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The Balkanization of Chatting

JThaddeus writes "Slashdot's own (or former) CmdrTaco has a posting on the Washington Post's website where he discusses how chat apps have overtaken SMS. Yeah, they are cheap. There's no telecom fee per message or for some number of messages per month. However 'The problem of course is that these systems are annoyingly incompatible with each other. My phone can buzz with chat notifications from 3 different apps at any moment. My desktop has even more scattered across browser tabs and standalone apps.' Ditto, nor do I want to hassle learning some app or trying to understand its who's-listening settings. I'll stick to email and to occasional SMS."

242 comments

  1. Come back by Zerth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IRC still loves you.

    1. Re:Come back by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Informative

      IRC is in fact still a robust system for talking to people by text. Data organized into relevant streams called channels, with mechanisms for self-policing built in. There's a lot of modernity to, say, skype, but fundamentally, IRC has all the basic mechanisms done well in an open way. But unlike these services, IRC is automatically balkanized, not only do your friends have to use the same technology, they have to use the same IRC networks.

    2. Re:Come back by trazom28 · · Score: 2

      Once mIRC was released to the masses, however, IRC mostly crashed and burned, in my opinion. You went from a smaller group of people who could discuss things intelligently (even non-geek topics) to a flood of CTC? ASL? and similar. I still keep in touch with a pile of friends from IRC of the old days.. but I doubt any still go to the channel itself anymore.

      --
      {} ------ When I think of a good sig, I'll put it here
    3. Re:Come back by Hentes · · Score: 1

      Yeah, shame it grew so old. IRC is outdated.

    4. Re:Come back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I love IRC. But I still need to communicate with people who are on other messaging systems, which is why I love BitlBee too.

    5. Re:Come back by localman57 · · Score: 2

      So... You're saying balkanization is a good thing?

    6. Re:Come back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First thought as well.

      One of the first things I did when buying a raspberry pi was set up an IRC server on it. We use it with most of the class now.

      I am however pretty sure that the only reason we use this rather than facebook is because I refuse to use facebook. So whenever they need me, their options are a bit more limited.

    7. Re:Come back by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Any decent IRC client can connect to any number of networks. You can also use bitlbee to access IM networks as if they were IRC networks. IRC clients are more powerful than IM clients, generally coming with scripting, so this approach is very useful.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:Come back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's exactly how balkanization happens.

      Power/popularity grab on new/old service where a few refuse to stay/go. Now everybody needs 2 comms.

      Repeat until you have 50 comms like today.

    9. Re:Come back by LMariachi · · Score: 1

      I don’t know what networks or channels you hang out on but I never see any “a/s/l?” type shit on any I’m ever on, whether they be social or technical or hobby-related. If a newbie does come on acting inappropriately or just not in keeping with the tenor of the channel (e.g. CAPS LOCK PERMANENTLY ON,) they’ll realize they’re out of line and shape up, get bored and /part, or get /k’ed if they’re really obnoxious.

    10. Re:Come back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IRC, like emacs, pretty much has a feature to solve every problem...except the problem of having too many features.

      Sometimes people want it simple. Click. Talk. Done. IRC is not that.

    11. Re:Come back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or numerous comms, most of which you can use through bitlbee. My only chat/IM client is my IRC one. it's brilliant.

    12. Re:Come back by macraig · · Score: 2

      No, he's tacitly admitting he doesn't know what Balkanization is. I'm guessing he doesn't live in a Balkan state....

    13. Re:Come back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IRC + Bitlbee

      https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Bitlbee

      http://wiki.bitlbee.org/

    14. Re:Come back by macraig · · Score: 1

      Whoops... the GP of your comment, that is.

    15. Re:Come back by macraig · · Score: 1

      Balkanization doesn't mean what you think it means. Back to History 101 with you.

    16. Re:Come back by godrik · · Score: 1

      That could be easily solve in a jabber like way: you just need to add the server at the end of the login. talk to ikanreed@effnet

    17. Re:Come back by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      It's as appropriate a usage as the summary's. Historical accuracy of metaphorical language is not as important as parallelism in communication.

    18. Re:Come back by macraig · · Score: 1

      Balkanization means exactly the opposite of your attempted usage. TFS doesn't misuse it.

    19. Re:Come back by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      I don't see how new IRC networks spawning over the course of time and dividing the IRC user base with lines separating differing subcultures is not balkanization. But I am pretty sure that that it's definitely not the opposite. You think I'm having trouble with high school history, whereas you've got trouble with kindergarten vocabulary.

    20. Re:Come back by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      What chatrooms are you checking?

      Try #pfsense, or #powershell, or #exchange, or #{somethingITrelated}. One assumes if youre going into a discussion on Powershell the first thing you type isnt going to be "ASL", especially since we have these things called "channel operators".

    21. Re:Come back by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      there are thousands of servers and probably hundreds of thousands if not millions channels. I for one have not seen a/s/l since the mid 90s myself. Almost every topic I enjoy and would want to chat with others about has an IRC to this day. yes Im a minority ( /. reader) but still

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    22. Re:Come back by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2

      No, he's tacitly admitting he doesn't know what Balkanization is. I'm guessing he doesn't live in a Balkan state....

      Okay, I thought it said Belkinization and wondered what electronic accessories had to do with it. Whew. [ Must get more coffee... ]

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    23. Re:Come back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nope.

      IRC is not encrypted, suffers from netsplits, and is difficult for new people to understand the functions. Ironicly Skype has a lot of the exact same functions.

      17 years ago we had ICQ.
      13 years ago we had Yahoo!, AOL Instant Messenger, and MSN Messenger
      10 years ago we had Skype!

      ICQ was bought by AOL and then nothing done with it, so it stagnated and only became popular in russia
      AIM was on Mac's before the messenger application, so it originally had the blessing of Apple, not so anymore
      MSN was killed off when Microsoft bought Skype

      Right now, on the desktop, everyone uses Skype. Unless of course they are playing a MMORPG in which case less-bloated software is used like teamspeak or raidcall.

      Pretty much Skype has replaced four things
      - IRC
      - ICQ/AIM/MSN/Yahoo
      - Basic Email
      - SMS

      That's pretty good, but microsoft owning it now means it's going to stagnate, get more bloated with ads and microsoftism's and eventually die off like MSN did when the next great chat application comes out. If microsoft wants to prevent that, they need to:
      1) Ensure Skype is available on ALL platforms
      2) Remains interoperable with third party software and hardware
      3) NO F***ING ADS FOR ANYTHING

      The ads are what makes people switch to third party software, Chat tools are highly inappropriate venues for ads of any sort to be used on. The reason is that the chat software needs to be lightweight, and the software's constant pulling of ad content adds lag to the conversations, and when Y/AIM/MSN were using flash/silverlight type ads... making the software have a huge memory footprint that is just not necessary.

      Skype has problems...
      - On all mobile devices, joining a chat in progress results in downloading 2 months worth of data... this is going to sting if the data is coming over GPRS/EDGE/1X
      - On desktop devices, skype often results in lagging all other software on the machine, so much so that players no longer use skype with MMORPG's

    24. Re:Come back by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      The wheel is old too, but calling it outdated just makes you look like you don't understand how it works. Same here.

      IRC is fine, its only problem was shitty clients. EFnet was dumb on a number of levels for trying so ridiculously hard to remain the wild wild west of chat (which ironically is why I stayed there) but there is nothing about any modern chat network that makes it inheriently better for 'chat' than any thing current until you start talking about voice chat.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    25. Re:Come back by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Any good channel had no problem dealing with mIRC lusers, it wasn't exactly difficult to weed out the ignorant masses. For fucks sake a simple botnet deals with the whole CTC/ASL issue.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    26. Re:Come back by r2kordmaa · · Score: 1

      IRC turns 25 this year(a bit older than me), but its still going strong and i bet it will be going strong 25years in future just the same. It might not be as popular as percentage of internet users as it once was, but i wager total number of servers/channel/users is greater than ever

    27. Re:Come back by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 3, Funny

      You must be out of your Balkan mind.

    28. Re:Come back by westlake · · Score: 2

      IRC still loves you.

      But no one loves their IRC chat client.

      I say that as someone who has been using mIRC since 1995 --- and still consider it best-of-breed for Windows.

      The fundamental problem is that IRC chat clients remain frozen in time while AIM and its successors stripped chat and messaging clients of their intimidating technical complexity and geek jargon.

    29. Re:Come back by antdude · · Score: 1

      Ditto. I still use it for chat with geeky/nerdy friends, play text based games hosted by Rbot (other cool features as well), etc. :)

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    30. Re:Come back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet irc is still not much about chatting between people.

      It's power wars and stupid memes for the most part.

      (oh but "obscure channel" i'm a mod on is totally just for chatting! of course theres nobody there and i can't tell you what it is...)

    31. Re:Come back by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      My guild uses TeamSpeak3, Vent is slightly more common and quite a few groups use Mumble.

      TS3 is streets ahead of TS2 for quality, and not-for-profit licenses are free. We're pretty lucky in as much as we get free hosting of the server as well.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    32. Re:Come back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You want him to pull a Widenius?

    33. Re:Come back by ttucker · · Score: 1

      Right now, on the desktop, everyone uses Skype.

      I have never, ever, not even once, been able to stand Skype for long enough to use it.

    34. Re:Come back by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 1

      On my PC I use Pidgin, this is an irc client as well as supporting all the major IM networks. It even supports steam chat. It doesn't support skype chat but that is skype's fault and I don't have a facebook account so I can't say whether support in that area has been fixed. It is open source, someone should just set up an android port project. The net says this would be complicated and difficult but worth it IMO.

    35. Re:Come back by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      If I were Microsoft, I'd be temped to make "ASL" a built-in Powershell command.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  2. vulcanization of chatting apps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ....fascinating. (arches eyebrow)

    1. Re:vulcanization of chatting apps by hardill · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm sure rubber covered chat is called something else....

    2. Re:vulcanization of chatting apps by fat_mike · · Score: 1

      He's averaging one article every 3-4 months and like 5 comments.

      His ego must be crying.

    3. Re:vulcanization of chatting apps by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      That sure explains all the confusion in the #gimp channel.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
  3. Didn't Trillian do this? by trazom28 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Back in the pre-SMS days, http://www.trillian.im/ Trillian did this nicely. You would think there would be an app to combine all as well. Couldn't be that hard if it's been done once before.

    --
    {} ------ When I think of a good sig, I'll put it here
    1. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Tog+Klim · · Score: 5, Informative

      pidgin does it everywhere for free, and it can do SMS via AOL.

    2. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Freedom+Bug · · Score: 0

      "everywhere" is a bit of a stretch. Pidgin doesn't support any of the most popular networks: whatsapp, bbm, ...

    3. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You would think there would be an app to combine all as well.

      There is, it's called BlackBerry Hub and it works awesomely! :)

      -AC

    4. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      Trillian was it's own worst enemy. If you all have to use the same app in order to span multiple messaging platforms, then what the fuck good are all the different messaging platforms. Everyone I know who used trillian eventually dropped it when they realized that all of their friends really just used X (where X was the social platform du jour.) What they need to "invent" is a messaging *platform* that does it all for you (i.e. collects the message data from different providers on a server and streams it together where it can be read by any number of compatible clients)...

    5. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What they need to "invent" is a messaging *platform* that does it all for you (i.e. collects the message data from different providers...

      uhm someone already has done this on mobile -> BlackBerry Hub API

      -AC

    6. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by localman57 · · Score: 1

      What they need to "invent" is a messaging *platform* that does it all for you (i.e. collects the message data from different providers on a server and streams it together where it can be read by any number of compatible clients)...

      Where the hell is that dripping sound coming from? Oh. Never mind. It's an army of "Terms of Service" laywers all salivating in unison.

    7. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      What they need to "invent" is a messaging *platform* that does it all for you (i.e. collects the message data from different providers on a server and streams it together where it can be read by any number of compatible clients)

      The problem is that the chat services want you using their network, through their client. They will block attempts to use another client. Why? Well, if you use another client, who can be sure you're viewing their advertising? This is why Skype, for example, is so resistant to reverse engineering.

      What you're looking for is called Jabber; it already exists. The problem is that the chat networks don't want to play ball.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    8. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by tgd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "everywhere" is a bit of a stretch. Pidgin doesn't support any of the most popular networks: whatsapp, bbm, ...

      Facebook: 1b users
      Skype: 700m users
      MSN: 500m users
      etc ...

      I don't think "most" means what you think it means.

    9. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by ilsaloving · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You mean like XMPP, which is an official chatting protocol that allows for virtually every method of communication currently in use today?

      Google Talk uses that, but nobody else does, because all these companies like having total control of their messaging networks and have no business interest in playing nice with others.

    10. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      I think he meant his favorite networks.

    11. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Most popular networks with whom? I've never heard of either of those. They sound like flavour of the month chat apps for iPhone tweens.

    12. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by ameen.ross · · Score: 1

      And isn't FB chat XMPP? Meaning it has interoperability built-in?

      --
      $(echo cm0gLXJmIC8= | base64 --decode)
    13. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      I'm guessing facebook, in contrast, would intentionally and quickly break anything that doesn't use it's messaging system to force you to use it since you would see less ads from it then. And that's one of the main things I would want from such a program: not having to use facebook's shitty app and see shitty ads.

    14. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we use XMPP at http://www.LiveFanChat.com ....I think you'll find a lot of other companies do as well.

    15. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL.

      Blackberry isn't mobile any more.

      It's dusty, faded and relegated.

    16. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by ottothecow · · Score: 3, Insightful
      He clearly was referring to the sms-replacement systems. Yes, people talk on facebook chat from phones, but its not the same as whatsapp, bbm, imessage, etc.

      Honestly, I think imessage is something apple has mostly done right. You go to compose an SMS and it detects if the recipient has a compatible device. If so, it sends it as a data packet through imessage; if not, it sends an SMS. The thing that they have done stupidly wrong is that all mutli-recipient messages coming from an iphone are sent as an MMS (picture message, even if it is only text) rather than a standard SMS text message. If you have any friends who don't use smart phones, have a carrier that charges 2-5x as much for MMS as SMS (50c vs 10c), or use google voice, this is fucking terrible.

      Old phones are quite slow to open these messages. Android phones don't even show a preview of the text (since MMS mesages can carry a subject line which is displayed with the notification). Google Voice users on any platform can't receive MMS messages so they just completely miss your text. Anyone who pays per message could end up wasting a lot of money to read your text since not all carriers include picture messages in their standard texting plans. All of this so people can see a list of recipients and reply-all? Reply-all sucks most of the time and if you really want to do this, why not just email everyone...if they are receiving it and responding, they probably have a smartphone with email anyways.

      --
      Bottles.
    17. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blackberry is ... dusty, faded and relegated

      Only to the ignorant and uninformed...

      While they're certainly not hip, or even cool at this point, they're also definitely NOT dead (hipsters and fashionistas desires notwithstanding), and they are innovating (you were, afterall, just given a use-case example where they leap-frogged the market...)

      -AC

    18. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are countless apps just like that, the problem this submission is about doesn't really exist.

    19. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never heard of whatsapp either, but bbm is the flavour of all time chat app for Blackberry doofuses.

    20. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by GreyFish · · Score: 1

      You can use an xmpp client with facebook chat. You can also use an XMPP client with MSN messenger (if you implement microsoft's auth goop). unfortunatly neither facebook or microsoft have enabled federation with there xmpp servers so they are still walled gardens, just walled gardens you can bring your own client to.

      https://www.facebook.com/sitetour/chat.php
      http://www.macnn.com/articles/11/12/15/ichat.now.able.to.connect.to.all.im.networks/
      http://blog.process-one.net/details_on_msns_xmpp_server/

      XMPP is the way to go, run your own server with ejabberd, prosody or openfire.

    21. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Nerdfest · · Score: 1

      iMessage uses it underneath apparently, but added proprietary extensions. It would have been nice to see someone other than Google get behind XMPP. I'm getting tired of dealing with a bunch of proprietary protocols that don't add any value.

    22. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Trillian and Pidgin do it if you don't mind having to manage multiple accounts and don't mind it only working on the platforms they choose to support. There's no reason we can't have a real open messaging system. In fact we do with XMPP but no one wants to use it so they can lock you in and google who claims to be all about being open made their XMPP based software incompatible.

    23. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, I've been using Facebook chat with iMessage on Mac OS X for well over a year now. No issues yet.

    24. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      I've never even heard of the two you list.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    25. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Facebook chat supports XMPP login (which I do use via Pidgin), so it is easy to use with desktop clients, but it is a pretty minimal XMPP implementation. Most importantly, it doesn't support federation, so you can't send IMs between, say, Facebook chat and Google Talk users. Additionally, it doesn't allow users to set their statuses (it somehow decides to set people as away automatically based on them being idle, I think).

      Also, the GP mentioned Skype, but Pidgin only sorta supports Skype: the Skype app has an API allowing other applications like Pidgin to integrate Skype into their own UI, but you still have to have the Skype software running in the background.

    26. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      google who claims to be all about being open made their XMPP based software incompatible.

      What's incompatible about it? I use Google Talk as my primary IM network these days (mostly because most of IMing is with people who use the IM client in GMail), and I use it through Pidgin on desktop and Telepathy on my phone (Nokia N9), both of which work fine and seem to support everything (well, I've never actually tried voice/video chat on my desktop but it doesn't have a camera or microphone either).

    27. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Honestly, I think imessage is something apple has mostly done right. You go to compose an SMS and it detects if the recipient has a compatible device. If so, it sends it as a data packet through imessage; if not, it sends an SMS.

      With one very annoying side effect, when I go abroad and turn off my data service the messages are routed to /dev/null without any notification to me or whoever was trying to send me a message despite most people thinking they're sending me a SMS. There really should be a way for me to inform the service that this phone will be in SMS-only mode, reject and redirect to SMS. Either that or force all operators to give me sane data prices worldwide (what the locals are paying + Internet costs ~= what the locals are paying), but I think that's slightly harder...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    28. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      You mean like XMPP, which is an official chatting protocol that allows for virtually every method of communication currently in use today?

      Google Talk uses that, but nobody else does, because all these companies like having total control of their messaging networks and have no business interest in playing nice with others.

      Well, just look at what adopting the SIP protocol for VOIP is doing for standardization. I mean, it was all great but now if you adopted the standard you'll probably have to pay BT Patent Trolls or they'll sick their 99 submarines on you. So, that's why, "Screw open standards", buddy. At least with a closed / proprietary solution it's harder for trolls to find out what BS to sue you over. Patents, once again, stifling progress in every conceivable way.

    29. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by TobesWSU · · Score: 2

      You can disable the group MMS and have multi-recipient messages sent as individual text messages to each recipient. Not ideal, but there's no standard way to do group messaging smartphones/dumbphones/etc. AFAIK. Settings->Messages->Group Messaging

    30. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by TobesWSU · · Score: 1

      I've never traveled outside the US with my iphone, but I've sent/received texts via SMS/imessage fine between my brother's iphone and mine without problems. If my phone and his have a good enough data signal it'll send it via imessage but if one of us doesn't or one of our phones is off or in airplane mode or something it'll send via sms. Maybe turning off iMessage via settings->messsages when traveling would help?

    31. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one under 70 uses a blackberry

    32. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      mOD wAY uP pLEASE.

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    33. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That just means you are out of touch. And have you really not heard of BlackBerry Messenger?

    34. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe Facebook uses Jabber for its messaging, so you should be able to set it up to work with any client that supports Jabber. That certainly was true when I tried it a few years ago, and I don't think it has changed. Using an open standard is kind of the opposite of "quickly break[ing] anything that doesn't use it's messaging system".

    35. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      The fax machine suffered badly from the same problem, they were invented in the 1930's, they did not become popular until the 1980's when manufacturer's agreed on a standard comms protocol allowing any fax machine to talk to any other fax machine. With the fax, not "playing nice" prevented the emergence of a new market for over half a century.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    36. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have been unable to log into the facebook xmpp server for a while now, I think they have closed it from 3rd party clients.

    37. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Official? What are you talking about?

      Either way, diversity is good, if people can't choose just one messaging app it's their problem.

    38. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by ladoga · · Score: 1

      I can confirm that chatting with Google Talk accounts works using 3rd party XMPP servers. XMPP is actually the only IM protocol (if screen+irssi on remote server isn't counted) that I use with my phone (N9 also) and it works through the phone's integrated messaging client (telepathy). Video and voice calls using XMPP are bit flaky, but for simple messaging it's great.

    39. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It still works. I logged into the xmpp server yesterday night.

    40. Re:Didn't Trillian do this? by Rademir · · Score: 1

      Yes, mod this up! Perhaps the most disturbingly true post in the thread.

      ObTopic, it is actually an excellent idea, presuming of course these lawyers can be kept at bay.

      Back! Back!

      --
      ourpla.net is your planet
    41. Re: Didn't Trillian do this? by Sigg3.net · · Score: 1

      The idea is great but Apple shouldn't have the key. Telcos have a delivery guarantee for SMS (not only that it gets there but that it gets there in time) while Apple doesn't.

      Disclaimer: work for a carrier that sells Apple phones, so I have the telco's perspective and the Apple customer support.

  4. Ob. XKCD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
    1. Re:Ob. XKCD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, that was pretty offtopic and pretty harsh. But dang, if I couldn't agree more.

    2. Re:Ob. XKCD by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      It means in real life, you're an unoriginal hipster doofus.

      Better that than a belligerent turd.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    3. Re:Ob. XKCD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You spend a lot of time alone. Insulting people anonymously on the internet.

      And he's not clever?

    4. Re:Ob. XKCD by localman57 · · Score: 2

      The ironic thing is that the rants that follow are becoming almost as predictable as the xkcd posts. Soon it will be Oblig XKCD, followed immediatly by Oblig XKCD Rant...

    5. Re:Ob. XKCD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Normally, one would ask, "who peed in your Cheerios this morning?", but it sounds like someone went all 2 Girls 1 Cup on them instead.

    6. Re:Ob. XKCD by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      Nothing better than two AC's goin at it!

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    7. Re:Ob. XKCD by Kittenman · · Score: 1

      Nothing better than two AC's goin at it!

      Damn right. Reminds me of a really good XKCD comic I saw ... wait a second ...

      --
      "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
    8. Re:Ob. XKCD by TranquilVoid · · Score: 2

      It was funny to read when it came out.

      Fortunately there's an xkcd about your attitude.

  5. Not just chatting. Forum discussions suffer, too. by mfarah · · Score: 4, Informative

    Back in the day, there was *one* discussion forum: Usenet. It was everywhere, and all servers connected to it. Now, there are *thousands* of disconnected forums, dozens of "forum software packages", etcetera. Even systems that try to connect distinct forums (Disqus) aren't necessarily the most popular option.

    --
    "Trust me - I know what I'm doing."
    - Sledge Hammer
  6. i guess they are popular outside the USA by alen · · Score: 2

    considering that every carrier here has unlimited minutes/SMS plans by default

    1. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No they don't. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of users don't consider the most expensive plans to be the "default".

    2. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by StingyJack · · Score: 1

      No they don't. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of users don't consider the most expensive plans to be the "default".

      The data plans are what is limited and expensive. Free/unlimited SMS comes with most of the basic packages.

    3. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by aaronb1138 · · Score: 1

      Also, most providers in the US like to tell you that you have unlimited SMS, unlimited data, and then ding you with per message charges for MMS.

      Frankly, I would love to see a provider go with 2 simple tiers: Unlimited Data (including calls, sms, and everything else they are providing via IPv6 networking). Purely Metered data at pennies or less per MB (for people who just keep a phone for emergencies).

    4. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by pspahn · · Score: 2

      I am only mildly surprised to learn that people are still paying for text messages. But then, I haven't had a cell plan for a couple of years now.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    5. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pay about 10 euros a month and have 5000 free SMS and 2 hours free calling. Those 5000 sms may as well be unlimited to most people.

    6. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      You don't have kids do you?

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    7. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by alen · · Score: 1

      even for prepaid plans $50 in the US buys you unlimited minutes/SMS and a few GB of data

      the unlimited minutes means to any carrier including land lines in the USA. i don't even have a home phone anymore because there is no reason to.

    8. Re: i guess they are popular outside the USA by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      I pay 99 nis/month for unlimited voice/sms/3g data, plus free international calling to around 40 countries, including the US. That's between $25 and $30 a month, depending on the exchange rate.

    9. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pay £15 a month, actually found the provider on a /. advertisement. (giffgaff)

      400mins
      Unlimited SMS
      Unlimited Data (i havnt really used/abused it but i've not had any issues with using 2-3GB of data per month.)
      Unlimited same network minutes.

      You can get even more economical packages for £10 and £12.

      All of these are unlimited texts, no contract, no obligation, take it or leave it. You provide the phone, they provide the SIM.

    10. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      From what I can find, the only providers that include unlimited SMS in their lowest-tier plans are those that have actually eliminated their traditional, sub-$50 basic plans entirely, leaving only the premium, everything-included plans.

      Here's what a quick perusal of websites turns up, using a Texas zip code when it asks for one:

      • T-Mobile: The basic plan is $50/mo and includes unlimited messaging.
      • AT&T: The basic plan is $40/mo, but charges per-message. Unlimited messaging can be added on for $20/mo, so you get it for: $60/mo.
      • Sprint: The basic plan is $40/mo, but charges per-message. The cheapest plan that includes unlimited messaging is $70/mo.
      • Verizon: The cheapest plan they even offer is $80/mo! Yeah, it includes unlimited texts, but for more than any of the other three.
    11. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's probably the stupidest comment I've ever read on /. in the 15 years I've been reading. Why would anyone choose free text messaging when they could pay $30 for unlimited SMS? I have no idea why anyone would do such a thing

    12. Re:i guess they are popular outside the USA by dwye · · Score: 1

      What part of "outside the USA" did you not understand? Sorry, Texas, you wanted to be annexed, well, you were. No going back, now.

      Now, if you can get something from Europe for a Texas address, that would be interesting. T-Mobile isn't mostly owned by Deutche Telekom, anymore, so it doesn't count.

  7. "Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

    >> how chat apps have overtaken SMS. Yeah, they are cheap.

    Chat apps are cheap? I thought they were all free.

  8. Re:Not just chatting. Forum discussions suffer, to by trazom28 · · Score: 1

    True, and Usenet could be handy. But basically it became a spam forest, and you'd have to wade thru 200 spam emails for one on the topic. Maybe if they would have developed filters for it, it could have gone on further.

    --
    {} ------ When I think of a good sig, I'll put it here
  9. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by ericloewe · · Score: 1

    You still have to pay for data, which is far cheaper than the thousands of bucks per GB cost of an SMS

  10. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by Tester · · Score: 1

    >> how chat apps have overtaken SMS. Yeah, they are cheap.

    Chat apps are cheap? I thought they were all free.

    WhatsApp (the most popular one) is not free...

  11. So he's not entirely well informed on this topic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    FTA:

    No single app wraps them conveniently together.

    Uhm, apparently he's in the dark about a key feature of the new BlackBerry OS: BlackBerry Hub API

    I love having one place where all of my message sources are aggregated, sorted and accessible, and it directly addresses the issue he's raising. If he was fully cognizant of the industry, Hub would've at least warranted mention...

    -AC

  12. This is new? by Fishchip · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Jabber, ICQ, AIM, MSN Messenger, Yahoo Chat, IRC, entire websites devoted to nothing but realtime chat... did I see more of a problem back in the 90's than there actually was and now it really is a soul-destroying issue in 2013? Or is this just rehashing 15-year-old+ news?

  13. Blame The Users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Using a chat app to bypass the charges for SMS makes sense, especially when you consider the usury rates that the mobile carriers charge.

    The downside of course is you lose the biggest advantage of SMS, near universal compatibility for text and multimedia messaging.

    But, it is the app vendors that are really at fault for the incompatibility issues. They each seem to feel that they will rule the world and therefore, it's fine for them to use their proprietary protocol and system. While there are several protocols/standards available, if the simply settled on the excellent and free Jabber/XMPP protocol they could have a (multimedia)messaging app that is widely compatible with existing services and future services. Several major providers, including Google already support the XMPP protocol.

    But, app vendors aren't interested in compatibility, they all want their own walled garden with the mistaken assumption that theirs alone will be a runaway success. Which brings us to our present situation.

    Now, you the user can change all that. You could buy an unlimited SMS plan. Or you could use only messaging apps that support XMPP. But, if you choose to keep hopping from one proprietary platform to another, Facebook, Twitter, Vines, whatever-today's-fad-is, then you will suffer the limited reach of your incompatible messaging app.

    Enjoy.

    1. Re:Blame The Users by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      facebooks chat has xmpp frontend so you can connect xmpp chat programs like pidgin to you facebook account unfortunately there is no talking out side of the facebook network with it.

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
  14. Pidgin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just use pidgin. One app to rule them all...

    1. Re:Pidgin by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      no android app, no ios app no blackberry app and no windows_RT/phone_8 app. Pidgin is desktop only and they don't seem at all interested in porting it.

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    2. Re:Pidgin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pidgin and Telepathy work grate on maemo/meego

    3. Re:Pidgin by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      pidgin is the GUI on top of libpurple.

      libpurple is already available on all of those (except maybe RT/phone due to silly runtime restrictions).

      You wouldn't run a desktop app on your phone or tablet if you had a clue either.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    4. Re:Pidgin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what? There are dozens of XMPP client on each platform. Why would anyone still use an IM protocol not based on XMPP in 2013 is beyond me.

  15. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bandwidth isn't free. Chat apps use bandwidth.

  16. How to monetize an open standard. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    For sending text messages. Do you want to have ads? Do you want your chats monitored and your data sold? Do you want to pay a monthly, weekly per message fee for your messages that you send? A government who will offer the service for free, you pay for it in taxes.

    For standard SMS text messages they get somehow added to your phone bill, I personally think they should be a LOT CHEAPER. But you do get a common protocol, because everyone else is doing it.

    The other texting methods are incompatible with each other because they all have different rules on how they are funded and supported. The monetary gain must be related to the volume of the texting.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:How to monetize an open standard. by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For sending text messages. Do you want to have ads? Do you want your chats monitored and your data sold? Do you want to pay a monthly, weekly per message fee for your messages that you send? A government who will offer the service for free, you pay for it in taxes.

      For standard SMS text messages they get somehow added to your phone bill, I personally think they should be a LOT CHEAPER. But you do get a common protocol, because everyone else is doing it.

      The other texting methods are incompatible with each other because they all have different rules on how they are funded and supported. The monetary gain must be related to the volume of the texting.

      really then how come email does not suffer the same problem? It works on all platforms has free services that all work together, and has free clients with no adds. what is the difference here?

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    2. Re:How to monetize an open standard. by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Speed.

      Gmail for instance takes a little bit of time for a message to get from the SMTP inbound connection to someone's inbox.

      Depending on the day, I've seen yahoo take hours to get things into the inbox AFTER their servers have got the message.

      Good mail systems do it instantly, others, not so much.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    3. Re:How to monetize an open standard. by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      really then how come email does not suffer the same problem? It works on all platforms has free services that all work together, and has free clients with no adds. what is the difference here?

      The difference is that the email system was created before the internet was monetized, and the current chat systems except for irc were all created afterwards.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:How to monetize an open standard. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Early on the cost was part of your ISP fee. Now other vendors monetize on adds based on you using their system.
      If you are paying a wireless company part of the Fee is texting service that is rather platform independent. However because wireless companies have made texting a cash cow, they made it a technology that people will try to avoid. Thus using other texting services, that are cheaper.

      Besides you could in theory use your email to be just as efficient as texting. However because the platform was so open, it got abused with Spammers. So the texting programmers decided to make a more of a closed system to try to reduce this problem.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:How to monetize an open standard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > before the internet was monetized

      I think the word you were looking for is "commercialized".

  17. Usenet's death report has been greatly exaggerated by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

    I'm not sure you actually know what usenet is, and you either never use it or you forgot how it works (note the present tense.) There are moderated and unmoderated groups. The Linux Kernel Mailing List, which is used in the development of the Linux Kernel, is one example of a still thriving newsgroup.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  18. Re:frost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DHS, FBI, CIA etc

  19. Re:Usenet's death report has been greatly exaggera by trazom28 · · Score: 1

    Good to know and hear - I have not used it for years because it became useless pre-moderated, and my current ISP (who I've been with for 10+ years) doesn't carry newsgroups. Glad to know that it's at least in part working well.

    --
    {} ------ When I think of a good sig, I'll put it here
  20. iPhone and "txt" messages by macklin01 · · Score: 1

    I can't stress enough how much it drives me up the wall to get text messages on my Android phone from iPhones. Far too often, they show as "multimedia" messages requiring a data connection just to download 5-7 words of text.

    Or when an iPhone user sends a txt message to several people, and each "reply to all" response appears as a separate, disjoint SMS thread without the full conversation or context.

    --
    OpenSource.MathCancer.org: open source comp bio
    1. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by BitZtream · · Score: 0

      That doesn't happen on iPhones, perhaps its your end thats the problem.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    2. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by theurge14 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like it might be a problem on your phone. I haven't seen this problem at all on iPhones.

    3. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by wbr1 · · Score: 1

      When I receive an overlength sms on my android from an iphone the split message comes in reverse order. Not so for android to android. This is highly annoying.

      --
      Silence is a state of mime.
    4. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

      The problem is that only iPhones know how to handle it. My wife can't view group messages sent from iphones because she doesn't have data on her phone.

    5. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by macklin01 · · Score: 1

      BitZtream (692029) wrote: That doesn't happen on iPhones, perhaps its your end thats the problem.

      theurge14 (820596) wrote: Sounds like it might be a problem on your phone. I haven't seen this problem at all on iPhones.

      [snark]Of course the standards-breaking message sender renders its standards-breaking messages correctly.[/snark]

      More seriously, we have:

      • iPhone -> iPhone : no problem
      • non-iPhone -> iPhone : no problem
      • non-iPhone -> Android : no problem
      • iPhone -> Android : textual messages appearing like multimedia attachments

      This suggests that iPhone is using iChat or similar to "txt" with other phones and encoding outgoing info in some sort of multimedia or attachment tags within the SMS format.

      --
      OpenSource.MathCancer.org: open source comp bio
    6. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by mcmonkey · · Score: 1

      Yes, and people are telling you, the problem may be on your end.

      I have an android phone; my wife has an iphone. I get iphone -> android text message without issue. They show up like message from any other phone.

      This suggests the issue is either with your particular phone or the particular phone sending you messages, but not a general issue with iphone or android.

    7. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by macklin01 · · Score: 1

      Good point. Since I've seen this issue sporadically with multiple iPhones sending messages to Android, I had figured it was more on the iPhone end with a standards-breaking or standards-bending SMS behavior.

      --
      OpenSource.MathCancer.org: open source comp bio
    8. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by macklin01 · · Score: 1

      this and this are pretty similar. I see this most frequently in multi-person text messages from iPhone, and indeed, in the default txt message client, these often appear as attachments / multimedia instead of text.

      --
      OpenSource.MathCancer.org: open source comp bio
    9. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      You sound like an IE5 user responding to the complaints of those who use standards-compliant browsers.

      "Page looks fine to me, maybe you should just use IE!"

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    10. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by chromas · · Score: 1

      The carriers I've used (Sprint and T-Mobile) charge for MMS the same as SMS. They use the data channel, of course, but they're not count as data. In fact, people even used to forward chain MMSes (jokes, pictures—I think I even saw goatse once) before data service started getting popular.

    11. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by mjwx · · Score: 1

      The carriers I've used (Sprint and T-Mobile) charge for MMS the same as SMS. They use the data channel, of course, but they're not count as data. In fact, people even used to forward chain MMSes (jokes, pictures—I think I even saw goatse once) before data service started getting popular.

      In Australia all the carriers have different charges for SMS and MMS, MMS is usually double the price.

      But in Oz, sender pays so people with Iphones end up paying for SMS's sent as MMS's so it doesn't bother me. When Android sends pictures like smilies and the like, the conversion is done client-side and the message is actually just text.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    12. Re:iPhone and "txt" messages by Galilee · · Score: 1

      There is an option on the iPhone for "Group Messages". The default behavior is for group messages to be sent as MMS. If the iPhone user disables group messages, messages sent to groups of people will be sent as SMS instead of MMS.

      This is incredibly annoying for me because many of my friends and family have iPhones and I can't get MMS. If someone sends a message only to me, I will get a SMS. But my phone silently drops MMS, so I never see the messages sent to groups.

  21. Re:So he's not entirely well informed on this topi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blackberry? I think I remember them. Somehow managed to turn a leading position in business mobile comms into the position of once-great also-ran, and consigned themselves to the dustbin of history.

  22. Re:Usenet's death report has been greatly exaggera by mfarah · · Score: 1

    I know well enough what Usenet is. Hell, I AM the moderator in chile.grupos.anuncios (a local equivalent to news.announce.newgroups).

    But to say Usenet is *far* from its glory days is a terrible understatement. Usenet is, for its glory days purposes, pretty much dead. Not many servers remain, not many users remain, entire hierarchies are dead. BESIDES some specific still-running newsgroups, not much activity remains.

    Those isolated pockets of still healthy Usenet traffic are now no different than just any other web forum.

    Usenet WAS the go-to place for online discussion. As much as it pains me, that ceased to be the case.

    --
    "Trust me - I know what I'm doing."
    - Sledge Hammer
  23. from a collective to for profit individuals by xrmb · · Score: 1

    seems we went from working together to make life better for everyone to individuals with great ideas to patent them, or handed them out free and turn them in a for pay model later... its sad

    1. Re:from a collective to for profit individuals by foobsr · · Score: 1
      --
      TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
  24. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

    i currently use imo i don't particularly care for it but it seems to be the best free chat app for android that i have tried the rest seemed to be a constant stream of crap or facebook only. I really wish pidgin would release a android app.

    --
    ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
  25. Re:Usenet's death report has been greatly exaggera by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2, Informative

    There are plenty of free newsgroup servers. Google is your friend! ... or at least their search engine is anyway ;-)

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  26. Google Voice rocks for this by Turmoyl · · Score: 1

    I've been using Google Voice for texting and call forwarding for several months now, and it is flawless except for not yet working with email-to-SMS (which has only caused a problem twice so far, with a workaround available in both instances).

    The associated Android app works nicely, making this a no-brainer for me. It's also wonderful to be able to type a text on a full-sized keyboard while using the Google Voice site.

  27. XMPP? by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No?

    1. Re:XMPP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No?

      Shut up, NERRRRRRRRRRRD! That's not marketable to venture capitalists! It's not CamelCased! You can't even pronounce it! And... oh my GOD. Is that protocol seriously more than SIX MONTHS OLD? Time to replace it with something new, GRANDPA!!! GRANDPA NERD. NERD. You're a huge nerd. Please give me venture capital money for my social network now kthx.

    2. Re:XMPP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up. Good grief. Simple solution is XMPP and quit angsting about Trillian and Pidgin and balkinazation and whatnot. Google Talk and Facebook are two big services that use it. I run my own XMPP server in the clouds and it works just fine for me. If I wanted to talk to someone on AIM or whatever I can even get my XMPP server to connect to AIM for me (transports) so I don't have to worry about it. There's multi-user chat that works just fine with XMPP too.

      This is such of a non-problem.

      CAPTCHA: enabler

    3. Re:XMPP? by ttucker · · Score: 1

      No?

      Shut up, NERRRRRRRRRRRD! That's not marketable to venture capitalists! It's not CamelCased! You can't even pronounce it! And... oh my GOD. Is that protocol seriously more than SIX MONTHS OLD? Time to replace it with something new, GRANDPA!!! GRANDPA NERD. NERD. You're a huge nerd. Please give me venture capital money for my social network now kthx.

      Then again those behind the times old nerds over at Google seem to be having a pretty good time with XMPP and Google Talk...

  28. Skype? by technomom · · Score: 1, Informative

    A whole article on this topic without mentioning maybe one of the more historically successful attempts at pulling together voice, chat, offline chat/mail - Skype?

    I know it's not perfect but it is definitely the only messenging service that my family all work with - grandma/grandpa from their ancient Dell computers included.

    1. Re:Skype? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Skype is really bad, you're welcome.

  29. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by localman57 · · Score: 2

    Yes, but Chat apps are priced closer to the way that the water coming out of your garden hose is. As opposed to SMS, which is priced like bottled water.

    ACs posting Pedantic flaws in my metaphore in 3...2...1...

  30. Network effect by axlash · · Score: 1

    What a chat app needs to do is to build up a network effect - get enough people using it such that a typical person who *doesn't* use it realises that a significant percentage of people he knows *are* using the app. Once that happens, he has a strong incentive to use the app, especially if it doesn't require him buying a new phone. But the other limiting factor to the adoption of chat apps over SMS is that not all phones are internet enabled.

    --
    Deal with reality - the world as it is - rather than ideality - the world as you would like it to be.
  31. It's not suitable for most by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not suitable for most, because If you are not always connected someone can steal your nick and what you know someone is chatting too friendly things with someone else.

    1. Re:It's not suitable for most by bn-7bc · · Score: 0

      Depends on what network you are on, Freenode has nickserv so you can register your nick, ok the account expires after n days (iirc 90) without a login, but then again if that is an issue for you, you are not really active on that network are you

    2. Re:It's not suitable for most by ttucker · · Score: 1

      Depends on what network you are on, Freenode has nickserv so you can register your nick, ok the account expires after n days (iirc 90) without a login, but then again if that is an issue for you, you are not really active on that network are you

      NickServ does not preclude anyone from using your nickname, at least for a short period of time. Maybe it will kill you in 60 seconds, of eventually change your nickname, but there is still that little period of time.

  32. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by wagnerrp · · Score: 4, Informative

    Infinite bucks per GB? SMS messages don't use bandwidth or data. They get carried in what is otherwise wasted padding in heartbeat packets. That's why they have a limited character length.

  33. Re:So he's not entirely well informed on this topi by localman57 · · Score: 1

    To be fair, there's not a lot of shame in that. Look at most market leading companies over the last 50 years. Many innovative companies fit that description. Kodak? Sony? Maybe Apple in 5 years... It doesn't mean they're bad, it just means its hard to be #1 forever. We can learn a lot from that.

    Oh, and also really it's best if you have just one person run a company. Learn that too. :-)

  34. BlackBerry Hub... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Apparently RIM caught on to this idea well before Taco since they've already built and added the feature that he's begging for as an integral component of the BlackBerry 10 Operating System (and it works VERY well!!) -> BlackBerry Hub API.

    -AC

  35. this is the last reason I still have an iphone. by nblender · · Score: 1

    Most of my friends have iphones and have icloud or imessage or iwhatever its icalled ... I can send free texts to them and it doesn't cost me to get texts from them... I borrowed a Nexus4 from a friend for a few weeks and I much prefer it except for the $0.20/text message I have to pay my provider or pay them an extra $7.00/month for "unlimited text messaging"....

    There's no way I will convince them to all install gropeme or some equivalent free texting app.. It just isn't going to happen.

    1. Re:this is the last reason I still have an iphone. by Shikaku · · Score: 1

      Just use Google Voice, it's free.

    2. Re:this is the last reason I still have an iphone. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Most of my friends have iphones and have icloud or imessage or iwhatever its icalled ... I can send free texts to them and it doesn't cost me to get texts from them... I borrowed a Nexus4 from a friend for a few weeks and I much prefer it except for the $0.20/text message I have to pay my provider or pay them an extra $7.00/month for "unlimited text messaging"....

      There's no way I will convince them to all install gropeme or some equivalent free texting app.. It just isn't going to happen.

      This seems to be a US centric issue.

      Almost everyone I know who has an Android or Iphone has WhatsApp or Viber installed, I use it for international texting (a fraction of a cent for data vs A$0.50 for an international text, you decide) to message people I know in Thailand, UK Canada, et al.

      I dont keep these apps running all the time because they are battery hogs.

      What will eventually happen is that people will combine all these different protocols into one application.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  36. Re:Not just chatting. Forum discussions suffer, to by dj245 · · Score: 1

    True, and Usenet could be handy. But basically it became a spam forest, and you'd have to wade thru 200 spam emails for one on the topic. Maybe if they would have developed filters for it, it could have gone on further.

    Spam filters for Usenet seems like a much more difficult problem to me than spam filters for Email. This is a medium with no functional delete function network-wide. If your message makes it in, it is basically there and not going anywhere. The only way is for each server to filter the incoming data, in real time (or close to it) and decide what is Spam and what is not. If a message is rejected, the spammer can easilly know about it, because they can easilly check the group and see that their message isn't there! Then they can modify the Spam and keep retrying until it makes it past the filters.

    Compare this to email, where we have all sorts of various tricks to trap the email after it is flagged as Spam. It can be quarrantined, dropped silently, etc. The Spammer (should) not know if they beat the filter or not, since there is no confirmation and no way for them to see mailbox contents to confirm that the message is there. Filters remain effective a lot longer, so filtering is useful.

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
  37. Re:So he's not entirely well informed on this topi by amiga3D · · Score: 1

    They aren't quite dead yet but their pulse is getting pretty weak.

  38. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by gauauu · · Score: 1

    Infinite bucks per GB? SMS messages don't use bandwidth or data. They get carried in what is otherwise wasted padding in heartbeat packets. That's why they have a limited character length.

    Yes, but that doesn't stop AT&T from charging me 20 cents per message. Considering each message only has 120 characters, it would cost me ridiculous amounts of money to send a GB-worth of data via SMS.

  39. I'm not sure what the problem is by berj · · Score: 1

    Personally I do all my chatting on my phone or tablet.

    I have one app (beejive, in this case) which handles basically everything. yahoo, msn (dunno if that's relevant after the skype buyout.. I don't use it any more), gtalk, aim, facebook, etc.

    The only other thing is iMessage.. which, frankly, is where I do the majority of my talking.

    On my desktop I used to use Adium which, similar to beejive, handled everything I needed. Haven't used that in years though.

  40. It's the email clients, stupid by joh · · Score: 1

    Email today is totally fine for texting. The problem is not the protocol, the problem are the clients that still fully stick to an emulation of writing something like a letter. Better email clients that support some ways of quickly composing and reading short blurbs of text could solve this easily.

    (Of course this doesn't change the fact that many people want to have things like chatting or texting and email nicely separated.)

    1. Re:It's the email clients, stupid by TuringTest · · Score: 1

      It's the application, stupid

      And there you've found the reason why chat apps are popular. The protocol doesn't matter at all, what counts is that they're dead simple to install and use for the intended purpose - chatting.

      That whole package is something that email clients, Jabber and SMS don't have (SMS is the closest one, but it's too expensive, the basic version doesn't do multimedia and it doesn't keep track of the conversation).

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
    2. Re:It's the email clients, stupid by hey · · Score: 1

      Might be interesting if somebody came up with an email client that used mail protocols but was more like a chat client.
      So if somebody else has that prog it works like chat but for email only users it still gets thru.

    3. Re:It's the email clients, stupid by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      The default mesaging app on my cheap at&t fusion does do conversation threading

  41. APRS by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

    It keeps the riff-raff away.

    --
    the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
  42. Why I use SMS by houghi · · Score: 3, Informative

    The reason I use SMS and hope to use for a LONG time are the following:
    1) No data plan needed. This means I am not tempted to go online all the time. So I just used a pre-payed card. Last top-up was 28/02 for 25 EUR. Still 15 EUR available
    2) I can use it with the many people who do not have a smart phone. It just works.
    3) Smart messaging. This means if I want to chit-chat, I SMS them where we can meet, we meet, have a few drinks and have an actual personal relationship.
    4) Because it costs the other person to send something back, they don't send useless messages and most of the time just a message where we can meet.

    And if smsing is not an option, you could, you know, use the device to, well telephone the other person and speak to them.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:Why I use SMS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats nice if you do not pay for SMS. I do at 40 cents per message. I buy 0 plan for SMS as everyone I know uses other text techs. I get *maybe* 2-3 SMS messages per year. I could get a different plan if I do not mind spending 20 bucks more per month (I am already at 120+ per month). It would also mean giving up my unlimited data.

    2. Re:Why I use SMS by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      That's nice. Your situation isn't really generally applicable. For example, I'm currently travelling out of the country. I'm not that far away though - text messages only cost $0.70, both to send and receive. Let's not talk about how much it costs to actually call someone.

    3. Re:Why I use SMS by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I use email. Works fine. No charges for SMS messages, no chat apps, no message length limits, etc.

    4. Re:Why I use SMS by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      4) Because it costs the other person to send something back, they don't send useless messages and most of the time just a message where we can meet.

      Basically he's saying that if you want to talk to someone, actually talk to them.

    5. Re:Why I use SMS by houghi · · Score: 1

      I do pay for SMS messages. International messages have been restricted by law. http://www.simyo.be/en/information/rates and for international rates http://www.simyo.be/en/information/rates?oper=buitenland

      But then this has been regulated by Europe, not by the 'free market'.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    6. Re:Why I use SMS by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      That's great for you. Personally, it seems rather silly to have legal regulation for how much you can charge for specific forms of data called "SMS" and "Voice," and to have those restrictions vary depending on where you are, where your provider is, and where the person on the other end of the connection is. It's even sillier when, moving forward, cell networks will be set up so that all traffic, voice, data, whatever, all travel the same way.

      SMS was always a hack. It's going to be a relief to move on to something more sane.

  43. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by hankwang · · Score: 1

    thousands of bucks per GB cost of an SMS

    I see the upside of SMS'es costing the sender money: it throttles the rate of incoming messages. I fear the day that the spammers figure out how to use Whatsapp for massive spam runs.

    Too bad that here in Netherlands the telcos are moving to unlimited-SMS plans due to competition with Whatsapp...

  44. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

    Infinite bucks per GB? SMS messages don't use bandwidth or data. They get carried in what is otherwise wasted padding in heartbeat packets. That's why they have a limited character length.

    Yes, but that doesn't stop AT&T from charging me 20 cents per message. Considering each message only has 120 characters, it would cost me ridiculous amounts of money to send a GB-worth of data via SMS.

    A couple years ago I saw an amusing and pretty simple analysis showing that the end user bandwidth costs in terms of $/MB are far, far higher for SMS than for the Voyager space probes, including the cost of development and launch of said probes.

    --
    "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
  45. Why do you have so many chat apps? by BitZtream · · Score: 1

    Seriously? Why do you have 3 on your phone? I'm betting you spend more time screwing with apps than your time is worth if you just paid for SMS.

    I have ONE chat app on my PC, none on my phone, yet everyone seems to 'chat' just fine, if you think phones are meant for 'chatting'. A Jabber client is all you need, if you want to talk to someone who doesn't use a proper XMPP system, make them get on Google talk.

    The problem is that you're trying too hard to talk to people that don't seem to be willing to do the same.

    Don't 'chat' with people who don't use a proper 'chat' system. Sorry if that cuts out Facebook, but not playing Facebook's game is the only way you end their bullying chat on our system only bullshit. Meet the new boss, same as the old.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    1. Re:Why do you have so many chat apps? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      make them get on Google talk

      Yeah, see that's the problem there.
      If everyone actually used the same network and if everyone was -willing- to use the same network we wouldn't have any problem. Fortunately the vast, vast majority of my contacts (AIM, MSN, Yahoo, GTalk, even skype using the silly plugin) show up in pidgin, so just one client to talk to everyone.

      Even Google Talk can be pretty annoying. If I send email from my gmail account to someone else's, they get added to my Google Talk contacts. That's fairly intrusive. Most networks require authorization from both parties before a contact list add. I know it goes against Google's whole philosophy, but I don't -want- synchronization of all services.

      This really REALLY frustrating part of me is that many of my friends are starting to only chat on Steam. They might have other chat clients or such but don't always sign on with them, while they're always signed into steam if they're at their computer. Uuuuugggghh, I thought skype was bad with standards. Steam is about as bad as a chat client can get.

  46. umm... Pidgin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    www.pidgin.im handles pretty much every chat protocol that I know of other than Skype (which is just a stand alone app, and not a protocol), actually...(teamspeak/vent) are protocols/apps too, but aren't handled by pidgin, but those are voice mainly... so that is differently...

    But everything from Facebook chat to the new site coming out for http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/ is using XMPP as the basis underlying chat protocol, then adding their own UI ontop of that. Perhaps we should look into better support of basis standards such as XMPP in our services.

    I use IRC Daily still, and it works well for leaving it open in a few select channels where you want possibly constant update on the topics it covers.

  47. Google talk by SoupGuru · · Score: 1

    It works fine for me across devices, stays in sync, gets archived to my gmail, it's xmpp...

    --
    What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
  48. Uh, no. It went the other way. by SCHecklerX · · Score: 1

    Now that Phones are more prevalent, and unlimited txt as well, I haven't used IRC, IM, AIM, Google Talk, Jabber, etc etc etc in several years now. Everything is done via SMS. Maybe it's just who my friends are, mostly outside the tech industry.

  49. if only there was a way by drunkenkatori · · Score: 1

    If only there was a Protocol to Simply Transfer Messages.

  50. Decentralize Chat by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

    From my perspective the biggest problem with chat is the requirement for a chat server. As long as everybody depends on some intermediary that intermediary has incentive to "wall in" users for monetization or just "customer acquisition." There are all kinds of other problems with centralized chat like the ability to keep records of who is talking to who. Even if the content of the messages is encrypted, the flow of messages is not.

    I think there a couple of obscure setups like bitchat and bitmessage that seem to address those issues, but clients are not widely available.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    1. Re:Decentralize Chat by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I think there a couple of obscure setups like bitchat and bitmessage that seem to address those issues, but clients are not widely available.

      You forgot WASTE. I guess there's still some people fiddling with it...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Decentralize Chat by AnyoneEB · · Score: 1

      As much as I like the idea of decentralized protocols, the problem with decentralizing chat is that most of the nodes we are talking about are mobile devices and decentralized protocols tend to require a lot more communication---and therefore battery power---than centralized protocols where you leave the organization to the servers. Any decentralized protocol would probably have to handle that by somehow offloading the extra communication and computation to devices that are currently plugged in.

      There is the additional problem that authenticating users in a decentralized fashion means that the is no equivalent to password recovery, but users might be okay with an account tied to their physical phone.

      --
      Centralization breaks the internet.
  51. More self-important drivel from Taco by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    Navel-gaze much?

    "ooh look at me I'm so dotcom and trendy and chat on the Internet! ooh!"

    Try working.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  52. Most of them are just using jabber by ncttrnl · · Score: 1

    A bunch of the "chat" applications out there now are just jabber. You should be able to use any generic jabber client you want if you know the right settings to login.

  53. Blackberry Messenger... by Bartles · · Score: 1

    ...is the only thing I miss from 2007 era smartphones.

  54. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You still have to pay for data, which is far cheaper than the thousands of bucks per GB cost of an SMS

    I don't pay anything for SMS, all the plans from my Carrier include unlimited SMS. Data, however, is extra if you want it, and is not unlimited use either.
    Three years ago, this wasn't the case, but I'm not aware of any major Carrier who charges for SMS anymore.

  55. Communication fragmentation by nine-times · · Score: 2

    I think this is just one part of a larger problem, which is that our communications are all fragmented.

    Personally, I have 4 different email addresses that I actively use, as well as several that I don't use. I have 4 different IM accounts/protocols that I actively use. I have my cell phone, my work phone, and a Google Voice number, and voicemail for each. I have SMS via Google Voice and my phone directly, and then I also have iMessage on my phone, which arguably counts as a 5th IM account rather than SMS. I have membership and various forums and social networks. Through some of those social networks, I have even more email addresses and IM accounts. There may be even more accounts that I'm not thinking of.

    So beyond the issue of SMS/chat, in that we have all these different incompatible and slightly different communications which don't work well together, and there isn't really a larger scheme to make it all coherent. I think Google may be the only company that's really trying to tackle the issue. They have been relatively successful in incorporating video, audio, and text chat with social networking. All that is tied in with Gmail and Google Voice under the same account, even though they're not really integrated yet. It'd be great if they could open APIs and protocols that allowed full interoperability with other services, e.g. if your friend could have Google+ and you have a Facebook account and a third friend sets up his own server, they can all still talk to each other and post on each others' walls.

    But beyond that, I think we should be asking questions like: what's the difference between a IM message and SMS? Should you IM status be the same as a tweet? Where do you draw the line between a short blog post and a long Facebook status? What's the difference between sending an email and sending a IM to someone who is offline?

    I would not only ask whether we need all these incompatible protocols, but whether we need all these different *kinds* of messages. Let's figure out which ones we really need, and then formulate standard protocols for distributing them.

    1. Re:Communication fragmentation by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Who cares. I have half a dozen e-mail addresses, all of which go to unified mailboxes on my computer and my phone. People ask me what address to use. I don't care. When I used IM it was the same. A unified client, both desktop and phone, that combined everything. GTalk, MSN, Yahoo, whatever. It made no difference. Now with SMS replacements (and SMS itself), everything just goes to my phone. Sure, it's several different apps, but regardless of which one, the notification pops up, I tap on it, and write a reply. It's a non-issue, just like it was ten years ago when Microsoft and Yahoo decided they wanted part of the ICQ pie.

    2. Re:Communication fragmentation by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I have one email that I use. I have 2 IMs but both are for work only and I don't care if I lose them when I eventually leave my job. Zero SMS, zero chat, zero twitter, zero facebook. It's pretty simple. If I have a friend who's a twitter nut she can still email me just the same as the facebook addict. If I fail to get their facebook update or tweet of the hour, I lose absolutely nothing.

    3. Re:Communication fragmentation by nine-times · · Score: 1

      It may be a non-issue in approximately the same way that pretty much everything is a "non-issue". If you happen to be in a circumstance where it doesn't matter, or you're short-sighted enough to ignore the problems that can and will arise, then nothing is a real issue. Unified inboxes that pull from various different accounts are all fine and dandy, but there are various issues related to freedom, security, availability, economic development, etc. that come from having all these different communication systems that are essentially proprietary.

      If that's too big a concept for you, then can I just point out that there are still simple issues such as: I can't (as far as I know) forward my iMessage messages to my gmail account. I can't connect to Skype IM through the IM client of my choice. There is currently no solution for a true "unified inbox" which captures all of my incoming email, SMS, IM, voicemail, responses to my forum posts, Tweets directed at me, etc. My only option is to try to get all of these services to send me emails, which many (though not all) of these services will support, but which results in a hodge-podge of different formats and different methods of reply.

      This could be done better.

    4. Re:Communication fragmentation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see two main issues:

      First, most these new messaging services don't have good cross-platform support. Unless by "cross-platform" you mean they support both iOS and Android.

      Second, a lot of users don't like the "install yet another app" solution and will just refuse to install more than one or two of these apps, resulting in groups of people who can't communicate with each other easily. Also, if the apps are not carefully written, then logging into many uses more battery.

      Personally, I'm quite confused why XMPP has failed to complete dominate this space. I'm a fan of it because it works on every device and handles statuses and multiple logins in a sane way. Pretty much everyone I know uses it because they either use GMail or an Android phone (or both) and it's enabled by default on both. iOS users have to install an app for it, which very few do in my experience. I'm apparently completely out of touch with the demographic for WhatsApp and its ilk.

    5. Re:Communication fragmentation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We already answered that question and established standard protocols for distributing them.

      Phone: SIP, POTS
      Email: IMAP, SMTP
      IM: XMPP

      You should ask yourself why your are still using proprietary alternatives such as iMessage when you can use a standard protocol.

    6. Re:Communication fragmentation by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      "there are various issues related to freedom, security, availability, economic development, etc. that come from having all these different communication systems that are essentially proprietary."

      I don't know what kind of e-mail you're using, but mine is pretty much the opposite of proprietary. All of your other objections seem to boil down to "but everyone won't use my preferred system, so we need to force them to!" There are standards for all of the things you've mentioned. Except for e-mail, the standards are unpopular. I'm not going to support you in forcing everyone use whatever you think is open enough. If you think it's that big a problem then write a killer SMS/twitter/forum/facebook/IM/kitchen sink app using open standards for everything and see if you can convince anyone to use it.

      I think it's a nonissue because, with the possible exception of e-mail, which is already standardized, nobody is really bound to any particular system. ICQ was abandoned when MSN and Yahoo came around with something better. MySpace got the boot when Facebook offered something better. Twitter might fall to something new. SMS is facing death at the hands of reasonably priced alternatives. There's no significant lockin because the vast majority of people don't really care about things like their SMS message archive.

    7. Re:Communication fragmentation by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I don't know what kind of e-mail you're using, but mine is pretty much the opposite of proprietary.

      Right, but that's just email. Email is just about the only thing named that operates the way I would advocate.

      All of your other objections seem to boil down to "but everyone won't use my preferred system, so we need to force them to!"

      Nope. It would be closer to interpret me to saying, "but everyone is choosing to use their own preferred system, they all prefer different systems, and those systems are incompatible with each other, so they're forcing me to sign up for 50 different systems if I want to be able to talk to everyone!"

      ...nobody is really bound to any particular system.

      Except that we're all stuck using them until they become unpopular, and then they're replaced with the new different proprietary solutions.

    8. Re:Communication fragmentation by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Okay, so you don't like having lots of apps to use lots of networks but you don't want to force everyone to use the same system and you object to aggregator apps for some reason you haven't really specified, despite some fuzzy references to "freedom, security, availability, economic development, etc." So... you're just complaining the world isn't quite as convenient as you'd like it to be? Not that there's anything wrong with that, this is Slashdot after all.

    9. Re:Communication fragmentation by nine-times · · Score: 1

      you object to aggregator apps for some reason you haven't really specified

      They're an ok stopgap solution that isn't necessarily a real solution. To be more specific, if you have a bunch of email accounts being aggregated into one virtual inbox and you like doing that, cool. It's your option to have multiple accounts and to aggregate them however you like. What I'm saying is that the ability to access your AIM and Jabber and Yahoo chat accounts through pidgin doesn't fundamentally solve the problem of having multiple incompatible protocols that do effectively the same thing. Because (a) it's still a hack that add complexity for no good reason; and (b) it still doesn't really add interoperability. The fact that I'm using Pidgin doesn't mean that I don't have to sign up for and sign into all these different accounts. All it does is make it slightly more convenient to access your myriad of incompatible proprietary accounts.

      It also doesn't address the other issue I was pointing out: that I can't necessarily have all my different *kinds* of communications (e.g SMS, voicemail, twitter, chat) going into one inbox. You can largely accomplish it by having everything send you email notifications, but again, you're not really solving the issue. You're painting over the cracks instead of addressing the issue.

    10. Re:Communication fragmentation by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      If you think having your e-mail, SMS, voicemail, twitter, etc. in the same inbox is something people want, write the program. If you're right, you'll be rich! I won't be using it. I don't want it. I like having those things separate.

      Multiple incompatible protocols might offend your sense of elegance, but that's the way it is. I don't see it as an issue. There are apps to hide the ugliness, and they do a good job. You've already said you don't want to force everyone to use the same protocol, and there are already standard protocols available, so what do you suggest doing about it?

      You don't "solve" issues created by freedom of choice. You deal with them.

    11. Re:Communication fragmentation by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Multiple incompatible protocols might offend your sense of elegance, but that's the way it is. I don't see it as an issue.

      Well you're bragging about being stubborn and blind. Congratulations. Your mother must be so proud.

  56. Re:Not just chatting. Forum discussions suffer, to by Paradoks · · Score: 1

    Back in the day, there was *one* discussion forum: Usenet.

    Ah, yes, I remember those days.

    I was posting on multiple BBSes and occasionally using FIDOnet.

  57. Re:Not just chatting. Forum discussions suffer, to by erice · · Score: 1

    True, and Usenet could be handy. But basically it became a spam forest, and you'd have to wade thru 200 spam emails for one on the topic. Maybe if they would have developed filters for it, it could have gone on further.

    No, it didn't. Spam was a big issue for a while but server side spam filters like cleanfeed and distributed systems like nocem became very sophisticated and effective. Unlike email filters, Usenet filters have the advantage in being able to see *all* the destinations. If an article that appeared in more than a handful of groups was quickly squashed. Spam never entirely went away but it well under control long before the decline of Usenet.

    There were also efforts like Usenet2 that created a network of trusted servers who would keep spam out. It worked fairly well but interest waned initially because the spam problem was effectively controlled in regular Usenet but even more so as total volume declined and the Usenet2 corner became too thinly populated to be of much use.

    Now there is still the problem of idiots posting things in inappropriate places but that's a problem of moderation, something Usenet never did well. (Usenet *did* have moderated groups but it drastically slowed conversation and did not scale well)

    I still run a small news server. Spam is only a "problem" is groups where the posting volume has dropped near zero and spam is all that is left. A bigger problem is that I keep losing peers as people give up and shutdown thier servers.

  58. Re:Not just chatting. Forum discussions suffer, to by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    Could have had our cake and eaten it too if Wave had taken off. This is what it was REALLY for, but noone seemed to get it and Google sucks at PR.

    Imagine visiting your wave inbox, which is connected to the forum waves that you subscribed to, and seeing the wave chats you were participating in on facebook.

    Alas, "easy" often triumphs over "best".

  59. Balkanization by lahvak · · Score: 1

    I hoped for a moment that chat applications are finally getting Romany localization.

    Anyway, that's similar to what happened to usenet.

    --
    AccountKiller
  60. Facebook. by nebular · · Score: 1

    Much like MSN messenger did to AIM and ICQ, the default seems to be going to Facebook messenger. Simple and ubiquitous and usually covers all your friends as they usually have facebook too.

    Through mobile they're trying to take the voice/video from skype and might pull it off.

    Just through sheer numbers facebook will own the chat world just like msn did

  61. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by john83 · · Score: 1
    --
    Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
  62. Kill Facebook by spectrokid · · Score: 1

    Google talk is the perfect example of how the beancounters will stick to certain principles even if they are shooting themselves in the foot twice a day. Lock all your users in! People who want to talk to them will also have to get a Google account! The basics of chatting was done in the late cretacious. The ONLY way any chat service can beat the competition is by opening up to other servers. If google, skype and whatsapp users could chat with each other, they would kick Facebook in the nuts, HARD. Even just opening up to corporate Sharepoint servers would give serious extra traffic, with all the American CIOs who shit their pants at the idea of corporate data not residing on their own servers.

    --

    10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then

  63. Re:So he's not entirely well informed on this topi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    their pulse is getting pretty weak

    Really? -- they have BILLIONS of dollars in the bank, over 80 million CURRENT users, and they are GROWING.

    In fact, the only measure by which they might appear to be "getting ... weak" is by overall percentage of the market, solely because they're not growing as fast as the market, at the present time.

    Given that they basically had to take a 2-year hiatus to overcome the missteps of prior management, this state of affairs isn't surprising. Nevertheless, despite it being an unpopular truth, BlackBerry (nee RIM) is once again a GROWING organization. At present, the biggest hurdles they face are:
    1: overcoming a market perception that is based solely on fanboism and "truthiness" and the desire to write incendiary articles that will generate page-views
    and 2: Market forces that seek to generate profit from their misfortune/demise (i.e. short-sellers, and competitors with eyes on both their IP and their other still-valuable infrastructure technologies).

    -AC

  64. KLML not a newsgroup by Chirs · · Score: 1

    technically, LKML is a mailing list that happens to be mirrored to one or more newsgroups

    1. Re:KLML not a newsgroup by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      You can post and receive via NNTP to LKML, ergo it is a distinction without a difference.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  65. Whoa, hold on a second... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Placing negative connotations on slavic/balkan cultures (e.g. 'slovenly' and 'balkanization') is a form of *discrimination*. Disgusting practice and it really ticks me off.

    1. Re:Whoa, hold on a second... by neminem · · Score: 1

      slovenly (adj.)
              1510s, "low, base, lewd," later "untidy, dirty" (1560s), from sloven + -ly (1).
      sloven (n.)
              mid-15c., "immoral woman," later also "rascal, knave" (regardless of gender); probably from Middle Flemish sloovin "a scold," related to sloef "untidy, shabby," from Proto-Germanic *slup- (cf. Dutch slof "careless, negligent") + Old French suffix -ain, from Latin -anus.

      Doesn't look like it has absolutely anything to do with the Slavs.

      Balkanization obviously does have to do with the Balkans, but it's not really so much culture, as current politics: you can't really argue that balkanization is a thing that has happened and is happening in the Balkans, can you? At least, not without being wrong?

  66. numerous free options by Chirs · · Score: 1

    textplus and textme are both free, both use your data plan, and both give you a separate real phone number so that your friends just see regular SMS messages--though coming from a different number than your "real" number.

  67. Re:Usenet's death report has been greatly exaggera by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    Yes, parts of it are around. The parts I stuck with even into this millenia have devolved too much. One actual post per month, with 10 spam messages a day.

    But the GP was right, it was one place to go for all forums. You didn't have a separate location and method for each topic, you didn't have multiple competing forums types for one topic, etc. You were never required to register for it and sign in first. Pick your own interface not that chosen for you by the web site administrator. There's been no suitable replacement for it.

  68. Oblig XKCD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  69. Re:Usenet's death report has been greatly exaggera by Rakarra · · Score: 1

    Usenet's death is not greatly exaggerated. Just because a few people still use it doesn't mean it has much relevancy in the modern Internet. Outside of your one kernel mail list example (a mailing list is not a usenet newsgroup.. do they use a news-to-mail gateway?) I haven't heard anyone mention Usenet's use outside of piracy, that is, as a dumping ground for binaries that is off media lawyers' radar since they're focused on web sites and bittorrent. I used to use it all the time -- it was email and newsgroups (archie was pretty useless by the time I started using the 'net, and the web hadn't really been developed yet). But long gone are the days when a majority of Internet users used it, long gone are the days when your ISP would provide an NNTP server for you to use.

    Most people use website-specific forums now which SUCK compared to what you had on Usenet 20 years ago. Instead of rec.sports.*, most people comment on espn.com or some other sports-related web portal.

    Hell, Slashdot is a replacement for Usenet. At least its discussion tools are better than most.

  70. There is a simple solution to this problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It was invented in the 1800's. It's called a phone.

  71. Facebook by vga_init · · Score: 1

    As much as I hate to say this, Facebook is really the only service that offers "everything." First of all, you can message anyone on Facebook by their name, so now you've eliminated the need for addresses/screen names. Facebook messages can be long like e-mails, and conversations can span weeks or days, or they can be short like instant messages and carry on in real time. Facebook messages can include multiple recipients like e-mail conversation, or in the same way it can be like a chat room. You can access it through the web, mobile apps with push notification, or desktop software. It automatically syncs the inbox/history across all platforms; you basically never miss a message. You can attach files, embed photos, and so on. The only thing that e-mail does better is lets you have multiple conversations going on simultaneously with the same person, categorized by subject (they could probably implement this with some sort of conversation forking option).

    Various services offer all these things in slightly different ways, but never wit the same level of accessibility and unification. Google tried to step into Facebook's territory and ended up with 3 distinct messaging services: Gmail, Talk, and G+ Messenger (mobile). On top of that you can "inbox" people on G+ by sharing posts with notifications. The integration between Gmail, Talk, and Android can give you a sort of omni-chat experience, but it simply lacks the cohesion and ease of Facebook.

    As for Skype, it is coming close to offering what Facebook offers in terms of chat features, but a) their mobile app needs to be more "mobile", and b) they need a good web interface.

    1. Re:Facebook by countach · · Score: 1

      Good observation. I prefer Skype because its range of emoticons is better, and it works well while moving between devices. But you're right, Facebook is damned good, and has the web interface. Viber and WhatsApp drive me crazy because you MUST use them on your mobile, and can't just swap to your computer.

  72. Re:Not just chatting. Forum discussions suffer, to by chromas · · Score: 1

    They'll keep trying, either way.

  73. How does it differ from Swiss or Greek chat? by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

    Is it made with whole milk? What's the fat content?

    --
    Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
  74. You mention a name by iggymanz · · Score: 1

    but he is dead to us.

    the editing of this site went to hell long before he left, too.

  75. F*CK SMS!!! by greggman · · Score: 1

    Japan dumped SMS long ago and went straight to email. I have no love for SMS and 140 character limits

    On top of that I like the features of some of the chat clients. I like "Line" for instance which is so popular in Japan that you basically can't connect to friends without it. Like it's "stickers". They let me express things that aren't expressed as well through text or text figures.

    Thinking that we should all stick to SMS seems akin to be like saying we should have all stuck to FAX or said with horses and buggies instead of cars. I'm happy to use the stuff. I'm not going to be suck with your SMS 140 chars or you IRC text only 1970s tech thank you.

  76. N900 did it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have owned a N900 for many a year and it integrates all chat, sms, video etc with each other. If someone calls me whether via google voice, skype or via phone it is exactly the same. All messages coming from google chat, sms etc are unified into a single "conversation".

    It continues to amaze me that what to me is "standard functionality" seems to be lacking on all other phones. I hope my N900 never dies.

  77. Re:Usenet's death report has been greatly exaggera by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    The first one I checked is still active. I'm not about to waste my time doing an exhaustive search. The fact that you use sports as an example tells me you aren't actually concerned with using newsgroups for anything important. It may well be true that the useless newsgroups have gone out of style. The ones that matter seem to still be around. As far as LKML being a mailing list I agree that it is in the name (ML) but it is also a newsgroup. If it can be accessed via NNTP it qualifies as a newsgroup, just as a website that can also be accessed via ftp is also an ftp site.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  78. Freenode by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Almost all of the dev channels are pretty good for intelligent discussion, although you'll also see a lot of personal discussion going on in them since it's also mostly the same people day in and day out.

  79. "Balkanization"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uhh... as someone from the Balkans, I find this mildly offensive. But whatever.

    I stopped using MSN/AIM/ICQ ages ago. Now it's FB chat (most of my friends), whatsapp (friends with android) and bbm (friends with blackberries). I use all three from the same device and it doesn't bother me.

  80. Not too bright. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SMS isn't going away any time soon. Some of the stuff rob malda says really blows my mind. He's such an idiot.

  81. Re:"Cheap?" Who's still paying for chat apps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tap water is not safe for human consumption without filtering/boiling in many parts of the world. Are you implying than SMS is somehow safer and won't give you Montezuma's Revenge?