A bunch of "rebels" who wanted to be "controversial." Who then started a company.
Another theory: a shoe company has a brilliant marketing idea to get free publicity based on the fact that a lot of people don't understand the difference between what they have done (or claim to have done) and a serious scientific study.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
If your shoes have no sole you need to return them ASAP for a refund.
I once did an internship for a company that shipped second hand business (=expensive) computer hardware on pallets.
Depending on which delivery service they used (I won't name the company), the products were either wrapped in clear foil or more expensive black foil.
Apparently, if they didn't wrap it in black foil, the chances of the pallet being lost increased significantly.
More on topic; as somebody pointed out on that shoe-company site; postal services are supposed to look for suspiciously marked packages. A package heavily marked "Atheist" might be considered a be a bit suspicious, especially in the US where the issue of religion seems to be a bit more polarized anyway. Screaming a (non-)religious opinion where non it expected does generally make one stand out from the crowd.
They should have included packages marked "Muslim", "Christian", "Neo-nazi" and "Non-religious", but I doubt the shoe-company would have ended up with the same amount of free advertising.
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If you read the article, they did lose 11 packages, which is why they conducted the study in the first place.
And what, throw anything more 'suspicious' looking away 10 times as often as they normal? Sounds like a pretty stupid idea even if that was what they were trying to do.
According to TFA, the only difference was the packing tape. It was either white with no info or with Atheist - Atheist - Atheist written all over.
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
I noticed the same comment and it struck me as incredibly stupid.
USA post offices look for abnormal packages. Most drugs are sent in unusual packages so they are opened searched and resealed. If the tape said "GOD'S LAST STAND!" or "HAIL MARY!" you would have seen the same problem. One of those would have made for a better control.
I have my doubts about the drug thing. Why would people send their drugs in packages that look suspicious? Of course, if the post office only searches suspicious packages, all the drugs they'll find will be in suspicious packages, so mabye they feel like they are on the right track...
Now just because it is stupid, does not mean it can't be a real post office guideline.
Better pizza.
That is what the article says.
Maybe because your experience doesn't include shipping packages with prominent 'Atheist' branding?
Yeesssss... And less than 1% of non-Atheist branded packages were lost.
Yes, you certainly seem to be hard of understanding.
Just like Hitler, they went for the Poles first.
Large samples? 1 non-branded and 9 branded articles went missing. That's not a huge number of cases to examine. The "3 days longer" statistic seems to be massively skewed by a single non-representative parcel that took 37 days later than its counterpart
I would suggest that you take a relevant course in statistics. It is pretty obvious that you are rambling and reasoning without any understanding of the topic.
And even if their statistics were correct
The linked report clearly states the statistical methods they used and the results. If you want to criticize, just point out the incorrect statistical test and why it is not suitable in this situation, or why their conclusions are wrong. If you can't do that, you have no basis saying that their statistics are incorrect.
all they have demonstrated is that branded parcels took longer than unbranded
No. They have demonstrated that Atheist branded parcels took longer than unbranded parcels.
Anyone who's ever actually sent a package through USPS should know that they explicitly recommend you destroy or cover any non-USPS related markings or labels, explaining that it may lead to delays or failure to deliver.
=Smidge=
Actually, 178 packages.
How do you get that, from 11 missing out of 178? Even if had been 11 out of 89, it wouldn't be 'the majority'.
10 out of 89 'Atheist' branded packages were 'lost'. 1 out of 89 non-branded packages were lost.
Heh.
Their evidence suggesting the USPS discriminates against atheism is a hell of a lot stronger than any religion has for the existence of their Gods.
And they thought it said "A Theist".
They didn't want those pesky Theists getting any shoes and walking around the neighborhood knocking on doors.
Surely the research has many flaws, but they sent out 89 unmarked packages and 89 marked packages. 1 unmarked package was lost, 9 unmarked packages. Already this is much more than just a statistical anomally. The probability of this being a random occurance is incredibly slim.
If you consider losing even 2 packages out of 89 to be normal,the chance of losing 9 packages out of 89 is less than 0.001%.
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"I'll explain right after you explain to me why Afghanistan under Taliban regime should be considered average with regards religious polarization."
It isn't. Neither is the USA.
Hence the request.
USPS != UPS
They are completely different organizations. USPS is the United States Postal Service, i.e. the government corporation that pretends to deliver crap. UPS = United Parcel Service, i.e. those brown-shirted dudes who intentionally smash your package with hammers to make it fit in the truck.
"Just like Hitler, they went for the Poles first"
I thought the Nowegians were the first to the Poles (Nort and south anyway)
It's a sandal!
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
That assumes that each individual package was independent and random.
A single unlucky or freak event could affect multiple samples (for example if a sack holding 6 atheist packages gets lost or damaged).
To use a classic example. I could carry out a survey for people's favourite dog and have 99 out of 100 say poodle. If you assumed it to be truly random, the chances of that not indicating that American is a nation of poodle lovers is astronomical. However what if I then revealed that all these people had been asked in the same morning at the national poodle lovers convention? Would my survey still be nailed on? Even if I went to great lengths to randomly pick random attendees?
Your presumption that just because God *won't* do something means he *can't* do it is flawed.
There's plenty of crap a sentient being can refrain from doing that it's perfectly capable of.
Did they cross check with similar sized, similar colored, random dictionary words-labeled packages?
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
Now repeat the experiment with labels saying things like
Well, the same experiment with "fragile" boxes containing an accelerometer showed that they get beaten up far, far worse than an unmarked box.
Of course, for that one, we didn't really need more proof - I get somewhere around 100 assorted deliveries per year, all in great shape; even when they arrive in torrential rain and sit outside all day, I find them neatly bagged, perfectly safe and dry... Unless the sender stupidly marked them "fragile". Then I get a box at least badly frayed on all sides, often damp (even when delivered in dry weather, seriously, WTF), frequently with the corners blown out or other large inexplicable holes in the sides. I honestly don't think I've ever received a "fragile" package that didn't look like a second-hand box-fort from Afghanistan.
Sad, really... I mean, most of us don't exactly love our jobs. We may enjoy some parts of it, but on the whole, we'd still rather sleep in. But we get up every day to earn an honest day's pay. If you need to slack off a bit, hey, just don't get caught; but when you start taking out your lack of a fulfilling life on the very products they pay you to handle - GTFO.
In a universe sadly not our own, someone resembling Morgan Freeman appears behind those people and asks them to guess which commandment they're breaking.
USPS is the United States Postal Service, i.e. the government corporation that pretends to deliver crap.
So then, don't taunt them by putting tape with the word Atheist on it...
UPS = United Parcel Service, i.e. those brown-shirted dudes who intentionally smash your package with hammers to make it fit in the truck.
So then, don't taunt them by putting tape with the word Fragile on it...
Still wouldn't explain delays. Unless the "concerned citizens" are then later tortured by their conscience, and return the item...
Apparently applying good scientific standards to an experiment is flamebait.
I'm sure there's something to be said about blindly accepting the results of flawed experiments so long as they match your beliefs here...
While we seldom read the article it's still acceptable to read the summary.
" They sent 178 packages to 89 people in different parts of the U.S., each person receiving one package prominently branded as 'Atheist' merchandise, and one not."
Every person was sent two packages, one marked "Atheist" and one unmarked. Since the packages were sent to different parts of the U.S. we know that the delayed "Atheist" packages weren't on the same truck. That invalidates his entire post from the summary alone.
If we now read the article we also know that the packages were all sent at the same time and to 49 different states. From this we know that a normal sorting of the two packages going to the same person should have made the two packages follow the same path the entire way, going on the same truck and be delivered at the same time.
With a bad sorting and just random delivery the average delay should have been the same between the two packages.
The fact that 9 packages marked with "Atheist" never were delivered and that only one unmarked went missing could be explained with regular disgruntled employees stealing packets marked with a known brand. (Even if the shoe size is most likely wrong.)
The average extra delay of three days can not be explained that way. We can remove the out-lier in Michigan that was delayed with 37 days and get the average down to 2.5 days but it is still pretty clear that "Atheist"-market packages are specifically removed from regular deliveries to make the recipient suffer.
The thing where the delay was different between different destination also indicates that this isn't a single person early in the chain of delivery that did this but rather that it is a distributed occurrence.
There are a lot of conclusions we can't make from this test but as long as those conclusions aren't made I wouldn't call it a flawed experiment.
You should also note that the reason the shoe brand decided to do this experiment was because they noticed a trend among customer complaints in the U.S. and that some customers requested that the package were to be sent unmarked.
Actually, IAAS (I am a statistician) and the statistical tests that they used are the appropriate ones for this study. Assuming they're not faking the data, they have done the analysis correctly.
Ah, thank you -- I hadn't noticed that connection. I did think I would really like to see the data for myself, to find just such an anomaly.
If the "average of 3 days longer" statistic is really caused by that single outlier (i.e., if taking that out makes them about even), then it basically counts as a lie: while what they are saying is technically accurate, they know it will be interpreted as "the typical delivery took 3 days longer", which is not the same thing.
Hard to see how the 9:1 ratio of lost packages could be such an anomaly though...
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
The phrase is "righteous dude".
No sig today...
Anyone who's ever actually sent a package through USPS should know that they explicitly recommend you destroy or cover any non-USPS related markings or labels, explaining that it may lead to delays or failure to deliver.
Unfortunately for you, you have failed to understand their admonishment and are therefore repeating it when it is inapplicable. That applies to warning labels (e.g. ORM-D numbers) as well as bar codes and addresses, and has nothing to do with decorative tape.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The pastor of the local Presbyterian church in America isn't likely to raise up a mob to come beat you to death if you're accused of burning a Bible.
So, if the labeled and unlabeled packages traveled in pairs, why didn't the unlabeled package, coming from the same place and addressed to the same recipient, also get lost or delayed? If there was malice involved, wouldn't it affect both packages?
I grew up in a "religiously oriented" part of the US and had so many Darwin fish vandalized or removed from my pickup that I eventually switched to sticker on the inside of the rear window.
I had a darwin fish stolen from my car in Santa Cruz. Fucking religious wingnuts are everywhere. You're best off without any stickers on your car, though. They're the most reliable indicator of road rage.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I would believe it if it were done by an impartial third party with a good reputation for professional survey taking, such as J.D. Power & Associates.
Oh this one was done by Atheist Shoes themselves? Nevermind.
Logical fallacy, appeal to authority. If you have a particular problem with the statistical methods involved, which are described in the article, you should raise that issue. But your comment as it stands is utterly without merit.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
So when they repeat the experiment, and they lose 11 of the marked packages and 0 of the unmarked does is suddenly become "USPS loses infinitely more of our packages" or conversely 10 of one and 2 of the other "5 times more likely"
I don't even know the name of your logical fallacy, but creating a situation which didn't happen in your mind and then commenting on it is definitely one of them.
There's also the issue of controlling for sample bias, I'm guessing that the recipients were either existing punters or friends (hence participating in the experiment) and could thus conveniently "lose" their marked packages
And I'm sure you're a rapist and mass murderer.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Hard to see how the 9:1 ratio of lost packages could be such an anomaly though...
It's not the ratio - it's the fact that it's based on only 10 events. Just think - if one more non-branded package had gone through, the ratio would have halved. When would that next parcel have been lost? Would it have been on the 90th send, or the 180th? We don't know. If you were trying for statistical rigour, you'd want to repeat the experiment until you were satisfied that a few extra events on either side wouldn't have a significant event. Consider, if they'd had 90 branded lost, and 10 non-branded lost, the ratio would have made exactly the same as presented, but an extra event on either side would have had a far lower impact on the actual ratio.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
You're new theory fails the Occam's Razor.
What's more likely, a group of religious nuts are interfering with mail clearly against their religion in a country that is well known for it's amazingly high number of religious nuts?
Or that a bunch of people all have an incredibly keen interest in stealing the lovely and ever so popular [insert product no one has ever heard of here].
If they were actually sending iPhones then your theory would pass Occam's Razor, and above all would actually be very likely.
Of course, for that one, we didn't really need more proof - I get somewhere around 100 assorted deliveries per year, all in great shape; even when they arrive in torrential rain and sit outside all day, I find them neatly bagged, perfectly safe and dry... Unless the sender stupidly marked them "fragile". Then I get a box at least badly frayed on all sides, often damp (even when delivered in dry weather, seriously, WTF), frequently with the corners blown out or other large inexplicable holes in the sides. I honestly don't think I've ever received a "fragile" package that didn't look like a second-hand box-fort from Afghanistan.
You need to switch to a different delivery company, then. I've had that problem with DHL (seriously... they left a $600 computer monitor sitting on my front stoop because I wasn't home... thankfully my next-door neighbour saw it and rescued it so the hooligans on the other side didn't "liberate" it).
But with Purolator especially, I've never had a problem. I've also never had an issue with UPS, but I'm not in the states, so they may be different there.
I grew up in a "religiously oriented" part of the US and had so many Darwin fish vandalized or removed from my pickup that I eventually switched to sticker on the inside of the rear window. After that I just got nasty notes and middle fingers from other drivers.
So this surprises you, somehow? You freely acknowledge that you grew up in an area with a lot of fundamentalists, and are surprised that people might be offended by you loudly advertising your belief in something that disagrees with their beliefs?
You're as bad as the Christians, if you don't understand why they may be offended by that.
No, you inferred surprise. At the time I was a teenager and felt the need to distinguish my truck from all the Jesus fish, bumper stickers telling me I was going to hell, crucifixes hanging from rearview mirrors, etc. Now I don't own a car and live in a town that is ~80% atheist/non-religious.
And no, I'm not as bad as the Christians because I never vandalized their cars, accosted them on the street, kicked them out of the Boy Scouts, got the middle school science teacher fired, or protected the pedophile gym teacher because of their religious views. Personally I think that it is childish to flip off a stranger because something on their car offends you.
Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
Fire anyone who hold the shipment up, complains about the packaging or manages to lose the package. If your going to work for the postal service you need to show no basis towards any packaging.
She slaps this wad of shit with pictures of this bearded white guy (Jesus was brown!)
That isn't as bad as it sound. Historically imagery of Jesus and other biblical folk has always been adjust to the target culture. Europeans and derived use to see the blonde Jesus because that's the picture typically used in medieval Europe among white people, but if you seek around you find lots of additional Jesuses, from the brown to the asian. Chinese Jesus in particular is awesome. You have no idea that's a Christian drawing unless someone tells you, otherwise your tendency is to assume it's a random Chinese historical/mythical event or another, what with everyone looking Chinese and wearing Chinese peasant clothes and having Chinese mountains as background etc.
Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
You sound like you're excusing the fundies' behavior and blaming the victim. If that's not your intent, reconsider how you communicate.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
If the "average of 3 days longer" statistic is really caused by that single outlier
What the fuck.
..at least estimate the division in your head.. "37 D divided by 89 P ... thats not anywhere near 3.0 D / P and therefore couldn't possibly explain the on average 3.0 D / P extra travel time claimed, so anyone who suggested it is fucking stupid."
37 days over 89 packages is only 0.4157 days / package.
You seem to be pretending to use your brains by talking like maybe you might be, but for fuck sakes..
"His name was James Damore."
"1. can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother.a 2. You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship."
This is reiterated throughout the New Testament in Timothy and others but is never preached on that I've ever heard. I grew up in church, turned away from it for 6 years as an agnostic, and then came back after I finally sat down and started reading the Bible. When you actually read it, you'll be shocked at how heavily it's manipulated and abused on a daily basis for one purpose or another. If churches actually followed this rule of kicking out people who pretend to live one way and disgrace the entire congregation because of it you'd see dramatically less "duality" because the people who were there for show would no longer be there.
Churches should and do welcome people who are struggling with issues and seeking help. Everything from addictions to financial troubles. These people are not a problem. It's the people who try to visibly play the part with no intention of actually following through that continue to give the church a bad name.
"Don't teach a man to fish, feed yourself. He's a grown man. Fishing's not that hard." - Ron Swanson
Large samples? 1 non-branded and 9 branded articles went missing. That's not a huge number of cases to examine.
Actually, it's plenty. The number of lost parcels should be, roughly speaking, a Poisson distributed statistic. If we assume a fixed rate of parcel loss, the number of parcels lost from any given batch of shipments should come in at that rate, plus or minus some noise. For this type of statistical distribution, the standard deviation from batch to batch is approximately the square root of the expectation value.
For 178 parcels (89 under each condition) the observed losses were 1 parcel (1.1%) for non-atheist packages, and 9 parcels (10%) for atheist packages. If we suppose that the actual loss rate is between those two extremes, we get a loss rate of about 5.5%, and an expected loss of 5 parcels per batch of 89 parcels.
The standard deviation for that batch size is the square root of 5, or about 2.2; the two observations that we have are both about two standard deviations away from the expectation value. The likelihood of pulling a random value this far from the expectation value by chance is about 5%; the likelihood of it happening twice is 5% squared: about 0.03%.
Feel free to twiddle with different expectation values and expected loss rates; you'll find the odds are strongly against these values coming up by chance.
The "3 days longer" statistic seems to be massively skewed by a single non-representative parcel that took 37 days later than its counterpart.
Roughly 80 parcels and roughly 40 days' delay means that the mean was increased by about half a day. Discarding that one outlying datum, the atheist packages still would have averaged 2.5 days longer for delivery. Among the ones that were delivered at all....
~Idarubicin
I'm perplexed as to how that was supposed to work, though. Is there a pile marked "packages we want to delay"? If the atheist-hating zealot encounters the package, where does it go?
I could see the zealot throwing it away in his rage, but then it would never get there at all.
Perhaps there's just a giant pile, and the zealot is deliberately putting it off to the end? I suppose that's possible, but it seems like a very inefficient way to run the post office.
I'm not disputing their data; it seems solid enough. But it seems to be telling us as much about postal operations as it does about anti-atheist zeal.