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Microsoft Prepares Rethink On Windows 8
jones_supa writes "Microsoft has confirmed to be preparing to reverse course over elements of Windows 8. 'Key aspects' of how the software is used will be changed when Microsoft releases an updated version of the operating system this year, Tami Reller, head of marketing and finance for the Windows business, said in an interview with the Financial Times. Referring to difficulties many users have had with mastering the software, she added: 'The learning curve is definitely real.'"
While this decision is generally being framed as a frantic backtrack for Microsoft, it comes as the company has recently passed 100 million Windows 8 licenses sold. Clearly they see this as more of a course adjustment than bailing water from a sinking ship. Microsoft also plans to preview the update called 'Windows Blue' in June.
...prediction: They'll lash in a start button but still try and force the user to go through Metro first.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Personally, I went back to Windows 7 because I didn't like the constant switching / start screen. I shouldn't have to install a separate app to get the start button back. Give us an option for tablet or desktop mode.
I am no Microsoft fan however I am glad to see them responding to customer feedback on their product. IT is good to see large companies shape products based on customer response - particularly when they command a very large share of a market.
KK4SFV
Microsoft is misspelling things again.
It's spelled "Windows Blue", but pronounced "Windows Blew".
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Today I took delivery of my new work PC. When I ordered it I asked for Windows 8... One has to keep up with these things, right? Bloody hell...
Seriously, when one has to Google on another computer for instructions on how to bring up the damn (well hidden) address bar in the browser, you know your "intuitive" design is bad, bad, bad. Luckily I already knew about the (equally well hidden) active corners of the screen to bring up the Start screen, Desktop and Charm bar,so I did manage to get around, sort of. Trying to find some essential system settings proved impossible until I ended up installing StartIsBack, which gives me the start menu and old desktop upon boot; after that I could access the old style control panel. Windows 8 is just fine and dandy... Now that I have it working just like Windows 7. Honestly, the Metro interface is not that bad on a mobile device with a touch screen, but it has no place on a desktop PC.
Sure, all new UIs will require some learning. But never, not since Windows 3.11, have I had such a hostile experience from a new OS.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Windows 8: We Blue it...
01:36AM up 426 days, 2:46, 1 user, load average: 0.14, 0.11, 0.05
This just further demonstrates that Microsoft doesn't get it. They seem to think that it's because it's all "different" and there is a "learning curve" which is why people don't like it.
The real reasons:
1) Metro apps default to one app on the screen, and break any sophisticated workflow which requires multiple widows. This is removed functionality, not just an interface change.
2) The UI requires more wrist movement or "gorilla arms", which forces people to do more physical work which adds up for things like muscle strain.
3) They try to force the same interface on two different kinds of setups - small touchscreen tablets/hybrids, and desktop setups with potentially multiple large monitors. There is no way to have a nice uniform interface for both kinds of setups.
There are certainly many more, but those are the worse that I can think of. It's not about learning a different interface - it's that there are genuine drawbacks and genuine functionality removed that needs to be given back.
100 million Windows 8 licenses sold.
I just bought a notebook for my mother's birthday.
Since she is used to Ubuntu on the desktop computer, is was the natural OS of choice.
Windows 8 never saw the light of the day... yet since it came preloaded, it still counts as a sale for Microsoft.
If I clone myself, can I call it a thread?
If a girl winks to us, can I call it a race condition?
They may have sold 100M licenses to manufacturers, but adoption is still under 4%: http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0
It will boot up into the Blue screen of death?
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Microsoft has a habit of padding their sales results. How many of those 100 million licenses are currently in use? Does it include bulk purchases by OEMs? Does a Windows 8 license get subtracted when a user upgrades to Windows 7 or Linux?
How many stayed with 8 after buying the computer or laptop, I know I have switched at least 30 to Windows 7 from 8. Windows 8 has also caused at least 5 friends to switch to Mac. Hopefully blue is a good fix/revision!!!
Only thing I know that is a "one size fits all", is a straight-jacket.
Also, the 100 million sold are actually force-bundled with new computers. Wonder how many uninstalled it and got Linux on there or bought Win7 with/after it?
Or they don't buy computers, if the computer comes with Windows 8 . . . which is what the PC manufacturers have been complaining about.
Or they buy tablets.
On that "hairyfeet" had an interesting theory (in another thread) that is worth repeating:
Microsoft is rich enough to survive another Vista or two, but many PC manufacturers are not. If Microsoft does nothing to make them happy again, they may get desperate and push Linux in earnest.
So there is some risk for Microsoft of losing dominance in their main market if they overdo it with pushing the UI formerly called Metro ;-)
C - the footgun of programming languages
Honestly, Windows 8 is pretty snazzy once you put a start menu on there like Start8 or something. I personally don't like the Classic Shell free ones, but for $5 Start8 is pretty awesome. Regardless, I'm certain they will be bringing it back. Having a hybrid environment of both the Start Screen and Desktop mode is actually quite nice. It's like I'm working in desktop mode 9am-5pm and they I open up the Start Screen mode for watching my movies, reading news, social networking, etc. It's not for everybody and has a ways to go, but the concept of a hybrid interface is something I think we'll start seeing more of in the future.
*plays the Apogee theme song music*
The 100 million number is very misleading. They sold licenses to OEM's. Also, the Windows computers I've bought since Windows 8 came out have had a license for Windows 8 (along with an install disc) but have come with Windows 7 pre-installed.
The key question is not how many of this or that MS is shipping but why and what direction the sales are going. Most companies and home users have a bevy of Windows only software that they are somewhat committed to. People also need to buy a new machine every now and then. These two facts mean that your average corporate or home consumer will buy their next machine without much thought and will buy a windows 8 machine. The more savvy buyer might even insist on getting Windows 7. But the average user, both corporate and home, are moving into a cloudy world where they need a browser as their primary software and an Office suite as a secondary. This still allows MS to have a slight grasp as MS Office is still mostly the standard.
But and this is a big but. Things like LibreOffice can suit many user's needs and if I were a student doing term papers I would use a combination of google drive and google docs. Docs so my stuff is everywhere and can't be lost and Drive so that if I loose connectivity I have it on my machine. This might seem like a small market but the students of today are the consumers of tomorrow.
Lastly many home consumers are skipping the whole home desktop/laptop all together. A larger screened phone is generally all they need for most of their needs. This also goes for corporate types. The average higher level manager / road warrior is fine with a tablet / BB combo or some other mobile technology.
Soon the only people really needing a Windows machine (as opposed to some agnostic OS that primarily serves up a browser) will be specialty users such as accountants. Many other power users will be fine with either a Mac or Linux.
Which then leads to the whole server market. Linux is pretty dominating. My personal experience is that the MS shops out there are hard core MS evangelists who don't mind buying and managing huge piles of licenses which is getting even harder with many larger companies going with internal cloud systems that can spool up 20/200/2000 new machines on a whim.
I don't think that Windows 8 is the problem. I don't think it is the Metro interface beyond the fact that some MBAs at MS probably had these great spreadsheets showing huge desktop app sales. MS is declining for many other reasons. Preinstalled Bloatware would be a big one. But the key question is why I should not be using Linux, Android, MacOS, QNX? What is it that MS offers me to come back? For some reason it just doesn't appeal to me to pay an extra $100 when I buy a $500 device just so that I can run Windows. I don't see why I would want to run servers that could get me sued if I don't manage the licensing. I can see why people might stay through inertia but that isn't a very good business model in the long term.
Man, I am disappointed. I sure hope Microsoft, in their mad rush to undo the damage they perceive, doesn't ruin the touch experience on the touch screen computers out there already.
From the article:"There’s a level of risk and creativity going on that would never have happened two years ago.”
Creativity is not forcing people to use an iPad interface on their desktops, a better word would be idiocy. Idiocy, as in forcing system admins to use an iPad interface on Windows Server 2012. Idiocy, as in having two taskbars, one on the bottom, and one auto-hiding on the right side.
These kinds of articles are supposed to make us feel better about Microsoft? I'd suggest not celebrating until they have actually DONE something. Lets see if they actually improve anything - there is a good chance they will make things even worse!
This isn't the first time they have screwed over their customers, and the sure as hell isn't the last.
1. As much as they need to re-think the whole Metro implementation for users without touchscreen hardware, from what I've read they are *NOT* bringing back the old desktop Start Menu, they are simply putting an icon in the familiar place to get to Metro. Metro is still the place where you will launch programs/apps from... and I will continue to bypass it altogether with Classic Shell on my desktop PC. I don't need a complete context change just to open a command prompt, control panel or start programs. Perhaps surprising to MS, I prefer to do my computing at a desk with a 24" non-touchscreen monitor, and I will not be replacing it anytime soon just so that I can bend forward and reach across the keyboard to smudge a hidden menu with my index finger.
2. As we all know, the 100 million licenses sold BS is just that. MS is conflating OEM licenses shipped with actual users actively purchasing and/or using Windows 8 software. They can pull this off because Windows is the de facto shipping OS on virtually all PC hardware. It is obviously to their advantage to maintain this sleight of hand, so don't expect them to get honest any time soon.
Every new PC worldwide ships with Windows 8 on it. Consumers don't really have a choice. They get Windows 8 whether they like it or not. Even Vista's numbers looked good, even though people hated it. And Windows 8 is far worse than Vista ever was. I like the desktop. I love Metro. The unhappy marriage of the two is exceptionally annoying.
I hope they bring back Aero. For all its other faults, there's nothing quite as disconcerting as the 'flatland' style (no bevels, shadows, lack of contrast between elements, and generally a white-washed look).
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
Saves time that way.
Old coke didn't come back. They created a third product called "Coke Classic" that was not in any way the same thing as "old coke," since Coke Classic is sweetened with High-Fructose Corn Syrup, whereas "old code" was sweetened with natural cane sugar.
"We fucked up."
Now, give us the option to *completely* remove any interjections from Metro (start screen, WinKey+tab, charms, network selection, search, probably a number of other elements I've forgotten), ie.: real-actual-computer-to-get-shit-done mode. Also get rid of that horrible, difficult-to-read low contrast color scheme and bring back the only good thing Vista brought us: Aero Glass.
Do these things and we might forgive you. Otherwise, fuck this shit, I'm going to Debian.
F2 still works on my uefi laptop. Don't know about if it still works with fast boot as I nuked my mswindows as soon as I got it and installed windows (X windows, thank you) on it instead with gnu-licious linux of the debian flavor.
100 million sold? Or 100 million packaged with laptops, PCs and tablets forced down the throats of unwitting users that definitely would rather have had windows 7 had they any clue?
The most hilarious part of this whole debacle on Microsofts part is that we recently decided to upgrade from WinXP to Win7 finally... and as part of that a few people said "hey, why don't we just go for Win8 while we're at it?" so they put together some focus groups of generally non-tech savvy employees to see how long it would take them to get a grasp on how to do their jobs using the new OS. One of the security guys in charge of the project is a big apple fan and argued we needed a control... and wanted to use OSX... management thought it wasn't such a bad idea, but of course, we're NOT switching to Apple any time soon so instead they used Redhat. Win7 was easiest for them to pick up of course... but Redhat beat Win8 by a country mile. There were many in test that never got Win8 to work for their jobs. I wasn't privy to all of the hurdles they found and what-not. But it's pretty staggering to think MS screwed up their UI so much that a bunch of our least talented salesmen were more capable of using Linux that it.
When I first turned on my new PC loaded with Windows 8, I was flabergasted by the Metro screen. I did not know what the hell to do, but after painstaking searches on Google I was able to cobble together a desktop system that meets my needs. Now I never even see the Metro screen except by accident.
All I can say is that this is the worst customer service fiasco by a major corporation in history, and is even more ridiculous since they planned and conspired to strong-arm their customers into some glitzy crap mode of computing which does not fit with efficient productivity work. As an example of the loonyness expressed by the creators, on the Power button 'Hibernate' is not one of the default choices. You have to dig into the system to find it. What a load of holy bullshit!
IMHO that's exactly what ASUS was doing with their netbooks that they were designing back when MS was pushing Vista down everyone's throats and there was not yet any sign that Win7 would be any better.
Classic shell http://www.classicshell.net/ is a free, open-source fix for Windows 8. It brings back the proper windows 7 or windows xp start button and menu. It allows you to boot straight to the desktop so you never see the metro interface, and it can disable all the 'hot-corners' mouse-over elements that might bring you back to the metro stuff. Essentially it allows you to get all the benefits of Windows 8 (faster bootup, great task-manager and improved desktop UI) without any of Microsoft's botched experiments.
I recently bought a Dell touchscreen all-in-one PC, which you'd think would be the ideal platform to use the Metro UI, but in fact I've completely disabled it, firstly because many other people use the computer and I don't want to have to explain to them how to use Windows, but also because the Windows App Store where you buy/download Metro apps is completely useless. I tried to install QQ messenger by clicking the link on the QQ website, and instead of opening the store at that app, it opens on the front page. Searching in the store for QQ brings up no useful results. I was almost tempted to install the Metro version of Skype instead of the desktop one, but the pages and pages of one star reviews convinced me otherwise.
I feel sorry for anyone who bought one of the budget Surface tablets that can only run the Metro UI. Windows 8 is great, once you turn off Metro and the giant start menu.
cokane.com
Metro Metro Metro! That's what the media is focusing on, but it's not the real reason Windows 8 failed.
W-8 failed because Microsoft thought they'd be able to screw their developers the way that Apple's been screwing iOS developers since day one. Going full walled-garden for the Metro UI while at the same time effectively forcing developers to abandon Silverlight and Flash due to concerns about long-term viability meant there really was no compelling reason for a developer to bother with Windows 8. My company, a manufacturer of population-based analytical software that runs on a massively-parallel database, basically abandoned Windows as a development platform. In the middle of a product cycle.
Those MSDN/Visual Studio/Team Foundation/etc. licenses will never happen. Now, at great expense and risk, we've decided to go down the HTML5+Javascript path for the front end. It sucks. It sucks so badly that there's not a person in the shop who doesn't want to abandon the project altogether. But at least it will be portable if it ever gets built. It'll take two years longer than it would have if Microsoft hadn't screwed us over, but that's the price of doing business I guess. (The JBOSS backend is painful too, but not to the degree that an HTML5/Javascript front-end is.)
Yet, all that could have been avoided if Microsoft hadn't hit the Greed button and tried to force the Metro UI down its developers' throats. We have no confidence in Microsoft EVER being a viable development platform again. Not when key components could be pulled out from under us just because they want to impose a UI tax.
And I know I'm not alone. I've heard the same story, read the same story, watched the same story unfold all over the internet.
Microsoft used to field the best damn development and application platform in the industry, hands down. It still does, actually. But unfortunately, I can't risk using it. And because of that fact, there's very little chance that I'll ever bother considering it in future efforts.
And THAT's why Windows 8 failed and any attempt to revive it will fail as well.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I automatically associate "Windows Blue" with "Blue Screen of Death". I literally can't help it, it's the first thing that pops into my mind.
More competition from the Linux world, along with the influx of users demanding polish, would be a wonderful thing.
And lets be clear, Linux / its ecosystem need a good deal of work.
Old coke didn't come back. They created a third product called "Coke Classic" that was not in any way the same thing as "old coke," since Coke Classic is sweetened with High-Fructose Corn Syrup, whereas "old code" was sweetened with natural cane sugar.
Bullshit.
We also don't know how many licenses Microsoft needs to break even for its Windows division. I'd suspect the vast majority of these are cheap OEM licenses, not corporate sales, as businesses are steering clear of Win8, so we're probably talking a couple dozen dollars of revenue per sale on average.
I'd be interested to know how much a couple billion dollars is compared to the Win8-related expenses Microsoft has had in pre-launch and continuing development, marketing, and support of the OS.
Jeremiah Cornelius posited:
Microsoft is misspelling things again.
It's spelled "Windows Blue", but pronounced "Windows Blew".
No, no, no.
There's nothing past tense about it.
Check out my novel.
Windows 8 is OK. What I find problematic about it is that the traditional desktop and Metro seem to clash with one another even though you can use them both simultaneously. On the outside you want to pick which environment you want to spend the most time in; if you want to stay in Metro, then use only Metro apps, but if you want to live in the Desktop, then you find yourself avoiding any Metro apps. It's just too hard to mix the two together.
Assuming, however, that you just want to use the Desktop all the time, Windows 8 is not that big of a deal. It boils down to the fact that they took away the start menu, and that apparently drives people nuts. Personally, I don't even like the start menu. The programs you use all the time end up being pinned to the task bar, and for the occasional other program, you just hit the Windows key and type in its name. It's really not hard, but people just don't figure this out. My uncle got a new Windows 8 laptop last week, and right when he got it I told him three or four times to use the Windows key and type in order to search for the program he wanted, and he *still* would just open the start screen with the mouse and then open "All Programs" and sit there reading all the entries in order to find the program he was looking for. A few days later he said, "You know, I realized I can just hit the Windows key to switch between the Desktop and the start screen."
I would consider Windows 8 to be an upgrade from 7, but people struggle with the interface changes. Windows 7 has a more "pure" UI experience, and it's what people expect.
Reading everything, it's actually Windows 9/Windows 8.1/Windows Blue/Windows 6.3. I kid you not. It is called all of those officially by MS.
http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/index.asp
This start menu blends well with Windows 8's theme, replicates all Windows 7 start menu features, and has options to boot to desktop and disable hot corners. Only caveat is that it does cost $5, but is probably the best polished Windows 8 start menu out there.
Windows 8NT4Me
Against my advice, my parents bought a Windows 8 machine so I've had a fair bit of chance to play with it and to hear from a couple of "typical" computer users what their experience with Windows 8 is like.
Everyone who has used that machine *hates* the start screen. While one would think you can "fit more" than with the start menu, in practice what you have is the ability to show or hide the sub-menus as groups of icons. Once you tell it to show stuff you actually *want* (like Games), the start screen rapidly becomes 2-3 physical screens wide. So now not only do you have to drag your mouse all over the place to reach the icons/tiles, you have to scroll the screen/menu to reach them.
My Dad is particularly frustrated with Windows 8. As far as he's concerned, nothing works right except Firefox, and even that ticks him off because he has to scroll all the way over to the right on the start screen to find it's icon.
My Mom is ticked off with the Metro interface on her card games. The "click top and drag down" metaphor for shutting down applets is not intuitive, and without a touch screen, it's also difficult to use. Mom has always had difficulty with "click and hold" aspects of applications because of her arthritis. Most of the time she just gives up because she can't hold the mouse button down long enough to drag it to the bottom of the screen.
Personally what I hate is that there is no actual "windowing" of Metro apps. Everything is full screen. I haven't worked with full screen apps since the days of the 80x24 green screen terminal. I need to be able to access multiple applications at the same time. And the flash from work screen/desktop to start menu literally gives me a headache (I get migraines regularly, and eye strain from this type of interface aggravates them -- I despise Gnome 3 for the exact same reason.)
Windows 8: Epic FAIL!
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Also the way MS volume and to a lesser extent OEM licensing generally works is that you buy the latest version and then use downgrade rights to get the version you really want. So sales of win8 licenses don't mean people are actually using them to run win8.
If a company has an old machine which is currently licensed for XP or Vista and wants to put win7 on it than afaict they will need to buy a win8 license for it. (one win8 license sold)
If a company buys a new machine from a vendor that doeesn't offer that machine with a win 7 pro license and wants to put winXP on it (because they aren't ready to migrate yet) then afaict they will also need to buy a win8 volume license for it since the standard OEM edition includes no downgrade rights at all and the PRO OEM edition only includes downgade rigths to vista. (two win8 licenses sold)
If a company buys a new machine from a vendor that doesn't offer that machinew ith a win 7 license and wants to put win 7 on it then they will buy it with win 8 pro and downgrade (one win8 license sold)
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
The problem is that powershell is in an awkward place between languages like perl/python and shell scripting.
The pipe might be simply the string you see, or it might be a stream of objects that are being formatted, and that reality is generally not clear at a glance. In bourne shell, it's pretty much always what you see is what you get (for better or for worse). Once understood, this *usually* provides the programmer more power when they test to determine what the stream will look like, but it's still inconsintent as to whether provided cmdlets support pipeline input or not, causing very distinct calling conventions to mix and match cmdlets that require pipeline input and cmdlets that cannot comprehend pipeline input.
Many scenarios might present your code either a single object or a list depending on circumstance. Select-Object for example will return the result as one object not in an array if one matches, but will return an array if multiple matches. This means code that assumes one result will suddenly be faced with an array, and code that assumes it will see an array to iterate will break when faced with only one value.
Because they want the user to be able to be fast and loose with quoting, some odd behaviors creep in there. A string suddenly becomes an array because it had a , in it, and the user that had been typing things free form suddenly results in a vastly different argument being passed into your commandlet.
It's interesting you should mention the codesigning. It causes some headaches without a lot of meaningful protection (e.g. a .cmd script is allowed to run without consideration, and that .cmd can say 'powershell set-executionpolicy bypass' and then jump to ps1 file if it really wanted).
Process directives in functions are unable to effectively stop execution of the function. 'return' just iterates to next hop, and 'break' will escape all the way to the parent loop of function or exit the whole script if no loop.
There's all sorts of weirdness in powershell.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.